American Freedom Defense Initiative et al v. Suburban Mobility Authority For Regional Transportation (SMART) et al

Filing 58

MOTION for Summary Judgment by All Plaintiffs. (Attachments: # 1 Index of Exhibits, # 2 Exhibit 1--Declaration of Robert Spencer, # 3 Exhibit 2--Declaration of Pamela Geller, # 4 Exhibit 3--Declaration of Robert J. Muise, # 5 Exhibit 4--SMART deposition excerpts, # 6 Exhibit 5--SMART deposition exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 6--Beth Gibbons deposition excerpts, # 8 Exhibit 7--Pamela Geller deposition excerpts, # 9 Exhibit 8--Pamela Geller deposition exhibits, # 10 Exhibit 9--Elizabeth Dryden deposition excerpts) (Muise, Robert)

EXHIBIT 6

American Freedom Defense Initiative v.
SMART
Deponent: Beth Gibbons
Taken: 6/25/2013

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American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 5

Page 7

1

Ann Arbor, Michigan

1

she is diligently taking down everything that is

2

June 25, 2013

2

said during the course of this deposition;

3

At or about 9:00 a.m.

3

consequently, there are a few ground rules, that I'm

4

sure you're familiar with, having testified

BETH GIBBONS,

4
5

having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified

5

previously in court and at deposition, but I think

6

on her oath as follows:

6

it would be worthwhile to review those briefly so

7

(Gibbons Deposition Exhibit No. 42

7

hopefully we can have a clean record today, okay,

8

was marked for identification.)

8

ma'am?

EXAMINATION

9
10

BY MR. MUISE:

11

Q

The first, perhaps most important,

9

rule is that only one of us should be talking at a

10

Good morning, ma'am. My name is Robert Muise, and 11

time. There's a tendency in normal conversation

12

I'm an attorney representing the plaintiffs in this

12

that, when somebody's asking a question, you may

13

case, the plaintiffs being the American Freedom

13

anticipate the question and want to start answering

14

Defense Initiative, Robert Spencer, and Pamela

14

before the whole question is asked. I'd ask you to

15

Geller.

15

refrain from that tendency, let me get my complete

16

I'm going to be asking you some

16

question out, and then start answering, and I will

17

questions during the course of this deposition. I

17

likewise do the same and not ask a follow-up

18

believe we sort of met during the preliminary

18

question until you're done completely answering,

19

injunction hearing where you testified previously.

19

At the deposition today, to my right,

20

okay, ma'am?

20

A
Q

Okay.

21

is Dan Piedra, who is an assistant with my office at

21

22

the American Freedom Law Center, and then to his

22

23

right is Avery Gordon, who is an attorney

23

24

representing SMART, and to his right is

24

A

Sure.

25

Mr. Christian Hildebrandt, who I understand is going

25

Q

If I ask you a question and you don't understand the

And it's going to be important that the two of us
speak up and speak as clearly as we can, so, again,
our court reporter can hear everything, okay, ma'am?

Page 6

Page 8
1

question, my Boston accent still is kind of

2

lingering and I cut words off or I sometimes speak

name, for the record.

3

too quickly, I apologize ahead of time to our court

to be representing you today.

1

Could you please state your full

2
3
4

A

Beth Ann Gibbons.

4

reporter, let me know. I want to make sure you

5

Q

Is your first name Elizabeth, or you just go by

5

completely understand my questions before answering,

Beth?

6

okay, ma'am?

6

7

A

It's just Beth.

7

A

8

Q

And, ma'am, you've previously testified under oath

8

Q

at the preliminary injunction hearing, correct?

9

Yes.
And if there's a document that might help you to
more fully answer a particular question, let me

9

10

A

Yes.

10

know. There might be a good chance that I have it

11

Q

Have you ever given a deposition before?

11

here in my box, and I want to make sure that your

12

A

Yes.

12

answers are as full and complete as possible today,

13

Q

How many times?

13

14

A

Once.

14

A

15

Q

And what was the case?

15

Q

16

A

It was an employment matter, but it was not one of

16

deposition at any time, please let me know. This is

okay, ma'am?
Okay.
If you need a break during the course of the

17

not enhanced interrogation, by any stretch. The

18

Q

Employment matter at SMART?

18

only caveat being that, if we're in the middle of a

19

A

At SMART.

19

question and answer, I'd ask you complete answering

20

Q

So do you understand that today your testimony is

20

my employees.

17

the question before we take a break, okay?
A

(Witness nodded head.)

23

A

Yes.

And to your right is our court reporter, and perhaps 24

Q

21

given under oath as if you were testifying in a

21

22

court of law?

22

23

A

24

Q

25

Yes.
one of the most important people in this room, and

25

THE COURT REPORTER: Is that a "yes"?
That was the next thing I was going to bring up, so
there's a good example. You got to make sure that

2 (Pages 5 to 8)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 9

Page 11

1

you respond to the questions using words, not head

1

2

gestures, 'cause the court reporter can't take down

2

3

gestures, and refrain from answering questions

3

A

4

"um-hum" or "uh-huh"; use "yes," "no," so that way

4

Q

5

we can tell from the record at the end whether it's

5

6

an affirmative response or a negative response,

6

A

7

okay, ma'am?

7

Q

Okay.

8

8

A

9

Q

Is there any reason that you can think of, as you're

Mr. Chubb was designated to be the witness to
testify on behalf of SMART?
Yes.
So, in fact, that was the SMART deposition that you
technically reviewed, correct?
Correct.
Any other documents that you reviewed to help you
refresh your recollection of events related to this
litigation?

9

10

sitting here today, why it might be difficult for

10

A

11

you to fully understand and answer my questions,

11

Q

Now, ma'am, how are you currently employed?

12

meaning are you under any doctor's care, do you have 12

A

I am the manager of marketing communications at

13

any personal issues? I don't need to know any

13

14

details. I just want to make sure, as you're

14

Q

How long have you held that position?

15

sitting here today, that you're going to be able to

15

A

Five years, I believe.

16

fully understand and answer my questions. Is there

16

Q

17

anything you can think of that would prevent you

17

18

from fully understanding and answering my questions 18

A

19

here today?

19

Q

And what was your title at that time?

No.

20

A

I think it was a marketing program manager.

Q

20

A

21

Q

No.

SMART.

Was that the position you held when my clients'
advertisement was presented to SMART for display?
No, I had a different title.

In preparation for this deposition, did you review

21

any documents to help you refresh your recollection

22

22

position from the one you held previously as the
marketing program manager?

of the events related to this litigation?

23

24

A

Yes.

24

25

Q

And could you tell me what those documents were,

25

Is the position you hold now, is it an elevated

23

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object; vague.
A

Not sure what you mean by "elevated."

Page 10
ma'am.
A

3

1

BY MR. MUISE:

The Sixth Court opinion, the depositions of Pam

2

Q

Geller and Anthony Chubb. I think that's it.

1
2

Page 12

3

4

Q

And is your understanding --

4

5

A

Oh, the production documents, I'm sorry.

5

6

Q

When you say, "production documents," are those the

6

documents that were produced by SMART?

7

Certainly. Who held the position of manager of
marketing and what was the full title you have?

A

Marketing communications. That title didn't exist
at that time.

Q

7

Well, the title you hold now, was that a promotion
from the position you held previously?

8

A

Correct.

8

A

9

Q

And just so we're clear, I've been using the term

9

Q

Probably.
Is there somebody who is the marketing program

10

"SMART"; you understand that stands for Suburban

10

11

Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation,

11

A

12

correct?

12

Q

How long have you worked with SMART?

Yes.

13

A

20 years.

Q

13

A

14

Q

And SMART is one of the defendants in this case?

14

15

A

Yes.

15

16

Q

manager today?
No.

Are your job duties different from when you were
their marketing program manager to your position now

And is it okay with you if I use the acronym SMART

16

17

through the course of this deposition to help speed

17

A

18

things along?

18

Q

What has changed between the two?

Yes.

19

A

I'm now responsible for all of the marketing and

Now, the production you're referring to is the

20

19

A

20

Q

21

production that SMART provided to plaintiffs in this
case?

22

Yes.

23

Now, you refer to the deposition transcript of

24

Anthony Chubb; is it your understanding that

25

23

A

24

Q

25

Yes.

communication that go out to the, externally and

21

22

as the manager of marketing and communications?

internally.
Q

And what were your duty and responsibilities as the
marketing program manager?

A

I was responsible for smaller pieces of programs
that we ran.

3 (Pages 9 to 12)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 13
1

Q

Was one of those programs advertising on SMART buses

Page 15

3

A

4

Q

1

BY MR. MUISE:

and bus shelters?

2

2

Q

Have you seen this document prior to today, ma'am?

Yes.

3

A

Yes.

Do you still have responsibility over that

4

Q

advertising in your present position?

5

5

6

A

Yes.

6

7

Q

And when you were the marketing program manager, who

7

was your boss, the person you report to directly?

8

taken today; is that your understanding?
A

9

Yes.

8

Elizabeth Dryden.

And I'll just represent to you this is the
deposition notice by which your deposition is being

MR. HILDEBRANDT: She did not see

9

A

10

Q

Does she go by "Beth" as well?

10

11

A

Yes.

11

12

Q

I shouldn't say "as well," but we understand. Now,

12

BY MR. MUISE:

does Elizabeth Dryden currently work for SMART?

13

Q

No.

14

this one and the last one, I'll represent to you,

13

this one prior to today. This was just issued last
night. She saw a notice of deposition, but it
wasn't this one.
But you understand -- and the difference between

14

A

15

Q

Do you know when she left SMART?

15

was the change of the location because of our court

16

A

2010, I believe. Yes.

16

reporter issue. But you understand you're here

17

Q

Did you essentially take over her position, then,

17

today pursuant to a deposition notice?

when she left?

18

18

A
Q

Yes.

19

A

Yes.

19

20

Q

You seem hesitant, was there --

20

deposition notice, which identified this location

21

A

Well, I didn't get the title.

21

for the deposition.

22

Q

What was her title?

22

23

A

Director of external affairs.

23

disclosures to plaintiffs, they indicated, they

24

Q

Do you currently have a director of external

24

identified you as a potential witness with personal

25

knowledge, and they indicated that you have personal

affairs?

25

And I'll represent to you that this is the latest

In the defendants' initial

Page 14

Page 16

1

A

No.

1

2

Q

Now, when you were the marketing program manager,

2

knowledge of SMART's policies and the application
thereof; is that a correct statement?

who was the general manager for SMART?

3

3

A
Q

4

A

John Hertel.

4

5

Q

Is he currently the general manager for SMART?

5

6

A

Yes.

6

A

7

Q

Do you know how long he's been the general manager

7

Q

for SMART?

8
9

A

Not really.

10

Q

Has it been the whole 20 years that you've been

And the policy that will be at issue in this case is
the advertising guidelines; you understand that?
Yes.
And do you have personal knowledge of SMART's
application of the advertising guidelines?

8
9

A

10

Q

there?

11

Yes.

11

Yes.
In fact, in your position as marketing program
manager, you were required at times to apply those

12

A

No.

12

13

Q

Has it been more than ten years?

13

A

14

A

No.

14

Q

15

Q

Do you know if he was the general manager when my 15

guidelines to various advertising; is that correct?
Yes.
And do you still have that responsibility today in
the position that you're holding now?

16

clients' advertisement was, and this is the "leaving

16

A

17

Islam" advertisement, was presented to SMART for

17

Q

Yes.

18

display?

18

Exhibit No. 2 from the SMART/Chubb, too, but it's

I'm handing you what's been previously marked as

19

A

Yes.

19

from the SMART deposition, Exhibit No. 2; if you'll

20

Q

Ma'am, I hand you what's been previously marked as

20

take a look at that. Do you recognize the
advertisement depicted on page two of Exhibit 2 to

21

Exhibit No. 42, 'cause I'm running my plaintiffs'

21

22

exhibits consecutively from the other deposition of

22

23

SMART.

23

A

24

Q

24
25

MR. MUISE: Counsel, you can take a
quick look at that.

25

be my clients' advertisement at issue in this case?
Yes.
And just for completeness, I'm handing you what's
been marked previously as Exhibit SS from the Geller

4 (Pages 13 to 16)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 17
deposition; is that the same advertisement at issue?

1
2

Page 19

A

1

Yes.

2
MR. HILDEBRANDT: How is it you have

3

the original exhibits from Geller's deposition?

4

3
4

5

MR. MUISE: I don't.

5

6

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Okay.

6

7

MR. MUISE: It's a photocopy.

7

8

BY MR. MUISE:

9

Q

8
9

Exhibit No. 3 from the SMART/Chubb deposition; do

10

I'm handing you what's been previously marked as

10

you recognize what that document depicts, ma'am?

11

12

A

Yes.

12

13

Q

And does this contain, this Exhibit No. 3, contain

13

11

the advertising guidelines at issue in this case?

14

14

15

A

Yes.

15

16

Q

And if you look on the third page of the exhibit,

16

17

but it's marked as page 40 at the bottom, and it

17

18

says, "5.07, Advertising Guidelines; do you see

18

19

that, ma'am?

19

Yes.

20

And those advertising guidelines identified under

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20

A

21

Q

22

section 5.07, those are the guidelines that were

22

23

used to deny my clients' advertisement in this case;

23

24

is that correct, ma'am?

24

Yes.

25

25

A

that's not a stipulation I will agree to.
MR. HILDEBRANDT: I get that.
MR. MUISE: I disagree with your
proposal. You can state it for the record, if you'd
like, but that's fine. We'll deal with that with
the summary judgment motions.
MR. HILDEBRANDT: The witness is here
to give her personal knowledge. Go ahead and tell
him, if you can.
A I believe it was section 5.07, B, one and four.
BY MR. MUISE:
Q What was it about my clients' advertisement that
was, looking at 5.07, B, one, political or political
campaign advertising? What was it that, is your
understanding, as to what made my clients' leaving
Islam advertisement political or political campaign
advertising?
A It was the use of "fatwa on your head" that was
deemed to be political, and then the website, the
actual website and the references within the
website.
Q And what was it about "fatwa on your head" that
makes this advertisement political?
A Fatwa is a legal mandate under Sharia law, and that
makes it political.

Page 18
1

Q

And which of the guidelines, is it your

Page 20
1

Q

2

understanding, that were employed to deny my

2

3

clients -- and just for the purpose of this

3

A

4

deposition, the advertisement that's at Exhibit SS

4

Q

5

and Exhibit 2 that we identified as my clients'

5

6

advertisement, I'm going to refer to it as the

6

7

leaving Islam advertisement; is that okay with you,

7

A

8

ma'am?

8

Q

9
10

A
Q

Sure.
So which of the guidelines under section 5.07 of

No.
And then you mentioned the website; what is it that
was on the website that made this advertisement a
political advertisement?

10

Exhibit 3 were employed to deny my clients' leaving 11

A

12

Islam advertisement?

Q

MR. HILDEBRANDT: We've already

Did you know that a fatwa was a legal mandate under
declined by SMART?

11
13

In preparing for this today.
Sharia law back when my clients' advertisement was

9

12

When did you come to an understanding that a fatwa
is a legal mandate under Sharia law?

Because they were advocating for a particular side.
Did you review the website back when my clients'
advertisement was originally declined by SMART?

13

14

produced a witness on behalf of SMART under Rule 14

A

15

30(b)(6) who has testified to this. As she's

Q

16

testifying to this today, she's not binding SMART in 16

you reviewed it back when my clients' advertisement

17

any way.

was denied?

18

15
17

MR. MUISE: You can believe that, if

I may have. I don't really recall.
What do you recall about being on the website when

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Asked and answered.

18

A

I couldn't tell you.

19

you want. She's a defendant in this case, and we'll

20

let the Court decide how binding her statements are 20

BY MR. MUISE:

21

on the defense in this case.

Q

19
21

How did you learn to testify here today that there

22

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Certainly she's

22

was something on the website that SMART used to

23

binding on the defendant, but she's not being

23

determine this advertisement was political?

24

produced as the witness on behalf of SMART today. 24

25

MR. MUISE: I understand that. But

25

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object
to the form of the question. How did you learn to

5 (Pages 17 to 20)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 21
MR. MUISE: Is that what said? What

2

I don't remember if I did.
You, in your position as the, the previous position,

4

marketing program manager, you make determinations,

5

you can or you have made determinations of whether

ahead.

6

an advertisement should be displayed or not

How did I learn today that -- can you repeat the

7

displayed based on the advertising guidelines,

question. I'm not sure I understood it.

8

(The last question was read back.)
MR. HILDEBRANDT: Same objection. Go

5
6

A

8
10

Q

and I guess, apparently, your position today, as the

4

9

A

2
3

was the question, ma'am?

3

7

1

testify today?

1

Page 23

BY MR. MUISE:
Q

9

Okay. Let me try rephrasing it, it might help. You

correct?
A
Q

11

testified that there were essentially two things, as

11

12

I recall, you said SMART used to determine that it

12

13

was a political advertisement.

13

A

14

Q

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object

14

I usually, if it's presented to me, send it to legal
for an opinion.

10

But you have the authority to make a determination
to run an ad or not run an ad; isn't that correct?
I could.
When you make determinations to run or not run an

15

to the mischaracterization. She did not say that

15

ad, in your capacity as the program manager, do you

16

SMART used that. She's testifying to what she has

16

always look at websites that are referenced on the

17

personal knowledge of.

17

advertisements that are presented?

18

BY MR. MUISE:

18

A

19

Q

19

Q

Okay. Is it your personal knowledge that SMART
determined that fatwa was a legal mandate under

21

21

Is it my understanding?

But is it the policy that you always look at the
websites?

20

Sharia law?

20

It could be part of the decision, yes.

22

22

A

23

Q

Yes, ma'am.

23

24

A

Yes.

24

25

Q

Okay. And is it your understanding that SMART made 25

MR. HILDEBRANDT: This is not being
presented, put forward, the policy, but rather her
personal knowledge.
BY MR. MUISE:
Q

I'm asking about your personal knowledge regarding

Page 22

Page 24

1

some determination this was political also based on

1

2

what was contained on the website

2

A

3

RefugeFromIslam.com?

3

Q

In every case.

Yes.

4

A

Yes.

Q

4

A

5

Q

the application of SMART's policy.
Yes, it would become part of the process.

And what was it, based on your understanding, that

5

was political about the website RefugeFromIslam.com?

6

6

Exhibit 3, are there any other guidelines or manuals

Aside from the guidelines that we looked at in

7

A

I don't know. I mean, I don't know specifics.

7

or policies, that you're aware of, that would

8

Q

When this advertisement was presented to SMART for

8

provide a definition for what is political or not

9

political in terms of how these guidelines are

display, did that request come through you or to

9

you?

10

10

applied?

11

A

Yes.

11

12

Q

And when you viewed this advertisement, did you

12

A

13

determine, based on your understanding of SMART's

13

BY MR. MUISE:

14

guidelines, whether it was political or not

14

Q

15

political?

15
16

16

A

I sent it to legal for an opinion.

17

Q

What was your view when you saw this advertisement 17
when it was first presented to you; did you believe

19

19

Not necessarily.

referring again to Exhibit 3?
A

20

20

A

21

Q

Why not?

A

I didn't really have a good understanding of what

22

the ad was or what it meant.

23

23
24
25

Q

Did you go to the website to find out more about the
advertisement?

24
25

My understanding is that political is when somebody
advocates for a particular side.

Q

21

22

What is your understanding of the term "political,"
as used by these advertising guidelines, and I'm

18

it was political at that time?

18

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Go ahead.
No.

When did you come to an understanding that that was
the definition of political that's employed for the
application of these advertising guidelines?

A

I've always known that. I guess it's just
qualifying it with words is a difficult subject.
MR. MUISE: How did she answer that,
"qualifying it" --

6 (Pages 21 to 24)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 25
(The last answer was read back.)

Page 27
1

Q

Do you know what Detroit CoR is?

2

BY MR. MUISE:

2

A

It's called Coalition of Reason.

3

Q

3

Q

1

Would it be fair to say that you were able to
qualify it with words after reading the SMART/Chubb

4

4

And you're referring to, there's a website on that
advertisement; is that correct?

deposition?

5

A

6

A

Yes.

6

Q

It's DetroitCoR.org?

7

Q

Prior to reading that deposition, would you have

7

A

Correct.

qualified it with words in the same manner?

8

Q

I don't know.

9

5

8
9

A

10

Q

12

A

13

Q

A

11

Q

A particular side.

12

A particular side. Can't read my own writing, I'm

Yes?
And when you reviewed that advertisement, did you go
look at that website, DetroitCoR.org?

Q

13

A

14

Q

Do you recall what was listed on that website?

Depends; pro or con, however, you know, depending on

15

A

No.

the issue or the subject.

A

16
17

10

sorry. Particular side of what?

14
15

So if you said political is advocating for a

Did you get a chance to review that advertisement
before it was accepted by SMART?

political side?

11

Yes.

16

Q

Based on your understanding, would advocating for a 17

I may have. I don't know.

Do you recall whether that website advocated for a
certain, advocated for a particular side of an

18

political side be, for example, an advertisement

18

19

that advocated for the non-existence of God?

19

A

20

Q

You don't recall, or you don't know if it did?

hypothetical.

21

A

I would say no, because it was posted.

Advocating for it? I don't know. I couldn't answer

22

Q

that. I'd have to see the ad.

23

we're referring to, I'll refer to it, we can refer

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object to the

20
21
22

A

23

issue?
I would say no.

Now, is your understanding this advertisement that

24

BY MR. MUISE:

24

to it as the Detroit Coalition of Reason or the

25

Q

25

atheist advertisement; are you okay with either one

You have seen a similar ad, haven't you, ma'am?

Page 26

Page 28

1

Handing you what's been marked Exhibit No. 4.

1

2

MR. HILDEBRANDT: It's not a

2

A
Q

of those?
That's fine.

3

question.

3

4

BY MR. MUISE:

4

5

Q

5

A

6

Q

It was, in fact, vandalized, correct?

MR. HILDEBRANDT: What deposition?

7

A

Yes.

MR. MUISE: From the SMART/Chubb

Handing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit
No. 4. Do you recognize the --

6
7

Do you have any personal knowledge that this atheist
advertisement was vandalized while it was displayed?
Yes.

8

Q

Do you know what the nature of the vandalism was?

9

deposition.

9

A

I can see this, in this particular picture, that the

10

BY MR. MUISE:

10

11

Q

11

8

exhibit, ma'am?

12
13

Do you recognize the advertisement depicted in that

A

12

Yes.

piece of the ad was pulled off and some scratching
on the word "don't."

13
MR. HILDEBRANDT: We can recognize

14

Q

advocate for a particular side of an issue?

14

15

Chubb/SMART as either Chubb or SMART. We understand 15

A

16

the nature of SMART and the nature of Chubb in that

16

Q

17

deposition, you can refer to it either way. I don't

17

18

have any problem with it.

18

MR. MUISE: Okay.

19

So an advertisement that says, "Don't believe in
God, question mark, "you're not alone," does not
I believe it's a religious ad.
When you say you believe it's a religious ad, but
can't religious ads also advocate for a particular
side?

19

A
Q

It could.

20

BY MR. MUISE:

20

21

Q

In the SMART exhibit that I just handed you, do you

21

exist, that would be a political ad under SMART's
guidelines?

recognize that advertisement contained on page two?

22

23

A

Yes.

23

24

Q

And what advertisement was that?

24

25

A

It's the CoR ad, Detroit CoR ad.

25

22

For example, advocating for a side that God doesn't

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object
to the hypothetical.
A

Could you state the question again.

7 (Pages 25 to 28)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 29
(The last question was read back.)

1
2

A

3
4

Page 31
probably responsible for handling it.

1

Yes, I believe so.

2

Q

And why do you say that?

BY MR. MUISE:

3

A

Just because there was a couple of us that did the

Q

Now, the atheist advertisement, when it was

4

5

displayed, did it create controversy, that you're

5

Q

And who else besides you?

6

aware of?

6

A

It was another employee from marketing department.

website in terms of posting.

7

A

Yes.

7

Q

Was it somebody that worked for you?

8

Q

What controversy are you aware of?

8

A

No.

9

A

9

Q

11

There were some complaints from the public and
drivers, and then, obviously, the vandalism.

10

Q

What were the complaints from the public, that

11

A

you're aware of?

12

Somebody that had similar on the employment food
chain, so to speak?

10
12

Q

They didn't like the ad being on the bus.

13

Yeah.
And what was your understanding of the background

13

A

14

Q

They say why?

14

15

A

Not that I remember.

15

16

Q

How about drivers?

16

17

A

Drivers refused to drive those buses.

17

18

Q

Why?

18

19

A

Because it went against their belief.

19

section of the web page we're looking at on SMART

20

Q

What belief?

20

Exhibit 6 as a result of the Detroit CoR, or atheist

21

A

Either they believed -- they must have believed in

21

God, I don't know, or their religion.

22

A

Handing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 23

Q

22
23
24
25

Q

No. 6.

for the reason of putting that sentence on this part
of the web page?
A

the Detroit CoR ad.
Q

2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Was there anything else that was added to this

advertisement, controversy?
I believe the third paragraph.
And the whole section that's in bold, "Advertising

24
25

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Chubb 6?

posted on SMART property does not always reflect the
views or opinions of SMART, its employees, or

Page 30
1

Well, because of the controversy, people were
questioning the posting of our ad, or of that ad, of

MR. MUISE: SMART 6.
MR. HILDEBRANDT: Fine.
MR. MUISE: Yes.
BY MR. MUISE:
Q Do you recognize this web page, ma'am?
A Yes.
Q If you look under the advertising guidelines, and
there's three paragraphs under that section; do you
see that, ma'am?
A Yes.
Q To the second sentence of the first paragraph, it
reads, "First Amendment free speech rights require
that SMART not censor free speech and because of
that, SMART is required to provide equal access to
advertising on our vehicles."
A Yes.
Q Did I state that correctly?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if that sentence was added to these
advertising guidelines following the controversy
related to the atheist advertisement?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any role or responsibility in adding
that language to this web page?
A I think so. I don't remember doing it, but I was

Page 32
1
2
3
4
5

A
Q
A
Q

6
7
8

A
Q

9
10
11
12
13

A
Q

14
15
16
17
18
19

A
Q

20
21
22
23
24
25

A
Q

riders"?
That's correct.
And was that something that you added?
I believe so.
And, again, that was added in response to the
controversy regarding the atheist advertisement?
Yes.
Is there anything that changed, from your
perspective, in SMART's application of its
advertising guidelines following the controversy
with the atheist advertisement?
No.
I believe from SMART's deposition, that, based on
those guidelines, that that atheist advertisement
would, if presented, be permissible under the
guidelines again today; would you hold the same
view?
I believe so.
'Cause the guidelines that were in place when my
clients' advertisement was declined were the same
guidelines that were used to accept the Detroit
Coalition of Reason advertisement, correct?
Yes.
And those guidelines are the same as they are
sitting here today, correct?

8 (Pages 29 to 32)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 33

Page 35

1

A

Yes.

1

2

Q

When my clients' advertisement, the leaving Islam

2

Question, "Ms. Gibbons, you

Mr. Yerushalmi:

3

advertisement, was presented for review, I believe

3

understand you're testifying here on behalf of

4

you indicated that you sent it to the office of the

4

SMART, correct"?

5

general counsel for review, correct?

5

Yes.

6

A

Did you make a recommendation to the office of

7

Q

Your answer was, "Yes."

8

A

Okay.

6

A

7

Q

8

general counsel whether you believe the

9

advertisement complied with the particular
MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object

11

9

Q

Do you recall that?

10

guidelines or contrary to the guidelines?

10

Do you remember what your answer was?
No.

A

Sure.

11

Q

And this transcript is already part of the record as

12

to that question; that infringes upon SMART's

12

13

attorney/client privilege. To the extent that this

13

A

14

manager, employee, of SMART sought legal opinions or 14

Q

15

legal advice from the general counsel's office,

15

16

those conversations, and any content on them, are

16

A

17

privileged, and I'm instructing the witness not to

17

Q

"Yes"?

18

answer that question.

18

A

Yes, I did. Sorry.

Q

document number 18.
Okay.
You were testifying under oath at that time; you
understood that, right, ma'am?
Um-hum.

19

BY MR. MUISE:

19

20

Q

Are you going to follow your attorney's advice?

20

you were asked questions about SMART's application

21

A

Yes.

21

of the policy to the Detroit Coalition of Reason, or

22

Q

So you're not going to answer that question?

22

atheist advertisement, that we've been referring to

23

A

Yes.

23

in Exhibit 4; do you remember being asked questions

24

Q

When you presented the advertisement to the general 24
counsel for review, did you seek information beyond

25

25

Do you recall, during this sworn testimony in court,

about that, ma'am?
A

Yeah.

Page 34

Page 36
Q

Do you remember being asked this question:

1

whether or not the advertisement comported with

1

2

SMART's advertising guidelines as set forth in the

2

3

Exhibit 3, SMART Exhibit 3?

3

this ad was in compliance with its advertising

Question, "When SMART determined that

4

policies, guidelines, and procedures it examined

5

that that is privileged information. When this

5

just the ad copy and the art work, correct"?

6

manager, employee, seeks the counsel of the general

6

7

counsel's office, she is engaging in attorney/client

7

8

privileged communications, and I'm going to instruct

8

A

9

the witness not to answer.

9

Q

The answer was, "Yes"; that sound correct, ma'am?

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object

4

Do you remember your answer to that
question?
No.

10

BY MR. MUISE:

10

A

Sure.

11

Q

11

Q

Then the next question was:

Are you going to follow your attorney's
instructions?

12

Yes.

"It didn't look to things extrinsic

12
13

13

A

14

Q

So you're not going to answer the question?

14

15

A

Yes.

15

16

Q

Now, ma'am, when you testified at the hearing on the 16
17

17

correct?

Do you remember your answer to that
question?
A

No.

Q

You answered, "Correct."

18

A

Okay.

Q

preliminary injunction; you remember doing that,

18

to the advertising itself to determine that."

19

A

Yes.

19

20

Q

You understood, at that time, that you were

20

that, when SMART reviewed the atheist advertisement,
that it did not look at its website?

So as you sit here today, is it your recollection

21

designated by SMART to testify on behalf of SMART

21

22

during that hearing; isn't that correct?

22

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object to the

I didn't really realize the distinction at the time,

23

vagueness, and object to the mischaracterization of

I would say.

24

23

A

24
25

Q

Okay. Do you recall being asked this question by

25

the prior testimony. Go ahead.
A

Well, I sent it to legal for review.

9 (Pages 33 to 36)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 53

Page 55
1

A

2

view, one way or the other, whether the

2

Q

Is it your email address today?

3

advertisement should be accepted or rejected under

3

A

Yes.

4

SMART's advertising guidelines?

4

Q

Are you familiar with this communication?

5

A

I don't remember it offhand, but, obviously, it was

1

Q

And during this collaboration did you express any

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object

5

Yes.

sent to me.

6

to any reference or questions concerning any

6

7

conversations that took place with the office of the

7

8

general counsel in this matter as attorney/client

8

email from Hawkins to [e-mail], is an

9

email to my client, Pamela Geller; is that your

privileged, and I'm instructing her not to answer.

9

Q

And it appears that this bottom communication, the

understanding?

10

BY MR. MUISE:

10

11

Q

You're going to follow your attorney's instructions?

11

A

12

A

Yes.

12

Q

13

Q

Are you going to answer the question?

13

Mr. Hawkins, the beginning, it says, "My primary

14

A

No.

14

contact at SMART called today to notify me that your

15

Q

Did you ever have any conversations with the general 15

Yes.
And it's referring to, in the email from

ad was not approved"; do you see that?

16

manager, outside the presence of general counsel,

16

A

17

referring to my clients' advertisement, the leaving

17

Q

18

Islam advertisement?

18

Yes.
And then it appears that he has Beth Gibbons below
and a phone number; you see that, ma'am?

19

A

Nope.

19

A

20

Q

Did you ever have any conversations with anyone at

20

Q

Is that your phone number?

SMART outside the presence of the general counsel

21

A

Yes.

regarding my clients leaving Islam advertisement?

22

Q

No.

23

Have you ever heard anyone at SMART refer to my

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

Did you give him a reason as to why the

21
22
23

A

24

Q

client or my clients' advertisement as being either

25

Yes.

And did you contact Robert Hawkins to inform him
that the advertisement was not approved?

Page 54

Page 56

anti-Islam or Islamophobic?

1

2

A

No.

2

A

3

Q

The Exhibits No. 43 and 44, in particular the

3

Q

Why not?

article in Exhibit No. 44, did you forward those to

4

A

It's not usually our policy. We'll just, that it

1

4

anyone?

5

6

A

I did.

6

7

Q

You did?

7

8

A

I did.

8

9

Q

Who did you forward them to?

10

A

I think I forwarded it to legal; probably my boss,

11

I don't believe so.

10

Beth Dryden. From that point, I don't know.

advertisement was not approved?

5

11

MR. MUISE: We've been going for

12

about an hour, you want to take five?

13

9

was against the guidelines, the advertising
guidelines.
Q

Do you know if you even told him that it was against
the advertising guidelines?

A

I probably did.
MR. HILDEBRANDT: Don't "probably."
The question is, do you know.

12

A

13

BY MR. MUISE:

I don't know for sure.

Q

14

MR. GORDON: Please.

14

15

(Break was taken.)

15

16

(Gibbons Deposition Exhibit No. 45

16

17

was marked for identification.)

17

A

18

Q

And you were cc'd on that email as well?

45.

19

A

Yes.

Q

18

Q

19

Ma'am, I hand you what's been marked as Exhibit No.

And in the email above that, appears to be an email
back from [e-mail], Pamela Geller, to
Robert Hawkins; you see that?
Yes.

20

A

Okay.

20

21

Q

Now, the bottom part of this exhibit appears to be

21

you for getting back to me. What was it about the

And in this email, she says, "Beth and Robert, thank

22

an email from Robert Hawkins to, the address is

22

ad that was not approved and what would have to be

23

Write, W-r-i-t-e, [e-mail], and cc on there is

23

changed? Please let me know so we can get this

24

[e-mail]. Is [e-mail] an 24

25

email address that you've used?

25

campaign on the road."
A

Okay.

14 (Pages 53 to 56)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 57

Page 59
Q

Have you communicated, in other situations where an

1

Q

Did I say that correctly?

1

2

A

Yes.

2

advertisement was declined, did you communicate to,

3

Q

And do you recall ever responding to Ms. Geller?

3

either through Robert Hawkins or the individual who

4

A

I do not.

4

was proposing the advertisement, to explain to them

5

Q

Do you know why you didn't respond to Ms. Geller?

5

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Do you know why she

6

6
7

does not recall or why she didn't? You asked her if
she recalled doing it, and she said she did not, but

8

9

she did not say that she did not respond.

I may have. I can't remember off the top of my head
right now.

7

8

why an advertisement was rejected by SMART?
A

9

10

A

Do you know why you didn't do it in this case?

10

I'm sorry.

Q
A

I don't know.

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Asked and answered.

11

BY MR. MUISE:

12

BY MR. MUISE:

12

Q

13

Q

Did you respond to Ms. Geller?

13

14

A

I do not believe I did.

14

15

Q

Why not?

15

A

16

A

I don't know.

16

Q

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Sorry.

11

17

(Gibbons Deposition Exhibit No. 46
was marked for identification.)

18

advertisement prior to today?
Was this an advertisement that came across your desk

A

I remember the ad. I don't know if I was the one
involved in this.

20

Ma'am, I hand you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 19
20
46. And just for time reference, you look at

Q

What do you remember about seeing this ad?

21

Exhibit No. 45, it appears that those two emails we

21

A

That it had been rejected by SMART.

22

were referring to were sent on May 24th of 2010,

22

Q

23

correct?

23

19

Q

Yes.
at SMART?

17

18

I'm handing you what's been previously marked as
SMART Exhibit No. 7. Do you recall seeing this

Do you know if you had any role in the decision to
reject this advertisement by SMART?

24

A

Yes.

24

A

I don't believe I did. I think I was on vacation.

25

Q

Then on 46 appears to be another email, up top, sent 25

Q

Do you know why SMART rejected this advertisement?

Page 58

Page 60

on May 27, correct?

1

A

2

A

Yes.

2

Q

Do you know why this is deemed to be political?

3

Q

And you were cc'd on this email, correct?

3

A

Because it's about abortion.

4

A

Looks like it, but my address isn't there.

4

Q

5

Q

On the cc, it says, "Gibbons, Beth," correct?

5

as opposed to actually, see, how did you define it,

6

A

Correct.

6

advocating a particular side, based on your

7

Q

Look at the very top of the email, it says,

7

understanding of applying these guidelines?

1

"Gibbons, Beth," right?

8
9

A

10

Q

Are there certain subject matter that are political

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object to the

8

Yes.

They deemed it to be political.

9

vagueness of the question. Go ahead.

10

A

email file; is that right?

11

11

BY MR. MUISE:
Q

So it's likely this email was printed from your

12

A

Yes, that would be right.

12

13

Q

And in this email Pam Geller is emailing to Robert

13

14

Hawkins, cc'ing you, "Robert, Beth hasn't answered

14

15

me. Can you tell me who in SMART actually were

15

16

involved in the decision. Will contact them as

16

17

well. Thanks, Pamela"; do you see that?

17

Yes.

18

Do you recall at any time, either after the May 24

19

18

A

19

Q

20

email or May 27, did you contact Ms. Geller to

21

inform her of the basis for SMART's decision to deny 21
22
her advertisement?

22

20

There's no list.
Do you know, does this advertisement advocate for a
particular side of an issue?

A

Well, it looks to be, yes; I mean, yes. You know,
it was deemed political, it wasn't posted. That's
my understanding of the ad.

Q

Based on your understanding of the guidelines, do
you have a belief as to why you think this
advertisement was political?

A

Well, abortion is very political, it's a politicized
issue. There's people who advocate for both sides.

Q

And just so I'm clear on this, so there are certain

No.

23

issues, even though the advertisement may not be

Q

Do you know why?

24

advocating for a particular side, but there are

A

No.

25

certain issues where there are different sides of

23

A

24
25

15 (Pages 57 to 60)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 65

Page 67

1

Q

By my client.

1

make a determination yourself that it violated the

2

A

Yes.

2

advertising guideline that prohibits advertising

3

Q

And do you know, at that point, SMART said that it

3

that is clearly defamatory or likely to hold up to

would run the advertisement?

4

scorn or ridicule any person or group of persons; is

4
5

A

Yes, they agreed to post it.

5

6

Q

And were you involved in that determination?

6

A

7

A

I was, yeah. I was part of the collaboration.

7

Q

8

Q

So the advertisement, "Don't believe in Muhammad,"

8

advertising, is there anything based on that

9

advertisement that you believe violates that

question mark, "You are not alone," that itself

9

that correct?
I did not.
And as you sit here today looking at the

10

doesn't convey a political message, based on your

10

11

understanding of political as SMART applies it, in

11

12

the advertising guidelines?

12

it implies that, you know, there's harm, with your

13

family or community threatening you, could hold

13

A

No.

14

Q

provision of the advertising guidelines?
A

Looking back at my clients' advertisement, which was 14

Well, I believe, with the "fatwa on your head," that

people up to scorn or ridicule. It implies that.

15

marked as Exhibit SS, as well as part of SMART

15

16

Exhibit 2, when you viewed that advertisement did

16

17

you believe, at the time when you viewed it, that it

17

18

was disparaging towards any group or individuals in

18

A

I believe that's what this ad is.

19

violation of SMART's advertising guidelines?

19

Q

But do you know --

I didn't know. I forwarded it to legal for their

20

opinion.

21

20

A

21

Q

Do you know if, under Islam, there are fatwas that
are issued for people who leave Islam where threats
are made against individuals for doing so?

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Do you know if
that's the case under Islam.

22

Q

Did you say you didn't know or, I'm not sure.

22

BY MR. MUISE:

23

A

I didn't know.

23

Q

Do you know if that's a fact?

24

Q

You didn't know. So based on looking at that

24

A

Apparently.

25

Q

So is your understanding that there's anything in

advertisement, you, Beth Gibbons, could not

25

Page 66

Page 68

1

determine whether or not it was disparaging towards

1

2

any group under the advertising guidelines?

2

A

this advertisement that's not truthful about Islam?
Q

I don't know. I don't know that much detail.

3

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object to the

3

4

vagueness of the question. You mean at the time?

4

issue against an individual for leaving Islam and
that fatwa may contain violence against the

5

BY MR. MUISE:

5

6

Q

When you first say that advertisement.

6

7

A

I knew that this could impact SMART, so I forwarded

7

A

it to legal for their opinion.

8

Q

8
9

Q

Right. You already testified you had personal

individual.

knowledge as to how the advertising guidelines are

10

11

applied and at times you make determinations,

11

12

correct?

12

13

A

I have not.

Q

You have the authority to make determinations,

14

My understanding, from prior testimony, is that the
those advertising guidelines were in place in 2008;
is that your understanding?

A

13

14

Yes.
advertising guidelines we've been discussing today,

9

10

But you have some understanding that a fatwa can

I believe, with the new contract, they were placed
into that.

Q

And under those guidelines the only advertisements

correct?

15

15

that have been rejected because they're political

16

A

I can.

16

are my clients' leaving Islam advertisement, the

17

Q

So based on your understanding of the advertising

17

abortion advertisement that we've been referring to

18

guidelines, when you saw this, was there anything

18

here that's Exhibit No. 7 from the SMART deposition,

19

that you saw that violated the guideline that

19

and then, apparently, the most recent advertisement

20

prohibits advertising that is clearly defamatory or

20

submitted by my client, which, I believe, was

21

likely to hold up to scorn or ridicule any person or

21

Exhibit tango, tango, with the website.

22

group of persons?

22

I didn't have a good understanding of the ad at the

23

to the form of the question. She didn't testify

time, so I forwarded it to legal for their opinion.

24

that that was rejected because it was political.

23

A

24
25

Q

So based on looking at the advertisement, you didn't 25

MR. HILDEBRANDT: I'm going to object

She said it was because of scorn.

17 (Pages 65 to 68)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 89
1

A

Yes.

advertisement, he's sending that up to you; is that

1

MR. GORDON: Take your time. Make

2

Page 91
right?

2

sure you know what it is.

3

3

A

Okay.

4

Q

4

A

5

BY MR. MUISE:

5

6

Q

Have you seen these emails prior to today, ma'am?

6

7

A

Yes.

7

A

8

Q

The very bottom email appears to be an email from

8

Q

Robert Hawkins to a Gende Huang, G-e-n-d-e, last

9
11

A

correct?

10

A

11

Q

MR. HILDEBRANDT: From Hawkins to
Huang?

13

A

14

BY MR. MUISE:

14

Q

15

Q

Excuse me, from Huang to Hawkins.

15

16

A

Okay. Yes.

16

A

17

Q

And based on this email, it appears that Gende Huang 17

Q

is the national coordinator for United Coalition of

18

It looks like you forwarded this up on January 12th
Yes.
And then you get an email, it appears, back from
Yes.
And he emails you and cc's Elizabeth Dryden and
Avery Gordon; is that right?

Reason; is that fair to say?

19

A

A

Yes.

20

Q

21

Q

Have you ever had any conversations with Gende

21

Yes.
And in that email he says that there's nothing about
that advertisement that violates any provisions of

Huang?

22

23

A

No.

23

A

24

Q

Any communications with Gende Huang?

24

Q

25

A

No.

25

22

Correct.

Anthony Chubb the next day, correct?

20

19

And it was your understanding that the title of the

of 2010; is that right?

12

13

18

Yes.
ads when you forwarded this up were "Godless"?

9

Yes.

12

And then it appears that you forward that up to
Anthony Chubb, Avery Gordon, and Elizabeth Dryden,

name, H-u-a-n-g; do you see that?

10

Yes.

the advertising guidelines; is that correct?
Yes.
In the second paragraph, he says, "We do have to
continue being very careful on this issue and in

Page 90
1

making the determination of whether proposed

2

atheist or DetroitCoR.org advertisement we discussed

2

advertisements are simple information items or cross

3

previously?

3

the line and make political statements"; you see

1

Q

Is it your understanding that this is related to the

Page 92

4

A

Yes.

4

5

Q

Did you ever do any research on the United Coalition

5

A

of Reason organization?

6

Q

Yes.

7

the application of guidelines, does SMART apply to

6

that?
Yes.
What factors, in terms of your personal knowledge of

7

A

8

Q

And what did you do?

8

determine whether an advertisement crosses the line

9

A

I probably went to the website.

9

and makes political statements?

10

Q

Was this in the context of reviewing the atheist,
Detroit CoR, advertisement?

11

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Object to

10
11

vagueness. Object to lack of foundation.

12

A

Yes, as part of that process.

12

13

Q

Was there anything on that advertisement that you

13

sense plays a role, and taking a look at the, you
know, website and/or the ad, but specifics, I

14

saw, that you recall, that would have made you

14

15

determine that that advertisement was political?

A

15

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Asked and answered.

I'm not sure what the factors are. I mean, common

couldn't tell you.

16

BY MR. MUISE:

We've already been through that advertisement.

17

Q

I forwarded it to legal for their recommendation.

18

you're aware of, that would set out any factors to

19

determine whether an advertisement would cross the

16
17
18

A

19

BY MR. MUISE:

20

Q

The next email up is an email from Robert Hawkins to 20
you, correct?

21
22

A

23

Q

22

line and make political statements?

21

Yes.

Is there anything in any of the guidelines, that

He's forwarding to you the request to run the, the
request from the national coordinator for the United

24

25

Coalition of Reason's request to run an

Can you repeat the question.

A

No.

(The last question was read back.)

23

24

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Asked and answered.
A

25

23 (Pages 89 to 92)

American Freedom Defense Initiative v. SMART
Beth Gibbons
6/25/2013
Page 101
1

Q

But in terms of a gentlemen's club being an

Page 103
1

2

advertiser, is there anything in the guidelines that

2

3

would prohibit an advertisement of a gentlemen's

3

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY
STATE OF MICHIGAN

)

) SS
COUNTY OF LIVINGSTON )

club?

4

5

A

I don't know. I'd have to see the ad.

5

I, Carol Marie Hicks, Certified Shorthand Reporter,

6

Q

I understand you'd have to see the ad, but just on

6

a Notary Public in and for the above county and state, do

4

7

the guidelines itself, is there anything that would

7

hereby certify that the above deposition was taken before

8

prohibit a gentlemen's club from advertising on

8

me at the time and place hereinbefore set forth; that the

9

SMART?

9

witness was by me first duly sworn to testify to the

There's no list of prohibited, other than what's in

10

truth, and nothing but the truth, that the foregoing

the outline, in the ad.

11

questions and answers made by the witness were duly

10

A

11
12

Q

Since you've been working at SMART, have you heard 12

recorded by me stenographically and reduced to computer

13

any SMART employee ever refer to any of my clients

13

transcription; that this is a true, full and correct

14

as being Islamophobes?

14

transcript of my stenographic notes so taken; and that I

No.

15

am not related to, nor of counsel to either party nor

16

interested in the event of this cause.

15

A

MR. HILDEBRANDT: Asked and answered.

16
17

BY MR. MUISE:

18

Q

17

During any time that you've worked with SMART, have 18

19

you heard any SMART employee ever refer to my

19

_________________________________

20

clients' speech, or their speech activity, as

20

Carol Marie Hicks

21

Islamophobic or hate speech?

21

CSR 3345 Notary Public,

22

A

No.

22

23

Q

As you sit here today, is it your understanding that

23

24

my clients' leaving Islam ad would not be displayed

24

25

under SMART's advertising guidelines if it was

Livingston County, Michigan

25

My Commission expires: September 4, 2016

Page 102
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A

resubmitted?
No, it would not be displayed.
MR. MUISE: No further questions.
MR. HILDEBRANDT: I don't have any
questions.
(The deposition concluded at 11:25 a.m.)

26 (Pages 101 to 103)