National Federation of the Blind et al v. Target Corporation

Filing 49

ERRATA re 42 Reply to Opposition to Motion for Preliminary Injunction by National Federation of the Blind, Bruce Frank Sexton, the National Federation of the Blind of California, National Federation of the Blind, Bruce Frank Sexton, the National Federation of the Blind of California. (Attachments: # 1 # 2 # 3 # 4 # 5)(Paradis, Laurence) (Filed on 7/14/2006)

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 1 of 16

Dockets.Justia.com

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 2 of 16

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION --oOo--

NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND, the NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND OF CALIFORNIA, on behalf of their members, and Bruce F. Sexton, on behalf of himself and all others similarly situated, Plaintiffs, vs. TARGET CORPORATION, Defendant. ____________________________________/ No. C06-01802 MHP

Videotaped Deposition of CHRISTOPHER POLK Monday, June 19, 2006

Reported by: SHARON CABELLO, RPR CSR No. 3080 Job No. 2758CC

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 3 of 16

03:06:12 1

Okay. Mr. Polk, can you state and spell your

03:06:17 2 name for the record. 03:06:17 3 A. Christopher, C-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r, P-o-l-k,

03:06:24 4 Polk is my last name. 03:06:25 5 Q. 03:06:27 6 A. 03:06:28 7 Q. 03:06:30 8 A. What is your age? 32. And what is your current address? 2320 P Street, Apartment 309, Sacramento,

03:06:36 9 California 95816. 03:06:38 10 Q. 03:06:40 11 A. 03:06:42 12 Q. 03:06:45 13 A. 03:06:46 14 Q. 03:06:48 15 A. 03:06:50 16 Q. How long have you lived at that address? Two and a half years. All right. Mr. Polk, are you blind? Yes, I am. And how long have you been blind? Since birth. Mr. Polk, beginning with your high school

03:06:54 17 education, would you mind describing your educational 03:06:56 18 background? 03:06:58 19 A. I finished high school in 1992, I then

03:07:04 20 attended the Louisiana Center For the Blind in Ruston, 03:07:11 21 Louisiana. And then I went on to LSU to obtain my 03:07:15 22 associates degree in Information Technology. 03:07:18 23 Q. 03:07:20 24 A. 03:07:23 25 Q. Okay. And when did you receive that degree? 1995. Since then have you had any other -- do you 8

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 4 of 16

03:07:27 1 have any other degree? 03:07:28 2 A. I have certificates and A Plus certification

03:07:37 3 in Network Plus. I have the JAWS Trainer 03:07:41 4 Certification, and the Assistant Technology Trainer 03:07:44 5 Certification from Lion's World in Little Rock, 03:07:48 6 Arkansas. 03:07:49 7 Q. Other than what you just described, have you

03:07:52 8 any other formal educational training? 03:07:53 9 A. 03:07:54 10 Q. No, I have not. With respect to adaptive software you just

03:07:58 11 testified that you've had certification in JAWS 03:08:01 12 training. Can you describe that? 03:08:02 13 A. It was a course basically where you went to

03:08:08 14 Freedom Scientific for a week and learned the 03:08:11 15 fundamentals of teaching JAWS. I was mainly there to 03:08:15 16 get the certification, to get the piece of paper saying 03:08:20 17 that I was certified so I could continue to teach in 03:08:24 18 the State of Louisiana. 03:08:25 19 Q. 03:08:29 20 A. Okay. And what is Freedom Scientific? Freedom Scientific is the company that makes

03:08:32 21 JAWS for Windows screen reading software that I use. 03:08:35 22 Q. 03:08:37 23 A. 03:08:38 24 Q. Okay. And how long was this training program? Five days. Okay. Is there any other training that you've

03:08:43 25 had with respect to adaptive software? 9

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 5 of 16

03:08:48 1 A. 03:08:49 2 Q.

No, there is not. Okay. Have you had training in computers or

03:08:53 3 software generally? 03:08:55 4 A. 03:08:56 5 Q. 03:08:57 6 A. Yes. And what is that training? I took classes at New Horizons in Louisiana to

03:09:04 7 obtain my A Plus and my Network Plus certifications. 03:09:09 8 Q. 03:09:12 9 are? 03:09:13 10 A. The A Plus certification basically says that I And can you describe what those certifications

03:09:18 11 can effectively physically build a computer, configure 03:09:22 12 all the hardware peripherals, install the software, and 03:09:25 13 maintain it in an office environment. 03:09:28 14 The Network Plus basically states that I am

03:09:32 15 competent in the different types of topology of 03:09:36 16 different networks and I am able to effectively 03:09:39 17 administer security. 03:09:41 18 Q. Okay. Other than that training which you just

03:09:44 19 described, have you had any other formal training in 03:09:49 20 software? 03:09:50 21 A. 03:09:51 22 Q. No, I have not. Okay. Have you had any training on Web

03:09:54 23 design? 03:09:55 24 A. 03:09:56 25 Q. No, I have not. Or programming, Web programming? 10

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 6 of 16

03:09:58 1 A. 03:09:59 2 Q.

No, I have not. Okay. Can you please describe your job

03:10:04 3 history beginning with your current job and going 03:10:06 4 backwards? 03:10:07 5 A. Right now I am the systems administrator for

03:10:12 6 HumanWear. I am responsible for the entire U.S.'s 03:10:19 7 network. Before that I was involved in the technical 03:10:24 8 support area the -- of HumanWear with the products. 03:10:29 9 Next in line is the Society For the Blind

03:10:33 10 where I was an instructor of JAWS doing office 03:10:37 11 applications, JAWS the Internet. I was also 03:10:42 12 responsible for building computers and maintaining a 03:10:45 13 senior outreach programs computer site that they had. 03:10:51 14 Before then I was a contract employee for

03:10:54 15 Louisiana Rehab for a company called Touch Technical, 03:10:58 16 Incorporated, that is no longer in business. I went to 03:11:01 17 the clients of rehab's homes and did training and 03:11:07 18 computer installation. 03:11:08 19 And before that I was contracted with

03:11:11 20 Lighthouse for the Blind out of Washington, D.C., who 03:11:14 21 had a contract with the IRS to go around and train the 03:11:18 22 IRS's blind employees on how to use JAWS and the IRS's 03:11:25 23 -- well, I will just say their databases, because I 03:11:28 24 shouldn't talk about that, but their databases that 03:11:32 25 they use internally. 11

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 7 of 16

03:11:34 1 Q. 03:11:37 2 A. 03:11:38 3 Q.

Are those all the jobs that you have held? Yes, they are. Okay. And in your current position how long

03:11:48 4 have you held that? 03:11:49 5 A. I have been the Systems Admin for roughly nine

03:11:58 6 months now. 03:12:01 7 Q. Okay. And does your current job require

03:12:05 8 expertise in computers? 03:12:06 9 A. 03:12:07 10 Q. Yes. Does your job currently require expertise in

03:12:12 11 adaptive software? 03:12:13 12 A. 03:12:14 13 Q. Yes. Okay. Did your previous jobs require

03:12:16 14 expertise in computer use? 03:12:18 15 A. 03:12:19 16 Q. Yes. Did your previous jobs require expertise in

03:12:22 17 JAWS? 03:12:22 18 A. 03:12:23 19 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, you said that you've instructed

03:12:43 20 people on how to use JAWS; is that correct? 03:12:45 21 A. 03:12:46 22 Q. That's correct. How many people would you say you taught how

03:12:49 23 to use JAWS? 03:12:50 24 A. 03:12:57 25 Q. 50. 50 people. And is the kind of training you 12

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 8 of 16

03:13:01 1 provided introductory, or basic training, advanced 03:13:05 2 training? 03:13:06 3 A. I have provided training from how to turn the

03:13:08 4 computer on, to how to create a Power Point 03:13:11 5 presentation. 03:13:12 6 Q. Okay. Have you ever had deposition taken

03:13:31 7 before? 03:13:31 8 A. 03:13:32 9 Q. No, I have not. Have you ever been involved in a lawsuit

03:13:34 10 before? 03:13:34 11 A. 03:13:35 12 Q. No, I have not. Have you ever submitted a sworn statement such

03:13:40 13 as that which you submitted in this case? 03:13:42 14 A. 03:13:42 15 Q. 03:13:50 16 A. 03:13:51 17 Q. 03:13:53 18 A. 03:13:59 19 Q. 03:14:03 20 A. 03:14:04 21 Q. 03:14:06 22 A. 03:14:10 23 Q. 03:14:14 24 A. No, I have not. Do you use the Internet, Mr. Polk? Yes, I do. How long have you used the Internet for? I have used the Internet since '98. How often do you use the Internet? Every day. How long every day would you say on average? 3 1/2 to 4 hours a day. Okay. And what do you use the Internet for? I use the Internet for research pertaining to

03:14:19 25 my current job, hosting live meeting sessions to help 13

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 9 of 16

04:26:08 1 A.

I definitely think that I have really good

04:26:16 2 skills, but I know that there is people that have more, 04:26:18 3 and people that have less than I. 04:26:22 4 Q. You train people on how to use the Web,

04:26:25 5 correct? 04:26:25 6 A. 04:26:26 7 Q. Yes, I did. So would you say you are more savvy than the

04:26:34 8 people that you train? 04:26:37 9 A. 04:26:46 10 Q. 04:26:50 11 04:26:51 12 04:26:56 13 Q. In most cases, yes. Okay. Are you an expert in that area? MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague. THE WITNESS: How would you define "expert"? MR. BASRAWI: How would you define expert as

04:27:01 14 you understand the term? 04:27:03 15 A. I don't know whether I would consider myself

04:27:08 16 a, quote, "expert" or not. I definitely have more 04:27:15 17 skills than a lot of people, and less skills than some 04:27:19 18 people. I have never put myself on a scale to rate my 04:27:24 19 savviness or expertise on the Web. 04:27:28 20 Q. Okay. You have certification in screen reader

04:27:32 21 use and in various computer skills, correct? 04:27:39 22 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, mischaracterizes

04:27:41 23 testimony. 04:27:41 24 04:27:44 25 Q. THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. MR. BASRAWI: Okay. Going back to a Web site 49

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 10 of 16

04:48:45 1 04:48:50 2 Q.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. MR. BASRAWI: And what was -- do you recall

04:48:55 3 what those were? 04:48:59 4 04:49:00 5 04:49:04 6 Q. MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague. THE WITNESS: What do you mean what they were? MR. BASRAWI: What those buttons that you were

04:49:06 7 unable to use were, on which Web sites? 04:49:12 8 04:49:14 9 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague. THE WITNESS: I see buttons every day that I

04:49:18 10 can't click that don't describe what they do. 04:49:21 11 Q. MR. BASRAWI: Okay. Can you tell me about

04:49:24 12 your experience with the Proceed to Checkout button on 04:49:26 13 target.com? 04:49:33 14 04:49:39 15 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, lacks foundation. THE WITNESS: One of the checkout buttons at

04:49:41 16 the top of the page did actually click and bring me to 04:49:43 17 a new page. The one at the bottom did not. 04:49:46 18 Q. MR. BASRAWI: Okay. Let's talk about the one

04:49:49 19 at the top of the page. When you said it did take you 04:49:54 20 to the next page, another page, what steps did you take 04:49:58 21 in order to activate the button to make it to go to 04:50:01 22 another page? 04:50:02 23 A. 04:50:04 24 Q. 04:50:05 25 A. I pressed Enter on it. You pressed Enter on it? I did. 60

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 11 of 16

04:50:06 1 Q. 04:50:08 2 A. 04:50:09 3 Q.

Were you in forms mode at the time? No, I was not. Okay. And the one at the bottom of the page,

04:50:11 4 what steps did you attempt to use to activate that 04:50:15 5 button? 04:50:16 6 A. I tried Enter on it, space bar, forms mode,

04:50:23 7 and routing my JAWS to the PC and clicking. 04:50:27 8 Q. 04:50:30 9 A. 04:50:32 10 Q. 04:51:09 11 A. And none of these techniques worked? No, I could not get that button to activate. Okay. Was that frustrating to you at all? It was more of a curiosity type of thing to

04:51:13 12 me. I am of the mind set that I want to know why it 04:51:19 13 doesn't work. 04:51:19 14 So frustrating, I was not really frustrated,

04:51:23 15 but I had my interest piqued about why. 04:51:25 16 Q. Do you think that's because your field is

04:51:29 17 computers that piqued your curiosity? 04:51:35 18 A. I don't know how I would feel if my field was

04:51:37 19 not computer, so I don't know how to answer that. 04:51:39 20 Q. Okay. If you were trying to buy something

04:51:46 21 would it frustrate you if you could not activate the 04:51:50 22 checkout button? 04:51:51 23 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, incomplete

04:51:53 24 hypothetical. 04:51:53 25 THE WITNESS: Maybe a little, yes. 61

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 12 of 16

05:30:46 1 blind person would encounter a lot of problems; is that 05:30:51 2 correct? 05:30:51 3 05:30:53 4 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, lacks foundation. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, can you read -- I'm

05:31:00 5 really having a hard time focusing here. 05:31:03 6 7 8 9 05:31:18 10 05:31:18 11 05:31:19 12 05:31:21 13 Q. 05:31:21 14 A. 05:31:21 15 Q. 05:31:22 16 A. MR. BASRAWI: I apologize. (Record read by the reporter as follows: "Q. You told me on Friday that a blind person would encounter a lot of problems; is that correct?") MR. BASRAWI: Let me rephrase, I apologize. THE WITNESS: I can answer. MR. BASRAWI: You can? Yes. Go ahead. I think that a beginning -- beginner JAWS user

05:31:29 17 would have problems with all the links that are on the 05:31:32 18 front page that aren't labeled with the ALT text. I 05:31:35 19 think that would give them problems, yes. 05:31:37 20 Q. 05:31:50 21 A. 05:31:51 22 Q. 05:31:54 23 A. 05:31:55 24 Q. How about the Proceed to Checkout button? Yes. How about the lack of headings navigation? No. How about the lack of a skip navigation

05:32:00 25 feature? 77

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 13 of 16

05:46:05 1

THE WITNESS: Can you explain that a little

05:46:10 2 better? I'm sorry. 05:46:12 3 Q. MR. BASRAWI: You have been testifying that

05:46:13 4 all you can testify to is whether a JAWS user or a 05:46:18 5 screen reader user has the requisite advanced training, 05:46:28 6 such as that which you have, and what that person would 05:46:32 7 be able to do; is that correct? 05:46:35 8 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague,

05:46:37 9 mischaracterizes the evidence. 05:46:38 10 THE WITNESS: I can't really say that because

05:46:45 11 there could be someone less skilled than I am at JAWS 05:46:50 12 that can learn to figure things out, also. 05:46:54 13 Q. MR. BASRAWI: So somebody would have to

05:46:57 14 problem solve, troubleshoot in order to overcome 05:46:59 15 barriers on target.com? 05:47:02 16 A. 05:47:02 17 Yes. MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, calls for

05:47:03 18 speculation, incomplete hypothetical. 05:47:04 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, as in with any Web site or

05:47:10 20 any application. 05:47:10 21 Q. MR. BASRAWI: Do you find troubleshooting

05:47:13 22 challenging? 05:47:15 23 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague, lacks

05:47:17 24 foundation. 05:47:17 25 THE WITNESS: Can you explain a little better, 87

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 14 of 16

05:47:20 1 please? 05:47:21 2 Q. MR. BASRAWI: I mean, do you enjoy

05:47:23 3 troubleshooting? 05:47:26 4 A. 05:47:27 5 Q. Yes. Okay. Do you find troubleshooting to be a

05:47:30 6 challenge? 05:47:33 7 05:47:34 8 MR. PLUNKETT: Same objections. THE WITNESS: Do you mean to get over a

05:47:37 9 challenge, or do I find it a challenge for myself to 05:47:40 10 troubleshoot? 05:47:41 11 Q. MR. BASRAWI: I'm not even sure I understand

05:47:46 12 the distinction there. 05:47:49 13 05:47:58 14 05:47:58 15 05:47:59 16 Q. Do you find troubleshooting to be challenging? MR. PLUNKETT: Same objections. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. BASRAWI: Okay. And do you enjoy being

05:48:02 17 challenged? 05:48:05 18 A. 05:48:05 19 Q. Yes. Okay. So you don't know how anybody else with

05:48:16 20 any other level of skill would be -- would react to 05:48:20 21 target.com? 05:48:23 22 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, calls for

05:48:24 23 speculation. 05:48:24 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to predict what

05:48:32 25 one person's experience would be over mine, no. 88

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 15 of 16

05:50:09 1 Q.

MR. BASRAWI: Mr. Polk, did you tell me on

05:50:10 2 Friday that target.com is not as fully and equally 05:50:16 3 accessible to a blind user as it is to a sighted user? 05:50:25 4 A. 05:50:28 5 Q. Yes. Which I stated earlier today, as well. So you believe that target.com is not as fully

05:50:32 6 and equally accessible to a blind user as it is to a 05:50:36 7 sighted user? 05:50:37 8 05:50:45 9 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, asked and answered. THE WITNESS: There are aspects on target.com

05:50:47 10 that are not accessible. 05:50:50 11 Q. MR. BASRAWI: Again, I don't believe that

05:50:51 12 that's answering my question. 05:50:53 13 A. 05:50:54 14 Q. I have answered three times. You have responded, yes, but you have not

05:50:57 15 answered my question. 05:50:58 16 MR. PLUNKETT: Counsel, that's not a fair

05:51:01 17 characterization. You were absolutely repeating 05:51:04 18 yourself over and over again when you know that the 05:51:07 19 witness is tired. 05:51:08 20 MR. BASRAWI: I am entitled to ask a question

05:51:11 21 and get an answer to my question. 05:51:15 22 Q. My question is is target.com in your opinion

05:51:21 23 fully and equally accessible to the blind as it is to a 05:51:26 24 sighted user? 05:51:28 25 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, asked and answered. 89

Case 3:06-cv-01802-MHP

Document 49-3

Filed 07/14/2006

Page 16 of 16

06:11:02 1 Q.

MR. BASRAWI: All right. As you sit here

06:11:13 2 today do you believe that the Web site needs work? 06:11:15 3 A. 06:11:28 4 Q. 06:11:30 5 A. Yes. What do you mean by that? I mean -- I answered your question, I mean,

06:11:33 6 yes, I believe it needs work. 06:11:34 7 Q. 06:11:36 8 A. Well, what work does it need? The links on the front of the page could be

06:11:39 9 labeled. They should fix the checkout button at the 06:11:46 10 bottom of the page. 06:11:48 11 Q. 06:11:59 12 A. Anything else? I guess I don't understand. Do you mean -- I

06:12:07 13 don't know, never mind. 06:12:07 14 Q. My question is do you -- my next question is

06:12:13 15 do you believe that the Web site needs work to improve 06:12:17 16 accessibility? 06:12:20 17 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, vague, lacks

06:12:24 18 foundation. 06:12:24 19 THE WITNESS: I believe that it could use work

06:12:34 20 to clarify some of the vague points on the site. 06:12:38 21 Q. MR. BASRAWI: And would that clarification

06:12:41 22 provide better access to people who are blind? 06:12:45 23 MR. PLUNKETT: Objection, calls for

06:12:51 24 speculation, vague. 06:12:52 25 THE WITNESS: I could answer the questions a 94