Oracle America, Inc. v. Google Inc.

Filing 199

Declaration of Daniel Purcell in Support of #198 Reply to Opposition/Response Daubert Motion filed byGoogle Inc.. (Attachments: #1 Exhibit A, #2 Exhibit B, #3 Exhibit C, #4 Exhibit D)(Related document(s) #198 ) (Purcell, Daniel) (Filed on 7/5/2011)

Exhibit B

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION

________________________
ORACLE AMERICA, INC.,
Plaintiff,
vs.

)
)
) No. CV 10-03561 WHA

GOOGLE, INC.,

)

Defendant.

)

________________________)

CONFIDENTIAL TESTIMONY - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF ROBERT GRIESEMER
THURSDAY, JUNE 23, 2011

PAGES 1 - 192

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Videotaped Deposition of ROBERT GRIESEMER,

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taken at 333 Twin Dolphin Drive, 4th Floor,

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Redwood Shores, California, commencing

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at 9:32 p.m., Thursday, June 23, 2011,

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before Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705.

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APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:

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FOR PLAINTIFF ORACLE AMERICA, INC.:

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MORRISON & FOERSTER

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BY:

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JESSICA TIPTON, ESQ. (Palo Alto office)

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ADELA GOTZ, Summer Associate

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425 Market Street

MICHAEL A. JACOBS, ESQ.

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San Francisco, California 94105-2482

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[phone]

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[e-mail]

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[e-mail]

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FOR DEFENDANT GOOGLE, INC.:

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KING & SPALDING

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BY:

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BRUCE W. BABER, ESQ. (Atlanta, Georgia office)

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1185 Avenue of the Americas

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New York, New York 10036-4003

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[phone]

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[e-mail]

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[e-mail]

MARK FRANCIS, ESQ.

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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL CONTINUED:

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FOR THE WITNESS:

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KRIEG, KELLER, SLOAN, REILLEY & ROMAN, LLP

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BY:

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555 Montgomery Street, 17th Floor

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San Francisco, California 94111

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[phone]

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GARTH A. ROSENGREN, ESQ.

[e-mail]

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ALSO PRESENT:

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NICK KASAMATIS, videographer

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ROBERT GRIESEMER,

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after having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

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---o0o---

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Good morning.

We're

9:32AM

on the record at 9:32 on June 23rd, 2011.

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This is the videotaped deposition of

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Robert Griesemer.

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with our court reporter, Kelli Combs.

My name is Nick Kasamatis, here
We are here

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from Veritext National Deposition & Litigation

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Services at the request of counsel for Plaintiff.

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This deposition is being held at King &

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Spalding, 333 Twin Dolphin Drive in the City of

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9:33AM

Redwood Shores.

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The caption of this case is Oracle of

9:33AM

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America versus Google, Inc., Case Number CV 10-03561

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WHA.

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Please note that audio and video recording

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will take place unless all parties agree to go off

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the record.

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up whispers, private conversations, and cellular

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interference.

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Microphones are sensitive and may pick

9:33AM

At this time, will counsel and all present
please identify themselves for the record.
MR. JACOBS:

Michael Jacobs, Morrison &

9:33AM

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policies at Sun that specifically related to

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retention by Sun of, for example, notebooks of

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individuals who had been named as inventors on any

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patents?

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A

I don't remember.

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Q

2:38PM

Okay.

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2:38PM

I'd like to go back to some of your

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earlier testimony, Mr. Griesemer, about the '205

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patent, so if you could get it back in front of you.

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It's PX164.

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2:38PM

And I just want to be sure that the

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testimony you have given is clear for both The Court

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and a jury to the extent they ever hear your

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testimony about this patent.

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In response to Mr. Jacobs' questions, you

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identified at least three different techniques for

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optimizing performance of a virtual machine,

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2:39PM

correct?

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A

Yes.

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Q

One of them was the so-called snippet

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technique that is described in the '205 patent,

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2:39PM

correct?

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A

Correct.

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Q

You also testified to some length about

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in-line caching, correct?

2:39PM

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A

Correct.

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Q

And you also testified about something

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2:39PM

called on-stack replacement, correct?

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A

Correct.

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Q

I'd like you to go back in time with me

2:39PM

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for a second to the time when you were working at

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Animorphic and then when you were working at Sun, up

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until the time the first patent application that

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became the '205 patent was filed, which would be

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June 30th of 1997, okay?

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A

Yes.

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Q

2:39PM

The timeframe I want to focus on is your

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time at Animorphic up until June 30th, 1997 at Sun,

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okay?

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A

Yes.

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Q

During that time period, do you believe

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that what you came up with in terms of the snippet

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2:39PM

technique was something new?

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A

I must have, but I don't recall.

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Q

Okay.

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2:40PM

During that same time period, do you

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believe that you came up with anything new that

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related to techniques for in-line caching?

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A

They were very, very platform-specific

variations of it.

2:40PM

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Q

When you say "platform-specific

2:40PM

variations," what do you mean?
A

I found that on the X86 platform, you

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could use an instruction that was not doing

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anything, so to speak, in the code to store -- to

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store some in-line cache information.

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Q

2:40PM

Okay.

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And during that same time period we're

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talking about now, your Animorphic days and then

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through June 30th of 1997 at Sun, do you believe you

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came up with anything new with respect to on-stack

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replacement?

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A

I don't recall.

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Q

2:41PM

Okay.

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And now I'd like you to look at the '205
patent.

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2:41PM

The '205 patent does describe and explains
the snippet technique, correct?

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A

Correct.

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Q

And it describes the snippet technique

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both can be used with in-line caching and without

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2:41PM

in-line caching, correct?

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A

Correct.

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Q

Okay.

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You mentioned a few minutes ago some very

2:41PM

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specific platform-specific techniques for in-line

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caching that you believe you developed during those

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days.

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2:41PM

Are any of those platform-specific

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techniques for in-line caching described in the '205

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patent?

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A

I believe they are not.

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Q

2:41PM

Okay.

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And do you believe that any techniques

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that you were using or came up with for on-stack

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replacement during that time period are described in

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the '205 patent?

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A

No.

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Q

2:41PM

Okay.

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I believe you also testified that at one

2:42PM

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point, there was a use in the HotSpot Virtual

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Machine of the snippet technique that's described in

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the '205 patent, correct?

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A

Yes.

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Q

And if I recall, your testimony is you're

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not sure when that was taken out, whether it was

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still at Animorphic or whether it was at Sun; is

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that right?

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A

Correct.

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Q

Okay.

2:42PM

2:42PM

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If you had available to you today the

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source code for the HotSpot Virtual Machine going

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back into that time period, would it be easy or

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difficult for you to determine when the snippet

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2:42PM

technique was discontinued?

2:42PM

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A

It would be very easy.

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Q

How would you do it?

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A

There -- in this patent, there is a

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specific bytecode described.

It's called go_native,

which was used to invoke those snippets.

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2:42PM

In the HotSpot Virtual Machine, there is a

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table of all the bytecodes.

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in that table, then -- and active -- it could be in

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the table, but is deactivated.

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table and active, then the technique is in use.

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it's not -- if it's not in a table at all, it's for

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certain not there.

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have to make sure it's actually invoked, but that

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would be fairly easy.

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Q

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And if that bytecode is

But if it's in a
If

2:43PM

If it's in a table, one would

Okay.

2:43PM

And you testified that the use of this

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snippet technique that's described in the '205

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patent was discontinued in the HotSpot Virtual

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Machine, correct?

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A

I believe that's correct.

2:43PM

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Q

Why was it discontinued?

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A

Because when you have a system where you

2:43PM

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both have an interpreter, but also a compiler or a

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JIT, then the benefit of having snippets is unclear

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and maybe actually counterproductive because of the

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complexity it introduces into the system.

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Q

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2:43PM

Okay.
And what experience did you have or

what -- what happened during the time period that

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the snippet technique was in use in the HotSpot

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Virtual Machine that led you to conclude that it was

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not beneficial?

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A

2:44PM

I believe we had measurements that show it

didn't make a difference.
Q

Okay.

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Did you have --

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2:44PM

When you say -- you say you had

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measurements that it didn't make a difference, are

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you saying you had measurements that there was no

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improvement of performance or that any improvement

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of performance was offset by the cost of having it

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in there in the first place?

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A

2:44PM

I don't recall, but they seem to be the

same at the end of the day, yeah.
Q

Okay.

2:44PM

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And during your testimony with Mr. Jacobs,

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you referred several times -- and again, I just want

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to make sure your testimony is clear to a

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layperson -- you talked about the cost of something,

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doing something in a program, and you also talked

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about overhead.

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2:44PM

2:45PM

Could you explain what those two concepts

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are when you use them in terms of the performance of

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a virtual machine?

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A

So this is all about making programs run

2:45PM

faster.

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And so by cost, one usually refers to, in

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this context, the extra time it takes to run a

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program.

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that there is an extra cost.

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So if it takes more time, then it means
2:45PM

Overhead goes into the same direction.

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Implementing the snippets causes some extra

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machinery to be executed, which one might casually

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refer to as overhead.

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offset by performance gains that are at least as

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large, then you end up with an extra cost at the

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end.

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Q

So if that overhead is not
2:45PM

Okay.
And again, just on these different

techniques that we talked about -- make sure we're

2:46PM

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clear -- the snippet technique you felt was

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something new that you came up with, correct?

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A

That Lars and I came up with.

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Q

2:46PM

In-line caching was old and known and

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people had been doing for quite some time?

2:46PM

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A

That is correct.

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Q

Is the same true of on-stack replacement?

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A

I don't recall when on-stack replacement

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was introduced the first time.

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Animorphic.

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Q

It may have been at

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2:46PM

How about use of a just-in-time compiler?

Was that something that was new with Animorphic?

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A

No.

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Q

That had been done for many years before

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that?

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2:46PM
A

In fact, we had a paper that referred to

Q

Now, during the time that you were at Sun

it.

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from approximately February of 1997 until November

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of 2001, right, that was your time at Sun?

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A

Yes.

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Q

2:47PM

Were you familiar with the different

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virtual machines that were being offered by Sun or

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any licensees of Sun?

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A

I did not follow any of Sun's offerings.

2:47PM

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Q

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Okay.

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2:47PM

Were you familiar with the HotSpot Virtual
Machine during that time period?

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A

I was familiar because I was familiar with

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it in the past, but I have not followed its

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development.

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MR. JACOBS:

MR. BABER:

Q

2:47PM

I'm talking about during the time you were

at Sun.

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A

Oh, during the time at Sun.

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Yeah, I think we did, too.

BY MR. BABER:

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12

I think you disconnected on

that.

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2:47PM

Okay.

Of course I was familiar with the HotSpot
Virtual Machine, yes.

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Q

2:47PM

Were you also familiar, during that same

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time, with other virtual machines that were being

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developed or commercialized at Sun or by Sun's

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licensees?

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A

I have heard of other virtual machines,

Q

2:47PM

And during your time at Sun, you worked

yes.

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not just on the HotSpot Virtual Machine, but you

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worked on other Sun virtual machines for the Java

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language, correct?

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A

I worked on that -- yeah, again, the

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virtual machine that was called casually Project

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Monty.

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Q

2:48PM

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Okay.
To the best of your knowledge,

2:48PM

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Mr. Griesemer, during the time you were at Sun, did

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any virtual machine offered by Sun or commercialized

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by Sun in any way to any third party include use of

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the snippet technique that is described in your '205

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patent?
A

2:48PM
Again, I don't know when exactly it was

removed, but to the best of my knowledge, no.
Q

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Okay.
Well, whenever the removal was, if the

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removal did occur at Sun, since the time it was

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removed, to the best of your knowledge, did any

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commercial product of Sun include the snippet

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technique?

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A

I do believe no.

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MR. BABER:

I don't have any other

2:49PM

questions.

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2:48PM

FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MR. JACOBS:

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Q

Just a few, Mr. Griesemer.

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A

Sure.

2:49PM

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I, ROBERT GRIESEMER, do hereby declare under penalty of

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perjury that I have read the foregoing transcript; that

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I have made any corrections as appear noted, in ink,

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initialed by me; that my testimony as contained herein,

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as corrected, is true and correct.

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EXECUTED this_________day of_____________, 2011, at

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_____________,__________________.

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(city)

(State)

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____________________________
ROBERT GRIESEMER

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STATE OF CALIFORNIA

)
) :ss
COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO )

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I, KELLI COMBS, CSR No. 7705, a Certified Shorthand
Reporter of the State of California, do hereby certify:

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That the foregoing proceedings were taken before me

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at the time and place herein set forth; that any

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witnesses in the foregoing proceedings, prior to

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testifying, were placed under oath; that the verbatim

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record of the proceedings was made by me using machine

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shorthand which was thereafter transcribed under my

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direction; further, that the foregoing is an accurate

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transcription thereof.

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I further certify that I am neither financially

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interested in the action nor a relative or employee of

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any attorney of any of the parties.

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IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date subscribed my
name.

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Dated: June 27, 2011

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_________________________

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KELLI COMBS, CSR No. 7705

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