Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1381

Unredacted Declaration of Brett Arnold ISO Samsung's MSJ by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, (Dkt. Nos. 930, 943) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1 to Arnold, # 2 Exhibit 2 to Arnold, # 3 Exhibit 3 to Arnold, # 4 Exhibit 5 to Arnold, # 5 Exhibit 10 to Arnold, # 6 Exhibit 11 to Arnold, # 7 Exhibit 12 to Arnold, # 8 Exhibit 15 to Arnold)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/26/2012) Modified text on 7/27/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT 3

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 1
1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

2
3
4
5

APPLE INC., a California
corporation,

6

Plaintiff,
7

vs.

CASE NO.

11-cv-01846-LHK

8

9

10

11

12
13

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.,
LTD., a Korean business
entity; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
AMERICA,INC., a New York
corporation; SAMSUNG
TELECOMMUNICATIONS AMERICA,
LLC, a Delaware limited
liability company,
Defendants.
____________________________/

14
15
16
17

H I G H L Y
C O N F I D E N T I A L
O U T S I D E C O U N S E L O N L Y

18
19
20
21

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN IVE
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 1, 2011

22
23
24
25

BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR, RPR, CCRR, CLR
CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
JOB NO. 43920
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 50
1

Q

And in your view, is -- is that construction

2

or design of the -- the bezel more important to the

3

design of the -- of the first iPhone than the home

4

button in terms of an overall feeling and appearance

5

that the -- that the design creates?

6

A

Yeah, I'm not comfortable answering that

7

question, because I think to -- to answer your

8

question properly, I would actually need to make

9

models and experiment with changing those.

10
11

So I

actually don't know.
Q

One element that you did mention as being

12

important, in your view, was the display and it being

13

centered.

14

A

Right.

15

Q

If you could please tell me what you mean by

16

that.

17

A

Well, the -- the actual display as a

18

component is obviously important.

19

great innovations here, of course, was that it not

20

only gave you video sort of output, but that it was

21

that you touched the display.

22

primary means of -- of interaction.

23

It's -- one of the

So that was your

And so the display, as we thought about it

24

from a design point of view, was an important

25

component, and so its position, relative to the
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 51
1

perimeter of the product, was also important.

2

So we have it centered with equal dimension

3

on the -- I could -- if I call it the forehead, that's

4

the area above the display; and also the chin is

5

another way that we would talk about the area below

6

the display.

Those are the same size.

7

The vertical -- the -- the vertical columns

8

on either side with the -- you know, the black mask

9

are also the same size, so it is symmetrically

10

positioned within the product.

11

And as a handheld product that you would use

12

in this way, that seemed -- that seemed important to

13

us.

14
15

Q

And you began your answer by saying that the

display as a component is obviously important.

16

If you could please tell me, what do you mean

17

by that?

18

important?

19

A

Why was the display as a component

Well, if you didn't -- if you did not have

20

that component, that element within the design, the

21

phone wouldn't function very well, as it would be very

22

difficult to use.

23

And I described that what was particularly

24

significant in the case of the first iPhone was that

25

the display was combined with a multi-touch panel, a
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 52
1

multi-touch sensing panel, and so that it was also

2

your primary means of input, so that you would relate

3

to the display in multiple ways:

4

to see who is calling, that you could look at

5

photographs, you could look at video, you could look

6

at your address book, but then you could directly

7

manipulate the information that you saw on the

8

display.

9

Q

That you would look

And did all that, that you've described about

10

the display, have an influence on -- on the design of

11

the -- the external appearance of the -- of the phone?

12

A

What that did was make it very clear in our

13

minds that the display was important, and we wanted to

14

develop a product that featured and deferred to the

15

display.

16

So we -- some of our early discussions about

17

the iPhone centered on this idea of, as I mentioned

18

earlier, this -- you know, this infinity pool, this

19

pond, where the display would sort of magically

20

appear.

21

Q

You mentioned that as part of this process,

22

that it became clear that the product, namely the

23

iPhone we're talking about here, would defer to the

24

display.

25

What do you mean by that phrase, "defer to
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 53
1
2

the display"?
A

I think that's another way of saying that we

3

did not want to develop a design.

4

designs that we explored, none of them we explored did

5

anything to -- to undermine or detract or distract

6

from the importance of the -- the display.

7

Q

In any of the

And was part of the reason for that that

8

the -- in the context of a -- of the iPhone, that the

9

display screen itself was the main way in which the

10
11
12

user interacted with the device?
A

No.
When we are at these early stages in design,

13

when we're trying to establish some of the -- you

14

know, the primary goals -- often we'll talk about, you

15

know, the -- the story for the product -- we're

16

talking about perception.

17

feel about the product, not in a physical sense, but

18

in a -- you know, in a perceptual sense.

We're talking about how you

19

And so it's just -- it was very clear

20

having -- just how important and in some ways magical

21

this display and the -- the new user interface was,

22

that we wanted to -- to, from a perceptual point of

23

view, create a design and a design story, create an

24

appearance that would in some ways augment that.

25

So I mentioned the way that when the display
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 54
1

switch is on, that just feeling magical, feeling

2

surprising, we're talking about a number of years ago.

3

This may now seem -- we got used to products that do

4

this.

5

seemed -- this was very new, and it felt there was

6

real opportunity to develop a design story based on

7

those sorts of preoccupations.

8
9

Q

But at the earliest stages of this design, this

Regardless of the -- the design intention

behind it, do you think, as a practical matter, the

10

fact that the display is the primary way that a user

11

interfaces with the -- the original iPhone means that

12

having a design that defers to the displays that you

13

mentioned means that there's less distractions for the

14

user in actually using the screen?

15

A

Can you make that a shorter question?

16

Q

Sure.

I can -- I can try that.

17

In response to my question, I was asking you

18

about the phrase that you've used, which is that you

19

didn't want a design that undermined or distracted

20

from the importance of the display, and you've also

21

used another phrase, which was that you have a design

22

that deferred to the display; do you recall generally

23

talking about that?

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

And I had asked one question about sort of
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 55
1

design intention that you've now already answered.

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

Now I wanted to ask a slightly different

4

question --

5

A

Right.

6

Q

-- which is:

As a practical matter, do you

7

think the fact that the display screen itself is -- is

8

the main point of interaction that a user has with the

9

original iPhone means that having a design that defers

10

to the display, as you've -- you've meant it or as

11

you've mentioned, means that the user is less

12

distracted from -- from that interaction with the

13

screen, just as a practical matter?

14

A

I think what we've found, given that overall

15

goal, was that there were -- there were many solutions

16

that we explored that met that -- that goal of -- of

17

elevating the display and creating that sort of

18

hierarchy.

19

And I think that the design that we chose,

20

based upon its appearance, was one of many that --

21

that there would be less distractions during use --

22

less visual distractions during use.

23

Q

So if I understand you correctly, the -- the

24

design solution that was actually chosen for the

25

iPhone that you've described, as a practical matter,
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 56
1

it does create less visual distractions for the user

2

when interfacing with the display?

3

A

Yes.

What I'm -- what I'm saying is that as

4

a consequence -- not as a goal, but as a consequence,

5

amongst the many other alternatives that we looked at,

6

I think that would be true.

7
8

Q

Have you read the -- the Walter Isaacson

biography of Steve Jobs?

9

A

I've read a couple of pages, yes.

10

Q

Were you interviewed for that book?

11

A

I was, yes.

12

Q

And do you recall about how many times you --

13

you were interviewed by Mr. Isaacson?

14

A

I recall we had one -- one interview I would

15

call a primary interview, and then we met on one other

16

occasion; and I think we may have had one telephone

17

conversation, but I'm not certain.

18
19

Q

So your best recollection is it was

approximately three times?

20

A

We -- well, your question was "interview," so

21

no.

22

you would, I think, probably characterize as an

23

interview; we met on one time when I showed him the

24

design studio, and then possibly we had a short

25

telephone conversation.

There was one time when we were -- we met in what

TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 57
1

Q

So in terms of the -- the number of times

2

where you had some type of oral communication with

3

Mr. Isaacson, whether in person or by phone, your best

4

recollection is that there were three of them?

5
6
7

A

No, my best recollection was there's two, and

there's a possibility of the third.
Q

And how certain do you feel about the -- the

8

third?

9

50 percent?

I mean, is it more than 50 percent?

10

A

I'd say it's 50/50.

11

Q

Less than

Right there on the edge.

12

Did you read the portion of Mr. Isaacson's

13

book where he talked about -- well, actually, let me

14

step back for a second.

15

There were terms or codes that were used for

16

different iterations of the potential design for the

17

very first iPhone that went something like P1, P2?

18

A

Yes.

19

Q

And do you recall that in one of those

20

earlier iterations of the iPhone display -- or excuse

21

me -- the iPhone design, that the front flat surface

22

had a rim that ran around the -- the display screen?

23

A

I'm sorry.

I'm slightly confused by -- so

24

this is a question that's discrete from Walter

25

Isaacson's book?
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 84
1

the -- the user to be able to pick up the -- the

2

tablet with one hand from underneath?

3

A

No, that wasn't a goal.

We -- we made the

4

observation that if that's something that we wanted to

5

enable, that meant that our exploration would be

6

concerned with the sorts of formal solutions that I

7

mentioned.

8

many of them.

9

Q

And there were -- there were -- there were

Well, then, I guess setting aside, then,

10

the -- the terminology about a goal -- maybe it's a

11

little easier that way.

12

In terms of the -- the final design for

13

the -- the first iPad, was there anything about the

14

design that, as a consequence of the design, made it

15

easier for the user to pick up with one hand from a --

16

from a flat table, for example?

17

A

Could you just clarify which iPad we're

18

talking about.

19

or the --

20

Q

The first iPad that actually went to market.

21

A

That went to market.

22

Is it the iPad in the -- the patents

Yes, it was one of the -- the many that we

23

explored that had the -- the rear surface developed

24

up.

25

In the case of the first iPad, the -- there
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 85
1

was a vertical wall that ran around the perimeter of

2

the product.

3

wall was -- I don't know how many millimeters, but was

4

a number of millimeters above a surface if you were to

5

rest it on a surface.

6

Q

But the bottom edge of that vertical

Whether or not it was the -- the goal of the

7

design of the second iPad, the iPad 2, was there

8

anything about the design in the iPad 2 that, as a

9

consequence of the design, made it easier for the user

10

to pick it up with one hand from a flat surface, such

11

as a table?

12

A

I'm sorry.

13

Q

Sure.

Could you repeat that.

It's basically the same question I was

14

asking before about the first iPad that went to

15

market.

16

A

Yes.

17

Q

Now I'm asking about the iPad 2.

So I'll

18

just restate the whole question, but just so you have

19

a sense of where I'm --

20

A

Yes.

21

Q

-- going with this.

22
23

So setting aside whether it was the goal or
not of the design --

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

-- as a consequence of the design that was
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 86
1

actually used for the iPad 2, was there anything about

2

that design that made it easier for the user to pick

3

up the iPad 2 from a flat surface, such as a table?

4

A

Yes.

I think the overall principle is

5

similar to the first iPad, even though the formal --

6

the -- the final definition is -- is different.

7

But the -- it's the same principle, which is

8

there is an edge that is essentially raised from

9

the -- the desktop, and that your fingers can go

10
11

underneath.
Q

Did you have any involvement in the -- the

12

design or the creation of the application icons for

13

the iPhone?

14

A

For the first iPhone?

15

Q

Right.

16

A

I recall Steve showing them to me during a

17

number of stages in development, and we had

18

discussions.

19

were, but I do recall seeing them.

20

Q

I don't recall what the discussions

Did you make any comments or have any input

21

into the -- the look of the icons or the -- the layout

22

of the icons for the first iPhone?

23

A

I recall being shown the work.

I recall

24

discussions about it, but I couldn't describe that as

25

input because I don't know.

I can't recall whether --

TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 87
1

I can't recall what I said, and I can't recall if

2

there was a consequence to anything that I said.

3

Q

Do you recall whether the shape of the icons

4

that you saw in the versions that Mr. Jobs showed you

5

were in the form of a rectangle with rounded corners?

6

A

I think -- yes, I think I recall the shape of

7

the icons, and that they were square with -- with

8

radii on each of the four -- four corners.

9

Q

And do you have any knowledge or information

10

as to what the source of that shape was?

11

words, where that shape came from?

In other

12

A

I -- I don't recall.

13

Q

Do you know whether that shape was based on

14

prior icon shapes?

15

A

I don't recall.

16

Q

Do you have any knowledge or information as

17

to the -- the source of the icon layout that was used

18

for the first iPhone; namely, that kind of grid

19

pattern?

20

A

21

No, I don't recall.
I think my involvement was very much Steve

22

showing me, This is the work that's being done, and --

23

and then I would assume with being -- asking my

24

opinion, but I don't recall that.

25

Q

Do you recall having any other communications
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 114
1

three-dimensional designer, I find that very difficult

2

to answer.

3
4
5
6
7
8

MR. ZELLER:

And so when you say

"difficult," does that mean you cannot answer it?
A

I cannot feel comfortable with -- that I've

answered your question well.
Q

Well, I'm trying to find out:

Are you saying

it's impossible to answer my question?

9

MR. JACOBS:

10
11

Q.

THE WITNESS:

Object to the form.
Could you ask me your -- your

question again.

12

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

Focusing your attention on

13

the -- the design that's shown here in Exhibit 1178,

14

all right, is there any interpretation of this design

15

that you have that would mean that this design shown

16

here in Exhibit 1178 is substantially the same as the

17

design of the front face of the first iPhone?

18

A

There is one interpretation that -- of -- of

19

this limited information that would make this

20

similar -- very similar to the first iPhone.

21

Q

I'm -- let's please mark as Exhibit 1179 a

22

one-page document which is a comparison of -- of three

23

phone designs.

24
25

(Document marked Exhibit 1179
for identification.)
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 115
1

THE WITNESS:

2

MR. ZELLER:

Thank you.
Q.

Do you recognize the design

3

of the -- the phone that's shown here on the far

4

right?

5
6
7
8
9

A

That could be a representation of the first

iPhone.
Q

Do you recognize the design that's shown here

in the middle on Exhibit 1179?
A

Again, that could be a representation, yes,

10

of the front elevation -- an orthographic

11

representation of the first -- the first iPhone.

12

Q

Comparing the designs that are shown here in

13

Exhibit 1179, do you believe that these three designs

14

we have here on this page are -- are basically and

15

essentially the same design to one another, or do you

16

believe that they are different?

17

A

I think there is an interpretation -- as we

18

said earlier, one of many.

19

here, there is an interpretation where there are many

20

elements that could be interpreted in the same way

21

between the phone that is on my left and then the two

22

that are on the -- on the right.

23

Q

But based on these lines

And by that, do you mean that there are --

24

there's an interpretation of these -- these designs,

25

these drawings that we have here -TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 116
1

A

Yes.

2

Q

-- these views that, from your view, make

3

them overall, in terms of their impression, to be

4

similar rather than different designs?

5

A

I'm sorry.

6

Q

Sure.

7

I'm just trying to make sure I

understand your answer.

8
9

Could you repeat that.

When you -- when you -- in your answer, when
you're talking about these --

10

A

Yes.

11

Q

-- a comparison between these designs --

12

A

Yes.

13

Q

-- overall, from their overall impression

14

that you see, based on the information that you have

15

here comparing these three designs, do you believe

16

that they create the overall same impression of

17

design, or would you consider them to be overall in

18

their impression to be different designs?

19

A

What I'm saying is that with limited

20

information, that there is an interpretation, based on

21

the information I have in front of me, that these

22

could feel like three very similar designs, or that

23

this one is very similar to -- if I interpret the two

24

on the right in the same way, that the one on the left

25

could feel very similar to the ones on the right.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 154
1
2

products that we're developing.
Q

As of the time that you began first working

3

on the iPhone design -- this first iPhone design, what

4

other manufacturer of mobile phones were you aware of?

5
6
7

A

Can you -- it would help me if you could

define what you mean by the word "aware of."
Q

Well, let me ask it this way:

I take it as

8

of the time when you started working on the -- the

9

design that resulted in the first iPhone design --

10

A

Yes.

11

Q

-- you had seen other mobile phones --

12

A

Yes.

13

Q

-- as of that time?

14

A

Yes, I had seen --

15

Q

Which ones do you remember seeing as of that

16

time?

17

A

I remember seeing a Motorola StarTAC.

I

18

remember a Sony Ericsson product.

19

remember the name -- you know, the model number of

20

that.

21

I'm afraid I can't

I remember a -- I remember a Nokia vaguely.
I think I was using a -- I think I was

22

personally using at the time a Motorola StarTAC.

23

What -- I can't recall the name.

24

from the StarTAC.

25

Q

It was developed

Was it the Razr?
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 155
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

A

Yes.

I think that was the product that I was

using.
Q

Anyone -- any others that you can remember

seeing as of that time?
A

Golly, I can't remember.

Yeah, this is five

years ago now.
Q

Let me show you what was previously marked as

8

Exhibit 8, which is a copy of United States Design

9

Patent 504,889.

10

And please let me know when you've

had a chance to take a look here at Exhibit 8.

11

A

Okay.

12

Q

First, do you recognize Exhibit 8 as a U.S.

13

design patent that you're a named inventor on?

14

A

I do.

15

Q

And did you actually contribute to this

16

design?

17

A

Yes, I did.

18

Q

In your view as an inventor of this design

19

shown here in the '889 design patent --

20

A

Yes.

21

Q

-- what was new or original about it as

22

compared to other designs that were in existence?

23

MR. JACOBS:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Objection; lacks foundation.
Could you ask me that question

more specifically, please.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 156
1
2
3

MR. ZELLER:
Q

Yeah, sure.

You understood, generally speaking, that to

obtain a design patent --

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

-- you have to have something that's new or

6

original about a design, compared to designs that are

7

already out there?

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

And in fact, you recall that when you -- you

10

signed papers --

11

A

Yes.

12

Q

-- as a design patent inventor, part of what

13

you attest to to the patent office, in other words,

14

what you swear to, is that -- that what you've created

15

is a new and original design; do you generally recall

16

that?

17

A

I -- I recall that when I signed those

18

papers, that I'm saying that I am not aware of

19

anything previously that would render this not new.

20

So yes, I remember that.

21
22

Q

And so taking a look at the design that's

depicted here in Exhibit 8 --

23

A

Yes.

24

Q

-- from your perspective as an inventor, what

25

was different or new or original about this compared
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 159
1

or different from existing designs as of the time that

2

this design was created?

3
4

A

I think that -- I think that covers it in

terms of the form.

5

I think the -- the -- the construction, you

6

know, the -- this, you know, singular clear part and

7

then this singular rear casing, just the simplicity

8

of -- of how -- you know, that architecture, the

9

simplicity of that, I think, was, to me, seems --

10

seems very new, given what the product is, which is a

11

handheld tablet device.

12

Q

Can I please have the '035 mockup.

13

MR. JACOBS:

14

THE WITNESS:

15

18

Have you finished with -- can I

move these, or are you --

16
17

Yeah.

MR. ZELLER:
Q

Sure.

I'm not promising to be finished with them,

but -- but we can move them out of your way --

19

A

Let's move them out of my way.

20

Q

-- if it makes life easier for you.

21
22

MR. JACOBS:

You want to take a break while

we -- because I think this is probably a good --

23

MR. ZELLER:

24

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

25

Yeah, this is a good time.
This is the end of

Disc No. 4, Volume I.
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 160
1

We are off the record at 4:02 p.m.

2

(Recess taken.)

3

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

4

This is the beginning of

Disc No. 5, Volume I.

5

We are back on the record at 4:25 p.m.

6

You may proceed.

7

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

What I'd like to show you is

8

a three-dimensional mockup of a tablet that's been

9

produced by Apple in this case, and it's generally

10

known as the 035 mockup or -- or prototype, and please

11

take a look at that.

12

Have you seen the 035 mockup before?

13

A

Yes, I have.

14

Q

And when do you remember first seeing the 035

15
16

mockup?
A

My recollection of -- of first seeing it is

17

very hazy, but it was, I'm guessing, sometime between

18

2002 and 2004, some -- but it was -- I remember seeing

19

this and -- and perhaps models similar to this when we

20

were first exploring tablet designs that ultimately

21

became the iPad.

22
23
24
25

Q

Do you recognize the 035 mockup as a mockup

that the Apple model shop produced?
A

I actually don't know which model shop

made -- made this, but I recognize this as a model
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 161
1
2

that was produced during our exploration.
Q

Do you recall if the -- the group that

3

produced the actual physical model of this 035 mockup

4

was an internal group or whether it was an outside

5

vendor?

6

A

I have no -- no recollection.

7

Q

Is the 035 mockup a tablet design that you

8
9

personally worked on?
A

It was -- the best of my recollection, this

10

was a design that was modeled as a consequence of the

11

way that we work, which is as a team.

12
13

Q

Do you recognize the 03 mockup design as a

design that you, among other people, invented?

14

A

You said 03.

15

Q

'5 mockup, the physical one that you have in

16
17

front of you?
A

Yes, I recognize this as one of -- one of the

18

models that we made as part of the design process, as

19

part of the exploration.

20

Where my recollection is hazy is trying to

21

remember, you know, at what point in the exploration

22

we made this, the circumstances around making it.

23
24
25

But I certainly recognize it as a model that
we made as part of that exploration.
Q

Is the design that's shown in the
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

'889

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 162
1

design patent, which is marked as Exhibit 8, the same

2

design as the 035 mockup?

3

A

I think that there are many similarities.

4

Q

Apart from being able to say that there are

5

many similarities, can you tell me with any certainty

6

one way or another whether the design that's shown in

7

the '889 design patent is the same design as the 035

8

mockup?

9

MR. JACOBS:
THE WITNESS:

10

Objection; lacks foundation.
I can say confidently that

11

there are many, many elements that are represented in

12

this model that I see in our patent.

13

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And can you tell me anything

14

beyond that with any certainty in terms of whether

15

that's the same design or not?

16

A

I think I -- I think I've done my best to

17

answer the question, which is I think there are many

18

elements that I see here that I see in our design

19

patent.

20

Q

21

models --

22

A

Yeah.

23

Q

-- of any tablet designs that were created

Are you aware of any three-dimensional

24

prior to March 17, 2004, that was closer in its

25

appearance to the design that's shown in the
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]

Highly Confidential - Outside Counsels' Eyes Only

Page 163
1
2

'889 design patent than the 035 mockup?
A

I'm not aware of any that are closer or less

3

close.

4

patent, and I can see many similarities.

5

Q

I recall this model; I, of course, recall this

Is it your best understanding that the model

6

that was created to reflect the design that's shown

7

here in the '889 design patent is the 035 mockup, or

8

is it your impression that there's another mockup that

9

was a rendition -- a three-dimensional rendition of

10

the '889 design?

11

MR. JACOBS:

Objection; lacks foundation.

12

THE WITNESS:

Yes, and I'm afraid I also

13

don't understand your question.

14

another model that reflects this.

15

You said is there

My sense is that we would make a model, and

16

then from what we learned, we would then work on

17

defining a patent, not the other way around.

18
19

MR. ZELLER:

And that's fair enough.

So let

me -- let me rephrase it.

20

Q

You have in front of you the 035 mockup.

21

A

Yes.

22

Q

And I'll tell you, that's -- that's the one

23

that we have here.

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

And so what I'm really trying to find out is:
TSG Reporting - Worldwide

[phone]