Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. et al

Filing 2126

Declaration of Susan Estrich in Support of 2013 MOTION for Judgment as a Matter of Law, New Trial and/or Remittitur Pursuant to Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 50 and 59, 2054 Brief, 2053 Opposition/Response to Motion, filed bySamsung Electronics America, Inc.(a New York corporation), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit 1 to the Estrich Declaration, # 2 Exhibit 2 to the Estrich Declaration, # 3 Exhibit 3 to the Estrich Declaration, # 4 Exhibit 4 to the Estrich Declaration, # 5 Exhibit 5 to the Estrich Declaration, # 6 Exhibit 6 to the Estrich Declaration, # 7 Exhibit 7 to the Estrich Declaration, # 8 Exhibit 8 to the Estrich Declaration, # 9 Exhibit 9 to the Estrich Declaration, # 10 Exhibit 10 to the Estrich Declaration, # 11 Exhibit 11 to the Estrich Declaration, # 12 Exhibit 12 to the Estrich Declaration, # 13 Exhibit 13 to the Estrich Declaration, # 14 Exhibit 14 to the Estrich Declaration, # 15 Exhibit 15 to the Estrich Declaration, # 16 Exhibit 16 to the Estrich Declaration, # 17 Exhibit 17 to the Estrich Declaration, # 18 Exhibit 18 to the Estrich Declaration, # 19 Exhibit 19 to the Estrich Declaration, # 20 Exhibit 20 to the Estrich Declaration, # 21 Exhibit 21 to the Estrich Declaration, # 22 Exhibit 22 to the Estrich Declaration, # 23 Exhibit 23 to the Estrich Declaration, # 24 Exhibit 24 to the Estrich Declaration, # 25 Exhibit 25 to the Estrich Declaration, # 26 Exhibit 26 to the Estrich Declaration, # 27 Exhibit 27 to the Estrich Declaration, # 28 Exhibit 28 to the Estrich Declaration, # 29 Exhibit 29 to the Estrich Declaration, # 30 Exhibit 30 to the Estrich Declaration, # 31 Exhibit 31 to the Estrich Declaration)(Related document(s) 2013 , 2054 , 2053 ) (Maroulis, Victoria) (Filed on 11/9/2012)

Estrich Declaration
Exhibit 15

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

3

SAN JOSE DIVISION

4
5

APPLE INC., a California

6

corporation,

CASE NUMBER

7

Plaintiff,

8

vs

9

11-CV-01846-LHK (PSG)

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,

10

a Korean business entity,

11

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,

12

INC., a New York corporation,

13

et al.,

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Defendants.
______________________________________________________

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17

CONTINUED VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PHILIP W.

18

SCHILLER

CUPERTINO, CALIFORNIA

19

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 2012

20

VOLUME II

21

REPORTED BY:

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THOMAS J. FRASIK

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RPR, CSR No. 6961
Job No. 1554045

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25

PAGES 404 - 534
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

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NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

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SAN JOSE DIVISION

4
5

APPLE INC., a California

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corporation,

7

CASE NUMBER
Plaintiff,

8

vs

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11-CV-01846-LHK (PSG)

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,

10

a Korean business entity,

11

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,

12

INC., a New York corporation,

13

SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS

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AMERICA, LLC, a Delaware limited

15

liability company,

16
17

Defendants.
______________________________________________________

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19

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of

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PHILIP W. SCHILLER, VOLUME II, at 3 Infinite Loop,

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Cupertino, California, beginning at 1:01 p.m., and

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ending at 4:25 p.m., on Friday, November 2, 2012,

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before THOMAS J. FRASIK, Registered Professional

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Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 6961.

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Page 405
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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

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3

FOR PLAINTIFF APPLE INC.:

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5

MORRISON & FOERSTER LLP

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BY:

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425 Market Street

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San Francisco, California

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415-268-7000

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MICHAEL A. JACOBS, ESQ.

94105

[e-mail]

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APPLE INC.

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BY:

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MS 3-PAT, 1 Infinite Loop

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Cupertino, California

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408-862-4884

CYNDI WHEELER, ESQ.

95014

17
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FOR DEFENDANTS:

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QUINN EMANUEL

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BY:

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865 South Figueroa, Tenth Floor

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Los Angeles, California

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213-443-3000

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[e-mail]

MICHAEL T. ZELLER, ESQ.

90017

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MR. JACOBS:

2

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

I was involved in the choice to

3

include a number of these documents.

4

BY MR. ZELLER:

5

Q.

Do any of the attachments to Exhibit 1677, your

6

declaration, show any of the reasons why consumers

7

13:07:03

purchase Samsung devices?

8

MR. JACOBS:

9

THE WITNESS:

10

Objection.
Let me look at them again,

please.

11

13:07:20
I do not believe that any of the attachments

12

include any specific reasons directly why a Samsung user

13

may by a Samsung phone.

14

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

Prior to the time that you prepared and signed

16

this declaration we've marked as Exhibit 1677, did you

17

undertake any investigation to determine whether or not

18

Apple has in its possession studies or research showing

19

the reasons why consumers purchase any Samsung

20

smartphone?

21

A.

13:08:58

13:09:14

I do not recall looking for Samsung research

22

performed by Apple.

23

created ourselves specifically of Samsung users.

24
25

Q.

I'm not aware of any that we have

I take it you didn't ask anyone to look into

whether or not Apple had such studies or research; is

13:09:38
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Q.

And so we'll just take these one at a time.

2

Focusing your attention on the Galaxy S II AT&T device

3

you refer to in your declaration, does Apple have any

4

tests or studies showing the reasons why consumers

5

purchased that device at any time?

6
7
8
9
10

A.

13:12:49

I am not aware of any study that we have on the

reasons for purchase of a Galaxy S II AT&T customer.
Q.

Do you have any hard data or direct knowledge

as to the reasons why consumers have ever purchased that
product?

13:13:07

11

MR. JACOBS:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I have a lot of knowledge of why

13

customers purchase smartphone products, yes.

14

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

Do you know specifically why consumers purchase

16

the Galaxy SII AT&T?

17

13:13:20

5 of your declaration.

18
19
20
21

A.

It's referenced here in paragraph

Yes, I do believe I have some knowledge of why

consumers may purchase a Galaxy SII AT&T.
Q.

Do you have hard data or hard information to

13:13:39

back up what you believe is that knowledge?

22

MR. JACOBS:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
I'm sorry.

Form.
I don't know what you

24

mean by "hard data," "hard information."

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BY MR. ZELLER:

13:13:51
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Q.

Do you have specific empirical data that you

2

can point us to to support any beliefs that you have as

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to the reasons why consumers have purchased the Galaxy

4

S II from AT&T?

5

MR. JACOBS:

6

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

13:14:03

I have a great deal of

7

information from my position over the years in marketing

8

and selling phones as to why people select cellphones,

9

smartphones, including the Galaxy phone, including

10

discussions with customers, with press, product

11

reviewers, people who sell them in the channel and in

12

the stores, and a great deal of information gathered

13

from all of my time working in this business.

14

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

And those conversations pertain specifically to

16

13:14:39

the reasons consumers purchase the Galaxy S II from

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13:14:26

AT&T, the AT&T version of it?

18

A.

Certainly that was one of the products,

19

including many products that I've asked the people that

20

sell the products, you know, why people buy them, ask

21

customers.

22

Galaxy SIIs.

23

interfaces with people who either sell, market, review,

24

or use these products, including the Galaxy S II.

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Q.

13:14:55

I've spoken with customers who have had
And throughout my years I've had many

Please tell me what is the most important

13:15:13
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feature that drives consumer demand for the Galaxy S II

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AT&T version.

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MR. JACOBS:

4

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I think there are a number of

5

features that go into a customer's reason for purchasing

6

products such as the Galaxy S II, and they include

7

design, ease of use, performance, price, to list a few.

8

BY MR. ZELLER:

9

Q.

13:15:29

Which is the most important of those with

10

respect to what drives consumer demand for the Galaxy

11

S II AT&T version?

12

MR. JACOBS:

13

THE WITNESS:

13:15:58

Objection.
I don't understand your question.

14

Because, in my experience, customers have many --

15

customers have a number of reasons they purchase a

16

product, not only solely one, and each person may have a

17

different primary reason.

18

BY MR. ZELLER:

19

Q.

13:16:12

It varies by customer.

What percentage of consumers who purchase the

20

Galaxy S II, the AT&T version, purchased it because of

21

ease of use?

22

A.

23
24
25

13:16:29

I have not done a quantitative study of Galaxy

S II users for the reasons for purchase.
Q.

What percentage of those consumers purchased it

because of price?

13:16:45
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factors into the decision most all the time.
Q.

So what percentage is your testimony of the

3

number of consumers who purchased the Galaxy S II AT&T

4

version because of design, to use your term?

5

MR. JACOBS:

6

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

13:18:33

As I stated earlier, I think

7

customers don't purchase a product only solely on one

8

factor.

9

into your purchase decision, design is one of those

I think there are a number of factors that go

10

factors.

11

a hundred percent, at least consider design in their

12

purchase.

13

others, I don't know.

14

study of that.

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BY MR. ZELLER:

16

Q.

And I think most everybody, which is close to

13:18:47

Whether what ranking it is relative to
I've not done a quantitative

13:19:05

So it's true that with respect to these factors

17

that you mentioned, design, ease of use, performance,

18

price and any other factors, you can't put them into a

19

rank order in their importance to consumers?

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MR. JACOBS:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

13:19:20

Are we talking specifically only

22

about the Galaxy S II from AT&T?

23

BY MR. ZELLER:

24

Q.

Correct.

25

A.

I do not know the ranking of those elements to

13:19:28
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Galaxy S II users because I've not done a quantitative

2

study of that.

3
4
5

Q.

And I take it you don't know which one is the

most important among the ones you mentioned; correct?
A.

I do not know on average in a quantitative

6

study across all the users who purchased it what would

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13:19:41

average out as the most important, no.

8
9

Q.

One factor that you described was what you

called "ease of use."

10

terminology?

11

A.

What do you mean by that in your
13:20:02

Ease of use is a broad term that covers the

12

interface between the product and the user.

This is my

13

lay personal definition.

14

what appears on the screen and how you interact with it

15

in the case of a phone, the features it has, and the

16

steps it takes to utilize those features all go into

17

ease of use.

18

Q.

Anything else?

19

A.

I'm sure there's a lot more that goes into it.

That often is about the --

20

If you'd like me to take some time, I can try to think

21

of every possible element that goes into ease of use.

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13:20:25

It's a very broad topic.

23

Q.

13:20:41

Well, I'm trying to understand how you're using

24

the term so, I mean, is that a complete answer in terms

25

of how you're using it or is there more?

13:20:58
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A.

Again, my -- as I described, it's a very broad

2

term that covers many things.

Most commonly, it's known

3

for how you interact with a device.

4

began with computers, people talk about computers being

5

easy to use, and that meant how the user interacts with

6

the software but it can also include the input devices,

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in case there's buttons and switches, the interaction

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between hardware and software, the setup experience, the

9

ability to access advanced features and what are very

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visible and exposed versus ones you have to study to

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learn to use.

12

Q.

And often -- it

13:21:21

13:21:41

It's, again, a very broad industry term.

Another term that you used as a factor was

13

"performance."

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"performance."

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A.

Please the tell me what do you mean by

Performance, again, is a very broad term.

It

16

can deal with the speed of a device, it can -- deals

17

with how fast it is to access and use features; it also

18

can relate to network performance, things outside of the

19

device that it interfaces to; deals with things such as

20

the time it takes to start up a device, the time it

21

takes to wake up the device, the time it takes to

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perform actions.

23

you might not know anything of performance but actually

24

are related such as battery life are often considered

25

elements of performance to many users.

13:21:59

13:22:21

It can also deal with elements such as

Those are a few

13:22:41
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examples.

2
3

Q.

Then you used the term "design" as a factor.

What do you mean by "design"?

4

A.

5

things.

6

shape of it, the color of it, the materials that are

7

used, the size, the weight.

8

other elements as well.

9

software.

10

Q.

Design is a very broad term that covers many
A few examples are how something looks, the

13:22:55

I'm sure there are many

It includes both hardware and

Focusing on the reasons why consumers purchased

11

at any time the Galaxy S II, this AT&T version that

12

we've been discussing, does the choice of carrier factor

13

13:23:14

into the decision of the consumer?

14

MR. JACOBS:

15

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

Speaking specifically about the

16

Samsung Galaxy S II, I haven't done a study to say

17

exactly what -- the extent of what things all

18

contributed to users' decisions to purchase.

19

13:23:43

BY MR. ZELLER:

20
21

Q.

Generally speaking, do consumers have certain

13:24:05

preferences for certain carriers?

22

A.

I haven't done a study on carrier preference by

23

user so I can't speak quantitatively, specifically to

24

what may or may not be a study of that factor.

25

know.

I don't
13:24:26
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Q.

Do you have any knowledge or information as to

2

whether or not carrier preference has been a feature or

3

attribute that has driven consumer demand for that

4

product?

5

MR. JACOBS:

Objection.

Form.

6

Do you mean the S II AT&T?

7

MR. ZELLER:

8

THE WITNESS:

13:24:42

Correct.
I haven't done a study

9

specifically of the Galaxy S II, so I do not know to

10

what extent carrier preference played any part in a

11

purchase decision.

12

BY MR. ZELLER:

13

Q.

13:24:51

Does Apple have any tests or studies showing

14

the reasons why consumers purchased the T-Mobile version

15

of the Galaxy S II?

16

A.

13:25:07

I'm not aware of any study that we have done

17

at Apple about the specific reasons for purchase of a

18

Galaxy S II by Galaxy S II customers for T-Mobile.

19

Q.

Do you have any hard data on that subject?

20

MR. JACOBS:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

13:25:24

Again, if you could please tell

22

me what you mean by "hard data."

23

BY MR. ZELLER:

24
25

Q.

Do you have any kind of verifiable empirical

information that would allow you to say with certainty,

13:25:36
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with confidence, what the reasons are that consumers

2

have purchased the AT -- excuse me -- the T-Mobile

3

version of the Galaxy S II?

4

MR. JACOBS:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

As I also explained with the AT&T

6

version, as with the T-Mobile, I have a great deal of

7

experience over the years speaking with customers of

8

these products, with channel partners who sell them,

9

13:25:51

with press who review them, and on and on, that have

10

given me some knowledge of why customers may purchase a

11

product or how they may look at the purchase process,

12

what they think about when they're purchasing a product

13

like the Galaxy S II at T-Mobile.

14

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

What's the most important feature or reason why

16

13:26:29

consumers have purchased the T-Mobile version of the

17

13:26:13

Galaxy S II?

18

MR. JACOBS:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I believe that there isn't one

20

singular, most important reason for all customers.

21

believe there's a mix of things that a customer looks at

22

and thinks about when they purchase a smartphone product

23

like the Galaxy S II at T-Mobile.

24

BY MR. ZELLER:

25

Q.

I

The reasons why or what the most important

13:26:46

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correct?
A.

We attached the studies to the declaration in

3

support of some of the statements that we make within

4

the declaration, yes.

5

Q.

And I take it you didn't have any reason to

6

doubt or hesitate the veracity of the information that

7

you put forth and attached here to your declaration;

8

13:30:02

right?

9

A.

Every study we do has a -- has a measure of

10

its estimated accuracy based on the percentage of the

11

population surveyed and the range of responses, and you

12

try to make sure that within an acceptable range of data

13

that it is representative of the larger population and

14

therefore likely very accurate for whatever topic you're

15

asking about.

16

well-done surveys, as we do at Apple.

17

Q.

I think that's normal procedure for any

13:30:24

13:30:47

And certainly your intention in submitting this

18

declaration, along with these excerpts from the studies,

19

that the court rely on these materials; correct?

20

A.

We believe these materials are accurate that

21

we've attached and that I believe that they're very

22

representative of what we think the population at large

23

that we were interviewing in the surveys believe and we

24

13:31:07

believe that is accurate and true.

25

Q.

And why do you -- why do you have confidence in

13:31:20
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don't tell you and what they're not good for.

2

must be very mindful and careful when one does surveys.

3

BY MR. ZELLER:

4

Q.

So one

Do you have the authority, as part of your

5

position here at Apple, to ask others to conduct surveys

6

and studies as to the reasons why consumers purchase

7

particular products?

8
9
10
11

A.

13:32:52

Yes, I can ask our team to conduct surveys to

ask questions about why customers may purchase a
particular product.
Q.

13:33:14

You could have done that in connection with the

12

reasons why it is that consumers purchase Samsung

13

devices; correct?

14

MR. JACOBS:

15

THE WITNESS:

16

No.

Form.

That wouldn't be very easy

13:33:24

for us to do.

17

Objection.

BY MR. ZELLER:

18

Q.

You don't have any authority to instruct others

19

to conduct surveys to determine the reasons why

20

consumers purchase Samsung devices?

21

A.

13:33:39

I have the authority to ask the research team

22

to conduct a survey.

23

nature done by Apple would be easy to do was the point

24

of my comment.

25

Q.

I don't think a survey of that

At any time here at Apple have you ever

13:33:59
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that are -- that are possible.

2

Increasingly, as you investigate those methods

3

coming from Apple to a competitor's products, those

4

methods may become less reliable and less sure in terms

5

of their potential results.

6

inclined to do that research because I would less trust

7

the veracity of them as being done from a competitor.

8

BY MR. ZELLER:

9

Q.

So I would not be as

13:37:01

Was there in fact a specific reason why you did

10

not ask anyone to undertake a survey as to the reasons

11

why consumers purchased Samsung devices prior to the

12

time that you signed your declaration which we've marked

13

as Exhibit 1677?

14
15

MR. JACOBS:

17

Object and instruct not to answer

on work product and attorney-client privilege grounds.

16

13:37:17

13:37:34

You can answer that to the extent there was
some nonprivileged reason that you didn't do something.

18

THE WITNESS:

19

time.

20

None that I can think of at this

BY MR. ZELLER:

21

Q.

13:37:49

Are you able to tell us what the five most

22

common and important reasons are for why consumers

23

purchased the T-Mobile version of the Galaxy S II?

24

MR. JACOBS:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I can tell you based on my

13:38:15
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experience and discussions with customers, reviewers,

2

general partners and others what I believe some of the

3

most common reasons that a customer might purchase a

4

Samsung Galaxy II from T-Mobile, if you would like those

5

reasons.

6

BY MR. ZELLER:

7
8

Q.

13:38:41

Can you tell me the most important in rank

order?

9

MR. JACOBS:

10

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I have not done a quantitative

11

study to rank order by percentage the reasons that a

12

customer purchases a Galaxy S II from T-Mobile.

13

13:38:51

BY MR. ZELLER:

14

Q.

Beyond what you mentioned previously in

15

connection with the AT&T version of the Galaxy S II

16

where you named design, performance, ease of use and

17

price, do you know of any other factors that have gone

18

into the reasons why consumers have purchased the Galaxy

19

S II T-Mobile version specifically?

20

MR. JACOBS:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

13:39:06

13:39:30

In addition -- I cannot think of

22

any other reasons off the top of my head at this moment

23

in addition to those.

24
25

Those are some of the most important reasons
customers choose these products.

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BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

Can you tell me what percentage of consumers

3

consider price to be an important factor in the purchase

4

of their T-Mobile version of the Galaxy S II?

5

A.

I cannot tell you an exact percentage that

6

customers chose price when purchasing a Galaxy S II from

7

T-Mobile because we have not done a quantitative study

8

13:40:02

to give exact percentages of that.

9

Q.

Well, you haven't done a qualitative study at

10

all on that subject; correct?

11

MR. JACOBS:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

13:40:26
Form.

We have not done a quantitative

13

or qualitative study of Samsung Galaxy S II from

14

T-Mobile purchasers.

15

BY MR. ZELLER:

16

Q.

13:40:39

And I take it you can't provide for me any

17

information on a percentage basis as to the number of

18

consumers who purchased that product for a given reason;

19

is that true?

20

A.

In order to provide a percentage, I would need

21

to do a quantitative study, which we have not done, of

22

13:41:01

Galaxy S II T-Mobile purchasers.

23

Q.

Does Apple have any test or study showing the

24

reasons why consumers purchased the Galaxy S II Epic 4G

25

Touch, which is referenced there in paragraph 5 of your

13:41:26
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declaration?

2

A.

I do not believe we have done a study of

3

reasons for purchase of a Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch from

4

Sprint at Apple.

5

Q.

Do you have any direct knowledge as to what the

6

most important reason is as to why consumers have

7

13:41:44

purchased that product?

8
9

A.

I do not believe there was one simple most

important reason.

As stated before, I believe there are

10

a number of reasons that go into consumers purchase of

11

smartphones and I believe I already outlined a list of

12

many of those important factors that a customer

13

considers.

14

Q.

13:42:03

And those are the ones you mentioned previously

15

in connection with the AT&T version of the Galaxy S II;

16

right?

17

A.

13:42:21

I believe the reasons a customer purchases a

18

Galaxy S II and the factors they consider are similar

19

across all the carriers, including Sprint.

20

Q.

Does Apple have any test or study showing the

21

reasons why consumers have purchased at any time the

22

Galaxy S II Skyrocket that's referenced there in

23

13:42:39

paragraph 5 of your declaration?

24
25

A.

I'm not aware that Apple has done a study of

Galaxy S II Skyrocket from AT&T customers' buying

13:43:10
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preferences.

2

Q.

You address some additional phones in paragraph

3

6 of your declaration.

4

does Apple have any tests or studies showing the reasons

5

why consumers purchased the Droid Charge?

6

A.

So focusing on those phones,

13:43:37

I'm not aware of a study that Apple has done

7

for the specific reasons for purchase for a Droid

8

Charge.

9

Q.

Or the Galaxy Prevail?

10

A.

I am not aware of a study that Apple has done

11

the reasons customers may have purchased a Samsung

12

13:43:57

Galaxy Prevail.

13

Q.

Or the Galaxy S 4G?

14

A.

I'm not aware of a study that Apple has done

15

for the specific reasons for purchase for a Samsung

16

Galaxy S 4G.

17

Q.

Or for the Showcase?

18

A.

I'm not aware of a study that Apple has done

19

for the specific reasons for purchase for a customer of

20

the Galaxy -- Samsung Galaxy Showcase.

13:44:11

21

Q.

13:44:27

By the way, from time to time Apple commissions

22

or engages third parties to do research on its behalf;

23

is that true?

24

A.

25

Apple works with third parties to often

purchase research they have already done or to assist us

13:44:46
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THE WITNESS:

There may be studies that Apple

2

has of why someone has ever purchased a Samsung device

3

of any kind.

4

have read one.

5

BY MR. ZELLER:

6

Q.

I don't want to state either way.

I may

I do not recall at this moment.
13:47:32

I take it that in the declaration that you're

7

offering in this case you're not relying on such

8

studies; is that true?

9

A.

The studies specifically in support of the

10

statements made in the declaration are the ones that are

11

provided and not others not provided to the best of my

12

knowledge, yes.

13

Q.

13:47:44

And the ones that are attached to your

14

declaration, as we talked about earlier, are studies

15

about the reasons why consumers purchase Apple products;

16

right?

17

A.

13:47:55

The studies attached to my declaration are

18

specifically studies about Apple customers and their

19

purchase of Apple products.

20

Q.

Focusing on the phones that are mentioned

21

specifically in paragraphs 5 and 6 of your declaration,

22

are you aware of any third-party research or studies

23

that have been done into the reasons why consumers

24

13:48:09

purchased those products?

25

A.

I can't speak to the world of studies that have

13:48:29
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been done.

I'm not aware of a study that I can recall

2

at this moment specifically on these phones done by any

3

third party.

4

Q.

Does Apple have in its possession, whether it's

5

a study that it's done or done by a third party, any

6

data showing the reasons why consumers purchase any

7

Galaxy Tab device?

8
9
10
11

A.

13:48:49

I do not recall any studies that Apple has in

its possession for specific reasons a customer purchased
a Galaxy Tab device.
Q.

13:49:12

Does Apple have any test or studies showing

12

whether consumers who purchased the Galaxy S II

13

Skyrocket would have bought another Android device as

14

opposed to an Apple device if the Galaxy S II Skyrocket

15

product was not available?

16

MR. JACOBS:

17

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

13:49:37
Form.

I do not recall seeing any survey

18

that explained why the -- what a purchaser of a Galaxy

19

S II Skyrocket might have purchased had they not had --

20

not purchased a Galaxy S II Skyrocket.

21

BY MR. ZELLER:

22

Q.

13:49:55

Do you have any surveys or consumer research

23

showing that if the Galaxy S II Skyrocket was not

24

available, those consumers would have purchased an Apple

25

iPhone instead?

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MR. JACOBS:

2

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

I do not recall seeing a survey

3

that asked consumers of the Galaxy Skyrocket SII what

4

they would have purchased if it had not been in

5

existence.

6

BY MR. ZELLER:

7

Q.

13:50:33

Does Apple have any test or study showing

8

whether consumers who purchased the T-Mobile version of

9

the Galaxy S II would have purchased an Apple device as

10

opposed to some other Android device if the T-Mobile

11

version of the Galaxy S II was not available?

12

A.

13:50:50

I do not recall seeing or reading any survey

13

that Apple has where a Galaxy S II for a T-Mobile

14

customer was asked about what they would purchase if it

15

did not exist.

16
17
18

Q.

13:51:13

Is the same true with respect to the Galaxy

S II Epic 4G Touch?
A.

I also do not recall reading any survey where

19

the user of the Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch was asked what

20

they would have purchased had it not existed.

21

Q.

Is the same true for the AT&T Galaxy S II?

22

A.

13:51:26

I also do not recall reading any survey where a

23

user of a Galaxy S II from AT&T was asked what they

24

would purchase if it did not exist.

25

Q.

Is the same true for the Droid Charge?

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A.

I also do not recall reading any survey that

2

Apple has where a customer of the Droid Charge was asked

3

what they would purchase if it did not exist.

4

Q.

Is the same true of the Galaxy Prevail?

5

A.

I also do not recall reading any survey that

6

Apple has where the customer of a Galaxy Prevail was

7

13:51:56

asked what they would purchase if it did not exist.

8

Q.

Is the same true for the Galaxy S 4G?

9

A.

I also do not recall reading any survey that

10

Apple has that asked customers of a Samsung Galaxy S 4G

11

what they would have purchased if it did not exist.

12

Q.

Is the same true for the Showcase?

13

A.

13:52:13

I also do not recall reading any survey

14

where -- that Apple has where a customer of the Samsung

15

Showcase was asked what they would purchase if it did

16

not exist.

17
18
19

Q.

13:52:31

Is the same true for any Samsung Galaxy Tab

devices?
A.

I do not recall seeing any Apple survey where

20

the customer of a Galaxy Tab was asked what they would

21

purchase if it did not exist.

22

Q.

13:52:47

Do you have any knowledge or information as to

23

what percentage of consumers who purchased the Galaxy

24

S II Skyrocket would have purchased an iPhone if the

25

Galaxy S II Skyrocket was not available?

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2

Q.

And if I asked you the same question about any

Galaxy Tab device, you'd give me the same answers?

3

A.

Yes, I believe I would.

4

Q.

And, in fact, if I asked you any questions

5

about any Samsung device, you'd give me the same

6

answers?

7

A.

14:08:45

With such a broad statement, could you please

8

restate the question in total just to be sure I get it

9

right?

10

Q.

Sure, absolutely.

Do you have a percentage of

11

consumers who purchased any Samsung device who would

12

have purchased an Apple device had that product not been

13

14:08:55

available?

14

A.

We have not studied customers who have

15

purchased a Samsung device of any kind that I can recall

16

where we asked what they would have purchased from Apple

17

if that device did not exist.

18

MR. ZELLER:

19

Thank you.

20

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

21

number one.

Okay.

14:09:20

Now is a good time.

This marks the end of disk

14:09:35

We are going off the record at 2:09 p.m.

22

(Recess held.)

23

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

This marks the beginning of

24

disk number two and we're going back on the record at

25

2:18 p.m.

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attributes?

2

MR. JACOBS:

3

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

This question that we've

4

represented here on this chart is specifically only to

5

attractive appearance and design and how important that

6

was to the customer.

7

asked other features and where they could similarly rank

8

them, and those are comparable.

9

researcher, look at those, but that isn't what this

10

There were other questions that

You can then, as a

chart is.

11

14:25:49

BY MR. ZELLER:

12

Q.

14:26:07

Do you know what the relative ranking of

13

features was in terms of overall percentage of who said

14

a given attribute was very important?

15

A.

In order to answer completely your question, I

16

would need to go back to the original survey, look at

17

each question, and then compile an answer.

18

recall off the top of my head that attractive appearance

19

and design was very high amongst all the questions that

20

were asked and responses they gave, it was one of the

21

highest.

22

14:26:21

their relative distribution of each.

23

Q.

I simply

14:26:40

I don't recall exactly each one of them and

Were the iPhone buyer respondents who were

24

surveyed in these surveys shown here in PDX 10.1 asked

25

verbatim the question about "importance of attractive

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appearance and design," are those the actual words that

2

were used in the questioning to the respondents?

3

A.

I believe so, but I would have to look back at

4

the exact methodology report to verify that.

5

best of my knowledge, I believe that is the case.

6
7
8
9

Q.

To the
14:27:20

Was this phrase "attractive appearance and

design" defined to any of the survey respondents?
A.

I do not believe the terms "attractive

appearance" or "design" were further defined for the

10

respondents.

11

Q.

12
13
14
15

14:27:43

Did these surveys define any more specifically

what was meant by "attractive appearance and design"?
A.

I do not know if there was any more definition

provided respondents around those terms.
Q.

In your view, does this study or group of

14:28:00

16

studies that are summarized here show the relative

17

importance of attractive appearance and design of the

18

hardware as opposed to iOS?

19

A.

I believe the response customers provide to

20

this question regarding attractive appearance and design

21

is representative of the entire product, the iPhone in

22

this case, its combination of hardware and software.

23

Q.

And nothing more specific than that?

24

A.

That is my belief.

25

Q.

I direct your attention to Attachment 2.

14:28:31

This

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pick, they're looking at the thickness and weight, a

2

number of factors all go into the appearance and design

3

that they consider.

4

Q.

And do you have any hard data that would allow

5

you to say that any of those features of the design or

6

appearance is more important than others --

7
8
9

MR. JACOBS:

Objection.

14:43:58

Form.

BY MR. ZELLER:
Q.

-- to the consumer in the purchasing decision,

10

or is it all such a mixture that there's no way of

11

separating them, in your view?

12

A.

14:44:14

I don't believe consumers only pick one

13

attribute of a product's appearance and design as most

14

important over some other elements.

15

combination of a few, the most visible and distinctive

16

ones, that often make the most impact on customers.

17

Q.

I think it's a
14:44:31

Would you be able to tell me the percentage of

18

consumers who considered the flat glass front of the

19

iPhone 5 to be the factor that really drove their

20

purchasing decision?

21

A.

14:44:54

I don't believe that we have done a

22

quantitative study of the relative weighting of

23

different pieces of design with consumers.

24
25

Q.

And is the same true of the other elements that

you mentioned, the bezel, the overall shape, the

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materials, including aluminum and the thickness and

2

weight?

3

A.

I don't believe we've done a study of iPhone 5

4

buyers to determine the individual elements of the

5

appearance and design and how they would rank them

6

relative to each other.

7

Q.

14:45:34

Has Apple done any studies or surveys of

8

iPhone 4 or 4S purchasers such that you would be able to

9

tell us from the consumer perspective which of these

10

features of the appearance and design that you mentioned

11

was the most important in their purchasing decision?

12

A.

14:46:00

I am not aware of a study that we have done of

13

iPhone 4 users asking them to weight the relative value

14

of different elements of our design of the iPhone 4.

15

Q.

And is the same true of the iPhone 3G and 3GS?

16

A.

I'm not aware of a study that we have done at

17

Apple to rank the relative importance of different

18

components of the design for iPhone 3GS or iPhone 4

19

14:46:23

customers.

20

Q.

Is the same true of the first iPhone?

21

A.

I don't recall us running a survey of iPhone --

22

original iPhone buyers and what individual elements of

23

the design that customers might rank relative to each

24

14:46:44

other.

25

Q.

So I take it with respect to these various

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factors -- I'm sorry.

2

Strike that.

With respect to these various features that

3

you've identified that are part of the appearance and

4

design, I take it you can't tell me what percentage of

5

consumers bought an iPhone because of those features

6

individually.

7

A.

14:47:27

We, through our surveys, can tell the

8

importance of the design in total to those users, not

9

individual features of the design.

10

Q.

And the studies that you're referring to that

11

show it at that level, the totality of the appearance

12

and design taken all together for the iPhones, include

13

14:47:49

the studies that are attached to your declaration?

14
15

A.

18

Could I have that question read

back?

16
17

I'm sorry.

14:48:13
Q.

Sure.

I'll try to -- I think I can simplify

it.
Focusing on the studies that you have attached

19

to your declaration, that you refer to in your

20

declaration, do any of these studies break down and show

21

what features of the appearance and design of these

22

various iPhones drove consumer demand for those phones,

23

or as you understand it these surveys simply show what

24

the totality of all those features among everything else

25

that goes into appearance and design show?

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2

product?
A.

I don't think about those elements in terms of

3

having a ranked element of performance because they are

4

one product together that the user experiences and sees,

5

and I don't think I don't think of them as individual

6

components.

7

Q.

14:56:17

Are you able to separate out those features for

8

purposes of identifying which are the most important or

9

relatively the most important for purposes of reasons

10
11

why consumers purchase a given iPhone?
A.

14:56:36

I could not easily break them out and don't

12

think that's appropriate for how customers look at a

13

product.

14

which is more important to your health, your heart, your

15

lungs or your brain, as a customer, I would say all of

16

them, they all make up me, and I wouldn't want to have

17

to pick between which one of those things I want, they

18

all make up me.

19

we're discussing all make up what customers identify as

20

the iPhone, and it's not a -- I wouldn't ask a customer

21

to break up what they in their own minds don't think of

22

as separate things.

23

Q.

As a way of analogy, if I were to ask you

14:57:00

And, similarly, I think those elements

14:57:16

So I take it you can't identify specifically

24

what features that go into the appearance and design of

25

the iPhones is the most important one to consumers; is

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2

that true?
A.

It's my statement that these -- the ones --

3

the elements I listed are all important and customers

4

consider them together in defining the design of the

5

iPhone, and they're not thought of as individual,

6

separable things to rank in importance.

7

Q.

14:57:57

So I take it that you're not able to tell me

8

what is the most important one from the consumer demand

9

perspective; is that true?

10

A.

I don't believe that of the elements I've

11

spoken that there is one to be -- they could be ranked

12

14:58:15

by relative importance.

13

Q.

And I take it from your answer you wouldn't be

14

able to rank the five most important features of the

15

appearance and design that drive consumer demand for any

16

iPhone product; correct?

17

A.

14:58:34

I believe I've provided the ones that I believe

18

are the most important.

19

themselves, but I gave them because they're much more

20

important than other things that are smaller and of less

21

importance.

22

screen, the overall shape of it, the iPhone with its

23

rounded corners, its icons on its dock as in the top

24

most important features of design and attractiveness.

25

And they are not ranked within

14:58:55

So, for example, I listed the large front

I did not rank other elements of design

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attractiveness that are, in my belief, not as important.

2

The types of screws we use in the bottom of the iPhone

3

to attach it together are parts of design but I don't

4

think those are as important to customers.

5

the speaker grill holes on the bottom for your

6

microphone and speaker I don't think are as important as

7

the elements I've listed.

8
9

The shape of
14:59:31

So I did list elements that I think are very
important, very visual, very influential to customers'

10

decision to purchase an iPhone and why they find it

11

attractive.

12

Q.

14:59:46

And what empirical data can you point us to

13

with respect to the relative importance of these

14

features of appearance and design that you testified to

15

are the most important?

16

A.

15:00:09

The data upon which I have formed my opinion on

17

some of the elements of attractive appearance and design

18

are based on our experience creating the product,

19

showing it to customers, providing it to reviewers and

20

press, talking to customers and hearing their input on

21

what they like about it and on and on, many actual

22

pieces of information that we provide -- that have been

23

provided to us.

24

Q.

Is it supported by any consumer surveys?

25

A.

I am not aware of any consumer survey that we

15:00:29

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have done at Apple that studies individual subcomponents

2

of the design for the relative ranking of importance.

3

Q.

Focusing on the first iPhone, was the way that

4

the product worked more important to consumers as part

5

of their purchasing decision than the way it looked?

6

MR. JACOBS:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

15:01:14

Form.

I believe that a number of

8

factors went into importance of the original iPhone and

9

its innovation to consumers when we launched it.

10

appearance and design, the way it, quote, looked,

11

certainly was an extremely important factor in what

12

customers thought about it, what it did for them and the

13

features it had was also of great importance to

14

customers as well.

15

BY MR. ZELLER:

16

Q.

The
15:01:40

15:02:06

Do you have any empirical data or survey

17

information that would allow you to provide testimony as

18

to whether consumers considered the look of the first

19

iPhone to be more important than how it worked?

20

MR. JACOBS:

21

THE WITNESS:

Object to the form.

15:02:31

I did not say that the look of

22

the iPhone was more important than how it worked.

23

said they were both important to consumers when we

24

launched the original iPhone.

25

I

BY MR. ZELLER:

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specific to this context or go back and list out what I

2

said.

3

iPhone users said in this survey about rating ease of

4

use, and I don't recall the exact words previously in

5

this deposition.

6

Because now we're talking specifically about what

Q.

I'd have to hear them again.

15:08:07

Please tell me what is your understanding of

7

what "ease of use" means in the context of these surveys

8

that you're relying upon and discussing in your

9

declaration.

10

A.

Sure.

In this survey, we are asking recent

11

iPhone purchasers -- so in this time, in 2010, we're

12

asking iPhone purchasers of the iPhone 3GS and

13

iPhone 4 -- to tell us how ease of use -- what they

14

thought of ease of use relative to their purchase of

15

an iPhone and to rank it as very important, somewhat

16

important, neither important, somewhat unimportant, very

17

unimportant and don't know.

18

they were given in this question.

19

number of factors went into these customers'

20

consideration of ease of use.

15:08:20

21

15:08:46

Those are the categories
And I believe a

15:09:01

First of all, specifically, this is ease of

22

use of an iPhone, so they're talking specifically about

23

their experience using an iPhone.

24

about the multi-touch experience, because that is one of

25

the key elements of owning an iPhone, is it's a

So that means it's

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multi-touch smartphone.

So they're talking about using

2

their fingers on the screen to access the applications

3

the iPhone comes with.

4

application on the iPhone is the Safari browser we were

5

just talking about, so using the Safari browser to tap

6

on web links to go to web pages, to use fingers to

7

scroll up and down on the webpage, to doubletap on a

8

story and have the text zoom up and fill the screen, on

9

and on, scroll to the end of the page and how it bumps.

For example, a popular

10

Those are all elements of what creates the experience

11

that a customer might consider easy to use.

12

15:09:34

the context of an iPhone user using an iPhone.

13
14
15

Q.

15:09:51

It's all in

Any other understanding of what "ease of use"

means here, any other features?
A.

Well, there would be -- sure, there would

16

be many.

17

applications are and how they can have a home screen

18

and tap on it and swipe on it and launch applications.

19

It would be the integration of the hardware and the

20

software, to be able to hold an iPhone with one hand and

21

touch on an application in the dock and launch something

22

simply.

It's about using an iPhone and not needing a

23

manual.

Customers are always very impressed that you

24

don't need to use a manual to get a lot of functionality

25

out of your iPhone.

15:10:08

There's also our home screen and where

There are many elements that go

15:10:24

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into the experience.

2

I do think the multi-touch user interface part

3

of it is probably among the most important of all the

4

elements of how customers perceive ease of use on an

5

iPhone.

6

Q.

7
8
9

15:10:59
Any other features that go into "ease of use"

as you understand it's being used here?
A.

I'm sure there are many others.

There's how

you set up an iPhone right out of the box and start

10

using it.

It is the range of applications that it

11

comes with and your mail application and all the other

12

software that's on there, how it all works seamlessly

13

together and how it's designed to work together, how you

14

answer a phone call and make a call.

15

features that go into ease of use.

15:11:14

There are many

16

Q.

Any other features you can identify?

17

A.

15:11:33

I'm sure there are many more but, time

18

permitting, I don't -- at the moment I can't think of

19

any off the top of my head.

20
21

MR. JACOBS:

Mike, at a convenient point for

15:11:49

you, could we take another short break?

22

MR. ZELLER:

Sure.

23

MR. JACOBS:

Do it now?

24

MR. ZELLER:

Yes, now is fine.

25

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

We're going off the record

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2
3

You understand that some consumers have a
preference for Android over iOS; right?
A.

I have not researched the preference users have

4

of Android versus iOS specifically.

5

research that we've done with that specific question.

6

Q.

I don't recall a
15:48:22

So it's true that you're unable to tell me what

7

percentage of consumers purchase a given smartphone

8

because of the operating system that it uses?

9

A.

Your question treated the purchase of a phone

10

because of the operating system in a singular as if

11

that's the only feature someone is considering.

12

stated earlier, I do not believe that is the only

13

feature someone considers when they purchase a device.

14

I think customers think of a number of features

15

altogether when they make a purchase decision.

16

Q.

15:48:47

As I

15:49:01

What percentage of consumers of smartphones

17

consider the choice of operating system to be the most

18

important factor in their purchasing decision?

19

A.

I have not -- do not recall reading any survey

20

that tells what percent specifically a customer -- of

21

customers rate choice of operating system the number one

22

most important factor in purchasing a smartphone.

23

Q.

15:49:21

Do you have any empirical data or survey

24

evidence that would tell you what percentage of

25

consumers considered the operating system to be

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important in their smartphone purchasing decision?
A.

I do not recall reading survey -- any survey

3

data about the importance of one operating system versus

4

another in their purchase decision.

5
6

Q.

15:50:08

case, the "bounce patent"?

7
8

Did you review the '381 utility patent in this

THE REPORTER:

"Bounce"?

BY MR. ZELLER:

9

Q.

"Bounce."

10

A.

I'm not sure what you mean by review the

11

patent.

12

Q.

15:50:32

In connection with your declaration, in

13

preparing your declaration, did you review any Apple

14

patents?

15
16
17

A.

No, I did not read any patent documents or

15:50:43

filings.
Q.

Have you ever read a patent that's sometimes

18

called the '381 Patent?

19

Apple patent that describes a form of bounce-back.

20

A.

It's the one that -- it's an

I'm familiar with the multi-touch bounce

21

feature.

22

15:50:59

associated with that.

23

Q.

I have not read the patent documents

Focusing on the bounce feature then in iOS,

24

has Apple done any studies or surveys to determine what

25

percentage of consumers purchased an iPhone device

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2

because of that feature?
A.

I don't recall any Apple surveys that my team

3

did on the importance of an individual feature, such as

4

the bounce feature, to the purchase of the device.

5

believe in the trial there was other research

6

referenced, but nothing that I did with my team.

7

Q.

I
15:51:46

Is there any survey data or research that

8

you're relying upon in your declaration to -- that

9

relates in any way to the -- whether or not the

10

bounce-back feature is a driver of consumer demand

11

for any iPhone?

12

MR. JACOBS:

13

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

15:52:13

Form.

I -- when talking about the

14

bounce interface feature in my statements, I am

15

referring to the data regarding ease of use and my

16

knowledge that the bounce feature is a contributor to

17

the overall ease of use experience the customer has with

18

an iPhone.

19

research provided in the declaration and its

20

attachments.

21

BY MR. ZELLER:

22

Q.

15:52:30

And there's a great deal of ease of use

15:52:49

Do you know or have any specific information as

23

to the extent to which the bounce-back feature is a

24

driver of consumer demand for any iPhone product?

25

A.

Do I know?

Yes, I know that the bounce-back

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bounce-back was created for the purpose of ease of use.

2

So it isn't separate of ease of use, it is about ease of

3

use.

4
5

Q.

"Ease of use" as used in these surveys, as we

discussed, include multiple features within it; right?

6
7

It isn't a separable concept.

A.

15:58:13

Yes, there are multiple features of ease of

use, one of which is bounce-back.

8

Q.

So my question is of the specific feature of

9

bounce-back that is part of ease of use, what is the

10

extent to which the bounce-back feature specifically

11

and itself drives consumer demand for any of the

12

iPhone devices?

13

have that quantifies that percentage of consumers?

14

A.

15:58:27

Is there any information that you

It is my belief that this percentage of ease of

15

use does quantify bounce-back as a -- one of the many

16

key features of ease of use of iOS in the iPhone and is

17

representative of that value.

18

Q.

15:58:49

Are there any features that are part of ease of

19

use that you've identified in your deposition that are

20

more important than other features in terms of ease of

21

use?

22

MR. JACOBS:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
I'm sorry.

15:59:08

Form.
I don't understand

24

the idea of features of ease of use that have different

25

relative importance.

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A customer doesn't use an iPhone feature in

2

isolation of the other features, so you can't separate

3

out one from another easily, it's one experience, and

4

the bounce-back feature being a very common one that you

5

run into many times throughout a single day of use.

6

So I feel it affects every user of the iPhone on a daily

7

basis and therefore is absolutely intrinsically tied

8

with the concept of ease of use.

9

BY MR. ZELLER:

10
11
12

Q.

15:59:41

And if I ask you the same questions about the

15:59:56

pinch-to-zoom gesture, you'd give me the same answer?
A.

I believe that pinch-to-zoom is a very

13

important feature that's intrinsically tied to ease of

14

use in the experience with the iPhone as well.

15
16

Q.

And if I ask you the same question about the

16:00:15

doubletap-to-zoom, you'd give me the same answer?

17

A.

18

ease of use.

19

as we launched it, we demoed it, we showed it on TV.

20

think you can't now separate that from customers' minds

21

as a different feature of ease of use.

22

what makes up ease of use on the iPhone.

23

Q.

Doubletap-to-zoom is extremely important in
In fact, it was written about many times
I
16:00:30

It's all part of

And I take it that you can't separate out the

24

extent to which pinch-to-zoom or doubletap-to-zoom or

25

bounce-back are relatively important in relationship to

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one another in terms of what it is that drives consumer

2

demand for iPhone products?

3

A.

I certainly haven't ever separated them out.

4

I know, again, through the trial some other research was

5

provided by other people who have, but I have never done

6

that in our research, separated out these individual

7

features.

8
9
10
11

Q.

16:01:09

Are you aware of any empirical data that shows

the percentage of consumers who purchased an iPhone
product specifically because of pinch-to-zoom?
A.

16:01:27

I believe that all customers who purchase an

12

iPhone product in part value pinch-to-zoom in the total

13

experience that they want.

14

data that specifically attempts to quantify that.

15

Apple has done -- what percentage of that applies, I

16

don't recall seeing that kind of a question.

17

Q.

I don't know of any survey
But
16:01:54

Does Apple have any empirical data or survey

18

evidence that shows the extent to which consumers have

19

purchased any iPhone devices because of

20

doubletap-to-zoom?

21

A.

16:02:19

As with the other two features, I believe most

22

all iPhone users in part purchase the iPhone because of

23

one of the many features it has and has had from the

24

beginning is doubletap-to-zoom and that's critical for

25

their web-surfing experience.

But what percent that

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makes up of their total desire to have an iPhone, I do

2

not know, do not recall a survey question from Apple

3

asking that.

4

Q.

Would you consider the bounce-back feature to

5

be one of the five most important reasons why consumers

6

purchase iPhones?

7

A.

16:02:49

I don't think of these features individually

8

myself in terms of a relative importance.

The

9

experience we create in iOS and in the user experience

10

of iPhone in total has made it extremely easy to use.

11

Among the many features that we've done that are very

12

important and influential I believe is bounce-back.

13

I recall when we were working on it that,

14

without it, the experience was not nearly as good.

15

when the engineering team created bounce-back, it made a

16

dramatic difference in our usability with iPhone for all

17

of us testing it in our use every single day.

18

it has a great importance.

19

of that importance because we have not researched it

20

that way.

16:03:13

21

Q.

And
16:03:31

So I know

I can't quantify the percent

16:03:49
So it's true that you can't tell me to what

22

degree the bounce-back feature is an affirmative driver

23

of consumer demand in any sort of quantifiable way, as

24

opposed to you believe it's -- you saw some evidence

25

that its absence made a dramatic difference; is that

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Of course, price is unique with cellphones in

2

the US because with the subsidized plan model that most

3

phones are sold on, they're really all within the same

4

price range, so it's really sort of neutralized between

5

competing products.

6

are important metrics.

7

I believe quality and performance

16:05:45

So as a customer, you look at this total

8

offering and you make a value decision on whether that's

9

the product you want in total and you consider all of

10

these factors.

11

representative list for what most people are looking at.

12

BY MR. ZELLER:

13

Q.

And I think those are a pretty

16:06:01

Focusing on the features that Apple claims to

14

be patented in this case, can you tell me which of them,

15

if any, is the most important reason why consumers

16

purchase iPhones?

17
18

MR. JACOBS:

Objection.

Form.

16:06:18

Lacks

foundation.

19

THE WITNESS:

I have not done a survey of the

20

individual patent features to rank their relative

21

importance to consumers in their purchase process.

22

BY MR. ZELLER:

23

Q.

16:06:31

What percentage of consumers have purchased

24

iPhones because of the specific, individual patented

25

features that are at issue in this case?

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MR. JACOBS:

2

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Form.

I do not believe customers think

3

about only individual features when they purchase a

4

product like iPhone.

5

features together as one product.

6

customers make a purchase decision.

I believe they consider all of the
That's how I believe

7

MR. JACOBS:

8

16:07:11

Let me just ask how we doin' on the clock,

9

Excuse me just a second.

what's the total time?

10

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

11

MR. JACOBS:

12

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

13

MR. JACOBS:

14

Time on the record?

16:07:28

Time on the record.
Two hours 47 minutes.

Okay.

BY MR. ZELLER:

15

Q.

So you can't give me percentage?

16

A.

I'm sorry.

Q.

Can you tell me the percentage of consumers

17
18

16:07:36

Could you restate, percentage of

what?

19

who have purchased any iPhone products because of the

20

patented features that are at issue in this case?

21

MR. JACOBS:

22

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Form.

16:07:51

Foundation.

I would estimate that a hundred

23

percent of the customers purchase an iPhone because the

24

patented features in this case are features of the

25

iPhone.

I think these are features that matter to

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still being sold?
A.

I don't know which models are being sold with

3

what specific operating system.

4

the Samsung/Android world which operating system ships

5

with which phone.

6

Q.

It's quite confusing in

16:18:41

Well, what percentage of consumers are

7

currently buying any kind of Samsung device because of

8

bounce-back?

9

A.

As I stated earlier, I have not done a survey

10

of Samsung purchasers to ascertain what percentage of

11

individual Samsung Galaxy buyers are buying a product

12

for a feature.

13

Q.

16:18:48

Back during the time period when, according to

14

Apple, Samsung's devices had the bounce-back feature

15

with its various devices, do you believe that consumers

16

purchased those Samsung devices because it had the

17

bounce-back feature?

18

A.

16:19:12

I think -- the way I think of it is I believe

19

that if those Samsung devices did not implement

20

bounce-back in copying iOS, fewer customers may have

21

purchased them because they would have been dissatisfied

22

with the ease of use of the product.

23

customers would have chose not to buy it had it not used

24

bounce-back in combination with the other multi-touch

25

features as well.

16:19:34

So I think

So I do think there's an impact on

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DEPOSITION REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION

2
3
4
5

I, the undersigned, a California Certified
Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify:
That the foregoing proceedings were taken

6

before me at the time and place herein set forth, at

7

which time the witness was administered the oath; that

8

the testimony of the witness and all objections made by

9

counsel at the time of the proceedings were recorded

10

stenographically by me, and were thereafter transcribed

11

under my direction; that the foregoing transcript

12

contains a full, true, and accurate record of all

13

proceedings.

14

I further certify that I am neither financially

15

interested in the action nor a relative or employee of

16

any attorney or party to this action.

17
18

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date subscribed
my name, dated this 5th day of November, 2012.

19
20
21
22
23

______________________________

24

THOMAS J. FRASIK, CSR No. 6961

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