Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College et al

Filing 421

DECLARATION re 412 MOTION for Summary Judgment by Students for Fair Admissions, Inc.. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1, # 2 Exhibit 2, # 3 Exhibit 3, # 4 Exhibit 4, # 5 Exhibit 5, # 6 Exhibit 6, # 7 Exhibit 7, # 8 Exhibit 8, # 9 Exhibit 9, # 10 Exhibit 10, # 11 Exhibit 11, # 12 Exhibit 12, # 13 Exhibit 13, # 14 Exhibit 14, # 15 Exhibit 15, # 16 Exhibit 16, # 17 Exhibit 17, # 18 Exhibit 18, # 19 Exhibit 19, # 20 Exhibit 20, # 21 Exhibit 21, # 22 Exhibit 22, # 23 Exhibit 23, # 24 Exhibit 24, # 25 Exhibit 25, # 26 Exhibit 26, # 27 Exhibit 27, # 28 Exhibit 28, # 29 Exhibit 29, # 30 Exhibit 30, # 31 Exhibit 31, # 32 Exhibit 32, # 33 Exhibit 33, # 34 Exhibit 34, # 35 Exhibit 35, # 36 Exhibit 36, # 37 Exhibit 37, # 38 Exhibit 38, # 39 Exhibit 39, # 40 Exhibit 40, # 41 Exhibit 41, # 42 Exhibit 42, # 43 Exhibit 43, # 44 Exhibit 44, # 45 Exhibit 45, # 46 Exhibit 46, # 47 Exhibit 47, # 48 Exhibit 48, # 49 Exhibit 49, # 50 Exhibit 50, # 51 Exhibit 51, # 52 Exhibit 52, # 53 Exhibit 53, # 54 Exhibit 54, # 55 Exhibit 55, # 56 Exhibit 56, # 57 Exhibit 57, # 58 Exhibit 58, # 59 Exhibit 59, # 60 Exhibit 60, # 61 Exhibit 61, # 62 Exhibit 62, # 63 Exhibit 63, # 64 Exhibit 64, # 65 Exhibit 65, # 66 Exhibit 66, # 67 Exhibit 67, # 68 Exhibit 68, # 69 Exhibit 69, # 70 Exhibit 70, # 71 Exhibit 71, # 72 Exhibit 72, # 73 Exhibit 73, # 74 Exhibit 74, # 75 Exhibit 75, # 76 Exhibit 76, # 77 Exhibit 77, # 78 Exhibit 78, # 79 Exhibit 79, # 80 Exhibit 80, # 81 Exhibit 81, # 82 Exhibit 82, # 83 Exhibit 83, # 84 Exhibit 84, # 85 Exhibit 85, # 86 Exhibit 86, # 87 Exhibit 87, # 88 Exhibit 88, # 89 Exhibit 89, # 90 Exhibit 90, # 91 Exhibit 91, # 92 Exhibit 92, # 93 Exhibit 93, # 94 Exhibit 94, # 95 Exhibit 95, # 96 Exhibit 96, # 97 Exhibit 97, # 98 Exhibit 98, # 99 Exhibit 99, # 100 Exhibit 100, # 101 Exhibit 101, # 102 Exhibit 102, # 103 Exhibit 103, # 104 Exhibit 104, # 105 Exhibit 105, # 106 Exhibit 106, # 107 Exhibit 107, # 108 Exhibit 108, # 109 Exhibit 109, # 110 Exhibit 110, # 111 Exhibit 111, # 112 Exhibit 112, # 113 Exhibit 113, # 114 Exhibit 114, # 115 Exhibit 115, # 116 Exhibit 116, # 117 Exhibit 117, # 118 Exhibit 118, # 119 Exhibit 119, # 120 Exhibit 120, # 121 Exhibit 121, # 122 Exhibit 122, # 123 Exhibit 123, # 124 Exhibit 124, # 125 Exhibit 125, # 126 Exhibit 126, # 127 Exhibit 127, # 128 Exhibit 128, # 129 Exhibit 129, # 130 Exhibit 130, # 131 Exhibit 131, # 132 Exhibit 132, # 133 Exhibit 133, # 134 Exhibit 134, # 135 Exhibit 135, # 136 Exhibit 136, # 137 Exhibit 137, # 138 Exhibit 138, # 139 Exhibit 139, # 140 Exhibit 140, # 141 Exhibit 141, # 142 Exhibit 142, # 143 Exhibit 143, # 144 Exhibit 144, # 145 Exhibit 145, # 146 Exhibit 146, # 147 Exhibit 147, # 148 Exhibit 148, # 149 Exhibit 149, # 150 Exhibit 150, # 151 Exhibit 151, # 152 Exhibit 152, # 153 Exhibit 153, # 154 Exhibit 154, # 155 Exhibit 155, # 156 Exhibit 156, # 157 Exhibit 157, # 158 Exhibit 158, # 159 Exhibit 159, # 160 Exhibit 160, # 161 Exhibit 161, # 162 Exhibit 162, # 163 Exhibit 163, # 164 Exhibit 164, # 165 Exhibit 165, # 166 Exhibit 166, # 167 Exhibit 167, # 168 Exhibit 168, # 169 Exhibit 169, # 170 Exhibit 170, # 171 Exhibit 171, # 172 Exhibit 172, # 173 Exhibit 173, # 174 Exhibit 174, # 175 Exhibit 175, # 176 Exhibit 176, # 177 Exhibit 177, # 178 Exhibit 178, # 179 Exhibit 179, # 180 Exhibit 180, # 181 Exhibit 181, # 182 Exhibit 182, # 183 Exhibit 183, # 184 Exhibit 184, # 185 Exhibit 185, # 186 Exhibit 186, # 187 Exhibit 187, # 188 Exhibit 188, # 189 Exhibit 189, # 190 Exhibit 190, # 191 Exhibit 191, # 192 Exhibit 192, # 193 Exhibit 193, # 194 Exhibit 194, # 195 Exhibit 195, # 196 Exhibit 196, # 197 Exhibit 197, # 198 Exhibit 198, # 199 Exhibit 199, # 200 Exhibit 200, # 201 Exhibit 201, # 202 Exhibit 202, # 203 Exhibit 203, # 204 Exhibit 204, # 205 Exhibit 205, # 206 Exhibit 206, # 207 Exhibit 207, # 208 Exhibit 208, # 209 Exhibit 209, # 210 Exhibit 210, # 211 Exhibit 211, # 212 Exhibit 212, # 213 Exhibit 213, # 214 Exhibit 214, # 215 Exhibit 215, # 216 Exhibit 216, # 217 Exhibit 217, # 218 Exhibit 218, # 219 Exhibit 219, # 220 Exhibit 220, # 221 Exhibit 221, # 222 Exhibit 222, # 223 Exhibit 223, # 224 Exhibit 224, # 225 Exhibit 225, # 226 Exhibit 226, # 227 Exhibit 227, # 228 Exhibit 228, # 229 Exhibit 229, # 230 Exhibit 230, # 231 Exhibit 231, # 232 Exhibit 232, # 233 Exhibit 233, # 234 Exhibit 234, # 235 Exhibit 235, # 236 Exhibit 236, # 237 Exhibit 237, # 238 Exhibit 238, # 239 Exhibit 239, # 240 Exhibit 240, # 241 Exhibit 241, # 242 Exhibit 242, # 243 Exhibit 243, # 244 Exhibit 244, # 245 Exhibit 245, # 246 Exhibit 246, # 247 Exhibit 247, # 248 Exhibit 248, # 249 Exhibit 249, # 250 Exhibit 250, # 251 Exhibit 251, # 252 Exhibit 252, # 253 Exhibit 253, # 254 Exhibit 254, # 255 Exhibit 255, # 256 Exhibit 256, # 257 Exhibit 257, # 258 Exhibit 258, # 259 Exhibit 259, # 260 Exhibit 260, # 261 Exhibit 261)(Consovoy, William) (Additional attachment(s) added on 6/18/2018: # 262 Unredacted version of Declaration, # 263 Exhibit 1 (filed under seal), # 264 Exhibit 2 (filed under seal), # 265 Exhibit 5 (filed under seal), # 266 Exhibit 6 (filed under seal), # 267 Exhibit 7 (filed under seal), # 268 Exhibit 8 (filed under seal), # 269 Exhibit 9 (filed under seal), # 270 Exhibit 10 (filed under seal)) (Montes, Mariliz). (Additional attachment(s) added on 6/18/2018: # 271 Exhibit 11 (filed under seal), # 272 Exhibit 12(filed under seal), # 273 Exhibit 13 (filed under seal), # 274 Exhibit 14 (filed under seal), # 275 Exhibit 16 (filed under seal), # 276 Exhibit 17(filed under seal), # 277 Exhibit 18(filed under seal), # 278 Exhibit 19 (filed under seal), # 279 Exhibit 20 (filed under seal), # 280 Exhibit 22 (filed under seal), # 281 Exhibit 23 (filed under seal), # 282 Exhibit 24 (filed under seal), # 283 Exhibit 25(filed under seal), # 284 Exhibit 26 (filed under seal), # 285 Exhibit 28 (filed under seal), # 286 Exhibit 29 (filed under seal), # 287 Exhibit 31 (filed under seal), # 288 Exhibit 32 (filed under seal), # 289 Exhibit 33 (filed under seal), # 290 Exhibit 35 (filed under seal), # 291 Exhibit 36 (filed under seal), # 292 Exhibit 37 (filed under seal), # 293 Exhibit 38(filed under seal), # 294 Exhibit 39 (filed under seal), # 295 Exhibit 40 (filed under seal), # 296 Exhibit 41, # 297 Exhibit 42 (filed under seal), # 298 Exhibit 43 (filed under seal), # 299 Exhibit 44(filed under seal), # 300 Exhibit 45 (filed under seal), # 301 Exhibit 46 (filed under seal), # 302 Exhibit 47 (filed under seal), # 303 Exhibit 48 (filed under seal), # 304 Exhibit 51 (filed under seal)) (Montes, Mariliz).

EXHIBIT 21

Highly Confidential - Attorneys' Eyes Only

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF MASSACHUSETTS

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3

STUDENTS FOR FAIR
ADMISSIONS, INC.

4

Plaintiff,

5

VS.

6

PRESIDENT AND FELLOWS OF
HARVARD COLLEGE (HARVARD
CORPORATION)

7

8

Defendant.

§
§
§
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§
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§
§
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§
§

CIVIL ACTION NO.
1:14-cv-14176-ADB

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10
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14

HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL - ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
RUTH SIMMONS
April 11, 2018
Houston, Texas

15
16
17
18
19
20
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24
25

REPORTED BY: Linda Russell, CSR
JOB NO: 139807
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I think, to be sure, the use of race

3

as one factor in the admission process has in

4

fact been important and has created a better

5

learning environment on campuses where that is

6

the policy.

7

Q.

I'm absolutely certain of that.
(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Do you support

8

giving preferences in the admissions process to

9

legacies?

10

A.

I'm not sure I would call it a

11

preference.

12

legacy as an element of the admission process.

13

Q.

I certainly support considering

Yeah, and I saw that language in the

14

report a couple of times, quote, "consider

15

legacy."

16

"pay attention to legacy status."

17

I'm confused about what -- what do you mean by

18

"consider legacy status?"

19

A.

And I think another phrase you used was
And I guess

So, again, in the admission process,

20

and if you've looked at an application recently,

21

you see that there are all kinds of things

22

involved that we -- all kind of information we

23

gather in the admission process.

24
25

When I'm looking at whether or not a
student can benefit from and contribute to a
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particular educational environment, I'm looking

3

for their academic strength, I'm looking at their

4

curiosity, I'm looking at their volunteer

5

activity, I'm looking at their economic class,

6

I'm looking at hardships maybe they've endured,

7

I'm looking at whether they've traveled, I'm

8

looking -- I'm looking at so many different

9

factors.

10

One of those factors can be whether

11

or not they are familiar with my university

12

because members of their family have been to the

13

university.

14

And, again, I'm looking at all manner

15

of information to determine whether or not they

16

will benefit from the environment that we offer.

17

Q.

In your experience, was the fact that

18

a student was a legacy, was that ever a negative

19

factor that harmed the student's chances of

20

getting into the school?

21

A.

I don't -- I can't think of an

22

instance in which it would have, because there

23

are so many other factors being included in the

24

assessment of a student's qualifications.

25

Q.

All right.

So I guess I'm just

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trying to understand why -- why the hesitancy to

3

just say at Brown we gave an admissions tip to

4

the children of alumni?

5

it happens; why not just admit it?

6

MR. ADEGBILE:

7
8

A.

Why not just -- I mean,

Objection.

Because what you're saying isn't the

case.

9

So, I wouldn't say that we gave an

10

admission tip.

11

it.

12

being equal, there are a number of different

13

things in the admission process that you're

14

looking at.

15

core value of what the applicant brings in terms

16

of academics, in terms of extracurriculars, in

17

terms of all of the other things, before you get

18

to the point where you look at something like

19

whether a member of their family has gone to the

20

university.

21

I think that's the way you put

What I would say is that all other things

But you're always looking at the

And so I don't think it's a tip.

I

22

think the student is fully qualified.

23

judgment that you deploy in putting together a

24

class, just as you might use your judgment to

25

decide that you want the student from South
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And in the

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Dakota over another student from New York, you

3

might decide it would be good to have someone

4

with the legacy experience as a part of the

5

class.

6

Q.

So the hypothetical situation, you

7

have a student who is fully qualified to attend

8

Brown.

9

that he or she is a legacy might be one of the

10
11
12
13

And is it your testimony that the fact

factors that helps that student get into Brown?
A.

It's one of the factors that might

make them qualified for admission.
Q.

Absolutely.

Do you think if Harvard or Brown

14

stopped, in your words, considering legacies,

15

that the number of students who are legacies

16

attending Brown or attending Harvard would

17

decrease?

18

MR. ADEGBILE:

Objection.

19

A.

I don't know.

20

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Then I guess I

21

don't -- why is it so important, then, to

22

consider -- how can you say it's really important

23

to consider legacies -- whether an individual

24

is a legacy if you don't know how it will affect

25

the class?
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A.

That's not the question you asked.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

Okay?

5

So, again, our belief over time --

6

and for some of us that's literally hundreds of

7

years; hundreds of years -- what we have

8

experienced is that the involvement of families

9

over time in our institutions adds a dimension to

10

the university that is very important and very

11

desirable.

12

reasons that these are highly selected

13

institutions.

14

Q.

In truth, I think it's one of the

Do -- excuse me.

Do you think the

15

level of alumni involvement at an institution

16

like Harvard would decrease if Harvard stopped

17

considering or giving preferences to legacies?

18

A.

I think it might.

Here's what we do

19

know -- here's what I know:

20

children.

21

Q.

I'm sorry.

22

A.

Follow their children's choices.

Parents follow their

Follow their children...?

23

so if I decide -- if I go -- my granddaughter

24

goes to Prairie View, my interest and my

25

philanthropy will follow her.
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And what I've seen over the years

3

from people who went to other institutions who

4

have transferred their allegiances to Brown is

5

that they followed their children to Brown.

6

Their interest followed their children to Brown.

7

Q.

But presumably you don't need a

8

preference in order to get parents interested in

9

following their children.

Whoever you enroll,

10

their parents will be interested in following

11

their children, as you say.

12
13

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

I think their interest is not as

14

deep, not as lasting, because those parents tend

15

to leave when their children leave.

16

So a great advantage of legacy, in my

17

view, though, as I've tried to explain, I don't

18

see it so much as a preference for legacies, I

19

see it as a factor that is very important in the

20

admission process insofar as we are trying to

21

consider all factors and creating a class that

22

will inure to the benefit of the educational

23

values that we have.

24
25

So, as you know, I'm very much an
advocate of involving alumni.
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I believe,
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personally, that it is the difference between --

3

literally the difference between the success of

4

educational institutions and the standing of

5

educational institutions.

6

Q.

And I guess your testimony is, that

7

level of involvement -- alumni involvement at a

8

school --

9

A.

Over time.

10

Q.

-- over time at a school like Harvard

11

would decrease if there were not certain legacy

12

preferences?

13
14

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

Again, I don't see it as legacy

15

preferences, because I think if you -- if it were

16

legacy preferences, there would be more legacies.

17

A lot of legacies out there.

18
19
20
21

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

So I'll replace it

with legacy consideration.
A.

Oh, thank you.

Okay.

So, yes, I

think it would decrease --

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

-- without that.

24

Q.

And why do you think that?

25

A.

As I say, I think that over time
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people tend to be considerate of what

3

institutions have meant in their lives over time.

4

My observation is that that has been

5

the case even though individuals may not be in

6

every year devoted to that, over time they tend

7

to remain invested very heavily because of what

8

that education meant to them.

9

the loss of that commitment and involvement,

And I worry about

10

because I think it is what clearly differentiates

11

institutions.

12

Q.

So is it your fear that if an alumni

13

of -- or an alumnus of Harvard or Brown feels

14

that his or her child, that the legacy aspect

15

will not be considered maybe ten years down the

16

road when the child is applying, that will make

17

them less likely to be involved with the

18

university?

19

A.

I don't know, but -- but it could.

20

Most of us who have been presidents have

21

experienced the ire of parents whose children

22

have been denied admission.

23

more prominent feature of our experience than

24

actual number of legacies admitted, because far

25

more are denied than admitted.
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That is actually a

And so we come to
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experience what it feels like in a family when

3

students don't have a chance -- legacies don't

4

have a chance of being considered.

5

On the other hand, if people are

6

aware that their children will be at least

7

considered, they are -- they are certainly

8

happier with that possibility than with the fact

9

that they cannot be considered.

10

Q.

Well, and it's not just that the

11

student will be considered, it's that the legacy

12

aspect will be considered, correct?

13

A.

Of course.

14

Q.

Yeah.

15
16

THE WITNESS:
Q.

Excuse me.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Has the student

17

who is a legacy done anything personally to

18

deserve this, in your words, consideration?

19

A.

To be admitted, they have to.

20

Q.

Right.

But to receive the -- the,

21

quote, legacy consideration, has the student done

22

anything?

23

A.

24
25

Well, the -MR. ADEGBILE:

A.

Objection.

The student in South Dakota hasn't
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done anything either.

3

So -- so, my point is that we -- we

4

use many different attributes in the admission

5

process.

6

Often the students haven't done

7

anything in their particular area to suggest that

8

they should get the nod in admission, it's just

9

that they happen to be in a pool of students in a

10

given year in which either their state or their

11

region or their school or their circumstances

12

become important in the admission process and

13

they haven't done anything to merit it on the

14

basis of that singular attribute.

15

not -- that's not so unusual in the admission

16

process.

17

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

So that's

You mentioned the

18

consideration of someone from South Dakota.

19

They're -- so I would call that I guess a

20

geographic consideration.

21

can think of who would not receive

22

consideration -- one of these special types of

23

considerations?

24
25

A.

Is there anyone you

Any one?
MR. ADEGBILE:

Objection.

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3

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Any -- any type

of -- any type of person.

4

MR. ADEGBILE:

5

A.

Objection.

I'm not talking about a type of

6

person, I'm talking about a particular attribute

7

of a person.

8

So maybe you can say a bit more?

9

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Sure.

So, you

10

know, how about a middle class white student from

11

the Bronx, can you think of any special

12

consideration that student would receive at

13

Harvard?

14

MR. ADEGBILE:

15

A.

Objection.

It's hard to say, without knowing

16

the -- without knowing -- but if that student,

17

for example, is from the Bronx High School of

18

Science, you know, they might be highly sought

19

after.

20

Let me give you an example.

21

letters of recommendation all the time from Texas

22

to Ivy League universities.

23

often is, "You need more students from Texas."

24

And my argument is, "Here's" -- "Here are the

25

reasons that this particular student from Texas
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I write

And my argument

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R. SIMMONS - 4/11/2018
should be considered."

3

Now, I'm doing that because I

4

actually believe that more students from Texas

5

would benefit from an education in these

6

institutions, but also because I think that we,

7

as Texans, bring something different to those

8

environments.

9

So it's both cultural and academic.

10

A student from Bronx might bring a cultural

11

dimension that would be very important to

12

Harvard, for all I know.

13

student.

14
15
16
17
18

MR. CONNOLLY:

It depends on the

One more exhibit and

then break for lunch, if you're fine with that.
MR. ADEGBILE:

If you wouldn't mind

describing it for the record.
MR. CONNOLLY:

Sure.

This is --

19

Exhibit 3, an article entitled, "The

20

Self-Destruction of the 1 Percent," from the

21

New York Times, October 14th, 2012.

22

In particular, I'll be focusing on

23

page 2 around the halfway point is where

24

President Simmons has a quote.

25

(Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)
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3

(Witness reviewing document.)
Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

If you could turn

4

to page 2.

5

paragraph that starts off with, "At the World

6

Economic Forum."

7

paragraph is a sentence that starts,

8

"Dr. Simmons."

About halfway down, there's a

And halfway through that

Do you see that?

9

A.

Yeah, I do.

10

Q.

Could you read the rest of that

11
12
13

paragraph for me?
A.

The rest of it meaning starting with,

"Dr. Simmons"?

14

Q.

Yes, starting with, "Dr. Simmons."

15

A.

"Dr. Simmons, a Harvard-trained

16

literature scholar, worked hard to make Brown

17

more accessible to poor students, but when I

18

asked whether it was a time to abolish legacy

19

admissions, the Ivy League's own Book of Gold,

20

she shrugged me off with a laugh:

21

granddaughter.

22

Q.

'No, I have a

It's not time yet.'"

Do you think this type of thinking

23

from people in power is why consideration of

24

legacy in the admissions process still exists?

25

MR. ADEGBILE:

Objection.

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A.

Are you putting me in that group?

3

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

4
5
6

You were the

President of the university.
A.

No, no.

Let me, if I may, point you

to the quote --

7

Q.

Sure.

8

A.

-- which is with a laugh I said, "No,

9
10

I have a granddaughter.

13

It

was a joke.

11
12

It's not time yet."

So, how do you -- so I'm trying to
figure out how you're characterizing that.
Q.

The idea that people who are in

14

charge of Ivy League universities also have

15

children, do you think that affects the leaders

16

of these institutions' decisions to perpetuate

17

the consideration --

18

A.

19

Absolutely not.
Sorry.

I usually don't talk over

20

people, but when it's really absurd, I have to

21

inter -- intervene.

22
23
24
25

Q.

No, I don't.

I'm sorry, if I can ask you one --

ask it again.
Do you think the fact that the
leaders of these institutions, who most likely
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also have children, do you think that fact is a

3

reason why legacy consideration continues today?

4

A.

I don't.

5

Q.

Why not?

6

A.

Well, I'm actually trying to remember

I really don't.

7

anyone in my experience whom I've known as a

8

president who had a child eligible for admission.

9

I don't know -- I don't know of one.

10

Q.

Well, and you talked about, you know,

11

how much alumni care about sending their children

12

to their alma maters, and it seems to me that

13

that -- those beliefs and those desires would

14

hold equally for the leaders of those

15

universities.

16

be immune from the desire to, in your words,

17

continue giving consideration to legacy students.

18

A.

And so I don't know why they would

I'm just saying that I don't think it

19

has anything to do with their personal

20

circumstances.

21

believe it or they may promote it for entirely

22

legitimate reasons that has nothing to do with

23

their own situation.

24

my children to go to institutions where I was.

25

I think they do it -- or they may

I certainly didn't advise

So, I -- I don't know.
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I mean, I

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think it isn't something to which I've given

3

consideration.

4

reaction, I find it an odd -- I find the

5

postulation of it odd because of my own

6

experience in not having known anybody whose

7

opinion was shaped because of that reason, mostly

8

because of age, I suppose.

9

age, for the most part, where their children

But I -- as you can see from my

They are beyond the

10

would have been a part of the decision-making

11

process -- their children's situation would have

12

been a part of the decision-making process.

13
14

THE WITNESS:
Q.

Excuse me.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

And it just seems

15

to me that if you look at the -- if you take

16

Brown or you take Princeton and you think about

17

who is in charge of making certain decisions, be

18

it the president or the director of admissions or

19

whoever, they have most likely -- in most cases

20

those individuals have children.

21

reason that they would stand to benefit from

22

legacy consideration, in your words.

23

And one would

And so I guess my question is whether

24

you think that these university leaders can put

25

their own personal desires aside when deciding
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whether to continue using consideration of

3

legacies, because I think I would find that -- I

4

won't -- I'll stop right this.

5

MR. ADEGBILE:

6

A.

Objection.

Well, for the most part -- I don't

7

know what the situation is at Harvard today, but

8

for the most part having graduated from the

9

university is not a requirement to be in the

10

leadership position, for the most part.

11

I not only did not go to Brown, I had

12

never even been to Brown before I was announced

13

as the incoming president.

14

So there may be some who feel that

15

way in the leadership group, but the question as

16

whether it governs, I don't -- I don't know.

17

suppose that would depend on the institution and

18

on the era.

I

I don't know.

19

MR. CONNOLLY:

Shall we take a break?

20

MR. ADEGBILE:

Sure.

21

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Going off the

22

record -- going off the record.

23

12:21.

The time is

24

(A break was taken from 12:21 p.m. to

25

1:19 p.m.)
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Q.

And how come?

3

A.

Because the reality that I have

4

certainly experienced is that in order to be

5

considered, all applicants have to be qualified.

6

But because there's so many highly qualified

7

students, certainly a surfeit of students that

8

the university can accommodate, that judgments

9

have to be made about the class.

10

And among the judgments one can make

11

with a very qualified group of individuals is

12

that if you have a student who happens to be a

13

children of an employee, it's perfectly

14

appropriate to acknowledge that that could be a

15

good thing in the mix.

16

And, frankly, I've seen the children

17

of the lowest paid workers, for example, admitted

18

to universities and the boost that that gives --

19

gives to the campus when that happens is -- is a

20

wonderful thing to see and very advantageous to

21

the university.

22

small number always admitted.

23

Q.

But it's a rare -- it's a very

If you'd turn the page back to

24

page 21, four lines up from the bottom starting

25

with, "That is."

Can you read -- can you read

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that sentence for me?
A.

"That is, eliminating consideration

4

given to the children of faculty and staff would

5

be unlikely to yield any meaningful benefit to

6

campus diversity while it would threaten to

7

impose substantial costs in terms of faculty and

8

staff morale."

9

Q.

Have you ever seen that situation

10

where denying the child of a faculty member

11

caused morale to decrease among the faculty?

12

A.

I've seen situations where they were

13

denied and it caused faculty, parents in

14

particular, to either leave or certainly to be

15

disheartened.

16

department wants badly to retain a very important

17

faculty member, department very quickly becomes

18

disheartened by the action of the university.

19

Q.

And in a situation in which a

Do you think this idea hold -- would

20

hold merit outside of the university context?

21

So, for example, do you think companies should

22

consider whether the child of a senior executive

23

can get a job at that company?

24

that's something that should be considered?

25

MR. ADEGBILE:

Do you think

Objection.

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A.

I know it is considered.

3

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

4

You've seen it at

companies?

5

A.

Oh, yes.

6

Q.

And do you think that's a good thing?

7

MR. ADEGBILE:

Objection.

8

A.

I don't think it's deleterious.

9

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

10

A.

In companies where outstanding work

Why not?

11

is valued, I would say it's no different from a

12

university where outstanding achievement is

13

valued.

14

survive if they don't perform at the requisite

15

level.

16

unlikely to be appointed, from what I've seen.

17

Also, from my vantage point, it's been

18

de minimis, as it is in universities.

And that is, they are unlikely to

And if they're not qualified, they're

19

MR. CONNOLLY:

20

THE COURT REPORTER:

What exhibit is this?
Four.

21

(Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)

22

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Exhibit Number 4

23

is a copy of your rebuttal report.

24

ready, could you turn to page 9, please.

25

When you're

Six lines down towards the right side
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there is a sentence that starts with, "For

3

example."

4

three sentences worth.

Can you -- I'd like you to read about
And I'll let you know --

5

A.

Stop me when I --

6

Q.

Okay.

7

A.

"For example, during my time at

8

Brown, I was involved in situations where I tried

9

to recruit a new professor or faculty member to

10

the school.

11

child near college age, the individual would ask

12

whether their child would be able to go to Brown.

13

If we did not see a possibility of admitting

14

their child based on a preview of their

15

qualifications, the recruit often chose to go to

16

a different institution."

17

Q.

Inevitably, if that individual had a

So if I'm understanding you right,

18

when Brown would be engaged in the recruitment

19

process for faculty, it would often take a look

20

at the professor's child and make a determination

21

about whether that child was likely to be

22

admitted to Brown?

23
24
25

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

Keep in mind, when somebody is making

a decision to move let's say all the way across
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the country or wherever, and they want to know

3

whether or not the likelihood is that their child

4

would be eligible to be considered, it's not

5

difficult to do.

6

If you can look at a child's

7

qualifications and, for example, if that child

8

happened to have low grades and a poor profile,

9

it would be pretty clear that they wouldn't be

10

likely to be looked on favorably by -- in the

11

admission process, given the pool of applicants

12

that we have.

13

So it's possible to look at their

14

qualifications and say, "It doesn't look very

15

likely that they would compete with the pool of

16

applicants that we have."

17

Sure.

Only if the applicant -- the

18

candidate wanted to know that and it was going to

19

be critical in their decision-making process.

20

Q.

Then would Brown essentially ask for

21

some basic facts about the student, like GPA,

22

test scores, extracurricular --

23

A.

Typically you'd get a transcript.

24

Q.

Uh-huh.

25

A.

Sure.
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Q.

Do you know if Harvard does this?

3

A.

I have no idea.

4

Q.

And in your experience, are you aware

5

of a professor -- and I'll caution that I'm not

6

interested in the name of the professor --

7

A.

Okay.

8

Q.

-- who turned down the opportunity to

9

teach at Brown because he was not given an

10

indication that his child would have a good shot

11

at getting into Brown?

12

A.

It would be hard to tell, because

13

there are a lot of different factors when people

14

make their decisions.

15

I don't recall one who said the only

16

factor was that their child would not be able to

17

go to Brown.

18

the -- that was the only factor, but I do know of

19

instances in which they did not come.

20

Q.

So I don't know whether that was

And by the statement in your report,

21

is it your testimony that you think at least one

22

of the reasons why they chose not to come to

23

Brown was because of that indication you gave

24

them?

25

A.

Yes.
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Q.

Do you know where such professors,

3

the type of institutions they would -- they would

4

go to after that?

5

League school or would they go to a state school?

6

A.

Would they go to another Ivy

I don't really know.

Typically a

7

professor who is able to go to Brown would be --

8

would have a lot of choices.

9

Q.

Did having a child of a faculty

10

member improve the learning environment at a

11

place like Brown?

12

A.

To the extent that we were able to

13

hold outstanding instructors/professors,

14

absolutely.

15

Q.

So the benefit was because of the --

16

the child's parents, that's how the university

17

benefited?

18

A.

The benefit of retention and

19

recruitment for -- because, of course, the

20

defining element of the quality of education on

21

the university campus is a composition of the

22

faculty, as well as the general environment in

23

terms of the students who are recruited.

24

have to have outstanding faculty to attract

25

outstanding students.
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So, as my mantra has always been, and

3

is today, it's about recruiting the best if you

4

want to have a very successful educational

5

environment that's -- those are the ingredients.

6

So fighting hard for the best

7

faculty, fighting hard to keep the best faculty

8

is what -- that's what great universities do.

9

It's absolutely central to their mission to do

10
11

that.
Q.

And is it -- is that mission so

12

important that the consideration of their

13

children in admitting their children to Brown

14

when they might not otherwise have gotten in,

15

does the importance of that -- of retaining those

16

faculty members justify that admission decision?

17
18

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

As I've said, the children have to be

19

qualified on the same basis as the applicant

20

pool -- the successful students in the applicant

21

pool, otherwise you'd turn them down.

22

this matter of judgment in the admission process

23

really is all about shades of difference.

24

any admission officer is going to want to make

25

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positive admission decision is made, that the

3

student is qualified to do the work.

4

As educators, you become an educator

5

because you want every young person to be

6

successful.

7

the world as an educator if you feel that you're

8

making decisions for the wrong reason and that

9

for whatever reason, as a consequence of your

10

decision, a student will fail.

11
12
13

And it's one of the worst things in

So, again, the first obligation is to
make sure that the students are qualified.
Q.

Do you recall any students, without

14

telling me their names, where the fact that his

15

or her parent was a faculty member was sort of

16

the deciding factor that got them into Brown?

17

A.

Well, since I don't sit on the

18

admission committee, it's very hard -- it's very

19

hard to say, because here's the way the process

20

would work.

21

was a person who was considering coming to Brown

22

and they had a child who was in the admission

23

pool, the -- the admission office would be

24

notified of that.

25

there, because the admission office has to be

If you were -- if you thought there

But then you'd stop short

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able to do its work with integrity.

3

then wait to see whether or not that student,

4

that child, was able to be admitted.

5

And so you'd

Because we are pretty familiar with

6

our students and we know what the standards are,

7

a preview would give you a good guess as to

8

whether or not they are in that -- in that group,

9

but it would not tell you whether or not the

10

admission committee would make the decision,

11

because the admission committee is independent

12

and they make their decisions based on the class

13

that they see, not based on whether or not it's

14

going to affect one particular part of the

15

university.

16

MR. CONNOLLY:

Should we take a

18

MR. ADEGBILE:

Sure.

19

MR. CONNOLLY:

We've been going about

21

MR. ADEGBILE:

Sure.

22

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

17

20

23

break?

an hour.

record.

Going off the

The time is 2:15.

24

(A break was taken from 2:15 p.m. to

25

2:24 p.m.)
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read it internally and then I'll ask you a --

3

A.

4

Oh, internally.

Okay.

(Witness reviewing document.)

5

A.

Okay.

7

Q.

Yeah.

8

A.

Okay.

9

Q.

And you already read part of the

10

question.

11

have you ever heard the concern that Asian

12

Americans are, quote, taking over student bodies?

6

13

Just to the end of that

answer?

A.

In your time spent in universities,

Never.

It would be wonderful to have

14

information about the author, about the

15

interviewer, because I can't find anything here

16

that indicates it.

17
18

Q.

Okay.

But it's -- no, never.
And taking a step back.

You

said Fred Hargadon is the -- was the --

19

A.

Dean.

20

Q.

-- Dean of Admissions at Princeton.

21
22
23

Can you read the second paragraph of
his answer starting with, "You don't have to be."
A.

"You don't have to be looking for

24

class presidents or captains of teams to realize

25

that a part of the culture in many Asian American
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families was not to have the child participate in

3

extracurricular activities" --

4

Do I have to go on?

5

Q.

Yes, please.

6

A.

Okay.

The whole paragraph.

-- "but largely to devote

7

himself to and concentrate on academics.

8

no doubt that that's an extremely positive

9

feature.

It's very cultural.

There's

Asian Americans

10

put a very high premium on education and doing

11

well.

12

diversity in terms of energy level outside the

13

classroom, of taking part in activities, that has

14

turned out for many Asian American students to be

15

a handicap.

That is, they were not going to show

16

up as well.

There are many great exceptions to

17

this, of course."

But in colleges that also put a premium on

18

Q.

19

Asian Americans?

20

A.

I think it's balderdash.

21

Q.

Did you ever hear Dean Hargadon

Do you agree with his assessment of

22

express these sort of opinions while you were at

23

Princeton?

24
25

A.

I didn't interact with Fred a lot,

but I never heard him express these opinions.
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Had I heard him, I would have certainly

3

challenged these notions.

4

his ever saying it in my presence.

5

typically meet.

6

Q.

But I don't remember
But we didn't

In your experience teaching at a --

7

and working at a variety of Ivy League schools,

8

are Asian American students any less personable

9

than other -- than students of other racial

10

groups?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

In your experience, do Asian American

13

students tend to participate in fewer

14

extracurricular activities than other students?

15

A.

I don't know the data on it, but as

16

a -- I would say generally they are very similar

17

to other students on -- on the campus in their

18

interests.

19

(Exhibit 8 marked for identification.)

20

MR. CONNOLLY:

Exhibit 8 is a copy of

21

the Expert Report of Richard Kahlenberg.

22

you know, it's very long.

23

there's only one to two pages I want you to look

24

at.

25

And as

I will point you --

Page 35, please, of his expert report.
A.

I don't have it.
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admission was a good way for us to maintain our

3

standing.

4

profile of the university over time, it has

5

become more and more selective over time -- that

6

is to say our university, Brown -- it has become

7

more and more selective over time.

8
9
10
11

MR. CONNOLLY:

14
15

Marking as Exhibit 9

an article entitled, "Sticking to Their Own,"
from the Washington Post, October 26, 1997.
(Exhibit 9 marked for identification.)

12
13

And in truth, if you look at the

(Witness reviewing document.)
Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Could you read to

me the last two paragraphs on page 2.
A.

"Simmons, who attended both a

16

historically black college and such predominantly

17

white institutions as Harvard University and

18

Wellesley College, knows what it feels like to be

19

an outsider.

20

some of the pain of interacting with people who

21

think you are less than they or have faculty who

22

talk about your culture in ways that are

23

insulting and denigrating.'

24
25

'I know how hard it is to confront

"But, she says, the solution is not
separate housing.

'My" -- "'most people in this

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country live a very segregated existence.

3

go to church and synagogue with people in their

4

community, and live a lovely insular existence,'

5

Simmons says.

6

sustain that way of life.

7

opportunity to learn something about life and the

8

people of the world.

9

antithesis of what we do in the academy.'"

10
11

Q.

They

'But colleges are not set up to
It's supposed to be an

Segregated housing is the

Do you still hold this view about the

problems with segregated housing on campus?

12

A.

I do.

13

Q.

And how come?

14

A.

How come.

It goes back to the

15

purpose of education, as I see it, to have the

16

opportunity to learn about things outside of what

17

we know is the single most important thing about

18

what we do in the academy.

19

And so, you know, I've been very

20

outspoken on this point and very consistent on

21

this point for all of my career, including when

22

students propose and promote the idea to me.

23

very direct about my opposition to it.

24
25

MR. CONNOLLY:

I'm

Shall we take another

quick break before I go into another section?
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3

MR. ADEGBILE:

THE COURT REPORTER:

MR. ADEGBILE:

7

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

9
10

record.

13

Sure.
Going off the

The time is 3:16.
(A break was taken from 3:16 p.m. to
3:26 p.m.)

11
12

Do you want to

go off the record?

6

8

How are you

doing for time?

4
5

Sure.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Media Number 6.

On the record at 3:26.
Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Do you support

14

giving preferences in the admission process to

15

the children of individuals who donate to that

16

university?

17
18

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

I support considering those students

19

if they are qualified in the context of the pool,

20

the admission pool.

21

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

How would you

22

support, quote, considering the fact that their

23

parent donated to the university?

24

A.

How would I consider them?

25

Q.

Yeah.

Would it be a negative?

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3

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

Would it be a negative?

Well, there

4

is -- there is no negative if you are in the

5

applicant pool and you're highly qualified,

6

there's no particular negative, period.

7

there's no negative associated with being the

8

child of a parent who has donated to the

9

university.

10

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

And, no,

So when you say

11

you would consider this fact, is it your

12

testimony that it's okay for a school like

13

Harvard or Brown to give an admissions tip to

14

someone whose parent donated to the university?

15

A.

If they're high --

16

MR. ADEGBILE:

17

THE WITNESS:

18
19
20

A.

Objection.
Sorry.

If they are highly qualified, there

is no reason not to admit them.
Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

And you would be

21

fine if Harvard gave, quote, consideration to the

22

fact that such students had their parents donate

23

to the school?

24
25

A.

As long as they did not donate for

the purpose of getting their children in.
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long as there was sufficient distance between

3

those actions, I would feel fine about it,

4

provided that the student was as qualified as the

5

normal pool required.

6
7

Q.

expert report.

8

A.

9
10

If you could pull out your rebuttal

What number is it?
MR. ADEGBILE:

second.

I'll tell you in a

Four.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

three -- okay.

13

order.

Excuse me.

14

it is.

Okay.

One, two,

Missed it.

Four is somewhere else out of
One, two, three -- oh, there

15

A.

Okay.

16

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

If you could turn

17

to the bottom of page 7, please.

18

the first sentence of paragraph 17?

19

A.

Can you read

"Nor is it illegitimate to give some

20

consideration in admissions to the likelihood

21

that an applicant or his family will lend

22

financial support to the university."

23
24
25

Q.

Can you explain why you don't think

that's a problem?
A.

One of the most important factors in
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the strength of a university is its ability to

3

endure over time over a period of time that

4

allows its excellence to increase.

5

universities are, as I said, being hundreds of

6

years old, it's no accident that they are highly

7

valued and have a proven record of success,

8

because they've been able over time through the

9

support of their alumni base and others to build

10

And our

on their strengths.

11

So in private institutions --

12

especially private institutions -- that support

13

is critical to that longevity and to being able

14

to mount the courses that will inure to the

15

stature of the university.

16

And so I would say it's very

17

important for private universities to focus on

18

contributions to the university because that is

19

their -- that assures their survival and it

20

assures their being able to build and strengthen

21

their programs.

22

Q.

If you could turn to the next page,

23

page 8.

24

"Based on that experience," could you read that

25

sentences for me?

The last paragraph of 17 starting with,

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A.

"Based on that experience and my

3

knowledge at competitive peer institutions like

4

Harvard, I believe the number of applicants who

5

could benefit from an admissions consideration

6

based on the financial support of non-alumni

7

family members for the institution is very

8

small."

9

Q.

So is it your -- is it your

10

contention that only -- that the fact that a

11

student's parent donated to the university is

12

only considered in a, quote, very small number of

13

instances?

14

A.

Absolutely, in my experience.

15

Q.

So I'd like to try to maybe drill

16

down on --

17

A.

Okay.

18

Q.

-- how one would go about getting

19

that consideration.

20

So, would -- do you think a million

21

dollar donation would get that type of

22

consideration for the parent's child?

23

A.

I don't think it necessarily relates

24

to a one-time donation.

25

people who've given much more than that whose

There are certainly

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children have been denied admission.

3

So it doesn't relate so much, as I

4

say, to one donation, but it certainly does

5

relate to the support overall that a university

6

can garner from individuals who are philanthropic

7

and who are willing to support the university.

8
9
10
11

So there's no price tag associated
with it, no specific price tag associated,
because a position is not being sold.
Q.

Though, presumably someone who

12

gave -- who promised to write a check for $20 or

13

who had donated $20 would not -- his or her child

14

would not receive a, quote, consideration for --

15

A.

For $20?

16

Q.

For $20.

17

A.

Hard to say, but in my estimation,

18

that probably would not move me to, if I were in

19

Admission, to admit someone.

20

Q.

When a school such as Brown or

21

Harvard is, you know, considering whether to give

22

a, quote, consideration for a student who --

23

whose parent might have the means to donate to

24

the university, do you look at past donations or

25

the potential for future donations?
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3
4
5

MR. ADEGBILE:
A.

Objection.

At Brown you could conceivably look

at either/or or both.
Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

Can you recall

6

times, without giving me the name of the

7

individual, where an individual's student

8

received this type of consideration that you're

9

discussing?

10

A.

I can.

11

Q.

And can you tell me how much that

12
13

individual donated to Brown?
A.

I can't, because I wouldn't have

14

followed -- I wouldn't have followed the

15

amount -- the amount of money.

16

One of the things you have to

17

realize, when you make an admission decision, one

18

of the reason the decisions are good and valid is

19

because of the knowledge you have that it must be

20

a good decision, because what if, in fact, you

21

never get a donation, which is obviously

22

possible.

23

the right decision irrespective of what happens

24

in the future.

25

You want to be sure that you've made

So, remind me what the nub of your
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question was again.

3

circumstances?

4

Q.

Have I remembered

I have.

And in -- do you -- in any of these

5

circumstances, do you remember how much one of

6

the individuals donated?

7

MR. ADEGBILE:

Objection.

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

(BY MR. CONNOLLY)

At any of the

10

universities you were at, did any university ever

11

receive non-monetary donations, maybe like an art

12

collection or something like that?

13

A.

Not in my recollection.

With the --

14

with the -- I'm sorry, with this exception.

15

Influential individuals who by virtue of their

16

importance in a field, let's say, who could help

17

the university develop courses of study and

18

opportunities for students in that field because

19

of their preeminence, I mean, I would consider

20

that kind of similar.

21

Q.

How would the fact that an individual

22

has or may donate be communicated to the

23

admissions office when you were at Brown?

24
25

A.

So in order to insulate the admission

office from that process, because you never want
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an admission office to be in the business of

3

making such a determination, typically other

4

sites in the university will bring their

5

interests to bear.

6

department, they would say they're very

7

interested in a particular student being

8

admitted.

9

the university, advocacy for particular

And so if it's the physics

And so these might come from all over

10

candidates because of some good departments feel

11

they will receive as a consequence of admitting

12

that student.

13

So I had one person who brought all

14

of those things together just to inventory them

15

to make sure that they weren't coming from all

16

over the university at the admission office,

17

putting pressure on the admission office.

18

would not allow that person to advocate instead,

19

because fundamentally an admission decision is an

20

academic decision.

21

Then I

I would then have the provost, the

22

senior -- the chief academic officer of the

23

university vet the list and based on our programs

24

and our institutional priorities, I would have

25

the provost cull that list and say, "Here are the
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things that really are important to the

3

university."

4

That was by way of ensuring a

5

de minimis number of cases and the cases that

6

were consistent with our mission and our -- our

7

strategic plan.

8
9

Q.

So in other words, the admissions

department would only maybe get a handful of

10

students every year that -- where maybe the

11

development office is saying, "This is" -- "This

12

is important" -- "These four students are

13

important for us"?

14

A.

Yeah.

And if -- they would get

15

something from the provost that said, "These

16

cases are important, but make the decision on the

17

basis of whether or not they are qualified.

18

they are qualified, it could be important to our

19

mission to admit these few students."

20
21

Q.

If

And then those individuals would

receive the, quote, consideration that you --

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

All right.

Do you know if that's --

24

if Harvard has a similar approach to Brown in

25

giving consideration to the children of donors?
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A.

I would doubt very seriously that

3

they do it exactly as Brown does it, because it's

4

something I created at Brown.

5

Princeton, every place that I've been that has

6

these kinds of considerations, there's some

7

process that is devised to help make sure that an

8

excessive number of students are not admitted on

9

that basis and that a lot of different people are

10
11

But at Smith, at

not making that determination.
Q.

In that quote we read, you said, "I

12

believe the number of applicants who could

13

benefit from an admissions consideration based on

14

the financial support of non-alumni family

15

members for the institution is very small," I'm

16

curious to why you -- why you highlighted

17

non-alumni family members.

18

distinction you're drawing there between

19

donations from non-alumni and donations from

20

alumni?"

21
22
23

A.

Is there a

The only distinction is that of

legacy versus non-legacy.
Q.

Right, because I -- I guess

24

presumably someone could get two forms of

25

consideration, both that his or her parents were
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legacies of Harvard and that they donated or

3

might donate in the future to Harvard.

4

a -- is that a correct formulation of that?

5

A.

Is that

I don't think that they would double

6

their chances on the basis of having those two

7

considerations in the way that I don't think that

8

having a combination of other factors would

9

double your chances.

10

So interesting, but not --

not a compelling advantage.

11

MR. CONNOLLY:

Can we take a

12

two-minute break just to make sure I have nothing

13

else in my notes to ask you about?

14

THE WITNESS:

15

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

16

record.

Sure.
Going off the

The time is 3:45.

17

(A break was taken from 3:45 p.m. to

18

3:51 p.m.)

19
20

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Media Number 7.

On the record at 3:51.

21

MR. CONNOLLY:

22

time today.

23

Thank you for your

time.

I have no further questions at this

24

THE WITNESS:

Is it something I did?

25

MR. ADEGBILE:

I have no questions.

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