Biediger et al v. Quinnipiac Univ

Filing 84

TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings held on 5/12/09 before Judge Stefan R. Underhill. Court Reporter: Susan E. Catucci. Type of Hearing: Preliminary Injunction hearing (Part 2). NOTICE RE REDACTION OF TRANSCRIPTS: The parties have seven (7) calendar days to file with the Court a Notice of Intent to Request Redaction of this transcript. If no such Notice is filed, the transcript will be made remotely electronically available to the public without redaction after 90 calendar days. The policy is located on our website at Redaction Request due 10/27/2009. Redacted Transcript Deadline set for 11/6/2009. Release of Transcript Restriction set for 1/4/2010. (Catucci, S.)

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352 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 quick. MS. GAMBARDELLA: THE COURT: May I proceed, Your Honor? Please. That was faster than you said MS. GAMBARDELLA: it was going to be. THE COURT: I was hoping it was going to be MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. That's speedy. Okay. Jack, I think where we left off was we were moving from the atmosphere in '07-'08 when you introduced roster management amongst the coaches and the goals, and let's now go to '08 and '09. All right? Can you describe to the court the level of commitment -- strike that. Can you describe to the court the change that you observed in the level of commitment, if any, amongst the coaches with respect to roster management moving into 2008, 2009? A. Like an implementation of roster management, now we're dealing with phase two of, shall we say, enforcing it and taking out a lot of the gray area of it. So as we looked at '07-'08, clearly there was some things that should not happen again. In '08-'09 it's better. Keeping in mind that add and deletes will always occur. Q. Okay. 353 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. And so -In fact, returning to Exhibit 13, let's go to the form that is bate stamped 0122 and 0123 which is the 2008-'09 change in status list. All right. Now, we still see add, deletes, withdrew on this list, correct? A. Q. Correct. And just briefly, again, would the types of reasons for adds and deletions that you gave to the judge as examples in your career remain true for '08 and '09? A. Q. Yes. All right. Do the change in status list necessarily allow you to calculate the total number of athletic participation opportunities on any given team for this academic year? A. Q. A. You have to run that one by me again. These forms are specifically to reflect what? This will reflect the squad lists for the NCAA and those that have been added or deleted. Q. Okay. And so, you testified that you saw a level of commitment evolve for the better in '08 and 09, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Have you discussed roster management with coaches for the upcoming year? 354 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. In what context did you have that discussion? And I don't -- I'm not going to ask you what they said to you; I'm specifically focusing on what you said to them. A. Clearly, as the unfortunate things happened on March 4th, roster management, adherence to gender equity, Title IX became even a higher priority, and I think the coaches, as soon as last Wednesday, we discussed roster management and its implementation next year. getting numbers from me shortly. have happened. They will be They know that things They They know of our commitment to it. know things could change, so I think they know what the roster management numbers were last year. I have told them there could be some tweaking of those numbers up or down based on a few things and then I'll be giving them those numbers soon. Q. Is one of the few things that could end up resulting in a tweak the actual number of students who arrive on campus? A. It could be a factor, and clearly because of this situation, because of everybody in college admissions is wondering what their population is going to be next September, so -Q. A. Or next term? -- a lot could happen. 355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right. And did you in your experience witness, and just let me briefly say in '07-'08 we had a few coaches with adds/deletes that counsel pointed out for you before the court. Did you witness the same kind of phenomenon on '08-'09? A. Q. No. Okay. I mean there are add/deletes for other reasons, correct? A. Q. And there should be. All right. Now, do you have any reason, based on anything you've observed or heard, to believe that Quinnipiac will be unable to achieve the proportionality that it has represented it will achieve for next year? A. Q. A. No. And on what do you base that level of confidence? Well, as we went through this, the unfortunate process of dropping sports, prong one became a very, very important criteria. And we have sort of added some sports, we deleted two mens sports, we've tweaked and/or improved roster management. And we think -- and again, none of this you say is an exact science but we think our commitment from the gender equity, our commitment from pronge one has gone from somewhere around 54, 55 percent all the way to 63 percent. a significant commitment. It's a significant jump. It's 356 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But we don't know what the class will be in the Fall, but clearly to improve your proportionality for women by almost ten percent is significant and everybody's aware of that number, from university president to the coaches. Q. But Quinnipiac didn't just wake up a couple weeks ago and say, okay, now we're going to do proportionality? A. Q. No. Okay. So can you tell me why proportionality has been a goal? A. Well, you can go back to the certification process. It was clearly the planned improvement was to increase women's opportunities by four to seven percent long before 2008, 2009. When there was discussion of dropping sports, I made an effort and succeeded in getting all of the university's administration aware of our commitment to gender equity and the need for the prong one to be met. Q. But that's been a goal that Quinnipiac has been articulating it would like to achieve starting before March 4th of this year? A. Q. Absolutely. Okay. Now, I just want to briefly touch on the documents that were marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 28 -no, Exhibit 28. Which, for the record, are the website rosters for men's cross country track, women's cross country track, it looks like '08 rosters. And that was 357 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Number 28, Jack. A. Q. Got it. Now, counsel asked you a few questions about updating this website, and your answer was we do the best we can, correct? A. Q. Correct. With respect to calculation of actual athletic participation, athletic participants, how reliable are the on line rosters? A. Again, the rosters, as we said in deposition, are a media tool to be sure that everybody that is involved with the program is on the site. Q. Did you say -- I'm sorry, did you say a media tool or immediate tool? A. Q. A. Media, publicity. Thank you. So that those people are there -- for example, you know, to talk about add/delete again, there may be people added and deleted for a variety of reasons, injury, academics, discipline, that might be deleted from the official roster but will remain on the website. Q. Why would they remain on the website if they were deleted from the official roster? A. Because they are still essentially a part of the program in, say, managers, eligible athletes, students 358 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that were a fifth year eligibility, red shirts. There are The a wide variety of kids who are part of the program. parents would like to see their names there. The coaches there, the student athletes want to see their names there. You click on the name and you get a nice commentary with their photos and bios. So it's a marketing term. When I say the need to be accurate, it's true, and that's more is the name spelled right, is the bio up to date, is the home town right, Mom's and Dad's name spelled right; those kinds of things that, you know, all websites should be. Q. Now, I'd like to go to -- well, we have it as Defendant's A but I think plaintiffs marked it already as three. It's the Janet Judge letter. It is Plaintiff's 3, Your Honor. All right, Jack, tell me when you're there. A. Q. I'm there. Are you there? Page two of Janet Judge's letter Can you where you were asked about this chart yesterday. please explain to the court how you arrived at the numbers that are reflected on this chart? A. Well, your first starting point is the previous year and the original document that I've been using along with my senior staff and sent to the university senior staff had two sets of data. One was the '08-'09 rosters and 359 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 participation numbers, and then obviously men's golf, men's outdoor track, women's volleyball were dropped, we then needed to get to our number. So the starting point For example, for this document was the '08-'09 numbers. starting at the top, basketball team was 15 for men, 15 for women, and that's what we started with. Q. And, by the way, just season of eligibility, you testified that as long as one competition, even one competition is played, I mean -- you said 20 percent of the season, if they play that, have they exhausted their season of eligibility? A. Different sports, different little nuances to it, but they all have a criteria -Q. A. Got it. -- of once you reach a certain level of competition you've exhausted your eligibility. Q. All right. Now, this chart that's represented by Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 on page two, that is based on the projected male/female enrollment for academic year '09-'10, correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. What are the various things in your experience -- strike that. Is that based on -- what is that based on, the projected enrollment? At this point in time how can 360 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Quinnipiac project enrollment? that? A. What's the best way to do As I say, the bench mark for this was the '07-'08 rosters and on that same spread sheet there was EADA criteria I included in it. That had 61.7 percent which was the female enrollment at Quinnipiac in '07-'08 that we reported to the EADA. So that 61.7 is a number that we We don't have, we have documented, it's been reported. know what '09-'10's proportionality will be. Q. Right. But 63 percent is based on what? The projection in this chart? A. Q. A. Q. This is the athletic chart. Understood. Okay. But it's based on an understanding of 63 percent possible enrollment of females; gender breakdown is 37.08 males and 62.92 percent -A. Q. In the athletic department. -- in the athletic department. Page one, I'm sorry. And the paragraph that starts the bigger paragraph, "As a result." A. Q. Okay. The letter says that "As detailed below, Quinnipiac University will have approximately 165 male and 280 female atheletes in '09-'10;" do you see that? 361 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. Is that based on acceptance letters that we knew -- that went out by mid April? A. Well, again, this is a two part question. Based on our projections in '09-'10, we'll have 165 male athletes and 280 female athletes. number. That's not the University's So basically saying it would be 37, 62 for the athletic department proportional numbers. Q. A. Proportional to undergraduate enrollment? Well, it's proportional to the Athletic Department. It's 37, 63 within the pool of current athletes. Q. A. What's your understanding of prong one? Prong one is adherence to the University's proportional male and female numbers. Q. So, the male/female athletic participation opportunities have to be proportional to what? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. To the University's male and females on campus. Got it, okay. I think we're there -That's right, all right. I'm fine. So, the projection of the undergraduate population as represented in this letter is the projection of the undergraduate total population, correct? A. Correct. 362 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Now, after acceptance letters go out, when are deposits due for '09-'10? A. Q. They were May 1st. Okay. All right. In your experience, does everybody, every student who puts down a deposit end up coming to school in September? A. Q. A. Not necessarily. Why would that be? Oh, students will deposit at two or three different schools based on scholarship possibility, based on financial aid, based on not just not being sure. So, most deposits are 2- to $500 and parents and students will sometimes throw their deposits in two or three different places. Q. So, out of all the acceptance letters that go out, does every student who gets an acceptance letter put down a deposit? A. Q. Not necessarily. And does every student who puts down a deposit end up coming to school in September? A. Q. Not necessarily. All right. So, if anything, 63 percent projected female undergraduate enrollment was based on the highest possible number of females that could come to school next year, correct? 363 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: BY THE WITNESS: A. Q. Yes. It's yes. Objection, Your Honor. Leading. Well, it is. I'll allow it. Now, can you tell us your understanding of Not for the whole day. Just an NCAA guidelines? overview. Let's start this way. guidelines? A. Wow. What is the purpose of NCAA Toughest question of the day. I've seen a lot of publicity on some of that stuff lately, but the NCAA association is based on -- the rules that are there are rules implemented and designed by us as members, athletic directors and coaches, and over the span of time, most of it has involved recruiting, playing, practicing and scholarships, travel, championships. It's a 500 page document that encompasses a lot about how we manage our institution. The self study that you saw earlier is pretty much nothing missing. Q. A. What are championship travel squad sizes? The NCAA, through the fortunate financial agreement they have with CBS television, is able to pay for student athletics that qualify for the NCAA championship. So, for example, in this case, if the basketball team wins our league, we obtain a berth to the NCAA tournament, 364 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the NCAA pays our way, okay? But in the same they do for If volleyball, they do for track, they do all the sports. you make the NCAA tournament, you're reimbursed by the NCAA. On many occasions they buy the plane tickets in advance to go. That being said, the NCAA, in addition to that, has a championship policy. How many athletes can you bring, how many administrators, in some cases, how many are in the pep band and all other support people. So, their travel squad size in the championship handbook has been used by a lot of us as what they think is an acceptable amount of people, athletes, to travel to a championship game. Q. And that was going to be my next question. Let me ask you this. Do championship travel squad sizes differ from just normal average squad sizes for NCAA purposes? A. Q. A. Yes. And how, and why is it that they would differ? I'm just going to pick out -- well, there's -- again, just to be specific here, there's what they call the travel party, and I'm just going to use, I'll use ice hockey just as an example. reimbursed by the NCAA. Their travel party, that gets You're allowed to bring 35 They will people, for example, and that's in the book. 365 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reimburse Quinnipiac for 35 individuals, planes, lodging, meals. There's also a policy in the book that only 21 members of that hockey team can dress for the game. So there's 35 travel, 21 dress, and it's up to Quinnipiac. So, from 21 to 35, who are those people going to be? Q. A. Q. So you have discretion there. Correct. And so, do you know what the championship travel squad sizes were for softball in '08 under NCAA guidelines? A. Why do I think -- I don't -- I did look this up I'm drawing a blank. I have it. And the projected roster size for women's But it's probably 25? recently. I'm not sure. Q. All right. softball for Quinnipiac is -- I'm going back to the chart. Looks like 22 for women's softball. Exhibit 3. THE COURT: Yes, I see it. All right, you got it. You can go back to MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. Now, there was some testimony -- you were here for Ms. Sparks' testimony, correct? A. Q. Yes. And she was asked a question about NCAA certification 366 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and she testified she's NCAA certified. mean? A. What does that Well, she passed a test and it's a requirement of the NCAA that before athletes are allowed to recruited off campus, you need to pass a certification exam. Q. How many of Quinnipiac's coaches are required to obtain that certification? A. Q. A. Q. Everybody. So that wasn't unique to Ms. Sparks? No. You heard Ms. Sparks' testimony about indoor/outdoor track at Quinnipiac, and she gave some testimony about sprints and -- I can't read my own writing, but it might be relays? A. Q. A. Q. to? A. Quinnipiac does have sprinters on their men's and This is a Sprint and field events. Thank you. No. Tell me what was inaccurate about what she testified All right. Was she correct? women's track team, indoor and outdoor. subjective decision what people think sprints are but I think 200-meters is a sprint. Q. A. Okay. What's your experience with track, by the way? Coached at Boston College track and field for ten 367 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 years. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Was your son on one of the track teams that got cut? Yes. Which one? Men's outdoor track team -- or which son? How many sons do you have? I have four. That participate in athletics? I have four. Two of them participated in outdoor track. Q. Okay, and so they are no longer going to have an outdoor track team at Quinnipiac, correct? A. Q. One has graduated, one is graduating, so -All right. And what was the other men's sport that was eliminated? A. Q. Golf. Okay. With respect to indoor track, outdoor track and cross country track, I want to go to that specifically and ask you first, Jack, why does Quinnipiac on its roster for next year count those sports separately? A. Because the NCAA has three separate championships for men's cross country, for men's indoor track and for men's outdoor track. The EADA reporting, which has always been a moveable beast at times, some reports require that we input the data separately of the three sports and other 368 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reports has what they refer to as all track combined. we consider them three sports. The NCAA has a minimum So that you must have 14 sports to be Division I, and there are many schools in this country who have 14 sports using the three tracks separately. So if they were to combine the tracks, they would not meet Division I standards and couldn't be Division I. So, in my lifetime, cross country, indoor track and outdoor track are three separate sports. Q. There was an expert called in this case, you're aware of that, correct? A. Q. Yes. And she's not here and the Judge is going to deal with the testimony separately, but I'm going to ask you some questions. I'm going to ask you to respond to some of the testimony by the expert on indoor, outdoor and cross country track counting, okay? The expert testified that there were years that Quinnipiac counted them once and years they counted them more than once. A. Why would that be? To my knowledge, again, if you were to go through all these EADA years, there were years when the EADA report and, again, up to about 2002 it was one report that we submitted to the NCAA. After 2002, 2003, there was a report submitted to the NCAA and there was a report 369 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 submitted to the Department of Education. Without being exact, one of those two reports recorded individuals by the three sports and the other one recorded all track combined as a referred term. But to be Division I, we are actually reimbursed by the NCAA by the number of sports that you sponsor, and we are reimbursed by having three separate tracks for men and three separate tracks for women. Q. The expert testified that based on the website rosters, that the participants in those three sports, for example, the participants on the outdoor track team really aren't losing any opportunities because they are going to be able to do the same amount of competitions and the same things on an indoor track team or a cross country track team. A. What is your response to that? I wish she was in the room with me when I told those But the answer to the kids they no longer have a sport. question is it's not true. There's many events in outdoor track that cannot be participated in indoor track. Q. A. Can you give the judge an example? Ten thousand -THE COURT: Javelin. Well, that's a fair point. Javelin, discus, hammer So THE WITNESS: Javelin -- you're pretty good. are the field events but we don't have field events. 370 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specifically for running events, ten thousand meters, steeple chase, 400-meters, we do not sponsor an indoor track. And likewise, there's events in indoor track that are not sponsored in outdoor track. BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. She also testified, looking at the website, and I don't profess to know where she got it from, but she says you have the very same kids doing all three things; they are all the same kids. A. Your response to that, Jack? Just like other sports, Traditional and That's true and that's good. one sport can be for the entire year. nontraditional seasons of all sports, the year of athletics is always a year round thing so the athletes have an opportunity to play in three different events that are counted by the NCAA, counted by the Department of Ed and they are counted by everybody else. Q. Well, she says the NCAA requires one combined scholarship number for cross country and/or indoor/outdoor; it treats it as one team. to that? A. The response is that the reporting that we do Your response accounts for the duplicated or unduplicated athletes scholarships, it's all recorded in the track and uniqueness of tracks. It has always been there and it's properly recorded by the two organizations that ask us the 371 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 information, Department of Ed and the NCAA. Q. Now, she then testifies and admits that "I think in a case by case analysis, a school could justify cross country being a separate sport but in my looking at this Quinnipiac situation, I don't think there's any question that these three sports, here is a distance built cross country, indoor and outdoor track team. They don't care about throwing, they don't care about sprints, they are just doing distances." A. What's your response to that? We do just distances and we do extremely well at it. Just like Quinnipiac only has certain majors, we only have certain events in track and field and we're excellent at both. Q. A. Q. What about sprints? We have some sprints. Okay. I want to point your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 10. MS. GAMBARDELLA: exhibits overlap. Your Honor, some of these I'm not going to -- I mean I don't know if you want me to go through the exercise of marking them as one of ours either. THE COURT: ones we worked with. MS. GAMBARDELLA: Great. It's easier for me if you use the 372 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. Plaintiff's 10. The first page was the only one, I think, submitted, Judge. We've already identified what this chart is, just the first page, Jack. And what is represented by the right hand column which starts with year and then under it, you see archery, badminton and so forth. column represent? A. Q. A. The year column? Yes, yes, yes, the year column. That's the series of years that these reports have What does that been accumulated by the NCAA since they started doing this. Q. Are indoor/outdoor and cross country track listed separately on this chart? A. Yes, because they have separate championships. MR. ORLEANS: Excuse me. Just for the record, according to my notes, both pages of Exhibit 10 -MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: I stand corrected. It's Exhibit -- are in evidence. 8 that's only the first -MS. GAMBARDELLA: Judge. Thank you. I stand corrected, I'm only looking at 10. MR. ORLEANS: Okay. 373 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. On the second page of Exhibit 10, the sports That is the average squad size, NCAA men's continue. teams. The first page was women's, the second page is men, and are those three sports listed separately? A. A. Q. Yes, they are. Actually -- yes, they are. Now, the expert testified also -- sorry, Judge. "Quinnipiac's budget for these sports is all one budget for all three." A. Q. Do you have a response to that? They are three separate budgets. Okay. I don't need to do this because it's the same exact -- can you just briefly describe the different competitions that don't overlap for those three sports at Quinnipiac? A. Q. A. Q. A. I'm not sure what you mean by "don't overlap." Do they have different seasons? Yes. What are the three seasons? Fall season, which basically goes -- the championship And then the indoor track seasons ends at Thanksgiving. season starts December 1st and goes to their championship. Indoor track is the second week of March and then following that, they start and their championship will be June 1st, so it's there's really no overlap. 374 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: So, just to be clear, it's cross country in the Fall, indoor track in the Winter, outdoor track in the Spring? THE WITNESS: Yes. All right. MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. Are there events in, in outdoor track, let's take the program that was eliminated, that don't exist in the other two sports? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Which ones? According to the NCAA, there's a bunch of them and -Let's talk about Quinnipiac. Okay. Again, as I just mentioned, the 400 meters, the ten thousand meter run, the steeple chase are three that just jump out. There's the sprinters that have done the 200 but there is a 200 indoors but, again, a half a lap outdoors and full lap indoors, they are really two different standards. it's a lot different. So, I think in the events that Quinnipiac has, there's three distinct events in the 400-meter hurdles, the ten thousand and the steeple chase, as well as the 200 and the 400 indoors and the indoor laps -- outdoors it's one lap. I would defer the argument whether they are They don't run as fast indoors so 375 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 different but they could be different. But for Quinnipiac's sake, there are three distinct events outdoor track. Q. A. Q. I suppose your son wasn't all that happy with you? I don't think I can say what he told me in this room. Okay. So you went home and dealt with some disappointment as well? A. Q. Yes. And possible some profanity, I would guess. I'll withdraw that question. The expert also, in opining that your roster numbers projected for next year were unrealistic, said the following. She looked at your projected roster for When I baseball and she said that 25 was unrealistic. pointed out to her it was only two numbers off from last year's, she said, "Well, I think 27 was unrealistic, too. I feel there's pressure on baseball to have a higher number." So, let's talk about whether or not you agree that your roster numbers are unrealistic. A. They certainly -- like the budgets that were just We had a game on this reduced by ten percent, it's tight. weekend. There were 27 people in uniform, 25 -- which is probably not something that the coach is happy with -- and if it goes to 25, it's going to be tighter, particularly 376 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in our -- and again using baseball as an example, when pitchers are incredibly important and you play a four game series on Friday, two Saturday and one Sunday, things can get really jammed up with the roster. 25 -- is it doable? Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. So I would say that No. Is it satisfactory? No, but the roster is committed to 25 spots? Correct. And they were committed to 27 last year, correct? That is correct. When was the most recent men's baseball game on campus? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Last weekend. Did you go and count the players in uniform? I did. How many were there? Twenty-seven. Now, the expert also, looking at the NCAA self study that has been talked about as well, says that Quinnipiac misunderstands prong two. And when I asked her what she meant, she says that "Quinnipiac believes that we're complying with ongoing expansion solely with dollars." And then I say to her, well, Quinnipiac talked about sports that have been added and also dollars, correct? She says, "No, it's only about expansion in scholarship dollars." 377 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. What's your response to that? I have great respect for the expert but I don't agree. Q. A. Tell me why you don't agree. It's about history of program expansion, and the first and foremost way to do that, and this is why proportions are -- when you add a team and you add an athlete, the ripple effect of that is you will be adding dollars, you'll be adding scholarships, you'll be adding practice space, you'll be adding athletic training and you'll be adding sports information. So by adding an opportunity for one individual or adding a new team, you are adding support. So my question -- my answer to that is when you add women's sports, as we've done, along with that, and clearly the budget history shows, the dollars, scholarships, space, administrative support has also increased. But the most important thing to do here is to add a sport and then the support is falling in line. Q. Is Quinnipiac suggesting in its self study -- and I'm confining myself to the excerpts that were already admitted -- was Quinnipiac suggesting in its self study that it would meet prong two simply because dollars went up? A. No. 378 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now, I want to revisit the decision-making process which ended up getting us where we are with the specific sports programs being eliminated, Jack, okay? THE COURT: Let me interrupt, because here's the I have actually a luncheon scheduling issues I've got. engagement that started a few minutes ago which I probably need to get to. What I'd like to do is hold lunch for 45 I have a 2:00 o'clock minutes, come back at 1:15. argument next door which is likely to be at least half an hour, and then I need to leave today at 4:30. So it's not clear to me that you are -- that you're going to finish. MS. GAMBARDELLA: I have about 40 to 45 minutes left, if we keep going the way we're going. THE COURT: Okay. We've got to sort out how and when I see the expert testimony and then I understand the plaintiff's case is finished at that point. MR. ORLEANS: We do intend to renew our offer of Germaine Fairchild, the softball coach. THE COURT: Okay, we'll take that up. I assume we would take that up. I have tomorrow morning. Sure. MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: Okay. MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: Sure. It would be wonderful if we could So I don't finish the evidence by tomorrow lunchtime. 379 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know how that works for everybody but -MR. ORLEANS: It's fine. Our witnesses should be fairly MS. GAMBARDELLA: swift. MR. ORLEANS: I think we can do it. Tracey is going to be -- I She's going to be here MS. GAMBARDELLA: mean a lot of it has been covered. just for pieces. You can imagine which pieces. Right. And then the competitive cheer MR. ORLEANS: MS. GAMBARDELLA: coach, half hour, 35 minutes? MR. ORLEANS: And my cross of her is likely to I think we have a very good I apologize be around that long as well. shot at being done by noon tomorrow, Judge. it's been taking so longer than we thought. MS. GAMBARDELLA: And if the additional coaches are put on, I want my two others. THE COURT: I understand. They should be, I'm hoping, MS. GAMBARDELLA: short. THE COURT: until 1:15. Well, in any event, let's recess now We'll have 45 minutes at that point and then I will be back as quickly as I can and see where we can go. Thank you all. We'll stand in recess. Thank you. MR. ORLEANS:

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