Obergefell et al v. Kasich et al

Filing 62

REPLY to Response to Motion re 53 MOTION for Permanent Injunction and Declaratory Judgment filed by Plaintiffs Robert Grunn, David Brian Michener, James Obergefell. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A-Whitewood Order, # 2 Exhibit B-Excerpt of Perry Trial Transcript) (Gerhardstein, Alphonse)

Volume 5
Pages 991 - 1255
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
BEFORE THE HONORABLE VAUGHN R. WALKER
KRISTIN M. PERRY,
SANDRA B. STIER, PAUL T. KATAMI,
and JEFFREY J. ZARRILLO,

)
)
)
)
Plaintiffs,
)
)
VS.
)
)
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, in his
)
official capacity as Governor of
)
California; EDMUND G. BROWN, JR., )
in his official capacity as
)
Attorney General of California;
)
MARK B. HORTON, in his official
)
capacity as Director of the
)
California Department of Public
)
Health and State Registrar of
)
Vital Statistics; LINETTE SCOTT,
)
in her official capacity as Deputy )
Director of Health Information &
)
Strategic Planning for the
)
California Department of Public
)
Health; PATRICK O'CONNELL, in his )
official capacity as
)
Clerk-Recorder for the County of
)
Alameda; and DEAN C. LOGAN, in his )
official capacity as
)
Registrar-Recorder/County Clerk
)
for the County of Los Angeles,
)
)
Defendants.
)
___________________________________)

NO. C 09-2292-VRW

San Francisco, California
Friday
January 15, 2010

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Reported By: Katherine Powell Sullivan, CRR, CSR 5812
Debra L. Pas, CRR, CSR 11916
Reporters
Official Reporters - U.S. District Court

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1064

1

A.

It certainly can, yes.

2

Q.

And there is evidence that men who are married to women,

3

however, are less likely to drink heavily and less likely to

4

gamble, correct?

5

A.

6

expertise -- range of expertise, yes.

7

Q.

8

not saying that men and women are completely interchangeable,

9

correct?

I've heard of that research.

It's obviously outside of my

When it comes to parenting skills and abilities, you're

10

A.

What I'm saying is that where it comes to the aspects of

11

parenting that affect children's adjustment, it's the same

12

features of the parents' behavior that are important for their

13

children's adjustment.

14

Q.

15

deposition in this case, lines 9 through 14.

16

A.

That's back to --

17

Q.

Binder 1, the testimony binder.

18

A.

Okay.

19

Q.

225.

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

And line 9, it says -- let me make sure I'm in the right

22

place here.

23

my question:

I would like to direct your attention to page 225 of your

Number 1.

And what pages was that?

All right.

Line 9 through 14.

Line 9 starts with

24

"Is it your opinion that men and women are

25

completely interchangeable in terms of

1065

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1

parenting skills and ability?

2

"ANSWER:

3

completely interchangeable with respect to

4

skills and abilities."

5

And you gave that testimony, right?

6

A.

I did.

7

Well, I'm not saying they are

I meant.

8

I continued for several paragraphs explaining what

(Laughter)

9

Q.

And we'll explore that in great detail today.

You --

10

A.

I just don't want you to lose sight of the fact that there

11

is more.

12

Q.

13

and that it has ramifications for an individual's experiences

14

from the beginning of their life, correct?

15

A.

That's correct.

16

Q.

So gender likely would be related to some of the processes

17

related to raising a child, but not necessarily in a

18

straightforward way, correct?

19

A.

Correct.

20

Q.

And so you think gender is one of those variables that can

21

have ripple effects in a variety of different ways on the way

22

in which people behave, and can in a variety of ways affect the

23

way they behave with their children, correct?

24

A.

It can, yes.

25

Q.

Gender is something that actually has a wide range of

You would concede that gender is a complicated variable,

1066

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1

effects on a variety of different levels of our behavior,

2

correct?

3

A.

That's correct.

4

Q.

Fathers' biological and socially-reinforced masculine

5

qualities predispose them to treat their children differently

6

than do mothers, correct?

7

A.

I'm not sure about that.

8

Q.

Well, let's look at tab 9 of your binder, your second

9

binder.

And this would be 9A, actually.

10

A.

Uh-huh.

11

Q.

And turning your attention -- this is called -- this is

12

from 2000.

13

something you were a coauthor of, correct?

14

A.

It's "Fatherhood in the 21st Century."

And this is

That's correct.

15

And I'd like to direct your attention to page 130.

16

And in particular, to the right-hand column, the second full

17

paragraph.

And it's the third sentence, that says:

18

"Fathers' biological and socially-reinforced

19

masculine qualities predispose them to treat

20

their children differently than do mothers."

21

A.

And I'm still not sure where you are.

22

the second column.

23

Q.

24

you believed that to be true, correct?

25

A.

Okay.

Sorry.

Oh, okay,

I have you now.

And when you signed on to this paper as a coauthor,

Well, I think this is referring to David Popenoe, and

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1

describing his position here.

2

1067

(Laughter)

3

Q.

4

didn't you?

5

A.

6

review which was trying to describe this position.

7

Yes.

And it -- well, and you believed it to be true,

I don't -- I don't read it that way.

I read it as a

We were supposed to be reviewing the contributions to

8

the field over the previous decade.

9

Review article.

This was a Millennial

And, as you see, David Popenoe's name is

10

mentioned right at the end of this sentence preceding the one

11

that you just discussed.

12

Q.

13

enough to be noted in your review; is that your point?

14

A.

He had made this point during the '90s and -- yeah.

15

Q.

Well, let's --

16

A.

Scholars like to be sure that they don't leave out things.

17

Q.

Let me ask you this question.

18

father absence has its greatest and most predictable effects

19

when the father leaves earlier in the child's life, correct?

20

A.

Sorry, can you repeat the question?

21

Q.

Sure.

22

greatest and most predictable effects when the father leaves

23

earlier in the child's life, correct?

24

A.

25

that context.

And you thought Mr. Popenoe's contribution was significant

There is evidence that

There is evidence that father absence has its

Well, again, with the provisos around the term "effect" in
Certainly, you have a very different set of

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1068

1

processes involved when you have something occurring very early

2

in the child's life.

3

That's correct.

4

Q.

You have longer periods of time involved.

The attachment between -- excuse me.

5

There are studies that show that the attachment

6

between babies and fathers is also strong, and that it might

7

serve needs that are not met in the infant-mother relationship,

8

correct?

9

A.

I'm -- well, certainly, I conducted a lot of that area of

10

research on babies' attachments to mothers and fathers.

And if

11

you're talking about babies being raised in families with two

12

parents, there's a significant amount of evidence that both of

13

those relationships have an important impact on those

14

children's development.

15

Q.

16

between maternal and paternal behavior are more strongly

17

related to either the parents' biological gender or sex roles,

18

than to either of their degree of involvement in infant care or

19

their attitudes regarding the desirability of paternal

20

involvement in infant care, correct?

21

A.

I think that's generally not the case.

22

Q.

Well, let's look at tab 12.

23

Affiliative Systems."

24

page 117.

25

this book, "Effect of Gender and Caretaking Role on

And there is data that suggests that the differences

And this is, "Attachment and

And I'd like to direct your attention to

This is a -- do you recall writing chapter 10 of

1069

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1

Parent/Infant Interaction"?

2

A.

3

late 1970s, and published in 1982.

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

Uh-huh.

6

Q.

And here, you, as an author wrote:

Believe it or not, I do, even though it was written in the

And let's turn to page 117.

7

"The data suggests that the differences

8

between maternal and paternal behavior are

9

more strongly related to either the parents'

10

biological gender or sex roles, than to

11

either their degree of involvement in infant

12

care or their attitudes regarding the

13

desirability of paternal involvement in

14

infant care."

15

You believed that at the time you wrote this,

16

correct?

17

A.

18

was conducted, as I said, in the late 1970s.

19

that you just read was our summary of the results of that study

20

conducted in the late 1970s.

21

I wrote this chapter describing a particular study that
And the sentence

As I testified earlier, I certainly believed, at that

22

point, that these issues might be really important.

And that's

23

why we did studies like this.

24

that is a finding that has not held up in subsequent research.

25

Q.

As I also testified earlier,

Well, so science was wrong?

LAMB - CROSS EXAMINATION / THOMPSON

1

1070

(Laughter)

2

A.

3

which many individuals conduct many studies, asking lots of

4

related and unrelated studies.

5

Science, as I understand it, is a cumulative process, in

And in that vast body of literature, you will

6

certainly find cases where a finding is not replicated by other

7

researchers.

8

one of their conclusions was distorted because of a particular

9

measure they used and a particular procedure that they adopted.

10

You will find cases where researchers find that

And that's why it's important to view it as a

11

cumulative process, one where you look at the big picture and

12

the way in which multiple studies give insight into the

13

conclusions that you want to reach.

14

It's absolutely not the case that any particular

15

study, in and of itself, is going to establish an important

16

association.

17

Q.

18

different roles in the socialization of the child, correct?

19

A.

20

different roles when children are being raised by two

21

heterosexual parents, where both of those parents have

22

significant roles in raising those children.

23

Q.

24

mother-infant and father-infant relationship, correct?

25

A.

Both mothers and fathers play crucial and qualitatively

Well, both mothers and fathers can play importantly

And, indeed, there are qualitative differences between the

Well, there are often qualitative differences between the