Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1360

Unredacted Declaration of Bill Trac in Support of Samsung's Reply in Support of Motion for Summary Judgment by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, re (Dkt. Nos. 1068, 1069) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1 to the Trac Declaration, # 2 Exhibit 2 to the Trac Declaration, # 3 Exhibit 8 to the Trac Declaration, # 4 Exhibit 9 to the Trac Declaration, # 5 Exhibit 10 to the Trac Declaration, # 6 Exhibit 14 to the Trac Declaration, # 7 Exhibit 15 to the Trac Declaration, # 8 Exhibit 16 to the Trac Declaration, # 9 Exhibit 17 to the Trac Declaration, # 10 Exhibit 18 to the Trac Declaration, # 11 Exhibit 19 to the Trac Declaration, # 12 Exhibit 20 to the Trac Declaration, # 13 Exhibit 21 to the Trac Declaration, # 14 Exhibit 22 to the Trac Declaration, # 15 Exhibit 23 to the Trac Declaration, # 16 Exhibit 24 to the Trac Declaration, # 17 Exhibit 25 to the Trac Declaration, # 18 Exhibit 26 to the Trac Declaration, # 19 Exhibit 27 to the Trac Declaration, # 20 Exhibit 28 to the Trac Declaration)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/26/2012) Modified text on 7/27/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT 27
FILED UNDER SEAL

Page 1432
BEFORE THE
UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
___________________________
In the Matter of:
) Investigation No.
CERTAIN MOBILE DEVICES ) 337-TA-750
AND RELATED SOFTWARE
)
___________________________
Hearing Room A

United States
International Trade Commission
500 E Street, Southwest
Washington, D.C.
Friday, September 30, 2011

VOLUME V
The parties met, pursuant to the notice of the
Judge, at 9:00 a.m.
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE THEODORE R. ESSEX

Page 1434

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APPEARANCES (Continued):
For Respondent Motorola Mobility, Inc.:
CHARLES K. VERHOEVEN, ESQ.
DAVID EISEMAN, ESQ.
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
50 California Street, 22nd Floor
San Francisco, CA 94111
EDWARD J. DeFRANCO, ESQ.
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
51 Madison Avenue, 22nd FLoor
New York, New York 10010
DAVID A. NELSON, ESQ.
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
500 West Madison Street, Suite 2450
Chicago, Illinois 60661

Page 1433

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APPEARANCES:
For Complainant Apple:
MARK G. DAVIS, ESQ.
BRIAN E. FERGUSON, ESQ.
ROBERT T. VLASIS, ESQ.
EDWARD S. JOU, ESQ.
CHRISTOPHER T. MARANDO, ESQ.
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
1300 Eye Street, N.W., Suite 900
Washington, D.C. 20005
JILL J. HO, ESQ.
BRIAN C. CHANG, ESQ.
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
201 Redwood Shores Parkway
Redwood Shores, CA 94065
MATTHEW D. POWERS, ESQ.
STEVEN S. CHERENSKY, ESQ.
PAUL T. EHRLICH, ESQ.
ROBERT L. GERRITY, ESQ.
Tensegrity Law Group LLP
201 Redwood Shore Parkway
Redwood Shores, CA 94065

Page 1435

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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
For ITC Staff:
LISA KATTAN, ESQ.
ANNE GOALWIN, ESQ.
U.S. International Trade Commission
500 E Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20436
Attorney-Advisor:
GREGORY MOLDAFSKY, ESQ.
Attorney-Advisor
Office of Administrative Law Judges
U.S. International Trade Commission
500 E Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20436
*** Index appears at end of transcript ***

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Page 1464

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Q.

Would you read it back?
THE REPORTER: "Question: Figure 2
and the associated text in SmartSkin, would you
say that that discloses a mutual capacitance
touch system that is configured to recognize
the relative positioning of two different
objects?"
THE WITNESS: I have no disagreement
with that statement with respect to figure 2.
BY MR. DeFRANCO:
Q. Just for the record, I don't want to
belabor it. I want to move through some of the
figures in the SmartSkin reference that depict
that visually.
Let's turn to the next slide. Figure
7, for example, shows a person using two hands
to move objects, to move around the SmartSkin
surface and move two images.
Do you see that?
A. Figure 7, if we look at the left, it
shows two halves of this image apart from each
other. And then the right-hand side of figure
7 shows that they have been pushed together.
So that's what it calls concatenating two
objects.

Page 1466

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Page 1465

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The object is actually, as you can see
j
y, y
from figure 7, p j
g
, projected from a camera above.
And that's why you actually see the projection
yy
on the person's fingers.
p
g
Q. Okay. And then if we move on to
Q
y
figure 10, figure 10 shows a hand on the screen
g
, g
and then it shows a two-fingered gesture. Do
you see that, sir?
,
A. On the top row of figure 10, yes, I
agree.
g
Q. And that two finger gesture is
Q
g g
reminiscent, wouldn't you say, of the pinch to
,
y
y,
zoom sort of gesture, just generally?
g
,j g
y
A. No. I mean, there is certainly a
,
y
starting point for two fingers you could use to
gp
g y
p
proceed into a p
pinch to zoom. This is a static
image. It doesn't actually show the pinching.
g
y
p
g
Q. Okay. And then the figure 13, do you
Q
y
g
,
y
see that it states there two-finger gestures
g g
can be used to pick up objects? Do you see
that, sir?
,
A. Yes, I see that.
,
Q. And would you say that these figures
Q
y
y
g
that are shown here are generalized examples of
g
multi-touch gestures in the SmartSkin
g

reference?
A. These are certainly some of the
gestures that are discussed within the
SmartSkin reference and, indeed, I do agree
that these do involve multiple touches.
p
Q. Let's talk a bit about transparency
Q
p
y
and y
your opinion about what is or what is not
p
disclosed in the SmartSkin reference with
respect to transparency. Okay?
p
p
A. I understand.
Q. Let's go to slide RX-28.006. Again,
Q
g
g
sir, in the discussion in this hearing about
,
g
SmartSkin, and this p
,
particular p g p about
paragraph
transparency, and obviously y think there is
p
y,
y you
some shortcomings as to the scope of the
g
p
disclosure of this particular paragraph; is
that fair enough?
g
A. It is my opinion that there are
y p
significant deficiencies with respect to this
g
p
p g p
paragraph. This p g p is a discussion -paragraph
it falls within the section on future work.
Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you
Q
y,
y
off. We're g g to g through y
going go
g your issues. I
just wanted to set that premise, okay?
A. I understand.
Page 1467

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Q. But my point is that hopefully there
Q
yp
p
y
are some things we can agree on. And I just
g
g
want to establish that first, okay?
,
y
A. I don't know if we will or not.
Q. Okay. Well, let's give it a shot,
Q
y
,
g
,
okay? So in this p g p , can we at least
y
paragraph,
agree that it is disclosing the use of a
g
g
transparent sensor such as can be manufactured
p
or etched using ITO?
g
A. In fact, this section discloses the
,
p
possibility in future work of using transparent
y
g
p
electrodes in a SmartSkin sensor that could be
obtained by using ITO.
y
g
Q. Okay. You are referring to, I
Q
y
g ,
believe, the beginning of the section. And I
,
g
g
didn't mean to not point that out to you, but
p
y ,
y
you said that before at the hearing, that the
g,
future, I believe the future -- let's put that
up.
If y p the entire -- g back to
you put
go
the entire page, Ryan. I want to point out
p g , y
p
what the Doctor is referring to. Conclusion
g
and directions for future work.
I think that's what you are referring
y
to, sir, that the section that talks about
, ,

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Page 1468

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transparent electrodes, electrodes that could
p
,
be made out of transparent materials such as
p
ITO, that falls in a section of the SmartSkin
,
reference that's entitled conclusions and
directions for future work. Do y see that?
you
A. It does. It is not in a section
that's related to what they have done. In
y
fact, specifically it will not work with figure
2.
Q. Now, sir, you don't dispute, though,
Q
, ,y
p ,
g ,
again, figure 2 discloses a mutual capacitance
g ,
device?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. So I just want to make sure,
Q
y
j
,
though, when you are referring to future work,
g ,
y
g
,
what that says in that paragraph about ITO, you
y
p g p
,y
don't dispute that that's an accurate statement
p
as to what the article reference had said at
the time?
A. I mean, if you are asking me, do the
, y
g
,
words indium tin oxide appear in that section,
pp
the answer is yes. However, it is my opinion
y
,
y p
for detailed technical reasons that that will
not -- that firstly, that is in a future work
y,
section and that will not work with respect to

Page 1470

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Page 1469

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the mutual capacitance system of figure 2.
p
y
g
Q. Okay. But let's go back. Can you
Q
y
g
blow up that particular paragraph?
p
p
p g p
Now, by the way, sir, you're aware
, y
y, , y
that a person can apply for a patent without
p
pp y
p
actually having made a prototype that's covered
y
g
p
yp
by each and every claim of a particular patent;
y
is that true?
A. With respect to prototyping,
absolutely.
y
Q. Right. For example, as we have seen
Q
g
p ,
during this hearing by way of example, p
g
g y y
p , patents
often have many dependent claims, right?
A. Yes.
Q. For example, dependent claims can
Q
p , p
branch off an independent claim and lay out
p
y
individually different materials that can be
y
used for a particular aspect of an invention.
p
Is that fair?
A. Yes, that's certainly possible.
,
yp
Q. And one of the reasons for that is the
Q
inventors want to make sure that they don't
y
have a claim that's so broad that it is going
g
to be invalidated by the prior art, so if it
y
p
,
comes time for an assertion, they can point to
,
y
p

one that's a bit more specific and would
p
hopefully avoid the p
p
y
prior art, while at the
,
same time capturing the accused device. Fair
enough?
A. I can't comment on the inventor's
intent for doing what they do, but that would
g
y ,
certainly be an outcome of having narrower
y
g
claims being dependent on broader independent
claims.
Q. And this patent, in particular, the
Q
p
, p
,
'607 p
patent, before we g back to SmartSkin,
,
get
it discusses ITO, doesn't it?
,
A. Yes, there are claims that mention
,
ITO. And within the spec, it talks about ITO.
p ,
Q. Well, I don't think there are claims
Q
,
that specifically -- well, let me go back.
p
y
,
g
It discusses ITO in the specification
p
in a number of places, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. But it doesn't specifically reference
Q
p
y
any other type of transparent material, does
y
it?
A. I'd have to check. Give me one
second. And by transparent, you mean
y
p
,y
transparent conductor, not glass or plastic or
Page 1471

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glass member?
Q. Yes, yes.
Q
,y
A. I believe that's right. I believe
g
that says with a transparent conducting medium
y
p
g
such as indium tin oxide, but it doesn't offer
,
other alternatives that do exist, but the only
,
y
one it specifically calls out as an example is
ITO.
Q. Right. Were there other alternatives
Q
g
at that time that existed to use as a
transparent conductive material?
A. Yes.
Q. In the devices we're talking about?
Q
A. Yes.
Q. None of those are disclosed?
Q
A. Explicitly disclosed?
p
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Beyond the statement -- beyond the
y
y
statement saying such as, yes, I agree. The
y g
,y , g
only specific disclosure of a particular
y p
material is ITO.
Q. And in your deposition, if I have it
Q
y
p
,
right, y talked about characteristics of ITO
g , you
specifically that are -- that one needs to
p
y
consider in determining exactly how to
g
y

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implement or use ITO in a mutual capacitance
p
p
device that's intended to have multi-touch
capabilities.
Do you recall that, sir?
y
,
A. I recall discussing the properties of
g
p p
ITO in the context of how it would behave in
various systems.
y
Q. Right. Sure. Right? I mean, things
Q
g
g
,
like thickness, the width, the shape are
,
,
p
considerations, right, for how ITO is going to
, g ,
g g
behave in a particular implementation? Isn't
that fair?
A. Generically, yes.
y, y
Q. Resistance, you referred to
Q
,y
resistance. The resistance of the material
itself impacts other characteristics that may
p
be relevant to the use in the particular
device, sir. Is that correct?
,
A. That's absolutely true, because the
y
,
resistivity of ITO is quite poor.
y
q
p
Q. Right. And certain characteristics or
Q
g
features that are relevant to its transparency
p
are a function of resistivity; isn't that true,
sir?
A. If you are asking me, is there a

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Page 1473

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tradeoff between transparency and resistance,
p
y
the answer is yes. If you are asking me if
y
y
g
there is a tradeoff between transparency and
p
resistivity, that's not necessarily true.
y,
y
Q. Okay. Yes, between resistance, there
Q
y
,
is a tradeoff with transparency; is that
correct, sir?
,
A. Yes, in the specific case where you
,
p
y
reduce resistance by increasing thickness, you
y
degrade transparency.
g
p
y
Q. And some of the other characteristics
Q
are capacitance, y said, correct?
p
, you
,
A. ITO on its own is a conductor. When
we talk about capacitance of it, it would be
p
,
when configured in some other system.
g
y
Q. But control, in terms of -- I am
Q
,
simply asking in terms of the considerations
py
g
that go into designing a transparent
g
g g
p
multi-touch system using ITO, you list the
y
g
,y
characteristics, one is control of the
,
capacitance of the particular device at issue;
p
is that fair?
A. Of the various capacitances of the
p
device at issue, yes, that would be true.
Q. Yes.
Q

A.
Q.

There is not a single capacitance.
g
p
I apologize for speaking over you.
p g
p
g
y
The capacitance of the ITO that's
p
being used is part of that, isn't it?
g
p
,
A. Capacitance is measured between -- is
p
a measure of -- capacitance is, in fact,
p
,
,
defined as DQ/DV, it is how much charge changes
Q
,
g
for a g
given change in voltage. So there has to
be a reference.
You can't talk about the capacitance
of ITO on its own.
Q. Yes, no, absolutely. But in
Q
, ,
y
determining DQ over DV, you take into
g Q
,y
consideration the capacitance effect of the
ITO?
A. If y are talking about a capacitor
you
g
p
which includes one or more terminals made of
ITO, then in the calculation y would take
,
you
into account the area, among other things, of
the ITO.
Q. And in designing a particular product,
Q
g g p
p
y
you are certainly going to take into account
yg g
the area of the ITO and how it impacts
p
capacitance of the device overall.
p
A. Yes, I agree with that.
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Q. Dispersion, you also mentioned
Q
p
,y
dispersion as another characteristic. Can you
p
tell us what dispersion is?
p
A. Certainly. Dispersion is the change
y
p
g
in capacitance as a function of frequency and
p
q
more specifically it is the change in
p
y
g
dielectric constant as a function of frequency.
q
y
Q. Okay. Another characteristic, another
Q
y
,
variable that needs to be taken into account
when designing a mutual capacitance transparent
g g
p
p
device that has multi-touch capability; is that
fair?
A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the
question.
MR. DeFRANCO: Would you read it back?
y
THE REPORTER: "Question: Okay.
Q
y
Another characteristic, another variable that
,
needs to be taken into account when designing a
g g
mutual capacitance transparent device that has
p
p
multi-touch capability; is that fair?"
p
y;
THE WITNESS: Again, I still don't
understand the question.
q
BY MR. DeFRANCO:
Q. I'm sorry, I was talking about
Q
y,
g
dispersion. Dispersion is another one of those
p
p

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characteristics that needs to be taken into
account in designing a mutual capacitance
g g
p
multi-touch device that is transparent. Fair
enough?
A. Yes, I agree with that.
, g
Q. Those three characteristics relate or
Q
are all factors in the implementation of ITO -p
using ITO; is that fair enough?
g
;
A. In such a device?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. With respect to such a device, you do
p
,y
consider the characteristics we talked about.
Dispersion is actually more related to the
p
y
dielectric, not to the ITO itself.
,
Q. But it is a factor?
Q
A. In terms of doing the design of a
g
g
mutual capacitance system, you would consider
p
dispersion.
p
Q. Yes. And the characteristics that we
Q
discussed, to the extent they relate or are
,
y
impacted by ITO, the same would be true of
p
y
,
other materials that could be used as a
conductor in a given device?
g
A. If you are asking me, do the
y
g
,
properties of the conductor affect the ability

Page 1478

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Page 1477

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to implement a system, the answer is
p
absolutely, yes.
y, y
Q. Well, you said that -- we agreed, at
Q
,y
g
,
least, that ITO is discussed or disclosed in
,
the '607 patent, right?
p
A. Yes.
Q. And you agreed that there were no
Q
y
g
other examples of a transparent conductive
p
p
material specifically disclosed. Is that
correct?
A. The only specific example was ITO,
yes.
Q. And I think you said there are other
Q
y
examples in the field.
A. You mean, am I aware of other
materials?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Yes. In fact, I work on them. That's
,
how I know about them.
Q. And as of your deposition -- by the
Q
y
p
y
way, you have never yourself designed or made a
y, y
y
g
mutual capacitance multi-touch device using
p
ITO; is that correct?
;
A. I have never made one.
Q. You have never done that yourself?
Q
y

A. I have never made one myself. That's
absolutely true.
y
Q. My question, going back, simply is the
Q
yq
,g g
,
py
characteristics that you identified for us,
y
,
resistance, capacitance, dispersion, relating
, p
, p
,
g
to the material in a multi-touch sensor, those
,
would vary based on the material, wouldn't
y
,
they, sir? They would be different for ITO
y,
y
versus some other conductive material that you
might consider?
g
A. Resistance will certainly vary.
y
y
Capacitance in the structure, if you use the
p
, y
same area, will not vary very much. In fact,
,
y
y
,
it p
probably won't vary at all. And dispersion
y
y
p
is primarily dependent on the dielectric, not
p
y p
on the conductor itself.
Q. Okay. Now, but it is your opinion,
Q
y
,
y
p
sir, that p
,
prior to the '607 p
patent, one of
,
skill in the art would not know how to
p p y,
properly, correctly or effectively deposit ITO
y
y
for use as an electrode in a mutual
capacitance, multi-touch device that could
p
,
detect more than one touch. Is that correct?
A. To realize said device, yes, I agree.
,y , g
Q. And, again, part of your criticism of
Page 1479

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SmartSkin is that it doesn't teach one of skill
in the art how to do the -- how to do that,
,
excuse me, in the section where it talks about
,
using transparent ITO as the sensor in a
g
p
multi-touch device; is that fair?
;
A. That is certainly one of my
criticisms.
Q. Okay. Let's be fair. Let's talk
Q
y
about the '607 p
patent, okay? Let's put it on
,
the same playing field.
p y g
Ryan, let's bring up -- I have made
y ,
g p
some slides of this last night just to move
g j
forward through this a little more q
g
quickly.
y
We're g g to p up different sections of the
going put p
patent, rather than having to refer you to it.
,
g
y
Ryan, let's turn first to RDX-006.
y ,
And I will tell you, sir, what I would like to
y , ,
do is look through for every reference of ITO
g
y
in the patent. If there is something I am
p
g
missing, something that comes to mind, feel
g,
g
,
free to look at the spec itself, but I tried to
p
,
capture the relevant sentences that discussed
p
ITO and a bit around it to put it in context.
A. I understand.
Q. Fair enough? But you are certainly
Q
g
y
y

12 (Pages 1476 to 1479)

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Page 1480

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free to refer to anything else. So, Ryan, we
y
g
, y ,
should have RTX-007. I guess that's 6. Sorry
about that.
So, this is column 5, lines 27 to 67
,
,
of the '607 p
patent. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. This, if I have it right, is the first
Q
,
g ,
reference to ITO in the '607 p
patent and it
says, "in order to produce a transparent
y ,
p
p
touchscreen, the capacitance sensing nodes are
,
p
g
formed with a transparent conductive medium
p
such as indium tin oxide (ITO)."
(
Do you see that, sir?
y
A. I do.
Q. And, again, before you mentioned, it
Q
, g ,
y
,
says such as, implying there are others, but
y
, py g
,
certainly it doesn't disclose any others; is
y
that right?
g
A. It does not disclose any other than
y
explicitly disclosing indium tin oxide, but
p
y
g
,
that is provided in an exemplary fashion.
p
p y
Q. Okay. And, by the way, it goes on to
Q
y
, y
y, g
discuss self-capacitance, sensing arrangements
p
,
g
and patterns for the remainder of that
p
paragraph and then we also put the beginning of

Page 1482

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Page 1481

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the next paragraph there, sir, excuse me, that
p g p
, ,
discusses mutual capacitance.
p
Do you see that?
y
A. I see those paragraphs.
p g p
Q. Okay. Now, it is fair to say, though,
Q
y
,
y,
g ,
in this first discussion, there are no specific
,
p
details about how to implement or use ITO in a
p
mutual capacitance multi-touch device that's
p
transparent, is there, sir?
,
,
A. Well, beyond saying that in a mutual
, y
y g
capacitance system, you have groups of
p
y
,y
g p
spatially separated lines formed on two
p
y p
different layers, there is no additional
y ,
disclosure beyond what's already shown on the
screen.
Q. That's all that's said there, right?
Q
, g
It doesn't discuss some of the characteristics
we talk about earlier, like impact on
resistance?
A. These paragraphs do not mention
p g p
resistance, capacitance -- well, they do
, p
,
y
mention capacitance, but they do not mention
p
,
resistance or dispersion.
p
Q. And they don't give any other details
Q
y
g
y
about the ITO, right? I mean, it is fair to
, g
,

say, isn't it, that at least based on this
y,
,
p g p
paragraph alone, somebody skilled in the art
,
y
who is trying to replicate the mutual
y g
p
capacitance device that can sense multiple
p
p
touches would need to do some experimentation,
wouldn't they?
y
A. If y
you're asking me if they have never
g
y
deposited ITO before and they had to deposit
p
y
p
it, would they have to learn how to tune the
,
y
deposition p
p
parameters? Yes, I agree. The key
, g
p
point is, however, the system of the '607
,
,
y
p
patent actually will work because the
y
disclosure of the circuitry allows it to work
with ITO.
Q. Okay. But at least in terms of -Q
y
we're talking now about depositing the ITO, the
g
p
g
shape of the ITO, the thickness of the ITO,
p
,
other characteristics of the ITO, how
,
transparent it is g g to be based on the
p
going
resistivity, those factors we discussed
y,
earlier, those details are not disclosed in
,
this portion; is that fair?
p
;
A. In the p g p y have g on the
paragraphs you
got
screen in RDX-28.007, I agree completely.
, g
p
y
Q. Let's turn to RDX-28.008. Again, sir,
Page 1483

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marching through j the ITO disclosures in
g
g just
the '607, this is the next one we found. It
,
says, "The electrodes 102 and sense traces 106
y ,
can be made from any suitable transparent
y
p
conductive material. By way of example, the
y y
p ,
electrodes 102 and traces 106 may be formed
from indium tin oxide."
This one is a little different, sir.
,
It doesn't say it on the slide, but I believe
y
,
this is referring to the self-capacitance
g
p
embodiment. Nevertheless, it is discussing
ITO. Do y see that, sir?
you
,
A. This section is discussing ITO.
g
Q. And then when it -- when it refers to
Q
any suitable transparent -- any suitable
y
p
y
transparent conductive material, again, it
p
, g ,
g
gives an example, the one example is ITO. Do
p
you see that, sir?
,
A. The explicitly called out material is
indeed ITO.
Q. Now, the first sentence, as long as
Q
,
,
g
we're here, says the electrodes and traces may
, y
be p
placed on the member using any suitable
g y
p
patterning technique, including, for example,
g
q ,
g,
deposition, etching, p
p
,
g, printing and the like.
g

13 (Pages 1480 to 1483)

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APL-ITC796-0000342518

Page 1484

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Do you see that, sir?
y
A. I do.
Q. Now, that's -- when it says any
Q
,
y
y
suitable patterning technique, is that
p
g
q ,
referring to the fact that those p
g
patterning
g
techniques were known in the field at the time?
q
A. With respect to these, yes.
p
,y
Q. With respect to the way to deposit ITO
Q
p
on a substrate. Is that fair?
A. With respect to how to deposit -p
p
actually, here it is specifically pattern -y,
p
yp
how to pattern ITO on a substrate, it is making
p
,
clear that there are multiple ways to do that
p
y
and they were known at the time.
y
Q. Okay. You could do it by deposition,
Q
y
y p
etching, and printing and the like, but it
g,
p
g
,
doesn't discuss any specific processes for
y p
p
doing that deposition, the etching, or the
g
p
,
printing. Is that fair?
g
A. If by that you mean, does it give the
y
y
,
g
details on how to do the deposition, how to do
p
,
the etching, how to do the printing? Yes, I
g,
p
g
,
agree, there is no further detail provided.
g
p
Q. And would you agree that how the
Q
y
g
deposition is done, how the etching is done,

Page 1486

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Page 1485

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how the printing is done may affect the
p
g
y
physical characteristics of the ITO?
y
A. You mean such as resistivity, et
cetera?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Yeah, they do.
,
y
Q. Now, do you recall being asked at your
Q
,
y
g
y
deposition, sir, to explain where in the '607
p
, ,
p
p
patent the inventors teach or disclose how to
create ITO electrodes as claimed in the patent?
A. I recall some discussion of that.
Q. And do you recall saying that there is
Q
y
y g
a fairly substantive discussion in column 10,
sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall -Q
y
A. Well, I don't recall saying
,
y g
specifically that, but it certainly would be a
p
y
,
section I would refer to.
Q. Well, we can put it up. The answer
Q
,
p
p
that I have, sir, and this is at your
, ,
y
transcript 220, line 12 to 211, line 16, you
p
,
,
,y
were asked: Well, I guess let me ask you,
, g
y ,
where in the '607 patent do they teach or even
p
y
disclose how to create ITO electrodes as

claimed in the asserted claims of the patent?
p
And I don't mean to test you, sir.
y ,
You are welcome to look at your transcript of
y
course. It says: Well, there is one fairly
y
,
substantive discussion in column 10.
Do y see that, sir?
you
,
A. I don't, but I have no reason to doubt
I said that.
Q. Why don't we put that up on the
Q
y
p
p
screen, Ryan. Why don't you get the next
, y
y
y g
q
question and answer. Go down to line 16,
please.
So we have put, this is continuous, it
p ,
,
is just two different pages. That's why there
j
p
is two different boxes.
A. I understand.
Q. The top question, sir, is what I just
Q
asked you.
y
"Question: Well, I guess, let me ask
Q
, g
,
y ,
you, where in the '607 p
patent do they teach or
y
even disclose how to create ITO electrodes as
claimed in the asserted claims of the patent."
Do y see that, sir?
you
,
A. I see that question.
q
Q. It is a general question, you were
Page 1487

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asked to identify the ITO disclosure in the
y
'607 patent. Do you remember that?
y
A. That appears to be the case.
pp
Q. And it appears to be the case, doesn't
Q
pp
,
it, that y p
,
you pointed specifically to the
p
y
discussion in column 10 that we just took a
look at. Isn't that correct, sir?
A. That's true.
Q. And not that you doubted this, but
Q
y
,
j
just so it is clear, you called that at the
,y
time a fairly substantive discussion. Is that
y
correct, sir?
,
A. That is what I said.
Q. And, in fact, you went down in
Q
,
,y
response to the next question, you specifically
p
q
,y
p
y
read that portion of column 10 as p of y
p
part your
answer to set forth what you viewed at the time
y
as a fairly substantive discussion. Is that
correct?
A. That's true.
Q. Okay. Let's turn to the next
Q
y
disclosure of ITO in the '607 patent. And this
p
should be on slide 009. It is the '607 patent,
column 12, lines 35 to 45.
,
Do y see in this p g p again it
you
paragraph g

14 (Pages 1484 to 1487)

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APL-ITC796-0000342519

Page 1488

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is talking about the touchscreen, it works its
g
,
way down to ITO at the end, but it begins, "the
y
,
g
touchscreen 134 includes a transparent
p
electrode layer that is positioned over a glass
y
member 138."
Do you see that, sir?
y
,
A. I see that language.
g g
Q. Now, it says at the end, "in most
Q
,
y
,
cases, the electrode layer 136 is disclosed on
,
y
the glass member 138 using transparent -g
g
p
sorry, "using suitable transparent conductive
y,
g
p
materials and patterning techniques such as ITO
and printing."
g
Do you see that?
y
A. Yes, I do.
,
Q. Once again, the only suitable
Q
g ,
y
conductive material disclosed is ITO; is that
correct, sir?
,
A. In terms of the example provided, yes.
p p
The only example provided is ITO.
y
p p
Q. And the example provided here is in
Q
p p
terms of the deposition technique in this
p
q
p
particular instance, it is p
,
patterning
g
techniques using a printing method. Is that
fair?

Page 1490

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Page 1489

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A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. It doesn't say anything more
Q
y
y y
g
about printing, it just says that's one of the
p
g, j
y
techniques that can be used. Is that correct,
sir?
A. In the sentence you have provided,
y
p
y ,
yes, it only says y can use printing. It
y y you
doesn't give any details.
g
y
Q. So let's move on to the next reference
Q
in the '607 patent. This is slide 10. It
p
should have column 13, line 62 to column 14,
line 5.
A. I see that.
Q. And, again, sir, this portion of the
Q
, g , ,
p
specification, and if I have it correctly, this
p
,
y,
is referring to figure 9 of the patent, there
g
g
p
,
has been some time spent in the case on figure
p
9. I probably should have started there.
p
y
Ryan, do you mind putting up figure 9 of the
y ,
y
p
g
'607 p
patent for a moment.
Just for reference purposes, sir, do
you recall figure 9?
g
A. I do recall figure 9.
g
Q. And figure 9 is a mutual capacitance
Q
g
p
example where we have drive and sense lines; is
p
;

that correct, sir?
,
A. Yes, I agree with that.
, g
Q. So let's go back, Ryan, to RDX-28.010.
Q
g
, y ,
Again, the last sentence in this section after
g ,
p
pointing out the different lines in figure 9,
g
g
,
it says, "furthermore, the lines 52 can be made
y ,
,
from any suitable transparent conductive
y
p
material. By way of example, the lines may be
y y
p ,
y
formed from indium tin oxide." Do you see
that, again, sir?
, g ,
A. I believe the lines are 152, not 52,
,
but otherwise you read it correctly.
y
Q. Yes, sir. Thank you.
,
y
Now, let's take a look at RDX-010.
,
And this is column 14, lines 60 to column 15,
,
line 23. Okay. The good news is this is the
y
g
last reference. It is a bit longer, but I just
g ,
j
want to work through it for a moment.
g
Okay, you have seen this portion
before?
A. Yes.
Q. I want you to have it in mind. I see
Q
y
y
you are reading it. When y are done kind of
g
you
going through it, would you let me know?
g ,
y
A. Certainly. I have read it.
Page 1491

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Q. Let's just read in for the record the
Q
j
first couple of lines. It says, "as mentioned
p
y ,
above, the lines in order to form
,
semi-transparent conductors on glass, film or
p
g
,
p
plastic, may be patterned with an ITO
,
material."
Do y see that?
you
A. Yes.
Q. Now, by the way, this says glass,
Q
, y
y,
y g
,
film, or plastic. Are those different types of
, p
yp
materials on which ITO can be placed using the
p
g
techniques that were discussed earlier such as
q
etching or printing?
g p
g
A. Etching doesn't p
g
place the ITO.
Etching removes the ITO. But with respect to
g
p
could you deposit ITO on g
y
p
glass, film, or
,
,
plastic as called out here, the answer is yes.
,
y
Q. Yes. You are right, sir. The ITO is
Q
g ,
deposited and then the p
p
portions of the ITO film
that are not going to be used in the final
g g
configuration of the device are etched away.
g
Is that correct, j like y etched away
, just
you
glass to make a pattern? Is that true?
p
A. Yes, that's a reasonable description.
,
Q. And the characteristics of the
Q

15 (Pages 1488 to 1491)

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Page 1492

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substrate material, be it glass or film or
,
g
p
plastic, that's g g to affect the deposition
,
going
p
p
process and the p
process that's used to create
the resulting pattern, if it is etching, for
gp
,
example. Isn't that true, sir?
,
A. There is some impact of the substrate
p
on the deposition. It depends -- the amount of
p
p
impact depends on the deposition technique, et
p
cetera.
Certainly usually you can get higher
y
yy
g
g
q
quality ITO on glass than you do on plastic,
y
for example.
p
Q. But if you are using plastic, for
Q
y
gp
,
example, there is -- the characteristics of
p ,
p
plastics varies widely in terms of the features
y
that a polymer engineer or a chemical engineer
p y
g
g
would discuss. Isn't that true? You know
that, sir, right?
, , g
A. For better or worse, I have been
,
working on p
g
plastic based electronics for many
y
years now and, y , the p p
, yes,
properties of the
p
plastic do impact the layers that are put on
top of it.
p
Q. Properties are things such as
Q
p
hardness; is that correct?

Page 1494

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Page 1493

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A. Yes.
Q. And those properties are impacted or
Q
p p
p
those properties need to be taken into
p p
consideration in the manufacturing process, for
gp
,
example, when you are depositing the ITO layer.
p ,
Isn't that true?
A. When you are integrating your system,
y
g
gy
y
in other words, you are figuring out how you
,y
g
g
are going to do the deposition, the space
g g
p
,
p
within which you can choose the deposition
y
p
characteristics you want to use do depend on
y
the properties of the substrate.
p p
Q. Okay. And the use of the device
Q
y
itself -- well, I'm sorry.
,
y
Not only do the characteristics of the
y
substrate affect the deposition process, there
p
p
,
are also characteristics of the substrate that
must be taken into account when the device
itself is ultimately used. Is that fair?
y
A. You mean in terms of the design of the
device, the overall device?
,
Q. Yes, sir.
Q
,
A. Yes. That's true.
JUDGE ESSEX: Pardon me. Let me
interrupt y j a moment.
p you just

I read this as well, and I am reading
,
g
the paragraph, it is talking about in order to
p g p ,
g
p
prevent the aforementioned p
problem, the dead
,
areas between the ITO may be filled, and I
y
,
don't see the dead areas as an aforementioned
p
problem in that. It doesn't make sense to me.
Can you help me out with that at all?
y
p
THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honor.
y,
Actually, it is easy to do it with a figure.
y,
y
g
So we can do it with figure 9, if we could have
g
,
figure 9, I can explain from there.
,
p
Actually, let's use figure 10. That's
even better.
So, Your Honor, if you look at figure
,
, y
g
10, each of these (indicating) represents a
,
stripe of ITO.
JUDGE ESSEX: Right.
g
THE WITNESS: So in this example, we
p ,
deposit a blanket film of ITO that covers the
p
entire p
plastic. And then we etch it out from
certain regions to form these lines. So now
g
what y are left with if y were to look at
you
you
the sheet of plastic, you have some regions
p
that have ITO.
JUDGE ESSEX: Right.
Page 1495

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THE WITNESS: And other regions that
g
don't. Now, it turns out the refractive index,
,
,
an optical p p y of a material, is different
p
property
,
for ITO and for plastic and is different for
ITO and for air.
It is also -- let's say you were then
yy
g g p
going to put this in a sandwich where, for
,
example, you put a glue layer on top and then
p ,y p
g
y
p
sandwich them together. Well, it may be
g
,
different for the ITO to the g
glue.
So now you have a problem. You are
y
p
looking at a sheet of plastic. Some regions,
g
p
g
,
the light is going through ITO, which has one
g
g g
g
,
refractive index. And the other regions, it is
g
,
g g
going through glue, which has a different
g g
refractive index.
And so the eye perceives a shimmer
y p
because there is a variation in refractive
index. So the dead area discussion is
referring to the areas between the ITO where
g
the ITO was removed.
JUDGE ESSEX: Okay. So it is a poorly
y
p
written p g p then? It didn't talk about
paragraph
the refractive -- all right. The p
g
problem of
the dead areas wasn't mentioned until it came

16 (Pages 1492 to 1495)

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up with filling those areas up, and -g
p,
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. I
,
think the reason they called it -- they hadn't
y
y
explained what dead areas were before, but in
p
,
the previous paragraph they discussed etching
p
p g p
y
g
away the ITO. So that etching process creates
y
the dead areas.
JUDGE ESSEX: Okay. I'm sorry for the
interruption. Go ahead.
p
BY MR. DeFRANCO:
Q. So going back and following up on His
Q
g g
g p
Honor's comment, it says in the second
,
y
p g p ,
paragraph, "in order to p
prevent the
aforementioned problem, the dead areas between
p
,
the ITO may be filled with index matching
y
materials." Do you see that, sir?
y
,
A. With indexing matching materials, yes,
I see that.
Q. Yes. I am having a little trouble
Q
reading this morning.
g
g
It doesn't disclose any specific index
y p
matching materials, does it, sir?
g
,
,
A. You mean a specific example of an
p
indexing matching material?
g
Q. Yes.

Page 1498

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Page 1497

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A. That's true, it does not.
,
Q. And ITO, again, as you said earlier, I
Q
, g , y
,
believe you said was the transparency is going
y
p
to be a function of resistivity; is that
correct?
A. The parameters that affect
p
transparency also have resistivity.
y
y
Q. Okay. So you could, based on the way
Q
y
y
,
y
y
your system is designed and the way the ITO is
y
g
y
deposited, the way the ITO is etched away, if
p
,
y
y
etching is used, all of that may ultimately
g
,
y
y
affect the transparency of the ITO when it is
p
y
in the completed device, is that fair?
p
,
A. The way the ITO is deposited -y
p
Q. Let me ask a better question. I'm
Q
sorry.
y
A. That's fine.
Q. There are characteristics of the ITO
Q
itself that impact the transparency; is that
right?
g
A. Yes, that's true.
,
Q. There are certainly different brands,
Q
y
,
types, versions of ITO on the market. There
yp ,
was back in the 2003 time frame, wasn't there?
,
A. There are certainly different
y

manufacturers who brand their ITO with their
respective brand names.
p
Q. Right.
Q
g
A. And they have different properties.
y
p p
Q. Different properties, different types,
Q
p p
,
yp ,
different costs, different characteristics. Is
that true?
A. If by -- I don't know what exactly you
y
mean by types, but they certainly have
y yp ,
y
y
different p p
properties and they are targeted at
y
g
different costs and they are available in
different substrates.
Q. And they have different
Q
y
transparencies?
A. Yes.
Q. And they have different properties?
Q
y
A. That's true as well.
Q. And all of that is going to impact the
Q
g g
p
transparency when the ITO is ultimately used in
p
y
y
any device, such as a pad or a phone. Isn't
y
that true?
A. Yes, that's true.
,
Q. And this is talking about somehow you
Q
g
y
have got to come up with an index matching
g
p
material that is going to appear to the user
Page 1499

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that the transparency is uniform. Is that
correct?
A. That is the goal of this section, yes.
g
,y
Q. Okay. And, in other words, you don't
Q
y
,
,y
want somebody to look at their pad or their
y
p
p
phone and see some sort of hint or trace of the
ITO lines, that would be unappealing to a user
,
of the device. Is that fair?
A. Certainly that's the general problem
y
g
p
that they are trying to address, yes.
y
y g
,y
Q. Okay. So after all the work that's
Q
y
done to design a device, to pick the ITO, to
g
, p
,
figure out the characteristics y need to
g
you
choose the brand with a certain transparency,
p
y
to deposit it, to etch it away, y have g to
p
,
y, you
got
figure out, if you choose to do so, what
g
, y
,
indexing material to use to put in between the
g
p
lines to make sure that that unpleasant effect
p
doesn't occur. Is that fair, sir?
,
A. Yes, I generally agree with that.
, g
y g
Q. Okay. And you will agree it is going
Q
y
y
g
g
to take a little bit of experimentation for
p
somebody skilled in the art to figure out
y
g
exactly what indexing material to use to
y
g
achieve that result in a particular device. Is
p

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that correct?
A. If you are given an unknown system,
y
g
y
,
y
you would have to measure its p p
properties and do
some experimentation. It is not a significant
p
amount with respect to that.
p
Q. Okay. But you will agree that in this
Q
y
y
g
p
particular implementation, the inventors didn't
p
,
disclose what indexing material they used, did
they?
y
A. That's true.
Q. They didn't disclose how they were
Q
y
y
able to choose a proper or appropriate indexing
p p
material; isn't that correct?
;
A. Beyond saying that you could use an
y
y g
y
index, a matched index material?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. I agree. I mean, that does give the
g
,
g
g
guideline. It says y would use a matched
y you
index material but, yes, I agree, beyond that,
,y , g , y
they haven't said what material to use, for
y
example.
Q. Okay. And somebody skilled in the art
Q
y
y
would take that guideline and determine what
g
indexing material to use in their own
g
configuration?

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A. Yes.
Q. So going back, we started to talk
Q
g g
,
about the disclosure of ITO in this particular
p
section and just to finish up on that, it says,
j
p
,
y ,
"as mentioned above, the lines in order to form
,
semi-transparent conductors on glass, film, or
p
g
,
p
plastic, may be patterned with an ITO
,
material."
Do you see that?
y
A. You are reading the first line again?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Yes.
Q. Then it goes on, "this is generally
Q
g
,
g
y
accomplished by depositing an ITO layer over
p
y p
g
y
the substrate surface, and then by etching away
,
y
g
p
portions of the ITO layer in order to form the
lines."
Do you see that, sir?
y
A. I do.
Q. And it says, "as should be
Q
y ,
appreciated, the areas with ITO tend to have
pp
,
lower transparency than the areas without ITO."
p
y
Do you see that, sir?
y
A. I do.
Q. We have discussed that at length. And
Q
g

that phrase, doesn't it imply it should be
p
,
py
appreciated by somebody in the art who has used
pp
y
y
ITO before; is that correct?
;
A. Oh, yes. You mean someone of skill in
,y
the art who read it would know what that means?
Yes.
Q Yes. Okay. So we have walked through
Q.
y
now, sir, I believe, if I have it right, all
, ,
,
g ,
the portions of the '607 specification that
p
p
specifically reference ITO. Is that fair?
p
y
A. With respect to the referencing of ITO
p
g
itself, that's true. We haven't looked at the
,
circuit, for example.
,
p
Q We haven't looked at the circuit, but
Q.
,
at least in discussing ITO, its properties,
g
,
p p
,
what particular brand or type should be used,
p
yp
dispersion characteristics, resistivity
p
,
y
characteristics, its impact on the capacitance,
,
p
p
all of those issues with respect to ITO itself,
p
,
we have covered the portions of the '607 patent
p
p
that in any way discuss ITO; is that correct,
sir?
A. With respect to the discussion of ITO
p
itself, that is true. We haven't discussed how
,
that's impacted by the circuit choices that you
Page 1503

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make.
Q. Okay. There are other design choices
Q
y
g
that may impact the type of ITO and the
y p
yp
characteristics that it has that are used in a
particular device; is that fair?
;
A. There are certainly design choices.
y
g
There is also a sort of fundamental circuit
topology choices, which are not simple design
p gy
choices.
Q. Correct. And those are -- all of
Q
those are going to impact a particular ITO
g g
p
p
that's used in the device and how it is
deposited and the ultimate configuration?
p
g
A. They will. And more g
y
generally, they
y,
y
may determine whether you can use ITO or not.
y
y
Q. And how would one skilled in the art
Q
determine whether they can use ITO or not in a
y
particular configuration, by experimenting?
g
, y p
g
A. Certainly one thing you could do if
y
gy
y
you were g
given a p
particular circuit topology
would be do a significant amount of
g
experimentation. And in some cases, it
p
,
wouldn't work, and then y would essentially
,
you
y
be driven to do invention, come up with a new
topology that does work.
p gy

18 (Pages 1500 to 1503)

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Page 1504

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Q. Now, let's talk a little bit about
Q
,
another feature that you say is lacking in the
y
y
g
SmartSkin reference. I believe another one is
y
you don't believe that SmartSkin discloses a
concept of layering and how that's covered in
p
y
g
the elements of the asserted claims of the '607
patent?
A. With respect to specific layers,
that's true.
Q. And in your opinion, generally, sir -Q
y
p
,g
y,
why don't we put up question number 118 and the
y
p
pq
answer. And here, sir, you say the layer
, ,y
y
y
limitations are those limitations that require
q
the use of two different layers of conductive
y
lines in the touch sensor. All of the asserted
claims require these limitations.
q
Do you see that?
y
A. These layer limitations, yes, I see
that.
Q. And you go on to say those are lacking
Q
y g
y
in SmartSkin; is that right?
;
g
A. I say that the limitations that are
y
missing are identified in this particular CDX.
g
p
Q. Now, is it also your opinion, sir,
Q
,
y
p
, ,
that SmartSkin doesn't disclose layers because

Page 1506

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Page 1505

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it uses a copper mesh?
pp
A. You are talking about in relation to
g
figure 2? That's true.
g
Q. Yes. Well, figure 2 of SmartSkin, you
Q
are referring to?
g
A. Correct.
Q. Let's put up figure 2 and let's put up
Q
p
p g
p
p
a paragraph that we haven't looked at yet,
p g p
which should all be in slide 28.012.
Let's go through the same drill, sir.
g
g
,
Let's see what you and I can agree upon with
y
g
p
respect to figure 2, its disclosure as set
p
g
,
forth in the figure itself and the related text
g
of the SmartSkin article. Okay?
y
You will agree with me, won't you,
g
,
y ,
that SmartSkin discloses a grid of transmitter
g
and receiver electrodes. Isn't that fair?
A. Yes, those are called out in the
,
second sentence of the paragraph on RDX-28.012.
p g p
Q. And that is shown in figure 2 as well,
Q
g
isn't it? Can you point that out for us?
y p
A. Certainly. If you are referring to
y
y
g
the grid of transmitter and receiver electrodes
g
using the language on RDX-28.002, the grid it
g
g g
is specifically referring to, it is
p
y
g

specifically referring to with respect to
p
y
g
p
figure 2 is this g of vertical and
g
grid
horizontal copper wires.
pp
Q. And is it your opinion that the sensor
Q
y
p
g
grid of electrodes in SmartSkin as shown in
figure 2 could not be implemented as having one
g
p
layer for the drive electrodes and having a
y
g
different layer for the sense electrodes?
y
A. I understand the question. Could I
q
have the CDX that you referred to or that I
y
referred to earlier in reference to the
question and answer you put up, please?
y p
p, p
Q. You mean your -- where I said this is
Q
y
what y said was lacking?
you
A. Yes.
Q. Sure, sure.
Q
,
A. Thank you.
y
Q. It is a small fee. Let me find it.
Q
It should be slide 003. Is that the one you
wanted to see, sir?
,
A. Yes. Thank you. No, it was the one
y
,
in answer to the -- was this the one I
referenced in the q
question y p up? I can
you put p
find it. If you p the q
y put
question up again, I
p g ,
can find it. I have the binder in front of me.
Page 1507

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Q. Was it from your witness statement?
Q
I'm sorry.
y
A. I believe so.
Q. Okay. So let's find -- let's see if
Q
y
we can get that back. Hold on.
g
A. I have them in front of me now if you
want.
Q. You have the paragraph?
Q
p g p
A. Yes. The question is up there and I
found the -Q. Got it. Great. Is that what you
Q
wanted to refer to, sir?
,
A. Yes, thank you.
,
y
Q. Okay. Now, my question was, sir, is
Q
y
, yq
, ,
it y
your testimony that the sensor g that is
y
grid
the drive lines and the sense lines that are
shown in figure 2 of the SmartSkin reference
g
could not be implemented in a device that had
p
different layers for each?
y
A. With respect to layers as used in
p
y
claims 1 and 10, for example? Yes, that's
correct.
Q. Yes. And your opinion for that is
Q
y
p
because it is a copper mesh to create the
pp
capacitance nodes; is that correct?
p
;

19 (Pages 1504 to 1507)

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Page 1508

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A. These are copper, and that is one of
pp ,
the reasons for my opinion, yes.
y p
,y
Q. But you will agree, won't you, that
Q
y
g ,
y ,
based on the disclosure of figure 2 in the
g
SmartSkin reference, the use of copper wires in
,
pp
a mutual capacitance device could take on a
p
variety of configurations, couldn't it?
y
g
,
A. You mean if you are using copper
y
g pp
wires, could you do them in different ways?
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Generally, yes, I agree, you could use
y, y , g
copper in different ways.
pp
Q. Okay.
Q
y
A. In this system.
y
Q. Well, specifically, for example, you
Q
, p
y,
p ,y
could use copper wires in a mutual capacitance
pp
p
configuration where the layers for the drive
g
y
and sense lines are spatially separated,
couldn't y
you?
A. You could use copper wires such that
pp
the wires are separated. Those would not meet
p
the layer requirement of the claims.
y
q
Q. But you could -- you could use them in
Q
y
y
separate layers? In other words, outside of a
p
y
,
mesh configuration, couldn't you, sir?

Page 1510

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Page 1509

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A. If you are using layers outside of
y
g y
what it means in the claims, where there are
,
specific characteristics tied to the layers,
p
y ,
y , g
yes, I agree y could have them spatially
you
separated. That's possible.
p
p
Q. We're just talking generally. Apart
Q
j
gg
y
p
from the claims right now, one skilled in the
g
,
art -- it is your testimony, isn't it, that one
y
y,
,
skilled in the art at the time was aware that
copper wires could be used in mutual
pp
capacitance, not only in a mesh configuration
p
,
y
g
but on spatially separated layers as well;
p
y
isn't that true?
A. Independent of the claim language,
p
without attributing the additional
g
characteristics imposed on layers by the
p
y
y
claims, yes, I agree they could be spatially
,y , g
y
p
y
separated and if you want to call those layers
p
y
y
independent of the claim language, I agree with
p
that statement.
Q. Okay. Let's turn to another document,
the related patent application to the SmartSkin
reference. You're aware of that reference,
sir, right?
A. Yes.

Q. And this is what's been referred to in
the case as a Rekimoto Japanese patent
application. You're aware of that, sir?
A. I am. I believe he is the lead
author.
Q. Let's put on the screen, please,
RDX-28.013.
Sir, this Rekimoto reference, this is
from one of the Sony engineers who also
authored or coauthored the SmartSkin article
that we talked about earlier. Do you recall
that, sir?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. And this is one of the references that
Motorola relies on as prior art for its
position that the asserted claims of the '607
patent are invalid in this investigation.
You're aware of that, sir?
A. Yes, I'm aware that this is one of the
pieces of art that Motorola relies on.
Q. By the way, the prosecution history in
this case is pretty voluminous, just in terms
of number of pages. Is that correct?
A. It does have a large number of pages.
Q. It has got -- for example, it has got
Page 1511

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a copy of at least many if not most, possibly
all -- I didn't check -- but many of the
articles that are cited on the front of the -or towards the beginning of the '607 patent as
prior art; is that correct?
A. There are certainly some of them. I
also have not checked if all of them are there.
Q. Okay. I counted, and we have been
through this, it is over 300 references cited
in the front of the '607 patent.
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. And the examiner read many of those
references in considering this application. Is
that fair?
A. Certainly I would assume the examiner
did.
Q. And the vast majority -- you will see,
we can put something up, and I will represent
to you that at the end of the several pages of
references -- why don't we put it up, so I get
this right, Ryan.
It is page 5 of the '607 patent at the
end of the reference list. One more page.
Blow that up.
Do you see there, sir, it says cited

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Page 1544

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that page.
Q. Yeah. At least on the front page of
the document, it says February 9th, 2003. Do
you see that, sir?
A. I do.
Q. Okay. And there is also a third
reference in this group or family. It is the
Morag '662, which we will talk a little bit
about later, but you have reviewed that as
well, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, it is your testimony with respect
Q
,
y
y
p
to this Perski reference, your opinion is that
,y
p
it fails to disclose, enable, or render obvious
,
,
the multi-touch limitations required by the
q
y
asserted claims under either of the parties'
p
proposed constructions. Is that correct, sir?
p
A. That's correct.
Q. So if we turn to the next slide,
Q
,
RDX-28.020, the limitations not disclosed,
,
that's the fifth bullet point down if I'm
p
counting that correctly, do you see that, it is
g
multi-touch?
A. Yes, that's referring to the preamble
,
limitations.

Page 1546

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Page 1545

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Q. So by way of comparison, you had a
Q
y y
p
,y
longer list as to what was not disclosed in the
g
SmartSkin references, we're talking about one
,
g
feature, multi-touch, that y believe is not
,
,
you
disclosed in the Perski reference. Is that
fair?
A. We are talking about the preamble
g
p
based limitations related to multi-touch.
Q. Yes, sir.
Q
,
A. Okay.
y
Q. Now, let's show briefly paragraph 74
Q
,
yp g p
in your rebuttal witness statement. Okay. So
y
briefly this is where y characterize
y
you
multi-touch in the two set of asserted claims
here. For example, with respect to claims 1 to
p ,
p
7, you say that the detection of multiple
,y
y
p
touches or near touches that occur at the same
time and at distinct locations where the
p
production of distinct signals representative
g
p
of the location as required by claim 1 and
q
y
dependent claims 2 to 7. Do you see that, sir?
p
A. I do.
Q. And then with respect to claim 10, you
Q
p
,y
have the characterization that's below that,
,
the recognition of multiple touch events that
g
p

occur at different locations on the touch panel
p
at the same time at distinct points across the
touch p
panel.
Do y see that?
you
A. Yes.
Q. And you go on to provide a bit of
Q
y g
p
additional information, sir; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, in your opinion, Perski
Q
y
, y
p
,
suffers from the same p
problems as the prior art
to the '607; is that correct?
;
A. Some of them, yes.
,y
Q. Okay. Some of them. And more
Q
y
specifically, in your view, Perski is directed
p
y, y
,
to a single touch device; is that correct?
g
;
A. Yes, that's primarily true.
,
p
y
Q. You don't think -- in your opinion, it
Q
y
p
,
doesn't disclose multi-touch or the processing
p
required for multi-touch; is that fair?
q
;
A. In my opinion, it does not disclose
y p
,
the multi-touch limitations as required
q
therewith by the relevant claims of the '607
patent.
Q. Okay. Let's turn to the next slide.
Q
y
We're going to go through a bit in the
Page 1547

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remaining time of some slides that show
g
different portions of the disclosure of the
p
Perski references. Okay? Are you with me?
A. I am.
Q. All right. Slide 021, do you see
Q
g
,
y
there that it is an excerpt from the Perski
p
specification that says, "the goal of the
p
y ,
g
finger detection algorithm in this method is to
g
g
recognize all of the sensor matrix j
g
junctions
that transfer signals due to external finger
touch."
Do y see that, sir?
you
A. I do.
Q. "It should be noted that this
Q
algorithm is p
g
preferably able to detect more
y
than one finger touch at the same time."
g
Do y see that, sir?
you
,
A. I do see that language.
g g
Q. No dispute that it explicitly says
Q
p
p
y y
that the algorithm is preferably able in Perski
g
p
y
to detect more than one finger touch at the
same time?
A. That language does exist in Perski.
g g
Q. Okay. Let's go to the next slide,
Q
y
g
,
p
please, slide 22. A little bit more detail, a
,
,

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Page 1548

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little in the provisional application. I just
p
pp
j
want to be clear. We're going to be going back
g g
g g
and forth between these related documents. In
the interest of time, to do it more
,
efficiently, I am going to take it a subject
y,
g g
j
matter at a time, but this is from the Perski
,
'808 p
provisional, the cover p g that we looked
,
page
at, it is Exhibit RX-303 on page 4.
p g
Okay? You have seen this document
before?
A. I have.
Q. Okay. Do you see, sir, that it says,
Q
y
y
, ,
y ,
"the goal of the finger detection algorithm in
g
g
g
this method is to recognize all of the sensor
g
matrix junctions that bypass signals due to
j
yp
g
external finger touch." Do you see that, sir?
g
A. I do.
Q. It goes on to say, "it should be noted
Q
g
y,
that this algorithm is able to detect more than
g
one finger touch at the same time."
g
That's the same discussion we saw in
the other Perski document about being able to
g
detect more than one touch, for example, two
,
p
touches obviously; is that correct, sir?
y;
,
A. That's what this particular language

Page 1550

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A. The second embodiment, the version
we're talking about here?
g
Q. Yes, sir.
Q
,
A. Yes, I agree with that.
, g
Q. Okay, this particular embodiment shows
Q
y,
p
the drive lines, number 22 with that arrow
,
showing an alternating signal being applied.
g
Do y see that?
you
A. Yes. An AC voltage is applied at 22.
g
pp
Q. Right. And then the arrow that's
Q
g
exiting, that's the sense line at item 30. Is
g,
that correct, sir?
,
A. That is, that is the particular sense
,
p
line associated with that node, produces a
,p
voltage, and then later on they actually
g ,
y
y
disclose some voltage sensing circuitry for
that.
Q. They do disclose voltage sensing
Q
y
g
g
circuitry for that, for those sense lines in
y
,
Perski; is that right?
;
g
A. Well, they actually disclose a voltage
,
y
y
g
sensing circuit for another embodiment. That's
g
the only sensing circuit that they actually
y
g
y
y
disclose, but with respect to this, they also
,
p
,
y
say you are sensing the voltage signals coming

Page 1549

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says, this further language that specifically
y ,
says it is too slow.
y
Q. Okay. Let's go on to slide 023. This
Q
y
g
is a figure that we have seen earlier in this
g
hearing, sir. I am sure you recognize it out
g,
of Perski.
A. Yes, I do.
,
Q. And do you see that next to that is
Q
y
associated language that relates to the figure
g g
g
2 that's depicted there? It says that right in
p
y
the text. Do you see that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you see that it states that a
Q
y
two-dimensional sensor matrix 20 lies in a
transparent layer over an electronic display
p
y
device? Do you see that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, "an electric signal 22 is
Q
y ,
g
applied to a first conductor line 24 in the
pp
two-dimensional sensor matrix."
Do you see that, sir?
y
A. I do.
Q. And this has -- this configuration in
Q
g
Perski, this has drive and sense lines, doesn't
,
it, no doubt?
,

Page 1551

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out.
Q.

Okay, fair enough.
y,
g
This particular portion goes on to
p
p
g
read, "a finger 26 touches the sensor 20 at a
,
g
certain position, increases the capacitance
p
,
p
between the first conductor line 24 and the
orthogonal conductor line 28 which happens to
g
be at or closest to the touch position."
Do y see that, sir?
you
A. Yes.
Q. That's the same concept, mutual
Q
p,
capacitance we have been over and over again,
p
g
the finger touches, it impacts the capacitance,
g
,
p
p
which is detected by the sensing circuit and
y
g
then the rest of the operation is performed; is
that fair, sir?
,
A. If y are asking me if this is
you
g
conceptually mutual capacitance, I don't
p
y
disagree with that.
g
Q. Now, if we turn over to RDX-24, this
Q
,
,
is some additional text that goes with that
g
same figure, sir, okay? It says, "a number of
g , ,
y
y ,
procedures for detection are p
possible."
You have seen this before, haven't
y
you?

30 (Pages 1548 to 1551)

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Page 1552

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A. Yes.
Q. It says, "the most simple and direct
Q
y ,
p
approach is to provide a signal to each one of
pp
p
g
the matrix lines in one of the matrix axes, one
,
line at a time, and to read the signal in turn
,
g
at each one of the matrix lines on the
orthogonal axis." Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. That is describing generally how the
Q
gg
y
sense operation is implemented in this
p
p
embodiment of Perski; is that correct?
;
A. Yes, and in this particular
,
p
embodiment, it discusses scanning all the way
,
across node by node.
y
Q. And this is a transparent
Q
p
configuration that's intended or can be
g
displaced over a display device. Isn't that
p
true?
A. It is transparent as described here.
p
This section doesn't specifically talk about
p
y
p
putting it over a display, but it certainly is
g
transparent.
Q. You don't dispute that this Perski
Q
p
device is transparent, do you?
p
A. No, I do not.

Page 1554

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Page 1553

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Q. And in terms of these procedures, the
Q
p
,
specification goes on in Perski and it says
p
g
y
this method enables the detection of multiple
finger touches. Do you see that, sir?
g
y
,
A. I do and you will note it doesn't say
y
y
at the same time there. And further in the
next paragraph, it goes on to say this is too
p
slow.
Q. Okay. But at least you agree with me
Q
y
y
g
in this particular paragraph, it does talk
p
p g p ,
about a transparent device and it talks about
p
how that is implemented in a particular
p
p
configuration and g
g
goes on to say specifically
y p
that this method enables the detection of
multiple finger touches. Is that correct?
g
A. It does, but not at the same time.
,
Q. Now, let's turn to slide RDX-026,
Q
,
,
skipping ahead a little bit, Ryan. Now, we're
pp g
, y
,
back again, sir, to the provisional application
g , ,
p
pp
of Perski. And there is an excerpt at the top
p
p
of the provisional application on page 4 along
p
pp
p g
g
with figure 2 from the provisional application.
g
p
Do you see that there?
y
A. Yes, I do.
,
Q. Now, just briefly, you don't dispute
Q
,j
y, y
p

that figure 2 shows a matrix of transparent
g
p
conductive lines and as we said before there
are drive and sense lines shown there?
A. This is indeed a matrix. I believe
there is description of the use of
p
transparency. And there are indeed drive and
p
y
sense lines.
Q. Okay. And if we -- and that's
Q
y
discussed in that portion of the Perski
p
p
provisional disclosure. Do you see that in
that paragraph?
p g p
A. That p
portion doesn't mention
transparency, but I believe it is mentioned
p
y,
somewhere else.
Q. Okay.
Q
y
A. But that is generally related to
figure 2.
g
Q. Well, let's look at transparency with
Q
,
p
y
respect to figure 2. If we go to the next
p
g
g
slide, slide 27, you will see the excerpt at
,
,y
p
the top, doesn't that disclose transparency?
p,
p
It says, "the p
y ,
present invention utilizes a
p
patterned transparent conductive foil system,
p
used for detecting the location of an
g
electromagnetic stylus on top of a display
Page 1555

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surface in order to enable multiple and
p
simultaneous finger inputs directly on the
display."
y
Do y see that, sir?
you
A. I do.
Q. So there it is saying for sure with
Q
y g
that question, it is transparent, obviously,
q
,
p
you don't disagree with that?
A. I don't.
Q. It also discloses that the purpose for
Q
p p
that is to enable multiple and simultaneous
p
finger inputs directly on display. Do you see
g
p
that, sir?
,
A. It does say that. In fact, in the
y
,
main body, it goes on to say it is too slow.
y, g
y
Q. Okay. Let's turn to slide 28. Again,
Q
y
a little bit more about this figure 2. It
g
says, "the most simple and direct approach is
y ,
p
pp
to provide a signal to each of the matrix
p
g
lines, in one of the matrix axes, one line at a
,
,
time, and to read the signal at each one of the
,
g
matrix lines on the orthogonal axis."
g
Do y see that, sir?
you
A. I do.
Q. Okay. It says, "it is possible to
Q
y
y ,
p

31 (Pages 1552 to 1555)

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Page 1556

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sample a group of reception lines at the same
p
g p
p
time, and even to sample all reception lines
,
p
p
simultaneously, thus reducing the number of
y,
g
lines to N." Do you see that, sir?
y
,
A. Thus reducing the number of steps to
N?
Q. Yes, sir.
Q
,
A. Yes, I see that.
,
Q. Now, I would like to turn for a moment
Q
,
to the Morag provisional, which is, I believe,
gp
,
,
incorporated by reference in the Perski '455
p
y
patent. Is that your understanding, sir?
y
g,
A. I understand that's what's being
claimed, yes.
,y
Q. Okay. So if we go to the next slide,
Q
y
g
slide 29, please, Ryan, you have seen this
,p
, y ,y
figure 1 from the Morag provisional; is that
g
right, sir?
g
A. I believe so. Let me just turn to it,
please. Yes, I see it.
,
Q. And you have also looked at that text,
Q
y
,
and there is some highlighted text there in the
g g
middle. I won't read that, but you have seen
,
that before, sir, haven't you?
, ,
A. Yes, I have.

Page 1558

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Page 1557

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Q. Now, if you look at that language in
Q
, y
g g
that paragraph, sir, wouldn't you say that
p g p , ,
y
y
g
generally discusses that there is reception
y
p
from the sensing lines, there is filtering and
g
,
g
amplification of the signal, there is sampling
p
g ,
p g
into a digital representation, and then sending
g
p
,
that digital representation out to a DSP or
g
p
digital signal processor; is that right, sir?
g
g
p
;
g ,
A. DSP is digital signal processor, but,
g
g
p
,
I'm sorry, I am looking for the language.
y,
Q. Okay.
Q
y
A. So it does say it amplifies the
y
p
signal. It says it filters out irrelevant
g
y
frequencies. It says it samples it into a
q
y
p
digital representation. And it says it
g
p
y
forwards it for further digital p
g
processing.
g
Q. And would you agree that the digital
Q
y
g
g
representation is p
p
processed to determine the
p
position of one or more objects and then that's
j
sent to some other circuitry?
y
A. Well, that's not described here, but
,
,
certainly if that were the desired operation,
y
p
,
y
you would -- that would be something you would
probably do in the digital domain.
y
g
Q. So where it states the digital unit 3
Q
g

is responsible for running the digital
p
g
g
p
processing algorithms, the outcome of the
g g
,
digital p
g
process is the p
position of one or more
p y
physical objects, typical stylus, which is
j
, yp
y ,
forward to the host via interface 7."
Do y see that, sir?
you
,
A. It is typically but, yes, I see that
language.
g g
Q. And it is using the information that's
Q
g
received from the mutual capacitance grid to
p
send the data to the digital processing
g
p
g
algorithm so that it can detect the p
g
position of
more than one physical device. Isn't that
true, sir?
,
A. Yes, I agree with that.
, g
Q. Okay. Now, let's take a look at -- at
Q
y
,
least in terms of that language you don't
g g y
dispute Perski is talking about how to use an
p
g
algorithm and associated circuitry to detect
g
y
multiple touches in a transparent device?
p
A. You mean Perski by incorporating
Morag?
g
Q. Yes, sir.
Q
,
A. I understand. So with respect to the
p
incorporation, in Morag, it certainly says what
Page 1559

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y
you do with what comes out of the g
grid. And if
I didn't answer your question fully -y
q
Q. No, you did, thank you.
Q
,y
A. Okay.
y
Q. Just want to turn briefly to another
Q
y
version of the Perski figures on which we have
g
added some items. It is RDX-28030. I know you
have spent significant amount of time with
p
g
this. Just for the record and make sure we're
on the same page, this is figure 2 from the
p g ,
g
Perski with some colorization of the drive and
sense lines. Do you see that, sir? Sense
y
,
lines are in red. Drive lines are in blue, one
each, in each of these two depictions?
A. I see that.
Q. And in the original Perski, what was
Q
g
,
the circle that's yellow on top, what did that
y
p,
reflect that was a circle in the drawing as it
originally existed?
g
y
A. That is generally pointing to a
g
yp
particular node on the figure.
g
Q. And we have added a node. Do you see
Q
that, a node below each one of those?
,
A. I see that.
Q. The Perski references we have been
Q

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talking about, they disclose the ability to
g
,
y
y
sense two different touches at two different
locations on a mutual capacitance transparent
device. Isn't that, sir?
,
A. Not at the same time. Yes, I agree.
, g
If y are talking about timing, y , it does.
you
g
g, yes,
Q. So your opinion is that it can detect
Q
y
p
more than one, just not simultaneously?
,j
y
A. So there is two possibilities. If it
p
uses the technique disclosed, it is too slow to
q
,
do it simultaneously. If it uses the so-called
y
faster technique, it is not able to actually
q ,
detect multiple touches accurately.
p
y
Q. Okay. And that is one of the bases on
Q
y
which you, in your opinion, distinguish the
y , y
p
,
Perski references; is that correct?
;
A. That is something I have considered,
yes.
Q. Now, do you remember that any specific
Q
,
y
y p
disclosure in the '607 patent that teaches the
p
detection of multiple fingers at the exact same
p
g
time? In other words, is that explicitly
,
p
y
discussed anywhere in the '607 patent?
y
p
A. If by exact same time, you mean at the
y
,y
same picosecond, no. In fact, that's not a

Page 1562

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Page 1561

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requirement. But what is a requirement is that
q
q
it appears at the same time to the user. And
pp
that's my opinion with respect to claim
y p
construction.
Q. I don't want to quibble about times.
Q
q
In terms of what it says in the '607
y
specification, there is no discussion about how
p
,
the invention gives the ability to detect two
g
y
touches or multiple touches at the exact same
p
time; is that correct?
A. And by exact, you mean not as
y
,y
perceived by the user but realtime?
y
Q. Yes, in realtime?
Q
,
A. I agree with that.
g
Q. And there is some -- as you said, if
Q
y
,
there is fingers that are spread apart, not
g
p
p ,
this configuration, if my fingers are spread
g
,
y g
p
apart on a device that's implemented using the
p
p
g
'607 p
patented technology, there is g g to be
gy,
going
some time lag there as you were suggesting,
g
isn't there, sir?
,
A. Not as perceived by the user, but in
p
y
,
terms of picosecond differences, for example,
p
yes, absolutely.
,
y
Q. Certainly, but that's because of the
Q
y,

way that the sense lines are scanned, right,
y
, g
from one side to the other, they are not
,
y
scanned at exactly the same time. Isn't that
correct, sir?
,
A. If y mean do y read all the nodes
you
you
simultaneously to the exact fraction, no, you
do not.
Q. And I don't remember, you haven't done
Q
,y
any tests in this case as to whether a very
y
y
short, p
, precise touch by two fingers at exactly
y
g
y
the same time could be detected by devices that
implemented the '607 invention?
p
A. You mean have I taken a phone and
tried that?
Q. Yes. Have you done any -- well, have
Q
y
y
,
y
you done any tests to see whether those two
y
touches could be recognized at an instantaneous
point in time?
A. As perceived by me, yes, they clearly
p
y
,y ,
y
y
are. Are y asking me, have I used some sort
you
g
,
of ultra high speed camera to figure out if
g p
g
they are actually p
y
y perceived within picoseconds
of each other, no.
,
Q. You haven't done any tests in that
Q
y
regard, that's all I am asking?
Page 1563

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A. In that regard, no.
g ,
Q. So then if we go back to this figure
Q
g
g
that we're looking at, RDX-28030, there is no
g ,
,
discussion, if you look at -- consider those
, y
two yellow points or two points of touch in the
y
p
p
Perski configuration, there is no discussion in
g
,
Perski that if there were a single large touch,
g
g
,
for an example, it could be recognized as two
p ,
g
different touches, if we talk about that
hypothetical.
yp
A. I disagree. The Perski reference says
g
y
I believe y detect node by node and each node
you
y
corresponds to a touch. So if by large you are
p
y g
allowing it to overlap, that wouldn't
g
necessarily follow.
y
Q. Let's take a look at column 14, lines
Q
,
15 to 19 of the -- I think the easiest way to
y
do this, Ryan, is to go back to slide RDX-021.
, y ,
g
Just where we were before, sir, at least there
, ,
is a specific disclosure in Perski that the
p
algorithm is able to detect more than one
g
finger touch at the same time, do y see that,
g
,
you
sir, that's the goal of the Perski reference?
,
g
A. That is what it says with regard to
y
g
the goal in RX-708 at column 14, lines 15
g
,

33 (Pages 1560 to 1563)

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Page 1564

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through 19.
Q. I thought you had said in a portion of
Q
g y
p
y
your rebuttal witness statement that a single
g
large touch could cause an output signal to
g
p
g
detect more than one conductor line and the
Perski detection method would register this as
g
two touches instead of one. Is that right,
sir?
A. Perhaps you could point me to it, but
p y
p
that does sound like something I said.
g
Q. We can look at it, but you don't
Q
disagree with that?
g
A. I don't disagree with that.
g
Q. Okay. So going back to Perski again
Q
y
g g
g
where we started, Perski never discusses that
,
as being a problem; isn't that true, sir?
g p
;
,
A. You mean does he say this is a
y
shortcoming of his method?
g
Q. Yes.
Q
A. With respect to that, no, I don't
p
, ,
believe so. He didn't recognize it, but it is.
g
,
Q. You have taken a look at the witness
Q
statements of the fact witnesses in this case
that relate to the '607 patent, specifically
p
, p
you have read Mr. Hotelling's witness

Page 1566

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statement, haven't you, sir?
,
y
A. Yes, I have.
,
Q. Okay. And you actually considered
Q
y
y
y
that, I think you may have referenced that in
,
y
y
some of your own testimony in the case, but be
y
y
,
that as it may, you have read that testimony,
y
haven't you?
y
A. His witness statement? Yes, I have.
,
Q. And in his witness statement, he
Q
,
identifies three classes of touch detection.
Do you recall that, sir?
y
,
A. Not specifically, but I'm not -- I
p
y,
don't have it in front of me right now.
g
Q. Okay. Well, let's put up -- I don't
Q
y
,
p
p
know if you have this, Ryan, but the Hotelling
y
, y ,
witness statement, question and answer 21.
,q
MR. FERGUSON: Excuse me, Your Honor,
I think this is confidential.
JUDGE ESSEX: Well, I don't -- is this
Apple confidential?
MR. FERGUSON: This would be Apple
confidential.
JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
g
MR. DeFRANCO: Let me try to do it
without putting that on the screen.
p
g

JUDGE ESSEX: All right. You are
g
going to try to avoid going into confidential?
g
y
g g
MR. DeFRANCO: I would like to.
JUDGE ESSEX: You want to stay on the
public record?
MR. DeFRANCO: Yes, sir.
,
JUDGE ESSEX: All right. Go ahead.
BY MR. DeFRANCO:
Q. If we talk about a class of touch
Q
detections, a touch detection system that takes
,
y
two touch points and averages them, which I
p
g
,
believe is shown as a problem with the prior
p
p
art in figure 1A. Do y recall that, where
g
you
,
there is a little plus sign between the two?
p
g
A. By figure 1A, you are referring to
y g
,y
figure 1A of the '607 patent?
g
Q. Yes.
Q
A. Yes.
Q. Perski is not one -- doesn't suffer
Q
from that p
problem, does it, the ability to not
,
,
y
have to average two touch p
g
points, right?
, g
Clearly Perski could separate, was an advance
y
p
,
over that class of touch devices, wasn't it,
sir?
A. You are asking me with reference to
Page 1567

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the node by node scanning method?
y
Q. Yes.
Q
A. In the node by node scanning method,
y
g
Perski does not talk about averaging, so he
g
doesn't suffer from that p
problem.
Q. And you didn't see anything in there
Q
y
y
g
that said that Perski needed to average two
g
touches as the prior art did because of
p
limitations in terms of the configuration of
g
the electrodes and processing technology, that
p
sort of thing, correct?
g,
A. I don't believe I saw any discussion
y
of averaging with respect to being a problem in
g g
that regard.
g
Q. Okay. And if we talk about a second
Q
y
category or class of detection devices, those
g y
,
that suffer from shadowing, y would agree,
g, you
g
wouldn't you, that Perski doesn't suffer from
y ,
the shadowing problem of that second category
gp
or class of touchscreen devices, does it?
,
A. You are talking about the scanning,
g
g,
the node by node scanning version, not the
y
g
,
version that actually groups nodes?
Q. Yes, right.
Q
, g
A. Because the grouping one does suffer
g p g

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from it. But the node-by-node scanning one
y
g
would not suffer from the shadowing behavior.
MR. DeFRANCO: One moment, Your Honor.
I am trying to avoid the confidential record.
JUDGE ESSEX: I understand.
MR. DeFRANCO: Your Honor, with that,
I am going to finish with the
cross-examination -- conclude
cross-examination.
JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
MS. KATTAN: I have no questions, Your
Honor.
MR. FERGUSON: Your Honor, it might
make sense if we take our lunch break now. I
think that would speed up the redirect. And
that would also then allow the recross to occur
right after my redirect and we can take it all
in one shot. Get it done quicker.
JUDGE ESSEX: All right. That makes
some sense.
Doctor, we're going to go to recess.
Again, let me remind you to discuss anything
you want, other than your testimony and the
matters contained in your report.
All right. We're in recess. We will

Page 1570

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Page 1569

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be back in an hour, about ten until 1:00.
(Whereupon, at 11:49 a.m., a lunch
recess was taken.)

AFTERNOON SESSION
(12:50 p.m.)
JUDGE ESSEX: All right. Are we
ready?
MR. FERGUSON: We are, Your Honor.
JUDGE ESSEX: All right. Back on the
record. Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FERGUSON:
Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Subramanian.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. I would like to start with claim 1 of
the '607 patent, JX-2. And you touched on the
preamble of claim 1 several times during your
cross-examination. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. I would like to start by breaking down
some of the elements in the preamble, so,
Chris, could we start with a transparent
capacitive sensing medium. Great.
First of all, can you just briefly
explain what your opinion is with respect to
what that means?
A. Certainly. With respect to this
portion of the preamble, the words transparent
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capacitive sensing medium indicate that the
touch panel that we're talking about will
comprise something that is transparent and it
is going to use capacitive sensing.
So those are two requirements of a
system that would implement claim 1.
Q. Okay. And now, Chris, let's go and
highlight in a different color "detect multiple
touches or near touches that occur at a same
time and at distinct locations in a plane of
the touch panel."
And, again, can you explain your
opinion with respect to what that claim
language means?
A. Certainly. This claim language says,
firstly, that we have to be able to detect
multiple, which means more than one touches or
near touches. And those touches would occur at
the same time and be in distinct locations on
the plane of the touch panel.
Now, what does that mean by distinct
locations in a plane of the touch panel? That
means we are able to detect when the touches
are made in different locations on the plane of
the touch panel.

35 (Pages 1568 to 1571)

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