O'Bannon, Jr. v. National Collegiate Athletic Association et al

Filing 237

Administrative Motion to File Under Seal Defendant NCAA's Deposition Designations filed by National Collegiate Athletic Association. (Attachments: #1 Declaration of Jeslyn A. Miller, #2 Proposed Order, #3 NCAA's Deposition Designations, #4 Exhibit A, #5 Exhibit B, #6 Exhibit C, #7 Exhibit D, #8 Exhibit E, #9 Exhibit F, #10 Exhibit G, #11 Exhibit H, #12 Exhibit I, #13 Exhibit J, #14 Exhibit K, #15 Exhibit L, #16 Exhibit M, #17 Exhibit N, #18 Exhibit O, #19 Exhibit P, #20 Exhibit Q, #21 Exhibit R, #22 Exhibit S, #23 Exhibit T, #24 Exhibit U, #25 Exhibit V - REDACTED, #26 Exhibit V - SEALED, #27 Exhibit W, #28 Exhibit X, #29 Exhibit Y, #30 Exhibit Z, #31 Exhibit AA, #32 Exhibit BB)(Miller, Jeslyn) (Filed on 6/23/2014) Modified on 6/24/2014 (kcS, COURT STAFF).

EXHIBIT O

IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

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Page 1

· · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
· · · · · ·NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
· · · · · · · · · OAKLAND DIVISION
·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
·In Re:· NCAA Student-Athlete Name· · :· Case No.
·and Likeness Licensing Litigation· · :· 09-CV-1967
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · :· CW
·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x

·6
·7
·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·*· · *· · *
·9· · · · · · · Videotaped Deposition of ROBERT
10· ·McCORMICK, taken by the Defendant, Wednesday,
11· ·May 15, 2013, held at the offices of Hausfeld LLP,
12· ·1700 K Street, Washington, DC, commencing at
13· ·9:13 a.m. before Jamie I. Moskowitz, a Shorthand
14· ·Reporter and Notary Public.
15· · · · · · · · · · · ·*· ·*· ·*
16
17
18
19
20
21

Objection, 702. Plaintiffs object to the entirety of the NCAA's designation of
Dr. McCormick's deposition. Plaintiffs have not sought to elicit testimony
from Dr. McCormick at trial. Moreover, the bulk of the NCAA's designations
are to questions and answers beyond the scope of Dr. McCormick's expert
reports and expertise, as Dr. McCormick has repeatedly noted at his
deposition. That testimony is inadmissible and should be stricken.

22
23
24
25

Designation Color Key
Blue = NCAA Affirm Desigs.
Orange = Pls' Counter Desigs.
Fuchsia = NCAA Rebuttal Desigs
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 6

·1· · · · · · · · ·MS. FAHMY:· Christina Fahmy,
·2· · · · Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton on behalf of the
·3· · · · Collegiate Licensing Company.
·4· · · · · · · · ·MR. PAYNTER:· Stuart Paynter for the
·5· · · · plaintiff's side.
·6· · · · · · · · ·MR. ARMSTRONG:· Robert Armstrong for
·7· · · · plaintiffs.
·8· · · · · · · · ·MR. HAUSFELD:· Michael Hausfeld for
·9· · · · the plaintiffs.
10· · · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Thank you.
11· · · · · · · · ·Will the court reporter please swear
12· · · · in the witness.
13· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·*· · *· · *
14· · · · · · ·ROBERT McCORMICK, after having been first
15· · · · duly sworn, was examined and testified as
16· · · · follows:
17· ·EXAMINATION BY
18· ·MR. CURTNER:
19· · · · Q· · · · Good morning.
20· · · · A· · · · Good morning, sir.
21· · · · Q· · · · Would you state your full name for the
22· ·record, please?
23· · · · A· · · · Robert Exley McCormick.
24· · · · Q· · · · Should I call you Dr. McCormick?
25· · · · A· · · · Bobby is fine if you wish.
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 7

·1· · · · Q· · · · All right.· When were you retained in
·2· ·this matter?
·3· · · · A· · · · Sometime in March of this year.
·4· · · · Q· · · · When were you first contacted about -·5· · · · · · · · ·MR. CURTNER:· Did somebody just join
·6· · · · or leave?
·7· ·BY MR. CURTNER:
·8· · · · Q· · · · When were you first contacted about
·9· ·potentially being retained?
10· · · · A· · · · Sometime in March of this year.
11· · · · Q· · · · And who contacted you?
12· · · · A· · · · Bruce Wecker, I believe it was.
13· · · · Q· · · · And was that the first you knew about
14· ·this case?
15· · · · A· · · · No, I was aware of the case from the
16· ·press.
17· · · · Q· · · · Had you had any contact with the case
18· ·or the filings in the case other than what you read
19· ·in the press?
20· · · · A· · · · No, I had not.
21· · · · Q· · · · Had you spoken to any lawyers about
22· ·this case prior to March of 2013?
23· · · · A· · · · None of the lawyers in this case.
24· · · · Q· · · · Had you spoken to any of the
25· ·economists or experts in this case prior to that?
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 222

·1· · · · Q· · · · I mean the sports that we're talking
·2· ·about here, the so-called major college football and
·3· ·basketball, whatever that means.
·4· · · · A· · · · What's on the horizontal axis in the
·5· ·diagram you're asking me to hypothetically draw?
·6· · · · Q· · · · Yeah, quantity.
·7· · · · A· · · · Quantity of what?
·8· · · · Q· · · · And price?
·9· · · · A· · · · Of what?
10· · · · Q· · · · Quantity of whatever unit of input you
11· ·want to talk about.· The input of labor.
12· · · · A· · · · Well, it wouldn't -- didn't -- so
13· ·you're asking me what the demand for labor looks
14· ·like?· I don't understand the question.· I need
15· ·to -Objection
O, V, 402

16· · · · Q· · · · I'm asking you what the supply of
17· ·student athlete labor looks like?
18· · · · A· · · · Well, what I say in my paper is and
19· ·what others have said in this case is that it's very
20· ·inelastic, maybe perfectly inelastic; and that's not
21· ·my opinion, that's what others have said.
22· · · · Q· · · · You quote Donald Remy's letter to Joe

Objection
402

23· ·Nocera on that subject and say you agree with it,
24· ·right?
25· · · · A· · · · Did I say I agree with it?
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 223

·1· · · · Q· · · · Yeah, I think you say you find
·2· ·yourself in substantial agreement.
·3· · · · A· · · · Okay, "substantial" is the word I was
·4· ·looking for you to say.
·5· · · · Q· · · · It's at footnote 14 on page 12.

Objection
402

·6· · · · A· · · · I note in some substantial agreement.
·7· ·So there was two qualifiers there, but, yeah.
·8· · · · Q· · · · "That the supply of talent is quite
·9· ·inelastic, perhaps nearly perfectly inelastic as he
10· ·suggests;" do you see that?
11· · · · A· · · · I do.· That's what I wrote.
12· · · · Q· · · · And if you were to draw that, that
13· ·would mean that the supply function would be a flat
14· ·line parallel with the horizontal axis?
15· · · · A· · · · No, sir, it wouldn't be.
16· · · · Q· · · · All right.· What would it look like?
17· · · · A· · · · It would be a vertical line.
18· · · · Q· · · · At the quantity taken, right?
19· · · · A· · · · Yes.
20· · · · Q· · · · Okay.· So it would be a vertical line
21· ·at the quantity taken which would translate into
22· ·meaning that you would get that same quantity
23· ·supplied without regard to the price?
24· · · · A· · · · That's correct -- that's what he says,
25· ·and I note that I'm in substantial agreement with
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 224

·1· ·him that it is quite inelastic, which is less than
·2· ·perfectly inelastic, and perhaps nearly perfectly
·3· ·inelastic.· Perhaps nearly perfectly inelastic, as
·4· ·he suggests.
·5· · · · Q· · · · Which means that you could fill up

Objection
402

·6· ·your football and basketball teams even if you
·7· ·offered less than a grant-in-aid, correct?
·8· · · · A· · · · That's the implication of that
·9· ·statement, that's correct.
10· · · · Q· · · · And would you agree with that?

Objection
702, 402

11· · · · A· · · · I'd have to put myself to more careful
12· ·thought, but my first reaction to that is yes.· I'd
13· ·want to think more carefully about it, because I
14· ·haven't put myself to that question, but that's -15· ·what I'm not prepared to say without thinking about
16· ·it is whether that line goes all the way down at
17· ·zero.· But I think it does, but I want to think more
18· ·carefully about that.
19· · · · Q· · · · We could agree that there's probably
20· ·some players for whom they would not go to college
21· ·if they didn't have some aid because they couldn't
22· ·afford it, right?
23· · · · A· · · · I'm not prepared to say that because I
24· ·haven't put myself to that question.· I don't know
25· ·the answer to that question.
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 226

·1· ·close to such, and even though there would be some
·2· ·players who would enter and some who would exit if
·3· ·the compensation level were to vary?
·4· · · · A· · · · Well, let's say what economic theory
·5· ·says and then we don't have to disagree.· If the
·6· ·line goes all the way down to zero, perfectly
·7· ·inelastic, you get the same number no matter what
·8· ·you pay.· If it's less than perfectly inelastic and
·9· ·it goes all the way down to zero, then there would
10· ·be some players who come in if you raise the price
11· ·high enough and some players that drop out if you
12· ·lower the price.· How many that is I think is very
13· ·small but -- and I -- I'm not prepared to say that
14· ·the line is perfectly inelastic.· I think really
15· ·says -- my interpretation is he says it's perfectly
16· ·inelastic and I think that it is -- I quote myself,
17· ·I'm in substantial agreement and perhaps nearly
18· ·perfectly inelastic, so there might be a very small
19· ·amount of adjustment.
20· · · · Q· · · · So it could be substantially perfectly
21· ·inelastic but you could still have some
22· ·substitution; you might have different people in
23· ·there, you still would fill up your teams -24· · · · A· · · · But -25· · · · Q· · · · -- at zero or at a hundred thousand
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 227

·1· ·dollars?
·2· · · · A· · · · If it's virtually perfectly
·3· ·inelastic -- there will be none.· If it's perfectly
·4· ·inelastic there will be no shifting and if it's less
·5· ·than perfectly inelastic there'd be a little bit.
·6· · · · Q· · · · Okay.
·7· · · · A· · · · And it's very nearly perfectly
·8· ·inelastic, probably.· I mean so -- the question of
·9· ·how much shifting there would be is sort of a gut
10· ·check; and I think that it's widely held by the
11· ·testimony of everybody here, which I'm not in
12· ·disagreement with, that it's very nearly perfectly
13· ·inelastic.
14· · · · Q· · · · But you certainly agree as well, do
15· ·you not, sir, that the identity of the individuals
16· ·on teams would change if the price were zero on the
17· ·one hand and a hundred thousand dollars on the other
18· ·hand?
19· · · · A· · · · No, I don't -- I'm not testifying to
20· ·that.
21· · · · Q· · · · Are you saying that people would not
22· ·make different decisions in the real world between
23· ·zero and a hundred thousand dollars?
24· · · · A· · · · If the supply curve is perfectly
25· ·inelastic that's what it says.· The price doesn't
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 234

·1· · · · Q· · · · Do you know of any things that you
·2· ·would call a cartel outside of industries that buy
·3· ·and sell commodity-type goods, like oil and oranges
·4· ·and things like that?
·5· · · · A· · · · Yeah, sure.· I mean there's -- there's
·6· ·a lot of legal cartels where entry is limited and
·7· ·output's restricted.· In agriculture, for instance,
·8· ·the government sanctions a cartel.
·9· · · · Q· · · · But again, those are commodity goods?
10· · · · A· · · · Oh, I thought you asked me about
11· ·commodities.
12· · · · Q· · · · No, I'm asking you if know of any that
13· ·do not involve commodity goods?
14· · · · A· · · · Would you consider education to be a
15· ·non-commodity good?· I don't know what you mean by
16· ·non-commodity -17· · · · Q· · · · Yeah, I think I would consider
18· ·education to be non-commodity good?
19· · · · A· · · · Okay.· Yes, I'm -- yes.
20· · · · Q· · · · You think education's a cartel?

Objection
402

21· · · · A· · · · I think there's some medical
22· ·education, for instance.· There's a medical
23· ·education cartel.· And a legal education cartel.
24· · · · Q· · · · In terms of what?· How do you think a

Objection
O, V, 402,
702

25· ·medical education cartel works?
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 235

Objection
402
702

·1· · · · A· · · · You have to attend a AMA sanctioned
·2· ·medical school in order to be board certified.
·3· ·There's limits on who can start a medical school and
·4· ·there's lots of restrictions there.· Depends on the
·5· ·study -·6· · · · Q· · · · And so a -·7· · · · A· · · · Look, I'm just telling you what the
·8· ·literature says.· I'm not testifying -- you
·9· ·understand I'm not testifying.· You aren't asking me
10· ·questions about my report.
11· · · · Q· · · · My question was about your views
12· ·but -13· · · · A· · · · Well, my views about life in general
14· ·don't have anything to do with my testimony in this
15· ·case.
16· · · · · · · · ·My testimony in this case is about the
17· ·expert reports of defendants' experts and Dr. Noll.
18· ·I mean I'll talk about these cartels all that you
19· ·want to, but I'm not going to testify to them and
20· ·they shouldn't be considered part of the record for
21· ·what Dr. McCormick is testifying to.

Objection
402
702

22· · · · Q· · · · So I'm just trying to test your
23· ·opinions by finding out whether you know of other
24· ·examples of things that you think fit into the
25· ·cartel category that involve something other than
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 236

Objection
402
702

·1· ·commodities, like agricultural products or oil?
·2· · · · A· · · · Well, I just gave you medical and
·3· ·legal education.
·4· · · · Q· · · · Yes, you did.· Are there any others?
·5· · · · A· · · · Well, the Ivy -- the Ivy -- you know,
·6· ·the Ivy case that I cite.
·7· · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· I'm sorry?
·8· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The Ivy league case that
·9· · · · I cite.
10· ·BY MR. CURTNER:
11· · · · Q· · · · And we're going to talk about that in
12· ·a minute.· Any others?
13· · · · A· · · · I'm sure there's others, but again,
14· ·I'd have to put myself to thinking about it, but...
15· · · · · · · · ·I'm sure there's others.
16· · · · Q· · · · Would you agree that it's hard to have
17· ·a successful cartel when the product in question has
18· ·a variety of characteristics and is sold on
19· ·something other than a clear unit in exchange for a
20· ·clear dollar price?
21· · · · A· · · · That's too hard a question to ask out
22· ·of context.· I literally need -- you know, I don't
23· ·want to testify about that without some context.

I

24· ·mean there's general guidelines and rules about
25· ·these kind of things, but I don't want to be
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 240

·1· ·I'm not going to testify about it.· I didn't study
·2· ·it for purposes of testifying in this case.
·3· · · · Q· · · · But you do agree that these
·4· ·nonmonetary services to student athletes would be
·5· ·affected if the compensation levels to student
·6· ·athletes for their performance were to change?
·7· · · · A· · · · No.· I don't agree with that
·8· ·statement.· To the extent that I have an opinion
·9· ·about it, I declare what we've already discussed -10· ·let me find it for you.
11· · · · Q· · · · Go ahead, I'm sorry.
12· · · · A· · · · Earlier in this testimony we discussed
13· ·the flypaper effect and the like.· I think I want to
14· ·harken back to my testimony there -15· · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· I want to...
16· · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Harken back to my
17· · · · testimony there and just repeat it is the
18· · · · answer to your question.· And I'll find it for
19· · · · if you'd like me to, but where I discuss that
20· · · · in my paper.
21· ·BY MR. CURTNER:
Objection
402

22· · · · Q· · · · I remember you using the term
23· ·"flypaper effect" but I'm not quite sure how it
24· ·applies to this question?
25· · · · A· · · · It applies to this question in the
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 241

Objection
402

·1· ·following way.· There's a literature about donations
·2· ·let's say from the State of South Carolina to
·3· ·Clemson University.· If those increase is there a
·4· ·concomitant to reduction in donations by donors and
·5· ·vice versa?
·6· · · · · · · · ·So the question of flypaper effect is
·7· ·entities that receive gifts, do they really receive
·8· ·gifts, because if there is an alternative source of
·9· ·support, does the alternative source of support dry
10· ·up because they already got the gift, and that's
11· ·what that literature is about.
12· · · · · · · · ·And it's germane in this case, if you
13· ·take the position that I'm testifying to here that
14· ·the effects are mostly to transfer the rents to the
15· ·university, and then how that money gets spent is a
16· ·more complex question that's not relevant to the
17· ·inquiry here, that's what I say.· It's plausible and
18· ·indeed quite likely that what it does is it filters
19· ·back, that it's free money to the university which
20· ·then would be made up for by increased state and
21· ·private support where the rent's absent.· That's the
22· ·underlying theory.
23· · · · Q· · · · I see.
24· · · · · · · · ·And so because this money would be
25· ·made up for from these other sources potentially,
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 242

Objection
402

·1· ·you're saying there might not be any change in
·2· ·facilities and recruiting and stadiums and things
·3· ·like that?
·4· · · · A· · · · Correct.· The reason the stadium is
·5· ·big is because it fits the business plan of the
·6· ·university.
·7· · · · Q· · · · And it satisfies customers and
·8· ·attracts customers, right?
·9· · · · A· · · · It's part of the business plan of the
10· ·university.· You know, again, the university makes a
11· ·complex business decision about what its product mix
12· ·is going to be, and the size of the stadium and the
13· ·extent of the athletic program are a part of that
14· ·complex business decision.· And I'm suggesting to
15· ·the Court that these rents flow to the university
16· ·and likely therefore just simply lead to less
17· ·external support than would otherwise be present
18· ·because they're free money and therefore the donors
19· ·don't feel the need to step up.
20· · · · Q· · · · Which is another way of saying that it
21· ·satisfies the alumni base or the public base and
22· ·makes them happier than they otherwise would be,
23· ·right?
24· · · · A· · · · Because they got free money.
25· · · · Q· · · · Because they got a sport at a -Huseby, Inc.
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IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE NAME, ET AL.
Robert McCormick on 05/15/2013

Page 369

·1· · · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E
·2
·3· · · · · · ·I, Jamie I. Moskowitz, a Shorthand
·4· ·(Stenotype) Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby
·5· ·certify that the foregoing Deposition, of the
·6· ·witness, ROBERT McCORMICK, taken at the time and
·7· ·place aforesaid, is a true and correct transcription
·8· ·of my shorthand notes.
·9· · · · · · ·I further certify that I am neither
10· ·counsel for nor related to any party to said action,
11· ·nor in any way interested in the result or outcome
12· ·thereof.
13· · · · · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
14· ·hand this 15th day of May 2013.
15· · · · · · · ·___________________________________
16· · · · · · · ·Jamie Ilyse Moskowitz
· · · · · · · · ·License No. XI01658
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