USA v. State of Arizona, et al

Filing 148

Filed (ECF) Appellants Janice K. Brewer and State of Arizona Motion to take judicial notice of pertinent portions of legislative history from the Immigration and Reform Act of 1986. Date of service: 10/12/2010. [7505521] (JB)

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USA v. State of Arizona, et al Doc. 148 Att. 1 EXHIBIT A Dockets.Justia.com S. HRG. 99-273 IMMIGRATION REORM AND CONTROL ACT OF 1985 HEARINGS BEFORE THE SUBCOMMTTEE ON IMGRATION AN REFUGEE POLICY OF THE OOMMTTEE ON THE JUICIAY UNTED'STA'lES SENATE NINETY -NINTH CONGRES FIRST SESION ON S.1200 A BILL TO AMEND THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY Ac: TO EF. FECIVELY CONTROL UNAUTHORIZED IMMIGRATION TO THE UNllED STATES. AND FOR CYHER PURPOES JUNE 17. 18, AND 24. 1985 Serial No. J-99-35 Printe for the use of the Committe on the Judiciary ~ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING orrlCE 52-1450 WASHINGTON : 198~ S5~/-? "'-e- -. COMMITE ON THE JUDICIY ORRN G. HATCH. Uta ROBERT C. BYR, Wee Viiila _ A. K. SIMN, Wyoming HOWAR M. MEBAUM, Ohio SlM THOND, South Calina Ciiii CH Mc:. MATHIA, Ja., Marland JOSEP R. BIDEN, Ja., Delaware PAUL LAT, Nevad EDWAR M. KENEDY, M..hue JOHN P. EA, North Calina DENIS DiNCIN, Arna CHAR E. GRALEY, Iowa PATRCK J. LE, Vermont JERE DENN, Alaba HOWEL HEnN, Al AR SPEC Pennsylvania PAUL SIMON, Dlinoil MIT McONNEL Kentucky DINA L. WATD, Ckiwr°l Couiil DoLU G. BalUna, Chill Cieri D&1i W. SHEDD, Chilr Couiil all Staff Dita MA H. Glfna, Mirity Chill CoIlI SUBCMMIT ON IMMIGRATION AND R°u POLlCY - JERAH DENN, Ala PAUL SIMON, Winoil Jaay M. TlN.a, Mirity CoIlI CH E. GRALE, Iowa EDWAR M. KENEY, Muhwi RiCl W. DAY, Chitl Co"iil all Sta Direta mi AL K. SIMN, Wyomin, C1irii CONTENTS STATEMENTS OF COMMITlEE MEMBERS Grasley, Hon. Charles E., a U.S. Senator from the State of Iowa ........................ 291 Simpsn, Hon. Alan K., a U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming........... 1,245,401 Simon, Hon. Paul, a U.S. Senator from the State of Ilinois............................. 3,4,406 Denton, Hon. Jeremiah, a U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama..................... 31 PROPOSED LEGISLATION p. S. 1200, a bil to amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to effectively control unauthorize immigration to the Unite States, and for other pur. CHRONOLOICAL UST OF WITNESES MONDAY, JUNE 17, 1985 po..............,................................................................................................................. 493 Hesburgh, Rev. Theoore M., C.S.C. former chairman, Select Commission on Immigration and Refugee Policy..............~................................................................ 4 Fragomen, Austin 0., attorney at law and adjunct profesr, New York Uni- Teitelbaum, Dr. Michael S., proram offcer, Alfred P. Sloan Foundation; Dr. Barry S. Chiswick, visiting scllolar, Hoover Institution, Stanford University; David S. North, director, Center for Labor and Migration Studies, New versity; and Wade Hendersn, legslative counsel, American Civil Liberties Union.......... ................................................................................................................... 16 Transcentury Foundation; and Dr. Lawrence H. Fuchs, Walter &: Meyer Yzaguirre, Raul, preident, National Council of La Ra; Joe Tevino, execu- Jaffe Profesr of American Civilzation and Politics, Brandeis University.... 32. tive director, Leage of Unite Latin American Citizens (LULAC); Arnoldo Torre, vice preident, National Hisenic Leadership Conference; and Rich. ╩╠::~i~~i' ~~d1~┐╚i;)~~~~~.~.~~~~~~..~~~~~~~~..~~~.~.~r,~.~.~.~~~ 60 Vos, Hen!f, preident, California Farm Bureau; Michael V. Durando, prei. dent, Cahfornia. Grape & Tree Fruit Leage, Farm Labor Allance; George Born, executive vice president, Florida Fruit & Vegetable Asiation H-2 Colition; Edward Tuddenham, consultin~ attorney, Farm Wo~kers Justice Fund; and the Rev. Salvador Alvarez, Unite Farmworkers Union.................. 174 TuESDAY, JUNE 18, 1985 Scheuer, Hon. James H., a U.S. Represntative from the State of New york.... 245 Conner, Koer L., executive diretor, Federation for American Immigation Reform; Paul S. Egan, deputy director, National Leslative Commision, the American Legion; Jerri Jasinowski, executive vicelreident and senior Pingree, David H., seretary, Department of Health and Rehabiltative Serv. ecnomist, National Assiation of Manufacturers; an Dr. Rupert Cutler. executive diretor, the Environmental Fund.......................................................... 259 ices, State of Florida, on behalf of Governors' Asociation Task Forc on Immigration and Refugee Issues and Janice Peskin, principal analyst, 1~i1 Budget Analysis Division. Congresional Budget Offce...........................,....;...... aiS IV p... Dimarzio, Rev. Nicholas, executive director, Migration and Refugee Service, U.S. Catholic Conference; Dale.de Haan, director, Immigration and Refugee Program, Church World Service, National Council of the Churches of Chrit in the Unite State of America; Hyman Bokbinder, Washingtn repre sentative American Jewish Conferenceí and Althea Simmons, director, Washington Bureau, National Asiation for the Advancement of Colore People............................................................................................................................. MONDAY, JUNE 24, 1985 333 Richardson, Ron. Bil, a U.S. Reprentative from the State of New Mexico..... Jensen, Hon. LoweII D., Deputy Attorney General of the Unite State, U.S. 402 408 ~~u~:nTh~~~uli.:c~:;~~.´;~~~~:..├Fi;´o;..~Ű(~í;;:i;í..í;y..J;~; O'Grady, legslative reprentative, and Janet Kohn, asiate general counsel............................................................................................................................ Nelson, Alan C., Commissioner, Immigration and Naturalization Service .......... Keatinge, Richard H., chairman, COrdinating Committe on Immigration 422 436 Law, American Bar Asiation; and Ralph B. Evans, preident, Evans Farm Inn, and member, Labor Relations Committe, U.S. Chamber of Com- merc, accompanied by Virgnia Lamp, labor relations attorney...................... ALPHABETCAL LIST AND MATERIAL SUBMITED Alvarez, Salvador E.: Testimony.................................................................................................................. PrePlred statement ........ ................................................... ............. ......................... 457 174 211 Articles from Salinas Californian: May 8, 1985, "Row Over Labor Benefits ErlJ.lts" ....................................... 22 22 May 25, 1985, "Befugee Immigration Polic)' Hit" ...................................... 231 May 25, 1985, "Bord Won't StoTi Hansen Elecion" ................................. 22 M~~l.~~~:..'.:.~.~~.~~..~r,.......~:.:~~..~~.~~~.~..~~~.~.~~~..~~~~~ 22 May 30, 1985, "Chavez to Launch Strikes, Boycotts" .......................,........ 218 June 1,1985, "Hansn Elecion Gets Goahead" ........................................ 22 June 4,1985, "Hansn Worken to Vote on.Union Reprentation........ 22 Jun~ ~, W85, "Nine Salina° ALRB Worken File Chrge Against Stirbng .......................................................................................................... June 5, 1985, "Campaigning For UFW" ....................................................... June 6, 1985, "UFW To Led in Hansen Aí Vote" ................................... 1985......................................................................................................................... Bokbinder, Hyman: Testim:iny.................................................................................... Chiawick, Dr. Barry S.: Testimony............................................................................... May 13, 1985, "Ag Unions Tr to Organize Hansen Farms" .................. May 16, 1985, "Democrats Ehminate ALRB Counsel's Pll" ................... May 23,1985, "Teamsten Ask For Elecion At Hansen Farm.............. 219 223 22 S3 221 Letter: To Hansn Farm Employee from Fernando CApees, June 7, June 7,1985, "Nation's UnemploYJent Rate Holda Stedi" .................. 230 232 22 82 Conner, Roer L.: Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prpare statement ........................... ...................................................................... 259 261 272 A~::::...::~...~~~~..~~..~~~~~:.~~..~~~~.~.~...~~~...~~.~~:::...~~...~.~~ Cutler, M. Rupert: . Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prepare statement ...... ................................... .............. .......................................... 259 294 801 803 Appendix A: ''TF', U.S. Population Prjections For 19802030" ................. Appendix B: "Amnesty For Ilegal Aliens: A Population Bomb?" ................. De Haa, Dale: Testimony .................................................................................................................. 33 Teetimony.................................................................................................................. Prpare statement by Rev. Anthony J. Bevilacqua......................................... Donahue, Thomas R.: Teetimony ............................................................................................ .......;.............. Prpa statement ................................................. ................................................ Dimarzo, Nicholas: Prpare Statement................................................................................................. 858 33 8Sfi 422 424 v Donahue, Thomas R.-Cntinued P.. 429 174 183 enforcment mechanisms have ben institute.............................................. Durando, Michael V.: i::r:~~´Ű;nŰ~t::'::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Egan Paul S.: Testimony ...................................\..........................................................................:... Select commision reommends that legaliztion ben when appropriate 259 279 451 476 Eva~~l:'= ~~tement ................................................................................................. Testimony ..........:....................................................................................................... Prpare statement ...................... .......................... ............ .................... ................. Fajardo, Richard: 60 129 16 18 32 11) Fragomen, Austin 0.: ' ~::r:~t;´Ű;nŰ~´.:::::::::::::::::::::::~:::::::::::::::::::,::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prjlre statement .........:....................................................................................... Fuchs, Dr. Lawrnce H.: Testimony............................................................................. Hendl'rsn, Wade: Testimony ........................................................................................ Hesburgh, Rev. Theoore M.: Testimony.................................................................... Jaainowski, Jerry: 4. 259 286 408 457 ~timr:;~´Ű;nŰ~.´::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Jensen, b. Lowell: Tesimony .........:.............................................................................. Keatinge, Richard H.: ~timi:;~´Ű;n~~´.::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Lamp, nírgnia: Testimony... ...................................... ................................. .................. Nelson, Alan C.: Mee, Edwin, III: Prepare statement ....................................................................... ~::i:;~´ŰmŰ~´::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Telephone verification 8y°tem .......,....................................................................... North, David S.: Testimony............................................................................................ 459 457 415 43'6 440 456 32 Peskin, Janice: i::i:;~´ŰmŰ~´::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Ping, David H.: 313 323 Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prpare statement by D. Robert Graham ......................................................... Richardn, Bill: Testimony..... ........... ............ ............... ............ .................................... Scheuer, James A.: . 313 316 402 Testimony.................................................................................................................. Born, Gerge: . Torre, Amoldo S.: Farmworker Justice Fund, Inc., fact Simmons, Althea T.I..: . Prpare statement ............. ............. ............ ......................... .................................. ~:~;~´Ű~Ű~´::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 25 33 38 32 60 245 ~::':~~´Ű~Ű~´:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::':::::::::: Teitelbaum, Dr. Michael S.: Testimony...............................................................˛....... 174 198 Testimony ....................................................................:............................................. Prepare statement ............................................................................................. .... Congiional Budgt Ofce letter to Congman Don Edward from Tuddenha, Edward J.: Rudolph G. Penner, February 27,1985............................................................ 101 104 sheets........................................................ 113 Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prepare statement .......................................... .......................................... ............. Trvino, Joe: Testimony.................................................................................................. Vos, Henry: 174 204 60 174 176 Testimony.................................................................................................................. Prpare statement ................................................................................................. yza~~;~:...................................................................................,............................ Prpared statement .............. ........................................................ ......... .................. 60 63 VI Yzairr, Raui-entinued Prpared ittement-entinued .. Attachment A: Attahment B: National Council or La Ra, undocumente immigts in the labor market: Rent Rerch Finding Februar 1985 ............. 72 Employer sactiona and Attachment c: Attaiihment D: job dianmination, June 17, 1985.............. 81 Efecivene° of labr law enforcment in deterr ilegal immi. gration, March 1984.............................................................................. 84 ~M;;~!~ei'7~r;~ ~~.~~~..::~~~.~::...~~~~~~~~..~~~~..~~: 93 APPENDIX S. 120, a bil to amend the Immiation and N:\tionality Act to effecively control unauthori imigation to the UJiite State, and for other pur. . po; to the Committe on the Judiciary ............................................................... 493 Kenney, Rort C., vice preident, Government Relations, Unite F'h Fnut I: Vegetable' A°iation ............................................................................................. 610 tr.. IMMIGRATION REFORM AND CONTROL ACT OF 1985 MONDAY, JUNE 17, 1985 U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEE POLICY, CoMMITEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, DC. Offce Building, Hon. Alan K. Simpsn (chairman of the subcommitte) presiding. The subcommitte met, at 9:30 a.m., in room 226, Dirksn Senate Presnt: Senators Denton and Simon. Staff presnt: Richard W. Day, staff director and chief counsel; Carl Hampe, John Ratigan, Deborah Gibbs, and Charles Woo. OPENING STATEMENT OF ALAN K. SIMPSON, A U,S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WYOMING Senator SIMPSN. The hearing will come to order, plea. '.. the Frida,. hearing, but aftr we had all that goo progres in the Senate with clean water and the Nuclear Relatory Commision, and our leader said "I think we can wind up Frdar.," I sad: Goo morning. I want to stres I was very sorry we had to cancel "Great. I wil head for Coy, WY." And so I did so, and it was only beuse of our accelerate schedule there that I was able to do that. We wil pick up toay, just ~here we left off. Well, Father Ted Hesburgh. Nice to se you there. I will come to rou in just a moment. Always a fleasure to have you. You are very tor McC. Mathias and Senator Howell Hefln, who are no longer on the subcommitte. I.deeply appreciate their help in every way. them and benefiting from them. - importnt to me and my past. want to expres appreciation for tWG able members who served on the subcommitte last year, SenaWe have two new fine members, Senator Jerr Denton and Sena- tor Paul Simon. I am very much looking forward to working with Speaking of Senator Simon, there he is, and it is a real pleaure to have him on this subcommitte. I look forward to working with him and benefiting from his thoughtful participation, and I wil have that, beause I know PauL. We were legilators toether in State legilative activities, so it is a persnal privilege to have them aboard. I wil say come on in, the water is fine. It is hot, but it is fine. People do not usually crash the doors dow to get on to this subagain to working. with Senator Grasley, ,!ho has ben my strong committe, so you are welcome. Very welcome. I look forward (l 38 sions of thi bil, both within the INS and in other relevant Governent agencies such as the Department of Labor. unhap'pily aware, the U.S. Cong is held in. very low public A (mal comment: Mr. Chairman, as all Members of Conges ar estem. Given the reent history of scdal, pork bal and other speial interest_ activities on the pa of some members, some of thi negative image is justifed. However, someone has to say_ that durig the pat 4 yea of debate on immigation reform, Members of thi Hous have proved able to ri above parochi and ideologca considerations in the interet of reform that clearly serve the national interet, They have diligently pursued rened and baance proPO in a cautious and sensitive manner, in the full expetion that their politica carers were unlikely to benefit and might well suffer as a reult, In so doing, they tok grt ca to avoid the exce of xenophobia and racism that prevaied in an previous national debate on immigation policy, although rert to such appe might have incre political support for adoption, Whe some have taen considerable flak from voc lobby grupe for their effort, anyone who has red the remarkable series of laudatory edtori from national and loc med arund the country must acknowl- ede that their effort have established them as repe leaders on the national scne. Meawhie the oppoition ot other prominent Members of Cong, ba on igorace or on pahial ec nomic, ethnic or pais interets, have inct severe daage upon their reputations and crebilty. Cyics may doubt thi, but it doe apper that statemanhip on imigation reform pays handsme politica dividends. appretion for your attention, -And with that, I Wil stop and expre my Senator SDiN. Thank you very much, . Now, it is in the order of our agenda, Dr. Barr Chck, plea. Dr. CHISCK. Thank you very much. .. this subcmmitt, Let me just say at the outst that -although I am a reh profesr at the University of Dliois, at Chcao and a viitin scholar at Staford University's Hoover Intitution, I I _am very plea to be here, to be once agai tetif before spe for neither of thes intitutions. I speak onl for myself, and my comments ar to be attribute solely to me, although I hope afr they ar hea, the, wil be shar by many others. gal aliens in paicular, bean nealy a decde ago when I served in 1976 as tehnica advir to the Domesic Council Commtte on Ilegal Aliens, chaire by then Attorney Genera Edwar Levi. Th My reh intere m immigtion isues in general, and Ule- topic ha ben my priar reh intere for the pa decde, The Ford admintration endors the Domestic Council Commt- te's remmendations that employer sactionS iihould be enacte and amnesty should be grante, We ar here to, a dece later, diusin the sae propo. I believe that employer sactons and amnesty: have not ben enact preisly beus sepaately and jointly they ar percived as bebU contrary to the be inter- ests of the Americ8 public. And I believe tht th P.rcption is corr. Rather th rehashig old stae propo, it is tie to 39 bring freh idea to the isue. It is in thi spirit that I otTer the new policy remmendations with which I clos thi tetimony. have learned from my rerch and what I would like to convey to this subcmmitte. A fuller version of the analysis and policy re This tetimony must necily be a condens version of what I ommendations are to be found in my coauthore bok with Pas tora Sa Juan Caerty, Andrew Greley and Teres Sullvan, "The Dilemma of America Immigation: Beyond the Golden Dor," Tran~tion Boks, 1983. The most rent public focus on immigation has ben with re s~ to ilegal aliens, From the last days of the Ford administration to the presnt, each seion of Conges has given serious con- sideration to the enactment of legilation to grant amnest1 to ilegal aliens living the Unite State, to impo for the first tune Federal sanctions on employers of ilegal aliens, and to strengthen enforcement at the border, The persistence with which the leglation is brought forward, the heate debate, the widely divergent support in the Hous and Senate, and the periodic changes in poition of Presidents and Presidential cadidate sugests that ilegal aliens are a diffcult policy isue. State by jobs provided by the ecnomy and beus there is an incomplete enforcment of immigration law by the Government. Ilegal aliens impact on the labor market bY. decreasing the earnin Ilegal aliens exit beus workers are attracte to the Unite and employment o~portunities of some U.S. workers and increaing them for other U .8. workers. The siz .of the ilegal alien popula- tion is believed to be large and growing. It has recntly ben estimate by 8 Census Bureu statistician that there were S to 6 million ilegal aliens reiding in the Unite State in 1980. It is al estimate that half of Every indication sugests that the continued deterioration of the thes ilegal aliens ar Mexica national. Mexican ecnomy and politica upheaval in Central and South America will be further spurs to ilegal immigation. Yet, we know surpriingly little about ilegal aliens. There is a leglative staemate in Washigtn, Too few resurc are budgete to enforcment for the Imi:ation and Naturaliz- tion Servce, INS, to have any substatial impact. Yet, there is an unwillngnes to publicly acknowledge this lack of wil and offer amnesty, This public ambivalence has ben quite obvious for at leat a decde. The leglative staemate may not reprent a lack of wil, but rather may be interprete as a ration81 shortrun repons to a policy dilemma. We want foreig workers. but not their dependents. We allow il~al migation but keep the probabilty of art and deporttion lugh enough to diurage the entl' of family members. Amnesty, of cours, would allow erstwhile ilegal aliens to bring~ their dependents-spous, minor chidren, aged parentsto the Unite State. Th would give them acces to our syetem of fre public education as well as to the generous welfar and soia servce benefits that were desiged to help America didvan- taed throuah no fault of their own. The welfar benefits include Aid to Familes with Dependent Chidren (AF, Foo Staps. Supplementa Seurity Income (SSn and Medcad. Beus we want the workers but not the dependents, end we rind it awkwar 40 to 88' so openly, we perptuate a cat and mous game between the immlgation authorities and ilegal alens. more information on ilegal aliens, We prefer continued obfu. If Ui interpretation is corr we nee not be concerned with tion of the isues to the embarrent that clarcation miht committe reiz, the monsr wil eventuay wake up, and lare, retles and low-°kied ile° alen populattons. . To put thes matters in hinca perspeve, it is importt to bri. It is appantly better to let the monsr sleep, As thi sub- more ma°ive soial and ecnomic problems may be at lud-a celebrate the 100h annivers of ilegal aliens in the Unite indicate that the ilegal alien isue IS not new. In thi dece we State, The first ilegal aliens were Ches beus the firt ba riers to legal imtion were impo 8lait unkiled Ches workers in the 1880's. There was a racis fea of the "Yellow and deprein wages for similarly unskiled white. It is unliell. that the fea ma°ive migation would have taken place even if Peri," of hoard of unkiled Ches workers floo Caornia there were no baers. Perhaps more intria, data frm rent census indicate that the desndants of the Ches workers have achieved hiher levels of schoolin, ocupational status and ea. in tha t˝e desndats of the white who, a century ago, be lieved the Ches could never be anythi but unkiled laborers, In the 20h century, however, the mai locus ha ben on Mexi. ca ilegal aliens. A cyclica pattern ha emerged, Duri period of politica turmoil or ecnomic slack in Mexico, the miation is northwar. Duri period of ecnomic slack in the Unite State the northwar flow is slowed or stppe, and sometimes revers. bom, in the ealy 19~O's and duri the eaiy 1950's, the net flow In the 1920's, duri the reion followi the World War I who "look Mexica," may have ben towar Mexico. Thes revers DOWB have someties ben generate by wholese arts and deporttions of persns Even in the 1980's, Mexica national form the bul of the ilegal alen population, The data on apprehensions indicate that 90 percnt ar Mexica nationa, But thi statisic overste the pro leg, beus it is relatively inexpensive to catch peple °nea aCl the border and deport them, In addition, mlD Mexica Wega aliens work in the Unite Stte only pl of the yea and they return to Mexico dur the slack sen, Sinoo apprehensions ar most likely to tae pla at or shorty afr entry, th to and fr portion of Mexica in the ilegal alen popultion, INS concen. trate its reur along the Mexica border. perhaps, as soma al. mition al ra the proporton of Mexica nationa in the ar data relative to the st of ileg aliens redi ii the Unite State. It is believed that abut ha of the ilegal alen popultion liyi in the Unite State ar Mexca nationa and tlt the other haf come frm a wide ra of countries and aU pa of the globe. As, Afca, Nea Eaner° Euro~ and Caad ar al reprente among ilegal alens. Of the Mexica ilegal alens abut 70 percnt oriate in 6 State of Mexco's Centn Plateu, Th is a por ar which served as a battlefield duri the revolu- West Indi, Central and South America Ea Ao South 41 tions and rebellons ealier in thi century, and which has ben ~ over by_ whatever benefits emerged from the Gren Revolu- thrugh widernes are, Where rivers form part of the border, tion of the 1950's and the shortlived oil bonan in the 1970's. There Ôre rens why Mexico provides the larest number of Ulegal aliens. We shar a border about 2,00 miles long which runs they ar oftn shallow and eay to cro. Hence, entr) without in- speion is relatively eay for Mexica national. Ilegal aliens frm mOlt other countries either us fraudulent documents to enter the Unite State or have to violate a legal vi, such as Mexico and Caada for the purp of surrptitiously enterin the Unite State. Ea of entry may be a necesr) condition for ilegal immigation, but it is not a suffcient explanation. Aftr all, the boider with Caada is as eay to cro° as the border with Mexico, yet there ar relatively few Caadian ilegal aliens; les than one percent of apprehended ilegal aliens ar Canadian nationals. Nor are legal immigants more numerous from Canada than from Mexico. In rent yea, there have ben fewer than 15,00 Canadian immiworking in violation of a student or viitor vi, or overstaying their vi. Increasingly, national of other countries ar using grants annually, whie legal immigants from Mexico have exce- ed 65,00 annually, The Unite StateMexica border is unique. There is no' other border 88j)atin 2 countries that difer so sharly in average income. The temptation to go north to strike it rich worki as a busboy, a dihwasher, or fruit picker is just to strong to reist. Mexico's ecnomy has not done well in the 20th century in spite of with falling death rate, paicularly infant mortity rate, have generate large cohort of youths. Development policy has focus City, the border town, and the Unite State. . its abundance of natural reurc. Hih fertilty rate combined on C8J)ta intensive rather than labor intensive sers of the ecn- omy, The poverty and absnce of job opportunities, paricularly in the rural are, have generate a masive migation to Mexico Unite State in the bracero proam. Th was a contract far labor proam sta in 1942 to augment war-time labor supplies Many Mexica farworkers gaied e~perience workig in the and was termate in 1964. As a reUlt of the experience gained in ers had their appetite whette for the goo Ufe up north. They, the bracero pro, hundre of thousds of Mexica farmworktheir younger brothers, their sons, ,bee ilegal aliens when the bracero proam ended and other opportunities for legal migation were reuce, Indee, in the face of a grwig supply of immi- grants from Mexico, the impoition of the numerica ceilng on Western Hemisphere immigation in 1968, and the country ceiling in 1977, reuce avenues for legal m~ration, thereby generatin preure for incre ilegal immigation. There is little solid data on the demogaphic or labor market chactriics of ilegal aliens, The data on apprehensions sugest that they ar preominantly low-°kied, young adult, age 18 to 80, males fim Mexico. Whe it is undoubtey true that the appre hensions data ca be expete to exageratÚ thes very charactri tics, it sems renable that qualitatively thes charcteritions 42 are accurate. Ilegal aliens tend to be unskiled in part beus workers in higher skiled jobs may have more diffculty in masking their ilegal status and in part beuse an ocupational license, certification or union membership may be reuire. In addition, be caus of the existence of skils that are speifc to the country in which they are acquired, apprehensions and deporttions may be any skils. Thus, among unsuccful vis applicant, or potential more cotly for skiled ilegal aliens than for workers with few if applicants, thos with few or no skils have the grter incentive to attempt an ilegal entry: . The skewed demogaphic compoition of ilegal aliens and the high rate of to and fro miration, particularly with respe to Mexico, are conseuence 0 ilegal. alien workers leaving their wives, young children and aged parents in the home country. This doe not ari from their preference, but from the circumstances of their ilegal status. Dependent famil1. members are costly_ to move to the Unite State. particularly if ilegal means are to be us. Once in the Unite State, the dependents may not confer the eligbilty for welfare and soial service benefits that legal reidents may reive. Indee, the depÚndents may increas the proba- bilty of the entire family being apprehended and deport. In addition, their prence makes deporttion more cotly. istics of this population would change. The extent of to and fro migration would decline, the .ratio of dependents to workers would in- If ilegal alien workers were grante amnesty and could bring their dependents to the Unite State, the demogaphic character- cre and, beus of the low skil level, the family members would be eligble for a variety of welfareincome transfer-and °oial servce proams. In addition, the incentive for even more familes to move north would incre under the relistic view that against amnesty. . if amnesty is grante once, it will be grante again, Hence the ca But what about a more vigorous enforcment of immigration law? The trends have, if anything, ben in the oppoite diretion, The number of permanent poitions in the Immigation and Naturaliztion Service incre from 7,00 in 1960 to nearly 11,00 in 1979, a 6Opercnt incre. During the same period, however, the annual number of legal immigants doubled from one-uartr of a milion per year to one-half of a milion. Non-immigant admis sions of aliens 88 tourits, students, et cetera. increas eightfold from 1.1 milion to 9.3 milion per year And the number of appre hensions of ilegal aliens incre 14-fold from 70,00 to abOut 1 sourc. milion. Clearly a tremendous strain has ben place on INS re on border enforcment at the expense of interior enforcment. However, there is a revolving door at the border in which large numbers of ilegal aliens are apprehended one night, to be deport the next day, to try again on a subsuent night. Except for depor- To try to clos the flooate, INS has concentrate its reurc tation, there are no penalties impo on ilegal aliens, even thos who are flagant repet offenders. But apprehensions and deport- tions at the border impo relatively little cot on ilegal aliens, particularly thos from Mexico. The cat and mous game along the 43 border incre apprehensions per milion dollar of budget ex. penditure, but may have little deterrnt effec. What ar the bŔnefits of currnt policy The benefits come in the form of the incre in income to the native population of the Unite State frm a larer pol of low4kiled imt workers, An incre in the supply of low4kiled fore~ workers depre cre the prouctivity of complementa factrs of prouction, the wages and woriw Col1iditions of low4k▀ed native workers, and thi reives much public attention, Wht reives les public notice is that the incre in the number of low4kied workers in. that is, hiher skied workers and capita. Any factr of prouction is more prouctive the more of other factrs with whicli it ca it when it bre down, and rere trafc away from the con. work, A bulldozr on a rod consruction projec is more prouctive if there ar more workers to keep it runni 24 hour a day repar struction site. A scientist is more prouctive if there ar asists to clea the tet tube, ru simple experients, do bibliogaphic re seh, typ manusripts, et cetera. gration of low4kiled workers ar likely to exce the lo°. to native low4kiled workers. Th mea that as a reult of low. skilled megal migation the income of the native U,S. population is incre. . . Unite State llegalli, perhaps 3 to 6 inlion peple. The gai in income to skiled workers and capita frm the mi. tions on imm˙ation, there ar a lere number .of ~ple in the They ar di Thus, I have outlined the policy dilemma. As a reult of retric- p'ropartionately unkiled young adult males from Mexico. Indee, it is laely beus of their megal status that they do not bri their dependent family members. Thes workers ar prouctive native population. and they increas the income of the native U.S, popultion, al. though they incre inequality in the ditribution of income in the On the other hand, if the ilegal aliens bro~ht their dependent family members with them, they would be elible for a varety of welfare, soial servce, and educational pro. Since the work. ers ar low skilled, their us of thes benefits could exce the in. cre income of the native. population, Tht is, the incr in popwation. ta't'3 neeed to pay for thes proam for the dependents of the ilegal aliens miht eaily exce the gai in income to the native By legal the status of megal alens, they could bri their dependents to the Unite State and clai benefits frm the vare- ty of public proam that subsidi the por, the youn and the aged, And amnesty encouraes further ilegal imigation bous of the reistic expetation that if offere once it wi be offere re ceptable. The cots of strict eJ█orcment ma be very hih in term of civi liberties and of reurc devote to enforcment activities, A grtly enhance and bettr ~uippe sta of INS agnts would be reuir to incre the effecivenes of intoriQr enforcment as well as border enforcment, but would be. mote cotl. &ictons patey, Hence, ainesti is percived as an unaccptale .solution. Strict enforcment of immiation law is al percived as unac agt employers who knowily hi ilegal aliens ar freuently propo, although for employer sactions to ~ effecive a national 44 identity system, or regtration, of one sort of another would be re quire. It sems inappropriate to compel employers to enforce a law that the Federal authorities show little will to enforce. Employer sactions are the equivalent of an employment ta. Th ta rai the relative cost of labor, particularly for low skilled, high turnover jobs. The impoition of such a ta may further worsn the job opportunities of low-skilled workers legally in the Unite State, particularly youths and minorities. But perhaps the greatet cot of strict enforcement would be the 106 of the income the native population gains from the work of illegl aliens. servce benefits and the other not. We ca view amnesty and a to cotly, The conseuence of currnt policy, however, is the pres. may be optimal given that we do not want a legal system that sactions a two-las soiety-one eligible for welfare and soial From the shortrun perspetive, the current legilative staemate stringent enforcement of immigation law as polar approaches to solving the_problem, but for diterent reasns they are viewed as ence of a large and apparently growig seent of the population th&, lives at the marK1n of or outside the law, As this population and soial preures will also grow. A polic1 that looks optimal in .the short run may thus not be so attractive in the long run. grws, and as increasing numbers of children of ilegal aliens are born in the Unite State, and hence are U.S. citizns, the political delinea~ our P!'0rities and p'licy op,tions regarding ilegal aliens. This disusion sugests that as a soiety we nee to more clearly A J)rtial solution. to the dilemma 18 to restore a modest guest worker pl.gram. To disur8Ke temporary workers from evolvi entry would be permitte only for the guest workers and not for dependents, the contracts would be for a short maximum number of mCliths-say 6 months-and only for jobs with clealy dermed seasnal patterns. REturning to the home country would be re quired before a worker could reive a new contract, and a limit might be place on the tota number of contracts that a worker into pei:mlŘient workers outside the relar immigration system, could receive. To induce compliance, two typ of penalties could be impo on thos who enter the country ilegally, who violate the condition of a legal entry, or who violate the terms of their temporary worker contract. One penalty would be a J!robation period durig which a barre. The other would be detention of the ilegal worker for a period of several months prior to deporttion. legal entry as a guest worker, viitor, student or immigant is Under current policy, there is some probabiltr that an ilegal alien will be apprehended. But the penalty if one 18 apprehended is very low, particularly for Mexica national appl'liended at the boreer. . There is no deterrent effect from apprehending individual who violate the law if there is no penalty when apprehended. Hence, current policy rearding apprehended il~al aliens has little or no deterrent effect, particularly rearing Mexica nation- al. Detention may be .the only mechÓnism for reucin the extent to which the border is treate as a revolving door. Pecuniary tines are inappropriiite for the low-income ilegal alien population beus 45 they could not be collec, However, a fme in term of time-etention-for several months would be cotly to the alien and have a deterrent effec. ' The miior criticism of detention is usualy expre in term of the hih cot of incarcrating 1 milion apprehended' ilegal aliens. the border, the number of ilegal entries would fall. AB a reult, the But .this exagerate the problem. Beus of the revolvig door at sae border enforcment reurc would mea fewer apprehensions but would rai the probabilty that an attempte entry re sults in an apprehension, further diuragg ilegal mition. source. Finally, low-ct minimum seurity detention facilties could be constructe in rural areas near the Mexica border, Thes policy reommendations wil not end all ilegal imlsa- Indee, with the impoition of meaingul penalties, grter deterrence could be obtaed even with fewer border enforcement re tion. However, by providig both the opportunity and incentives for operating within a legal framework they offer a better hope than currnt policy, or the employer sactions/amnesty feature of the leglative initiatives of the pat decde, of controlling ilegal immigation, Thank you for the opportunity to tetily before the subcmmit- te, Senator SIMPSN, Thank you very much, Dr. Chiwick, Mr. NORTH. Thank 'you, Mr. Chairman. . This boy is agai holdi heari on the question of ilegAl im- Now, David North, plea. . . Nice to se you agam, sir. . an extremely diffcult, paful problem made more so by a nea to tae some action, but more information would be extremely migration and what to do about it, llnd agai the committe face tota lack of data on the subject. Clearly we know enough to want gap. helpful, Th administration and its preecesrs of both paies have bemoaed the lack of data, but have done little to clos the The Immigation Servce, which is clost to the problem, has not ben paicularly helpful. INS literally ha its hands on appre hended il~al aliens 1.2 milion times a yea, but it has not worked out a tehnique to estimate the number of peple it apprehends as . oppo to its excellent workload data on the number of times it arts an ilegal alen. Further, about 300 milion times each yea, persns enter the Unite State through INS facilties, and pre sumably somethi like 800 mion times a'yea peple leave the Nation through thes sae facilties, but INS caot tell us much about thos enterig and ca tell us nothi abut thos leavi, creble organiztion, like the Bureu of Labor Statistics, be set up withi the Immigation Servce to collec and analyz data on thes subjec. Perhaps the bil before the commtte could be amended to authori the cretion of such a boy. Mf. first sunestion toy is that a strong, independent, hihly goin through the port of entry. I like thi pa of the bil for two rens: It wi rai funds from peple who us the facilties, My send suggestion relate to the propo usr fee for thos which makes sens, and it ca rai a lot of money quite legti- mately and pae°ly. Send, if handled riht, thes usr fee ca 46 provide us, almost automatically, with a great deal of information ers, it could ~give us a sense of the net flows of persns in and out of the Unite State, If we knew that there were, say, 300 milion ar- on the flows of persns in and out of the Unite State, For open- rivals a year and only 299 milion - departure, then we would sus pet that the flows through the port produce a net increas in the population of 1 milion. This -would be in addition to the net flows, ilicit ones, between the port. On the other hand, we might find there were more departure than arrval through the port beus EWI's, at the southern border, avoid the port on their way into the country, but use them on their way out. It should be note that Prof. Daniel Vining of the University of Pennsylvania has done the pioneerinJi work in this area, seking to estimate the net immigation by air by a similar method. He counts the exces of the airborne arrivals over departures and then subtracts out the legal immigrants and refugeeb1 air-and the reidual is the estimate ilegal immigration by air. Let me make some speifc suggestions in this ref-ard. First, change in setion 102(aX3)() the word' aliens" to "per- sons" thus making the usr fee apply to all usrs of the port. To distinguish between citizns and aliens-when we are dealing with about 600 mil.ion events a year-is both labor-intensive and not very helpfuL. . Seond, the statute should reuire that all persns entering and leaving the country should pay usr fee. In this way, we could seure some of the net data note above. Thrd, set up a tollgate approach with a schedule of fee desiged to crete both revenue and solid information. The Immigation Servce, like most Government agencies, is better at counting money than peple. Let us set the fee so that a particular coin indicate a particular movement. Somethirig like this: charge pees- trians leaving a nickel; peestrian arriving pay a dime; auto leavingpay a quartr; cars arriving pa)' a dollar bil. Change would be available, but the fee would have to be pad in the units note. At the end of the day, INS could put the money in separate containers for nickels, dimes, quartrs, and dollars and weigh them, which would produce pretty goo estimate of the through coin counting machines. A similar arrangement should be made-with h╠lher fee, of cours-for thos going through the international airport. The fee should be higher for two rens: it number of arrival and departures, or they could run the money cots more to insl)t peple at airprt tlian at land port, and thos who ca aford a plane ticket are usually better off than thos who cros the border by foot or in cars. are approximately 600 milion entrances and exits each yea, and we prouce milion Servce I said that sub°tltial sums could be rai in this way. If there levied fee that averaged. say, 20 cents each, that would $120 millon a year, or more than 14 percnt of the $840 the bil seks in authoritions for the entire Immigation for risl year 1986. which sems about riht bas on earlier INS data on the subject, There wil be objecions, of cours. Border retalers, peple who make their livi beus they have opened stores near the border, 47 will complain. The pae out of the country by citizns and aliens alike wil be slowed slightly as they.go through the tollgate and- turnstiles. The introuction of thi hihly renable usr fee wil be attacked by some border State leglators, who wil se it as more of a nuisce than stil one more way to attack the deficit. Thes leglators are more likely to be from the northern tha the southern border, where such fee ar familar, I should add in pa ing that loc governments, in both TˇÔs and Mexico, have 10" since disovere thi revenue source. Further, an individua Amen- ca, living in a white frame hous near the bridge in Pridio, TX, has profite hadsmeli from his p~wners˝ip of that bridge acro the Rio Grande. Similarly. a Mexica national, a physicia in Monterry has the monopoly at Lo Ebos, another minor Rio Grande croin. or at leat did when I was last there. Should not the U.S. Government shar in thi sourc of income? Paricularly when we ca lea something sigifcat at the sae time, Thank you fo'i inviting me to tetif. Senňtor SIMPl'.N. Thank you very much. It is very helpfuL. Now, Dr, Fuchs. Glad to &elou, sir. sion. On employer sactions, I strongly endors employer sactions as nondisriminato1' in curtling future flows of undocumente on this bil and paricularly on the propo Lealiztion Commi Dr. fuCHS. Mr. Chairman, welcome the opportunity to tetify the enforcment method most likely to be effective, humane and seure method of identifY thos eligible for work. I endors the aliens, although I wih we could ~ the system with a more grant of authority to tlie -Preident to us counte˝eit-reist er penalties for violators of the law, Soial Seurity ca as an identifer, and the incorpration of stif- larg sce guest worker proam in expetin the rerutment On temporary agcultural worken, I se no major daner of a and hiri of senal agcultural labr. as long as. strong labr a phasown schedule, and I urge Cong to ret any further thi leglation for baance and fairnes be destroyed. certifcation proure ar retaed, The bil is extremely generous to agcUltural employers in providi them with a 8-yea period in which they may continue to hire undocumente aliens on lobbyill by the growers for speial privieges. lest the reputation of You have asked me to comment briefly on the Lealtion Commision, which would be chaed with intituti a legaliztion &liens ar substatially effective, Mr. Chrm. the idea of the Le galiztion Commision reprents a retret from the much more in pro upon decidi that meaure to curt the flow of ilegal .overal enforcment by concentratin INS reurc at the borders and port of entry and on enforcin employer sactons. It would straihtforwar and practica approh of siultaeity emboed 'the Simp°n-Mazli bil. A legaltion proam simultaeous with the introucton of emplayer sactions, or clos to it. is desirle beus it enhce be a mitae for the INS to expena reur in traki alena who have ben in thi country contiuousiy for at leat 6 yea just when it nee to step up conventional enforcment to locte more rent entrants and to curt future flows. 48 begin a legalization program, the sooner we wil have comprehen. sive information about the origins of ileKal aliens. the route they take in order to enter the country. their characteristics and im. Enforcement wil be aided by simultaneity beause the soner we effective legalization program. It is in the interests of the Unite neity is likely to lead to a more comprehensive, simple and cost. States, not just the aliens. to reduce substantially the exploitable pacts, and about patterns of smuggler use and visa abuse. Simulta. underclas that lives and works among us and to put them into a poition to upgade their education and skils so that they wil con. tribute much more to soiety than they do now. beame convinced that it is inherently a bad idea. It wil complicate enforcement. It wil contribute to a negative image for the to imagne how it might work under the bet of circumstances. I Having said this. I stil would like to make the Legalization Com. mission work, should Congres legislate it into exis!tnce. In trying INS. It wil compromise the objective of a comprehensive legalization prop-am. It wil create a piece of Government machinery to make a Judgment Congres has already made and can make again. Let us imagne a bet ca scenario. The bil pas this year and employer sanctions are institute in January 1986. More funds are appropriate to enhance enforcement. The President a~points the 16 Commissioners from the panel submitte by both House, and they are universlly acclaimed as fair and high minded. Let us suppo that by January of 1988, a unanimous Commission decides that the new enforcement measures are substantially effective. that the legaliztion program should begin in April 1988. and that for the next 12 months, a majority of the ilegal aliens who have ap~lying for immigrant status 30 months later. ben in the Unite State more or les continuously since January I, 1980, applr for temporary resident status, with the prospet of Under this bet ca. there would be a period of about 2% years between pase of the bil and the institution of the leaalization progam. During that time. long-time ilegal aliens who intend to apply for legalization wil be picked up by the INS, including some who are respete in their communities. Deportation proceeings against them wil be institute; their lawyers wil request and obtain delays; adýninistrative review will beome an even more burstretch out easily into the legalization period and even bexond. densome resurce issue for the INS than it is now; delays wil Human interest stories wil recive captions such as i INS Tries to Deport Repete Alien, Father of Three:' or "Houston Church Provides Sanctuary for Long Term Alien Seking Legalization," or porttion Order." . "Federal Judge Deides Alien Eligible for Lealiztion Depite De much imagnation to portray a much les desirable scenario. The Commision may run into a serious diffculty in tryng to determine criteria for asing the substantial effectivenes of new en- The bet cas scenario is not a goo one. And it doe not tae forcment measures. One obvious criterion-decrea apprehen- sions-would be unreliable. Apprehensions might go up as a result of ecnomic circumstance in sending countries or as a reult of more effective enforcement. If commisioners canot us a statistical basline. they will have to make a subjective judgment as to 49 what substatia effecivenes meas. "Substatial" in thi sit1tation mea "ample" or "considerable." I would hate to have them quote me beus I have sad on ,several ocions that employer sanctions will not be substatially effecive for several yea be caus it will tae that long to put a univers and seure employment eligbilty system in place. It is poible that even a Commis sion compo of persns who support legaliztion wil have sharp diference of opinion over whether or not the new meaure to curtl ilegal immigation are substatially effective. I have a few other sugestions to make. I believe the 1980 date should be moved to 1981, I believe there should only be one status-that of permanent reident alien-to achieve a comprehen- sive and simple one-time legaliztion proam, Even then, only persions, and who are able to demonstrate that they have lived and worked in the Unite State continuously for at leat 4 yea would be eligble, At leat with a simultaeous approch, we would be in sons who meet the ci..ic reuirements and the quaif exclua much better poition to be our laiie t&k of thoroughgoin en- forcment under a consistent, unambigo'18 immiation policy, We would have nd ourslves once and for all time of a de fact foreig labor reruitment policy made poible by the Texa provi in the Immigation and Nationality Act, which exempts employers from any penalty for hi ilegal alens and which haa ben an invita- tion to exploitation and corrption. Mr. Chairman, if thi Lealiztion Commision is crete, I wi do my bet to help it beme effecive. But this is one Commiaion I do not thik we spek nee or shouldfor yourThan you for fairnes and myto you want. persistence, aski me to mind. . And congratulations openmindedes in deain with this thorny isue of immigation. As Father Hesburgh would say, Go bles. Senator SIMPSN. Thk you very much. Commision ar very importt, at leat to me. You indee are cadid, and your views about the Lealiztion Let me kid of range through the pael with some questions, and agai all of you say provoctive thi for our consideration, 'I ap- . wtions. . want to impo impoible reuirements, iz employment, and vi overstays? preiate the generous comments about leglators. Dr. Teitelbaum, i appreiate your tetimon1 on the subjec of triere legaltion, and.I understad your views and your rer- We want to asure more effecive enforcment, but we do not How would you sugest that we make more speifc the criteri that "substatia" control be achieved ove"l ilegii entry, unauthor- - Dr. '1UM, Well, Mr Chrman, as you may know, I am a demogapher by profesion, and I have an in-built preference for har quantitative data and evidence. However, I must say tht I do not expe that such a judgent could be made on the bais of such quatitative data. The clandesine nature of the phenomenon with which we ar deag, mea that it is esntialy inaccible to objecve quatitative preis meaurement. Morever, I would asiate myslf 50 with Dr, North's comments about the quality of the data in general tive data to be collecte but. as I wil say in a moment. I think. ultimately. what one nee is the wisom and judgment that goe into a decision in any court of law or in any leglative delibera- in this field. quite apart from data on ilegal migration. There are approaches that would allow some form of quantita- tion. One JXible source of data would be the kinds of surveys that Dr. Chiswick and othe.rs have recently ben applying to known em- ployers of ilegal aliens. known beus their names and their firms appear on offcial INS apprehension forms. He may have a comment on this. I have not talked with him about his experience so far. but it might be poible for such a commision to engage in at leat exploratory converstions. if not quantitative surveys with such employers. to detet such a change in trends in their employ- ment practice. compare to the level of enforcement effort being applied. as is the have serious problems of interpretation. They should alwafs be One could also look at apprehension data. though I suspet they ca for any law enforcment data. I would emphasiz that the Commision. if there is indee to be a commision. should do some of its own data collection. and should not depend solely upon other Government agencies for pi:paration of data. Ultimately I thik it I should add. Mr. Chairman. that I doubt if we ca' rely very much on data about ilegal immigation to be collecte during a legaliztion. If the legaliztion is as chaotic as I suspet it wil be. we are deaing with large numbers of peple in a short timeframe. Temporary persnnel. and oftn non..overnment persnnel wil be would be a matter of judicious and fair and objective judgents of the kind. as I sad. that any court of law must make on the basis of apparently convincing and conflcting evidence on both sides of the argment. oftn q~antitative in form. doing the data collection. Given such circumstace. most usrs of eral in the quality of Immigation and Naturaliztion Servce data as a whole, So one would have some resrvations about the quality guantitative data would not give much credence to such data. Al. I hope that no one will tae offens. but there are problems in gen- iSnatothat Indee. that is so. I ag. and certly Dr. re~t. to, . en r SIMPSN. Fuchs has agee that the Lealiztion Commision must be com- ~ of peple. and I believe your phras. Dr. Fuchs. was fair and , h-minded persns, peple of fairnes. to thos who might be selec for the Lealiztion Commision? . you have any thoughts on persns. not names or attribute as about thi. how to mak it work. and there are cateories of perfai and hih-minded. but beus they would give intensl)' dier- Dr. FuCHS. Well. I tried to go througli thi exercis and think gory of persns would be academic typ who know the field of immigation. That would not be a way to go, Not beus they are not sons. I am nervous about each cateory except one. The first cat& ent interpretations to some of the data that they were looki at . and di on the sigifcace of the data. Another typ of persn would be a persn who was a reprentative of dierent interets in the soiety, dierent constituency grups. And I am v.ery nervous about that. I think that appointin 51 grt mistae. I come down to the U.S, Cong itslf as a third persns who vote for' persns to guard the interets of their paricular grup would be a cateory, and I ask myslf, well, if I would appoint a commision of Then, why not have Cong do it in the first place? If they have alrey done it and it was not, in my view, the legaliztion provi. legaltion from out of the U.S. Cong, with a charprsn from outside, a gurdan of soiety typ, such as Prident Ford, someboy like that, to give it a cert stature. sion that did the very goo Simp°n.Mazli bil in; I believe strongly it was some other factors. You pa it Jwice. You held to an unpopular isue which is an extremely difcult one to get and not just a giveaway or benefits proam. acro, to explai why it is in the bet interet of the Unite State, It is extremely dicult to articulate that, but you did it, and you it was challenged in the Hous, even though an elecion was comin up, it stil won by a 3S-vote mar on the amendment to kil legaliztion, You did it before and you ca do it agai, If you want 'to have a commision compo of persns who vote for it from both Hous, that would be the bet way to do it. But, as I say, I do not se the nee for that. l.rsuaded enough of your colleaes over in the Senate, and when Senator SIMPN, Knowig you as I do, Dr, Fuchs, you are paed by that idea. You se no necity for it. Dr. FuCH. I do not. The only plausible explanation for it-there ar two. One is that we canot get the vote for the bil without it, and I do not ag with that, unles there is some new asment that I have not sen, and the send is that it sends the very clea sigal that thi is a one-time progam. And I am for that. I am for a one-time legaliztion, and I thi that the bet way to make sure that we have a one-time proai is to do al of the thi nec sa to bri abut effecive appropriate enforcment, and I se le- galtion, as did the Selec Commion, as esntial to that enforcment effort. And I do not se potponement as necry to aedelay and complicate the objecive. . complih any usfu functon. I se the Commiion as another piec of Government machiery t.hat, in thi ca, wil actually Senator SIMPSN. Th you. citizns and legal alens who ar reident in the Unite State wi incre or decre if thos 10w08k.ed ilegal workers ar includ- Dr. Chwick, do you believe tht the per capita income of thos ed in the tota of thos who ar reident in the Unite State? ilegal aliens, would be lower, The per capita income of the native popultion would be hiher as a consuence of the ilegal immi- Dr. CJICK. The income on a per capita bais, if you included grant. But thi doe not necsariy mea that legaltion would have beneficial effec. Afr a period of time lega1tion would grant the .10W08ki aliens and their dependent famy members acc to the income trafer syte, and that is likely to have the effec of loweri the per capita income afr taes and tranfers for the legal reident population or the native population. Senator SIMPSN. You al stte in your tetimony a propo to deta, even for a goo period of time, ilegal aliens who have ben apprehended whie enteri in violation of the law. 52 Now, that is not a politically popular propo, but other grups tHiwmesyouprivately. paatable? That . o would make that propo politicaly have mentioned that t.yp of detenent, sometimes publicly, some- puzles me as to how that would ever be done. Dr. CHISWlCK. I do not find it so politicaly unpaatable. I have diffculty understadinJ thos who do not rmd sympathy with it. I think we have to explain to peple that we do have a problem, and that if we want to have seurity over our borders, control over who comes in and who doe not, theIi we have to introuce a j)licy that has teth in it. Current policy is a waste of reurc. We ar ex- pending certn reurc at the border, and most of thos re sourc have no deterrnt effect. What I am s~esting is a policy that would have a meaningful impact on reducing the flow of ile- gal aliens and as a reult the number of peple that would be a~ prehended would be much lower that what most might at first glance think. - As was mentioned by David North, the apprehension data show 1,200,00 apprehensions per year. The number of diferent individuals, as note, is probably much les than that, and that is with no ecnomics 0 crime show penalties have a very sigificat eilec,in penalties if iou ar apprehended at the border. All studies in the reucing violations. Where you do not have penalties, even if you have apprehensions, you have a great deal more violation of the law. What I am suggesting is that a number of peple that would in fact have to be detaned is probably not all that large once it be comes reogiz that if )'ou are apprehended you will be detaed. If you are apprehended a seond time, your detention will be longer. If you are apprehended in the interior, the detention will be even longer. I am not taking about long period of detention. Since most of the ilegal aliens who cros the border are interete. in senal or shortterm emp'loyment, even a detention of 2 or 3 months could have a sigifcat deterrnt effec. Thes are not hardened criminal, so we would not nee a mAJum seurity facilty, and that is whl' I us the term Udetention," review that question and ask your repons, Mr, North, with your bakgund as a politica scientist ana a numbers man, shal we say, on the subject of how do we make more speifc the criteria that substatial control ca be achieved over ilegal entry and vi overstayl, any thoughts on that? Wht ar your thoughts? Senator SIMPSN. Let us bounce over to David North. I miht . the decision is made son by a legaliztion commiaion. I worr about what happens in the labor market duri that interi time, Mr. NORTH. I have two sets of problems, one of which is the period in between the pae of the law and the decision, even if beaus there 18 a proviion, as I red the bil, that continued employment of an ilegal alien is not contrary to the law, but that a new hire would be, and that woulll sem to put the currnt employ- worker, llstick with me and you will be saer than if you move on and work for another employer," he could say. I find that an anomaly, and if it is going to go on for a couple of years, I rmd that troublesme. As to the decision er of an ilegal alien in a remarkale poition, via-vi thBt mak, I would 63 suggest that if, in fac, the Congr doe, despite the advice of this panel, go ahead with this Commision, that some thought be made as to creating a series of events that could be rerded so that you could get some handle on whether or not something had in fact ben done in a substantial way to enforce employer sactions. It is a lot easier to create a set of grund rules, events, forms,

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