Schoolcraft v. The City Of New York et al

Filing 399

FILING ERROR - DUPLICATE DOCKET ENTRY - DECLARATION of NATHANIEL B. SMITH in Opposition re: 297 MOTION for Summary Judgment .. Document filed by Adrian Schoolcraft. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit POX 28, # 2 Exhibit POX 29, # 3 Exhibit POX 31, # 4 Exhibit POX 32, # 5 Exhibit POX 34, # 6 Exhibit POX 35)(Smith, Nathaniel) Modified on 2/17/2015 (db).

Page 1
1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

2

---------------------------------------------X

3

ADRIAN SCHOOLCRAFT,

4

Plaintiff,

5

Case No:
-

6

10

against -

cv 06005

7

THE CITY OF NEW YORK, ET AL.,
8

Defendants.

9

10
11

---------------------------------------------X
111 Broadway
New York, New York

12
January 13, 2014
10:19 a.m.

13
14
15
16
17

DEPOSITION OF ELISE HANLON, pursuant to Subpoena,

18

taken at the above place, date and time, before

19

DENISE ZIVKU,

20

State of New York.

a Notary Public within and for the

21

22
23
24
25

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2

A.

Not -- no.

3

Q.

What is

4

person wants

5

A.

the protocol when a

to refuse medical attention?
If the patient has decisional

6

capacity,

they are alert and oriented times

7

three,

8

is,

9

i f they don't go

they understand what the situation

they understand that the ramifications
to

the hospital and they're

10

not under any influence of any alcohol,

11

drugs or anything that would alterer their

12

thought process.

13

those categories and they s t i l l refuse to go

14

to

15

control,

16

physician.

the hospital,

18

SMITH:

which is

Can you

the

just read

back that answer for me.
(Record read.)

19

20

then we call our medical

our telemetry,

MR.

17

And if they don't f i t into

Q.

In this circumstance where the

21

individual who you were going to the

22

of his house on October 31,

23

alert and oriented three times?
MR.

24

25

A.

212-267-6868

SHAFFER:

2009,

scene

was he

Objection.

Yes.
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ELISE HANLON

Q.

And did he understand the

situation?
MR.

4

SHAFFER:

Objection.

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And was he under the influence

7

of any drugs

8

determine?

or alcohol

9

A.

I

10

Q.

Well,

that you could

don't know.
did you draw a

conclusion

11

that he was under the influence of any drugs

12

or alcohol?

13

A.

14

assessment.

I

did not do the patient

15

Q.

You were at the scene,

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

You were the supervising

18

paramedic at the scene,

19

A.
Q.

All right,

right?

Yes.

20

right?

so in your opinion,

21

did the individual who was at the scene,

22

patient,

23

the

attention?

have the ability to request medical

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

I

212-267-6868

am going to show you what's
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2

being marked as

3

I t ' s several different copies,

form known as

4

the PCR and i t does

Bates

5

number on i t .

6

on by the parties and I

7

the form,

8

eight and a

9

and some of copies that have been produced,

the next Exhibit,

not have a

Which is a

because I

it's

65.

Stamp

number that's put

made a

few copies of

believe i t ' s not an

half by eleven piece of paper

10

either by the plaintiff or by the hospital

11

aren't as clear as

12

why I

13

generations of the same document.

14

the original was

15

least an original was

So that's

have made this exhibit mul·tiple
I

believe

in the hospital files

or at

in the hospital file.

(Plaintiff's Exhibit 65,

16

17

document,

18

as

19

Q.

20

they could be.

was marked for identification

of this date.)
Lieutenant,

are you familiar

with this document?

21

A.

Am I

22

Q.

Yes.

familiar with these forms?
I'm sorry.

That's

right.

Are you familiar with this

23

Thank you.

24

form

of documents?

25

A.

212-267-6868

Yes.
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ELISE HANLON

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2

3

Q.

What is this document,

the form

of documents?

4

A.

PCR.

5

Q.

What is the PCR?

6

A.

Patient care report.

7

Q.

What is the patient care report

8

created for?

9

A.

10
11

A record of the patient contact

with emergency medical services.

Q.

Is

this a

form that is required

12

to be filled by EMTs responding to a

13

situation out in the field.

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

Is

this a

form that's

required

16

to be filled out by an EMT,

whether they are

17

fire department EMTs or private EMTS?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Is i t the same form,

20

whether

fire department or a private ambulance?

21

A.

Relatively.

22

Q.

There are differences?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

What are the differences?

25

A.

Some of their format is

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that was on the scene.
Q.

Are you saying yes,

I

knew the

EMTs at the scene?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

Did you know nobody else who was

7

at the scene?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

How did you know the

10

who were at the scene?
MR.

11

12
13
14
15

two EMTs

A.
that I

SHAFFER:

Objection.

They work in the neighborhood
work in.

Q.

When you got to the scene you

recognized them?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And you knew that they were

18

Jamaica EMTs?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

When you got to the scene what

21

did you see?

22

A.

Many police vehicles.

23

Q.

How many police vehicles?

24

A.

More than five.

25

Q.

What kind of police vehicles did

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you see?
A.

4

there,

5

ESU was

there,

marked RMPs were

there.

I

am sure there were unmarked RMPs

6

Q.

Anything else?

7

A.

I

8

Q.

RMPs are radio patrol cars?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And there also was

11

there,

don't recall anything else.

an ambulance

right?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Any other cars at the scene that

14

you saw?

15

A.

Not that I

16

Q.

When you got to

17

recall.
the

scene how

many people did you see on the street?

18

A.

Numerous.

19

Q.

When you say numerous,

20

what do

you mean?

21

A.

More than 15.

22

Q.

When you drove

to

scene,

23

before you got to

24

any discussion with anybody about the

25

A.

212-267-6868

the scene,

the

did you have
job?

No.
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I,

I
,.

2

Q.

When you got the call from the

3

911 dispatcher,

4

radio?

5

A.
Q.

Was

!

Yes.

6

you got that call on the

that a

call directed at you

7

or was

i t directed at an individual who fell

8

into the category requiring your response?

9

A.

Directed at me.

10

Q.

So the dispatcher Lieutenant

11

Hanlon,

12

that effect?

13

A.

I

need you to respond or words

to

Using my radio designation,
I

don't know if i t was a

14

asked me

15

she

she.

The dispatcher asked me to respond.

16
17
18

What's your understanding about

Q.

why the dispatcher asked you to respond?

A.

The call type that I

19

i t as was a

20

an officer's

21

Q.

A lieutenant's

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And you were the lieutenant on

24
25

duty for
A.

212-267-6868

barricaded EDP,

received,

which requires

response.
response?

that geographic area?
The lieutenant apparently that
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2

A.

No.

3

Q.

You said that Jamaica Hospital

4

was

the closest facility,

5

did you tell me

that earlier today?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

When you say closest,

you mean

8

in as

9

assessment about what the closest hospital

10

crows fly or how did you make the

was?

11

A.

Should be mileage wise.

12

Q.

Mileage wise and is

there a

13

program or software program that you use in

14

order to make that determination or is there

15

some sort of system that makes

16

determination for you?

17

A.

18

our dispatch

19

recommendations come up.

20

hospital

21
22
23
24
25

that

Now in our computer system
system the hospital
So the closest

comes up in the computer.

Q.

Was

that true that there was a

system like that in October 2009?

A.
system was

Q.

212-267-6868

I

don't remember if the same

in effect then.
So am I

correct that you

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remember drawing a

3

Hospital was

4

don't remember what the basis for

5

statement is?

6

A.

conclusion that Jamaica

the closest hospital,

but you
that

That we've taken patients from

7

that area to Jamaica Hospital as using i t as

8

the basis of being closer hospitals.

9

don't know if i t came as

-- if the system

10

allowed i t to come up as

the first

11

recommended.

12

place then.

13

patients from that area to Jamaica Hospital.

Q.

14
15

I

I

don't know if that was

So past practice,

Bow that far is

in

we've taken

that area to

Jamaica Hospital?

A.

16

don't know.

Their PCRs have

17

i t --

18

It's a

19

I

20

PCRs are different than theirs are.

21

I

I

said,

Q.

don't think their PCRs have i t .
couple of miles.

I

don't know.

now the computer tells you.

Okay.

22

Forest Bills is a

23

Like

Our

Is i t also true that
few miles away from the

scene?

24

MR.

KRETZ:

25

MR.

SHAFFER:

212-267-6868

Objection.
Objection.

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2
3
4

A.

Most hospitals are within a

couple of miles of each other,. yes.

Q.

Well,

I

am asking for your

5

knowledge.

Isn't i t true that Forest Hills

6

is within a

couple of miles

7

here set forth on the PCR,

8

88th Place,

9

A.

10
11

Glendale;
I

Exhibit 65,

82-60

isn't that right?

don't know the distance.

Couple of miles.

Q.

of this address

Was

I

don't know the distance.

i t fair

to

say that Forest

12

Hills could be about the same distance as

13

Jamaica?

14
15

MR.

A.

SHAFFER:

Possibly a

16

fair

never did the mileage.

17

Objection.
statement.

I

the mileage is.

18

Q.

Yeah,

I

I

don't know what

know,

but you've been

19

working in the fire department for

20

This was within your area.

21

of what your knowledge of the distance is?

22
23

MR.
A.

SHAFFER:

So

I

23 years.

am curious

Objection.

Within -- that hospital is

24

within the response area of that call.

25

don't know what the exact mileage was.

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2

Q.

3

do you mean?

4

A.

5
6

When you say response area,

what

The area where the call was in

reference to where the hospitals are.
Do I

Q.

understand you to be

7

telling me that Forest Bills and Jamaica

8

Hospital were two of the hospitals

9

within a

that were

certain geographic distance from

10

the scene of the apartment?

11

MR.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

12

A.

Restate your question.

13

Q.

Well,

what I

want to know is if

14

they're both -- i f Forest Bills and Jamaica

15

Hospitals are both within a

16

apartment,

17

response area,

18

no difference whether you take a

19

one facility or the other provided that both

20

facilities

21

requirements of the call?

few miles of the

and they're both within the
is i t correct that i t makes
patient to

have the medical or psychiatric

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Was

the decision to

24

this case,

25

Adrian Schoolcraft,

212-267-6868

take,

in

the person in the apartment,
to Jamaica Hospital,

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ELISE HANLON

2

that decision made before the entry into the

3

apartment or after?

4

A.

After.

5

Q.

If the patient had requested to

6

go to Forest Bills,

would Jamaica EMS crew

7

have taken him there?

8

A.

I t they could.

9

Q.

Would they be required to do so

I
i.

10

with conditions permitting i t ,

11

they worked for a

different hospital?

12

MR.

OSTERMAN:

13

MR.

SHAFFER:

14

A.

15

patient to a

16

fits

17

even though

Objection.
Objection.

patient.

18

They are not required to

specific hospital unless i t

in the category that's best for

Q.

take a

There's nothing --

the

just because

19

they're working for Jamaica Hospital doesn't

20

mean that they have to take

21

Jamaica Hospital,

the patient to

right?

22

MR.

OSTERMAN:

23

MR.

SHAFFER:

24

A.
Q.

Is i t fair

Objection.

Correct.

25

Objection.

212-267-6868

to say that there is

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ELISE HANLON

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a

3

particular hospital

4

to the hospitals

tendency for EMTs who work for

to bring patients back

they're associated with?

5

MR.

OSTERMAN:

6

MR.

SHAFFER:

7

A.

I

a

Objection.
Objection.

can't make that assumption.

8

Our computer recommendations now tell you

9

what the closest hospitals are.

10
11

though,

Well,

Q.

MR.

A.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

They tell you what the closest

14

hospitals are.

15

the first recommended hospitals,

16

choice

right?

12
13

they give you a

Q.

You're supposed to follow
suggestion.

So the decision to take Officer

17

Schoolcraft or Adrian Schoolcraft to Jamaica

18

Hospital,

19

apartment?

that decision was made in the

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

What was

22

A.

It was based on proximity,

that decision based on?
it

23

was based on his blood pressure.

24

complained of chest pains.

25

go to the hospital and then removed himself

212-267-6868

Then he

He assented to

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2

from the ambulance.

3

based on a

4

aspect.

5

Q.

6

So at that point i t was

psychiatric as well as a medical

Did he complain of chest pains

while you were in the apartment?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

When did he complain of chest

9
10

pains?

A.

After he removed himself from

11

the ambulance and went back up to his

12

apartment and apparently locked himself back

13

in his apartment.

14

Q.

15

chest pains?

16

A.

Did you hear him complain about

17
18

The police officer came out and

said he was complaining of chest pains.

Q.

You didn't know about chest pain

19

issues when the decision to take him to

20

Jamaica Hospital was made;

is

that right?

21

A.

Correct.

22

Q.

So the patient's complaints

23

about chest pain was irrelevant to the

24

decision to take him to Jamaica;

25

right?

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isn't that

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ELISE HANLON

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MR.

KRETZ:

3

MR.

SHAFFER:

4

A.

Objection.

At that point his chest pains

5

were irrelevant.

6

pains,

7

Objection.

His complaining of chest

Jamaica is a

Q.

No,

I

better choice.

understand that.

8

want to know what facts

9

the decision makers
available to

11

they made the decision.

12

A.

were not

my inquiry?

13

just

were available to

and what facts

10

I

the decision makers at the

time

Do you understand

They based their decision on

14

Jamaica being a

15

that his blood pressure was abnormally high,

16

especially for his age.

17

Q.

Was

closer facility,

on the fact

there something about

18

Jamaica as opposed to Forest Hills or some

19

other hospital in the response area that

20

would be make Jamaica appropriate for

21

blood pressure?

22

MR.

SHAFFER:

23

MR.

OSTERMAN:

24

25

A.

212-267-6868

Objection.
Objection.

Not necessarily.

for either hospital.

I

high

I

don't work

have no basis on

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4

ELISE HANLON
either hospital.

Q.

Who made the decision to take

him to Jamaica Hospital?

5

A.

The EMT crew on the scene.

6

Q.

Do you know which one of the two

7

people that you identified made the

8

decision?

9

A.

The recommendation to go to

10

Jamaica Hospital was done by Mr.

11

Sangianetti.

12

Q.

Do you know whether or not

13

anybody from the NYPD had any input into

14

that decision?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Can you turn your attention to

17

Exhibit 65,

please,

18

the upper right-hand corner of the first

19

page says reference to the call number?

20

A.

Q.

Right.

Do you see in

Blank.

21

the PCR.

22

You see that area right

there?

23

A.

Hmm-mm.

24

Q.

Is that what's also known as the

25

CAD number?

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2

A.

I

3

Q.

Is

cannot.
there a portion of this

4

document that would capture that information

5

that is not indicating what that priority

6

number was?

7

A.

Our PCRs don't denote the

8

priority number.

9

they received this

10

job.

I

don't know what

they got the call as.

11
12

It does not tell me how

Q.

The CAD number would help you

get that information,

right?

13

A.

14

you saw the

the verbiage of the

job,

15

the CAD number itself isn't going to

tell

16

you.

1 7•

The CAD number itself,
job,

The CAD number plus

Q.

unless

the report

18

underlying the CAD number would give you the

19

information?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Can you,

looking at this

22

document,

23

and sirens were used to take the person or

24

the patient to the hospital?

25

A.

212-267-6868

determine whether or not lights

I

believe that what's

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ELISE HANLON

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underneath i t is,

3

copy.

but i t ' s not clear on my

Does i t say to destination?

4

Q.

That's what i t looks like to me.

5

A.

So lights and sirens were not

Q.

In that same row or box,

6

used.

7

8

was a

transport to code and a

9

34.

there

see that?

Do you

10

A.

Hmm-mm.

11

Q.

You have to say yes or no.

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

What does transport code 34 mean

14

to you?

15

A.

The hospital number.

16

Q.

That's

17

just a

reference to

Jamaica?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

In that same box there is a

20

category of run type emergency parenthesis

21

immediate or nonemergency.

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Is

You see that?

24
25

that an indication of how the

ambulance goes to the scene?

A.

212-267-6868

All

911 calls received are

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ELISE HANLON

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the reasons why his blood pressure was high.

3

What I

4

21 years of experience and training as an

5

EMT and a

6

the bottom number on a

7

reading,

8

the possible issue that needs

9

at medically?

want to know is,

paramedic,

what does

A.

10

based on your

if you have a

120 as

blood pressure

that indicate to you is
to be looked

It could be a blockage in any of

11

his arteries,

i t could be a

12

could be a medical

13

undiagnosed,

14

things.

15

Q.

blood clot,

it

-- family history that's

i t could be any number of

Do you agree with me that a

16

recent traumatic event could also get that

17

number to 120?
MR.

18

A.

19

20

I

21

SHAFFER:

Objection.

Anything's possible,

don't know.

I

possibly.

don't have an answer for

you.
does

the top number 160

22

Q.

23

mean to you?

24

A.

That also is high.

25

Q.

What does

212-267-6868

Wha~

i t medically indicate

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ELISE HANLON
to you?
MR.

3
4

A.

5

working.

6

SHAFFER:

I t ' s the force

Objection.
that the heart is

So i t ' s the contraction of the

heart.
Do you agree with me that

7

Q.

8

trauma,

9

affect both of these numbers?

mental or physical trauma will

MR.

10

SHAFFER:

Objection.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Do you agree with me that fear

13

of physical injury will affect the numbers

14

reflected in the blood pressure reading of a

15

patient such as

16

MR.

this?
SHAFFER:

Objection.

17

A.

I

can't make that assumption.

18

Q.

I

am not asking you to make an

19

assumption.

I'm asking you for your opinion

20

about whether or not fear of physical injury

21

will increase somebody's blood pressure?

22

MR.

23

objection.

24

MR.

25

A.

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LEE:

Just note my

SHAFFER:

Objection.

I t will raise your blood
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ELISE HANLON
pressure.
Q.

3

Does a

blood pressure reading of

4

160 over 120 indicate that the patient is in

5

cardiac arrest?

6

MR.

Then his blood pressure would be

Q.

Then the answer is no,

zero.

9

10

Objection.

A.

7

8

SHAFFER:

it

doesn't indicate cardiac arrest?

11

A.

Correct.

12

Q.

Does i t indicate that there's a

13

possibility of cardiac arrest?

14

MR.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

15

A.

I

16

Q.

All right,

17

reading of a

18

and you take their blood pressure and i t ' s

19

160 over 120,

20

possibility that the person is going to die

21

of a

well,

white male,

if you take a

who is 34-years old

do you believe that i t ' s a

heart attack?
MR.

22
23

have no way to answer that.

A.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

Not knowing the patient and not

24

really knowing his medical history,

25

answer that.

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I

can't

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ELISE HANLON

1

Q.

2

So

the answer to my question is

3

no,

you wouldn't draw a

4

there's

5

because you don't have enough information,

6

right?

a

possibility of a

A.

7

conclusion that

I

heart attack,

don't know if

I

could answer

8

that.

9

his blood pressure being this high --

Can he go into cardiac arrest from

10

are other factors

11

you're asking me a

12

there

multifaceted.

I

can't answer

question that's

13

Q.

14

the street.

15

this business for

16

paramedic.

17

want to know whether or not i f you

18

blood pressure of a

19

34 years

20

reading of 160 over 120 indicate to you that

21

this person is at risk of a

22

or a

I'm not asking some person on
I'm asking you.

You've been in

23 years as an EMT and a

You have supervised both.

old,

does

I

take the

white male who is
this blood pressure

cardiac arrest

heart attack?
MR.

23

SHAFFER:

24

A.

Asked

and answered.

25

Objection.

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Is he at risk of a

heart attack,

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1

2

quite possibly.

3

heart attack.

4

that are under 34

Q.

5

There is no age limit on a
There are plenty of people
that have heart attacks.

Yeah,

but that might be

6

What I

7

blood pressure readings

8

160 over 120 indicate that there's

9

possibility of a

true.

want to know is whether or not if the
that we have here of
a

heart attack?

10

A.

Possibility.

11

Q.

Those numbers

12

possibility of a

indicate a

heart attack?

13

A.

It's a

14

Q.

In the event that you get a

possibility.

15

reading of 160 over 120 for a

16

is

17

addressing that situation?

34-years old,

what are the protocols for

18

A.

Transport to

19

Q.

Is

20

A.

On the BLS level,

21

transport to

22

Q.

23
24
25

white male who

the hospital.

that the only protocol?
yes,

oxygen,

the hospital.
What do you mean on the BLS

level?

A.

EMTs don't give medication other

than Aspirin for

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cardiac issues.

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Wouldn't i t be consistent with

Q.

3

sound practices to lie the patient down and

4

try to calm the patient down and take their

5

blood pressure reading again?
MR.

6
7

8
9

SHAFFER:

They took a

A.

Objection.
second blood

pressure.
You're not answering my

Q.

10

question.

11

over 120 for

12

the protocols

13

person down,

14

or ten minutes

15

reading again?

a

white male,

A.

wouldn't one of

suggest that you lie the
calm them down and then in five

MR.

16
17

My question is if you got 160

take their blood pressure

SHAFFER:

Objection.

We don't have a

protocol that

18

says lie the patient down and retake their

19

blood pressure.

20

protocol.

21
22

Q.

25

So your protocol is

the hospital period,
MR.

23
24

I t ' s not part of our

A.
protocol.

212-267-6868

take them to

right?

SHAFFER:

Objection.

There is no high blood pressure
His vital signs were taken.
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1

2

According to the paper his vital signs were

3

retaken.

4

says lay the patient down and retake his

5

blood pressure.

There is no written protocol that

Q.

6

Is

there a practice of sitting

7

or laying the patient down or getting the

8

patient in a more relaxed physical condition

9

and then retaking the person's blood

10

pressure?

MR.

11

A.

12

SHAFFER:

Objection.

You're asking for

is i t

13

practice when he gets removed to the

14

ambulance and he's on a

stretcher,

15

blood pressure retaken,

sure.

16

laying down,

17

Q.

no,

is his

Is he fully

he's sitting up.

You're not answering my
Lieutenant.

I t ' s very simple.

Is

18

question,

19

i t a practice when you take somebody's blood

20

pressure and they give you a blood pressure

21

reading of 160 over 120 for

22

a

23

practice of retaking that person's blood

24

pressure within a

25

thereafter after they've had a

somebody who is

white male who is 34-years old,

is

there a

few minutes shortly
chance to

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relax?
MR.

3

A.

4

5

SHAFFER:

Objection.

His blood pressure was

taken

several minutes after.

Q.

6

You and I

can read the document

7

until we're blue in the face.

8

answering my question.

9

of doing that?

A.

10

That's not

Is there a practice

They're required to

take two

So they take two sets

11

sets of vital signs.

12

of vital signs.

13

change his position if he is hypertensive.

14

There is no practice of changing his

15

position i f he is hypertensive.

Q.

16
17

Why is there a

practice to

requirement that

two vital signs be taken?

A.

That's the requirement that we

Q.

18

19

Is there a

So you don't know why that there

have.

20

21

is a

22

requirement that there be two vital

signs

taken?

23

A.

To see if there is a

24

Q.

Is

25

there a

change.

requirement that the

vital signs be taken from different arms?

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1

Q.

2
3

Do you know that officers from

ESU entered the apartment?

A.

4

I

don't know which officers,

5

what command they were from entered the

6

apartment.

Q.

7

8

You saw people from the NYPD

enter the apartment?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

You said to me that the EMTs

11

from 50E3 entered the apartment,

right?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

With you,

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

What's

16

A.

That's me.

17

Q.

What is C513?

18

A.

Conditions five one and three is

19

right?

the reference to C513?

the tour.

20

Q.

21

please?

22

A.

Can you explain that to me,

23

is

24

three is

25

Conditions is

the unit,

five one

the battalion area of the response and

Q.

212-267-6868

the time period of which we work.
And what time period were you?
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1

2
3

You were a paramedic yourself,

Q.
right?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

So,

is that the reason you

6

needed a

paramedic at the scene because they

7

have all

the equipment they needed?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

Do you recall how long out the

10
11

ETA was on the paramedics'
I

A.

arrival?

do not recall

the exact time

12

off the top of my head.

13

if you can get to the hospital in less time

14

than i t takes for

15

there,

16

Our protocol states

the paramedics to get

then go.

Q.

So based on that,

you believe

17

that the ETA of the paramedics was greater

18

than the time that i t would take to get to

19

the hospital?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Did the person in the apartment

22

get taken to the hospital under an emergency

23

situation?
MR.

24
25

A.

212-267-6868

I

SHAFFER:

Objection.

don't understand what you're
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1

rephrase your question.

2

Q.

3

Well,

was i t -- was

the patient

4

under the risk of some sort of serious

5

medical condition or life-threatening

6

condition at the time he was

7

hospital?

A.

8

9

taken to the

The EMTs on the scene deemed

that the patient was stable enough that

10

again,

our protocol is if the patient is

11

stable,

12

isn't life threatening.

13

a

that the transport to the hospital
So he was not under

life threatening condition.

Q.

14

I'm going to play the recording

15

that you listened to Thursday and I

16

some questions about that recording,

17

before we do that,

18

what I

19

is a

20

5799.

21

you had with the IAB?

I

have
but

just want to show you

am going to mark as Exhibit 67.

document Bates Stamped NYC5797
It's a

through

summary of the interview that

MR.

22

This

SHAFFER:

Just going to note

23

for

24

as confidential and this portion of the

25

transcript should be marked as

212-267-6868

the record that document is marked

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such and

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ELISE HANLON

1

2

separately bound.

3

MR.

SMITH:

Well,

we haven't

4

been separately bounding i t .

5

just been labeling confidential on the

6

top.

7

without separately bounding it?

9

Can we mark this as confidential

MR.

8

We have

SHAFFER:

No,

i t ' s supposed

to be separately bound and I

believe

10

that's what the confidentiality stip

11

contemplated when i t was entered into

12

by the parties.

13

agree with that portion,

14

stands now that's how i t ' s

15

be.
MR.

16

I

SMITH:

know you may not
but as i t
supposed to

All right,

well I'm

17

not going quibble with you about i t .

18

It

just seems to make a

19

to

just mark i t confidential without

20

having a

21

all

22

your right.

23

going to fight with you about i t .

24

leave that up to you,

25

have i t separately bound,

212-267-6868

lot more sense

separate binding,

insist on that,
I

but if you

that I

guess is

don't know.

I'm not
I'll

if you want to
we'll

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1

2

separately bounded and if you don't

3

really care,

4

reconsider,

5

as confidential the way the court

6

reporter indicated.
MR.

7

8

which I

would urge you to

then we will

SHAFFER:

just mark i t

Separately bound

is our preference.
MR.

9

10

SMITH:

(WHEREUPON,

Okay.

Confidential.

THE FOLLOWING

11

CONFIDENTIAL PORTION,

12

222,

13

COUNSEL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER

14

AND BOUND UNDER SEPARATE COVER

15

DESIGNATED CONFIDENTIAL.)

PAGES 219 THROUGH

WERE DESIGNATED CONFIDENTIAL BY

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

24
25
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ELISE HANLON

2
3
4
5
6

Q.

7

Just go back to

65 for a

8

which is

9

Going through that document for

second,

the PCR or the patient care report.
some detail

10

over the past hour so and you were witness

11

to a

12

this document.

13

also like to know whether or not there is

14

anything in the PCR that you believe is

15

indicated here as incorrect?

lot of the events that are set forth in
So with that backdrop,

16

MR.

17

objection.

18

A.

I

OSTERMAN:

I'd

mean,

Just note my

they documented that he

19

said no chest pains.

We were told that he

20

had chest pains.

21

whether that's a

22

I

23

know whether they did in the ambulance and

24

what the response was.

25

that.

You know,

I

don't know

correct statement or not.

didn't ask the patient himself and I

212-267-6868

I

don't

was not privy to

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1

Q.

2

Okay.

So you're indicating to

3

me that that's one area that may or may not

4

be correct,
A.

5
6

right?
I

don't know.

that's

the

indication.
Q.

7

Is

there anything else on this

8

document the facts

9

indicate maybe there is

10

Yes,

here on this

A.

12

something incorrect

form?
MR.

11

as you understand them

As

OSTERMAN:
I

Objection.

recall he was

inside the

13

ambulance when he walked downstairs

and this

14

document says he was outside the ambulance.

15

I

recall him being inside the ambulance.

Q.

16

Okay.

Thank you.

17

anything else that's set forth

18

document,

19

page,

20

Is

there

that you disagree with?

23

24

25

either on the first or the

second

that you believe may be incorrect or

MR.

21

22

in this

A.

OSTERMAN:

Not that's

Objection.

standing out in front

of me.

Q.

I'm just going to play the

recording that you listened to on Thursday.

212-267-6868

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1

2

MR.

SMITH:

This is from

3

plaintiff's production.

4

that's

5

and I

6

second.

7

i n v a s i on . . WMA .

identified as DS

It's a
-

DS.SO 31

will give you the full
31 October 2009

tape

title in a

home

8

I'm starting at 000.

9

(Whereupon,

10

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

11

SMITH:

I'm stopping this at

12

one minute and one second.

13

Q.

14

Lieutenant,

MR.

A.

19

the

SHAFFER:

Objection.

Yes.

17

18

this

recording that you listened to on Thursday?

15
16

is

MR.

Q.

SMITH:

Does this

I

will

rephrase i t .

sound like the

recording that you listened to on Thursday?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

When whoever i t was

that entered

22

the apartment and said let me see your

23

hands,

24

when those words were uttered to Officer

25

Schoolcraft?

212-267-6868

were you present in the apartment

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1
2

A.

No.

3

Q.

Did you hear those words

4
5

uttered,

other than on the tape recording?

A.

MR.

6
7

SMITH:

All right,

continuing with the recording.
(Whereupon,

8

9

No.

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

10

All right,

SMITH:

11

stopping i t at 117.

12

Q.

I'm

Did you hear on that day,

13

October 31,

the exchange that you

14

on the tape where the person in the

15

apartment said he took some Nyquil?

16

A.

I

don't remember,

17

Q.

All right,

I

just heard

no.

am going to

18

continue playing the recording,

just to sort

19

of be efficient with all of our time,

20

you let me know when i t is that you in the

21

recording believe you were first in the

22

apartment;

could

okay?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

All right,
(Whereupon,

25

212-267-6868

thank you.
a

tape recording was

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2

played.)
MR.

3

SMITH:

All right,

I'm

4

stopping the recording at two minutes

5

and 13 seconds.

6

Q.

Are you in the room by this

A.

I

7

time?

8
9

room.

I

don't remember I'm in the

mean,

I

heard them talking

him

10

talking to

the chief or the captain,

11

somebody in a

white shirt,

12

remember i f I

remember the conversation from

13

being in the room or in the

Q.

14

Okay,

but I

tape.

fair enough.

same request not --

don't

15

with the

16

your speculation about when you entered the

17

room,

18

you tell me when for

19

in the room?

20

A.

but listening to

21
22

I

So again,
don't want

the recording,

the first

can

time you're

Okay.
(Whereupon,

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

23

SMITH:

All right,

I'm

24

stopping the recording at two minutes

25

and 44

212-267-6868

seconds.
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1

Q.

2

Did you hear anybody say to

3

Officer Schoolcraft that somebody was

4

concerned about his

A.

5

I

safety or his wellbeing?

don't remember if we were in

6

the apartment or not.

7

we got in there.

8

Q.
A.

Again,

10

sounds.

11

Q.

don't recall when

Okay.

9

I

All

this point everything

right,

putting aside the

12

tape recording,

13

tell you before you entered the apartment

14

that there was

15

Schoolcraft's safety?

A.

16

did anybody at the

scene

concern about Officer

No.

17

MR.

SMITH:

18

recording at 244.
(Whereupon,

19

Resuming the

a

tape recording was

I

am stopping the

played.)

20

MR.

21

SMITH:

22

recording at 305 or 306.

23

A.

I

Q.

When you say we,

24
25

think we were in the room for

this.

212-267-6868

you mean you

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and the EMTs?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

When you say in the room,

5

mean at the doorsill

to

6

do you

the bedroom or do

you mean in the apartment?

7

A.

The doorsill

8

Q.

So there was

9
10
11
12
13
14

entered the apartment,
what kind of room,

to

the bedroom.
when you first

you're entering into

if you remember?

Very clustered.

A.

The whole

apartment was very cluttered.
Okay,

Q.

but what kind of a

room

was i t that you were entering into?
Hallway and then to

15

A.

16

think i t was

17

Q.

the left I

the bedroom.
How long were you in that first

18

room before you got to the

19

bedroom?

20

A.

21

think I

22

Q.

I

threshold of the
I

never went into --

I

don't

ever fully went into the bedroom.
No,

I

understand that.

You told

23

me you got to the threshold or the doorsill

24

of the bedroom?

25

A.

212-267-6868

Yes.
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1

Q.

2

3

Bow long were you in that room

at the threshold?

4

A.

I

5

Q.

Okay.

don't have no time.
So do I

understand you

6

to be saying around this

7

that you and the other EMTs are at the

8

threshold and you can hear what's being

9

said?

10

A.

time you believe

Yes.

11

MR.

12

(Whereupon,

13

Q.

Continuing at 306.
a

tape recording was

played.)

14

SMITH:

Did you hear anybody from the

15

New York City Police Department tell

16

person in the apartment that they wanted him

17

to go back to the 81st Precinct to

18

investigate why he left?

19
20
21

A.

It wasn't something I

the

was paying

attention to.

Q.

So sitting here today,

22

have a

23

heard those words,

you don't

recollection of whether or not you

24

A.

No,

25

Q.

Did you have any reason to doubt

212-267-6868

I

right?
don't recall.

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that those words weren't spoken?
MR.

3

SHAFFER:

Objection.

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

As of this point in the

6

recording,

7

appear to you to be acting in an emotionally

8

disturbed fashion?
MR.

9

10

at,

13

A.

What point are we

SMITH:

3.23.

Not a

MR.

--doesn't appear to be

SMITH:

All right,

continuing the recording at 323.
(Whereupon,

16

17

KRETZ:

acting like an EDP.

14
15

the person in the apartment

Nat?
MR.

11
12

does

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

18

SMITH:

I'm going to stop

19

the recording here at four minutes and

20

36 seconds.

21

Q.

As of this

time in the recording

22

are you s t i l l in the threshold of the

23

bedroom?

24

A.

I

25

Q.

All right,

212-267-6868

believe so.
as of that part that

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ELISE HANLON

2

I

3

seconds,

4

Officer Schoolcraft,

just stopped at four minutes and 36
was

the person in the apartment,

MR.

5

acting as an EDP?

SHAFFER:

6

A.

7

on the tape,

8

yelling at each other,

9

know,

10
11
12

15
16

in person i t appeared everybody
i t was loud.

You

acting agitated.

Q.

Be was acting agitated,

wasn't acting like an EDP,
MR.

A.

SHAFFER:

Then again,

degrees of EDP.

Q.

Q.

but he

right?
Objection.

there's different

Was he an EDP --

Lieutenant,
MR.

17
18

i t doesn't appear loud

was he acting like an EDP -- he was

13
14

Although,

Objection.

SHAFFER:

you told me
Let her finish.

You've told me that you have

19

experience with hundreds of EDPs and I'm

20

asking you a

21

in the recording,

22

about whether or not the person in the

23

apartment is a
MR.

24
25

simple question.

Q.

212-267-6868

As

this point

do you have an opinion

acting like an EDP?
SHAFFER:

Objection.

If you confine yourself to
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2

answering my questions,

3

l i t t l e earlier today.

A.

4

He was acting agitated.

5

acting uncooperative.

6

EDP,

He was

Does i t make him an

no.
Q.

7

we can all go home a

Did you see Officer Schoolcraft

8

approach any of the police department

9

personnel

10

there in a belligerent manner,

physically get in their face?

11

A.

I

did not see that.

12

Q.

Did you ever have any

13

discussions with anybody about the fact

14

Officer Schoolcraft,

15

apartment,
A.

the person in the

got in somebody's face?

17

No,

I

MR.

16

that

did not.

SMITH:

Continuing the

18

recording at four minutes and 36

19

seconds.
(Whereupon,

20

a

tape recording was

played.)

21
22

MR.

23
24

Q.

Stopping the

recording at 528.

25

we

SMITH:

Did you witness

the events

that

just heard on the tape?

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A.

2

Did I

didn't think

physically witness

3

I

they did anything.

4

in the room.

5

Q.

Were you s t i l l at the

6

A.

Still where I

them --

talking to my crew--

was.

7

was

8

I

was not

threshold?

Whether I

they're

interactions don't concern me.

9

Q.

Whose interactions

10

A.

The police department's

11

interaction with the patient and what his

12

issues are with the police department don't

13

concern me,

14

concern his patient care.

15

care what the conversation was.

16

Q.

don't concern my crew,

As

I

don't

don't really

of this point in the

17

recording,

18

be concerned about Officer Schoolcraft's

19

medical

20

A.

21
22
23
24

528,

did you have any reason to

condition?
I

didn't know what his medical

condition was.

Q.

So you didn't have any reason to

be concerned about i t ,
A.

25

Correct.
MR.

212-267-6868

right?

SMITH:

All right,

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1

2

continuing the recording at 528.
(Whereupon,

3
4

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

5

SMITH:

I'm going to stop

6

the recording at 641.

7

Q.

8

talk on his

9

A.

Did you see Officer Schoolcraft
cell or other phone?
No,

I

10

MR.

SMITH:

11

recording at 641.

12
13

did not.

(Whereupon,

Continue the

a

tape recording was

played.)

14

MR.

SMITH:

15

recording at 826.

16

Q.

I'm stopping the

During this eight-minute period,

17

did you have any conversations with anybody

18

from NYPD while you were in that foyer or

19

adjoining room?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Did you hear Officer Schoolcraft

22
23

say he wasn't feeling well?
A.

I

didn't hear i t .

24

MR.

25

recording at 826.

212-267-6868

SMITH:

Continue the

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ELISE HANLON
(Whereupon,

2

3

a

tape recording was

I

am stopping at

played.)
MR.

4
5

842.

6

Q.

SMITH:

7
8

9

voices

Did you recognize any of the
that you

A.

we heard,

No,

just heard?
I

but he

didn't recognize the voice
just said I

have an

10

ambulance downstairs.

11

there yet,

12

between the commanding officers sounded

13

familiar.

14

timeframe was.

15
16

Q.

Maybe we weren't up

but the conversation that he had

So I'm not sure what the

Are you telling me that you

weren't upstairs during this period of time?

17

A.

Now I'm unsure.

18

Q.

And you're unsure because you

19

overheard somebody say there is an ambulance

20

downstairs?

21

A.

22
23

Yeah,

I'm unsure whether we were

there at that point.

Q.

I

hear what you're saying.

I

24

just want to know is

25

saying you're unsure is because you heard

212-267-6868

the reason why you're

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1

2

somebody say we have an ambulance

3

downstairs?

4

A.

That question--

5

me question whether we were

6

that's making

that transpired.

7

Q.

Okay.

Is

there before

there anything else

8

that's making you question whether or not

9

you or

the other EMT crew were

10

those words

11

A.

12
13

there before

were uttered?
No.
MR.

SMITH:

All

right,

continuing at 842.

14

(Whereupon a

tape recording was

15

played.)

16

Q.

Do you recognize

17

A.

Can you?

18
19

MR.
back.

20
21

SMITH:

Sure I

Going back panel
(Whereupon,

that voice?

a

to

can bring i t
900 or 901.

tape recording was

played.)

22

MR.

23

Q.

I'm pausing i t at

1027.

24

SMITH:

25

Do you recognize

the voice of

the person speaking to Officer Schoolcraft?

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ELISE HANLON

1

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Who is that?

4

A.

Sal Sangianetti.

5

Q.

How long had you known Sal

6
7

Sangianetti as of October 2009?

A.

MR.

8
9

10
11

Twenty years.
SMITH:

Continuing at

1027

Q.

Before I

start,

do you recall

Sal approaching Officer Schoolcraft?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Where were you when Sal

14

approached Officer Schoolcraft?

15

A.

Behind him at some distance.

16

Q.

At what distance?

17

A.

He walked into the room,

I

was

18

somewhere again,

19

of the room.

20

Q.

21

his bedroom?

22

A.

I

23

Q.

How many feet were you from the

24
25

the doorway or at the edge

Did you cross the threshold into

don't know.

patient when Sal was asking you questions?

A.

212-267-6868

I

don't know.

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1

2

3

Q.

You have no way of measuring how

many feet you were from the patient?

4

A.

I

5

Q.

Was

6

don't know.
the patient sitting or

standing?

7

A.

I

8

Q.

What was he sitting on?

9

A.

I

10

believe he was

sitting.

believe i t was a

MR.

SMITH:

bed.

All right,

11

continuing at 1027

12

Q.

Where is the EMT at this point?

13

A.

I'm not sure if she's in the

14

room or she's behind me.

15

she is.

16
17

MR.

don't know where

All right,

continuing at 1027.

18
19

SMITH:

I

(Whereupon,

a

tape recording was

I

am stopping at

played.)
MR.

20
21

1121.

22

Q.

SMITH:

23

Is Sal taking Schoolcraft's

vitals at this point?

24

A.

I

25

Q.

So while Officer Schoolcraft is

212-267-6868

believe so.

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1

2

sitting on his bed,

3

pressure,

4

A.

Sal is taking his blood

right?
I

can't be sure what the

5

timeframe is of this conversation and his

6

blood pressure.

I

don't know.

7

Q.

That's my question.

8

A.

I

9

Q.

Is

10

A.

I

11

Q.

--

don't

-don't know.
Sal taking Officer

12

Schoolcraft's blood pressure during this

13

conversation that we

14

MR.

just were listening to?

SHAFFER:

Objection.

15

A.

I

16

Q.

Do you think the tone of the

don't know.

17

NYPD chief's conversation with Officer

18

Schoolcraft was -such that would elevator

19

someone's blood pressure?
MR.

20
21

A.

22
23

Objection.

can't answer that question.

MR.

SMITH:

1121,

continuing

with the recording.

24
25

I

SHAFFER:

(Whereupon,

a

tape recording was

played.)

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1

2

A.

He's

3

Q.

Did you hear at 1142

4

taking i t there.
the sound

of the blood pressure being taken?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

That was

7

chief

9

told him he was being suspended?

A.

8

just seconds before the

The blood pressure was after he

said i t .

Q.

10

He was

told he was going to e

11

suspended and then you could hear the sound

12

of a

13

blood pressure machine pumping,
A.

Yes.

14

MR.

15

(Whereupon,

16

right?

SMITH:

Continuing at 1142.
a

tape recording was

played.)

17

MR.

18

Q.

I'm stopping at

1205.

19

SMITH:

Did you hear Sal say that

20

Officer Schoolcraft's blood pressure was 160

21

over 120?

22

A.

To the best of my memory,

23

Q.

Do you think

24

circumstances

25

in at that time with all

212-267-6868

yes.

that the

that Officer Schoolcraft was
these officers

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standing in the apartment and him being told

3

he was going to be suspended contributed to

4

the high blood pressure reading?

5

MR.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

6

MR.

OSTERMAN:

7

MR.

KRETZ:

8

MR.

KOSTER:

9

MR.

LEE:

Objection.

Objection.
Objection.

Objection.

10

A.

Possibility.

11

Q.

What further

I

don't know.

information would

12

you require in order to know whether or not

13

those circumstances would elevate somebody's

14

blood pressure?

15

MR.

KRETZ:

16

MR.

SHAFFER:

A.

17

Objection.
Objection.

I t would depend on the person.

18

It depends on the history.

19

Not everybody's blood pressure gets

20

elevated.

21

You're asking me to make an assumption that

22

I

23
24
25

I

I t would depend.

can't make that assumption.

cannot.

Q.

The assumption is what;

assumption am I

A.

212-267-6868

what

asking you to make?

You are asking me to make an
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2

assumption that the interaction caused his

3

blood pressure to rise.

Q.

4

No.

No.

No.

in your experience for

I'm asking you

5

if,

the past 23 years

6

as an EMT and as a paramedic for

7

department and before that as an EMT of

8

private ambulances,

9

the circumstances

the fire

in your experience would

just as you

just heard

10

them with all

these people standing in his

11

apartment and him being told that he was

12

being suspended,

13

consistent with somebody's blood pressure

14

being elevated?

15

MR.

LEE:

16

MR.

SHAFFER:

17

MR.

KRETZ:

18

MR.

OSTERMAN:

were those circumstances

19

A.
Q.

Well,

Objection.
Objection.
Objection.

Maybe.

20

Objection.

21
22

MR.
A.

I

what would i t depend on?

SHAFFER:

Objection.

can't reiterate i t enough

23

times.

24

would depend on the circumstances,

i t would

25

depend on history.

that

212-267-6868

I t would depend on the person,

I

can't answer

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ELISE HANLON

1

2

question.

3

pressures.

4

5

Q.

I

am not an expert on blood

Bow many times have you taken

somebody's blood person?
MR.

6

SHAFFER:

Objection.

7

A.

A lot.

8

Q.

Over 1,000 I'd say,

9

A.

Probably.

10
11

12

MR.

Q.

Who is an expert on blood

MR.

A.

15
16

Objection.

pressure i f you're not?

13

14

SHAFFER:

right?

SHAFFER:

Objection.

Consult with a
MR.

SMITH:

physician.

All right,

1205

continuing with the recording.

17

(Whereupon,

18

Q.

tape recording was

played.)

19

a

20

Is

that your voice in the

background saying Sal,

Sal?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

What are saying to Sal?

23

A.

I

24

Q.

What is he saying back to you?

25

A.

I

212-267-6868

have no idea.

have no idea.
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2

Q.

Why were you calling out to him?

3

A.

I

4
5

years ago,
Q.

don't remember.

five years.
And listening to the tape

6

recording you don't have a

7

about why you were saying Sal,

8

A.

I

SMITH:

11

Q.

tape recording was

played.)

12

Sal to him?

Continuing at 1215.

(Whereupon a

10

recollection

don't know.

MR.

9

It was four

What's

13

city-wide,

14

the reference to

do you know what that's a

reference to?

15

A.

The radio.

16

Q.

Is

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

What's i t relating to?

19

A.

Somebody else's

20

Q.

Does having a

that relating to

this

job?

job.

pulse rate of 115

21

consistent with the circumstances that were

22

facing Officer Schoolcraft?

23

24
25

A.

Possibly.

I

don't know what his

normal blood pressure is or pulse is.

Q.

212-267-6868

If you look at Exhibit 65,
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ELISE HANLON

1

2

indicates

3

is

4

taken by Sal as

5

MR.

that his pulse was

that the

taken at 21:45,

time that the pulse was being
indicated in the recording?
SHAFFER:

6

A.

Should be.

7

Q.

So

Objection.

8

the documents

9

error,

the pulse rate here
165 and i t ' s 120,

that's an

right?

10

MR.

OSTERMAN:

11

MR.

SHAFFER:
I

Objection.
Objection.

12

A.

Okay.

13

Q.

Do you agree with me

14

says in

didn't write i t .
that i t ' s

an error?

15

MR.

OSTERMAN:

16

MR.

SHAFFER:

17

A.

Q.

Is

Objection.

Yes.

18

Objection.

the difference between a

19

pulse rate of 115 and 120 a

20

difference?
MR.

21

SHAFFER:

significant

Objection.

22

A.

Not significant.

23

Q.

Is

24

A.

I t ' s five beats.

25

i t insignificant?
I t depends on

how you add i t or multiplied or how you felt

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1

2

them.

3

within five.

4

Q.

Maybe you took i t and within ten,

5

forth

6

Well,

but the information set

in the PCR is

isn't it?
MR.

7

A.

8

10

SHAFFER:

Objection.

Yes.
MR.

9

supposed to be right,

SMITH:

All right,

continuing at 1230.
(Whereupon,

11

12

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

13

Q.

14

SMITH:

Stopping at 1303.

After Sal said he's going to go

15

to

the hospital,

16

going to give him therapy,

17

Did you make

18

A.

I

19

Q.

You didn't hear that.

we're

what did he say?

that out?
--

MR.

20

what did he say,

SMITH:

21

to go back to 1300,

22

All right,

I'm going

that out for me.

23
24

(Whereupon,

see if you can make

a

tape recording was

played.)
MR.

25

212-267-6868

SMITH:

So going to go back

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1

2

to

3

Q.

1250

and start there
After he

4

to

the hospital,

5

trying

6

what that

to

Sal

or 1249.

says he's
says

going to go

something and I'm

see i f you can help me discern
is;

okay?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Did he

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And that's

9

12

say oh,

we're

taking him

3 4?

a

reference

to

Jamaica?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Thirty four

15

is

a

code for

Jamaica?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Why,

18

Sal

19

to your understanding,

say they were going

to

Jamaica?

20

MR.

OSTERMAN:

21

MR.

SHAFFER:

A.

22

23

ago,

Q.

25

computer up

212-267-6868

to

Objection.
Objection.

We had this discussion hours

closest hospital,

24

take him

did

Okay,
in

the

first

choice.

but you didn't have a
room,

did you?

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1

MR.

2

SHAFFER:

Objection.

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

Did you know that you were going

5

to take him to Jamaica before you went into

6

the apartment?

A.

7

I

personally,

no.

No,

I

did

8

not.

9

computer recommendations come up in the

Whether they again,

whether the

10

computer and they pulled i t up before they

11

came up and i t said they were the first

12

recommending u n i t - - hospital,

13

MR.

14

(Whereupon,

16

Q.

a

all right.

So

tape recording was

played.)

17

Okay,

don't know.

starting at 1301.

15

SMITH:

I

18

Is

that your voice in the

background?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

What are you saying?

21

A.

The location of the hospital.

22

Q.

What hospital?

23

A.

North Shore Forest Bills.

24

Q.

So you heard Officer Schoolcraft

25

say he wanted to go to Forest Bills?

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2

A.

Apparently I

3

Q.

No,

did.

i t ' s not apparently.

Did

4

you hear him say that he wanted to go to

5

Forest Hills?
MR.

6
7

A.

8

recall,

9

Q.

Objection.

recall.

10

SHAFFER:

As per the tape I
i t ' s five years ago,

Okay,

all right.

did ..
I

Did I

didn't

So there is a

11

difference and i t ' s important that the

12

record be clear about what i t is you're

13

testifying about.

14

remember hearing or saying something five

15

years ago,

16

you do recall and don't remember,

17

agree with me the tape says or what you

18

don't agree with me what the tape says;

19

okay?

20

21
22

A.

but I

I

I

understand if you don't

am trying to find out what

agree that i t was

what you

said in my

presence in the room.

Q.

And you agree with me that while

23

you were in the room you were providing

24

information about where Forest Hills was,

25

right?

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1
2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And you were providing that

4
5

information to Sal,
A.

I

right?

don't know

6

i t is.

7

he knows where

information to.

8
9
10

I

Q.

I

was providing the

Were you providing the

information so that i t could be used to

take

the patient to Forest Hills?
MR.

11

12

don't know who

A.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

It could have been a

13

asked me.

14

cop that

know who asked me.
MR.

15

16

It could have been --

SMITH:

All

I

don't

right.

1316

continuing.

17

(Whereupon a

18

played.)

19

Q.

tape recording was

All right,

was

20

think Jamaica would be a

21

that you saying I

better choice than

Forest Hills?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Why were you saying that?

24

A.

Just past experience,

25

being a

patient their triage system is more

212-267-6868

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Page 251
ELISE HANLON

1

2

efficient,

3

trauma center,

4

just a bigger hospital.

5

facilities.

6

Q.

it's a

cardiac center,

it's a

i t ' s a psych center,

it's

It has more

So the patient hadn't complained

7

about anything,

8

right,

9

other than not feeling well,

correct?

at that time point;

isn't that

10

A.

That is correct.

11

Q.

At this point he was wasn't

12

acting in an emotionally disturbed manner,

13

was he?

14
15
16
17

MR.

A.

SHAFFER:

Objection.

While we were in the room,

no,

he was not.

Q.

As of this point in the tape,

18

wasn't acting as an emotionally disturbed

19

person,

he

right?
MR.

20

SHAFFER:

he was not.

Objection.

21

A.

No,

22

Q.

So if the patient asked to go to

23

Forest Hills,

why wouldn't you abide by that
I

24

'·

I.

request?
MR.

25

212-267-6868

SHAFFER:

Objection.

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1

ELISE HANLON

2

MR.

3

Q.

I

will rephrase

that.

4

SMITH:

5

You heard Officer Schoolcraft

asking to be taken to Forest Hills,

right?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

You heard yourself saying that

8

he should go to Jamaica,

right?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Why isn't the patient entitled

11

to make the decision about where to go?

A.

12

Given the events of why we were

13

there,

14

many police officers were there,

15

fact

16

and screaming back and forth,

17

uncooperative,

18

was nothing wrong with you.

19

completely being honest with us or he was

20

denial of what was going on with him,

21

view was

22

for him.

23

24
25

I

Q.
there,
A.

212-267-6868

given the events of the fact of how

guess,

given the

just generally of the yelling
being

you took Nyquil,

that Jamaica was a

but there

Maybe he wasn't
in

my

better choice

Because there was a

psych ward

right?
Yes.
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ELISE HANLON

1

Q.

2

And that's the only reason?

3

MR.

KOSTER:

4

MR.

OSTERMAN:

A.

5

Objection.

Not the only reason.

Number

6

one,

7

a

8

they're a

9

needed and they have a psych facility.

10

I

Objection.

believe closer to his house,

cardiac center,
full

12
13

ER,

they have more a

11

MR.

A.

they're a

they're

trauma center,

they have a

C-port if
So

-SHAFFER:

Services.

Services than North Shore Forest

Hills does.

14

MR.

SMITH:

I'd appreciate i t ,

15

Counsel,

i f you wouldn't supply answers

16

for

17

improper to be doing that.

the witness.

MR.

18

Okay.

SHAFFER:

I t ' s really

Call

19

don't really care anymore,

20

have a

21

call the

judge.

Nat.

problem with my actions,

I

You
you can

judge.

MR.

22

the

SMITH:

23

recording at 1329.

24

(Whereupon,

Continue the

25

a

tape recording was

played.)

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ELISE HANLON

1

Q.

2
3

6

7
8

that your voice asking how

old he is?
A.

No.

Q.

4

5

Is

Sal asked him how old he

You didn't hear yourself asking

was.

how old he was also?

A.

I

-- I

MR.

9

didn't hear.

SMITH:

Continuing at 1355.
I

(Whereupon,

10
11

Q.

tape recording was

played.)

12

a

Who was speaking at that point

13

where Officer Schoolcraft asks about whether

14

or not information can be shared?

15

A.

That was me who said his blood

16

pressure to someone.

17

the other room asked.

18
19

Q.

One of the officers in

So another police officer asked

you what his blood pressure was?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And you told him?

22

A.

I

23

Q.

Was

that proper?

MR.

SHAFFER:

24
25

A.

212-267-6868

did say i t ,

Not a

yes.

Objection.

HIPAA violation.

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