Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1382

Unredacted Exhibits to Arnold Declaration ISO Samsung's MSJ ( by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, (Dkt. Nos. 930, 944, 945) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 20 to Arnold, # 2 Exhibit 23 to Arnold, # 3 Exhibit 31 to Arnold, # 4 Exhibit 36 to Arnold, # 5 Exhibit 38 to Arnold, # 6 Exhibit 39 to Arnold, # 7 Exhibit 40 to Arnold, # 8 Exhibit 41 to Arnold, # 9 Exhibit 42 to Arnold, # 10 Exhibit 43 to Arnold, # 11 Exhibit 44 to Arnold)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/26/2012) Modified text on 7/27/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT 39

Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

Page 1
1
2
3
4

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION
APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

5

Plaintiff,

Case No.

6

vs.

11-CV-01846-LHK

7

8

9

10

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
a Korean business entity;
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,
INC., a New York corporation;
SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS
AMERICA, LLC, a Delaware
limited liability company,

11

Defendants.
12
13
14
15

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

16
17
18
19

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RICHARD HOWARTH
San Francisco, California
Monday, October 31, 2011

20
21
22
23
24
25

REPORTED BY:
CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
JOB NO. 43007
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Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

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1

tablet designs that you worked on there for Apple.

2

Is there -- is there an area that, on the

3

front face of the tablet computer devices that you

4

worked on, that you understood to include a border

5

or mask area?

6
7

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

compound.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Could you repeat the question?

10
11

MR. ZELLER:

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Yes.

If you could read it

back, please.

12

(Whereupon the reporter read the record

13

as follows:

14

"Question:

15

front face of the tablet computer devices

16

that you worked on, that you understood

17

to include a border or mask area?")

18

MR. MONACH:

19

Is there an area that, on the

And I objected; vague and

compound.

20

THE WITNESS:

Sometimes some people refer

21

to -- or I refer to the area around the display as

22

a border.

23

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

Q.

But in general, you don't think that

those terms are precise enough or clear enough
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1

that you could be -- you'd be able to say it's

2

really definite; right?

3
4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

ambiguous.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

people think.

7

I don't know what other

BY MR. ZELLER:

8
9

Q.

Well, I'm not asking about what other

people think.

10

I'm asking you.

Do you think that the word "border" or

11

"mask" is a clear term to you as to what it is

12

referring to in the context of tablet computer

13

designs that Apple has made?

14

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

15

ambiguous, both a compound and incomplete

16

hypothetical.

17
18
19

THE WITNESS:

It could be.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm going to show you what was previously

20

marked as Exhibit 8, which for the record is

21

United States Design Patent 504,889.

22
23
24
25

And please let me know when you've had an
opportunity to review the '889 design patent.
A.

(Witness reviewing document.)
Okay.
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Q.

2

design?

3

A.

4

You're named as an inventor of the '889

I was one of the industrial design team

that worked on this product.

5

Q.

Looking at the drawings, these figures

6

that are in the '889 design patent, do any of

7

those drawings show what you, in your view --

8

well, I'm sorry.

9
10

Directing your attention to the figures
and drawings in the '889 design patent.

11
12

Let me rephrase it.

Do any of those drawings show a mask
area?

13

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

14

foundation.

15

calls for a legal conclusion by a nonlawyer

16

witness.

17
18
19

Objection; compound.

THE WITNESS:

Objection;

I'm not a patent lawyer.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm not asking you as a patent lawyer.

20

I'm asking you as an inventor of the '889 design

21

patent.

22
23
24
25

Do any of the drawings or figures in the
'889 design patent depict a mask area?
MR. MONACH:

Same objection; lack of

foundation -TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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THE WITNESS:

2

MR. MONACH:

3

Lack of foundation.

4

As -Hang on a second.
Objection, to the

extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

5

THE WITNESS:

As an industrial designer,

6

and not a patent lawyer, it isn't clear to me that

7

there is an area here that is definitely a mask or

8

border.

9

BY MR. ZELLER:

10

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 1.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

You'll see that on the interior of

13

Figure 1, that there is a rectangular line.

14

Do you see that?

15

A.

I see a dotted line.

16

Q.

Do you know, is that -- is that a broken

17

line?

18

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

19

foundation.

20

document speaks for itself.

21

Under the Best Evidence Rule the

THE WITNESS:

22

line.

23

Vague.

It looks like a dotted

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

It looks like an inconsistent dotted line.

Q.

Do you know why it's in that form?

you have an understanding?
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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Do

Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

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1
2

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

foundation.

3

And let me just caution you.

I'm not

4

saying you did have any such communications, but I

5

don't want you, in answering any of these

6

questions, to reveal any attorney-client

7

communications.

8
9
10
11

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

I'm not exactly sure

what that rectangle is depicting.
BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Do you know if that dotted line that you

12

were talking about that's in that rectangular

13

shape on the interior of Figure 1 has some

14

relationship to separating the active area of the

15

display from the mask or nonactive areas of the

16

display?

17

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

18

foundation, calls for speculation.

19

extent it's asking for a legal conclusion.

20

THE WITNESS:

21

I'm not sure what that line

represents.

22

Object, to the

BY MR. ZELLER:

23

Q.

And I take it you don't have an

24

understanding as to whether or not that particular

25

line, this rectangular line on the interior of
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1

Figure 1 that's dotted, is part of the claimed

2

design here?

3

MR. MONACH:

4

foundation.

5

Objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

6

Objection, to the extent it calls for

THE WITNESS:

7

represents.

8

I'm not sure what that line

BY MR. ZELLER:

9
10

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 2 of

the '889 design patent.

11
12

You'll see that there are three sets of
diagonal lines on the interior of this.

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And then directing your attention to

15

Figure 4.

16
17

You'll see that it doesn't have those
diagonal lines.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

Do you see that?

20

A.

Yes, I see that.

21

Q.

Do you have any understanding or

22

explanation as to why those diagonal lines don't

23

appear in Figure 4 but they do appear in Figure 2?

24
25

MR. MONACH:
foundation.

Objection; lack of

Objection, to the extent it calls for
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1

a legal conclusion.

2

THE WITNESS:

I'm not sure why those

3

lines are in one view and not in another.

4

BY MR. ZELLER:

5

Q.

Do you know if the design that's shown

6

here in the '889 design patent is showing a back

7

surface or bottom surface that is flat and clear?

8
9
10

MR. MONACH:
foundation.

Same objection; lack of

Object, to the extent it calls for a

legal conclusion.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

depicting.

13

I'm not sure what that is

BY MR. ZELLER:

14

Q.

Is the design that's shown here in the

15

'889 design patent, by your understanding, does

16

it -- well, I'm sorry.

17
18
19

Let me rephrase that.

Directing your attention to the '889
design patent.
In your view, as an inventor and a

20

designer, does this design show a clear front

21

surface of the device?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

foundation.

24

Objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

25

Objection, to the extent it calls for

You can give your understanding, if you
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1

the device that's shown there is -- from the

2

orientation of the individual holding it -- is

3

somewhat wedge-shaped, or it tapers?

4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; mischaracterizes

5

the evidence, assumes facts not in evidence,

6

argumentative.

7

BY MR. ZELLER:

8

Q.

9
10

Do you see that?
MR. MONACH:

Object, to the extent it

calls for a legal conclusion.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

to.

13

I see what you're referring

BY MR. ZELLER

14
15

I see it's an object that the guy is holding.

Q.

Well, from the perspective of the guy

whose holding it --

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

-- how would you describe the shape of

18

the top of the device?

19

A.

20

What -MR. MONACH:

21

ambiguous.

22

Objection; vague and

legal conclusion.

23

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

24

as "the top"?

25

What are you referring to

//
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1
2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

The top, from the orientation of the

individual holding it, which would be your right.

4

MR. MONACH:

5

Objection;

vague.

6

Objection.

BY MR. ZELLER:

7

Q.

If you could hand me your copy.

8

A.

Okay.

9

MR. ZELLER:

Let's please mark as Exhibit

10

1132 a copy of the '889 design patent with a

11

marking that I'm about to give it.

12

arrow consisting of an X on Figure 9, and then two

13

arrows with the Figure X, Label X, in Figure 2.

It will be an

14

(Deposition Exhibit 1132 was marked for

15

identification)

16

BY MR. ZELLER:

17

Q.

So directing your attention to Figure 2.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

You'll see that what I did there is, I

20

put two arrows with the Label X on there.

21

A.

Mm-hmm.

22

Q.

And you'll see that those portions, those

23
24
25

sides, appear to taper, or narrow?
MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

question as mischaracterizing the evidence;
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assumes facts not in evidence.

2

THE WITNESS:

To me, it looks like a

3

slightly perspective drawing of a rectangular

4

object.

5

BY MR. ZELLER:

6

Q.

Do you have an understanding as to

7

whether or not those lines taper because of

8

perspective or because the design that is being

9

communicated here has tapering sides?

10

A.

I couldn't say for certain.

To me

11

personally, as an industrial designer, it looks to

12

me like they're tapering because of perspective.

13

Q.

14

perspective?

15
16

And in your view, is that an accurate

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

ambiguous.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

accurate perspective.

19

that's what was intended.

20

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

I don't know about an
It looks, perhaps, like

And if I asked you the same questions

22

about that edge that I labeled as X in Figure 9,

23

you'd give me the same answers?

24

MR. MONACH:

25

calls for a legal conclusion.

Objection, to the extent it

TSG Reporting - Worldwide

But you can give
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2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

And from your perspective, is that -- is

that an accurate depiction of perspective?

4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

5

foundation, incomplete hypothetical.

6

vague.

7
8
9

THE WITNESS:

Objection;

Yes, it could be.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Can you say with any certainty if it is?

10

MR. MONACH:

11

THE WITNESS:

Same objection.
I can't say with any

12

certainty without -- whether that's an absolutely

13

accurate perspective view.

14

looks possible.

15

BY MR. ZELLER:

16

Q.

But it looks okay.

It

You'll see also in Figure 9 that there is

17

a portion of it that has a thicker, darker line

18

that runs around the perimeter of the front.

19

Do you see that?

20

A.

Yes, I see that.

21

Q.

What does that depict?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

foundation.

24

Objection; lack of

legal conclusion.

25

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

It's unclear to me exactly

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1

what that is trying to depict.

2

BY MR. ZELLER:

3

Q.

4

Does it depict a gap or a groove?
MR. MONACH:

5

foundation.

6

Same objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

7

Objection, to the extent it calls for

THE WITNESS:

I'm not sure what that

8

precise detail is trying to depict.

9

like the separation between two parts to me.

But it looks
Not

10

the separation; it looks like the joint between

11

two parts.

12

BY MR. ZELLER:

13

Q.

And directing your attention to Figure 1,

14

you'll see that also at least on part of the

15

perimeter of this front surface there is a darker

16

line there as well, darker, thicker line?

17

A.

I see that.

18

Q.

And do you have an understanding as to

19

what that's depicting?

20

MR. MONACH:

21

foundation.

22

Objection; lack of

legal conclusion.

23

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

I couldn't tell you exactly

24

what that's trying to depict.

25

//
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1
2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Is that darker, thicker line depicting a

gap or a groove?

4
5

MR. MONACH:

Same objection.

Lack of

foundation, calls for a legal conclusion.

6

THE WITNESS:

In my opinion as an

7

industrial designer, it doesn't look like that's

8

trying to depict a groove or a gap.

9

it's perhaps trying to show a radius or an

10

intersection of the rear housing, perhaps.

11

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

But you're not certain?

13
14

MR. MONACH:

17

Same objection.

Asked and

answered.

15
16

It looks like

THE WITNESS:

I'm not certain.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

You'll see that the date of this design

18

patent for filing -- and this is on the first

19

page --

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

-- in the middle of the first column,

22

March 17th, 2004.

23

Do you see that date there?

24

A.

Yes, I do.

25

Q.

Prior to March 17th, 2004, which is the
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1

filing date of the '889 design patent, the Apple

2

design team was working on tablet computer devices

3

that had a gap or groove that ran on the perimeter

4

of the front of the device?

5
6

MR. MONACH:

Lack of

foundation.

7
8

Object to form.

THE WITNESS:

I don't recall.

BY MR. ZELLER:

9

Q.

You just don't recall one way or another?

10

A.

I don't recall.

11

Q.

Do you recall models that were shown

12

there internally at Apple during the time periods

13

when designers were working on the tablet

14

computers that had gaps or grooves on them?

15
16

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague, lack of

foundation.

17

THE WITNESS:

There might have been.

18

don't recall precisely.

19

I

BY MR. ZELLER:

20
21

Q.

Do you recall generally that occurring at

some him point?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

THE WITNESS:

24
25

Same objection.
It might have been.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Let me try something a different way.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

Page 1
1
2
3
4

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION
APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

5

Plaintiff,

Case No.

6

vs.

11-CV-01846-LHK

7

8

9

10

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
a Korean business entity;
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,
INC., a New York corporation;
SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS
AMERICA, LLC, a Delaware
limited liability company,

11

Defendants.
12
13
14
15

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

16
17
18
19

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RICHARD HOWARTH
San Francisco, California
Monday, October 31, 2011

20
21
22
23
24
25

REPORTED BY:
CYNTHIA MANNING, CSR No. 7645, CLR, CCRR
JOB NO. 43007
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

877-702-9580

Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

Page 91
1

tablet designs that you worked on there for Apple.

2

Is there -- is there an area that, on the

3

front face of the tablet computer devices that you

4

worked on, that you understood to include a border

5

or mask area?

6
7

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

compound.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Could you repeat the question?

10
11

MR. ZELLER:

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Yes.

If you could read it

back, please.

12

(Whereupon the reporter read the record

13

as follows:

14

"Question:

15

front face of the tablet computer devices

16

that you worked on, that you understood

17

to include a border or mask area?")

18

MR. MONACH:

19

Is there an area that, on the

And I objected; vague and

compound.

20

THE WITNESS:

Sometimes some people refer

21

to -- or I refer to the area around the display as

22

a border.

23

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

Q.

But in general, you don't think that

those terms are precise enough or clear enough
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Page 92
1

that you could be -- you'd be able to say it's

2

really definite; right?

3
4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

ambiguous.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

people think.

7

I don't know what other

BY MR. ZELLER:

8
9

Q.

Well, I'm not asking about what other

people think.

10

I'm asking you.

Do you think that the word "border" or

11

"mask" is a clear term to you as to what it is

12

referring to in the context of tablet computer

13

designs that Apple has made?

14

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

15

ambiguous, both a compound and incomplete

16

hypothetical.

17
18
19

THE WITNESS:

It could be.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm going to show you what was previously

20

marked as Exhibit 8, which for the record is

21

United States Design Patent 504,889.

22
23
24
25

And please let me know when you've had an
opportunity to review the '889 design patent.
A.

(Witness reviewing document.)
Okay.
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1

Q.

2

design?

3

A.

4

You're named as an inventor of the '889

I was one of the industrial design team

that worked on this product.

5

Q.

Looking at the drawings, these figures

6

that are in the '889 design patent, do any of

7

those drawings show what you, in your view --

8

well, I'm sorry.

9
10

Directing your attention to the figures
and drawings in the '889 design patent.

11
12

Let me rephrase it.

Do any of those drawings show a mask
area?

13

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

14

foundation.

15

calls for a legal conclusion by a nonlawyer

16

witness.

17
18
19

Objection; compound.

THE WITNESS:

Objection;

I'm not a patent lawyer.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm not asking you as a patent lawyer.

20

I'm asking you as an inventor of the '889 design

21

patent.

22
23
24
25

Do any of the drawings or figures in the
'889 design patent depict a mask area?
MR. MONACH:

Same objection; lack of

foundation -TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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1

THE WITNESS:

2

MR. MONACH:

3

Lack of foundation.

4

As -Hang on a second.
Objection, to the

extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

5

THE WITNESS:

As an industrial designer,

6

and not a patent lawyer, it isn't clear to me that

7

there is an area here that is definitely a mask or

8

border.

9

BY MR. ZELLER:

10

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 1.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

You'll see that on the interior of

13

Figure 1, that there is a rectangular line.

14

Do you see that?

15

A.

I see a dotted line.

16

Q.

Do you know, is that -- is that a broken

17

line?

18

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

19

foundation.

20

document speaks for itself.

21

Under the Best Evidence Rule the

THE WITNESS:

22

line.

23

Vague.

It looks like a dotted

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

It looks like an inconsistent dotted line.

Q.

Do you know why it's in that form?

you have an understanding?
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

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1
2

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

foundation.

3

And let me just caution you.

I'm not

4

saying you did have any such communications, but I

5

don't want you, in answering any of these

6

questions, to reveal any attorney-client

7

communications.

8
9
10
11

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

I'm not exactly sure

what that rectangle is depicting.
BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Do you know if that dotted line that you

12

were talking about that's in that rectangular

13

shape on the interior of Figure 1 has some

14

relationship to separating the active area of the

15

display from the mask or nonactive areas of the

16

display?

17

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

18

foundation, calls for speculation.

19

extent it's asking for a legal conclusion.

20

THE WITNESS:

21

I'm not sure what that line

represents.

22

Object, to the

BY MR. ZELLER:

23

Q.

And I take it you don't have an

24

understanding as to whether or not that particular

25

line, this rectangular line on the interior of
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Figure 1 that's dotted, is part of the claimed

2

design here?

3

MR. MONACH:

4

foundation.

5

Objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

6

Objection, to the extent it calls for

THE WITNESS:

7

represents.

8

I'm not sure what that line

BY MR. ZELLER:

9
10

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 2 of

the '889 design patent.

11
12

You'll see that there are three sets of
diagonal lines on the interior of this.

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And then directing your attention to

15

Figure 4.

16
17

You'll see that it doesn't have those
diagonal lines.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

Do you see that?

20

A.

Yes, I see that.

21

Q.

Do you have any understanding or

22

explanation as to why those diagonal lines don't

23

appear in Figure 4 but they do appear in Figure 2?

24
25

MR. MONACH:
foundation.

Objection; lack of

Objection, to the extent it calls for
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a legal conclusion.

2

THE WITNESS:

I'm not sure why those

3

lines are in one view and not in another.

4

BY MR. ZELLER:

5

Q.

Do you know if the design that's shown

6

here in the '889 design patent is showing a back

7

surface or bottom surface that is flat and clear?

8
9
10

MR. MONACH:
foundation.

Same objection; lack of

Object, to the extent it calls for a

legal conclusion.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

depicting.

13

I'm not sure what that is

BY MR. ZELLER:

14

Q.

Is the design that's shown here in the

15

'889 design patent, by your understanding, does

16

it -- well, I'm sorry.

17
18
19

Let me rephrase that.

Directing your attention to the '889
design patent.
In your view, as an inventor and a

20

designer, does this design show a clear front

21

surface of the device?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

foundation.

24

Objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

25

Objection, to the extent it calls for

You can give your understanding, if you
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have one.

2

THE WITNESS:

I'm not exactly sure what

3

this document -- what this figure is showing.

4

could be.

5

BY MR. ZELLER:

6

Q.

It

And you're not sure one way or another

7

whether what's shown here in the design shows a

8

clear, flat, continuous surface on the front?

9
10

MR. MONACH:

Objection, to the extent it

calls for a legal conclusion.

11

THE WITNESS:

I didn't create these

12

drawings, so I don't know if that's what that is

13

supposed to represent.

14

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

And even apart from the fact that you

16

didn't create the drawings, you still don't know;

17

is that true?

18

MR. MONACH:

Same objection.

Object, to

19

the extent it calls for a legal conclusion; asked

20

and answered.

21

THE WITNESS:

It isn't completely clear

22

to me that that's what that is representing.

23

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 9.
You'll see in Figure 9 that the top of
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the device that's shown there is -- from the

2

orientation of the individual holding it -- is

3

somewhat wedge-shaped, or it tapers?

4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; mischaracterizes

5

the evidence, assumes facts not in evidence,

6

argumentative.

7

BY MR. ZELLER:

8

Q.

9
10

Do you see that?
MR. MONACH:

Object, to the extent it

calls for a legal conclusion.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

to.

13

I see what you're referring

BY MR. ZELLER

14
15

I see it's an object that the guy is holding.

Q.

Well, from the perspective of the guy

whose holding it --

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

-- how would you describe the shape of

18

the top of the device?

19

A.

20

What -MR. MONACH:

21

ambiguous.

22

Objection; vague and

legal conclusion.

23

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

24

as "the top"?

25

What are you referring to

//
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2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

The top, from the orientation of the

individual holding it, which would be your right.

4

MR. MONACH:

5

Objection;

vague.

6

Objection.

BY MR. ZELLER:

7

Q.

If you could hand me your copy.

8

A.

Okay.

9

MR. ZELLER:

Let's please mark as Exhibit

10

1132 a copy of the '889 design patent with a

11

marking that I'm about to give it.

12

arrow consisting of an X on Figure 9, and then two

13

arrows with the Figure X, Label X, in Figure 2.

It will be an

14

(Deposition Exhibit 1132 was marked for

15

identification)

16

BY MR. ZELLER:

17

Q.

So directing your attention to Figure 2.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

You'll see that what I did there is, I

20

put two arrows with the Label X on there.

21

A.

Mm-hmm.

22

Q.

And you'll see that those portions, those

23
24
25

sides, appear to taper, or narrow?
MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

question as mischaracterizing the evidence;
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assumes facts not in evidence.

2

THE WITNESS:

To me, it looks like a

3

slightly perspective drawing of a rectangular

4

object.

5

BY MR. ZELLER:

6

Q.

Do you have an understanding as to

7

whether or not those lines taper because of

8

perspective or because the design that is being

9

communicated here has tapering sides?

10

A.

I couldn't say for certain.

To me

11

personally, as an industrial designer, it looks to

12

me like they're tapering because of perspective.

13

Q.

14

perspective?

15
16

And in your view, is that an accurate

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

ambiguous.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

accurate perspective.

19

that's what was intended.

20

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

I don't know about an
It looks, perhaps, like

And if I asked you the same questions

22

about that edge that I labeled as X in Figure 9,

23

you'd give me the same answers?

24

MR. MONACH:

25

calls for a legal conclusion.

Objection, to the extent it

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your understanding.

2

THE WITNESS:

My understanding is that's

3

what that is trying to represent.

4

BY MR. ZELLER:

5
6

Q.

It is perspective, but you're not

certain?

7
8

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

question.

9

THE WITNESS:

10

what that represents.

11

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

It's possible that that's

But, again, you can't say with certainty

13

whether or not that's -- that tapering is because

14

of perspective, as opposed to whether or not the

15

design is actually showing that there is some kind

16

of tapering?

17

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

18

foundation.

19

a legal conclusion; asked and answered.

Objection, to the extent it calls for

20

You can do it again.

21

THE WITNESS:

In my opinion, as an

22

industrial designer and not a patent lawyer, I

23

think that that looks like it is an object with

24

perspective and not a tapering geometry.

25

//
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2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

And from your perspective, is that -- is

that an accurate depiction of perspective?

4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

5

foundation, incomplete hypothetical.

6

vague.

7
8
9

THE WITNESS:

Objection;

Yes, it could be.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Can you say with any certainty if it is?

10

MR. MONACH:

11

THE WITNESS:

Same objection.
I can't say with any

12

certainty without -- whether that's an absolutely

13

accurate perspective view.

14

looks possible.

15

BY MR. ZELLER:

16

Q.

But it looks okay.

It

You'll see also in Figure 9 that there is

17

a portion of it that has a thicker, darker line

18

that runs around the perimeter of the front.

19

Do you see that?

20

A.

Yes, I see that.

21

Q.

What does that depict?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

foundation.

24

Objection; lack of

legal conclusion.

25

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

It's unclear to me exactly

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what that is trying to depict.

2

BY MR. ZELLER:

3

Q.

4

Does it depict a gap or a groove?
MR. MONACH:

5

foundation.

6

Same objection; lack of

a legal conclusion.

7

Objection, to the extent it calls for

THE WITNESS:

I'm not sure what that

8

precise detail is trying to depict.

9

like the separation between two parts to me.

But it looks
Not

10

the separation; it looks like the joint between

11

two parts.

12

BY MR. ZELLER:

13

Q.

And directing your attention to Figure 1,

14

you'll see that also at least on part of the

15

perimeter of this front surface there is a darker

16

line there as well, darker, thicker line?

17

A.

I see that.

18

Q.

And do you have an understanding as to

19

what that's depicting?

20

MR. MONACH:

21

foundation.

22

Objection; lack of

legal conclusion.

23

Object, to the extent it calls for a

THE WITNESS:

I couldn't tell you exactly

24

what that's trying to depict.

25

//
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2
3

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Is that darker, thicker line depicting a

gap or a groove?

4
5

MR. MONACH:

Same objection.

Lack of

foundation, calls for a legal conclusion.

6

THE WITNESS:

In my opinion as an

7

industrial designer, it doesn't look like that's

8

trying to depict a groove or a gap.

9

it's perhaps trying to show a radius or an

10

intersection of the rear housing, perhaps.

11

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

But you're not certain?

13
14

MR. MONACH:

17

Same objection.

Asked and

answered.

15
16

It looks like

THE WITNESS:

I'm not certain.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

You'll see that the date of this design

18

patent for filing -- and this is on the first

19

page --

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

-- in the middle of the first column,

22

March 17th, 2004.

23

Do you see that date there?

24

A.

Yes, I do.

25

Q.

Prior to March 17th, 2004, which is the
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filing date of the '889 design patent, the Apple

2

design team was working on tablet computer devices

3

that had a gap or groove that ran on the perimeter

4

of the front of the device?

5
6

MR. MONACH:

Lack of

foundation.

7
8

Object to form.

THE WITNESS:

I don't recall.

BY MR. ZELLER:

9

Q.

You just don't recall one way or another?

10

A.

I don't recall.

11

Q.

Do you recall models that were shown

12

there internally at Apple during the time periods

13

when designers were working on the tablet

14

computers that had gaps or grooves on them?

15
16

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague, lack of

foundation.

17

THE WITNESS:

There might have been.

18

don't recall precisely.

19

I

BY MR. ZELLER:

20
21

Q.

Do you recall generally that occurring at

some him point?

22

MR. MONACH:

23

THE WITNESS:

24
25

Same objection.
It might have been.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Let me try something a different way.
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Do you recall any tablet mockups that

2

were made there at Apple that had a gap or a

3

groove that ran the perimeter of the front surface

4

and then had vents in that gap or groove?

5

MR. MONACH:

6

THE WITNESS:

7
8
9

I don't know.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

And for the record, the word I'm using is

vents, V-E-N-T-S.

10
11

Objection; vague.

MR. ZELLER:
mockup.

Maybe we could see the

That would be helpful.

12

MS. TIERNEY:

13

MR. MONACH:

14

When you're done with this, maybe we

15
16
17

Absolutely.
Sure.

should take a lunch break.
MR. ZELLER:

Sure.

We'll just wrap up

this line and show him the model and take a break.

18

(Pause in the proceedings)

19

MR. ZELLER:

20

And for the record, Apple's counsel has

Thank you.

21

provided me with three physical mockups.

22

first one I'm going to show the witness is a

23

mockup of a tablet computer that has the bottom,

24

the depiction of a -- people generally call 30-pin

25

connector.

And the

Also, aside port in the form of a hole
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that has over it a small icon depicting

2

headphones.

3

BY MR. ZELLER

4

Q.

5

And I'll hand that mockup to you.
And if you could do me a tremendous

6

favor, if you could hold that up for the camera,

7

too, so we'll have a depiction of it.

8

A.

(Witness complies.)

9

Q.

And could you also show the sides with

10

the ports.

11

A.

(Witness complies.)

12

Q.

Thank you.

13

And then there's some writing on the back

14

on the label.

15

that for the record for us.

And if you could, please just read

16

A.

"Apple proto 035."

17

Q.

And first let me ask you, with respect to

18

the model that you have in your hands, had you

19

seen that before?

20

MR. MONACH:

Instruct the witness not to

21

answer with respect to any communications you had

22

with counsel in connection with the deposition or

23

any other communications with counsel.

24
25

But if you have a recollection of seeing
it independently or a recollection that you don't,
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you can answer.

2

THE WITNESS:

3

maybe.

4

I think so, a long time ago

BY MR. ZELLER:

5

Q.

Generally speaking, do you recognize the

6

mockup that you have there in front of you as a

7

mockup of an Apple tablet computer design that you

8

saw during the course of your work there at Apple

9

as a designer?

10
11

MR. MONACH:
answered.

12
13

Objection; asked and

THE WITNESS:

It could well be.

BY MR. ZELLER:

14

Q.

Is that your recollection?

15

A.

It looks like a prototype we could have

16

made.

17

BY MR. ZELLER:

18

Q.

Do you have any reason to doubt that

19

that's a prototype that Apple made as part of the

20

design project working on a tablet computer?

21

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

22

question as argumentative.

23

for speculation, in light of the prior testimony.

24
25

THE WITNESS:

Objection; may call

Yeah, it could be.

//
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BY MR. ZELLER:

2

Q.

You'll see that there's a gap, or a

3

groove, that runs the perimeter of the front

4

there.

5

A.

6

Mm-hmm.

7

MR. MONACH:
question.

8
9
10

Object to the form of the

THE WITNESS:
something here, a gap.

I do see that there's
I see that.

BY MR. ZELLER:

11

Q.

And then if you look inside that opening,

12

you'll see something that appears to be the

13

depiction of vents or some kind of openings?

14
15

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

question.

16

THE WITNESS:

I see some sort of

17

detailing of something down there.

18

BY MR. ZELLER:

19

Q.

Do you know what that detailing is?

20

A.

I don't.

21

Q.

Did you yourself have involvement in the

I couldn't be sure.

22

creation of that mockup that you have in front of

23

you?

24

MR. MONACH:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection; vague.
I can't remember.

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2

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Did you contribute anything to the design

3

of the tablet computer mockup that you have in

4

front of you?

5

MR. MONACH:

6

THE WITNESS:

7

design team, perhaps.

8

remember.

9

what I might have contributed to this particular

Objection; vague.
As part of the industrial
We could -- I can't

I can't recall exactly at this minute

10

mockup.

11

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

Is the mockup that you have in your

13

hands, is that the same design that's shown in the

14

'889 design patent?

15

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

16

foundation, vague.

17

for a legal conclusion.

18

Object, to the extent it calls

THE WITNESS:

In my opinion, it doesn't

19

appear to be the same -- the same object that's

20

listed in this patent.

21

BY MR. ZELLER:

22

Q.

And why do you think it's different?

23

A.

Well, I see a number of differences.

24
25

I don't see this detailing that you're
referring to around the outside perimeter.
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2

The radii in the corners seem lightly
different between the patent and this mockup.

3

The proportions of the object are -- I'm

4

not exactly sure what the proportions in this

5

document are.

6

So there seem to be a number of

7

differences.

8

Q.

9

And all that leads you to conclude that

it's a different design?

10

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

11

question as vague and ambiguous.

12

extent it's calling for a legal conclusion about

13

the scope of the patented design.

14

THE WITNESS:

Object, to the

I'm not exactly sure.

15

don't believe that this is the product that is

16

being covered by this.

17

I

BY MR. ZELLER:

18

Q.

It could be.

And when you say "this product," just for

19

the record to be clear, you're pointing to the

20

mockup that you have in front of you?

21

A.

This particular prototype, I'm not sure.

22

I can't be certain that this -- it doesn't look to

23

me like this patent is the same object as this

24

mockup.

25

Q.

But you're not certain one way or
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another?

2

MR. MONACH:

3

answered, lack of foundation.

4

extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection; asked and

6

That's correct.

I'm not

certain.

7

Object, to the

BY MR. ZELLER:

8
9

Q.

I'm going to show you what was previously

marked as Exhibit 841.

10

A.

Mm-hmm.

11

Q.

And please let me know when you've had an

12

opportunity to review those pages.

13

A.

14

(Witness reviewing document.)
Okay.

15

Q.

I take it generally speaking, at some

16

point, you became aware that there was a dispute

17

between Apple and Samsung, a legal dispute?

18
19

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

question as vague.

20

In answering this question, I'll instruct

21

the witness not to reveal any attorney-client

22

communications.

23

THE WITNESS:

24

was -- when I first found out.

25

//

I can't remember when I

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BY MR. ZELLER:

2

Q.

Right.

I'm not quite at that question

3

yet.

4

generally.

5

the questions I'm going to ask.

I'm just trying to understand something
It's to help put some time periods on

6

A.

Okay.

7

Q.

So at some point, did you become aware

8

that there was a lawsuit between Apple and

9

Samsung, just generally speaking?

10
11

MR. MONACH:

yes, no, or I don't recall.

12
13

You can answer that question

THE WITNESS:

At some point, yes.

BY MR. ZELLER:

14

Q.

Now, prior to the time that you became

15

aware that there was a lawsuit between Samsung and

16

Apple, had you seen these pages that were marked

17

as Exhibit 841 before that time?

18

A.

I don't recall.

19

Q.

Do you recognize what's depicted here in

20

Exhibit 841?

21
22

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

ambiguous.

23

THE WITNESS:

I'm not -- I'm not clear on

24

what this -- on what's depicted in these pages.

25

//
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inventors here on the '889 design patent, that the

2

design that's shown here in the '889 design patent

3

is the design of the first iPad?

4

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

5

ambiguous.

6

conclusion about the scope of the '889.

7

Objection; lacking in foundation, in light of the

8

prior testimony; asked and answered.

9

Objection; calls for a legal

THE WITNESS:

I'm not an expert in

10

reading patent drawings, so I couldn't tell you if

11

this represents the exact design of the iPad that

12

was launched.

13

BY MR. ZELLER:

14
15

Q.

My question is a very specific one.

I'd

appreciate if you'd answer it.

16

Do you need it read back?

17

MR. MONACH:

Is that a question to the

19

MR. ZELLER:

Yes.

20

MR. MONACH:

Objection; asked and

18

21
22

witness?

answered.

Object to the argumentative commentary.
The question was asked and answered.

23

calls for a legal conclusion about the scope of

24

the patent.

25

you're just badgering him.

It

The witness gave his answer and now

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Object that it's vague.

2

lacking in foundation.

3

Object that it's

answered.

Object that it's asked and

4

Do you have anything else to add?

5

MR. ZELLER:

6

to answer?

7
8

MR. MONACH:

No, I am not.

Did you hear

me instruct him not to answer?

9
10

Are you instructing him not

MR. ZELLER:

Well, you're interrupting my

questioning.

11

MR. MONACH:

No, I'm objecting to your

12

badging of the witness and characterizing his

13

response because, apparently, you don't care for

14

it, so you keep asking him the same question over

15

and over.

16

MR. ZELLER:

Let the record reflect that

17

counsel directed a question to the witness.

18

BY MR. ZELLER

19

Q.

Do you believe, as one of the named

20

inventors here on the '889 design patent -- I'm

21

not asking you as an expert, but as a named

22

inventor -- that the design that's shown here in

23

the '889 patent is the design of the first iPad?

24
25

MR. MONACH:
answered.

Objection; asked and

Objection; vague.
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in foundation.

2

calls for a legal conclusion.

3

And objection, to the extent it

THE WITNESS:

In my opinion, I cannot be

4

certain that this -- that the design of -- that

5

this document here represents the exact design of

6

the iPad 1.

7

BY MR. ZELLER:

8
9

Q.

Again, I didn't ask about the, quote,

exact same design.

10

You see that there's a design that's

11

reflected here in the '889 design patent that

12

you're identified as one of the people who

13

invented it; right?

14

A.

I am.

15

Q.

And so my question is:

In your view, as

16

a named inventor on the '889 design patent, do you

17

think that the iPad has this design that's shown

18

here in the '889 design patent, or do you think

19

it's a different design?

20

MR. MONACH:

21

ambiguous.

22

a legal conclusion.

23

foundation.

Objection; vague and

24
25

Objection, to the extent it calls for
Objection; lacking in

Objection; asked and answered.

THE WITNESS:

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I'm not -- I'm really not a patent reading expert.

2

BY MR. ZELLER:

3

Q.

Do you have anything else to add to your

4

answers to my questions on the comparison between

5

the iPad design and the '889 design patent?

6

A.

No.

7

Q.

Directing your attention to the design in

8

the '889 design patent, is this the design of the

9

iPad2?

10

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

11

ambiguous.

12

a legal conclusion from a nonlawyer witness.

Objection, to the extent it calls for

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. MONACH:

15

Go ahead.

16

THE WITNESS:

I'm not -Lack of foundation.

Sorry.
I'm not a patent reading

17

expert, so it is makes it difficult to answer your

18

question.

19

BY MR. ZELLER:

20

Q.

Do you believe that, in order for someone

21

to understand the design that's shown here in the

22

'889 design patent, that one would have to be a

23

patent expert?

24
25

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague.

Objection; calls for speculation, incomplete
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hypothetical.

2

THE WITNESS:

3

take.

4

I don't know what it would

BY MR. ZELLER:

5
6

Q.

Well, is the design that's shown here in

the '889 patent understandable to you?

7

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

8

ambiguous.

9

for a legal conclusion.

10
11

Objection, to the extent it's calling

THE WITNESS:

Not completely.

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

13

do you mean?

14

A.

And when you say "not completely," what

I'm not a patent lawyer.

I'm not a

15

patent reading expert.

16

about this that I can say seem different to me

17

than the final design of the iPad.

18

Q.

So to me, there are things

And again, as I've been telling you, I'm

19

not asking you an expert.

20

someone who is named as an inventor on this

21

design.

22

I'm asking you as

Please tell me what parts of the design

23

that's shown in this '889 design patent is not

24

completely understandable to you.

25

MR. MONACH:

Object --

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BY MR. ZELLER:

2

Q.

3

perspective.

4

I'm talking about your own individual

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

5

question as vague and ambiguous.

6

extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

7

THE WITNESS:

Object, to the

I find it hard to translate

8

these drawings, as an individual.

9

BY MR. ZELLER:

10
11

Q.

And what is it about the drawings that

make it not possible for you to translate them?

12

MR. MONACH:

13

the prior testimony.

14

Objection; mischaracterizes

THE WITNESS:

That I work with 3D objects

15

usually, and two-dimensional drawings are a little

16

bit harder to understand for me.

17

BY MR. ZELLER:

18

Q.

Well, setting aside that this is what we

19

have to work with, in terms of a design patent,

20

are these two-dimensional drawings, are there --

21

let me ask it this way.

22

Again, I'm not asking you as an expert.

23

I'm not asking you as patent law or anything else.

24

I'm just asking you, as your own personal

25

understanding when you look at these drawings, do
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you feel like you completely understand the design

2

that is being communicated through these drawings,

3

or does it seem uncertain to you in certain

4

respects?

5

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague and

6

ambiguous.

7

incorporates or asks for a legal conclusion.

8
9
10

Objection, to the extent it

THE WITNESS:
BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Other parts don't seem clear to you?

11

MR. MONACH:

12

THE WITNESS:

13
14

Some parts seem clear.

Same objection.
Yes.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

And what parts are you referring to that

15

don't seem clear to you?

16

about your own individual perspective.

17

MR. MONACH:

18

THE WITNESS:

Again, we're talk solely

Same objection.
Well, I'm not sure what

19

these lines represent (indicating).

20

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

And what figure are you pointing to?

22

A.

Figure 6.

23

Q.

And you're referring to the -- those

24

lines that run horizontally from the perspective

25

of the viewer, or the reader?
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2

A.

Just those that -- couple of those ones

in particular.

3

Q.

Are there other portions of the design

4

shown in the '889 design patent that aren't clear

5

to you?

6
7

Again, we're talking totally about your
own individual perspective.

8

MR. MONACH:

9

THE WITNESS:

Same objections.
From my perspective, I

10

can -- yes, it doesn't seem like this is exactly

11

the same as the iPad which is what your question

12

was, the iPad 1.

13

BY MR. ZELLER:

14
15

Q.

Well, I'm asking a slightly different

question at this point.

16

You had mentioned, with respect to Figure

17

6, some lines that you thought were unclear to

18

you.

19

Are there other aspects of the design

20

that's shown here, other than what we've talked

21

about, that you think is unclear?

22

MR. MONACH:

Objection; vague.

23

Objection, to the extent it calls for a legal

24

conclusion or incorporates legal terms.

25

THE WITNESS:

It seems -- seems like what

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I'm looking at in these drawings is a housing

2

coming around, one-piece housing coming around to

3

a piece of glass.

4

these drawings.

5

BY MR. ZELLER:

6

Q.

That's what I interpret from

But you're not sure about that?

7

MR. MONACH:

8

question; asked and answered.

9

THE WITNESS:

10

That's what it looks like

to me.

11

Object to the form of the

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

But are you certain that's the design

13

that's being communicated here, or are you just

14

telling me that that's how it seems to you?

15
16

MR. MONACH:
question.

Object to the form of the

It's badgering the witness.

17

You've asked him to give his own opinion,

18

and now when he gives it, you seem to be objecting

19

to his own opinion.

20
21
22

MR. ZELLER:

I'm asking him how certain

he is that that's what the design is.
MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

23

question as vague, asked and answered.

24

the extent you're incorporating a legal term or

25

legal conclusion.
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BY MR. ZELLER:

2

Q.

You can go ahead and answer.

3

A.

That's how it appears to me, judging from

4
5
6

these drawings.
Q.

And how certain are you that that's what

the drawings show?

7

MR. MONACH:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

but it appears that way to me.

10
11

Objection; vague.
I'm not absolutely certain,

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

To go back to the question I was asking,

12

other than what we've talked about, are there

13

other aspects of what's shown here in the '889

14

design that are unclear to you personally?

15
16

MR. MONACH:

question for the reasons previously stated.

17
18
19

Object to the form of the

THE WITNESS:

Not really.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 6,

20

you'll see that there is the circular form there

21

on the right-hand side, from the perspective of

22

the person looking at it.

23

Do you see that?

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

What is that?
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A.

2

It's --

3

MR. MONACH:
question.

4
5
6

Object to the form of the

THE WITNESS:

It looks like a circle.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

7

What's it depict?
MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

8

question as vague and ambiguous.

9

extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

10

THE WITNESS:

Object, to the

11

it's trying to depict.

12

I'm not exactly sure what

BY MR. ZELLER:

13

Q.

Do you have any idea what it is?

14

MR. MONACH:

15

THE WITNESS:

16
17

Same objection.
Not for certain.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm not asking for certain.

I'm asking:

18

Do you have any understanding as to what that

19

circle depicts?

20

MR. MONACH:

21

You can answer.

22

THE WITNESS:

Same objections as before.

I'm not sure what that

23

circular -- what that circle is depicting.

24

BY MR. ZELLER:

25

Q.

Is that circle being presented with
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broken lines?

2

MR. MONACH:

Objection; lack of

3

foundation.

4

for a legal conclusion.

5

Evidence Rule.

6

And object, to the extent it calls

THE WITNESS:

Objection under the Best

I don't know.

It looks

7

like there's -- it looks like there's a line and

8

some dotted lines or dots around it.

9

BY MR. ZELLER:

10

Q.

Does the design that's showing here in

11

the '889 design patent -- let me step back for a

12

moment.

13

Do you see here on the first page the

14

phrase -- this is under "description" -- where it

15

says, "The broken lines being shown for

16

illustrative purposes only and form no part of the

17

claimed design."

18

Do you see that?

19

MR. MONACH:

Object to the reading of

20

only a portion of the sentence which says,

21

"Figure 9 is an exemplary diagram of the use of

22

the electronic device thereof, the broken lines

23

being shown for illustrative purposes only and

24

form no part of the claimed design."

25

//
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BY MR. ZELLER:

2

Q.

Do you see that part?

3

A.

I do.

"Figure 9 is an exemplary diagram

4

of the use of the electronic device thereof, the

5

broken lines being shown for illustrative purposes

6

only form no part of the claimed design."

7

Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 6.

8
9

Okay.

Is that circle being shown as broken
lines?

10

MR. MONACH:

Objection under the Best

11

Evidence Rule, that the document is the best

12

evidence of whether the lines are broken or not.

13
14
15

THE WITNESS:
BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Directing your attention to Figure 8.

16
17

I can't say for certain.

You'll see in the center there, there is
a smaller rectangular shape.

18

Do you see that?

19

A.

Right.

20

Q.

Do you see that?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

What's that depict?

23

MR. MONACH:

24

question.

25

Object to the form of the

legal conclusion.

Object, to the extent it calls for a

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THE WITNESS:

2

depicting.

3

I'm not sure what it's

BY MR. ZELLER:

4

Q.

Are those broken lines?

5
6

MR. MONACH:
Rule.

Objection; vague.

7
8
9

THE WITNESS:

Q.

Do you consider those to be broken lines?
MR. MONACH:

14

Object to the form of the

question.

12
13

They look like dots to me.

BY MR. ZELLER:

10
11

Objection; Best Evidence

THE WITNESS:

They look like dots to me.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

15

Do you consider dots to be broken lines?
MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

16

question.

17

a legal conclusion; lacks foundation.

18

And object, to the extent it calls for

THE WITNESS:

19

by "broken lines."

20

I'm not sure what you mean

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

You see the words "broken lines" that are

22

used under the description heading that we talked

23

about on the first page?

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

Do you know what broken lines means in
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this context, or have any understanding as to what

2

it means?

3

A.

Sometimes it can mean there's a dashed

4

line, dot-dash, dot-dash.

5

different things.

6

Q.

"Broken" can be

So then specifically, with respect to

7

that smaller rectangular shape there in Figure

8

8 --

9

A.

Right.

10

Q.

-- are those broken lines that are being

11

shown for illustrative purposes only and form no

12

part of the claimed design, as you understand

13

those terms, as you understand this drawing?

14

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

15

question as vague, lacking in foundation, and,

16

plainly, just calling for a legal conclusion.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

trying to represent.

19

patent drawings.

20

I don't know what they're

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

I'm not an expert at reading

Do you have any understanding in that

22

regard as an inventor, a named inventor, of the

23

'889 design patent?

24
25

MR. MONACH:

Same objections; asked and

answered.
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THE WITNESS:

I was an inventor of the

2

product, not the patent drawing.

3

BY MR. ZELLER:

4

Q.

Setting aside -- because I'm not asking

5

you as an expert, again.

6

have been about how you understand these.

7

All my questions here

Do you have an understanding as to

8

whether that -- what you call those dotted lines

9

for that rectangular area in Figure 8 is the same

10

as these broken lines that form no part of the

11

claim design or are they something different?

12

MR. MONACH:

Objection; asked and

13

answered, vague, lack of foundation, calls for a

14

legal conclusion.

15
16

THE WITNESS:

those dotted lines mean.

17
18

MR. ZELLER:

Okay.

Let's take a few

minutes.

19
20

I'm not exactly sure what

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

We're off the record

at 6:51 p.m.

21

(Recess taken)

22

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

23

record at 7:07 -- 7:03 p.m.

24
25

We are back on the

You may proceed.
//
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2

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

I'm going to show you what's previously

3

marked as Exhibit 6, which is a copy of United

4

States Design Patent 593,087.

5
6
7

Can you let us know when you've had a
chance to look at the '087 design patent.
A.

8
9
10

(Witness reviewing document.)
Okay.

Q.

Do you recognize the '087 design patent

as a patent that you're a named inventor on?

11

A.

Yeah, looks like it.

12

Q.

What, from your perspective as an

13

inventor of the design that's shown here on the

14

'087 design patent, was new or original about this

15

design?

16

MR. MONACH:

Object to the form of the

17

question as vague, lacking in foundation, and

18

incorporating or requesting a legal conclusion.

19

THE WITNESS:

20

iPhone?

21

What was new about the

BY MR. ZELLER:

22

Q.

What was new about this patent?

What was new and original about the

23

design that's shown here in these drawings that

24

make up the '087 design patent?

25

MR. MONACH:

Same objection.

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