Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 589

CLAIM CONSTRUCTION STATEMENT Samsung's Opening Claim Construction Brief (Unredacted Version) filed by Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd.. (Attachments: #1 Exhibit Briggs Declaration and Ex. A-F in support of Samsung's Opening Claim Construction Brief, #2 Exhibit Briggs Declaration Ex. G-I, #3 Declaration Wesel Declaration in Support of Samsung's Proposed Claim Construction for US Patent No. 7,200,792, #4 Declaration Cole Declaration in Support of Samsung's Proposed Claim Construction for US Patent No. 7,698,711, #5 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 1, #6 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 2, #7 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 3, #8 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 4, #9 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 5, #10 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 6, #11 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 7A-7G, #12 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 8, #13 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 9A-9C, #14 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 10, #15 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 11, #16 Exhibit Cole Decl. Ex. 12)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 1/6/2012)

1 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
Charles K. Verhoeven (Bar No. 170151)
2
[e-mail]
50 California Street, 22nd Floor
3 San Francisco, California 94111
Telephone:
[phone]
4 Facsimile:
[phone]
5 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
Kevin P.B. Johnson (Bar No. 177129)
6
[e-mail]
Victoria F. Maroulis (Bar No. 202603)
7
[e-mail]
555 Twin Dolphin Drive, 5th Floor
8 Redwood Shores, California 94065-2139
Telephone:
[phone]
9 Facsimile:
[phone]
10 QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
Michael T. Zeller (Bar No. 196417)
11
[e-mail]
865 S. Figueroa St., 10th Floor
12 Los Angeles, California 90017
Telephone:
[phone]
13 Facsimile:
[phone]
14 Attorneys for SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
LTD., SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,
15 INC. and SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC
16
17

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

18

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA, SAN JOSE DIVISION

19
20 APPLE INC., a California corporation,

CASE NO. 11-cv-01846-LHK

21

DECLARATION OF TODD M. BRIGGS
IN SUPPORT OF SAMSUNG'S OPENING
CLAIM CONSTRUCTION BRIEF

22

Plaintiff,
vs.

23 SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., a
Korean business entity; SAMSUNG
24 ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., a New
York corporation; SAMSUNG
25 TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,
LLC, a Delaware limited liability company,
26
Defendant.
27

Date: January 20, 2012
Time: 10:00 am
Place: Courtroom 8, 4th Floor
Judge: Hon. Lucy H. Koh
SUBMITTED UNDER SEAL

28
02198.51845/4499114.1

Case No. 11-cv-01846-LHK
DECLARATION OF TODD M. BRIGGS IN SUPPORT OF SAMSUNG'S OPENING CLAIM CONSTRUCTION
BRIEF

1

I, Todd M. Briggs, declare as follows:

2

1.

I am an associate with the law firm of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP

3 and counsel for defendants and counter-claimants Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung
4 Electronics America, Inc., and Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC (collectively,
5 “Samsung”). I submit this declaration in support of Samsung’s Opening Claim Construction
6 Brief. I am personally familiar with and knowledgeable about the facts stated in this declaration
7 and if called upon could and would testify competently as to the statements made herein.
8

1.

Attached hereto as Exhibit A is a true and correct copy of certain excerpts from the

9 Deposition of Hun-Kee Kim, Rough Transcript, dated November 30, 2011.
10

2.

Attached hereto as Exhibit B is a true and correct copy of SAMNDCA0013600, an

11 online article from Yonhap News describing the selection of SMP technology by the 3GPP
12 standards setting body. Also attached is a certified translation from Korean to English.
13

3.

Attached hereto as Exhibit C is a true and correct copy of “Samsung Electronics’

14 Asynchronous IMT-2000 Technology Adopted as International Standard Specification,”
15 September 20, 2002, an online news article from iNews24.com. Also attached is a certified
16 translation from Korean to English.
17

4.

Attached hereto as Exhibit D is a true and correct copy of certain excerpts from the

18 Deposition of Richard D. Gitlin, dated December 6, 2011.
19

5.

Attached hereto as Exhibit E is a true and correct copy of certain excerpts of

20 Gitlin, Hayes and Weinstein, DATA COMMUNICATIONS PRINCIPLES, Kluwer Academic/Plenum
21 Publishers (1992).
22

6.

Attached hereto as Exhibit F is a true and correct copy of certain excerpts from the

23 Deposition of Tony Givargis, dated December 6, 2011.
24

I hereby declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the

25 foregoing is true and correct.
26
27
28
02198.51845/4499114.1

Case No. 11-cv-01846-LHK
DECLARATION OF TODD M. BRIGGS IN SUPPORT OF SAMSUNG'S OPENING CLAIM CONSTRUCTION
BRIEF

-2-

1 DATED: December 8, 2011
2
3
4
5
6
7

QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART &
SULLIVAN, LLP

By /s/ Todd M. Briggs
Todd M. Briggs
Attorneys for Defendants/Counter-Claimants
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC.
and SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS
AMERICA, LLC

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02198.51845/4499114.1

Case No. 11-cv-01846-LHK
DECLARATION OF TODD M. BRIGGS IN SUPPORT OF SAMSUNG'S OPENING CLAIM CONSTRUCTION
BRIEF

-3-

1
2

General Order 45 Attestation
I, Victoria F. Maroulis, am the ECF user whose ID and password are being used to file this

3 Declaration. In compliance with General Order 45(X)(B), I hereby attest that Melissa N. Chan has
4 concurred in this filing.
5

/s/ Victoria Maroulis

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02198.51845/4499114.1

Case No. 11-cv-01846-LHK
DECLARATION OF TODD M. BRIGGS IN SUPPORT OF SAMSUNG'S OPENING CLAIM CONSTRUCTION
BRIEF

-4-

Exhibit A

4495085_1_11-30-11 Kim, Hun Kee - ROUGH.TXT

1

UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT

2

This draft is unedited and

3

uncertified and may contain untranslated

4

stenographic symbols, an occasional reporter's note,

5

a misspelled proper name, and or nonsensical word

6

combinations.

7

the final certified transcript, which will be

8

delivered to you in accordance with our standard

9

delivery terms.

All such entries will be corrected on

Because of the need to correct

10

entries prior to certification, this draft is only

11

for the purpose of augmenting counsel's notes and

12

not for use in any court proceeding or for

13

distribution to any other parties.

14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
[phone]
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
1

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

))))))Here begins

Page 1

4495085_1_11-30-11 Kim, Hun Kee - ROUGH.TXT
MR. BRIGGS: In-house counsel.

5
6
7

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Merrill Corporation.

8
9

The court reporter, will you please swear
in the witness?

10
11

So Corey Anderson of

Will you please swear in the interpreters
first?

12

JEESOO JUNG

13

being called as an interpreter, was first duly sworn

14

to translate English to Korean and Korean to English

15

the testimony of the following witness:

16

SUE MI JONES

17

being called as a check interpreter, was first duly

18

sworn to translate English to Korean and Korean to

19

English the testimony of the following witness:

20

HUN KEE KIM, Ph.D.

21

having been first duly sworn through the

22

English-Korean interpreter, testified as follows:

23

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Please begin.

24
25
8
[phone]
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
1

EXAMINATION

2

BY MR. KOLOVOS:

3

Q.

Good morning, Dr. Kim.

4

A.

Good morning.

5

Q.

We were introduced earlier.

But for the

6

record, my name is Peter Kolovos, I am counsel for

7

Apple.

And I am -- thank you for coming here to be
Page 3

4495085_1_11-30-11 Kim, Hun Kee - ROUGH.TXT
A.
I don't quite recall.

17
18
19

CHECK INTERPRETER:

I cannot recall that

at all.

20

BY MR. KOLOVOS:

21

Q.

Just to be clear, and I don't want to

22

know, I don't want to know what you did a couple

23

months ago.

24

But in your answer you said you submitted

25

some relevant documents to the IP team a few months
54
[phone]
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

1

ago.

2

team with respect to this litigation with Apple?

3

Was that work that was done helping the IP

A.

I don't know whether it is related, but I

4

was asked to provide materials, if any, that are

5

related to this by the IP team.

6

Q.

Okay.

My question is about anything you

7

did in 2000 or 2001, or for that matter 2002.

8

you remember providing any documents to the IP team

9

in connection with the patent application for the

10
11
12

Do

'792 patent other than a patent application?
A.

As to that, I don't quite recall because

it was such a long time ago.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

I don't recall.

15

Q.

For any of your patent applications that

16

you have been involved in, have you ever provided

17

research articles to the IP team?

18
19

A.
time ago.

I'm not quite sure because it was a long
But technical documents involving SMP
Page 45

20

4495085_1_11-30-11 Kim, Hun Kee - ROUGH.TXT
that were submitted to the 3GPP was -- were

21

provided, and I think there were some articles

22

related to SMP technology after the technology was

23

adopted by the 3GPP.

24
25

So I think, you know, they have those kind
of articles and that kind of information.
55
[phone]
HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

1

CHECK INTERPRETER:

I'm not quite sure

2

because it was a long time ago.

3

documents involving SMP that was submitted to the

4

3GPP likely provided to IP team and also was after

5

our SMP technology was adopted by 3GPP standard,

6

there were several articles in Korean major

7

newspapers.

8
9

But some technical

So I can only think that they probably
have them.

10

THE WITNESS:

But I'm not quite sure

11

whether they kept those -- that kind of information

12

for a specific purpose or not.

13
14
15

I'm not quite sure.

BY MR. KOLOVOS:
Q.

Well, do you recall providing 3GPP

technical documents about SMP to the IP team?

16

MR. BRIGGS:

17

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague.
As I mentioned earlier, a

18

few months ago I was asked to provide relevant

19

documents, so I provided them.

20
21
22

BY MR. KOLOVOS:
Q.

And my question is whether you provided

them to the IP team in 2000, 2001, or 2002, at the
Page 46

Exhibit B

CERTIFICATION OF TRANSLATION

I certify that the Korean to English translation of the Korean internet newspaper article entitled
SAMNDCA00146000 is an accurate and complete rendering of the contents of the source document to the
best of my knowledge and ability. I further certify that I am a qualified professional translator familiar
with both languages with more than ten years of experience in Korean to English translation of various
legal, technical or business documents including a number of legal evidentiary documents submitted to
various courts in the United States.
Date: December 6, 2011

____________________________
Alex N. Jo, Translator

Samsung Electronics’IMT-2000 Asynchronous Technology Adopted as
International Standard
(Seoul = Associated Press) Reported by Bum Soo Kim = Samsung Electronics announced on
March 20 that its ‘SMP’ technology, which is an IMT-2000 asynchronous connectivity mode
developed in-house, was adopted as the international standard technology at the 3GPP (3rd
Generation Project Group) meeting recently held by the International Telecommunication
Technology Association (TTA) at Shilla Hotel.
Samsung Electronics’ SMP (Symbol Mapping based on Priority) is a technology that minimizes
error caused by noise. Thus enabling implementation of high-speed data transmission.
Samsung Electronics said, “In the course of IMT-2000 standardization process, we have emerged
as a leader group company along with some other companies such as Qualcomm and Nokia,
which enables us to preemptively secure an advantageous position in the next generation mobile
communications business.”
[e-mail]

(The End)

Sent on March 20, 2002 11:00

Exhibit C

삼성전자의 비동기 IMT-2000 기술, 국제표준 규격으로 채택

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ㆍ'맥가이버 칼' 빅토리녹스, 가방라인 ...

삼성전자의 비동기 IMT-2000 기술, 국제표준 규
격으로 채택

ㆍ문화부-구글, 손잡고 한류 열풍 이끈다
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ㆍ"꿈 때문에 못 자?"…수면 강박관념이 ...
ㆍ'패셔너블하게, 보온성은 기본' 내의시...

삼성전자의 'SMP(Symbol Mapping based on Priority)'기술이 곧 국제통신연맹(ITU)의 국제
표준 규격으로 정식 채택될 예정이다.
삼성전자는 지난주 신라호텔에서 세계 20여개국 400여명의 정보통신 기술 관계자가 참석한
가운데 정보통신기술협회(TTA) 주관으로 열린 '3세대 프로젝트그룹(3GPP)'회의에서 삼성전
자의 'SMP'기술이 국제 IMT-2000 비동기식 기술규격 표준으로 최종 채택돼 국제 표준기술
이 됐다고 20일 발표했다.
이번에 국제 표준이 된 삼성전자의 'SMP'기술은 잡음에 의한 오차를 최소화함으로써 고속
데이터 전송이 가능한 기술로, IMT-2000 비동기 방식의 핵심기술이다. 이동통신 시스템과
단말기간의 통화 및 데이터 전송시 잡음을 줄임으로써 통신 품질을 향상시킬 뿐 아니라 더
많은 가입자들이 동시에 사용할 수 있다는 것.
삼성전자 관계자는 "삼성의 SMP기술은 신뢰도가 각기 다른 정보비트간의 상관관계를 분석
해 정보비트는 신뢰도가 높은 위치로 배열시키고 잉여비트는 상대적으로 신뢰도가 낮은 위
치에 배열시키는 방법으로 데이터 패킷의 전송 오류를 줄이는 기능을 한다"고 밝혔다.
한편, 삼성은 IMT-2000표준화 과정에서 다수의 표준을 확보함으로써 퀄컴, 노키아 등과 함
께 선두그룹의 위치에 올랐다.

신용 카드 한도 초과 안내 메일로
위장한 악성코드 유포

삼성전자는 "국제 표준으로 채택된 기술력을 바탕으로 차세대 이동통신 사업에 유리한 고지
를 확보하게 됐을 뿐 아니라 상당한 기술 수입효과도 거둘 수 있을 것으로 기대한다"고 설명
했다.

[펄스-K] 4배 빠른 '4G LTE' 소셜
의 마음도 빠르게 움직였나?

말리부 트렁크 종결자. 참으로 넓
나.

윤휘종기자 [e-mail]

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44사이즈의 로망..폭풍감량확인!!

성인용품 사용하는 K씨는 변태??
잠만자고 4주만에 -48kg 쫘~악 뺐어요
똥, 짧고 굵고 강하게 싸는 방법은?
임플란트, 최소비용으로 평생 쓴다?
남편과 잠자리, 느끼질 못한다면
내아이만 키가 작은 결정적 원인은?
[속보] "삼성화재 연금" 인기, 왜?
파격적으로 감량한다 7일이면 15kg?

전품목할인

男性확대술

명품가방~

http://news.inews24.com/php/news_view.php?g_serial=60106&g_menu=020300

11/29/2011

삼성전자의 비동기 IMT-2000 기술, 국제표준 규격으로 채택

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[박재덕의 턴]'강용석 해프닝' 일단...

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[박계현]넥슨 해킹사고와 '두마리토...
[KISTI의 과학향기]삼각팬티도 특허...

☞ 그랜저 에쿠스 A급 중고차 급매물 반값초특가

프리미엄/정보
[11. 29]세계 스마트폰 시장 지형도...

☞ [속보] 82kg주부 4주만에 48kg폭탄감량
☞ [이슈] 불티나게 팔리는 "서울대의자" 3일 만에 매진

[통계뉴스] 징가 소셜게임 '캐슬빌' ...
[11. 28]미국 블랙프라이데이 '엄청...
[통계뉴스] 미국 이동통신 시장 현황

비즈 링크
농구황제 우지원 192cm키성장 비법

주식투자로 10억 아파트 장만했다~!!

불티나게 팔리는 "서울대의자" 3일 만에 매진

로또1등 75회적중 명당! 어디야?

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[11. 24]그림으로 보는 삼성 vs 애플...

82kg주부 4주만에 48kg폭탄감량
[Ã⵿Ư°ø´ë]Ãß¾ïÀÇ µå¶ó¸¶, ÀÌÁ¦´...

오늘의 주요 뉴스
한나라당, '홍준표 체제' 당분간 유지
김진표 "종편 출범, 그들만의 잔치될 것"
410g 초경량…에이서, 태블릿 무게 종결자 출시

홈 l IT/시사 l 연예/스포츠 l 엠톡 l 게임 l 오피니언

[¸¸È¾Ö´Ï][ÄÜÅÙÃ÷ Á÷¾÷ Ž¹æ±â] ...
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NHN '네이버 툴바'에서 메모·공유 기능 활용

애플의 혁신을 이끌었던 스티브 잡
스가 세상을 떠났습니다. 이에 따
라 잡스 없는 애플이 IT 시장의 주
도권을 계속 잡을 수 있을지에 관
심이 쏠리고 있습니다. 여러분들은
어떻게 생각하십니까?

하...
오버추어코리아, 11번가 검색광고 재계약 체결

박주영 '68분 출전'…아스널 8강서 무릎

네이버재팬 모바일메신저 '라인' 상승세 탔다

김동률 "이승환 '다만', 사랑 고백 위해 만든 곡"

한컴 '씽크프리 모바일', 방통위원장상 수상

뼈가 없어서 임플란트를 못하십니까?
톱스타 신은경 7일만에 파격 15kg??
강남 엄마들이 아이에게 사주는 이것!
잠만자고 4주만에 -48kg 뺐어요
비만여성들이 환장하는 바로 이거?

기모티셔츠

'윈도우7 태블릿' 1주일간 50%! 너무따뜻

어딜가도
주목받는

하루 1알로 매달 평균 5cm 더 큰다?
[속보] 당일완성 임플란트가 8만원?
뒤가더예뻐 스테디셀러
리본니트
예쁜아우

청담며느리 명품스타일
코디노하
트위드자

편하고예뻐 은근히섹시
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베우파어

기업비즈
야상점퍼가 심플한자켓
나름섹시

그냥막이
몸짱 연예인 곽현화 변비로 고생하다...

여자들이 싫어하는 0순위
지금 바로 보안전문가에 도전하라!

디자인작살 MLB직수입
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완전섹시
“나는 한류 Seller다” 지마켓, 중...

지마켓, ‘2011 웨딩&리빙 페어’ 개...

http://news.inews24.com/php/news_view.php?g_serial=60106&g_menu=020300

11/29/2011

삼성전자의 비동기 IMT-2000 기술, 국제표준 규격으로 채택

Page 3 of 3

즐거운세상, 조이뉴스24

@inews24com
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http://news.inews24.com/php/news_view.php?g_serial=60106&g_menu=020300

11/29/2011

CERTIFICATION OF TRANSLATION

I certify that the Korean to English translation of the Korean internet newspaper article entitled newsinews24-com is an accurate and complete rendering of the contents of the source document to the best of
my knowledge and ability. I further certify that I am a qualified professional translator familiar with both
languages with more than ten years of experience in Korean to English translation of various legal,
technical or business documents including a number of legal evidentiary documents submitted to various
courts in the United States.
Date: December 6, 2011

_____________________________
Alex N. Jo, Translator

Samsung Electronics’ Asynchronous IMT-2000 Technology Adopted as
International Standard Specification
Entered at15:32, September 20, 2002
[Exclusive] Developed a solar power Smartphone battery that “lasts 15 days with 1-time charge”

Soon, Samsung Electronics’SMP (Symbol Mapping based on Priority) technology is slated to be
formally adopted as an international standard specification of the International
Telecommunication Union (ITU).
The Telecommunications Technology Association (TTA) held a ‘3rd Generation Project Group
(3GPP)’ meeting at Shilla Hotel last week with about 400 attendees in the field of information
communications technology from 20 or so countries. Samsung Electronics announced on March
20 that its own ‘SMP’ technology became an international standard technology after it was
finally selected as a standard specification for the IMT-2000 asynchronous technology at the
meeting.
Samsung Electronics’‘SMP’ technology which just became the international standard is the
technology that minimizes error caused by noise, thus enabling a high-speed data transmission. It
is the core asynchronous technology in the IMT-2000. This technology improves communication
quality by reducing noise during a telephone call between a mobile communications system and
a user terminal as well as during data transmission, and also supports a greater number of
concurrent users.
A person affiliated with Samsung Electronics says, “Samsung’s SMP technology analyzes the
correlation among the information bits with different degrees of reliability, thus arraying
"information bits" in a position of higher reliability, and arraying "excess bits" in a position of
lower reliability. This method plays a role of reducing data packet transmission error.”
Meanwhile, with its numerous technologies adopted as standards in the course of IMT-2000
standardization, Samsung emerged as one of the leading [standards] companies along with some
other companies such as Qualcomm and Nokia.
Samsung Electronics said, “We came to secure an advantageous position in the next generation
mobile communications business based on our technological prowess selected as international
standards. Also, we expect to gain considerable income associated with our technologies.”
Reported by Hwi Jong Yoon [e-mail]

Exhibit D

Page 1
1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

2
3
4

APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

5

Plaintiff,
Case No.:
11-cv-01846-LHK

6

vs.

7

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., a
Korean business entity; SAMSUNG
ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., a
New York corporation; SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC,
a Delaware limited liability
company,

8
9
10
11

Defendants.
_________________________________/

12
13

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF RICHARD D. GITLIN, Sc.D.
14

Taken on Behalf of the Defendants
15
16

DATE TAKEN:

Tuesday, December 6, 2011

TIME:

9:06 a.m. - 3:26 p.m.

PLACE:

Embassy Suites Downtown Tampa
513 South Florida Avenue
Tampa, Florida

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Stenographically Reported by:
Donna L. Peterson
Registered Diplomate Reporter
Certified Realtime Reporter
JOB NO: 44339

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 2
1

APPEARANCES:

2
3
4
5

Counsel for Plaintiff:
PETER J. KOLOVOS, ESQUIRE
WilmerHale
60 State Street
Boston, Massachusetts 02109

6
7
8
9

Counsel for Defendants:
TODD M. BRIGGS, ESQUIRE
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan
555 Twin Dolphin Drive
Redwood Shores, California 94065

10
11
12

Also Present:
Thomas Hallahan, videographer

13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 4
1
2

P R O C E E D I N G S
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Good morning, ladies and

3

gentlemen.

Today's date is Tuesday, December the

4

6th, 2011.

The time is approximately 9:06 a.m.

5

name is Thomas Hallahan; I'm the videographer.

6

court reporter is Donna Peterson.

7

My
The

We are present at the Embassy Suites, 513 South

8

Florida Avenue, Tampa, Florida.

9

the purpose of taking the deposition of

We're here for

10

Dr. Richard D. Gitlin.

11

the United States District Court, Northern District

12

of California, San Jose Division, case entitled

13

Apple Incorporated versus Samsung Electronics

14

Company, Limited, et al.

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

The case is instituted in

I will now ask the attorneys to introduce
themselves, starting with the noticing attorney.
MR. BRIGGS:

Todd Briggs from Quinn Emanuel for

Samsung.
MR. KOLOVOS:

Peter Kolovos of Wilmer Cutler

Pickler Hale and Dorr for Apple.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Would the court please swear

in the witness.
RICHARD D. GITLIN, Sc.D., called as a witness

24

by the Defendants, having been first duly sworn,

25

testified as follows:

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 5
1

THE WITNESS:

2
3

Yes, I do.

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BRIGGS:

4

Q.

Good morning, Dr. Gitlin.

5

A.

Good morning.

6

Q.

Can you state your name for the record?

7

A.

Richard Gitlin.

8

Q.

And where do you live?

9

A.

Just down the road in here, Tampa, 415 Knights

10

Run Avenue, Tampa.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

We've -- this is my fourth academic year.

13

How long have you lived in Tampa?
We

also have a residence in New Jersey.

14

Q.

How long did you live in New Jersey?

15

A.

About 40 years.

16

Q.

How many times have you been deposed?

17

A.

As an expert or including as a fact witness?

18

Q.

How about both.

19

A.

Somewhere between 15 and 20.

20

Q.

How many times as an expert witness?

21

A.

This is probably about my 10th, 12th time.

22

Q.

When was the most recent deposition you had?

23

A.

I think this lady was handling my most recent

24
25

one.

That was in the spring of this year.
Q.

Okay.

And what case was that for?

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 11
1

respect to that HSDPA patent in the InterDigital versus

2

Samsung case?

3
4
5
6

A.

Similarly, that validity -- both sides, and

infringement.
Q.

So you wrote a report stating that or opining

that Samsung infringed that HSDPA patent?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And you also wrote a report opining that that

9
10

HSDA (sic) patent was valid?
A.

Yes.

There were, I mean, there were reports,

11

plural.

12

with supplementary reports and -- in that case.

13

then the cases were -- you know, the first case was

14

part -- was -- everything I did in the first case was

15

part of the second case.

16

seven or eight reports that I was the author of.

17
18

Q.

They were -- they went back and forth in this,
And

So by the end, I think I had

Do you -- do you remember the number of the

patent in that case, that you were working on?

19

A.

I -- I don't want to guess.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

I'm sure you could find it out.

22

Q.

What did the technology in that case -- or in

23
24
25

No.

that patent involve, at a little bit lower level?
A.

It dealt with the control channel for HSDPA.
I can tell you a little more if you --

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 12
1

Q.

Yeah.

2

A.

It dealt with a -- the patent dealt with a

3

mechanism for signaling on the channel in a -- with a

4

minimum use of bits.

5

In fact now, when I teach my wireless course, I use that

6

as an example of a clever way to achieve a function.

It was a clever way of doing this.

7

Q.

Now, is HSDPA part of any standards?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

What -- what standard or standards?

10

A.

Well, it's in the 3GPP family.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

that that patent was essential to the 3GPP standard?

13
14
15
16
17
18

Do you know if InterDigital believed

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection.

I believe that the -- that that -- that would

be a fair statement, yes.
Q.

So do you know what it means for a patent to be

essential to a standard?
A.

I think I have a rough understanding, not a

19

legal understanding, but a rough engineering

20

understanding, an expert witness understanding.

21
22
23

Q.

What's -- what's your understanding, you know,

as an expert witness?
A.

That to -- that to build a piece of equipment

24

that's compliant with the standard, you necessarily

25

infringe the patent.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 13
1

Q.

Now, in your expert report in that case, did

2

you take that position that this patent was essential to

3

the 3GPP standard?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Have you ever done any work for Samsung?

6

A.

No.

7

Q.

Other than this case, have you ever done any

8

work for Apple?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

So this is the first time you've been retained

11

by Apple?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Has Apple retained you only in its lawsuit

14

against Samsung, or are you also working in other cases

15

Apple has?

16

A.

17

Apple.

18

Q.

Have you ever done any work for HTC?

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

As far as I know, this is what I'm doing for

Have you ever done any work for

Motorola?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

Okay.

24

A.

No.

25

Q.

And you're not currently retained by Apple to

Have you ever done any work for Google?

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 55
1

input bits from some source.

2

encoder.

3

or encoder.

4

systematic bits, and P bits are the parity bits.

5

the S bits are the actual input to the channel encoder,

6

the output of the CRC generator.

And the 120 is the channel

Here it's a -- understood to be a turbo coder,
And it produces S bits, which are
And

7

And the parity bits are generated by the shift

8

registers inside the turbo encoder, shift registers and

9

other elements.

And the rate matcher is a -- is a

10

device which will either puncture or eliminate bits or

11

repeat bits to match the output rate to the available

12

transmission capacity.

13

Bless you.

14

The -- so an interleaver is a common device in

15

wireless systems because wireless -- most codes are

16

designed to provide very good performance in random

17

channel areas that are come -- that come randomly.

18

Wireless systems have a different property.

19

bursty errors.

20

you're moving and you are in a fade, when you have,

21

let's say, a low received signal level.

22

likely to make errors in a bunch, in a burst.

23

They have

And they have bursty errors because when

So you're more

And so an interleaver is a clever device that,

24

for example -- it could be done many ways, but similar

25

to what's described in the patent.

You read bits into

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 56
1

a -- you think of a matrix.

2

and you read -- and you read them alpha transmission in

3

a column.

4

whole column was errored, then viewed from the -- and it

5

in the first column, then at the receiver viewed from

6

the viewpoint of each row, you just have one bit in

7

error, and the code will be able to correct that.

8

That's the simple -- that's the very simple explanation.

9

The interleavers in -- in the patent are much more

10
11

You read bits into a row,

So, for example, if you had a burst where a

sophisticated than that.
And then the -- and so the -- the notion of the

12

interleaver is that from the viewpoint of the receiver,

13

which is not shown in Figure 1 -- this is a

14

transmitter -- is you -- you turn the phenomenon of a

15

physically bursty error mechanism in a wireless channel

16

to a -- as processed by the receiver, independent errors

17

spread out over a long time.

18

interleaved over time.

19

So the errors tend to be

And so -- and the bit stream at the output of

20

element 140 goes into a modulator.

21

that a mapper, bit mapper.

22

levels of modulation I described, this would be --

23

that's the first one.

24

use of the term.

25

call that a symbol mapper or a mapper, bit-to-symbol

And I would call

So that's -- in the three

And I think that's a nonstandard

I'd -- I would say most people would

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 57
1

mapping.

2

And then the -- as I said, the controller is

3

getting information as to the state of the channel and

4

will adjust the level of encoding, let's say rate

5

one-half, rate three-quarters, and/or the modulation of

6

the symbols that you use, let's say a 16 QAM signal

7

constellation or a 64 QAM signal constellation,

8

depending upon the quality of the transmission channel.

9

Q.

In -- in box 150, I -- I believe you just

10

testified that a bit stream enters that box, which is

11

labeled "Modulator."

12

A.

Uh-huh.

13

Q.

What is the output of the modulator?

14

A.

So -- so the -- as it says in paragraph 28, the

15

modulator can be either QPSK symbol, an 8PSK symbol, a

16

16 QAM symbol, or a 64 QAM symbol.

17
18

Q.

a bit stream, or is it an analog signal?

19
20

So is that output, is that digital data, is it

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

What is it?

Objection.

Each -- for example, if you're using choice

21

three, 16 QAM, 4 bits come in.

22

It can be an X and Y number.

You can think of it as a

23

vector in the X and Y plane.

You can think of it as a

24

two couple.

25

scaling labels will be, you choose, plus or minus 1,

The output is a number.

It will have discrete values.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

The typical

Page 58
1

plus or minus 3.

2

microvolts, depending upon the transmitter power.

3

That could be volts, millivolts,

So you asked before:

Is that digital?

4

it's discrete valued.

5

I say

You said one of those 16 discrete points.

6

Q.

There is the 16 discrete points.

Now, are those values you were just talking

7

about, are those used to modulate or alter a carrier

8

wave?

9

A.

If you recall my three levels of modulation,

10

you -- what's not -- it's not shown -- the rest of the

11

system is not shown here.

12

do, you would take the -- let's take 16 QAM.

13

take two of the bits, feed it to -- let's call it the

14

inphase rail, and two of the bits to the quadrature

15

rail.

16

second level of modulation, and you would -- so in that

17

16 QAM case, you would -- you would amplitude modulate a

18

pulse with either a level a plus 1, minus 1, plus 3,

19

minus 3.

20

pulse will define the bandwidth of the signal.

21

Typically these pulses belong to a family called raised

22

cosine.

23

But typically what you would
You would

Then you would use pulse amplitude modulation, my

And you amplitude modulate a pulse, and this

And so now what you've done -- and you do the

24

similar mechanism for the quadrature channel, and you

25

design what people in the art would call a "baseband

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 61
1

bits are segmented at the input to the modulator at

2

the -- let's say, if we look at case 16 QAM into 4 bit,

3

you group 4 bits at a time, and that produces a symbol.

4

That goes then to the second level of modulation, the

5

third level of modulation.

6

this goes on for -- you know, you're sending lots of

7

bits.

8

and you're sending lots of bits, lots of symbols.

9
10
11

And you -- you -- generally

Q.

You may -- it depends upon a particular system,

Okay.

So you said that the output of the

mapper is a modulated pattern?
A.

Yeah.

That's -- that's Apple's construction.

12

It's consistent with what's used in the -- as it says

13

in -- on page 12, fifty -- paragraph 56, the independent

14

claims 1 and 6 each recite the mapping, the collected

15

bits from the first interleaver and second

16

interleaver -- that's referring out to, I guess, not

17

Figure 1, but it's the same idea -- onto one modulation

18

symbol.

19

Q.

That's what the patent describes it.
So what is -- I'm trying to get an idea of what

20

this modulated pattern is that you're talking about that

21

is output from the mapper.

22
23
24
25

Is -- is this modulated pattern, are these -is this a bit stream?
A.

It's -- for 16 QAM, you would -- you could --

it -- now, it depends upon implementation, how you're

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 62
1

going to implement it.

2

or symbolically, you could think of it in the XY plane

3

or IQ plane as a vector or a point.

4

one of the 16 discrete constellation points associated

5

with 16 QAM constellation.

6

And then you separately divide it, as I said, to get the

7

level -- level 2 pulse amplitude modulation, which then

8

leads to level 3 RF modulation.

9

Q.

But you -- you -- functionally

And that represents

That's what the output is.

So in the case of 16 QAM, if you're looking at

10

the constellation, would -- would you call one of the

11

points in the constellation a modulated pattern?

12

A.

That's -- well, that's a symbol.

Yeah.

That's

13

what -- that's what Apple's construction is, and a --

14

using the language of the pattern -- of the patent.

15

you -- you typically, in a laboratory, would have that

16

displayed.

17

slow down time, you would see discretely points, one of

18

those 16 points being illuminated.

19

modulated pattern or a mapped pattern of bits.

20

So

And you -- you would see various -- if you'd

And that's a

So the symbol is a mapped pattern of bits.

21

map 4 bits into this XY two-topper or vector.

22

You

what a symbol is.

23

Q.

Okay.

That's

So when you use the term "pattern,"

24

that's referring to the pattern of bits that are input

25

into the mapper?

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Okay.

That's where I was getting confused.

3

didn't -- I didn't understand what "pattern" meant in

4

I

"modulated pattern."

5

So you're referring to, you know, in the case

6

of 16 QAM, the 4 bits that are coming into the mapper,

7

that would be the pattern that's modulated?

8

A.

That would be the bit pattern, yeah.

9

Q.

And so if a bit stream were going into a

10

mapper, the first 4 bits would map to -- would be a

11

pattern that maps to one symbol, the second 4 bits would

12

be a pattern that maps to another symbol?

13

A.

Well, it could be a very same symbol point.

14

You got 16 points.

15

would map to the same point.

If it's the same quartet of bits, it

16

Q.

Okay.

Well, let's assume they're all unique.

17

A.

Right.

They can only be unique -- after --

18
19
20

after 16, you got to hit the same spot.
Q.

But -- well, let's take an example where the

bit stream is 12 bits and you have four unique quartets.

21

A.

That's --

22

Q.

Or three, three unique quartets.

23

A.

Okay.

24

Q.

So the first pattern would map to one symbol,

25

the second pattern would map to a second symbol?

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

A.

Yeah.

2

Q.

And the third pattern would map to a third

3

symbol?

4

A.

Yeah.

5

Q.

Now, why in -- in Figure 1 do you believe that

6

the output is -- well, strike that.

7

Why do you believe in Figure 1 that the

8

modulator does not include the pulse amplitude

9

modulation or the RF modulation?

10

A.

I was just looking at the abstract of the

11

patent, but I'll -- I'll define the reference in the --

12

in the spec.

13

Well, if I look in column 2, I'm looking sort

14

of, you know, starting at around 40 and ending at 53.

15

You got to get down to the bottom.

16

adaptively select one of the modulation techniques

17

according to the radio department."

18

The -- "in order to

I mean, there's no discussion of my second

19

level of modulation.

20

there's no pulse shaping involved.

21

discussion of carrier frequency.

22

since this is part of HSDPA, there is a standard.

23

could assume that.

24
25

There's no, as far as I can tell,
There's certainly no
But the -- certainly,
One

So, I mean, I just -- that's all -- that's all
that I see in the patent, and that's all that's -- are

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

modulator 280, in Figure 3, it outputs a modulated

2

pattern?

3

A.

One of 16 QAM points.

4

Q.

Now, is the output of the modulator, is that

5
6
7
8
9
10
11

4 bits, or what -- what is the output?
A.

It's -- it's a four -- it's a symbol that is

one of the 16 points in the QAM, in the XY plane.
Q.

But for it to appear like that, it has to go

through the pulse -- the PAM and the RF modulation,
correct?
A.

No.

You take -- you take 4 bits.

You put it

12

into a lookup table, and it gives you a complex number

13

or an I and Q number.

14

can discuss that -- you can represent that in the signal

15

constellation in the IQ plane or the XY plane as a

16

signal point.

17

QAM here, but.

18

Q.

Okay.

And you can just put that -- you

It's understood.

There's no figure of 16

So going back to what a modulated

19

pattern is, in the case of 16 QAM, you would -- you

20

would say that a modulating -- a modulated pattern is

21

one of the points in the constellation?

22

A.

One of the 16 points.

23

Q.

One of the 16 points in the constellation.

24

A.

And there are various ways to represent that,

25

as a two-topple XY pair, X coordinate and Y coordinate,

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1
2
3

or as a vector.
Q.

So would you agree that you could also call

that same point a "modulated signal"?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Why not?

6

A.

Okay.

To me -- and I see that Dr. Wessel uses

7

that term -- a signal in general has a notion of

8

bandwidth associated with it.

9

a number.

10

That symbol coming out is

Numbers don't have bandwidth.
Now, as he points to my textbook, when you --

11

when you start out pedagogically and you're teaching

12

students about statistical decision theory, you

13

generally start with, are you sending signal one or

14

signal two.

15

symbol, one signal.

16

can interchange the terms.

17

So you're sending, let's say, 1 bit, one
So in that pedagogical case, you

But in -- understanding of those skilled in the

18

art, a particular symbol as I'm talking about is a

19

number.

20

just a number.

21

that -- people wouldn't call that "signal."

22

It could be a complex number, I and Q.

It's

It doesn't -- you can't associate

So what would people call a signal?

People

23

would call a signal, after you have a sequence of these

24

symbols -- oh, let's say -- let's say -- let's say you

25

wanted to send, in a real signal, just one -- in a real

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

system, I want to get one symbol from me to you.

2

take that one symbol.

3

Now it has a bandwidth.

4

and you receive it.

5

signal is that composite where I can say it has --

6

exists for time and has a bandwidth.

7

So I

I pulse amplitude modulate it.
And I put it in an RF carrier

So I've sent one symbol, but the

A symbol is just a number.

But in actuality,

8

you send a plurality of such symbols in time, and the

9

composite is called a signal.

10
11
12
13

Q.
answer.
A.

So I think you said something in your last
I thought you said a symbol is just a number?
Yes, I think that's what I said, a complex

number.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

Or an I and Q number, X and Y.

That's --

16

that's how someone of ordinary skill would interpret

17

that.

18

Q.

And what would that number represent?

19

A.

Well, it just -- in the language of the patent

20

in the more generally, if a 16 QAM, it would -- it would

21

have an association with 4 bits.

22

what symbol point, and I could tell you which 4 bits

23

you're -- depends if you're the transmitter or the

24

receiver -- what you're transmitting or what you believe

25

you received.

You -- you tell me

There's a one-to-one mapping.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1
2
3

Q.

Now, you would agree that your textbook and

other sources refer to symbols as signals?
A.

Under -- as I -- as I said in my testimony

4

which I just gave, that -- I believe the only time that

5

I did that in my book would be in a pedagogical sense

6

when you're sending one symbol.

7

it's pedagogical to teach students about statistical

8

decision theory, hypothesis testing, maximum likelihood

9

detection.

10

So therefore -- and

So you're sending one signal, and there it's

sending one symbol, and the terms are loosely used.

11

But no one of ordinary -- no one of skill in

12

the art would say, "I give you a symbol, a 16 QAM

13

symbol, a 64 -- a 64 QAM symbol," and say that's a

14

signal.

15

I don't know.

16

Q.

What's its bandwidth?

How long does it last?

In your -- in your book or any other references

17

outside of the patent that you've seen, have you ever

18

seen a symbol referred to as a modulated pattern?

19
20

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection.

The -- certainly I don't think I used that in

21

my book.

22

this is consistent with, as I said, the unusual use of

23

the term for element 280 as a modulator.

24

people would call that a mapper.

25

word "mapper," so that -- that would be a map pattern.

I don't recall seeing any references.

But

I think most

And if you use the

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

I think in my book I have the -- I did take a look.

2

use the word "pattern" for bit pattern.

3

used the word "mapper."

4

I

And I'm sure I

And it would be clear -- I mean -- you know,

5

and also in these books -- mine is a graduate-level text

6

when I was a faculty member.

7

Bell Labs in 2001, I taught at Columbia University for a

8

couple years.

9

still use my book.

When I retired from

So this was a Ph.D. level course.
Now it's 20 years old.

10

it -- this were is Ph.D. students.

11

wasn't necessary to define the term.

12

They

But, I mean,

used in the context.

13

Q.

You didn't -- it
You defined it

Have you ever seen in any extrinsic source or

14

any source outside of the patent the output of a mapper

15

being referred to as a modulated pattern?

16

A.

Again, mapper.

Well, if you -- if you have a

17

mapper, you would say it's the -- it's the output of the

18

mapper, you know.

19

standards have, you know, a signal or mapping table.

20

Q.

Okay.

You have -- that's -- and most

So I guess, in summary, you haven't seen

21

any -- anything in the patent or anything in any other

22

sources that describe a symbol as a modulated pattern?

23
24
25

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection; asked and answered.

Well, I disagree.

I mean, as I said, if you

look at Figure 3, the input is an input bit pattern, it

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

goes to a modulator.

2

a modulated pattern at the output.

3

So in plane English, that would be

I think that the claim construction is

4

informative more for "symbol" because that's the way

5

it's used in the patent.

6

that way, you might be confused when you -- you could be

7

confused when you read that term, because I would say,

8

to turn it around like you were suggesting but which I

9

disagreed with, that modulator could have all three

In fact, if you didn't do it

10

levels of modulation, but clearly it only has the first

11

level, and it uses it in an unconventional way.

12

think it's wise that Apple use the language of the -- of

13

the patent to clarify "symbol."

14

Q.

So I

Let me ask it one more time.

15

You have not seen anything, either in the

16

patent or in any other sources, textbooks, treatises,

17

papers, that describe a symbol as a modulated pattern,

18

correct?

19
20

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Same objection.

I -- sitting here today, I can't recall the

21

hundreds of thousands of papers that I've read, you

22

know.

23

done that in Google Scholar.

24

I'm not going to agree with you to that statement

25

because, you know, my memory is not that good.

We can put it into Google search.

I -- I haven't

So I can't -- you know,

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

Q.

But sitting here today, you can't identify the

2

use of "symbol" in any of these -- in any source where

3

"symbol" is defined as a modulated pattern?

4

MR. KOLOVOS:

Same objection.

5

Q.

Correct?

6

A.

In any extrinsic?

You know, I -- I -- I -- I

7

think that's -- you know, you're entitled to ask the

8

question.

9

can't instantly search all the papers, hundreds, if not

And I'd say I -- I -- I don't remember.

10

thousands, of papers in my 40-year career that I've

11

I

read, things that I've written, you know.

12

It's just simply that the use of the word for

13

element 280 modulator is, to me, nonstandard in mapping.

14

So, you know, it's a symbol.

15

pretty common as to what you're doing.

16

bits into a symbol.

17

doing in this special way in conformance with SMP.

18

Q.

19

Okay.

A bit mapper would be
You're mapping

That's what that element 280 is

Let me -- let me try one more time.

Sitting here today, you cannot identify any

20

source, any paper, treatise, book, anything that defines

21

a symbol as a modulated pattern; isn't that correct?

22
23

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection.

I -- I haven't tried to.

So, you know, if that

24

was an exercise that I was asked to do, I would go about

25

searching.

But I haven't attempted that.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

So I'm not

Page 99
1

going to say it doesn't exist, but I haven't attempted

2

to do that.

3

Q.

But you would agree to me -- with me that

4

sitting here today you cannot identify any book,

5

treatise, paper, any source outside of the patent itself

6

that defines "symbol" as a modulated pattern?

7
8
9

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection.

I'd just repeat my answer.

attempted to do that.

I -- I haven't

So you're asking me to sort of

10

reach a negative conclusion when I haven't attempted to

11

do the work.

12

Q.

So my question isn't -- it's not have you

13

attempted to do it.

14

today you haven't identified in your declaration, and

15

you can't identify -- sitting here, you can't identify

16

any paper, book, treatise, any source that defines

17

"symbol" as a modulated pattern, right?

18
19

MR. KOLOVOS:

I'm just saying that sitting here

A.

Objection.

I haven't been asked to do it, so I haven't

20

done it.

21

the answer to the question.

22
23
24
25

Q.

I haven't attempted to do it.

Okay.

I don't know

The next section --

MR. KOLOVOS:

You want to break for lunch

before we get to the next section?
MR. BRIGGS:

Sure.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 100
1
2

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.

We're going off the video

It's 12:35 p.m.

3

(Luncheon recess from 12:25 p.m. to 1:31 p.m.)

4

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

5
6
7

We're on the video record.

It's 1:31 p.m.
BY MR. BRIGGS:
Q.

Dr. Gitlin, Apple's construction of "symbol"

8

has an interpretation of a modulated pattern in -- well,

9

strike that.

10
11

Apple's construction requires a symbol to be in
a sequence of such patterns.

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Okay.

Do you see that?

Now, would you agree with me that a

14

symbol does not necessarily need to be in a sequence of

15

symbols?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Okay.

You can send one symbol.
So in defining "symbol," why do you

18

think it's proper to require that the symbol appear in a

19

sequence of symbols?

20

A.

Well, I think it's -- it's informative because

21

in these type of wireless and communication systems you

22

generally send a sequence of symbols.

23
24
25

Q.

But are you saying that the claim is actually

limited to sending a sequence of symbols?
MR. KOLOVOS:

Objection.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Page 101
1

A.

You mean claim 11?

2

Q.

Yeah, claim 11.

3

A.

Well, I mean, an apparatus for receiving data

4

in the communication system comprising.

5

understood of someone in skill in the art that a

6

communication system, almost every system that I'm

7

familiar with, sends a sequence of symbols.

8
9

Q.

So it would be

But other than your understanding of what

somebody with skill in the art would believe, is there

10

anything in the claim language that you can point to

11

that requires a sequence of symbols to be sent?

12

A.

Well, I think it -- for example, if you look --

13

it's understood from the spec.

14

Figure 5, for example.

So look at the 64 QAM case, they

15

show you five symbols.

And --

16

Q.

So that was Figure?

17

A.

5.

18

Q.

5.

19

A.

Yeah.

So if you look at

So it shows five symbols under 64 QAM?
And it -- yes.

And there's a reason for

20

it, yeah, as I'm sure you're familiar with in the text.

21

But it's illustrative that -- that you're going to --

22

generally -- in this case, it's to accommodate some

23

limitation in memory.

24

have -- I think even in Figure 4 it shows for 64 QAM two

25

symbols.

But you're -- you're going to

But I think it's understood by -- when you say

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

I call level-one modulation, and can only talk about

2

level-one, what it calls, demodulation.

3

level-one mapping and level-one unmapping or demapping.

4
5

Q.

Okay.

So I'll call it

So you're disagreeing with how the

patent uses the terms "signal" and "symbol" here?

6

MR. KOLOVOS:

Objection.

7

A.

I'd like to read the patent in the column 21.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

Yeah, I'm disagreeing.

I mean, if I look at

10

Figure 17, it -- it clearly shows that there's a signal

11

sample coming in.

12

And it's the -- the --

It's not clear at that point if the signal, the

13

received signal sample, has been -- was -- has been

14

resolved to one of 16 QAM points.

15

So there is some ambiguity.

16

simply going from one of 16 -- it's a demapper -- one of

17

16 points to a 4-bit pattern.

18

pattern has then split the stuff that's going to the

19

systematic deinterleaver and the parity deinterleaver.

20

Q.

Okay.

You don't see that.

But the demodulator is

And then that 4-bit

So I -- I guess the answer to my

21

question is, yes, you do disagree with how the patent

22

describes the received signal as being a symbol?

23

MR. KOLOVOS:

I object to the form.

24

Mischaracterizes both his testimony and what the

25

patent says.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

A.

So the -- at the receiver you -- you have a

2

series of wave forms or samples, and those are proper to

3

refer to that as "signal" or "signal samples."

4

only, you know, when you're making a decision and

5

saying, "Which of the 16 constellation points or symbols

6

do you think has been transmitted," are you back into a

7

symbol.

8

never the case --

9

It's

So, you know, there is -- there is a -- it's

You're -- you're taking a received signal

10

sample, and you're mapping it through -- through some

11

decision device into one of these 16 points.

12

have a decision as to what you think the received --

13

what the symbol -- what you think what symbol was

14

transmitted.

15

is, I think, as I said, a poor choice of English, it

16

would be a demapper.

17

Q.

18
19

And you go through this demodulator which

So can a symbol be transmitted?
MR. KOLOVOS:

A.

Now you

Objection.

A symbol going through the three steps of

20

modulation.

21

signal by following these three steps.

22

pattern; you map it, in the language of the patent;

23

modulate it to a symbol.

24

and then you RFO modulate it.

25

is called a signal.

You -- you -- you generate a transmitted
You take a bit

You amplitude modulate PAM,
And that whole composite

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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2

So yes, that's the way you transmit symbols
or --

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

Symbols are inside a -- if you look inside the

So symbols are transmitted wirelessly?

5

airplane, there are symbols.

6

look -- if you look at the airplane, it's a signal.

7

what goes on the air is referred to as a signal.

If you look -- if you

8

Q.

And the signal contains symbols, correct?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And

So symbols are transmitted in a signal, and

11
12

symbols are received in a signal?
A.

The receiver operation is more complicated.

13

you -- the patent doesn't describe any of the

14

operations, other than these what I'll call

15

demodulated -- it's called demodulating or

16

So

demultiplexing.

17

And it -- so you receive a signal and you --

18

you undo the modulation through carrier frequency.

19

There are some other parameters in there.

20

acquisition, you undo the effects of the distortion of

21

channel, and now you're presented with a sequence of

22

numbers.

23

received signal samples.

24
25

And for phase

So I think people would say that those are the

And if you looked at those on a plot where you
have the 16 possible points, you'd have a bunch of fuzz.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

A.

I read it.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

A.

I disagree.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

It's the same issue, that the -- so let me read

6

So do you agree or disagree with that?

So why do you disagree?

the word.

7

What Apple, the construction says, a modulator

8

that is a map pattern.

9

and a pattern of bits and modulating it, using the

10

So that's taking a group of bits

terminology of the patent.

11

So as I've said many times, in 16 QAM you take

12

4 bits, and you produce one of those 16 constellation

13

points.

14

So -- so the demodulator is acting in an

15

ordinary fashion to convert or -- this is -- you have

16

a -- at the --

17

The way demodulator is used here is a demapper.

18

You already decided, for whatever receiver mechanism you

19

had, that the input of the demodulator is one of

20

16 points.

21

into -- one of those 16 points into 4 bits.

22

that's -- you know.

23

So the demodulator is simply a demapper
And

And -- and Apple is not claiming that a symbol

24

is itself a pattern.

25

taking the pattern and then modulating it to one of

It's a modulated pattern.

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

So it's

Page 120
1

16 points.

2

Q.

3

That's what a symbol is.

Let's -- let's turn to the next section of

Dr. Wessel's declaration.

4

A.

Where are you?

5

Q.

On subsection B, between paragraphs 25 and 26.

6

THE WITNESS:

I'm going to need to take a break

7

in a couple of minutes.

8

take it now?

9

11

I want to go to the bathroom.

MR. BRIGGS:

10

Yeah.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
record.

Is this a good place to

We're going off the video

It's 2:17 p.m.

12

(Recess from 2:17 p.m. until 2:28 p.m.)

13

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

14
15
16
17

We're on the video record.

Its 2:28 p.m.
BY MR. BRIGGS:
Q.

Dr. Gitlin, can you turn back to page 5 of

Dr. Wessel's declaration.

18

So I wanted to ask you some more questions

19

about Samsung's alternative construction.

20

talked about the first part that says a "modulated

21

signal," and you disagreed that that was correct.

22
23

We just

Now I want to ask you if you disagree with the
remainder of that proposed construction, which states --

24

A.

How would you parse it?

25

Q.

Well, that part says that a symbol represents a

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

number of bits specified according to the modulation

2

technique.

3

I mean, would you agree that a symbol

4

represents a number of bits specified according to a

5

modulation technique?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Okay.

So your real issue with Samsung's

8

proposed construction is the portion that states "a

9

modulated signal"?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And you don't agree that it's a signal; you

12
13

believe it's a modulated pattern?
A.

Yes.

And that -- that language is what -- the

14

way the patent refers the use of the word "modulator."

15

I mean, as I said many times, I'm -- every time I'm

16

seeing that "modulator," I'm saying "mapper," because

17

that's the language that I'm familiar with, a bit

18

mapper.

19

excuse me.

20

Q.

21
22
23
24
25

You map bits into the signal -- to a symbol,

Yeah, we've got a lot of tongue twisters today.
MR. KOLOVOS:

And given that the whole dispute

seems to be is it "symbol" or is it "signal."
MR. BRIGGS:

Hopefully you've been watching

over us.
MR. KOLOVOS:

I've been trying to, trying to,

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

trying keep an eye on that.

2

Q.

3

Can you turn to page -- or paragraph 38 of

Dr. Wessel's declaration?

4

A.

Let me -- let me just -- this is in...

5

Q.

And you might want to refer back to

6
7

paragraph 74 of your declaration.
A.

8
9
10

I have paragraph 74.
the end of it.

13

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's make sure I got to
38.

Let me -- it goes on

to the next page.

11
12

There's where I'm going.

Okay.
Q.

I think I read them all.

Okay.

So why don't we start with paragraph 74

of your declaration.

14

You make a statement in the middle of this

15

paragraph that it would be -- you state, "It would be

16

incorrect to refer to the entire sequence as a single

17

symbol.

18

a signal representative data would be incorrect because

19

it would fail to distinguish between a single symbol and

20

a sequence of such symbols."

21
22

Okay.

25

So what is -- what is your concern that

you're expressing here in paragraph 74?

23
24

Accordingly, a construction for symbols such as

MR. KOLOVOS:
A.

Objection.

It's, as I recall, it's intended to distinguish

between a symbol and a signal.

I mean, it's that the --

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

Exhibit E

Exhibit F

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
Page 1
1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3

SAN JOSE DIVISION

4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

---------------------------------x
APPLE INC., a California
)
corporation,
)
)
Plaintiff,
)
)
vs.
)
)No. 11-CV-01846LHK
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
)
a Korean entity; SAMSUNG
)
ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., a
)
New York corporation; SAMSUNG
)
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC, )
a Delaware limited liability
)
Company,
)
)
Defendants. )
---------------------------------x

14
15
16
17

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF TONY GIVARGIS, PH.D.

18

Los Angeles, California

19

Tuesday, December 6, 2011

20
21

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

22
23

Reported by:

24

SUSAN A. SULLIVAN, CSR #3522, RPR, CRR

25

JOB NO. 44330
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Page 2
1

Tuesday, December 6, 2011

2

8:56 a.m.

3
4

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF TONY GIVARGIS,

5

PH.D., taken by Defendants, at the offices

6

of Quinn, Emanuel, Urquhart & Sullivan,

7

865 South Figueroa Street, Los Angeles,

8

California, before Susan A. Sullivan, CSR,

9

RPR, CRR, State of California.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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Page 5
1
2
3

MR. SHAH:

and representing Apple.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

4
5

Ali Shah, WilmerHale, for the witness

Thank you.

And will the reporter now swear or affirm
the witness.

6
7

TONY GIVARGIS, PH.D.,

8

called as a witness, having been duly sworn by

9

the court reporter, was examined and testified

10

as follows:

11
12

EXAMINATION

13

BY MS. MAROULIS:

14

Q

15

today?

16

A

Good, thank you.

17

Q

My name is Victoria Maroulis and I will be

18

Good morning, Mr. Givargis.

How are you

asking you some questions today.

19

Have you ever been deposed before?

20

A

No.

21

Q

In that case let me briefly run you through

22
23

the rules of the deposition.
First of all, do you understand that you

24

are testifying today like you would be in a court of

25

law under oath even though we're sitting in a

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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Page 29
1

publisher that I recognized or they were -- if they

2

were references on the website, that they were

3

credible and they were published in a place that I

4

would consider reasonable.

5

Q

Did counsel for Apple instruct you where to

6

search, what types of publications to search for

7

extrinsic evidence?

8

MR. SHAH:

9

Object to the extent it calls for

privileged communication, but you can answer it.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. SHAH:

12

the communication.

13

Q

Not necessarily.

They told me --

Again, just a caution on substance of

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Let me help you out.

I

14

don't want to ask you what you spoke with them

15

about, my question is whether you were the one who

16

selected the extrinsic evidence in your declaration

17

or it was provided by counsel.

18
19
20

A

Absolutely, yes, I understand.

I selected

all of those.
Q

In your search for a definition of "applet"

21

in extrinsic sources have you come across any

22

definitions that did not support your opinion?

23

A

Yes, I did.

24

Q

Can you give me examples of those?

25

A

One example of those was Microsoft's

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

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1

control panel applet which is -- which was a very

2

sort of exceptional use of the term "applet," a very

3

limited in terms of how widely the term "applet" is

4

used and how Microsoft was using it in that context.

5

That was one example.

6
7

Q

term "applet" exceptional?

8
9

Why do you consider Microsoft's use of the

A

Yes.

Most applets are usually considered

to be Java applets and/or similar to Java, Java,

10

sort of Java-like applets in the sense that they are

11

interpreted, they are an application or an app

12

running within an application.

13

The Microsoft control panel applets are

14

executable codes, they're actually dynamically-

15

linked libraries that do not require interpretation,

16

they run directly on the processor.

17

Q

18

applets.

19

You said that most applets are Java
There are any applets that are not Java

ones?

20

A

Yes, a number of them.

21

Q

Can you list them, please?

22

A

Yes.

For example, there are Python

23

applets, there are AppleScript applets, there are

24

JavaScript applets, there are applets in the context

25

of Flash, the Flash programming environment.

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1

Q

So if a colleague came up to you and said

2

they're writing an applet you would not necessarily

3

know which one of those languages they were writing

4

it in?

5

A

6

MR. SHAH:

I would automatically assume -Just give me a second.

7

Objection; vague.

8

You can answer if you understand the

9
10

question.
THE WITNESS:

Yes, I would -- I would assume

11

Java applets because those are the most common types

12

of applets.

13

Q

14

BY MS. MAROULIS:

But they're not

exclusive, correct?

15

A

Correct.

16

Q

Besides the reason you stated about why

17

Microsoft was exceptional in use of applets, is

18

there any other reason why you did not pick the

19

Microsoft definition for your declaration?

20

MR. SHAH:

Object to form.

21

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

I felt that that represented

22

a very small percentage of all of the applets that

23

or all of the kinds of applets and it would not be

24

the usual or the common understanding of the term

25

"applet."

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1

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Do you agree that at

2

least some people in the programming community when

3

they hear the word "applet" can think of a Microsoft

4

control panel applet?

5

A

Some, yes.

6

Q

And do you agree that was the case in 2005

7

as well?

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

Besides coming across the Microsoft control

10

panel applet, did you see any other definition of

11

"applets" in your research that diverged from the

12

one you picked for your declaration?

13

MR. SHAH:

14

THE WITNESS:

15

Q

16
17
18
19

Objection; vague.
No.

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Did you see any

definition of AppleScript applets?
A

I first came to -- to see AppleScript

applets when I read Mr. Cole's declaration.
Q

And upon reading Mr. Cole's declaration did

20

it remind you that there were in fact AppleScript

21

applets back in 2005?

22

A

Yes, that is correct.

23

Q

And in your research did you come across

24
25

the Python applets?
A

I was aware of Python applets but I did not

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1
2
3

necessarily come across a writing or a textbook.
Q

Is it correct that Python applets existed

in 2005?

4

A

Yes, that is correct.

5

Q

In your research did you come across Flash

6
7

program applets?
A

I was very well aware of Flash applets but

8

I did not find or obtain or look for documents

9

describing Flash applets.

10
11

Q

You are aware they existed in 2005 as well,

correct?

12

A

Yes.

13

Q

Are you familiar with Linux applets?

14

A

I am not.

15

Q

Let's turn to your declaration on Page 5.

16

What is the invention of the '711 patent?

17

MR. SHAH:

Objection; vague.

18

THE WITNESS:

I can summarize the '711 patent as

19

being a method or a teaching of how to accommodate

20

multitasking on a mobile device.

21
22

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Is there any reference to

Java in this patent?

23

A

May I take a look?

24

Q

Absolutely.

25

A

No.

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1
2

Q

system independent nature of applets?

3
4

Is there any references in this patent to

A

You mean operating-system dependent or just

system?

5

Q

Yes.

6

A

No, there is not.

7

Q

If you recall, is there any reference to

8

Java in the context of applets in the prosecution

9

history?

10

MR. SHAH:

If you need to review any documents,

11

you can ask for them.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

had a copy of the prosecution history.

14
15

Yes, I would appreciate it if I

MS. MAROULIS:
history.

16

I'm happy to mark the file

It is rather sizeable.
Let's mark this as Exhibit 5.

17

(Givargis Exhibit 5, a document, Bates Nos.

18

SAMNDCA00007840 to SAMNDCA00008459, marked

19

for identification, as of this date.)

20

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Sir, I'm placing before

21

you Exhibit 5.

22

prosecution history of the '711 patent?

23
24
25

Do you recognize it as the

A

I believe portions of it I have reviewed,

Q

You don't remember reviewing the whole

yes.

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1

thing?

2

A

Not the entire thing, no.

3

Q

How did you decide what portions of that

4

file history to review?

5

A

The file history was provided to me by the

6

attorneys.

7

Q

The file history that you see before you is

8

double-sided, so do you remember giving me documents

9

that is this thick or thicker or was it a smaller

10

document?

11

A

I recall a smaller document.

12

MS. MAROULIS:

Counsel, I would appreciate

13

seeing the version of the file history that was

14

provided to the witness.

15

MR. SHAH:

I can represent that we provided the

16

certified file history.

17

MS. MAROULIS:

18

MR. SHAH:

19

MS. MAROULIS.

20

Q

The entire file history?

We did.
Via PDF file, not via paper.

BY MS. MAROULIS:

This is not a memory

21

test, but do you recall any references to Java in

22

the context of applets in the file history?

23
24
25

A

There was absolutely no reference to Java

in the file history that I reviewed.
Q

Was there any reference to applet being

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1
2

operating-systems independent?
A

I do not recall any reference to operating-

3

system-independent applets in the file history that

4

I reviewed.

5

Q

Turning back to Exhibit 2 which is the

6

patent-in-suit, is it correct, sir, that there's

7

only one place where applets are mentioned in the

8

patent?

9
10

A

There is only one place in the

specification that refers to patents.

11

Q

Thank you.

12

A

And to applet.

13

Q

Thank you for correcting me.

14

specification.

15
16

I did mean

And is it correct, sir, that that place in
the specification is Column 3, Lines 8 through 14?

17

A

Yes, that is correct.

18

Q

This passage does not mention Java as well,

19

correct?

20

A

That is correct.

21

Q

And it does not mention operating-systems

22

independent.

23

A

That is correct, yes.

24

Q

Why do you cite this passage to support

25

your definition in your declaration?

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1

A

Yes.

The important element of this passage

2

is the part that says at least one applet within an

3

application model -- module or in each of the

4

application modules, and that relationship of an

5

applet within an application module or in the

6

context of an application module is relevant to my

7

understanding and definition of applets being

8

interpreted by a host application module.

9

Q

Where do you see the word "within," sir?

10

A

There is no "within" in this, in this

11

particular text.

12

Q

Okay.

13

A

There's an association, yes.

14

Q

Can you explain how you read this last

15
16

sentence to support your definition.
A

"Application modules of the portable

17

terminal include at least one applet and each of the

18

application modules, that is each menu of the

19

portable terminal, independently performs multi-

20

tasking."

21

So as I interpret it, the applets run

22

within or execute within an application module or

23

execute in the context of an application module.

24
25

Q

Do you draw a distinction between

"application module" and "program"?

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1
2

operating-system independent?
A

This passage does not make reference to

3

operating-system independent.

4

association between an applet and an application

5

module, together with the claim language and the

6

prosecution, the file history, does suggest to me

7

that the applet requires the application module as

8

a, sort of as a context, and that relationship is

9

what one would expect from Java applets or Java-like

10
11

However, the

applets, that interpreted.
Q

Setting aside the claim language and

12

prosecution history, is it correct that there's

13

nothing in this particular passage that indicates

14

operating-system independence?

15
16
17
18

A

Nothing in the passage mentions anything

about being operating-system independent, yes.
Q

Let's take a look at the claim language.

For example, Claim 1 in Column 7, do you see that?

19

A

Yes.

20

Q

The relevant limitation is "Generating a

21

music background play object, wherein the music

22

background play object includes an application

23

module including at least one applet."

24
25

Is there any mention of operating-system
independence here?

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1

A

No.

2

Q

Is there anything in this claim that you

3

see that supports your notion of operating-system

4

independence?

5

A

What I see in this sentence, passage, is,

6

again, the association between an applet running or

7

an applet that is within an application module and

8

that association to me suggests a Java-like

9

interpreted environment.

10
11

Q

Did you review the testimony of the

inventor of this patent?

12

A

Yes.

I reviewed a subset of it.

13

Q

Did you see that the inventor who was

14

developing this technology was working with system-

15

dependent applets?

16

A

That is correct, yes.

17

Q

Which system-dependent applets was he

18
19
20
21

working with, to your understanding?
MR. SHAH:

If you need to see any documents to

refresh your recollection, you can ask.
THE WITNESS:

Yes.

I think this one I can

22

answer without the document, but it was a Qualcomm

23

chipset.

24
25

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Do you disagree that the

technology he was working on is described by Claim

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1

1?

2

MR. SHAH:

Object to the extent it calls for a

3

legal conclusion.

4

THE WITNESS:

5
6

I have not formed that position

yet.
Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

Do you understand that he

7

was asked during deposition about the embodiments of

8

the patent?

9
10

MR. SHAH:

Same objection.

THE WITNESS:

11

Q

I'm not sure exactly what he

was asked.

12

Yes.

BY MS. MAROULIS:

If the technology that he

13

was working on embodies this claim would you agree

14

with me that the claim includes applets that are

15

also system dependent?

16

MR. SHAH:

Same objection.

17

THE WITNESS:

Based on -- I recognize that the

18

inventor was working with a system that was

19

OS-dependent, specifically the Qualcom chipset.

20

However, that use of the term "applet" within that

21

context was unusual or it was not consistent with

22

the common understanding of the term "applet" at the

23

time and the '711 patent does not make that

24

distinction clear.

25

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

If the '711 patent does

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1

are off the record.

2

(Recess)

3

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

4

are back on the record.

5

The time is 9:59 a.m. and we

BY MS. MAROULIS:

6

Q

Mr. Givargis, before the break we were

7

discussing the '711 patent.

Other than the

8

"specification," quote, we discussed and the coding

9

language, there's no other portion of the '711

10

patent that you are relying on in your declaration,

11

correct?

12

A

I believe so, yes.

13

MS. MAROULIS:

I would like to now switch to the

14

prosecution history which is Exhibit 5 and, for the

15

record, the document control numbers are

16

SAMNDCA00007840 through 8459.

17
18
19

Q

What is your understanding, sir, of what a

file history is?
A

Yes.

It has three components, some of it

20

are identifying information or titles of various

21

documents and so on.

22

which is sort of the examiner's rejections and a

23

description of why those rejections are followed by

24

a response to the office action which comes from the

25

applicant in response to the rejections.

Then it has another component

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1
2

Q

are you relying on in your declaration?

3
4
5

What particular portions of this document

MR. SHAH:

Look at your declaration if you need

to.
THE WITNESS:

Yes.

May I look at my

6

declaration?

7

Q

BY MS. MAROULIS:

8

A

Yes.

Yes.

I'm relying on the examiner's

9

suggestion that the phrase "a music background play

10

object" will be -- will be augmented with "the music

11

background play objects including an application

12

module includes at least one applet" to distinguish

13

it from the Kokubo patent."

14
15

Q

Are you reviewing to the interview with the

examiner on December 8, 2009?

16

A

Yes.

17

Q

If you would like you can turn to Pages

18

7871 through 7873 of this exhibit, of Exhibit 5.

19

A

Yes.

20

Q

Is this the record of the examiner's

21
22
23

interview that we have been talking about?
MR. SHAH:

Objection.

The document speaks for

itself.

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Q

Yes, that's correct.

BY MS. MAROULIS:

And is it correct that

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the relevant passage you were relying on appears on

2

Page 7873 of Exhibit 5?

3

A

This appears to be a summary of the

4

interview that is consistent with the passage I have

5

been relying on, yes.

6

Q

7

interview?

8

A

No, I did not.

9

Q

So the only record of this interview you

10

Did you interview any participants of this

are relying on is this summary here, correct?

11

A

12

text, yes.

13

Q

And the --

14

A

Surrounding it.

15

Q

And the followup filings by the applicants.

16

A

Correct.

17

Q

Is there anything in this interview summary

18

This summary and some of the additional

that mentions Java?

19

A

No, there is not.

20

Q

And is there anything in this summary that

21
22
23

mentions applet being system independent?
MR. SHAH:

Objection.

The document speaks for

itself.

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Q

No, there is not.

BY MS. MAROULIS:

What in particular about

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