J.T. Colby & Company, Inc. et al v. Apple, Inc.

Filing 135

DECLARATION of Claudia T. Bogdanos in Opposition re: 120 MOTION in Limine to Exclude any Testimony, Argument or Evidence Regarding the Expert Reports and Opinions of Susan Schwartz McDonald.. Document filed by Ipicturebooks LLC, J.Boyston & Company, J.T. Colby & Company, Inc., Publishers LLC. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D, # 5 Exhibit E, # 6 Exhibit F, # 7 Exhibit G, # 8 Exhibit H, # 9 Exhibit I Part 1, # 10 Exhibit I Part 2, # 11 Exhibit J, # 12 Exhibit K, # 13 Exhibit L, # 14 Exhibit M, # 15 Exhibit N, # 16 Exhibit O, # 17 Exhibit P, # 18 Exhibit Q, # 19 Exhibit R)(Chattoraj, Partha)

EXHIBIT B

1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
-----------------------------X
J.T. COLBY & COMPANY, INC.,
d/b/a BRICK TOWER PRESS,
J. BOYLSTON & COMPANY
PUBLISHERS LLC and
IPICTUREBOOKS LLC,
Plaintiffs,
vs.

No. 11-cv-4060 (DLC)

APPLE, INC.,
Defendant.
-----------------------------X

DEPOSITION OF STEPHEN M. NOWLIS
Friday, December 14, 2012
New York, New York
9:30 a.m.

Reported by:
Maureen Ratto, RPR, CCR, CLR
Job No: 27929

Stephen M. Nowlis, Ph.D. – 12/14/2012
STATE OF NEW YORK
COUNTY OF NEW YORK

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REASON:

*Throughout the transcript, when I referred to the name IBOOKS
the court reporter transcribed it in the following manner:
iBooks. Also, when I referred to ILIT the court reporter
transcribed it as “iLit.” I corrected the capitalization for
these words wherever the court reporter was transcribing a quote
from an exhibit in order to match the capitalization used in the
original document. Otherwise, for simplicity, I have not
changed the capitalization used by the court reporter.
Subscribed and sworn to before me
this 14th day of January, 2013.

_________________________
Stephen M. Nowlis, Ph. D.

5

45
1

NOWLIS

2

buy something I think it says,

3

"sending," it takes five seconds, and

4

then it will say "Your sample has now

5

been received on your Nook.

6

now open it and look at it. I think

7

they use the word "sending" but I'm not

8

sure.

9
10

Q.

How would you describe the

business of Apple?

11
12

You may

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

I would say Apple is a -- in a

13

very general sense, a computer company

14

-- well, a computer company that sells

15

-- that sell phones, they sell

16

computers, they sell iPads, so I guess

17

I would call it a computer company.

18
19

Q.

Do you consider Apple to be a

book publisher?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

From the data generated from

22

your study, is it your opinion that

23

consumers consider Apple to be a book

24

publisher?

25

A.

No.

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2
3

NOWLIS
has nothing to do with selling?
A.

Well, I mean selling -- again,

4

the reason why I say "puts out," is

5

because that was meant to get at the

6

idea, if people thought that Apple was

7

the publisher but not -- I didn't ask a

8

question, for example, about available

9

because that might have meant something

10

else to people about whether they were

11

the distributor or, quote/unquote, the

12

seller, if you want to use that term.

13
14
15

Q.

Is "available," then, in your

opinion, a broad word?
A.

"Available," yes, it's a broad

16

word that it could encompass lots of

17

different things beyond source.

18

could encompass, for example,

19

distributor.

20
21
22

Q.

It

What else could it encompass, in

your opinion?
A.

Like I said, the distributor,

23

the retailer, that sort of thing, above

24

and beyond just whether the company had

25

anything to do with being the source of

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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50
1
2
3
4
5

NOWLIS
the item.
Q.

So what do you mean by "source"

then?
A.

The questions that I was getting

6

at about the source, affiliation and

7

sponsorship were meant to get more at

8

the publisher of the book.

9
10

Q.

Is publishing encompassed by the

word "available" or "made available"?

11
12
13
14
15

MS. CENDALI:
A.

I don't think in a very precise

way so, no, I don't think so.
Q.

Is "release" encompassed by

"available," "made available"?

16
17
18

Objection.

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

I mean, in a very ambiguous

sense.

19

Q.

How about "print"?

20

A.

Is "made available" the same as

21

"print"?

22

the same thing, no.

23

Q.

I do not believe those are

That wasn't my question.

24

"print" encompassed by "made

25

Is

available"?

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2

NOWLIS
Q.

Looking through Exhibit 3, do

3

you see instances in Exhibit 3 where

4

plaintiffs imprint appears as little I,

5

big B?

6

A.

I do and my understanding is

7

this was done recently and this is

8

where I see examples of that.

9

Q.

What is the basis for your

10

understanding that it was done

11

recently?

12

A.

I -- it's just -- that's my

13

understanding.

14

communications that I had with the

15

attorneys.

16
17
18

Q.

I believe this is

Any basis, other than

communications with counsel?
A.

No.

Other than, again, we

19

talked earlier about Exhibit 2 and

20

that's something that I produced and we

21

talked about Exhibit 2 confirms this

22

point that that Exhibit 2 we only see

23

small I, large B recently.

24
25

Q.

Can you take a look please at

page -- it's somewhat near the

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2

NOWLIS
A.

Yes.

As we talked about this

3

before, my understanding is that was

4

done fairly recently.

5

MS. BOGDANOS:

6

marked as Nowlis Exhibit 2?

7

Can I have this

And I would like to note for the

8

record that the questions and answers,

9

the testimony concerning this document

10

are confidential and the exhibit itself

11

is confidential.

12

page, yes it's -- is confidential,

13

"Restricted Confidential, Subject to

14

the Protective Order."

15

At least the cover

(Nowlis Exhibit 2, an e-mail

16

from John T Colby, Jr., was received

17

and marked on this date for

18

identification.)

19
20

Q.
2?

21
22

Dr. Nowlis, please read Exhibit

(Whereupon, the Deponent reviews
the document.)

23

A.

Okay.

24

Q.

Have you ever seen what has been

25

marked as Exhibit 2 before today?

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2

NOWLIS
a survey?

3

MS. CENDALI:

Objection.

4

A.

A way to capture opinion.

5

Q.

Is it an experiment?

6

A.

It can be.

7

Q.

Was yours?

8

A.

Yes.

9
10
11
12

I would call -- I would

call it an experiment, yes.
Q.

And your survey, you've said,

"captured opinions."
A.

Yes.

Is that right?

Well, you said -- it's not

13

my survey, you said, "How would you

14

describe a survey in general here?"

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Survey in general, let me come

Right.

17

up with something here.

18

capture people's opinions, sure.

19
20

Q.

It's a way to

Did your survey also capture

people's opinions?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

You intended for it to?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

So the data from your survey,

25

I believe it did.

they don't represent facts?

Is that

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

hypothesis but maybe you had an axe to

3

grind and you were trying to find

4

support for that.

5

You could design a survey

6

without a hypothesis or you could

7

design a survey where you don't have a

8

hypothesis because you don't even know

9

exactly what you're testing.

It's a

10

very broad based, there is a lot of

11

ambiguity, so I think a survey can

12

serve different purposes but one of

13

those certainly is to test a

14

hypothesis.

15
16

Q.

hypothesis?

17
18

Did your survey test a

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

My survey addressed an issue,

19

yes, which we could call a

20

"hypothesis."

21

Q.

How did that differ from what

22

Dr. McDonald did, because she also

23

tested a hypothesis, did she not?

24
25

A.

My understanding of her

testimony is what she said is she

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

number of things in here and what

3

exactly you wanted me to focus on.

4

I'm focusing on "dramatic rhetoric,"

5

which I wrote in my report about the

6

earlier pages, so now I will see --

7

look at the later pages.

8
9
10

So

(Whereupon, the Deponent reviews
the document.)
A.

Okay.

I would say I don't see

11

any examples of, quote/unquote,

12

dramatic rhetoric, from pages 8 to 17.

13

I see lots of other problems but I

14

would not phrase those as "dramatic

15

rhetoric" for these pages,

16

specifically.

17

Q.

Thank you.

And taking a look at

18

paragraph 19, page 7 of your own

19

report, that paragraph begins with the

20

words "Dr. McDonald's report." Correct?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And indeed, the heading B under

23

which paragraph 19 falls, begins

24

"Dr. McDonald's Report"?

25

A.

That is correct.

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

Apple consumer, do you consider Apple

3

to have strong "i-" brands?

4
5
6

MS. CENDALI:

Objection. Outside

the scope.
Q.

Let me rephrase it.

As a

7

marketing expert and as an Apple

8

consumer do you consider the iPhone to

9

be a strong brand?

10

A.

Do I?

I really don't know.

11

What I can tell you as a marketing

12

expert, I have seen studies that show

13

that Apple is a strong brand.

14

are studies on -- that analyze the

15

brand equity of different companies and

16

I believe they say that Coca-Cola is

17

the strongest brand in the world and

18

Apple is the second strongest brand in

19

the world, so I've seen their

20

methodology, it makes sense to me, and

21

I believe that.

22

There

I don't think I've ever seen any

23

studies on whether iPhone in and of

24

itself is a strong brand or not, so I

25

don't know. I'd like to rely on

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2
3

NOWLIS
something and not just speculate.
Q.

Do you -- as a marketing expert,

4

are you unable, then, to say that the

5

iPhone is a strong source indicator for

6

Apple, without having data to rely on?

7
8
9

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

That iPhone is a strong source

indicator for Apple?

Again, I couldn't

10

tell you that without some empirical

11

information.

12

and I don't believe in guessing.

13

marketing expert but I try to, as best

14

I can, have my opinions be based on

15

something rather than pure speculation.

16
17

Q.

I'm a

Would your answer be the same if

I asked it about Apple's iPad?

18
19

I don't want to venture

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

Again, I've seen no studies on

20

this, whether "iPad is a strong source

21

indicator for Apple," and I'm using

22

your exact wording here.

23

seen anything on that, so I honestly

24

couldn't tell you that without

25

speculating.

I've never

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2

NOWLIS
Q.

Do you provide marketing

3

consultancy services for anyone or any

4

company?

5

A.

Do I in terms of litigation?

Is

6

that what you mean?

7

expert, sitting here today, providing

8

consulting services in a litigation

9

matter.

I'm a marketing

10

Q.

In any non-litigation matters?

11

A.

I rarely, if ever, in terms of a

12

paid consultancy.

13

professor, I have students, I teach

14

executives, and many of these people

15

are working for a business at the time

16

they take my class.

17

marketing issues and I'll give my

18

opinions about different things they

19

tell me about and explain what the

20

situation is, and where they have

21

information I'll provide my expertise

22

in that area.

23

consulting, I would call that a

24

professor.

25

Q.

Again, I'm a

We talk about

I wouldn't call that

So the information that they

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2
3
4

NOWLIS
informed decision.
Q.

Have you seen advertisements for

the iPhone?

5

A.

I'm sure I have.

6

Q.

More than one?

7

A.

I can't recall.

8
9

to guess.
Q.

I'm not going

I'm not sure.

Have you studied anything, in

10

any literature or business reports,

11

about Apple's iPhone?

12

A.

I probably have seen articles

13

written on it but nothing comes to mind

14

right now about it.

15

Q.

Are you able to say whether

16

Apple, itself, considers that the

17

iPhone is a strong source indicator?

18
19

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

I have no idea what Apple would

20

say, itself.

21

what they think.

22

guess what they would say.

23

Q.

I would say ask Apple
I'm not going to

So when Dr. McDonald testified

24

that she "Entered into the case in the

25

spirit of intellectual freedom and

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

selected your stimulus and what you

3

were trying to achieve in selecting

4

your stimulus was to replicate

5

marketplace reality in the kind of

6

survey laboratory?

7

A.

Yes.

I mean, that -- that's

8

exactly why I gave them an actual book

9

that they would actually see in the

10

actual marketplace and asked them to

11

evaluate it. That's exactly why I did

12

that.

13

Q.

Do you agree or disagree with

14

the following statement, and this is

15

again as a marketing professional, as a

16

survey expert: "I think we attempt in

17

many of the more conventional scenarios

18

to try to create a kind of laboratory

19

understanding that a survey is never a

20

replication of the market. It is always

21

a laboratory.

22

stilted representation of the way

23

consumers shop and the way they

24

experience brands.

25

any sense at all and products are

It's always a somewhat

But where it makes

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

pedestrian and their marketing or sales

3

environment is pedestrian, we do it."

4
5

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

I'm not sure what the word

6

"pedestrian" means in this case.

7

with you for a while and then we

8

switched over to pedestrian.

9

Q.

Oh, okay.

10

A.

I was

Well -- and if you want a

11

complete answer here and then you

12

switched over to something else and I'm

13

not sure how to respond to it.

14

Q.

Okay.

Let me ask you again,

15

cutting out that word.

16

attempt in many of the more

17

conventional scenarios to try to create

18

a kind of laboratory understanding that

19

a survey is never a replication of the

20

market.

21

It's always a somewhat stilted

22

representation of the way consumers

23

shop and the way they experience

24

brands."

25

"I think we

It's always a laboratory.

Do you agree with that

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2

NOWLIS
A.

No.

And it also supports my

3

earlier point that you asked me about

4

before, about why did I pick a printed

5

book for my study and this shows 72% of

6

the adults have read a printed book,

7

which is by far the most common kind of

8

book.

9

Q.

Is it possible that someone

10

who's a reader of an e-book might

11

respond differently to the stimulus in

12

your study than someone who is a reader

13

exclusively of printed books?

14
15

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

Again, anything is possible.

I

16

try to live in the world of probable

17

and because in this case there is such

18

a great overlap amongst the -- both

19

people, they -- that read both types,

20

so if somebody is going to read a

21

printed book, they're also going to

22

ready an electronic book, and I see no

23

reason why they would respond

24

differently if they read both kinds of

25

books.

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1
2
3

NOWLIS
Q.

Have you ever discussed this

case with Mr. Kivetz?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Are you friends with Mr. Kivetz?

6

A.

I would say we're -- we're

7

colleagues, we're professional

8

colleagues, yes.

9
10

Q.

Have you ever worked as an

expert for Apple before?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

As a marketing expert are you

13

able to opine whether Apple has a

14

strong brand or would you not be able

15

to do that without data in front of

16

you?

17

A.

I think we talked about this

18

before and the research that I'm aware

19

of shows that Apple has a very strong

20

brand, I believe it was the second

21

strongest brand. I have not seen any

22

studies on their individual products,

23

so I would need some sort of support,

24

some sort of information, to be able to

25

give an intelligent answer to that,

DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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1

NOWLIS

2

Q.

Sure let's start with that one?

3

A.

I don't -- I have no idea what

4

-- what they would do.

5

think -- get in the mind of a company

6

and see how they would react.

7

know we talked about this, that when --

8

when people see a word starting with

9

"I," they tend to speculate and guess

I try not to

I do

10

that it has something to do with Apple

11

in many cases.

12

important to use a control that gets at

13

that guessing.

14

Q.

Okay.

That's why it's

With your experience with

15

brands and marketing and consumer

16

psychology, do you think consumers

17

would assume that a frozen pizza

18

product in the grocery store that was

19

called "iCheese," would have anything

20

to do with Apple?

21
22

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

If it has nothing to do with the

23

type of product that they sell, I

24

really don't know.

25

don't know how the average consumer

I'm not sure.

I

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A.

Right.

I don't know at this

point.
Q.

Do you know in a relative

5

context if a consumer seeing my frozen

6

pizza, my frozen iCheese pizza and a

7

consumer seeing, say, something called

8

an "iPen" that came with a little flash

9

drive on the top of it, if consumers

10

would be more likely to think the iPen

11

had something to do with Apple than

12

that -- than the iCheese pizza had

13

something to do with Apple?

14
15

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Objection.

Possibly because it -- consumers

16

can -- can see that it has something to

17

do with their core business.

18
19

Q.

Dr. Nowlis, who selected the

control that was used in your study?

20

A.

I did.

21

Q.

Can you take a look, please, at

22

exhibit -- Exhibit 1 in your study, at

23

page 40, in paragraph 98 you say "In

24

addition, all references to 'iBooks' on

25

the title page of the book were

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around with what they think they're

3

supposed to say, with what the right

4

answer is, even though they may --

5

never would have associated this with

6

-- with Apple at all, in the first

7

place, but they are asked this

8

question, they see an "I" and they say,

9

"Hmm, I see an 'I' on other things and

10

I guess I'm supposed to say 'Apple'

11

here."

12

I tried to point out examples of

13

this in -- in my report where people

14

said "I'm assuming," "I'm guessing,"

15

and that kind of a thing, so you would

16

want to remove that kind of "noise"

17

from your survey.

18

Q.

In my iPen example, then, is

19

there another type of noise to be

20

removed, namely someone who thinks of

21

Apple simply because the product has

22

something to do with electronics, with

23

computers?

24
25

A.

If -- if there's a basis for

that opinion other than "Hmm, I'm just

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going to take a wild guess, I'm

3

supposed to answer this," if there's a

4

real reason for them saying it, then,

5

that's perfectly okay. But that's

6

exactly is why the control is there, to

7

remove the sort of real reasons versus

8

the guessing and speculation, and it

9

can come in various forms.

You don't

10

know exactly what the "noise" is going

11

to be, but a good control can take care

12

of all of those different kinds of

13

"noise," so you get a true response.

14

Q.

Do you consider -- in your

15

study, do you consider Xbooks to be a

16

good control?

17

A.

18

did?

19

Q.

20

In my -- in the study that I

Right.

If in that study -- did

you consider using Xbooks as a control?

21

A.

I considered it, yes.

22

Q.

Why did you not select it?

23

A.

I thought that in my particular

24

study that iLit would be better.

25

didn't see a problem with it, I just

I

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Q.

In general, why are surveys

validated?
A.

To make sure that people

actually responded to the survey.

6

Q.

Is that the only reason?

7

A.

You asked me in general.

That

8

was the general reason.

9

other reasons besides making sure -- I

Are there

10

mean, I'm not -- I think that

11

encompasses a lot, to make sure that

12

somebody actually did it.

13

So, therefore, there wasn't some

14

sort of fraud going on or sloppiness or

15

other reasons to make sure that the

16

results were -- are real and not, you

17

know, the survey company didn't make

18

things up to make money, for example.

19

That's the general reason.

20

Q.

So if the survey company made

21

things up, that would really be a

22

fraudulent action on the part of the

23

interviewer or supervisor or someone

24

working for the survey company.

25

that right?

Is

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A.

True.

And it -- right.

And

3

another good reason for doing it is to

4

make sure that the person who said that

5

they did the survey, actually did the

6

survey, himself or herself, rather than

7

having somebody else complete it for

8

him or her.

9

Q.

So in a mall context, then, that

10

would be akin to a respondent providing

11

his brother's name instead of his own

12

name?

13

A.

Yeah.

That would be very

14

unlikely in a small setting for

15

somebody to fill out a survey and then

16

when they were recontacted, to say,

17

"No, it wasn't really me, that was my

18

brother who gave my name." That

19

wouldn't be very common to happen in a

20

mall survey, I don't think but, again,

21

validation, is just to make sure that

22

the person actually did it.

23

why.

24

Q.

25

Who knows

How does the context of an

internet study affect, if at all, the

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need to validate survey research?
A.

I don't think it changes

anything. I think it's still needed.
Q.

Even though there's no middle

6

person, as it were, such as the mall

7

interviewer or the supervisor who might

8

be cheating to get their quotas or --

9

even without the middle person, your

10
11

opinion is that the same issues remain?
A.

There is a middle person,

12

though, within a survey.

13

company that's conducting the survey,

14

right?

15

whose conducting the survey that is

16

giving you responses. Hypothetically,

17

they can make up responses to give you,

18

potentially.

It's the

So there's a middle person

19

But there's also the issue with

20

an internet survey where now the other

21

issue becomes much more likely.

22

now somebody who signed up for the

23

survey who met certain criteria, now he

24

or her does not fill out the survey,

25

but has somebody else do the survey for

We're

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Q.

Okay.

I didn't mean to leave

3

that unclear.

4

then, I apologize.

5

Okay.

I'll use your language

So the fact that 61% of

6

your respondents were reached and all

7

of the 61% verified their participation

8

in your study. Is that usual, such a

9

perfect track record?

10
11
12
13
14

A.

That's very common, yes.

I -- I

don't know why it wouldn't be.
Q.

Was that common in the internet

study that you conducted as well?
A.

I wish I could remember to help

15

you out here but I honestly don't

16

recall the percentage of people that

17

were validated, I wish I could.

18

Q.

And I made reference to a single

19

study and I know you said there may or

20

may not have been more than that.

21

you, as you sit here today, have any

22

recollection of an internet study that

23

you conducted where the validation

24

results were such -- were -- were lower

25

than 100%?

Do

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A.

I do not recall that, no.

3

Q.

Do you know of any study,

4

perhaps in your role as a rebuttal

5

expert, and it doesn't have to be a

6

study conducted by you, any trademark

7

study for litigation where the survey

8

results were thrown out because of

9

validation problems?

10

A.

When you say "thrown out," you

11

mean they weren't accepted by the judge

12

because of validation issues?

13

what you mean?

14

Q.

15

Yes.

16

A.

Is that

Let's start with that.

Sure.

I couldn't -- I couldn't

17

pinpoint, one way or the other.

18

simply don't know.

19

Q.

I

Do you recall any studies that

20

you have critiqued where the validation

21

was so low as to be problematic?

22

A.

I can vaguely recall possibly --

23

I'm not going to guess.

24

don't know.

25

Honestly, I

That's my truthful answer.

MS. BOGDANOS:

Let's take a

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doesn't mess up the covers.

3

sound good to you?

4

MS. BOGDANOS:

Yes.

Does that

Why -- why

5

don't we mark them on the inside of the

6

hardcover and then we are fine with

7

counsel taking these back into -- into

8

custody.

9

MS. CENDALI:

10

Thank you.

(Nowlis Exhibit 9, the test cell

11

for iBooks, was received and marked on

12

this date for identification.)

13

(Nowlis Exhibit 10, the control

14

cell for iLit, was received and marked

15

on this date for identification.)

16
17
18

(Whereupon, a discussion is held
off the record.)
Q.

Dr. Nowlis, a survey like yours

19

is an experiment designed to examine

20

what might happen in the real world.

21

Is that correct?

22

A.

It's -- it's -- right.

Right.

23

I refer to it as an experiment, it's an

24

experiment meant to replicate

25

marketplace conditions in the real

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world, yes.
Q.

And do you, then, attempt to

4

extrapolate from the data derived from

5

your survey experiment to predict

6

actual market conditions?

7

A.

Right.

They were -- people were

8

shown actual market conditions and the

9

responses that they gave would be

10

representative of the population, a

11

sample, a smaller group of people than

12

everybody in the population just like

13

political polls do, but that -- that is

14

meant to be representative of everybody

15

in -- in the universe.

16

Q.

And representative of everyone

17

in the universe's reaction to the

18

stimulus?

19
20
21
22

A.

25

Their opinion, based on

the stimulus.
Q.

No study replicates actual

market conditions.

23
24

Yes.

MS. CENDALI:
A.

Is that right?
Objection.

Well, I mean, I guess not to

split hairs here, but what actual

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