Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 2130

Declaration Reply Declaration Of John R. Hauser In Support Of Apples Motion For A Permanent Injunction filed byApple Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D, # 5 Exhibit E, # 6 Exhibit F, # 7 Exhibit G)(Jacobs, Michael) (Filed on 11/9/2012)

Exhibit G

Confidential

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN
DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA SAN JOSE DIVISION
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APPLE INC., a California corporation,

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PLAINTIFF,
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-against6

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SAMSUNG ELECTRONIC CP., LTD., a Korean
business entity; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
AMERICAN, INC., A New York Corporation;
SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA, LLC,
a Delaware limited liability company,

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DEFENDANTS.
---------------------------------------X
REVISED
***CONFIDENTIAL***
DEPOSITION OF TULIN ERDEM
New York, New York
Wednesday, November 7, 2012

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Reported by:
Rebecca Schaumloffel, RPR, CLR
Job No: 55304

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of demand is for Samsung smartphones?
A.

Based on the research, the ones

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that are, again, often cited as important

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ones tend to be things that -- actually, you

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can even read.

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paragraph that lists from Samsung documents

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what they think consumers look at.

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example, in their case, brand is a driver.

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Q.

Can I refer -- there is a

For

Just to be clear, I'm not asking

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for what features generally are important or

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what the top three features or top seven

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features are.

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an opinion on what the single primary driver

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of demand is for a smartphone?

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A.

I'm simply asking, do you have

I'm saying that kind of question,

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single primary demand factor, there is no

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single primary demand factor in most

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categories, including here, although there

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might be some consumers where one single

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thing makes them to decide.

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Q.

So it is your opinion that there

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is no single primary driver of demand for

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smartphones?

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A.

11:21AM

If you want me to single out one

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attribute that determines demand and not

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others, I can't name such a single attribute.

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Q.

And again, you haven't tested for

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that in terms of your own primary research,

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right?

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A.

I haven't done my own primary

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I'm relying on, as I said, both

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research.

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Apple and Samsung internal marketing research

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where they cite multiple attributes.

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Q.

You devote some time in your

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Declaration to this distinction between

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features and sub-features, correct?

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A.

Um-hum.

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Q.

I believe that you characterize

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the patents at issue in this case, the

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patents and features for the three utility

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patents, the '163, the '915, the '381, as

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relating to sub-features, correct?

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A.

I did mention -- I did refer them

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as sub-features, not to say

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sub-sub-sub-features.

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asked me, for example, whether ability to

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listen to music or ability to look at

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pictures, whether they drive demand.

Just a minute ago, you

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Even

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those are a sub-feature.

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defined patents are kind of such a granular

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level, it is like sub-sub-sub-sub-features.

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Q.

So the narrowly

Is having a clock on a smartphone

a sub-feature, in your view?

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A.
that.

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11:23AM

It depends on how consumers view

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what consumers view --

I didn't see any research in terms of

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Q.

What about --

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A.

-- in terms of a clock.

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Q.

Sorry.

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A.

Yes.

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Q.

I'm going to try hard not to cut

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you off.

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Are you done?

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As between a world clock -- do

you know what a world clock is?
A.

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Just one that shows different

time zones in different -- okay.

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world clock as distinct from an ordinary

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clock, do you have a view as to whether the

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world clock would be a sub-feature of the

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phone?

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A.

Correct.

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As between use of a

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Q.

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Again, it would depend on how

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are things that are, like in the smartphone

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category, connectivity, ease of use, these --

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if you want, you can use the term

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"mega-attributes."

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Things like, does it have a clock

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or not, these are not as big features but you

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can call them features in terms of whether it

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has a clock or not.

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Whether it has -- what

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else could a phone have?

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that sort of most clocks have are some

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functional features of that product.

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Q.

All these things

Do you have a view as to whether

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a patented feature of a multi-touch phone can

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ever be the primary driver of demand?

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A.

It depends what that patented

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feature is.

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Q.

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As you sit here today, are you

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able to think of such a feature that could in

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fact constitute a primary driver of demand

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for a multi-touch smartphone?

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MR. WATSON:

Hang on one second.

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Can you clarify something?

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prior question you referred to "the"

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primary driver of demand.

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In your

In your

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second question, you said "a" primary

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driver of demand.

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you want her to speak to?

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MR. HUNG:

Which of those do

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I will restate the

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question.

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Q.

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As you sit here today, are you

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able to think of a feature that could

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constitute the primary driver of demand for a

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smartphone?

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A.

For a patent feature?

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Q.

Correct.

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A.

I'm not aware of any patent

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feature that might drive the demand.

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I do research, maybe I was given or I do my

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own research, maybe there is.

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what is all the patent features, because I

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looked only at those three patents.

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don't know --

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Q.

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But if

I don't know

So I

And I understand there was a

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limitation on what you reviewed or did not

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review in the month that you have worked on

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this case.

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can you conceptualize, can you think of a

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patented feature that would constitute the

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My question is with respect to,

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primary driver of demand for a smartphone?

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A.

At this point, I can't really.

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I

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mean, I can't say for -- this is going out of

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the smartphone category, but let's say if

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pharmaceutical company comes up with a new

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drug that cures cancer and then patents that,

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I can see that drives demand for that

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company.

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I cannot right now from the top

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of my head think of a similar thing in a

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smartphone that is patented and it

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corresponds to kind of curing cancer.

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Q.

Part of today's

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exercise, again, is understanding what your

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opinions are, what your opinions aren't, what

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work you have done and what work you haven't

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done.

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Let's be clear.

Did you conduct any research with

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respect to running a study with respect to

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determining what the primary patented feature

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would be that drives demand for a smartphone?

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A.

I haven't done my own primary

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research in the context of like collecting

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data and doing something like a conjoint.

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start again.

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Did you speak with anyone at

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Samsung in preparing your opinion for this

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case?

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A.

No.

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Q.

Did you speak with anyone at

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Apple in preparing your opinions for this

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case?

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A.

No.

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Q.

Did you ask to speak to anyone at

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Samsung in preparing your opinions for this

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case?

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A.

No.

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Q.

Did you speak with any consumers

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in preparing your opinions for this case?

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A.

I didn't do any primary research.

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Q.

Did you ask anyone whether the

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patents and features in the '163 patent was a

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factor in their purchase of a smartphone?

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A.

No, because if -- unless you do a

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study, one person's opinion wouldn't matter

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in any case.

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plus I wasn't even allowed to ask.

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not public information, I guess.

Wouldn't be a scientific --

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This is

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Q.

Samsung's -- the fact that the

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jury found at least for some products Samsung

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infringes the '163 patent, you believe is a

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confidential matter?

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A.

The infringement information is

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out, I think.

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discuss the details of the case.

Unless I'm

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conducting on -- in the context of the case,

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my own research, I wouldn't discuss it with

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people.

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But obviously, I wouldn't

Plus it is kind of difficult to

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differentiate what is public information,

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what is not at this -- it is more cautious to

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err on the conservative side and not to talk

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about it.

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Q.

Do you have any empirical

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evidence that consumers were not driven to

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purchase Samsung products because of the

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infringing technology relating to the '163,

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the '381 and the '915 patents?

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A.

There was no empirical evidence

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in everything I reviewed that links the

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patented features to demand except for an

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attempt by the Hauser study, and we can

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discuss that, combined with my expertise in

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decision making and all the frameworks that

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were verified in many different contexts,

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which show us patterns in terms of how

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consumers behave in such markets, like they

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don't go through these very granular-level

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features and then these very granular

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features driving their demand.

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The totality

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of that analysis made me to opinionate the

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way I did.

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Q.

Did you perform any Internet

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research in preparing your opinions for this

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case?

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A.

No.

I didn't do Internet

research in terms of to base my opinion on.
Q.

Did you do any research in terms

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11:37AM
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of periodicals, newspapers, magazines,

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articles?

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A.

Not in terms of linking the

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patented features to -- there is -- there

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wouldn't be that kind of research out there.

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Q.

Did you do any research on the

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Internet to determine whether in fact

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customers even liked the features patented in

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the '915, '381 and '163 patents?
A.

11:38AM

Well, everything I relied on in

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terms of the opinions expressed are already

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in Exhibit 2, so it is constrained by those.

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Q.

Were you given a set of materials

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to rely on in this case?
A.

11:38AM

I asked them to send me all the

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relevant marketing research documents, like

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everything, so I had basically everything.

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had given -- I was given declarations,

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reports, like I read Hauser report as well as

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Vince Declaration.

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Again, they are listed in

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Exhibit 2.

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Did you feel it was important or

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unimportant to do any Internet searching to

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determine whether consumers liked the

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patented features or not?

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Q.

I

A.

I did, for example, background

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research in terms of not to opinionate on

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this, but to familiarize myself with the

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terms like Android platform, et cetera.

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it was just that kind of -- so I know the

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terms that are used in all these forums.

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level, people making, aha, this must be with

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a high price.

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am talking about.

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Q.

So that's the kind of thing I

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Let me quickly turn to

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paragraph 46 of your Declaration.

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first line of paragraph 46 you state,

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"Consequently, the consumer research

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available from Apple and Samsung has been

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conducted in a manner that it will rarely, if

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ever, be possible to link a specific patent

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of the types at issue here to a feature

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attribute contained in the consumer research,

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especially in a manner that would reasonably

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permit one to conclude that the patents have

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any impact on consumer demand."

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In the

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Did I read that correctly?

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A.

Yes, you read it correctly.

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Q.

In your view, is it possible to

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perform consumer research that would link a

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specific patent of the types at issue here to

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a feature attribute contained?

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A.

What I have seen in the research

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done, it wasn't done.

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be done.

Hypothetically, it can

It could, but one needs to be

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extremely difficult -- extremely careful.
Q.

Did you run any tests to check or

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determine whether the features excluded in

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Hauser's conjoint survey bias the estimates?

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A.

No, I haven't done any, you know,

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primary research to test Hauser's results.

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That was Wind's job.

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Q.

Your report -- I understand that

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you are adopting Dr. Wind's opinions.

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Declaration does not include

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characterizations, for lack of a better word,

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of how one should have run the Hauser

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conjoint study, correct?

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Your

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A.

Can you repeat that?

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Q.

Sure.

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Your report does not specifically

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include suggested improvements to

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Dr. Hauser's conjoint study separate and

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apart from your adoption of Dr. Wind's

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opinions?

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A.

No.

My report itself doesn't

cover it.

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Q.

Do you know who Art Sukumar is?

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A.

I heard it was one of the

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witnesses, but I don't know.

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4

Q.

12:34PM

Had you heard of him before your

involvement in this case?

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A.

No.

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Q.

You don't know whether he is an

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academic or a --

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A.

I don't know.

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Q.

-- statistician or economist?

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A.

He is not one of the usual

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players for me, people like Russ or John or

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Jerry.

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Q.

Do you know whether he performed

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a conjoint study analysis for Samsung in this

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case?

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A.

I don't know.

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Q.

You don't know one way or the

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other?

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A.

No.

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Q.

So I take it that you didn't

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review any expert report that Dr. Sukumar

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might have done in this case?

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A.

No, I haven't reviewed a report

from him.
Q.

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12:35PM

If Dr. Sukumar's -- strike that.

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Q.

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proposition.

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your qualifications.

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I am asking just as a general
I understand you are qualified,

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As a general proposition, is it

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true that the demand curve can be

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characterized as a willingness-to-pay curve?

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9

MR. WATSON:

Objection.

Asked

02:29PM

and answered.

02:29PM

A.

There is a correspondence to it

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if willingness to pay is correctly defined

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and captured.

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Q.

That's my answer.

Earlier, we talked about this

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concept of transactional data.

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this concept of secondary research.

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recall that?

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A.

Yes.

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Q.

I had asked you, when you don't

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have public surveys that give you granular

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data, don't you typically perform your own

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primary research, when writing your academic

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papers, as an example.

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discussion?

02:30PM

A.

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25

You mentioned
Do you

Do you recall that

We talked about that you can

have -- if you don't have transactional data,

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you don't have any other data, and you have a

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specific question that can be answered by you

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collecting your own data, you can do so.

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Q.

And that's exactly what I was

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going to ask you.

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surveys and you don't have secondary data,

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transactional data, one commonly or

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frequently does perform your own primary

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research to get the granular data that one

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might need, right?

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When you don't have public

MR. WATSON:

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A.

02:30PM

ambiguous.

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Vague and

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02:30PM

Again, it depends.

Because in

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some contexts, it might be not possible.

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some contexts, it is possible.

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define the exact context, whether it is

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doable or not.

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Q.

In

We have to

Here, you did not conduct your

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02:30PM

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own primary research, I believe you stated in

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part due to time, correct?

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A.

That's correct.

I haven't done

any primary research.
MR. HUNG:

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02:31PM

Thank you for your

time, Dr. Erdem.

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THE WITNESS:

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

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concludes today's deposition.

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time is 2:31 p.m.; we are off the

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record.

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Thank you.

02:31PM

This

02:31PM
The

(Whereupon, at 2:31 p.m., the

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Examination of this Witness was

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concluded.)

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__________________________
TULIN ERDEM

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Subscribed and sworn to before me
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this _____ day of ________, 2012.

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__________________________
NOTARY PUBLIC

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

02:31PM