O'Bannon, Jr. v. National Collegiate Athletic Association et al

Filing 233

Deposition Designations by Edward C. O'Bannon, Jr. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D, # 5 Exhibit E, # 6 Exhibit F, # 7 Exhibit G, # 8 Exhibit H, # 9 Exhibit I)(Bojedla, Swathi) (Filed on 6/20/2014) Modified on 6/23/2014 (kcS, COURT STAFF).

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EXHIBIT F Page 1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 5 6 IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE ) CASE NO. 7 NAME & LIKENESS LICENSING ) 4:09-cv-1967 CW (NC) 8 LITIGATION ) 9 10 11 12 13 The videotaped deposition upon oral 14 examination of WALLACE RENFRO, a witness produced 15 and sworn before me, Debbi S. Austin, RMR, CRR, 16 Notary Public in and for the County of Hendricks, 17 State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the 18 Plaintiffs, at the offices of Faegre Baker & 19 Daniels, 300 North Meridian Street, 27th Floor, 20 Indianapolis, Marion County, Indiana, on the 26th 21 day of June, 2012, commencing at 8:10 a.m., 22 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 23 with written notice as to time and place thereof. 24 25 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 9 5 Please state your full name for the record. 6 A Wallace I. Renfro. 7 Q And do you sometimes go by the nickname Wally? 8 A I do. 9 Q Do you have any other nicknames? 10 A No. 11 Q How old are you? 12 A I am 67 years old. 13 Q And what is your educational background? 14 A I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from Missouri 15 State University. 16 Q What was your major at Missouri State? 17 A English literature and American history. 18 Q Do you have any graduate degrees, sir? 19 A I do not have any graduate degrees. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 12 1 objections, but these objections don't excuse 2 you from answering my question. 3 Do you understand that? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q And if you need to take a break at any point, 6 just let me know. If we're in the middle of a 7 question, I'd just ask that you finish your 8 answer, but we can take a break at any time 9 today. 10 A Very good. 11 Q Oh, and whenever you get up, please remember to 12 take off your microphone. 13 We're all tethered here. 14 A I -- I will try to remember. 15 Q We'll try to remind you as well. 16 Are you taking any medication today that 17 might prevent you from understanding my 18 questions or answering them? 19 A No. Q Are you currently employed? 20 25 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 13 1 A I am. 2 Q By whom? 3 A By the National Collegiate Athletic Association. 4 Q And what is your title? 5 A My title is vice president and chief policy 6 7 advisor. Q I work in the office of the president. And I believe I've seen reference to you as 8 chief policy officer as well. 9 Is that your title? 10 A No, it is not. 11 Q Has that ever been your title? 12 A 16 Q For how long have you worked for the NCAA? 17 A I'm in my 40th year. 18 Q Congratulations. 19 A Thank you. 20 Q Does that make you the longest tenured employee 21 22 at the NCAA? A 23 It makes me the second longest, I believe. I am not the longest. 24 Q Who is the longest tenured employee at the NCAA? 25 A David Berst. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 14 4 Q have you worked with or for 5 each of the NCAA's executive directors or 6 presidents? 9 A Yes, I have. 10 There was a brief period of time, I should 11 note, when I was not employed by the NCAA, from 12 about the last day of June of 2002 until the 13 first day of January 2003, when I left the 14 employment of the association. 15 asked to come back and work with the new 16 president. 17 Q 18 Okay. And we can address that. And then was I'd like to ask you questions about the entire chronology here. 19 A Fine. 20 Q How many positions have you held during your 21 40-year tenure at the NCAA? 22 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 16 1 chief policy advisor. 2 That's pretty close. 3 I haven't tried to do that in a long time. 4 5 And let's talk for a moment about the break 6 7 in 2002 to 2003. A Did you retire? Because I had completed more than 20 years, the 8 term of art is -- is "retirement." I left to 9 enter into a -- a private business in media 10 training and messaging and hopefully for clients 11 in higher education. 12 Q And what prompted you to return to the NCAA? 13 A I was prompted to return by a request from then 14 incoming NCAA President Myles Brand who asked if 15 I would come back and serve in the role as 16 senior communication advisor to him. 17 Q And looking at your professional history, is 18 your expertise in public relations, messaging, 19 and communications? 21 A My expertise is -- is generally in terms of 22 public relations. 23 expertise in messaging. 24 it's -- it's in public relations. 25 Q I'm not sure there is an Generally speaking, And what are your current responsibilities? 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 17 1 A I work in the office of the president. I give 2 advice and counsel to the president, to the 3 chief operating officer, and to others with 4 regard to policy considerations that might be 5 developed or might be considered by the 6 membership and give thought and sometimes 7 writing to such policy considerations. 8 So generally speaking, it is a -- it's a -- 9 it's a role of a counselor, an advisor. I have 10 no managerial responsibilities. 11 not involved in the -- either the formulation, 12 the process of debate and discussion, and 13 certainly don't have a vote in any legislation, 14 nor do I have any role in the interpretation of 15 that legislation. 16 have no role in any legal considerations 17 involving the association or intercollegiate 18 athletics. 19 Q I'm certainly I'm not an attorney, so I You mentioned that you are not involved in the 20 process of debate and discussion around 21 legislation. 22 not discuss legislation with anyone at the NCAA? 23 MR. WIERENGA: 24 25 I take that to mean that you do Object -- objection to the extent -Q Is that correct? 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 18 1 MR. WIERENGA: 2 testimony. 3 4 -- that it misstates the Go ahead. A The debate and discussion of legislation is done 5 at the membership level, because it is at the 6 membership level that those decisions are made. 7 The staff may be involved in discussions of 8 proposed or potential legislation, but because 9 the NCAA staff officed in Indianapolis has no 10 vote, it is -- it is more of an intellectual 11 discussion. 12 Q 13 And when you say "staff" there, you're referring to NCAA staff? 14 A I am. 15 Q You mentioned among your responsibilities 16 providing counsel. 17 counsel? 18 A To whom do you provide To the president, to the chief operating 19 officer, to other vice presidents, or to other 20 staff on request regarding specific issues. 21 Q And who is the current president of the NCAA? 22 A Dr. Mark Emmert. 23 Q And who is the current chief operating officer? 24 A James Isch. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 19 4 Q 5 6 President Emmert? A 7 8 How frequently do you communicate with Weekly. Sometimes more often. Occasionally less often. Q 9 And how frequently do you communicate with Mr. Isch? 10 A Probably daily. 11 Q Do your responsibilities include anything 12 related to video games? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you in your current position draft any 15 written materials? 16 MR. WIERENGA: Object to the form. 17 Q I -- 18 A Could you be more specific? 19 Q I can. Do you in your current position draft 20 any written materials at the direction of 21 President Emmert or Mr. Isch? 22 MR. WIERENGA: 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 20 7 Q Can you provide me with examples of your -- 8 the -- the type of written work product that you 9 work on at the NCAA? 10 MR. WIERENGA: 11 Go ahead. 12 A Object to the form. I find as a lifelong writer that one of the 13 easiest ways for me to work through a thought 14 process regarding issues is to write. 15 way in which I can argue with myself and present 16 a rational argument to others for how an issue 17 might be considered from various perspectives. 18 It's the So very often the kind of writing I do 19 is -- is an examination of arguments related to 20 a -- a specific issue. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 27 1 Q 2 3 Have you ever had any contact with representatives from CLC? A 4 I have from time to time at various NCAA functions that were both attended. 5 Q Who have you had contact with from CLC? 6 A With -- with Bill Battle and with his son, Pat 7 8 Battle. Q 9 10 What's your understanding of the term "collegiate model"? A The collegiate model is a way in which American 11 higher education differentiates the 12 participation in athletics by its students from 13 other models, most prominently from a 14 professional model. 15 characterized by two very distinct pieces. 16 is that those who are participants are students, 17 and that intercollegiate athletics conduct is 18 embedded in the values of higher education 19 itself right. 20 Q The collegiate model is One What do you mean when you say "intercollegiate 21 athletics conduct is embedded in the values of 22 higher education"? 23 A Well, American higher education is somewhat 24 different from education elsewhere in the world, 25 in that most colleges and universities are 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 28 1 comprehensive in nature. 2 access to a variety of -- of disciplines. 3 those disciplines are subsidized and often 4 cross-subsidized by -- by other disciplines 5 within the -- the university, within the 6 academy. 7 They provide a -- give And That same approach is used with regard to 8 intercollegiate athletics. There is educational 9 value in the conduct of -- of intercollegiate 10 athletics. That, in fact, is the justification 11 for athletics as part of the higher education 12 model. 13 number of individuals, the number of students 14 who can be involved in -- in intercollegiate 15 athletics. And so the desire is to maximize the 16 To do that, institutions sponsor sports 17 across a broad range for both men and women. 18 Some of those sports have the capacity for 19 generating more interest and, therefore, more 20 resources than others, and there's a 21 cross-subsidization relationship between and 22 among those sports, very similar to the way in 23 which it's done elsewhere in higher education. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 29 1 2 MR. WIERENGA: Q -- to your knowledge? 3 MR. WIERENGA: 4 Go ahead. A 7 8 I'm unclear by what you mean by "who is responsible?" Q Did someone coin the term "collegiate model"? 9 10 Object to the form, foundation. 5 6 Object -- MR. WIERENGA: A Same objections. In my experience, the -- the first time that I 11 became aware of that term of art was with Myles 12 Brand. But I don't know that that did not 15 Q What does the term "amateurism" mean to you? 16 A Amateurism is a -- is a definition of the 17 relationship between those who participate and 18 the institution that sponsors intercollegiate 19 athletics. 20 there are certain educational, social, athletic 21 benefits to be derived from that participation. 22 And that those who participate, that is to say, 23 the students choose, make a choice to 24 participate in this model, and that sets those 25 individuals apart from athletes who participate 212-279-9424 It is one that understands that VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 30 1 2 in, for example, the professional model. Q 3 I'm trying to understand, how does the collegiate model differ from amateurism? 4 A Well, the -- 8 A The collegiate model, in fact, doesn't differ 9 from amateurism. It embraces amateurism, 10 because it describes this relationship between 11 those who participate and the institution that 12 sponsors the -- the sport. 13 relationship is one of being a student. 14 And that -- that Those who participate in intercollegiate 15 athletics are not employees of the institution, 16 and participating in athletics is -- is not 17 their job. 18 the -- the understanding, the definition within 19 higher education in America of -- of amateurism. 20 That's the -- that's -- so that's That concept is certainly different than 21 the notion of amateurism as it -- as it migrated 22 to the United States in the -- in the 19th 23 century. 24 practiced on the European continent was more a 25 class distinction and set apart those who could 212-279-9424 The notion of amateurism as it was VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 31 1 afford to participate, who could pay all their 2 expenses, who did not require any sort of 3 financial resource- -- resources to -- to 4 participate from those who could not. 5 and, in fact, it was -- it was a -- it was a way 6 for -- for the more wealthy to participate only 7 with the wealthy. 8 9 And -- The American culture was considerably more egalitarian, and that concept simply didn't work 10 in America. 11 that there is educational value to the 12 participation in athletics is -- is what sets 13 the -- the American and the collegiate model in 14 America apart from other models around the 15 world. 212-279-9424 But it -- but it -- but the notion VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 48 1 But the student-athletes do not. 2 And -- and the notion of amateurism is 3 confined to the student-athlete. 4 of acceptable professionalism applies to all 5 others. 6 exactly the way intercollegiate athletics began, 7 again, in the mid 19th century on American 8 campuses. 9 everything else along the way has -- has largely 10 11 And the notion That has always been the case. That is And -- and -- and, you know, been a matter of scale. Q You've given me a nice segue into a document 12 that I'm just about to show you. 13 do, are professional athletes victims of 21 Q But before I I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 418. 22 And I can represent to you that it's an internet 23 download of an article from the Chronicle of 24 Higher Education's website. 25 welcome to review the document in its entirety. 212-279-9424 And again, you're VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 49 1 The focus of my questions will be the quote from 2 you in the middle of the second page. 3 A Oh, I'm sorry, the middle of the second page. 4 I'm sorry, could you direct me more 5 specifically? 6 8 A 9 Are you referring to the quote that begins, "Commercialism is here to stay"? 10 Q Correct. 11 A "Student-athletes are amateurs. 12 Intercollegiate athletics is not." 13 Yes, I see the quote. 14 Q What's the distinction that you're drawing here? 17 A Well, the distinction I'm drawing is exactly the 18 one that I made a few minutes ago. 19 concept of amateurism describes the relationship 20 between the students who participate in 21 athletics and their institutions. 22 relationship of choice. 23 in -- that is described in terms of the benefits 24 received and the motivation to receive those 25 benefits. 212-279-9424 That the It is a It is a relationship And that that is distinctive from the VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 50 1 rest of the entity, the rest of intercollegiate 2 athletics. 3 Intercollegiate athletics is not an amateur 4 entity. The -- those who participate are 5 amateurs. 6 definition, nor am I aware of anyone -- of any 7 definition that would describe intercollegiate 8 athletics in a way that would suggest that it is 9 amateur other than that those who participate But -- but I've never seen a 10 are amateurs. 11 about the -- that distinction. 12 that is a distinction that is profoundly 13 apparent in the way in which the NCAA membership 14 has -- has described amateurism for over a 15 century now. 16 Q 17 18 And I think that Intercollegiate athletics is not an amateur endeavor. A That's -- that's what I meant Is it a professional endeavor? Those who are coaches, administrators, and 19 others, are professional by nature, by 20 definition, because they are paid to be that, to 21 be a coach, to be an administrator. 22 Intercollegiate athletics is, I think, in 23 the minds of most who would examine this, not 24 the same as a professional sports organization. 25 But that does not mean that it does not seek 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 51 1 revenue, for example, to cover the costs of a 2 particular sport, and in some cases, most cases, 3 to cover the costs of -- of the university 4 providing participation opportunities in other 5 sports and over a broad number of men and -- and 6 women students. 7 So, you know, in a -- in a commonly 8 understood definition, intercollegiate athletics 9 would -- would not, in the minds of most, in my 10 opinion, be seen as the same as a professional 11 sports organization. 12 that are similar. It has characteristics 13 Q What are those similar characteristics? 14 A Those -- 15 MR. WIERENGA: 16 answered. 17 18 Objection, asked and But go ahead. A Yeah. I -- I think I -- I think I really 19 answered that -- that question pretty 20 thoroughly. 21 Q Okay. In your experience, does the public 22 understand the distinction that you're drawing 23 here in the middle of the page? 24 MR. WIERENGA: 212-279-9424 Object to the form, VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 57 1 2 championship, NCAA women's championship? A I don't. It's just not an area of -- of my 3 attention or expertise. 4 focus. 5 (Deposition Exhibit 419 marked for 6 7 Focus, I should say, my identification.) Q I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 419, 8 Bates stamped -- are you familiar -- do you know 9 what I -- I mean when I say "Bates stamp"? We 10 have a -- a lawyerly convention of numbering 11 documents using a number in the lower right-hand 12 corner. 13 MR. WIERENGA: Those numbers. 14 A Okay. 15 Q We -- we may refer to it from time to time to -- 16 A 18 I'm handing you Exhibit 419, which is Bates 19 stamped NCAAPROD00180245 to 248. 20 moment to review that document. 21 MR. CURTNER: 22 MR. WIERENGA: 23 24 Q Please take a What are we calling this? 419. And as always, you're welcome to review the entire document. 212-279-9424 My -- my questions will focus VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 58 9 Q 10 11 Can you identify this as an e-mail that you sent a number of NCAA employees on August 31st, 2005? A 12 That's what it says at the top, so yes, I think that's correct. 13 Q You have no reason to doubt this? 14 A I have no reason to doubt that. 15 Q And you write, "I know I have been such an 16 infrequent voice in this discussion, so I have 17 hesitated to comment now, but I'm not bothered 18 by the answer provided. 19 bothered that within the 25 percent space, the 20 images can change as the cursor passes over a 21 smaller image. 22 added, just expanded. 23 sponsors making money. 24 would associate with us or our schools if they 25 can't." 212-279-9424 I'm -- I'm also not There is nothing new being Basically I'm for I don't see why they VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 59 1 A Yes, I see that. 2 Q Are you still for sponsors making money? 3 A Sure, I am. 4 Q Has your position changed at all in the last 5 seven years? 6 A With regard to the sponsors making money? 7 Q Whether you're for sponsors making money. 8 A No, my -- my view on that has not changed. 9 I -- I'm -- I am -- I'm a believer in the 10 capitalistic approach, and -- and I believe that 11 businesses are generally in business, including 12 not-for-profit businesses, to make money. 13 they do that can differ between for-profit and 14 not-for-profit. 15 Q Why And earlier you testified that NCAA corporate 16 sponsors partner with the NCAA for a host of 17 reasons. 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Is that fair? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Here you write, "I don't see why they" -- are 22 23 you referring to the sponsors there? A Yes, I believe I am, yes. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 60 4 Q Why didn't you identify here some of the 5 benefits that we've been discussing earlier 6 today? 7 A Well, I thought that's the question that you 8 would ask when you -- when you showed this to 9 me, because it would strike any reader on first 10 glance as being somewhat inconsistent with what 11 I just said. 12 time to time, I, in writing, will make argument 13 for effect. I don't think that it is. From 14 Generally speaking, I think that any 15 business, anywhere in the world, but certainly 16 American corporations, exist for the purpose of 17 selling a product or -- or a service. 18 seems not only reasonable to me but what we 19 would expect from a capitalistic approach for -- 20 for corporations to make decisions that they 21 believe would be beneficial financially. 22 And so it Even as I describe what I described a 23 moment ago, with regard to what the returns are, 24 I think that even then there's an expectation 25 that the goodwill that they gain from an 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 61 1 association with a highly valued entity will, in 2 fact, mean an increase in revenue. 3 that's certainly, I believe, their hope. That's -- 4 I believe that they are driven, as you 5 describe it, by a number of different factors to 6 this association. 7 are associated with intercollegiate athletics, I 8 tend to believe that their interest would be 9 less based on goodwill and -- and more solely But without the values that 10 based on simply a financial return on 11 investment. 12 And at the same time, as I said, you know, 13 I will from time to time make a provocative 14 argument for the sake of engendering discussion. 15 I don't remember whether this was successful in 16 that regard or -- or not. 17 that there is an incon- -- a philosophical 18 inconsistence -- inconsistency between what I 19 said a moment ago and what is written here. 20 think that it is, you know, a -- a perfectly 21 reasonable correlation. 22 Q But I don't believe I And you mentioned that you from time to time 23 write for effect, sometimes with the intent 24 of -- of provocation. 212-279-9424 But you don't mean to VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 62 1 2 somehow insincere, do you? A 3 No, I don't mean that they are insincere. But I don't believe that the provocative necessarily 5 Q Do you stand by what you wrote here? 6 A I do. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 74 1 settings for a considerably long time and -- and 2 continue to use these arguments or variations 3 of -- of them in discussions about pay for play, 4 not from a perspective of rules or bylaws or 5 from a legal perspective, but from an 6 intellectual discussion of play for -- pay for 7 play as a concept. 8 Q Did you draft this material? 9 A I do not believe I did. I believe this material 10 was drafted by Gary Brown, as he describes it, 11 based on conversations with me and others. 12 Q That Gary Brown drafted in 2003? 13 Mr. Brown writes, "I'm attaching a 14 point/counterpoint ... that Myles, Wally, and 15 others helped the news compile in 2003." 16 17 MR. WIERENGA: Q 18 19 So the question is? Do you understand Mr. Brown to have drafted the pay for play counterpoint materials here? A It's my understanding that he drafted them. 20 I -- I don't know what the date was when he 21 drafted them. 22 enough that I can't tell you whether I think it 24 25 Q The -- the language is just vague In the third full paragraph under pay for play point/counterpoint, it's written, "Most athletic 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 75 1 departments do not generate revenues over 2 expenses." 3 4 Do you agree with that statement? A I do. And indeed, the number that is provided, 5 whatever the date of this writing, he describes 6 there are only 40 Division I-A institutions. 7 Today those would be what we identify as 8 football bowl subdivision or FBS institutions, 9 and -- and that number is lower by almost half. 10 Q So if I understand you correctly, approximately 11 20 Division I-A institutions and their current 12 equivalent operate in the black today; is that 13 correct? 14 104a 802 A Operate with revenues that exceed expenses. 15 Q Do you know sitting here today on average the 16 percentage of Division I athletic department 17 revenue that goes to facilities' construction or 18 improvements? 19 A As we sit here today, I do not. 20 Q Do you recall stating in a speech at Washington 21 and Lee University in June 2009, "Today, nearly 22 20 percent of the average spending in Division I 23 athletics is tied to facility expansion and the 24 debt service that results"? 25 A I do recall those numbers in -- in that speech 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 76 104a 802 1 based on data that I had asked for and -- and 2 received. 3 in saying today in that speech, because the data 4 probably was -- predated the giving of the 5 speech. 6 Q I cannot tell you that I was accurate Do you have any reason to doubt that that -- 7 that the nearly 20 percent figure was accurate 8 within six months of the date of your speech? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Do you know sitting here today what the number 11 is? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Do you know on average the percentage of 14 department -- Division I athletic department 15 revenue that goes to coaching salaries? 18 A I do not. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 79 1 half of programs that generate revenues over 2 expenses. 3 Q I'm trying to draw a distinction here between 4 athletic departments and men's Division I 5 basketball and football programs in particular. 6 104a 602 7 Q Sure. Do you agree that many Division I men's 8 football and basketball programs generate 9 revenues over expenses? 12 A Again, I'm -- I'm -- I'm not sure what you mean 13 by -- by "many." You mean -- you may mean 14 almost all. 15 That's a pretty significant difference. You may mean more than half. 16 Q Okay. 18 A More than ten institutions or more than 19 20 More than ten? 10 percent? Q More than -- do you agree that more than ten 21 Division I men's football and basketball 22 athletic programs generate revenue over 23 expenses? 24 A I wouldn't be surprised. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 80 104a 602 1 Q But you have no knowledge one way or another of 2 how many Division I men's football and 3 basketball programs generate revenue over 4 expenses? 5 A Well, it's my general understanding that 6 approximately 70 percent of Division I FBS 7 institutions generate only in that sport 8 revenues that exceed the expenses of that sport. 9 And that number in men's basketball is 10 11 approximately 60 percent. Q What does pay for play mean? 12 MR. WIERENGA: Object to the form. 13 A As defined by whom? 14 Q By you. 15 A I understand pay for play to be the professional 16 model of -- of salaried remuneration for 17 athletics participation. 18 Q I hate to get too fine here, but is -- does 19 unsalaried remuneration for athletic 20 participation also fall within your definition 21 of pay for play? 22 MR. WIERENGA: Object to the form. 23 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 81 104a 602 (only if NCAA 104a and 602 objections are acceptedotherwise Plaintiffs agree to admit) 4 Q Would -- to your knowledge, would remunerating 5 players for their participation in 6 intercollegiate athletics diminish public 7 interest in college sports? 11 A Well, based on 40 years of -- of observation and 12 examination of what makes intercollegiate 13 athletics popular, I hold the view that if you 14 change the collegiate model into one that 15 attaches the student-athlete as -- as a 16 professional to the model, joining those others 17 who are professional, that in -- that in -- in 18 my view, that would diminish the -- the way in 19 which intercollegiate athletics is viewed, 20 appreciated, admired, loved by -- by the public. 21 The relationship of the student, the sport, 22 and the institution constitutes a phenomenon 23 that is held valuable by those who attend and 24 those who help sponsor the -- the broadcast 25 or -- you know, or in other ways support 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 82 104a 602 (only if NCAA 104a and 602 objections are acceptedotherwise Plaintiffs agree to admit) 1 intercollegiate athletics. 2 And, you know, again, based on my 3 observation over a lengthy career, I think that 4 turning intercollegiate athletics into second- 5 or third-rate professional sports would -- would 6 diminish the interest. 7 The level at which those who participate in 8 athletics in terms of their skills and their 9 purpose is not on par with what you would expect 10 from professional athletes. 11 athletes, playing sports is their job. 12 student-athletes, it is not. 212-279-9424 For professional VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com For 212-490-3430 Page 84 104a 602 17 To your knowledge, would paying former 18 student-athletes for their previous 19 participation in intercollegiate athletics 20 diminish public interest in college sports? 22 A I have no way of -- of knowing the answer to 23 that. 24 thought to. 25 Q It's not one that I've even given much Has the NCAA studied that question to your 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 85 104a 602 1 knowledge? 2 A Not to my knowledge. 3 Q And you're not aware of any surveys concerning 4 that question, are you? 5 A I personally am not. 6 Q I understand that there have been considerable 7 discussion at the NCAA with its members about 8 the possibility of a stipend for 9 student-athletes above and beyond the 10 grant-in-aid. 11 Is that a fair characterization? 12 MR. WIERENGA: 13 foundation, relevance. 14 15 Object to the form, Go ahead. A I did -- I believe the characterization is 16 inaccurate. 17 understood that to be considered a -- a stipend. 18 It is money that would cover the uncovered 19 additional costs between the current scholarship 212-279-9424 It is -- at no point have I VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 88 1 Q 2 Forgive me. I think there is a tense issue. While they were a student-athlete? 3 MR. WIERENGA: Well, now I object, vague. 4 I'm still -- I don't understand how you can pay 5 a former student-athlete while they're -- 6 MR. GOSSELIN: Well -- 7 MR. WIERENGA: -- a student-athlete. 8 MR. GOSSELIN: -- we -- we don't need your 9 testimony. 10 MR. WIERENGA: 11 12 104a 602 No, but that's my objection to the question. Q Let me rephrase my question. 16 To your knowledge, would paying former 17 college athletes after their eligibility expires 18 for the use of their likeness while they were 19 student-athletes diminish public interest in 20 college sports? 23 A 24 25 I have no way of -- of knowing the answer to that question. Q And this, too, is not something that the NCAA 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 89 104a 602 1 has studied to your knowledge? 2 A Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q Similarly, you're not aware of any surveys 4 5 addressing this question, are you? A I am not. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 109 1 task force may have furnished to committee 2 liaisons about how and when to distribute 3 documents to best protect them? 4 A Your question is? 5 Q Do you have any recollection of guidance 6 provided by the open -- 7 A No. 8 Q -- records task force -- 9 A No. 10 Q -- in this respect? 11 Do you know if the NCAA notified state 12 attorneys general about the work of the open 13 records task force? 14 A I do not know. 15 Q Do you know if the NCAA notified the presidents 16 19 of public universities about the work of the Q 20 21 Let's talk for a moment about President Byers. You worked for Mr. Byers; correct? A I worked for the NCAA when Mr. Byers was the 22 executive director, but I did not work for him 23 in the same way that I have worked for the last 24 two presidents of the NCAA. 25 of the office of the president. 212-279-9424 I was not a member VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 110 1 Q 2 Did you have any contact with President Byers while he was executive director? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And what was the nature of that contact? 5 A Generally informal in the hall conversations. 6 did work with him on a couple publishing 7 I projects for public consumption. 8 Q 9 10 And President Byers coined the term "student-athlete"; correct? A I don't -- I don't know with certainty that -- 11 that he did. 12 to him. 13 him myself, but I can't tell you with absolute 14 certainty that that's the case. 15 was during his period of time as executive 16 director that the -- that the term sort of came 17 to the forefront. 18 Q I think it is generally attributed I probably have even attributed it to It certainly Do you recall stating in a speech at Washington 19 and Lee University in 2009, "To be honest, the 20 term 'student-athlete' was the invention of the 21 first president of the NCAA, Walter Byers, who 22 used the term to mollify the media and others 23 when some college athletes began to receive 24 grants-in-aid to participate in sports"? 25 A Yes, that's -- that's exactly the kind of 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 111 1 attribution that I was alluding to in my 2 previous question -- or answer. 3 Q 4 So you have no reason to recant this earlier statement? 5 A I do not. 6 Q And are you aware that President Byers has 7 stated that the term was created because of 8 concerns that the grant-in-aid might create an 9 employee-employer relationship? 12 A I don't know what -- I don't know that with -- 13 with certainty. I have -- as you read in that 14 speech, I have described it as I did there. 15 Q Have you read President Byers' book? 16 A I have not. I -- I have read very small 17 portions of it from time to time, but I have not 18 read the book. 19 Q Are you in contact with President Byers today? 20 A I am not. 21 Q When was the last time, if you can recall, that 22 23 24 you communicated with -- with President Byers? A In person, 1988. Sometime after that, but with no specific recall, by voice mail when there was 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 112 1 a -- I had a telephone number that I wasn't even 2 certain was his, reached out, left a voice mail. 3 He left me a voice mail indicating that he was 4 not interested in speaking to the reporter. 5 Q And roughly what year was that? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q 12 Q What were your impressions of President Byers 13 during the period of overlap between the two of 14 you at the NCAA? 16 A My impression of him in what regard? 17 Q Do you -- did you respect him? 18 A I did. 19 Q Did you respect his accomplishments at the NCAA? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And earlier you made a reference to the NCAA's 23 move, I believe it's from Kansas City, to 24 Indianapolis -- 25 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 118 1 earlier, values driven, decision-making task 2 force, attempted to reduce the concept of those 3 principles and to articulate them in a fewer 4 number. 5 you a moment ago. And -- and they are what I described to 6 Q And which task force are you referring to? 7 A In a previous document that you shared with me 8 just before our break, you'll recall that -- 9 that it was a summary report of some 15 10 different task forces. 13 One of those was the one Do the NCAA and its member institutions 14 have -- share commonly held principles outside 15 of those enumerated in the manual? 17 A I don't -- I don't know. If they -- if they 18 share commonly held values beyond those, they've 19 not been memorialized to -- that -- that I'm 20 aware of. 21 Q 22 Is the prohibition against pay for play a commonly held principle, a rule, or both? 23 A Both. 24 Q I want to talk a little bit about 25 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 119 1 President Emmert when he was a candidate for his 2 current position? 3 4 MR. WIERENGA: A I did not. Object to the form. The interviewing is exclusively done 5 by the membership through its executive 6 committee. 7 Q Did you -- were you introduced to 8 President Emmert as part of his candidacy for -- 9 for this position? 10 MR. WIERENGA: 11 A Object to the form. I was a liaison to the executive committee in 12 its role as the search committee for the -- for 13 the president. 17 Q 18 19 And can you remind me when President Emmert began in his current position? A He -- he was hired by, confirmed by the ex- -- 20 the executive committee in April of 2010, but 21 did not become an actual employee and assume the 22 position until early October of -- of that year. 23 I don't recall the date precisely. 24 25 Q And did you begin working with President Emmert right away, or was there a delay? 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 120 1 A Well, I -- I was -- I had been a member of the 2 office of the president prior to his coming in, 3 both with Dr. Brand and then with interim 4 president Jim Isch. 5 I continued throughout to be a member of the 6 office of the president. 7 which there were opportunities for the office of 8 the president to interact with the president 9 elect, I -- I did. 212-279-9424 And my role did not change. And so the degree to I was part of that. VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 122 1 2 opportunities for fulfilling the mission. Q 3 4 And in providing advice, do you draw on your 40-year tenure at the NCAA? A I do. 5 7 (Deposition Exhibit 424 marked for Q 8 I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 424, Bates stamped NCAAPROD00148806 to 810. 9 MR. GOSSELIN: I can tell all counsel 10 that -- I take that back. 11 perhaps this had been used as a past exhibit. 12 Now I don't believe that's the case. 13 Q I -- I thought But I can represent to you, Mr. Renfro, that the 14 NCAA did not for whatever reason produce the 15 next to last e-mail -- 16 MR. SLAUGHTER: 17 MR. GOSSELIN: 18 Q Sathya -Yeah, one second. -- the next to last e-mail in this chain. We 19 only have this one, so we're going to talk from 20 the first paragraph down. 21 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 124 1 Q First, can you identify everything below the 2 first e-mail header as an e-mail that you sent 3 to President Emmert -- maybe it's easiest if we 4 do this, from the -- I guess what's the third 5 e-mail below. 6 of the page downward as an e-mail that you sent 7 on October 17th, 2010, at 12:12 p.m. to Mark 8 Emmert and Jim Isch? Can you identify from the middle 9 A Yes. 10 Q And when was the last time that you saw this 11 document? 12 A In all likelihood on October 17th. 13 Q If you look at the -- does -- does the first 14 paragraph refresh your recollection of why you 15 sent this e-mail with the subject line "Looking 16 Forward"? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Why did you send this e-mail? 19 A This was an effort by me to give some advice, 20 some counsel, some thought to a fairly 21 significant range of -- of topics, some of which 22 I had probably already heard Dr. Emmert speak 23 about, some of which I anticipated would 24 likely -- likely come up. 25 certainly in the -- you know, the result of 212-279-9424 Some of them were VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 125 1 issues du jour, things that were right out in 2 front of us and very obviously so. 3 Q 4 5 And -- and did you intend this to be a full and frank discussion? A It is nothing more than my observations on -- on 6 these topics and, within certain parameters, 7 some -- some -- some advice. 8 know, my -- my recollection is that, in fact, I 9 don't believe we ever really had a -- a full 10 11 It was -- you discussion on this document. Q That was going to be my next question before we 12 start looking at various portions. 13 received a written response from 14 You never President Emmert; is that correct? 15 A I don't believe so. 16 Q And do you -- 17 A It -- 18 Q -- recall -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to 19 20 interrupt. A Well, it wasn't intended necessarily to -- you 21 know, to -- in expectation of a response. 22 was really just what it -- what it -- what it 23 is. 24 Q It Do you recall any meeting with President Emmert 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 126 3 Q 4 And if you look under "Stu-" -- the second page, there's a header, "Student-Athlete Well-Being." 5 A Yes. 6 Q In the middle of that paragraph, you write, 7 "Maybe we don't call them student-athletes any 8 longer and just refer to them as students. 9 (It's a term that Walter Byers created to 10 counter the criticism that we are paying college 11 athletes when we began providing 12 grants-in-aid.)" 13 Have you made this particular proposal to 14 16 anyone else at the NCAA? A I don't recall whether I -- whether I have or -- 17 or not. 18 that -- that in the very first paragraph, in the 19 last sentence of that paragraph, I said that 20 "I've given thought to all this and have tried 21 below to begin teasing out some thoughts that 22 might be further developed. 23 provocative, some probably not provocative 24 enough." 25 Let me just go back and -- and remind Some of this is So -- so almost always -- you know, this 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 127 1 was simply to inform Dr. Emmert of some of my 2 views, some of them that were mature, some of 3 them that probably weren't very mature. 4 tell you that this is one that I would certainly 5 characterize as not very mature. 6 it was a thought. 7 but I'm not sure that -- I -- I hadn't given a 8 lot of -- of thought to it, and -- and I don't 9 believe -- I don't recall that we ever discussed 10 11 I can I had -- it -- It was sort of intriguing, it again. Q Does -- does reading this refresh your 12 recollection that -- and I'm quoting -- "Walter 13 Byers created the term" -- my brackets -- "the 14 term 'student-athlete' to counter the criticism 15 that we were paying college athletes when we 16 began providing grants-in-aid"? 17 18 MR. WIERENGA: A Objection, foundation. I'm not exactly sure what the question is that 19 you're asking. 20 had -- in a speech at Washington and Lee, had 21 made reference to an attribution to Walter about 22 the creation of the term "student-athletes" and 23 an attribution as to -- as to why. 24 I have testified earlier that I So in terms of refreshing my memory, I'm 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 128 14 Q 15 If you look farther down the page, under the header "Time Requirements." 16 A Yes. 17 Q And I'll read from it briefly. "We know from a 18 couple of surveys we have done (one with current 19 student-athletes, which was first done about 20 four or five years ago that I think has been 21 updated), and one with students ten years out of 22 high school that student-ath-" -- 23 A Wait a minute. 24 25 MR. WIERENGA: Where are you? A 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 129 7 -- "and one with students ten years out of - 8 high school), that student-athletes spend as 9 much as 45 hours a week on their sport, more 10 they say in some cases than their academics." 11 Do you recall sitting here today which 12 13 surveys you're referring to here? A The two that I were referring to are -- I -- 14 I -- I can only identify by -- by acronym. 15 is called SCORE, or SCORES. 16 called GOALS. 17 student-ath- -- well, as this says, 18 student-athletes who had been out of high school 19 for ten years, and the other was a current 20 student-athlete. 21 recall, was with current student-athletes. 22 Q 23 One And the other is One has -- one was a survey of The larger sampling, as I Do you know if those materials are publicly available? 24 A I do not know. 25 Q And do you know who conducted these surveys? 212-279-9424 I don't know the answer to that. VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 130 1 A Well, I believe they were under -- they were 2 conducted under the auspices of our research 3 staff. 4 The ones for current student-athletes, I can 5 only imagine, were conducted on campus by 6 individuals on campus. 16 Q I do not know who conducted the surveys. You write further down in this paragraph, "We 17 have a wink and a nod approach to voluntary 18 activity." 19 21 What is a wink and a nod approach? A I think that that's a -- a -- a term of art that 22 most everyone when they read it understands that 23 it is imprecise, that it -- it does not 24 necessarily -- that there is not necessarily 25 100 percent compliance. 212-279-9424 Most everyone knows VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 131 1 there's not 100 percent compliance. 2 it -- it, like some other circumstances in 3 various other areas, is not viewed as being one 4 that you know how to achieve full enforcement. 5 But it -- I -- I can expand on that, if you wish, to 6 say, if I am a student-athlete or if I am a 7 musician or if am in theater, you know, a 8 thespian, or any number of other areas, my 9 voluntary commitment to that activity is 10 difficult to ever govern. 11 So we have a 20-hour rule for organized 12 activity, and that we ask the in- -- is my 13 understanding, we ask institutions to confirm 14 that that's -- that they comply with that. 15 in terms of voluntary activity, it's far more 16 difficult to ever know and, therefore, enforce 17 what -- what time students are putting into any 18 number of different activities. 19 Q And you mentioned a few examples. But Does the NCAA 20 govern theater, music -- music or theater 21 activities? 23 A It does not govern those activities, but those 24 activities are similar to -- are part of the way 25 in which activities in the collegiate model 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 132 1 function. 2 athletics often, I would say even generally, 3 have some relationship to the way things are 4 conducted elsewhere on campus. 5 Q So activities in intercollegiate Do you recall whether the two surveys that 6 you've identified today provided statistics 7 about the compliance rate, the time requirement 8 compliance rate of the students surveyed? 9 A I do not recall. 10 Q Look at the bottom paragraph on that page. You 11 wrote under "Commercial Exploitation," and you 12 skip ahead one sentence. 13 sense that intercollegiate athletics is as 14 thoroughly commercialized as professional 15 sports." 16 Whose general sense are you referring to 17 18 "There is a general there? A The -- the world, the public, that -- and -- and 19 I don't even state it as -- I don't intend to 20 state it as a matter of fact or a provable fact. 21 Only that if one reads the media and relies on 22 that to be some sort of metric for public 23 opinion, one might draw from that that there is 24 this general sense. 25 Q Are you suggesting that the media has somehow 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 133 1 incorrectly reported that the public views 2 intercollegiate athletics as thoroughly 3 commercialized? 7 A 104a 802 Actually, what I am suggesting is that the 8 media -- media has incorrectly suggested that 9 intercollegiate athletics is thoroughly 10 11 commercialized as professional sports. Q Let's continue on. You write, "Some believe 12 that athletic departments study how to emulate 13 the pros on marketing their sports, primarily 14 football and basketball, and sometimes lead the 15 way." 16 To your knowledge, do any college athletic 17 departments study how to emulate the pros on 18 marketing their sports? 19 A Well, that was not the point of the sentence. 20 The point of the sentence was that there are 21 some who believe that that -- that that occurs. 22 I would not know the answer to the question that 23 you asked. 24 25 Q So you haven't discussed this with any athletic directors? 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 134 1 A No. 2 Q And I'm continuing on. 3 4 "And the public would 104a 802 generally," I -- I believe -A Typo. 5 6 -- "generally agree that all -- that has - 7 all taken place at the expense of the 8 student-athlete whose participation is excluded 9 to make another buck for another stadium, the 10 coaches, the administrators, or for other teams 11 who can't pay their own way. 12 continuing on to the next page -- "a fairness 13 issue and along with the notion that 14 student-athletes are students is the great 15 hypocrisy of intercollegiate athletics." 16 What do you mean by "the great hypocrisy of 17 19 It is" -- intercollegiate athletics"? A Again, remember that I am talking about the 20 opinion of some. 21 believe that athletics departments and -- and so 22 on and so forth. 23 thought in a provocatively stated way that some 24 believe this is the state of -- of 25 intercollegiate athletics. 212-279-9424 So this is all based upon some So this is a continuation of I don't -- I don't VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 135 1 try to -- to des- -- to describe in this nor 2 would I know how to describe how many are 3 "some." 4 writings some of in the media who -- who, in 5 fact, use terms much like or exactly like the 6 terms that I have used -- used here. 7 way to, as bluntly and as provocatively as I 8 could, sort of state the view of those who are 9 the most critical and cynical of intercollegiate 10 11 104a 802 But I certainly have encountered the This was a athletics. Q And so if I understand you correctly, you're 12 channeling the media, in a sense, when you 13 write, "The great hypocrisy of intercollegiate 14 athletics"? 16 A Yeah. I wouldn't agree with the term of art 17 that you used. 18 it's in my power to channel anyone. 19 representing what it's my understanding through 20 media readings is the opinion of some. 21 Q Okay. I don't -- certainly don't think But I'm And if we go down the page to the next 22 bullet point, "Professional Exploitation 23 (Agents)," you write, "We have always had a 24 cradle-to-grave approach to amateurism. 25 104a 802 born an amateur, but like innocence once lost, 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com You are 212-490-3430 Page 136 1 it cannot be regained. But our commitment to 2 amateurism and the commitment of our public's 3 has often been based on something other than how 4 we define amateurism in our own constitution. 5 In the most romantic sense, we think of 6 amateurism as playing sports for the love of the 7 game, for the camaraderie among competitors, for 8 the pride of victory for school or colors, and 9 then we use this romanticized sense of 10 amateurism to define the entire enterprise of 11 104a 802 collegiate athletics." 12 Do you see that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q Now, you wrote this in 2010. 15 A Yes. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 137 1 use to suggest it isn't based on fact. 2 based more on emotional or, you know, some sort 3 of visceral sense of intercollegiate athletics. 4 It's And -- and so this is a -- this was written 5 as a way to -- to sort of describe how 6 amateurism has a narrow meaning within the 7 constitution but is applied broadly and, in my 8 estimation, far too broadly to the entirety of 9 intercollegiate athletics. And that's a -- 10 that's a point I -- I made earlier this morning. 11 And you will recall that there was something 12 that you had provided that I had written about 13 student-athletes or amateurs, intercollegiate 15 Q And if I understand you correctly, this excerpt 16 that we've read here is anoth- -- is another 17 attempt, for lack of a better term -- I'm 18 certainly open to others -- to channel others 19 who may be critical of the NCAA; is that 20 correct? 21 A It's an ability to articulate the opinion as I 22 understand it of -- of others. I simply -- I 23 don't know what you mean by "channel." 24 Q Well -- 25 A But it is -- it is an effort to -- to try to -- 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 138 1 in a very provocative, blunt way, to -- you 2 know, to -- to sort of establish the -- the view 3 of -- of -- of some without any determination of 4 how many those are who are critics, who are 5 cynics, and who have a platform to express their 6 criticism or cynicism. 7 Q And do you, Mr. Renfro, as Mr. Renfro, agree 8 with the statement that begins, "You are born an 9 amateur" and ends with, "to define the entire 10 12 enterprise of intercollegiate athletics"? A 13 14 Do you mean is this my personally held view? It is not. Q Okay. You write at the bottom of that 15 paragraph, "We, and you will have to lead the 16 charge, must do a better job of helping put 17 these concepts into perspective, and we are 18 best-served in that effort by doing so within 19 the context of higher education. 20 for student-athletes to have agents. 21 avocational nature of student-athletics 22 participation prohibits the gathering of 23 monetary benefits in such a relationship." 24 25 It may be okay The Is this a suggestion by you as Mr. Renfro that it may be okay for student-athletes to have 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 139 1 2 agents? A It wasn't a suggestion. It was an observation. 3 But the observation, if it were to be 4 considered, offers a codicil. 5 Q And how would this arrangement work such that 6 there are no -- there is no gathering of 7 monetary benefits? 11 A 12 13 And it -- and it really doesn't fall to me to figure that out. Q 14 And you don't recall ever receiving any feedback from President Emmert about this -- 15 A I do not. 16 Q -- observation? 17 If we continue on to the next page. 18 Under "Financial Underpinning of Athletics" -- 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q 104a -- in the middle of that paragraph, you write, 21 "The top 25 percent of Division I is setting the 22 spending pace for the rest of the division, 23 although the bottom 25 has largely stopped 24 trying to compete and is content with the 25 prestige that comes with being in the same 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430 Page 140 1 neighborhood. 2 the middle 50 percent. 3 4 104a are the haves, the have-nots, and the forget-about-its." 5 The real issue appears to be in So what we really see Do you see that comment? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Now, when you write, "the top 25 percent," are 8 you referring to the top 25 percent in terms of 9 revenue over expenses? 11 A I'm probably -- no, I'm definitely not. I'm 12 probably referring to the top 25 percent in 13 terms of athletics budget. 14 Q And that's overall -- 15 A A budget is an estimation or a -- a goal for 16 what you will spend. 17 Q And are those annual budgets? 18 A Yes, that was the thought I had in mind. 19 22 I'm sorry. Q So if I have this correctly, you're -- you're 23 referring to the top 25 percent as the haves, 24 the middle 50 percent as the have-nots, and the 25 bottom 25 percent as the forget-about-its. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com Can 212-490-3430 Page 141 104a 1 you give me examples of -- of universities that 2 fall into each of those categories? 5 A The intent of this was not, in fact, to identify 6 specific institutions. 7 budgets are of -- of institutions. 8 at aggregated numbers and at the median or 9 average of -- of those aggregated numbers. 14 Q I don't know what the I only look And in your experience, the -- are the 15 forget-about-its able to compete effectively 16 with the haves? 18 A I think that, in fact, the sentence above that 19 says that "The bottom 25 has largely stopped 20 trying to compete and is content with the 21 prestige that comes with being in the same 22 neighborhood." 23 So I -- so I think I had -- I had already h ad ha 24 said in this paragraph that they likely were not 25 competing with the top 25. 212-279-9424 VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY www.veritext.com 212-490-3430

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