Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 1384

Unredacted Exhibits to Arnold Declaration ISO Samsung's MSJ by Samsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC(a Delaware limited liability company) re 1256 Order on Administrative Motion to File Under Seal, (Dkt. Nos. 930, 945) (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 46 to Arnold, # 2 Exhibit 47 to Arnold, # 3 Exhibit 48 to Arnold, # 4 Exhibit 49 to Arnold, # 5 Exhibit 50 to Arnold, # 6 Exhibit 51 to Arnold, # 7 Exhibit 52 to Arnold, # 8 Exhibit 54 to Arnold, # 9 Exhibit 55 to Arnold, # 10 Exhibit 56 to Arnold, # 11 Exhibit 57 to Arnold, # 12 Exhibit 58 to Arnold, # 13 Exhibit 60 to Arnold, # 14 Exhibit 63 to Arnold, # 15 Exhibit 64 to Arnold, # 16 Exhibit 66 to Arnold, # 17 Exhibit 68 to Arnold, # 18 Exhibit 69 to Arnold, # 19 Exhibit 71 to Arnold, # 20 Exhibit 73 to Arnold, # 21 Exhibit 74 to Arnold, # 22 Exhibit 75 to Arnold, # 23 Exhibit 76 to Arnold, # 24 Exhibit 77 to Arnold, # 25 Exhibit 78 to Arnold, # 26 Exhibit 79 to Arnold, # 27 Exhibit 80 to Arnold, # 28 Exhibit 81 to Arnold, # 29 Exhibit 82 to Arnold)(Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 7/26/2012) Modified text on 7/27/2012 (dhm, COURT STAFF).

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UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION

2

WASHINGTON, D.C.

3
4

In the Matter of:

5

CERTAIN ELECTRONIC DIGITAL

Investigation No.

MEDIA DEVICES AND COMPONENTS

337-TA-796

6

THEREOF
-----------------------------/

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8
9
10
11

CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION

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PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER

13

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF BRIAN LYNCH

14

Redwood Shores, California

15

Thursday, April 12, 2012

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17
18
19
20
21
22
23

Reported by:
LORRIE L. MARCHANT, CSR No. 10523

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25

RPR, CRR, CCRR, CLR
JOB NO. 48526
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A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And can you tell me the -- the types of

3

issues that are discussed in those brainstorming

4

meetings?

5

A.

I would give you the same description as I

6

did for the iPhone, the general discussion of

7

specific technical challenges or issues.

8
9
10

Q.

And have you participated in brainstorming

meetings regarding the iPod touch, where members of
other product design teams participate?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

In the brainstorming meetings regarding the

13

iPhone, do you recall there being any issues

14

discussed other than what you've described as

15

technical issues or challenges?

16
17

A.

I recall being in meetings where we

discussed potential features for a product.

18

Q.

And that's an iPhone product?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Do you recall participating in

21

brainstorming meetings regarding the iPhone where

22

the topic of discussion was something other than a

23

technical discussion or -- or product -- potential

24

product features?

25

A.

No.
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Q.

When you -- you talk about discussing

2

technical issues or challenges in these

3

brainstorming meetings, would you include in --

4

in -- in that category, for example, cost control

5

issues?

6

MR. DANIS:

7

THE WITNESS:

8

What do you mean by "cost

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Just costing issues.

11

MR. DANIS:

12

THE WITNESS:

13

Same objection.
Could you give me an example

of a costing issue?

14
15

Vague.

control issues"?

9
10

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Is -- is -- do you have any -- do you have

16

any understanding as to what I mean when I say "a

17

costing issue"?

18

A.

I understand cost -- cost -- cost of --

19

cost is a numerical measure of the expense or value

20

of something.

21

Q.

But "issues" is a very general term.

Well, and -- and I intend it to be general.

22

And that is, in any of these brainstorming meetings

23

regarding the iPhone, do you ever talk about issues

24

related to the cost of components or features?

25

A.

I would say -- I -- I don't recall any
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instances of specific discussion in detail of cost.

2
3

Q.

Do you recall any discussions about --

strike that.

4

In -- in your position as director of iPod

5

product design, do you have any responsibility

6

for -- for costing issues?

7

A.

Yes.

One of the requirements of the design

8

is -- specifically for internal components is that

9

we design them in such a way that they are able to

10

be produced at a reasonable price.

11

Q.

And in your position, do you see, from time

12

to time, information relating to the costs of

13

manufacturing the products that you're responsible

14

for?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

And in the brainstorming meetings that

17

you've participated in regarding the iPhone, can you

18

tell me the -- the types of technical issues you

19

recall being discussed?

20

A.

I recall a specific discussion around how

21

to effectively provide radio frequency shielding of

22

components on a circuit board during the design

23

phase of the iPhone, third -- iPhone -- the iPhone,

24

second-generation iPhone.

25

There was a discussion of designing what we
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call shield cans and shield fences in order to

2

contain radiated RF emissions from the chips on the

3

circuit board, prevent them from interfering with

4

the other radios.

5

Q.

Any others?

6

MR. DANIS:

7

BY MR. KIDMAN:

8
9
10

Q.

I'm sorry.

Any other what?

Well, any other technical issues regarding

the iPhone that you recall being discussed in any of
these brainstorming meetings.

11

A.

Not that I specifically recall.

12

Q.

Do you recall generally any other issues

13

related to the iPhone being discussed in any of

14

those brainstorming meetings?

15
16
17
18

A.

Again, I don't have a specific recollection

of any other -- any other items being discussed.
Q.

Do you have a general recollection of any

other items being discussed?

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

What issues do you recall being discussed

21

in any of these brainstorming meetings regarding the

22

iPad?

23

A.

I recall a discussion of how to design an

24

internal structure to prevent denting of a housing

25

in the corners of the housing during a drop test.
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I recall discussion of using -- I suppose

2

this is related to an unreleased project, so I

3

recall --

4

MR. DANIS:

Well, let me interject.

I

5

would object to any testimony and instruct you not

6

to answer as to any unannounced features or product

7

as related to the iPad or any -- any of the other

8

products today.

9
10

THE WITNESS:

I recall another brainstorm

related to the --

11

MR. KIDMAN:

Well, I just want to -- I just

12

want to clarify.

13

instructing him not to answer questions about

14

unreleased product, I agree with that.

If it's -- if -- if -- if you're

15

MR. DANIS:

16

MR. KIDMAN:

Right.
But if -- if it's -- if it's

17

explorations of features or alternative designs in

18

connection with a product that was released, I think

19

I'm entitled -- entitled to know that.

20
21

THE WITNESS:

This product hasn't been

released.

22

I recall -- actually, this product has not

23

been released either, the other recollection that I

24

have.

25

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2

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Other than the internal structure to

3

prevent the denting of the housing during --

4

during -- if the product is dropped, do you recall

5

any other issues being discussed in any of these

6

brainstorming meetings regarding the iPad?

7

A.

No, not that I recall.

8

Q.

What issues do you recall being discussed

9

in any of these brainstorming meetings regarding the

10

iPod touch?

11

iPod touch.

12

A.

And I'm referring to any version of the

I recall a brainstorm related to preventing

13

the denting of the corner of the iPod touch housing

14

as well.

15

lot of products.

16

I recall -- I apologize.

I've worked on a

I recall brainstorms related to the

17

general -- the -- what we would call the

18

architecture of a product, meaning the general ways

19

in which we connect major parts together, for

20

second-generation iPod.

21

connect things.

22

Internal details of how to

I recall brainstorms of how to do --

23

related to how to -- where to locate circuits,

24

internal integrated circuit chips, and batteries

25

relative to one another inside a product.
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Q.

Do you recall any other issues being

2

discussed regarding any version of the iPod touch

3

during any of these brainstorming meetings?

4

A.

No, not specifically.

5

Q.

So we kind of started down this road about

6

talking about the brain -- brainstorming meetings

7

that you've participated in when I asked you about

8

your involvement with any Apple products other than

9

iPod products.

10

Other than participating in these

11

brainstorming meetings, have you had any -- any

12

involvement in connection with the design or

13

development of any version of the iPhone?

14

MR. DANIS:

15

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Overbroad.

Again, very -- that's a very

16

general statement.

17

examples of specific ways that -- yeah.

18

formal way, let's say.

19
20

Perhaps if you could give me
Not in any

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Do you have in mind any other ways in which

21

you've been involved in the design or development of

22

the iPhone other than these brainstorming meetings?

23
24
25

A.

I would say I've been shown samples of

internal components in an informal way.
Q.

Anything else?
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A.

I have looked at CAD models of components

2

in an informal setting.

3

status of iPhone projects with my colleagues on the

4

iPhone team and, again, in informal ways and in,

5

like, staff meetings or things like that.

6

received e-mails about the status of iPhone

7

projects.

And I've discussed the

I've

8

Q.

Anything else come to mind?

9

A.

No, nothing else comes to mind.

10

Q.

In any of these other settings in -- that

11

you've just described for me, where you've

12

participated in the design or development of the

13

iPhone, any version of the iPhone, do you recall the

14

discussion of any -- what you've described as

15

technical issues?

16
17
18

A.

issues in those settings?
Q.

19
20

Do I recall the discussion of technical

Yes.
MR. DANIS:

Objection.

It's vague and

overbroad.

21

THE WITNESS:

The first thing, you said

22

that I was involved in the design and development of

23

iPhones.

24

statement.

25

their design.

I wouldn't -- I wouldn't agree with that
I wouldn't say that I was involved in

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I would say that I was involved in

2

discussions around their design.

3

personal credit for design.

I wouldn't take

4

And could you clarify your question?

5

BY MR. KIDMAN:

6

Q.

7

Sure.
In -- in any -- any of these settings --

8

and I'm not trying to mischaracterize the extent of

9

your involvement, but I'm -- I just want to focus on

10

these -- these -- we've talked about the

11

brainstorming meetings.

12

A.

Right.

13

Q.

And the technical issues regarding the

14

iPhone you recall being discussed in these

15

brainstorming meetings.

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And then we talked about these other --

18

other settings where you've had some participation.

19

A.

Right.

20

Q.

And discussions concerning the iPhone.

21
22

And so my question is in these other
settings --

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

-- do you recall any technical issues that

25

were discussed?
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A.

2

Any specific technical issues.
I recall discussing the design of

3

insulating layers nearby electrical components in

4

order to prevent them from making contact with metal

5

housing components.

6

I recall discussing the manufacturing

7

process for certain iPhone components, particularly

8

housings, the sequence in which they're made.

9

equipment that's used to make them.

10

The

I recall discussing the internal

11

architecture of the phone, where the headphone

12

connector is located relative to the display, for

13

example.

14
15

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Please be careful of

your microphone, Counsel.

16

MR. KIDMAN:

17

BY MR. KIDMAN:

Oh, I'm sorry.

18

Q.

Any other issues?

19

A.

I recall discussing the performance of

20

other products in reliability tests.

21

discussing the selection of materials for other

22

products.

I recall

The selection of vendors for those parts.

23

Q.

Anything else that you recall?

24

A.

I recall discussion of issues related to

25

the interaction of sensors on the inside of -- of
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iPhones.

2
3

Sensors that also exist in an iPod touch.
I recall discussing field reliability

issues of iPhones and iPods.

4

I recall discussing the -- the road map for

5

new versions of sensors and other internal

6

components that would eventually find their way into

7

iPods and iPhones.

8

Q.

9

MR. DANIS:

10
11
12

Any other issues that you recall?
Technical issues?

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Any -- any issues that you recall being

discussed that --

13

A.

Any issues at all?

14

Q.

-- we haven't talked about.

15

A.

I recall discussing procedures for handling

16

prototypes, to avoid them being misplaced or lost.

17

I recall discussing positions of engineers

18

within the -- within the iPhone team and -- you

19

know, we've had engineers transfer from one group to

20

the other group.

21

I recall discussing space planning, where

22

we will make space for new engineers who join the

23

team.

24
25

I recall discussing potential new engineers
who we'd be interested in hiring and discussing
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where they might fit into our team.

2

I recall discussing relationships with the

3

cross-functional teams, electrical engineering

4

teams, and strategies for working -- working with

5

them.

6

Q.

7
8

Anything else that you recall?
MR. DANIS:

Objection.

It's vague and

ambiguous.

9

THE WITNESS:

Yeah.

Yes, there are other

10

discussions that I recall having with members of the

11

iPhone team.

12
13
14

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

or development of the iPhone?

15
16

MR. DANIS:

THE WITNESS:

Those are the specific

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

21
22

Vague and

discussions that I recall.

19
20

Objection.

ambiguous.

17
18

And these are issues related to the design

Is there a -- strike that.
So you -- you're the director of the iPod

product design group; correct?

23

A.

Correct.

24

Q.

Is there a -- to your knowledge, a director

25

of the iPhone product design group?
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A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Who is that?

3

A.

His name is Tang Tan.

4

Q.

And is there a manager -- one or more

5

managers of the iPhone product design group?

6

A.

Tang has two managers on his team.

7

Q.

Who -- who are they?

8

A.

Their names are Dave Pakula and

9

Richard Dinh.

10
11

Q.

And is there a director of the iPad product

design team?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And who is that?

14

A.

His name is John Ternus.

15

Q.

And does Mr. Ternus have managers below

16

him?

17

A.

I believe so.

18

Q.

Do you know who they are?

19

A.

I believe one is named Sean Corbin.

20
21

Another is named Andy Lauder.
Q.

22

And, I'm sorry, I may have asked you this.
Do you have managers -- managers below --

23

below you?

24

A.

I do, yes.

25

Q.

And how many?
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A.

Two.

2

Q.

Who are your managers?

3

A.

Emery Sanford and Fletcher Rothkopf.

4

Q.

Are Mr. Sanford's areas of responsibility

5

different from Mr. Rothkopf's?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And how -- how does that divide up?

8

A.

They work on different projects.

9

Q.

And -- and do you assign them the

10

product -- the products that they -- or projects

11

that they work on?

12

A.

Yes.

Emery and Fletcher have been managers

13

only since January of this year or December of last

14

year.

15

Just recently.

Q.

Did Mr. Rothkopf replace somebody in -- in

16

that position as -- in his current position as

17

manager?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

That was a newly created position?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And how about Mr. Sanford, did he replace

22

somebody?

23

A.

No.

24

Q.

Prior to Mr. Sanford and Mr. Rothkopf

25

becoming managers on the iPod product design team,
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again.

2

Q.

3

Sure.
Do you recall any discussion about any

4

risks associated with using cover glass where the

5

top surface was curved in connection with the iPhone

6

4?

7

MR. DANIS:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Asked and answered.

Not other than the general

recollection that I have around these architectures.

10
11

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And -- and -- and what's your general

12

recollection about the risks associated with using

13

cover glass where the top surface was curved?

14

A.

15
16

What's my general recollection?
MR. DANIS:

Objection.

Misstates the

witness's prior testimony.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

general recollection.

19

Again, all I have is a

BY MR. KIDMAN:

20

Q.

And what is that general recollection?

21

A.

That we discussed different architectures

22

for achieving touch sensing on a curved cover glass.

23
24
25

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And in connection with those discussions,

did you also talk about risks associated with using
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2
3
4

industrial design decision; is that correct?
A.

That's my -- that's my best recollection,

yeah.
Q.

Did you participate in any discussions

5

concerning the decision not to use curved cover

6

glass in the sixth-generation iPod nano?

7

A.

Not that I recall.

8

Q.

Have you seen any documents that discuss

9
10

the decision as to whether or not to use curved
cover glass in the sixth-generation iPod nano?

11

A.

Not that I recall.

12

Q.

Do you recall how it was you learned that

13

curved cover glass would not be used in the

14

sixth-generation iPod nano?

15

A.

I recall receiving from industrial design

16

a -- a -- our team received from industrial design a

17

final file describing the specific geometry for

18

the -- for the sixth-generation iPod nano that

19

contained flat top surface cover glass.

20
21

Q.

Was that a surface file that you received

from the industrial design group?

22

A.

It would have been a surface file, yes.

23

Q.

Other than the surface file, have you seen

24
25

any -- any other documents -- well, strike that.
Did you yourself have any discussion with
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any -- any people in the industrial design group

2

about whether or not to use curved cover glass with

3

the sixth- -- sixth-generation iPod nano?

4

A.

I don't remember any specific discussions.

5

Q.

Do you recall generally that such

6

discussions did happen?

7

A.

I don't recall that.

8

Q.

Do you know if any of the members of -- of

9

your team had discussions with the industrial design

10

group about whether or not to use curved cover glass

11

with the sixth-generation iPod nano?

12

A.

I don't recall that happening either.

13

Q.

Going back to the PD risks associated with

14

using curved cover glass on the fourth-generation

15

iPod nano, you indicated that the curved cover glass

16

required new manufacturing methods that were

17

unknown; correct?

18

A.

I would say that -- to be specific, that

19

they were -- required manufacturing methods that

20

were unknown to us at Apple at that time.

21

to me, I should say.

22

Q.

Unknown

And how is the manufacturing method used to

23

manufacture the curved cover glass different from

24

the manufacturing method used to manufacture flat

25

cover glass?
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2
3
4
5

A.

Which specific cover glass are you

referring to?
Q.

I'm talking about the curved cover glass

used with the fourth-generation iPod nano.
A.

So the manufacturing process for what's a

6

completely front and back side planar cover glass

7

involves one or two fewer steps.

8
9

So a curved cover glass, in the case of the
fourth-generation iPod nano, requires basically two

10

additional steps in order to manufacture it.

11

There's a grinding and polishing step that use a

12

grinding and polishing tool with a geometry that

13

matches the curvature of the glass.

14

Whereas in -- in the alternative process

15

for using -- for manufacturing flat glass, there is

16

simply a lapping or polishing step on the front and

17

back that uses a planar polishing surface.

18

Q.

And, I'm sorry, so the two additional steps

19

required to manufacture the curved cover glass as

20

opposed to the flat cover -- cover glass are the

21

grinding and polishing steps?

22

A.

Shaped grinding and shaped polishing.

23

Q.

And how does that differ from the process

24
25

for doing -- manufacturing flat glass?
A.

There's -- the grinding process for the
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front surface does not exist in the manufacturing of

2

a flat piece of glass.

3

specific, sort of bristled wheel polishing of the

4

front surface does not exist in the -- in the

5

creation of a flat -- flat piece of glass.

6

Q.

7

And the polishing, to be

In -- excuse me.
Do those two additional manufacturing steps

8

that are required to make the curved cover glass as

9

opposed to the flat cover glass, do those two

10

additional steps add cost to the manufacturing?

11

MR. DANIS:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Speculation.

I -- I don't -- I don't have

13

a complete breakdown of the process costs.

14

say that they are additional operations, but I --

15

but I don't know whether or not -- I don't know

16

their contribution to the cost.

17
18

I would

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Do you know if the cost to manufacture the

19

curved cover glass used with the fourth-generation

20

iPod nano is -- is higher than the cost would have

21

been to manufacture that same cover glass, only

22

flat?

23

A.

I don't -- I don't recall ever trying to

24

estimate the cost of that same piece of glass in a

25

flat state.
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Q.

Do you know if the cost of the -- so you

2

don't have any understanding one way or another as

3

to whether it costs more to manufacture -- well,

4

strike that.

5

Do you have any understanding at all as to

6

whether it costs more to manufacture the curved

7

cover glass used with a fourth-generation iPod nano

8

than it would to manufacture that same piece of

9

glass with -- with a flat top surface?

10
11

MR. DANIS:

Objection.

Speculation.

Asked

and answered.

12

THE WITNESS:

Yeah.

Again, I haven't ever

13

tried to estimate the cost of -- of a -- of the

14

alternate geometry that you've described.

15
16

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Well, based on your experience, do you

17

have -- do you have any understanding as to whether

18

it would cost more to -- to manufacture the curved

19

cover glass with these additional manufacturing

20

steps?

21
22

MR. DANIS:

Objection.

No foundation.

Speculation.

23

THE WITNESS:

24

BY MR. KIDMAN:

25

Q.

Yeah, I wouldn't speculate.

You just don't have any understanding in
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that regard; is that -- is that true?

2
3

MR. DANIS:

THE WITNESS:

I don't have any specific

understanding of that.

6
7

And it's also

vague.

4
5

Same objections.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

So based -- based on your experience and

8

based on your position as the director of product

9

design for the iPod group, you have no understanding

10

as to whether that decision to include curved cover

11

glass on the fourth-generation iPod nano added to

12

the cost of the manufacturing of the product; is

13

that correct?

14
15

MR. DANIS:

I'm sorry.

Can you -- can you

read the question back.

16

(Record read as follows:

17

"Q

18

on your position as the director of product

19

design for the iPod group, you have no

20

understanding as to whether that decision

21

to include curved cover glass on the

22

fourth-generation iPod nano added to the

23

cost of the manufacturing of the product;

24

is that correct?")

25

THE WITNESS:

So based on your experience and based

I would say that with the

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introduction of a new process, I was personally

2

concerned about the addition of cost from adding

3

additional processing steps.

4

not do a -- I don't recall doing a comparison of the

5

same geometry with the flat surface to a curved

6

surface in order to quantify what the exact cost

7

difference would be.

8
9

But I do not -- I did

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

But your concern was that by adding these

10

additional processing steps, that it would increase

11

the cost to some degree; is that correct?

12

A.

That's a consideration, yes.

13

Q.

And is it your understanding -- I

14

understand that you may not have quantified a

15

difference in cost between manufacturing the curved

16

cover glass and the flat cover glass, but is it your

17

understanding that it did add to the cost -- the

18

manufacturing cost of the product to include the

19

curved cover glass as opposed to the flat cover

20

glass?

21
22
23

MR. DANIS:
Speculation.

Objection.

No foundation.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

I don't know what -- which

24

flat cover glass you're referring to.

25

specific alternative flat design to which to
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compare.

2
3

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Well, what was your concern, then, about

4

the -- adding the two additional manufacturing steps

5

with respect to the issue of cost?

6

MR. DANIS:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Asked and answered.

I'll say it again, that I am

8

concerned that -- I was concerned that adding

9

additional processing steps would increase the cost.

10
11

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And is it your understanding that adding

12

those additional processing steps did, in fact,

13

increase the cost in some amount?

14
15

MR. DANIS:

Objection.

Speculation.

Vague.

16

THE WITNESS:

I would say that -- that

17

those processing costs -- that those additional

18

processing steps -- those processing steps have

19

associated cost.

20
21

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And the cost of those additional processing

22

steps add to the cost of manufacturing the product;

23

correct?

24
25

A.

Every -- yeah.

The -- the cost of the

product is a sum of the cost of material and
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2

processing steps.
Q.

And so if there's a cost associated with

3

additional processing steps, then those -- those

4

costs associated with those additional processing

5

steps add to the cost of the product; correct?

6

MR. DANIS:

7

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

Speculation.

Again, I -- I can only make

8

specific statements about the cost of this -- the --

9

the process steps involved in making this piece of

10

glass and this cost are extremely general ones.

11

And in the case of this glass, there wasn't

12

an alternate processing -- alternate process or

13

alternate geometry that we considered for

14

comparison, so I don't really know how to answer

15

that.

16

In general, though, I would say that when

17

you add more processing steps to the creation of

18

something, depending on the cost of those processing

19

steps and the cost of the -- and the time of those

20

processing steps and the time things -- of the -- of

21

each processing step leading up to that or after

22

that, the yield of that processing steps, all of

23

those things can contribute to the cost of a part.

24
25

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Did you do anything to investigate your
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concern that these additional processing costs --

2

processing steps to manufacture the curved cover

3

glass would -- would increase costs?

4
5

MR. DANIS:

Misstates the

witness's prior testimony.

6
7

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Could you just -- could we

read it back.

8

(Record read as follows:

9

"Q

Did you do anything to investigate your

10

concern that these additional processing

11

costs -- processing steps to manufacture

12

the curved cover glass would increase

13

costs?")

14

THE WITNESS:

We specifically worked to --

15

with other teams within Apple to quantify the costs

16

of the part.

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

What -- what other teams did you work with

to quantify the cost of the part?
A.

We worked with our supply base engineering

team and our global supply chain management team.
Q.

And did you, in fact, quantify the cost of

manufacturing the part?

24

A.

I did not personally.

25

Q.

But that was done at Apple?
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2

Q.

When you say "N81," that's the currently

shipping fourth generation of iPod touch?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And putting that aside, are you aware of

Yes.

5

any drop testing that was done on any design

6

exploration in connection with any version of the

7

iPod touch where that cover glass sat higher than

8

the top edge of the housing in a way that was

9

intended to be visually apparent to the user of the

10
11
12
13

device?
A.

None other than the -- the testing we

discussed before with curved glass.
Q.

Now, when you presented the results of the

14

testing of the design with the curved glass to the

15

industrial design group, did you present that by way

16

of a -- a Keynote presentation?

17
18
19

A.

I believe we had printed copies of the

Keynote presentation.
Q.

And isn't it true that the reaction of the

20

industrial design members who you made the

21

presentation to was that they were disappointed with

22

the high failure rate of the curved cover glass?

23

MR. DANIS:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Objection.

Asked and answered.

I don't recall that -- that

disappointment as a particular reaction.
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don't -- I don't recall their reaction.

2
3

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

You don't recall one way or another whether

4

they were disappointed with the failure rate of the

5

curved cover glass?

6

A.

I recall that they weren't -- they weren't

7

pleased by the result.

8

I'm certain that they weren't happy about the

9

result.

10
11
12

Q.

I don't recall them being --

I don't recall particular disappointment.
And -- and why do you say you're certain

that they weren't happy about the result?
A.

I think that I would have recalled a -- a

13

positive -- a very positive reaction, I guess.

14

don't -- yeah.

15

Q.

I'm sorry.

16

A.

Yes, I'm finished.

17

Q.

Just

There's a white version of the N81;

18

Are you finished?
Sorry.

correct?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And N81, again, is the fourth-generation

21

We call it N81A.

iPod touch correct?

22

A.

Correct.

23

Q.

And is there a white version of the

24
25

third-generation iPod touch?
A.

No.
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2

Q.

So the fourth-generation iPod touch is the

one that shipped in a -- in a white version?

3

A.

With the cover glass, yes.

4

Q.

And is there a separate team within product

5

design that works on the white version of the

6

fourth-generation iPod touch as opposed to the black

7

version?

8
9
10

A.

No.

The -- well, to be specific, the white

version happened at a different point in time of the
black version, with a subset of the team.

11

Q.

And who's -- who makes up the team or who

12

made up the team that works on the white version of

13

the fourth-generation iPod touch?

14
15

A.

The white version for the iPod team was

Anna Shedletsky and Eric De Jong.

16

Q.

Anyone else?

17

A.

Adam Mittleman may have briefly worked on

18

it.

He no longer -- no longer works at Apple.

19

Q.

When did Adam leave?

20

A.

He left in -- I believe around April of

21

2011.

22

Q.

Do you know where he went?

23

A.

He went -- he took time away from work.

24

Q.

Do you know if he is currently working?

25

A.

He is currently working, yeah.
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Q.

Do you know where?

2

A.

I believe he's working at a company called

3

Nest Labs.

4

Q.

Is that Tony Fadell's company?

5

A.

I don't know if it's Tony Fadell's company.

6

I know that he is associated with it.

7

Q.

M-hm.

8

A.

With Nest Labs, yes.

9
10

He's associated with Nest Labs?
I don't know what the

nature of the association is.
Q.

Does the white version of the

11

fourth-generation iPod touch cost more to

12

manufacture than the black version?

13

A.

I believe so, yes.

14

Q.

Do you have any understanding as to -- to

15

why the white version costs more to manufacture than

16

the black version?

17

A.

There are -- yes, I do.

18

Q.

And what's your understanding in that

19
20

regard?
A.

There are -- for the cover glass part,

21

there are additional layers of ink printed on the

22

back side of the cover.

23

operation on a plastic housing part that's not --

24

that doesn't exist on the black housing and a two --

25

at least two printing operations on the inside of

There is also a painting

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that white piece of plastic than doesn't exist on

2

the black unit.

3

It also has a -- I'm -- I'm not actually

4

sure if this affects cost or not, so I won't

5

speculate.

6

Q.

Never mind.

Are there any other reasons why the white

7

version of the fourth-generation iPod touch cost

8

more to manufacture than the black version other

9

than the things you've just told me about?

10

A.

Not that I recall.

11

Q.

And do you know how much more the white

12

version of the iPod touch costs than the black

13

version?

14

A.

I'm not certain, no.

15

Q.

Do you have -- do you have any

16
17

understanding in that regard?
A.

18
19

My -MR. DANIS:

Objection.

Speculation.

and answered.

Asked

20

THE WITNESS:

21

BY MR. KIDMAN:

Yeah.

I'd be guessing.

22

Q.

Have you seen information on that?

23

A.

I believe at one point I've seen

24

information on the cost difference, but I don't

25

recall the numbers.
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Q.

Do you know if it's more than a dollar?

2

MR. DANIS:

3

THE WITNESS:

4

Speculation.

I'd be -- yeah, I'd be

guessing.

5
6

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

M-hm.

Well, is -- is there some -- is

7

there some amount that you know or that you're --

8

you're confident saying that it -- that it -- the

9

difference exceeds?

10
11
12

A.

The difference exceeds?

I'm confident that

the difference exceeds 50 cents.
Q.

Have you seen any documents that show the

13

difference in the manufacturing cost between the

14

white version and the black version of the iPod

15

touch?

16

A.

17
18

I believe so.

I can't recall a specific

time or document, but I believe I have, yes.
Q.

Is -- is there some amount that you're

19

confident in saying that the cost difference is less

20

than?

21

A.

I'm pretty confident it's less than $5.

22

Q.

And are you able to bracket the cost

23

difference between the white version and the black

24

version any more narrowly than more than 50 cents

25

but less than $5?
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A.

No.

2

Q.

Why does the white version of the iPod

3

touch require more layers of ink than the black

4

version?

5

MR. DANIS:

6

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Speculation.

My understanding is that

7

individual layers of -- multiple layers of white ink

8

are required to provide -- to, in the finished

9

product, have the appropriate shade of white, the

10

target shade of white from ID that we'd like the

11

outside -- for the outside appearance -- outside of

12

the phone to -- or, sorry, of the touch to have.

13

Sorry.

14

That's unclear.
Too few layers of white ink would have

15

resulted in a grayish appearance.

16

additional layers of white, the outside appearance

17

becomes more white because of the increased opacity

18

of the ink.

19
20

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Try not pull on your

cord.

21
22

And with adding

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And is it also true that additional layers

23

of white ink are required to increase the opacity so

24

that light doesn't shine through the border region

25

that's created with the layers of ink?
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2

MR. DANIS:

Objection.

Speculation.

Vague

and ambiguous.

3

THE WITNESS:

I don't think that that's a

4

direct requirement of additional layers of white

5

ink.

6
7

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Well, is one of the reasons that additional

8

layers of white ink are used to create the border on

9

the white version of the iPod touch, some of that

10

light doesn't shine through border area?

11
12

MR. DANIS:

THE WITNESS:

Vague

I don't think that's the

specific reason, no.

15
16

Speculation.

and ambiguous.

13
14

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

So have you ever heard that that's one of

17

the reasons for using additional layers of white ink

18

on the white version?

19
20
21

A.

I haven't heard that as a reason for

additional layers of white ink.
Q.

What was the additional painting operation

22

on the housing that's used with the white version of

23

the iPod touch?

24
25

A.

It's a spray paint, clear spray paint.

It's applied to the outside edge of part of -- one
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of the housing parts.

2

Q.

What housing part is that clear spray --

3

A.

We call that part the --

4

Q.

I'm sorry.

I had a little pause there.

5

wasn't quite finished, so just let me ask a full

6

I

question.

7

A.

Sure.

8

Q.

What's the housing part that this clear

9

spray is applied to?

10

A.

We call the part the G-frame.

11

Q.

Is the G-frame on the exterior of the

12

product?

13

A.

It's both on the exterior and interior.

14

Q.

And is the clear spray applied to the

15

exterior of the G-frame?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Is it also applied to the interior part of

18

the G -- G-frame?

19

A.

It is applied, yeah -- yes.

20

Q.

And why is this clear spray applied to

21
22
23
24
25

the -- the G-frame?
A.

It's applied to the G-frame to prevent

staining of the white G-frame.
Q.

And is a clear spray like that applied to

the black version of the iPod touch?
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A.

No.

2

Q.

Why not?

No, it's not.

3

MR. DANIS:

4

THE WITNESS:

5

8

Speculation.

The -- the black G-frame does

not have a tendency to stain.

6
7

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

On the original iPhone, is -- is there an

area that's referred to as "the G-frame"?

9

A.

Not that I'm aware of.

10

Q.

I'm sorry.

11

What material is the G-frame

made out of on the iPod touch?

12

A.

I believe it's a nylon thermoplastic.

13

Q.

Is that a kind of resin?

14

A.

Nylon is the base resin, yeah.

15

Q.

And what are the two printing operations on

16

the inside of the housing that are done on the white

17

version of the iPod touch?

18

A.

There is one printing operation that is

19

black ink to reduce the transparency of the white

20

G-frame in local regions.

21

There's another that is black ink, also in

22

the region of the rear-facing camera, in order to

23

make the outward appearance of the white G-frame

24

black in that region.

25

Q.

And the first operation that you referred
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to, when black ink is -- is applied to reduce the

2

transparency of the G-frame, what's the reason for

3

wanting to reduce the transparency of the G-frame?

4

MR. DANIS:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Speculation.

We observed on some prototype

6

units that light coming from the LCD backlight could

7

travel through the white G-frame and be visible to a

8

user from the outside.

9
10
11

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

And what's -- what's the reason for

applying -- talking now about the second operation.

12

What's the reason for applying the black

13

ink on the G-frame in the area -- in the region of

14

the rear-facing camera?

15

A.

The -- the reason is that ID did not want

16

the user to be able to look into the region and see

17

the white G-frame, so they painted it black.

18

wanted the appearance of the region around the

19

camera to be black.

20

Q.

They

Is the thickness of the cover glass on the

21

white version of the iPod touch the same as the

22

thickness of the cover glass on the black version?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Does the application of the additional

25

layers of ink on the white version of the iPod touch
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increase the height of the Grape stack compared to

2

the black version?

3

A.

The -- it, frankly, depends on your

4

reference for measurement.

5

you -- if you could describe the -- what -- what's

6

the -- what you mean as the datum for the thickness

7

measurement.

So I'm not sure.

If

What's the zero point?

8

Q.

How does it differ based on -- on --

9

A.

In general, how does it differ?

The

10

additional ink -- the -- the glass material itself

11

is of the same thickness for the cover on both

12

types.

13

thickness of the glass and ink together.

14

The additional layers of ink increase the

The difference from the back of the ink to

15

the bottommost surface of the -- the backmost

16

surface of the display which compromises the Grape

17

module is identical to that on the black touch.

18

Q.

And so does the cover glass on the white

19

version of the iPod touch sit higher relative to the

20

edge of the device than on the black version?

21

A.

Yeah.

The white version, the glass sits

22

approximately 30 microns higher relative to the --

23

to the plastic G-frame than it does on the black

24

version.

25

Q.

And does -- does that -- does that fact
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have any impact on the failure rate of the glass in

2

drop testing?

3

A.

I don't believe -- I believe that in the

4

the end, the drop performance was very similar

5

between the two.

6

Q.

Is -- has there been any observed

7

difference in the failure rate of the cover glass on

8

the white version as compared to the black version

9

in drop testing?

10

A.

There may have been at different points in

11

time in the project.

12

the end of the project was comparable.

13

Q.

But the overall performance by

And was anything done over the course of

14

the project to reduce the failure rate of the cover

15

glass on the white version?

16

A.

I don't recall specific changes.

It was

17

something that we paid very close attention to, but

18

I don't recall any specific design changes.

19
20

MR. KIDMAN:

Let's mark the next document

as Exhibit 5.

21

(Marked for identification purposes,

22

Exhibit 5.)

23

MR. KIDMAN:

And for the record, Exhibit 5

24

is a multipage document Bates-numbered

25

APLNDC0002015123 through 2015125.
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Mr. Lynch, have you seen this document

before?
A.

I have a vague recollection.

I don't

remember it specifically, but ...
Q.

At the bottom of the first page, there's an

e-mail from you to Adam, dated March 24, 2010.

8

Do you see that?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And is the Adam that you're sending this

11

e-mail to Adam -- Adam Mittleman?

12

A.

Mittleman.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

Yes.

I believe so.

And do you recall having sent this

e-mail?

15

A.

Not specifically.

16

Q.

Do you have any reason to doubt that you

17

sent this e-mail on March 24, 2010?

18

A.

No, no reason to doubt it.

19

Q.

And if you move up the page, there's an

20

e-mail from Adam Mittleman to you, with a copy to

21

others.

22

Do you see that?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Do you recall having received this e-mail

25

from Adam Mittleman?
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A.

Again, not specifically.

2

Q.

Do you have any reason to doubt that you

3

received this e-mail from Adam Mittleman --

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

-- on March 26, 2010?

6

A.

No, I don't.

7

Q.

In Mr. Mittleman's e-mail to you, he says,

8

B, here's a rundown of the design and operational

9

issues associated with white ink.

10

Do you see that?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

And is the -- the third page of -- of the

13

e-mail, the rundown of design and operational issues

14

associated with white ink that Mr. Mittleman is

15

referring to?

16

A.

Yes, I think so.

17

Q.

Adam goes on in his e-mail to say, Danny

18

and Jody had a chat today, and it seems that Johnny

19

is mostly interested in white CG for K93, so the

20

same may be true for N81 as well.

21

Do you see that?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

And "K93" -- "K93" refers to the -- the

24
25

iPad; correct?
A.

Yes.
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Q.

In the next sentence of Mr. Mittleman's

2

e-mail he says, I'm still getting cost info for the

3

white frame and white home button, but the white CG

4

is about a buck coster adder.

5

Do you see that?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Does that refresh your recollection at all

8

as to the -- the cost difference between the white

9

version and the black version of the iPod touch?

10
11
12

A.

No.

I mean, I think this is a -- yeah.

No, it doesn't.
Q.

And when Mr. -- and when Mr. Mittleman says

13

the white CG is about a buck coster adder, do you

14

have any understanding of what he was referring to

15

there?

16

A.

I would interpret that to mean that -- that

17

his -- his estimate of additional cost for a white

18

cover glass is about a dollar with respect to the

19

black cover glass.

20

estimate.

21

Q.

Okay.

I don't know the origin of his

But that's just -- your

22

understanding is that he's just referring to the

23

additional cost for the white cover glass; correct?

24

A.

Correct.

25

Q.

And so that wouldn't include the -- the
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additional painting operations on the housing and

2

G-frame; is that correct?

3
4
5

A.

From this statement, I would interpret that

just to mean just the CG, just the cover glass.
Q.

If you look at the third page of Exhibit 5,

6

which is what Mr. Mittleman refers to as the rundown

7

of design and operational issues associated with

8

white ink, do you see that the first -- under the

9

heading "White N81," the first line says, Design

10

implications of white ink.

11

Do you see that?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And there are some -- some bullet points

14

below that.

15

UM thicker than black.

And the first one is, White ink is 35

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

What's -- what's UM?

18

A.

That's short for microns.

19

Q.

And the next bullet point says, Would

20

require growing the G-frame in Z by 35 UM to

21

maintain current CG proudness.

22
23

Do you know what he's referring to there?
A.

Yeah.

He's referring to the -- the

24

additional -- the additional ink thickness would

25

cause the glass to sit slightly higher in the
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product.

2

position of the G-frame with respect to the glass,

3

we would need to grow the G-frame by 35 microns.

4
5

Q.

And if we wanted to maintain the same

And in the version of the white N81 that

shipped, you didn't grow the G-frame; correct?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

And, instead, the cover glass just sits a

8

little prouder than the black version?

9

A.

That's right.

10

Q.

And then down below, it says, Operational

11

implications for white ink.

12

Do you see that?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And third bullet point is, Need to manage

15

two glass thicknesses, .80 UM for white, .83 UM for

16

black.

17

different glass thicknesses; is that correct?

18
19

And, in fact, you didn't need to manage two

MR. DANIS:

I'm sorry.

Can you read that

question back.

20

MR. KIDMAN:

Let me just ask a different --

21

different question because I think I -- now I think

22

I understand what this is saying and it supersedes

23

my question.

24
25

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

When he says, Need to manage two glass
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thicknesses, is he referring to the addition --

2

additional layers of ink on the white cover glass

3

increasing the thickness over the -- as compared to

4

the black version?

5

A.

No.

I think he's referring to a potential

6

third solution, which would be to reduce the

7

thickness of the -- of the white glass and to

8

compensate for the thickness of the ink.

9
10

Q.

And was that -- was that solution

implemented?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

And then the next bullet point says,

White CG is 80 cents to $1.05 more expensive.

14

Do you see that?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Does that refresh your recollection in any

17

way as to the additional cost for manufacturing the

18

white cover glass as compared to the black?

19

A.

20

This -MR. DANIS:

I'm sorry.

I don't think there

21

was a prior question to the witness on the cost of

22

white cover glass.

23

objection, but I -- I think you're asking --

24
25

So I don't know how to state the

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

Do you have any understanding as to the
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tests.

2

from other -- you know, other projects and other

3

uses.

4
5
6
7
8
9

Q.

And these are tests that I'm familiar with

And who was it that shared the -- the data

with you that's reflected here?
A.

I believe it was Chris Prest.

I think he

was the one who oversaw this testing, this effort.
Q.

Are you aware of any testing that's been

done on glass configurations where the corners of

10

the glass from the plan view are at a 90-degree

11

angle without -- without any radii?

12

A.

No, not that I remember.

13

Q.

The first through third generations of the

14

iPod nano used plastic for the top cover; correct?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

Do any versions of the iPod touch use

17

plastic for the top cover?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

And do all versions of the iPod touch use

20

glass as the material for the top cover?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Do you know, in connection with any version

23

of the iPod touch, whether any material other than

24

glass has been considered for the top cover?

25

A.

It's possible that in early -- early
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configurations of N45, the first touch, such as

2

the -- the configuration that you showed in the

3

image, that -- in the image in a prior exhibit, that

4

we may have considered plastic for -- for that type

5

of product.

6

definitively.

7

Q.

I don't recall the -- I don't recall

Do you have any understanding as to why

8

glass was selected as the material for the top cover

9

of each of the versions of the iPod touch that have

10
11

shipped?
A.

I recall the decision to use glass -- or

12

hearing of the decision to use glass on the

13

first-generation iPhone, and I believe that the

14

logic for that -- for that decision was applied to

15

the touch, although I don't recall -- you know, I

16

wasn't part of that decision.

17

I don't recall the specific timing when

18

that happened relative to where we were in the

19

development of N45.

20

Q.

And do you know what the logic was behind

21

selecting glass for the top cover of the -- of the

22

original iPhone?

23

A.

I understand from, you know, recollection

24

of discussions at the time and then also from, you

25

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that Steve Jobs advocated switching to it because of

2

its scratch resistance -- to glass because of its

3

scratch resistance.

4

Q.

And do you recall -- putting aside news

5

articles that you've subsequently read, do you

6

recall any discussions internally at Apple about

7

that being the logic behind selecting glass for the

8

top cover of the original iPhone?

9

A.

I recall speaking to Steve Zadesky about

10

it, sometime -- sometime shortly after, that we

11

learned -- or he had learned of that decision.

12

him -- he related to me a similar -- similar logic,

13

similar story.

14

Q.

What do you recall Mr. Zadesky saying?

15

A.

And

I recall him saying that -- that the --

16

that Steve Jobs felt that the scratch resistance of

17

the plastic was unacceptable and that the team

18

should switch to glass.

19

Q.

Do you recall any testing being done on

20

plastic top covers?

21

MR. DANIS:

22

25

Vague as to

"device."

23
24

Objection.

BY MR. KIDMAN:
Q.

For any version of the iPod touch or the

iPhone.
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A.

I don't recall any touch relating --

2

related testing -- any touch-related testing.

3

recall tests -- I -- I recall that there was -- I

4

believe that there was testing at the time of the

5

original iPhone during the development of that

6

product.

7

Q.

I do

When you say you don't recall any

8

touch-related testing, do you mean you don't recall

9

any testing of a plastic cover in connection with

10

the iPod touch?

11

A.

Yes, exactly.

12

Q.

Okay.

What do you recall about the testing

13

of plastic for the top cover in connection with the

14

iPhone?

15

A.

I just have vague recollections of hearing

16

about different materials that were trialed and, you

17

know, hearing hardness result numbers from those

18

plastics.

19

level of detail, but I'm just aware that that

20

testing was happening.

21

Q.

I don't -- I don't recall any -- any

When you say you recall hearing about

22

hardness result numbers, what does -- what does that

23

refer to?

24
25

A.

Hardness is a -- is a material property,

something you can measure.
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