Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Filing 65

DECLARATION of Randi W. Singer in Support re: 60 MOTION for Summary Judgment.. Document filed by MVL Rights, LLC, Marvel Characters, Inc., Marvel Entertainment, Inc., Marvel Worldwide, Inc., The Walt Disney Company. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1, # 2 Exhibit 2, # 3 Exhibit 3, # 4 Exhibit 4, # 5 Exhibit 5, # 6 Exhibit 6, # 7 Exhibit 7, # 8 Exhibit 8, # 9 Exhibit 9, # 10 Exhibit 10, # 11 Exhibit 11, # 12 Exhibit 12, # 13 Exhibit 13, # 14 Exhibit 14, # 15 Exhibit 15, # 16 Exhibit 16-1, # 17 Exhibit 16-2, # 18 Exhibit 16-3, # 19 Exhibit 16-4, # 20 Exhibit 17, # 21 Exhibit 18, # 22 Exhibit 19, # 23 Exhibit 20, # 24 Exhibit 21, # 25 Exhibit 22, # 26 Exhibit 23, # 27 Exhibit 24, # 28 Exhibit 25, # 29 Exhibit 26, # 30 Exhibit 27, # 31 Exhibit 28, # 32 Exhibit 29, # 33 Exhibit 30)(Quinn, James)

Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Doc. 65 Att. 3

EXHIBIT 3

Dockets.Justia.com

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK Civil Action No. 10-141 (CM) (KF)

MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS, LLC., Plaintiffs,

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vs.
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LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, Defendants.

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) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

VOLUME I
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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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ROY THOMAS
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October 26, 2010 10:06 a.m. Holiday Inn Express Orangeburg, South Carolina ANNIE O'HARA, CCR-B-2340, SC Notary

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK Case No. 10-141-CMKF

MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS, LLC, Plaintiffs, VS. LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, Defendants.

Volume II Videotape Deposition of: Roy Thomas Wednesday, October 27, 2010 Orangeburg, South Carolina

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Thomas editorial-type responsibilities that you -- you were doing during this time you were paid a salary? A. Q. Yes. And then you were paid on top of that a

per-page rate for freelance writing work that you did? A. Yes. Yes. That actually began at the

very beginning, because the day I met Stan on a Friday he gave me a story to dialogue, as we call it, over the weekend. freelance. And that was counted as

So I received money -- or earned money a

week or so later as a freelance writer before I freelanced, before I actually went on staff the next morning. Q. A. Okay. So they sort of -- they overlapped from

the very beginning. Q. Who did you report to when you were a

staff writer? A. The only real person I reported to

officially would have been Stan Lee, but as a matter of practical fact, Stan gave out many of his directives or communications through the production manager, Sol Brodski. So while he wasn't exactly
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Thomas technically my superior, he was a person that gave me a lot of Stan's, you know, marching orders or whatever and was very, very -- informal would be the polite way to describe operations in the 1960s. Q. Did there come a time that your title

changed from staff writer to something else? A. Well, I just stopped being a staff writer And we never

at that point, a month or two in.

talked much about titles, but I guess I was like the assistant editor or editorial assistant. never told that. I was I

That's what I assumed I was.

never had an official title until I was called associate editor. Q. A. When was that? Around the end of 1966 or beginning of '67

Stan told me and the new assistant editor, who was a friend of mine. He said: Well, we have got to have He

some titles around here, he told me one day. said:

I'm the editor, so I guess that makes you the

associate editor; and Gary, my friend, was the assistant editor. From that time on, about a year

and a half or so after I worked there, I was the associate editor until what? when I became editor-in-chief.
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Middle or late 1972,

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Thomas 11:13 a.m. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Mr. Thomas, can you describe for us when

you arrived in Marvel in the 1960s what the first step was in the process of creating a comic book issue? A. The first step was for the designated

writer to come up with a plot idea. Q. How did the designated writer become

designated? A. That was Stan Lee's decision. Of course,

it was often him designating himself, but then it became me or someone else. (Discussion off the record.) BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. What happens after the designated writer

comes up with a plot idea? A. The writer would either write out the plot We used those terms interchangeably or

or synopsis.

he might -- in some cases, but usually it was written -- might verbally -- one way or the other we would give it to the -- the pencil artist. We would

often call the person the artist, but it was really the pencil artist, who might or might not be the
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Thomas inker. Q. How did the pencil artist become

designated to do the particular issue? MR. TOBEROFF: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. A. Q. You can answer. He -- that was Stan Lee's decision. When in the process was the writer and the When in the Leading; lacks foundation.

artist for a particular issue selected? process? A. beginning.

Well, I guess I would say more at the I mean, right away -- when in the

process -- I mean, the writer -- either one of them might have been put on first, because the artist might be continuing, while it might be a new writer or visa versa. I'm not sure if I understood the

question exactly. Q. What would happen after the writer

provides either a plot or synopsis to the artist? A. story. Q. And what would the artist do after the The artist would go and draw or pencil the

artist drew or penciled the story? A. It would then be mailed or brought
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Thomas physically into the -- the office so Stan Lee could review it. Of course, he was the writer. He would

also be writing them. Q. And after Stan Lee reviewed the artwork,

what would happen next? A. Well, if there were no corrections, it

would then be written by the writer, which would either be Stan Lee or perhaps someone else. Usually, Stan at that stage, when I first arrived. Q. mean? A. Well, yes, what I really meant there is And when you say "written," what do you

the term that -- what we later came to use the verb "dialogue for," which means to write the dialogue, which includes, actually, the dialogue and the so-called captions. And while doing that to

indicate those -- where those captions and balloons come on the page, generally writing it on the original artwork -- not the copy, but indicating the shape of the balloons and the captions and writing a separate script. Q. And after the writer wrote the dialogue

and captions, what would happen next? A. Well, if it was Stan or his brother Larry
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Thomas Lieber at that stage, it would be sent to the inking the inker, we call it, the artist who applied the ink, who usually was not the same artist who penciled it; although, it was -- it could be but it usually was not. If it was a new writer like me,

Stan would go over the -- the scripts first for the first few months before it would be sent out. Q. And where would it go after Stan would

review the scripts? A. It then goes to a letterer. It would be I'm

sent out -- I'm sorry.

I said the inking art. I'm

sorry, it has to go to the letterer first. sorry. Q. A. My mistake. What does the letterer do?

The letterer was the person who would

letter the actual dialogue and captions as well as their shapes onto the page in ink. Q. What is the difference between a letterer

and the inker? A. The inker was the person who would apply

the ink to the drawing portion of the page, go over to and amend and add to what the penciller had -had drawn. Q. So it goes from the letterer to the inker?
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Thomas A. Yes. Sometimes, it would come back

through the office to be rerouted, but often it was just sent -- Stan, generally, did not review things between the stages of lettering and inking, so quite often the letterer was asked to just mail it directly on to the -- to the inker. Or, you know,

the inker might even some days come by and pick it up. There were many, many different little ways it

could work. Q. pencils? A. After the book is inked, the inker would What happens after the inker goes over the

either mail or bring it into the office, either turning it directly to Stan or to the production manager, depending on whether Stan wanted to see him or not. Q. What would happen to it when it got to

either Stan or the production manager? A. Stan would go over the story and proofread

it, asking for any changes he wanted on either the copy or even at that stage, even still on the art if he saw something that didn't quite work out. Q. A. At what point does the issue get colored? Well, at the time that the -- generally -TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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Thomas pretty much as soon as the inking would come into the office or very soon thereafter, it would be Photostatted and reduced to a smaller size, about the size of a comic page or so. And those Photostats would be given to what we call the colorist who is the person who actually applied water colors to that to indicate what the colors should be and also would write in notations to clarify so that the colors would be matched in the final book by the people who actually did the physical coloring that got reproduced. These were actually called color guides, what the colorist did. Q. all paid? A. Q. A. Yes. How were they paid, do you know? By the page, according to whatever rate, Were the letterer, inker, and the colorist

you know, varying rates they -- they had. Q. At what point in the process does the

cover page -- did the cover page for the issue get put together? A. Well, it could be at any time. Usually,

it was after the story had been at least penciled.
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Thomas from time to time new villains or new supporting characters. Q. Did artists ever come up with ideas for

new characters? A. Q. Yes. Was it your understanding that part of the

writer's assignment was to introduce new characters into a comic book series? A. Q. Yes. Was it your understanding that part of the

artist's assignment was to introduce new characters into a comic book series? A. Yes, anything that would be -- would

further the plot. Q. draw? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading; vague. The artists were given a How -- how did the artists know what to

story line, which might be anything from a few sentences to in quite a few cases two or three pages or so of a -- a sort of a --a general plot line. It wasn't the exact dialogue, you know, It was more a short story And that would tell the
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in movie script form. synopsis of the scene.

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Thomas artist what the story was. to turn that into pictures. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. When you arrived at Marvel in 1965, did Then it was his job

you ever see Stan interacting with other writers or artists? A. Q. Yes. Did you ever see Stan give a plot or

describe a plot to an artist? A. Q. Yes. To your knowledge did artists start

working on pages before discussing the plot or synopsis with Stan or the writer? A. Q. No. Who decided which writer and artist would

work on a particular comic book or issue? A. Q. Stan. Were the assignments to writers given

orally or in writing? A. Q. Generally, orally. Are you aware of how assignments were

given to artists? A. Well, orally. Sometimes Stan would be Just as often or

talking to the person directly.
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Thomas more often Sol Brodski as the production manager would later report -- would call that person up and tell them. But, of course, they were always

understood to be speaking for Stan, and they were. Q. And just so we're clear, I just want you

understand, when I'm saying "assignment," I mean the assignment to do a particular issue. A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh. Is that how you understood my question? Yes. Are you aware of any instance where a

writer began to work on a new series or title or comic book without first being assigned to it by Stan? A. People might come up with an idea for a Not -- not in the -- this

new series at some stage.

-- this wouldn't have happened before at least about, you know, the early '70s or so. Once or

twice -- generally speaking, the ideas were generated, you know, by someone in the office, by Stan or sometimes later by me; but we were open to somebody else coming in, but it wasn't anything we were going around looking for or asking for. Q. In the 1960s -- from 1965 to 1970, are you
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aware of any instance where a writer came in and actually started working on a new series before Stan said: A. Q. Go ahead and write the series? No. Are you aware of any instances where an

artist began work on a comic book issue before getting the assignment to do the issue from Stan? A. Q. No. Did writers or artists have any authority

to assign themselves to do an issue without prior approval from Stan or Sol? A. Q. No. No.

Are you aware of any instances where an

artist submitted artwork for an issue that he hadn't been assigned to, like on spec? A. Only new artists who were turning in

samples, not an established artist, not one that was already -- was already doing work for Marvel. Q. To your knowledge during this time period,

1965 to 1972, did Marvel ever buy any work created on spec by freelance artists? A. Q. No. No.

Were writers or artists ever during this

time period taken off a comic book issue for an
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Thomas ongoing series? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Whose decision was that? Stan. And who had the final say on which comic

book stories each artist would be assigned to? A. Stan Lee. He could have been technically

overruled by publisher Martin Goodman, if Martin Goodman found there was some artist or someone he really didn't like or he did like or something. as a practical matter, Goodman did not concern himself with anything like that, except at sometimes there were certain artists whose covers he didn't think were clear enough. He didn't like if Stan assigned that person to do a cover. Occasionally, they had a And, of course, But as a matter of But

little problem about that. Goodman's word was final.

practical fact, 90-plus percent of the time it was Stan's decision. Q. Was there a set production schedule for

the Marvel comic titles back in the 1960s to early '70s? A. Yes.
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Thomas Q. When the writers were given an assignment,

were they also given a deadline to submit the -let's start with the artist. When the artists were

given an assignment, were they given a deadline by which they had to submit the finished pencils? A. Yes. Either the exact date or as fast as But, yes. They were doing a

you could do it. deadline. Q.

And then when the artwork went to the

writers, were the writers also given deadlines by which they had to submit the scripts? A. Q. A. Q. A. manager. Q. A. That was Sol Brodski? Yes. Through '70 or so when he quit. Yes. The dialogue? Yes. Who set those deadlines? They were worked out by the production

After that by John Berpoorten. Q. And who ultimately decided which books

were published and which books weren't published? A. Well, during that period and through about

sometime in about '72, it was generally Martin
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Thomas Goodman. For a short period of time in the early

'70s it was his son Chip Goodman who had -- who was -- had become publisher. Q. Was the assignment process the same for

freelancers as it was for staff writers and artists? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Vague. I was going ask, just to --

if you could clarify that, just I make sure -I'm sure I understand it. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Did staff artists get their assignments

the same way, from Stan or from Sol Brodski? A. Oh, yes. MR. TOBEROFF: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. How did staff artists get their Compound.

assignments? A. They were told either directly by Stan or

quite often by Sol Brodski in his capacity to do them. Of course, if Sol assigned an artist, it was

because Stan wanted that artist assigned to it. They would confer on it and say: available. Things of this sort. Sol was the practical one who had to tell
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Is this artist

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Thomas Stan that, you know, this artist can't do it or can do it, or it will cause problems if this artist was taken off something else to do this and that. worked very closely on that. Q. So after the artist submitted pencil They

drawings, you testified that Stan would review the artist's work; correct? A. Q. Yes. Was that the case for all of the Marvel

artists, that Stan reviewed their work? A. Yes. He paid a little less attention,

perhaps, to some of the, you know, lesser books -he probably went -- you know, like the westerns and so forth that were kind of dying out. reviewed everything. Q. Were artists ever asked to make changes to But he

the materials they submitted for publication? A. Q. A. Yes. Who did those requests come from? They either came directly from Stan or,

again, were delivered by Sol Brodski on Stan's behalf, or even I might eventually be asked to tell someone. Stan. But, again, it was always on behalf of

In the early days I wouldn't have made any
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Thomas independent judgments of that sort. Q. Did Stan or any of the other Marvel

editors, including yourself, ever revise the work that had been submitted by an artist? A. Q. Yes. What kind of direction or feedback did

artists typically get from either Stan or another editor in the 1960s to early '70s? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Lacks foundation; leading. He would give them an

impression of whether he generally liked the work or not and things he particularly liked and perhaps things he didn't like or that they should watch it and perhaps do it a little differently in the future. That's something he

might let go this time, but he would like them to get more excitement or do this or do that. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. artists? A. Q. Yes. Were changes ever made by Stan or any of Did you hear Stan communicating this to

the other Marvel editors or production people without first consulting the artist?
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Thomas A. Q. Yes. And you testified that when the writer

brought in the completed assignment, the dialogue, that if it was a writer other than Stan, that Stan would review that work product; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Were writers ever asked to make changes to

their work? A. Yes. Sometimes the writer was asked to

make the changes, or sometimes Stan would just make it himself, make the change himself. Q. And when Stan made the changes himself,

did he consult with the writer? A. No. He might tell us what he was going to

do or what he had already done, but it was a case of telling us, not consulting and asking for our extra input or anything like that. He would let us know

and he would try to tell us why he did it. Q. When you were either assistant editor or

associate editor or editor-in-chief -- in any of those editorial capacities -- did you have authority to make changes to materials that were submitted for publication if you believed that changes were appropriate?
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Thomas A. Yes. In the, you know, very earliest days

I wouldn't have done that; but gradually Stan let me know as time went on that, you know, that I should -- that I could take, you know, some of this, you know, burden off. And so it was a practical fact if

I was sure that it was something that Stan would want or at least I thought that Stan would want -but I would tend for much of that time, most of that time, until I was at least editor-in-chief to try to check it with him if I could. Q. Did -- did Stan ever -- if Stan decided. Was it your understanding that Marvel had the ability to use characters that were introduced into its story lines by a writer and artist into a different comic book story line being drawn and written by a different artist and writer? MR. TOBEROFF: leading; vague. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. You can answer. MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Assumes facts. If by the ability you mean Objection; compound;

the right to do it, and the -- yes. BY MS. KLEINICK:
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Thomas Q. Was that done -- was that done in the '60s

after you got there, where characters that had been introduced into one comic book line title were used in other comic book lines or titles? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. You testified that the writer was Same objections. Yes.

responsible for writing the dialogue in the comic books; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Did artists ever suggest or submit

dialogue with their drawings? A. Yes, the artists wrote what we call margin

notes in pencil that was supposed to sort of tell Stan what they were thinking when they did the story, since they were working on his story. some of those notes, besides saying: And in

This blows up

or something, sometimes the artist wrote either what we call direct or indirect, you know, quotations. Either suggested exact dialogue or approximate dialogue. Q. Who had the final say on what the dialogue

would be for the story?
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Thomas A. Q. Well, the writer, subject to Stan. If a character that one -- that a writer

and artist first introduced into a Marvel story line was going to be used in a different story line that was being written by a different writer and artist, did anyone have to go back and consult with the original writer and artist to use that character? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Incomplete hypothetical. The person who made all You didn't have to As a matter of,

those decisions was Stan.

consult with the other person.

you know, courtesy or information, you might do it; but it was not required. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Who decided which artist would do a cover

for a particular issue? A. Q. Stan. Were the covers reviewed by anyone before

they were published? A. Well, they were reviewed by Stan, because

after they were drawn he wrote the cover copy and then looked it over again after -- after the cover was inked, either by the same artist or a different one.
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Thomas Then it was -- then they were reviewed -they were all reviewed eventually by Martin Goodman as publisher, and very briefly as I said by Chip Goodman, and, of course, from '72 to '74 by Stan himself as publisher. Q. From the time you arrived at Marvel from

'65 to '72 were changes ever made to the covers that had been submitted by artists? A. Q. A. Yes. Who would make those changes? That depended upon circumstances. If the

original artist was there or if there was time to either have him come in or to mail it or send it to him, he might be asked to make the changes. Sometimes, either if it was a minor change or if the deadline needs were great or for any other reason, Stan -- especially in consulting with the production manager who had the responsibility with the schedule -- would decide, you know, that it should be done by a staff artist or perhaps a visiting freelance artist who just came in. It really depended on what

the change was and what the time was. Q. And if an artist's work -- if an artist's

work required that changes be made, would the artist
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Thomas have been paid for the original work that they submitted? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: been paid. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Between '65 and at least '72 you were paid Incomplete hypothetical. Yes, the artist would have

both a salary and for your editorial work and a page rate for your the freelance writing that you did? A. Q. A. about. Right. How often were you paid? That's something I am a little vague I know that the salary checks were more

frequent than the freelance checks, but I'm -- they both came on Fridays but not always at the same time. I'm just not certain if we were paid -- I --

I feel we were probably paid salary checks every week, and maybe the freelance was every other week; but I'm not 100 percent sure of that. of fades together after a while. Q. Who decided what the page rates for It all kind

freelance writers and artists would be? A. Well, Stan had the individual

responsibility; but, of course, it was subject to
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Thomas Q. Do you recall whether or not there was any

legend or stamp on the checks that were issued by Marvel to you for your freelance work at the time you first started working for Marvel in the 1960s? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading; assumes facts. Yes, there were stamped

legends or paragraphs on the back of the checks. I cannot remember offhand if they were on both the freelance and the staff checks. I know they

were on the freelance checks, but I don't recall whether they were on the others. Because I

never -- you know, after a while you just stop paying attention to those. check and that was it. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Do you recall whether the first freelance You just sign the

checks you received from Marvel had a legend or stamp on the check? A. I know that all the ones I remember did.

And I remember back pretty early, but, you know, I couldn't swear the very first one did; but it, you know -- you know, it seemed like it was an ongoing policy. Q. Do you recall what the legend said?
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Thomas A. Only in a general sense. I, of course,

read it; but, basically, it was saying that the company had -- owned all the -- the copyrights and all of the rights to the material for which I was being -- material or work for which I was being paid. Q. And was that the same type of language

that you recall seeing on all of the checks that had the legends on them? A. Whenever I read it -- the exact wording

may have changed slightly from time, but it was always, you know, words to that effect. Q. Do you know whether the checks that were

given to other writers or freelance artists also had a legend or a stamp on them? A. I know that they did. I didn't see

everyone's checks, of course; but -- and it was my understanding that they did. Q. Did you ever discuss the check legends

with any of the other freelance writers or artists? A. I don't recall specific, you know, But I know that from time

conversations in detail.

to time we would discuss them, because at first I was a little puzzled seeing all this on here.
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You

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Thomas have been about two weeks or so. Q. You testified that there was a script that

you wrote, I think it was on an Ironman script that Stan didn't like and revised significantly? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that right? Yes. He rewrote about 50 percent of it.

Were you paid for the pages that you

submitted for that script? A. That was one of the ones that I was doing

as part of the staff writer thing during those first few weeks, so I wasn't paid separately. It was

counted as part of my staff writer salary, so I was paid in that sense, for that and the Dr. Strange. But I think -- I think those. I know Ironman was

and I think Dr. Strange's were all part of the staff's salary. Q. Were there any materials that you

submitted in your freelance capacity that were modified by Stan? A. Q. submitted? A. Yes.
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Yes. Were you still paid for the pages that you

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Thomas MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading. I don't really know anything

about that, because I wasn't involved with it. MS. KLEINICK: I'm about to get into a new

area so maybe we can take a five-minute break. We have been going for about an hour. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of

video number one of the deposition of Roy Thomas. We are off the record at 12:06 p.m. This is a continuation This is

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

of the deposition of Mr. Roy Thomas. video number two. p.m. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q.

We're on the record at 12:18

Mr. Thomas, when you first joined Marvel

in the 1960s, was it your understanding that the copyrights to the materials you submitted for publication would be owned by Marvel? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading; assumes facts. Yes, I assumed Marvel owned

the copyrights to whatever I wrote for them. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Was it your understanding throughout the

1960s and 1970s that the -- that Marvel would own
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Thomas the copyright to the materials that you submitted for publication? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. And is that true of the freelance Same objection. Yes, it was.

materials that you submitted for publication and the materials that you submitted while in your editorial capacity? A. Q. Yes. Did Marvel have a policy to your knowledge

in the 1960s and early '70s that it owned the rights to all of the materials that were submitted for publication by either employees or freelancers? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Vague. Yes, I understood it and

considered that -- considered it's always owning the copyrights, yes. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Was that policy generally understood in

the comics industry in the 1960s and early '70s? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Calls for speculation. To the best of my knowledge,

based on people I talked to over the years, it
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Thomas was generally known. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. When you say "based on people I talked to Was the policy

over the years," my question was:

generally understood in the '60s and early '70s? MR. TOBEROFF: vague. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. A. To your knowledge? The artists and writers in the field -Calls for speculation;

those were the people I was talking about that I -when I spoke to -- they knew that that is what the -- what the company considered -- that it was considered that -- and it was generally accepted with some -- you know, some unhappiness about -about the facts, perhaps; but it was accepted that that was the conditions under which they were working. Q. Are you aware that there were certain

creator-owned comic lines established in the early 1970s? A. Well, I'm aware of the fact that the

underground comics, for example, the -- which were done by the youth counterculture and so forth, that
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Thomas A. I was not aware of any work he was doing

for any other publisher or whatever, except that from time to time someone who was doing an article -- a magazine or someone -- something that was doing an article on Marvel might commission him to do a drawing, like Esquire magazine did at one stage, and perhaps some newspaper might have asked him to do it separately, but using Marvel characters. I'm not

aware of anything he was doing that wasn't at least Marvel related. Q. In the 1960s to early '70s who decided

which books or series Kirby would work on? A. Stan Lee. MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to 1960s again. 1960s means --

We have a standing objection. MS. KLEINICK:

It's a standing objection.

MR. TOBEROFF: -- after July 1965; is that correct? THE WITNESS: MS. KLEINICK: objection. MR. TOBEROFF: I understand, but I don't I always meant it to be. You made the standing

want the record to look like he's talking about the early 1960s when he wasn't there.
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Thomas MS. KLEINICK: THE WITNESS: You made your objection. I understand it as being

from '65 on, because I wouldn't know anything about an earlier period. paying as much attention. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Did Kirby receive assignments for I wouldn't have been

particular issues or titles? A. Q. Yes. Who did he get those assignments from? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Stan. Asked and answered. He got the assignment from

It might come through Sol Brodski or It was an

someone, but it was always from Stan. ongoing, you know, kind of thing. be renewed every month. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q.

But it had to

Are you aware of any instance where Jack

Kirby submitted artwork for an issue for a series that Stan or Sol had not already assigned him to? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. And I think you testified that artists
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Leading. No.

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Thomas were -- artists submitted their finished pencils to either Stan or to Sol for approval; is that right? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Misstates testimony. Yes. He turned it in

directly to Stan or Sol Brodski, with the idea that Sol would show them to Stan. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Did -- did artwork that was submitted by

freelance artists from the time that you got there in 1965 through the early '70s need to be approved by Stan or Sol before it got published? A. Yes, it had to be approved by Stan. Sol

didn't really have the authority to approve anything unless he felt that Stan -- he was always acting on Stan's authority, but he wouldn't have approved anything on his own authority. Q. Was Jack Kirby required during this time

period to submit his artwork to Stan for approval? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading. Yes. It was turned in to

Stan for -- for him as editor, to look at, to do whatever he wanted to do. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Did Stan or any other editor ever make
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Thomas changes to the artwork that Kirby submitted for publication? A. Q. Yes. Did Stan or any other editor ever ask

Kirby to redo anything that he had submitted to your knowledge? MR. TOBEROFF: THE WITNESS: Leading. Yes. They did. It was not

a usual occurrence, but from time to time something had to be redone. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. In the instances where changes -- where

Stan determined that changes should be made to the artwork that Kirby had submitted for publication by Marvel, would Stan typically have Kirby make the changes or -A. Q. changes? MR. TOBEROFF: compound. THE WITNESS: He would -- he might have Assumes facts; leading; Are you finished with the question? Would Stan typically have Kirby make the

Jack make the change, if Jack were there and available or if there was plenty of time.
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He

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Thomas might also -- especially, if it was a fairly simple change or something that he felt could easily be handled. At the office he might have

one of the staff artists or production people make it -- whether it be Sol Brodski, the production manager, John Romita, who was an artist on staff, or one of the other staff artists. BY MS. KLEINICK: Q. Do you recall specific instances where

artwork that had been submitted by -- withdrawn. Do you recall specific instances where Stan determined that artwork that Jack had submitted for publication should be changed? A. I don't recall early instances. I'd have

to go over -- looking over covers and maybe something would occur to me. I do know that in the

late 1969 or '70 period there were a couple of instances where Jack's artwork for one Thor issue and one Fantastic Four issue that was turned in just as he left the company were altered considerably. Q. Are you aware of any instances where Stan

either made changes or directed that changes be made to any of the covers that Kirby submitted for
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Thomas publications? A. time. I know changes were made from time to I would have to go over a lot of covers to I know that

begin to remember specific instances. changes would be made.

It might just be a hand or a Or it might

background detail, something like that. be a little more substantial.

I know they were done

but I don't recall the specific instances. But that was done as a standard on any artist's work, if Stan decided there was a change to be made, he just had it made. MS. KLEINICK: I think probably now is a It's 1:15,

good time to take a break for lunch. if that works for everybody. THE WITNESS: It works for me.

I don't You work out

need over 15 minutes or something. whatever you want between you. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 1:15 p.m. VIDEOGRAPHER: BY MS. KLEINICK: Q.

Off the record at

On the record at 2:12 p.m.

Mr. Thomas, when you started working for

Marvel in 1965 through 1972, did you see the -- any of the finished artwork -- finished pencils that
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Thomas Jack Kirby submitted on any of the stories that he was working on? A. Q. On many of them. Do you ever recall seeing any notes or

suggested dialogue that Mr. Kirby included on the artwork pages he turned in? A. Yes. Pretty invariably, some sort of

notes -- whether some of it suggested dialogue, some of it was other comments or plot things. Q. And do you know on the issues where Stan

was the writer whether he -- what he would do with the notes and dialogue that Kirby put in the margins? A. He would utilize them to make sure that he

understood fully what -- what was going on based on Jack's expansion of the plot. And then he would --

as far as the dialogue, he would utilize little snippets of it, or he would make up his own, as far as I could tell when I was examining it and when I was proofreading and marks were often still there. He used very little of the exact wording. Q. I would like to mark as Thomas Exhibit --

I guess we are up to 15 -- a document bearing production number Marvel 15988 through 16125.
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Thomas the beginning; whether that was verbal -- or as it was in so many cases -- written. That kind of was part of the writing, and it's part of the payment. Q. What is the -- have you ever heard

of the term Marvel Method? A. Q. Yes. What is -- when you came to Marvel

in July of 1965, was the Marvel Method in use at that time? MS. KLEINICK: A. Q. A. Yes. What is the Marvel Method? The Marvel Method -- sometimes also Objection.

called the Stan Lee Method -- but it didn't totally originated with him, but mostly arose in the -- I'm not really quite sure -- but it was in place by the time I got there. Because Stan became too busy to write full scripts; and Larry Lieber, who had been writing the scripts from his plots, you know, was either too busy or was doing his westerns and things and somewhat withdrawing from doing the superheros.
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Thomas Stan was -- became -- would come up with the idea for the plots, I guess, adapting from the way he had originally done plots that Larry would turn in the scripts. And he simply would give those plots to the artists, who would then draw the story, break them down into pictures, expanding them, whatever needed to be done to break them down into pictures. They would then turn them in, and he would then add the -- he would dialogue it, which means the dialogue and captions -- he would add it later -- instead of writing what we call script in advance, which is the more usual method of writing comic books beforehand. Q. Are you aware that Stan Lee has been

interviewed numerous times in which he has described the Marvel Method? A. that. Q. Are you aware that Stan Lee, in I'm sure he has, yes. I'm aware of

interviews, has stated that in 1960s, under the Marvel Method, that artists were expected to plot stories?
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Thomas MS. KLEINICK: facts not in evidence. A. I haven't any knowledge of that. It would have, you know, surprised me; but if he did, he probably misspoke. Q. Is it your understanding that at Objection; states

Marvel, artists were -- part of their duties were to plot the stories through the -- through their artwork and through notes in the margins and suggested dialogue? MS. KLEINICK: A. Objection.

We didn't use that, you know, think

about that much or use that term then. But as I look back on it, and over the years and analyze it, I realize they were -- I would say co-plotting the stories. would not say plotting. When you are given a story idea, even if it is a few sentence, quite often, and certainly if it was more, as it was in many cases, you're certainly not plotting the story, you were co-plotting. Q. Starting at the time you started -I

well, whether or not they were co-plotting or
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Thomas plotting -- is it correct that artists were, at the time you got to Marvel in 1965, artists were expected to plot stories? MS. KLEINICK: A. stories. Q. A. Okay. As they -- to do whatever is Objection.

They were expected to co-plot the

necessary to tell the story; that involved adding elements for the plot. So, I call it co-plotting. Q. And in your testimony yesterday, you

spoke about artists being supplied with a story either in a synopsis or verbally. Which was more common during the time you were working at Marvel? A. Lee? Or what I know of, say, myself and other writers who came along? Q. I'm talking about Marvel as a whole. MS. KLEINICK: A. Objection. Do you mean what I know of Stan

Well, it would depend on the time. And Marvel, as a whole, when I came
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Thomas work at Marvel; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Do you know for certain, whether in

19 -- mid-1965, when you started work at Marvel, that there was legend on the back of your checks? A. I, you know, I don't have a picture

in my mind of the very first check, but I do know that -- from probably the beginning, and certainly about the beginning; so, therefore, I can only, you know, figure it must have been on all of them that the legend was there. I just probably, you know, I don't remember this first check as such; but every check I remember in those day, had that legend. Q. But do you have a recollection of

checks in 1965 having that legend? MS. KLEINICK: A. Yes. THE WITNESS: A. Q. that? A. Yes.
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Objection.

I'm sorry.

Yes. You have a specific recollection of