O'Bannon, Jr. v. National Collegiate Athletic Association et al

Filing 233

Deposition Designations by Edward C. O'Bannon, Jr. (Attachments: #1 Exhibit A, #2 Exhibit B, #3 Exhibit C, #4 Exhibit D, #5 Exhibit E, #6 Exhibit F, #7 Exhibit G, #8 Exhibit H, #9 Exhibit I)(Bojedla, Swathi) (Filed on 6/20/2014) Modified on 6/23/2014 (kcS, COURT STAFF).

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EXHIBIT C Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page1 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA WESTERN DIVISION JASON WHITE, BRIAN POLAK, CHRIS CRAIG and JOVAN HARRIS, on Behalf of Themselves and All Others Similarly Situated, ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Case No. ) CV 06-0999 VBF (MANx) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Plaintiffs, vs. NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, an unincorporated association, Defendant. VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION OF WALTER BYERS Taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs pursuant to Notice of Deposition on the 24th day of July 2007, beginning at the hour of 8:40 a.m. CST, at the Byers Ranch, 25695-25709 Aiken Switch Road, Emmett, Kansas 66422; Dana Burkdoll, Shorthand Reporter. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page7 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 7 4 Q. Can you state your name for the record, sir. 5 A. Walter Byers. 6 Q. How old are you now, Mr. Byers? 7 A. Eighty-five. 8 Q. I understand that you're retired, now, sir; is 9 that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And how long, sir, have you been retired? 12 A. Well, I guess from the NCAA, if that's what 13 you're talking about, not the cattle business, I retired 14 in '90 -- 36 years there from '51 to '87. 15 two years as an emeritus and retired at that point after 16 the two years emeritus. 20 21 22 Q. And then had Sure, can you tell me when you first started working at the NCAA? A. Well, I started in 1947, I think, I worked 23 part-time for both the NCAA and the Big Ten Conference 24 and shared a secretary, one secretary, and worked 25 approximately 50 percent of my time both places. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 And Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page8 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 8 1 then I became -- I was NCAA Executive Assistant during 2 those years, and then I became Executive Director in the 3 fall of '51, and then I worked full-time for the NCAA 4 thereafter. 5 Q. Let's start with your first position at the NCAA. 6 Can you tell us a little bit -- I know it was long ago, 7 but can you tell us generally what your duties and 8 10 11 12 Q. Yes, sir. You said from about 1947 up until you became Executive Director of 1951 -A. I did a lot of jobs that nobody else wanted to 13 do, I'll say that, starting out. 14 publicity. 15 the commissioner, who was Kenneth L. (Tug) Wilson, who 16 was also the Secretary/Treasurer of the NCAA at that 17 time. 18 and I guess that's about it. 19 Q. And I handled the I handled meeting arrangements. Assisted I assisted him at any jobs he wanted to perform, Now, you stated, sir, that you became the 20 Executive Director of the NCAA in 1951. 21 a little bit about what it is that you did as the 22 Executive Director? 23 A. 24 Can you tell us Well, you're talking about 36 years now or are we -- 25 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page9 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 9 1 2 How long did you hold the position of Executive Director? 3 A. Well, from '51 to '37 -- '87. 4 Q. And as Executive Director, Mr. Byers, were you 5 the NCAA's highest ranking official? 6 A. That's true. 7 Q. Basically, the CEO, sir, of the NCAA? 8 A. Yeah. 9 10 11 12 Roughly speaking, I was the manager so to say. Q. For those 36 years, sir, can you give us a sense of your duties and responsibilities? A. Well, starting out it was a new organization 13 really, and we started out trying to hold the thing 14 together because it was -- it was kind of a rough birth 15 for the organization. 16 enforcement -- well, we ran championships to start with. 17 We had a whole series of championships that we took care 18 of at those early years. 19 And we had -- television had not come on forcefully, but 20 it was raising its head, so we had television 21 negotiations. 22 the rules and finally had to have a major enforcement 23 department in that area. 24 topsy. 25 one secretary, and I suppose in the -- in the last year, And we gradually moved into I'm talking about in the 50s. Then we finally got into enforcement of And it kind of grew like We started out with one full-time employee and Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page10 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 10 1 I suppose, we had 165 to 70 full-time employees. 2 a growth situation. 3 4 Q. It was And to be clear, sir, by the last year, you're talking about 1987? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. You mentioned enforcement, sir, can you tell us 7 8 9 what you mean by "enforcement"? A. Well, the NCAA had a, starting out, had an honors program more or less. The people would agreed to abide 10 by the rules and wouldn't cheat on them. 11 a pledge of honor, I guess. And so there was good faith 12 acceptance of that premise. And then, of course, once 13 more rules came into play, there was less belief, at 14 least within the organization, that those who said they 15 were following the rules, weren't actually doing it. 16 we started an enforcement program. 17 really, and it grew until -- it was a major element of 19 Q. That was just So I guess, one person You also mentioned television, sir. As the 20 NCAA's Executive Director, did you have any involvement 21 in the negotiation of television contracts for college 22 sports? 23 A. 24 25 Yes. I probably got involved from the first one until the last one. Q. Does the NCAA, sir, hold annual meetings or did Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page11 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 11 1 it at the time that you were there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you attend those meetings, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did those meetings involve the legislative 6 process at the NCAA? 7 A. Yes. 22 Q. During your time at the NCAA, sir, did you have 23 occasion to become familiar with the NCAA's notion of 24 amateurism? 25 A. Yes. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page13 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 13 2 Q. How about the NCAA's financial aid rules, 3 Mr. Byers. Did you have occasion to participate in the 4 legislation and enforcement of the NCAA's financial aid 5 rules during your time there, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And can you tell us for how long, during your 8 9 time at the NCAA, the NCAA had financial aid rules? A. Well, the first, I guess, the standard, you call 10 it, which is -- I think took place in 1948, give or 11 take, the "Sanity Code" was the first effort, serious 12 effort, for the membership to the adopt rules that would 13 apply to athletes at the colleges in season. 14 Q. Uh-huh. 15 A. We had eligibility rules almost from day one that 16 applied to the NCAA championships. 17 place, I guess, at the time I came -- attached to the 18 NCAA. 19 adopt in-season standards that members would have to 21 22 Q. And they were in But the "Sanity Code" was the first effort to And did the NCAA's financial aid rules change during your time at the NCAA? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you have occasion, sir, to participate in 25 those changes? Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page14 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 14 1 A. Well, I had an opportunity to participate in 2 discussions leading up to those changes. 3 always were made on the floor of the convention or by 4 the NCAA counsel through interpretations, you know, so 5 with that explanation. 6 7 Q. The changes Sir, are you familiar with a book entitled, Unsportsmanlike Conduct: Exploiting College Athletes? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I'm going to mark this, Mr. Byers, as our first 10 exhibit. This is Exhibit 398 for the record. 11 Actually, I'll just go ahead and mark it. 12 (Exhibit No. 398 was marked for the record.) 13 MR. NAGY: 14 18 19 20 21 Do you need a copy, David? MR. GRAND: Q. Can you tell us sir, who wrote this book, Unsportsmanlike Conduct? A. I -- I authored the book with the assistance of Charles Hammer. 22 Q. How long did it take you to write this book, sir? 23 A. Two years, I guess, something like that. 24 25 It -- it took longer than I expected, let me put it that way. Q. You mentioned earlier, Mr. Byers, that you worked Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page15 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 15 1 as the NCAA's Executive Director until 1987 and then as 2 an emeritus until 1989. 3 have you continued to monitor and study the NCAA? Since that time, since 1989, 4 A. Since '89? 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. Not particularly. 7 Q. When did you publish this book, sir? 8 A. Well, I'll have to look at the title page, I 9 guess -- 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. -- because I don't recall exactly when it was 12 13 published. Q. It was copyrighted 1995. So up until that time, sir -- I'm simply getting 14 to this point -- you discussed the NCAA's activities and 15 it's bylaws in this book -- 16 A. That's true. 17 Q. -- through 1995. So my question for you, sir, 18 is, were you doing any research at that time concerning 19 the NCAA? 20 MR. GRAND: 21 THE WITNESS: Object to the form. I did research leading up to 22 the book, extensive research. And as you'll notice 23 there is a great amount of footnotes all these -- all 24 these statements I make, but I'm not clear, I guess, on Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page19 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 19 1 MR. GRAND: I do object to questions asking 2 this witness about the NCAA's overall understanding or 3 the NCAA's overall purpose in -- in taking any 4 particular conduct or not taking any particular conduct. 5 MR. NAGY: Sure. Why don't we agree right 6 now, you've got a running objection on the particular 7 point throughout the entire deposition because I'm going 8 to be asking questions like that all day. 9 MR. GRAND: 10 12 That's fine. MR. NAGY: Q. Let's go back, sir, to Exhibit 343. Can you tell 13 us, generally speaking, Mr. Byers, what was the purpose 14 of the NCAA manual? 15 16 17 A. Well, it was to codify the rules and regulations of the association that the members agreed to. Q. I want to talk, sir, for a moment about a rule 18 that's enforced today. 19 it's on a page in this manual that I've marked for you, 20 sir, with a flag. 21 record, I'm on NCAA199000. 22 It's called Bylaw 15.02.5 and Again, sir, it's 15.02.05 and for the Do you see that bylaw there, sir? 23 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page20 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 20 5 Q. Are you familiar with the term "grant-in-aid"? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what you understand that 8 term to mean? 9 A. Based on this language or just grant-in-aids 11 Q. Just grants in aids generally, sir? 12 A. Well, a grant-in-aid is a -- I mentioned the 13 "Sanity Code" earlier, and when the "Sanity Code" failed 14 for reasons I'm -- not particularly relevant at the 15 moment, the NCAA adopted a grant-in-aid rule and it -- 16 it legalized the grant-in-aid to student athletes for 17 all -- it could run for the full undergraduate period of 18 the recipient or it could run for any part of that full 19 -- full four or five years or it could run for only one 20 semester, that was up to the institution. 21 in place, and I think in '56, what I've described was a 22 full grant-in-aid. 23 24 25 But they put Is that responsive to your question? Q. Yes, sir. I think what I'm getting at is when you say "grant-in-aid," sir, are you referring to an Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page21 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 21 1 athletic's based scholarship? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And did you use that term, "grant-in-aid 4 scholarship," with that meaning back during your time at 5 the NCAA? 6 7 A. Yes. Well, scholarship was not part of the term "grant-in-aid." 8 Q. Uh-huh. 9 A. Just interpose them all. The individual's -- 10 recipients scholarship performance was related to the 11 "Sanity Code" that I spoke of earlier. 12 Q. Uh-huh. 13 A. When the "Sanity Code" was defeated and the 14 17 grant-in-aid was put in place, then it was not an Q. Right. And going forward, sir, after the "Sanity 18 Code," for example in the 1970s, did you use the term at 19 the NCAA, "grant-in-aid" during that time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What did it mean to you then, sir? 22 A. Well, normally a grant-in-aid -- starting in '56 23 and going forward through all the years of change, the 24 grant-in-aid covered board, room, books, tuition, fees 25 and $15 a month for -- well, it was called laundry Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page22 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 22 1 money, but it was really a stipend. 2 months was cash payments -- to the aid recipient. 3 Q. Fifteen times nine And I think, sir, you may have just answered my 4 next question. 5 Under today's rule, 15.02.5, a full grant-in-aid cannot 6 contain a stipend for incidental expenses? No. Let me go over it though to be sure. 7 A. There's no provision in this rule to do 8 that. 9 Q. Correct, sir. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Yes. And my question is, sir, is, has the NCAA 12 always prohibited grants-in-aid from including stipends 13 for incidental expenses? 14 A. No. 15 16 17 MR. GRAND: Object to the form. BY MR. NAGY: Q. Can you describe, sir, to us when -- during what 18 time period did the NCAA allow its members to provide 19 grants-in-aid to student athletes that included stipends 20 for incidental expenses? 21 A. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page24 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 24 1 Q. I understand. If I use the term laundry money, 2 sir, will you understand me to be referring to the same 3 cash stipend, the same incidental expenses, can we agree 6 Q. You mentioned, Mr. Byers, that this laundry 7 money, this cash stipend was allowed under NCAA rules 8 from 1956 'til the Economy Convention in 1975, that's 9 about 20 years, sir. My question for you is, during 10 that 20-year period, did the NCAA consider the student 11 athletes who received laundry money to still be 12 amateurs? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And during that time period, sir, generally 15 speaking, did the popularity of college football 16 increase or decrease? 17 A. Increase. 18 19 20 MR. GRAND: BY MR. NAGY: Q. Sir, during the period of 1956 to -- 21 22 Lack of foundation. MR. NAGY: Yeah. He's going to be doing that a lot. 23 THE WITNESS: 24 MR. GRAND: Okay. Not if you ask proper questions. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page25 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 25 15 Q. Did you have any participation, sir, in 16 discussions or gathering information about demand for 17 college football games? 18 A. Oh, the -- sports exploded, if that's what you're 19 asking. 20 attendance was up for football and basketball. 21 dollars rolled in and then there's more money for 22 everybody. 23 deals with that whole arena of experience. 24 start of big-time college athletics and then the 25 explosion that came with the television, the airplane, I mean, the dollars rolled in. You couldn't -The I mean, it was a growth period and my book From the Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page26 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 26 1 and all of those things that made it as a big money 2 machine, is what it was. 3 Q. In this same growth period, sir, 1956 to 1976, 4 did the same trend apply to men's college basketball as 5 well as football? 6 A. Did the same growth apply that I just described? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. Definitely. 9 Q. Did any television network, sir, ever express any 10 concern to you about laundry money? 11 MR. GRAND: 12 THE WITNESS: 14 Q. Objection. The answer is no. I mean -- Did you have any indication, sir, that laundry 15 money somehow lessened the popularity or the demand for 16 football or college basketball? 17 A. No. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page27 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 27 1 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. 2 A. '75 is the year, right? 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Well, I don't have that date right in front of 5 6 Was it '75 or '76, sir? me, but... Q. I can help you with that. Because I've got my 7 next big exhibit here. 8 Actually, it's not this one, it's this one. 11 12 Q. And this one is No. 348. Would you take a look, Mr. Byers, at Exhibit 348, please, sir. 13 A. Okay. 14 MR. GRAND: 15 THE WITNESS: 16 It was in August 14-15, '75. BY MR. NAGY: 17 18 Thank you. Q. Do you remember -- well, first of all, Mr. Byers, did you attend the Economy Convention? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Can you tell us who attended this convention 21 besides yourself? 22 A. Well, the various members of our staff. But the 23 association's dully-appointed delegates from all -- not 24 all of them but from a number of institutions attended 25 it. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page29 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 29 14 Q. Now, looking at 399, Mr. Byers, if you wouldn't 15 mind turning to the second page, sir. We can just move 16 this. 17 A. All right. 18 Q. We see there that the intent of Legislative 19 Proposal No. 4 was to, quote, Contract the definition 20 of -- what's here in quotes -- open quote, commonly 21 accepted educational expenses, closed quote, by 22 eliminating course related supplies and incidental 23 expenses. 24 25 Do you see that, Mr. Byers? A. Yes, sir. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page30 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 30 1 2 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with the term "commonly accepted educational expenses"? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell us what that meant? 5 A. Well, that -- that came in, in '56, and it was a 6 term that was applied to the grant-in-aid that was being 7 legalized by the delegates in 1956. 8 it was a phrase written by athletically-related people, 9 not necessarily the academicians dealing with financial And it was not -- 10 aid. 11 to get to is that, it was a basically an athletic term, 12 and it was designed to say that these expenses are what 13 is commonly understood to be a full ride. 14 another term that we used all of the time, "a full 15 ride." 16 That's probably irrelevant, but what I was trying What's a full ride? That's A full ride is grant-in-aids 17 that cover all these things which are commonly accepted 18 educational expenses. 19 didn't respond to your question. They're interchangeable. Maybe I 20 Q. 21 You said a full ride was interchangeable with a full 22 Actually, I think that you did, sir. grant-in-aid; is that correct? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And a full grant-in-aid is interchangeable with 25 That's correct. commonly accepted educational expenses; is that correct? Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page31 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 31 1 A. Yeah. That's correct. 16 Q. So if I'm understanding you correctly, sir, this 17 was a meeting, the Economy Convention, that took place 18 in 1975, in August you told us, and it was attended by 19 members of the NCAA's delegates, and they voted with 20 paddles as we see here; is that right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Okay. And it says on this Exhibit, sir, 399, 23 that Legislative Proposal No. 4 was approved. 24 mean, sir, that there was an agreement reached as to 25 whether or not this proposal should be become inactive Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Does that Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page32 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 32 1 in the NCAA? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. I want to turn, sir, to the first page of 399 for 4 a moment, and I want to discuss with you the effect of 5 Legislative Proposal No. 4 on student athletes, 6 Mr. Byers. 7 , it lays out for us, sir, the NCAA Constitution, the 8 relevant portions of the NCAA Constitution and beneath 9 that the relevant portion of the NCAA bylaws. If we look at both Section A and Section B. And it 10 shows us how Legislative Proposal No. 4 changed those 11 things. 12 things that were added, sir, on in bold. 13 Things that were removed are in italics and Can you tell me, Mr. Byers, prior to the NCAA's 14 adoption of Legislative Proposal No. 4, what was the 15 definition of commonly accepted educational expenses? 16 A. What was the definition prior? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 19 What did commonly accepted educational expenses include before this? A. Well, it provided for all the things listed 20 there. 21 incidental expenses. 22 Including this italicized, the $15 per month for Is that what you asked me? 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 A. Okay. 25 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page37 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 37 10 Q. And now, sir, I want to discuss the effect of the 11 NCAA's rule change at the Economy Convention on the full 12 grant-in-aid that student athlete's could receive. 13 told me before, sir, that this rule eliminated 14 course-related supplies; is that right? You 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And so I'm going to -- I'm just going to put that 17 down on my list. 18 supplies. 19 were eliminated by this rule; is that correct, sir? 20 24 25 A. I'm going to strike course-related You also mentioned that incidental expenses That's correct. THE WITNESS: Well, if I track this correct and why I paused about this -- Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page38 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 38 2 3 THE WITNESS: but "books" stayed in. 4 5 -- "supplies and" were deleted MR. NAGY: Yes, sir. That's right. BY MR. NAGY: 6 Q. 8 Q. 9 before. I'm sorry. I -- I -- I don't think I said books If I did, I didn't mean to. My understanding 10 of what you said, sir, is supplies were eliminated and 11 the incidental expenses were eliminated. 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. But not the books? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Okay. Yes. And I think I've got that right. 16 I'm going to show you what I've done here and you tell 17 me if I messed it up somehow. 18 (Exhibit No. 401 was marked for the record.) 19 MR. NAGY: 20 MR. GRAND: 21 a copy of 401, please. That's No. 401. If you wouldn't mind printing me 22 MR. NAGY: Sure. 23 MR. GRAND: 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Okay. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page39 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 39 1 Q. Does Exhibit 401, Mr. Byers, accurately reflect 2 the rule change that was adopted at the Economy 3 Convention? 4 A. Correct. 5 MR. NAGY: And I'm just going to take a 6 moment and print a copy here for David. 7 looking at your watch, sir. 8 THE WITNESS: 9 started. 10 And I see you I clocked you when you Do you know want to know what time you started? 11 MR. NAGY: 12 THE WITNESS: 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 14 9:16, I think. Okay. We have about 15 minutes left on this tape. 15 THE WITNESS: 16 MR. NAGY: Could we round it off at 9:15? Sir, we can stop whenever you 17 want to stop. Any time. 18 more question on this topic -- 19 THE WITNESS: 20 MR. NAGY: 21 THE WITNESS: In fact, I've got just a few 22 23 That's fine. -- why don't we stop after that? I want to ask what you want, but... MR. NAGY: No. Absolutely. We're -- let me 24 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page40 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 40 1 badgering you. 2 BY MR. NAGY: 3 Q. I just wanted to keep track of the time. Going back, sir, to Legislative Proposal No. 4. 4 Can you tell us, Mr. Byers, was Legislative Proposal No. 5 4 good for student athletes or bad for student athletes? 6 A. Well, it depended on their circumstances. I 7 mean -- and it depended on the academic attainment of 8 the individual athlete. 9 bad for them. So full-need athletes, it was I mean, all -- most of the big-time 10 athletes, football and basketball, were probably 11 full-need athletes. 12 The better students, we -- had high academic attainment, So it took money away from them. 13 18 19 Q. Well, let me try this, sir, did Legislative Proposal No. 4 help anyone? 20 A. Say it again. 21 Q. Did it help any student athletes? 22 A. Well, it didn't. No, it did not. It took away 23 money from all athletes. Some of them may not have 24 needed it because they had other access to academic 25 scholarships. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page42 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 42 1 2 3 universities. Q. When you say "the universities," sir, are you speaking of the NCAA members? 4 5 Q. So in other words, would you agree that the 6 purpose of Legislative Proposal Number 4 was to save 7 money for the NCAA's members? 8 MR. GRAND: 9 THE WITNESS: 10 Asked answered. For the NCAA member institutions? 11 MR. NAGY: 12 THE WITNESS: 13 The answer is yes to that, too. 14 Yes, sir. BY MR. NAGY: 15 16 Q. Was Legislative Proposal No. 4 necessary to preserve or promote amateurism? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was Legislative Proposal No. 4 necessary to 19 20 21 22 23 promote or preserve competitive equity? A. No. MR. NAGY: And I think, Mr. Byers, this would be a good time to take a little break. THE WITNESS: Thank you sir. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page47 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 47 1 MR. NAGY: 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 3 (Off the record.) 6 Q. Let's go off the record. Off the record at 10:32. Before our little break, Mr. Byers, I was about 7 to read you the first of several reasons the NCAA has 8 given regarding its financial aid rules. 9 one, sir, is this: ( As read:) And the first The NCAA's financial 10 aid rules promote the creation and enhancement of 11 amateur college athletics as products or activities that 12 are distinct from professional in other amateur 13 athletics. 14 allow the creation of a product, amateur college 15 athletics, that would otherwise not exist and are 16 accordingly procompetitive. 17 The NCAA's financial aid rules accordingly And my question for you, sir, is, do you believe 18 that the NCAA needs to restrict grants-in-aid so that 19 they do not cover incidental expenses in order for 20 amateur college athletics to exist? 21 A. No. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page48 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 48 1 the competition is among amateur student athletes. 2 Do you agree with that statement, sir? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Let me move on to the next one. This one says, 5 (As read:) 6 among NCAA member institutions in the various sports in 11 12 13 14 15 They promote competitive balance between and First of all sir, can you tell me, are you familiar with this term "competitive balance"? A. Well, I've heard it used. Yes. I understand what they're saying. Q. Can you tell me, sir, based on your three and a 16 half decades of experience as the NCAA's Executive 17 Director, what does competitive balance really mean? 18 A. Well, it's a term that is used to the benefit of 19 the speaker or the individual that's -- it's an art form 20 that a person likes to use but has no relevancy 21 particularly. 22 that can be stretched in any direction you want to 23 justify a present circumstance. 24 NCAA is trying to defend. 25 Competitive balance is an elastic term In this case, what the And if you want to talk about competitive balance Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page49 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 49 1 in the major sports, which are men's football and men's 2 basketball, the competitive balance, the elimination of 3 these articles doesn't enhance competitive balance 4 particularly. 5 what I'm trying to get to is that, if you look at the 6 number of power teams in Division I Basketball and you 7 look at the number of power teams in Division I 8 football, the core group of institutions are basically 9 the same. It -- again, I'm being repetitive but And they can have March Madness and talk 10 about this upset and that, but you go and look at the 11 bracket and see what the by's, the ranked team in each 12 Bracket 1 or 2 and whatever they are, they almost always 13 get into the Final 16 and the Final 4. 14 basically the same group of institutions that are ending 15 up fighting for the title no matter how many the 64, the 16 68 that finally started -- that do start March Madness. 17 And that is I mean -- and you talk about the football power 18 teams, it takes a top 12, 14, 15, they're all there; and 19 they're the ones that get into the big bowl games and 20 get into the playoffs. 21 and it defies any kind of reason to use those kind of 22 arguments that these rules and these $15 in or out 23 affect competitive balance because it's ridiculous. 24 It's unrelated to competitive balance. So it's not -- it is not logical End of speech. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page50 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 50 10 Is competitive balance a legitimate reason for 11 the NCAA to prohibit its members from allowing 12 grants-in-aid or providing grants-in-aid that include 13 incidental expenses? 14 15 16 A. No. It's irrelevant. It's not -- it's not -- it's not pertinent at all. Q. The next one, sir, says, (As read:) The NCAA's 17 financial aid rules help to minimize or eliminate the 18 effect of boosters, agents, gamblers and other 19 professionalizing or improper influences on college 20 athletics. 21 clear and enforceable standard for athletics-based aid. In particular, Bylaw 15.02.05 establishes a 22 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page51 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 51 8 9 Q. And finally, sir, is it says here, (As read:) The NCAA's financial aid rules help to encourage student 10 athletes to experience college as both students and 11 athletes. 12 athletes a greater incentive to focus on and greater 13 likelihood to succeed in their education by giving them 14 a financial stake in that education. 15 16 In particular, Bylaw 15.02.5 gives student Do you agree with that statement, sir? A. No. 17 18 MR. NAGY: here for the court reporter. 19 20 21 22 23 Are we -- We are taking a moment (Off the record.) BY MR. NAGY: Q. Mr. Byers, I want to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 356. MR. NAGY: Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page53 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 53 1 MR. NAGY: Well, actually I typed from it 2 the testimony of the -- of the 30(b)(6) witness. 3 is -- it is the testimony of the 30(b)(6) witness, he 4 adopted it at the end of it. 5 deposition, marked 356. 6 MR. GRAND: 7 MR. NAGY: 8 9 So it And it was, at that Got it. That's the background, sir. BY MR. NAGY: Q. 12 So I want to go over this list with you and see Do you agree, sir, that providing incidental 13 expenses to a student athlete in the form of a 14 grant-in-aid constitutes pay for play? 15 A. Well, it doesn't constitute any more than the 16 grant-in-aid itself. The grant-in-aid is basic a 17 one-year contract. 18 out earlier. It used to be four years and they cut it 19 back to one. And a one-year contract sets up the 20 one-year tryout, and the one-year tryout gets rid of all 21 of the players that aren't good enough to play and the 22 coach brings in a whole new group. 23 Division I Basketball. 24 Football. 25 that are good enough stay and the others are cut loose It's on one year now which I brought I'm talking about I'm talking about Division IA And that's the way it works. The players Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 104a 602 701 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page54 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 54 4 104a 602 Q. Uh-huh. 701 NCAA MIL A. So the contract, itself, is a contract for 5 & 7 (Dkt. athletic performance. I believe that, it's in the book, No. 166) 5 and I hold that to be self-evident and true. 6 grant-in-aid, itself, is a contract for athletic 7 performance and when you tack -- when you tinker around 8 -- when you tinker around with, is it $15 a month, is it 9 in or out, it's an irrelevancy to the whole question of 1 2 3 10 after one year, and they go find another place to play. So the pay because one year is a pay contract period. 11 Q. Let's move on to the second one, sir. 12 A. Let's do that. 13 Q. Well, let me clarify. 14 I want -- I want to understand this. 15 Do you believe, then, that pay for play is not -- 16 is or is not a legitimate reason for prohibiting 17 grants-in-aid that include incidental expenses? 18 A. No, it's invalid. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. No. 2 simply says, (As read:) 22 23 It's an invalid reason. Now, moving on to No. 2. No. 2 -- Doesn't have the support of the voters. And I will tell you so that "the voters" meant Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page58 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 58 1 2 pray tell? Q. What is the collegiate model? The collegiate model was used, sir, by this 3 witness to mean that he didn't like saying "amateurism," 4 he preferred "collegiate model" and it simply meant 5 students at -- student athletes who are at a college or 6 another NCAA member institution. 7 A. It's too general. 8 Q. Do you believe -- 9 A. It's not -- it's a period. I'll just leave it 11 Q. How about the second part? Do you believe, sir, 12 that allowing student athletes to receive incidental 13 expenses as part of their grant-in-aid undermines the 14 principles of amateurism? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Let's move down to No. 4, sir. This one says, 17 (As read:) 18 process and principles of the institution. 19 A. Draws upon the recognized financial aid The institution uses the U.S. Office of Education 20 formula for all incoming students. Interposed over it 21 is the NCAA limits that are only related to athletes. 22 And they're not -- No. 4, they're not drawing upon the 23 financial aid process and principles of the institution 24 at all. They're defending a defined limitation that's Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page61 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 61 1 2 3 BY MR. NAGY: Q. I'm looking, sir, at Page 374. What I did to try to make this easier for you -- 4 A. Oh, you got tabs on it. 5 Q. -- I tried to tab starting at the top and moving 6 down. Okay. 7 This is 374. MR. NAGY: And for the record, Mr. Byers is 8 looking at Exhibit No 398, his book. 9 BY MR. NAGY: 10 Q. You speak, sir, on this page in a section 11 entitled, "Free the Athletes" about a proposal you had 12 which you entitled, "The College Athletes Bill of 13 Rights." 14 enact and the President should sign comprehensive 15 College Athletes Bill of Rights. 16 suggestion for new government controls. 17 contrary, it is an argument that the Federal Government 18 should require deregulation of a monopoly business And it says here, (As read:) Congress should That is not a On the 602 701 802 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) 23 My question for you, Mr. Byers, is, do you 24 believe, sir, that the NCAA is a monopoly business 25 operated by not-for-profit institutions contracting Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page62 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 62 1 together to achieve maximum financial returns? 2 MR. GRAND: Objection. 3 MR. NAGY: 4 THE WITNESS: Foundation. You can answer, sir. My comment has to do with the 5 major league programs of college football and college 6 basketball. 7 Division I Basketball. 8 statement I made in the book that they operate a 9 monopoly business and as an exploitation of the young 10 13 I'm talking about Division IA Football and Okay. And I agree with a athlete that are engaged in those programs. I'm moving, now, just to the next page. 14 just move this over here. 15 talking about your bill of rights and the first proposal 16 you make is described here. 17 from 375 to 376. 18 You say, (As read:) This is Page 375. And I'll You're It's actually going to go The bill of rights should 19 deal with five issues of freedom and welfare. No. 1, 20 repeal the rule that establishes the NCAA as national 21 arbiter of the term, value, and conditions of an 22 athlete's, quote, scholarship, closed quote, and as 23 controller of the athlete's outside income during his or 24 her collegiate tenure. 25 policies in the name of amateurism and level of playing Where as the NCAA defends its Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 602 701 802 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page63 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 63 1 fields, they actually are a device to divert the money 2 elsewhere. 3 Do you remember writing that, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And when you say "level playing fields," sir, 6 just to clarify, I understood you to mean to competitive 7 equity, competitive balance, that concept we talked 8 about today. Is that, in fact, what you meant? 9 A. Well, yeah. 10 Q. It's the same concept? 11 A. (Inaudible response.) 12 MR. NAGY: 13 THE WITNESS: 14 MR. NAGY: 15 For the record, was that a yes? That's a yes. Sorry. She can't write down when you shake your head. 16 THE WITNESS: 17 you? 18 Well, she -- you got it didn't BY MR. NAGY: 19 Q. And my next question, sir, is, this last 20 sentence, (As read:) 21 policies in the name of amateurism and level of playing 22 fields -- and going onto end there, sir. 23 24 Whereas the NCAA defends its Does this sentence apply to the NCAA's restrictions on financial aid or were you talking about ? Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 402 602 701 802 NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. No. 166) Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page67 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 67 1 Q. And do you believe, Mr. Byers, that the NCAA's 2 current restrictions on athletics-based financial aid, 3 in particular, the grant-in-aid law or grant-in-aid 4 bylaw we saw earlier today, the 15.02.5, violate the 5 federal antitrust laws? 6 MR. GRAND: 7 MR. NAGY: 8 THE WITNESS: 9 Objection. Lack of foundation. You can answer, sir. Yes. It's a cartel that's restricting things which is a violation of the antitrust 14 602 701 one of the basic principles the NCAA's rules is supposed NCAA MIL 5 & 7 (Dkt. to promote is the following: Quote, student No. 166) 15 participation in intercollegiate athletics is an 16 advocation and student athletes should be protected from 17 exploitation by professional and commercial enterprises, 18 closed quote. 12 13 Q. 19 20 The NCAA's Constitution today, Mr. Byers, says Do you believe, sir, that the NCAA's rules promote that purpose? 21 A. NCAA what? 22 Q. The NCAA's rules. 23 24 Do you believe their rules actually promote that purpose? A. No. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page70 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 70 18 19 Q. Were you aware that the NCAA currently limits financial aids to no more than one academic year. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Byers, whether the NCAA has 22 always had a rule limiting financial aid awards to 23 student athletes to a single academic year? 24 A. No, they have not. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page73 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 73 1 in 30 or 50 athletes in football and, you know, take in 2 5 or 6 basketball, you have one-year to try them out. 3 If they don't make it, you don't renew the aid. 4 out and get more and thin them out and get more and thin 5 them out. 7 8 9 Q. You go So the one-year scholarship legalized and Prior to Legislative Proposal No. 39, sir, did student athletes obtain scholarships for four years? A. Oh, yeah. Yes. They all did. I mean, there was 10 -- okay, historic. 11 out was between Oklahoma and Texas. 12 had four-year awards, Oklahoma gave one. 13 between those two institutions is red hot and still is 14 today. 15 they -- period. 16 17 Q. The historic dual that was fought Between -- Texas And recruiting So yes, there was one-year and four year and I'll stop. And so this rule, sir, eliminated that type of competition between NCAA members? 18 A. True. 19 Q. Would you say, Mr. Byers, that Legislative 20 Proposal 39 was good for student athletes or bad or 21 student athletes. 22 MR. GRAND: 23 MR. NAGY: 24 THE WITNESS: 25 Objection. Vague. You can answer, sir. Well, it was a penalty against student athletes because there would be a process in Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 701 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page74 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 74 1 recruiting to judge the talent of the player and how 2 long you'd want to give him the grant-in-aid. 3 he's a super, super prospect, you're going to give him 4 four years. 5 play games, if you want, and take gamble between the one 6 and four years. 7 of that measure of his skill level and brought down to, 8 they're all one-year, buddy. 9 another one. 10 rule. 11 If he's mediocre, one year. And if Or you could So the athlete was immediately deprived You perform you'll get If you don't, you're out. And that's the BY MR. NAGY: 12 13 Q. That's the practical rule that was in effect. Was Legislative Proposal No. 39 necessary to promote amateurism? 14 A. No, it was not. 15 Q. Was Legislative Proposal No. 39 necessary to 16 promote competitive balance? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you believe, Mr. Buyers, that there was any 19 legitimate basis for the NCAA's decision to adopt 20 Legislative Proposal No. 39? 21 A. Well, the only legitimate basis was to eliminate 22 the cheating going on between those guys that were 23 trying to award four years or some mix of that and those 24 that just wanted to have one-year and none. 25 one-year people won and took control of the situation. Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560 And the 701 Case4:09-cv-01967-CW Document352-1 Filed09/07/11 Page75 of 95 WALTER BYERS, JULY 24, 2007 Page 75 1 Q. I'm a little -- I don't know about that. 2 you -- I'm sorry for everyone else sitting here. 3 I want you to bore me a little bit with those details. 4 5 6 I want When you say "eliminating the cheating," what cheating, sir, are you talking about? A. Well, it was in the book. They would leave. If 7 you're recruiting an athlete between Oklahoma and Texas 8 and he's a superstar, you're going to -- and if you're 9 from Oklahoma, you're going to tell that guy, you've got 10 a deal for the whole career. 11 that. 12 But they do whatever they -- necessary to guarantee that 13 guy whatever way it was, that you've got the deal and if 14 you get hurt, don't worry about it, you've got the full 15 four years, even though, the rule for Oklahoma was only 16 one-year at a time. 17 18 19 20 21 Q. The rule says he can't do Oklahoma's rules says you can only do one-year. I see. So the cheating would have been on rules that the institution, itself, had; is that right? A. That's correct. The institution subscribed to the rule, the coach didn't. Q. Was there -- actually, I think you've addressed 22 Esquire Deposition Services, LLC (800) 866-5560

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