Campbell et al v. Facebook Inc.

Filing 199

NOTICE by Facebook Inc. Joint Notice of Refiling of Documents Accompanying Class Certification Briefs and Evidentiary Objections (Attachments: # 1 Ex. 1 - Replacement for Dkt. 178-1, # 2 Ex. 2 - Replacement for Dkt. 183-4, # 3 Ex. 3 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-1, # 4 Ex. 4 - Replacement for Dkt. 184-3, # 5 Ex. 5 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-2, # 6 Ex. 6 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-3, # 7 Ex. 7 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-4, # 8 Ex. 8 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-5, # 9 Ex. 9 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-6, # 10 Ex. 10 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-7, # 11 Ex. 11 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-10, # 12 Ex. 12 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-11, # 13 Ex. 13 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-12, # 14 Ex. 14 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-13, # 15 Ex. 15 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-14, # 16 Ex. 16 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-15, # 17 Ex. 17 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-16, # 18 Ex. 18 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-17, # 19 Ex. 19 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-18, # 20 Ex. 20 - Replacement for Dkt. 179-20, # 21 Ex. 21 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-2, # 22 Ex. 22 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-3, # 23 Ex. 23 - Replacement for Dkt. 184-9, # 24 Ex. 24 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-7, # 25 Ex. 25 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-9, # 26 Ex. 26 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-12, # 27 Ex. 27 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-17, # 28 Ex. 28 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-18, # 29 Ex. 29 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-19, # 30 Ex. 30 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-20, # 31 Ex. 31 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-21, # 32 Ex. 32 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-22, # 33 Ex. 33 - Replacement for Dkt. 180-23, # 34 Ex. 34 - Replacement for Dkt. 178-5)(Chorba, Christopher) (Filed on 6/15/2016)

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EXHIBIT 23 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 OAKLAND DIVISION 4 __________________________ 5 MATTHEW CAMPBELL, )Case No. 6 MICHAEL HURLEY, and )C 13-05996 PJH (MEJ) 7 DAVID SHADPOUR ) 8 Plaintiffs ) 9 vs. ) 10 FACEBOOK, INC. ) 11 Defendants ) 12 ___________________________ 13 14 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 15 16 Videotaped Deposition of Jennifer Golbeck 17 Washington, D.C. 18 December 16, 2015 19 9:03 a.m. 20 21 Reported by: Bonnie L. Russo 22 Job No. 2196773 23 24 25 PAGES 1 - 357 Page 1 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 you looking at or opining on? A. So I looked at two versions of this 3 guy's -- the fraudulent guy's Web sites -- he 4 had two Web sites -- and basically just said 5 the name of Equity Trust Company didn't appear 6 on those Web sites. 7 Q. When you refer to the Internet 8 archive, is that the same as the Wayback 9 Machine? 10 A. It is. 11 Q. Okay. 12 13 14 15 16 17 Is that something you rely upon in -- in your work? A. Pretty -- I use it pretty frequently. Q. Is it pretty -- do you find it to be fairly reliable? A. It's -- yeah, for what it is, right? 18 It's definitely not a complete archive of 19 everything that's out there, but the copies of 20 things that they do have are accurate. 21 And -- and I -- this is, again, 22 totally outside the area of my expertise 23 legally, but I think -- my understanding is 24 that they actually have said that legally it 25 can be assumed as true that, if something was Page 20 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 archived on March 1st, that that absolutely was 2 there on March 1st. 3 in that way. 4 Q. So it seems reliable to me Other than the expert reports and 5 testimony we've talked about, is there any 6 other -- are there any other expert reports or 7 testimony that you've ever given? 8 A. No. There are other cases that I've 9 been invited to participate in, especially 10 patent cases, but ones that I've declined. 11 12 Q. Have you ever served as a nontestifying consultant in a -- in a lawsuit? 13 A. So those -- 14 Q. Other than the E. Stephanie and -- 15 you'll have to remind me of the name of the 16 other one. 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Sherry's Dance Studio. 19 A. -- I think -- 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. -- is what that was. 22 23 24 25 Sherry's Dance Studio, I -- Those I would count in there. Other than those, I don't -- I don't think so. Q. If you -- in the instances when you've declined to work in a patent case, why Page 21 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you observed people with 3 differing degrees of knowledge -- and here I'm 4 talking about social network users -- regarding 5 sort of the collection and processing of their 6 data by the social network? 7 8 A. Yeah. There's vastly different understandings. 9 Q. Why do you think that is? 10 A. It's really complicated, you know. 11 It -- and I think it's hard even for people who 12 are trained in that space to -- to really 13 understand what's happening because its 14 relatively opaque. 15 I have been surprised at times on -- 16 on what data is made available say to third 17 parties. 18 about that, right? And I spend all my time learning 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. That -- kind of how data gets out. 21 So I say in a lot of these talks, like if I 22 didn't know, like literally no one on earth can 23 be expected to know because it's my full-time 24 job, and I'm one of the experts on it. 25 So, you know, it's complicated. And Page 93 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 then there's people with varying degrees of how 2 interested they are in tracking this down -- 3 Q. Uh-huh. 4 A. -- right? I think it's analogous to 5 like terms of service, right? 6 Most people don't. 7 that gives you a big difference in what you 8 understand. 9 Q. I read them. And, you know, that's -- Would you agree with me that some 10 people understand that, when they are 11 interacting with a -- with a Web site, that 12 there are various electronic processes 13 happening in order to render the site and, you 14 know, basically make the site run, some people 15 are sort of aware of that, and others don't 16 have a clue? 17 18 MR. RUDOLPH: Vague. 19 Objection. Form. Compound. THE WITNESS: I think that's true, 20 that there's varying levels of understanding 21 that people have on how that works. 22 23 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Have you observed differing degrees 24 of consent from users for collection and use of 25 their data? Page 94 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 general is -- I find it's much more difficult 2 to use. 3 There are certainly more people with 4 public profiles on Facebook, but it's a lot 5 harder to find them in the way they can be 6 found on Twitter or Pinterest, for example. 7 8 Q. 11 So tell me briefly what the thesis was of the -- of the TED talk. 9 10 Okay. A. Oh. I've never thought of it that Q. Or maybe not -- "thesis" is the way. 12 wrong word, but the -- the point you were 13 making. 14 A. I think -- you know, talking about 15 what people know and what they don't, hardly 16 anyone who hasn't seen my TED talk knows that 17 these kind of person- -- private personal 18 attributes can be inferred about them from what 19 they're doing online. 20 And the purpose of the TED talk was 21 really to kind of explain the vary powerful 22 things that we can do with this technology and 23 get people thinking about the implications. 24 25 Q. And one of the things, I think -- you know, forgive me if I'm getting this Page 100 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 wrong -- but you discuss with homophily? 2 A. Yes. You got it right. 3 Q. What is -- what -- you may have to 4 give the court reporter the spelling of that 5 one. 6 7 But what is -- what is that exactly? A. Yeah. So homophily, 8 H-O-M-O-P-H-I-L-Y, is a concept from sociology 9 actually that basically birds of a father flock 10 together, that we tend to be friends with 11 people who share our traits more than people 12 randomly pulled from the general population 13 would share our traits. 14 So you're right; you're friends with 15 rich people. 16 friends tend to be poorly educated. 17 to race, sexual orientation, income, education, 18 kind of across the board. 19 If you're poorly educated, your It applies Not that all of your friends are 20 like that, but your traits are more common in 21 your friends than they are in the general 22 population. 23 Q. And does this -- is this sort of -- 24 is this the phenomenon that allows a researcher 25 like yourself to look at seemingly random data, Page 101 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 like what kind of fries you like, and then make 2 some sort of -- and I'm phrasing this really 3 badly -- but draw an inference about it based 4 upon attributes that you wouldn't think would 5 correlate with that? 6 A. Sometimes. 7 Q. Not a good question. 8 A. So in the curly fries example in the 9 talk, which you were just talking about -- 10 Q. Yeah. 11 A. -- you know, I kind of hypothesize 12 that homophily was one of the things that play 13 there. 14 those algorithms -- Sometimes it's used very directly in 15 Q. Uh-huh. 16 A. -- where they're relying on that 17 basically as the entirety. 18 role in a lot of those algorithms, though 19 sometimes it's much less explicit. 20 21 22 Q. I think it plays a Is homophily at all relevant to the organization of social networks? A. In -- so are you asking could a 23 social network organize around that principle, 24 or does it emerge in social networks? 25 Q. I guess more the latter. Page 102 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I think it's true. I mean the 2 principle says these are the kinds of people we 3 tend to choose as friends, right? 4 liberal, I will tend to choose other liberal 5 people as my friends. 6 If I'm a And so, in that case, it can 7 influence how a social network forms. 8 find out some guy is a ranging racist, I may 9 unfriend him on Facebook, and that affects the 10 If I network. 11 So that -- that could be a way 12 homophily is considered, its play in 13 influencing the structure of the network. 14 Q. 15 graph. 16 17 Earlier you talked about social Remind me what you meant by that? A. Social graph is just a -- a term to 18 refer to people and their connections to one 19 another. 20 21 22 23 Q. And generally how is the data in a social graph organized? A. Like from a computing perspective or from a mathematical perspective? 24 Q. I think a computing perspective. 25 A. So there it really depends. So from Page 103 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 the mathematical perspective, it tends to be 2 represented in a graph structure, which is a 3 mathematical concept -- 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- and to tease into their 6 connections to one another. 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. Com- -- computationally, you could 9 store that in a relational database. There's 10 also graph-based databases that -- that are 11 network-based instead of relational. 12 really depends on the implementation. 13 14 15 16 17 Q. Uh-huh. So it Do you know if Facebook has a social graph? A. I mean they certainly have people connected to other people. Q. Uh-huh. And is that something -- do 18 you know if there are other things that go into 19 their social graph? 20 A. Well, I would just want to be 21 careful about terminology here, because 22 Facebook has a thing that they call "the social 23 graph" -- 24 Q. Right. 25 A. -- which is different from the kind Page 104 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 of generic way I'm using the term. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. So Facebook's certainly has more 4 information about people and their connections 5 than simply the fact that Alice and Bob are 6 connected as friends. 7 that. 8 9 Q. They have more data than What kind of -- what kind of data do you -- I mean when you said Facebook has a -- 10 has something they call "the social graph," 11 what is your understanding of what that is in 12 the context of Facebook? 13 A. So Facebook's social graph, my 14 understanding is it's how they refer to 15 basically the way that they store all of the 16 kind of network-structured data within their 17 systems. 18 So it would include -- I believe it 19 includes the profile information about people, 20 all the data about people, information about 21 their connections to other people. 22 But I think the social graph -- 23 Facebook social graph also includes data about 24 connections between other entities within 25 Facebook. So, for example, pages that I Page 105 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 like -- 2 Q. Right. 3 A. -- would be part of Facebook's 4 5 6 social graph. Q. Do you think the Facebook social graph is valuable? 7 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 9 "valuable"? 10 11 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. 12 13 Vague. Well, does it have monetary value? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Lacks foundation. 14 THE WITNESS: I've -- 15 MR. RUDOLPH: Vague. 16 THE WITNESS: I've got like no 17 expertise in the monetary value of these 18 things. 19 BY MR. JESSEN: 20 Q. Understood. 21 A. So I'm not quite sure how to answer. 22 Q. Okay. Just more like in the 23 abstract, talking about social graphs, like -- 24 well, I guess if you were -- strike that. 25 Do you know where the data in Page 106 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Facebook's social graph is stored? 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 4 "where"? 5 6 7 Vague. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Like in a database or a particular computer science structure? 8 A. I know -- 9 Q. A system. 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Go ahead. 12 A. I know they have a system called 13 TAO -- 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. -- which I believe stands for "The Sorry. 16 Objects and Associations," which is one 17 abstraction that they use to store that data. 18 There are databases that back that. 19 Q. 20 T-A-O? 21 A. What's your understanding of TAO, I think I basically just gave you 22 the bulk of it. 23 blog post that kind of describes TAO, which 24 I've read a number of times. 25 There's a Facebook engineering So I have that kind of high-level Page 107 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 understanding of the fact that it stores data 2 with that structure that the abstraction 3 presumably allows them to compute with it in a 4 more efficient manner. 5 Q. Is it your understanding that 6 everything stored in TAO is the social graph -- 7 the Facebook social graph? 8 9 A. Do you mean that, if it's not in TAO, it's not part of the social graph? 10 This is a -- it's a hard question to 11 answer because where you draw the line is 12 fuzzy. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. Right? 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Yeah. 17 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry. We should probably switch the... 19 MR. JESSEN: Okay. 20 break, and we'll let him... 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Let's take a 22 Off the record at 11:13. 23 This is the end of Media Unit No. 1. 24 (A short recess was taken.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at Page 108 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 11:31. 2 3 This is the beginning of Media Unit 2 in the deposition of Dr. Jennifer Golbeck. 4 BY MR. JESSEN: 5 6 Q. Dr. Golbeck, are you familiar with object-oriented programming? 7 A. I am. 8 Q. What is that? 9 A. It's a category of programming 10 languages that have the ability and I would say 11 are centered around the ability to create 12 objects. 13 Q. 14 those? 15 A. Oh, I don't think I could list them 17 Q. Well, let me -- 18 A. Java is a big one. 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. Cplusplus. 21 Q. What about PHP? 22 A. I would call PHP scripting language, 16 23 What programming languages are all. not a object-oriented programming language. 24 Q. What's the difference? 25 A. You probably can create objects in Page 109 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 PHP, but it's not kind of the primacy of what 2 the language is built around. 3 4 Q. Uh-huh. What is the significance of objects in object-oriented programming? 5 A. They're very significant. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I'm sorry. 8 I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. 9 Q. 10 they play? 11 A. Yeah. I mean -- well, what role do It's a way of representing data. 12 It's basically a more complex data structure. 13 Object-oriented programming languages have 14 natural built-in support for working with those 15 that would be hard to develop yourself in a 16 non-object-oriented programming language. 17 Q. Would it be possible to create a 18 program in an object-oriented language that 19 does not create objects? 20 A. Depends on the language. 21 Q. What about cplusplus? 22 A. Cplusplus you can do it without 23 creating any objects. 24 Q. Is that common? 25 A. I don't feel like I'm expert enough Page 110 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 on all the programming languages out there at 2 this point to be able to say. 3 4 5 6 Q. Okay. What about Java; could you do it with Java? A. Java you have to create a class, which is the representation of an object. 7 Q. Can you use objects with PHP? 8 A. I believe that there is a way that 9 10 you can use objects in PHP, yes. Q. You've reviewed some of -- and we're 11 going to get into this in more detail, but you 12 reviewed some of the Facebook source code -- 13 A. I did. 14 Q. -- as part of your expert report. 15 Would you agree with me that the 16 code you reviewed was written in an 17 object-oriented language? 18 A. So it was written in PHP, and there 19 are objects in it. 20 there are some kind of deep computer "sciencey" 21 things going on here that are -- that I just 22 don't know about from like the theory of 23 programming languages perspective. 24 25 My hesitation is just that So I agree that it's in PHP. And I agree that there are objects in it. Page 111 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Uh-huh. But you wouldn't consider 2 the PHP code that you reviewed of Facebook to 3 be object-oriented? 4 A. I think it would be fair to call it 5 object-oriented. 6 know if a programming languages theorist in 7 computer science would say that PHP is an 8 object-oriented programming language. 9 don't know. 10 Q. Okay. My hesitation is that I don't I just Would you agree that, in a 11 software that is written in an object-oriented 12 programming language, essentially all data is 13 stored in objects? 14 A. I don't know that I can agree with 15 that. 16 and how you have it written. 17 I think it depends on the implementation Q. Well, would you agree that software 18 written in an object-oriented language 19 typically stores data in objects? 20 A. Probably. I think the reasoning 21 that people might select an object-oriented 22 programming language is to store data in 23 objects. 24 25 Q. And does that doing -- does that -- doing that have certain efficiencies? Page 112 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 A. Totally depends on the implementation. Q. Okay. Would you agree that, in 4 object-oriented programming, creating and 5 storing objects from data received is a 6 fundamental aspect of how that type of 7 programming operates? 8 9 10 A. Can you just repeat that question, please. Q. 11 Yeah. Sure. Would you agree that, in 12 object-oriented programming, creating and 13 storing objects from data received is a 14 fundamental aspect of how that type of 15 programming operates? 16 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 18 "data received"? 19 20 21 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, what is -- I think you said earlier objects represent things. 22 And so could some of those things be 23 data that the -- that the software is 24 receiving? 25 A. Receiving from just -Page 113 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. From the -- 2 A. -- anything? 3 Q. Let's say for a user, for example. 4 A. So we started talking about 5 something implemented online. 6 Q. Sure. We can in this -- 7 A. I think it wouldn't be uncommon, if 8 you're using an object-oriented programming 9 language, to store data in objects. 10 Q. Okay. Object-oriented programming 11 is a common practice; would you agree with 12 that? 13 A. I think that's fair. 14 Q. Okay. So creating and storing 15 objects is not something unique or unusual in 16 the case of Facebook, is it? 17 18 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: Like creating objects -- like an object within the code in -- 21 22 Vague. Form. 19 20 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Yeah. Using -- you know, for -- for 23 Facebook to create objects which represent 24 things on its Web site, that's not an unusual 25 practice for a Web site, is it? Page 114 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. THE WITNESS: Yeah. Form. Vague. 3 So the 4 hesitation that I'm having is that there are 5 ways of storing data in objects, which is not 6 necessarily the same as the objects one would 7 create in a program that's running. 8 9 And Facebook does both of those things. So if we're talking about 10 object-oriented programming, I don't think 11 there's anything unusual that I've seen in the 12 code about the -- the code and the objects that 13 are created within it to operate on that data. 14 15 16 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. And you're talking about the Facebook code that you've reviewed? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. 19 What is Facebook? 20 21 Very basic question: MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I'd say it's kind of Overbroad. 22 23 vague. It's a online social networking 24 platform. 25 Page 115 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 BY MR. JESSEN: 2 3 Q. the service that Facebook provides? 4 5 And what is your understanding of A. I think Facebook provides a lot of different services. 6 Q. Such as? 7 A. The ability to create an online 8 profile. The ability to build connections to 9 friends and share posts with them. 10 gaming component of the platform. 11 for example. 12 now. 13 There's a Farmville, I guess Candy Crush is big there I don't play games on Facebook. Obviously they have a messaging 14 functionality. 15 which is a little bit different than the user 16 maintaining a profile. 17 profiles that people can like, and businesses 18 can distribute information that way. 19 They have a business platform, Businesses can create They have an advertising 20 functionality, external social plug-ins. 21 don't know how much they're still using it, but 22 there's the Facebook Connect kind of Universal 23 log-in functionality. 24 25 I And, you know, there's overlap between some of these, but a lot of them are Page 116 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 quite distinct functions centered around having 2 a Facebook account. 3 4 Q. Okay. And you -- you are -- you are a Facebook user, correct? 5 A. I am. 6 Q. How many Facebook accounts do you 7 have? 8 9 A. I mean I have one kind of account for myself. 10 I have a professional author page. Q. Sorry. 12 A. No. 13 Q. The account for -- when you say you 11 I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead. 14 have a -- "I have an account for myself," like 15 a personal account. 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Jen Golbeck's? 18 A. It is. 19 Q. Okay. 20 21 All right. And then you also have a professional account, you said? A. Well, so it's -- it's connected to 22 my personal account, but I have a professional 23 page -- I think it's an author page -- that 24 people can like that I don't have to be friends 25 with. Page 117 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 So my personal account is kept very 2 private. 3 of professional public communications. 4 Q. That author page is where I do kind Yeah. Do you know what e-mail addresses 5 you have associated with your Facebook 6 accounts? 7 8 A. My main -- the account I use is golbeck@gmail.com. 9 How many accounts have I created 10 over time and what e-mails? I don't know. I 11 probably have one associated with my UMD 12 account, my UMD e-mail address. 13 if I ever log in there. 14 account for my fictional guy in my 15 investigations book, Malcolm Conroy Smith, who 16 is not an actual person. 17 Facebook doesn't shut his account down or like 18 ask for his passport. 19 over the place, and I maintain that. I don't know And then there's I'd appreciate it if He's got accounts all 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. He also has his own Gmail account. 22 Q. What was his name, Malcolm Conroy 23 Smith? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And tell me what his function is Page 118 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 again. 2 A. In my book "Social Media 3 Investigation," I wanted to have a kind of 4 account that people reading the book could go 5 kind of cyber stalk basically. 6 So he posts all kind of stuff on all 7 kinds of social media platforms, same profile 8 picture and user name so they can kind of 9 practice some of the techniques without 10 11 stalking any real people. Q. 12 13 Understood. You have -- are you an active Gmail user? 14 A. An active Gmail user? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You mentioned Gmail. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Golbeck@gmail.com. 20 And have you been for a long time? 21 A. 22 users. 23 Q. What year would that have been? 24 A. 2003 or '4 maybe. 25 I was one of the very first Gmail I got an invite from Google when they launched. And, you know, Page 119 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 you could invite two other people. And people 2 were selling the invites on E-Bay for hundreds 3 of dollars. It was like very technocool -- 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. -- at the time. 6 Q. Nice. 7 Do you also have a Yahoo account? 8 A. Probably, yeah. 9 Q. Is that something you use as well? 10 A. I think the only time I use it is 11 connected to my Flickr account, I think. 12 definitely don't use Yahoo e-mail, but I 13 probably get spam there. 14 one or two services I use where I occasionally 15 have to log in with that. 16 only one that I can think of. 17 Q. I I feel like there's But Flickr is the Are you aware that there have been 18 lawsuits against Google and Yahoo that are 19 comparable to the lawsuit against Facebook? 20 21 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Vague. Lacks foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: 23 Gmail one. 24 I do know about the Yahoo. 25 I didn't know there was one against BY MR. JESSEN: Page 120 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. There's also one against Twitter. 2 A. Interesting. 3 Q. That's a newer one. 4 5 6 What was your understanding of the lawsuit against Google? A. That -- so my understanding is that 7 there was a class action lawsuit alleging -- 8 basically around Google showing targeted ads 9 based on the contents of people's Gmail 10 accounts. 11 that. 12 Q. That's -- that's how I understood Is that something that you 13 understood when you were using -- when you used 14 Gmail, that they actually do, Google? 15 MR. RUDOLPH: I'm going to object to 16 this line of questioning as being beyond the 17 scope of Dr. "Golberg's" expert testimony. 18 You can answer. 19 BY MR. JESSEN: 20 Q. You can answer. 21 A. Okay. Did I understand that Gmail 22 was analyzing the contents of my messages to do 23 advertising? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I did. Page 121 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Since 2004 you understood that or... 2 A. Oh. No. I -- I don't know when I 3 first thought about that. 4 lawsuit -- when I read about that lawsuit, I 5 knew that they were doing that. 6 7 Q. Uh-huh. But when that And did you keep using -- you kept using Gmail? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Did this alleged practices against 10 11 Google bother you? A. Yeah. 12 MR. RUDOLPH: 13 BY MR. JESSEN: 14 15 16 17 Q. Vague. So why did you keep -- why did you keep using the -- the Gmail account? A. The -- again, there's a seven-hour answer here. 18 19 Objection. I'll try to keep it short. Yeah. I mean I -- I consider part of my work, you know -- well, not consider. 20 A lot of my work is focused around 21 privacy. And I have a kind of dystopian view 22 of where we're going in terms of privacy in the 23 online space. 24 The problem that I see is that there 25 are not a ton of great alternatives, and we're Page 122 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 not given a lot of options, right? 2 switch to another e-mail provider who, even if 3 their terms of service now says they won't do 4 that, they could start doing it later. 5 So I could If I pay for one, which I would 6 absolutely be willing to do, there's no 7 guarantee they're going to stay in business. 8 And that probably was my biggest motivation for 9 sticking with Gmail. 10 I have two Gmail accounts, a 11 professional and a personal one. 12 whole life since 2004 or '5 is in both of 13 those. 14 and to potentially having to switch again is 15 higher than my level of "upsetness" with the 16 privacy issues. 17 18 Q. And like my It would be -- the cost of switching Understood. So you're willing to trade some of 19 your privacy in return for the convenience of 20 continuing to use your Gmail account. 21 22 23 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Mischaracterizes prior thyme testimony. THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 don't think that's quite right. 25 I -- I mean I Like I would love to have the option. Page 123 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 BY MR. JESSEN: 2 Q. Right. 3 A. Like I'd pay Gmail for the privacy. 4 If they let me, I would pay lots of services. 5 Like you can go tell Facebook, if they let me 6 pay for my account and didn't show me ads, like 7 I would totally pay them like way more a month 8 than they get on advertising. 9 It's not an option. So I don't know 10 that I'm willing to trade privacy for 11 convenience. 12 trade-off. 13 willing to continue using Gmail. 14 15 16 17 Q. I don't see it as that kind of But I -- it's true that I was Do you use any kind of like ad blocking software? A. I use like ten kinds of ad blocking software. 18 Q. Do -- do they work? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So do you actually -- like going to 21 Facebook, do you see ads when you visit 22 Facebook or... 23 A. That's a good question. I don't see 24 the regular Facebook ads that appear on the 25 side. I think I do see some sponsored posts. Page 124 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 I think that's right. 2 3 Q. I think I see some. When did you first sign up for a Facebook account? 4 A. August of 2005, I believe. 5 Q. That was pretty early too. 6 A. Sure was. 7 Q. Why did you do that? 8 Why did you sign up? 9 A. I had accounts on every social 10 network that existed in 2005 except the adults 11 ones. 12 Q. Okay. What -- what -- what prompted 13 you to set up a Facebook account in August of 14 2005? 15 A. So part of my dissertation is -- 16 there was a whole chapter on kind of the state 17 of social networks. 18 Q. Uh-huh. 19 A. I had a list of all the social 20 networks that existed. 21 particular set of features that I was 22 interested in seeing if those had, which were 23 relevant to my work but not really relevant 24 now. 25 And there's a So I had accounts on all of those Page 125 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 networks first to go in and see if those 2 features were there and also just to kind of be 3 aware of the state of things. 4 It was a -- a new enough phenomenon 5 in 2004, 2005 that there weren't a lot of 6 people who were just experts on what existed. 7 So part of my becoming a doctor was becoming 8 one of those experts. 9 10 Q. And you've continued to use Facebook to the present day? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How -- how often do you use 13 Facebook? 14 A. Every day. 15 Q. Okay. 16 How long every day, on average? 17 A. It's hard to add up because I do a 18 lot of it like at red lights maybe, checking my 19 Facebook account. 20 Q. A very bad practice. 21 A. I know. 22 23 day. Probably a couple hours a Maybe -- maybe one hour a day total. Q. And how much of that is for your 24 like personal Facebook use as opposed to 25 research you might be doing? Page 126 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. It's hard for me to draw that line. 2 If I didn't have a professional need to kind of 3 know what's going on, I may have closed my 4 Facebook account. 5 You know, I'm in my 30s. And it's a 6 lot of my friends posting pictures of their 7 babies, which all kind of look the same after a 8 while. 9 So, you know, on one hand it's 10 mostly personal stuff that I'm looking at, 11 things that my friends have posted. 12 post all that much, but occasionally it -- it's 13 for them. 14 I don't At the same time, I -- I -- the 15 reason I have the account, I -- I would say is 16 80 percent professional just so I kind of know 17 the features that are there, know what's going 18 on, know the memes, that kind of thing. 19 20 21 Q. You normally access Facebook from a computer or mobile device? A. It's probably half and half. I 22 prefer to use my computer when i have it, but 23 there's a lot of times I'm walking around, use 24 the phone. 25 Q. What browser or browsers do you use Page 127 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 to access Facebook? 2 A. On my phone I use Safari pretty much 3 exclusively -- or I use -- actually use the 4 Facebook app. 5 Safari, but I usually use the app. 6 computer, primarily through Firefox, though I 7 do use Chrome and Safari on my computer. 8 9 Q. I do sometimes access it with On my Do you have JavaScript enabled on all those browsers? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. Has that always been the case? 12 A. I occasionally turn it off, but 13 generally its always enabled. 14 Q. Why do you occasionally turn it off? 15 A. It really slows things down. 16 Sometimes, you know, there will be sites that 17 have scripts that just kind of crank and will 18 -- especially my Firefox because it's very 19 customized. 20 it. 21 JavaScript will sometimes crash Some days, if I'm just feeling 22 particularly privacy paranoid, I'll also turn 23 it off. 24 25 Q. Why would you turn it off if you're feeling privacy paranoid? Page 128 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So a lot of the technology that -- 2 for example, key logging technology, as you're 3 typing, what you're typing is being 4 transmitted, is done with a technology called 5 AJAX. 6 if you turn JavaScript off, the actions that 7 you're taking on your computer can't be 8 transmitted until you submit them. 9 10 And the J in AJAX is for JavaScript. Q. So Have you used the Facebook Messages product? 11 A. The app or just the -- 12 Q. Either one. 13 first start with the -- the Web site itself. 14 15 Either -- well, let's Are you aware of the messaging functionality? 16 A. I do use that on Facebook. 17 Q. How long have you used that feature? 18 A. Probably since it's been there. 19 Q. Do you also do it on the -- in the 20 21 Facebook app for Messenger app? A. Yeah. Well, you can't send messages 22 in the Facebook app. 23 Messenger app. 24 app for privacy concerns. 25 It has to be in the I won't download the Messenger So if I'm on the mobile and I have Page 129 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 to do messaging, I'll do it by accessing 2 Facebook through the browser on my device. 3 Q. Okay. I assume that you have both 4 sent and received messages through the Facebook 5 Messages product. 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Can you give me an estimate of how 8 many messages you've sent through Facebook 9 Messages product? 10 A. I have no idea. You could probably 11 have them counted for me. I mean I can't even 12 give you an order of magnitude. 13 told me it was a thousand, I'd believe you. 14 you told me it was a hundred thousand, I'd 15 believe you too. Like if you If 16 Q. It sounds like it's a lot. 17 A. There's a few people that I do a lot 18 of -- the equivalent of texting, right, with 19 them through the Messages app. 20 21 Q. You've also received a lot of messages through Messages product? 22 A. I have. 23 Q. Okay. Can you provide an estimate 24 as to how many Facebook users you've exchanged 25 messages with through the Facebook Messages Page 130 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 product? 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Just going to -- I'm 3 going to object to this line of questioning as 4 being beyond the scope of Dr. "Golberg's" 5 expert report -- Golbeck. 6 Sorry. 7 MR. JESSEN: 8 MS. MAUTE: 9 THE WITNESS: 10 MR. JESSEN: Goldberg's my expert. I've been doing that. Yeah. It is kind of funny 11 that they're so close. 12 MR. RUDOLPH: It's going to happen. 13 THE WITNESS: Not the only time it 14 happens to me. 15 Probably 30-ish. 16 BY MR. JESSEN: 17 18 19 Q. Okay. Have you sent Facebook Messages containing URLs? A. I have. 20 MR. RUDOLPH: 21 BY MR. JESSEN: 22 Q. Same objection. How many? 23 MR. RUDOLPH: Same objection. 24 THE WITNESS: How many messages? 25 Page 131 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 5 6 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, now I'm focused specifically on messages containing URLs. A. It's very hard for me to gauge. A hundred, a few hundred. Q. Okay. From the time you first 7 started using the Messages product to the 8 current day? 9 10 A. I think so. I mean it's really hard for me to estimate that. 11 Q. I understand. 12 A. Yeah. 13 14 But yeah, I mean that's just considering all the time I've used it. Q. Were the messages that you've sent 15 on -- using the Facebook Messages product that 16 contained URLs, were they accompanied by the 17 URL preview? 18 19 20 A. Some of them definitely were. I don't know if they all were. Q. We're going to get into this when 21 we -- when we get into your report, but you 22 have a general understanding -- well, when you 23 sent those messages containing preview, you had 24 a general understanding of sort of how the 25 preview had been generated; is that fair to Page 132 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 say? A. You know, it depends on what you 3 mean by "how." But I -- I had a general 4 understanding of how the Facebook Open Graph 5 tags worked and that that was feeding the 6 preview. 7 Q. What do you mean by Open Graph tags? 8 A. So Facebook has a ontology, a schema 9 that allows third-party Web site owners to put 10 Meta tags in the head of their HTML 11 documents -- 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. -- that have information that 14 Facebook can use to build that preview in 15 Messages or otherwise. 16 and an image and a description. 17 some other ones. 18 They include a title And there's So that's a technology that -- that 19 I was aware of. 20 launched, but I remember reading about it when 21 it was launched. 22 I have no idea when it was And so I understood that -- that 23 that data that was in the third-party sites was 24 what was being displayed as the preview box 25 when I pasted in the URL. Page 133 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Were there ever instances where you 2 pasted in the URL, a preview was generated, and 3 then you X'd out the preview before sending the 4 message? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But I gather there were instances 7 when you left the preview in tact -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- before you hit "send." 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would it be accurate to say that, 12 during the time you've used the Facebook 13 Messages product, you've also received Facebook 14 Messages containing URLs? 15 A. I would guess that I have. I can't 16 think of any specific instances off the top of 17 my head, but it would surprise me if there 18 weren't any. 19 20 21 Q. Okay. You understand that, for a period of time -- well, strike that. For the URLs that you've sent 22 through the Facebook Messages product, do you 23 have an understanding as to how many of 24 those -- the Web sites associated with the URLs 25 had a Like -- Facebook Like button social Page 134 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 plug-in on their site? 2 A. 3 Sorry. 4 Q. 5 Oh. I have absolutely no idea. That's okay. And you probably also have no idea, 6 for those Web sites that may have had a Like 7 button social plug-in, whether or not that 8 plug-in had a counter next to it that totaled 9 the number of likes? 10 A. Yeah, I -- I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. I also assume you have no 12 idea that -- whether or not, if you sent a URL 13 in a message -- a Facebook message, that, if 14 the Web site associated that message had a Like 15 button social plug-in, and if the Like button 16 social plug-in had a counter next to it, you 17 can't tell me whether or not your sharing of 18 that URL in a message incremented that counter. 19 Would that be accurate? 20 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Compound. 21 And again, this is beyond the scope of her 22 testimony -- expert testimony. 23 THE WITNESS: Knowing what I know 24 from having reviewed all the Facebook code now, 25 I know that it would have gone up. But I Page 135 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 didn't observe it going up. 2 3 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Is it your understanding that, any 4 time a Facebook user includes an URL in a 5 message, that if the URL -- strike that. 6 Is it -- is it your understanding 7 that, any time a Facebook user includes a URL 8 in a message, and the URL linked to that -- 9 sorry -- the Web site linked to that URL has a 10 Like button social plug-in, that every time 11 that URL was sent in a -- in a private message, 12 the counter next to that URL, if it existed, 13 was incremented? 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. 15 THE WITNESS: For that to happen, 16 the URL -- there would have to be a URL preview 17 attachment on the message. 18 X'd out that attachment, my understanding is 19 that it would not have incremented the Like 20 button; but if the attachment was there and 21 everything operated the way it should, that 22 that Like button would have gone up in the time 23 period that we're talking about here. 24 25 So if -- if I had BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Prior to the end of -- well, at some Page 136 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 point in 2010, prior to the end of 2012? 2 Does that sound right to you? 3 We'll in your report in more detail, 4 but... 5 A. So there's a date where Facebook 6 changed the number that was being displayed in 7 that Like counter. 8 Q. Yep. 9 A. Prior to that date, from looking at 10 the code, my understanding is, if there was a 11 private message with a URL preview attachment 12 and everything operated right, once that was 13 sent, the counter would be incremented. 14 15 Q. that when we walk through your report. 16 17 And we'll get into more detail on Do you ever let anyone else use your Facebook account? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Has anyone else ever sent a Facebook 20 21 message on your behalf? A. I hope not. I mean it theoretically 22 could have happened if I walked away from my 23 computer in a meeting or something. 24 don't think that's ever happened. 25 Q. But I When was the last time you sent a Page 137 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 message on Facebook -- or through the Facebook 2 Messages product that included the URL? 3 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection again. I 4 mean these questions going to Dr. "Golberg's" 5 personal use of Facebook are beyond the scope 6 of her expert testimony. 7 Golbeck. 8 Can you just correct that 9 Sorry. automatically in the transcript, please. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 BY MR. JESSEN: 12 13 Q. Probably last week. Do you remember if it had a URL preview attached -- 14 A. I -- 15 Q. -- to it? 16 A. Well, it did because now I pay 17 really close attention to that, right? 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. This case is kind of in the 20 21 forefront of my mind right now. Q. Right. 22 So preview -- last week you -- you 23 included the URL in a message, a preview was 24 generated, you left the preview intact and sent 25 the message. Page 138 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I did. 2 Q. Okay. And is it -- is it safe to 3 say that you've probably done that quite a bit 4 this year, sent messages with URLs that had 5 previews on them? 6 A. I think that's fair. 7 Q. Earlier we talked a little bit about 8 the first time you reached out to plaintiffs' 9 counsel. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Which I think you said was 12 approximately November 2014. 13 New York Times article that you read. 14 15 You referenced a Was that the first time you became aware of this lawsuit? 16 A. It was. 17 Q. Okay. What is your understanding of 18 what the plaintiffs in this case are alleging 19 that Facebook did wrong? 20 A. On like a high level? 21 Q. Sure. 22 A. That Facebook intercepted the 23 private messages and did things with them that 24 violated these laws that we talked about 25 before. Page 139 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. Now let's -- I see you 2 already have it in front of you, but I'm going 3 to -- we're going to talk about your report a 4 little bit, which has been marked Exhibit 3. 5 6 And you -- do you recognize the document marked as Exhibit 3? 7 A. I do. 8 Q. What is it? 9 A. Looks like my report. 10 Q. Okay. If you turn to Page 33 of the 11 document, there's a date, and then there's a 12 signature. 13 Is that your signature? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. Okay. 16 You executed this on -- the report on November 13th, 2015? 17 A. That sounds right. 18 Q. Is it correct that you did not sign 19 20 21 22 this document under penalty of perjury? A. I don't quite understand the question. Q. Well, you referenced earlier in -- 23 in some of your cases where you -- I think you 24 weren't an actual expert, but you were a -- you 25 submitted the declaration or an affidavit. And Page 140 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 normally that kind of document is submitted 2 under oath -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- under penalty of perjury. "I 5 declare that all the foregoing is true and 6 correct under the -- under the laws of the 7 U.S.," something like that. 8 just noticed that that was not -- that language 9 isn't anywhere in here. 10 11 And I'm just -- I And I'm just wondering is that correct; and if so -- 12 A. Oh. 13 Q. -- why is that? 14 A. I have no idea. This is in the 15 space of like legal things that do or don't go 16 into this that I don't understand. So -- 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. -- if it should have been there, 19 there was no intentional reason to leave it 20 off. 21 22 Q. Okay. Do you believe that this -- your report is accurate -- 23 A. I do. 24 Q. -- as you sit here today? 25 A. Yes. Page 141 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. Are there any changes you would want to make to it? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. Who prepared the report? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. How exact- -- tell me at a high 7 level first sort of how it -- how this document 8 came into existence. 9 A. I wrote the whole thing. 10 in this nice format by counsel. 11 It got put of came about in, you know, pieces. 12 13 14 15 Q. Yeah. It kind When you say "pieces," what do you mean? A. a time. I drafted, you know, sections one at So -- 16 Q. Uh-huh. 17 A. -- the first section on my 18 qualifications, which was pretty easy -- 19 Q. Sure. 20 A. -- for me the write. 21 Q. Of course? 22 A. So, you know, I worked separately on 23 each of the different main sections here and 24 then -- 25 Q. Uh-huh. Page 142 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. -- put it all together. 2 Q. You drafted every line of this 3 4 report? A. I did. I had help from counsel on 5 my understanding of the legal concepts. 6 know, they did some copy editing. 7 draft the whole thing myself. 8 9 10 Q. You But I did When you say "copy editing," what do you mean by that? A. Looking for typos. They helped 11 check a bunch of like the section references, 12 the Bates numbers. 13 proofed a lot of the quotes and things. 14 15 Q. I'm sure they probably Were there different drafts that were -- that were prepared? 16 A. I did have a lot of drafts. 17 Q. And how many total drafts do you 18 think you had? 19 A. Maybe 15. 20 Q. Did each of those drafts -- did you 21 show each of those drafts to counsel? 22 A. I don't think they saw all of them. 23 Q. Did they -- how many did they see? 24 A. You know, it depends where you draw 25 the line between one draft and another. I tend Page 143 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 to renumber every single time I get a document 2 back, even if there's not many changes or just 3 comments in it. 4 5 They probably saw the last five or six, I would guess. 6 7 Q. And did they -- you would send them -- you would send -- e-mail them a draft? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then would they revise it in any A. They would note if there were typos, 10 11 way? 12 that kind of thing. 13 sometimes with questions, asking for 14 clarification on certain points that I had put 15 in there. 16 They would send it back Other than the, you know, 17 formatting, which they put it into this 18 format -- 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. -- for me, I don't recall them 21 22 really revising anything. Q. So is it your testimony that there 23 are not parts of this report that were drafted 24 by counsel? 25 A. I think that's right. Like I said, Page 144 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 I relied on them for the legal understanding. 2 And so they worked close- -- closely with me on 3 the language there since it has to be so 4 precise. 5 6 7 8 Q. What sections are you talking about in particular? A. Let me take a look and go through here. 9 So on Page 29, Section 8, "In the 10 ordinary course of business" -- oh, no. 11 just -- I'm sorry. 12 That's That's citing this case. So like at the end of that page -- 13 Q. Page 29? 14 A. -- Page 29, I'm sure they supplied 15 me with this quote in reference to the Gmail 16 litigation. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. And then on Page 32, in Section 9, 19 there's a discussion of a couple cases there in 20 Paragraph 116. 21 drafted this. I'm sure they provided me with 22 the citation. We've talked about that Carrier 23 IQ case before, so I haven't read it myself. Just reading this, I definitely 24 So that's a section where they -- 25 where I would have worked with them to make Page 145 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 sure that I represented the law correctly. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Looking through here, that looks 4 5 Anything else? like it covers it. Q. There is a section of this report, 6 as long as we're on this subject, starting at 7 Page 85 -- I'm sorry -- Paragraph 85 -- 8 A. Paragraph... 9 Q. -- Page 24. 10 And we -- we'll go through this in more detail. 11 But you have a description of sort 12 of what Facebook did internally after this Wall 13 Street Journal article was published in October 14 of 2012, a reporting on -- you know, that 15 sending a URL in a message might increment Like 16 counter by two. 17 18 Was this also a section that you -you drafted? 19 A. I did. 20 Q. Okay. 21 22 Okay. And again, we'll go through it in a little bit more detail. Directing your attention to 23 Paragraph 12, you say: "In preparing this 24 report, I have employed methods and analyses of 25 the type reasonably relied upon by experts in Page 146 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 my field in forming opinions or inferences on 2 the subject. 3 upon a reasonable degree of computer science 4 certainty." 5 The opinions expressed are based You see that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. Is that true of every opinion 8 offered in this report? 9 A. Which part of it? 10 Q. Well, each one. 11 We can break it out. 12 Like -- so let's start with the 13 first sentence in Paragraph 12. 14 employed methods and analyses of a type 15 reasonably relied upon by experts in my field 16 in forming opinions or references on the 17 subject. 18 19 You say you've Is that sentence true for every opinion you've offered in this report? 20 A. I believe that's true. 21 Q. And what about the second sentence, 22 for every opinion in this report, that your 23 opinion is based upon a reasonable degree of 24 computer science certainty? 25 A. Certainly all the computer science Page 147 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 opinions that I offer are based on a reasonable 2 degree of computer science certainty. 3 trying to think if there's anything else in 4 there. 5 6 I'm just I think overall that's fair to say. Q. So you say certainly the computer 7 science opinions you offer are based upon a 8 reasonable degree of computer science 9 certainty. 10 Are there opinions in this report 11 that you would consider to not be computer 12 science opinions? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. Sure. 15 A. -- to just think if there's anything 16 in there that wouldn't fall into that space. 17 18 19 20 21 That's why I was pausing -- As far as I consider it, I think everything in here is computer science based. Q. When you say "computer science based," what do you mean by that? A. That it falls within the scope of 22 things that we've discussed in the field of 23 computer science. 24 25 Q. What does it mean to say that an opinion is based on a reasonable degree of Page 148 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 computer science certainty? A. So -- so, for example, if we talk 3 about the code, the Facebook code is the most 4 complex code system that I have ever looked at 5 by at least an order of magnitude. 6 it's crazy what's going on in that code. 7 It's -- So there are -- are conclusions that 8 I have to make as one who doesn't have the 9 entire code base in my head, which I don't 10 think anyone on earth has, including the 11 Facebook engineers. 12 So, for example, there are comments 13 in the code that describe what's going on or 14 things are named in a certain way that I rely 15 on to kind of guide my understanding that I 16 think any other computer scientist would do. 17 It could be the case that there's 18 some crazy Facebook engineer who gave 19 everything names that has nothing to do with 20 what it actually does and led me down a path 21 that kind of made sense but does something 22 different. 23 of that happening. 24 25 I think there's basically no chance But I relied on some of these kinds of things, which I think any computer scientist Page 149 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 would do, you know, looking at comments, 2 looking at the names in the code that I think 3 gives a high degree of computer science 4 certainty, yeah. 5 Q. To have a high degree of computer 6 science certainty, would you -- would you 7 actually have to -- have to look at the code 8 for a specific opinion in order to say, "Yeah, 9 I have a reasonable degree of computer science 10 certainty that this -- what I'm saying is" -- 11 "is accurate"? 12 A. I think it depends on the opinion 13 and, you know, what other evidence there is to 14 support it. 15 16 Q. Okay. If you could turn your attention to Exhibit B to your report. 17 A. It's at the very back, right? 18 Q. Yes. 19 See that? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. Okay. Is this the list of materials 22 that you relied on in forming your opinions in 23 your report? 24 A. It is. 25 Q. Is it a -- is it a complete list? Page 150 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. It looks like a complete list. 2 Q. Did you consider or rely upon any 3 other documents in forming your opinions in 4 this case? 5 A. I certainly read more documents that 6 Facebook produced than are listed here. 7 these are all the ones that I cite as evidence 8 for my opinions. 9 Q. But Well, are there any documents that 10 you read but don't cite in your report that 11 support your opinions in the report? 12 13 A. So is the question are there other documents that would support my opinions? 14 Q. Well -- 15 A. Or have I left -- 16 Q. Not -- 17 A. -- some out -- 18 Q. Not exactly -- 19 A. -- that I've relied on? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. I don't think so. 22 Q. Okay. More the second one. You tried to be comprehensive 23 when -- when documenting the conclusions you 24 reached in this report? 25 A. I did. Page 151 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. The documents listed in 2 Exhibit B, did you review all of these -- all 3 of these documents before you signed the report 4 on November 13th? 5 A. I believe I did, yes. 6 Q. Okay. Now, towards the top of 7 Exhibit B, you list two depositions, deposition 8 of Ray He, spelled H-E, on September 25th, 9 2015; and the deposition of Michael Adkins, 10 October 28, 2015. 11 You see that? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. Did you read the transcripts for 14 both of those depositions or -- sorry. 15 ahead. 16 A. Go So I did read the transcripts, but I 17 also virtually -- I believe I virtually 18 attended both of those depositions as well. 19 Q. You were on a -- 20 A. Like a video thing so I could watch 21 and listen, but I -- I -- 22 Q. Right? 23 A. -- couldn't speak. 24 Q. Could you -- when you were doing 25 that, could you see the witnesses? Page 152 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I definitely could see Ray He. 2 don't remember if I had the video on for 3 Michael Adkins. 4 doing some of that "mobilely" and was just 5 listening. 6 Q. I 7 I think I might have been like Understood. So you both -- you -- you listened 8 to these or watched these depositions while 9 they were happening, but then you also reviewed 10 the -- the depo transcripts? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Did you review the deposition 13 14 transcripts in full? A. I probably skipped over some of -- 15 especially the opening kind of foundational 16 sections. 17 Q. Okay. You also list Exhibit -- 18 again, in the documents you reviewed, Exhibit F 19 to the declaration of Alex Himel on behalf of 20 Defendant Facebook, Inc. 21 You see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you review the entire 24 declaration of Alex Himel and all exhibits or 25 just Exhibit F? Page 153 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I reviewed the entire declaration. 2 Q. But I guess you're -- but you're 3 just relying upon Exhibit F to the declaration 4 in support of your opinions? 5 A. I think that's right. I cite -- 6 there's specific pieces of code in discussions 7 with Facebook engineers that I'm pretty sure I 8 cite in here. 9 in the actually declaration that I used to 10 11 I don't think there was anything support my opinions. Q. Did you consider the other parts of 12 that declaration in forming any of your other 13 opinions? 14 A. What do you mean by that? 15 Q. Like did you -- so it's a lengthy 16 declaration with lots of other exhibits. 17 And I guess I'm just wondering, 18 other than Exhibit F, which clearly you 19 considered and you relied on in reaching your 20 conclusions, did you consider or not whether 21 the other parts of the Himel declaration were 22 relevant to your analysis? 23 A. I did. And this is why I always 24 sort of struggle with these materials relied on 25 in forming my opinions, right? Page 154 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 You know, as we discussed at the 2 beginning, there are cases that I've turned 3 down because, you know, I don't believe in the 4 merits of them. 5 this is not the most fun way for me to spend my 6 time, getting deposed, right? 7 I keep that in mind. Like So I -- I really won't do it unless 8 I think a case is legitimate. 9 actively look for things that I think are 10 So I -- I contrary to what I think is true. 11 So, you know, like Alex Himel had a 12 lot to say in that declaration. 13 read it. 14 I considered it. You know, I I looked at it. Here this is -- you know, the 15 exhibits are what I cited to support the 16 opinions in my report. 17 considered that and a lot of other documents 18 that aren't cited here in kind of generally 19 forming my opinions about the case. 20 Q. But I certainly Exhibit B also has a list of 21 documents that are -- have production numbers 22 that start with FB. 23 24 25 Do you have a general recollection of what those documents are, just in general? A. So some of them I believe are Page 155 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 printed copies of the source code. 2 are documents that came from Face- -- Facebook 3 production. 4 Other ones So some I know are discussions 5 between engineers about code changes. I 6 think -- I think that's actually a lot of the 7 ones that aren't source code. 8 there's a few other kind of internal Facebook 9 documentation kind of files in there. And I think 10 Q. Are there some e-mails included? 11 A. Yeah. So when I say conversations 12 between engineers, I think they actually take 13 place in the Facebook messaging system. 14 They're not allowed to e-mail each other. 15 have to use Facebook Messenger. 16 Q. They Did you rely on any of those written 17 communications between and among Facebook 18 engineers to draw conclusions about the 19 functionality of Facebook's source code? 20 A. It certainly pointed me to and 21 explained what some of the source code would 22 do. 23 that mattered, I looked at the code myself as 24 well. 25 But I think, in any of the cases where Q. Did you make any attempt -- well, if Page 156 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 a particular e-mail was discussing a certain 2 functionality, did you make any attempt to 3 determine the time period during which any such 4 functionality would have been operational? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. How did you do that? 7 A. So those Facebook engineer 8 discussions all had dates on them. 9 pretty easy to see when that was functional. 10 So it was If they were talking about a feature 11 that was active in say 2009 -- I know some of 12 the e-mails were from then -- I looked at other 13 versions of the source code, because we could 14 look at it across time in what we had 15 available, and looked at that as well. 16 Q. Okay. Now, at the bottom of Exhibit 17 B, at least the bottom of the first page, you 18 do list "Source Code Produced By Facebook." 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What are you referring to there 21 22 specifically? A. So, as I mentioned in the -- the 23 Bates numbers that are above, some of those are 24 to specific source code files. 25 you've seen in the report, I have actual And as I'm sure Page 157 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 excerpts of code pasted in there. 2 So I cite to the particular files 3 that we printed when I cite particular bits of 4 code. 5 ridiculously complex. 6 of what's going on in the code is not just 7 from, you know, the three lines that I pasted 8 in but from a lot of time spent reading and 9 understanding the code and how it fits 10 But as I mentioned, the code is And so my understanding together. 11 I couldn't possibly cite all of 12 those lines and connections because it -- it 13 would almost be just giving you the source code 14 back. 15 So I definitely used information 16 from my review of the source code to understand 17 the individual lines that I've cited there. 18 19 Q. have a section called "Other Materials." 20 21 And then finally on Exhibit B you What are those, generally? A. External Web sites. So some of 22 them -- there's a couple Internet archive 23 pages. 24 published on the Web. 25 Journal article that you're familiar with. Some are Facebook documents that were There's a Wall Street Page 158 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Uh-huh. 2 A. And I believe those last two 3 links -- the last one is definitely Michael 4 Hurley's Facebook profile. 5 above that may be his, too, just indexed by his 6 user ID instead of his screen name. 7 Q. I believe the one I see one of the items you missed. 8 Appears to be some developer guidance from 9 Facebook. 10 A. Maybe the fourth line down. Yeah. I -- I'm sorry. I would 11 count that as an internal Facebook document 12 published on the Web. 13 Q. What do you mean by "internal"? 14 A. Something that Facebook created. 15 So -- so I don't mean it internal as just for 16 Facebook employees, but not just something that 17 some guy posted on Facebook. 18 actually posted by Facebook itself. 19 Q. 20 21 Like it was Right. And it's -- it is or was available on the World Wide Web to -- 22 A. To anyone, yes. 23 Q. Okay. Did you consult the developer 24 pages for all of the functionality you discuss 25 in your report? Page 159 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I mean a lot of the functionality in 2 the report wasn't necessarily described on the 3 developer pages. 4 looked for as much of it as I could, right, 5 because those are great things to use to 6 understand what's going on in the code. 7 A lot of it I just didn't see 8 So I think I looked for -- I described in the developer documentation. 9 Q. Did you review the developer 10 guidance that was in effect in 2011 and 2012 11 regarding what specific things went into the 12 counter next to a Like button social plug-in? 13 A. Yeah. I think we -- this is testing 14 my memory a little bit. 15 up on the Internet archive just to see it. 16 I think we also received it -- Facebook 17 produced a document that had some of that in 18 it. 19 20 21 I'm sure I looked it But I believe that's the case. Q. But you didn't rely on that? Because I don't see it listed here. A. Yeah. I -- again, we can probably 22 go through this, and I'll see it. But I think 23 -- I think, in an initial draft of this, I had 24 -- I may even have included some of that 25 developer documentation, and then it just kind Page 160 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 of didn't fit in -- it -- it felt like it was 2 kind of going off on a tangent, so I dropped it 3 and would have dropped the citation then. 4 Q. Okay. Let's touch base -- what I 5 thought we would do, although we could take a 6 break now if you want, but maybe go till 1:00 7 and then do lunch, and then I think we'll be 8 like halfway through at that point. 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Okay. 10 MR. JESSEN: 11 THE WITNESS: 12 MR. JESSEN: 13 BY MR. JESSEN: 14 15 Q. Okay. Roughly. Fine. Does that work for you? What -- you -- so you reviewed source code in this case. 16 A. I did. 17 Q. Facebook source code. 18 19 20 21 What time period does the source code that you reviewed cover? A. I just want to look in here because I think the actual dates are in here, and I -- 22 Q. Sure. Go ahead. 23 A. -- just always forget that. 24 Q. Of course. 25 A. So looking at Paragraph 14 on Page Page 161 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 3, I've noted here that that source code goes 2 from 2009 to December of 2012. 3 4 5 Q. Do you know why the source code does not go past 2012? A. So I -- I don't know exactly. I've 6 been told that that's the period that Facebook 7 said was relevant. 8 9 10 Q. agreed to the code that was actually produced, including the time period? 11 12 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: 17 Lacks I don't think I know anything about that. 15 16 Objection. foundation. 13 14 You understand that Plaintiffs' BY MR. JESSEN: Q. You don't have any reason to think they didn't agree to that, do you? 18 MR. RUDOLPH: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: I mean this is like 20 legal world stuff. 21 operate. 22 23 24 25 I have no idea how you guys BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Understood. You haven't seen any Facebook code after December 2012, correct? Page 162 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Not in this case, no. 2 Q. Okay. 3 4 Did you see some in the Rembrandt case? A. Actually, I don't remember the -- 5 the date when that stuff ended. 6 look at JavaScript code from Facebook, which is 7 sent to the browser, since then. 8 back-end code, which is what they provide, you 9 know, on the computer in the locked room, I 10 You know, I've But the don't recall seeing anything since 2012. 11 And, yeah, I think -- just thinking 12 through it, I think the Rembrandt case was -- 13 was like 2009. 14 older code that they were looking at, so I 15 don't think I saw anything newer. 16 Q. Okay. Like there was -- it was much And I -- you're not rely -- 17 your opinions in this case, you're not relying 18 upon any of the code you saw in the Rembrandt 19 case for your opinions here, correct? 20 21 22 A. That's right. I mean there's no overlap between anything in that case and this. Q. So how many times -- you understand 23 there's a -- there's a source code review room 24 at a law office in Palo Alto -- 25 A. Yes. Page 163 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. -- where the -- where the code -- the relevant code is hosted. 3 4 How many times have you been there to review the code? 5 A. Twice. 6 Q. Okay. 7 And was the first time on August 4 of this year? 8 A. That sounds right. 9 Q. Who -- did anyone go with you to 10 review the code? 11 A. 12 that time. 13 Q. 14 Like the lawyers weren't with you or... 15 16 I think I was there just by myself A. Oh, no. I'm sorry. I've done a lot of source code review over the summer too. 17 Q. Understood? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Because of your other case too? 20 A. Because of the other case. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I'm just trying to separate them 23 out. Yeah, there were lawyers there. 24 remember who they were. 25 were a couple of lawyers there. I'm sorry. I don't But there Page 164 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know -- 2 MR. RUDOLPH: That's okay. 3 THE WITNESS: -- if you were there 4 or not. 5 6 They were -- most of the time they weren't in the room with me. 7 I think -- BY MR. JESSEN: 8 Q. Right. 9 A. -- you know, I maybe talked to them 10 in the room with the code for the last half 11 hour. 12 13 Q. And other than you and the attorneys, was anyone else there that day? 14 A. No. 15 Q. What was the purpose of going to 16 17 18 look at the code on or about August 4, 2015? A. That was to start looking for code -- 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. -- that was relevant to the 21 conclusions that are here in this report, 22 looking for how these things were handled. 23 24 25 Q. You were looking for code that supported the conclusions in your report? A. I was looking for code relevant to Page 165 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 the things that I discuss in the report, 2 proving it or disproving it. 3 4 Q. How long did you review the code that day? 5 A. Seven or eight hours, I would guess. 6 Q. And then when was the second time 7 you reviewed the code actually at the -- at the 8 Palo Alto office? 9 10 A. I think it was in October of this year. 11 Q. October 14th, 2015? 12 A. That sounds good. 13 Q. Could that -- could it be that? 14 A. Ah, that's exactly when it was, yes. 15 Q. That date sticks out in your mind 16 17 18 Could that -- for a particular reason? A. I ran a marathon the day before I flew out there. So -- 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. -- it was a little complicated 21 travel thing, yes. 22 Q. Which marathon? 23 A. Chicago. 24 Q. Nice. 25 Was it -- were attorneys there with Page 166 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 you that day as well? A. David Rudolph came at the very end 3 of the day, I think the last half hour I was 4 there. 5 rest of the day. But there were no lawyers there the 6 Q. Was anyone else there? 7 A. No one was in the room with me. 8 Q. How many hours did you review the 9 10 11 12 code for that day? A. I'd guess it probably was the same, seven or eight hours. Q. Okay. And was the purpose of that 13 review the sort of same as the first review, to 14 look for code that was relevant to the issues 15 you were going to be opining on? 16 A. It was. I had a more specific set 17 of things that I was looking for. 18 mean all of it was just kind of looking at how 19 -- understanding how specific systems within 20 Facebook operated. 21 22 Q. But yeah, I What were the more specific things you were looking for? 23 A. So in particular I was looking at 24 Taste. 25 that visit. I know I looked for code on Taste in And then I think there were -- so Page 167 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 I had identified a number of files on my first 2 visit that I thought were interesting, and I 3 think there were a few additional ones that I 4 wanted to make sure that I looked at and kind 5 of traced the related functionality around with 6 on that second visit, just with respect to the 7 messaging procedures in general. 8 9 10 11 Q. So other than those two days of reviewing the Facebook code, what other review of the code have you done in this case? A. So there's a code reviewer still 12 there looking at the code who's been there for 13 months, it seems like. 14 direction. 15 He's working at my So I -- the first time I went out 16 there -- remember you said that was August -- I 17 was the first one to look toot code. 18 Q. Uh-huh. 19 A. I -- as I mentioned before, none of 20 this code is -- at all overlaps with what was 21 in the Rembrandt case, but I did have a general 22 understanding of how it was structured, like 23 what kind of directories there were. 24 25 So I, you know, looked for the messaging directories and identified the major Page 168 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 files that I thought were associated with that. In addition, I think on that first 3 visit I also identified the files that were in 4 Alex Himel's declaration. 5 in the declaration he sent. 6 the -- those specific files. 7 They were redacted So I looked for Based on that, I developed a -- 8 actually a pretty good understanding of what 9 was going on. But as I keep saying, it's super 10 complicated code. 11 reviewer has been doing is following the paths 12 that I wanted a kind of deeper verification on. 13 Because it can take hours and hours to trace 14 down those particular connections in the code. 15 So a lot of what the code So that's -- between my first visit 16 and my second, that's mostly what he was doing, 17 really just verifying the things that I found 18 in my first visit. 19 On the second visit, there are a 20 couple of files that he had mentioned he 21 thought were relevant that I looked at. 22 And then I started looking at Taste, 23 which the code reviewer hadn't looked at, did 24 the same kind of thing. 25 understood that it worked, I looked through the Based on how I kind of Page 169 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 files there. I identified the ones that kind 2 of, on a high level, looked like they were 3 relevant. 4 And I've been directing him to kind 5 of look at particular connections in the code 6 to verify that it works the way I thought it 7 did and -- to just flush out that 8 understanding. 9 In addition to that, I had pretty 10 extensive notes from my visits there. 11 spent some time just kind of putting that 12 together. 13 just jot down some notes to figure -- and then 14 figure out how it all fits together." 15 So I Because there was a lot of, "Let's I also have printouts of the source 16 code. 17 on my two visits there, which are the ones 18 cited here in Bates numbers. 19 Almost all of that is files that I found I think there's one file that the 20 code reviewer found that I hadn't seen myself. 21 And -- and that's one where I reviewed the code 22 in printout form instead of on the computer at 23 the Cooley office. 24 Q. The reviewer is David Cartt? 25 A. That's right. Page 170 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Are you relying on Mr. Cart's 2 representations at all about the functionality 3 of the code? 4 A. I'm not. 5 Q. Are you relying on his 6 representations about the actual code that he 7 reviewed? 8 9 10 A. I -- I don't understand what that question means. Q. Well, if he tells you he -- he -- "I 11 look at these ten files," I mean is that -- I 12 assume you rely on that. 13 14 A. So I believe him that he said he looked at them. 15 Q. Right? 16 A. I can't really form any opinions 17 18 19 20 based on the fact that he looked. Q. When you say he's working at your direction, what do you mean by that? A. So we have calls frequently where 21 he'll kind of say, "Here's what I looked at 22 today. 23 Here's what seems to be happening." And I'll ask him to spend his time 24 the next day looking at -- you know, chase down 25 this feature. Or see how these things connect. Page 171 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Or don't bother looking at that anymore. 2 look at this other thing. 3 Q. Who's paying Mr. Cartt? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Not you? 6 A. Not me. 7 Q. Okay. Let's 8 What is he still looking for in Facebook's code? 9 MR. RUDOLPH: I'm going to instruct 10 the witness not to answer. 11 communications between the expert and counsel. 12 This goes to BY MR. JESSEN: 13 Q. Are you going to follow your -- 14 A. I'll -- I'll do what he says. 15 Q. -- attorney's instruction? 16 Well, let me ask it like this: 17 Without divulging the substance, is Mr. Cartt 18 looking for source code to confirm opinions 19 you've already reached, or is he looking for 20 code to -- that would inform new opinions? 21 MR. RUDOLPH: 22 BY MR. JESSEN: 23 24 25 Q. Same instruction. Are you going follow your counsel's instruction? A. I am. Page 172 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Does anybody ever not? 3 Q. I haven't seen it. 4 Okay. It's not beyond the realm of possibility. 5 6 Yes? How much longer do you think Mr. Cartt's going to be looking at the code? 7 MR. RUDOLPH: Same instruction. 8 THE WITNESS: I'll do what he says. 9 MR. JESSEN: 10 for the substance of the conversation. 11 12 Well, I'm not asking MR. RUDOLPH: If you know the answer to that question, you can -- you can answer. 13 THE WITNESS: 14 really know. 15 So I don't -- I don't won't be held to? 16 Can I give you an answer that I BY MR. JESSEN: 17 Q. Yeah. I'm not going to hold you to 18 it. I'm just trying to get a sense of how much 19 longer he's going to be looking at it. 20 21 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: I would totally have to speculate. 24 25 Oh. speculate. 22 23 Don't -- don't BY MR. JESSEN: Q. How much more time do you think you Page 173 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 need him to look at the code? 2 You can give me a -- I don't want 3 you to guess, but you can give me your best 4 estimate. 5 MR. RUDOLPH: Don't -- don't guess. 6 THE WITNESS: Let me give you some 7 qualifications maybe. 8 have to guess even if -- even if I give you 9 some qualifications. 10 No. I would totally BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Okay. All right. 12 A. One answer that a Facebook engineer 13 gave in a 30(b)(6) deposition, he was asked a 14 question about how many -- "How many times have 15 you been deposed before?" 16 And he said, "More than two and less 17 than 10,000," which I thought was a little 18 snarky. 19 But I would say, in terms of days, 20 that's probably true for how long Mr. Cartt 21 will be reviewing the code. 22 23 24 25 Q. I don't think it was less than 10,000, but... The -- okay. You're aware that Facebook employees have given 30(b)(6) Page 174 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 deposition testimony? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That included a discussion of the 4 source code functionality? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. And you were present either 7 telephonically or virtually for the deposition 8 of Michael Adkins on October 28, 2015? 9 10 A. that deposition, yes. 11 12 I believe I was there for most of Q. And you read that deposition transcript? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you request any source code 15 printouts based on information about source 16 code files that Mr. Adkins testified about? 17 A. I understand the question and -- so 18 I don't -- I don't think he simply mentioned 19 something and I said, "Print that code out for 20 me." 21 You know, not having it in -- in 22 front of me, you know, just going on my best 23 recollection, most of what he went through 24 there was code I was already familiar with. 25 had either looked at it or reviewed it myself. Page 175 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 I HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 I'm sure he looked at some other 2 files that just didn't seem to have anything 3 relevant. 4 If there was anything that he 5 mentioned that I didn't know about, I would 6 have asked David Cartt to take a look at it and 7 print it out for me if I had to. 8 9 10 11 But I don't recall, off the top of my head, anything specific from his deposition that I hadn't already looked at. Q. Are you aware that Mr. He, Ray He, 12 which is the same as Ray He I mentioned 13 earlier, H-E, was als- -- also gave 30(b)(6) 14 deposition testimony on source code 15 functionality that same day, October 28, 2015? 16 A. I -- I don't know that I knew that. 17 Q. Okay. You're not -- you didn't 18 review any testimony from Mr. He given on 19 October 28, 2015, correct? 20 A. Not that I recall. 21 Q. And you weren't there -- you didn't 22 appear for that deposition telephonically or 23 through the computer. 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. You know why -- you know why you Page 176 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 have a -- you're not aware of that or... 2 3 A. I don't know why I don't know. 4 5 I -- I don't know. Q. Okay. Did you review the deposition transcript of Jiakai Liu? 6 A. I think I've seen parts of that. I 7 don't remember if I've read the whole thing or 8 not. 9 know I've seen parts of that, but I -- I just I do know that he was deposed. And I 10 don't remember if I got the whole transcript or 11 not. 12 13 Q. What about the deposition transcript of Mike Vernal? 14 A. That I don't -- 15 Q. He's -- 16 A. -- believe I've seen. 17 Q. Okay. How much total the time do 18 you think Mr. Cartt has spent reviewing the 19 source code? 20 A. It's hard for me to tell because 21 I -- I know part of the time he's there 22 part-time, and he works on some other cases. 23 Probably a couple hundred hours, I would guess. 24 Q. 25 Who is -- do you know a Gary Stringham? Page 177 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I do. 2 Q. Who is he? 3 A. He's another code reviewer. 4 Q. And was he -- was he also reviewing 5 the Facebook code at some point in this case at 6 your direction? 7 A. He was. 8 Q. But at some point he stopped doing 9 the code, and the code review went to 10 Mr. Cartt? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What was the reason for the switch 13 from Mr. Stringham to Mr. Cartt? 14 MR. RUDOLPH: I'm going to instruct 15 the witness not to answer that. 16 MR. JESSEN: 17 MR. RUDOLPH: On what grounds? It goes to 18 communications between attorneys and Dr. 19 Golbeck. 20 21 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Do you have an understanding, 22 separate an apart from any communication you've 23 had with plaintiffs' counsel, regarding why 24 Mr. Stringham stopped doing the code review? 25 A. No. I think it's all stuff that Page 178 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 we've talked about. Q. Do you know how long Mr. Stringham 3 reviewed the source code -- Facebook source 4 code? 5 A. I think it was a few weeks that he 6 was out there looking at it, but I don't really 7 remember beyond that. 8 Q. And I forgot to mention this 9 earlier, but when he instructed you not to 10 answer earlier, you're going to follow his 11 instruction? 12 A. I am. 13 MR. JESSEN: Okay. 14 we're at a good stopping point. 15 THE WITNESS: 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 17 Okay. I think Great. Off the record at 12:54. 18 This is the end of Media Unit No. 2. 19 (A lunch recess was taken.) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 21 On the record at 1:50. 22 This is the beginning of Media Unit 23 No. 3 in the deposition of Dr. Jennifer 24 Golbeck. 25 BY MR. JESSEN: Page 179 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. Welcome back, Dr. Golbeck. 2 A. Thanks. 3 Q. If you could direct your attention 4 to Paragraph 16 of your report, which is 5 Exhibit 3, starting on Page -- the bottom of 6 Page 3. 7 A. Yep. 8 Q. Paragraph 16 of your report lists 9 10 the issues you have been asked to opine on; is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. All right. Let's just briefly walk 13 through these. 14 "The structure and function of Facebook's 15 messaging system." 16 You -- number -- or Letter A: Do you see that? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. That's one -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- issue you've been asked to opine 22 A. It is. 23 Q. During what period of time have you 21 on? 24 been asked to opine on the structure and 25 function of Facebook's messaging system? Page 180 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So I've -- I've looked at it really 2 throughout the -- the time that the code and 3 the documents covered, which I believe 4 basically go back to 2009. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. So I've provided opinions on that 7 whole period but obviously focused on the class 8 period, which I believe starts in2000 -- end of 9 -- very end of 2011. 10 Q. Okay. So you're starting -- you've 11 -- I understand you've looked at documents and 12 code going back to 2009. 13 14 But how far in the -- in the future then from 2009 are you going -- 15 A. Oh. 16 Q. -- specifically with respect to your 17 opinion on the structure and function of 18 Facebook's messaging system? 19 A. So I have a few documents from post 20 2012 that I've considered, but I think the bulk 21 of the material I have, including the source 22 code, only goes up to December of 2012. 23 Q. Okay. Would you feel comfortable 24 opining on the structure and function of 25 Facebook's messaging system after 2012? Page 181 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So it depends on the questions that 2 you have for me. 3 that I think I'd be very comfortable with. 4 others, depending on how detailed the question 5 is -- 6 Q. There are some things that -And You're not assuming that the code 7 that exists now is the same as it was in 2012, 8 are you? 9 A. I'm sure the code has changed. The 10 -- my -- my understanding -- and again, this is 11 getting into legal details -- is that the code 12 that is -- that we were provided, which goes up 13 I think to December 30th, 2012, is the code 14 that Facebook thought was relevant. 15 what I have to go on. 16 Q. So that's Right. 17 But again, my question is you're not 18 assuming the code in existence now is the same 19 it was -- as it was in 2012. 20 that assumption. 21 Or are you? 22 23 A. No. I'm -- I'm certain that there have been changes to the code since 2012. 24 25 You're not making Q. You don't know what those changes are? Page 182 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. B on Page 4, the second topic 3 you've been asked to opine on is: 4 interception of private message content." 5 "Facebook's You see that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. What do you mean by the word 8 9 "interception"? A. So my understanding, as it applies 10 here, is essentially that it's the redirection 11 of the private message content to be used by 12 code that's -- that's not related to or 13 necessary for the delivery of the private 14 message. 15 16 17 Q. What do you mean by redirection of the private message content? A. That the content of the message -- 18 I'm just trying to think how to rephrase that 19 because it makes sense to me. 20 The content of the message is sent 21 to code that is -- that performs some other 22 purpose than delivering the message. 23 24 25 Q. Content of the message is sent to Facebook code? A. In this case, we're talking about Page 183 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Facebook code. 2 if it were third party code, too, depending. 3 Q. I think my analysis would apply But you're not claiming that 4 Facebook is redirecting the content of private 5 messages to third parties, are you? 6 7 8 9 A. That's correct. I'm not claiming that. Q. Okay. So when you talk about an interception, you're talking about the 10 redirection of private message content within 11 another part of Facebook for purposes that you 12 think are necessary to deliver the message? 13 A. That's a fair summary, yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 What do you mean when you -- when -- by "private message content"? 16 A. What's unclear about that? 17 Q. I'm not saying it's unclear. I'm 18 just trying to figure out what you're -- 19 what -- what specifically you're talking about. 20 A. Oh. I'm not trying to be snarky, 21 but I would say it's the content of private 22 messages. 23 detail -- 24 25 Q. I -- I -- I'm just not sure what So everything that I type into -- if I send you a message, everything that I type Page 184 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 into the text box -- 2 A. Would be content. 3 Q. That's the contents? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. -- discussing before, we were 7 As we were -- talking about the URL attachments, which are -- 8 Q. Right. 9 A. -- obviously core at issue here. 10 would consider those part of the message 11 I content. 12 Q. 13 Okay. That's what I'm getting at. So that's -- you think -- your view 14 is an attachment of a URL preview is also 15 content. 16 A. That is, yes. 17 Q. Okay. Were you asked to assume that 18 there would have been a, to use your term, 19 interception? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. 22 You reached that conclusion on your own? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. Going back to Paragraph 16, you have 25 a sub-bullet point -- or not a bullet point -Page 185 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 but a sub Roman numeral. It says: "Whether in 2 what devices Facebook employs to intercept 3 message content." 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What do you mean by "devices"? 6 A. So in this case, code that, as I 7 said before, is not code used to deliver the 8 message. 9 10 Q. It's basically separate code. You've also been asked to opine on whether the interceptions occurred in transit? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What do you mean by "in transit"? 13 A. So whether that redirection of the 14 content to that code -- 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. -- took place when the message was 17 not in storage. 18 that message would send and it was delivered to 19 the recipient, that -- that would be the 20 transit period if it was done when the message 21 was between those phases and not in storage. 22 Q. Uh-huh. So basically between the point What -- what do you mean 23 when you say "in storage"? 24 storage are you talking about? 25 A. What kind of So in this case, I would be talking Page 186 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 about, you know, stored in a database, some 2 type of permanent storage where the message 3 kind of sits and is held and can be accessed 4 later. 5 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. You were also asked 6 to opine on whether the interception of private 7 message content was necessary for Facebook to 8 deliver private messages? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What do you mean by "necessary"? 11 A. Since these are messages going 12 through Facebook, right, I type it in the 13 Facebook Messenger. 14 by Facebook to another user. 15 I send it. It's deliver Facebook obviously has to have that 16 message in order to deliver it, right? 17 fact that Facebook had and delivered the 18 message doesn't mean that it was an 19 interception that -- that would cause any 20 problems under the issues that are at stake 21 here. 22 So the So I was really looking at if the 23 content of the message was passed to code and 24 the code was not a necessary part of that 25 delivery process. Page 187 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Is it your understanding that that's 2 a -- that whether or not the code was val- -- 3 was necessary for the delivery process, is it 4 your understanding that that's -- that's a -- 5 somehow important to the -- to the lawsuit? 6 7 8 A. important to the lawsuit. Q. 9 10 It's my understanding that that is In what way? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 11 BY MR. JESSEN: 12 Q. You can answer. 13 A. Okay. So yeah. I -- I don't want 14 to give too much of a legal opinion. My 15 understanding of the law is that, if Facebook 16 took the message content and, say, put it 17 through a spam filter, which is one issue that 18 we've talked about -- 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. -- that that wouldn't necessarily 21 22 constitute a legal problem here. I haven't really analyzed the spam 23 filters in particular, but there are processes 24 which could be necessary towards the 25 functioning of the messaging system and others Page 188 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that aren't. 2 And this -- whether or not it's 3 necessary, my understanding, is important for 4 whether or not these laws were violated. 5 Q. So your understanding is that, if a 6 message is processed for a reason that's not 7 necessary to the delivering of the message, 8 that the two laws at issue in this case are 9 violated? 10 11 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 12 THE WITNESS: I feel like there's a 13 lot of subtlety not captured in what you just 14 said. 15 16 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, I'm just trying to -- I'm 17 trying to understand why you think it's 18 important whether or not a specific 19 functionality was necessary for the delivery to 20 the -- delivery of the message. 21 you said that you thought that was like an 22 important issue in the case. 23 And I think And so I'm just asking you like is 24 it your -- are you under the impression -- I'm 25 not trying to put words in your mouth -- that, Page 189 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 if a process -- an electronic process takes 2 place on a message -- on a Facebook message 3 that's not necessary to delivering the message, 4 that that violates the statutes at issue in 5 this case? 6 7 MR. RUDOLPH: legal conclusion. 8 9 Objection. Calls for Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: So if I can rephrase that maybe to better reflect my understanding. 10 BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. It's that, if the message is 13 intercepted and processed by some code, and 14 that code is necessary for the delivery, it's 15 my understanding that the lawsuit at issue in 16 this case would not be violated. 17 of flipping around what you said. 18 So it's kind I -- from the way that you phrased 19 it, if it's intercepted by code that's not 20 necessary, I think other things have to be true 21 for the laws to be violated. 22 Q. What other things? 23 A. For example, bullet point B2 there, 24 25 that it has to occur in transit. Q. So your understanding is, if there Page 190 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 is some electronic process that occurs in 2 transit that's not necessary to delivering the 3 message, then that would violate these laws. 4 5 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 6 THE WITNESS: 7 pushing my legal education here. 8 9 Yeah. You're really So I think those things need to be true. My understanding of the law is that 10 there also has to be a device that does that 11 interception. 12 13 14 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Is it necessary to filter messages for spam in order to deliver them? 15 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 17 "necessary"? 18 19 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, you're talking in your report 20 about things that are necessary. And so I'm 21 using it in the same way you're using it. 22 Can I -- can Facebook 23 technologically deliver private messages 24 without filtering them for spam? 25 A. So to that question, can Facebook Page 191 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 technologically deliver messages -- 2 Q. Uh-huh. 3 A. -- without filtering them for spam, 4 5 they can. Q. Okay. But you're not of the view, I 6 gather, that filtering messages for spam 7 violates these laws, are you? 8 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Calls for legal conclusion. 10 THE WITNESS: I haven't formed an -- 11 I haven't stated an opinion on that either way 12 here. 13 implemented, whether or not it would violate 14 these laws. 15 I suppose it could depend on how it's I haven't thought deeply about it. I could see it going either way. 16 It's not the basis of my conclusions here 17 though. 18 19 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. 20 Understood. Okay. Going down to the next 21 subpoint, C, Facebook's subsequent use of that 22 private message content, that's something else 23 you've been asked to opine on. 24 25 What do you mean by "use"? A. What Facebook does with the content Page 192 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 that is intercepted from the private messages. Q. And what content are you referring to specifically? A. So most of -- I think most of what I 5 address in here is the information about the 6 URLs that are attached in those messages. 7 Q. So the -- the URL attachment. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What's the difference, in your mind, 10 11 between an interception and subsequent use? A. That the interception is actually 12 collecting the content and using it as 13 deploying it in some way. 14 15 Q. What do you mean by "collecting the content"? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Can you read 17 back to me what I -- what my answer just was? 18 Because I was trying to phrase that, and then 19 it all just went out of my head. 20 MR. JESSEN: I -- Maybe the court 21 reporter would read it back, her answer 22 beginning with "That the interception." 23 Or if -- you know, I can do it. 24 BY MR. JESSEN: 25 Q. So I asked you: "What's the Page 193 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 difference, in your mind, between an 2 interception and subsequent use?" 3 And your answer was: "That the 4 interception is actually collecting the content 5 and using it" -- "using it as deploying it in 6 some way." 7 A. 8 Yeah. That's not the most artful answer there. 9 So the quest- -- just -- just so I'm 10 clear in my head, the question is the 11 difference between intercepting and using? 12 Q. Correct. 13 A. So maybe I can address it the way 14 that I have in the report, and we'll see if 15 that answers your question. 16 Q. Sure. 17 A. So -- actually, let me do it this 18 way. Give me one second. 19 Q. Of course. 20 A. So the way that I presented it 21 here -- because I've separated them out into 22 two different sections. 23 interception. 24 hopefully that -- this will clarify what I see 25 as the difference. Section 3 is on the Section 4 is on the use. So Page 194 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 What I've addressed in Section 3 on 2 the interception is basically collecting, 3 logging, storing information about the private 4 message content. 5 specific things if you want, but that's a 6 general answer. And we can talk about the 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. In Section 4 where I'm talking about 9 the use, I'm talking about, once that "dorta" 10 -- once -- once that data was stored, what did 11 Facebook use it for elsewhere in the system. 12 And I talk specifically about how 13 it's used for recommendations and then the 14 social plug-ins. 15 is stored and collected, what do they do with 16 it. 17 Q. So basically, after the data And when -- in that answer when you 18 talk about once the data is stored, you're 19 referring there to persistent storage? 20 A. So it is persistent storage that I'm 21 talking about there. 22 different than the storage question we were 23 discussing before. 24 25 Q. That's a little bit Right. I'm just -- I just want to Page 195 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 understand, when you say -- when you talk about 2 uses of private message content, what you mean 3 by that. 4 And this is -- tell me if I'm wrong, 5 but the distinction you're drawing between the 6 interception and the use is uses refer to 7 things that are done with the private message 8 content after that information is in permanent 9 or persistent storage. 10 A. Which information? 11 Q. The private message content which 12 13 14 you're saying is intercepted. A. I -- I don't think -- I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. So -- so I'm not talking about the 17 Help me. message being in permanent storage. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Right? I'm talking about, in this 20 case, the message is intercepted -- and I don't 21 know. 22 we're talking about content -- information 23 about that message is logged or otherwise 24 recorded. 25 Q. Maybe to get into specifics to help, So not the message itself. Uh-huh. Page 196 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. But -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- in this case, information about 4 the URLs. 5 Q. Uh-huh. 6 A. The use -- when I'm talking about 7 the use of that information, I'm talking about 8 the use of the data produced from the 9 interception, basically. 10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. And that is in storage, the logs 12 that came from the sharing of the messages, the 13 other data that's recorded there. 14 So I don't know if that -- 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. I understand. 18 19 No. And that's -- that's in persistent storage? 20 A. I believe that's true, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 worry. 23 a little more detail. 24 25 Okay. Yeah. And don't We'll -- we'll delve into this in -- in Going back to Paragraph 16. A. Uh-huh. Page 197 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. One other issue that you have been 2 asked to opine on is whether the class members 3 can be readily determined based on Facebook's 4 own records? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who do you understand to be the 7 8 9 proposed class members? A. So my understanding is that it's people since the start of the class period who 10 have sent private message on -- private 11 messages on Facebook with URL attachments. 12 13 Q. And the start of the class period is December 30th, 2011? 14 A. That's my understand. 15 Q. Two years before the lawsuit was 16 filed? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. To -- do you know when it end -- 19 20 21 22 when the class ends, the proposed class? A. I'm not exactly sure, and it may go up to the present. Q. You also have an understanding that 23 it's not just people who have sent private 24 Facebook Messages but also recipients of those 25 messages with URL -Page 198 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Oh, yeah. I -- 2 Q. -- with URLs? 3 A. I believe that's the case, yes. 4 Q. Okay. Then finally you've been 5 asked to opine on whether the Face- -- whether 6 Facebook's unifor- -- whether Facebook 7 uniformly processed private messages during the 8 relevant period. 9 And what do you mean -- when you 10 talk about the relevant period there, what is 11 that period? 12 A. The class period. 13 Q. Okay. 14 So December 30th, 2011, up to the present day, potentially? 15 A. Potentially. 16 Q. And I know we talked a little bit 17 about this earlier, but do you feel competent 18 to give opinions about Facebook's messaging 19 system after December 2012 to a reasonable 20 degree of computer science certainty? 21 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I understand the 23 24 25 question. Form. I'm -- just give me a second. So I've looked at the code certainly from the beginning of the class period up Page 199 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 through the end of the time the source code was 2 provided. 3 period. 4 So I can speak solidly on that I'm left with basically what I've 5 been told, which is that Facebook said that was 6 the code that was relevant for the class 7 period. 8 If that's the case, then -- and -- 9 and here we're getting into kind of how I've 10 been informed about the process of this case 11 going, right? 12 So if it's the case that Facebook 13 says the code that's relevant is -- is this 14 code, and it goes through December 30th, 2012, 15 that makes me believe that Facebook thinks 16 there were no relevant changes since that 17 period or else I would have seen that code. 18 I would love to see that code, for 19 what it's worth. 20 assertions beyond what I've been able to look 21 at. 22 Q. But I can't make any certain So it sounds like that's a long way 23 of saying no, which -- which to go back to my 24 question, do you feel competent to give 25 opinions about Facebook's messaging system Page 200 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 after December 2012 to a reasonable degree of 2 computer science certainty? 3 4 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Misstates prior testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: 6 BY MR. JESSEN: 7 Q. So -- And I -- I -- because we're limited 8 on time, I mean I -- I understand what you've 9 said about what you've been informed and 10 whatnot. 11 I just want to know can -- do you 12 feel comfortable or competent to give me 13 opinions on the messaging system after December 14 2012 to a reasonable degree of computer science 15 certainty? 16 17 MR. RUDOLPH: Object to form. Asked and answered. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean it's -- 19 I would like a stronger answer on this 20 question. 21 didn't produce any code after 2012 because they 22 don't think there's any relevant code there, 23 then I would be very certain about this. 24 Facebook doesn't think there's anything 25 interesting for me to see since that point. Like if it's the case that Facebook Page 201 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 If there's some other reason that 2 Facebook hasn't produced code since 2012, then 3 I'm kind of left in the dark. 4 5 So it depends on the answer to this question -- 6 BY MR. JESSEN: 7 Q. So -- 8 A. -- right? 9 So I've been informed that that's the case, that Facebook said this 10 is all the relevant code. And if that's the 11 case, then I can make that determination. 12 But I feel like there's legal things 13 going on that are -- are different from what I 14 might want to have access to. 15 so based on what I've been told, I'll make that 16 conclusion. 17 that I don't know about, then -- then I could 18 see there being, you know, a different 19 conclusion potentially to draw starting in 20 2013. 21 And -- you know, If there's other things going on I'm -- I really want to answer your 22 question, but I feel like this is -- you know, 23 there's not just science happening in this 24 space in terms of what I've been given access 25 to. Page 202 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. 2 Right. So you feel comfortable giving 3 opinions about the operation of Facebook's 4 messaging system after December 2012 only on 5 the assumption that there have not been any 6 material changes since that time; is that fair? 7 A. That's definitely fair. 8 Q. But otherwise, if that weren't 9 10 correct, then you probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. 11 12 MR. RUDOLPH: prior testimony. 13 14 Objection. Misstates Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: I would certainly want to see something from 2013 on. 15 BY MR. JESSEN: 16 Q. Uh-huh. 17 A. If -- if I were informed that the 18 Facebook code had substantial changes in the 19 messaging architecture since then, I would like 20 to see the code. 21 documentation that might stand in place of the 22 code, but I would want more of that information 23 than I have now. 24 25 Q. I could potentially see other Let me ask you this question: There are a number of practices -- and we're going to Page 203 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 get into them -- which you describe in your 2 report and -- and say at one point have 3 happened at Facebook. 4 Can you tell me, to a reasonable 5 degree of computer science certainty, whether 6 those things are still happening today? 7 8 A. So we're talking about the -- the things in the section on use, for example. 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. I -- I know we'll get into them 11 specifically, but in -- 12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. -- Section 4. 14 Q. We'll get into it in more detail, 15 16 Yeah, so -- but I just want to start at a high level. A. Yeah. The answer's no. So I was 17 able to verify, you know, for some of them, 18 2010, 2011, that those practices were 19 happening. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. Have not been able to find yet in 22 the code whether it's still happening or not. 23 And there's evidence that makes me believe it 24 is, but I haven't been able to verify that with 25 any degree of certainty. Page 204 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. Okay. So now let's look at 2 Paragraph 17. These are the opinions -- an 3 overview of the opinions that you're actually 4 offering, correct? 5 A. That looks right. 6 Q. Okay. So we're going to get into A: 7 "The structure and function of Facebook's 8 messaging description is described in detail in 9 Section 3 below." 10 We'll go talk about that. Your second conclusion, B, is: 11 "Facebook intercepted and redirected users' 12 private message content using various 13 code-based devices while the message was in 14 transit, and this interception was not 15 necessary for Facebook to deliver private 16 messages." 17 See that? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. There you -- you use the words both 20 "intercepted" and "redirected." 21 Were you drawing a distinction 22 between those two things, or are they -- are 23 you describing the same -- do they describe the 24 same thing? 25 A. I think I'm describing the same Page 205 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 thing there. Q. Part of the conclusion is that 3 Facebook intercepted and redirected users 4 private message content using various 5 code-based devices. 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. What does that mean, "code-based 8 9 devices"? A. So we discussed devices back up in 10 Paragraph 16. I was asked to give an opinion 11 if there was a device -- in B1 -- 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. -- whether and what devices -- 14 Q. Right. 15 A. -- Facebook employs. So this is the 16 code that intercepts the messages. 17 That's what the code-based devices are. 18 Q. The Facebook source code. 19 A. Specific parts of the Facebook 20 21 22 source code. Q. Uh-huh. Have you ever used the term "code-based devices" in your academic career? 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Why not? 25 A. This is not the kind of thing I Page 206 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 study. 2 don't think, yeah. 3 4 I don't write about code at all, I Q. Why are you using that terminology here "various code-based devices"? 5 A. I don't understand the question. 6 Q. Well, I guess it makes sense -- if 7 you were saying -- if you were describing 8 something that the source code were -- was 9 doing, I could understand that. 10 But why are you referring to 11 portions of the source code, lines of source 12 code as devices? 13 A. So I was asked to give an opinion on 14 whether there were devices that intercepted 15 messages. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. There are things that intercept 18 messages. 19 And my understanding of "device," as I was 20 asked to give an opinion on, is that these 21 particular lines of code would be that device 22 that's doing the interception. 23 Q. That's these specific lines of code. You were -- you were asked to assume 24 that lines of source code could be a device, or 25 you reached that conclusion independently? Page 207 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I was not asked to assume anything. 2 I was asked to give an opinion on if Facebook 3 had a device that intercepted messages. 4 found lines of code that I believe intercept 5 the messages. 6 opinion on a device. 7 code is the device that does the interception. 8 9 10 Q. I And so I was asked to give an Yeah, it seems like that But you've never referred to source code previously in your academic career as a device, have you? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. What is a device? 13 A. It's a thing that does a thing. 14 Q. Okay. Your conclusion C is: 15 "Facebook used the intercepted private message 16 content to provide recommendations to Facebook 17 users and to provide analytics to third-party 18 developers and Web sites as well as increment 19 the Like social plug-in counter." 20 You see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What do you mean by 23 "recommendations"? 24 A. Suggesting content. 25 Q. What kind of content specifically? Page 208 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So I believe in this case we're 2 talking about suggesting URLs that other users 3 would be interested in seeing. 4 Q. And by the way, is it fair to 5 assume -- and again, we'll get into it in more 6 detail. 7 But when you talk about the 8 intercepted private message content, you're 9 talking about the URL attachment? 10 A. I think that's safe, yeah. 11 Q. Okay. You also talk about your 12 conclusion is that Facebook used this content 13 to provide analytics to third-party developers 14 and Web sites. 15 What do you mean by "analytics"? 16 A. Let me just go to that section. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. So I discuss this -- and I'm sure 19 we'll get there eventually -- 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. -- in the section on in- -- the 22 "Insights in Developer API" that provides 23 information about how users are interacting 24 with particular URLs and potentially breakdowns 25 of demographic information based on that Page 209 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 activity. Q. None of that information that you're 3 referring to when you talk about analytics is 4 personally identifiable information, is it? 5 A. I don't believe it is. 6 Q. Okay. 7 8 9 That would be sort of aggregated, anonymous data? A. In general, I think that's right. I -- you know, I can think of some edge cases 10 that may have ended up being personally 11 identifiable, but that's the exception and not 12 the rule. 13 Q. Okay. You talk about providing 14 analytics to the third-party developers and Web 15 sites. 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Are you drawing any kind of 18 distinction between third-party developers and 19 Web sites? 20 A. Let me make sure before I -- 21 Q. Sure. 22 A. -- answer that. 23 So I don't think I've drawn a 24 distinction here. I think with that section, 25 flipping back through here, I'm -- I'm Page 210 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 referring particularly to the API queries. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I -- I believe that's what I'm 4 5 6 referring to there. Q. And do you understand the API queries to be different than the insights? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What's your understanding of the 9 10 difference between those two things? A. So insights was really a -- I think 11 of it as a dashboard, right? 12 go look at statistics. 13 at which you can write code to interact with 14 and make queries to Facebook. 15 A place you can The API is just a point I don't know that -- there's 16 certainly some overlap in the data that you can 17 get from either. 18 what the data is. 19 need the dashboard, and you -- you're writing 20 code with an API query. 21 Q. I don't think it's the same, But with the insights you And you understand that, with the 22 insights, that was information that was 23 available to the owner of that particular 24 domain? 25 A. That's my understanding of it, yes. Page 211 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. Okay. And then your final 2 two conclusions, which I'm not going to get 3 into in detail now, but we'll -- we'll touch on 4 it a bit: 5 from Facebook's own records using various query 6 methods and through self-identification," and, 7 "Facebook source code operated consistently 8 during the relevant period," correct? "Class members can be determined 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you have any understanding as to 11 the relevance of your conclusions to 12 plaintiffs' motion for class certification? 13 14 A. I'd I have a high-level understanding. 15 Q. What is it? 16 A. That for class certification -- so 17 am I -- are you asking kind of in general for 18 all of these conclusions? 19 Q. Sure. 20 A. Okay. So that last point, that the 21 class members can be determined, it's my 22 understanding that that speaks to 23 ascertainability, which is necessary for class 24 certification. 25 And the conclusions about Page 212 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 intercepting the message with a device in 2 transit, I don't know that that has to do with 3 the class but has to do with whether Facebook 4 is doing what they're accused of doing. 5 I don't understand the -- like all 6 the in-depth legal issues, but I don't know if 7 they'd certify a ascertainable class if they 8 didn't think Facebook was doing anything wrong. 9 So it seems like the two go together. 10 Q. Do you intend to offer any other 11 opinions or conclusions other than those listed 12 in your report? 13 A. Like ever? 14 Q. Well, in this case. 15 A. Okay. 16 I meant that. So my understanding is that 17 discovery is still open. 18 possibility that I may come across new 19 information. 20 Q. So I think there's a Do you have -- you have any other 21 opinions now that you're aware of that you are 22 planning to give that are not reflected in this 23 report? 24 A. Not right now. 25 Q. Okay. I don't think so. Since you finalized your Page 213 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 report, have you conducted any additional 2 research or reviewed any additional documents 3 related to this matter? 4 5 A. We're certainly still reviewing source code, and I've -- 6 Q. Right. 7 A. -- been talking to David Cartt -- 8 Q. Uh-huh. 9 A. -- and guiding him through what to 10 look at there. 11 I don't believe I've looked at any 12 new documents from Facebook since submitting 13 the report. 14 been any. 15 Q. And I don't know if there have In the course of your review and 16 analysis in this case, have you seen any 17 evidence that Facebook ever -- Facebook ever 18 used URLs shared in private messages to deliver 19 user profiles? 20 MR. RUDOLPH: 21 BY MR. JESSEN: 22 23 24 25 Q. Sorry. Objection. I meant develop. Vague. Develop user profiles. A. Oh. You know, it depends what you mean by a user profile. Page 214 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 Q. Well, what do you -- what does that mean to you? A. So I have seen evidence that there's 4 data recorded about specific users and the URLs 5 that they shared in a database. 6 In a way that it could be -- I mean 7 I could actually write the one line of code, 8 having seen the Facebook code, that would allow 9 me to pull up for a user a list of all the URLs 10 that they had shared. 11 legitimately could be called a user profile. 12 I think that I haven't seen that query itself in 13 the Facebook code. 14 data is there makes me feel like there -- that 15 we're pretty close to having a user profile 16 from the record of those URL attachments. 17 Q. But the fact that all that Doesn't Facebook -- I mean Facebook 18 Messages are sitting on Facebook servers, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So they have all the messages that 22 23 24 25 anyone on Facebook has ever sent, right? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Lacks foundation. THE WITNESS: It's my understanding Page 215 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that that's true. 2 3 4 5 6 7 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Do you consider that to be a user profile as well? A. I would not nec- -- no. I don't think I'd consider that to be a user profile. Q. Do you have -- have you seen any 8 evidence that Facebook ever used URLs shared in 9 private messages to develop user profiles for 10 the purpose of deliver -- delivering targeted 11 advertising? 12 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Again, depends on your 14 definition of "targeted advertising." 15 16 Is there a particular kind that you -- 17 18 Vague. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, you've studied this. You have 19 some -- what do you understand "targeting 20 advertising" to mean? 21 22 A. Yeah. I mean we define our own things in research. 23 Q. Right. 24 A. So, you know, I'd say we have, for 25 example, Facebook recommending URLs to people Page 216 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 based on data gathered from private message 2 shares. 3 of targeted advertising, that Facebook is 4 advertising these URLs to users. I think that can be considered a form 5 Q. But would -- 6 A. I'm not sure if that's what you're 7 8 asking. Q. Well, no. 9 I mean you actually think that that 10 was -- someone suggesting a URL was a form of 11 advertising? 12 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I mean academically we 14 Form. totally would count that in the space of -- 15 BY MR. JESSEN: 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. -- recommender systems. I mean 18 because you think about it like Amazon 19 recommends you something. 20 advertising that thing to you. 21 22 23 Q. It's totally But they're -- they're recommending something that you should buy. A. Yeah. So if -- if you want to 24 restrict this to people buying things. 25 But academically -Page 217 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Well -- 2 A. -- we don't make that distinction. 3 Q. -- let's talk -- I mean earlier you 4 talked about a Web site that you developed when 5 you were doing your thesis, and you said there 6 was no advertising. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. But you also said it was making 9 recommendations and ratings. 10 A. But it wasn't -- 11 Q. So -- 12 A. -- it wasn't doing the 13 recommendations in this way, which -- which I 14 mentioned, right? 15 16 You could go to a page, and it would tell you how much it thought you would like it. 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. But it wouldn't proactively suggest. 19 That active offering and proactive suggestion, 20 in the literature, the academic space I work 21 in -- 22 Q. Right. 23 A. -- is very much the same thing as 24 targeted advertising. So academically I would 25 link those things together. Page 218 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 I could see a way that -- that 2 they're distinguished, but I'd want to know how 3 you're considering it. 4 Q. Well, I mean but do you understand 5 advertising is something that's done in order 6 to generate revenue by the entity that's doing 7 the advertising? 8 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Lacks foundation. 10 THE WITNESS: So I think that that's 11 a fine definition. 12 rules out recommended URLs on Facebook as a 13 form of targeted advertising since it's 14 Facebook doing the advertising. 15 16 17 18 I don't think that actually BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Have you -- Facebook's doing what advertising? A. If Facebook's recommending URLs to 19 someone, then that's a form of targeted 20 advertising, and Facebook potentially can 21 profit from that by increased engagement. 22 If you have a specific question -- 23 Q. Well -- 24 A. -- that -- 25 Q. Well, I'm just -- you're -- you're Page 219 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 starting to give opinions that aren't in your 2 report, which -- 3 A. Which I'd love not to do. 4 Q. -- makes me wonder if -- that's part 5 of the reason I went over like are these all 6 your opinions earlier. 7 So let me ask it this way: Do you 8 have any opinion given in this report regarding 9 whether or not Facebook has used URLs shared in 10 private messages to develop user profiles? 11 A. So are you going to ask me that 12 question also about advertising? Because I 13 want to flip through just to remind myself. 14 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask -- 15 A. And so I want to look -- 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. -- at them both at the same time. 18 Q. Of course. 19 A. All right. 20 Q. Sure. 21 A. I'll do it as quick as I can. 22 Q. Of course. 23 A. So looking through here -- so if I 24 catch it that I've missed it later on, I'll say 25 so. But I don't -Page 220 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Sure. 2 A. -- believe that -- it doesn't look 3 like anywhere I've discussed explicitly user 4 profiles or targeted advertising. 5 Q. Okay. So you're not -- you're not 6 offering an opinion on -- you're not offering 7 any opinion on whether or not Facebook has used 8 private message content, to use your term, to 9 build user profiles or serve target 10 11 12 13 14 15 advertisements, correct? A. So I have no opinions that explicitly use those terms here. Q. But do you have opinions that you think fall under that umbrella? A. I mean it's the discussion that we 16 were just having. So I wasn't -- I wasn't 17 asked to offer an opinion on specifically -- I 18 mean I don't think it says like, "Is there a 19 user profile created? 20 advertising" -- Is there targeted 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. -- "done?" right? 23 Q. You weren't -- 24 A. So I -- 25 Q. -- asked to offer an opinion on Page 221 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that. 2 A. I don't believe so. 3 Q. Earlier you mentioned, when you were 4 talking about the different parts of 5 Facebook -- "What is Facebook?" I asked you, 6 and you said -- 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. -- there was a -- there was a part 9 10 of it that had a -- you said -- you mentioned an advertising component. 11 And when I talk about targeted 12 advertising, that's really what I'm talking 13 about -- 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. -- the advertising components of 16 17 Facebook as discussed by you earlier. And I guess my question is do you 18 have any evidence that URLs shared in private 19 messages were ever used in connection with that 20 advertising component? 21 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: So from what I've Form. 23 seen, I don't have any evidence that -- that 24 those URL shares were used for that kind of 25 targeted advertising. Page 222 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. 3 You -- you -- okay. You have information that some 4 shares were used for recommendations but not 5 for that kind of target advertising. 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Okay. Okay. Let's look at 8 Paragraph 19. And this is under the section of 9 your report titled "Facebook's Interception of 10 Private Message Content." 11 talk about Facebook's private message 12 architecture or functionality. 13 providing an overview of Facebook's private 14 message architecture. 15 And you initially In here you're Paragraph 19 you're -- and you're 16 describing sort of what happens when someone 17 types a URL into a private message. 18 You say: "She types her text, and 19 if she types, pastes or otherwise enters a URL 20 into the body of the message, Facebook detects 21 the URL as she types. 22 extracts the URL from the message and sends it 23 to Facebook servers." 24 25 Once it sees a URL, it See that? A. I do. Page 223 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Are you claiming that that process 2 is a -- an interception or redirection of 3 private message content? 4 A. Yes. I know I have a specific 5 statement about this in here that I just want 6 to look up. Well, we'll probably get there. 7 Q. Sure. 8 A. Okay. 9 But no. So I'm not claiming that this particular part of the process, 10 basically putting that preview into the message 11 before I send it, I'm not claiming that that's 12 the interception. 13 Q. Okay. Why not? 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: That's a really 16 complicated question. 17 18 Are you asking me to list why it wouldn't count? 19 20 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, why don't -- I guess you're -- 21 why don't you think that's an interception or 22 redirection? 23 A. It potentially could be an 24 interception. I -- so -- so this is an issue 25 that I've thought a little about. But again, Page 224 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 like it's getting into legal things that I 2 don't have a full grasp of. 3 Can there be a perfectly allowable 4 interception? 5 if it's like totally allowed under every law? 6 That's a kind of legal question, right? 7 like that's actually the nature of what you're 8 asking me. 9 Q. We can move on. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And -- 12 A. -- trying to be difficult. 14 Q. No, no, no. 15 A. -- know that -- 16 Q. No. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Let's move on. 13 Does it count as an interception I feel Like -- I'm not -- I just -- 19 Okay. I just -- it's okay. Then you drop a footnote at 20 the end of Paragraph 19, Footnote 3, which 21 says: 22 which the Facebook system operates. 23 code and data, run the code, provide Web 24 content and manage back-end functionality. 25 Essentially every part of Facebook, other than "Facebook servers are the computers on They store Page 225 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 the code that runs in the user's browser, is 2 running on Facebook servers, and those servers 3 provide every element of Facebook that a user 4 interacts with." 5 Did I read that correctly? 6 A. That looks right. 7 Q. You would agree with me that those 8 servers -- those Facebook servers are necessary 9 to the operation of Facebook's messaging 10 system? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You talk a little bit about 13 JavaScript in some of your paragraphs, and I'm 14 not going to get into too much detail, but one 15 of the points you make is that most -- a high 16 percentage of users -- Internet users have 17 JavaScript enabled? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would you agree with me that, even 20 if the total percentage is only 1 to 2, which 21 some of the -- some of the things here -- you 22 cite in Paragraph 21 say, that that's still 23 millions and millions of people -- 24 MR. RUDOLPH: 25 Objection. Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Page 226 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. -- running browsers that don't have JavaScript enabled? 3 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Are we talking in the 5 Form. U.S. or worldwide? 6 BY MR. JESSEN: 7 Q. In the U.S. 8 A. It gets you to about a million, I 9 think, right, if we're doing 1 percent of like 10 how many computers are there. 11 person? 12 13 Q. All right. Is there one per We can look at the article, but I -- given the time constraint... 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. It's a lot of people. 16 A. A lot. 17 Q. Okay. In Paragraph 22 you talk 18 about -- you say: "The URL detection process 19 is also described by Ray He, an engineer at 20 Facebook. 21 deposition, Mr. He states, 'When the user types 22 in a URL, the client-side code -- well, this is 23 the JavaScript -- running on the user's 24 browser, would defect that the entered a URL 25 and will attempt to create an attachment for In his September 25th, 2015 Page 227 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 them to sends.'" 2 Do you see that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. And then in Paragraph 23 you say, 5 based upon your analysis of Facebook source 6 code, the process appears in certain files, 7 right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And I just want to confirm -- this 10 tracks what we were saying earlier -- that 11 process there, you're not saying that's the 12 interception, correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Paragraph 24 you say: "After this 15 code detects that Alice has typed a URL in her 16 private message, a request is sent to Facebook 17 servers to retrieve information" to -- "related 18 to the URL. 19 this information is to create a URL preview 20 within the private message. 21 the preview as a," quote, "brief description of 22 the URL and, if available, a relevant image 23 from the Web," end quote. 24 25 One of the purposes of retrieving Facebook describes What did you mean in the second sentence where you say one of the purposes of Page 228 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 retrieving this information is to create a URL 2 preview? 3 A. Like what are the other purposes? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. So if it's the first time that a 6 user has entered a URL, if Facebook has never 7 seen that URL before -- 8 Q. Right. 9 A. They create other data -- they have 10 data structures in the back end -- about that 11 URL that has information beyond what's included 12 in the preview, for example. 13 14 15 Q. Are you referring to the global share object? A. The global share object. Right. 16 But that gets created if a -- if Facebook sees 17 a URL for the first time. 18 information in that object beyond just what 19 appears in the preview. And there's 20 Q. Well, what other information? 21 A. There's a lot. It has -- so in -- 22 are you asking me in general what's in those 23 global -- 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. -- shared objects. Page 229 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. I mean if you know. 2 A. Yeah. I think they contain some 3 information about when that URL was crawled for 4 the first time. 5 user ID of the person who created -- who 6 initiated that call. 7 They can contain the Facebook Some of them have lists of user IDs 8 of people who have shared that later on. 9 that obviously wouldn't be there on the first 10 time it's accessed. 11 So that data structure. 12 But that is recorded in But the -- if you print it out, 13 there's pages of information that's contained 14 there. 15 Q. Uh-huh. 16 A. Those are the kind of humanly 17 understandable ones that I remember off the top 18 of my head. 19 Q. But do you understand that the 20 purpose of the global share object is to 21 generate a URL preview? The primary purpose. 22 A. I -- I don't understand that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 25 Why not? I mean do you disagree with that, or do you just not have a basis for knowing one Page 230 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 way or the other? 2 A. I think the latter. So I agree -- 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. -- that it's used for that preview. 5 I just don't know if that's its primary purpose 6 within Facebook. 7 Q. You go on to say in Paragraph 25: 8 "The process of detecting the URL within a 9 private message, executing code to find 10 information about the URL and then processing 11 that information analysis message window 12 employs what Facebook refers to as a share 13 scraper or scraper." 14 You see that? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the term 17 "share scraper" or "scraper"? 18 A. I am. 19 Q. You've heard those before? 20 Those -- you've heard those terms before? 21 A. I have. 22 Q. What do you understand them to mean? 23 A. So within the Facebook context or 24 25 general? Q. Both. Page 231 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So "scraper" is a term widely used 2 in -- in this kind of context on the Web where 3 you go out to a page, and you have code that 4 basically processes the content of that page to 5 extract some information. 6 scraping the page. So we call that 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. "Share scraper" I think is a term 9 I've only seen in the Facebook context 10 specifically. 11 describe this process. 12 Q. And that's used in their code to The term "scraper" or "scraping," 13 that doesn't have a pernicious meaning, does 14 it? 15 16 MR. RUDOLPH: Vague. Form. 17 18 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. And what I mean by that is it's 19 describing a process of gathering information 20 from a Web site. 21 22 It's -- is there something sinister about scraping? 23 24 25 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. THE WITNESS: Yeah. Form. Vague. I would say, in Page 232 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 general, no, that it's not generally considered 2 sinister. 3 BY MR. JESSEN: 4 Q. Okay. And then in Footnote 10 you 5 say: "The share scraper is analogous to the 6 Web crawler referenced in Plaintiff's 7 consolidated amended complaint." 8 You see that? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. And there you're referring to the 11 Facebook share scraper when you say the, quote, 12 share scraper? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Basically the same thing. What is a Web crawler? It's a 16 piece of code that goes to a Web site and reads 17 the code for that page and extracts some 18 data -- 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. -- to be used. 21 Q. And in this case, the share scraper 22 or the Web crawler is being used to generate a 23 preview -- a URL preview? 24 25 A. Well, it's used to create that global share object, which -Page 233 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Right. 2 A. -- in turn, will create -- 3 Q. Got it. 4 A. -- the preview. 5 Q. The preview. 6 7 And this happens before the message is sent, correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. You have any understanding about 10 whether this process of scraping is used across 11 Facebook's Web site? 12 For example, if I put a -- if I type 13 a URL into a post on my timeline or my wall, 14 you understand that the same processes are in 15 place to generate the URL preview? 16 A. 17 18 Yes. MR. JESSEN: Okay. I think we've been going a little over an hour. 19 Do you guys want to take a break? 20 THE WITNESS: Great. 21 MR. RUDOLPH: Okay. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 23 Off the record at 2:53. 24 (A short recess was taken.) 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at Page 234 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 3:15. 2 3 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Let's take a look at Paragraph 28 in 4 your report. 5 depiction of a preview in a message window. 6 Right above Paragraph 28 is a Would you agree with that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And in Paragraph 28 you say: 9 "However, this preview analysis message is not 10 the only result of the data structure created 11 by Facebook's code. 12 actually part of an attachment to the message 13 so that, while a preview is rendered visually 14 in Alice's message window, this attachment is 15 separate and distinct from the message itself." 16 The preview returned is Did I read that correctly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The first sentence, what do you mean 19 by that? 20 What do you mean when you say: 21 "This preview analysis message is not the only 22 result of the data structure created by 23 Facebook's code"? 24 25 A. I think -- I think what I'm referring to there is that, in addition to this Page 235 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 preview, there's also that global share object 2 that we were talking about before -- 3 Q. Uh-huh. 4 A. -- the break. 5 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. So it's your 6 understanding that the URL attachment to the 7 message is separate and distinct from the 8 message itself, correct? 9 10 A. I'm -- I'm sorry. Can you just repeat that? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. I was looking at that last sentence 13 there. 14 Q. 15 Sorry. I was just reading from that. 16 It's your understanding -- or the 17 report says the URL attachment to the message 18 is separate and distinct in the message itself? 19 A. Let -- let me just review that. 20 Q. Sure. 21 A. The language is kind of flying out 22 of my head. 23 Q. No worries. 24 A. Right. 25 So I think that is referring to -- there's the message itself. I think Page 236 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that's referring to the text of the message 2 that I send, which can still have that URL in 3 it -- 4 Q. Uh-huh. 5 A. -- but I don't think it has to. 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. And then there's this distinct 8 9 attachment. Q. Okay. Then in Paragraph 30, just 10 skipping ahead, that -- you say: "When Alice 11 finishes the message and hits send, both the 12 text of her message and the URL attachment are 13 sent to Facebook's servers," right? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. Would the URL attachment always be 16 sent with the -- with the text of the message? 17 A. If there is an attachment -- 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. -- then, yeah, I believe, when Alice 20 hits send, both of them always get sent, 21 assuming everything functions the way it's 22 supposed to. 23 24 25 Q. And assuming the user doesn't delete the URL attachment? A. Well, right. So if the attachment Page 237 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 exists, it's sent. 2 then it's not there to be sent. 3 Q. If the user deletes it, Right. 4 Moving back up to Paragraph 29, you 5 say: "As described in further detail below, 6 Facebook has pulled data related to this URL 7 from a global share object, which is a data 8 structure that Facebook uses to track its 9 users' interaction with URLs across the Web." 10 What is the basis for your statement 11 that a global share object is a data structure 12 that Facebook uses to track its users' 13 interactions with URLs across the Web? 14 A. Which part of that? 15 Q. Track its users' across -- track its 16 users' interactions with URLs across the -- the 17 -- the Web. 18 A. So I've -- so I've looked at those 19 global share objects. 20 I've looked at outputs of those. 21 Q. Right. 22 A. And, you know, also looked at code 23 dealing with them. And they have, you know, a 24 number of fields that are used exactly for that 25 purpose, to track how Facebook users are Page 238 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 interacting with the URL represented in that 2 object. 3 Q. What field are you referring to? 4 A. So as I mentioned when we were 5 talking about this before, you know, not having 6 it in front of me, I do recall that some of 7 those have a Facebook ID of the creator, and 8 some of those global share objects also had 9 lists of IDs of users who had shared the 10 object. 11 In addition to that, there are a 12 number of fields tracking how often the URL has 13 been shared, posted, clicked and liked. 14 There's a number of those aggregate scores. 15 Q. Are you referring -- we're going to 16 get to this -- but to the field that's -- I 17 think it's called tracking into? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 understanding that's one field. 21 22 23 Now, it's -- it's my But is that -A. It's one field, but it has five values within it that -- 24 Q. Sure. 25 A. -- represent five different metrics Page 239 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that -- 2 Q. Right. 3 A. -- were tracked. 4 Q. Right. 5 You mentioned that the global share 6 object might have a list of IDs of users who 7 had shared it. 8 9 10 11 And would that include Facebook IDs of users who had shared a URL in a private message? A. So my impression is not. I 12 haven't -- I don't believe I've tracked this in 13 the code. 14 of those global share objects. 15 I've actually looked at the output And, you know, I don't have that 16 here in the reports. 17 just right at hand for me. 18 the case that that list is only people who have 19 posted it in a more public forum. 20 Q. So the details aren't But I believe it's And again, with respect to Paragraph 21 29, you're talking about how the preview is 22 generated. 23 further" -- "further detail below, Facebook has 24 pulled data related to this URL from a global 25 share object." You say: "As described in Page 240 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Why is Facebook pulling data from 2 the global share object, based on your 3 understanding? 4 5 A. Why did they go to the global share object to create that preview? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. So it -- so my understanding is that 8 it's both faster than rescraping the URL every 9 time and that it gives a consistent experience. 10 So for -- I think like for a while, 11 when a new URL comes in, a user's able to edit 12 the title or the description. 13 while, that ability goes away, so everybody 14 seeing that URL gets the same preview. 15 Q. But after a Would pulling -- would Facebook 16 pulling data to generate the preview from the 17 global share object also possibly help avoid 18 crashing certain Web sites by avoiding 19 requesting data from the -- from those sites 20 too many times? 21 22 MR. RUDOLPH: Lacks foundation. Objection. Form. Incomplete hypothetical. 23 THE WITNESS: 24 BY MR. JESSEN: 25 Q. It's possible. And is it your understanding that, Page 241 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 if a user included a URL in a private message, 2 Facebook was always able to detect that URL and 3 create a URL preview to attach to the message? 4 5 6 A. I'm sorry. Repeat that question, please. Q. 7 Yeah. Is it -- was it always the case -- 8 or is it always the case that, if a user types 9 a URL into a private message, that Facebook is 10 able to detect the -- detect that URL and then 11 use that to create a URL preview? 12 A. If the user has JavaScript enabled 13 and, you know, the network's all functioning 14 correctly, I think it's -- it's always the 15 case, yeah. 16 17 18 Q. Do you know if -- what would happen if that -- if the URL is on a URL blacklist? A. So I know Facebook will check 19 against some of those blacklists for malicious 20 URLs. 21 exactly what appears. 22 I don't remem- -- I don't remember You know, I've looked at -- I've 23 seen that happen now. 24 story about that, and I tested it. 25 There was just a new I think now what it does is say Page 242 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 "Unable to create attachment," or something 2 like that. 3 Q. Uh-huh. 4 A. I didn't look into that going back. 5 MR. JESSEN: And one thing I will 6 do -- I should have done this earlier -- we are 7 designating this transcript highly 8 confidential, attorneys' eyes only. 9 parts of it discuss source code as well. I think 10 So that's for the court reporter. 11 BY MR. JESSEN: 12 13 Q. Okay. Okay. Let's go ahead and take a look at Paragraph 32. 14 And this is in the section of your 15 report "Facebook's Interception and Logging of 16 Private Message Content, Creation of Share 17 Objects." 18 In Paragraph 32 you say: "Facebook 19 has large and complex data behind its site. 20 They store this in a data model called TAO, The 21 Associations and Objects. 22 suggests, there are two pieces in this model, 23 objects and associations." 24 25 As the name Did I read that correctly? A. Yes. Page 243 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Is it your understanding that all 2 Facebook data objects and associations are 3 stored in TAO? 4 5 A. That all objects and associations are stored in TAO? 6 Q. Sure. 7 A. That's my understanding. 8 Q. And what do you -- what's your basis 9 10 for that? A. Having read documents from Facebook 11 itself on -- on how they're storing that data, 12 which I have cited there. 13 code, there seems to be this connection between 14 TAO and the objects and associations that I've 15 looked at. 16 Q. Also looking at the Do you -- are there some objects -- 17 I mean does -- is it possible Facebook creates 18 some objects that are not stored in TAO? 19 A. I -- I think it's definitely the 20 case that there's some data that's not stored 21 in TAO. 22 data, what you call an object and not, like 23 that becomes a very kind of fuzzy space. 24 So there -- we've def- -- I've 25 You know, to -- when you're storing definitely seen data that's not stored in TAO Page 244 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 on Facebook. 2 Q. Uh-huh. 3 A. We can probe more deeply if it's an 4 5 object if you want. Q. 6 Sure. Paragraph 33 you say: "Objects 7 represent things on Facebook, users' pages, 8 check-ins, comments, locations, et cetera. 9 Associations represent the relationships 10 between objects. 11 between users, a like that connects a user to a 12 page or a location that is tied to a user 13 check-in." 14 Those could be friendships Do you see that? 15 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 16 Q. And we talked a little bit earlier 17 about objects in the context of object-oriented 18 programming. 19 Do you -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- remember that? 22 And creation of an object in 23 object-oriented programming is not something 24 that's unusual, is it? 25 A. So these are not object-oriented -Page 245 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: These are hot Form. 3 4 object-oriented programming objects that we're 5 talking about here. 6 BY MR. JESSEN: 7 Q. What's your basis for saying that? 8 A. Well, object-oriented programming 9 objects are objects that exist in code as it's 10 being executed, not data that's stored 11 somewhere. 12 Q. 13 somewhere? 14 A. TAO is a -- a data storage system. 15 Q. Uh-huh. 16 A. So it's -- TAO object is not an 17 18 So this is data being stored object-oriented programming language object. Q. So this is a different -- when you 19 talk about these kind of objects, object 20 represent things, you would draw a distinction 21 between those kinds of objects and objects 22 that's are used in object-oriented programming? 23 A. There's -- there's definitely a 24 difference. 25 Objects in both cases represent things. Page 246 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Uh-huh. 2 A. But objects in an object-oriented 3 programming context -- 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. -- are -- if we're going to get 6 technical on it, are instantiations of classes. 7 Q. Right. 8 A. And a class is something that you 9 define in your code. It has a name. It has 10 associated data points, attributes of that 11 class, and associated methods or functions. 12 So to -- to kind of give a simple 13 example, I could create a class in 14 object-oriented programming for a dog, right? 15 And the dog has a -- 16 Q. Uh-huh. 17 A. -- a birthday and a name and a 18 color. 19 there's methods, things the dog can do. 20 could sleep, and it could eat, and it could 21 walk and whatever else. 22 Those are the attributes. And then It So that's a -- a generic concept of 23 what an object would be. And then you 24 instantiate that. 25 dog named Rex in object oriented programming. So I'll make a particular Page 247 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 And that's a -- just a different 2 thing than if a have a -- a data store 3 somewhere that also represents data as object. 4 They're just technically different concepts. 5 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. In Paragraph 34 you 6 say: "There are a number of objects that 7 Facebook creates in the process of scanning 8 private messages that include URLs." 9 You see that? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. What do you mean by the word 12 13 "scanning"? A. So I mean looking at what's in 14 private messages that include URLs. 15 this case we're looking at the URL attachment. 16 17 18 19 Q. And in So Facebook is looking in -- looking in the URL attachment? A. Facebook code is looking at the URL attachment, yes. 20 Q. Is that unusual? 21 A. Compared to what? 22 Q. Anything. 23 Is it an unusual process for 24 Facebook code to be looking at an attachment 25 that is being sent with a -- with a message? Page 248 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Form. THE WITNESS: I mean Facebook does Vague. 3 4 Objection. it for all messages. 5 I don't think that's the question 6 you're asking, but I -- I don't understand what 7 you want me to compare this to. 8 9 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, I asked you what you meant by 10 the word "scanning," and you said that's 11 looking at what's in private messages that 12 included URLs. 13 at the URL attachment. 14 And in this case, we're looking And I'm just trying to understand 15 what you were saying, what you meant by that. 16 I mean you said Facebook code is looking at the 17 URL attachment. 18 But is that different than 19 looking -- looking at the attachment -- or in 20 the attachment, rather? 21 22 A. I don't think that there's a substantive difference -- 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. -- "at" or "in." 25 Q. Earlier you said that an Page 249 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 interception was -- involved collecting 2 content. 3 And you distinguished that from a 4 use, which I think you said -- might have said 5 was deploying that content. 6 those lines. 7 Something along When you said an interception 8 involved collecting content, collecting it from 9 where? 10 A. So in this case, it's -- so the 11 interception involves both collecting and 12 redirection. 13 about collecting information that's in that URL 14 attachment and then redirecting it to code that 15 then operates on it. 16 17 18 Q. So in this case, we're talking And by redirecting it to code, what does that -- what does that mean? A. Taking the information about the 19 message and the URL attachment and directing 20 that to code that is not part of the message 21 delivery process. 22 Q. Okay. If part of the interception 23 is collecting the content, I guess -- sorry if 24 my question was inartful -- but from where is 25 Facebook collecting the content? Page 250 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. From the private message. 2 Q. And where is the private message -- 3 where is it residing when this happens? 4 5 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 I'm not quite sure what you're asking. 8 9 Form. Vague. 6 7 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Is it on a Facebook server? Is it somewhere else? A. It is -- it has been sent to the Facebook server. Q. All right. So it's actually on the Facebook server when that happens. A. Right. As opposed to on the user's computer. Q. Uh-huh. Okay. You go on to say -- 18 after you say there are a number of objects 19 that Facebook creates in the process of 20 scanning the private messages that include 21 URLs: 22 and global URL share objects. 23 share object contains details about the 24 specific user's interaction with the given URL; 25 while the global URL share object contains "Two of these are user URL share objects The user URL Page 251 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 information related to all the interactions 2 between Facebook users and a given URL." 3 See that? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. Do you consider the creation of 6 these two objects -- these two share objects to 7 be unlawful? 8 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 10 THE WITNESS: 11 time with the -- yeah. 12 offering an opinion on whether it's legal or 13 not. 14 Yeah. I have a hard I have a hard time BY MR. JESSEN: 15 Q. Uh-huh. Why is that? 16 A. I am not an expert on this law at 17 all. 18 understanding of the law and what I've been 19 asked to opine on in a technical sense. 20 haven't read this law and definitely not an 21 expert on it. 22 You know, I -- I have a -- a basic Q. But I Do you find it unusual or surprising 23 that Facebook is creating a share object once 24 the URL attachment reaches a Facebook server? 25 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Page 252 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Vague. 2 THE WITNESS: 3 a global share object? 4 5 A user share object or BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Just -- sorry. When I say just -- I 6 think of it as global share object, which is 7 the canonical representation of the URL, and 8 then just a share object, which would be an 9 individual share. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. So -- but -- I'm going to ask you 12 about both. 13 But is it unusual that they are 14 creating a -- you call it a user share 15 object -- but the share object that represents 16 that particular share of the URL attachment? 17 18 MR. RUDOLPH: Form. THE WITNESS: And you're -- you're Vague. 19 20 Objection. talking about in a private message? 21 BY MR. JESSEN: 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. I was very surprised by that. 24 Q. Why is that? 25 A. You know, just like if I'm sending a Page 253 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 -- if I'm posting something generally, it 2 doesn't surprise me if I'm sharing it publicly. 3 If I'm sending a private message, I think of 4 that much more like texting where Facebook is 5 just facilitating the delivery. 6 So I was very surprised at the fact 7 that they were creating metadata in a way 8 that's totally unnecessary for that message to 9 get delivered when I sent a private message. 10 11 Q. object to be metadata? 12 13 Would you consider the user share A. This is another gray area, but I'd say it definitely has metadata in it. 14 Q. What about the creation of the 15 global share object; was that surprising to 16 you? 17 A. The -- the actual creation of the 18 global share object, you know, which occurs 19 when I type in that URL the first time, not 20 actually on the send, that I didn't find 21 specifically surprising that there would be 22 a -- a canonical representation of a URL within 23 Facebook. 24 25 I was surprised at what was being tracked there in the tracking info from private Page 254 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 messages for largely the same reasons. 2 3 Q. What do you mean by that, what was being tracked there in the tracking into? 4 A. That the fact that I had shared a 5 URL with someone over a private message was 6 aggregated into public information, displayed 7 as Likes about that URL. 8 very surprising. 9 10 Q. I -- I found that That it was part of an aggregate -- aggregated information? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You're not saying that it was -- in 13 the global share object, someone could tell 14 that you had shared a particular URL in a 15 private message, are you? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. You're just saying the counter went 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then for a period of time when 18 up. 21 the Like button social plug-in included 22 messages -- message shares, that that went up 23 as well. 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Okay. So if I've got -- let me -Page 255 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 let me see if I understand. 2 You're not saying the creation of a 3 global share object is an interception, 4 correct? 5 6 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Calls for legal conclusion. 7 THE WITNESS: You know, when we -- 8 we talked about this before, I have this sort 9 of struggling with my understanding of -- of 10 the law and if you can have a legal 11 interception. 12 13 It's certainly not the interception that I'm talking about here. 14 15 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. 16 Understood. Are you saying, however, that the 17 creation of a user -- user share object 18 representing that particular share does 19 constitute an interception? 20 A. I am. 21 Q. Okay. Would your answer be the same 22 for a share object created from a URL 23 attachment in a public post? 24 25 A. I don't know. I would just have to think a lot more about all of the technical Page 256 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 things surrounding that. 2 different context. 3 4 Q. You understand that the technical aspects of it, though, are the same, right? 5 6 It's just such a MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Lacks foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: The technical aspects 8 of creating a user share object in a post for a 9 URL attachment? 10 BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yeah. 13 14 My understanding is that that's basically the same. Q. So you consider it to be an 15 interception in the context of private 16 messages, but you're not sure if it would be an 17 interception in the context of a post. 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And you don't -- why? 20 21 22 Why -- why are the reasons for the distinction? A. One is a direct message from one 23 person to another. 24 private. 25 It's intended to be We call them private messages. The other is a broadcast. And so, Page 257 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 you know, it gets, again, to the legal issues, 2 which, you know, I'm not an expert on. 3 Is it -- is it possible to have like 4 a wiretapped intercept of a broadcast post? 5 I -- I mean I haven't thought at all in depth 6 about what that would mean. 7 lots of questions about the legal issues 8 surrounding it. 9 Q. I probably have So I just don't know. Well, earlier I think you said that 10 you considered an interception to be a -- and 11 I'm not trying to misstate your testimony. 12 correct me if I get it wrong -- an interception 13 to be a collection of message content that was 14 not necessary to facilitate delivery of the 15 message. 16 A. I -- I think that's accurate. 17 Q. So So by that same -- is a -- is a 18 share object necessary to facilitate delivery 19 of a public post? 20 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 22 25 I haven't looked at depth of that issue. 23 24 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Do you understand that the -- that the -- in the context of private messages, as Page 258 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 well as public posts, that the share object is 2 necessary to render the URL attachment to the 3 recipient of the message? 4 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Vague. 5 THE WITNESS: That depends what you 6 mean by -- actually -- so you're saying that 7 the UR -- the user URL share object, you're 8 asking if that is necessary to render preview 9 rather than the global share object? 10 11 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. I'm not drawing necessarily a 12 distinction between those two at the moment. 13 But I mean I think we discussed earlier and 14 your report discusses this, that the -- the -- 15 the global share object is used to generate 16 that URL preview, which becomes an attachment 17 to the message and then is sent to a Facebook 18 server, at which point the user-specific share 19 object is created. 20 And so I'm really focused on that 21 user -- are you aware of the fact that a user 22 share object is necessary to render the 23 attachment to the recipient of the message? 24 25 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Lacks foundation. Page 259 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that's true. 3 BY MR. JESSEN: 4 Q. Why do you say that? 5 A. For so many reasons. So one is that 6 -- so that preview basically has three 7 elements, that attachment preview that comes 8 up. 9 Q. Uh-huh. 10 A. Let's say four. It has an image. 11 It has a title. It has a description. And it 12 has a link that you can click on it to go to 13 the Web site. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. There's lots of ways that that 16 preview can be rendered. 17 you look at the Facebook messaging code on the 18 desktop as it exists now, for example, if you 19 look at what gets sent to Facebook from the 20 browser -- like if I start typing a message, it 21 has an attachment, I click send, it actually 22 sends a JSON object, J-S-O-N, from my browser 23 to Facebook that has all of that data 24 explicitly encoded in it already. 25 Q. And, for example, if Uh-huh. Page 260 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. It's not just a reference to the 2 global share object, though I think that's in 3 there. 4 description and the link in the data that's 5 sent from my browser back to Facebook. It has the title and the photo and the 6 So Facebook receives that. If I'm 7 sending a message to you, they can deliver that 8 message to you. 9 attachment already and could simply display It has that JSON-encode 10 that information to you in the preview format, 11 which is actually how it's rendered in the 12 browser, requiring no intermediate interaction 13 with any objects between the sending and the 14 delivery. 15 Q. So -- okay. So you're saying -- 16 you're saying there are or ways that you could 17 do it. 18 But do you know if the way that the 19 system is actually built, the Facebook 20 messaging system, that the way that it's set up 21 is the share object -- the user share object is 22 created to render the preview to the recipient? 23 A. 24 works. 25 Q. That is not how I understand that it Why do you say that? Page 261 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So the rendering of the attachment 2 on the recipient side is -- so it's client-side 3 code running in the recipient's browser that 4 processes formatted data that Facebook sends 5 down to represent that attachment. 6 Those objects, necessary or not, are 7 never sent as, say, PHP objects to the client 8 side. There's just data about them that's 9 sent. So it's not necessary to have an object 10 for the client -- the recipient's client-side 11 system to render that preview, which is just a 12 little HTML object in the window. 13 Q. But what about storing it -- on the 14 other part of it is coming back and being able 15 to access the preview -- if you go back to your 16 inbox, say, after you've done it for -- you've 17 been away from it for a week or two, go back, 18 and you can look, do you have an understanding 19 as to the role of a share -- the user-specific 20 share object place in allowing a person to do 21 that? 22 23 24 25 A. Are you asking how is that used or is it necessary? Q. How is it used in the actual implementation of the Facebook messaging Page 262 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 system? 2 Like does the -- does the 3 user-specific share object allow that to 4 happen? 5 6 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. THE WITNESS: Yeah. Form. Vague. 7 I'm not sure 8 how much detail I have on that in here. 9 me just a quick second -- 10 Give BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Sure. 12 A. -- to flip it. 13 Yeah. So I don't think I have 14 anything in here that's looking at the 15 rendering for the recipient of that preview. 16 Is it the case that Facebook 17 references that user share object? 18 Potentially. 19 20 Q. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Meaning -- meaning you could -- that you could envision other implementations of it. 21 A. Many. 22 Q. Do you know if the user-specific 23 share object allows a Facebook user to go back 24 and into their messages folder and see the -- 25 see the URL attachment in the future? Page 263 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I -- so I have 4 nothing in the report about that. 5 top of my head, I don't remember look at the -- 6 looking at the messaging code for how the 7 message was received. 8 9 And off the I know that the rendering -- the actual rendering in the client side just uses 10 data that's sent. 11 object. 12 use that user share object for rendering on the 13 recipient side. 14 15 It doesn't require the But I'm unaware of how Facebook might BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Is it your position that the 16 creation of any kind of object in connection 17 with sending a message would constitute an 18 interception? 19 20 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: 25 Like an illegal interception? 23 24 Calls for legal conclusion. 21 22 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. I mean I -- that's what you're opining on in your report, I assume. Page 264 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 A. That -- that's fine. I just want to make sure we're not -- 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. -- talking past each other where 5 you're -- 6 Q. Right. 7 A. -- talking about something that I -- 8 Q. You talk about interceptions of 9 content in this. 10 And I'm wondering if the creation of 11 an object in connection with the transmission 12 of a message, any object, you would consider to 13 be an unlawful interception. 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Same objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I think that's 16 maybe just too hypothetical for me to answer as 17 you've asked it. 18 BY MR. JESSEN: 19 Q. Why is that? 20 A. You know, I'm trying to come up with 21 examples either way, which I'm just kind of 22 making up. 23 24 25 So I think it probably -- my answer to everything -Q. Well -Page 265 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. -- is always it depends. And I 2 think it probably does. 3 could be talked through an exhaustive and 4 convinced one way or the other. 5 that there's potentially a lot of variables to 6 consider. 7 Q. But I don't know. I But I think Well, let me give you an example. 8 So we produced in this case -- there are 9 objects that are created for each message 10 that's transmitted on the platform called ENT 11 messages. 12 13 Have you seen any of those? A. 14 15 16 17 I may have seen some of those. Were those for the -- the plaintiffs? Q. They were for, yeah, like 19 messages. 18 A. I did see those. 19 Q. Some subset of that. 20 Is it your position that the 21 creation of those messages would be an unlawful 22 interception? 23 24 25 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. THE WITNESS: You know, I didn't Page 266 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 analyze them from that perspective. 2 can't say right now. 3 Q. Okay. So I just What about -- we also 4 produced -- there are objects that may be 5 created when -- and they have -- there's a 6 thread in a message, thread objects. 7 8 Would those -- would the creation of those objects be unlawful interceptions? 9 10 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Again, I would 12 just -- I -- I haven't analyzed it from that 13 perspective. 14 jump to an answer now without taking the time 15 to give it some careful thought. 16 17 I wouldn't -- I wouldn't want to BY MR. JESSEN: Q. So what is it that -- what is it 18 that makes creating a -- an object from a URL 19 attachment -- what is it that -- that -- that 20 specifically makes that an unlawful 21 interception? 22 MR. RUDOLPH: 23 legal conclusion. 24 Objection. Calls for testimony. 25 Mischaracterizes prior THE WITNESS: So my feelings on why Page 267 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that's an issue and why that was a much clearer 2 issue is that creating that object is not 3 necessary to the delivery of the message. 4 know, is it necessary to create an object for 5 the message itself for a thread? 6 don't know. 7 depth. 8 either way to me. You You know, I I haven't thought through it in But it's not as obvious either -- 9 But creating an object for the URL 10 share is not necessarily -- not necessary for 11 delivery. 12 BY MR. JESSEN: 13 Q. Well, you -- 14 A. And that's why I've addressed that 15 issue here. 16 Q. You say in Paragraph 32 of your 17 report that objects represent things on 18 Facebook, right? 19 A. On 30 -- Paragraph 33, yes. 20 Q. I'm sorry. 21 33. I'm sorry. Paragraph Objects represent things on Facebook. 22 So the -- so a user share object 23 represents a share of a URL attachment by a 24 user, right? 25 A. That's right. Page 268 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. It's -- it's an -- some -- it's an object -- it's representing a thing, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 And that's unlawful because it's not necessary to deliver the message. 6 That is your opinion? 7 MR. RUDOLPH: 8 Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. So I've 10 addressed it here because I believe, in the 11 context of all the other facts, that -- that 12 that becomes the issue. 13 That's right. BY MR. JESSEN: 14 Q. What other facts? 15 A. That there's a device that -- the 16 code that does the intercepting and that it 17 happens in transit. 18 Q. Well, by your definition of 19 "device," wouldn't any object be created by a 20 device? 21 22 23 Because you -- you've testified that a device is lines of code. So by definition, wouldn't any 24 object associated with a message be intercepted 25 by a device? Page 269 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. That could be true. 2 Q. And according to you, if that 3 happens before the message has been delivered, 4 then that's in transit, right? 5 6 7 A. From how I've analyzed the way that these messages are processed, yes. Q. So any use of source code to 8 generate a mess- -- to generate an object while 9 a message -- before a message reaches a point 10 of persistent storage, in your view, that's 11 illegal. 12 13 MR. RUDOLPH: legal conclusion. 14 Objection. Calls for Misstates prior testimony. THE WITNESS: That object would have 15 to be unnecessary to the delivery of the 16 message. 17 18 19 20 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. If it's unnecessary for the delivery of the message, it's unlawful. A. And all -- 21 MR. RUDOLPH: Object -- 22 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 23 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 24 25 Calls for legal conclusion. THE WITNESS: And all the other Page 270 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 things. 2 3 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Right. Which is what -- which -- 4 which is what I was mentioning in my earlier 5 question. 6 A. 7 Right. MR. JESSEN: Let me -- okay. I 8 think we've been going maybe -- actually, maybe 9 less than an hour. I'm not sure. 10 Are we getting close. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 12 minutes left. 13 14 We have about 12 MR. JESSEN: Let's go to the end of this tape. 15 BY MR. JESSEN: 16 Q. Are you okay with that? 17 A. Yes. 18 I just want -- I -- I maybe want to 19 add here, on these questions about what I 20 believe is unlawful or not -- 21 Q. Right. 22 A. This is based on my understanding of 23 the law as it's been explained to me. But I 24 just want to be clear that I'm not trying to 25 offer opinions on the law here, just offer Page 271 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 opinions on what Facebook does and does not do. Q. Okay. So if your -- if the law that 3 has been explained to you was inaccurate, then 4 some of your conclusions might be inaccurate as 5 well; is that fair to say? 6 A. I think maybe the opposite, that I'm 7 -- I don't know if, you know opposite. That -- 8 that I'm making conclusions like Facebook 9 creates this thing. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. Or reads this or stores this here. 12 And the law could mean something else, but I 13 still think Facebook does that thing. 14 Q. To your -- you think -- I mean tell 15 me if I'm wrong, but your -- you can give -- as 16 a computer scientist, you can give an opinion 17 on the operation of something, source code, 18 servers, something along those lines; but you 19 can't really give an opinion on whether or not 20 that conduct would -- would fall within the -- 21 fall underneath these two statutes, the Wire 22 Tap Act and the California Invasion of Privacy 23 Act; is that accurate? 24 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 25 THE WITNESS: I -- I think that's Form. Page 272 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 right. 2 asked to opine on. 3 So there were particular issues I was BY MR. JESSEN: 4 Q. Right. 5 A. The law was explained on why those 6 were important. 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. You know, and I certainly considered 9 10 my understanding of the law as I looked at this. 11 But I'm not trying to offer an 12 opinion on did Facebook do an illegal thing or 13 not. 14 which I'm told would be illegal, but basically 15 did they do X, Y and Z. I'm trying to say did they do X, Y and Z, 16 So if -- if the law -- if my 17 understanding of the law were wrong, so say it 18 actually -- like you're allowed to intercept 19 stuff in transit, you know, I'm still saying 20 that Facebook intercepts it in transit. 21 that doesn't matter. 22 Q. Maybe Well, you -- the only reason I'm 23 kind of getting into this is because you give 24 opinions sort of -- that talk about, you know, 25 Facebook's intercepting content while it's in Page 273 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 transmission using devices. 2 And so that's sort of -- it seems 3 like you are giving a -- giving an opinion with 4 -- at least within a legal frame work. 5 But I mean would you sort of -- can 6 you really -- can you really give an opinion on 7 whether or not something constitutes an 8 interception? 9 there are these objects that are created from 10 URL attachments and leave it at that? 11 12 Like are you qualified to say, "And that's an interception, in my opinion"? 13 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Asked and answered. 15 16 Or instead can you just say Objection. Form. Compound. THE WITNESS: Yes. I understand what you're asking. 17 So I think I'm -- I'm operating on 18 my understanding of what an interception is. 19 BY MR. JESSEN: 20 Q. Right. 21 A. So if it were the case that I 22 misunderstood or was wrongly informed what an 23 interception was, then potentially those 24 conclusions could be wrong. 25 But I'm -- yeah. I'm not trying to Page 274 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 offer an opinion on -- on the law and just much 2 more an opinion on here's what I observe being 3 done in the system and let you guys all sort 4 out what's legal and what isn't. 5 Q. Okay. You're familiar with the 6 article -- excuse me -- in the Wall Street 7 Journal "How Private Are Your Private 8 Messages?" by Jennifer Valentino-DeVries and 9 Ashkan Soltani dated October 3rd, 2012? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When's the first time you became 12 13 aware of that article? A. I believe it's sometime after I 14 started working on this case. 15 having read it before. 16 17 Q. MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. THE WITNESS: Like where in the Vague. 20 21 When exactly does the -- when is user-specific share object created? 18 19 Okay. I don't remember process? 22 BY MR. JESSEN: 23 Q. Well, sure. 24 A. I think I have -- well, let me -- 25 Let's start with that. let me try the easy answer first, and then -Page 275 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. -- we'll see. 3 Q. Sure. 4 A. It's created relatively early in the 5 processing between when I hit send and when the 6 message is delivered to the recipient. 7 Q. What does it mean -- what do you -- 8 does the entire delivery process take -- how 9 long does it take? 10 A. Less than a second. 11 Q. So what does it mean to say its 12 created relatively early in a process that 13 takes less than a second? 14 A. Well, there's a bunch of steps. 15 Q. Right. 16 A. And it's one of -- 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. -- the earlier steps in that 19 process. 20 21 MR. JESSEN: tape now. 22 23 I think we can end this I need a short break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 4:09. 24 This is the end of Media Unit No. 3. 25 (A short recess was taken.) Page 276 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 4:44. 3 4 On the record at This is the beginning of Media Unit 4 in the deposition of Dr. Jennifer Golbeck. 5 BY MR. JESSEN: 6 Q. Welcome back, Dr. Golbeck. 7 On Paragraph 38 of your report, if 8 you could direct your attention to that, you 9 say: "The ENT global share also contains a 10 number of tracking information fields, 11 including share count, post count, Like count, 12 comment count and click count. 13 each represent the number of times Facebook 14 users have engaged in the specific action 15 related to the URL at issue." 16 These counts Did I read that correctly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And do you have an understanding of 19 which of the counts reflects URL attachments 20 shared in messages? 21 A. I believe that's share count. 22 Q. Okay. In 39 you go on to say: 23 "When the user sends a private message 24 containing a URL, whether it is new to Facebook 25 or not, the share count field of the ENT global Page 277 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 share is incremented. 2 count that" -- "the count that indicates how 3 many times the URL has been shared goes up by 4 one." 5 In other words, the See that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you saying that that always 8 happened whenever a user sends a URL in a 9 message, that the share_count field is 10 11 12 13 incremented? A. If there's the URL attachment to that message, I believe that's correct. Q. Are you aware of any circumstances 14 where, even if there is a URL attachment, the 15 count in the -- in the share_count field would 16 not increase? 17 18 19 20 A. If the code works like it's supposed to, it should always go up. Q. What about -- are you familiar with race conditions? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And do you have an understanding 23 that race conditions in this context could 24 prevent the count from going up for any given 25 URL share in a message? Page 278 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 A. Yes. I would count that as a type of error. Q. Okay. And database failures could also cause that? 5 A. Absolutely. 6 Q. Okay. Are you saying that 7 incrementing the share count field in the 8 global share -- I'm sorry -- the share count 9 value in the tracking info field of the global 10 share object, is that part of the intercepting 11 that you're claiming? 12 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Form. I believe 14 that's part of what I'm saying, is that part of 15 the interception. 16 17 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. If that -- if the field in that -- 18 or if the counter in that field in the global 19 share object was not incremented, would that 20 mean that there was no -- would that mean that 21 there was not an interception? 22 A. There are other ways that that -- 23 that data from those URL attachments is 24 intercepted aside from this count. 25 Q. For -- involving global -- involving Page 279 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 share objects or... A. In -- do you mean involving the ENT global share? Q. Yeah. Or a -- or a user-specific 5 global share -- I'm sorry -- user-specific 6 share object. 7 A. So if this value were not 8 incremented by one, and the other types of 9 interceptions still happened, then there would 10 11 12 13 still be an interception. Q. What are the other types of interceptions you're referring to? A. There's the creation of user URL 14 share object. 15 which I get to in the next section. 16 Q. Okay. There's also a log of the share, So -- so incrementing -- 17 incrementing -- I'm trying to figure out what 18 is the interception. 19 Sounds like you're saying, if a 20 share object is created, that's -- if a 21 user-specific share object is created, that's 22 an interception, regardless of whether the 23 tracking info field is incremented; is that 24 correct? 25 A. I believe that's correct, yes. Page 280 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. So you don't actually 2 consider the tracking info field, whether it's 3 incremented or not, to be part of the 4 interception, right? 5 A. That's not what I said. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. There are several interceptions that 8 9 So it is part of it. take place. Q. Uh-huh. And these are all things -- 10 in your opinion, the several interceptions are 11 electronic processes taken place -- taking 12 place that aren't necessary to deliver the 13 message? 14 15 16 17 18 19 That's what makes them interceptions? A. Are we going back to my legal understanding? Q. Whatever you're opining on in this case. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. And I think you're giving -- you 22 seem to be -- you talk about interceptions, 23 so... 24 25 A. Yes. So there are three or four, depending how you count ways -Page 281 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Uh-huh. 2 A. -- that messages are intercepted by 3 Facebook where the contents of the message are 4 redirected to code that's not necessary for the 5 delivery of the message. 6 Q. 7 Right. So any -- any -- any processing of a 8 message that is not necessary to deliver it you 9 would consider to be an interception. 10 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I'd have to see 12 specific examples. 13 14 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. I'm just trying to figure out where 15 you're drawing the line, because it seems kind 16 of like an arbitrary line. 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Q. Okay. So -- all right. So the creation of the share object, you consider that to be an interception. Incrementing the share count value 23 in the tracking info field in the global share 24 object, you consider that -- is that a separate 25 interception? Page 282 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Another type of interception. I'm going to get to the logging. 4 But are those the only two 5 interceptions that involve share objects, 6 either user-specific or global share objects? 7 8 9 A. I -- I believe that's correct. They're the only two that I've listed in here. Q. And I think we went over this 10 earlier, but you don't have a way -- if I gave 11 you a global share object for a particular URL, 12 and you looked at the tracking info field, and 13 you looked at the share count portion of that 14 field, and let's say it was a number that said 15 7,563, there's no way for you to tell me to 16 take that number and work backwards and figure 17 out which Facebook users shared that URL 18 attachment in a private message, correct? 19 20 21 A. If all you're giving me is that in global share with that number, that's correct. Q. Okay. Is there other information, 22 if I gave you, that would allow you to figure 23 that out? 24 25 A. The user-specific URL's share objects have information that indicates that Page 283 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 they are shares from private messages. 2 if I had access to that data and the URL, I 3 could trace it back. 4 5 Q. And so If you had -- if you had access to the user specific share objects. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. But you still wouldn't be able to 8 tell -- even if there was a user-specific share 9 object that was connected to the global share 10 object, you still wouldn't be able to tell if 11 that particular user-specific share object 12 incremented the tracking info field, right? 13 A. I don't think that's correct. 14 Q. Okay. 15 Well, I thought that's what you said earlier. 16 Where -- where am I going wrong? 17 A. So if a user URL share object is 18 created -- 19 Q. Right. 20 A. It means that a user has sent a URL 21 attachment to their Facebook message. And 22 short of errors in the code, that will always 23 increment the share count field in the ENT 24 global share object in addition to creating the 25 user URL share object. Page 284 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. are there not, from time to time? 3 4 But there are errors in the code, A. There could be errors in the code from time to time. 5 Q. And so you couldn't tell me -- you 6 could make a guess, but you couldn't tell me 7 with reasonable certainty that yes, this 8 particular URL share -- URL share did increment 9 that counter, correct? 10 A. I think that's unfair. I think I 11 would have a high degree of certainty that the 12 counter was incremented. 13 Facebook code, I think it's quite rare that you 14 get database failures that prevent these sorts 15 of things from being recorded. 16 17 Q. 20 Are you aware of the testimony of Mr. He that this counter was not very accurate? 18 19 Having looked at the A. I don't recall that testimony. I'm Q. Are you aware of his testimony that -- 21 there -- at different times, due to database -- 22 database failures and other related issues, the 23 information was lost, particular shares? 24 A. I do recall that, yes. 25 Q. Okay. So -Page 285 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I still think -- 2 Q. -- you can't -- 3 A. -- I'd be making a reasonable 4 estimate. 5 Q. 6 right? 7 A. 8 9 You'd be making an estimate, though, Yes. There could be -- it could be some digits off based on system errors. Q. And it could be -- okay. Well, we 10 don't have to get into the other aspects. 11 Given the time, we won't. 12 So earlier we were talking about -- 13 you were talking about that the user specific 14 share object is created early in the 15 transmission process. 16 Recall that testimony? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. And is that user-specific share 19 object created when the message has reached a 20 Facebook server and is in temporary storage? 21 22 A. It has reached a Facebook server and is not in temporary storage. 23 Q. Why not? 24 A. I -- I don't know how to answer that 25 question. Page 286 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Is it in memory? 2 A. It is stored in memory. 3 Q. What's the difference between memory 4 5 and temporary storage? A. Storage is -- so memory allows you 6 to operate on some data if it's in memory. 7 Storage, temporary or permanent, is a place 8 where information is stored that it can't be 9 operated on. 10 11 12 Q. What do you mean "operate on"? By whom? A. You can use it in code, do some 13 operations with that data. 14 out of storage to be processed. 15 Q. It has to be taken So if a message or -- if a message 16 or a URL attachment is in temporary storage, it 17 can't be operated on? 18 A. I think that's correct. 19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the 20 Facebook Messages product uses a so-called 21 store-and-forward model? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. That the message is stored at 25 What does that mean to you? different steps along the way and then Page 287 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 forwarded on to following steps. Q. What are the various places where it's stored along the way? A. Having looked at the Facebook code, 5 I don't see it very much stored along the way. 6 I see generally the sent messages received, 7 it's put through a series of steps that I 8 looked at, and it's delivered. 9 There may be additional steps in the 10 final delivery that I haven't looked at because 11 the interceptions that I've talked about here 12 take place early in the process. 13 14 Q. Facebook messaging product than Michael Adkins? 15 16 Would you have more expertise on the MR. RUDOLPH: Vague. Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 17 THE WITNESS: 18 MR. JESSEN: 19 Form. So -I didn't think that would be a hard question to answer. 20 BY MR. JESSEN: 21 Q. Go ahead. 22 A. So I don't think so. My hesitation 23 is that, in some of the 30(b)(6) depositions, 24 we've heard Facebook employees say they don't 25 really know how specific parts of a system Page 288 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 works, even though they worked on it. 2 don't remember if he's one of those. 3 Q. 4 And I So I just want to understand. Your testimony is that, when share 5 objects are created, they're not in -- they're 6 not in electronic storage? 7 testimony? 8 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Is that your Objection. Form. Asked and answered. 10 THE WITNESS: We're talking about 11 the message being in storage, not the objects 12 being in storage? 13 14 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, when the -- you're saying that 15 the URL -- the U -- the creation of the share 16 object is an interception. 17 18 A. Yes. And The message is not in storage at the point that that's created. 19 Q. Is the URL attachment in storage? 20 A. It is not. 21 Q. It's not in any kind of storage? 22 Temporary? Not in any kind of temporary 23 storage? 24 25 A. I think that's right. So there's a -- there's potentially a separate object with Page 289 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that data that's stored. 2 message and the attachment, no. 3 memory. 4 5 6 Q. But the actual They're in Isn't memory a -- a way to temporarily store things? A. I think in the context we were 7 talking about message delivery here, and when 8 we're talking about processing, no. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 But it is on a Facebook server. All this stuff's on a Facebook server, right? A. All -- yeah. All this code's executing on a Facebook server, yes. Q. In Paragraph 43, you talk about 15 logging of private message content. 16 "Once Facebook intercepts the URL content of a 17 user's private messages in the form of user URL 18 share objects and ENT shares, it logs that 19 content in numerous ways, including" it's -- 20 "in various tables." 21 You say: Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Are you saying that the logging 24 occurs after the message has already been 25 intercepted? Page 290 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. That the -- the user URL share 2 object is created, and that is one of the 3 interceptions. 4 I believe it's the case that, in the process of 5 creating that, this logging occurs. 6 Q. Just thinking back to the code, So is it part of -- would you 7 consider that -- the logging to be part of the 8 interception? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is logging? 11 12 13 14 We talked about this a bit earlier, but refresh my memory. A. It's essentially recording -- gen- -- generally recording something that happened. Q. Okay. Is it unusual? 15 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Logging this kind of 17 thing or logging -- having logs in general? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Vague. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Well, in -- first let's start in general. A. In general, no. Things like accesses to Web pages are logged all the time. Q. Okay. Is the kind of logging that you're talking about here unusual? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Page 291 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 THE WITNESS: I think this is. I was surprised that this was happening. 3 BY MR. JESSEN: 4 Q. Why do you say that? 5 A. Why was I surprised that it was 6 happening? 7 Q. 8 9 Yeah. And why -- and why do you think it's unusual? A. I -- I think it's unusual for 10 companies to look at -- you know, companies, 11 but certainly other places, to look at the 12 contents of messages and create records of the 13 activities of those contents that are outside 14 the scope of what's necessary to deliver the 15 message. 16 Q. I find that unusual. What sources did you consult to 17 understand whether and how Facebook logs URL 18 data from private messages? 19 A. So I certainly looked at the code. 20 I -- looking at Paragraph 46 in here, I cite 21 some testimony from Xin Liu and from Ray He. 22 believe I also cite some Facebook documents 23 about the logging issue, both for 24 and for Nectar. 25 Q. I think when you said testimony by Page 292 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 I HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Xin Liu, you're referring perhaps to an e-mail 2 from 2010. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. In Paragraph 45, you -- first of 5 all, what are -- I'm sorry. You're right. what's -- what -- what is 6 7 A. So we call it just for 8 short. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. It's a table that has a record of Fair enough. 11 the user ID, the fact that they have shared a 12 URL, the time that they've done it, I believe 13 it points to the global ENT share. 14 an indicator that that action was taken in a 15 private message or not. 16 Q. And there's You do discuss some of these things 17 in Paragraph 45. 18 table records the user ID, an action that user 19 has taken like a share or a Like, the time of 20 that action, and points pointers to data 21 structures that have more information about the 22 URL, in this case sent through a private 23 message." 24 25 You say: "The You don't actually cite anything in support of that. Page 293 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 , you're referring perhaps to an e-mail 2 from 2010. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. In Paragraph 45, you -- first of 5 all, what are -- I'm sorry. You're right. what's -- what -- what is 6 7 A. So we call it just for 8 short. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. It's a table that has a record of Fair enough. 11 the user ID, the fact that they have shared a 12 URL, the time that they've done it, I believe 13 it points to the global ENT share. 14 an indicator that that action was taken in a 15 private message or not. 16 Q. And there's You do discuss some of these things 17 in Paragraph 45. 18 table records the user ID, an action that user 19 has taken like a share or a Like, the time of 20 that action, and points pointers to data 21 structures that have more information about the 22 URL, in this case sent through a private 23 message." 24 25 You say: "The You don't actually cite anything in support of that. Page 293 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 What are you basing that statement on? A. That actually is in the 4 file, which I do cite at least 5 in Paragraph 49. 6 of the fields in 7 That has a full description I believe I cite it somewhere else 8 in the report that I'd be happy to look through 9 if you want me to find it. 10 11 MR. JESSEN: document. 12 13 16 This will be Exhibit 4. (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for identification.) 14 15 Let me mark another BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Okay. So I've handed you several printout -- source code printouts. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. And I believe the -- you 19 referenced -- well, Paragraph 49 of your 20 report, I think. 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And so -- and then you have a 23 footnote to paragraph -- I'm sorry -- footnote 24 to 28 referencing Page 14183. 25 Is this what you're sort of relying Page 294 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 upon? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And which parts specifically are you 4 relying on for your -- the first sentence in 5 Paragraph 45? 6 A. So in Paragraph 45 I list that this 7 looks at a record of the user ID, I believe 8 that's on line 16; the action the user has 9 taken, which is line 15, the time of the action 10 on line 13; the pointer to data structures, 11 which I believe is on both 17 and 18; and then 12 is posted on line 20 is an indicator of whether 13 it was publicly posted or not, which would 14 indicate its in a private message. 15 16 17 Q. Based on your analysis of the code, when did this logging in A. start? I don't know that I actually saw 18 when it started. 19 It certainly started before the class period. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. 2010 there were issues with the 22 23 24 25 table that were corrected. Q. Do you know if the logging and share stats continue past December 2012? A. I believe it did, but I don't have Page 295 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 access to the code after that point. 2 Q. Why do you believe it did? 3 A. All of the code up until that point 4 that operates with the 5 operated up till that point in the same way. 6 So it could be that, on January 1st, 2013, all 7 of the code was changed. 8 unlikely to me. 9 10 Q. table That seems highly You said there was a -- a fix in 2010? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. What was that? 13 A. They weren't properly marking that 14 messages were -- that these shares were taking 15 place in private messages. 16 URL share data was being exposed publicly, and 17 there were a few attempts to update what was in 18 the table to hide the fact that those private 19 message shares were being recorded. So private message 20 Q. What do you mean "hide"? 21 A. Well, they -- I mean one fix for the 22 fact that private messages were being logged 23 and exposed would be to stop logging private 24 messages, which isn't what they did. 25 put in a flag to say hide these pieces of data They just Page 296 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 from people who are publicly looking. Q. 3 4 MR. RUDOLPH: speculation. 5 6 Why did they do that? Objection. Calls for Lacks foundation. THE WITNESS: Why did they make the change? 7 BY MR. JESSEN: 8 Q. Correct. 9 A. So there's a few places that I cite 10 in here. 11 Just give me one second. Yeah. So I think the main fix for 12 excluding this -- I don't recall, and I don't 13 see it listed here, what their motivation was 14 for making that change. 15 Q. But are you -- are you -- is it 16 possible that -- I mean you said that they 17 were -- private messages were being exposed. 18 Do you -- do you think they didn't 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 want those private messages exposed? Could that -- could that have been the motivation to make the change? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I -- from all of the documents that I've looked at, Facebook is Page 297 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 concerned about people being concerned about 2 their privacy but not necessarily concerned 3 about stopping the things that people are upset 4 about. 5 from seeing that. 6 They are concerned with stopping people So it could be the case that they 7 were concerned about privacy. 8 the case that they were concerned that people 9 would be upset about it. 10 BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Or it could be Is there a distinction between a 12 social network logging information and keeping 13 records internally and exposing that 14 information to the entire world? 15 16 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Vague. 17 THE WITNESS: 18 Yes. BY MR. JESSEN: 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. One is kept internally, and one's 21 22 23 What's the distinction? exposed to the world. Q. It sounds like, in your mind, they're both equally bad. 24 A. I think they're both bad. 25 Q. Equally bad? Page 298 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. They're -- 2 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. 3 THE WITNESS: They're both privacy 4 violating. 5 but I think it's privacy violating either way. 6 7 8 9 I think it's worse to expose it, BY MR. JESSEN: Q. What do you mean by "privacy violating"? A. I mean if the post office started 10 opening my mail, scanning it and posting it 11 online, I'd be really upset. 12 that was to stop posting it online but to keep 13 opening it and scanning it and reading it, that 14 would still be an invasion of my privacy. 15 Q. If their fixed to You think it's an invasion of 16 privacy for Facebook to keep track of 17 aggregated data regarding the kind of URLs that 18 are shared on its Web site? 19 A. Sent in private messages or sent 20 generally? 21 Q. Both. 22 A. I think it is a violation of privacy 23 to scan the contents of private messages even 24 to create aggregated data. 25 Q. Why is that? Page 299 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Because they're private. 2 Q. Then how is that an invasion of a -- 3 of privacy if it's aggregated data, 4 nonpersonally identifiable? 5 A. So I don't know how philosophical 6 you want to get on this. 7 established in the psychological community, is 8 the ability for one person to control what they 9 disclose to whom and when. 10 But privacy, well So it's not simply that sharing 11 information violates privacy. 12 made a choice to share it; and in the case 13 where I'm sending a private message, that 14 message is intended for the person that I'm 15 sending it to. 16 with Facebook, the contents of that message, 17 then Facebook going in there without my consent 18 or understanding violates my privacy in that I 19 have not made a conscience choice to share that 20 data with Facebook at that time. 21 22 23 24 25 Q. It's that I've If I don't intend to share that Is -- is Facebook, in your view, scanning every message that contains a URL? A. Every -- well, what do you mean by "scanning"? Q. You -- that was your -- you used the Page 300 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 word. 2 A. At what point in the process? 3 Q. Any point. 4 A. So -- 5 Q. From the time the message is -- from 6 the time the message is -- you press send until 7 delivery. 8 9 A. If that message has a URO attachment, I believe -- 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- they're, short of code errors, 12 13 looking at all of them, yes. Q. And if -- they're not looking at it 14 if it's just got -- if it doesn't have an 15 attachment. 16 A. 17 18 MR. RUDOLPH: THE WITNESS: 23 24 25 Form. I haven't looked at all of that yet in the code. 21 22 Objection. Vague. 19 20 I haven't -- BY MR. JESSEN: Q. But you don't know that they're doing that now. I mean you don't have and opinion that they're scanning messages that just Page 301 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 contain a URL and don't have a URL attachment, 2 right? 3 A. 4 Right. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 10 I don't offer any opinions on here. But you -- and you don't have any reason to think they are doing that, do you? A. I -- I just don't know. I haven't looked. Q. Do you have a reason to think they're doing it? 11 A. I have no reason either way. 12 Q. Okay. So for some reason they're 13 just looking at the ones that have the 14 attachments. 15 16 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Argumentative. 17 THE WITNESS: 18 Is that a question? BY MR. JESSEN: 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. What -- 21 Q. That -- 22 A. What are you asking? 23 Q. That's what they're doing. 24 25 Your view is they're just scanning the ones -- they're scanning the ones that have Page 302 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 4 5 attachments. A. They are scanning the ones that have attachments. Q. Because of the -- because the preview was created. 6 Coincidently, those just happen to 7 be the ones they're scanning if there's a 8 preview; is that -- that's your testimony. 9 10 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Misstates prior testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: Form. Argumentative. I'm not sure I totally 12 understand the question. 13 attachments of messages with URLs that have the 14 preview attachment. 15 They are scanning the BY MR. JESSEN: 16 Q. But not the others. 17 A. I don't know if they're doing the 18 19 others. Q. Okay. Well, why -- why -- why are 20 they doing one and not the other, in your 21 opinion? 22 23 24 25 MR. RUDOLPH: Lacks foundation. Objection. Form. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: So I don't know that they're not doing the other. Page 303 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. But you don't have any information that they are. 4 A. I haven't looked either way, right? 5 There's -- 6 Q. You haven't looked? 7 A. I have not -- that's right. I have 8 not looked in the code about scanning of the 9 message content itself yet. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. So I don't know if that answers your 12 13 question. Q. 14 15 Let's move on to your discussion of Nectar. 16 17 18 19 Right. What is Nectar? A. Nectar is another platform for logging on Facebook. Q. And what do you base -- what's 20 your -- what's your understanding of Nectar 21 based upon? 22 A. I've seen it used in the code. And 23 then also, as you can see here in this section 24 starting at Paragraph 52, there are a number of 25 references to Nectar in Facebook documents Page 304 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that -- that describes things being logged 2 there. 3 Q. What gets logged in Nectar? 4 A. Just give me one second to review -- 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. -- what I have here. 7 So if you look in Paragraph 52, this 8 Facebook document that I've cited says that in 9 Nectar they are logging relevant actions that 10 create relationships or show clickable links, 11 including things from the inbox. 12 That same document that goes on to 13 say: 14 Nectar platform and Nectar content action." 15 And then I'm referring to code in 16 "The places that we log the data are in Paragraph 54. 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. I've quickly flipped through here -- 19 20 I could look deeper if you want -- to this e e r that 21 refers to Nectar and the way that they're 22 logging details there. 23 Q. So is it safe -- I mean the e-mail 24 you cited from July 2010, is it -- is it -- is 25 it -- can you say, to a reasonable degree of Page 305 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 computer scientific certainty, that what's 2 described in an e-mail is how the system is 3 operating? 4 A. Like do I think the Facebook 5 engineers are lying to each other about what 6 they're recording where? 7 Q. No. 8 Can you -- can you read an e-mail -- 9 rand an unfortunately we don't have time to -- 10 to do it. 11 But can you -- can you look at an 12 e-mail and discern from an e-mail that discuss 13 many different types of data and many different 14 types of information what's going on in the 15 code? 16 A. Ah -- 17 Q. And in -- in -- in -- go ahead. 18 A. So I think you can draw a lot of 19 conclusions from things that engineers discuss 20 in e-mail. 21 No. 22 events in Nectar. 23 Could I reproduce the code from it? But I do cite to code here also that logs Q. You say that, when a URL -- in 24 Paragraph 54: "When a URL is scraped or" 25 prescraped -- "or a prescraped URL is accessed, Page 306 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Facebook logs the event in Nectar." 2 3 What -- what do you mean by "scraped" or "a prescraped URL is accessed"? 4 A. I believe that's referring to an 5 access to an ENT global share object. 6 want to look at that code to make sure if you 7 want me to go in -- in depth to that. 8 9 Q. But I'd When a global share object is accessed by what? 10 A. I believe the share scraper code. 11 Q. So before the message is sent? 12 A. I believe that's right. 13 Q. Is it possible that the logging in 14 Nectar was only being done on a sample -- 15 sample basis? 16 A. It seems unlikely, given how I've 17 seen it used in the code, but I suppose it 18 could be possible. 19 20 Q. cut through some of this. 21 22 I'm just -- and again, I'm trying to But there's a reference in the code to a . 23 A. Where is -- 24 Q. And -- 25 A. -- that in the code. Page 307 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Q. It's -- so if you go to the Bates No. FB 14195 in Exhibit 4. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. And -- yeah. 5 column, So on the left-hand , it references a . 6 A. It does. 7 Q. So does that affect your conclusion 8 at all or... 9 A. That line does not, no. 10 Q. Why not? 11 A. So that's pulling something called a 12 share scrape log rate. 13 the sampling were being done here, you would 14 see that sampling rate actually used to adjust 15 whether or not a function was called. 16 doesn't happen. 17 But it actually -- if And that It's just a variable that's passed 18 in to the creation of the event variable. 19 There's nothing in this line that says how 20 that's used -- nothing in this function. 21 Q. 22 in Nectar? 23 A. Other besides what? 24 Q. Scraped or prescraped URLs being 25 What other kinds of data are logged accessed. Page 308 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So again, going back to Paragraph 52 2 and 53, in reference to that e-mail, they talk 3 about logging actions that create relationships 4 or show clickable links. 5 6 Q. And so your testimony is that that information is also contained in Nectar? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you seen that in the code? 9 A. I don't recall if I have or not. 10 I've looked at a lot -- 11 Q. Because what -- 12 A. -- of code. 13 Q. -- you're citing here is an e-mail 14 from July of 2010. 15 And can you tell me, to a reasonable 16 degree of computer science certainty, that this 17 information discussed in that e-mail in 18 Paragraph 52 is reflected in the Nectar log -- 19 or in -- excuse me -- in Nectar? 20 A. I think it's reasonable to draw a 21 conclusion from an e-mail between Facebook 22 engineers that say, "We're doing X," that they 23 were, in fact, doing X. 24 25 Q. The e-mail doesn't exactly say what you're saying it says, which is the issue. Page 309 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 MR. RUDOLPH: 2 BY MR. JESSEN: 3 Q. 4 Hold -- But -- but that wasn't my question. The question was can you tell me, 5 based upon a reasonable degree of computer 6 science certainty, that that information is 7 reflected in Nectar? 8 9 MR. RUDOLPH: Argumentative. 10 Objection. Form. Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: I -- I think my 11 answer's the same. 12 conclude from an -- an e-mail between Facebook 13 engineers that what they say is happening is 14 happening. 15 16 17 I think it's reasonable to BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Assuming you -- assuming you've interpreted the e-mail correctly, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about 20 the various uses of what you refer to as 21 intercepted private message data. 22 Is it fair to say that all the uses 23 you are discussing involve the use of 24 aggregated nonpersonally identifiable 25 information? Page 310 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: So I think, when we -- 3 Form. we briefly touched on this before -- 4 BY MR. JESSEN: 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. -- that the activity feed presents 7 an edge case where there could be personally 8 identifiable information exposed. 9 The other cases all use aggregated 10 data that reasonably seems to be not personally 11 identifiable. 12 Q. When you referred earlier -- I think 13 you said that some private message content had 14 been -- I don't want to misquote you, but It 15 think you said exposed? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was that a reference to the activity 18 plug-in or something -- 19 A. The activity -- 20 Q. -- else? 21 A. -- feed plug-in, yes. 22 It was a reference -- 23 Q. And -- 24 A. -- to that. 25 Q. And what were you referring to there Page 311 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 specifically? A. There's an issue where -- that 3 popped up that I really didn't -- with an ex- 4 -- an exter- -- a person external to Facebook 5 identified that, if I sent you a private 6 message with a URL in it, that the URL that I 7 sent to you could appear in the activity feed 8 of my friends as a URL they might want to check 9 out; which, if it's something like New York 10 Times, is not personally identifiable; if it's 11 a link to the draft version of my personal Web 12 site or, you know, pictures of me that I don't 13 want exposed to the public, suddenly that 14 becomes visible and is potentially identifiable 15 with me. 16 17 Q. And so when that was happening, wouldn't -- I mean tell me if I'm wrong. 18 But is your understanding that it 19 wouldn't say "Jen Golbeck," you know, "shared 20 this link." 21 recommend that link or the -- it would say 22 "Someone shared this" in the activity feed. 23 It would just -- that -- it would I mean is that your understanding? 24 A. 25 I believe the latter is correct. Right. Page 312 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. But you're saying, depending 2 on the URL, a URL could -- some URLs could be 3 personally identifiable depending on sort of 4 what it is. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Is it your understanding that that 7 was a -- that was a bug back in the 2010, 2011 8 time period? 9 A. You know, I don't know if I'd call 10 it a bug. 11 consequence of how it was implemented. 12 13 Q. But it could be an un- -- unintended And do you have an understanding that Facebook ultimately resolved that issue? 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. 15 THE WITNESS: I do, yes. My 16 understanding is that they changed that. 17 BY MR. JESSEN: 18 Q. You don't think that that was 19 intentional functionality on their part, do 20 you? 21 22 23 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I don't think that 24 they set out with the intention of saying, "We 25 will take private message shares that could be Page 313 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 sensitive and show them to other people." 2 3 I think they probably didn't care, and that's why it happened. 4 BY MR. JESSEN: 5 Q. Why do you think they didn't care? 6 A. This would be a really simple thing 7 to prevent from happening if that kind of 8 privacy concern were at the forefront in your 9 development. 10 11 Q. Would the -- do you know what year this issue... 12 A. I believe 2010. 13 Q. Okay. 14 15 16 And do you know when they -- when they fixed that? A. 2011. So actually, I think 2011 is the only year I know. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Yeah. I'm not... 19 20 21 I'm not sure if 2010 was when the activity feed was introduced. Q. Okay. And that was before the class period started in this case, right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Okay. 24 25 You talk a little bit about recommendations. What's your understanding of Page 314 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 recommendations -- the recommendations widget? 2 A. What about it? 3 Q. Like what was it? 4 5 6 7 8 9 What was the recommendations functionality? A. It recommended links to people that Facebook thought they might be interested in. Q. And were those recommendations made on Facebook.com or on that particular Web site? A. I believe they were external. It 10 was a third-party plug-in for use on other Web 11 sites. 12 Q. And what's your understanding of 13 how -- how certain URLs were recommended on 14 those Web sites? 15 A. That there was a Facebook plug-in 16 widget that would display those recommended 17 links. 18 window and would display those recommended 19 links in it. 20 21 22 Q. It sorted of had its own separate And what determined what links were recommended? A. It's a pretty complex process, 23 actually, generating those recommendations. 24 don't know that I have a full handle on -- 25 Q. I Uh-huh. Page 315 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. -- all of the code for the entire 2 process. 3 the data that we're talking about here that I 4 cite in the report. 5 Q. There's some specific files that use Was -- is it fair to say that, for a 6 period of time, the URLs shared in Messages -- 7 URL attachments -- because they incremented one 8 of the -- one of the values in the tracking 9 info field in this global share object, 10 which -- that influenced, among many other 11 things, how popular that particular URL was, 12 and thus, you know, how likely it was to be 13 recommended on a third-party Web site? 14 A. That's a fair characterization. 15 Q. Okay. And at -- other kinds of URL 16 shares went into that calculation as well, such 17 as public posts, comments on URLs, so on and so 18 forth. 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding 21 that at some point Facebook stopped including 22 URLs -- URL attachments in private messages in 23 that calculation? 24 25 A. I'm actually just unsure. The code has changed since the initial file that Page 316 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 identified and cited here. 2 looking to try to see one way or another if 3 those values are being used now. 4 Q. Okay. And I'm still So in Paragraph 60 when you 5 say in the last sentence -- and you're 6 referring to recommendation -- "This use proves 7 that private message content was used to affect 8 these external recommendations made to other 9 users," you're referring to the URL attachment 10 which led to the creation of a user-specific 11 share object which incremented the tracking 12 info field in the global share object, which 13 informed the recommendations. 14 A. I think that -- that's a fair 15 description of the process. 16 that incrementing of the field in the global 17 share object necessarily follows exactly like 18 you said from the creation of the user share 19 object. 20 Q. I'm not sure if But the -- the essence of i tis right. There could be variability regarding 21 whether or not a user share object incremented 22 the tracking info field? 23 A. I would just want to look at the 24 code to see if that's a single unified process 25 or separate process. That's the only thing I'm Page 317 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 catching on there. Q. Okay. You have a section called "Insights Developer API." 4 And let's talk a little bit about -- 5 what are you referring to in this section 6 specifically? 7 the -- the use of this private -- this 8 intercepted private message content that you're 9 referencing here? 10 A. What sort of a gravamen of This provided demographic 11 information about people who had interacted 12 with URLs of external Web sites, in this case 13 shared those URLs in a private message. 14 Q. And you do cite a lot of -- well, 15 what -- in -- in -- in reaching -- you cite a 16 lot of e-mails and sort of other documents in 17 this section. 18 Were you able to observe in the code 19 itself the -- the phenomena that you're 20 discussing? 21 22 23 A. I haven't been able to track it down in the code yet. Q. Okay. Do you know if, throughout 24 the entire class period, URL attachments shared 25 in messages were reflected in the Insights Page 318 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 dashboard? 2 A. 3 4 I don't know if they were reflected there for the whole class period. Q. And similarly, do you know if, to 5 the extent they were reflected in 6 Domain Insights, they would have been reflected 7 in the demographic information? 8 9 10 11 A. Can you rephrase that question for me? Q. Yeah. Sorry. That was a poorly worded question. 12 13 I'm sorry. So for the duration of the class period, do you know -- well, strike that. 14 The -- earlier I think you testified 15 you haven't been able to track down in the code 16 whether, throughout the entire class period, 17 URL attachments shared in messages were 18 reflected on the Insights dashboard. 19 Would you say the same thing about 20 specifically demographic information from URL 21 attachments and messages? 22 that was reflected of the insights dashboard? You don't know if 23 A. For the entire class period? 24 Q. Correct. 25 A. That's correct. Page 319 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Do you -- do you know that it was 2 implemented for -- for some part of the class 3 period? 4 A. So I have this cited in Paragraph 5 74, experiments that Ashkan Soltani ran that 6 suggest that they were included in there. 7 8 I have not tracked down the code related to that yet. 9 Q. Uh-huh. 10 A. Be the same as the other code we 11 were talking about. 12 strongly suggest that it was included there. 13 Q. But his experiments And so that would be things like 14 gender, age range, language, country, that sort 15 of -- sort of broad demographic data? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. And -- and we discussed this 18 briefly earlier, but Domain Insights allowed 19 the owner of a domain to go in an access 20 certain kinds of analytics about people's 21 interactions with his or her Web site? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know, for any given 24 Web site, whether the Insights dashboard was 25 actually viewed by the domain owner? Page 320 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I'm sorry. 2 Q. Yeah. 3 Can you repeat that? Sorry. Do you know, for any given Web site, 4 whether or not the insights dashboard for 5 that -- reflecting information for that site 6 was actually viewed by or accessed by the 7 domain owner? 8 9 10 A. I'm certain that information exists at Facebook, but I haven't seen any of it. Q. But I'm -- I'm asking like would the 11 owner of the domain -- is there way -- a way to 12 tell if the -- do you know if the owner of the 13 domain ever actually went and looked at it? 14 A. The answer's the same. I'm sure 15 that information exists at Facebook. 16 That's just not information I have. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. So you could tell, for any given 19 domain -- 20 Q. Oh, I see what -- 21 A. -- if someone -- 22 Q. -- you're saying. 23 A. -- had accessed it and -- and looked 24 at it. 25 Q. I see what you're saying. Okay. Page 321 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 What's your understanding regarding 2 the relationship between external node 3 recommendations --I'm sorry -- external node 4 recommenders and Taste? 5 6 A. My understanding -- let me just go back to that. 7 My understanding is that Taste 8 replaced functionality of the external node 9 recommender. 10 Q. Uh-huh. And do you know, for -- for 11 the duration of the class period, if Taste has 12 used information from URLs shared in messages? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Okay. Regarding Paragraph No. 79, 15 "API Queries," we talked, again, about this a 16 bit earlier, but what are your -- your 17 conclusions with respect to API queries is 18 that you could -- you could -- you could query 19 the API for a given Web site and get sort of 20 general analytics data about interactions with 21 the site? 22 A. Right. You could get the counts of 23 how many people had shared the URL, which 24 included -- 25 Q. Uh-huh. Page 322 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. -- shares through private messages. 2 Q. Uh-huh. Were the shares from 3 private messages broken out separately from -- 4 from broader shares, or were they included with 5 another category? 6 7 8 A. I believe all the -- all the shares, public and private, were grouped together. Q. Okay. Do you know if this 9 information -- if URL -- URLs shared in private 10 messages are still reflected in the information 11 accessible through API queries? 12 A. I believe they are not. 13 Q. Okay. 14 Do you know when that stopped? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Okay. You talk a little bit about 17 incrementing the Like counter in -- starting on 18 Page 23 of your report. 19 A. Quite a bit about it. 20 Q. Yeah. 21 That's true. You're aware that, for a period of 22 time, there was what you describe as double 23 counting? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You discuss that on Paragraph 83. Page 323 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 Do you think that was an intentional thing Facebook did -- 3 A. I don't -- 4 Q. -- or do you think it was a bug? 5 A. I don't -- 6 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I'd 8 put it in either category. I certainly don't 9 think they set out with the intent of counting 10 twice. 11 about it in their internal messages. 12 But they didn't seem super concerned BY MR. JESSEN: 13 Q. About counting twice? 14 A. Yeah. They -- they wanted to fix 15 it, but they were not unhappy with the high 16 Like counts, was my reading of those messages. 17 Q. Okay. Do you know, during the time 18 that -- that the -- the Like counts were being 19 incremented by two, do you know if the 20 information in the tracking info field in the 21 global share object was also being incremented 22 by two? 23 24 25 A. I understand your question. I'm just thinking about how the code connects this. I believe that's correct, looking at Page 324 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 the code that I have here. Q. And really in -- in Paragraphs 85 -- 3 we're running short on time -- but 85 through 4 93, you really discuss -- actually, strike 5 that. Let's move on. 6 Are you of the view, Dr. Golbeck, 7 that keeping a count of the times that a URL is 8 shared across a Web site, including in private 9 messages, is unlawful? 10 MR. RUDOLPH: 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's a really legal question. 14 15 Calls for legal conclusion. 12 13 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Should it be unlawful? 16 MR. RUDOLPH: Same objection. 17 THE WITNESS: Depends. 18 MR. JESSEN: 19 answer on that one. 20 21 (Discussion off the stenographic record.) 22 23 24 25 I bet I know your BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Just want to go back to something we discussed earlier briefly. If a user composes a message and a Page 325 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 URL preview is generated, and then the user 2 hits the send button, and the body of the 3 message is sent along with the URL attachment, 4 and that message goes to a -- message and the 5 attachment go to a Facebook server, if -- if 6 the message and the attachment, okay, if 7 they're in memory on a Facebook server, and the 8 message is awaiting final delivery to a 9 recipient, do you consider that message to be 10 in temporary intermediate storage incidental to 11 the electronic transmission? 12 A. 13 14 MR. RUDOLPH: Form. 15 16 Q. 21 Objection. Calls -- Would you -MR. RUDOLPH: -- for legal conclusion. 19 20 Objection. BY MR. JESSEN: 17 18 I would not -- BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Would you -- you understand there could be a difference of opinion on that? 22 MR. RUDOLPH: 23 BY MR. JESSEN: 24 25 Q. Objection. That other computer scientists might disagree with what you're saying there? Page 326 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 MR. RUDOLPH: 2 Calls for speculation. 3 4 5 6 7 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Or do you think the view that you're espousing is beyond dispute? A. dispute. 8 9 Objection. I always think my views are beyond No. That's not true. I could see someone trying to wedge a technical argument that would say it was 10 temporary storage incidental to the 11 transmission. 12 think it's like such a slimy manipulation of 13 the term as to render it meaningless. 14 someone could disagree with -- I think it's -- honestly, I So 15 Q. I'll -- 16 A. -- it, but I'd -- I would think very 17 18 19 strongly that they were wrong about that. Q. code could be a device? 20 21 MR. RUDOLPH: THE REPORTER: Could you repeat that because of the siren. 24 25 Objection. Argumentative. 22 23 Almost like saying a line of source BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Almost like saying a line of source Page 327 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 code could be a device? 2 A. Are you implying that I'm slimy? 3 Q. No. 4 A. You know I do patent testimony, 5 right? 6 details. So I'm really good at the technical 7 Q. 8 testimony. 9 No, I know. Okay. I know you do patent Let's talk -- and you and I 10 could have very interest philosophical 11 conversations, by the way, but we'll have to 12 save those -- 13 A. Off the record. 14 Q. -- for another -- another time. 15 Okay. Let's -- I want to go to -- 16 you have a discussion on -- starting on Page 27 17 that says: 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. I want to talk a little -- I have "Class members are ascertainable." 20 some questions about that. 21 briefly earlier. 22 23 24 25 We talked about it In Paragraph 102 you discuss the proposed class in this case. And do you understand that the -what we call the putative class members must be Page 328 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 natural persons? 2 You understand that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. Located within the United States. 5 You understand that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. 8 Who sent or received a message from a Facebook user. 9 You see that? 10 A. A private message. 11 Q. Right. 12 13 14 15 I use "private message" and "message" synonymously. A. That's part of our core disagreement. Q. 16 Perhaps. That included a URL in its 17 content -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And from which Facebook generated 22 the URL attachment, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. From within two years of the filing 25 of this action, which is December 31st, 2011 -Page 329 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 or excuse me -- December 30th, 2011, up through 2 the date of class certification. 3 A. I see that, yes. 4 Q. Okay. So that's the proposed -- 5 that's the -- that's the class that the 6 plaintiffs are asking the court to certify. 7 In Paragraph 103, you say that, to 8 retrieve a list of class members, the code 9 process should be relatively straightforward. 10 A database query could be used to select the 11 Facebook user IDs of everyone whose actions had 12 created an ENT share from a private message," 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And "ENT share" is synonymous 16 in this context with "user-specific share 17 object"? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Okay. Is it your expert opinion 20 that the Facebook user IDs of everyone whose 21 actions had created an ENT share from a private 22 message constitutes a list of every member of 23 the proposed class and known nonclass members? 24 25 A. I'm just thinking through that. I -- I do understand the question. Page 330 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Yeah, yeah. 2 A. Just let's me repeat it so I'm -- 3 Take your time. I'm answering correctly. 4 If we have the Facebook IDs of all 5 the people who have sent the message that makes 6 this object, is that enough to identify the 7 members of the class? 8 Q. Yeah. I think that's basically it. 9 A. I think that's right then. 10 Q. Well, although I should add, I mean 11 because the class also includes people who've 12 received messages with URL -- with URLs in 13 their content and from which a URL attachment 14 was generated. 15 16 17 18 So how would you identify those people? A. The people who had received the message? 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. So if you have it, I would want to 21 look at it to make sure -- to look at this -- 22 at the ENT share objects to see if the 23 recipient's listed in there. 24 recall if the recipient is or not. 25 obviously don't have that in the report here. I just don't And I Page 331 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 MR. JESSEN: one. We'll mark this as Exhibit 5. 3 4 Let's take a look at (Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for identification.) 5 THE WITNESS: 6 MR. JESSEN: 7 swap that out? 8 Thank you. Oh. Can we wrong one. 9 MR. RUDOLPH: 10 11 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I gave you the Okay. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Okay. So this -- what's -- the 12 court reporter's handed you Exhibit 5, which is 13 a document with the production numbers FB 6038 14 to 6084. 15 16 This is -- I'll just represent is an ENT share for a particular URL share. 17 Just take a look, and let me know if 18 you can -- you're able to identify the 19 recipient. 20 A. 21 22 Thank you. So trying to go through this quickly, I don't see the recipient -- 23 MR. RUDOLPH: Don't -- okay. 24 THE WITNESS: -- listed here. 25 BY MR. JESSEN: Page 332 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 3 Q. I didn't see it either when we went through it earlier. A. So if -- given that that's the case, 4 the code examples that I have here would 5 retrieve the senders of those messages. 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. From there, because we have 8 information about -- about the message itself, 9 and as you mentioned, there are objects created 10 that represent the message in addition to 11 representing -- 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. -- the attachment, you should be 14 able -- there would be an extra step required 15 beyond what I have here to identify the 16 recipients. 17 this data to then the recipients of the 18 messages with an additional step. 19 20 21 Q. But you should be able to go from What do you think that additional step would entail? A. So you'd modify these slightly so 22 that, instead of just selecting the ID of the 23 person who's -- who was the creator in that ENT 24 share object, you would retrieve the 25 message and -- you know, I haven't looked at Page 333 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 this structure -- at the data structure for 2 storing the message. 3 But -- but certainly one way or 4 another will get you to the recipient because 5 you can see that in your messages folder, 6 right? 7 look at those messages and see that you sent it 8 to a recipient or vice versa and if the 9 attachment is there. 10 Like you can go through and actually Q. Is that similar to the 11 self-identification mechanism you -- you also 12 propose in this? 13 A. Well, self-identification you'd have 14 to ask -- you know, people would be doing it 15 themselves. 16 with code. 17 Q. By Facebook -- 18 A. By -- 19 Q. -- or -- 20 A. -- Facebook. 21 Q. You're saying looking -- actually This could be done automatically 22 looking in people's inboxes to see if the URL 23 attachment was visible? 24 25 I mean is that -- forgive me if I got it wrong, but is that what you're Page 334 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 proposing? 2 A. No, no, no. I'm just saying the 3 fact that -- so you, for example, or I can go 4 to our messages folders on Facebook -- 5 Q. Right? 6 A. -- and retrieve any of those 7 messages shows that the data is stored 8 together, the sender, the recipient and the 9 message ID. 10 So certainly you could self-identify 11 that way. 12 connected -- it has to be for Facebook to be 13 able to display it -- you could use this method 14 to select the people who had sent those 15 messages and the message IDs, and from there, 16 because we know they're all connected, identify 17 the recipients of those messages that had the 18 attachment. 19 Q. But because we know that data is Would the search -- would the 20 results of the query that you discuss in sort 21 of Paragraphs 103 and 104, would that identify 22 share object -- user-specific share objects 23 associated with deleted messages or deleted 24 accounts? 25 A. I'm not sure about either. I'm not Page 335 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 sure what Facebook deletes. So if you delete 2 your Facebook account, generally, the last I 3 checked, Facebook did not actually delete the 4 data with your account. 5 a year later and -- So you could come back 6 Q. Uh-huh. 7 A. -- sign up again, and everything you 8 had done would be there. 9 at depth into this, but I believe that those 10 So I haven't looked messages would be there also. 11 As for deleted messages, I'm not 12 sure. 13 like if Facebook gets rid of these ENT shares 14 if someone deletes a message or not. 15 Q. I haven't looked at what the process is, Would the results of your query 16 identify messages with URL share attachments 17 that were blocked by site integrity processing? 18 A. So my understanding -- and -- and 19 this could have changed over time -- is that 20 Facebook won't actually carry -- follow through 21 with this process if the URL is blocked. 22 Q. The process -- what process? 23 A. Of creating -- 24 Q. Of creating the -- 25 A. -- the objects. Page 336 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. Okay. Would the results of your 2 query identify messages with URL share 3 attachments that did not result in the creation 4 of a share object for one reason or another? 5 6 A. Like in the case of these code errors? 7 Q. Yeah. 8 A. Then I think it would not if -- I'm 9 sorry. 10 Sure. Just so -- repeating this. If -- if there was a URL in the 11 message but the -- and there was a URL 12 attachment but the ENT share object did not get 13 created? 14 Q. Correct. 15 A. Okay. 16 It would not identify that then. 17 I think would be okay actually, 18 because if that object doesn't get created, the 19 person probably isn't a member of the class. 20 Q. Uh-huh. You don't have any way, I 21 gather, of identifying Facebook users who type 22 the URL into the text of a message, had a URL 23 preview generated, and then deleted that 24 preview before they sent the message, correct? 25 A. That's correct. I don't know how Page 337 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 you would know that. 2 Q. 3 excuse me. 4 Okay. And your query "quode" -- Pardon me. Your query code in Paragraph 104 is 5 based upon the attributes you identify in 6 Paragraph 99, correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And in Paragraph 99 you say that 9 10 certain attributes show that a given ENT share was created from a private message, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. So if these attributes are 13 under- or over-inclusive of members of the 14 purported class, the resulting list from your 15 query will similarly be over- or 16 under-inclusive, right? 17 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: If they were, I think 19 that would be true. 20 21 22 23 Form. BY MR. JESSEN: Q. And I gather -- do -- do these messages -- I'm sorry. Pardon me. Do these attributes identify only UR 24 -- URL shares in messages or other kinds of 25 shares for messages? Page 338 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Only URL shares. 2 Q. Did these attributes identify only 3 messages with a URL in their text? 4 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. 5 THE WITNESS: I believe it's the 6 case that this is actually based on the 7 attachment and not on the text of the message. 8 9 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Okay. So this could include a 10 message that -- like if I type in a URL and 11 then a preview is generated, and then I delete 12 the URL but I keep the preview and send it, 13 that would -- that would pick up that 14 message -- 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. -- as well, right? Okay. 17 Do these attributes -- strike that. 18 There was a period of time -- and 19 this is discussed in Alex Himel declaration -- 20 when you could go to a Like button social 21 plug-in on a third-party Web site, and one of 22 the options was you could click "Share in 23 private message." 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then from there you could -- you Page 339 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 could -- you could share the URL in a message. 2 Do you know if -- if the -- your -- 3 the attributes that you identify would pick up 4 those kinds of shares? 5 A. So I'd want to go back and -- and 6 revisit Himel. But I believe it's the case 7 that they would. 8 -- because I kind of remember them making a 9 point about this. I believe that -- that those 10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. I believe it's the case that those 12 share and private message messages were treated 13 the same way in the data. 14 here, so I'd want to confirm that -- But it's not in 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. -- to be sure. 17 Q. Do these attributes -- these four 18 attributes, do they identify only messages 19 including a nonFacebook URL? 20 21 22 A. That's correct. This is only nonFacebook URLs. Q. Do these attributes distinguish 23 between messages whose senders are physically 24 located in the United States and others? 25 A. These attributes do not make that Page 340 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 distinction. Q. Do these attributes distinguish 3 between URLs shared in private messages before 4 December 30th, 2011, and those shared after 5 December 30th, 2011? 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 A. The attributes in Paragraph 99 don't address the date. Q. Do these attributes identify URL message shares that were logged in any way to Nectar? A. So the queries that I have using these -- 13 Q. Uh-huh. 14 A. -- are on the ENT share objects. 15 They're not on the Nectar data. 16 was -- if there were a case where there were 17 not overlap there, it was -- I don't -- I don't 18 know if this could be the case. 19 think harder about it. 20 So if there I'd have to But hypothetically, if it were 21 logged to Nectar and not in an ENT share or the 22 reverse, if they didn't match, then you'd be 23 missing one or the other. 24 missing what's in Nectar. 25 Q. You'd be -- you'd be Right. Page 341 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 So these attributes, they -- you 2 couldn't tell from these attributes whether the 3 URL message share was logged to Nectar; is that 4 accurate? 5 6 A. Nectar. So you're -- I'm not querying So -- 7 Q. Right? 8 A. -- you know, if that were the 9 question that I would ask -- 10 Q. Uh-huh. 11 A. -- that I were asked, I'd actually 12 want to go back to the code a little bit to -- 13 to connect the Nectar logging process with this 14 to kind of see exactly where the dependencies 15 and connections are. 16 querying Nectar with these properties. 17 Q. Okay. But certainly this is not Do these attributes identify 18 URL message shares that resulted in an 19 increment in the 20 A. 21 table? Again, this is not querying the table. 22 Q. Got it. 23 A. But this is a code connection 24 between the creation of the objects this would 25 identify and that incrementing. Page 342 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. What's that code connection? 2 A. Like do you want specific lines? 3 Q. No, but just in general. 4 A. So there -- 5 Q. If you remember. 6 A. There are lines of code. So I -- I 7 know I have -- I was just looking at it. 8 are lines of code that do the logging for the 9 There table that's connected to this. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Theoretically it's possible, but 12 they could be different for some of these 13 errors. 14 shares; it's not querying 15 Q. 16 17 But again, this is querying the ENT Right. Do these attributes identify URL message shares that were utilized by Taste? 18 A. It does not. 19 Q. Do these attributes identify URL 20 message shares that were displayed in any 21 recommendations plug-in? 22 A. Does not. 23 Q. Do these attributes identify URL 24 message shares that were displayed in any 25 activity feed? Page 343 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do these attributes identify URL 3 message shares that were included in data from 4 any API available to third parties? 5 6 7 A. It does not uniquely identify those, Q. Do these attributes identify URL no. 8 message shares that were reflected in Insights 9 data? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What about demographic data made 12 13 available to third parties? A. No. I mean in all cases these 14 things certainly could have been used this way. 15 But they're not distinguished in the query 16 here. 17 18 Q. They could have been, sort of a case-specific issue. 19 A. I think that's right. 20 Q. Yeah. 21 So I just have a few more along this same lines. 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. Do these attributes identify URL 24 message shares that resulted in any increment 25 in the Like counter on a third party Web site? Page 344 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. I just want to make sure -- I know 2 you've given me a bunch of these questions -- 3 just so I'm answering them correctly. 4 are only going to identify ENT share objects. So these 5 Q. Understood. 6 A. All these things that you're asking 7 about, as I'm agreeing that they're not shown 8 there, is that that data's not connected to 9 these objects. 10 Q. Understood. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. And I've only got a couple more. 13 And I'm sorry -- 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. -- it's a little repetitive. 16 A. No. I just wanted to make sure, 17 when I say no, it doesn't show up there, that 18 we're -- that I'm answering -- 19 Q. Yeah? 20 A. -- within your asking. 21 Q. Yeah. I'm just trying to understand 22 exactly what your -- what these attributes 23 would identify and what they -- what they 24 wouldn't. 25 A. Okay. Page 345 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 Q. So these attributes wouldn't 2 identify whether or not a message share had 3 resulted in an increment in a Like button 4 social plug-in counter on a third-party Web 5 site. 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Okay. Do these attributes 8 distinguish between messages whose senders or 9 recipients are natural persons and those that 10 11 12 13 14 are not? A. That can be kind of a very philosophical question. Q. Especially since you study artificial intelligence. 15 A. Yeah. I mean that's the thing, 16 right? 17 have bots with accounts, right, artifical 18 intelligence with accounts -- If -- so Facebook doesn't want you to 19 Q. Uh-huh. 20 A. -- and would block those. 21 But, you know, if it didn't know if 22 I had written a bot to do that, since Facebook 23 has no way of distinguishing that, even though 24 they technically don't allow it, it wouldn't 25 distinguish. That's assuming, you know, people Page 346 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 are violating those terms of Facebook. 2 3 Q. You -- you say it wouldn't distinguish. 6 7 I just want to make sure I heard you correct. 4 5 Okay. A. Correct. So if I signed up a bot, Facebook -- 8 Q. Right. 9 A. -- didn't know it was a bot, and it 11 Q. Right. 12 A. -- started sending private messages, 10 13 14 -- you wouldn't be able to distinguish that. Q. Do these attributes distinguish 15 between messages sent by Facebook users and 16 those that were sent by nonFacebook users? 17 18 19 A. I don't think you could send one of these messages if you weren't a Facebook user. Q. Do these attributes distinguish 20 between messages whose users knew about and 21 consented to the alleged interceptions? 22 23 24 25 A. I don't know how anyone would have known about and consented to the interceptions. Q. But -- okay. But it's possible that someone could have, right? Page 347 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. Yeah. Like I guess if Facebook 2 engineer would have known this was happening, 3 this would identify the Facebook engineer even 4 if he or she had consented. 5 filter out manually -- But it's easy to 6 Q. But you -- 7 A. -- afterwards. 8 Q. -- you could tell -- these 9 attributes wouldn't tell you -- and I -- 10 consent is a -- is an issue that the Court will 11 decide. 12 But you couldn't tell -- you could 13 get a list of people who had sent messages 14 containing URL shares, but these attributes 15 aren't going to tell you which of those users 16 consented to the conduct that you're 17 complaining about, right? 18 19 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Calls for legal conclusion. 20 THE WITNESS: Short of making a 21 legal conclusion, yes, because consent is just 22 not recorded. 23 BY MR. JESSEN: 24 Q. Say that -- consent is not recorded? 25 A. Yes. This is all accessing data Page 348 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that Facebook has recorded. 2 Q. Oh, I see. 3 A. They haven't -- 4 Q. Oh, I see. 5 A. -- recorded if I know about it or 6 have consented. 7 pull that out. 8 9 MR. JESSEN: saying. 10 11 I see what you're Okay. I think we have maybe five minutes left. 12 13 So these attributes wouldn't THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You've six minutes. 14 MR. JESSEN: Six? 15 If you guys just give us like five 16 minutes, we'll look through our notes, figure 17 out... 18 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 6:19. 20 (A short recess was taken.) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 22 6:38. 23 24 25 On the record at BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Dr. Golbeck, you have some statements in your report regarding your view Page 349 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 that if Facebook Message is delivered when it 2 reaches HBase and is in persistent storage at 3 that time. 4 You remember that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. If Facebook created 7 user-specific share objects based on URL share 8 attachments in private messages, after the 9 message and the attachment had reached HBase, 10 would you consider that to be an interception? 11 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Certainly not as I've 13 Form. analyzed it here. 14 BY MR. JESSEN: 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. You know, it's a hypothetical. It 17 seems like probably not, but I would want to 18 see the actual details of -- of what's 19 happening in the process to be sure. 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I gather you still would view that as a privacy violation? MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. Incomplete hypothetical. THE WITNESS: I -- personally I would, yes. Page 350 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Yes. Okay. 3 Do you think that you're more 4 privacy sensitive than a lot of people? 5 6 MR. RUDOLPH: Objection. Form. THE WITNESS: I don't think so. Vague. 7 I 8 think I'm more privacy invasion aware than most 9 people. 10 BY MR. JESSEN: 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. But when I talk to people about the 13 things that I view as privacy invasions that 14 are happening that not -- 15 Q. Right. 16 A. -- everybody knows about, they tend 17 18 19 to be as spooked and appalled as I am. Q. Do they alter their conduct typically after learning of these practices? 20 MR. RUDOLPH: 21 Calls for speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: Objection. Form. Lacks foundation. So I -- you know, I 23 can't really know. But when I do go and give 24 these talks that I mentioned to you, I show 25 this video called "Take This Lollipop," which Page 351 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 you should try if you never have. 2 creepy Facebook stalker guy look at your 3 profile. 4 Makes a And I always get lots of people 5 saying, "I'm just going to go delete my 6 Facebook account right now," which is not a -- 7 really a Facebook issue, and it certainly 8 doesn't have to do with private messages. 9 But yeah. People -- I think, when 10 they find out about privacy issues like this, 11 definitely contemplate changing their behavior. 12 Whether they do is a question because there's 13 not a lot of alternatives other than totally 14 opting out of online life. 15 16 BY MR. JESSEN: Q. Let's go back to the section on 17 ascertainability. 18 couple of questions about -- you say in 19 paragraph 105 on Page 29: 20 were not an option, direct code could be 21 written to access the data." 22 I want to just ask you a And then you say: "If database queries "For each share 23 object, something like the following checks 24 would determine if it were a share generated 25 from that private message." Page 352 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 See that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I just want to understand exactly 4 what -- what -- exactly what are you proposing 5 there? 6 7 8 9 Like are you proposing a -- a manual look-up process for every share object? A. Certainly not manual. It would be code. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. So one could, for example, get a 12 list of all the ENT share objects, loop through 13 them with this query, which would identify 14 those that were created from private messages. 15 16 Q. How is it -- how is it different from what you were proposing in your query -- 17 A. So the -- 18 Q. -- code? 19 A. -- the foundation of it -- 20 Q. Yep? 21 A. -- is essentially the same. 22 Q. Uh-huh. 23 A. Paragraph 104 is SQL, S-Q-L, code. 24 25 Paragraph 105 is roughly PHP code. Q. Uh-huh. Page 353 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 A. So it's just a matter of is it a 2 query you would make in a database because the 3 data's accessible in that way. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. Or is it one that you would write 6 7 separate code for. Q. Do you know -- you have any sense 8 for how much time and effort it would take to 9 generate these -- these lists of proposed class 10 11 12 members? A. From a programming perspective or a computational time perspective? 13 Q. Let's do both. 14 A. So I -- I have no idea how long it 15 would take to run this -- 16 Q. Uh-huh. 17 A. -- just because Facebook has a 18 pretty sophisticated C loud-based architecture. 19 Q. Yeah. 20 A. So it'd be a lot different than me 21 22 running it on my computer. Generating the code, you know, the 23 core of it would be very fast, you know, 24 something you can do in a few minutes. 25 Actually implementing it so it would run, you Page 354 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 know, it should take somebody a day or two to 2 kind of work out all the bugs and -- and -- 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. -- figure it out. It shouldn't take 5 -- for a competent Facebook engineer, it 6 shouldn't take an inordinate amount of time. 7 MR. JESSEN: 8 further questions at this time. 9 Okay. I don't have any I would renew my request for those 10 three e-mails between Dr. Golbeck and the 11 plaintiffs' counsel before she was engaged. 12 13 MR. RUDOLPH: We're -- we're going to have to get back to you on that. 14 MR. JESSEN: 15 MR. RUDOLPH: 16 to -- to look into it. 17 MR. JESSEN: Okay. And I'll just -- Haven't had have time Even though I think 18 it's unlikely I would bring you back, I will 19 just reserve my right to bring you back if need 20 be. 21 THE WITNESS: 22 that we have left on the record. 23 fun. 24 MR. JESSEN: 25 THE WITNESS: For the 15 seconds That'd be They might -I'll totally do 15 Page 355 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 seconds. 2 MR. JESSEN: They might give me 3 another -- you know, little -- little bit -- 4 but hopefully that won't be necessary. 5 THE WITNESS: There -- there's 6 nothing too exciting in those e-mails. 7 No. 8 communications. I know. 9 10 I shouldn't talk about any of the MR. JESSEN: your time. Well, thank you for Happy birthday. 11 THE WITNESS: 12 MR. JESSEN: 13 Thank you. And I have no further questions. 14 MR. RUDOLPH: 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 16 17 18 19 20 So... Yeah. No questions. Off the record at 6:44. This is the end of Media Unit 4 and the end of the deposition. (Whereupon, the proceeding was concluded at 6:45 p.m.) 21 22 23 24 25 Page 356 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC I, Bonnie L. Russo, the officer before 3 whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do 4 hereby certify that the witness whose testimony 5 appears in the foregoing deposition was duly 6 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness 7 was taken by me in shorthand and thereafter 8 reduced to computerized transcription under my 9 direction; that said deposition is a true 10 record of the testimony given by said witness; 11 that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor 12 employed by any of the parties to the action in 13 which this deposition was taken; and further, 14 that I am not a relative or employee of any 15 attorney or counsel employed by the parties 16 hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested 17 in the outcome of the action. 18 19 20 <%signature%> 21 Notary Public in and for 22 the District of Columbia 23 24 My Commission expires: June 30, 2020 25 Page 357 Veritext Legal Solutions 877-955-3855

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