Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al
Filing
1314
NOTICE by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1269 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal,,, Order on Motion to Remove Incorrectly Filed Document, Order on Motion for Miscellaneous Relief, Unredacted Declaration of Mark Tung in Support of Samsung's Conditional Motion for Relief (Dkt. No. 953) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 3, # 2 Exhibit 4, # 3 Exhibit 5, # 4 Exhibit 6, # 5 Exhibit 7, # 6 Exhibit 8, # 7 Exhibit 9, # 8 Exhibit 11, # 9 Exhibit 12, # 10 Exhibit 13, # 11 Exhibit 14, # 12 Exhibit 15)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/24/2012)
EXHIBIT 13
FILED UNDER SEAL
Page 1
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2
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA, SAN JOSE DIVISION
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APPLE, INC., a California Corporation
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vs.
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SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS COMPANY,
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LTD, a Korean business entity; SAMSUNG
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ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., a New
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York Corporation; SAMSUNG
CN:11-CV-01846-LHK
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TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC,
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a Delaware Limited Liability Company.
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___________________________________/
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14
15
The videorecorded deposition of RAVIN
16
BALAKRISHNAN, PH.D., was held on Friday, April 20,
17
2012, commencing at 9:07 A.M., at the Law Offices of
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Quinn Emanuel, 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Suite
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825, Washington, D.C., before Ronda J. Thomas, a
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Notary Public.
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22
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REPORTED BY:
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Ronda J. Thomas, RPR, CLR
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JOB NO. 48807
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Morrison and Foerster on behalf of the plaintiff,
09:08
2
Apple.
09:08
3
4
MR. AHN:
Forester on behalf of Apple.
5
6
Matthew Ahn of Morrison and
MR. BUSEY:
09:08
And, also, I'm representing the
witness.
7
09:08
09:08
09:08
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
Will the court reporter
09:08
8
please swear the witness.
09:08
9
Whereupon,
09:08
10
RAVIN BALAKRISHNAN, PH.D.,
09:08
11
called as a witness, having been first duly sworn to tell 09:08
12
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was09:08
13
examined and testified as follows:
14
09:08
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHNSON:
09:08
15
Q
Good morning, Dr. Balakrishnan.
09:08
16
A
Good morning.
09:09
17
Q
How many times have you been deposed now?
09:09
18
A
I don't have a precise count.
09:09
19
somewhere between half a dozen and ten.
20
21
(Brief pause.)
Q
09:09
Sorry about that.
09:09
09:09
Apple?
24
25
09:09
Is the bulk of your consulting work now for
22
23
I would say
09:09
MR. BUSEY:
A
Objection just to form.
The current litigation consulting I'm doing
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2
3
4
also accused of infringing the '381, right?
A
Yes, it is.
Or I've accused a Galaxy S4G.
Whether it's the exact same one I don't know.
Q
Take a look at the ThinkFree Office
10:38
10:38
10:38
10:38
5
application and tell me if it infringes the '381
10:38
6
patent?
10:38
7
A
Sure.
10:38
8
MR. BUSEY:
9
version of the Galaxy S4G this is?
10
11
MR. JOHNSON:
Can counsel represent what
A
10:39
10:39
2.3.3.
10:39
So I've just tried the ThinkFree Office
10:39
12
with two different PDF files and I cannot get it to do
10:39
13
the same functionality that I saw on the Galaxy S4G
10:39
14
with the ThinkFree Office in counsel's office.
10:40
15
Q
So Exhibit 4, the ThinkFree Office
10:40
16
application in Exhibit 4 doesn't infringe the '381
10:40
17
patent, right?
10:40
18
A
ThinkFree Office that I'm using right now
10:40
19
on Exhibit 4, this particular version does not seem to
10:40
20
infringe.
10:40
21
22
23
Q
Is it your understanding that some of the
10:40
versions of ThinkFree Office infringe and some don't?
10:40
A
ThinkFree Office versions that I tested on
10:40
24
the phones I list in paragraph 37 of my report do
10:40
25
infringe as I've indicated.
10:41
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Given what I've seen today with this
10:41
2
version of ThinkFree Office on the Exhibit 4 and the
10:41
3
one I just examined on the earlier exhibit, which I
10:41
4
believe was Exhibit 3, those two do not appear to
10:41
5
infringe.
10:41
6
7
So as a result at least these two versions
of ThinkFree Office do not.
8
9
Q
10:41
10:41
The question I have is:
When you looked at
10:41
the phones and products that were at Apple's counsel's
10:41
10
office, did you see any phones that had the ThinkFree
10:41
11
Office application that did not infringe?
10:41
12
A
I do not recall seeing any ThinkFree Office
10:41
13
applications that I tried that did not infringe the
10:42
14
381.
10:42
15
Q
Do you recall seeing any phones at Apple's
10:42
16
counsel's office or tablets where the Browser
10:42
17
application did not infringe?
10:42
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A
I believe so, yes.
10:42
19
Q
Can you tell me which ones those were?
10:42
20
A
I don't have that on top of my head but I
10:42
21
might have it in the report.
22
23
Give me one minute.
10:42
(Witness reading.)
A
10:42
So in my report in paragraph 261 as one
10:43
24
example the Gem, G-E-M, phone did not appear to do the
10:43
25
'381's feature in the Browser and you get a hard stop
10:43
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instead of the snap back.
2
that I've seen is what's referred to as the blue glow
10:43
3
effect, which I talk about a little about it in
10:43
4
paragraph 262.
10:44
5
And the other alternative
I don't list in this the devices that have
10:43
10:44
6
that.
7
but I definitely have seen devices that do the blue
10:44
8
glow instead of the snap back.
10:44
9
10
My job here was to deal with the infringement
Q
do not infringe the '381 patent?
11
12
13
So the devices that exhibit the hard stop
MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.
A
10:44
10:44
10:44
Objection to the extent it's
It calls for a legal conclusion.
Go ahead.
So device running the Browser application,
10:44
10:44
10:44
14
and in the Browser application if it does the hard stop
10:44
15
or not the snap back or rubber-banding, then the
10:44
16
Browser application on that device would not infringe.
10:44
17
There may be other applications, like the
10:44
18
Contacts, that may not have a hard stop and might
10:44
19
infringe.
10:44
20
Q
What do you mean by hard stop?
10:44
21
A
By hard stop, I mean when you hit the edge
10:44
22
23
of the -- well, let's take it back to the claim.
For example claim element F here, which
10:44
10:45
24
says once you've reached the edge of the document,
10:45
25
displaying an area beyond the edge of the document,
10:45
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where it does not do that, and it does not do the
10:45
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snapback functionality in elements G and H.
10:45
3
4
5
6
7
And a simple example of that is what I just
saw in the ThinkFree Office on Exhibit 4.
Q
And the blue glow does not infringe
the '381 patent either?
A
10:45
10:45
10:45
10:45
If it is only the blue glow and not the
10:45
8
blue glow in additional to the snapback that's in '381,
10:45
9
then a device or an application, having just the blue
10:45
10
glow and not doing the '381 snapback functionality,
10:45
11
would not infringe.
10:45
12
Q
Were there any other characteristics of the
10:45
13
Browser on products that you reviewed, besides the hard
10:46
14
stop and blue glow that you believe don't infringe?
10:46
15
16
MR. BUSEY:
A
Objection.
Ambiguous.
I believe I've seen a Browser that had a
10:46
10:46
17
yellow glow, but effectively it's the same
10:46
18
functionality as the blue glow but a different color.
10:46
19
And that, that would be the same as blue glow from a
10:46
20
functionality point of view.
10:46
21
Q
22
Any others?
MR. BUSEY:
10:46
Same objection.
10:46
23
A
That's all I can recall right now.
10:46
24
Q
Did you review any products that had a
10:46
25
Contacts application that did not infringe?
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A
You said Contacts application?
10:46
2
Q
Yes.
10:46
3
A
I believe I have seen Contacts applications
10:47
4
on some Samsung phones that had a blue or a yellow glow
10:47
5
functionality instead of the snapback functionality of
10:47
6
the '381, and that would not infringe.
10:47
7
8
Q
Samsung phones that exhibited a hard stop?
9
10
11
Did you see any Contacts applications on
A
10:47
10:47
Honestly, I don't recall offhand.
I might
have.
10:47
10:47
Q
Okay.
Do you remember seeing any Samsung
10:47
12
products that have a Gallery application that do not
10:47
13
infringe the '381 patent?
10:47
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15
16
MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.
A
Objection again to being
Go ahead.
I might have.
10:48
10:48
I don't recall exactly
10:48
17
whether I have or not because many of these, there are
10:48
18
so many of these phones that I've tried.
10:48
19
have a list of the ones that don't do the '381.
20
21
Q
And I don't
You weren't interested in the ones that
don't infringe, right?
10:48
10:48
10:48
22
A
I was not making, keeping track of it.
10:48
23
Q
There are some phones that have a Gallery
10:48
24
25
application that exhibit a blue glow, right?
A
That might be true.
I, I just don't have a
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precise recollection of that.
10:48
2
Q
Do you know which ones?
10:48
3
A
I just said I don't have a precise
10:48
4
recollection.
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6
Q
10:48
Do you have any -- do you have an imprecise
recollection?
10:48
10:48
7
A
No, unfortunately.
10:48
8
Q
Are there Samsung products that have a
10:49
9
Gallery application that exhibit a hard stop?
10
11
A
I have to give the same answer.
10:49
I might
have seen them but I don't recall offhand.
12
Q
10:49
10:49
Are you aware of any Samsung products in
10:49
13
the Gallery application that exhibit a hold still
10:49
14
phenomenon?
10:49
15
MR. BUSEY:
16
Q
Objection --
10:49
Sorry -- where the photo doesn't snap in
10:49
17
either direction, it just, if you move it, it stays
10:49
18
put?
10:49
19
20
21
MR. BUSEY:
Objection.
Ambiguous and
confusing.
A
10:49
10:49
When you move it and it stays put?
So you
10:49
22
move it off the edge and it stays put, is that what
10:49
23
you're saying?
10:49
24
Q
Right.
10:49
25
A
I have seen some Samsung products with a
10:49
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MR. BUSEY:
Let me see that, please.
01:59
2
A
Okay.
01:59
3
Q
Are we looking at one electronic document
01:59
4
there, two electronic documents, more than that?
5
6
A
I'm looking at at least two electronic
documents, yes.
01:59
01:59
01:59
7
Q
And what are the two electronic documents?
01:59
8
A
Well, the first one is this list of stocks.
01:59
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10
The second one is this list of looks, like news
02:00
headlines at the bottom.
02:00
11
Q
And where is the edge of the documents?
02:00
12
A
In each case?
02:00
13
Q
Yeah.
02:00
14
A
The, in the one on the top, the edge is on
02:00
15
the top of the list and the bottom of the list and the
02:00
16
sides of the list.
02:00
17
And the same with the bottom, the news,
02:00
It's at the top of the list of the news
02:00
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news feed.
19
feeds and bottom of the list of the news feeds -- news
02:00
20
feed.
02:00
21
22
Q
used in claim 16?
23
24
25
What does elastically attached mean as it's
02:01
02:02
(Witness reading.)
A
02:02
In the context of the claims, it means the,
02:02
when moving from, the document from one, one direction
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to the other direction so the area beyond the edge
02:02
2
disappears, that movement gives the appearance of it
02:02
3
being attached with an elastic band, for example, the
02:03
4
analogies to the physical world.
02:03
5
instantly snap back, like instantly you see a elastic
02:03
6
movement or an animation.
02:03
7
Q
So it doesn't
Do the bounce features that you reviewed in
02:03
8
the Samsung products elastically snap back, or do they
02:03
9
instantly snap back?
02:03
10
11
12
MR. BUSEY:
Objection.
Ambiguous.
Calls
for a legal conclusion.
A
02:03
02:03
02:03
I'm sorry, the, just to clarify that, the
13
They all elastically snap back.
02:03
14
Gallery and Contacts and Browser accused products
02:03
15
elastically snap back.
02:03
16
17
Q
20 are, is based upon your analysis of claim 1, right?
18
19
MR. BUSEY:
Objection to the extent it
mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony.
20
21
Your analysis with respect to claims 19 and
02:04
02:04
02:04
02:04
(Witness reading.)
A
02:04
The analysis of the functionality is based,
02:05
22
it's in part based on the analysis I did in claim 1
02:05
23
but, of course, claim 19 talks about things like memory
02:05
24
and programs and instructions, and that is the
02:05
25
additional analysis presented in my report.
02:05
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2
Q
Okay.
Well, claim 19, for example,
paragraph 191, you say:
3
02:05
02:05
Because these devices perform the elements
02:05
4
described in claims 1 and 19, they must have
02:05
5
instructions for performing those methods and a storage
02:05
6
medium for those instructions as recited in those
02:05
7
claims.
02:05
8
9
10
11
12
13
Have you confirmed that the accused devices
actually have those instructions?
A
02:05
Yes, because I looked at the source code on
the machines in Quinn's offices in Redwood Shores.
Q
So why does your report say they must have
as opposed to they do, in fact, have?
14
Is there a distinction there in your mind
15
or no?
16
A
02:05
02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06
They do have and they must have, because
02:06
17
without, without having it, they wouldn't be able to do
02:06
18
this functionality.
02:06
19
Q
Okay.
Now, with respect to section Y of
02:06
20
your report, you talk about the difficulty of design
02:06
21
around?
02:06
22
A
I'm sorry, what paragraph is that?
02:06
23
Q
261.
02:06
24
A
Yes.
02:07
25
Q
Can you list for me, what are the
02:07
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non-infringement alternatives to a '381 patent?
02:07
2
A
That I've seen in the Samsung devices?
02:07
3
Q
Yes.
02:07
4
A
Okay.
So the first one that we have
02:07
5
already talked about is what has been referred to as a
02:07
6
hard stop.
02:07
7
report.
8
9
10
And that's discussed in paragraph 261 of my
02:07
If there's a hard stop, and there isn't,
02:07
the bounceback or snapback effect that's found in the
02:07
claims of the '381.
02:07
11
Similarly, if it uses the blue glow effect
02:07
12
which we have discussed and I talk about in the 262,
02:07
13
sorry, paragraph 262, again, assuming the blue glow is
02:07
14
there and the functionality that is infringing the
02:07
15
claims, which is the snapback functionality is no
02:07
16
longer there, then that would not be infringing.
02:08
17
And as I said, I think, earlier this
02:08
18
morning, I've seen a yellow glow as well, which would
02:08
19
be effectively the same --
02:08
20
Q
Have you seen --
02:08
21
A
-- the same as the blue glow.
02:08
22
Q
Have you seen any other non-infringing
02:08
23
alternatives?
24
25
02:08
MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.
I'm going to object as
Go ahead.
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so --
2
03:06
3
Q
Okay.
Was a DiamondTouch device with a
tabletop cloth application ever sold to anyone?
03:06
03:06
4
A
I do not know.
03:06
5
Q
Was a DiamondTouch device with the
03:06
6
Tablecloth application ever used in public?
03:06
7
A
I don't know.
03:06
8
Q
I think you said you weren't sure whether
03:07
the DiamondTouch device that was in the lobby of MERL
03:07
had Tablecloth on it, right?
03:07
9
10
11
A
That's right, at that timeframe.
03:07
12
Q
Are you aware of any other timeframe in
03:07
13
which the DiamondTouch device in the MERL lobby had
03:07
14
Tablecloth on it?
03:07
15
A
I'm not aware of it having it.
It might
03:07
But I do not recall ever seeing Tablecloth on
03:07
16
have.
17
the device in the lobby.
03:07
18
Q
Did you work with Mr. Forlines?
03:07
19
A
Yes.
03:07
20
Q
What did you work on together?
03:07
21
A
We worked on a variety of different
03:07
22
research projects involving user interfaces over the
03:07
23
years.
03:08
24
Q
Can you be any more specific?
03:08
25
A
Well, I can start from my CV because I've
03:08
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published some papers with him.
2
concrete.
3
4
I'll make it more
03:08
03:08
And I'm assuming you mean -- are you saying
during that timeframe or in general?
03:08
03:08
5
Q
In general.
03:08
6
A
So one project I worked on was on a user
03:08
7
interface for zooming and pointing using a handheld,
03:08
8
interactive handheld projector.
03:09
9
research.
10
11
12
That was one piece of
03:09
Another piece of research was on gesture
registration on a direct-touch surface.
Another piece of research was a study,
03:09
03:09
03:09
13
experimental evaluation of how it displays position and
03:09
14
the orientation of the user's control space with
03:09
15
effective user performance and preference.
03:09
16
Another study was on what we call hybrid
03:09
17
pointing, a way to switch between absolute and relative
03:09
18
pointing between, with direct input devices.
03:09
19
Another one was a study, an experimental
03:10
20
study on the effects of size, group size, the number of
03:10
21
people in a group, and the display configuration on the
03:10
22
visual search tasks.
03:10
23
There was another study on the perception
03:10
24
of elementary graphical elements and tabletop
03:10
25
environments.
03:10
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2
Another study on direct touch versus mouse
input for tabletop displays.
3
03:10
03:10
And yet another study on evaluation of
03:10
4
tactile feedback compared to direct versus indirect
03:10
5
stylus input in pointing and crossing selection tasks.
03:10
6
7
Q
Did you work with
Mr. Bogue?
8
9
How about Mr. Bogue?
A
03:10
I did not work with Mr. Bogue on any
research projects per se.
10
Q
03:10
03:10
03:11
And how about Mr. Wigdoor?
Did you work on
03:11
11
anything in particular with Mr. Wigdoor while at
03:11
12
consulting for Mitsubishi Electric Research Labs?
03:11
13
A
Yes.
03:11
14
Q
Can you tell me what you worked on?
03:11
15
A
Sure.
03:11
Some of that overlaps the list I just read.
03:11
16
17
Mr. Forlines was the co-author on some of that work as
03:11
18
well.
03:11
Let me just go through this again.
19
So this is with Mr. Wigdoor at MERL?
03:11
20
Q
Right.
03:11
21
A
So there was a research, piece of research
03:11
22
done -- yeah, I think this was done at MERL.
23
100 percent sure whether some of it was done at the
03:12
24
University as well.
03:12
25
the effect of orientation on the readability of text in
I'm not
It's work in 2005 investigating
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tabletop displays.
2
03:12
That study I mentioned earlier on display
03:12
3
position and control space orientation and user
03:12
4
performance and preference.
03:12
5
6
A piece of research called under the table
interaction.
7
8
the effects of group size and display configuration -THE COURT REPORTER:
10
11
12
03:12
Another piece of research which looked at
9
03:12
03:12
Of what size?
03:12
Excuse me -- group size and
THE WITNESS:
03:12
display configuration on visual search.
A
03:12
03:12
Another study, which I believe I mentioned
03:13
13
earlier, perception of elementary graphical elements in
03:13
14
tabletop and multisurface environments.
03:13
15
16
The study on direct touch versus mouse
input for tabletop displays.
17
03:13
03:13
I think that's pretty much it for MERL.
18
Q
19
03:13
You've reviewed Mr. Van Dam's report,
03:13
right?
20
03:13
MR. BUSEY:
Objection.
Ambiguous.
03:13
21
A
The report in this case, '381?
22
Q
Yeah.
03:13
23
And is it your opinion that the prior art
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24
references for the '381 patent have to be manipulated
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25
in just the right way to profuse the allegedly
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TSG Reporting - Worldwide
877-702-9580
Yes.
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