Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1344

Unredacted Apple's Opening Design Patent Claim Construction Brief (Dkt. No. 1089) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, by Apple Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 8, # 2 Exhibit 9, # 3 Exhibit 10, # 4 Exhibit 11)(Jacobs, Michael) (Filed on 7/25/2012) Modified text on 7/26/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

Exhibit 8
(Submitted Under Seal)

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

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APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

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Plaintiff,
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vs.

CASE NO.

11-cv-01846-LHK

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SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
LTD., a Korean business
entity; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
AMERICA,INC., a New York
corporation; SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,
LLC, a Delaware limited
liability company,
Defendants.
____________________________/

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H I G H L Y
C O N F I D E N T I A L
O U T S I D E C O U N S E L O N L Y

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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN IVE
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2011

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BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR, RPR, CCRR, CLR
CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
JOB NO. 43920
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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MR. ZHANG:
Foerster, for Apple.

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4

Patrick Zhang, Morrison &

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Will the court reporter

please swear in the witness.

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JONATHAN IVE,

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having been sworn as a witness

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by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,

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testified as follows:

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

You may proceed.

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EXAMINATION BY MR. ZELLER

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MR. ZELLER:

Q.

Good morning.

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A

Good morning.

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Q

I understand you've had the pleasure of being

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deposed at least a couple of times before, but one, if

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I understand correctly, and tell me if -- if you

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recall this, was a case called Apple versus Future

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Power?

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A

Yes, I do recall.

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Q

All right.

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And generally speaking, that was about the

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iMac?

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A

Yes.
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insofar as it's describing the iPhone?

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A

I do agree with that statement.

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Q

And is there anything about the external

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outward appearance of the hardware of the iPhone that,

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in your view, makes it more accessible, easier to use

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and -- and much less technically intimidating than --

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than previously available devices?

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MR. JACOBS:

External -- objection; vague.

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THE WITNESS:

Could you just repeat that.

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MR. ZELLER:

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If we can read it back, please.

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(Whereupon, record read by the Reporter as

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Sure.

follows:
"Q.

And is there anything about the external

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outward appearance of the hardware of the

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iPhone that, in your view, makes it more

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accessible, easier to use and -- and much

18

less technically intimidating than -- than

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previously available devices?")

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THE WITNESS:

Yes, I believe there are

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aspects of its appearance that consequently, it has

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that effect and that result.

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MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And please tell me what, in

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your view, about the outward appearance, the external

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hardware of the -- the iPhone, makes it more
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accessible, easier to use and -- and less technically

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intimidating.

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A

I think something that is beautiful, that is

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simple, that's calm, that has clarity, from my

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experience, people are not intimidated by products

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that have that appearance.

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to be complex and difficult to use because of the

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appearance of simplicity, of order, of calm.

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think products that are beautiful, people like to use.

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Q

They don't perceive them

And you used the word "clarity."

And I

What do you

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mean by clarity in the context that we're talking

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about here; specifically, the -- this external

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appearance of the iPhone?

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15
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17
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A

I think clarity comes with some -- some order

and is consequent to -- to simplicity.
Q

And what do you mean by "simplicity" in this

context as a -- as a designer?
A

That you are trying to communicate a

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hierarchy of what's important, and that you work to

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get rid of distractions.

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22

Q

In the context of the -- the iPhone design,

what would you consider to be distractions?

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MR. JACOBS:

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THE WITNESS:

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Objection; form.
I -- I -- I don't really

understand the question.

I just said in the iPhone

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design, we -- we try to make it simple.

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MR. ZELLER:

Right.

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THE WITNESS:

So --

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MR. ZELLER:

5

THE WITNESS:

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MR. ZELLER:

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Q

I understand.

And so --- are you talking generally?
Yeah.

And, of course, any time that I ask an

8

unclear question, which will certainly happen today,

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just speak up, and I'm happy to rephrase it.

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A

Yes.

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Q

You mentioned that, yes, affirmatively what

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you were trying to do and -- and wanted to do as part

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of the iPhone design was to work to get rid of

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distractions, as you said.

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And -- and what I'm really trying to find out

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is, is that were there -- were there design components

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or elements that were at one point potentially part of

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the iPhone design that you considered to be a

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distraction and, therefore, eliminated it?

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A

An example of a potential distraction could

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be fasteners that hold case parts together.

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typical fastener used in products of the iPhone scale

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would be a screw.

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multiple screw heads and holes.

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The most

So in many products you'll see

It is often believed that there is a
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functional imperative to have screws.

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makes the product easier to design, easier to

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manufacture, normally cheaper.

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It certainly

And so, for example -- this is just one -- we

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work very hard to try and develop architectures to

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develop a process and a method of assembly, a

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structural story, so that we don't have visible

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fasteners on the outside of the product.

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Q

During the -- the course of the design and

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development of the iPhone itself, the first iPhone,

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were there any aspects of the design that you

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personally looked at and -- and said that was a

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distraction and, therefore, got rid of it?

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MR. JACOBS:

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THE WITNESS:

Objection; form.
I specifically recall working

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on the design and detailing of -- of screws.

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process is so fluid and is a constant series of

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conversations that I know that I cannot specifically

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recall the many instances when we're talking about how

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to best create a -- a beautiful hierarchy for the

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product.

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MR. ZELLER:

Q.

The

Do you recall any iteration

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of the first iPhone design that Steve Jobs looked at

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and considered to be a distraction and told people he

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thought it was a distraction?
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design that you wanted to come up with, the -- for

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the -- the first iPhone could be undermined by certain

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features.

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A

Yes.

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Q

And you had mentioned among them putting,

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say, for example, the FCC regulatory artwork or

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barcodes or other matter on that front flat surface as

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examples of something that could undermine the design

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that you were going for.

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A

Yes.

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Q

And so my question is:

Would you put in that

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same category as other kinds of writing or other kind

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of matter on the front flat surface that would

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undermine that design to include a company name or

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logo?

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A

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I understand.
No.

I would see the -- I think a logo -- a

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company logo, I think, is in a very different category

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from barcodes and regulatory icons.

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Q

And why do you say that?

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A

Because it's your brand.

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many different contexts.

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We use our logo in

logo.

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I think it's a beautiful

So the decision not to include the logo or
the word "Apple" wasn't because we were concerned that
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that would undermine our design story and intent and

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goal.

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we were developing was going to be distinct and

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beautiful, would be -- be new, would be recognizable,

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and like the iPod, would become synonymous with the

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brand.

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It's just that we were confident that the phone

Q

Why is it that the various versions of the

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iPhones only have a -- a single button on the front

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surface?

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A

We were very clear at the early stages, as I

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described previously, that for -- for this idea of

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this infinity edge pool, this -- this oily pond, to --

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to actually work, there couldn't be multiple buttons

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or features that would distract and make -- and

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undermine that design goal.

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And I do remember from some of the earliest

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stages of working on the program that we -- that we

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drew a simple circular button, and we tried to balance

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that with a centered display, and then the rectangular

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receiver slot with radio sensor at either end.

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we -- from the -- the earliest sketches, we -- we had

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details like that, and that they did not seem to -- to

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undermine the design intent.

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25

So

I actually think the round -- the circular
button is really quite beautiful.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

It's concave.

[phone]

It

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has a gentle -- a gentle, very large radius, concave

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section.

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Q

From your perspective, is that design of

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the -- the single home button that we're talking about

5

here on the front surface of the iPhone design, an

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important part of -- of the overall aesthetic of it?

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A

It's a part of the aesthetic.

I think

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it's -- it's not as important as, you know, this flat

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infinity edge pool.

It's not as important, in my

10

mind, as, you know, this thin, constant-sectioned

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bezel that just delicately wraps around the perimeter,

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remaining constant.

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think is beautiful and I think -- I think doesn't

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undermine the design intent at all.

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Q

But it's an element that is -- I

In your view, if the original iPhone looked

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exactly the same as it went to market, but it didn't

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have any button on the front flat surface, do you

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think that would make it a different design, in your

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view?

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MR. JACOBS:

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THE WITNESS:

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Objection; form.
Can you -- could you repeat

that, please.

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MR. ZELLER:

Sure.

24

Q

If -- if the iPhone design --

25

A

Yes.
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design that --

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A

Yes.

3

Q

-- you did see previously?

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A

Yes.

5

Q

And do you generally recognize what's

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depicted here as a printout of a -- a CAD design that

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was -- was generated in connection with the first

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iPhone?

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A

Yes, I recognize this as the design -- one

10

of -- one of many, but the design that I drew the

11

section for you.

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Q

And for the record, you're referring to

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the -- the drawing that you made that we marked as

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Exhibit 1176?

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16
17

A

So, for example, you can see that on the --

the second page.
Q

And when you say "the second page," you're

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referring to the second page of images that's part of

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Exhibit 1 that we're talking about?

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A

That's right.

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Q

And, generally speaking, do you recognize

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this design that's shown here in the CAD printout

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that's Exhibit 1 to Mr. Stringer's declaration as

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being one of the designs that was -- was considered

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but ultimately rejected for the original iPhone?
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A

Yes, I do.

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Q

And what were the reasons why the design

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4

that's shown here in -- in Exhibit 1 was rejected?
A

I remember -- I don't have complete

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recollection of discussions with Steve and the team.

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I have a recollection that Steve thought it was ugly.

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It was refined, and we had spent -- we had

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some fairly detailed models that were made.

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discussions were around models, not the -- the CAD.

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And I think that we collectively felt that we could

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make something more beautiful than this.

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Q

So the

Focusing on the design that's shown here as

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part of Exhibit 1 to Mr. Stringer's declaration, do

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you believe that this -- this design here distracts in

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any way from the display?

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A

No.

17

Q

Was the fact that it had these edges on the

I think this design -- no.

18

front surface around the -- the display, in other

19

words, part of the metal surface, actually was on the

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front surface, one of the reasons it was rejected?

21

A

No.

22

Q

Was that --

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A

Not that I recall.

24

Q

Was there ever any discussions there within

25

Apple about the -- the fact that this design that's
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shown here in Exhibit 1 had a rim or -- or metal on

2

the front surface that distracted from the display?

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A

No.

My recollection of the -- the discussion

4

relating to this was just that it -- it wasn't truly

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beautiful.

6

You see, the -- the clear material was

7

coplanar with -- with the shell, with the body.

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I mean by that, it was a continued -- continuous

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surface.

10

What

And so this design, I think, very

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successfully -- very successfully featured the

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display.

13

chin.

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same on both the right- and left-hand side.

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material was -- I actually remember quite specifically

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just the detail of the junction between the clear

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material and the other aluminum.

It has equal borders on the forehead and the

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It has equal -- that the distance is -- is the
The clear

And so I think this design was really --

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really quite successful in -- in establishing a

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hierarchy where the display was visually distinct and

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special, but I remember that we just didn't think that

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it was -- was beautiful.

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better.

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25

Q

We thought we could do

Any other reasons you can recall this -- this

design being rejected?
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A

No.

What I recall was, I recall the word

2

"ugly," and I recall the sentiment that we could do

3

better, that we could make a more beautiful, a more

4

distinctive phone.

5

Q

Any other reasons you can remember?

6

A

That's my recollection.

7

Q

If you can please take a look at the page 3

8

in Mr. Stringer's declaration, which is Exhibit 1161.

9

You'll see in paragraph 10 he's talking here

10

about the development of the -- the first iPhone, and

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he says:

12

"In fact, as late as March 2006, the

13

industrial design team was working on a detailed

14

proposal for a very different iPhone design."

15

Do you see that language?

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A

Yes, in paragraph 10.

17

Q

Right.

18

And then it continues on in paragraph 11

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where he's discussing the exhibits, including the

20

exhibit that we just talked about, and he says:

21

"Attached as Exhibits 1 through 6 are CAD

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renderings of some of the alternate iPhone designs we

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pursued and considered during the development process

24

for the iPhone."

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Do you see that part?
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A

That's right.

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Q

Got it.

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MR. JACOBS:

Can we take a couple of minutes?

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MR. ZELLER:

Sure.

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

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We're off the record at 8:26 p.m.

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THE REPORTER:

8

(Recess taken.)

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

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One moment, please.

6:28.

We are back on the record

at 6:36 p.m.

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You may proceed.

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MR. ZELLER:

Q.

Sequentially, was the idea

13

for having an oily pond or infinity edge pool as the

14

design done first for the tablet, or the phone, or the

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iPod Touch?

16

A

Well, as an idea, that -- that is a -- as a

17

thought, as a story, the first explorations of that, I

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think, occurred with the -- the first explorations

19

associated with the iPad.

20

I can't remember when.

I wouldn't begin to

21

know when I could put a date on that, but I think

22

that's something that we found significant and

23

beautiful and had a particular relevance to handheld

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products that featured a display and that was combined

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with touch sensors and multi-touch technology.
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2
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So I think we -- we started exploring designs
around that story really fairly early on.
Q

4
5
6

All right.
And sequentially that was first with the

tablet design?
A

Yes; I think that -- my recollection was

7

that's the first time that we were working on a

8

handheld design that had this multi-touch capability

9

that allowed you to touch it with your finger, so I

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think that was really the first time we explored

11

designs as part of that story.

12

Q

And then sequentially, as part of the -- the

13

story that we're talking about, the oily pond or the

14

infinity --

15

A

Yes.

16

Q

-- pool, was next the iPod Touch or the

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18
19

iPhone?
A

It would have been whatever product came --

came next.

20

Q

Do you remember which one that was?

21

A

I'm afraid I don't.

22

Q

And, in your view, was this design story or

23

design goal of an oily pond or infinity edge pool met

24

with the iPad and iPad 2 designs?

25

A

I think they are examples that reflect that
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thinking.

2

Q

Did it -- in your view, did those designs

3

fall short of that goal in any way of this -- this

4

oily pond or this infinity edge pool story?

5

A

I don't know if I would say they -- they fell

6

short.

7

we set ourselves and the interests that we -- we had

8

in trying to create a beautiful product that -- that

9

featured this clear material that extended to the

10

edge, extended to the perimeter of the product.

11
12
13

I think they are reflections of the goals that

So I think they were reflections of that
thinking that we were happy with.
Q

And -- and focusing just on this, this fact

14

of the oily pond or the infinity edge pool, one aspect

15

of the design that you mentioned achieving that goal

16

is the fact that the front surface of these electronic

17

devices that we're talking about has a flat,

18

continuous surface on the front.

19
20
21

A

Yes, that was an aspect of that exploration,

that discussion, that story.
Q

What else, in your view, achieves that

22

effect, specifically of the oily pond or the infinity

23

edge pool effect, beyond, as we just talked about,

24

the -- the continuous flat surface?

25

A

So what we were interested in was that flat
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A

Right.

2

Q

-- do you have any -- any knowledge or

I see.

3

information as to whether or not there are any use

4

advantages in having a symmetrical presentation of a

5

display with a mobile device?

6

A

No.

Based on my experience, based on what I

7

know today, I would only continue to be aware of the

8

functional -- the manufacturing, the engineering, the

9

multiple aspects of the engineering challenges as a

10

result of -- of having the -- the display centered.

11

Q

Can you -- can you think of any engineering

12

advantages or utilitarian advantages at all to having

13

the symmetrical presentation?

14

MR. JACOBS:

15

THE WITNESS:

Objection; asked and answered.
The -- the advantage that I can

16

think of, I -- I can answer that generally.

17

advantage I could -- you know, I thought of during the

18

development was that it was beautiful.

19

advantage I remember.

20

of now.

21
22

MR. ZELLER:
A

The

That was the

That's the advantage I'm aware

Q.

Any others?

That it was beautiful and I think enabled

23

the -- the story that we were so interested in in

24

terms of this, this infinity edge pool, this black

25

oily pond.
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

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I, ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, hereby certify

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that the witness in the foregoing deposition was by me

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duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

7

nothing but the truth in the within-entitled cause;

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9

That said deposition was taken in shorthand

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by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of

11

California, and was thereafter transcribed into

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typewriting, and that the foregoing transcript

13

constitutes a full, true and correct report of said

14

deposition and of the proceedings which took place;

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That I am a disinterested person to the said
action.

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IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand this 2nd day of December, 2011.

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_______________________________________
ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, RPR, CCRR, CLR, CSR No. 9830

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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