Windsor v. The United States Of America
Filing
82
DECLARATION of Roberta A. Kaplan in Support re: 28 MOTION for Summary Judgment.. Document filed by Edith Schlain Windsor. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D, # 5 Exhibit E)(Kaplan, Roberta)
EXHIBIT A
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-------------------------------------EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR, in her
capacity as Executor of the Estate
of CLARA SPYER,
Plaintiff,
-against-
10-CV-8435
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendant.
-------------------------------------(Caption continued on next page.)
DEPOSITION OF GEORGE A. CHAUNCEY, Ph.D.
Tuesday, July 12, 2011
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
Page 25
1
G. Chauncey
2
the family.
3
published in the local papers and the pamphlets
4
that it distributed door to door and so forth.
5
So I would call it demeaning stereotypes and
6
inflammatory rhetoric used by that particular
7
organization.
8
And it did this in newspaper ads
Take another example.
In 1992, I
9
believe it was called Coloradoans Against Special
10
Rights, but I need to double check that name, was
11
established in Colorado to enact Amendment 2, a
12
state constitutional amendment that would have
13
overturned existing protections, legislative
14
protections against discrimination against gay
15
people in Denver, Boulder, a couple other places
16
in Colorado, and have prohibited the government
17
from enacting any other such protections
18
legislatively or by regulation.
19
And the group that campaigned for that
20
was connected to groups that campaigned in
21
similar campaigns in other states and cities to
22
overturn such laws, and they distributed door to
23
door and played on churches -- played in churches
24
videos with names like "The Gay Agenda," "Gay
25
Rights/Special Rights," that again demonized
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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G. Chauncey
2
homosexuals as child molesters, as people who
3
engaged in the most startlingly strange and
4
disgusting seeming kinds of sexual behavior, who
5
were a wealthy class, privileged class who didn't
6
need these rights and who threatened children.
7
8
9
10
So, those would be two examples.
Q.
Can you give any examples of anti-gay
groups, contemporary anti-gay groups?
A.
Well, today those groups would include
11
Focus on the Family, the American Family
12
Association, Traditional Values Coalition.
13
Groups of that sort that have organized -- the
14
National Organization For Marriage -- which have
15
organized around the country to pass
16
constitutional amendments prohibiting same-sex
17
couples from getting married.
18
some examples.
19
Q.
Those would be
Is the Church of Latter Day Saints an
20
anti-gay organization?
21
MS. KAPLAN:
22
MR. DUGAN:
23
MS. KAPLAN:
24
25
A.
You mean the Mormons?
Yes.
Objection to form.
Well, I guess I would want to say that
the Church of Latter Day Saints has certainly
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
Page 29
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G. Chauncey
2
MR. DUGAN:
3
MS. KAPLAN:
4
5
Today.
Objection to form but you
can answer.
A.
Well, again, your question is still a
6
little vague to me, I have to admit.
7
attempt an answer.
8
But I will
I will go in one direction.
I think that there is a difference
9
between a group seeking a tax break which might
10
be looked upon favorably at one point and then
11
get attention and be portrayed unfavorably at
12
another point and a group of people who are being
13
denied fundamental civil rights.
14
I think that in the case of gay and
15
lesbian Americans, we have seen in the last
16
decade really just an extraordinary degree to
17
which their basic rights have been subject to the
18
vicissitudes of public opinion, with -- since the
19
seventies, a large number of cases in which their
20
civil rights have been put to the vote in popular
21
referenda and, something like in three quarters
22
of the cases, have been taken away, or in just
23
the last decade you have seen 29 states enact
24
constitutional amendments which write in gay and
25
lesbian inequality into the fundamental law of
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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1
2
G. Chauncey
the states.
3
It is hard to think of many other
4
groups that have been subject to the vicissitudes
5
of public opinion in quite that way.
6
Q.
So when you are talking about civil
7
rights that are subject to the whims of public
8
opinion you have in mind things like marriage,
9
housing --
10
A.
Freedom from discrimination.
Now, we
11
can look in a longer duration and see for a long
12
time black civil rights were subject to the
13
vicissitudes of public opinion and were, even
14
after emancipation, were severely curtailed by
15
legislation across the south and Supreme Court
16
rulings, until a point when the courts said that
17
actually segregation of the schools is
18
unconstitutional.
19
When the court, the Supreme Court said
20
denying the freedom to marry to an interracial
21
couple is unconstitutional, the court said that
22
at a time when the vast majority of white
23
Americans -- and I think it is something like
24
90 percent of white southerners did not believe
25
that interracial couples should have the right to
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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G. Chauncey
2
There were crackdowns in Boise, Idaho and Miami.
3
It would just go on and on.
4
precise number.
5
Q.
6
7
I can't give you a
Were there some regions of the country
that were not involved in these crackdowns?
A.
I am unaware of regions through most
8
of the 20th century, certainly the mid 20th
9
century, which I am talking about here, in which
10
11
this did not happen.
Q.
Turning to paragraph 12 on the same
12
page, page 5 of Exhibit 2?
13
first sentence, "Private hostility and
14
discrimination, often encouraged by government
15
officials, has had a similarly profound and
16
enduring negative effect on lesbians and gay men
17
in American society."
18
You write in that
Is there any way to evaluate how
19
widespread this private hostility and
20
discrimination is and was?
21
22
23
MS. KAPLAN:
Objection to form.
You
can answer.
A.
Well, again it is difficult to give
24
you precise numbers here, but I will give you two
25
examples of this.
As I say in the sentence,
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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G. Chauncey
2
private hostility and discrimination was often
3
encouraged by government officials.
4
example of this is that in President Eisenhower's
5
executive order in 1953, he not only banned
6
homosexuals from serving in civilian as well as
7
military agencies of the government but required
8
companies that had federal contracts to ferret
9
out and discharge their homosexual employees.
And one
10
And at that time, early --
11
significantly, during the cold war, Korean war,
12
et cetera -- about 20 percent of American
13
companies had contracts with the federal
14
government, so they were required by this law to
15
do this.
16
It was just taken as a matter of
17
course on the part of most lesbians and gay men
18
in this period that except for a handful of
19
professions and job niches, they had to be very
20
careful to hide their homosexuality because they
21
would lose their jobs if their employers learned
22
that they were gay.
23
The most horrifying example I heard
24
was someone talking about a close friend of his
25
whose partner of many years was dying from a
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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G. Chauncey
2
brain tumor and he was caring for him and he
3
could never tell his employers what was going on
4
and why he was sometimes missing days at work
5
because he knew he would lose his job if he did
6
so.
7
Q.
I think you mentioned there were some
8
professions where gays and lesbians could be
9
open.
10
Which professions were those?
A.
Again, "be open" is a complicated word
11
in this context.
12
professions that were stereotypically associated
13
with gay men or lesbians, which typically were
14
low prestige, low income professions.
15
waiter, low-level clerical work, being a sales
16
clerk at a department store were some of the
17
professions where people felt -- they still
18
typically wouldn't want to let their customers
19
know that they were gay, but often they didn't
20
deal with the public, as it were, and they could
21
get by.
22
There were a handful of
Being a
But certainly of the many -- at this
23
point I have interviewed more than 180 older gay
24
men, and pretty consistently they felt that there
25
was a ceiling on how far they could progress if
George A. Chauncey, Ph. D.
July 12, 2011
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G. Chauncey
2
homosexual as an individual and to the growing
3
visibility of those individuals, began to
4
classify and discriminate against certain of its
5
citizens on the basis of their status or identity
6
as homosexuals."
7
When you use the term or the phrase
8
"hostility to same-sex conduct," is that the same
9
as hostility to gays or homosexuals?
10
11
MS. KAPLAN:
A.
Objection to form.
Well, as I have tried to say, the
12
category of homosexual or heterosexual, gay
13
people or straight people didn't exist in the
14
same way before, so there was certainly a long
15
history of hostility to the behavior that would
16
come to be identified with and seen as
17
characteristic of the people that would come to
18
be known as homosexuals or gay people.
19
So, that's the longer tradition.
But
20
as I have said here, it was in the 20th century
21
that the government began to classify and
22
discriminate against certain of its citizens on
23
the basis of their status as homosexuals.
24
that drew on a longer history of vilification but
25
it took a distinctive form in the 20th century.
Again,
Name of Cases:
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
EDITH SCHLAIN WINDSOR,
in her capacity as Executor of the Estate of THEA CLARA SPYER,
Plaintiff,
v.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendant.
(10 Civ. 8435) (BSJ) (JCF)
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT
JOANNE PEDERSEN & ANN MEITZEN, GERALD V. PASSARO II, LYNDA
DEFORGE & RAQUEL ARDIN, JANET GELLER & JOANNE MARQUIS,
SUZANNE & GERALDINE ARTIS, BRADLEY KLEINERMAN & JAMES GEHRE,
and DAMON SAVOY & JOHN WEISS,
Plaintiffs,
v.
OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER, in his official
capacity as the Secretary of the Treasury, and HILDA L. SOLIS, in her official capacity
as the Secretary of Labor, MICHAEL J. ASTRUE, in his official capacity as the
Commissioner of the Social Security Administration, UNITED STATES POSTAL
SERVICE, JOHN E. POTTER, in his official capacity as The Postmaster General of the
United States of America, DOUGLAS H. SHULMAN, in his official capacity as the
Commissioner of Internal Revenue, ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as
United States Attorney General, JOHN WALSH, in his official capacity as Acting
Comptroller of the Currency, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Defendants.
(310-CV-1750) (VLB)
Date of Deposition:
Tuesday, July 12, 2011
Name of Witness:
George Chauncey, Ph.D.
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
I wish to make the following changes, for the following reasons:
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6:19
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“Vicki”
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“Vickie”
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“plaintiffs”
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“plaintiff”
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“American history since 1919; courses on American”
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“American history since 1919; also courses on American”
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“in the United States, courses on the history of”
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“in the United States, and courses on the history of”
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CHANGE FROM:
“for deposition preparation for the deposition.”
CHANGE TO:
“for preparation for the deposition.”
2
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
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“synonymous”
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“synonymously”
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“content to homosociality. So that American”
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“content to homosociality. American society”
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“this subject I wouldn’t say that every single”
CHANGE TO:
“this subject. I wouldn’t say that every single”
REASON:
Typographical error
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“alone between mid 1920’s and mid-1960’s”
CHANGE TO:
“alone between the mid-1920’s and mid-1960’s.”
REASON:
Transcription and typographical error
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23:11
CHANGE FROM:
“as second class citizens by denying the right to”
CHANGE TO:
“as second class citizens by denying them the right to”
3
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Transcription error
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24:3
CHANGE FROM:
“courts to decide what they may wish to about this”
CHANGE TO:
“courts to decide what they may wish to do about this”
REASON:
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25:8–10
CHANGE FROM:
“I believe it was called Coloradoans Against Special Rights, but I
need to double check that name,”
CHANGE TO:
“Colorado for Family Values”
REASON:
Witness advised he would confirm the group’s name and he did.
PAGE LINE:
27:25
CHANGE FROM:
“it was engaged”
CHANGE TO:
“it has engaged”
REASON:
Transcription error
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29:24
CHANGE FROM:
“write in gay”
CHANGE TO:
“write gay”
REASON:
Clarification
PAGE LINE:
31:5
CHANGE FROM:
“have been allow to.”
4
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
CHANGE TO:
“have been allowed to marry.”
REASON:
Clarification
PAGE LINE:
34:21
CHANGE FROM:
“Leviticus,”
CHANGE TO:
“Leviticus’s”
REASON:
Transcription error
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36:17
CHANGE FROM:
“accustomed to road shows, but in these days they”
CHANGE TO:
“accustomed to road shows, but in those days they”
REASON:
Transcription error
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37:5
CHANGE FROM:
“I have think you touched on this”
CHANGE TO:
“I think you have touched on this”
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
38:20–21
CHANGE FROM:
“clippings of crackdowns. And so they both published”
CHANGE TO:
“clippings of crackdowns. And so they published”
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
42:10–11
5
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
CHANGE FROM:
“In the 1990’s many clergy condemned and still condemn
homosexuality as sinful. The”
CHANGE TO:
“In the 1990s, many clergy condemned (and still condemn)
homosexuality as sinful. The”
REASON:
Typographical error
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43:10
CHANGE FROM:
“God’s”
CHANGE TO:
“God has”
REASON:
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44:13
CHANGE FROM:
“rights of that equality”
CHANGE TO:
“rights or that equality”
REASON:
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48:11–12
CHANGE FROM:
“intermeshed. There is some thought that the”
CHANGE TO:
“intermeshed -- there is some thought that the”
REASON:
Transcription error
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51:4
CHANGE FROM:
“you know,”
CHANGE TO:
“even though it”
REASON:
Transcription error
6
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
PAGE LINE:
51:5
CHANGE FROM:
“conduct. It was”
CHANGE TO:
“conduct – it was”
REASON:
Clarification
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57:16
CHANGE FROM:
“of World War”
CHANGE TO:
“in World War”
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
52:22
CHANGE FROM:
“same paragraph, you write, ‘Between the 1920’s and the 1950’s
the government, drawing on long’”
CHANGE TO:
“same paragraph, you write, ‘Between the 1920s and the 1950s,
the government, drawing on long’
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
63:3
CHANGE FROM:
“who was psychological better adjusted. And no”
CHANGE TO:
“who was psychologically better adjusted. And no”
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
66:18–21
CHANGE FROM:
You say that “ […]”
CHANGE TO:
Omit quotation marks.
REASON:
This is a paraphrase of the actual text.
7
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
PAGE LINE:
67:11
CHANGE FROM:
“I have mentioned. And so there was much more”
CHANGE TO:
“I have mentioned. And so there was a much more”
REASON:
Transcription error
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67:13
CHANGE FROM:
“that the”
CHANGE TO:
“why the”
REASON:
Clarification
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68:20
CHANGE FROM:
“campaigns and that”
CHANGE TO:
“campaigns, in that”
REASON:
Transcription error
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69:4
CHANGE FROM:
“demonization and became an occasion for”
CHANGE TO:
“demonization and it became an occasion for”
REASON:
Transcription error
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74:16–17
CHANGE FROM:
“Polling data suggests the magnitude of the shift. In 1985 only a
quarter of”
CHANGE TO:
“Polling data suggest the magnitude of the shift. In 1985, only a
quarter of”
8
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
74:20
CHANGE FROM:
“gay and more than half believed that they did not”
CHANGE TO:
“gay, and more than half believed that they did not”
REASON:
Transcription error
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76:6
CHANGE FROM:
“camp”
CHANGE TO:
“camps”
REASON:
Transcription error
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76:9
CHANGE FROM:
“accepted. It is very regionally and by religion”
CHANGE TO:
“accepted. It varies regionally and by religion”
REASON:
Typographical error
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76:19
CHANGE FROM:
“has been relative more openness, less policing,”
CHANGE TO:
“has been relatively more openness, less policing,”
REASON:
Transcription error
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78:12
CHANGE FROM:
“can be healed. NARTH also lectures partners with”
CHANGE TO:
“can be ‘healed.’ NARTH also lectures, partners with”
9
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Transcription error.
PAGE LINE:
79:21
CHANGE FROM:
“homosexuals to be disordered in some way, a”
CHANGE TO:
“homosexuals to be disordered in some way, based on a”
REASON:
Transcription error
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83:24
CHANGE FROM:
“And so, their discrimination has taken”
CHANGE TO:
“And so, discrimination has taken”
REASON:
Transcription error
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84:19
CHANGE FROM:
“meant and who was”
CHANGE TO:
“meant and who it was”
REASON:
Transcription Error
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87:7
CHANGE FROM:
“respectful”
CHANGE TO:
“respectable”
REASON:
Transcription error
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88:11
CHANGE FROM:
“beginning of the 20th century there was much more”
CHANGE TO:
“beginning of the 20th century, it was much more”
10
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Transcription error
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91:13
CHANGE FROM:
“decision, which was significant, to overturn the”
CHANGE TO:
“decision, which was significant, in overturning the”
REASON:
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“at any given”
CHANGE TO:
“in the present”
REASON:
Clarification
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94:19
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“generic.”
CHANGE TO:
“generic term.”
REASON:
Transcription error
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94:20
CHANGE FROM:
“‘Fifty years ago no state had a gay rights law’”
CHANGE TO:
“Fifty years ago no state had a gay rights law”
REASON:
Omit quotation marks; transcription error
PAGE LINE:
97:5–6
CHANGE FROM:
“changes that have led to decline”
CHANGE TO:
“changes that have led to a decline”
11
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Transcription error
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98:3
CHANGE FROM:
“because of censorship, less representation at all”
CHANGE TO:
“because of censorship, less representation, if at all,”
REASON:
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CHANGE FROM:
“that on the”
CHANGE TO:
“that in the”
REASON:
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98:19
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“there have also been persistence and even an”
CHANGE TO:
“there has also been persistence and even an”
REASON:
Typographical error
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101:9
CHANGE FROM:
“Do this strand of gay liberationist”
CHANGE TO:
“Does this strand of gay liberationist”
REASON:
Typographical error
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101:15
CHANGE FROM:
“bit but shared”
CHANGE TO:
“bit, but it shares”
12
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
REASON:
Clarification
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102:12
CHANGE FROM:
“Guy”
CHANGE TO:
“Gay”
REASON:
Transcription Error
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103:2
CHANGE FROM:
“Why don’t you look at it.”
CHANGE TO:
“Why don’t you look at it?”
REASON:
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105:13
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“Now as I say here, yes, there is”
CHANGE TO:
“Now, as I say here, yes, there is a”
REASON:
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108:11
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“directly but often”
CHANGE TO:
“directly, but most often”
REASON:
Clarification
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109:18–19
CHANGE FROM:
“people who support anti-gay -- sorry. Laws against discrimination
against gay people but --”
13
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
CHANGE TO:
“people who support anti-gay -- sorry, laws against discrimination
against gay people but”
REASON:
Transcription error
PAGE LINE:
110:20
CHANGE FROM:
“Dr. Chauncey that ran in University of Chicago”
CHANGE TO:
“Dr. Chauncey that ran in the University of Chicago”
REASON:
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111:25
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“referring to”
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“referring to,”
REASON:
Transcription Error
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112:2–3
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“some of the sailors at this naval station training station in
Newport”
CHANGE TO:
“some of the sailors at this naval training station in Newport”
REASON:
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112:20
CHANGE FROM:
“to page 28. I think it is second page in. This”
CHANGE TO:
“to page 28. I think it is the second page in. This”
REASON:
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115:6–7
14
George Chauncey Errata Sheet for July 12, 2011 Deposition
CHANGE FROM:
“hand -- I don’t think have made a claim that marriage between
two women or two men have been”
CHANGE TO:
“hand -- I don’t think they made a claim that marriage between two
women or two men had been”
REASON:
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CHANGE FROM:
“the Jews or the”
CHANGE TO:
“the Jews, or of”
REASON:
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CHANGE FROM:
“enslaved people or”
CHANGE TO:
“enslaved people, or”
REASON:
Transcription error
15
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