Irving H. Picard v. Saul B. Katz et al

Filing 90

DECLARATION of DANA M. SESHENS in Support re: 79 MOTION for Summary Judgment.. Document filed by Charles 15 Associates, Charles 15 LLC, Charles Sterling LLC, Charles Sterling Sub LLC, College Place Enterprises LLC, Coney Island Baseball Holding Company LLC, Estate of Leonard Schreier, FFB Aviation LLC, FS Company LLC, Fred Wilpon Family Trust, Arthur Friedman, Ruth Friedman, Iris J. Katz and Saul B. Katz Family Foundation, Inc., Judy and Fred Wilpon Family Foundation, Inc., Amy Beth Katz, David Katz, Dayle Katz, Gregory Katz, Howard Katz, Iris Katz, 157 J.E.S. LLC, Air Sterling LLC, BAS Aircraft LLC, Jason Bacher, Bon Mick Family Partners LP, Bon-Mick, Inc., Brooklyn Baseball Company LLC, C.D.S. Corp., Michael Katz, Saul B. Katz, Todd Katz, Katz 2002 Descendants' Trust, Heather Katz Knopf, Natalie Katz O'Brien, Mets II LLC, Mets Limited Partnership, Mets One LLC, Mets Partners, Inc., Minor 1 (REDACTED), Minor 2 (REDACTED), L. Thomas Osterman, Phyllis Rebell Osterman, Realty Associates Madoff II, Red Valley Partners, Robbinsville Park LLC, Ruskin Garden Apartments LLC, Saul B. Katz Family Trust, Michael Schreier, Deyva Schreier Arthur, See Holdco LLC, See Holdings I, See Holdings II, Sterling 10 LLC, Sterling 15C LLC, Sterling 20 LLC, Sterling Acquisitions LLC, Sterling American Advisors II LP, Sterling American Property III LP, Sterling American Property IV LP, Sterling American Property V LP, Sterling Brunswick Corporation, Sterling Brunswick Seven LLC, Sterling Dist Properties LLC, Sterling Equities, Sterling Equities Associates, Sterling Equities Investors, Sterling Heritage LLC, Sterling Internal V LLC, Sterling Jet II Ltd., Sterling Jet Ltd., Sterling Mets Associates, Sterling Mets Associates II, Sterling Mets LP, Sterling Pathogenesis Company, Sterling Third Associates, Sterling Thirty Venture LLC, Sterling Tracing LLC, Sterling Twenty Five LLC, Sterling VC IV LLC, Sterling VC V LLC, Edward M. Tepper, Elise C. Tepper, Jacqueline G. Tepper, Marvin B. Tepper, Valley Harbor Associates, Kimberly Wachtler, Philip Wachtler, Bruce N. Wilpon, Daniel Wilpon, Debra Wilpon, Fred Wilpon, Jeffrey Wilpon, Jessica Wilpon, Judith Wilpon, Richard Wilpon, Scott Wilpon, Valerie Wilpon, Wilpon 2002 Descendants' Trust, Robin Wilpon Wachtler. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C PART 1, # 4 Exhibit C PART 2, # 5 Exhibit D, # 6 Exhibit E, # 7 Exhibit F, # 8 Exhibit G, # 9 Exhibit H, # 10 Exhibit I, # 11 Exhibit J, # 12 Exhibit K, # 13 Exhibit L, # 14 Exhibit M, # 15 Exhibit N, # 16 Exhibit O, # 17 Exhibit P, # 18 Exhibit Q, # 19 Exhibit R, # 20 Exhibit S, # 21 Exhibit T, # 22 Exhibit U, # 23 Exhibit V, # 24 Exhibit W, # 25 Exhibit X, # 26 Exhibit Y, # 27 Exhibit Z, # 28 Exhibit AA)(Seshens, Dana)

EXHIBIT W

In The Matter Of:
SIPC v. BIMIS

PETER S. STAMOS
August 19,2010

BENDISH REPORTING, INC.
271 Route 46W - Suite D204
Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
973.244.1911
business@bendish. com

Original File 08-19-10 STAMOS txt

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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010
10:48:44

1

of the committee members.

10:48:45

2

10:48:47

3

10:48:59

4

10:49:03

5

10:49:09

6

17th, 1997.

10:49:09

7

wife's birthday.

10:49:09

8

10:49:12

9

10:49:14

10

10:49:18

11

10:49:21

12

10:49:23

13

10:49:28

14

Q.

10:49:32

15

do next?

10:49:33

16

10:49:37

17

two or three years.

10:49:40

18

and eventually on a part-time basis.

10:49:44

19

10:49:49

20

partners formed Sterling Stamos in June of '02,

10:49:52

21

correct?

10:49:53

22

10:49:54

23

formally incorporated on June 17th, 2002, five years

10:49:59

24

later.

10:50:03

25

with our own capital on July 1st, 2002.

Q.

I appreciate that.
I want to back up to SAl.

And I

believe you sold SAl in around 1997; is that right?
A.

Q.

That date I do know.

It was June

The reason I know that date, it's my

How fortuitous.

A.

That was the date that the

transaction was closed, June 17th, 1997.
Q.

And why did you sell SAl?

A.

Because I was given an offer from

Perot Systems that was quite attractive.
And after you sold SAl, what did you

A.

Q.

I continued to be employed at SAl for
Initially on a full-time basis

And you formed, you and the Sterling

A.

Yes.

That I believe was also

And I believe we opened for business on --

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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010
11 :09:22

1

Sterling Stamos registering as an investment

11 :09:25

2

advisor?

11 :09:25

3

A.

11 :09:26

4

question.

11 :09:29

5

11 :09:33

6

Mr. Madoff's concerns were with Sterling Stamos

11 :09:37

7

registering as an investment advisor?

11 :09:40

8

11 :09:42

9

the concern that our registration, that is Sterling

11 :09:45

10

Stamos, would require that Mr. Katz disclose all of

11:09:50

11

his investment holdings, including all business

11 :09:54

12

relationships with Mr. Madoff.

11:09:57

13

11:10:02

14

11:10:07

15

11:10:10

16

11:10:12

17

11:10:14

18

tell you?

11:10:15

19

A.

11:10:18

20

concern that Mr. Madoff was concerned about

11:10:23

21

confidentiality and things of that nature.

11:10:26

22

11:10:28

23

11:10:30

24

I do recall trying to ascertain what the concerns

11:10:34

25

were.

Q.

A.

Q.

I don't know the answer to that
You'd have to ask Mr. Katz.
What did Mr. Katz tell you that

What I recall is Mr. Katz expressing

Why did that cause Mr. Katz concern?
MR. GOUDISS:

A.

I object.

Go ahead.

Are you asking me what he thought or

asking what he said to me?
Q.

Q.
A.

That's a valid point.

What did he

What I recall is his expressing his

Anything else?
I don't recall anything specifically.

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Q.

How did you corne to invest with

12:26:30

2

12:26:31

3

12:26:33

4

12:26:35

5

12:26:39

6

12:26:41

7

12:26:44

8

investor, that Mr. Katz and his partners had

12:26:48

9

invested with Mr. Madoff for many years and that

12:26:50

10

they had had stable, consistent returns for many

12:26:54

11

years with him.

12:26:55

12

Q.

12:26:58

13

12:26:58

14

12:26:59

15

12:27:00

16

12:27:02

17

my capital with Mr. Madoff and that I continue to

12:27:05

18

manage a portion of the capital myself.

12:27:09

19

12:27:12

20

12:27:14

21

12:27:17

22

12:27:20

23

that you should invest with Madoff, what did you

12:27:25

24

know about Bernie Madoff?

12:27:28

25

Madoff at that time?
A.

Mr. Katz suggested that I invest with

Mr. Madoff.
Q.

And what did Mr. Katz tell you about

investing with Madoff?
A.

Told me that he was a very good

Did he say anything else in that

initial discussion?
A.

Q.
A.

Q.

Yes.
What else did he say?
He suggested that I put a portion of

And this is in the 1999 time frame

welre talking about?
A.

Q.

A.

199,

199, 2000, 2001.

Before Saul Katz suggested to you

I donlt believe I knew anything about
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12:35:22

1

A.

12:35:25

2

12:35:27

3

12:35:30

4

12:35:36

5

time frame that I

12:35:40

6

Perot Systems, which was about a year or two.

12:35:43

7

donlt recall the exact time frame.

12:35:45

8

12:35:48

9

12:35:56

10

12:36:03

11

12:36:08

12

12:36:13

13

a lunch that I

12:36:18

14

sometime in the either late 190s or early 2000.

12:36:25

15

12:36:27

16

12:36:29

17

12:36:30

18

12:36:32

19

12:36:35

20

was David who suggested that it would make sense for

12:36:38

21

us to consider creating a company with our two

12:36:43

22

fathers.

12:36:45

23

Q.

12:36:50

24

at that lunch concerning forming a partnership

12:36:53

25

between the two families?

Q.

Yes.
And for how long did you provide

consulting services after the merger?
A.

Q.
A.
Q.

I believe it was for contemporaneous
continued to be an employee for
I

So welre in like late 190s?
Late 190s.
When did the idea of you partnering

with the Katz or Wilpon families first arise?
A.

Q.

I

believe it first arose over lunch,

had with Saul Katzls son, David Katz,

And who raised the issue, was it you

or was it Mr. Katz?
A.

Q.
A.

Youlre referring to David Katz?
Yes.
I

donlt recall who did.

I

believe it

And what else did Mr. David Katz say

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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010

A.

I recall two things that he said.

12:36:55

1

12:36:58

2

The first was the nature of our two families, how he

12:37:05

3

respected and I believe he used the word loved my

12:37:09

4

father, and how I respected and loved his father,

12:37:12

5

and how the two of us respected and loved each

12:37:18

6

other.

12:37:21

7

work together, two fathers, two sons.

12:37:24

8

first thing I recall him saying.

12:37:26

9

12:37:28

10

was his concern that sometime in the future if his

12:37:37

11

father were no longer alive and his father were, in

12:37:40

12

his words, in heaven looking down on him and saw

12:37:43

13

that they had close to 100 percent of their

12:37:45

14

investable assets in one single manager, that Saul,

12:37:50

15

his father in heaven, would reprimand David for that

12:37:56

16

fact.

12:37:58

17

12:38:00

18

single manager with close to 100 percent of the

12:38:02

19

assets, you1re referring to Mr. Madoff?

12:38:05

20

12:38:06

21

the phrase he used was, investable or liquid assets

12:38:09

22

or investment assets, but a substantial portion of

12:38:12

23

their assets.

12:38:16

24

Q.

12:38:20

25

And that it would be wonderful to be able to
That1s the

The second thing I recall him saying

Q.

A.

And when you1re referring to the one

And I believe it

I don1t know what

Yes.
Yes, thank you.
What did you say in response to those
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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010

two points?

12:38:23

1

12:38:25

2

12:38:30

3

12:38:34

4

12:38:39

5

any other reasons that Mr. David Katz raised for

12:38:45

6

joining an investment partnership between the two

12:38:47

7

families?

12:38:48

8

A.

12:38:49

9

12:38:57

10

12:39:00

11

prior to that lunch, his concerns with his family

12:39:07

12

having substantially all or all of their liquid

12:39:09

13

asset investments in Madoff?

12:39:12

14

12:39:13

15

to that one.

12:39:15

16

possible we could have had an earlier conversation,

12:39:19

17

but that's the one I recall.

12:39:23

18

12:39:25

19

this lunch that welre discussing right now, did you

12:39:30

20

corne to the conclusion that you believe that the

12:39:32

21

Katz and Wilpon families had -- let me rephrase.

12:39:36

22

12:39:39

23

did you know that the Katz and Wilpon families had

12:39:42

24

substantially all or all of their liquid assets in

12:39:45

25

Madoff?

A.
second point,
Q.

On the first point, I agreed.

On the

also agreed.

I

And on those two points, were there

I

don't recall anything other than

those two general points.
Q.

A.

Q.

Did Mr. David Katz raise with you,

I

don't recall a conversation prior

That's the first one

I

recall.

It's

Before the lunch with David Katz,

Before that lunch with David Katz,

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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010
02:12:05

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Q.

02:12:09

2

to what managers to invest in, did Mr. Saul Katz

02:12:12

3

provide any other information concerning investing?

02:12:18

4

02:12:20

5

02:12:26

6

02:12:31

7

02:12:34

8

02:12:38

9

02:12:39

10

02:12:41

11

02:12:43

12

advice to look for managers who hit, in his words,

02:12:46

13

singles and doubles, not triples and home runs, for

02:12:50

14

investors who generated stable, consistent returns.

02:12:56

15

02:13:02

16

02:13:04

17

02:13:10

18

02:13:13

19

you characterize Mr. Katzls involvement in the

02:13:16

20

investment aspect of Sterling Stamos?

02:13:19

21

02:13:23

22

02:13:25

23

02:13:26

24

02:13:29

25

A.

Other than providing information as

Can you be more clear about what you

mean by information?
Q.

What investment advice did Saul Katz

provide you at this point in time?
A.

I can think of an example of the kind

of advice that he gave me.
Q.
A.

Q.
A.

Okay.

Please give me that example.

One example that

A.

Q.

recall was his

Did he provide you any other advice?
I

canlt recall the specific advice

that he provided me back in 2002
Q.

I

14.

or 14.

At this time in 2004, how would

Minimally, relatively minimal.
Other than the factors that we

discussed earlier?
A.

Other than periodic introductions and

reviewing of his own investment portfolio, by that
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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010
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Mr. Katz why I thought it was a good idea for him to

02:35:12

2

be diversified.

02:35:15

3

Q.

02:35:18

4

02:35:22

5

02:35:25

6

02:35:27

7

diversification the issue of front-running, of

02:35:32

8

Madoff possibly front-running, carne up?

02:35:34

9

02:35:36

10

02:35:38

11

diversification, it may have corne up in the context

02:35:41

12

of the competition that I felt with Madoff, of

02:35:44

13

wanting to get more, have Mr. Katz invest more money

02:35:48

14

with me as opposed to invest money with somebody

02:35:52

15

else.

02:35:52

16

02:35:55

17

02:35:57

18

02:35:59

19

When they sold the building, lid like to get that

02:36:03

20

money invested in 25 managers, not in one manager.

02:36:07

21

02:36:09

22

Stamos was to diversify the Katz and Wilpon familyls

02:36:16

23

investments in Madoff, right?

02:36:17

24

A.

02:36:19

25

diversification.

So that the diversification issue was

a continuous subject of discussion with Mr. Katz?
A.

Q.

Yes.
And within those discussions of

MR. GOUDlSS:
A.

Q.

I object.

Go ahead.

May have corne up in the context of

So, in the context of further

diversifying away from Madoff to Sterling Stamos?
A.

Q.

Not necessarily away from Madoff.

But one of the purposes of Sterling

Purpose was initially
And then later for me it became
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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010

competition.

02:36:22

1

02:36:24

2

02:36:26

3

discussed earlier, they had a substantial amount of

02:36:28

4

their assets in Madoff, correct?

02:36:30

5

02:36:31

6

02:36:34

7

purposes of forming Sterling Stamos for the Katz/

02:36:38

8

Wilpon family was to diversify some of those assets

02:36:40

9

into another investment vehicle; isn't that right?

02:36:44

10

02:36:47

11

of assets because they had money with Madoff, but

02:36:49

12

they also had real estate, baseball team and various

02:36:53

13

other assets, funds.

02:36:56

14

02:37:00

15

or when was the first time the issue of the

02:37:03

16

broker-dealer Madoff issue, when was that first

02:37:06

17

discussed with Saul Katz?

02:37:08

18

02:37:10

19

do -- I don't believe it was at any time in the

02:37:14

20

early years of the firm, because it was not an issue

02:37:16

21

that we monitored in the early years of the firm.

02:37:19

22

02:37:25

23

Mr. Saul Katz concerning the broker-dealer issues

02:37:29

24

with Madoff, was that before or after Mr. Dunleavy

02:37:35

25

raised his concerns with the broker-dealer issue?

Q.

A.
Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Right.

But initially, as we

That was my understanding.
Right.

And one of the stated

To diversify their overall portfolio

When was the first time you raised,

I don't recall the first time.

I

So, the discussion you had with

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PETER S. STAMOS - August 19,2010

A.

Either I or a member of my firm on a

02:43:44

1

02:43:47

2

regular basis, most likely monthly, would have some

02:43:51

3

conversation with Mr. Katz about performance of

02:43:56

4

Bernard Madoff versus performance of his capital

02:43:58

5

with us.

02:44:04

6

Q.

02:44:06

7

02:44:10

8

02:44:12

9

02:44:15

10

dismissed it categorically, as these are not issues

02:44:20

11

that he needed to worry about, other than

02:44:22

12

diversification.

02:44:25

13

over time.

02:44:26

14

02:44:29

15

constant comparison about the risk adjusted returns

02:44:34

16

of our funds versus Bernard Madoffls.

02:44:36

17

we did better and some months we didnlt do as well.

02:44:39

18

02:44:42

19

categorically rejected some of the concerns that you

02:44:46

20

expressed about Madoff?

02:44:47

21

02:44:51

22

02:44:51

23

02:44:53

24

years, what years are you referring to,

02:44:55

25

specifically?

What were the issues that were raised

by Saul Katz during these regular discussions?
A.

Two very specifically.

On any

concerns that I would raise about Mr. Madoff, he

And he had a plan to diversify

And number two was a, I would say,

Q.

A.

Some months

What was your response when Saul Katz

I was of the same opinion in those

years.
Q.

And when welre talking about those

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A.

02:44:58

2

fraud was discovered, I had the same conclusion.

02:45:02

3

Other than not putting more than 10 percent into a

02:45:06

4

manager, and that as a fiduciary I could not put my

02:45:10

5

capital, my fund's capital there, I agreed with him.

02:45:13

6

Legend in the industry and all of the things that he

02:45:17

7

said.

02:45:20

8

02:45:23

9

given the fact that they had so much money in

02:45:27

10

Madoff, that even though you both shared the

02:45:31

11

conclusion that he wasn't front-running and that the

02:45:34

12

broker-dealer issue that he had wasn't a substantial

02:45:39

13

concern but that given the volume of their assets

02:45:42

14

under management with Madoff, that he or Sterling

02:45:45

15

should take another look at Madoff?

02:45:47

16

02:45:48

17

02:45:49

18

02:45:51

19

that Sterling should engage in any diligence with

02:45:53

20

Madoff?

02:45:54

21

02:45:56

22

never did due diligence on Madoff and I never asked

02:45:59

23

them to do due diligence on Madoff.

02:46:01

24

02:46:04

25

Q.

A.

All the way to the time when the

Did you ever express to him that

I don't understand what you mean by

take another look.
Q.

A.

Q.

That they should engage in any --

I didn't think that was my -- no.

I

Did you ever recommend that they do

due diligence on Madoff?
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before the fraud was discovered.

03:49:09

2

painful conversation for me to hear.

03:49:12

3

saying something along the lines of, Peter, I'm very

03:49:16

4

disappointed.

03:49:21

5

basis 18 percent and Madoff is up 12.

03:49:24

6

have to redeem all of my capital or a substantial

03:49:27

7

portion of my capital from you and put it with

03:49:31

8

Bernie Madoff.

03:49:32

9

Q.

03:49:35

10

03:49:36

11

03:49:42

12

03:49:44

13

03:49:47

14

03:49:51

15

portfolio of managers and that that was better for

03:49:55

16

him than to have all his capital in one manager, and

03:49:59

17

I believe I said, particularly in a manager whose

03:50:02

18

strategy we cannot explain.

03:50:05

19

03:50:10

20

whose strategy you cannot explain, what are you

03:50:12

21

referring to specifically?

03:50:14

22

03:50:16

23

only the investment due diligence that we developed

03:50:20

24

post-2007, over the 2007-2008 period, which was to

03:50:27

25

require of managers that they explain their strategy

A.

Because it was a
I remember him

Your fund is down on an unlevered
I think I

And what did you say in response?
I don't recall the specific words,

but I do recall trying to defend our position.
Q.

And what did you say to defend your

position, to Saul Katz at that discussion?
A.

Q.

A.

Generally, that we were a diversified

And when you say a particular manager

I'm referring to specifically not

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in a way that we could explain to our investors and

03:50:35

2

that put a big block on us investing as fiduciaries

03:50:40

3

in black boxes.

03:50:43

4

03:50:45

5

03:50:49

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Madoff were true, he would not have made it into our

03:50:52

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portfolio as a -- he would not have made the

03:50:54

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transparency requirements or the operational due

03:50:56

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diligence requirements, or the investment due

03:50:58

10

03:51:00

11

03:51:02

12

Madoff would not have passed those due diligence

03:51:05

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criteria with Mr. Katz?

03:51:08

14

03:51:10

15

03:51:11

16

03:51:13

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you had, I think you said about a week before

03:51:16

18

December 11th.

03:51:18

19

A.

03:51:19

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particular time.

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defense.

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with him at some point over the 2007-2008 period.

03:51:28

23

2008 period, I believe.

03:51:30

24

03:51:32

25

such as D.E. Shaw, for example.
Or such as Madoff?

Q.

A.

At that time, if what we heard about

diligence requirements because of transparency.
And did you share the fact that

Q.

At any time or at that particular

A.

time?
Let's start with this discussion that

Q.

Q.

I

But

I

don't believe that I
I

think I

did it at that

just put up a general

do recall having that conversation

And what specifically did you tell

Mr. Saul Katz during those discussions?
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MR. GOUDISS:

I object.

Go ahead,

03:54:24

1

03:54:26

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tell him again.

03:54:27

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A.

03:54:29

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concern to him.

03:54:35

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own performance relative to the market.

03:54:37

6

03:54:39

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with Saul Katz, the fact that Madoff's returns were

03:54:45

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very -- were consistent over time?

03:54:48

9

03:54:51

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concern.

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11

of one of the criteria we looked for in managers.

03:55:00

12

03:55:04

13

Mr. Dunleavy had raised two concerns that he had

03:55:09

14

with Madoff in the 2007 time frame.

03:55:13

15

broker-dealer issue.

03:55:15

16

03:55:15

17

03:55:20

18

03:55:21

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issues, did Mr. Dunleavy raise any other concerns

03:55:28

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with you that he had with Madoff?

03:55:30

22

03:55:31

23

answered.

03:55:33

24

A.

03:55:35

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.
Q.
A.
Q.

I don't recall expressing that
I recall expressing a defense of my

Right.

Did you ever raise that issue

I don't recall expressing that
I recall expressing that as an objective

I

think earlier you had said that

Um-hum.
And the front-running issue.
Possibility.
Possibility.

MR. GOUDISS:

Q.

That was the

Other than those two

I object.

Asked and

Go ahead.
I don't recall any others.
Do you know if Mr. Dunleavy shared
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recommended

04:02:09

1

04:02:10

2

04:02:10

3

04:02:15

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issues that you discussed with Mr. Katz concerning

04:02:21

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Madoff

04:02:21

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04:02:22

8

04:02:23

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04:02:24

10

04:02:24

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04:02:25

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04:02:27

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Mr. Katz on a number of occasions that my assumption

04:02:29

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is that Mr. Madoff is the most honest and honorable

04:02:33

15

man, among the most honest and honorable men that we

04:02:38

16

will ever meet.

04:02:41

17

he is perhaps one of the -- my assumption is hels

04:02:43

18

perhaps one of the best hedge fund managers in

04:02:45

19

modern times.

04:02:47

20

04:02:50

21

that Mr. Madoff is the most honest and honorable man

04:02:54

22

that youlll ever meet, what was that based on?

04:02:57

23

04:03:01

24

his long track record, based upon having seen him

04:03:05

25

receive these awards and the positions that he held

II

A.
Q.

II

Recommended and advised.
Yeah, put those aside.
What other -- are there any other

A.
Q.

Yes.
-- other than the ones welve

discussed?
A.
Q.
A.

Q.

A.

Yes.
What else?
rim embarrassed to say that r said to

Number one.

And, number two, that

With respect to the first assumption,

Based on his reputation, based upon

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as chairman of the NASDAQ, having built this great

04:03:14

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company.

04:03:18

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of us.

04:03:23

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and I assumed that.

04:03:27

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04:03:29

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would not have passed your due diligence tests,

04:03:31

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right?

04:03:32

8

04:03:34

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my portfolio for all kinds of reasons by that time.

04:03:39

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In early 2002 we could have because at that time we

04:03:40

11

were investing in any closed manager that had a good

04:03:42

12

reputation that we could get into.

04:03:46

13

2008 with the new sets of requirements and

04:03:49

14

operational due diligence, risk management and

04:03:51

15

investment due diligence that we would have imposed,

04:03:54

16

it would have been stopped at the door the moment we

04:03:56

17

found any of these issues.

04:03:59

18

04:04:01

19

would not have passed your due diligence

04:04:04

20

requirements to Saul Katz?

04:04:06

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04:04:07

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04:04:09

23

know for a matter of fact that -- I believe that, I

04:04:15

24

believe that Mr. Dunleavy expressed that at the

04:04:19

25

board meeting as well.

He was, quite frankly, legendary, to all
And I stood in awe of that with Mr. Katz,

Q.

A.

Q.

But despite all that, the Madoff fund

As a fiduciary I couldn't put it in

Did you express the fact that Madoff

MR. GOUDISS:
A.

But by 2007,

I object.

I believe that I expressed it and I

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