Polaris IP, LLC v. Google Inc. et al

Filing 392

SEALED MOTION for Summary Judgment of Invalidity by AOL, LLC., America Online, Inc., Google Inc., Yahoo!, Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Affidavit of Todd Kennedy, # 2 Exhibit A, # 3 Exhibit B, # 4 Exhibit C, # 5 Exhibit D, # 6 Exhibit E, # 7 Exhibit F, # 8 Exhibit G, # 9 Exhibit H, # 10 Exhibit I, # 11 Exhibit J, # 12 Exhibit K, # 13 Exhibit L, # 14 Exhibit M, # 15 Exhibit N, # 16 Exhibit O, # 17 Affidavit of Bradley Allen, # 18 Exhibit A, part 1 of 2, # 19 Exhibit A, part 2 of 2, # 20 Exhibit B)(Perlson, David) Modified on 7/2/2010 (ch, ). (Additional attachment(s) added on 7/2/2010: # 21 Text of Proposed Order) (ch, ).

Polaris IP, LLC v. Google Inc. et al

Doc. 392 Att. 5

EXHIBIT D

Dockets.Justia.com

Angotti, Anthony
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1993. Q. Okay. So what I'd like to do is kind of get a Q. or project. A. Q. Okay. Earlier you said you worked on it from Anthony Angotti 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Anthony Angotti that, if I'm recollecting correctly. Q. So is it your recollection they were the same 52

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Now, I'd like to turn to the EZ Reader product

company but Brightware was a later name? A. Q. That's the way I recall it. And so is this letter -- well, first of all,

beginning in 1993. A. The project of which that was a part began in

were you involved in the decision to get Brightware involved in the work you were doing for Chase? A. Q. Yes, I was. Okay. And were you the person responsible for

timeline of that project and your role in it, so if you could start with 1993, and you can describe what you were doing at that time as it related to EZ Reader. where we can start our timeline. A. In that time frame, one of the areas of focus That's

getting Brightware involved? A. By "responsible," I had management It was a team effort to determine It wasn't -- the decision to I

responsibility, yes.

which vendor we would use.

for the project was knowledge-based applications and to explore how those might be of business value, and so as it relates to EZ Reader, the 1993 time frame was involved with determining how we would go about developing an application such as -- in 1993 we didn't know that one of them would be EZ Reader. I mean -- but the time frame,

use Inference/Brightware was a team-based decision.

had management responsibility for executing, approving a document like this, budget responsibility. Q. Okay. So you didn't personally choose

Brightware by yourself? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

it was 1993 was, you know, doing a survey of the landscape of what were the available technologies and, you know, doing analyses and figuring out, you know, how -- what was the best way to approach this and that resulted in Brightware being chosen to work with us, so

You approved what others may have done? I was part of the evaluation team and I had --

you know, part of my evaluation was from a business standpoint to -- to determine -- you know, whichever technology we chose, did this quote, unquote make sense

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. that's you? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. Anthony Angotti that's the early time frame. Q. Since you mentioned Brightware, I'm going to It was 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Inference 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was? A. The business idea behind EZ Reader was to find for Chase. Anthony Angotti 53

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So usability training programs that they had, So I was involved in a lot of

ease of use by people. those aspects, yes. Q.

hand you what was already marked as an exhibit. Piccolo 9 at Ms. Piccolo's deposition. A. Okay. (Document handed.) Do you recognize this document? Yes.

So going back to EZ Reader generally, can you

explain what the idea behind the program was? A. Are we speaking specifically about EZ Reader

or -- when you say programming, should I apply that broadly, of which EZ Reader was a part, or specifically EZ Reader? Q. EZ Reader. A. Q. Would you ask the question again? Can you explain what the idea behind EZ Reader That's fair. Let's say specifically about

The Anthony Angotti in the signature block,

Do you recall receiving this document? That is my name, yes. Do you recall receiving this letter? I recognize the letter. And in the first sentence it says:

a solution that would make it faster and less costly to handle the needs of a business unit and, you know, in the bank, and so EZ Reader was an idea of a way to help address, you know, part of that business problem of how to handle incoming, you know, messages from customers. Q. Okay. And you mentioned the business problem Can you

is pleased to offer to Chase Manhattan a proposal for our IBM main frame for ART-IM software? A. Q. A. Hmm, mm. Do you know who or what Inference is? Thinking back on it, trying to recall it,

Inference was the name of the company that we originally started -- that had the software, the ART-IM software, and as I recall, the name Brightware was subsequent to

of handling incoming messages from customers.

describe what problem EZ Reader was trying to solve? A. Yes. You know, keeping in mind the time frame

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Angotti, Anthony
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Anthony Angotti 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. 22 23 24 25 A. Anthony Angotti 56

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and what we take as commonplace today just really didn't exist in 1994, '95. So, you know, you know, there was a

that comparison and if a comparison wasn't found, then it wasn't able to be addressed automatically. Q. And the electronic messages that EZ Reader

projection that on line banking with customers was, you know, going to involve, you know, electronic messages from customers of which e-mail would be a part, and, you know, trying to put myself in that time frame of what -with what we were, you know, thinking but, you know, any kind of message that would come in, you know, electronically, I would -- if we were -- you know, in using what was known then for service, which is a person on the telephone, and projecting volumes for on line if it's that bad. In order to have a viable business, you

analyzed in this manner, were those e-mail messages? A. Q. Yes, they were. And I guess the known cases that you were

describing, were those also e-mails? A. e-mails. I don't believe that they were exclusively It was a knowledge base, so it was the best So I would imagine that it

thinking that we could find.

would have involved talking to people that answered the phones. Q. Did the EZ Reader analyze any other customer

couldn't very well handle somebody on, you know, electronically, by passing it to a person on the phone to read and then type in a response. So that was the

communications other than e-mails. A. Q. A. Q. product? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. Not that I recall. Sorry. No, not that I recall. Whose idea was what became the EZ Reader Now --

business problem, was, you know, how do we be on line with our customers. Q. So the business problem that EZ Reader was

solving was being able to interact with customers on line?

I believe it was -- for me, I won't -- I'm not

The -- the -- you know, one of the business

able to -- I don't have -- I don't have information that lets me see an individual coming up with the idea alone. I mean, it was part of the team process that we had so it

problems was how to handle on-line interaction with customers, broadly stated, you know, of which e-mail is

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. one aspect of that. Anthony Angotti 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 So what was the -- you've described the What did 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 You know, if it was -- you know, determining 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dig. Q. Now, I'd like to get an idea what each of Anthony Angotti was a collective idea. Q. EZ Reader? A. I don't -- I don't think I can recall every Who was the team that was working on 57

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Other forms of, you know, messaging,

messages that might come in from a customer, and so the knowledge-based applications group was, you know, tasked with, you know, finding a way to use technology to automate, you know, business processes on behalf of on-line services. Q. Okay.

name but the main group that was working on it was Amy Rice, Julie Hsu, Rosanna Piccolo. that subteam. I was also part of

That was the main nucleus group that was There were

problem now that EZ Reader was trying to solve. the product do? How did it solve that problem? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

carried on the day-to-day kind of project.

other folks that got involved in the business unit and in the IT group but, you know, they played very support roles, project management roles. A Connie Lynch was part

Objection, form.

EZ Reader addressed that problem by, you know,

being able to do what it was doing then and that was, you know, receive an electronic message from the customer, determine the nature of that -- of that message and respond to that if it could. Q. by that? A. When you say "if it could," what do you mean

of the team, not EZ Reader, per se, but she worked closely with Amy, Amy Rice, on a list of projects that we were working on. Q. interrupt. A. I don't recall -- one other name that comes to Do you remember any -- sorry, didn't mean to

mind that was -- I wouldn't -- would have considered part of the team, so I don't know if it's relevant. want that name? Q. A. Can you say who that was? Janice Browne. That's about as deep as I can Do you

if it could was, you know, a part of the, you know, invention of, you know, determining -- determining the content and comparing that to cases that were, you know, known, known e-mails from -- known customer requests and determining if this request was like one that was already resolved and then taking the -- a similar action based on

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. time frame. Q. Anthony Angotti Going back to the time frame of the 62 1 2 3 4 5 That was -- that -- those 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Objection, form. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. believe. Q. Anthony Angotti BY MS. ROBERTS: Okay, Mr. Angotti, before our break I asked 64

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development of the EZ Reader, you said the 1993 date you mentioned earlier, that was for the higher level project; is that right? A. That's right.

you when development of EZ Reader was done and you stated you didn't recall when; is that correct? A. Q. I did, that's correct. So do you recall approximately how long

activities are what spawned the EZ Reader project. EZ Reader eventually came out of that. Q. So focusing just on EZ Reader, when would you

development of EZ Reader took? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

say the development -- well, let me rephrase. Focusing on EZ Reader, when would you say that particular idea was conceived? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I'd be guessing. Was it later than 1993? Yes. Was it later than 1994? It was somewhere between -- I can estimate a It was somewhere between the middle of '94

Development of EZ Reader was done in phases I At least that's the way I'm thinking about it

and so, you know, development of EZ Reader -- I mean, as I'm generally recalling the schedule, had us developing -- I mean -- I think it might make sense to just, you know, talk about the development cycle for a minute so that I can try to get an answer to your question. So we -- you know, we were taking an approach to the project that was, you know, a total quality approach to the project which was the -- you know, we -you know, we had a plan to develop the system, test it, install it, and then learn from it and, you know -- so development was a cycle we were going through, so that's the reason, you know -- I mean, to put a specific date on when it ended is difficult to do. So we were on a track

and the early part of '95 to middle of '95, somewhere in that time frame. I'm just not clear on the dates that

everyone got involved and so I'm kind of backing up and trying to estimate it for you. Q. Okay. And then once this idea was conceived,

when did the actual development on the EZ Reader begin?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Anthony Angotti I would think no later than the middle of I don't have -- I don't recall 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MR. BUSTAMANTE: I don't. Objection, form. 9 10 11 12 Counsel, may we go off 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anthony Angotti to develop and task and with a target of, you know, sometime in the first quarter of, I believe it was 1996, to put into a production environment and see how it works and then to learn from that and then go back and make improvements to it and so that -- so that's how we did it. So the time frame -- when it ended, I don't know -- I don't recall a specific date but in terms of the cycle and what we were in, it was developed through '95 and get testing and learning and into '96 with a target of getting it into the business unit in the first quarter of '96 as I'm thinking about it. Q. there. Okay. So just a couple of follow-up questions 65

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1995, no later than that.

the specific date but it seems to me that it would be no later than that, just kind of based on my recollection of what we did with it and how we got things done. Q. completed? Then do you recall when development was

I do not and it's -- I do not. We're going to take a break

MS. ROBERTS:

now to change the tape. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: record? Having heard the approval of all parties, we're off the record November 13th, 2009, approximately 10:56 a.m. This concludes

You mentioned putting it in production

environment and then also getting it into a business unit. A. Q. Are you referring to the same thing? They're synonymous in my mind, yes. Then what exactly are you referring to, what

recording unit number 2 of the testimony of Anthony Angotti. (A recess was then taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the

the target was to be done in the first quarter of '96.? A. I can only speak to my recollection and, you

record, November 13th, 2009 at approximately 11:07 a.m. This is the beginning of recording

know, my -- as it's occurring to me, how factual it is. It's the way it is in my mind, so that's -- so the Chase Direct business unit, so, you know, production, business unit, Chase Direct -- Chase Direct was the name of the

unit number 3 of the testimony of Anthony Angotti.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anthony Angotti on-line banking services that we were focused on for EZ Reader. So for me it was get EZ Reader, you know, finished based on whatever functionality we defined and, you know, get it into the business unit in the first quarter and, you know, demonstrate it under fire because for me it was about legitimizing the application and to move forward with it and, you know, just, you know, you know, reporting to an executive committee that this is the greatest idea and it's really going to work well and it's -- it was show me. So for me it was get it into the 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Anthony Angotti MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection to form. 68

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In my definition of deployment, it's -- you

know, it's synonymous with putting it into -- in -because I did -- I'm not qualifying the scope of deployment, you know, so does deployment mean into the -I'm speaking specifically of the business unit, Chase Direct, so I -- my term -- you could interpret what I said as deployed or put into or released into, all those are synonymous. Q. Perfect, that's exactly what I was looking After getting it into the

for; that was a synonym.

production environment and let it run and handle real customer e-mails in this case and let's see how it goes and -- but the purpose for me was legitimizing it in the minds of the stakeholders to move on because we were -it was a -- I don't recall the exact budget but it was a -- it was a big ticket enough item that it had, you know, executive management's attention on it. Q. So the target was first quarter of '96 to get

production environment, was there any further work on EZ Reader or was that effectively the end of development? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

I'm -- my involvement with EZ Reader was

really tailing off at that point due to the merger or -however it was defined, so, you know, it's -- it's really sketchy. I just -- and the reason I'm saying that is

that there -- I'm not clear on what business decisions were made with respect to Chase Direct, what technical -technology decisions were made with respect to EZ Reader and all this came together. So I -- I'm afraid I just

EZ Reader out there in production so people would actually be using it, responding to e-mails, like you said, so you could actually see? A. Q. Right. See it working and see how it worked; is that

can't -- I don't know anything about that that would be helpful.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. right? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Is that correct? Yes. I believe that's what I -- what, you Does it work or Objection to form. Anthony Angotti 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 And do you recall if you met that target? As I recall, we did meet that target. There 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Anthony Angotti 69

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Now, when you were -- what we're calling as a

merger today, even though we don't know the exact legal terminology, do you recall when that happened such that your work on EZ Reader started tailing off? A. It was in -- you know, and I have in fact It was in

know, what I said, to legitimize it. doesn't it? Q. A.

checked this but it seems to me it was in '95.

the -- I keep wanting to think it was in the third quarter but I'm just -- I know I'm not -- I know that it happened and I believe it was in that time frame. Q. Did you stay involved in EZ Reader through

was, you know, enough substantive evidence for me to, you know, go on record as saying that, you know, or the investment is paying off; it works. Here's some results.

getting it into production or in the production environment? A. Q. Yes. I mean I was involved in it, yes.

I don't recall the exact results it had, and it was -so -- I've lost track of the question but... Q. A. Q. I think you answered it. It worked, yes. So my question was whether you met the

So when you say your work was sort of tailing

off, were there things with respect to EZ Reader that you were no longer doing that you had been doing before? A. My day-to-day or regular involvement with that

timeline target of -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- of getting it in production. I think barely but we -- but I believe we did. If I were to ask you -- again focusing on this

specifically, just kind of -- was based on meetings as needed as opposed to a regularly scheduled meeting and just looking at it in the context of the broader set of projects. Q. Anything else or any other changes? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

timeline we're putting together when EZ Reader was deployed, would you count getting it into the production environment in the first quarter of 1996 as deployment?

Not that I -- we were just going through --

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Anthony Angotti next page, February 19 -A. Says 6 February, '96. This is also during I just don't 106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Anthony Angotti

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So one was about the date in deployment and

the other was generally about the document, so if you could just rephrase them one at a time so I can answer them, please. Q. So the first is, to clarify, is one of the

that transition period so I could have. have any recollection of it specifically. Q.

So just to make sure I understand what your

best recollection is of your involvement in this document, are you certain that you gave some input onto this document? You just don't recall specifically what

issues we spoke about this morning was that you had said that the target which you met for deployment of EZ Reader was the first quarter of 1996; is that right? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Yes, that's right. And you had also stated this afternoon that Objection to form.

it might have been or are you unsure as to whether you gave any input to the document? A. I'm really, you know, unsure, and the basis

for that is that some of the content here may have been the result of input that I had over the course of the months but in terms of, you know, getting together and saying we're going to do the user guide, I don't recall. Q. Do you know if this document was distributed

you didn't know whether this particular document, Piccolo Exhibit 7, was ever actually distributed; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. Would the point of creating a document like

to users at Chase when the product was deployed? A. Q. A. Q. It would only be an assumption. You don't know one way or the other? No. Are you aware of a document that more

this have been to distribute it to those who were going to use the product? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

The point of creating the document itself is

or some form of this document is to -- is part of the process of developing something, an application, so documenting the application is something that would be done regardless of whether or not it was going to be

comprehensively describes EZ Reader than this document? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

Based on the exhibits today, I mean I don't

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. Yes. Sorry. Would the purpose of this document or Would this document have been created Anthony Angotti know of any document that's more detailed than this. not saying that none exists. know of any. I just don't, you know, 107 I'm 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 I was trying to 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. deployed. Anthony Angotti

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That's -- you know, the degree -- I'm using It seems

documentation more general, in a general sense.

Did a programmer keep very, very detailed I don't know.

to me that looking at this document and the fact that it does -- it goes beyond technical documentation of the work and the date, it's consistent with the target date that we had of the first quarter, so that date may have accelerated getting this completed is all I'm trying to say. Q. Okay. Understood. We keep referring to the

documentation on certain elements of it? Q. Don't worry.

I'm not going to give you a

thicker one. A. I don't think that you were.

think of this in relation to other things that we talked about today. Q. Would the purpose of -- well, keeping -- you It says the 5th or

first quarter of 1996.

Do you have anymore specific

noted the date on the second page. 6th of February, 1996? A. Q. Right.

recollection of the deployment date for EZ Reader? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I do, yes. What is that? I recollect seeing a date in the AAAI article Objection, form.

And you said the EZ Reader was deployed by the

first quarter of 1996; is that right? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection to form.

that was published, I think it was March 20 something so it was -- that's a date that I recall just having seen there but I've always referred to it as the first quarter. style. Q. A. Q. If you turn to page 10 of Piccolo Exhibit 7. Yes. There's an entry that's called overall That's consistent with my project management

let me rephrase.

for a product that wasn't yet deployed? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

Whether or not a product -- I feel like I was

asked two questions. Q. Okay.

business requirements and it describes EZ Reader's

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. That's consistent with the functionality we've Anthony Angotti there's a description of EZ Reader? A. Q. Yes. It's described as an intelligent electronic 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 That's fine. Take your time. Farther down in 21 22 23 24 25 A. Anthony Angotti e-mails, so if we're saying the same thing, then, you know, the vision wasn't limited to that but that's what we -- but we were focused on e-mails here and I'm just trying to make sure that we're consistent with that thread. Q. In terms of the vision, even if the broader

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mail reader that employs a unique combination of rule-based parsing and case-based reasoning to automatically and with a high level of accuracy classify and respond to large volumes of incoming e-mail; is that right?

vision was not limited to e-mails, it was limited to communications from customers; is that right? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

The one example that I can use, I refer to a

Chase employee that was talking to a customer, so I -- it really depends on how far you stretch that out. If it's

been discussing today, correct? A. Yes. Just as a matter of process that may

the next -- if it's the next event in line, so if it's customer to representative to technology and/or if it's customer-directed technology, those were two different scenarios that I gave, so I don't know that that's -that that says -- that that answered your question but that's how we'd respond to it. On behalf of a customer

help other questions, when -- you know, the accuracy of the words and the -- and the actual accuracy of what it's, you know, it's representing, trying to differentiate between -- to see if there's any difference between that and what's here, so that's the little pauses I'm doing. Q.

or from a customer seemed to be -- they could be two different things. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. It's a matter of interpretation. Okay. Yes. Returning to the abstract.

that paragraph, it says that phase 1 of EZ Reader was deployed in the first quarter of 1996 and handles up to 80 percent of incoming mail automatically depending on message content.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. Anthony Angotti Yes, I see that. Is that consistent with your testimony earlier 123 1 2 3 4 5 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Yes, it is consistent. And if you look under the section entitled Objection, form. 6 7 8 9 10 11 Yes. -- says: The success of its marketing 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 We 23 24 25 A. know. Q. For the purpose that -- you're comfortable -A. A. Q. Q. Anthony Angotti We discussed that it says that EZ Reader

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utilizes rule-based and case-based reasoning and we previously discussed that your team did not invent rule-based reasoning or case-based reasoning; is that correct? MR. BUSTAMANTE: That's correct. Do you believe that your team was the first to Objection, form.

today that EZ Reader was deployed by the first quarter of 1996?

problem description, the second paragraph, which is the first full paragraph on the right-hand column on this page -A. Q.

combine rule-based reasoning with case-based reasoning? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. Combined

The question seems incomplete to me.

the two or what? Q. A. Q. A. know. Q. Okay. So do you know whether there were In a software application. Ever? Yes. I have no way of answering that. I don't

campaign created a challenge for Chase Direct from the beginning, to quickly and cost effectively process e-mail from multiple sources, including the Internet, Microsoft Money e-mail and another internal DOS-based money manager programs with e-mail capability. Is that consistent with your testimony today; that the EZ Reader was deployed -- was developed and deployed to address and respond to e-mails? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

software applications that predated EZ Reader that combined rule-based reasoning with case-based reasoning? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection to form.

That's not the way that I would phrase it.

Again in that broad of a context, I don't

had discussed that EZ Reader was deployed to primarily respond -- its primary purpose was to respond to incoming

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Anthony Angotti Column 4 on the next page, the next full 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 So 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Anthony Angotti

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I think in the way that I described it in --

paragraph it begins with the words "unlike the help desk application"? A. Q. I see it. Okay, and it distinguishes that particular

in my example would be that if the -- if the customer was presented with multiple responses to their request and they chose one of those and that was the end of it, then my interpretation would be that that would still be noninteractive. If they had to choose from the drop-down

application that was just referenced in paragraph -- in column 2 and it states: In the instant invention, the

list that then resulted in the -- another response back, then it seems to me that would be interactive. trying to be consistent with the example. Q. A. Q. Yes. I'm not the authority on this. That's okay. We've discussed rule-based I'm just

data of the electronic message is delivered to the automatic message interpreting and routing system in a noninteractive manner. means? Do you know what "noninteractive"

I would comment by citing, you know, my

knowledge today or rule-based knowledge systems. A. Q. A. Yes. What is a rule in that context? A rule is a -- a rule describes a situation

understanding of noninteractive as it relates to this is demonstrated by the example I just gave, where that would be interactive. Q. A. Can you explain that? A noninteractive -- an interactive -- I'm

where there's an expected input and a predefined output based on that input. There could be lots of rules to

really trying to answer your question as best I can.

handle lots of different inputs or conditions, if you will, and there could be lots of responses to those conditions but it's really a condition, and based on the state of that condition, a response. IF-THEN-ELSE kind of -- in my mind. Q. How are the rules determined -It's really

the help desk -- help desk application that's referred to here, in the context of our discussion, would be -- could be considered an interactive message in that it needs the interaction back and forth between the sender of the message and the responder, if there's required

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Anthony Angotti 155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Objection, form. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Did the EZ Reader deployed by Chase in the 17 18 19 Objection, form. 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. Anthony Angotti MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection.

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interaction to get to a result; whereas, noninteractive would mean that I would present my request and I would get my response and there would be no other interaction with that is the best -- is the way that I interpret that -- interpret this. Q. Okay. So does noninteractive mean that the

-- in a rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

-- the rules are -- the rules can be defined

by people, you know, in that, you know, there -- there's a definition of what the -- of the possibilities that the system is expected to handle and then there's a definition of the responses to those conditions, and those can be defined, you know -- I mean, it has to start with the source of the knowledge and so, again -- in a case like this it would be with people. You know, I've

system will automatically return the single best response with no user interaction? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

Ideally, noninteractive -- noninteractive

meant that -- you used the word -- the term automated. Q. A. Hmm, mm. So, you know, noninteractive manner --

heard of adaptive systems that can just kind of get -you know, based on -- its experience with systems will generate rules but it's kind of -- it all starts with here's a condition, here's what you need to do with respect to that, and it's defined by, say, a list of people. Q. What is a knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. I'm a

automated is one way that the response could have been delivered. Q.

first quarter of 1996 respond to noninteractive electronic messages? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

As I understood it, yes. Would having a user select from a list of

It can have a number of definitions.

knowledge engine.

You know, any, you know, system from

options, say a drop-down menu, would that qualify as being a noninteractive electronic message? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

people down to machines that respond to conditions through a learned behavior. Q. You mentioned a few moments ago the IF-THEN

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. A. Q. A. Q. construct? A. Q. Hmm, mm. Is that -- is any use of an IF-THEN construct Anthony Angotti 158 1 2 3 4 5 Objection, form. 6 7 8 9 10 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. 11 12 13 14 Objection, form. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. Anthony Angotti MR. BUSTAMANTE: Yes, it was. Did EZ Reader, did the EZ Reader employed by Objection, form.

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a rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: It can be, yes. So is a rule-based knowledge engine any engine

Chase in the first quarter of 1996 utilize a rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

It utilized the -- it's my understanding that

that decides on an action to be taken using an IF-THEN construct?

it utilized the data -- the rules-based engine and case-based reasoning engines in the Inference technologies. Q. Are rules and cases the same thing? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I can rephrase. Objection, form.

In a very broad sense, it could be. Is an IF-THEN construct necessary to be a

rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Probably not.

Can rules be cases? Objection, form.

MR. BUSTAMANTE:

I'm just -- let me respond a

Again it would depend on, you know, the I mean, a rule could be a case of one; one,

different way.

In my experience it always came down to a It was -- but

definition.

kind of IF-THEN, no matter how you cut it.

you know -- one instance, if it's -- so I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that question authoritatively. It just seems to me it could be. Q. And I think you said when I asked if the

I'm sure that -- there could be other technologies out there that aren't based around that construct. Q. At the time the patent was filed, which was

back in 1998, was your understanding that the IF-THEN construct was essential to a rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

EZ Reader deployed by Chase in the first quarter of 1996 employed a rule-based knowledge engine, I think you responded that it employed both a rule-based and case-based knowledge engine from Brightware's technology;

As related to what -- to my definition, yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. form. They were represented by different technology A. A. Q. engines. Anthony Angotti We've also discussed case-based knowledge Can you explain what case-based meant to you 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Thank you. Objection, 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. is that correct? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. Anthony Angotti

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when the patent was filed in 1998? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

That's how I responded and that's what I

believe is the case. Q. To make sure the record is clear, the

It was the application of -- what it meant to

me then is it was the application of Inference's/Brightware's technology to solve the IF-THEN-ELSE problem in a different way. Q. Is a case-based knowledge engine different

EZ Reader deployed by Chase in the first quarter of 1996 employed a case-based knowledge engine, correct? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

It -- the more accurate answer I could give is

than a rule-based knowledge engine? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I'm sorry. MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

it employed case-based reasoning techniques to solve the problems. Q. A. Q. If you turn to column 7. Okay. The second-to-last paragraph, beginning with The case model of the e-mail

the second sentence states:

products from Inference. Q. So when we use the term rule-based and

message is called a presented case model and is compared with a set of stored case models in the case base. These

case-based, are those two different things in your mind? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

stored case models are created from previously received e-mail messages and associated responses. The case base

They're two different things in my mind in

preferably contains over 300 stored case models. Is that an accurate description of a case-based knowledge engine, based on your understanding in 1998? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

that -- by way of the technology that was used to solve problems related to each one. Q. And was that your understanding back in 1998

when the patent was filed?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Anthony Angotti I believe it -- it's -- there's one part of 162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. is yes. Q. A. Anthony Angotti MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

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that that's inconsistent with the statement I made earlier about how the cases were created and previously I'd stated that -- you know, had thought that, you know, some -- you know, some of the cases were created based on input from service personnel and so I just want to cite that that's a little inconsistent with this but it could be that e-mails with known situations were input into the system by creating an e-mail to operationalize that knowledge. I just -- I just don't know, but this is --

It seems to me the answer is yes to that and

I'm just trying to think through if it wouldn't be yes, but I would doubt -- when you say to create a response, it's really to find the appropriate response. Q. A. Okay. I don't believe it's creating responses. The

responses are defined based on the cases. Q. Okay. Did the EZ Reader deployed by Chase in

the first quarter of 1996 compare the electronic messages received to stored cases to identify a response? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

for all intents and purposes this is accurate, with that noted inconsistency. Q. Okay. Is this -- do you consider this to be

It's my understanding that the answer to that Yes. The phrase "stored set of cases" or "set of How is that

an accurate description of the case-based knowledge system based on your understanding in 1998? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

stored cases" is used in this paragraph. different than a stored set of rules? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

I believe that this -- you know, that this

describes a case-based reasoning application. Q. A. Okay. As the term --

Objection, form.

A stored case represents the content or the

I don't believe that all case-based reasoning

data that represents a customer request, it's -- so it could be I'm on my last book of checks, you know, please send me a new order of checks, and I want the green ones, and the response that would be to send green checks and I want a quantity of 300, so a response to that would be if

applications are defined like this. Q. Okay. Understood. As the term is used in the

patent, does a case-based knowledge engine store cases? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Anthony Angotti 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Does the invention compare the message, the 24 25 Anthony Angotti you recognize that, so the case is the precedent. So

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I'm -- I'm trying to separate your use of the

word "engine" and "data." Q. A. Okay. So, you know, and in the context of this

this is a case of needing check renewals, needing checks. And so that, just in -- just in plain language, that's -- so that data, all of that data would be put -- and say this is case 1 and then any e-mail that comes in, you would field that, and using your case-based reasoning system, you would process the input and because of the technology, you'd say -- you would, through the proprietary algorithms that Inference had, it would -- it would identify -- hopefully it would identify that as this is a case for new checks and it's -- and we found other words in there and one's a color and one's a quantity and so that's -- so the case there is, you know, send new checks so a new check order is written. If that were done in rules, then there would be -- the technology would be different and you would need to write out all the possible rules that you think would -- you would need to have to recognize that input, and then you would have to fire those rules as you go through that to try to determine it. Q. If I could turn your attention to column 9,

question it seems that they're combined into one and, you know, and I tend to think of -- when the term "engine" is used, it could be -- you know, it could refer to the train and not the coal and in -- I'm hearing the question as though it's the train and the coal together, sort of the engine and there's the stuff that makes the engine go. And so with your questions here about are the stored

cases part of the engine, I don't know how to answer that that their engine requires stored cases. Q. What is meant by "stored cases"? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

In this description the -- the stored cases

refer to data that represent -- that represent a customer request and there's an associated response to that request and set of cases. Obviously when -- so that's --

that's a case and here, you know, the -- the words are referring to the -- to how the cases are created and so forth. Q.

the fourth full paragraph on the page begins with the phrase "when the automatic message reader has classified." Do you see that?

electronic message to stored cases to create a response?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. Hmm, mm. So it states: When the automatic message Anthony Angotti 166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. Q. Yes. The term "predetermined thoughts" is used in 10 11 12 13 Objection, form. 14 15 16 17 Is a predetermined response a prepared 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 off? Having heard the approval of all parties, we are off the record November 13th, 2009, approximately 3:29 p.m. recording unit number 6. (A recess was then taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the This concludes A. Q. A. Q. Anthony Angotti Calendar quarter? Yes. And then how -- back to the predetermined

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reader has classified the e-mail message as being of the automatic type, one or more predetermined responses or prepared responses are retrieved from a repository or database, preferably the archive of the automatic message reader, for automatic deliver to the source. that? Do you see

response, how was that located? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. It's just -- I don't

It's -- by the software?

think I have that level of, you know -- that just gets into operating systems and codes and, you know, it's -you know, it's file systems. based on having found it. MS. ROBERTS: break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel, may we go Okay. Let's take our So it's located in that way

that sentence, do you have an understanding as to what that meant -- what that means? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

In the -- using my previous example with the

checkbooks, the predefined response would be to order new checks. Q.

response stored in a repository or database? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

According to this description, yes. Does this mean that -- and the invention

record November 13th, 2009 at approximately 3:43 p.m. This begins recording unit number 7

responses are prepared and stored before a message, an electronic message is even received? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

of the testimony of Anthony A. Angotti.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. I think we need to take a quick break to A. Q. Anthony Angotti By definition, yes. And I think you gave an example of one of the 167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Yes. Just to make sure we're on the same page, what Is that January through March or 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. Anthony Angotti BY MS. ROBERTS: Mr. Angotti, looking back at that same

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types of predetermined responses for EZ Reader might have been if somebody requests new checks, to send them new checks; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Can you give me other examples of a

provision we were discussing before the break, the reference to the predetermined responses? A. Q. A. Q. Could you tell me the column number? Yes, column 9, the fourth full paragraph. Okay. It says that one or more predetermined Can you tell

predetermined response that EZ Reader used? A. Q. I would just be hypothesizing them. Did the EZ Reader deployed by Chase in the

responses are retrieved from a repository. me what a repository is? A.

first quarter of 1996, did it utilize the predetermined responses as described in this sentence of the patent? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

On the document it says "or database."

It's

synonymous with that. Q.

It's a collection of information.

Would it include files on the hard drive? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

I believe that it -- data on a hard

change the tape but I actually -- let me ask a few more questions. I keep referring and you've referred to the

drive, yes. Q. You mentioned engines in a database. Can you

first quarter of 1996 is when the EZ Reader was deployed by Chase? A. Q.

think of anything else? A. disk. I mean other electronic media, you know, tape, You had specifically said hard drive. It could be

other electronic media as well. Q. And as originally conceived with respect to

is the first quarter? does Chase have -A.

EZ Reader, was the repository or did repository mean sort of a library of the predetermined responses to customer

No, it's the calendar quarter.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. way. Q. And the EZ Reader that was deployed by Chase A. Q. A. e-mails? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. Anthony Angotti 170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Objection, form. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 What is fixed data? 24 25 A. Q. rephrase. A. Q. A. A. Q. Anthony Angotti

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first quarter of 1996 respond to both -- to electronic messages of both fixed data and variable data? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I don't recall. If you turn to column 14, claim 26, it's -Objection, form.

The repository included that. Did it include something else? I'm not sure. That's why I answered it that

begins with the number 26? A. Q. I see it. If you could read that to yourself, please,

in the first quarter of 1996, it utilized a repository of predetermined responses? MR. BUSTAMANTE:

and then I'd like to know whether EZ Reader performed these steps in the order depicted here. MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

Yes, it did utilize that. If you turn to the bottom of column 11 and

I believe this is consistent with the charts

going onto column 12? A. Q. Yes, I'm there. The last full paragraph in column 11, if I

that we looked at previously. Q. If a piece of software analyzed cases before

receiving an electronic message, would that software be practicing your invention? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

could have you read that, and then the paragraph that goes onto column 12. A. Q. (Witness complies.) Okay. And you'll notice that these two paragraphs Do you have an

If that software would be what? Be practicing your invention? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I don't know. Objection, form.

refer to fixed data and variable data.

understanding as to what those terms mean? A. Q. A. Yes. Okay.

I don't know.

Do you have any information -- well, let me You understand that Bright Response alleges

Fixed data is form-based data, data in

that Google infringes the '947 patent, correct?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yeah. A. Anthony Angotti predefined locations in a file or on a screen or -Q. So does -- would fixed data mean the sender 171 1 2 3 4 5 It 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form. 22 23 24 25 A. know. A. Q. A. Anthony Angotti

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I think earlier, you asked me that earlier and I,

I think I responded I was subpoenaed and I'm here.

chooses between preprogrammed options in a form? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

you know -- beyond that I'm just -- I don't know what the specifics are. Q. Okay. That's fine. Do you have any

I don't know that the sender chooses.

could be the specific interface that's, you know, being used to -- part of a request may be filling out a form for checks or a request comes in; the user just types it free form into a message. Either way the message is --

information or evidence that Google infringes the '947 patent? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Not that I know of. Do you have any evidence that Google copied Objection, form.

is an electronic message that comes in. Q. If the sender types something in free form,

the '947 patent? A. Q. No, I don't have any evidence of that. Do you have any evidence that Yahoo infringes

would that be fixed data? A. Q. No, that would be free form. Okay. Would that be the terminology used in

the '947 patent? A. Q. Not that I know of. And do you have any evidence that Yahoo copied

the next paragraph, variable data with -A. Q. I believe so, yes. Okay. So the difference between fixed data

the '947 patent? A. Q. No, I do not. Going back to the EZ Reader that was deployed

and variable data as used here in the patent is the difference between whether it's fixed or free form, as you stated?

by Chase in the first quarter of '96, did Chase continue using EZ Reader after that period? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

I was using fixed and form-based

synonymously and free form and variable synonymously. Q. And did the EZ Reader deployed by Chase in the

I believe I stated that I don't -- I don't

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. A. Q. EZ Reader? A. Q. I do not know. Do you know whether Chase stopped using Anthony Angotti So do you know whether Chase is still using 174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Can you explain what you mean by that? Yes. If -- you know, I think by nature of a 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. A. Q. A. Anthony Angotti That's correct. There were some sort of separate test group? No. As I stated, it was in the production

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environment. Q. And did Chase expect to be able to save money

EZ Reader at some period from the first quarter of 1996 to the present? A. I don't know -- not that I -- if they did or

on -- if they implemented the EZ Reader? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

didn't, I wouldn't know. Q. Do you know if by deploying EZ Reader in the

We were -- we were all in agreement that it That's

would be of benefit to Chase and save money, yes. why we were doing it. Q.

first quarter of 1996, Chase saved money by having this tool to assist in responding to the volume of e-mails? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

Do you know of -- did the EZ Reader and the

invention in the '947 patent, did that satisfy a long-felt need in your business or industry? MR. BUSTAMANTE: I don't know. Objection, form.

I think it would be difficult to quantify

I mean -- in my mind there's a difference between

demonstrating that it will save money and actually saving the money. Q. A.

The industry at that point was

young in understanding its needs in this whole emerging on-line electronic world that we were entering into, so I don't know how to answer that. know that. Q. Do you know of any others that had tried and I don't know how I would

system like EZ Reader, when you would first deploy it, I believe that your costs are necessarily higher than your savings because you're high on the learning curve, so you asked me if they -- if money was saved in the first quarter and I'm saying I can't quantify that just by the nature of what -- of a new system.

failed to come up with a solution to the problem that you were facing, the large volume of e-mails? A. Q. No, not firsthand. Do you know if EZ Reader was ever licensed to

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Do you believe that Chase benefited by having

deployed the EZ Reader system? MR. BUSTAMANTE: Objection, form.

I believe that Chase benefited from having

EZ Reader deployed in the first quarter of 1996 as follows: For me the purpose of the deployment was to

legitimize the application and to demonstrate under fire, if you will, that it was capable of doing the things that we were claiming that it would do and so that -- you know, in the word "deploy," I mean these words are used loosely based on, you know, who the orator is in terms of the words. To me deployed means implementing in Chase

Direct in a production environment to -- to legitimize the application and to prove that it worked and to prove that we could get -- realize the benefits that we were claiming and so that's what we did. Q. And when it was deployed, it was used to

respond to actual -A. Q. A. claims. Q. And it was used by a business unit that would Yes, it was. -- e-mail messages, correct? We needed to do that to substantiate the

use EZ Reader?

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