Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1020

Administrative Motion to File Under Seal Documents Under Seal Re Apples Opposition To Samsungs Motion For Summary Judgment filed by Apple Inc.. (Attachments: #1 Proposed Order, #2 Declaration Of Jason R. Bartlett In Support Of Apples Opposition To Samsungs Motion For Summary Judgment, #3 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 8, #4 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 9, #5 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 10, #6 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 11, #7 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 17, #8 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 18, #9 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 19, #10 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 23, #11 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 26, #12 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 30, #13 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 31, #14 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 32, #15 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 53, #16 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 54, #17 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 55, #18 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 57, #19 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 58, #20 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 59, #21 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 60, #22 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 61, #23 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 62, #24 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 64, #25 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 67, #26 Bartlett Decl. Ex. 80)(Jacobs, Michael) (Filed on 6/1/2012)

Exhibit 61

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

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APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

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Case No.
11-cv-01846-LHK

Plaintiff,
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v.
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SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
LTD., a Korean business
entity; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
AMERICA, INC., a New York
corporation; SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,
LLC, a Delaware limited
liability company,
Defendants.
C O N F I D E N T I A L
A T T O R N E Y S'
E Y E S
O N L Y
O U T S I D E
C O U N S E L
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D.
Washington, D.C.
Saturday, September 17, 2011
9:30 a.m.

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Job No. 41965

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Reporter: Linda S. Kinkade, RDR, CRR, RMR, CSR
Videographer: Conway Barker
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

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The following is the videotaped deposition
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of BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D. held at the offices
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of:
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Morrison & Foerster
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2000 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
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Washington, DC 20005
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Taken pursuant to applicable Rules of Civil
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Procedure, before Linda S. Kinkade, Registered
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Diplomate Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
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Registered Professional Reporter, Registered Merit
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Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter (CA), and
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Notary Public, in and for the District of Columbia.
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APPEARANCES:
On Behalf of Plaintiff APPLE INC., a
California corporation:
MICHAEL A. JACOBS, ESQUIRE
DEOK KEUN AHN, ESQUIRE
Morrison & Foerster
425 Market Street
San Francisco, California 94105

On Behalf of Defendant SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
CO.:
ERIC HUANG, ESQUIRE
AARON KAUFMAN, ESQUIRE
Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan
51 Madison Avenue
22nd Floor
New York, New York 10010

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INDEX OF EXAMINATION
EXAMINATION OF BENJAMIN BEDERSON, Ph.D.
BY MICHAEL A. JACOBS, ESQUIRE
8

PAGE

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS
(Attached to transcript)
NO.
BATES RANGE DESCRIPTION
PAGE
Exhibit 211 N/A
Source Code
19
using System
Exhibit 212 N/A
Source Code
19
Email.cs
Exhibit 213 N/A
Source Code
19
ShellForm.cs
Exhibit 214 N/A
Source Code
138
Landscape.cs
Exhibit 215 BEDERSON Email
161
0000132
correspondence
BEDERSON from J.
0000134
SanGiovanni to
B. Bederson,
A. Karlson
sent
08/23/2004
Exhibit 216 BEDERSON Email
168
0000244
correspondence
from J.
SanGiovanni to
B. Bederson
sent
08/17/2005
Exhibit 217 BEDERSON Email
172
0000008
correspondence
from B.
Bederson to J.
SanGiovanni
sent
08/25/2005
Exhibit 218 BEDERSON Email
174
0000150
correspondence
from J.
SanGiovanni to
B. Bederson
sent
09/22/2004

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS (continued)
NO.
BATES RANGE DESCRIPTION
PAGE
Exhibit 219 BEDERSON Email
174
0000157
correspondence
from J.
SanGiovanni to
B. Bederson
sent
08/25/2004
Exhibit 220 BEDERSON Email
174
0000236
correspondence
BEDERSON from J.
0000237
SanGiovanni to
B. Bederson
sent
05/17/2005
Exhibit 221 N/A
Exhibit A,
184
Abstract
AppLens and
LaunchTile
Exhibit 222 N/A
Behaviour &
204
Information
Technology
Exhibit 223 N/A
Photograph:
218
iPAQ File
Explorer
Exhibit 224 N/A
Photograph:
227
iPAQ Pocket PC

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PROCEEDINGS
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning
of tape 1 in the deposition of Benjamin Bederson
in the matter of Apple, Incorporated versus
Samsung Electronics Company, Limited, et al., in
the United States District Court for the
Northern District of California, San Jose
Division, case number 11-CV-01846-LHK.
This deposition is being held at
Morrison & Foerster, 2000 Pennsylvania Avenue,
northwest, Washington, D.C. on September 17th,
2011 at approximately 9:36.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and
state whom you represent.
MR. JACOBS: Michael Jacobs,
Morrison & Foerster, for plaintiff Apple.
MR. HUANG: Eric Huang of Quinn
Emanuel for the witness and Samsung. With me is
Aaron Kaufman, also with Quinn Emanuel.
MR. JACOBS: And with me is Matt Ahn.
Do you want to put your voices on video?
MR. KAUFMAN: Aaron Kaufman, Quinn
Emanuel.
MR. AHN: And Matthew Ahn, Morrison &
Forester.

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VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter is
Linda Kinkade. The video camera operator is
Conway Barker, both in association with TSG.
Would you please swear in the witness and
we can begin.
BENJAMIN BEDERSON, Ph.D.
Being first duly sworn, testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Good morning, Dr. Bederson.
A. Good morning.
Q. Have you had your deposition taken
before?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. In what context?
A. A few different contexts.
Q. So you've had your deposition taken
several times?
A. Yes.
Q. In any other patent cases?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you recall? Which cases?
A. I was a fact witness for one case that

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was for -- I was working with Hillcrest Labs
that was opposed to Nintendo, and I was an
expert witness for Yahoo! against girafa, and I
was an expert witness for GemStar and -Q. Which piece of the GemStar litigation
was that?
A. It was a -- I'm trying to remember the
opposition. I don't recall. And there is
another one I'm not -- I believe there is one
more that I'm not -- one or two more that I'm
not remembering right now.
Q. Did the work that you did that's
reflected in your declaration in this case, the
LaunchTile and XNav, did that figure in any of
the previous cases that you were involved in?
A. No, it did not.
Q. In the two -- I think you mentioned
two cases in which you were retained as an
expert witness, Yahoo! and GemStar. Is that -did I recall what you said correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you testify at trial in either of
those cases?
A. In GemStar I testified in an
arbitration hearing.

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engage people that only speak one language to
collaboratively work together with
machine-translation systems to translate text
from one language to another language.
Q. In your declaration you talk about a
physics-based metaphors for user interface
design. Do you recall that? It's at paragraph
31.
A. I do.
Q. So what is the relationship between
these physics-based metaphors and LaunchTile?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: The idea of
physics-based metaphors is that, if you can
build an interactive system, user interface, on
a computer that has interaction characteristics
that are similar to the way objects behave in
the real world, then we expect that they will be
easier for a user to predict how they will
behave and to use them.
So the connection to LaunchTile is that, for
example, there may be others, but, for example, if I
want to move this piece of paper in the real world,
I can use my thumb by pressing down, moving it, and

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letting go, and it follows my thumb (indicating).
And on LaunchTile it moves Zones in the same
way. You press down, you drag the Zone with you,
and you let go.
There are also physics metaphors, things -behaviors -- in the natural world where objects have
a natural -- not natural -- the structure of the
physical system results in there being a location
that they naturally gravitate to. In fact we even
use that word, "gravitate," because it's a physics
metaphor.
So, for example, if I pick this thing up and
I let go, gravity is not going to let it get stuck
in the middle. It will go to the end. If I move it
all the way more and let it go, it naturally goes
there. So this object has two natural positions,
and that's kind of a basic characteristic of physics
(indicating).
MR. HUANG: Can we let the record
reflect he was demonstrating on part of the
table?
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Anything else?
A. So, similarly, motivated by those
kinds of principles, the snapping feature in

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LaunchTile is motivated by the idea that, if
there are some places that are convenient for
the interface to go to, then you should make the
interface naturally take you to those places and
not let you get stuck in inconvenient places.
Q. So you published an article recently,
"The Promise of Zoomable User Interfaces."
Mark this as the next in order.
(Exhibit No. 222 marked for
identification.)
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. The Promise of Zoomable User
Interfaces by Benjamin B. Bederson, 2011, Taylor
& Francis. What was this published in?
A. This was published in a journal named
Behaviour & Information Technology.
Q. In 2011?
A. Yes.
Q. On page 4 you have a discussion of
Desert Fog citing Jul and Furnas. Desert Fog
labels a phenomena that you describe as allowing
users to fly through the space going absolutely
anywhere including deep into the spaces between
objects. Do you see that?
A. No, actually. Sorry. Where are you?

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Q. It's on the right-hand column of -it's such a vivid image I thought it might just
jump from the page. The right-hand column of
page 4, second paragraph.
A. Yes, I see this.
Q. So just to maybe start a little bit
earlier, different zoomable user interfaces have
also had various navigation mechanisms, which
are ways for users to move through the space.
Again, there is a trade-off between flexibility
and usability. Some interfaces allow users to
fly through the space going absolutely anywhere,
including deep into the spaces between objects,
resulting in some researchers labeling this
phenomenon Desert Fog, Jul and Furnas. Then you
say, very few other applications let a user
navigate beyond the actual content.
Can you explain the contrast you were
drawing there between ZUIs and other applications?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: Sure. So if we continue
reading this paragraph, it describes this idea
of not letting you navigate between the actual
content. I believe it says, almost every
document browser and editor limits navigation to

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the available content with the notable exception
of Microsoft Excel's scroll bar arrows, Apple
numbers, and Google -- I'm sorry -- with the
notable exception of Microsoft Excel's scroll
bar arrows. Apple numbers and Google
spreadsheet, on the other hand, do limit
navigation. On the other hand, some interfaces
allow you only to click on objects to zoom into
them and click on a zoom out button to zoom out,
making it impossible to get lost, but also
giving less control over exactly where you look.
So the point of this paragraph was to
describe that there are some applications that let
the user navigate in space possibly -- navigating
can be simple scrolling or it could be this kind of
zooming navigation, which is a little bit more
uncommon, or it could be 3-D navigation in a 3-D
world.
Sorry. I was describing that sometimes you
can navigate to a place where there is no content.
If there is no content, then you're kind of in a
place that essentially -- typically -- represented
with an empty screen. And that was a concern
because that would make a user feel disoriented
since there is nothing on the screen.

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And I said that it was more common for
applications to stop a user from navigating to a
place where there was no content, although it
occurred, both in widespread applications like Excel
and in many ZUIs, in at least those.
Q. So the basic contrast you were drawing
was between those ZUIs that are flexible but
haven't addressed this problem of getting lost
in Desert Fog, and most applications which do
constrain you to the space that's filled by
content. Is that -- am I capturing the essence
of your paragraph correctly?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: The paragraph said -well, it didn't say "most." It said there were
few applications that let you move to a place
where there is no content, although I did
describe some, and many constrained you to
navigating only within available, visible
content.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. And that -- but you were describing
that, as of 2011, there remains this problem in
ZUIs of flying through the space going

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absolutely anywhere this phenomenon labeled
Desert Fog, correct?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: No. This was -- there
was no date here that specified that -- when the
idea of constraining ZUIs to content happened.
So this paragraph does not imply that, as of
2011, there were no mechanisms to constrain
ZUIs.
In fact that last sentence explains ZUIs
that do constrain you to content, where it says,
on the other hand, some interfaces allow you
only to click on objects to zoom into them,
which means we must be talking about zooming
interfaces, and click on a zoom button to zoom
out making it impossible to get lost.
So there is nothing here about when there
were interfaces that -- zooming interfaces -that did or did not stop you from getting lost.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. And on page 5, under "Applications,"
you refer to a chart, Table 1, shows a selection
of zoomable application, only true ZUIs are
shown. It captures a range of what people have

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been using zooming for and makes apparent the
range of approaches that people have taken with
regard to layout, flexibility and navigation.
You go on to say, it is also clear that
the essential problem of getting lost in Desert
Fog has not been consistently avoided.
Furthermore, it's clear there is no consistency
in the mechanisms that are used to navigate
through space.
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. So as of 2011 did you regard the
essential problem of getting lost in Desert Fog
as a -- as something that was still apparent in
zoomable user interfaces available on the market
today?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: I think this paragraph
states that, as of 2011, some zoomable
interfaces had that problem, that a user could
get lost in Desert Fog, but it -- so...
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. And how do you -- looking at your
chart, how do you read the chart to identify

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whether the Desert Fog problem has been
addressed in a particular ZUI?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: There is not anything in
this chart that explicitly addresses which of
these applications prevent getting lost in
Desert Fog or not.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. So if you look at the more modern,
maybe the second page of Table 1 -- let me back
up.
Is it the case, then, that the educated -maybe sort of your peers in the field -- would
understand from this chart which ones still had
the Desert Fog problem?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I don't think there is
anything in this chart that labels these
different applications as preventing Desert Fog
or not, so a peer might analyze and come up with
their own interpretation of it, but I don't
think it's represented in this chart.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. So if you look at the ZUIs that you
listed as from 2008 on, do you have a

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categorization in your own mind of which of
those represent the Desert Fog problem?
A. No, I do not.
Q. So I guess I have to just press you a
little bit because your article says it's
apparent from this chart or it is clear that the
essential problem of getting lost in Desert Fog
has not been consistently avoided. Do you see
that?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. I guess I should ask you, why is it
clear from -- why is it clear that the essential
problem of getting lost in Desert Fog has not
been consistently avoided?
A. So just to be clear, the way I read
this paragraph in question, the first paragraph
of section 2.3, is it describes Table 1. The
first part of the paragraph explicitly refers to
Table 1. And then this sentence does not
explicitly refer to Table 1. It just says, it
is also clear that the essential problem of
getting lost in Desert Fog has not been
consistently avoided. So the connection in that
sentence to Table 1 is ambiguous.

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However, I don't think each of these
applications is described in this paper anywhere
else, so looking at this paper now, I think a reader
might be able to use some of their knowledge about
the way navigation works that is not described in
this paper and possibly infer which of these
applications enabled a user to get lost in Desert
Fog or not. But as I read this now, I don't think
it is actually clear, so I would say that was a -that sentence could have been written better.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. So if you're presenting this paper at
a conference and somebody raises his hand at the
back of the room and says, Bederson, why is it
so clear, can you defend this statement in your
paper that it is clear that this problem of
getting lost in Desert Fog has not been
consistently avoided, what would your answer be?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: Well, I think this table
does not make it clear by itself. I would have
to look at the rest of the paper to see if I
made any further clarification of that, and I
don't recall if I did or not.

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BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Just as you look at some of the
applications, the ZUIs that are listed on the
table, do you regard the Apple iPhone, year
2007, but the iPhone you're referring to, I
guess, is the 2010 version of it, do you regard
that as having resolved the problem of getting
lost in Desert Fog?
A. So in this particular -- in this table
I'm to read, the thing that comes closest to the
Desert Fog issue is the right-most column that
talks about navigation mechanism for zooming,
and for the Apple iPhone it says, tap to zoom
in, physical button to zoom out.
So I think it's probably referring to the
home screen application icons where you tap on one
of those application icons and it has a zooming
transition. It zooms in to launch the application
icon and you can press the hardware button at the
bottom of the device to zoom out.
So at least in that case it solves -- that
interface solves the Desert Fog problem as
described. So this is a case where, with some
external knowledge, you could interpret this to
understand that, but it was not explicit in this --

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not fully explicit in this table.
MR. JACOBS: Could you just give us
like three minutes to make sure -- oh, actually,
we need to go one more demo, right? We figured
out how to move the blue highlighter in XNav.
And so if we can get you over by the video to
just demonstrate that mode, that would be great.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 4:37.
(Brief interruption.)
VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at
4:39.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Dr. Bederson, we've given you again
the Sony Vaio with the XNav on it that we were
demonstrating earlier in the deposition, and
we've now learned how to move the blue
highlighter into the center of the screen and
illustrate the case where the blue highlighter
is between -- it ends up between email headers
when the stylus or the finger is lifted from the
screen; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you demonstrate that for us?
A. Actually right now that highlight is

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at the bottom of the screen. Would you like me
to move it to the middle of the screen?
Q. Yes, please.
A. So now the highlight is in the middle
of the screen. If I drag -- tap and then drag
the email list so that the two emails both
overlap the highlight and I let go, then the
emails will snap so that one of them ends up
being completely underneath the highlight.
Q. In this demonstration, which is the
device that you had loaded with the -- with
XNav, what are the -- what are the email headers
populated with? Is it a notional screen of
email headers or were there actual emails that
were received on an email client on this device?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: So these email headers
in this XNav software were stored as images of
the headers on the disc and they were loaded off
of a disc. So they were essentially
precalculated as email headers. They did come
from actual emails.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. But if one were to -- just to

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underline the point, if one were to click on or
otherwise seek to get the underlying text of the
email on this device, the device does not have
the full email underneath the header, correct?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form of
the question.
THE WITNESS: If you tap on one of
these email, I believe -- so, I guess, if you
press this button, it opens up a special kind of
menu, and, if you press the plus button, then it
will open up a representation of an email.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Is that the same email for every
header?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So it's kind of a -- this is really a
prototype of what it could -- what this device
could do if you figured out how to get an email
client to create images for each header, store
them in the database, and link them to the
underlying message, correct?
A. I think you just proposed a possible
architecture for implementing an email system.
So what I would say is this is a prototype that
demonstrates how email can work in this

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide

environment.
Q. With a prepopulated database of images
representing email headers and a single email
text, correct?
MR. HUANG: Objection to the form.
THE WITNESS: I would say with a
hard-coded set of email headers and a single
content of email.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. Thank you.
MR. JACOBS: Let's go off the record
again.
VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 4:43.
(Proceedings recessed.)
VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at
4:45.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. So a couple other devices were given
to us by Quinn Emanuel, counsel for Samsung, and
I want to just check with you if you know
anything about the providence of those devices
and the appearance that one sees when one opens
them up.
So we have this iPAQ here that we
received, and we've taken a picture of the

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Confidential Attorneys' Eyes Only
Outside Counsel
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that device or a different device.
MR. HUANG: We can represent that that
is the device that Professor Bederson provided
to us.
BY MR. JACOBS:
Q. And did you load -- were you the
person who loaded XNav on it?
A. I think I was at some point in the
past but not for the purposes of this
litigation.
Q. So actually you anticipated where I
was going. Was this something that you had on
the shelf in your -- in a section for LaunchTile
that happened to have had LaunchTile loaded on
it from the 2004 or 2005 period?
A. It was in a box with stuff, not just
for LaunchTile.
Q. But it -A. And I pulled it out and it had
LaunchTile on it already -- XNav already on it.
Q. It had XNav on it. And, therefore, to
the best of your recollection, the XNav that's
on it actually dates back from the development
and Microsoft's interaction period that we were
discussing today, correct?

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A. Correct.
MR. JACOBS: I think we're done.
Thank you.
MR. HUANG: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
deposition of Dr. Bederson. Off the record at
4:57 and it consists of five tapes.
(Proceedings concluded.)
//
(Signature having not been waived, the
deposition of BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D.
concluded at 4:57 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER
NOTARY PUBLIC

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I, Linda S. Kinkade, RDR, CRR, RMR, CSR,
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the notarial officer before whom the foregoing
5
proceedings were taken, do hereby certify that the
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foregoing transcript is a true and correct record of
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the proceedings; that said proceedings were taken by
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me stenographically, to the best of my ability, and
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thereafter reduced to typewriting; and that I am
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neither counsel for or related to, nor employed by
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any of the parties to this case and have no
12
interest, financial or otherwise, in its outcome.
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IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
14
hand and affixed my notarial seal this 17th day of
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September 2011.
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_______________________________
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Linda S. Kinkade
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NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR
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THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
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My commission expires: July 14, 2012
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Page 225
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT
I, BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON, Ph.D., do hereby
acknowledge that I have read and examined the
foregoing testimony, and the same is a true, correct
and complete transcription of the testimony given by
me, with the exception of the noted corrections, if
any, appearing on the attached errata sheet signed
by me, to the best of my knowledge and belief.

_____________ ______________________________
(Date)
(Signature)

Subscribed and sworn to before me this _____
day of ______, 20__.
My commission expires __________.
Notary Public ____________________

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