Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al
Filing
430
Declaration of Francis Ho in Support of #424 Apple's Reply in Support of its Motion for a Preliminary Injunction, filed by Apple Inc.. (Attachments: #1 Exhibit A, #2 Exhibit B, #3 Exhibit C, #4 Exhibit D, #5 Exhibit E, #6 Exhibit F-1, #7 Exhibit F-2, #8 Exhibit G, #9 Exhibit H, #10 Exhibit I, #11 Exhibit J-1, #12 Exhibit J-2, #13 Exhibit K, #14 Exhibit L-1, #15 Exhibit L-2, #16 Exhibit M, #17 Exhibit N, #18 Exhibit O, #19 Exhibit P, #20 Exhibit Q, #21 Exhibit R, #22 Exhibit S, #23 Exhibit T, #24 Exhibit U, #25 Exhibit V, #26 Exhibit W, #27 Exhibit X, #28 Exhibit Y, #29 Exhibit Z, #30 Exhibit AA, #31 Exhibit BB, #32 Exhibit CC, #33 Exhibit DD, #34 Exhibit EE, #35 Exhibit FF, #36 Exhibit GG, #37 Exhibit HH, #38 Exhibit II, #39 Exhibit JJ, #40 Exhibit KK, #41 Exhibit LL)(Related document(s) #424 ) (Bartlett, Jason) (Filed on 11/29/2011) Modified text on 11/30/2011 (dhm, COURT STAFF).
Exhibit T
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION
2
3
4
APPLE INC., a California
corporation,
5
Case No.
11-cv-01846-LHK
Plaintiff,
6
v.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
LTD., a Korean business
entity; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
AMERICA, INC., a New York
corporation; SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,
LLC, a Delaware limited
liability company,
Defendants.
C O N F I D E N T I A L
A T T O R N E Y S'
E Y E S
O N L Y
O U T S I D E
C O U N S E L
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D.
Washington, D.C.
Saturday, September 17, 2011
9:30 a.m.
21
22
Job No. 41965
23
24
25
Reporter: Linda S. Kinkade, RDR, CRR, RMR, CSR
Videographer: Conway Barker
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 2
1
2
3
4
5
The following is the videotaped deposition
6
of BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D. held at the offices
7
of:
8
9
10
Morrison & Foerster
11
2000 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
12
Washington, DC 20005
13
14
15
16
Taken pursuant to applicable Rules of Civil
17
Procedure, before Linda S. Kinkade, Registered
18
Diplomate Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
19
Registered Professional Reporter, Registered Merit
20
Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter (CA), and
21
Notary Public, in and for the District of Columbia.
22
23
24
25
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 3
1
APPEARANCES:
2
3
4
On Behalf of Plaintiff APPLE INC., a
California corporation:
5
MICHAEL A. JACOBS, ESQUIRE
6
DEOK KEUN AHN, ESQUIRE
7
Morrison & Foerster
8
425 Market Street
9
San Francisco, California 94105
10
11
12
13
14
15
On Behalf of Defendant SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
CO.:
16
ERIC HUANG, ESQUIRE
17
AARON KAUFMAN, ESQUIRE
18
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan
19
51 Madison Avenue
20
22nd Floor
21
New York, New York 10010
22
23
24
25
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 78
1
BY MR. JACOBS:
2
Q.
And is it the very same code that
3
executes that functionality in the following two
4
conditions:
5
bar is between email header images in the list;
6
condition 2, the email header is in the white
7
display space underneath the last -- below the
8
last of the email headers in the list?
9
10
Condition 1, the cursor highlight
MR. HUANG:
Objection to the form of
the question.
11
THE WITNESS:
You used the word email
12
header where I think you meant highlight cursor.
13
BY MR. JACOBS:
14
Q.
I think I did, yes.
15
again.
16
So let me ask it
can do it more clearly.
17
Maybe now that I have stated it orally I
There are two possibilities for the email
18
highlight cursor to be out of alignment with
19
email headers.
20
between email headers; the other possibility is
21
it's after the last of the email headers.
22
Correct?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
Is it the exact same code that causes
25
One possibility is it's in
the email header to snap into alignment with the
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 79
1
email cursor bar in either of those two cases?
2
MR. HUANG:
3
THE WITNESS:
Same objection.
So there is only one
4
code sequence of flow that performs snapping,
5
and that same sequence is used wherever the
6
email list is positioned vertically, including
7
when the bottom-most email header is above the
8
bottom of the screen.
9
BY MR. JACOBS:
10
Q.
And the -- it is possible that, when
11
the user lifts -- in the case of the depiction
12
on page 6 of your declaration -- when the user
13
lifts his finger, that the blue cursor bar and
14
email header image are in alignment, correct?
15
MR. HUANG:
16
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
So at the time the user
17
lifts off, it's possible that one of the email
18
headers is already completely aligned underneath
19
the highlight cursor -- highlight cursor.
20
BY MR. JACOBS:
21
Q.
That's my question.
22
A.
Yes, that's possible.
23
Q.
So I think you did this before, but if
24
you could just again point us to the code that
25
tests whether that condition has been met.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 84
1
Do you see that?
2
A.
Yes, I do.
3
Q.
What's the reference to depending on
4
the degree of the over-pan?
5
MR. HUANG:
6
THE WITNESS:
Objection, form.
If in the example that's
7
described here with these images, for a concrete
8
example, if the user has dragged -- moves --
9
touches the screen, drags their finger up so
10
they are moving the email list up, and the
11
bottom-most email header is above the bottom of
12
the screen, if -- so this is the over-pan
13
position -- if they have over-panned to a degree
14
such that that bottom email header is partially
15
overlapping with the highlight cursor, then it
16
will snap back so that the bottom-most email
17
header is aligned with the bottom of the screen
18
in this situation.
19
BY MR. JACOBS:
20
Q.
And if -- so in order for the snap
21
back to occur, there must be some partial
22
overlap at the end -- when the user lifts his
23
finger?
24
MR. HUANG:
25
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
If the -- it depends on
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 85
1
how much the bottom email header is above the
2
bottom of the screen.
3
I said, depending on the degree of the over-pan,
4
if the degree is such that there is some
5
overlap, then it will snap back.
6
BY MR. JACOBS:
7
Q.
8
A.
I believe then it does not snap back.
Then I believe it just stays in that position.
11
12
And if the degree is such that there
is no overlap, what happens?
9
10
So if it's -- that's why
Q.
And that's just a function of the
state of the code as -- let me start over again.
13
That is because the code in its -- in the
14
state in which you've provided it to us doesn't
15
have a case for no overlap or beyond overlap; is
16
that correct?
17
A.
Well, the code -- it does what it
18
does.
19
features and interactions, as we talked about,
20
and that's what it does.
21
I mean, it does a very specific set of
Q.
So --
Let me ask it this way.
Point us
22
where in the code the test is set forth in a way
23
that such that that constraint, that there must
24
be some overlap is present.
25
A.
So in Exhibit 212 -TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 86
1
Q.
Email.cs.
2
A.
-- Email.cs, pages 29 to 30, method
3
SnapObjectToHighlight, around the fifth line of
4
code it calls, GetIntersectingEmailItemBounds.
5
As we discussed earlier, this returns the
6
rectangle representing the bounds of the email
7
header that most overlaps the highlight cursor
8
implemented by that
9
GetIntersectingEmailItemBounds method.
If we're
10
in this condition where there is no email header
11
that overlaps -- sorry.
12
condition where the bounds of every email header
13
does not overlap the bounds of the highlight
14
cursor, then this method will return a
15
sourceRectangle whose value is empty.
16
If we're in the
The next line of code in
17
SnapObjectToHighlight says, if sourceRectangle is
18
not empty, then it calls SnapPositionToObject.
19
in the case we're talking about, sourceRectangle
20
would be empty and this SnapPositionToObject method
21
would not get called.
22
Q.
So
So I may not have been tracking your
23
description.
24
well, four lines up from the bottom, if you
25
include the brace, there is if sourceRectangle
On the bottom of page 29, three --
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 148
1
2
panning or attempting to pan the screen.
Q.
And how does it -- what happens when
3
there is no, in our case, where there is no Zone
4
to the right?
5
A.
I'm just going to look at this code
6
for a moment.
7
minute so that it will settle.
I'll figure this out in another
8
Q.
Not a problem.
9
A.
To be honest, I'm having a little
10
trouble understanding exactly how this code
11
works.
12
consistent with how it behaved, so I'm likely
13
misunderstanding something here.
14
Q.
My interpretation of the code is not
Let me come at the topic this way.
15
is the case, as we discussed, that you can't
16
cause the Zone to move to the left when the
17
right-most boundary of the Zone does not have
18
adjacent to it on the right another Zone,
19
correct?
20
MR. HUANG:
21
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
I think -- let me
22
just --
23
BY MR. JACOBS:
24
Q.
Say it your way.
25
A.
There is a grid of 3x3 Zones that's
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
It
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 149
1
fixed in the code.
2
right-most column, that is, any of the three
3
right Zones, and you try and drag to the left,
4
you will not be able to drag to the left.
5
Q.
Why?
So if you were in the
Why did you design it that way?
6
MR. HUANG:
7
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
I don't recall our
8
thinking in that specific design decision.
9
BY MR. JACOBS:
10
Q.
Was it a design decision?
11
MR. HUANG:
12
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
Or possibly a lack of a
13
design decision.
14
thinking was for that particular interaction
15
detail.
16
BY MR. JACOBS:
17
Q.
18
I don't remember what our
The source code for LaunchTile, were
you able to locate that?
19
A.
No, I was not.
20
Q.
Any idea what happened to it?
21
A.
Well, I know that Amy Karlson was
22
primarily responsible for writing it.
23
she managed source code, and I don't think I
24
probably followed it in that much detail.
25
that's why I -- when I looked, I didn't have it,
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
I believe
So
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 160
1
well demonstrating it.
2
BY MR. JACOBS:
3
Q.
So that's what I recall.
Were you demonstrating the software in
4
a live basis in conformance with what was
5
demonstrated on the video?
6
map what was on the video to your live
7
demonstration?
8
MR. HUANG:
9
THE WITNESS:
Were you trying to
Objection to the form.
No.
The video was a
10
short, you know, narrow summary, and when we
11
gave live demos it was much more casual.
12
would typically hand the device over to whoever
13
we were showing it to, let them do whatever they
14
want, ask us any questions.
15
seen the video, so they typically would want to
16
go beyond that.
17
BY MR. JACOBS:
18
Q.
We
They had already
Do you recall anything specifically
19
being demonstrated in May 2005 that wasn't in
20
the video?
21
A.
I don't recall the specific details of
22
what was or was not shown to any specific
23
individual.
24
25
Q.
Let me show you an email that you
produced to us.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 198
1
Then at time 1:15 seconds the user again
2
touched the screen, dragged down, let go, which
3
resulted in snapping forward to the Zone above.
4
And that's the end of the video.
5
BY MR. JACOBS:
6
Q.
In either of the videos did we see the
7
activity that's described in paragraph 14 of
8
your declaration?
9
10
11
12
13
A.
Neither video showed the activity
described in paragraph 14 of my declaration.
Q.
And that's what your declaration calls
the under-panning case, correct?
A.
I don't think -- paragraph 14 doesn't
14
use that term, but I believe this describes the
15
concept that was described earlier as
16
under-panning.
17
Q.
And to get back to the way the source
18
code works, that's the case where in the
19
three-stage interaction sequence where, after
20
landing on the screen, the finger is moved less
21
than 20% in the relevant direction -- sorry --
22
yes, less than one-sixth in the relevant
23
direction such that there is what the
24
declaration describes as a snapback.
25
A.
Correct.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 204
1
LaunchTile is motivated by the idea that, if
2
there are some places that are convenient for
3
the interface to go to, then you should make the
4
interface naturally take you to those places and
5
not let you get stuck in inconvenient places.
6
7
Q.
So you published an article recently,
"The Promise of Zoomable User Interfaces."
8
Mark this as the next in order.
9
(Exhibit No. 222 marked for
10
identification.)
11
BY MR. JACOBS:
12
Q.
The Promise of Zoomable User
13
Interfaces by Benjamin B. Bederson, 2011, Taylor
14
& Francis.
15
16
A.
What was this published in?
This was published in a journal named
Behaviour & Information Technology.
17
Q.
In 2011?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
On page 4 you have a discussion of
20
Desert Fog citing Jul and Furnas.
21
labels a phenomena that you describe as allowing
22
users to fly through the space going absolutely
23
anywhere including deep into the spaces between
24
objects.
25
A.
Desert Fog
Do you see that?
No, actually.
Sorry.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
Where are you?
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 205
1
Q.
It's on the right-hand column of --
2
it's such a vivid image I thought it might just
3
jump from the page.
4
page 4, second paragraph.
The right-hand column of
5
A.
Yes, I see this.
6
Q.
So just to maybe start a little bit
7
earlier, different zoomable user interfaces have
8
also had various navigation mechanisms, which
9
are ways for users to move through the space.
10
Again, there is a trade-off between flexibility
11
and usability.
12
fly through the space going absolutely anywhere,
13
including deep into the spaces between objects,
14
resulting in some researchers labeling this
15
phenomenon Desert Fog, Jul and Furnas.
16
say, very few other applications let a user
17
navigate beyond the actual content.
18
19
Some interfaces allow users to
Then you
Can you explain the contrast you were
drawing there between ZUIs and other applications?
20
MR. HUANG:
21
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
Sure.
So if we continue
22
reading this paragraph, it describes this idea
23
of not letting you navigate between the actual
24
content.
25
document browser and editor limits navigation to
I believe it says, almost every
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 206
1
the available content with the notable exception
2
of Microsoft Excel's scroll bar arrows, Apple
3
numbers, and Google -- I'm sorry -- with the
4
notable exception of Microsoft Excel's scroll
5
bar arrows.
6
spreadsheet, on the other hand, do limit
7
navigation.
8
allow you only to click on objects to zoom into
9
them and click on a zoom out button to zoom out,
Apple numbers and Google
On the other hand, some interfaces
10
making it impossible to get lost, but also
11
giving less control over exactly where you look.
12
So the point of this paragraph was to
13
describe that there are some applications that let
14
the user navigate in space possibly -- navigating
15
can be simple scrolling or it could be this kind of
16
zooming navigation, which is a little bit more
17
uncommon, or it could be 3-D navigation in a 3-D
18
world.
19
Sorry.
I was describing that sometimes you
20
can navigate to a place where there is no content.
21
If there is no content, then you're kind of in a
22
place that essentially -- typically -- represented
23
with an empty screen.
24
because that would make a user feel disoriented
25
since there is nothing on the screen.
And that was a concern
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 207
1
And I said that it was more common for
2
applications to stop a user from navigating to a
3
place where there was no content, although it
4
occurred, both in widespread applications like Excel
5
and in many ZUIs, in at least those.
6
Q.
So the basic contrast you were drawing
7
was between those ZUIs that are flexible but
8
haven't addressed this problem of getting lost
9
in Desert Fog, and most applications which do
10
constrain you to the space that's filled by
11
content.
12
of your paragraph correctly?
13
14
Is that -- am I capturing the essence
MR. HUANG:
Objection to the form of
the question.
15
THE WITNESS:
The paragraph said --
16
well, it didn't say "most."
17
few applications that let you move to a place
18
where there is no content, although I did
19
describe some, and many constrained you to
20
navigating only within available, visible
21
content.
22
BY MR. JACOBS:
23
Q.
It said there were
And that -- but you were describing
24
that, as of 2011, there remains this problem in
25
ZUIs of flying through the space going
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 216
1
underline the point, if one were to click on or
2
otherwise seek to get the underlying text of the
3
email on this device, the device does not have
4
the full email underneath the header, correct?
5
6
MR. HUANG:
Objection to the form of
the question.
7
THE WITNESS:
If you tap on one of
8
these email, I believe -- so, I guess, if you
9
press this button, it opens up a special kind of
10
menu, and, if you press the plus button, then it
11
will open up a representation of an email.
12
BY MR. JACOBS:
13
Q.
14
Is that the same email for every
header?
15
A.
Yes, it is.
16
Q.
So it's kind of a -- this is really a
17
prototype of what it could -- what this device
18
could do if you figured out how to get an email
19
client to create images for each header, store
20
them in the database, and link them to the
21
underlying message, correct?
22
A.
I think you just proposed a possible
23
architecture for implementing an email system.
24
So what I would say is this is a prototype that
25
demonstrates how email can work in this
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 217
1
environment.
2
Q.
With a prepopulated database of images
3
representing email headers and a single email
4
text, correct?
5
MR. HUANG:
6
THE WITNESS:
Objection to the form.
I would say with a
7
hard-coded set of email headers and a single
8
content of email.
9
BY MR. JACOBS:
10
Q.
11
12
Thank you.
MR. JACOBS:
Let's go off the record
again.
13
VIDEOGRAPHER:
14
Off the record at 4:43.
(Proceedings recessed.)
15
VIDEOGRAPHER:
16
4:45.
17
BY MR. JACOBS:
18
Q.
Back on the record at
So a couple other devices were given
19
to us by Quinn Emanuel, counsel for Samsung, and
20
I want to just check with you if you know
21
anything about the providence of those devices
22
and the appearance that one sees when one opens
23
them up.
24
25
So we have this iPAQ here that we
received, and we've taken a picture of the
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 223
1
A.
2
3
Correct.
MR. JACOBS:
I think we're done.
Thank you.
4
MR. HUANG:
5
THE WITNESS:
6
VIDEOGRAPHER:
Thank you.
Thank you.
This concludes the
7
deposition of Dr. Bederson.
8
4:57 and it consists of five tapes.
9
Off the record at
(Proceedings concluded.)
10
11
12
//
(Signature having not been waived, the
13
deposition of BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D.
14
concluded at 4:57 p.m.)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
Page 224
1
CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER
2
NOTARY PUBLIC
3
4
I, Linda S. Kinkade, RDR, CRR, RMR, CSR,
5
the notarial officer before whom the foregoing
6
proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that the
7
foregoing transcript is a true and correct record of
8
the proceedings; that said proceedings were taken by
9
me stenographically, to the best of my ability, and
10
thereafter reduced to typewriting; and that I am
11
neither counsel for or related to, nor employed by
12
any of the parties to this case and have no
13
interest, financial or otherwise, in its outcome.
14
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
15
hand and affixed my notarial seal this 17th day of
16
September 2011.
17
18
19
_______________________________
Linda S. Kinkade
20
21
22
NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR
23
THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
24
My commission expires:
July 14, 2012
25
TSG Reporting - Worldwide
(877)-702-9580
Disclaimer: Justia Dockets & Filings provides public litigation records from the federal appellate and district courts. These filings and docket sheets should not be considered findings of fact or liability, nor do they necessarily reflect the view of Justia.
Why Is My Information Online?