O'Bannon, Jr. v. National Collegiate Athletic Association et al
Filing
233
Deposition Designations by Edward C. O'Bannon, Jr. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A, # 2 Exhibit B, # 3 Exhibit C, # 4 Exhibit D, # 5 Exhibit E, # 6 Exhibit F, # 7 Exhibit G, # 8 Exhibit H, # 9 Exhibit I)(Bojedla, Swathi) (Filed on 6/20/2014) Modified on 6/23/2014 (kcS, COURT STAFF).
EXHIBIT F
Page 1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
3
4
5
6
IN RE NCAA STUDENT-ATHLETE
) CASE NO.
7
NAME & LIKENESS LICENSING
) 4:09-cv-1967 CW (NC)
8
LITIGATION
)
9
10
11
12
13
The videotaped deposition upon oral
14
examination of WALLACE RENFRO, a witness produced
15
and sworn before me, Debbi S. Austin, RMR, CRR,
16
Notary Public in and for the County of Hendricks,
17
State of Indiana, taken on behalf of the
18
Plaintiffs, at the offices of Faegre Baker &
19
Daniels, 300 North Meridian Street, 27th Floor,
20
Indianapolis, Marion County, Indiana, on the 26th
21
day of June, 2012, commencing at 8:10 a.m.,
22
pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure
23
with written notice as to time and place thereof.
24
25
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 9
5
Please state your full name for the record.
6
A
Wallace I. Renfro.
7
Q
And do you sometimes go by the nickname Wally?
8
A
I do.
9
Q
Do you have any other nicknames?
10
A
No.
11
Q
How old are you?
12
A
I am 67 years old.
13
Q
And what is your educational background?
14
A
I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from Missouri
15
State University.
16
Q
What was your major at Missouri State?
17
A
English literature and American history.
18
Q
Do you have any graduate degrees, sir?
19
A
I do not have any graduate degrees.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 12
1
objections, but these objections don't excuse
2
you from answering my question.
3
Do you understand that?
4
A
Yes, I do.
5
Q
And if you need to take a break at any point,
6
just let me know.
If we're in the middle of a
7
question, I'd just ask that you finish your
8
answer, but we can take a break at any time
9
today.
10
A
Very good.
11
Q
Oh, and whenever you get up, please remember to
12
take off your microphone.
13
We're all tethered
here.
14
A
I -- I will try to remember.
15
Q
We'll try to remind you as well.
16
Are you taking any medication today that
17
might prevent you from understanding my
18
questions or answering them?
19
A
No.
Q
Are you currently employed?
20
25
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 13
1
A
I am.
2
Q
By whom?
3
A
By the National Collegiate Athletic Association.
4
Q
And what is your title?
5
A
My title is vice president and chief policy
6
7
advisor.
Q
I work in the office of the president.
And I believe I've seen reference to you as
8
chief policy officer as well.
9
Is that your
title?
10
A
No, it is not.
11
Q
Has that ever been your title?
12
A
16
Q
For how long have you worked for the NCAA?
17
A
I'm in my 40th year.
18
Q
Congratulations.
19
A
Thank you.
20
Q
Does that make you the longest tenured employee
21
22
at the NCAA?
A
23
It makes me the second longest, I believe.
I am
not the longest.
24
Q
Who is the longest tenured employee at the NCAA?
25
A
David Berst.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 14
4
Q
have you worked with or for
5
each of the NCAA's executive directors or
6
presidents?
9
A
Yes, I have.
10
There was a brief period of time, I should
11
note, when I was not employed by the NCAA, from
12
about the last day of June of 2002 until the
13
first day of January 2003, when I left the
14
employment of the association.
15
asked to come back and work with the new
16
president.
17
Q
18
Okay.
And we can address that.
And then was
I'd like to ask
you questions about the entire chronology here.
19
A
Fine.
20
Q
How many positions have you held during your
21
40-year tenure at the NCAA?
22
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 16
1
chief policy advisor.
2
That's pretty close.
3
I haven't tried to do
that in a long time.
4
5
And let's talk for a moment about the break
6
7
in 2002 to 2003.
A
Did you retire?
Because I had completed more than 20 years, the
8
term of art is -- is "retirement."
I left to
9
enter into a -- a private business in media
10
training and messaging and hopefully for clients
11
in higher education.
12
Q
And what prompted you to return to the NCAA?
13
A
I was prompted to return by a request from then
14
incoming NCAA President Myles Brand who asked if
15
I would come back and serve in the role as
16
senior communication advisor to him.
17
Q
And looking at your professional history, is
18
your expertise in public relations, messaging,
19
and communications?
21
A
My expertise is -- is generally in terms of
22
public relations.
23
expertise in messaging.
24
it's -- it's in public relations.
25
Q
I'm not sure there is an
Generally speaking,
And what are your current responsibilities?
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 17
1
A
I work in the office of the president.
I give
2
advice and counsel to the president, to the
3
chief operating officer, and to others with
4
regard to policy considerations that might be
5
developed or might be considered by the
6
membership and give thought and sometimes
7
writing to such policy considerations.
8
So generally speaking, it is a -- it's a --
9
it's a role of a counselor, an advisor.
I have
10
no managerial responsibilities.
11
not involved in the -- either the formulation,
12
the process of debate and discussion, and
13
certainly don't have a vote in any legislation,
14
nor do I have any role in the interpretation of
15
that legislation.
16
have no role in any legal considerations
17
involving the association or intercollegiate
18
athletics.
19
Q
I'm certainly
I'm not an attorney, so I
You mentioned that you are not involved in the
20
process of debate and discussion around
21
legislation.
22
not discuss legislation with anyone at the NCAA?
23
MR. WIERENGA:
24
25
I take that to mean that you do
Object -- objection to the
extent -Q
Is that correct?
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 18
1
MR. WIERENGA:
2
testimony.
3
4
-- that it misstates the
Go ahead.
A
The debate and discussion of legislation is done
5
at the membership level, because it is at the
6
membership level that those decisions are made.
7
The staff may be involved in discussions of
8
proposed or potential legislation, but because
9
the NCAA staff officed in Indianapolis has no
10
vote, it is -- it is more of an intellectual
11
discussion.
12
Q
13
And when you say "staff" there, you're referring
to NCAA staff?
14
A
I am.
15
Q
You mentioned among your responsibilities
16
providing counsel.
17
counsel?
18
A
To whom do you provide
To the president, to the chief operating
19
officer, to other vice presidents, or to other
20
staff on request regarding specific issues.
21
Q
And who is the current president of the NCAA?
22
A
Dr. Mark Emmert.
23
Q
And who is the current chief operating officer?
24
A
James Isch.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 19
4
Q
5
6
President Emmert?
A
7
8
How frequently do you communicate with
Weekly.
Sometimes more often.
Occasionally
less often.
Q
9
And how frequently do you communicate with
Mr. Isch?
10
A
Probably daily.
11
Q
Do your responsibilities include anything
12
related to video games?
13
A
No.
14
Q
Do you in your current position draft any
15
written materials?
16
MR. WIERENGA:
Object to the form.
17
Q
I --
18
A
Could you be more specific?
19
Q
I can.
Do you in your current position draft
20
any written materials at the direction of
21
President Emmert or Mr. Isch?
22
MR. WIERENGA:
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 20
7
Q
Can you provide me with examples of your --
8
the -- the type of written work product that you
9
work on at the NCAA?
10
MR. WIERENGA:
11
Go ahead.
12
A
Object to the form.
I find as a lifelong writer that one of the
13
easiest ways for me to work through a thought
14
process regarding issues is to write.
15
way in which I can argue with myself and present
16
a rational argument to others for how an issue
17
might be considered from various perspectives.
18
It's the
So very often the kind of writing I do
19
is -- is an examination of arguments related to
20
a -- a specific issue.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 27
1
Q
2
3
Have you ever had any contact with
representatives from CLC?
A
4
I have from time to time at various NCAA
functions that were both attended.
5
Q
Who have you had contact with from CLC?
6
A
With -- with Bill Battle and with his son, Pat
7
8
Battle.
Q
9
10
What's your understanding of the term
"collegiate model"?
A
The collegiate model is a way in which American
11
higher education differentiates the
12
participation in athletics by its students from
13
other models, most prominently from a
14
professional model.
15
characterized by two very distinct pieces.
16
is that those who are participants are students,
17
and that intercollegiate athletics conduct is
18
embedded in the values of higher education
19
itself right.
20
Q
The collegiate model is
One
What do you mean when you say "intercollegiate
21
athletics conduct is embedded in the values of
22
higher education"?
23
A
Well, American higher education is somewhat
24
different from education elsewhere in the world,
25
in that most colleges and universities are
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 28
1
comprehensive in nature.
2
access to a variety of -- of disciplines.
3
those disciplines are subsidized and often
4
cross-subsidized by -- by other disciplines
5
within the -- the university, within the
6
academy.
7
They provide a -- give
And
That same approach is used with regard to
8
intercollegiate athletics.
There is educational
9
value in the conduct of -- of intercollegiate
10
athletics.
That, in fact, is the justification
11
for athletics as part of the higher education
12
model.
13
number of individuals, the number of students
14
who can be involved in -- in intercollegiate
15
athletics.
And so the desire is to maximize the
16
To do that, institutions sponsor sports
17
across a broad range for both men and women.
18
Some of those sports have the capacity for
19
generating more interest and, therefore, more
20
resources than others, and there's a
21
cross-subsidization relationship between and
22
among those sports, very similar to the way in
23
which it's done elsewhere in higher education.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 29
1
2
MR. WIERENGA:
Q
-- to your knowledge?
3
MR. WIERENGA:
4
Go ahead.
A
7
8
I'm unclear by what you mean by "who is
responsible?"
Q
Did someone coin the term "collegiate model"?
9
10
Object to the form,
foundation.
5
6
Object --
MR. WIERENGA:
A
Same objections.
In my experience, the -- the first time that I
11
became aware of that term of art was with Myles
12
Brand.
But I don't know that that did not
15
Q
What does the term "amateurism" mean to you?
16
A
Amateurism is a -- is a definition of the
17
relationship between those who participate and
18
the institution that sponsors intercollegiate
19
athletics.
20
there are certain educational, social, athletic
21
benefits to be derived from that participation.
22
And that those who participate, that is to say,
23
the students choose, make a choice to
24
participate in this model, and that sets those
25
individuals apart from athletes who participate
212-279-9424
It is one that understands that
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 30
1
2
in, for example, the professional model.
Q
3
I'm trying to understand, how does the
collegiate model differ from amateurism?
4
A
Well, the --
8
A
The collegiate model, in fact, doesn't differ
9
from amateurism.
It embraces amateurism,
10
because it describes this relationship between
11
those who participate and the institution that
12
sponsors the -- the sport.
13
relationship is one of being a student.
14
And that -- that
Those who participate in intercollegiate
15
athletics are not employees of the institution,
16
and participating in athletics is -- is not
17
their job.
18
the -- the understanding, the definition within
19
higher education in America of -- of amateurism.
20
That's the -- that's -- so that's
That concept is certainly different than
21
the notion of amateurism as it -- as it migrated
22
to the United States in the -- in the 19th
23
century.
24
practiced on the European continent was more a
25
class distinction and set apart those who could
212-279-9424
The notion of amateurism as it was
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 31
1
afford to participate, who could pay all their
2
expenses, who did not require any sort of
3
financial resource- -- resources to -- to
4
participate from those who could not.
5
and, in fact, it was -- it was a -- it was a way
6
for -- for the more wealthy to participate only
7
with the wealthy.
8
9
And --
The American culture was considerably more
egalitarian, and that concept simply didn't work
10
in America.
11
that there is educational value to the
12
participation in athletics is -- is what sets
13
the -- the American and the collegiate model in
14
America apart from other models around the
15
world.
212-279-9424
But it -- but it -- but the notion
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 48
1
But the student-athletes do not.
2
And -- and the notion of amateurism is
3
confined to the student-athlete.
4
of acceptable professionalism applies to all
5
others.
6
exactly the way intercollegiate athletics began,
7
again, in the mid 19th century on American
8
campuses.
9
everything else along the way has -- has largely
10
11
And the notion
That has always been the case.
That is
And -- and -- and, you know,
been a matter of scale.
Q
You've given me a nice segue into a document
12
that I'm just about to show you.
13
do, are professional athletes victims of
21
Q
But before I
I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 418.
22
And I can represent to you that it's an internet
23
download of an article from the Chronicle of
24
Higher Education's website.
25
welcome to review the document in its entirety.
212-279-9424
And again, you're
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 49
1
The focus of my questions will be the quote from
2
you in the middle of the second page.
3
A
Oh, I'm sorry, the middle of the second page.
4
I'm sorry, could you direct me more
5
specifically?
6
8
A
9
Are you referring to the quote that begins,
"Commercialism is here to stay"?
10
Q
Correct.
11
A
"Student-athletes are amateurs.
12
Intercollegiate
athletics is not."
13
Yes, I see the quote.
14
Q
What's the distinction that you're drawing here?
17
A
Well, the distinction I'm drawing is exactly the
18
one that I made a few minutes ago.
19
concept of amateurism describes the relationship
20
between the students who participate in
21
athletics and their institutions.
22
relationship of choice.
23
in -- that is described in terms of the benefits
24
received and the motivation to receive those
25
benefits.
212-279-9424
That the
It is a
It is a relationship
And that that is distinctive from the
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 50
1
rest of the entity, the rest of intercollegiate
2
athletics.
3
Intercollegiate athletics is not an amateur
4
entity.
The -- those who participate are
5
amateurs.
6
definition, nor am I aware of anyone -- of any
7
definition that would describe intercollegiate
8
athletics in a way that would suggest that it is
9
amateur other than that those who participate
But -- but I've never seen a
10
are amateurs.
11
about the -- that distinction.
12
that is a distinction that is profoundly
13
apparent in the way in which the NCAA membership
14
has -- has described amateurism for over a
15
century now.
16
Q
17
18
And I think that
Intercollegiate athletics is not an amateur
endeavor.
A
That's -- that's what I meant
Is it a professional endeavor?
Those who are coaches, administrators, and
19
others, are professional by nature, by
20
definition, because they are paid to be that, to
21
be a coach, to be an administrator.
22
Intercollegiate athletics is, I think, in
23
the minds of most who would examine this, not
24
the same as a professional sports organization.
25
But that does not mean that it does not seek
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 51
1
revenue, for example, to cover the costs of a
2
particular sport, and in some cases, most cases,
3
to cover the costs of -- of the university
4
providing participation opportunities in other
5
sports and over a broad number of men and -- and
6
women students.
7
So, you know, in a -- in a commonly
8
understood definition, intercollegiate athletics
9
would -- would not, in the minds of most, in my
10
opinion, be seen as the same as a professional
11
sports organization.
12
that are similar.
It has characteristics
13
Q
What are those similar characteristics?
14
A
Those --
15
MR. WIERENGA:
16
answered.
17
18
Objection, asked and
But go ahead.
A
Yeah.
I -- I think I -- I think I really
19
answered that -- that question pretty
20
thoroughly.
21
Q
Okay.
In your experience, does the public
22
understand the distinction that you're drawing
23
here in the middle of the page?
24
MR. WIERENGA:
212-279-9424
Object to the form,
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 57
1
2
championship, NCAA women's championship?
A
I don't.
It's just not an area of -- of my
3
attention or expertise.
4
focus.
5
(Deposition Exhibit 419 marked for
6
7
Focus, I should say, my
identification.)
Q
I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 419,
8
Bates stamped -- are you familiar -- do you know
9
what I -- I mean when I say "Bates stamp"?
We
10
have a -- a lawyerly convention of numbering
11
documents using a number in the lower right-hand
12
corner.
13
MR. WIERENGA:
Those numbers.
14
A
Okay.
15
Q
We -- we may refer to it from time to time to --
16
A
18
I'm handing you Exhibit 419, which is Bates
19
stamped NCAAPROD00180245 to 248.
20
moment to review that document.
21
MR. CURTNER:
22
MR. WIERENGA:
23
24
Q
Please take a
What are we calling this?
419.
And as always, you're welcome to review the
entire document.
212-279-9424
My -- my questions will focus
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 58
9
Q
10
11
Can you identify this as an e-mail that you sent
a number of NCAA employees on August 31st, 2005?
A
12
That's what it says at the top, so yes, I think
that's correct.
13
Q
You have no reason to doubt this?
14
A
I have no reason to doubt that.
15
Q
And you write, "I know I have been such an
16
infrequent voice in this discussion, so I have
17
hesitated to comment now, but I'm not bothered
18
by the answer provided.
19
bothered that within the 25 percent space, the
20
images can change as the cursor passes over a
21
smaller image.
22
added, just expanded.
23
sponsors making money.
24
would associate with us or our schools if they
25
can't."
212-279-9424
I'm -- I'm also not
There is nothing new being
Basically I'm for
I don't see why they
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 59
1
A
Yes, I see that.
2
Q
Are you still for sponsors making money?
3
A
Sure, I am.
4
Q
Has your position changed at all in the last
5
seven years?
6
A
With regard to the sponsors making money?
7
Q
Whether you're for sponsors making money.
8
A
No, my -- my view on that has not changed.
9
I --
I'm -- I am -- I'm a believer in the
10
capitalistic approach, and -- and I believe that
11
businesses are generally in business, including
12
not-for-profit businesses, to make money.
13
they do that can differ between for-profit and
14
not-for-profit.
15
Q
Why
And earlier you testified that NCAA corporate
16
sponsors partner with the NCAA for a host of
17
reasons.
18
A
Uh-huh.
19
Q
Is that fair?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
Here you write, "I don't see why they" -- are
22
23
you referring to the sponsors there?
A
Yes, I believe I am, yes.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 60
4
Q
Why didn't you identify here some of the
5
benefits that we've been discussing earlier
6
today?
7
A
Well, I thought that's the question that you
8
would ask when you -- when you showed this to
9
me, because it would strike any reader on first
10
glance as being somewhat inconsistent with what
11
I just said.
12
time to time, I, in writing, will make argument
13
for effect.
I don't think that it is.
From
14
Generally speaking, I think that any
15
business, anywhere in the world, but certainly
16
American corporations, exist for the purpose of
17
selling a product or -- or a service.
18
seems not only reasonable to me but what we
19
would expect from a capitalistic approach for --
20
for corporations to make decisions that they
21
believe would be beneficial financially.
22
And so it
Even as I describe what I described a
23
moment ago, with regard to what the returns are,
24
I think that even then there's an expectation
25
that the goodwill that they gain from an
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 61
1
association with a highly valued entity will, in
2
fact, mean an increase in revenue.
3
that's certainly, I believe, their hope.
That's --
4
I believe that they are driven, as you
5
describe it, by a number of different factors to
6
this association.
7
are associated with intercollegiate athletics, I
8
tend to believe that their interest would be
9
less based on goodwill and -- and more solely
But without the values that
10
based on simply a financial return on
11
investment.
12
And at the same time, as I said, you know,
13
I will from time to time make a provocative
14
argument for the sake of engendering discussion.
15
I don't remember whether this was successful in
16
that regard or -- or not.
17
that there is an incon- -- a philosophical
18
inconsistence -- inconsistency between what I
19
said a moment ago and what is written here.
20
think that it is, you know, a -- a perfectly
21
reasonable correlation.
22
Q
But I don't believe
I
And you mentioned that you from time to time
23
write for effect, sometimes with the intent
24
of -- of provocation.
212-279-9424
But you don't mean to
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 62
1
2
somehow insincere, do you?
A
3
No, I don't mean that they are insincere.
But I
don't believe that the provocative necessarily
5
Q
Do you stand by what you wrote here?
6
A
I do.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 74
1
settings for a considerably long time and -- and
2
continue to use these arguments or variations
3
of -- of them in discussions about pay for play,
4
not from a perspective of rules or bylaws or
5
from a legal perspective, but from an
6
intellectual discussion of play for -- pay for
7
play as a concept.
8
Q
Did you draft this material?
9
A
I do not believe I did.
I believe this material
10
was drafted by Gary Brown, as he describes it,
11
based on conversations with me and others.
12
Q
That Gary Brown drafted in 2003?
13
Mr. Brown writes, "I'm attaching a
14
point/counterpoint ... that Myles, Wally, and
15
others helped the news compile in 2003."
16
17
MR. WIERENGA:
Q
18
19
So the question is?
Do you understand Mr. Brown to have drafted the
pay for play counterpoint materials here?
A
It's my understanding that he drafted them.
20
I -- I don't know what the date was when he
21
drafted them.
22
enough that I can't tell you whether I think it
24
25
Q
The -- the language is just vague
In the third full paragraph under pay for play
point/counterpoint, it's written, "Most athletic
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 75
1
departments do not generate revenues over
2
expenses."
3
4
Do you agree with that statement?
A
I do.
And indeed, the number that is provided,
5
whatever the date of this writing, he describes
6
there are only 40 Division I-A institutions.
7
Today those would be what we identify as
8
football bowl subdivision or FBS institutions,
9
and -- and that number is lower by almost half.
10
Q
So if I understand you correctly, approximately
11
20 Division I-A institutions and their current
12
equivalent operate in the black today; is that
13
correct?
14
104a
802
A
Operate with revenues that exceed expenses.
15
Q
Do you know sitting here today on average the
16
percentage of Division I athletic department
17
revenue that goes to facilities' construction or
18
improvements?
19
A
As we sit here today, I do not.
20
Q
Do you recall stating in a speech at Washington
21
and Lee University in June 2009, "Today, nearly
22
20 percent of the average spending in Division I
23
athletics is tied to facility expansion and the
24
debt service that results"?
25
A
I do recall those numbers in -- in that speech
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 76
104a
802
1
based on data that I had asked for and -- and
2
received.
3
in saying today in that speech, because the data
4
probably was -- predated the giving of the
5
speech.
6
Q
I cannot tell you that I was accurate
Do you have any reason to doubt that that --
7
that the nearly 20 percent figure was accurate
8
within six months of the date of your speech?
9
A
I don't know.
10
Q
Do you know sitting here today what the number
11
is?
12
A
I do not.
13
Q
Do you know on average the percentage of
14
department -- Division I athletic department
15
revenue that goes to coaching salaries?
18
A
I do not.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 79
1
half of programs that generate revenues over
2
expenses.
3
Q
I'm trying to draw a distinction here between
4
athletic departments and men's Division I
5
basketball and football programs in particular.
6
104a
602
7
Q
Sure.
Do you agree that many Division I men's
8
football and basketball programs generate
9
revenues over expenses?
12
A
Again, I'm -- I'm -- I'm not sure what you mean
13
by -- by "many."
You mean -- you may mean
14
almost all.
15
That's a pretty significant difference.
You may mean more than half.
16
Q
Okay.
18
A
More than ten institutions or more than
19
20
More than ten?
10 percent?
Q
More than -- do you agree that more than ten
21
Division I men's football and basketball
22
athletic programs generate revenue over
23
expenses?
24
A
I wouldn't be surprised.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 80
104a
602
1
Q
But you have no knowledge one way or another of
2
how many Division I men's football and
3
basketball programs generate revenue over
4
expenses?
5
A
Well, it's my general understanding that
6
approximately 70 percent of Division I FBS
7
institutions generate only in that sport
8
revenues that exceed the expenses of that sport.
9
And that number in men's basketball is
10
11
approximately 60 percent.
Q
What does pay for play mean?
12
MR. WIERENGA:
Object to the form.
13
A
As defined by whom?
14
Q
By you.
15
A
I understand pay for play to be the professional
16
model of -- of salaried remuneration for
17
athletics participation.
18
Q
I hate to get too fine here, but is -- does
19
unsalaried remuneration for athletic
20
participation also fall within your definition
21
of pay for play?
22
MR. WIERENGA:
Object to the form.
23
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 81
104a
602
(only if
NCAA
104a and
602
objections
are
acceptedotherwise
Plaintiffs
agree to
admit)
4
Q
Would -- to your knowledge, would remunerating
5
players for their participation in
6
intercollegiate athletics diminish public
7
interest in college sports?
11
A
Well, based on 40 years of -- of observation and
12
examination of what makes intercollegiate
13
athletics popular, I hold the view that if you
14
change the collegiate model into one that
15
attaches the student-athlete as -- as a
16
professional to the model, joining those others
17
who are professional, that in -- that in -- in
18
my view, that would diminish the -- the way in
19
which intercollegiate athletics is viewed,
20
appreciated, admired, loved by -- by the public.
21
The relationship of the student, the sport,
22
and the institution constitutes a phenomenon
23
that is held valuable by those who attend and
24
those who help sponsor the -- the broadcast
25
or -- you know, or in other ways support
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 82
104a
602
(only if
NCAA
104a and
602
objections
are
acceptedotherwise
Plaintiffs
agree to
admit)
1
intercollegiate athletics.
2
And, you know, again, based on my
3
observation over a lengthy career, I think that
4
turning intercollegiate athletics into second-
5
or third-rate professional sports would -- would
6
diminish the interest.
7
The level at which those who participate in
8
athletics in terms of their skills and their
9
purpose is not on par with what you would expect
10
from professional athletes.
11
athletes, playing sports is their job.
12
student-athletes, it is not.
212-279-9424
For professional
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
For
212-490-3430
Page 84
104a
602
17
To your knowledge, would paying former
18
student-athletes for their previous
19
participation in intercollegiate athletics
20
diminish public interest in college sports?
22
A
I have no way of -- of knowing the answer to
23
that.
24
thought to.
25
Q
It's not one that I've even given much
Has the NCAA studied that question to your
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 85
104a
602
1
knowledge?
2
A
Not to my knowledge.
3
Q
And you're not aware of any surveys concerning
4
that question, are you?
5
A
I personally am not.
6
Q
I understand that there have been considerable
7
discussion at the NCAA with its members about
8
the possibility of a stipend for
9
student-athletes above and beyond the
10
grant-in-aid.
11
Is that a fair characterization?
12
MR. WIERENGA:
13
foundation, relevance.
14
15
Object to the form,
Go ahead.
A
I did -- I believe the characterization is
16
inaccurate.
17
understood that to be considered a -- a stipend.
18
It is money that would cover the uncovered
19
additional costs between the current scholarship
212-279-9424
It is -- at no point have I
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 88
1
Q
2
Forgive me.
I think there is a tense issue.
While they were a student-athlete?
3
MR. WIERENGA:
Well, now I object, vague.
4
I'm still -- I don't understand how you can pay
5
a former student-athlete while they're --
6
MR. GOSSELIN:
Well --
7
MR. WIERENGA:
-- a student-athlete.
8
MR. GOSSELIN:
-- we -- we don't need your
9
testimony.
10
MR. WIERENGA:
11
12
104a
602
No, but that's my objection
to the question.
Q
Let me rephrase my question.
16
To your knowledge, would paying former
17
college athletes after their eligibility expires
18
for the use of their likeness while they were
19
student-athletes diminish public interest in
20
college sports?
23
A
24
25
I have no way of -- of knowing the answer to
that question.
Q
And this, too, is not something that the NCAA
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 89
104a
602
1
has studied to your knowledge?
2
A
Not that I'm aware of.
3
Q
Similarly, you're not aware of any surveys
4
5
addressing this question, are you?
A
I am not.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 109
1
task force may have furnished to committee
2
liaisons about how and when to distribute
3
documents to best protect them?
4
A
Your question is?
5
Q
Do you have any recollection of guidance
6
provided by the open --
7
A
No.
8
Q
-- records task force --
9
A
No.
10
Q
-- in this respect?
11
Do you know if the NCAA notified state
12
attorneys general about the work of the open
13
records task force?
14
A
I do not know.
15
Q
Do you know if the NCAA notified the presidents
16
19
of public universities about the work of the
Q
20
21
Let's talk for a moment about President Byers.
You worked for Mr. Byers; correct?
A
I worked for the NCAA when Mr. Byers was the
22
executive director, but I did not work for him
23
in the same way that I have worked for the last
24
two presidents of the NCAA.
25
of the office of the president.
212-279-9424
I was not a member
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 110
1
Q
2
Did you have any contact with President Byers
while he was executive director?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
And what was the nature of that contact?
5
A
Generally informal in the hall conversations.
6
did work with him on a couple publishing
7
I
projects for public consumption.
8
Q
9
10
And President Byers coined the term
"student-athlete"; correct?
A
I don't -- I don't know with certainty that --
11
that he did.
12
to him.
13
him myself, but I can't tell you with absolute
14
certainty that that's the case.
15
was during his period of time as executive
16
director that the -- that the term sort of came
17
to the forefront.
18
Q
I think it is generally attributed
I probably have even attributed it to
It certainly
Do you recall stating in a speech at Washington
19
and Lee University in 2009, "To be honest, the
20
term 'student-athlete' was the invention of the
21
first president of the NCAA, Walter Byers, who
22
used the term to mollify the media and others
23
when some college athletes began to receive
24
grants-in-aid to participate in sports"?
25
A
Yes, that's -- that's exactly the kind of
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 111
1
attribution that I was alluding to in my
2
previous question -- or answer.
3
Q
4
So you have no reason to recant this earlier
statement?
5
A
I do not.
6
Q
And are you aware that President Byers has
7
stated that the term was created because of
8
concerns that the grant-in-aid might create an
9
employee-employer relationship?
12
A
I don't know what -- I don't know that with --
13
with certainty.
I have -- as you read in that
14
speech, I have described it as I did there.
15
Q
Have you read President Byers' book?
16
A
I have not.
I -- I have read very small
17
portions of it from time to time, but I have not
18
read the book.
19
Q
Are you in contact with President Byers today?
20
A
I am not.
21
Q
When was the last time, if you can recall, that
22
23
24
you communicated with -- with President Byers?
A
In person, 1988.
Sometime after that, but with
no specific recall, by voice mail when there was
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 112
1
a -- I had a telephone number that I wasn't even
2
certain was his, reached out, left a voice mail.
3
He left me a voice mail indicating that he was
4
not interested in speaking to the reporter.
5
Q
And roughly what year was that?
6
A
I don't know.
7
Q
12
Q
What were your impressions of President Byers
13
during the period of overlap between the two of
14
you at the NCAA?
16
A
My impression of him in what regard?
17
Q
Do you -- did you respect him?
18
A
I did.
19
Q
Did you respect his accomplishments at the NCAA?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
And earlier you made a reference to the NCAA's
23
move, I believe it's from Kansas City, to
24
Indianapolis --
25
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 118
1
earlier, values driven, decision-making task
2
force, attempted to reduce the concept of those
3
principles and to articulate them in a fewer
4
number.
5
you a moment ago.
And -- and they are what I described to
6
Q
And which task force are you referring to?
7
A
In a previous document that you shared with me
8
just before our break, you'll recall that --
9
that it was a summary report of some 15
10
different task forces.
13
One of those was the one
Do the NCAA and its member institutions
14
have -- share commonly held principles outside
15
of those enumerated in the manual?
17
A
I don't -- I don't know.
If they -- if they
18
share commonly held values beyond those, they've
19
not been memorialized to -- that -- that I'm
20
aware of.
21
Q
22
Is the prohibition against pay for play a
commonly held principle, a rule, or both?
23
A
Both.
24
Q
I want to talk a little bit about
25
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 119
1
President Emmert when he was a candidate for his
2
current position?
3
4
MR. WIERENGA:
A
I did not.
Object to the form.
The interviewing is exclusively done
5
by the membership through its executive
6
committee.
7
Q
Did you -- were you introduced to
8
President Emmert as part of his candidacy for --
9
for this position?
10
MR. WIERENGA:
11
A
Object to the form.
I was a liaison to the executive committee in
12
its role as the search committee for the -- for
13
the president.
17
Q
18
19
And can you remind me when President Emmert
began in his current position?
A
He -- he was hired by, confirmed by the ex- --
20
the executive committee in April of 2010, but
21
did not become an actual employee and assume the
22
position until early October of -- of that year.
23
I don't recall the date precisely.
24
25
Q
And did you begin working with President Emmert
right away, or was there a delay?
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 120
1
A
Well, I -- I was -- I had been a member of the
2
office of the president prior to his coming in,
3
both with Dr. Brand and then with interim
4
president Jim Isch.
5
I continued throughout to be a member of the
6
office of the president.
7
which there were opportunities for the office of
8
the president to interact with the president
9
elect, I -- I did.
212-279-9424
And my role did not change.
And so the degree to
I was part of that.
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 122
1
2
opportunities for fulfilling the mission.
Q
3
4
And in providing advice, do you draw on your
40-year tenure at the NCAA?
A
I do.
5
7
(Deposition Exhibit 424 marked for
Q
8
I'm handing you what's been marked Exhibit 424,
Bates stamped NCAAPROD00148806 to 810.
9
MR. GOSSELIN:
I can tell all counsel
10
that -- I take that back.
11
perhaps this had been used as a past exhibit.
12
Now I don't believe that's the case.
13
Q
I -- I thought
But I can represent to you, Mr. Renfro, that the
14
NCAA did not for whatever reason produce the
15
next to last e-mail --
16
MR. SLAUGHTER:
17
MR. GOSSELIN:
18
Q
Sathya -Yeah, one second.
-- the next to last e-mail in this chain.
We
19
only have this one, so we're going to talk from
20
the first paragraph down.
21
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 124
1
Q
First, can you identify everything below the
2
first e-mail header as an e-mail that you sent
3
to President Emmert -- maybe it's easiest if we
4
do this, from the -- I guess what's the third
5
e-mail below.
6
of the page downward as an e-mail that you sent
7
on October 17th, 2010, at 12:12 p.m. to Mark
8
Emmert and Jim Isch?
Can you identify from the middle
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
And when was the last time that you saw this
11
document?
12
A
In all likelihood on October 17th.
13
Q
If you look at the -- does -- does the first
14
paragraph refresh your recollection of why you
15
sent this e-mail with the subject line "Looking
16
Forward"?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
Why did you send this e-mail?
19
A
This was an effort by me to give some advice,
20
some counsel, some thought to a fairly
21
significant range of -- of topics, some of which
22
I had probably already heard Dr. Emmert speak
23
about, some of which I anticipated would
24
likely -- likely come up.
25
certainly in the -- you know, the result of
212-279-9424
Some of them were
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 125
1
issues du jour, things that were right out in
2
front of us and very obviously so.
3
Q
4
5
And -- and did you intend this to be a full and
frank discussion?
A
It is nothing more than my observations on -- on
6
these topics and, within certain parameters,
7
some -- some -- some advice.
8
know, my -- my recollection is that, in fact, I
9
don't believe we ever really had a -- a full
10
11
It was -- you
discussion on this document.
Q
That was going to be my next question before we
12
start looking at various portions.
13
received a written response from
14
You never
President Emmert; is that correct?
15
A
I don't believe so.
16
Q
And do you --
17
A
It --
18
Q
-- recall -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
19
20
interrupt.
A
Well, it wasn't intended necessarily to -- you
21
know, to -- in expectation of a response.
22
was really just what it -- what it -- what it
23
is.
24
Q
It
Do you recall any meeting with President Emmert
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 126
3
Q
4
And if you look under "Stu-" -- the second page,
there's a header, "Student-Athlete Well-Being."
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
In the middle of that paragraph, you write,
7
"Maybe we don't call them student-athletes any
8
longer and just refer to them as students.
9
(It's a term that Walter Byers created to
10
counter the criticism that we are paying college
11
athletes when we began providing
12
grants-in-aid.)"
13
Have you made this particular proposal to
14
16
anyone else at the NCAA?
A
I don't recall whether I -- whether I have or --
17
or not.
18
that -- that in the very first paragraph, in the
19
last sentence of that paragraph, I said that
20
"I've given thought to all this and have tried
21
below to begin teasing out some thoughts that
22
might be further developed.
23
provocative, some probably not provocative
24
enough."
25
Let me just go back and -- and remind
Some of this is
So -- so almost always -- you know, this
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 127
1
was simply to inform Dr. Emmert of some of my
2
views, some of them that were mature, some of
3
them that probably weren't very mature.
4
tell you that this is one that I would certainly
5
characterize as not very mature.
6
it was a thought.
7
but I'm not sure that -- I -- I hadn't given a
8
lot of -- of thought to it, and -- and I don't
9
believe -- I don't recall that we ever discussed
10
11
I can
I had -- it --
It was sort of intriguing,
it again.
Q
Does -- does reading this refresh your
12
recollection that -- and I'm quoting -- "Walter
13
Byers created the term" -- my brackets -- "the
14
term 'student-athlete' to counter the criticism
15
that we were paying college athletes when we
16
began providing grants-in-aid"?
17
18
MR. WIERENGA:
A
Objection, foundation.
I'm not exactly sure what the question is that
19
you're asking.
20
had -- in a speech at Washington and Lee, had
21
made reference to an attribution to Walter about
22
the creation of the term "student-athletes" and
23
an attribution as to -- as to why.
24
I have testified earlier that I
So in terms of refreshing my memory, I'm
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 128
14
Q
15
If you look farther down the page, under the
header "Time Requirements."
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
And I'll read from it briefly.
"We know from a
18
couple of surveys we have done (one with current
19
student-athletes, which was first done about
20
four or five years ago that I think has been
21
updated), and one with students ten years out of
22
high school that student-ath-" --
23
A
Wait a minute.
24
25
MR. WIERENGA:
Where are you?
A
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 129
7
-- "and one with students ten years out of
-
8
high school), that student-athletes spend as
9
much as 45 hours a week on their sport, more
10
they say in some cases than their academics."
11
Do you recall sitting here today which
12
13
surveys you're referring to here?
A
The two that I were referring to are -- I --
14
I -- I can only identify by -- by acronym.
15
is called SCORE, or SCORES.
16
called GOALS.
17
student-ath- -- well, as this says,
18
student-athletes who had been out of high school
19
for ten years, and the other was a current
20
student-athlete.
21
recall, was with current student-athletes.
22
Q
23
One
And the other is
One has -- one was a survey of
The larger sampling, as I
Do you know if those materials are publicly
available?
24
A
I do not know.
25
Q
And do you know who conducted these surveys?
212-279-9424
I don't know the answer to that.
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 130
1
A
Well, I believe they were under -- they were
2
conducted under the auspices of our research
3
staff.
4
The ones for current student-athletes, I can
5
only imagine, were conducted on campus by
6
individuals on campus.
16
Q
I do not know who conducted the surveys.
You write further down in this paragraph, "We
17
have a wink and a nod approach to voluntary
18
activity."
19
21
What is a wink and a nod approach?
A
I think that that's a -- a -- a term of art that
22
most everyone when they read it understands that
23
it is imprecise, that it -- it does not
24
necessarily -- that there is not necessarily
25
100 percent compliance.
212-279-9424
Most everyone knows
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 131
1
there's not 100 percent compliance.
2
it -- it, like some other circumstances in
3
various other areas, is not viewed as being one
4
that you know how to achieve full enforcement.
5
But it --
I -- I can expand on that, if you wish, to
6
say, if I am a student-athlete or if I am a
7
musician or if am in theater, you know, a
8
thespian, or any number of other areas, my
9
voluntary commitment to that activity is
10
difficult to ever govern.
11
So we have a 20-hour rule for organized
12
activity, and that we ask the in- -- is my
13
understanding, we ask institutions to confirm
14
that that's -- that they comply with that.
15
in terms of voluntary activity, it's far more
16
difficult to ever know and, therefore, enforce
17
what -- what time students are putting into any
18
number of different activities.
19
Q
And you mentioned a few examples.
But
Does the NCAA
20
govern theater, music -- music or theater
21
activities?
23
A
It does not govern those activities, but those
24
activities are similar to -- are part of the way
25
in which activities in the collegiate model
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 132
1
function.
2
athletics often, I would say even generally,
3
have some relationship to the way things are
4
conducted elsewhere on campus.
5
Q
So activities in intercollegiate
Do you recall whether the two surveys that
6
you've identified today provided statistics
7
about the compliance rate, the time requirement
8
compliance rate of the students surveyed?
9
A
I do not recall.
10
Q
Look at the bottom paragraph on that page.
You
11
wrote under "Commercial Exploitation," and you
12
skip ahead one sentence.
13
sense that intercollegiate athletics is as
14
thoroughly commercialized as professional
15
sports."
16
Whose general sense are you referring to
17
18
"There is a general
there?
A
The -- the world, the public, that -- and -- and
19
I don't even state it as -- I don't intend to
20
state it as a matter of fact or a provable fact.
21
Only that if one reads the media and relies on
22
that to be some sort of metric for public
23
opinion, one might draw from that that there is
24
this general sense.
25
Q
Are you suggesting that the media has somehow
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 133
1
incorrectly reported that the public views
2
intercollegiate athletics as thoroughly
3
commercialized?
7
A
104a
802
Actually, what I am suggesting is that the
8
media -- media has incorrectly suggested that
9
intercollegiate athletics is thoroughly
10
11
commercialized as professional sports.
Q
Let's continue on.
You write, "Some believe
12
that athletic departments study how to emulate
13
the pros on marketing their sports, primarily
14
football and basketball, and sometimes lead the
15
way."
16
To your knowledge, do any college athletic
17
departments study how to emulate the pros on
18
marketing their sports?
19
A
Well, that was not the point of the sentence.
20
The point of the sentence was that there are
21
some who believe that that -- that that occurs.
22
I would not know the answer to the question that
23
you asked.
24
25
Q
So you haven't discussed this with any athletic
directors?
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 134
1
A
No.
2
Q
And I'm continuing on.
3
4
"And the public would
104a
802
generally," I -- I believe -A
Typo.
5
6
-- "generally agree that all -- that has
-
7
all taken place at the expense of the
8
student-athlete whose participation is excluded
9
to make another buck for another stadium, the
10
coaches, the administrators, or for other teams
11
who can't pay their own way.
12
continuing on to the next page -- "a fairness
13
issue and along with the notion that
14
student-athletes are students is the great
15
hypocrisy of intercollegiate athletics."
16
What do you mean by "the great hypocrisy of
17
19
It is" --
intercollegiate athletics"?
A
Again, remember that I am talking about the
20
opinion of some.
21
believe that athletics departments and -- and so
22
on and so forth.
23
thought in a provocatively stated way that some
24
believe this is the state of -- of
25
intercollegiate athletics.
212-279-9424
So this is all based upon some
So this is a continuation of
I don't -- I don't
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 135
1
try to -- to des- -- to describe in this nor
2
would I know how to describe how many are
3
"some."
4
writings some of in the media who -- who, in
5
fact, use terms much like or exactly like the
6
terms that I have used -- used here.
7
way to, as bluntly and as provocatively as I
8
could, sort of state the view of those who are
9
the most critical and cynical of intercollegiate
10
11
104a
802
But I certainly have encountered the
This was a
athletics.
Q
And so if I understand you correctly, you're
12
channeling the media, in a sense, when you
13
write, "The great hypocrisy of intercollegiate
14
athletics"?
16
A
Yeah.
I wouldn't agree with the term of art
17
that you used.
18
it's in my power to channel anyone.
19
representing what it's my understanding through
20
media readings is the opinion of some.
21
Q
Okay.
I don't -- certainly don't think
But I'm
And if we go down the page to the next
22
bullet point, "Professional Exploitation
23
(Agents)," you write, "We have always had a
24
cradle-to-grave approach to amateurism.
25
104a
802
born an amateur, but like innocence once lost,
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
You are
212-490-3430
Page 136
1
it cannot be regained.
But our commitment to
2
amateurism and the commitment of our public's
3
has often been based on something other than how
4
we define amateurism in our own constitution.
5
In the most romantic sense, we think of
6
amateurism as playing sports for the love of the
7
game, for the camaraderie among competitors, for
8
the pride of victory for school or colors, and
9
then we use this romanticized sense of
10
amateurism to define the entire enterprise of
11
104a
802
collegiate athletics."
12
Do you see that?
13
A
Yes, I do.
14
Q
Now, you wrote this in 2010.
15
A
Yes.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 137
1
use to suggest it isn't based on fact.
2
based more on emotional or, you know, some sort
3
of visceral sense of intercollegiate athletics.
4
It's
And -- and so this is a -- this was written
5
as a way to -- to sort of describe how
6
amateurism has a narrow meaning within the
7
constitution but is applied broadly and, in my
8
estimation, far too broadly to the entirety of
9
intercollegiate athletics.
And that's a --
10
that's a point I -- I made earlier this morning.
11
And you will recall that there was something
12
that you had provided that I had written about
13
student-athletes or amateurs, intercollegiate
15
Q
And if I understand you correctly, this excerpt
16
that we've read here is anoth- -- is another
17
attempt, for lack of a better term -- I'm
18
certainly open to others -- to channel others
19
who may be critical of the NCAA; is that
20
correct?
21
A
It's an ability to articulate the opinion as I
22
understand it of -- of others.
I simply -- I
23
don't know what you mean by "channel."
24
Q
Well --
25
A
But it is -- it is an effort to -- to try to --
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 138
1
in a very provocative, blunt way, to -- you
2
know, to -- to sort of establish the -- the view
3
of -- of -- of some without any determination of
4
how many those are who are critics, who are
5
cynics, and who have a platform to express their
6
criticism or cynicism.
7
Q
And do you, Mr. Renfro, as Mr. Renfro, agree
8
with the statement that begins, "You are born an
9
amateur" and ends with, "to define the entire
10
12
enterprise of intercollegiate athletics"?
A
13
14
Do you mean is this my personally held view?
It
is not.
Q
Okay.
You write at the bottom of that
15
paragraph, "We, and you will have to lead the
16
charge, must do a better job of helping put
17
these concepts into perspective, and we are
18
best-served in that effort by doing so within
19
the context of higher education.
20
for student-athletes to have agents.
21
avocational nature of student-athletics
22
participation prohibits the gathering of
23
monetary benefits in such a relationship."
24
25
It may be okay
The
Is this a suggestion by you as Mr. Renfro
that it may be okay for student-athletes to have
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 139
1
2
agents?
A
It wasn't a suggestion.
It was an observation.
3
But the observation, if it were to be
4
considered, offers a codicil.
5
Q
And how would this arrangement work such that
6
there are no -- there is no gathering of
7
monetary benefits?
11
A
12
13
And it -- and it really doesn't fall to me to
figure that out.
Q
14
And you don't recall ever receiving any feedback
from President Emmert about this --
15
A
I do not.
16
Q
-- observation?
17
If we continue on to the next page.
18
Under
"Financial Underpinning of Athletics" --
19
A
Uh-huh.
20
Q
104a
-- in the middle of that paragraph, you write,
21
"The top 25 percent of Division I is setting the
22
spending pace for the rest of the division,
23
although the bottom 25 has largely stopped
24
trying to compete and is content with the
25
prestige that comes with being in the same
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Page 140
1
neighborhood.
2
the middle 50 percent.
3
4
104a
are the haves, the have-nots, and the
forget-about-its."
5
The real issue appears to be in
So what we really see
Do you see that comment?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
Now, when you write, "the top 25 percent," are
8
you referring to the top 25 percent in terms of
9
revenue over expenses?
11
A
I'm probably -- no, I'm definitely not.
I'm
12
probably referring to the top 25 percent in
13
terms of athletics budget.
14
Q
And that's overall --
15
A
A budget is an estimation or a -- a goal for
16
what you will spend.
17
Q
And are those annual budgets?
18
A
Yes, that was the thought I had in mind.
19
22
I'm
sorry.
Q
So if I have this correctly, you're -- you're
23
referring to the top 25 percent as the haves,
24
the middle 50 percent as the have-nots, and the
25
bottom 25 percent as the forget-about-its.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
Can
212-490-3430
Page 141
104a
1
you give me examples of -- of universities that
2
fall into each of those categories?
5
A
The intent of this was not, in fact, to identify
6
specific institutions.
7
budgets are of -- of institutions.
8
at aggregated numbers and at the median or
9
average of -- of those aggregated numbers.
14
Q
I don't know what the
I only look
And in your experience, the -- are the
15
forget-about-its able to compete effectively
16
with the haves?
18
A
I think that, in fact, the sentence above that
19
says that "The bottom 25 has largely stopped
20
trying to compete and is content with the
21
prestige that comes with being in the same
22
neighborhood."
23
So I -- so I think I had -- I had already
h ad
ha
24
said in this paragraph that they likely were not
25
competing with the top 25.
212-279-9424
VERITEXT REPORTING COMPANY
www.veritext.com
212-490-3430
Disclaimer: Justia Dockets & Filings provides public litigation records from the federal appellate and district courts. These filings and docket sheets should not be considered findings of fact or liability, nor do they necessarily reflect the view of Justia.
Why Is My Information Online?