Biediger et al v. Quinnipiac Univ

Filing 86

TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings held on 5/12/09 before Judge Stefan R. Underhill. Court Reporter: Susan E. Catucci. Type of Hearing: Preliminary Injunction Hearing (Part 4). NOTICE RE REDACTION OF TRANSCRIPTS: The parties have seven (7) calendar days to file with the Court a Notice of Intent to Request Redaction of this transcript. If no such Notice is filed, the transcript will be made remotely electronically available to the public without redaction after 90 calendar days. The policy is located on our website at Redaction Request due 10/27/2009. Redacted Transcript Deadline set for 11/6/2009. Release of Transcript Restriction set for 1/4/2010. (Catucci, S.)

Download PDF
408 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. GAMBARDELLA: Your Honor, this is the It's Mary Ann witness we'll be taking out of order. Powers. THE COURT: your right hand. MARY ANN P O W E R S, Please remain standing and raise called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been duly sworn by the Court, testified as follows: THE COURT: Thank you, please be seated. Your Honor, we just would like MS. GAMBARDELLA: to show a video of a competitive cheer competition performed by Quinnipiac. It is one minute and 50 seconds, it's Exhibit M and there's no objection, correct? MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: That is correct. That's fine. All right. MS. GAMBARDELLA: identify it for the record. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. A. And then I'll have the witness Ms. Powers, what are we about to see? You're about to see Quinnipiac's cheerleaders competing down at the Nationals, Datona, Florida District. This is the final stage. make finals. Q. Okay. You have to be in the top ten to 409 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. So, this was the final stage, day two at the preliminary rounds. MS. GAMBARDELLA: judge a screen, please? MR. ORLEANS: witness's shoulder? MS. GAMBARDELLA: THE WITNESS: from the beginning. (Videotape played.) MR. BARDAVID: THE WITNESS: That's it, right? That's it. Thank you, Your Honor. No, fine. Let's all do that. Do you mind if I watch it over the Jonathan, would you give the You should probably start that MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. All right. Before we get into more specifics about that particular performance, Ms. Powers, can you just explain to the court who you are? A. I am Mary Powers. I have been the head coach of Quinnipiac University Cheerleading for, just finished my 11th season. Q. All right. And can you just briefly describe your experience with cheerleading? A. Q. A. I cheered since -- do I have to go back that far? As a coach. As a coach, I've coached since 1992. I started 410 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 coaching Pop Warner kids and moved to Allstar programs which are independent gyms in the country that develop, compete only cheerleaders, and then moved to Quinnipiac University. Q. A. When did you join Quinnipiac? 1998 or, actually Quinnipiac College at the time, not University. Q. Right. And have you been coach of the cheer team ever since 1998? A. Q. Yes, I have. All right. Can you describe briefly for the court what it is we just saw again? A. What you just saw was our team competing at College It's really the finale, the We typically compete several Nationals in Datona. highlight to our season. times throughout the season as well as cheer for women's, men's basketball games. What you just saw is a routine that is -- the coaches, we have about two minutes 15 seconds to add in various elements of, various elements that we're scored on. Standing tumbling, running tumbling, partners stunts, pyramids, basket tosses, jumps, dance and choreography. Those elements are all on a grid. For instance, several of our kids are, in fact, that come to us are level seven, eight and nine gymnasts, which is pretty high 411 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 level for gymnasts, for persons who have participated in gymnastics their whole life. For instance, in that routine when we're looking at the tumbling portion of this routine, we want to look for the high score on that score sheet on the grid. nine to 11. It's from The more of my kids that are executing layouts and pulls, the higher our score is going to be. The same with standard tumbling, they will -- if we execute a team with handsprings we would score between a seven to nine, if they were perfect. If they were teams standing tucks, which is a no handed back flip, it's on the nine to 11 range. And so, what we do all year long is we train our skills. Some of our kids I think we started on this year with, out of our 30 kids we started with about 14 standing tucks and by the time we competed in our final competition, we had, we took the floor with 17 standing tucks. So we are training their gymnastics skills all year long. The other thing you saw in that video were partner opportunities. Q. A. Partner opportunities? Partner opportunities, which is there's four positions on our team, a main base, a support base, a back spot and a flyer. Every single one of those positions is 412 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conditioned with spring training according to what they are going to be doing in partner stunting, and there's grips and things they use to elevate that flyer in the air, keep them in the air, catch -Q. If you could slow down -- I was tired after the video. A. Okay, we have partners. The partners opportunities is one of the elements, one of the elements in a competition routine. partner stunt group. And there's four girls involved in a We have a fox trot. Generally the tallest, tallest member of the group because she has to be able to reach the angle of the flyer when she's elevated full out in the routine. We have a main base. She is usually a shorter one of our bases, has to process a lot of upper body strength, good leg strength. And a support base and then a flyer. Our fliers usually are, they don't necessarily have to be small, they just have to be able to hold their weight up in the air, have good core middle and be very, very flexible, because we ask them to execute certain body positions in the air, much like you would see, probably you could see in ice skating, something you'd see an ice skater do. Actually a lot of elements in cheerleading are So we would have four derivatives of ice skating. positions. 413 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What about gymnastics; are there elements -- you mentioned gymnastics. A. Gymnastics, there's several things that we score on a We score on standing tumbling, which is score sheet. just standing there and executing, whether a back hand spring, is a hand spring when you go backwards, you're hitting the ground first with your hands when you rotate backwards. A standing tuck, you don't. You just flip. You go straight and you flip and tuck. Q. A. All right. That's standing. And then there's running tumbling which is typically what you would see in an Olympic event when you watch floor exercise? That's what our girls are trained in, that sort of tumbling, which is back hand springs, falls, layouts, punch fronts, what you see on a gymnastics floor. What you see when you see the floor. It's not being on that bar, okay? Q. And we didn't just look at sideline cheering competition, did we? A. Q. No. What is the difference between sideline cheer and competitive cheer? A. Well, sideline cheer is I think what we all know you see cheerleaders do at games when they supporting the people that they are there cheering for, whether it's 414 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 basketball, football. It's simply you use signs, use of poms, the calling of chants and cheers to inspire the audience to call back and be involved. man on the bench, per se. Become the sixth You're leading the crowd. Competitive cheer is you are going for your own score within your own right based on six to eight elements on a score sheet that have been finetuned and finely honed and choreographed and the skills have been worked on during practice sessions all year long. Q. Can you describe briefly for the court the activities in which the current Quinnipiac cheer team -- let's just take current now, not elevation to varsity level, okay? A. Q. Okay. The current activities in which they participate which you could categorize as competitive cheer activities? A. That would be when they go to a competition and they compete against at least one or several other teams. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. And they have been doing that, correct? For ten years. For ten years, so during your tenure -Well -Go ahead. The first year I was there when I asked Jack if I was going to be allowed to compete them, he told me, no, their 415 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 main mission was to support Quinnipiac athletics and the girls who had already come from several all star programs at that time had said, Coach, can't you see if you can enter us in at least one competition? And I said that's not what our athletic director is looking to at this point in time. And they said, well, can at least we show some Can you put together a And I said of those elements at a game? routine that we would be able to do at a game? sure. And Jack had happened to walk into that practice before one of our final tournament games that year and he saw the girls working on a routine and he saw them actually doing a routine and he said to me what are you doing? And I said they are doing a competitive cheer And he said is there anywhere you can use it? I routine. said we're going to do it at a basketball game and he goes But is there anywhere else you can use it? told you when you hired me -Q. A. Q. A. Compete? -- compete. And so how has that changed over the years? He said would you able to compete any time soon? And I said, Like I I said as a matter of fact on Saturday, the University of New Hampshire and Central Connecticut and Sacred Heart and Southern Connecticut will be completing up at Southern Connecticut's gym. And he said is it too late to enter? 416 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I said no. Q. A. Q. So how far back are going with this conversation? 1998. 1998, okay. So as the years have progressed, strike that. The last couple of years, on average, how many competitive cheer competitions have the Quinnipiac team participated in? A. I would say at the very least three, at the very most, including nationals, six. Q. A. Okay. And that's because we would, we've had -- our main mission has been to be present for men's and women's basketball games first, including tournament play. And so several of the competitions fell on the dates that there would be compete dates and so we were -- we went to sideline cheer for basketball before we competed. Q. And how, in your understanding how will that change at the varsity level elevation? A. My understanding is that we will compete within our own right and that we will not be cheering at all, sideline cheering at all for Quinnipiac male or woman's basketball, men or women's basketball, but there will be another team developed for that and that our main goal will be to compete. 417 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right. With respect to the competitive cheer competitions in which the students have already been participating, what are some of the institutions against which they've been competing, if you can name some for the court? A. Last April we -- on April 9th of this past year, at Datona at the college nationals, we came in sixth in the country. First place was Louisville, University of Second place was University of Maryland. Fourth place was Louisville. Third place was North Carolina State. University of South Carolina. of New Hampshire. Fifth place was University Seventh Sixth place was Quinnipiac. place was University of Massachusetts. Eighth place was University of Pittsburgh, Penn State, University of Florida, University of Illinois, Providence, and about six others did not make the finals. Q. Do you know which of those universities, if you know, have their competitive cheer team as varsity level? A. At varsity level defined by -- well, there's two ways of defining it by the athletic departments. Q. A. Let's start with their athletic departments. Currently I know that the University of Maryland is University of Oregon, Fairmont, which is a compete only. Division II school, Morgan, Fall State, Plymouth State and that's what I know to date as far as -- 418 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Got it. -- varsity status. If you can look at -- just want to make sure you have the right notebook -- Defendant's Exhibit H, to which there's no objection, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. All right. MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. Can you tell me what is represented by Defendant's Exhibit 8, that document? A. Okay. This is the roster of all the teams that competed down at College Nationals and on the preliminary round hoping to make it to finals. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Is Quinnipiac on here? Yes, we are. Okay. Can you -- We are on the second page, fifth down at 156. Thank you. We're all girl Division I. Okay. Can you go to Defendant's Exhibit J? There are tabs there, Mary Ann. A. Yes. MS. GAMBARDELLA: no objection to -- oh, no. MR. ORLEANS: I think this has an objection. Your Honor, I believe there's 419 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hearsay. MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. There is an objection. Just let me ask the witness first what is represented by Exhibit J. A. Let me make sure I'm looking at the right one. Was this the magazine? Q. It's the magazine article. If you can just tell us not what's in it but what it is, just identify it? A. It's an article written about Quinnipiac's competitive cheer after our performance in Datona in 2008. Q. All right. MS. GAMBARDELLA: admission. Your Honor, we move the There's been a claim in this case that this team doesn't exist in terms of competitive cheer and this is media recognition that we're providing a sample of. MR. ORLEANS: Your Honor, the objection is The author appears to be a Jennifer Rene Smith. The article contains Obviously I can't examine exam her. statements from a member of the team at that time; she's not here in court to be examined. MS. GAMBARDELLA: It's clearly hearsay. I will limit the offering to simply corroborate that this team in competitive cheer activities has gotten some national recognition. In terms of the specific statements, I'm going to ask her about 420 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 training and conditioning and you can cross Ms. Powers. MR. ORLEANS: Well, there's another exhibit to which I think there's no objection which is Quinnipiac University's press release about the team's coming in sixth in the competition that the witness was just mentioning. I think that accomplishes the purpose that counsel has suggested this exhibit is being offered for. So I will maintain the objection, Your Honor. MS. GAMBARDELLA: We would like to offer the article, Your Honor, for that limited purpose. THE COURT: Well, Exhibit J is hearsay so I'm going to sustain that objection. MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MS. GAMBARDELLA: Q. A. Let's go to Exhibit K. Yes. Can you tell us what that is? All right. That is our website's notation of the girls' placement down in College Nationals this year in Datona. Q. All right. And there's a quote from you third paragraph in, quote, "Quinnipiac has consistently remained contenders with very large and well respected programs. Our goal is to qualify for the finals and then move up in the rankings, which we accomplished," end quote. not talking about sideline cheering, are you? A. Q. No. And then there's a list of some of the competitors, You're 421 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 couple paragraphs down. And I think those are some of them that you've already mentioned here today? A. Q. Correct. Can you briefly explain to the court what kind of training is required to prepare the students for the type of competition that you've just shared with the court? A. The girls start training in September. We start them with strength and conditioning two times a week, in practice three times a week. They have tumbling instruction once a week during the practice, but they also tumble. They also do gymnastics at every practice. They actually just work on all of the elements of what is needed in a competition routine, which is -- we always practice progression of safety first before -- we never assume that the kids that are coming from high school because the rules in high school are so very, very different than they are in college, what they are allowed to do at the high school level. It's very, very different and much more elevated than what they are allowed to do in college. So we follow the national progression rules and practice safety drills first with the kids. When we are teaching basket tosses, they take them over to a gym off campus that has a harness and we put the girls in a harness and they work with a gymnastics coach on all of the backward basket tosses. I'm assuming you 422 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know what that is. THE COURT: BY THE WITNESS: A. Okay. So we practice the safety of that and then we I do. have the girls who are going to be catching and throwing that basket working on their leg conditioning and their upper body strength conditioning all season long. Then we do endurance training because it's very, very different when you're running a routine. Even though it's two minutes and 30 seconds, in those two minutes and 30 seconds, it's comparable to a hard sprint. every single body part. You're using The girls are using, depending on whether they are executing gymnastics in the routine and then moving on to a basket toss with not even a two second count between the element, they are just moving and it's continuous. The body's in continuous motion. So we have to practice endurance skills. Q. So physical conditioning, that's required? Required for them to compete? A. Q. Yes. All right. And you're paid a salary by Quinnipiac, correct? A. Q. A. Yes, I am. All right. Are you on a one year contract? Every year it's renewed. 423 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Every year it's renewed? Yes. And the school has permitted you to use some of your time on salary to train these students for competitive cheer activities; would that be correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. Now, have you had discussions with Jack McDonald about the elevation of competitive cheer at Quinnipiac to varsity level next year? A. Q. Very few since the announcement. Okay. Since the announcement, have you and he discussed what would need to -- in terms of competitions, what might have to change to be elevated to varsity level? A. Q. We would have to compete more. Okay. And so you are going to compete more, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. How do you know that you will be able to compete more? Are there enough competitions out there that the students are ready for? A. The schedule's already up for next year in almost The local ones are every venue except for the local ones. typically held in high school situations and the CIAC offers those first. We hold one of those ourselves. We host a tournament on campus where we bring in over 110 424 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 teams; high school, all star and college teams. approval doesn't really happen until September. Q. A. Q. You'll now be full-time? That's my understanding, correct. Full time coach, correct? So CIAC And you'll be totally devoted to competitive cheer activities, you personally, correct? A. Q. Is that your understanding? That's my understanding. What about scholarships? Have you had specific conversations with Mr. McDonald yet about scholarships? A. Just that there would be -- no, not a lot of details, just they would be forthcoming next year. Q. Okay, great. How do you know that there's sufficient interest at Quinnipiac for varsity level competitive cheer? A. By January I had already answered over 100 emails and since January I've already answered over probably 50 more, and the kids who sent in their deposits and have asked, sent me videos of their gymnastics skills and their stunting and pyramid skills. Q. A. So by -I would say right now I'm confident that I have over 62 kids trying out right now. Q. A. So you're talking about the incoming class? Yes. 425 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. What has been the expression of interest amongst the current students in competitive cheer? A. Q. Currently I know that 18 are returning. Okay. All right. You know, you understand that you have been given 40 roster spots to fill for competitive cheer for next academic year? A. Q. Yes. All right. Do you have any doubt that you'll be able to fill those 40 spots? A. Q. No. All right. On what did you base that answer with confidence? A. I know that my current kids are already worried they are not going to make the team because of the girls coming in. Q. A. Okay. And we've ended every single year with an alternate, There's been a lot of back up positions in place. interest just in emails and kids coming down at competitions to meet me, so some kids go to College Nationals to watch it. Some kids come up to me at competitions and we -- there's an exchange of phone numbers and emails so they can contact me after they've seen the kids perform. And they realize right in their, close to their home town, there's a place for them to take 426 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 their competitive -- there's a lot of all star gyms in Connecticut, so a lot of the kids competing all the time want to be part of a college that is also competing and doing well, so I get a lot of people, lot of kids coming up to me all the time. Q. A. Q. Are you aware of a stereotype about cheer? Of course. What's the stereotype in your understanding about cheer? A. I think it just goes to a frame of reference, and that frame of reference would be, you know, I'm approaching 50 and so that would be the kind of cheerleading that I did, maybe, you know, the bobbie socks, the pony tail and the skirt and the, you know, girl in high school who was looking to be liked by all the boys. And I don't know one young lady on my team that that's anything she's grown with. What's surprising to me to even hear it anymore, that kind of frame of reference, there's no girls on my team that I coach that's their, that's how they've grown up, but yet the stereotype still exists. perpetuates it really. So you wonder who Is it coming from some antique notion from way back when, or is it that people don't want to believe that it has any athletic capacity to it. Q. Are they athletes? 427 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. They are 100 percent athletes, no doubt about it. I have a lot of level eight and nine gymnasts on my team, so -Q. Have you spoken with your students on the team about the fact that whether or not they'll count as athletes is a subject of this lawsuit? A. Not as a group. What I've said to them is we are -- you, you as a team and you as an individual and your parents and your aunts, your uncles, your brothers and sisters, most of you who are now competing and choosing to do so, have come from a strong gymnastics background and strong competitive cheer background, and so if the stereotype that's brought, if that's put out there for you, you know what you do and it shouldn't matter. What you do is you just work hard and bring all of yourself onto that mat and continue to train and to believe and to succeed with your team, and you need to forget about the rest of the world because women's sport, in general, I mean I'm old enough that I've seen evolutions take place. Right down from women's basketball to women playing hockey at the college level, whoever would have thought? And so that sort of thing has just continued to grow and grow and grow. So why not cheerleading? What I said to the kids is we've got to -- we know that the venues are present out there all the time for us 428 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to compete at. And I do believe what the -- we know, the kids know that the Olympic committee is considering it for the 2016 Olympics because Japan, Korea and France and Australia want it, but they can't compete with the Americans right now. So the kids, I think the kids believe; they just don't like -- I think what offends them more than anything is other women kind of knocking them and their athletic skills. And yet just as many as with the glass half full and half empty, the other side of the glass is that there are so many of their friends and roommates and athletes on campus who do recognize what they do and have recognized it then when they were in high school and in grammar school or before here. So they are not looking for permission, they just don't want -- I think the stereotype is slowly but surely going away. Q. Have you gotten a sense from observation or things that you observe whether they are, from members of your team or otherwise, the atmosphere on campus toward them has taken somewhat of a negative turn since this lawsuit began? A. I was surprised to hear some of the things that I Because it's about irony. I mean it's ironic that heard. seem people make comments about the very people they support when they do sideline cheer. That they would take 429 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that time away from their academics and be the girl that would support a team by cheering them on and by being present at a time. And I think that offends them to a degree that they've been supportive of other sports on campus. One girl had said to me that, you know, she was not going to wear her warm-up since the announcement because somebody had yelled out -Q. A. Q. A. You can say it. Really? Yeah, really. She's heard everything. But other girls were Cheerleaders are fucking up. telling me that the professors were coming up to them and saying, great job, girls, we've been watching you for a long time. Other girls were telling me that they felt bad about what had happened to three other teams on campus and they were more concerned about that than the elevation, which I totally understood because I somewhat felt the same way. And then there's girls who felt like they had I just asked them to to defend and I asked them not to. be emphatic and sympathetic to the other athletes who had their programs cut. Q. Okay. Can you quickly go Exhibit F, F as in Frank. It's already been moved, Your Honor. A. Q. Okay. All right. Are you familiar with these materials? 430 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Some of them. All right. I haven't looked at this in a real long time. Okay. What is your understanding of what these materials are? A. This is Maryland's when they had made the decision to make competitive cheer a part of their affidavits. Q. Do you have these materials from the University of Maryland in your possession as well? A. I do not. I had when it was sent to us when we examined it, I want to say it was in 2005. Q. A. So, you've had these materials since 2005? Yes. Maryland's correspondence has been with me since I want to say end of 2004 to 2005. Q. Just briefly, what's the significance of the University of Maryland materials? A. They were looking to see how many other teams across the country were hoping to go with competitive cheer only. Q. A. Who's "they"? They were the coaches and the athletic department, University of Maryland. Q. A. Q. Thank you. Okay. And have you had any discussions with Mr. McDonald about referencing these materials at all for next year? 431 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Not specifically. We've talked about compliance issues, but -Q. A. Okay. You know, how to make a program, get the program off and going from try-out procedures to how many times we were going to compete to budget issues to team position issues to how we would handle the girls being on break, when they would return. Q. A. Q. By the way, do you have an understanding of Title IX? Yes. What's your understanding of -- let me ask you how you gleaned your understanding of Title IX? A. I gleaned my understanding of Title IX through what our athletic department has educated us, and that is that we look for equity between our athletes, male and female. MS. GAMBARDELLA: Honor? (Pause) MS. GAMBARDELLA: THE COURT: No further questions. Cross? May I have a moment, Your All right. MR. ORLEANS: CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. A. Yes, Your Honor. Good afternoon, Coach Powers. Good afternoon. 432 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. You've been waiting a long time? It's okay. You've been waiting around for a couple days and I'm sorry about that. The last thing you said was you have an understanding of Title 9? A. Q. Uh huh. (Affirmative.) Is it consistent with your understanding of Title IX that Quinnipiac should cut an existing women's sport at the same time it elevates competitive cheer, the status? A. Is it consistent with what I've been taught or what I Or -- believe? Q. A. Q. A. Q. Well, I asked with your understanding of Title IX? With my understanding of Title IX? Yes. Could you repeat the question, please? Is it consistent with your understanding of Title IX that Quinnipiac University should cut an existing women's varsity sport at the same time that it elevates competitive cheer to the status of a varsity sport? A. I really don't know how to answer that question because I don't know if that's an opinion -- or I'm still not sure, I guess, if you're asking me for my opinion. Q. Well, I wanted to ask two different questions. I wanted to ask first whether you understand it to be 433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 consistent with Title IX or permitted by Title IX. A. I don't know that that is consistent. I don't believe that that is within the relms of, of what -- I don't know if that is the way it's done, to tell you the truth. Q. I can't honestly answer that question. And secondly, let me ask you how you feel about it; what's your opinion? MS. GAMBARDELLA: Objection. She's not here to render that kind of opinion. of my direct. MR. ORLEANS: That is way beyond the scope I think she talked a little in her I'm just trying to direct testimony about how she felt. get that. THE COURT: I'm not sure it has adds anything. I'll withdraw it. MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: My sense is nobody here is happy. Right. THE WITNESS: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Has anyone told you, Coach Powers, that the volleyball players who are the plaintiffs in this suit are claiming that cheerleaders are just sort of bobby socks flirt-with-the-guys kind of people? A. Q. A. Has anybody told me they claim that? That's the question. No. 434 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And certainly none of the volleyball players have said anything to you to suggest that, have they? A. Q. No. In fact, you understand that this case is not about whether the cheer squad are athletes; it's about whether competitive cheer is ready to be counted as a sport for Title IX purposes, right? A. Q. Correct. Now, counsel made some reference to the Maryland materials which -A. Q. Uh huh. (Affirmative.) And you said that you have -- appear as Exhibit F. those materials at some point? A. I had certainly perused them but they were given back They were sent to our Athletic Department for their own. to us. Q. You're aware then that there's a process by which a sport can petition the NCAA to be recognized as an emerging sport? A. Q. I am now aware of that, yes. And do you know whether any organization has petitioned the NCAA on behalf of competitive cheer to be recognized as an emerging sport? A. Q. I do not know that, no. Now, you're in touch with the competitive cheer 435 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 coaching community, aren't you? A. am. Q. And you get emails from the people at the University It's pretty big, yeah, but I'm -- yeah, I would say I of Maryland and from other competitive cheer coaches, don't you? A. I don't know that it's -- maybe once a month, we might have a question for each other about a venue we're all hoping to attend or about seeing them down at college nationals, or about wishing them well on something I know that they are doing, and the same courtesies are forwarded back to myself. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So you're in the network basically? Of course. Fair to say? Of course. So, if there had been a petition to the NCAA to recognize competitive cheer as an emerging sport, do you think you'd know about it? MS. GAMBARDELLA: she doesn't know. Your Honor, she's already said It's really speculative -It's a different question. -- at this point. MR. ORLEANS: MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: Let me rephrase it. 436 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Do you think being in the network of competitive cheer coaches that if there had been a petition to the NCAA to recognize competitive cheer as an emerging sport, would you have heard about if? MS. GAMBARDELLA: I'm going to -- whether this witness has heard about it is irrelevant, but you know what? I'm going to withdraw the objection. Go ahead, do your best. BY THE WITNESS: A. I've heard that it's the intent for that to be petitioned, to be quite frank. Q. A. Q. But you haven't heard that it's happened yet? No. Okay. Now, you said that you have no doubt that you can fill 40 spots on the team for next year? A. Q. No doubt. And that's based on, you have 18 out of the current 28 who are returning? A. Q. Uh huh. (Affirmative.) What have you What have you told them -- excuse me. told the current group about the level of work that's going to be required now that competitive cheer is going to be a varsity sport? A. That's a really good question because actually the 437 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 level of work my girls will have now is a lot less. They will certainly have some different standards set forth, as all the athletes do, as a collective group, especially when it comes to all the compliance issues and it comes to academics. They've never had to come in as freshman and They've never been engaged in do Powers hours before. positive play. service. We certainly involve the team in community We did several things on our early years but we've never been under athletics, done that with athletics. But actually, my team had practiced three days a week strength and conditioned two days a week, and even if it was five basketball games in any one given week, they've taken all five games and cheered on one bus on a game and gone over to a competition to compete within their own right and then still had a practice the next day. So the girls actually hour-wise by compliance issues will be held to 20 and under rather than the current academic stress that's been on them for many, many years. Q. A. What will the competitive season be? It's my understanding that we will be trying out in September and it will go to the end of April. Q. So, from September to the end of April there's not going to be a defined championship season and -A. It's been defined that we will compete at least one or two times before the end of the first semester and then 438 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we will compete six to seven times after that. Q. Okay. And do you expect to comply with NCAA rules pertaining to recruiting? A. I have not been -- I have not -- they have not touched base with me on that yet. Q. Okay. So you haven't taken the NCAA coaches certification class? A. No, I'm looking forward to it if given the opportunity. Q. Do you know that NCAA rules regarding recruiting prohibit, at least for certain sports competition, intercollegiate competition that is conducted in conjunction with high school or prep school competition? MS. GAMBARDELLA: regulated sport. MR. ORLEANS: Is that an objection? Yeah. There's no foundation Your Honor, this is not a NCAA MS. GAMBARDELLA: for relevancy to this particular question, what she knows about NCAA. sponsored. She's coaching a sport that's not NCAA We've already talked about that. And you're asking her about NCAA rules when it may not even be applied. MR. ORLEANS: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. You just don't know whether you're going to be Well, let me try it another way. 439 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 required to comply with NCAA rules and recruiting regulations? A. Q. No, I do not know that yet. No, I don't. Do you know whether you're required to comply with any other NCAA regulations, other than recruiting? A. Q. I know that we are -Other than recruiting was the end of the question. I'm sorry. A. I know that we will be asked to comply to what is set forth for all Quinnipiac University athletes. Q. Okay. And do you know whether Quinnipiac would risk its Division I status with the NCAA if one of its varsity sports were out of compliance with NCAA rules regarding recruiting, for example? MS. GAMBARDELLA: Your Honor, there's no foundation that this would put this at risk. MR. ORLEANS: knows. THE COURT: Yes, well -I'm still not sure I know what I'm only asking her whether she THE WITNESS: he's asking me. THE COURT: Mr. McDonald frankly. MR. ORLEANS: you. That question may be better for That's fine, Your Honor. Thank 440 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. A. Q. A. Q. You said something about answering 150 emails? Yes, sir. Was that from 150 separate individuals? Yes. But then you said that you expected to have about -- have over 62 kids trying out? A. Q. Correct, sir. And that's including the returning, the returning class -A. Q. Yes. -- or that's in addition to -- okay. In the past, what proportion of the students who have tried out have made the team? A. 34. Q. So -- can't do the math that fast in my head. Is I think last year I had 58 kids try out and I took it -- is it better than 50 percent? percent? A. Is it better than 60 I guess I've never looked at it in percentiles. I've looked at the skills, what they are able to do, are they able to compete with the team for us to stay within the grid on the score sheet and elevate the score. Q. A. What are the criteria for making the team? There's a score sheet involved and there's standing 441 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and running tumbling, their position, their unique position. If they are going to try a back spot, support Standing and running, tumbling, jumps, base or a flyer. jumps to a gymnast still which we call a double toe or triple toe back. portion. Q. And who does this? Is this all kids who try out run A dance portion, and a partner stunt through those various elements, depending on what position they are in? A. Well, they try out. We have a three day clinic prior to that, so that we are sure that they are practicing safety first. They might come from a high school that might have a very different grip technique, for instance, that we don't need to be safe and they are able to hold that player in the air. Or they might say that they can tumble without a back spot and they say that because they want to make the team so badly. And even if they are on a matted surface, sometimes when they're doing the back hand spring, depending -- we can tell if their back hand spring or if their no hand back hand spring needs proper training before we let them move forward with that. So, we have a score sheet and they come out in groups of four. They come out in a stunt group as if they are going to compete with that stunt group, and then we take them through their jumps, their standing tumbling, their 442 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 running tumbling, their dance score. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. When you say "we" who is we? My assistant coaches. How many assistant coaches have you had in the past? Two. So you've had in addition to yourself -Two. You've had yourself and two assistants and the three of you watch these tryouts and score? A. Either the three of us or I've brought in two coaches from other colleges to judge it for us. Q. Okay, all right. Now, I thought I heard you say that you follow the national professional rules? A. Federation rules. There's national, there's several different rules. have to follow. Q. A. Q. There's an AACCA set of rules which I I'm sorry, say that again? AACCA certification. Is that the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors? A. Q. Yes. So there's a certification that you have to have with them? A. Q. Yes. And they have a set of safety rules, am I right about 443 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that? A. Q. A. Absolutely. Do they have a set of competition rules? No, competition rules are changed from venue to The NCA, which is the college nationals that we venue. attend, they have their own set of rules for both safety and for -- it's within time restrictions on the routine. Because it's telecast by FOX Sports or ESPN, there's, you know, television rules in order for performance productions. Q. So NCA, that is the National Cheerleaders Association right? A. Q. Yes. And that event that you have mentioned in which you competed is sponsored by the NCA-slash-NDA, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. National Cheer and Dance. NDA is National Dance Alliance? Yes. So the event is the National Cheer and Dance -Correct. MR. ORLEANS: H, is that correct? I don't know. Are you talking MS. GAMBARDELLA: about the schedule? I think it might be -- H, try H. Are you talking about the THE WITNESS: actual -- 444 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. BARDAVID: The NCA roster. That's H. MS. GAMBARDELLA: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. So that's the NCA/NDA Intercollegiate Cheer and Dance Championship that was held in April of this year, correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. Now, what do you have to do to enter this competition? A. We either receive a bid by going to camp or by submitting a video of your skills, a skills tape of basic -Q. A. Q. A. Of the team? Yes. Okay. They basically have all the same elements that are our score sheet that we have already discussed here today; from gymnastics to partner to pyramids to basket tosses to jumps. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And is there a fee, an entry fee that you pay? There's a registration fee, yes. Okay. How much is that? It's per participant. Okay. So how many participants did you take? We took 26. Okay. And what was the fee per participant? 445 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Per participant, it was -- it's for their hotel. That fee is for their hotel and their fee per participant is $100. Q. Okay, and that covers -- there's no separate entry fee to compete in the event? A. Q. A. Q. No. Other than a hotel cost? No -- well, air fare. Air fare, which the team -- which was paid by Quinnipiac, I assume? A. Q. A. Q. In essence. I suppose you could say that. Well, it wasn't? I run a competition every single year. Oh, and you raise money at the competition that you run at Quinnipiac, which is then used to pay those kinds of expenses? A. Q. That is paid for college nationals. And what about the next year for the competitive, the Will you will be expected to varsity competitive team? raise funds through the competition you sponsor to pay for things like -A. I know that I was to hold that competition and we have not discussed the revenue on that yet. Q. A. So you don't know? No. 446 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now, on Exhibit H, this, the NCA collegiate cheer championship, Quinnipiac was in the all girl I Division, correct? A. Q. All girl Division I, yes. You said you had to send a tape to get in. Do you have any idea how many schools sent tapes? A. Q. I have no idea. Okay. And in the first round, this is the -- there A preliminary and then a final? are two rounds, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Preliminaries and finals, yes. And how many schools competed in the first round? In our division? In your division, yes. Eighteen. I'm only counting 16 on this schedule, are there -Very well could have been 16. I thought it was 18, I apologize. Q. A. That's okay. Eight. MR. ORLEANS: And there was actually another And how many made the finals? video that was marked as an exhibit, I don't know that we objected to -MS. GAMBARDELLA: didn't -MR. ORLEANS: No, I understand, but it's in It's more of the same and 447 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evidence anyway because it was not objected to. offered. MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: I didn't put it in. It was I thought everything that wasn't Okay, it objected to was stipulated in at the outset. doesn't matter. BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Let me just ask you, I think I've seen another video of the preliminary competition. A. Q. Sure. Is that video available on the Quinnipiac website or somewhere? A. Q. Yes. In the preliminary competition, the team opened with a crowd response segment, didn't it? A. Q. Absolutely, yes. So, in the preliminary round there was some cheering and then the tumbling and gymnastics, correct? A. Q. Correct. And then in the final round, it was tumbling and gymnastics? A. Q. Correct. Now, forgive me if counsel already asked you this. Of the teams in the competition in Datona Beach, 2009 NCA competition, how many of those teams were exclusively 448 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 competitive cheer teams? A. Q. A. Exclusively -Yes, I'm sorry, I'm talking about your -I haven't even asked the ones that did not make Competitive only was University of finals, as we did. Illinois, Ohio State, Maryland, University of Florida, Cadshaw, University of Maryland, six out of the 16. Q. And you're confident that those teams were competitive only; did no sideline cheer? A. Q. Hundred percent confident. Now, I know you said that there are a bunch of, there are a bunch of -A. Oh, North Carolina State. THE COURT: twice. THE WITNESS: MR. ORLEANS: this point, Judge. BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. I think you said a moment or two ago there are a Okay, thank you,. You're more awake than I am at That would be 17. Well, actually you said Maryland number of organizations that have different competitive rules? A. Q. Do you mean as far as the venue itself? Well, I'm actually trying to understand what you I asked you about rules and you mentioned the said. 449 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 National Cheerleaders Association, which has one set of rules that would apply to this championship that we were just discussing? A. I think I meant to say score sheets because sometimes the score sheet changes from event to event? A. A. Q. What does that mean, the score sheet? The actual score sheet that you're scored on. So there may be different weights to the different elements? A. No, they don't give different weight to the different At the elements -- well, in some instances they do. college nationals, they have a collegiate image score but I know that's set in place by Fox, I think, to satisfy the sport networks for uniform purposes, because there has been some uniform deductions given and they don't want that. So they have now what is a collegiate image score on the score sheet to make sure we're all on the same page for family viewing. Q. Well, is it true, isn't it, there are several organizations that sponsor collegiate cheer competitions? A. Q. No, there's two -- collegiate or you mean nationals? Okay, I was starting with intercollegiate There are several organizations, are there competitions. not? A. I know of two that sponsor -- 450 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. What are the two that you know of? UCA, National Cheerleading Association, and NCA. Okay. And NCA is the organization that we've been discussing that sponsors the collegiate cheer and dance championship; this year it was in Datona Beach in April, correct? A. Q. Every year it's in Datona. And then UCA sponsors a college cheerleading and dance team national championship, this year at Disney in January, correct? A. Correct. And the difference usually in between which colleges decide to go where or get their bids to either, a lot of the time is based on football, and because a lot of those teams go to, we don't go. until September. We don't hold our trials Those We have basketball programs. teams that go or are competing are competing because they are at the end of their bigger season, being football. they go to UCA in January. Q. Ms. Powers, do me a favor. Wait until I ask you a So question and then answer the question. A. Q. A. Q. Thank you, sir. And let Ms. Gambardella ask you to amplify, okay? Okay. Thank you. But there's no reason that a school couldn't, 451 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 schedule permitting, enter both the UCA and the NCA championships? A. Q. A. Q. No, they won't allow you to enter both. You have to pick one or the other? Absolutely. All right. And there's also an United Spirit Association; are you familiar with that organization? A. Q. No. That runs a collegiate, this year ran a collegiate nationals championship in Anaheim in March. A. What I do know is anybody calling it collegiate nationals, it has been taken up within its own, that has been -- NCA and UCA have exclusive rights to college nationals and there's companies coming up and calling them collegiate nationals but they are not. It's just a title that they are bringing to entice, and we've all been made aware of that in competitive cheer. Q. Is there a national governing organization for competitive cheer? A. Q. A. I think we all follow NCA or UCA rules. And -Because there's a safety handbook put for collegiate cheer. Q. A. Okay, so NCA puts out a safety handbook? As does UCA. 452 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Is this the same document? Yes. And both NCA and UCA are affiliated with a company called Varsity? A. Q. A. Yes. Are they not? Do you know what that is? You're asking me Varsity is the name of the company. what it is? Q. A. Yeah. They do camps from -- they do camps. They do competition routines. They -They sell cheer apparel. They do whole competitions. Q. So Varsity is a private profit-making company that runs camps for profit and -A. Q. A. I don't know anything about the profits or --- sells uniforms for profit, correct? I would say -- I would imagine so, but I don't know anything about the profits. Q. Is there an organization of which the collegiate, of which the colleges that sponsor competitive cheer teams are members? Sort of like the NCAA for other sports, but is there some sort of organization where educational institutions are the members and they sponsor, those are institutions that sponsor the competitive cheer teams? A. I'm not understanding the question. 453 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, I asked you a moment ago if there was a national governing body for cheer and you said everybody follows NCA or UCA, correct? A. Q. Correct. Or if they are All Star, USAF. And All Star, that's a high school organization, right? A. Q. A. No. Private clubs doing competitive cheer? It's pretty intense training for kids starting at the age of five and up. Q. Okay. I'm not trying to denigrate the intensity of All Star is it; I'm just trying to understand what it is. some sort of organization of private clubs that do cheer training for kids starting at the age of five? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Uh huh. (Affirmative.) And does it run, does it run through college? Yes, they go up to what's called a level six. And how old are the competitors at level six? They can be 18 years or older. Eighteen year old or older at level six, but they don't have to be affiliated with a college or university? A. No, they don't. You mean the actual member of the team? Q. A. Yes. No, they don't. 454 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, so to come back, so now we've got, there are -- there are rules from NCA, there are rules from UCA, there is a safety handbook that those two organizations cooperate on, there's a separate organization that's the All Star organization? A. Q. A. USAF. USAF. Is there any governing body for all this? As I said earlier, we follow We follow the AACCA. the AACCA. Q. A. When you say "we" who do you mean? You can't compete if you don't hold an AACCA certification. Q. A. Q. That's for the coaches? Uh huh. Okay. THE COURT: Mr. Orleans, I'm going to ask a (Affirmative.) couple of questions, if you don't mind. MR. ORLEANS: too quickly. THE COURT: 26 participants? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: participate? Yes. Do all the 26 The competitions, you said you took That's fine. I don't always move To the nationals? Like did I see 26 women? No, you saw 20. The amount you THE WITNESS: 455 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 can put on the floor at college nationals is 20. Locally, regionally -- locally and regionally you can compete up to 36 people on the floor, but when it comes to college nationals you're allowed to put 20, your 20 best on the floor. THE COURT: Okay. So the 40 that you're looking at next year are going to be a single competitive squad, not an A team and a B team? THE WITNESS: No, this would be a single squad and they would all compete locally and regionally, but when it came down to that final competition, being collegiate nationals, it would be like having, you go to match and the other 20 would probably, you know, sponsor your pyramids around the gymnastics skills, quite frankly, the team position. THE COURT: When did you first hear of the possibility that competitive cheer would be made a varsity sport? THE WITNESS: Well, competitive cheer is a varsity sport as named by several -THE COURT: No, I mean at Quinnipiac. When did I hear about it? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes. I'm not sure. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: And had you requested that status 456 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prior to March 5th? THE WITNESS: Had I requested that status? No. It had been discussed with me several years ago, possibly starting around 2005. THE COURT: Had members of your squad requested of you to seek varsity status? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes. When was that? It's been ongoing for a long time, I would think more THE WITNESS: the girls asking to be compete only. out of -- you know, just looking back to some of my alumni, I think a lot of the reasons was their plates were full, as all the kids at Quinnipiac. They have pretty intense majors and they were cheering for men's and women's basketball and they were competing as well, as well as practicing. And so they had come to me many times -- what I will say, I typically will lose several kids a year up to this point. I will lose several -- it's not uncommon for me to lose ten players, and the reason is their plates were way too full. And I would often ask the question, well, is it the sideline cheering you want or is it the competitive end? to me. And that question has been posed I would say it's 80/20, eighty percent want to They have been raised on competitive cheer, all compete. through the All Star program and through high school. 457 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 And the other kids, I know this year 37 girls are not going to return because they wanted to cheer for games, and there's been a couple kids who asked if they could do both because they like the competitive end and they don't feel like their studies stress them out so much that they can't competitively cheer, cheer for games and handle their academics. But for the majority of the kids on my team, you know -- and then there's the kids who know that they are going to try to enter a competitive program. If they only have a back hand spring, the likelihood of making the team without a standing tuck and a back flip and having, you know, a position that's going to be really tough for them because it's kind of expected that at the collegiate level to come in with a standing tuck at the very least, and if you don't, you're not going to grab one of those positions. THE COURT: All right. Going back to the team size issue, you said local competitions you can have up to 36. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Thirty-six, correct. Who And who makes that decision? limits the size of the team that's competing? THE WITNESS: I suppose the venue in itself. You know, they send you their set of rules and it's been 458 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pretty standard you can have up to 36 on the floor, you can have 36 kids taking the floor. more. THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. That is standard. No MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: Are you -- Done. -- done for now, Your Honor? MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Yes. You said you follow the American Association of Do you look at that as Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors. the governing body for the sport of cheer? A. Q. For the most part, yes. Okay. Are you familiar with the position of that organization on whether cheer should be counted as a sport for Title IX purposes? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I am not familiar with that, no. You know who Jim Lord is? Yes, I do. Who is Mr. Lord? Mr. Lord is the head of University -- UCA. Beg pardon? UCA, I believe. And do you know whether he was Executive Director of the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and 459 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Advisors? A. Q. I believe he would be. Okay. And do you go to the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors website from time to time and look at what's on that website? A. Do I go on it? I think the last time I was on it was because they also post, they had posted the college safety initiative, so I think I had gone on it to look up that. I had navigated the site to look at the National Safety Initiative. Q. Did you ever see a copy of the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors' position paper addressing the issue of cheering as a sport? A. Q. Who was it addressed to and by? Well, it's something that appears on the website. It is the statement that appears on the website? MS. GAMBARDELLA: Your Honor, I think this is I didn't ask this beyond the scope of my direct. witness's testimony about whether or not the Office of Civil Rights could come in and scrutinize this. think what this court should decide. MR. ORLEANS: objection. MS. GAMBARDELLA: the scope of my direct. The objection is it's beyond I'm not understanding the That's I 460 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ORLEANS: Well, the witness testified that the closest thing to a national governing body she's aware of for the sport of cheer is the AACCA and I'm trying to bring out the position of the AACCA on cheerleading as a sport. THE COURT: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. So, my question is have you ever seen the position I'll allow it. paper of the AACCA on the issue of cheerleading as a sport? A. No, I have not. MS. GAMBARDELLA: Your Honor, what date are we talking about for that position paper? MR. ORLEANS: have from the website. MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: Is it an exhibit? It's not dated, the copy that I No, this is not an exhibit and that's the only copy that I have. MS. GAMBARDELLA: (Pause) MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: And it's not dated? Thank you. It's dated April 16, 2009, which is the date that I printed it off the website. MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: Got you. I don't know what date it was 461 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issued. MS. GAMBARDELLA: exhibit. MR. ORLEANS: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Let me refer you to Exhibit 35, to which there is an I think you said that Jim Lord, you knew that No. I'm making sure it's not an objection. Jim Lord had been the Executive Director of the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors, correct? A. I said -- you know what, he's been involved in cheerleading since as long as I have, so I don't know how many times he's changed his position within the company. I'm sure if you're telling me that he has been, he has. Q. Is he recognized in the community of cheerleading coaches as an authority figure? A. He is, but with the division of the UCA and NCA, which we have attended, as I've told you, we enter NCA collegiate national championships, that would be Bill Boggs (ph), who is more the person that I speak to if I have any concerns on score sheets or -- anything to do with cheerleading, the athletic aspects of cheerleading. Q. Would it surprise you to know that Mr. Lord's opinion is that the acceptance of cheerleading as a Title IX activity will not enhance cheerleading, nor increase athletic opportunities for women? 462 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unfair. MS. GAMBARDELLA: Your Honor, this is totally If you'd like the This document is dated 1998. witness to refer to it, it's only fair that she refer to it. The document is 11 years old. MR. ORLEANS: I think that was the date that Quinnipiac last announced it was adding a women's sport, counselor. MS. GAMBARDELLA: MR. ORLEANS: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Your question -- I'll be glad to show the witness. Go ahead. It's in this notebook. It's in one of these notebooks, MR. ORLEANS: it's Exhibit 35. THE WITNESS: 1998? 1998. MS. GAMBARDELLA: THE WITNESS: BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. I'd be happy to see this one. And I'd just call your attention to the third paragraph, which states the AACCA position on cheerleading as a sport at that time. A. Q. A. Okay, I've read it. Okay? Do you agree with it? I think a lot has changed in ten Do I agree with it? years since this was put out. Q. Okay. 463 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ran. ground. hearsay. MR. ORLEANS: I'll offer this, Your Honor. Your Honor, I have no idea MS. GAMBARDELLA: what probative value something somebody wrote in 1998 has to do with Quinnipiac's program in 2007, -8 and -9. THE COURT: All right, well, it's obviously MS. GAMBARDELLA: THE COURT: And it's hearsay. I'm going to keep it out on that BY MR. ORLEANS: Q. Do you have any reason, Ms. Powers, to believe that the AACCA's position on cheerleading has changed, cheerleading as a sport under Title IX has changed since 1998? A. The AACCA and Jim Lord are two separate entities. Just because he might have been on the governing body of one at some given time does not mean that the positions are constantly held and reflect each other at all times. Competitive cheer is changing all the time. The rules have changed in the past ten years since this was written. The owners of -- Varsity NCA and UCA at one point had merged, collectively merged, okay? So, there's lots of changes since this document has It's like a corporation where management has changed So I'm not where they've been elevated to a new position. 464 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 quite sure what you're asking me. Q. Well, what I asked you was do you have any reason to believe that the position of the American Association of Cheerleading Coaches and Advisors on whether cheer should be counted as a sport for Title IX purposes has changed since 1998. question. A. Q. I don't know. I think it's changed. That's a perfectly acceptable I think it's a pretty straightforward You don't know. answer. MS. GAMBARDELLA: sorry, he interrupted her. he shouldn't interrupt. THE COURT: know where you are. The hour's getting late. I do need to -You need to leave, Your Honor? I don't Don't interrupt her. I'm If he doesn't like the answer, MR. ORLEANS: THE COURT: I had a couple quick questions. Why don't you ask your questions MR. ORLEANS: while I check to see whether I have any more. THE COURT: All right. On the question of competitions, many sports at the collegiate level have a fixed series of competitions. league. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Correct. You play people in your You may have a, a record that 465 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 qualifies you for some post season competition. any of that in competitive cheer? Is there Or is it more you decide, for whatever reason, to go to this competition or that competition or whatever? THE WITNESS: situation -THE COURT: Okay. -- I know that our conference, the Your second, your second THE WITNESS: NCA, there are coaches currently working on developing our own competition within the conference. THE COURT: And what criteria do you use when deciding what competitions to enter? THE WITNESS: Well, it's going to change but t

Disclaimer: Justia Dockets & Filings provides public litigation records from the federal appellate and district courts. These filings and docket sheets should not be considered findings of fact or liability, nor do they necessarily reflect the view of Justia.

Why Is My Information Online?