Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1381

Unredacted Declaration of Brett Arnold ISO Samsung's MSJ by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, (Dkt. Nos. 930, 943) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1 to Arnold, # 2 Exhibit 2 to Arnold, # 3 Exhibit 3 to Arnold, # 4 Exhibit 5 to Arnold, # 5 Exhibit 10 to Arnold, # 6 Exhibit 11 to Arnold, # 7 Exhibit 12 to Arnold, # 8 Exhibit 15 to Arnold)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/26/2012) Modified text on 7/27/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT 11

Confidential Business Information Pursuant to Protective Order

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UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION

2

WASHINGTON, D.C.

3
4
5

In the Matter of:

6

CERTAIN ELECTRONIC DIGITAL
MEDIA DEVICES AND COMPONENTS

7

Inv. No.

337-TA-796

THEREOF
____________________________/

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9
10
11

CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION

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PURSUANT TO THE PROTECTIVE ORDER

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14
15

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DOUGLAS SATZGER

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SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA

17

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 2012

18
19
20
21
22
23

BY:

24

CSR LICENSE NO. 9830

25

JOB NO. 45787

ANDREA M. IGNACIO HOWARD, CSR, RPR, CCRR, CLR

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2

THE WITNESS:

Are we now speaking about now

or --

3

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

I'm talking about today.

4

A

-- or 2000s?

5

Q

Today.

6

A

There are products in the market that way,

7
8
9

yes.
Q

And -- and you -- you don't think that it's

easier to keep those products clean --

10

MR. DAVIS:

11

MR. ZELLER:

Argumentative.
Q.

-- where they have a flat

12

surface as opposed to having a bezel on the -- the top

13

of the screen?

14

A

Well, I answered the question of, is it a

15

fact that it's easier to clean a flat screen than a

16

larger, non-flat screen with a -- with or without a

17

bezel.

18

And if you can -- can you restate the first

19

question.

20

Q

21

Yeah.

I think -- I think we somewhere got

our wires crossed.

22

A

Yeah.

23

Q

I'm just trying to find out if from -- from

24

your advan -- excuse me.

25

whole question.

Let me just rephrase the

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I'm just trying to find out from your

2

understanding and perspective as a designer whether

3

it's true that having a -- a device -- an electronic

4

device that has a flat screen, as opposed to having a

5

bezel or a rim or a frame on top of that screen, is

6

easier to keep clean?

7
8
9

A

Yes.

And that would be the case independent

of a flat monitor or a CRT.
Q

And it's true that one reason why it's easier

10

to keep clean in those circumstances is because dirt

11

and other materials can get caught up in that edge and

12

make it very difficult to -- to keep clean?

13

A

That would be one of them.

14

Q

Is one reason, too, as you understand it,

15

that flat screens become more popular over time, in

16

addition to the cost considerations and these other

17

advantages that we talked about, is that touch

18

technology has improved over time?

19
20
21
22
23

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; calls for expert

opinion.
THE WITNESS:

Touch -- touch technology has

improved, yes.
MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And -- and is it generally

24

the case that by incorporating a touch screen

25

technology into a display screen, that means that
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there can be fewer buttons or even no buttons on the

2

device because it's all done through the -- the

3

virtual buttons that appear on the display screen?

4
5

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; compound; calls

for expert opinion.

6

THE WITNESS:

7

MR. ZELLER:

It's possible.
Q.

Well, do you agree that over

8

time that by incorporating the touch technology into

9

the display screen, it can make the mobile devices

10
11
12
13

more compact, more mobile?
MR. HUNG:

Same objections; asked and

answered.
THE WITNESS:

Touch technology is -- is

14

integrated into the stack-up of the screen.

15

screen is completely separate.

16

really careful about how I answer these because

17

understanding that process...

So the

So I'm going to be

18

(Sotto voce discussion between counsel.)

19

MR. ZELLER:

Let's please mark as Exhibit 1 a

20

copy of United States Patent 7,768,462, which is

21

entitled "Multiband antenna for handheld electronic

22

devices."

23
24
25

(Document marked Satzger Exhibit 1
for identification.)
THE WITNESS:

Sorry.

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Can I get a glass of
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Q

Directing your attention to the text of the

2

patent.

3

you'll get to a page that is leading -- that has the

4

heading "Multiband Antenna for Handheld Electronic

5

Devices."

6

next page, and you'll see that there are Columns 3 and

7

4 of text.

So you want to flip past the drawings, and

And if you could please then turn to the

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

And just to give you a little bit of context

10

here, if you can take a look at -- starting at line 24

11

of Column 4, you'll see that there are some numbers

12

running down the center between the two columns.

13

A

Uh-huh.

14

Q

And it starts off, it says "Housing may have

15

a bezel," and then continues on; do you see that?

16

A

Uh-huh, yes.

17

Q

So if you could read to yourself that

18

paragraph and then the next paragraph which begins on

19

line 35:

20
21

"Bezel may serve to hold a display or other
device with a planar surface in place on device."

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

And you'll see as part of the context here,

Okay.

Yes.

24

it's talking about in the example of Figure 1; did you

25

see that portion?
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A

Yes.

2

Q

So then picking up with the next paragraph,

3

and this is the paragraph beginning with line 45 and

4

runs through 53.

5

A

Yes.

6

Q

So if you could please read that paragraph to

7

yourself, and let me know when you've had a chance to

8

do that.

9

A

Okay.

10

Q

Do you agree in the context of the smartphone

Yes.

11

that an advantage of integrating a touch screen into

12

the display to make the display touch sensitive is

13

that this type of arrangement can save space and

14

reduce visual clutter?

15
16

MR. HUNG:

legal conclusion and expert opinion.

17
18

Objection; foundation; calls for a

THE WITNESS:

From a design point of view,

yes.

19

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And then, directing your

20

attention to the next page, you'll see that there's

21

Column 5 on the left-hand side.

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

And then if you could please read that first

24

paragraph to yourself, and let me know when you've had

25

a chance to do that.
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A

Yes.

2

Q

Do you agree that in configurations such

3

where the -- the bezel is formed around the periphery

4

of the surface of an electronic device, for example,

5

where the -- the bezel runs around the periphery of

6

the front face of the device, the bezel may help to

7

prevent damage to the display by shielding it from

8

impact in the event that the -- that the device is

9

dropped?

10
11

MR. HUNG:

Objection; calls for a legal

conclusion and expert opinion; also compound.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

MR. ZELLER:

It can.
Q.

That is your -- certainly

14

your understanding of one advantage of having the --

15

the bezel around the edge of a mobile electronic

16

device?

17
18

MR. HUNG:

Asked and answered; same

objection.

19

THE WITNESS:

20

MR. ZELLER:

It's -- it's one solution.
Q.

And it's one advantage to

21

having the bezel in that -- that place around the

22

front face of the device; right?

23

A

I think it's a solution.

24

MR. HUNG:

25

THE WITNESS:

Same objections.
Sorry.

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MR. HUNG:

2

THE WITNESS:

3

MR. ZELLER:

4

Q

You can answer.
It's a solution.
Right.

And I think we're not quite on the same page,

5

because what I'm trying to find out is -- you're

6

saying it's a solution.

7

But I'm asking:

8

When that solution is used,

is that an advantage?

9

So let -- let me try -- try it this way:

In

10

those instances where the solution that is chosen is

11

to have the -- a bezel that runs around the front face

12

of an electronic device, one advantage of that

13

configuration is that it can help prevent damage to

14

the display in the event that the device is dropped,

15

for example?

16
17

MR. HUNG:

Objection; calls for expert

opinion.

18

MR. DAVIS:

19

THE WITNESS:

Incomplete hypothetical.
If -- if the bezel is designed

20

to protect the glass, then correct.

21

designed as decoration, then it serves no function

22

other than cosmetic decoration.

23

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

If the bezel is

Well, in the context of the

24

first generations of iPhone that you worked on, which

25

you'll recall is the -- the context in which we're
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talking about for this patent --

2

A

Uh-huh.

3

Q

-- is it the case that the placement of a

4

bezel with the first iPhone such that it ran around

5

the periphery of the front face of the device, that

6

it -- one advantage of -- of that configuration is

7

that it helped protect the display in the event that

8

the phone is dropped?

9
10
11

MR. HUNG:

Objection; assumes facts; calls

for expert opinion.
THE WITNESS:

In the design of the iPhone,

12

yes, it was a very structural forged metal piece that

13

was the structure of the product.

14

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And in addition to the fact

15

that it was a structural forged metal, the placement

16

of the bezel around the front face of the iPhone

17

helped protect the display as well; right?

18
19

MR. HUNG:

Asked and answered; calls for

expert opinion.

20

THE WITNESS:

21

MR. ZELLER:

That was the goal of it, yes.
Q.

And in fact, when you were

22

working on the first generation of iPhone, as well as

23

the 3G and the 3GS, you from time to time saw or at

24

least were told about drop test reports for the -- for

25

the designs that you were working on; right?
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A

Correct.

I did not see.

I was told and

2

understand that pretty much every product has to go

3

through those two, either to meet carrier's

4

specifications, additionally the carriers too, as

5

well.

6

Q

And certainly, you understood that

7

components, such as the configuration of the -- the

8

bezel for these various iPhones, were -- were tested

9

in order to determine how well they did or didn't

10

protect the device when it was dropped; right?

11

MR. HUNG:

12

expert opinion; compound.

13
14

THE WITNESS:

Yeah, I would assume that

that's part of the trial.

15
16

Objection -- objection; calls for

MR. ZELLER:
Q

Right.

That was your understanding, based on

17

information you heard and received when you were there

18

at Apple; right?

19
20

MR. HUNG:

Same objection; asked and

answered.

21

THE WITNESS:

22

MR. ZELLER:

Yes.
And I know you mentioned that

23

you yourself didn't receive the written reports about

24

drop testing and other kinds of stress testing that

25

was done there within Apple.
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2
3

Q

How is it you would typically receive that

information when you did receive it?
A

For my role in the group, I would receive it

4

through discussions as the -- part of the

5

collaborative team of designers.

6

Q

7

All right.

8

And you had, when you were focused on the
materials and color --

9

A

Yes.

10

Q

-- there at Apple, a technical liaison you

11

worked with?

12

MR. HUNG:

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. ZELLER:

15
16
17

Objection; vague.
Many.
Q.

Was there a particular

technical liaison you worked with?
A

It depends on the material or the application

or the process in the stage of the program.

18

Q

19

Moller --

20

A

Yes.

21

Q

-- who you worked with as a technical

22
23
24
25

Let me try it this way:

There was a Ron

liaison?
A

He was the industrial design color team's

technical lead for color materials and finishes.
Q

And did Mr. Moller liaison with the drop
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same places, that kind of language does not appear in

2

the "Description" area?

3

A

Correct.

4

Q

And so is it the case that when you look at

5

the '677 design patent, you can't tell one way or

6

another whether those various areas with the broken

7

line are part of the -- the claim design or not?

8

MR. HUNG:

9

You can answer.

10

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

I -- I don't know.

I don't

11

understand why this is -- has a mesh and what this

12

patent is applying to, "a mesh" meaning the screen

13

hatch on the -- "screen" meaning a wire screen hatch

14

on the front surface of Figure 1 and Figure 3.

15
16

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And in your last answer, you

were talking about the '677 design patent?

17

A

Yes.

18

Q

If -- if we were to assume for a moment that

19

that hatching pattern that's there on that top or

20

front surface is a designation of the color black, do

21

you believe that the use of the color black for

22

electronic devices by the 2006 time period was

23

something that was -- was new or original?

24
25

A

Assuming for some reason that that is

representing black, no.
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Q

You would agree that by the 2006 time period,

2

black was a very standard color for electronic

3

devices, including portable electronic devices?

4
5

MR. HUNG:

Objection; calls for expert

opinion.

6

THE WITNESS:

7

MR. ZELLER:

Yes.
Q.

In fact, you would agree

8

that black was a common color for electronic devices,

9

including mobile electronic devices, going back to the

10

2000 time period and earlier; right?

11

MR. HUNG:

12

THE WITNESS:

Same objection.
I can't go back that far.

13

don't -- you know, mobile devices -- but it was

14

I

common.

15
16

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

Certainly just in terms of

the overall -- well, I'm sorry.

17

In terms of electronic devices that you were

18

familiar with by the 2000 time period, you would agree

19

that common coloring for them were -- was black?

20
21
22

A

In the electronics industry, black materials

are used, yes.
Q

When you say they are -- they were used,

23

you -- you would agree that in the electronics

24

industry, black materials and the color black was --

25

was commonplace at least as early as 2000?
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A

Yes.

2

MR. HUNG:

3

THE WITNESS:

4

Yes.

5

MR. ZELLER:

Objection; asked and answered.
Sorry.

Q.

Do you recall ever having

6

any kind of discussion or you yourself thinking, back

7

when you were working on the -- the first iPhone

8

design, that having the color black for the device was

9

somehow new or original?

10

A

No.

11

Q

Was the same true with respect to the color

12

black back during the time period when you were

13

working on the tablet computer designs?

14

A

No.

15

Q

I'm sorry.

16

It's a true statement that --

with respect to the tablet computers?

17

A

Yes.

18

Q

And maybe just so we have a clear record -- I

19
20

apologize.

I'm sure it's my fault.

But do you recall ever having any kind of

21

discussion or you yourself thinking, back when you

22

were working on the tablet computer designs within

23

Apple, that having the color black for the device was

24

somehow new or original?

25

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; assumes facts.

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the same or the same, or would you consider it to be a

2

different design from just an appearance point of

3

view?

4

MR. HUNG:

5

legal conclusion.

6
7

THE WITNESS:

I'd say it would be very

similar to -- to the customer.

8
9

Objection; vague; calls for a

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

But at least in terms of the

overall aesthetic of the display, you would agree that

10

changing or revising that front surface of the design

11

of the iMac as it was actually released, and then

12

making that front surface coplanar from edge to edge

13

so it's continuous, would, for all practical purposes,

14

from the consumer's point of view, be the same

15

design --

16

MR. HUNG:

17

MR. ZELLER:

18

MR. HUNG:

19

24
25

-- in its appearance?

-- objection; calls for an expert

THE WITNESS:

It would be very similar from a

distance, yes.

22
23

Q.

opinion; calls for a legal conclusion.

20
21

Objection --

MR. ZELLER:

I think I'm trying to drive at

something different.
Q

In terms of that overall aesthetic, do you

think it would be essentially the same to the -- to
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the end user?

2
3

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; calls for an

expert opinion; calls for a legal conclusion.

4

THE WITNESS:

5

MR. ZELLER:

Yes.
Let's please mark as Exhibit 8 a

6

multipage document, which is an excerpt from a book

7

called Apple Design by Paul Kunkel.

8

(Document marked Satzger Exhibit 8

9

for identification.)

10

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. ZELLER:

Thank you.
And what I'll do is I'll hand

12

you an actual copy of the Apple Design book by Paul

13

Kunkel, and I have flagged for you page 144.

14

And for record purposes, we marked as

15

Exhibit 8 -- the first page is a photocopy of page 144

16

from the Kunkel book.

17

Q

And so I'll hand that to you now.

18

A

Wow.

19

Q

First, you -- you've seen the Apple Design

20

book by Paul Kunkel before?

21

A

Yes.

22

Q

Did you see it back in the time period -- in

23

the 1997 time period when it came out?

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

And when you saw it back in the 1997 time
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period, did you -- did you actually look through it

2

and read it?

3

A

Parts of it, yes.

4

Q

Did you find it to be an interesting book, I

5

mean, just from the perspective of showing the history

6

of -- of Apple Design?

7

A

Yeah, reasonably, yeah.

8

Q

And -- and you were an Apple designer at the

9

time when the book came out?

10

A

Yes.

11

Q

And you were interviewed by Mr. Kunkel for

12

some biographical information?

13

A

Basic, yes.

14

Q

And then you do recall seeing the book at

15

about the time it was published back in '97?

16

A

Yes.

17

Q

And do you remember how you got it?

18

A

That -- I got it through the office, and I

19

don't know if it was -- you know, how we got it.

20

don't know if we -- we purchased them or what.

21

Q

I
Yeah.

Do you remember there being a number of

22

copies that -- that designers received at the time it

23

came out?

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

And -- and regardless of the mechanics,
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you -- you got it through the company in some way?

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

And were you actually provided a copy of your

4

own or --

5

A

Yeah, I have a copy.

6

Q

All right.

7

And directing your attention to page 144,

8

you'll see that there is -- there are three

9

photographs on this page, and you'll see that there's

10

a larger one on the bottom.

11

A

Yes.

12

Q

And for reference, it's -- that's what's

13

referred to as Plate 195.

14

A

Yes.

15

Q

And just -- I'll read it into the record:

16
17

"195 showing the desktop brain box, flat
panel display and keyboard."

18

And then it says:

19

"Industrial design, Apple Computer, Gavin

20

Ivester" --

21

A

Ivester.

22

Q

-- "that" -- T-H-A-T -- "San Francisco,

23

California, Tony Guido and Sigmar Willnauer.

24

design, April through June 1989."

25

Do you see that?
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A

Yes.

2

Q

And this page 144 was in this Paul Kunkel

3

book that you saw back in the 1997 time period; right?

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

And taking a look at the front of the display

6

panel that's shown here, do you see that, setting

7

aside the stand that it's sitting in, that the front

8

surface there appears to be flat and continuous from

9

edge to edge?

10
11

MR. HUNG:

Objection; the document speaks for

itself.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

MR. ZELLER:

14

It appears to be.
Q.

You don't have any reason to

doubt that?

15

A

No.

16

Q

And you don't have any reason to doubt that

17

you and other designers there at Apple, in fact, saw

18

this picture that's on page 144, as well as other

19

pictures back in the book in the 1997 time period when

20

it came out?

21

A

Correct.

22

Q

During the time period when you were there at

23

Apple, did you do any explorations in iPhones that

24

were white?

25

A

Time frame again?
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Q

When you were at Apple.

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

It's the case that with respect to the first

4

iPhone, as well as the 3G and the 3GS, those phones

5

did not come in the color white to consumers?

6
7

A
white.

The first generation iPhone did not come in
The second generation came in white.

8

Q

The 3G did?

9

A

The 3G and the 3GS came in white.

10

Q

All right.

11
12

And then there was a -- an iPhone 4 that was
in white as well --

13

A

Yes.

14

Q

-- after you -- it came to market after you

15

left?

16

A

Yes.

17

Q

And did you work on the white iPhone 3G or

18

3GS?

19

A

Yes.

20

Q

Did you work on both of those?

21

A

Let's see here.

22
23

They are pretty much the

same product, so I would say yes.
Q

With respect to the 3G and the 3GS, at least

24

in terms of whatever work was done in order to create

25

a white phone, it was the same?
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2

the user to see?
A

Components of the -- of the construction are

3

manufacturing, and those are -- could be adhesion,

4

glues.

5

from part to part.

All these things need to have assembly methods

6

Q

7

iPhone --

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

-- were there -- were there any components or

With respect to the first generation of

10

any -- was anything hidden by the mask for that

11

product in the way that we've been talking about it?

12

MR. HUNG:

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. ZELLER:

Objection; vague.
Yes.
Q.

And what is it that the --

15

the black mask for the first iPhone hid in terms of

16

components or whatever else it was?

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

A

Components and the attachment method or the

gluing of the front glass to the LCD.
Q

The black mask was used to make less visible

to the user the -- the point of attachment?
A

The -- the style of attachment or point of

attachment.
Q

And what were some of the components that

24

were hidden by the black or dark mask for the first

25

iPhone?
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A

The front button assembly, the assembly of

2

the mesh in the earpiece, and the gluing of it to the

3

LCD.

4

Q

Anything else you remember?

5

A

No.

6

Q

And then with respect to the iPhone 3G and

7

3GS, was the black mask used to hide any components or

8

attachments or anything else?

9

A

Yes.

10

Q

And what was the black mask used for for the

11
12
13

3G and the 3GS in that regard?
A

Same things.

Components.

Pretty much all

the same stuff.

14

Q

And this point of attachment or adhesion?

15

A

Yes, yeah.

16

Q

And when you say "components" here with

17

respect to the 3G and the 3GS, these are the same

18

components you listed for the first iPhone?

19

A

Yes.

20

Q

Then with respect to the iPod Touch products

21

that you worked on, did they also have that black mask

22

area?

23

A

Yes.

24

Q

And with respect to the generations of the

25

iPod Touch that you worked on, did the black mask
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serve to hide components or attachments or adhesion?

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

And is it the case that, as with the iPhone

4

version that we talked about, that with respect to the

5

iPod Touch products you worked on, the black mask was

6

used to hide components and the points of attachment

7

or adhesion between the screen components and other

8

parts of the phone?

9

A

Yes.

10

Q

Or in the case of the iPod Touch, the iPod

11

Touch?

12

A

Yep.

13

Q

And then what were the components that you

14

can recall the black mask hiding with respect to the

15

iPod Touch?

16

A

Everything:

The components, ambient light

17

sensors, the battery, antenna assemblies, connectors,

18

the home button, attachment methods, any internal

19

structure.

20

Q

And in terms of ensuring that the black mask

21

was able to actually hide the components and the

22

points of attachment or adhesions -- or adhesives,

23

rather -- for the iPhone products and the iPod Touch

24

products that you worked on, did you work with

25

particular technical people to ensure that that was
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there's a page called "Stringer Exhibit 1"; you see

2

that?

3

A

Yes.

4

Q

And then if you turn the page, you'll see

5

that there are some CAD drawings here.

6

A

Uh-huh.

7

Q

In particular, there are two pages of CAD

8

drawings right behind Exhibit 1.

9

A

Yes.

10

Q

Do you recognize this?

11

A

Yes.

12

Q

And what do you recognize this as?

13

A

As the first concept around the iPhone.

14

Q

And by this time --

15

A

It was -- it was not called the iPhone at

16

that time.

Sorry.

17

Q

Right.

18

A

It was just a mobile device.

19

Q

And by this time, were we into the period you

20

were talking about earlier where it was already now

21

being conceptualized as a phone?

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

And when you were talking about the -- the

24

fact that the project became a phone, once there was a

25

touch screen, is this the kind of touch screen that
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you're referring to?

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

And then if you take a look at Exhibit 2,

4

you'll see that there are a couple of more pages of

5

CAD drawings, as well as a file listing.

6

A

Yes.

7

Q

And then with respect to those two pages of

8

CAD images that are a part of Exhibit 2, do you also

9

recognize those as early iterations of the mobile

10

phone?

11

A

Yes.

12

Q

And I take it at some point the decision was

13

made not to go with the -- the design or the -- the

14

hardware that's shown here in Exhibits 1 and 2?

15

A

Yes.

16

Q

And -- and why -- what was the -- the reason

17

for that --

18

MR. HUNG:

19

MR. ZELLER:

20

MR. HUNG:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
Q.

-- this change in direction?

Objection; foundation.
My recollection of it was that

22

to get the extruded aluminum design that was applied

23

to the iPod to work for the iPhone, there were too

24

many added features to allow it to be comfortable and

25

to work properly.
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2
3

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And if you can please tell

me what you mean by that?
A

If you put an iPod up to your ear, the sharp

4

edges, because of the processes, aren't comfortable,

5

and you can't get antennas to work properly in a fully

6

enclosed metal jacket.

7

So each one of those things needed to apply

8

other features that started.

9

the initial concept compared to this one, there's a

10

lot more features than this, and there's a lot more

11

parts so...

12

Q

I mean, if you look at

And so as a result, this phone design shown

13

in Exhibits 1 and 2 that we're talking about here to

14

the Stringer declaration would be more complicated to

15

manufacture, more prone to break, and all the other

16

kinds of disadvantages that having a more complex

17

product involved?

18

MR. HUNG:

19
20
21
22

Objection; calls for expert

opinion; mischaracterizes prior testimony.
THE WITNESS:

I -- from a design point of

view, it was a lot more challenging.
MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And from your understanding,

23

is having a more complicated product of that kind also

24

more challenging or expensive from a manufacturing

25

standpoint"?
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2

MR. HUNG:

hypothetical; calls for an expert opinion.

3
4

Objection; vague; incomplete

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

standpoint?

5

MR. HUNG:

6

THE WITNESS:

7

Same objections.
I can't -- no, I wouldn't say

so.

8
9

Or from a reliability

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

You just don't know one way

or another?

10

A

I don't know, yes.

11

Q

And when you say from a design point of view

12

it was a lot more challenging, it was for those

13

reasons you mentioned earlier?

14
15

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; asked and

answered; mischaracterizes.

16

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. ZELLER:

Yes.
Q.

And you mentioned that it

18

was more difficult to get the antenna, for example, to

19

work in a fully enclosed jacket of the kind that's

20

shown here in Exhibits 1 and 2?

21

A

Yes.

22

Q

Do you recall, was there testing that you saw

23

or that you heard about being done that -- that backed

24

that up?

25

A

Yes.
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Q

And then also you mentioned that another

2

aspect of this design that was shown in Exhibits 1 and

3

2 to the Stringer declaration is, is that by having

4

those sharper edges, it's just not as comfortable up

5

against the user's ear?

6

A

Yes.

7

Q

Were there other reasons why this was not as

8

comfortable from the -- the user perspective?

9

MR. HUNG:

Objection; vague; foundation.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. ZELLER:

Not that I recall.
Q.

And I take it that people

12

within industrial design thought that -- that lack of

13

comfort, having something with the sharp edges up to

14

someone's ear or up next to their head was a -- was a

15

reason not to go with this design?

16
17

MR. HUNG:

Objection; foundation; calls for

speculation.

18

THE WITNESS:

I think that the solutions that

19

lent themselves to make it more comfortable were not

20

good for the overall design, the extruded shape.

21

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And what were those -- those

22

solutions or potentially solu- -- potential solutions

23

you're referring to?

24
25

A

If you look at the -- there's no number on

this page, but under Exhibit 2, the second page of
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open area of the active LCD and the edge of the glass.

2
3

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

area different from the mask?

4

MR. HUNG:

5

THE WITNESS:

6

MR. ZELLER:

7

THE WITNESS:

8

So is that -- is that an

Objection; foundation.
It's defining the mask.
Okay.
But it also defines the size of

the glass.

9

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

And then with respect to the

10

margins being wider, what's your understanding of --

11

of that?

12

MR. HUNG:

13

THE WITNESS:

Same objection.
If the short dimensions are 52,

14

they're two millimeters wider than the long

15

dimensions, which would be 50.

16

numbers, so just as an example.

17

MR. ZELLER:

Q.

I'm just grabbing

And were you, yourself,

18

involved in any of the -- the changes to the margins

19

for the tablet in order to accommodate the audio jack?

20

A

No.

21

Q

Do you know if there were changes that were

22

made to the margins for reasons other than -- than

23

accommodating the audio jack?

24

MR. HUNG:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection; foundation.
No, I don't.

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MR. ZELLER:

I'm going to designate as

2

Exhibit 12 a tangible item which is labeled "Apple

3

Proto 0355," and for the record, it was previously

4

marked as Exhibit 1455 at the deposition of Jony Ive,

5

and I'll hand that to you.

6

(Apple Proto 0355 marked Satzger Exhibit 12

7

for identification.)

8
9

MR. HUNG:

I understand our agreement,

Mr. Zeller, about showing him documents that he may

10

not have seen previously.

11

models where I'm not sure of the date in terms of when

12

they were created.

13

understanding.

14

Particularly with these

MR. ZELLER:

I wanted to make sure we had an

Yes, I -- I -- I will agree on

15

the blanket basis that anything and everything that --

16

that he sees during the deposition.

17

MR. HUNG:

18

MR. ZELLER:

19

A

Okay.
Q.

Thank you.
Have you seen that before?

This specific one, I'm not sure.

I'm fairly

20

sure this is, yeah, part of the model studies that

21

were done.

22
23
24
25

Q

So I take you don't have a specific

recollection of this one?
A

Of this specific design, I do.

don't.
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2

Q

that you do have a -- a general -- I'm sorry.

3
4

And -- and so if I understand you correctly,

You have a recollection of the design, but -but not as implemented in the three-dimensional model?

5

A

I don't know if I've seen this specific

6

model.

7

the reasons why this design is the way it is.

8

Q

9
10

I'm very familiar with the design, yes, and

And so that was going to be my next question.
Please tell me what it is that you understand

about this design.

11

A

The -- there's strong interest in doing two

12

pieces of shaped glass.

13

remembering at all is why the face is broken up this

14

way.

15

Q

The part that I am not

And setting that part of it aside about why

16

the face is broken up in that way, you recall that

17

there was -- I think as you said, there was a strong

18

interest within the group in doing a smartphone design

19

that had shaped glass?

20

A

Yes.

21

Q

And the particular prototype or model that

22

you have in front of you, the 0355 model, has shaped

23

glass on both the front and the back?

24

A

That was the intent.

25

Q

And ultimately this was not a design that was
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used?

2

A

Correct.

3

Q

And if you can please tell me what's your

4

understanding of why that design with the shaped glass

5

was not used?

6

A

The technology in shaping the glass, the cost

7

relative to shaping the glass at the time, and some of

8

the design features of this specific shape were not

9

liked.

10
11
12

Q

And when you say that the -- that they were

not liked, what do you mean by that?
A

Originally this line wanted to stay straight

13

all the way through, and to get the transition without

14

shaping, doing a three-dimensional shape or like

15

complex surfacing on this part, this is a

16

single-dimensional process, that we changed it to an

17

extruded glass, and this line had to follow that

18

extrusion, and that shape down there is not as pure as

19

that shape there.

20
21
22
23
24
25

Q

And for the record, the portions that you are

referring to are the side?
A

The -- let's use the same terminology -- the

short order of the phone, the shape of the side.
Q

And what was your understanding as to the

cost of the shaping of the glass?
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MR. HUNG:

2

THE WITNESS:

3

MR. ZELLER:

4
5

Objection; foundation.
I -- that it was a lot.
Q.

And did you have an

understanding as to why that was?
A

The technology at the time had a lot to do

6

with it.

7

lot to do with it.

8

remember a time frame -- that were before gorilla

9

glass and before a lot of the other factors.

10

Q

The qualities of the glass at the time had a
These are models -- I'm trying to

And I take it that the 0355 prototype that

11

you have there was a model or a design, I should say,

12

that you saw after the explorations shown in

13

Exhibits 1 and 2 to Mr. Stringer's declaration?

14

A

I don't -- I don't recall the time frame.

15

Q

You're just not sure of --

16

A

I don't know exactly.

17

Yeah, I'm trying to

remember the sequence, and I don't know.

18

Q

It's 5:05.

19

A

Okay.

20

Q

So we should probably go off the record and

21

talk for a minute.

22

MR. DAVIS:

23

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

24
25

All right.
The time is 5:04 p.m., and

we are off the record.
(Recess taken.)
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2

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

The time is 5:12 p.m., and

we are back on the record.

3

MR. ZELLER:

So we've conferred off the

4

record, and the witness does need to -- to attend to

5

some personal obligations, so we're going to adjourn

6

for the day.

7

I haven't finished my questions.

I know that

8

Apple's attorney, as he's mentioned off the record and

9

will undoubtedly confirm on the record as well, also

10

has some question -- some questions, rather, that he

11

has for the witness.

12

So what our intention is is that we'll --

13

we'll let the witness go for today.

14

deposition, and we will come to an agreement as to

15

some additional time to conclude the questioning by --

16

by both us and Apple.

We'll adjourn the

17

MR. HUNG:

18

MR. DAVIS:

19

The only thing that we would ask is that --

And that is correct.
And that's fine with us.

20

is that you guys try to get it in in the next few

21

weeks.

22

down just because he's got other employment

23

obligations.

24

want to make sure we get the witness done.

25

You know, let's try to get the date nailed

He's no longer with Apple, so I just

MR. ZELLER:

Absolutely, and we do actually

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