Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1312

Declaration of Mark Tung in Support of 1269 ORDER by Judge Lucy H. Kohi> filed bySamsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company). (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 3, # 2 Exhibit 4, # 3 Exhibit 5, # 4 Exhibit 6, # 5 Exhibit 7, # 6 Exhibit 8, # 7 Exhibit 9, # 8 Exhibit 11, # 9 Exhibit 12, # 10 Exhibit 13, # 11 Exhibit 14, # 12 Exhibit 15)(Related document(s) 1296 ) (Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/24/2012) Modified on 7/25/2012 (fff, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT 13
FILED UNDER SEAL

Page 1
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA, SAN JOSE DIVISION

3
4

APPLE, INC., a California Corporation

5

vs.

6

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS COMPANY,

7

LTD, a Korean business entity; SAMSUNG

8

ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., a New

9

York Corporation; SAMSUNG

CN:11-CV-01846-LHK

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TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC,

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a Delaware Limited Liability Company.

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___________________________________/

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14
15

The videorecorded deposition of RAVIN

16

BALAKRISHNAN, PH.D., was held on Friday, April 20,

17

2012, commencing at 9:07 A.M., at the Law Offices of

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Quinn Emanuel, 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Suite

19

825, Washington, D.C., before Ronda J. Thomas, a

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Notary Public.

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22
23

REPORTED BY:

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Ronda J. Thomas, RPR, CLR

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JOB NO. 48807
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Morrison and Foerster on behalf of the plaintiff,

09:08

2

Apple.

09:08

3
4

MR. AHN:

Forester on behalf of Apple.

5
6

Matthew Ahn of Morrison and

MR. BUSEY:

09:08

And, also, I'm representing the

witness.

7

09:08

09:08
09:08

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Will the court reporter

09:08

8

please swear the witness.

09:08

9

Whereupon,

09:08

10

RAVIN BALAKRISHNAN, PH.D.,

09:08

11

called as a witness, having been first duly sworn to tell 09:08

12

the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was09:08

13

examined and testified as follows:

14

09:08

EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHNSON:

09:08

15

Q

Good morning, Dr. Balakrishnan.

09:08

16

A

Good morning.

09:09

17

Q

How many times have you been deposed now?

09:09

18

A

I don't have a precise count.

09:09

19

somewhere between half a dozen and ten.

20
21

(Brief pause.)
Q

09:09

Sorry about that.

09:09
09:09

Apple?

24
25

09:09

Is the bulk of your consulting work now for

22
23

I would say

09:09
MR. BUSEY:

A

Objection just to form.

The current litigation consulting I'm doing

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2
3
4

also accused of infringing the '381, right?
A

Yes, it is.

Or I've accused a Galaxy S4G.

Whether it's the exact same one I don't know.
Q

Take a look at the ThinkFree Office

10:38
10:38
10:38
10:38

5

application and tell me if it infringes the '381

10:38

6

patent?

10:38

7

A

Sure.

10:38

8

MR. BUSEY:

9

version of the Galaxy S4G this is?

10
11

MR. JOHNSON:

Can counsel represent what

A

10:39
10:39

2.3.3.

10:39

So I've just tried the ThinkFree Office

10:39

12

with two different PDF files and I cannot get it to do

10:39

13

the same functionality that I saw on the Galaxy S4G

10:39

14

with the ThinkFree Office in counsel's office.

10:40

15

Q

So Exhibit 4, the ThinkFree Office

10:40

16

application in Exhibit 4 doesn't infringe the '381

10:40

17

patent, right?

10:40

18

A

ThinkFree Office that I'm using right now

10:40

19

on Exhibit 4, this particular version does not seem to

10:40

20

infringe.

10:40

21
22
23

Q

Is it your understanding that some of the

10:40

versions of ThinkFree Office infringe and some don't?

10:40

A

ThinkFree Office versions that I tested on

10:40

24

the phones I list in paragraph 37 of my report do

10:40

25

infringe as I've indicated.

10:41

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Given what I've seen today with this

10:41

2

version of ThinkFree Office on the Exhibit 4 and the

10:41

3

one I just examined on the earlier exhibit, which I

10:41

4

believe was Exhibit 3, those two do not appear to

10:41

5

infringe.

10:41

6
7

So as a result at least these two versions
of ThinkFree Office do not.

8
9

Q

10:41
10:41

The question I have is:

When you looked at

10:41

the phones and products that were at Apple's counsel's

10:41

10

office, did you see any phones that had the ThinkFree

10:41

11

Office application that did not infringe?

10:41

12

A

I do not recall seeing any ThinkFree Office

10:41

13

applications that I tried that did not infringe the

10:42

14

381.

10:42

15

Q

Do you recall seeing any phones at Apple's

10:42

16

counsel's office or tablets where the Browser

10:42

17

application did not infringe?

10:42

18

A

I believe so, yes.

10:42

19

Q

Can you tell me which ones those were?

10:42

20

A

I don't have that on top of my head but I

10:42

21

might have it in the report.

22
23

Give me one minute.

10:42

(Witness reading.)
A

10:42

So in my report in paragraph 261 as one

10:43

24

example the Gem, G-E-M, phone did not appear to do the

10:43

25

'381's feature in the Browser and you get a hard stop

10:43

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instead of the snap back.

2

that I've seen is what's referred to as the blue glow

10:43

3

effect, which I talk about a little about it in

10:43

4

paragraph 262.

10:44

5

And the other alternative

I don't list in this the devices that have

10:43

10:44

6

that.

7

but I definitely have seen devices that do the blue

10:44

8

glow instead of the snap back.

10:44

9
10

My job here was to deal with the infringement

Q

do not infringe the '381 patent?

11
12
13

So the devices that exhibit the hard stop

MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.
A

10:44

10:44
10:44

Objection to the extent it's

It calls for a legal conclusion.

Go ahead.

So device running the Browser application,

10:44
10:44
10:44

14

and in the Browser application if it does the hard stop

10:44

15

or not the snap back or rubber-banding, then the

10:44

16

Browser application on that device would not infringe.

10:44

17

There may be other applications, like the

10:44

18

Contacts, that may not have a hard stop and might

10:44

19

infringe.

10:44

20

Q

What do you mean by hard stop?

10:44

21

A

By hard stop, I mean when you hit the edge

10:44

22
23

of the -- well, let's take it back to the claim.
For example claim element F here, which

10:44
10:45

24

says once you've reached the edge of the document,

10:45

25

displaying an area beyond the edge of the document,

10:45

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where it does not do that, and it does not do the

10:45

2

snapback functionality in elements G and H.

10:45

3
4
5
6
7

And a simple example of that is what I just
saw in the ThinkFree Office on Exhibit 4.
Q

And the blue glow does not infringe

the '381 patent either?
A

10:45
10:45
10:45
10:45

If it is only the blue glow and not the

10:45

8

blue glow in additional to the snapback that's in '381,

10:45

9

then a device or an application, having just the blue

10:45

10

glow and not doing the '381 snapback functionality,

10:45

11

would not infringe.

10:45

12

Q

Were there any other characteristics of the

10:45

13

Browser on products that you reviewed, besides the hard

10:46

14

stop and blue glow that you believe don't infringe?

10:46

15
16

MR. BUSEY:
A

Objection.

Ambiguous.

I believe I've seen a Browser that had a

10:46
10:46

17

yellow glow, but effectively it's the same

10:46

18

functionality as the blue glow but a different color.

10:46

19

And that, that would be the same as blue glow from a

10:46

20

functionality point of view.

10:46

21

Q

22

Any others?
MR. BUSEY:

10:46
Same objection.

10:46

23

A

That's all I can recall right now.

10:46

24

Q

Did you review any products that had a

10:46

25

Contacts application that did not infringe?

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A

You said Contacts application?

10:46

2

Q

Yes.

10:46

3

A

I believe I have seen Contacts applications

10:47

4

on some Samsung phones that had a blue or a yellow glow

10:47

5

functionality instead of the snapback functionality of

10:47

6

the '381, and that would not infringe.

10:47

7
8

Q

Samsung phones that exhibited a hard stop?

9
10
11

Did you see any Contacts applications on

A

10:47
10:47

Honestly, I don't recall offhand.

I might

have.

10:47
10:47

Q

Okay.

Do you remember seeing any Samsung

10:47

12

products that have a Gallery application that do not

10:47

13

infringe the '381 patent?

10:47

14
15
16

MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.
A

Objection again to being

Go ahead.
I might have.

10:48
10:48

I don't recall exactly

10:48

17

whether I have or not because many of these, there are

10:48

18

so many of these phones that I've tried.

10:48

19

have a list of the ones that don't do the '381.

20
21

Q

And I don't

You weren't interested in the ones that

don't infringe, right?

10:48
10:48
10:48

22

A

I was not making, keeping track of it.

10:48

23

Q

There are some phones that have a Gallery

10:48

24
25

application that exhibit a blue glow, right?
A

That might be true.

I, I just don't have a

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precise recollection of that.

10:48

2

Q

Do you know which ones?

10:48

3

A

I just said I don't have a precise

10:48

4

recollection.

5
6

Q

10:48

Do you have any -- do you have an imprecise

recollection?

10:48
10:48

7

A

No, unfortunately.

10:48

8

Q

Are there Samsung products that have a

10:49

9

Gallery application that exhibit a hard stop?

10
11

A

I have to give the same answer.

10:49
I might

have seen them but I don't recall offhand.

12

Q

10:49
10:49

Are you aware of any Samsung products in

10:49

13

the Gallery application that exhibit a hold still

10:49

14

phenomenon?

10:49

15

MR. BUSEY:

16

Q

Objection --

10:49

Sorry -- where the photo doesn't snap in

10:49

17

either direction, it just, if you move it, it stays

10:49

18

put?

10:49

19
20
21

MR. BUSEY:

Objection.

Ambiguous and

confusing.
A

10:49
10:49

When you move it and it stays put?

So you

10:49

22

move it off the edge and it stays put, is that what

10:49

23

you're saying?

10:49

24

Q

Right.

10:49

25

A

I have seen some Samsung products with a

10:49

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MR. BUSEY:

Let me see that, please.

01:59

2

A

Okay.

01:59

3

Q

Are we looking at one electronic document

01:59

4

there, two electronic documents, more than that?

5
6

A

I'm looking at at least two electronic

documents, yes.

01:59
01:59
01:59

7

Q

And what are the two electronic documents?

01:59

8

A

Well, the first one is this list of stocks.

01:59

9
10

The second one is this list of looks, like news

02:00

headlines at the bottom.

02:00

11

Q

And where is the edge of the documents?

02:00

12

A

In each case?

02:00

13

Q

Yeah.

02:00

14

A

The, in the one on the top, the edge is on

02:00

15

the top of the list and the bottom of the list and the

02:00

16

sides of the list.

02:00

17

And the same with the bottom, the news,

02:00

It's at the top of the list of the news

02:00

18

news feed.

19

feeds and bottom of the list of the news feeds -- news

02:00

20

feed.

02:00

21
22

Q

used in claim 16?

23
24
25

What does elastically attached mean as it's

02:01
02:02

(Witness reading.)
A

02:02

In the context of the claims, it means the,

02:02

when moving from, the document from one, one direction

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to the other direction so the area beyond the edge

02:02

2

disappears, that movement gives the appearance of it

02:02

3

being attached with an elastic band, for example, the

02:03

4

analogies to the physical world.

02:03

5

instantly snap back, like instantly you see a elastic

02:03

6

movement or an animation.

02:03

7

Q

So it doesn't

Do the bounce features that you reviewed in

02:03

8

the Samsung products elastically snap back, or do they

02:03

9

instantly snap back?

02:03

10
11
12

MR. BUSEY:

Objection.

Ambiguous.

Calls

for a legal conclusion.
A

02:03
02:03
02:03

I'm sorry, the, just to clarify that, the

13

They all elastically snap back.

02:03

14

Gallery and Contacts and Browser accused products

02:03

15

elastically snap back.

02:03

16
17

Q

20 are, is based upon your analysis of claim 1, right?

18
19

MR. BUSEY:

Objection to the extent it

mischaracterizes the witness' prior testimony.

20
21

Your analysis with respect to claims 19 and

02:04
02:04
02:04
02:04

(Witness reading.)
A

02:04

The analysis of the functionality is based,

02:05

22

it's in part based on the analysis I did in claim 1

02:05

23

but, of course, claim 19 talks about things like memory

02:05

24

and programs and instructions, and that is the

02:05

25

additional analysis presented in my report.

02:05

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2

Q

Okay.

Well, claim 19, for example,

paragraph 191, you say:

3

02:05
02:05

Because these devices perform the elements

02:05

4

described in claims 1 and 19, they must have

02:05

5

instructions for performing those methods and a storage

02:05

6

medium for those instructions as recited in those

02:05

7

claims.

02:05

8
9
10
11
12
13

Have you confirmed that the accused devices
actually have those instructions?
A

02:05

Yes, because I looked at the source code on

the machines in Quinn's offices in Redwood Shores.
Q

So why does your report say they must have

as opposed to they do, in fact, have?

14

Is there a distinction there in your mind

15

or no?

16

A

02:05

02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06
02:06

They do have and they must have, because

02:06

17

without, without having it, they wouldn't be able to do

02:06

18

this functionality.

02:06

19

Q

Okay.

Now, with respect to section Y of

02:06

20

your report, you talk about the difficulty of design

02:06

21

around?

02:06

22

A

I'm sorry, what paragraph is that?

02:06

23

Q

261.

02:06

24

A

Yes.

02:07

25

Q

Can you list for me, what are the

02:07

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non-infringement alternatives to a '381 patent?

02:07

2

A

That I've seen in the Samsung devices?

02:07

3

Q

Yes.

02:07

4

A

Okay.

So the first one that we have

02:07

5

already talked about is what has been referred to as a

02:07

6

hard stop.

02:07

7

report.

8
9
10

And that's discussed in paragraph 261 of my

02:07
If there's a hard stop, and there isn't,

02:07

the bounceback or snapback effect that's found in the

02:07

claims of the '381.

02:07

11

Similarly, if it uses the blue glow effect

02:07

12

which we have discussed and I talk about in the 262,

02:07

13

sorry, paragraph 262, again, assuming the blue glow is

02:07

14

there and the functionality that is infringing the

02:07

15

claims, which is the snapback functionality is no

02:07

16

longer there, then that would not be infringing.

02:08

17

And as I said, I think, earlier this

02:08

18

morning, I've seen a yellow glow as well, which would

02:08

19

be effectively the same --

02:08

20

Q

Have you seen --

02:08

21

A

-- the same as the blue glow.

02:08

22

Q

Have you seen any other non-infringing

02:08

23

alternatives?

24
25

02:08

MR. BUSEY:
ambiguous.

I'm going to object as

Go ahead.

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so --

2

03:06

3

Q

Okay.

Was a DiamondTouch device with a

tabletop cloth application ever sold to anyone?

03:06
03:06

4

A

I do not know.

03:06

5

Q

Was a DiamondTouch device with the

03:06

6

Tablecloth application ever used in public?

03:06

7

A

I don't know.

03:06

8

Q

I think you said you weren't sure whether

03:07

the DiamondTouch device that was in the lobby of MERL

03:07

had Tablecloth on it, right?

03:07

9
10
11

A

That's right, at that timeframe.

03:07

12

Q

Are you aware of any other timeframe in

03:07

13

which the DiamondTouch device in the MERL lobby had

03:07

14

Tablecloth on it?

03:07

15

A

I'm not aware of it having it.

It might

03:07

But I do not recall ever seeing Tablecloth on

03:07

16

have.

17

the device in the lobby.

03:07

18

Q

Did you work with Mr. Forlines?

03:07

19

A

Yes.

03:07

20

Q

What did you work on together?

03:07

21

A

We worked on a variety of different

03:07

22

research projects involving user interfaces over the

03:07

23

years.

03:08

24

Q

Can you be any more specific?

03:08

25

A

Well, I can start from my CV because I've

03:08

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published some papers with him.

2

concrete.

3
4

I'll make it more

03:08
03:08

And I'm assuming you mean -- are you saying
during that timeframe or in general?

03:08
03:08

5

Q

In general.

03:08

6

A

So one project I worked on was on a user

03:08

7

interface for zooming and pointing using a handheld,

03:08

8

interactive handheld projector.

03:09

9

research.

10
11
12

That was one piece of

03:09
Another piece of research was on gesture

registration on a direct-touch surface.
Another piece of research was a study,

03:09
03:09
03:09

13

experimental evaluation of how it displays position and

03:09

14

the orientation of the user's control space with

03:09

15

effective user performance and preference.

03:09

16

Another study was on what we call hybrid

03:09

17

pointing, a way to switch between absolute and relative

03:09

18

pointing between, with direct input devices.

03:09

19

Another one was a study, an experimental

03:10

20

study on the effects of size, group size, the number of

03:10

21

people in a group, and the display configuration on the

03:10

22

visual search tasks.

03:10

23

There was another study on the perception

03:10

24

of elementary graphical elements and tabletop

03:10

25

environments.

03:10

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2

Another study on direct touch versus mouse
input for tabletop displays.

3

03:10
03:10

And yet another study on evaluation of

03:10

4

tactile feedback compared to direct versus indirect

03:10

5

stylus input in pointing and crossing selection tasks.

03:10

6
7

Q

Did you work with

Mr. Bogue?

8
9

How about Mr. Bogue?

A

03:10
I did not work with Mr. Bogue on any

research projects per se.

10

Q

03:10

03:10
03:11

And how about Mr. Wigdoor?

Did you work on

03:11

11

anything in particular with Mr. Wigdoor while at

03:11

12

consulting for Mitsubishi Electric Research Labs?

03:11

13

A

Yes.

03:11

14

Q

Can you tell me what you worked on?

03:11

15

A

Sure.

03:11

Some of that overlaps the list I just read.

03:11

16
17

Mr. Forlines was the co-author on some of that work as

03:11

18

well.

03:11

Let me just go through this again.

19

So this is with Mr. Wigdoor at MERL?

03:11

20

Q

Right.

03:11

21

A

So there was a research, piece of research

03:11

22

done -- yeah, I think this was done at MERL.

23

100 percent sure whether some of it was done at the

03:12

24

University as well.

03:12

25

the effect of orientation on the readability of text in

I'm not

It's work in 2005 investigating

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tabletop displays.

2

03:12

That study I mentioned earlier on display

03:12

3

position and control space orientation and user

03:12

4

performance and preference.

03:12

5
6

A piece of research called under the table
interaction.

7
8

the effects of group size and display configuration -THE COURT REPORTER:

10
11
12

03:12
Another piece of research which looked at

9

03:12
03:12

Of what size?

03:12

Excuse me -- group size and

THE WITNESS:

03:12

display configuration on visual search.
A

03:12

03:12

Another study, which I believe I mentioned

03:13

13

earlier, perception of elementary graphical elements in

03:13

14

tabletop and multisurface environments.

03:13

15
16

The study on direct touch versus mouse
input for tabletop displays.

17

03:13
03:13

I think that's pretty much it for MERL.

18

Q

19

03:13

You've reviewed Mr. Van Dam's report,

03:13

right?

20

03:13
MR. BUSEY:

Objection.

Ambiguous.

03:13

21

A

The report in this case, '381?

22

Q

Yeah.

03:13

23

And is it your opinion that the prior art

03:13

24

references for the '381 patent have to be manipulated

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25

in just the right way to profuse the allegedly

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide

877-702-9580

Yes.

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