STC.UNM v. Intel Corporation
Filing
147
STC.UNM'S REPLY BRIEF ON THE ISSUE OF CLAIM CONSTRUCTION re 113 Brief, filed by STC. UNM. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 8 - [Excerpts from] Smith Deposition, # 2 Exhibit 9 - Smith Dep Exh 2, # 3 Exhibit 10 - RIT Website, # 4 Exhibit 11 - Smith Dep Exh 9, # 5 Exhibit 12 - Smith Dep Exh 10, # 6 Exhibit 13 - Smith Dep Exh 11, # 7 Exhibit 14 - Smith Dep Exh 12, # 8 Exhibit 15 - Smith Dep Exh 5)(Pedersen, Steven)
Exhibit 8
[Excerpts from] Smith Deposition Testimony
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO
3
---oOo---
4
5
6
7
8
STC.UNM,
)
Plaintiff,
)
) Case No.: 10-CV-01077-RV-DWS.
vs.
)
Volume 1
)
Pages 1 to 211
INTEL CORPORATION,
)
Defendant.
)
________________________)
9
10
11
12
13
DEPOSITION OF BRUCE SMITH
14
Wednesday, September 14, 2011
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16
17
Reported by:
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HEIDI BELTON, CSR, RPR, CRR, CCRR
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Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 12885
20
_________________________________________________________
21
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
22
WORLDWIDE DEPOSITION & VIDEOGRAPHY SERVICES
23
701 Battery Street, 3rd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94111
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(415) 981-3498 or (800) 522-7096
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1
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:05:04
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09:05:05
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09:05:06
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(Whereupon, the witness, BRUCE SMITH,
09:05:10
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having been duly sworn, testified as follows:)
09:05:17
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09:05:20
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17:25:44
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research and technology from 2000 to 2007; is that
09:05:41
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correct?
09:05:41
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09:05:44
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09:05:45
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Q.
And did that terminate in 2007?
09:05:50
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A.
Yes.
09:05:53
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Q.
What happened?
09:05:54
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A.
Intel no longer provides that funding to the
09:05:56
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09:06:01
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Q.
What was the funding?
09:06:02
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A.
It was a --
09:06:03
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MR. HUR:
09:06:04
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You may answer.
09:06:07
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THE WITNESS:
09:06:11
25
STC.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
If there are no
stipulations, the reporter may swear in the witness.
MR. HUR:
I'd like to represent for the record
that Dr. Chris Mack is also with us.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Dr. Smith, you were the Intel professor of
A.
At Rochester Institute of Technology; that's
correct.
In 2007, that time frame, yeah.
microelectronic engineering department.
Object to the form.
It was a -- an affiliate
membership fee that Intel paid to the microelectronic
7
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:06:15
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engineering department.
09:06:18
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affiliates of microelectronic engineering to pay the
09:06:22
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department to support some of the activities and
09:06:24
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students and equipment and things like that.
09:06:26
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
09:06:26
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09:06:31
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09:06:32
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09:06:35
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that, an arrangement was made between Intel and RIT's
09:06:40
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development office that Intel would be allowed to have
09:06:44
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naming rights to a professorship for the association fee
09:06:48
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they paid.
09:06:49
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Q.
Kind of like how they name football stadiums?
09:06:52
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A.
Well, to a much lesser --
09:06:54
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MR. HUR:
09:06:55
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THE WITNESS:
09:06:57
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yeah, universities that is a common thing.
09:07:00
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
09:07:01
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Q.
09:07:03
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much money?
09:07:04
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MR. HUR:
09:07:06
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THE WITNESS:
09:07:07
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wasn't an endowment, which often these types of things
09:07:11
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were.
09:07:15
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it.
Q.
It's common for a lot of the
And that's why you have the title Intel
professor?
A.
Right.
In 2000 or maybe it was a year before
Object to form.
To a much lesser extent.
But,
"Lesser extent," meaning you didn't get as
Object to the form.
Right.
And the term was -- it
This was an arrangement with a limited term to
8
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:15:22
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question in a general sense, that's different than if
09:15:25
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you're asking if what she said is true.
09:15:29
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expect what she said is true because she said it to me.
09:15:32
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
09:15:33
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Q.
Was it important to you or not?
09:15:35
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A.
Okay.
09:15:38
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09:15:39
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Q.
Yes.
09:15:40
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A.
Yes.
09:15:40
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Q.
Very important?
09:15:40
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A.
Well, very compared to what; it was important,
09:15:47
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09:15:47
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Q.
And you were considering at one time
09:15:48
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increasing -- asking Intel to increase the amount from
09:15:52
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$50,000 to $100,000; isn't that right?
09:15:58
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09:16:02
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at a $100,000 level, I believe in 2000 or maybe 1999.
09:16:10
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A few years after that I came to understand
09:16:12
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that Intel because of economic reasons decided for some
09:16:18
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period of time they would reduce that to $50,000.
09:16:23
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some time had passed -- and, again, I don't have the
09:16:25
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dates in front of me, but I see this is from 2006 --
09:16:28
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both Ms. Stevens and I felt it might be a good time to
09:16:31
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ask Intel if they would increase that back to what their
09:16:36
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original promise was.
I -- I -- I
Is that the question, was the Intel
professorship important to me?
yes.
A.
Intel initially agreed to support the position
Since
15
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:16:38
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Q.
But you didn't do that?
09:16:39
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A.
Well, instead --
09:16:40
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MR. HUR:
09:16:41
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THE WITNESS:
09:16:43
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wasn't the one that dealt with Intel.
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this e-mail, I wasn't sure whether or not Ms. Stevens
09:16:50
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had done it.
09:16:51
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09:16:54
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09:17:00
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who took over for Ms. Stevens.
09:17:04
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two years that lapsed since 2006 and 2008 I hadn't heard
09:17:08
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anything else from Ms. Stevens.
09:17:10
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the situation was.
09:17:12
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
09:17:12
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Q.
09:17:18
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to you?
09:17:21
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A.
09:17:26
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or this exhibit, Ms. Stevens in the July 25, 2006
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section of this exhibit says, in I believe the third
09:17:40
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sentence, "I'd like to talk to you about whether we
09:17:42
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should look at another company for your professorship."
09:17:47
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She says that, "Intel is stating they would only be able
09:17:50
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to make 50K." Again, and she wanted to go somewhere else
09:17:54
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to support this professorship.
09:17:59
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back to her on August 9 saying well, if it's -- it's not
Object to the form.
-- you asked if I did that.
I
At the time of
And if you see the top of this exhibit you
gave me, I corresponded with Ms. Eileen Galinski in 2008
And you can see in those
So I didn't know what
Why was the Intel professorship so important
Well, if you look at the bottom of that e-mail
Can you see I responded
16
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:18:03
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all about the money.
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with the microelectronic engineering department like
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many of our affiliates do.
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there are other things besides just the money besides
09:18:17
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just the 50K.
09:18:20
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Q.
What?
09:18:20
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A.
Well, what I've said is they hire our
09:18:23
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students.
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companies on developing engineering courses.
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is a member of the semiconductor research corporation
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called SRC.
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industrially -- industrial partners of SRC, has helped
09:18:45
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support an SRC research project.
09:18:49
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out to Ms. Stevens that there are other things that
09:18:51
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Intel does besides just this 50K they provide to us.
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09:18:58
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09:19:02
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09:19:06
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August 9 correspondence I had with Ms. Stevens, I've
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said that Intel has directed customization funding for
09:19:36
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over $300,000 between 2007 and 2009.
09:19:41
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money; that was money from the Semiconductor Research
09:19:42
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Center, SRC.
Q.
Intel does some important things
And I suggested to her that
I work with Intel among other groups and
And Intel
And Intel, along with several other
So I -- I was pointing
Other than what you said in that document,
were there any other reasons it was important to you?
A.
I think I've -- in 2006 I think I stated that
pretty well, as I can recollect.
I would also like to point out that in that
That was not Intel
17
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:23:51
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industrial affiliates and asks them for contribution to
09:23:54
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the engineering program.
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to ask them for this contribution.
09:24:00
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very common.
09:24:05
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asking Intel for a gift.
09:24:19
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09:24:25
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09:24:27
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09:24:32
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09:24:37
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Intel was paying these dues between 2006 and 2008, as we
09:24:43
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see from Exhibit 2.
09:24:48
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internet and the web and all, I'm sure there are legacy
09:24:52
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references to my Intel professorship that go beyond
09:24:57
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2007.
09:24:58
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09:25:01
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09:25:09
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09:25:12
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09:25:13
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Q.
So you lost this and nobody told you?
09:25:16
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A.
Sounds odd, but yes, that's the way it --
09:25:18
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09:25:20
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Q.
Wow.
09:25:21
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A.
Well, let me say this.
09:25:24
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09:25:29
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Q.
She's telling me she's going
That's -- that's
It's not unusual at all.
She would be
Now, after you lost this title of Intel
professor, did you keep on using it?
A.
I believe I may have in 2008.
Again, I wasn't
completely aware of what had been going on, whether
Q.
Also, there are the nature of the
Well, so when did you find out that you didn't
have this title anymore?
A.
I believe in 2008 time frame, but I can't -- I
can't recall exactly.
that's the way it transpired.
support.
Q.
We lost the financial
And I wasn't aware of that.
But you kept the title?
21
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
09:25:31
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not I changed that on my CV or changed that on our web
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page.
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title is.
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this support was.
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It was only in name.
09:25:53
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09:25:55
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MR. HUR:
09:25:56
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THE WITNESS:
09:25:58
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value in this.
09:25:59
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
09:25:59
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Q.
Sure you did.
09:26:04
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A.
I think I -- I told you I kept using it until
09:26:07
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about 2008.
09:26:24
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(Whereupon Exhibit 4 marked
09:26:24
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for identification.)
09:26:24
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09:26:35
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09:26:43
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the bottom e-mail here, which is dated March 31, 2009 is
09:26:53
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an e-mail from you to Gene, and it starts, "This is
09:26:58
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Bruce Smith, the Intel Professor of Microelectronic
09:27:03
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Engineering at RIT."
09:27:06
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09:27:07
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A.
Yes, I did.
09:27:10
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Q.
Does that refresh your recollection that you
A.
Well, keeping the title just means whether or
You know, I don't -- beyond that that's all the
Q.
I think that also -- it also goes to what
It was no obligation I had to Intel.
A name that you were proud of?
Object to the form.
Well, as I said before, I found
And you kept using it?
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Exhibit 4 is Smith document produced 11.
And
Did you write that?
22
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
10:30:10
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10:30:12
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Q.
-- isn't he?
10:30:16
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A.
He -- we go back -- if you'll allow me to go
10:30:19
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back to the paragraph we talked about at the top.
10:30:21
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Again, the goal is to reproduce this pattern -- which is
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a pattern, Figure 1 -- "with as high a fidelity as
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possible."
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10:30:37
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10:30:40
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"While the image is significantly closer to the desired
10:30:45
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pattern than the incoherent imaging results, there is
10:30:51
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still significant rounding of the corners of the printed
10:30:53
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features due to the unavailability of the spatial
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frequencies needed to provide sharp corners."
10:31:01
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10:31:04
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desires sharp corners and he does not want round corners
10:31:11
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or rounded corners?
10:31:16
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MR. HUR:
10:31:17
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THE WITNESS:
10:31:18
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inventor -- Professor Brueck is saying that the goal is
10:31:23
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sharp corners and he wants sharp corners.
10:31:25
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
10:31:25
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corners -MR. HUR:
Object to the form.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
And the fidelity would include the sharp
corners.
Q.
Let me read the entire sentence.
"While" --
Do you agree that what he's saying is he
Q.
Object to the form.
I would agree that the
And -44
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
11:37:57
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provide a multiplication of the individual images that
11:38:01
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have been operated on independently with the nonlinear
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thresholding responses of the two photoresist layers.
11:38:11
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The composite mask patterns shows substantially right
11:38:15
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angles at the corners as predicted by equation 6 and
11:38:21
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Figure 6B."
11:38:24
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Q.
11:38:27
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question is in all four discussions of Figures 2, 3, 6,
11:38:36
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and 7, Dr. Brueck talks about square corners, sharp
11:38:43
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11:38:49
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11:38:52
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11:38:55
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11:38:58
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you had originally asked me, but I -- I would agree that
11:39:03
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corners -- well-defined sharp corners are discussed,
11:39:17
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yes.
11:39:17
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
11:39:17
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11:39:20
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MR. HUR:
11:39:21
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THE WITNESS:
11:39:23
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corners are addressed in all four of these.
11:39:24
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
11:39:25
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11:39:27
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about increasing pattern density; isn't that also
11:39:31
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correct?
So the answer to my question is yes.
And my
corners, corners; isn't that right?
MR. HUR:
Objection; vague.
Compound.
Asked
and answered.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
I'm not sure that's the question
In all four of those?
Q.
Object to the form.
I think it's true, right sharp
And in none of those discussions does he talk
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JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
11:39:32
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11:39:34
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11:39:37
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reference to increased pattern density in those
11:39:43
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excerpts.
11:40:28
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(Whereupon Exhibit 5 marked
11:40:28
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for identification.)
11:40:28
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11:41:06
9
11:41:09
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which has three patterns on it, which for purposes of
11:41:25
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what we're talking about you can assume those are
11:41:28
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contact poles, printed and a resist.
11:41:46
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imagine that these patterns were formed by an imaging
11:41:53
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tool where the -- which the image is a square hole --
11:42:08
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let me start over again.
11:42:19
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11:42:23
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you do that?
11:42:25
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A.
Okay.
11:42:26
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Q.
Okay.
11:42:30
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numerical aperture from low to high.
11:42:38
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which of these figures would result by doing that?
11:42:43
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11:42:45
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11:42:52
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11:42:56
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MR. HUR:
Vague.
Object to the form.
Compound.
Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS:
As I said before, there is no
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Dr. Smith, I've handed you Smith Exhibit 5,
Now, if you
Assume that the mask has a square hole.
Can
And now we're going to change the
MR. HUR:
Can you tell me
Object to the form.
Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:
Vague.
Outside the scope.
So these -- you have told me
these are features printed in a photoresist, correct?
75
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
11:58:38
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11:58:39
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the specification that talks about increasing pattern
11:58:45
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density.
11:58:48
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there is -- there's a lot in this patent about
11:58:50
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increasing pattern density.
11:58:52
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
11:58:52
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Q.
11:58:55
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asked about.
11:58:55
9
A.
11:58:57
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me because you said most of the time it has to do with
11:59:00
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square corners, so my answer is no.
11:59:40
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11:59:43
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11:59:43
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11:59:47
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transmit more or less spatial frequencies than a high
11:59:52
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numerical aperture imaging tool?
11:59:55
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11:59:56
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12:00:00
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12:00:01
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question?
12:00:03
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sure.
12:00:03
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:00:04
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12:00:08
24
transmit more or less spacial frequencies than a high
12:00:12
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numerical aperture imaging tool?
THE WITNESS:
No.
I think there's plenty in
We haven't looked at it in those sections, but
I didn't ask about that.
I asked about what I
No, I think -- well, no, I think you did ask
Q.
Does a low numerical -- let me start over
again.
Does a low numerical aperture imaging tool
MR. HUR:
hypothetical.
Object to the form.
It's beyond the scope.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
Incomplete
It should -- can you repeat the
I think I understand it but I want to make
Does a low numerical aperture imaging tool
89
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:00:15
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MR. HUR:
12:00:16
2
THE WITNESS:
12:00:19
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situation, we have to talk about the use of that tool.
12:00:21
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So everything else being equal?
12:00:23
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MR. STADHEIM:
12:00:24
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THE WITNESS:
12:00:25
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aperture tool would indeed transmit lower frequencies
12:00:34
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than a high numerical aperture tool.
12:00:36
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:00:36
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12:00:45
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and we could change the numerical aperture and we
12:00:48
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started with A in Figure -- in Smith Exhibit 5, as we go
12:00:58
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from A to B to C, the spatial frequencies being
12:01:05
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transmitted would increase; is that correct?
12:01:10
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12:01:11
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12:01:15
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THE WITNESS:
12:01:22
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you said is a photoresist image.
12:01:27
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these different numerical apertures that you just
12:01:30
20
described have already gone through -- have already been
12:01:36
21
operated on by this photoresist.
12:01:40
22
images that -- and I think I answered this already --
12:01:44
23
that would have resulted from increasing numerical
12:01:46
24
aperture -- everything else being equal -- I would
12:01:49
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suspect that A would be the lowest, C would be the
Q.
Same objections.
So if we set up a hypothetical
Yes.
I would say a low numerical
And so if we had one numerical aperture tool
MR. HUR:
hypothetical.
Object to the form.
Vague.
Incomplete
Scope.
You have shown me what I think
And the images from
So the photoresist
90
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C is the Square on Smith
Ex. 16
(800) 522-7096
Dep. Ex. 5; Brief
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:01:52
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highest numerical aperture, and B would be the results
12:01:55
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from somewhere in between.
12:01:59
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photoresist in this case.
12:02:00
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BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:02:01
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12:02:03
6
12:02:04
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12:02:05
8
MR. HUR:
12:02:06
9
THE WITNESS:
12:02:09
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paper.
12:02:12
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haven't discussed or thought about, then I've got no
12:02:14
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reason to believe it wouldn't be that direction of
12:02:18
13
numerical aperture.
12:02:37
14
12:02:38
15
12:02:39
16
MR. STADHEIM:
12:02:39
17
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
12:02:40
18
12:02:42
19
(Recess taken from 12:02 p.m. to 12:03 p.m.)
12:03:21
20
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
12:03:22
21
12:03 p.m.
12:03:29
22
BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:03:30
23
12:03:37
24
the numerical aperture from low to high and go from A to
12:03:40
25
B to C, the density of the holes doesn't change, does
Q.
The results printed in
Actually, you don't just suspect that; you
actually know that, don't you?
A.
It's hypothetical.
Object to the form.
This is a cartoon on a piece of
So -- unless there's some other things that we
MR. HUR:
Can we go off the record for one
second?
Sure.
Off the record at
12:02 p.m.
Q.
Back on the record at
Now still looking at Exhibit 5.
As we changed
91
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:52:56
1
sentence.
12:52:59
2
frequencies in the x-y plane do result in higher pattern
12:53:02
3
density."
12:53:05
4
on to read "higher spatial frequencies do not
12:53:09
5
necessarily result" -- I'm sorry -- "do not necessarily
12:53:12
6
result in sharper corners or smaller feature size.
12:53:16
7
example, as stated by the applicants during the
12:53:20
8
prosecution history, a feature that is square shaped can
12:53:23
9
have the same spatial frequency as a feature that is
12:53:28
10
round even though the square has sharper corners in the
12:53:31
11
x-y plane than the round feature.
12:53:35
12
larger size can have the same or greater spatial
12:53:37
13
frequency than the smaller sizes -- or smaller
12:53:42
14
features."
12:53:45
15
same declaration is -- paragraph 7 -- "The higher
12:53:53
16
spatial frequency terms represent the finer feature
12:53:55
17
detail." and that's what I'm addressing also in
12:53:59
18
paragraph 10.
12:54:10
19
Q.
12:54:14
20
12:54:21
21
12:54:23
22
also compare fundamental terms of two scenarios and talk
12:54:28
23
about whether one is higher than the other one.
12:54:29
24
12:54:32
25
The part that says, "While higher spatial
That sentence goes on -- that paragraph goes
For
Moreover, features of
And what I think I've said in my -- in that
Okay.
You have the fundamental terms and then
the higher spatial frequency terms; is that right?
A.
Q.
Higher than the fundamental, sure.
But we can
Let's just talk about the fundamental terms
and all the rest of them.
Okay?
124
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12:54:34
1
A.
Fair enough.
12:54:34
2
Q.
Okay.
12:54:42
3
understand higher spatial frequency, the only terms that
12:54:45
4
you take into account are the fundamental terms?
12:54:52
5
MR. HUR:
12:54:52
6
THE WITNESS:
12:54:54
7
paragraph 7 and 10 where it said higher spatial
12:54:56
8
frequency is the finer feature detail.
12:55:01
9
BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:55:02
10
12:55:05
11
12:55:07
12
A.
Exhibit 6?
12:55:07
13
Q.
Yeah.
12:55:13
14
A.
To answer which question?
12:55:17
15
Q.
Well, you answered the question with regard to
12:55:21
16
12:55:23
17
A.
Yes.
12:55:23
18
Q.
And you circled three?
12:55:27
19
A.
Right.
12:55:27
20
Q.
And the rest of them didn't count, right?
12:55:29
21
12:55:31
22
12:55:32
23
12:55:33
24
those three determine or are linked to or are related to
12:55:41
25
pattern density.
Q.
Isn't it the fact that as you
Object to the form.
No.
I just read to you
In Figure 6, what terms did you look at to
determine spatial frequencies?
I'm not sure.
pattern density.
MR. HUR:
Objection.
Mischaracterizes prior
testimony.
THE WITNESS:
I said -- I said in this case
125
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:55:41
1
12:55:41
2
Q.
12:55:44
3
that right?
12:55:45
4
12:55:46
5
12:55:48
6
12:55:50
7
12:55:51
8
12:55:56
9
12:55:59
10
MR. HUR:
12:56:01
11
THE WITNESS:
12:56:02
12
there are two meanings of higher --
12:56:05
13
BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:56:05
14
12:56:09
15
12:56:12
16
12:56:16
17
or all of paragraph 10?
12:56:19
18
of paragraph 10 I'll explain it to you.
12:56:20
19
12:56:23
20
clarifying is that when I'm -- in my question right now
12:56:25
21
when I'm talking about higher spatial frequencies, I
12:56:28
22
mean whatever you meant when you used that term in
12:56:32
23
paragraph 10.
12:56:34
24
A.
12:56:36
25
BY MR. STADHEIM:
And the rest of them didn't impact it; isn't
MR. HUR:
Objection; misstates prior
testimony.
THE WITNESS:
In this scenario, right.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
And pattern density is the way you determine
higher spatial frequencies, right?
Q.
Object to the form.
No, I -- there are two higher --
Higher spatial frequencies as used by you in
paragraph 10 that we've read about five times.
A.
Q.
Right.
All of -- an excerpt from paragraph 10
If you'll allow me to use all
You can use all you want; I'm just -- all I'm
Okay?
Well, there are two -- when we talk about
higher, there are two ways we can talk about higher.
126
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:56:40
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12:56:46
2
12:56:48
3
as you used it in paragraph 10 when you said "in the
12:56:52
4
context of the '998 patent, higher spatial frequencies
12:56:56
5
in the x-y plane do not -- do result in higher pattern
12:57:00
6
density in that plane."
12:57:04
7
spatial frequencies there.
12:57:09
8
12:57:09
9
12:57:10
10
12:57:11
11
12:57:15
12
you circled in Exhibit 6 have no impact on higher
12:57:25
13
spatial frequencies; is that right?
12:57:26
14
MR. HUR:
12:57:28
15
THE WITNESS:
12:57:29
16
MR. HUR:
12:57:29
17
12:57:29
18
12:57:31
19
MR. HUR:
12:57:38
20
THE WITNESS:
12:57:39
21
used higher that I think is consistent with the '998
12:57:45
22
patent.
12:57:47
23
compare.
12:57:52
24
about higher:
12:57:56
25
orders, we can also talk about higher than those
I'm trying to answer your question now.
Q.
I am talking about higher spatial frequencies
A.
As you used the term higher
Right.
MR. HUR:
And what's the question?
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
My question is the terms other than those that
Object to the form.
I didn't say that.
Vague.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
I'm asking that.
Asked and answered several times.
There are two ways that I have
If I -- and you've given me the scenario to
If I compare Figure 1 to Figure 2, we can talk
If we take a look at the fundamental
127
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
12:57:58
1
fundamental orders for any individual figure.
12:58:01
2
BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:58:01
3
Q.
Which one applies to the claim language?
12:58:05
4
A.
They -- they both would.
12:58:15
5
Q.
When you used the term "higher spatial
12:58:17
6
frequencies," in the sentence that we've read
12:58:21
7
ad nauseam, did you have something in mind as to what
12:58:26
8
you meant?
12:58:27
9
A.
Yes, I did.
12:58:30
10
Q.
And which of these two higher spatial
12:58:32
11
12:58:34
12
MR. HUR:
12:58:35
13
THE WITNESS:
12:58:37
14
got two parts.
12:58:38
15
BY MR. STADHEIM:
12:58:38
16
Q.
12:58:41
17
that I read.
12:58:43
18
A.
And you won't let me include the second part.
12:58:49
19
Q.
Let's back up.
12:58:50
20
12:58:52
21
for a while.
12:58:54
22
line.
12:58:57
23
lunch?
12:58:58
24
MR. STADHEIM:
12:58:58
25
MR. HUR:
frequencies did you have in mind when you said that?
Object to the form.
All of them.
This sentence has
So that -- I'm talking about the first part
MR. HUR:
Rolf, I mean you've been going along
I appreciate you may want to finish this
But when do you think we'll be able to break for
It's already -Very shortly.
-- 1:00.
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JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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1
12:59:12
2
12:59:14
3
patent, higher spatial frequencies in the x-y plane do
12:59:17
4
result in higher pattern density in that plane," when
12:59:22
5
you said that, what were you referring to, when you
12:59:27
6
said, "higher spatial frequencies"?
12:59:30
7
12:59:31
8
12:59:32
MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Very shortly.
When you said "In the context of the '998
A.
For that part of that sentence you're asking
9
Q.
That part of that sentence.
12:59:33
10
A.
For that part of the sentence it is the
12:59:35
11
fundamental orders becoming higher in frequency that
12:59:40
12
correlates to a higher pattern density.
12:59:43
13
that means.
12:59:45
14
Q.
12:59:49
15
number 1 of Exhibit 6, all the spatial frequency terms
12:59:55
16
other than the three that you've circled have no impact
12:59:59
17
on higher spatial frequencies; isn't that correct?
13:00:02
18
13:00:04
19
13:00:07
20
13:00:08
21
13:00:08
22
13:00:08
23
13:00:08
24
13:00:11
25
me?
A.
That's what
That's what I meant by that.
Okay.
And in that context, as we look at
In the context of that part of that paragraph.
The rest of that paragraph, though, I'm addressing that.
Q.
Exactly.
MR. HUR:
Object to the form --
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
The answer's yes?
MR. HUR:
-- it's vague.
It's an incomplete
hypothetical.
129
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:17:10
1
above the surface?
14:17:11
2
MR. HUR:
14:17:12
3
Mischaracterizes testimony.
14:17:16
4
14:17:18
5
14:17:18
6
Q.
The color black as opposed to the color white.
14:17:21
7
A.
This isn't a black fill.
14:17:24
8
This figure shows outlines.
14:17:27
9
depicts black and white.
14:17:30
10
Q.
How do you know that?
14:17:31
11
A.
Because there's no fill.
14:17:33
12
and all I see is outlines.
14:17:39
13
me that there are lines and spaces depicted here.
14:17:46
14
Q.
If it were black, would it make a difference?
14:17:49
15
A.
If it were black it wouldn't show what the
14:17:51
16
picture intends to show.
14:17:54
17
the difference between the outline of a photoresist
14:17:56
18
pattern in solid and the outline of the masked dash.
14:18:00
19
they're filled in, you wouldn't be able to recognize one
14:18:04
20
over the other.
14:18:05
21
14:18:08
22
14:18:13
23
14:18:14
24
Dr. Mack's book as I was finding examples that showed
14:18:23
25
black-and-white-filled lithography patterns.
Object to the form.
THE WITNESS:
Black in what sense?
I said --
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
This is an outline.
This isn't a figure that
This is a figure that --
I'm looking at it
I don't think you can tell
This picture intends to show
Let me ask you this:
If
When you prepared your
declaration, did you look at this figure?
A.
I'm sure I did.
I looked through most of
146
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:18:28
1
14:18:29
2
14:18:33
3
14:18:36
4
14:18:38
5
Q.
The answer --
14:18:38
6
A.
It's a different --
14:18:39
7
Q.
The answer to my question is yes?
14:18:41
8
A.
Can you ask your question again.
14:18:42
9
Q.
You chose not to include this figure in the
14:18:44
10
14:18:49
11
14:18:52
12
14:20:17
13
(Whereupon Exhibit 9 marked
14:20:17
14
for identification.)
14:20:17
15
14:20:32
16
14:20:41
17
patent, number 5,067,002.
14:20:55
18
patent that Intel is relying on as part of its
14:21:06
19
allegation that the patent here in suit is invalid.
14:21:18
20
14:21:38
21
A.
I see that.
14:21:38
22
Q.
And look at reference number 92 and also look
14:22:00
23
14:22:06
24
14:22:07
25
Q.
And you chose not to include this figure in
your declaration exhibit; is that right?
A.
It's not a figure that shows black-and-white
filling.
exhibit to your declaration; isn't that right?
A.
I think Dr. Mack's got hundreds of figures.
I've only included a few.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Okay.
I've handed you Exhibit 9 which is a
And this was a -- or is a
Would you please look at Figure 4A.
at column 7, line 61.
MR. HUR:
Counsel, I'm going to object to any
questioning about prior art references.
That is
147
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:28:02
1
14:28:06
2
14:28:08
3
Rolf, that if you're going to ask him a question about
14:28:10
4
this patent, you've got to give him time to review it.
14:28:14
5
92 does cover -- appears, at least on first glance, to
14:28:16
6
cover a whole bunch of parts of that figure.
14:28:26
7
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:28:27
8
14:28:31
9
14:28:34
10
14:28:36
11
14:28:37
12
14:28:39
13
don't know what that is.
14:28:39
14
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:28:40
15
Q.
You'd take an hour to find it out?
14:28:48
16
A.
It might.
14:28:48
17
(Whereupon Exhibit 10 marked
14:28:48
18
for identification.)
14:29:30
19
14:29:38
20
14:29:58
21
number 5,741,625.
14:30:06
22
is relying on in this case for its assertion that the
14:30:10
23
patent-in-suit is invalid.
14:30:15
24
14:30:21
25
white.
MR. HUR:
Q.
This just highlights the point,
So your position is you'll need an hour to
study this patent to see whether that's a hole or not?
MR. HUR:
Well, why don't you give him some
time to start?
THE WITNESS:
Whether to say what that is.
I
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
I've handed you Exhibit 10, which is patent
And this is another patent that Intel
Would you please look at Figure 3D and column
5, line 42, please.
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:30:53
1
14:30:55
2
14:30:56
3
Q.
Do you see 38A in Figure 3D?
14:30:59
4
A.
I see that.
14:31:00
5
Q.
And that is white; is it not?
14:31:05
6
A.
In a -- it appears white, yes.
14:31:09
7
14:31:22
8
14:31:25
9
14:31:26
10
A.
That's a very good point.
14:31:28
11
Q.
So why did you say it's bounded by black?
14:31:31
12
14:31:32
13
one line of a patent he hasn't seen that's on our prior
14:31:36
14
art list.
14:31:39
15
think you've got to give him a fair chance to review the
14:31:42
16
patent if you're going to be asking him questions about
14:31:45
17
it.
14:31:48
18
pretty familiar with.
14:31:55
19
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:31:55
20
14:32:01
21
14:32:02
22
witness -- you should give the witness whatever time he
14:32:04
23
needs to review the patent.
14:32:09
24
14:32:11
25
A.
(Witness reviews document.)
I see that.
But it's
surrounded by -- it's bounded by black.
Q.
If it weren't bounded by black you couldn't
see it, could you?
MR. HUR:
Counsel, again, you're pointing to
It's not a deposition about our prior art.
I
This is not like the '998 that he's, you know,
Q.
Is 38A a hole?
MR. HUR:
Same objections.
THE WITNESS:
I think the
Well, what I've said in my
declaration, I've used the word "convention" and I've
154
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:32:19
1
used the word "typical."
14:32:24
2
through the '625 or '002 patent, I'm not surprised that
14:32:31
3
you could find references that show things contrary to
14:32:35
4
the convention or what I've said is typical.
14:32:39
5
14:32:41
6
any of it; this is the first time I've ever seen it --
14:32:44
7
as I said, 38A is bound -- it's outlined by a dark line.
14:32:49
8
And what you said is well, if it wasn't, you wouldn't
14:32:52
9
know it was there.
14:32:54
10
not a color photograph.
14:32:58
11
it might have a color.
14:33:01
12
clear doesn't necessarily mean it's a hole.
14:33:10
13
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:33:10
14
Q.
It's not a hole, is it?
14:33:11
15
A.
I don't have --
14:33:12
16
MR. HUR:
14:33:13
17
THE WITNESS:
14:33:14
18
it's a hole and now --
14:33:15
19
MR. HUR:
14:33:16
20
THE WITNESS:
14:33:19
21
believe it's anything.
14:33:20
22
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:33:20
23
Q.
14:33:21
24
not a hole?
14:33:22
25
Although I haven't read
For the '625 patent -- although I haven't read
That's exactly the point is this is
If it was a color photograph,
The fact that it's white or
Object to the form -I don't have reason to believe
-- way outside the scope.
-- I don't have reason to
You can't look at that picture and say it's
MR. HUR:
Counsel, that's not fair.
155
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:33:24
1
Objection.
14:33:26
2
fairly review it to fairly answer your question or I'm
14:33:30
3
going to object that it's outside the scope and
14:33:34
4
incomplete hypothetical.
14:33:36
5
14:33:38
6
14:34:35
7
(Whereupon Exhibit 11 marked
14:34:35
8
for identification.)
14:34:35
9
14:34:49
10
14:34:52
11
is patent number 6,022,815.
14:35:00
12
patent that Intel is relying on in this case for its
14:35:07
13
allegation that the patent-in-suit is invalid.
14:35:10
14
14:35:20
15
14:35:53
16
A.
I see that.
14:35:56
17
Q.
Okay.
14:36:00
18
14:36:07
19
A.
I see that.
14:36:09
20
Q.
And then above that you see a layer that is
14:36:14
21
white, 220?
14:36:19
22
A.
I see that.
14:36:21
23
Q.
And then you see another layer that's hash
14:36:26
24
14:36:29
25
Either you're going to give him a chance to
THE WITNESS:
I could tell you what that is if
I'm given enough time to read the patent.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Okay.
I've handed you Smith Exhibit 11, which
And this is still another
Would you please look at Figures 2F, 1 and 2;
and also Figures 245 -- I'm sorry -- 2C and 2D.
Let's look at Figure 2C.
You see some
hash-marked material that's referenced 230, right?
marked the opposite way; that's 210?
A.
I see that.
156
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
14:51:05
1
14:51:05
2
14:51:09
3
14:51:14
4
A.
14:51:17
5
opaque.
14:52:01
6
(Whereupon Exhibit 12 marked
14:52:01
7
for identification.)
14:52:02
8
14:52:04
9
14:52:10
10
14:52:19
11
A.
I see that, yes.
14:52:22
12
Q.
And you are the Bruce W. Smith that's named
14:52:25
13
the inventor?
14:52:26
14
A.
That's right.
14:52:33
15
Q.
Would you turn to page 3 -- column 3 and at
14:52:38
16
14:52:46
17
A.
Yes, I see that.
14:52:47
18
Q.
It says, "Examples of such sub-lithographic
14:52:50
19
14:53:01
20
A.
I see that.
14:53:05
21
Q.
And the "anti-scattering bars," what does the
14:53:07
22
14:53:12
23
14:53:14
24
14:53:20
25
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
A bar that was clear rather than opaque.
You
mean a hole versus a bar?
No.
I mean a bar that was clear rather than
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
Okay.
is your patent.
I've handed you Exhibit 12.
And this
U.S. 6,881,523 B2; is it not?
That's me.
line 15.
features are scattering bars and anti-scattering bars."
"anti" modify; scattering or bars?
A.
Well, it's -- as I said a few minutes ago,
it's anti, dash, scattering.
Q.
So as -- you're testifying that these bars are
167
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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MR. HUR:
14:53:31
3
THE WITNESS:
14:53:32
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examples from a patent, the '014 patent, which I don't
14:53:47
5
see right away as a reference.
14:53:55
6
14:54:00
7
the '014 patent used the word "scattering" and
14:54:05
8
"anti-scattering," I'm not entirely clear.
14:54:15
9
cases these are bars, consistent with what Dr. Mack has
14:54:20
10
14:54:22
11
14:54:25
12
bars that are two types.
14:54:30
13
scattering bars are dark and the anti-scattering bars
14:54:33
14
are light; they're both bars.
14:54:35
15
14:54:36
16
the bars that I've drawn follow the convention that we
14:54:41
17
talked about where the speckled area is the presence of
14:54:49
18
something and the clear or white area is the absence of
14:54:52
19
something.
14:55:04
20
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:55:05
21
14:55:06
22
14:55:14
23
14:55:16
24
testimony.
14:55:17
25
BY MR. STADHEIM:
anti-scattering?
Objection; vague.
What I've listed here is
The reason why the inventors of this patent,
In both
written about in terms of bars.
What I'm saying here is basically there are
The scatter bar -- the
And you see in the drawings that I've used,
Q.
Okay.
So you're saying that an
anti-scattering bar is still a bar; it's not a hole?
MR. HUR:
Objection; mischaracterizes his
It's vague.
168
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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14:55:17
1
Q.
Is that correct?
14:55:18
2
A.
No, I didn't say that.
14:55:22
3
what I said is that the bar can either be clear or
14:55:25
4
opaque.
14:55:30
5
clear.
14:55:38
6
an opaque feature.
14:55:44
7
14:55:50
8
14:55:54
9
A.
I hope I've already answered that.
14:55:56
10
Q.
Well --
14:55:57
11
A.
It says "anti-scattering," so it modifies
14:56:00
12
scattering.
14:56:02
13
at the '014 patent to see why the inventors chose to use
14:56:07
14
the words "scattering" and "anti-scattering."
14:56:10
15
cases it's a bar.
14:56:11
16
14:56:13
17
is what you said.
14:56:18
18
sub-lithographic features are scattering bars and
14:56:21
19
anti-scattering bars."
14:56:24
20
knew what you were talking about; is that correct?
14:56:26
21
14:56:27
22
MR. HUR:
14:56:28
23
THE WITNESS:
14:56:29
24
I said, "Such as disclosed in U.S. Patent Number
14:56:32
25
5,821,014 (incorporated herein by reference)."
Q.
I didn't know what --
A scatter bar is opaque, an anti-scatter bar is
Which means a bar can be either a hole or a -I think it's all consistent.
My question is what does "anti" modify?
Does
it mean it's not a bar or is it not scattering?
Q.
A.
Technically beyond that we'd have to look
In both
It seems to me what we're talking about here
You said, "Examples of such
I presume when you said that you
Well, it's -Object to form.
Well, let's finish the sentence.
So -169
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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3
were talking about when you said "anti-scattering bar";
14:56:43
4
isn't that right?
14:56:44
5
14:56:46
6
14:56:49
7
14:56:52
8
time and still believe that an anti-scattering bar is
14:56:58
9
not a scattering bar?
14:57:00
10
14:57:05
11
14:57:07
12
14:57:09
13
believe today is that US Patent '014 talks about both,
14:57:13
14
scattering bars and anti-scattering bars.
14:57:16
15
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:57:16
16
Q.
A scattering bar scatters light; does it not?
14:57:21
17
A.
It's not that simple; and the word
14:57:23
18
"scattering" may not be appropriate -- an appropriate
14:57:26
19
name which is why I said it's a name that is more of a
14:57:29
20
marketing name than what is physically taking place.
14:57:31
21
Q.
What do you understand a scattering bar does?
14:57:34
22
A.
A scattering bar influences the defracted
14:57:40
23
energy field of a mask pattern and its projected image
14:57:46
24
through the optical system.
14:57:48
25
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
A.
And my question is you understood what you
I knew that these are examples of
subresolution lithographic features, yes.
Q.
And you're saying that you believed at that
MR. HUR:
Objection; vague.
Object to the
form.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
What I'm saying here and I still
Does an anti-scattering bar do the same thing?
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an anti-scattering bar and a scattering bar does the
14:58:02
5
same thing?
14:58:03
6
MR. HUR:
14:58:04
7
THE WITNESS:
14:58:07
8
14:58:08
9
Q.
That wasn't my question.
14:58:12
10
A.
Okay.
14:58:18
11
14:58:21
12
14:58:23
13
it came out to be, the word "scattering bar" refers to
14:58:29
14
that function?
14:58:32
15
MR. HUR:
14:58:36
16
THE WITNESS:
14:58:38
17
real thing that's used -- forget about the name --
14:58:41
18
carries out that function.
14:58:43
19
that feature, also carries out that same function for a
14:58:51
20
different type of -- different type of mask feature.
14:58:53
21
BY MR. STADHEIM:
14:58:54
22
14:58:57
23
and an anti-scattering bar is one is a bar, and one is a
14:59:03
24
hole or a trench; isn't that right?
14:59:06
25
A.
It will do -- it will carry out a similar
function, yes.
Q.
So whatever scattering is in there for, both
Object to the form.
They're both bars.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Do they do the same thing?
They serve
the same function for different applications.
Q.
Q.
A.
And whether it's a marketing term or however
Objection; vague.
The scattering bar, the physical
The anti-scattering bar,
And the difference between a scattering bar
That's wrong.
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JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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MR. HUR:
14:59:08
2
THE WITNESS:
14:59:09
3
MR. HUR:
14:59:10
4
14:59:11
5
Q.
What's the difference?
14:59:12
6
A.
They are both bars.
14:59:14
7
opaque.
14:59:17
8
Q.
14:59:19
9
14:59:21
10
14:59:23
11
14:59:25
12
Q.
When you say opaque, what do you mean?
14:59:27
13
A.
It means there is -- there is material in the
14:59:37
14
bar.
14:59:46
15
There is something there.
15:00:20
16
Q.
15:00:22
17
declaration.
15:00:39
18
15:00:47
19
you say, "I note that an essential element of Dr. Mack's
15:00:51
20
logic turns on his assumption that the white rectangles
15:00:54
21
of Figure 1 of the '998 patent represent upward
15:00:58
22
projecting 'posts' or 'pillars' rather than 'holes'
15:01:07
23
(openings)," -- italicized -- "and that therefore all
15:01:17
24
white or clear portions of all figures in the patent
15:01:21
25
represent posts rather than holes."
Objection -That's wrong.
-- to form.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
A scattering bar is
An anti-scattering bar is clear.
So what is the difference between
anti-scattering bar and a scattering bar?
A.
I just finished saying that.
is opaque.
A scattering bar
An anti-scattering bar is clear.
There is -- there is opacity, there's opaqueness.
All right.
Let's turn back to your
Looking at the first sentence in paragraph 4
172
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4; that Dr. Brueck is assigning a 1 to the presence of
15:50:20
2
resist and a 0 to the absence of resist?
15:51:05
3
15:51:08
4
But since it's using tau, it may be consistent with
15:51:11
5
that.
15:51:17
6
Q.
15:51:19
7
to study it?
15:51:25
8
A.
15:51:40
9
15:51:42
10
15:53:28
11
THE WITNESS:
15:53:28
12
Okay.
15:53:30
13
MR. STADHEIM:
15:53:50
14
15:53:54
15
15:53:56
16
top of 13, which I think is called equation 6, Brueck
15:54:03
17
describes that as spatial frequency multiplying.
15:54:09
18
the spatial frequencies are multiplied, I would agree
15:54:15
19
that what he shows is this is a function of tau.
15:54:24
20
BY MR. STADHEIM:
15:54:25
21
15:54:30
22
what you already concluded from Figure 4; that he's
15:54:37
23
assigning a 1 to the presence of resist and a 0 to the
15:54:41
24
absence of resist?
15:54:44
25
A.
I'm not sure if that's what that tells me.
Is this a situation where you need more time
Yes.
Give me a few more minutes.
MR. HUR:
I'm also going to object to the
scope.
(Witness reviews document.)
What was your question again?
Read the question, please.
(Record read.)
THE WITNESS:
Q.
A.
If I look at the equation, the
And as
Does that also teach you that -- or confirm
For the case of spatial frequency multiplying,
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2
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3
15:55:36
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A.
Okay.
15:55:37
5
Q.
And specifically lines 32 to 36.
15:55:54
6
A.
Okay.
15:55:56
7
Q.
Is tau being applied there?
15:56:10
8
A.
Well, it says it's a similar calculation, so I
15:56:13
9
15:56:16
10
equation 6.
15:56:22
11
Q.
15:56:25
12
absence of resist in that section?
15:56:40
13
to 36?
15:56:57
14
MR. HUR:
15:58:25
15
THE WITNESS:
15:58:26
16
through the assignment of tau values of 0 and 1,
15:58:30
17
actually, I don't believe that's correct.
15:58:36
18
closer at columns 13, tau is the thresholding function
15:58:40
19
and the values of 0 and 1 are the developed photoresist
15:58:47
20
thickness.
15:58:52
21
thresholding has been applied.
15:58:56
22
values of 0 and 1 are associated.
15:58:59
23
developed photoresist thicknesses, not the values of
15:59:03
24
tau.
15:59:05
25
BY MR. STADHEIM:
I believe that's what he's doing.
Q.
All right.
Now would you turn to column 13 of
the patent, Exhibit 1, please.
assume that means it was similar to what was done in
And is 1 being assigned to resist and 0 to
Column 13, lines 32
Object to the form.
Although we have just stepped
And as I look
Tau of E1X and E2X simply means that that
It doesn't imply that
Those are the
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2
MR. HUR:
15:59:36
3
THE WITNESS:
15:59:37
4
which gives -- which turns the aerial image E1 of X into
15:59:45
5
a steep profile pattern.
15:59:50
6
thresholding.
15:59:55
7
multiplication -- shows us the multiplication of two
15:59:59
8
threshold resists.
16:00:00
9
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:00:14
10
Q.
Does it have a numerical value as its output?
16:00:20
11
A.
Brueck doesn't tell us what the numerical
16:00:22
12
value is or how it's calculated.
16:00:28
13
Figure 5 that tau produces resist features with steep
16:00:36
14
side walls.
16:00:38
15
Dr. Brueck, the value -- the values of those -- that
16:00:47
16
profile, I suspect he would have included it in Figure
16:00:52
17
5B.
16:00:53
18
16:00:56
19
16:00:59
20
A.
Didn't we learn what?
16:01:01
21
Q.
That the 1's and 0's are assigned.
16:01:05
22
A.
No.
16:01:08
23
16:01:10
24
Q.
No, no.
16:01:12
25
Q.
What is the value of the output of tau then?
Q.
Object to the form.
Tau is a thresholding operation,
It's the operation of
So equation 6 says a thresh- -- the
He emphasizes in
If it was important to Brueck --
But didn't we learn this from looking at
Figure 4?
This isn't a plot for assigning 1's and
0's.
But didn't we learn that from Figure
4 already?
191
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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16:01:13
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MR. HUR:
16:01:16
2
THE WITNESS:
16:01:18
3
developed photoresist thickness.
16:01:22
4
photoresist thickness remains, I agree that that in
16:01:26
5
thickness terms is a thickness value of 1.
16:01:30
6
thresholding function.
16:01:35
7
thresholding function operates on an exposure dose.
16:01:39
8
output of that thresholding function is Figure 5B or
16:01:44
9
things that look like that.
16:01:47
10
the patent that shows tau to be numbers.
16:01:55
11
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:01:56
12
16:02:03
13
being assigned to resist and 0 is being assigned to the
16:02:07
14
absence of resist, are you?
16:02:09
15
16:02:13
16
16:02:13
17
16:02:21
18
exercise per paragraph 8 of your second declaration
16:02:26
19
where you assign the 1's and 0's, did you take Figure 4
16:02:30
20
into account?
16:02:32
21
A.
16:02:34
22
thresholding, which eliminates all possibilities but
16:02:38
23
resist being there or resist not being there.
16:02:43
24
16:02:51
25
Q.
Object to the form.
The output for Figure 4 is
If all your
Tau is a
Equation 6 says that that
The
There is no assignment in
You're not disagreeing, however, that 1 is
A.
In terms of normalized thickness, I agree with
Q.
And when you were -- decided to do your
that.
Q.
Figure 4 -- yes, I did.
Figure 4 provides the
Did you -- did you know at the time that you
did the work for paragraph 8 in your declaration that
192
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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16:13:19
1
into said substrate using a combined mask,' not just
16:13:24
2
some of the pattern."
16:13:26
3
16:13:27
4
portion of that statement that says "The claim language
16:13:31
5
makes clear that all of the first pattern and all of the
16:13:34
6
second pattern must be transferred into the substrate"?
16:13:39
7
16:13:42
8
16:14:17
9
16:14:20
10
pattern and all of the second pattern must be
16:15:04
11
transferred, yes.
16:15:05
12
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:15:05
13
16:15:16
14
16:15:23
15
A.
Okay.
16:15:25
16
Q.
And what you have depicted there is what is
16:15:31
17
taught in Figure 8 of the patent-in-suit; isn't that
16:15:37
18
right?
16:15:38
19
A.
That's -- that's right.
16:15:48
20
Q.
And the resulting pattern you depict on the
16:15:53
21
right-hand side where it says "Pattern multiplication";
16:15:58
22
is that right?
16:16:00
23
MR. HUR:
16:16:01
24
THE WITNESS:
16:16:03
25
My question is do you agree with the first
MR. HUR:
Object to the form.
Object to the
scope.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
I agree that all of the first
Now would you look at your second declaration
Exhibit 7, paragraph 8.
the question.
I'm there.
Object to the form.
Can you -- I didn't understand
Can you repeat the question?
197
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
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2
16:16:11
3
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A.
That's right.
16:16:15
5
Q.
Okay.
16:16:19
6
pattern multiplication, that's the result of combining
16:16:24
7
the first and second pattern, correct?
16:16:29
8
A.
That's correct, yes.
16:16:37
9
Q.
And that does not show that all of the first
16:16:39
10
pattern and all of the second pattern is transferred
16:16:43
11
into the substrate; isn't that correct?
16:16:45
12
MR. HUR:
16:17:45
13
THE WITNESS:
16:17:47
14
of the first pattern and the second pattern on top of it
16:17:50
15
is transferred onto the substrate.
16:17:54
16
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:18:03
17
16:18:10
18
above pattern multiplication in your paragraph 8 in
16:18:15
19
Exhibit 11, the portion that is white in the colored
16:18:21
20
picture is what is in the substrate; isn't that correct?
16:18:26
21
A.
That's right.
16:18:27
22
Q.
And none of the rest of it is in the
16:18:28
23
16:18:30
24
A.
That's correct.
16:18:31
25
Q.
So how can you possibly say that all of the
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
You have -- you have three drawings there,
first pattern, second pattern, multiplication.
Q.
And the final of those, the one above
Object to the form.
No.
I think that shows that all
As you look at the final pattern, which is
substrate?
198
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1
first pattern and all of the second pattern was
16:18:38
2
transferred into the substrate?
16:18:44
3
16:18:47
4
first pattern and all of the second pattern transferred
16:18:50
5
into the substrate.
16:18:51
6
16:18:54
7
as set forth in paragraph 8 or Intel's assertion on page
16:19:00
8
24 of its first brief Exhibit 13?
16:19:05
9
16:19:21
10
16:19:28
11
necessary that Figure 8 be covered by claim 6.
16:19:37
12
a discussion of claim 6 in the mask patterns related to
16:19:46
13
claim 6.
16:19:48
14
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:19:48
15
16:19:51
16
16:19:57
17
16:19:59
18
response to Dr. Mack's declaration.
16:20:10
19
assignment -- I'm sorry -- that staggered bars must be
16:20:14
20
opaque.
16:20:47
21
Q.
16:20:53
22
16:20:58
23
A.
Yes, I believe I am.
16:21:04
24
Q.
If one employs that interpretation and one
16:21:16
25
A.
I stand corrected.
Q.
So what is wrong?
MR. HUR:
Is it your interpretation
Object to the form.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
It doesn't show all of the
Well, I don't think it's
This is
Well, if Figure 8 is not covered by claim 6,
why were you talking about it?
A.
It was addressed -- it was to -- it was in
That our
Are you familiar with Intel's interpretation
of combined mask?
uses your assignments of the 1's and 0's, can you get
199
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2
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3
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16:21:35
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I haven't looked at whether or not we can get addition
16:21:38
6
in Figure 8.
16:21:39
7
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:21:46
8
16:21:50
9
16:22:06
10
that in Figure 8, depending on how the numbers are
16:22:19
11
assigned, either you can't get addition or you can't get
16:22:23
12
multiplication; you can only get one of them?
16:22:27
13
16:22:31
14
16:22:32
15
16:22:34
16
"getting."
16:22:38
17
here I've showed multiplication, how it would work in
16:22:41
18
a -- in an embodiment of the '998 patent, particularly
16:22:45
19
the Figure 8 embodiment.
16:22:50
20
can see in Figures 9 and 10 that work with this
16:22:53
21
convention of white areas depicting holes and being
16:22:58
22
represented by the number 1.
16:23:01
23
Figure 9 and 10.
16:23:03
24
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:23:03
25
addition in Figure 8?
MR. HUR:
Object to the form.
It's vague.
Compound.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
Can we get addition in Figure 8?
Did you figure out or did anyone tell you that
if Intel's construction of combined mask were adopted,
MR. HUR:
Objection; vague.
Compound.
Object
to the form.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
I guess I'm not really clear on
I think using this convention that I show
The addition embodiment you
Addition would work for
I'm not talking about 9 and 10.
I'm talking
200
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
16:23:05
1
about 8.
16:23:10
2
figured it out or somebody told you that if Intel's
16:23:18
3
construction of combined mask were adopted, then either
16:23:22
4
you can't get addition in claim 8 or you can't get
16:23:26
5
multiplication, depending on how you assign the 1's and
16:23:30
6
0's?
16:23:30
7
16:23:32
8
16:23:33
9
16:23:34
10
16:23:35
11
16:23:36
12
It's an incomplete hypothetical.
16:23:57
13
THE WITNESS:
16:23:59
14
and multiplication.
16:24:02
15
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:24:03
16
16:24:05
17
multiplication.
16:24:08
18
the 0's in a particular way -- 1's mean one thing and
16:24:15
19
0's mean another thing.
16:24:19
20
can't get addition.
16:24:22
21
can get addition but you can't get multiplication.
16:24:25
22
simply asking you did you figure that out, or did
16:24:28
23
somebody tell that you?
16:24:29
24
16:24:32
25
A.
And I'm asking you a question of whether you
In claim 8.
MR. HUR:
Object.
BY MR. STADHEIM:
Q.
I'm sorry.
MR. HUR:
Q.
Figure 8.
Object to the form.
It's vague.
I believe you can get addition
I didn't ask whether you can get addition and
I'm asking if you assign the 1's and
MR. HUR:
compound.
If you get multiplication, you
If you assign it the other way, you
Objection.
It's vague.
I'm
It's
It's an incomplete hypothetical.
201
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
16:24:39
1
16:24:40
2
answer that question because I think I've answered it.
16:24:43
3
I believe you can get addition and multiplication using
16:24:46
4
this numbering.
16:24:46
5
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:24:47
6
16:24:51
7
is -- is 1 and the dark is 0.
16:24:57
8
both addition and multiplication of Figure 8.
16:25:06
9
what you're saying?
16:25:09
10
16:25:10
11
MR. HUR:
16:25:10
12
THE WITNESS:
16:25:11
13
That's where I don't understand the question.
16:25:16
14
is -- it says "Figure 8 shows an exemplary result" --
16:25:22
15
I'm reading from column 13 -- "of multiplying two
16:25:25
16
patterns."
16:25:39
17
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:25:40
18
16:25:48
19
tell you or did you figure out yourself that if Intel's
16:25:52
20
construction of combined mask were adopted, the result
16:25:57
21
would be that you can either get multiplication or
16:26:03
22
addition, but you can't get both?
16:26:06
23
MR. HUR:
16:26:09
24
vague than the last question.
16:26:11
25
hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
So the numbers you've assigned where the white
A.
Q.
I really don't know how to
You believe you can get
Is that
Figure 8 -Objection to form.
-- is a multiplication figure.
Figure 8
It's multiplication.
Okay.
Let's just talk in general.
Object to the form.
Did anyone
It's even more
It's an incomplete
It's compound.
202
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
BRUCE SMITH - SEPTEMBER 14, 2011
16:26:18
1
16:26:18
2
that you can't get both and asking me if somebody told
16:26:22
3
me that.
16:26:22
4
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:26:23
5
16:26:25
6
whether one, you figured it out yourself or two,
16:26:28
7
somebody told you.
16:26:31
8
happened or it didn't happen.
16:26:33
9
or no or you've forgotten.
16:26:37
10
MR. HUR:
16:26:38
11
that it's compound at least.
16:26:42
12
still compound.
16:26:44
13
It clearly cannot be answered by a yes or no, given
16:26:49
14
now -- especially now how you've just described it.
16:26:53
15
16:26:54
16
I -- that I wasn't told and I don't believe that's a
16:27:06
17
conclusion that I've drawn.
16:27:20
18
BY MR. STADHEIM:
16:27:20
19
16:27:21
20
16:27:32
21
MR. HUR:
16:27:49
22
THE WITNESS:
16:27:51
23
16:28:03
24
16:28:06
25
THE WITNESS:
Q.
I'm asking you a factual question about
Either of those.
That either
The answer is either yes
I think -- I think you've admitted
It's still vague.
It's
It's still an incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:
Q.
So you're asking me to assume
It sounds like something that
Have you considered one way or the other
whether Figure 8 of the patent is covered by claim 6?
Object to the form.
I don't believe that Figure 8 is
covered by claim 6.
MR. STADHEIM:
Let's take a quick break here
and I'll try to wrap things up.
203
JAN BROWN & ASSOCIATES
(415) 981-3498
or
(800) 522-7096
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