Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Filing 65

DECLARATION of Randi W. Singer in Support re: 60 MOTION for Summary Judgment.. Document filed by MVL Rights, LLC, Marvel Characters, Inc., Marvel Entertainment, Inc., Marvel Worldwide, Inc., The Walt Disney Company. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1, # 2 Exhibit 2, # 3 Exhibit 3, # 4 Exhibit 4, # 5 Exhibit 5, # 6 Exhibit 6, # 7 Exhibit 7, # 8 Exhibit 8, # 9 Exhibit 9, # 10 Exhibit 10, # 11 Exhibit 11, # 12 Exhibit 12, # 13 Exhibit 13, # 14 Exhibit 14, # 15 Exhibit 15, # 16 Exhibit 16-1, # 17 Exhibit 16-2, # 18 Exhibit 16-3, # 19 Exhibit 16-4, # 20 Exhibit 17, # 21 Exhibit 18, # 22 Exhibit 19, # 23 Exhibit 20, # 24 Exhibit 21, # 25 Exhibit 22, # 26 Exhibit 23, # 27 Exhibit 24, # 28 Exhibit 25, # 29 Exhibit 26, # 30 Exhibit 27, # 31 Exhibit 28, # 32 Exhibit 29, # 33 Exhibit 30)(Quinn, James)

Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al

Doc. 65 Att. 4

EXHIBIT 4

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., ) MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., ) and MVL RIGHTS, LLC, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) Case No. vs. ) 10-141-CMKF ) LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. ) KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY, and ) SUSAN N. KIRBY, ) ) Defendants. ) ----------------------------) **REVISED** PARTIALLY CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER (Pages 66 through 70) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF LAWRENCE LIEBER New York, New York January 7, 2011

Reported by: KATHY S. KLEPFER, RMR, RPR, CRR, CLR JOB NO. 35338
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L. Lieber remember. I -- I know I was doing, sometime back, I did The Hulk newspaper strip. That

started out with my brother writing it and me drawing it, penciling it, and it didn't do well and he finally said I could write it, and I wrote that for a while. But it didn't last too

long and but I don't remember when these things were. Q. Okay. We're going to focus today on

the period from 1958 to 1965, so that's fine. A. Q. Uh-huh. I think you mentioned that you started

working at Marvel in about 1958? A. I could tell you, yeah, it was -- it This I happen

was -- well, I remember the date. to remember. Q. A. Q. Marvel? A. living.

June, the end of June.

Okay. About then, yeah. '58.

And how did you come to work for

Stan offered me -- I had to earn a I had been living with relatives and I

was going to the Art Students League studying
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L. Lieber Journey Into Mystery. Q. A. Okay. They had about three stories in the

magazine, drawn by different people. Q. And when you say you were writing the I mean, What

stories, what exactly were you writing? what would you -- what would you turn in? was the form it came in? A. Q. A. Q. Oh, I would turn in the script. Okay. A script. Okay.

Can you tell me what did a

script look like? A. What did a script look like? Well, if

it was seven-page story, I would have each page what was on the page. Usually, there were six

panels on a page and I would describe the action in the first -- in the first panel. I would

have to -- I would have to describe the action to the artist in the first panel, and then if there was a caption like so and so entered, you know, here or a monster was coming to town or something, I would have to write the caption and then I would have to write the dialogue.
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L. Lieber I also, you know, I also, in doing this, I had to use the sense of the visual. Comics are different from novels in that it's a visual medium, so you have to be -- know that. And it's also sequential, so the artist has to have a sense of sequence and story. But both

are doing them, you know, about playing a part. But a page of script would have panel one, panel two, panel three. have six panels. Didn't have to

Sometimes if there was a lot

of action, you might play up that panel and only have five, let's say, one panel across. Q. Okay. So it wouldn't look like -- it

wouldn't just be a short story, it would be -it would describe the -A. No. No. Q. And where would -- how would you get How would you know what Oh, no. It would be panel by panel.

the idea for the story? to write about? A.

Well, my brother made up the plot and

gave me a synopsis. Q. A. And your brother is? Stan Lee. I'm sorry.
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L. Lieber Q. And did all of the ideas for stories

come from Stan Lee or was there any other way you would get ideas? A. Q. No, they all came from Stan Lee. Did you ever work on -- did you ever

get artwork that you would then write the dialogue for, or did you always write the script first? A. I always wrote the script first,

except later on, I -Q. We don't have to worry about -- I'm

focusing you, I'm sorry, I'm focusing you on the period 1958 to 1965. A. I would think during that period I

always did, but there was a time -- but I don't know when it was, that's why I started to say that -- when I once or twice did it differently. But I always wrote a script here. Q. A. Q. Okay. I always wrote the script. Who came up with the ideas for the

characters that would be in the story? A. Stan. Well, wait a minute. You say

the characters?
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L. Lieber Q. A. sure. Q. Who was responsible for giving you the Yes. Stan. Yes. Yes. Stan, yes. Yes,

assignment to write a particular script or a particular -A. Q. Stan. When he would give you an assignment,

did you have a deadline or something that you had to get it back by a certain time? A. I remember -- well, I knew I had to do

it fast, and the only thing I remember a little more vividly is with I think it was Jack Kirby where he would say Jack needs work and he was concerned about getting it to him. He said,

"Write this," and, you know, sometimes I would write, and if it was weekend, I wouldn't wait until Monday to bring it into the office to give it to Stan, but I remember going over to the West Side, the main post office at night and mailing it. And I was learning to write in the early years so I wasn't too fast, and Jack was very fast and a wonderful, wonderful artist.
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So

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L. Lieber I used to think, gee, well, you know, he draws faster than I can write, but I -- I wrote and mailed it to him. Q. When you say you were learning to

write, what do you mean by that? A. Well, when I started, as I said, Stan

said to me, you know, I said I'm not a writer. When he's giving me this, I never thought of writing. He said, and I repeat, he said, "I

read your letters and I can teach you what you need." So he did. For the first year or two, He would go over my After a while, I

you know, I was learning.

work and, you know, do things.

did better and I -- and I enjoyed it. Q. Did he ever make changes to your

stories or the scripts you would turn in? A. In those days, yes. Changes in not in

the basic story or anything, because I knew how to tell a story as well as anybody, I think, in terms of sequentially and what to draw, what to tell the artist. That was one area because I'm

wanting to be an artist myself, and I thought I had a very good sense of the drama and what to put down, what to draw.
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L. Lieber But writing was a little different. Stan had his own way of writing and his own -using as few words as possible, making them count, and he -- he was a good editor. learned from him. So I

I learned well enough that I

was able to give a course some years later for him. Q. You mentioned that Stan would give you How? How would he

the synopsis or the plot. give that to you? A.

Would he --

As far as I remember, it was -- you He would give it written to me.

mean written. Q.

And then after you did the assignment Then you would

and you -- what would happen? bring it to the office? A.

I would grow to the office with it.

Yeah, I would bring it to the office. Q. A. And what would happen next? He would go over it and, as I said, if

it were in the early years, he might correct or change a line or two. But he always used it.

He, he -- I never had to, you know, go home and do it again. me. He was very easy, he was showing

He said, "Oh, you could have said this.
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L. Lieber You could have done that," and he'd make some little corrections. fewer to make. Q. Do you know what would happen to the And as time went on, he had

script after Stan went over it and made whatever changes? A. Yeah. It would be sent to the artist,

I would guess. Q. A. Okay. Whether it was, you know, the various

artists, yeah. Q. Did you ever -- did you have any

contact with the story after you turned it in and made whatever changes? A. Q. No. Did you ever have discussions with

artists about the stories or the scripts? A. Q. No. You mentioned Jack Kirby. Did you

ever have any interactions with Jack Kirby when he was drawing scripts that you had done? MR. TOBEROFF: A. Q. What's that? Let me take a step back then.
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L. Lieber A. Q. Yes. Do you know the story behind the

creation of Thor? A. Q. for Thor? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. Did you ever work on the comic Thor? Yes. What was your involvement? I got the synopsis, the plot from No. Do you know who came up with the idea

Stan, and I wrote the first script of Thor. That was it. Q. And when you say "the script," that's

what we were talking about before that told panel by panel? A. yes. Q. Did you see any artwork on Thor before Panel by panel and description of it,

you wrote the script? A. know. Q. Do you know who, after you turned in I don't recall seeing any. I don't

the script, do you know who the artist was that
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L. Lieber drew Thor? A. Q. I believe it was Jack Kirby. Did you have any conversations or any

interactions with Jack Kirby about the Thor book? A. Q. in Thor? A. Q. A. up. Yes. What did you come up with? The civilian name of Don Blake I made I made No, not that I recall. Did you come up with any of the names

And I also came up with his hammer.

that, which people know about. created that. Q. hammer? A.

My Uru hammer, I

And where did you get the name Uru

I just made it up, as far as I know. I used to -- Stan liked

I might have read it.

the way I made up names, civilian names, and I used to, from my years of doing these, what do you call it, these fantasy books, monster books, and I used to look at the back of dictionary, Miriam Webster had biographical names and geographical, so I would look in towns and if I
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L. Lieber liked the town, I might put it. of fun and he liked what I did. Now, I don't know if I found "Uru" someplace or I just made it up or whatever. know I made it short because I felt that Thor might be around a while and I was always worrying about the letterer or somebody. I was I And it was kind

worrying about somebody else's feeling, and I figured, well, if I make it U-R-U, there's not that much to letter. And since nobody knows the So

name of it, I'll make it a short name. that's why I did that.

And Don Blake I just thought sounded like a doctor and, you know, to fit the personality. I tried to get names that fit

the -- the person. Q. hero name? A. Not me. I don't know. Stan, I guess. Who came up with the name Thor, the

But I don't -- yeah, yeah, Stan. Q. And just to follow up on something you

said, you mentioned a letterer, what was the job of the letterer? A. Well, when the -- when the -- I give a
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L. Lieber and I made it up." He looked a little surprised

and walked away, and then I stopped writing it and he would -- I don't know if he was writing it or somebody else, but they gave it another name, which I believe was the authentic name from Bulfinch's Mythology. Q. So ...

Was it the usual practice that you

would write a book for a few issues and then you would move on to something else? A. remember. It seems that way. You know, I don't

I -- I've been looking at the books I -- I

and it seems with a few of them I did.

wrote a few books, the first issue or the first couple issues, yes. I don't, yeah, I don't know

how it came about that way and why I moved on. I don't recall. Q. Who would make the decision about who

was going to write the scripts for a book? A. editor. Q. Iron Man? A. Q. Yes. And what was your involvement with
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It would be Stan, I'm sure, as the

Are you familiar with a comic called

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L. Lieber Iron Man? A. also. Q. And who asked you to write the first I wrote the first script for Iron Man

script for Iron Man? A. Q. Stan. Stan Lee. And what -- what did he

Stan Lee.

provide you with or what did he ask you to do? MR. TOBEROFF: A. Q. can -MR. TOBEROFF: That's okay. I'm just I'm sorry, I -If you understand the question, you Assumes facts.

objecting for the record. THE WITNESS: MS. SINGER: A. Q. Oh, okay. Lawyer stuff.

What was the question, if I may? Fair enough. How, how did you come to

write the first script for Iron Man? A. He made up a character and he And he

wanted -- and he asked me to write it.

told me the plot, you know, somehow I got synopsis, and I -- and I wrote it. made up the civilian name.
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And again, I

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L. Lieber Q. A. And the "he" there is Stan Lee? Thank me for Anthony Stark. I'm sorry, what? Q. Lee? A. Q. Stark? A. Q. name? A. I don't know, but I guess I -- I had Again, either I just made Yes. And where did you come up with that Yes, Stan Lee. So you came up with the name Anthony I'm sorry, the "he" in that was Stan

been writing so many.

it up or I felt it was a name that would fit a guy who was very, very rich and a lady -- you know, I wanted -- I thought it sounded distinguished and wealthy or something. Stark. Q. I agree. I like it. Anthony

After you wrote the first -- strike that. I'm sorry. And the script that you wrote

for Iron Man, was that a full script with the panel breakdown? A. Yes. Yes.
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L. Lieber Q. Okay. After you finished writing the What

first script for Iron Man, what happened? did you do next with the script? A.

I sent it to the artist who -- yeah.

Or else I -- I either brought it to the office and handed it to Stan, who must have sent it, or else I sent it. Q. A. would say. Q. Do you know who the artist was who Okay. Probably I brought it to the office, I I don't know.

drew the first Iron Man? A. You know, I don't remember. It was

either Jack or Don Heck, I think.

Other people

know, and if I had the book, I could tell you. I think it might have been Don Heck, but I'm not sure. Q. Did you ever look at the penciled

drawings after or look at the inked drawings or look at the final book after you had turned in the script? A. Did you look at a book again?

No, I would say I don't recall looking I don't recall anything until the

at the book.

book came out and I got a copy of it and saw.
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L. Lieber There would be no reason for me to look at it. Q. that. Okay. I'm sorry. Did you come up with any of the other elements of Iron Man? A. You mean the -- in the story parts? I Do you know whether -- strike

don't recall. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. I really don't. Let's talk about Ant-Man. That was another one I wrote, and I

came up with his name too. Q. A. Q. A. What was Ant-Man's name? Henry Pym, P-Y-M. And how did you come up with his name? I think I probably -- in the back of

Miriam Webster somewhere there was somebody Pym. And I thought "Henry" sounded like a scientist and "Pym" made it catching and different and exotic. Q. So I came up with that. How -- what was your involvement,

besides coming up with the name Henry Pym, what was your involvement? A. I think I wrote the first -- the first
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L. Lieber script. Q. I think I did. I believe I did.

And how did you come to write the

first script? A. The same way as the other. Stan had

said he had an idea for a character, he wanted to write the story and for one of the books and told me or gave me, you know, a synopsis and I went home and wrote it. Q. Do you remember what the plot was for

the first Ant-Man? A. Q. No. No. I'm sorry, I don't.

What did you do after you finished

writing the script for the first Ant-Man? A. Well, either I sent it to the person.

I think the Ant-Man, I think it was Jack Kirby who drew it, so I would have either sent it to him, if it was late, or I would have brought it to the office and then handed it to Stan. Q. And just to be clear, the -- when you

wrote the script for Ant-Man, that was also with the full breakdown of the panels? A. I believe so. MR. TOBEROFF: Q. That's fine. Objection to form. He just didn't like my
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L. Lieber you missed Milly when she was handing out the checks, then you went to bookkeeping and went over to Milly and she opened her drawer and said, "Here's your check." But if you didn't

come into the office, I don't remember if they sent them to you. you at home. home. Q. Maybe they then sent them to

I -- I don't recall getting it at

I know I got paid. That was my next question. Did you

get paid for all the work you did for Marvel? A. Yes. Yes. Objection.

MR. TOBEROFF: Q. was? A. Q. A. Q.

Do you know what Milly's last name Do you remember? No. Okay. No. When you received -- were you always

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You mean as opposed to cash? Yes. No. It was always check. Always

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L. Lieber MR. TOBEROFF: Just a second. Could

you do me a favor and just pause before answering a question so I have room to object before? I'm supposed to object

before you answer. THE WITNESS: MR. TOBEROFF: before you answer. THE WITNESS: MR. TOBEROFF: Okay. Sometimes if you answer I Yes. I'm supposed to object

too rapidly, I would be talking over you. don't want to do that. THE WITNESS: MR. TOBEROFF: BY MS. SINGER: Q. When you would receive a check from Okay. Thank you.

Marvel, was there anything printed on the check besides, you know, your name and the amount? MR. TOBEROFF: A. Yes. MR. TOBEROFF: Q. A. Q. You can answer. I paused. Good work.
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Objection.

Go ahead.

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L. Lieber Was there anything, just to be clear so for the record -A. the back. Q. the check? A. I don't recall the exact words, but And what was printed on the back of Yes, there was something printed on

the gist of it was that I was giving up all rights to it, that the work, you know, now is with the company and -- and I don't remember the exact wording, but I think it was something "giving up your rights" or "all rights." was the way I interpreted it anyway. That

I didn't

think much about it because I felt the only reason I was doing it was to get paid, you know. Q. And do you recall that those words or

something to that effect being on the back of every check you got from Marvel for that period from 1958 to '65? MR. TOBEROFF: A. Objection as to form.

I don't know the year, you know, all I

the years and I don't know if it was. remember in the early years seeing it.

Afterwards, I had been so used to it that I
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L. Lieber wouldn't have noticed if it was still there or not. I didn't think anything of it, so I don't

remember if it lasted until '65 or when it stopped or occasionally or whatever. Q. Do you have any recollection that it

stopped at some point? A. Q. No. No. Did

Let's talk about The Rawhide Kid.

you have any involvement in The Rawhide Kid? A. Oh, yes. Yes. I wrote The Rawhide

Kid and I drew it.

It had been written, yeah,

before me by Stan and Jack Kirby. Q. So did you write the first issue of

The Rawhide Kid? A. No. No. No. No, I -- I, no, it --

it came when Jack moved on to doing super-heroes. Q. What -- how did you come to work on

Rawhide Kid? A. I don't remember whether I initiated I -- I liked -- it

it or Stan offered it to me.

was an opportunity for me to write and draw the same strip, and that appealed to me. would have more control over it.
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I felt I

And at that

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L. Lieber MS. SINGER: 30, I'm sorry. 19. MR. TOBEROFF: writing aspect"? MS. SINGER: Q. Yes, carrying over. "Getting back to the 19 out of 20 -- 19 out of

The very last line on page

And you say, "They were full scripts

and I didn't think of Jack when I wrote it at all. All I thought of was will Stan like this

or will he tell me, 'Larry, this isn't good, you can't do this.' like that." Is that consistent with your recollection? A. Q. style." A. Q. Yes. There's a reference here to "Marvel Do you know what that is? I believe so. You want me -I didn't want to hear something

What's your understanding of what

Marvel style was? A. The Marvel style is what Stan did, or

I think I said in the interview it began around the time of the super-heroes and with Jack Kirby, perhaps with others, I don't know.
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Jack

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L. Lieber might have been -- I think Jack was the first. And where he would discuss a story or a plot with the artist and the artist would write it -not write, I'm sorry. The artist would lay it

out and draw it with enough knowledge about what the story is and leave room for dialogue to come later. Q. A. Q. A. And the "he" there was Stan Lee? I'm sorry? The "he" when you said "he"? Stan Lee. It would be Stan Lee and

the artist. Q. A. Okay. Yeah, that would be -- and I think

that was called the Marvel style. Q. The way -- when we talked about the

first script for Iron Man and the first script for Thor and the first script for Ant-Man, were those Marvel style? A. No. MR. TOBEROFF: Q. Objection to form.

Was the first scripts for Marvel -Let me start again.

strike that.

Were the scripts that you wrote for
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L. Lieber Iron Man, Ant-Man and Thor, were those Marvel style? A. No. MS. SINGER: Can we take just go off

the record for just two minutes? MR. TOBEROFF: MS. SINGER: Sure. Because I might be done. The time is 12:07

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: P.M.

We're now off the record. (Pause in the proceedings.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is We're now on

12:07 -- I'm sorry, 12:08 P.M. the record. MS. SINGER: further questions. Toberoff's turn. MR. TOBEROFF:

Mr. Lieber, I have no So now it is Mr.

Why don't we take a

five-minute break to organize some of the exhibits. MS. SINGER: Okay. This concludes tape We are

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: number 1.

The time is 12:08 P.M.

now off the record. (Recess.)
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