I/P Engine, Inc. v. AOL, Inc. et al

Filing 766

NOTICE by AOL Inc., Gannett Company, Inc., Google Inc., IAC Search & Media, Inc., Target Corporation of Filing of Defendants Proffer Of Evidence Related To Laches (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C)(Noona, Stephen)

EXHIBIT
B

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 1
1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

3

NORFOLK DIVISION

4

-------------------------x
I/P ENGINE, INC.,

5
Plaintiff,
6
v.

Civil Action No. 2:11-cv-512

7
GOOGLE INC., et al.,
8
Defendants.
9

-------------------------x

10
11

CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER

12
13

Videotaped Deposition of DONALD M. KOSAK

14

Washington, D.C.

15

Thursday, May 31, 2012

16

9:04 a.m.

17
18
19
20
21
22

Reported by:

Amy E. Sikora, RPR, CRR, CSR-NY, CLR

23
24
25

Job No. CS397174
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 2
1
2

Deposition of DONALD M. KOSAK
held at the offices of:

3

Dickstein Shapiro LLP

4

1825 Eye Street, N.W.

5

Washington, D.C.

20006

6
7

Pursuant to notice, before Amy E. Sikora,

8

Registered Professional Reporter, Certified

9

Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand

10

Reporter (NY), Certified LiveNote Reporter, and

11

Notary Public for the District of Columbia.

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 3
1
2

A P P E A R A N C E S
ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF:

3

DAWN RUDENKO ALBERT, ESQUIRE

4

Dickstein Shapiro LLP

5

1633 Broadway

6

New York, New York

7

212-277-6715

8

[e-mail]

9

10019-6708

-and-

10

CHARLES J. MONTERIO, JR., ESQUIRE

11

1825 Eye Street, N.W.

12

Washington, D.C.

13

202-420-5167

14

[e-mail]

20006-5403

15

ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS GOOGLE, INC., IAC

16

SEARCH & MEDIA, INC., TARGET CORP., AND GANNETT

17

CO., INC.:

18

DAVID BILSKER, ESQUIRE

19

50 California Street

20

San Francisco, California

21

415-875-6432-5700

22

[e-mail]

94111

23
24
25
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 4
1

A P P E A R A N C E S

2

(Continued)

3

ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT AOL, INC.:

4

CORTNEY S. ALEXANDER, ESQUIRE

5

Finnegan Henderson Farabow Garrett & Dunner

6

LLP

7

3500 SunTrust Plaza

8

303 Peachtree Street, NE

9

Atlanta, Georgia

30308-3263

10

404-653-6400

11

[e-mail]

12
13
14

ALSO PRESENT:

15

David L. Cohen, Esquire (p.m.)

16

Innovate/Protect

17

Kim Johnson, Videographer

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 16
1

Q.

Sure.

2

A.

Google AdSense is what I had heard

3

about.

4

product names that are both advertising, I got

5

them confused.

6
7

The -- the two terms are -- you know, the

Q.

I'm sorry.

All right.

Well, with respect to

Google AdSense, you knew about it by 2005?

8

A.

Right.

9

Q.

And that was because you used it at

10

Lycos?

11

A.

Right, right.

12

Q.

Did you have an understanding of how

13
14

Google AdSense worked?
A.

I don't know how it worked internally.

15

We knew enough to put the required tags on the

16

page to call those ads, but what happens after

17

that, I don't know.

18
19

Q.
selected?

20
21

MS. ALBERT:
Q.

22
23

Did you have any idea how ads were

In Google AdSense?
MR. BILSKER:

Q.

Objection, vague.

Let me withdraw that.

Did you have any idea how ads were

24

selected in Google AdSense in the 2005 time

25

frame?
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 17
1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Did you do anything to try to

3

determine how ads were selected in the 2005 time

4

frame in Google AdSense?

5

A.

No.

6

Q.

Is there a reason that you didn't do

7

anything to try to identify how they were

8

selected?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

What was that reason?

11

A.

There was no business reason for me to

12

spend time on analy -- analyzing something that

13

was, you know, wasn't a revenue stream for us.

14

Why -- why would I analyze it?

15
16
17

Q.

At that time in 2005, who owned the

two patents that are part of this case?
A.

In 2005, I'm not sure the ownership.

18

I -- I believe it was probably Dom Communications

19

Corporation.

20

Q.

Not Lycos?

21

A.

Well, Lycos was owned by Dom

22

Communication Corporation at the time.

Hence, my

23

uncertainty about the ownership, whether they

24

were owned by a subdivision or the parent company

25

or -- I don't know exactly who had the ownership
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 20
1

Q.

Yes.

2

A.

No, I -- I don't recall.

3

Q.

Were you doing anything to determine,

4

in 2005, whether anyone might be using the

5

patents that are part of this case?

6
7
8
9

A.

I don't think that I did anything in

2005.
Q.

When was the first time that you did

anything to make a determination as to whether

10

somebody was using the inventions that are

11

described in the patents in this case?

12

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

13

A.

Could you repeat the question, please?

14

Q.

Sure.

15

A.

I'm sorry.

16

Q.

When was the first time that you did

17

anything to make a determination that someone was

18

using the inventions that are described in the

19

patents in this case?

20
21

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

I -- I did nothing to -- to do this.

22

As -- as a technologist, as an engineer, that

23

would be something that the legal department

24

would handle, not -- not myself.

25

action to determine infringement or -- or, you

So I took no

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 21
1
2

know, at any point as a technologist for Lycos.
Q.

So you never remember seeing any

3

system where you said, hey, they're using

4

collaborative filtering and content-based

5

filtering and that's what our patents claim; you

6

never remember any situation like that?

7

A.

Where I would take some initiative --

8

I'm clarifying the question.

9

some initiative to say, hey, these guys are

10

infringing?

11

Where I would take

that at Lycos.

12
13

Q.

I -- I don't believe that I ever did

Were you involved in any way in a case

between Lycos and Choice Stream or Netflix?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

And what was your involvement in that

16

case?

17

A.

18

Stream.

19

Netflix, so I'm clarifying my answer there.

20
21

I'm not familiar with the Choice

Q.

I don't recall that.

But I remember

What was your involvement in that

case?

22

A.

I was approached by our general

23

counsel and asked to collect documents pertaining

24

to the inventions that were mentioned in that

25

case.

I don't recall which inventions they were.
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 66
1
2

A.

Yeah.

I -- I don't know what we're --

you know, what I would think in 1998.

3

Q.

What would you think today?

4

A.

Well, today it's pretty obvious that

5

those systems, you know, work in a lot of

6

different contexts.

7

Q.

But is it a fair statement that a

8

system for scanning a network and a system for

9

searching a network, in your mind in '98, would

10

be different things?

11
12

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

13

A.

I'm not sure in my mind in 1998 what I

14

would be thinking because that was a long time

15

ago.

16

So I -- I can't -- I don't know about that.
Q.

Well, how about in relation to your

17

inventions that are part of this case.

18

When they

mention scanning a network --

19

A.

Uh-huh.

20

Q.

-- what is it that you've got in mind

21

there?

22

MS. ALBERT:

23
24
25

A.

Objection.

Could you rephrase the question or --

or -Q.

Sure.

When your patents discuss
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 73
1

system.

2

wrote was called The Librarian.

3

Q.

The first major commercial one that I

All right.

Well, let's talk about a

4

search system that combined content-based- and

5

collaborative filtering.

6

MS. ALBERT:

7

A.

8

Q.

Objection.

constructed?

9

What was the first one?

10

The first one that I personally

All right.

What was the first one in

general?

11

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

12

A.

I don't know.

13

Q.

What was the first one that you

14

participated in constructing?

15
16

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

What was the first one?

17

help me to understand the question?

18

Could you

mean by "one" in that?

19

Q.

What did you

What was the name of the first search

20

system you participated in creating that combined

21

content-based- and collaborative filtering?

22

MS. ALBERT:

23

A.

24

please?

25

Q.

Objection.

Could you repeat that question,
What was the name?
What was the first search system -Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 75
1

combined collaborative filtering and

2

content-based filtering.

3

A.

Could you repeat the question?

4

Q.

When was the first time that you had a

5

search system that combined content-based

6

filtering and collaborative filtering?

7

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

8

A.

I don't recall.

9

Q.

What was name of the first system that

10

you had, working system that you had, that

11

combined content-based- and collaborative

12

filtering?

13

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

14

A.

I don't recall.

15

Q.

What are the possibilities?

16
17

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

The possible names?

Well, there are a

18

lot of, you know, different project names, and

19

sometimes research projects had names or -- or,

20

you know, code names or like Greek letters or

21

project numbers.

22

different possibilities.

23

projects.

24

Q.

25

So, I mean, there's a lot of
I ran a lot of research

Are there any that -- that you recall?
MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 82
1

universities at the time hosting products like

2

Lycos, in '94 and '95, I believe was

3

Lycos.cmu.edu.

4

period of time between research and commercial

5

web properties.

6

Q.

So there's a fuzzy line in that

How did you become aware of other

7

collaborative filtering engines on the web such

8

as Firefly and GroupLens?

9

A.

Sometimes I would meet people doing

10

those research projects because I frequently

11

spoke at universities or -- or, you know, gave

12

lectures.

13

they would tell me about projects.

14

might find them in a research paper or on a

15

website.

16
17
18

Q.

So I would shake hands with people and
Other times I

So did you meet the guys from Firefly,

guys and girls?
A.

While I was doing this, I didn't.

But

19

I did have the opportunity to meet Dr. Patti Maes

20

some years after Lycos had acquired WiseWire.

21

Q.

So you say here, "one of the first

22

collaborative filtering engines on the web."

23

What made you different from -- different, if at

24

all, from the other collaborative filtering

25

engines that were on the web?
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 83
1

A.

I believe that we were the first that

2

combined content and collaborative filtering in

3

the mechanisms that we -- that we used.

4

Q.

So how come you didn't actually say

5

that?

6

collaborative filtering engine?

7

Why didn't you say first content and

A.

Well, if you notice the pattern that I

8

in my profile, my most recent entries tend to be

9

larger.

And as I go back, I used less and less

10

leans to describe it.

11

line to describe everything that I did over the

12

two years at WiseWire.

13

particular words, I don't know.

14

that space at the time, I guess.

15

Q.

So I only used a single

So why I chose the
Whatever fit in

Just seems a little curious to me that

16

you have, for example, the '799 patent up on a

17

plaque that you say is content based and

18

collaborative filtering, that you wouldn't have

19

described it as content-based- and collaborative

20

filtering.

21

why you didn't?

22
23
24
25

Can you think of any other reasons

MS. ALBERT:

Objection, asked and

answered.
A.

I -- I don't know why I chose

particular words when I typed that.

I probably

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 84
1

typed that years ago.

2
3

Q.

All right.

You started in November of

1995 at WiseWire; is that right?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

Was it called WiseWire at the time?

6

A.

It was called Empirical Media at the

7
8
9
10
11

November 15th.

time.
Q.

And how is it that you came to be

involved with Empirical Media in November of
1995?
A.

Well, I had wrapped up a project for

12

the United States Senate, and that project

13

involved very early use of one of the very first

14

web browsers in late '94.

15

early technology possibly represented a huge

16

shift in the way that we used computers.

17

wanted very much to shift from doing these large

18

systems that I was working on to building systems

19

on the Internet.

20

And I felt that this

And I

So in 1994 I started poking around

21

people that I knew that were doing things on the

22

Internet, and I -- I'm not sure exactly who I

23

talked to at Carnegie Mellon, but somebody

24

eventually pointed me towards either Michael

25

Maulden or Ken Lang.

Dr. Maulden was a professor

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 88
1

that.

2

by "relation"?

3
4

Could you be more clear on what you mean

Q.

patent, what does "collaborative filtering" mean?

5
6

Well, in the context of the '799

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

I can talk to you about our invention,

7

but, you know, I haven't looked at the contents

8

of this patent in, you know, quite sometime.

9

Q.

All right.

Let's -- let's first take

10

a look at column 3, and then we'll talk about

11

your invention.

12

A.

Okay.

13

Q.

So take a look at column 3.

14

A.

I'm there.

15

Q.

At around line 3 or so.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

"A rating server predicts a score, or

18

rating, based on the heuristic that people who

19

agreed in the past will probably agree again."

20

Do you see that?

21

A.

Mmm.

22

Q.

Was that a decent summary, a fair

23

summary of collaborative filtering?

24
25

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Yeah.

Objection.

I don't know if that -- that's
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 138
1
2
3

Q.

But there was a version two to

U-Media?
A.

Well, there was a version two to this

4

content and collaborative filtering system that

5

we were rolling out.

6

started out as U-Media and then the name changed

7

to WiseWire.

8

company to WiseWire, we also changed the name of

9

the product that we were building to WiseWire.

10

It -- version two may have

When we changed the name of our

We had several permutations of that.

11

Q.

Was U-Media a website that Empirical

12

Media hosted?

13

A.

I don't recall if it was a website or

14

if it was the name of the product on the

15

empiricalmedia.com website.

16
17

Q.

What about wisewire.com, that was a

website that you hosted; right?

18

A.

It was a website that the company

19

hosted, yes.

20

Q.

And that was or was not one of the

21

major iterations of the product?

22

MS. ALBERT:

23

A.

Yeah.

Objection.

I -- I don't know if -- if that

24

was -- like I said, there was a branding change

25

that happened then, but I don't remember if we
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 139
1

made a substantive change to the feature set of

2

the software at that point.

3

Q.

What was the -- what substantive

4

change to the features of the software occurred

5

as a result of going from the first iteration to

6

the second iteration?

7

A.

8

Well -MS. ALBERT:

9

A.

Objection.

Yeah, I mentioned that I don't

10

remember exactly which features fell within which

11

major release.

12

to do with kind of the architecture of the

13

platform and -- as did the functionality or user

14

experience.

15

Q.

These major numbers had as much

Do you know what the difference

16

between the second release and the third release

17

was?

18
19

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

There were a lot of -- in any major

20

revision -- typically, the way software works is,

21

you have a major revision followed by a number of

22

minor revisions.

23

filled with bugs, as to be expected of any

24

software.

25

fixes some of the bugs and you may add a few

So you get version 1.0 is

Then version 1.1 comes out and that

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 159
1

projects and talk with him.

2

I didn't see all the details, I just saw the

3

summaries of the -- of the projects.

4

Q.

So often I didn't --

Who was the manager of the research

5

project that was directed towards search

6

combining collaborative- and content-based

7

filtering?

8
9

MS. ALBERT:
A.

10
11
12
13
14

17
18

Sorry.

That particular project was something

that Ken and I worked on exclusively.
Q.

And did you document the research,

that research project, in a Word document?

15
16

That particular project -THE WITNESS:

A.

Objection.

MS. ALBERT:
Q.

Excuse me.

Objection.
In a word processing

document?
A.

I recall that we had at least one

19

spreadsheet, several documents.

20

the whiteboard as well for this -- for this

21

project.

22

Q.

We did a lot on

But any -- any documents that still

23

exist that evidence any of this work that you --

24

that you say you did on search combining content

25

and collaborative filtering?
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 160
1

MS. ALBERT:

2

A.

3

exists.

4

the materials that are available.

5

Yeah.

Objection.

I don't know if anything still

I haven't methodically gone through all

Q.

Well, was it part of the document

6

universe that you collected back in, I think you

7

said 2007, for the Netflix litigation?

8

A.

Yeah.

I collected a lot of documents

9

from research servers, from backups of machines.

10

I mean, I was pretty diligent in collecting what

11

materials Lycos had.

12

manager also help me pull tapes and stuff from --

13

from our backup systems to try to get as many

14

documents from that time period as possible.

15

I also took snapshots of the source code.

16

nonpublic facing source code was in that source

17

code repository, and there were directories in

18

that repository for the different research

19

projects.

20

I had the operations

And

Even

So is it possible that there are

21

things in that collection?

I think it's very

22

possible that there are things in that

23

collection.

24

I didn't -- I didn't go through as I was picking

25

the documents and review individual documents.

Do I know of particular documents?

I

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 164
1

think that I said that probably the earliest it

2

could have been would have been then that -- that

3

we first had an idea of -- of bringing some of

4

these components.

5

There were a lot of different ways to

6

integrate those components.

7

system.

8

idea.

9

later that resulted in these or in these patents

10
11
12
13

It was a complicated

So I don't know when we hit upon the
It could have been, you know, considerably

that we had looked at earlier.
Q.

Did you keep any notebooks of your

work?
A.

I used to have some notebooks at one

14

point, notebooks that had primarily

15

WiseWire/Lycos things, yeah.

16

had anything particularly from the WiseWire time

17

period.

18

at -- at Lycos at that time.

I left all of my notebooks that I had

19

MR. BILSKER:

20

little while.

21

break now.

22
23

I don't know if I

We've been going for a

We may as well take our lunch

That's fine.
MS. ALBERT:

I'm fine with that.

It's like one o'clock.
Oh, it is?

Time flies.

45 minutes?

24

MR. BILSKER:

Yeah.

25

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

This the end of

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 214
1

A.

In -- in general or --

2

Q.

Yeah.

3

A.

At my time at Lycos.

4

very broad.

5

what, 14 years?

And you're asking me if I ever

6

did something.

I don't know if I can answer that

7

in any other way than -- than, I don't know.

The question's

I mean, it covers the scope of,

8

Q.

All right.

So let's cabinet it in

9

time, then.

10

A.

Okay.

11

Q.

Prior to December 1998, did you ever

12

adapt any techniques from information filtering

13

to search systems that you were creating?

14
15

A.

We certainly used various techniques

in some of those research projects that we built.

16

Q.

And what techniques were those?

17

A.

Various ways of parsing documents.

18

Various ways of stemming -- stemming is a

19

technical term.

20

Just an entire litany of -- of techniques.

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

Different linguistic analysis.

Any techniques related to

collaborative filtering?
A.

Certainly some of the techniques had

something to do with collaborative filtering.
Q.

Do you remember which of the
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 215
1

techniques had to do with collaborative filtering

2

that you used in search --

3

A.

I don't know.

4

Q.

-- or adapted from the early

5

information filtering techniques?

6

MS. ALBERT:

7

A.

Objection.

It's difficult for me to answer

8

because we had a lot of different research

9

projects, and many of them were on around ways of

10

improving the search experience.

11

you know, 1998 that we're talking about.

12

recall exactly which experiments had which pieces

13

in it.

14

And this was,
I don't

You know, these are not things that I

15

spent hours every day on the experiments.

16

were things that I parceled off to people to run

17

tests and get results back to me.

18

possibly a few hours of experience on some of

19

them and, you know, maybe a day of experience on

20

another.

21

indelibly etched in my memory.

22

Q.

They

So I've got

They're not things that are going to be

See, now I'm confused because earlier

23

today you said that you and Mr. Lang were the

24

only ones that were working on the search part of

25

the project?
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 254
1

Q.

So the first time a user made a demand

2

search and there wasn't a wire for it, the

3

collaborative part of the algorithm did not kick

4

in?

5
6

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

Well, there -- there were instances

7

that we could use the information that we might

8

have on one of the results that came up to make a

9

determination as to whether, you know, the

10

ranking of that result should be moved up or

11

down.

12

Q.

So tell me how that worked.

13

A.

In our prototype system, when -- when

14

you had multiple queries coming through, the

15

queries didn't necessarily have to generate the

16

exact same result set.

17

document that's in common between those result

18

sets.

19

semi-related query (indicating) clicked on that

20

document, might make that document rise up

21

numerically its score higher.

22

behavior might influence other queries.

23

But there might be a

The fact that somebody at this

Q.

So that pattern of

How did you know that a query was

24

semi-related as opposed to -- if it wasn't

25

identical, how did you know that it was
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 255
1

semi-related?

2

A.

Well, in my example I'm talking about

3

a case where the same result or the same document

4

was shown in both queries.

5

conclusion that there was a relationship between

6

the queries because they returned an instance of

7

the same document.

8

a very finite example here.

9

Q.

So I'm drawing the

And I'm kind of talking about

And then when you used -- when you

10

used that information where somebody had clicked

11

on the same document that showed up in the two

12

queries, what happened next?

13

A.

I don't know.

I could speculate.

I

14

mean, this -- this prototype that we're talking

15

about is a collection of different things and

16

it's, what?

17

hundreds of different corner cases.

18

it did something for those corner cases.

19

remember every single corner case a decade after

20

it was done.

21

Q.

22

one.

23

12 years ago.

We could walk through
I know that
I can't

Well, let's not go for every single

Let's just talk about the ones you

remember.

24

A.

Well, okay.

25

On those corner cases, I

don't know.
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 256
1

Q.

What do you mean by "corner cases"?

2

A.

When you get down to the detail level

3

of how some particular co-occurrence of different

4

things by different users for different document

5

sets for hypothetical queries, I'm not going to

6

be able to answer questions like that 10 years

7

after, you know, this was done.

8
9

Again, to remind you, I didn't build
these prototypes.

I helped collaborate with the

10

design of these things with Ken Lang who directed

11

the building of these prototypes.

12

much more familiar with the prototypes than

13

myself.

14

Q.

He would be

So when the prototypes were built, did

15

the builders have any leeway on how they were

16

implementing things or were they told exactly

17

what to do?

18

A.

I don't know how Ken directed them.

19

did not attend any of Ken's staff meetings or,

20

you know, research group meetings.

21

know, busy.

22

and myself.

23

Q.

I

24
25

I was, you

The collaboration was between Ken

The people that were busy building the

system, what kind of backgrounds did they have?
A.

Are you talking about the people who
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 258
1
2

MS. ALBERT:
A.

Objection.

I think that Lycos in 1998 was one of

3

the major leaders in the field, and there were

4

only a handful of companies that were employing

5

the same caliber of people.

6

Q.

Now, on the prototype that was

7

developed that you're familiar with, was it the

8

content-based filter that combined the results

9

that came from the content filter and the

10

collaborative filter?

11

MS. ALBERT:

Objection.

12

Q.

Let me -- let me withdraw that.

13

A.

Go ahead.

14

Q.

Where was the combination done of

15

information that came from the content-based

16

filter and the collaborative filter?

17
18
19
20
21

A.

The question "where" doesn't make a

lot of sense to me.
Q.

I mean --

In what software module was the

combination carried out?
A.

I don't think that we had a module

22

called the combiner module or anything like that.

23

I -- I don't know how to answer the question.

24
25

Q.

So was there a content-based filter

system that did the combining?
Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 259
1
2

A.

I think that I've answered that

question.

3

Q.

What's the answer?

4

A.

That I don't know.

5

Q.

Even in -- in the prototype you don't

6
7

know?
A.

I didn't go through the source code of

8

the prototype.

I looked at some of the results

9

and some of the test queries.

And, in fact, I

10

don't think that I actually used the live

11

prototype.

12

results we got, A.

13

got, B.

14

like these.

15

on or this turned off or these factors.

16

we're making progress.

17

the type of interaction I had with the system.

18

Q.

I think that I had, here's the search
Here's the search results we

Which do you think are better.

Well, I

Well, that was with the thing turned

All right.

Look,

Isn't this great.

That's

So I'm a little confused

19

again, because one of the things you said was

20

you're not intimately familiar with the patent,

21

but you're intimately familiar with your

22

invention and how it worked.

23

A.

Uh-huh.

24

Q.

And now I'm asking you about --

25

A.

You're asking me about code in a
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 260
1

prototype from 10 years ago, and I'm answering

2

you, I'm not sure exactly where in this code in a

3

prototype 10 years ago that I didn't write a

4

particular mathematical function happens.

5

Q.

So you don't know whether there was a

6

content-based filtering system that did the

7

combining of the content-based information in and

8

the collaborative-based information?

9

A.

10

I do not know.
(Kosak Exhibit No. 13, Kosak

11

PowerPoint presentation created for

12

WiseWire, bearing Bates Nos.~IPEL0000306

13

through IPEL0000314, marked for

14

identification as of this date.)

15

Q.

Do you recognize this document?

16

A.

I think this was a PowerPoint

17
18
19
20

presentation that I created for WiseWire.
Q.

What is agent mediated versus query

based on that first page?
A.

In the late '90s, agent mediated was a

21

buzz word in the industry, meaning that software

22

acted on your behalf.

23

equation versus query based, that's you're acting

24

on your own behalf entering a query and results

25

are coming out.

And the other side of that

That's how I interpret it today.
Veritext Corporate Services

800-567-8658

973-410-4040

Confidential Pursuant to Protective Order

Page 275
1
2

BY MR. BILSKER:
Q.

Mr. Kosak, when you were at Lycos, did

3

you fill out any kind of official form detailing

4

your invention before the '440 -- '420 or '664

5

were filed?

6

A.

I don't recall.

7

Q.

Were you involved in any way in the

8

prosecution, the back and forth between -- with

9

the patent office over the '420 or '664 patent?

10

A.

I was involved in about 50 or 60

11

patents with Lycos.

12

patents I handled particular pieces of inquiries

13

from the patent office.

14

that I'm a listed inventor that -- that I saw

15

them.

16
17

Q.

I don't recall exactly which

I'm assuming on the ones

Did you help in distinguishing any of

the prior art?

18

MS. ALBERT:

19

A.

Objection.

One of the difficulties I have in

20

answering this question is that the patent

21

numbers don't get assigned until years after the

22

fact.

23

on, I did research into prior art, and some of

24

the patents somebody else, one of the other named

25

inventors, did research in the prior art.

And in many of the patents that I worked

Veritext Corporate Services
800-567-8658

973-410-4040