Sellify LLC v. Amazon.Com, Inc.

Filing 16

DECLARATION of Robert D. Kaplan in Support re: 11 MOTION for Summary Judgment Notice of Motion.. Document filed by Amazon.Com, Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D (Redacted), # 5 Exhibit E)(Kaplan, Robert)

Sellify LLC v. Amazon.Com, Inc.

Doc. 16 Att. 2

EXHIBIT B
TO THE DECLARATION OF ROBERT D. KAPLAN

(MIRZA DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS)

Dockets.Justia.com

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
Page 1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ______________________________________________________ SELLIFY LLC, Plaintiff, vs. AMAZON.COM INC., Defendant. ) No. 09CV 10268 (JSR) ) ) CONFIDENTIAL ) )

______________________________________________________ DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF MUNEER MIRZA ______________________________________________________ 9:37 a.m. to 11:16 a.m. May 26, 2010 925 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2900 Seattle, Washington

Barbara L. Nelson, CCR Court Reporter
CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 2 Page 4

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: FRANCIS X. DEHN Attorney at Law Smith Dehn, LLP 381 Park Avenue South Suite 713 New York, New York 10016 FOR THE DEFENDANT: JEFFREY WANG Attorney at Law Friedman Kaplan Seiler & Adelman 1633 Broadway New York, New York 10019

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Whereupon, MUNEER MIRZA, having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein and was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. DEHN: Q Sir, will you state your -- I'll ask you to state your name for the record. A Sure. It's Muneer Mirza. Q Okay. And spell your last name, please. A It's M-i-r-z-a. Q Okay. Have you ever had your deposition taken before, sir? A No, sir. Q Okay. Just so you know, I'm going to be asking you a series of questions relating to the case that we're involved in, which is Sellify versus Amazon.com. A Okay. Q If at any time you don't understand one of my questions and need me to rephrase it or make it more clear, please say so. A Okay. Q And the other thing I'll ask you to do is if
Page 5

Page 3

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ______________________________________________________ 9 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 10 ______________________________________________________ 1 1 EXHIBIT: DESCRIPTION: MARKED: 12 No. 1 Message re: Speed, Credit Card Security, 26 13 Privacy 14 No. 2 Message re: Is it Possible to Exclude 40 15 Categories or Products to be Displayed in 16 the Omakase Links? 17 No. 3 Messages re: Link Checker 44 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
______________________________________________________ INDEX OF EXAMINATION ______________________________________________________ WITNESS: PAGE: MUNEER MIRZA Examination by Mr. Dehn 4 Examination by Mr. Wang 58

you would, in all events, wait until I've completed a question before you give your answer and allow the reporter the chance to get that down. A Of course. Q Okay. Well, you'd be surprised. Sometimes witnesses are champing at the bit and want to get that answer out before the question's done. If for any reason you need to stop, take a break, please let us know, okay? We'll do that. A Okay. Q Sir, let me ask you what you do for a living? A I'm a software development manager with Amazon.com. Q And how long have you been in that position, sir? A I have been with Amazon in this position since July 2009. Q Were you employed by Amazon before July of 2009? A No. Q Where did you come from? What did you do before that? A Before that, I was with Microsoft. Q Okay. And how long were you there, sir?

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 22 Page 24

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

what categories of information are embedded in Amazon's URLs, various URLs? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Sure. The information is always -- it starts with www.Amazon.com. After that, it's possible that there's what we call descriptive text, so something to describe what the person is looking at, and then some more information that actually is about the -- if it's a product, the product that's there. Q In some of Amazon's URLs, do you -- sorry. Rephrase the question. In some of Amazon's URLs, do they contain information that identify particular people? A Yes, yes. Q Okay. What sort of information is contained in a URL to identify particular people? A There are potentially a descriptor, an identifier, for example, for the Associates Program. Q Okay. And when you say an identifier for the Associates Program, would an individual associate get a particular identifier, or one identifier for the entire program? A I believe -- I don't know the complete
Page 23

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

on your web page you would choose to put a link to Amazon that people can then click. Q And I take it there's something in it for the associates to do that? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: I think so. I don't know. Q They get -- do they get some form of commissions if they direct traffic to Amazon and people actually -- the user buys something from Amazon? A I think they do get a commission, yes. MR. WANG: You know, Frank, I'm happy to let you ask him some general questions, but Mr. Muneer's here to answer technical questions. MR. DEHN: No, no, no, I understand that. I really do. I just wanted to get that point. And I know the associates people are coming. Q Okay. So back to the ways in which someone can access the Amazon site. So a third party in this case, I guess the associates, would be able to set up a link on their web page and get to the Amazon site that way, okay. Is there any other way that people could access the Amazon.com pages, to your knowledge? A I don't know. Q Okay. Do you know whether Amazon -- Amazon
Page 25

answer to that. I believe the answer is each individual gets their own. Q So other than putting in an Amazon URL directly into your browser and inputting certain information into a search engine that would yield certain links, any other ways that people access the Amazon site? A Yeah, through the associates' links. So someone can click on an associate's link on one of their web pages and go to Amazon. Q Okay. And when you say an associate's link, could you briefly tell us what that is? What is an associate's link? A The link is some associate, I don't know the legal definition of that term, but some associate of Amazon who then directs traffic to Amazon. Q Mm-hmm. And how do they direct traffic to Amazon? How does that work? A They use the link. Q Well, yeah, could you just be a little more descriptive about that? When you say they use a link, I mean, how -- let's say I'm an associate and, for whatever reason, I want to direct traffic to Amazon. How do I do that? A You would have a web page of your own, and

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

engages in business with Google or Yahoo or other search engines to cause sponsored links to come up on web pages when people do searches? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: I don't know. Q Does Amazon do advertising of any kind that contains links to the Amazon web page? A I don't know. Q Okay. Now, we talked before about the links that come up in Google search results or other search engines' search results. If a third party, such as an associate, wanted to create a link on its own page, would Amazon have the capacity to redirect that traffic as it might see fit? A Yes. Q And how would it do that? A We do it today -- my team does it today for one exclusive reason, and that's to protect the availability of the Web site. We do it in cases where the traffic is so enormous, it's typically from people like Internet hackers, who are trying to take down or cause so much load to Amazon's Web sites that it would effectively take it down. We don't do that on a sort of case-by-case basis unless there is something that is very clearly posing a problem for the availability

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 26 Page 28

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

of Amazon's Web site. The reasons we don't do it for a case-by-case basis is sort of load-related. So you know, we would -- for example, there could be tons of links, tons, tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, that we would have to look at and identify does this match this link? If so, we would reject it. We do it -- we don't do it because of latency reasons. So latency is just the time taken to actually serve the page back to the customer. And so for each link that we would be examining, it would add tremendous latency. Q Mm-hmm. A We also do it, like I said, you know, exclusively to protect the availability of the Web site. And so if, you know, there's something going on, we try and make sure that we focus on just protecting the availability of the Web site and not, you know, some smaller subset of a problem. Q Have you had to do that, in fact? Have you had to make some alterations because of hackers that are burdening the Web site? A We have. MR. DEHN: Could you mark that as Mirza 1, please? (Marked Deposition Exhibit Number 1.)
Page 27

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

you might want to read the sentence before it. MR. DEHN: Sure, sure. Q It says, We recommend that you visit your own Web site using a 56k modem and evaluate its performance. So 56k is pretty small stuff these days, isn't it? A It's not the latest. Q Okay, okay. Is there -- in your experience, is there a new conventional wisdom that superseded the ten-second time? A Yes, at Amazon, absolutely. Q Okay. What is the new conventional wisdom with respect to latency, if I'm using the correct term? A It varies across different parts of the site. The goal is somewhere around three seconds. Q Okay. I was -- I had been asking you about the capacity of Amazon to redirect traffic that comes from third party links? A Right. Q And I think you just said that this is something you didn't do on a case-by-case basis, although you would do if you perceived or your team perceived a threat to the site from hackers from
Page 29

Q Mr. Mirza, if you would just take a look at that, I have a couple questions regarding that subject matter. All right, sir. I'll represent this is a document I've received from Amazon's attorneys. The control number is AMZ 000132. Focusing on the first sentence for a second, it says, Customers cite speedy performance as the biggest determinant of their satisfaction with a Web site. Is that statement consistent with your experience at Amazon, sir? A That's correct. Q Okay. Is that what you were referring to when you were talking about the latency? A That's correct. Q Okay. And then the third sentence says, Conventional wisdom is that it should take less than 10 seconds for your site to load. Do you see that sentence? Is that something that, in fact, is, in your experience, is sort of conventional wisdom? If it takes more than ten seconds, the customer is probably out of there? A Yes, sir. MR. WANG: Objection to the form. In ten seconds -- I just think, if you're going to read that,

overburdening and so forth? A That's correct. Q Okay. Well, let me give you a hypothetical situation. Supposing that -- supposing that Company X is a company that has a link on its Web site to an Amazon page, and it created a -- well, and I assume in that case, Company X would have to create the link itself; correct? A Yeah, and put it on their web page. Q Okay. And supposing that Amazon had, for whatever reason, information at its disposal that said the people that access -- the people that access our web pages through the Company X Web site appear to be disproportionately stay-at-home moms. So we want to serve them a web page that offers a lot of products that stay-at-home moms seem to be buying up these days. Is that something that would be possible for Amazon to do? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: Possible? We would have to have some knowledge that they were stay-at-home moms. Q Presumably, you wouldn't do it for irrational reasons, but assuming that this information was available to Amazon, and I'm not at all -- I have no idea how it would get there, but assuming it had

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 46 Page 48

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q I'm sorry, I misspoke. I'm sorry about that. Let me rephrase the question. This associate bought certain keywords from Google, it appears, that caused certain sponsored links to appear. And a user could access the Amazon.com Web site by clicking on the links that appeared in that series of ads. I'll ask you to assume that all that's true. You don't have to accept my version of the facts, but assuming all that is true. A Sure. Q Okay. In your experience, is there anything that Amazon could have done to interrupt the link between -- from the time that the user clicks on the -- you know, clicked on that sponsored link, between that time and the time it came to one of Amazon.com's web pages? A It is possible to do it. As I mentioned earlier, we have a system where we will prevent hackers from trying to overload Amazon's Web site. We don't typically do that sort of work on a case-by-case basis, on a link-by-link basis for the latency, the load reasons and, you know, kind of the scope of the problem, if you will. Q Okay. Let us assume that this particular Amazon associate had a five or six-digit identifying
Page 47

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

in a second to whatever difficulties you see from your point of view. A Sure, sure, sure. Q But what would be the technological process if Amazon had wanted to identify a particular associate as the source of a sponsored link and then say we're going to do something different with that than we usually do with other associates? A My team would create what we call the rule, and that rule would then direct the traffic or direct the link to, if you want, somewhere else. Q Are there -- in the context of Amazon's computing system, are there inherent difficulties in achieving that goal? A Absolutely. Q Okay. And what are they? A Those are the things I mentioned, like -- so latency. Q Let's see if we can just kind of slow down and take them one at a time, so I can ask you about those things in particular. A Sure. Q Latency would be the first issue? A Latency is the biggest one. Q Okay. Please tell me how latency would be
Page 49

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

code. A Okay. Q Would I be correct in assuming that that five or six-digit code would have to appear in the URL of the link so that, at some point in the process, Amazon could figure out who to pay in case the user made a purchase? A I believe so. Q Okay. Would it have been possible for Amazon to create an alternative page or message so that the user, when they clicked on that particular link, Amazon could have identified the source through the identifying number we just talked about and cause this alternative page to show up? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: Possible, absolutely. Q Okay. A But again, we reserve it only for extreme cases. Q I understand that that's your current practice. A Sure, sure, sure, sure. Q If you would, please describe for me the -well, please describe for me the process that would have to occur technologically in order to -- we'll get

affected by a hypothetical effort on Amazon's part to redirect traffic in this way? A So as I mentioned, we would add a rule to our system to direct the traffic. Each rule is extra computation that the system would have to do, and extra computation means it's -- it takes longer to actually serve the page back to the customer. Q Okay. Do you have evidence as far as how -by how much the latency period would be increased if you did something like this? A With one rule, it would be about one millisecond. Q Is one millisecond significant in terms of latency? A One -MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: Sorry. MR. WANG: No, that's okay. THE WITNESS: One millisecond is not significant. Q So I take it that when you have expressed concerns regarding the latency period, there are -there's something motivating your concern for reasons other than this one millisecond? A That's correct.

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 50 Page 52

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q Okay. And where do those concerns derive from? A The concern is from the fact that one rule is typically never it. It always -- by building this capability, what we end up with are many, many rules. And so you can see that 1,000 rules would add one second, and one second is a very, very, very big deal to the customer impact. Even 500 rules and half a second is a very, very big deal. Actually, to be honest with you, 50 rules and 50 milliseconds back to the customer is a really, really big deal. Q What's the basis for your view that it's never just one rule? A The experience, basically. So whenever, for example, we build the system, we build it for hackers. Hackers come to us from a bunch of different things. Pardon me. Things isn't a good qualifier. A bunch of different URLs that they send to us. Q Uh-huh. A And then internally, you know, we build a generic solution that people can use. So in the case you gave, you know, they -- I think you mentioned a five-digit associate ID or associate name. With that, you know, there are many, I don't know how many, but many associate IDs. And so if we had to block more
Page 51

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

There is just the one system, and it's mine. Q Okay. A Or my team's. Q Okay. So that we're clear on this, so the type of rule you would have to create to block a particular associate or renegade associate, if you would, is the same rule or same sort of rule you'd have to create to block a hacker; correct? A That's correct. Q Okay. And do you have an individual rule for each one of those hackers? A At present, no, we don't. Q Okay. Do you have one rule that prevents all those hackers? A No. Q Okay. How does it work, then? How do you -- what, in terms of blocking hackers -- and again, this is all confidential. A Sure, sure, sure. Q How do you determine whether it's going to be a unique rule or not a unique rule? A We identify, you know, if there's something in the link, for example, something in the URL that was requested, and then we would create one or more rules.
Page 53

than 50, that would be problematic for our customers, all of our customers, not just the people visiting from that link. It would be everybody who visited Amazon.com would experience this penalty. Q How many -- how many, if you know, how many hackers, approximately, do you have to block? A I don't know. I can't say that I've met them all. Q No, I'm not assuming you've met them. A Sorry. Q But, I mean, are we talking about more than 50? A In the most severe cases, yes, it has been more than 50. Q And I think you said you -- internally, you have a more general system to block hackers? Is that what you testified? A It's the same system. Q Okay. Describe, for instance, if you will, how the system to block hackers would be different from blocking a particular, you know, third party or associate who likes to create wacky sponsor links? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: It would be the same system. So there wouldn't be any differences between it.

Q Okay. Do you have an idea as to approximately how many rules you've created to defeat hackers? A It's in the hundreds. We don't currently keep all of these rules active. So we employ them only when there is the availability impact to the Web site. And then, when there is no such threat, we turn those rules off, so as to improve the customer experience. Q Sure. How do you determine whether this threat exists at a particular time? A There's a lot of traffic that comes to the Web site. So lots of requests. Q So it would be fair to say, so you see the traffic jump, and when you see traffic jump, someone says uh-oh, and you then activate these rules? A That's correct. Q So at the time I was ordering Christmas gifts and things were a little slow, it might have been you had a hacker problem? A It's possible. Q In your experience, has anyone looked into the possibility of redirecting traffic that originates from one or more associates for one reason or another? MR. WANG: Objection to the form.

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 54 Page 56

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

THE WITNESS: Sorry. Do you mean apart from my team? Q No. I mean has anyone, to your knowledge, ever assessed the circumstances under which you might block traffic or redirect traffic that originated from one or more associates? A I honestly don't know. Q Okay. How is it that you came to make an assessment of the impact of redirecting traffic that originated from a particular associate? A Sorry. Q Sorry, that was convoluted. I don't even want to ask that question. A I'm not sure what you mean. Q Fine. You clearly have an opinion as to the difficulties inherent in creating rules to block a particular associate in the circumstances we've been discussing today; right? A Correct. One particular associate. Q Okay. How did you come to consider this issue? MR. WANG: He's not asking you about conversations with Counsel. I think he's just -- I think you're just asking why he believes that's the case? If not, maybe you could re-ask the question,
Page 55

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

attention that any other associate caused inappropriate links to appear and should therefore be blocked? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: That's correct. Q Okay. From the standpoint of someone who's worked in the IT business now for a while, assume that someone at Amazon were to come to you and said the following: We have an associate who buys up keywords on Google and causes certain sponsor links to appear that are not only inappropriate, but with which we don't want to be identified. We can cut off his payments, but the ads still appear. What can we do to see that we're not associated with this guy anymore, because he puts the URL Amazon.com there and, frankly, we don't like the association. Would you have -- are you aware of any way in which that association could be broken? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. You're asking him based on his experience in IT, so not on behalf of the company? Just in his personal experience? MR. DEHN: Yeah. MR. WANG: I'm going to object to this as beyond the scope of this deposition, as well, and
Page 57

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

because it sounds like you're just asking him -Q Well, let's ask that question first and see where -- yeah. Why do you believe it's the case? A So for me, it's not about associates or anything like that; it's about any one rule. Any one rule is expensive. As I mentioned, you know, the latency, the extra computation, or what we refer to as a load. Also the, you know, scope of the problem. I think there are teams at Amazon who are, you know, supposed to deal with any one problem. You know, those teams should deal with that problem. My team is exclusively about, you know, ensuring the availability of our Web sites. And so when something, you know, is not -- when the scope isn't, you know, the availability of our Web site, then we, you know, we politely decline to help out. We push back on a lot of other teams. Q When you say you push back, are you saying when other teams would like to have certain rules created, you tend to say no? A For any one individual problem, yeah, unless they can demonstrate that there's an availability impact to our Web sites. Q Okay. When you say for any one particular problem, I take it that it has not come to your

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

object just in general to the form. Q Okay. You can answer, if you know. If you have an opinion. A Sorry. Was the question that this was appearing -- a link appearing on someone else's Web site? Q In other words, someone has caused sponsored links to appear on Google. A On Google. Q And let me see if I can streamline this a little bit. Some third party is causing sponsored links to appear on Google that create an association or seem to create an association between them and Amazon, which we really don't like, okay? A Sure. Q If one of your colleagues at Amazon came to you and said, Is there something we can do so these ads won't appear anymore or we could somehow make people understand that this is not us, okay, would you have any ideas as to how that could be achieved? MR. WANG: Note my objections. THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that anything can be done. Q Supposing that such a sponsored link were directly disparaging to Amazon. Is there anything

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]

MUNEER MIRZA 5/26/2010
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 58 Page 60
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that could be done to disassociate Amazon from that particular link? MR. WANG: Objection to the form. THE WITNESS: To clarify, you mean technically? Like is there a technical solution? Q Yes, I confine that to your experience, yes. A Yeah. If the link does not appear on Amazon or was created by Amazon, then there's nothing that we can do. Q Nothing you could do short of creating a special rule? A Assuming the traffic, when someone clicked on it, it came to Amazon. Q Yes, yes. A Yeah, if it came to Amazon, we could create a rule. MR. DEHN: I think I'm done. I just want to take a two-minute break. (Recess taken from 11:08 to 11:14 a.m.) MR. DEHN: Okay. That's it. Nothing further. MR. WANG: I have one -- I think one question. E X AMINATION
Page 59

___________________ Muneer Mirza

STATE OF WASHINGTON ) ) COUNTY OF KING ) SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this ______ day of _____________________, 2010.

__________________________________ Notary Public in and for the State of Washington, residing at ________

Page 61

BY MR. WANG: Q Mr. Mirza, Mr. Dehn has asked you a number of questions today where he's asked you if something is possible. And to some of those, you've answered that -- answered that it is. What do you mean by that? A For the best of my recollection, the questions about whether something was possible was, you know, not in terms of Amazon, but in terms of computer science. Someone could write a program. Someone at Amazon could write a program that addressed whatever it was that be the case. Q And when you answered those questions, was it -- were you making a judgment about whether -- the expense of doing such an option? A No, sir. Q Or what about the effort that would go into it? A No, sir. MR. WANG: Okay. No questions. MR. DEHN: Okay. (Signature reserved.) (Deposition concluded at 11:16 a.m.)

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

CERTIFICATE STATE OF WASHINGTON ) ) COUNTY OF KING ) I, the undersigned Notary Public in and for the State of Washington, do hereby certify: That the annexed and foregoing deposition of each witness named herein was taken stenographically before me and reduced to typewriting under my direction; I further certify that the deposition was submitted to each said witness for examination, reading and signature after the same was transcribed, unless indicated in the record that the parties and each witness waive the signing; I further certify that all objections made at the time of said examination to my qualifications or the manner of taking the deposition, or to the conduct of any party, have been noted by me upon said deposition; I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties to said action, or a relative or employee of any such attorney or counsel; I further testify that I am not in any way

CONTINENTAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. [phone]