AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH ASSOCIATION, INC. et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 60

MOTION for Summary Judgment Filed by AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH ASSOCIATION, INC., AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION, INC., NATIONAL COUNCIL ON MEASUREMENT IN EDUCATION, INC. (Attachments: #1 Statement of Facts Points of Authority, #2 Statement of Facts Statement of Undisputed Facts, #3 Declaration Declaration of Jonathan Hudis, #4 Exhibit Ex. A, #5 Exhibit Ex. B, #6 Exhibit Ex. C, #7 Exhibit Ex. D, #8 Exhibit Ex. E, #9 Exhibit Ex. F, #10 Exhibit Ex. G, #11 Exhibit Ex. H, #12 Exhibit Ex. I, #13 Exhibit Ex. J, #14 Exhibit Ex. K, #15 Exhibit Ex. L, #16 Exhibit Ex. M, #17 Exhibit Ex. N, #18 Exhibit Ex. O, #19 Exhibit Ex. P, #20 Exhibit Ex. Q, #21 Exhibit Ex. R, #22 Exhibit Ex. S, #23 Exhibit Ex. T, #24 Exhibit Ex. U, #25 Exhibit Ex. V-1, #26 Exhibit Ex. V-2, #27 Exhibit Ex. W, #28 Exhibit Ex. X, #29 Exhibit Ex. Y, #30 Exhibit Ex. Z, #31 Exhibit Ex. AA, #32 Exhibit Ex. BB, #33 Exhibit Ex. CC, #34 Exhibit Ex. DD, #35 Exhibit Ex. EE, #36 Exhibit Ex. FF-1, #37 Exhibit Ex. FF-2, #38 Exhibit Ex. FF-3, #39 Exhibit Ex. FF-4, #40 Exhibit Ex. FF-5, #41 Exhibit Ex. FF-6, #42 Exhibit Ex. GG, #43 Exhibit Ex. HH, #44 Exhibit Ex. II, #45 Exhibit Ex. JJ, #46 Exhibit Ex. KK, #47 Exhibit Ex. LL, #48 Exhibit Ex. MM, #49 Declaration Declaration of Marianne Ernesto, #50 Exhibit Ex. NN, #51 Exhibit Ex. OO, #52 Exhibit Ex. PP, #53 Exhibit Ex. QQ, #54 Exhibit Ex. RR, #55 Exhibit Ex. SS, #56 Exhibit Ex. TT, #57 Exhibit Ex. UU, #58 Exhibit Ex. VV, #59 Exhibit Ex. WW, #60 Exhibit Ex. XX, #61 Exhibit Ex. YY, #62 Exhibit Ex. ZZ, #63 Exhibit Ex. AAA, #64 Exhibit Ex. BBB, #65 Exhibit Ex. CCC, #66 Exhibit Ex. DDD, #67 Exhibit Ex. EEE, #68 Exhibit Ex. FFF, #69 Exhibit Ex. GGG, #70 Exhibit Ex. HHH, #71 Exhibit Ex. III, #72 Exhibit Ex. JJJ, #73 Declaration Declaration of Lauress Wise, #74 Exhibit Ex. KKK, #75 Exhibit Ex. LLL, #76 Declaration Declaration of Wayne Camara, #77 Exhibit Ex. MMM, #78 Declaration Declaration of Felice Levine, #79 Exhibit Ex. NNN, #80 Exhibit Ex. OOO (Public Version), #81 Exhibit Ex. PPP, #82 Exhibit Ex. QQQ, #83 Exhibit Ex. RRR, #84 Exhibit Ex. SSS, #85 Exhibit Ex. TTT-1, #86 Exhibit Ex. TTT-2, #87 Exhibit Ex. UUU, #88 Declaration Declaration of Kurt Geisinger, #89 Declaration Declaration of Dianne Schneider, #90 Text of Proposed Order Proposed Order, #91 Certificate of Service Certificate of Service)(Hudis, Jonathan). Added MOTION for Permanent Injunction on 12/22/2015 (td).

EXHIBIT Z
Case No. 1:14-cv-00857-TSC-DAR

CONFIDENTIAL

Transcript of James R. Fruchterman
Date: September 8, 2015
Case: American Educational Research Assoc., Inc., et al -vPublic.Resource.Org., Inc.

Planet Depos
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
Internet: <www.planetdepos.com>

Court Reporting | Videography | Videoconferencing | Interpretation | Transcription

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

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FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

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AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH

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ASSOCIATION, INC., ET AL.,

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PLAINTIFF,
vs.

No.

1:14-CV-00857-TSC-DAR

PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,
DEFENDANT.
_____________________________

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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

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JAMES R. FRUCHTERMAN

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CONFIDENTIAL

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Tuesday, September 8, 2015

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Reported By:

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KATHLEEN WILKINS, CSR #10068, RPR-RMR-CRR-CCRR-CLR

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
2
1
2

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JAMES R. FRUCHTERMAN
BE IT REMEMBERED that on Tuesday,

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September 8, 2015, commencing at the hour of

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9:21 a.m. thereof, at FENWICK & WEST, LLP, 801

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California Street, Mountain View, California,

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before me, Kathleen A. Wilkins,

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RPR-RMR-CRR-CCRR-CLR, a Certified Shorthand

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Reporter, in and for the State of California,

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personally appeared JAMES R. FRUCHTERMAN, a

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witness in the above-entitled court and cause,

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who, being by me first duly sworn, was thereupon

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examined as a witness in said action.

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CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

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FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:

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QUARLES & BRADY LLP

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BY:

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1700 K Street, NW, Suite 825

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Washington, D.C.

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Telephone:

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E-mail:

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and

JONATHAN HUDIS, ESQ.

20006

[phone]

[e-mail]

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OBLON, MCCLELLAND, MAIER & NEUSTADT,

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L.L.P.

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BY:

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1940 Duke Street

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Alexandria, Virginia

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Telephone:

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E-mail:

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KATHERINE D. CAPPAERT, ESQ.

22314

[phone]

[e-mail]

FOR THE DEFENDANT:

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FENWICK & WEST, LLP

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BY:

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555 California Street, 12th Floor

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San Francisco, California

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Telephone:

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E-mail:

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SEBASTIAN KAPLAN, ESQ.

94104

[phone]

[e-mail]

ALSO PRESENT:
STEVE PATAPOFF, VIDEOGRAPHER

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
4
1

INDEX

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INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS

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PAGE

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EXAMINATION BY MR. HUDIS ......................9

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AFTERNOON SESSION ...........................143

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS

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8

EXHIBIT

9

Exhibit 48

DESCRIPTION

PAGE

Document entitled, ............12

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"Subpoena to Testify in a

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Civil Action"

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Exhibit 49

R. Fruchterman

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14

Curriculum Vitae, James .......21

Exhibit 50

Spreadsheet entitled, .........41

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"Patents, Trademarks and

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Copyrights of Calera

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Recognition Systems,

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Inc."

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Exhibit 51

Spreadsheet entitled, .........50

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"Patents and Trademarks

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of RAF Technology, Inc."

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Exhibit 52

Document entitled, ............68

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"Patents and Trademarks

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of Arkenstone, Inc."

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/ /

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
5
INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)

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2

EXHIBIT

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Exhibit 53A

PAGE

United States Patent No. ......69
5,470,233

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5

DESCRIPTION

Exhibit 53B

Document entitled, ............69

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"Abstract of Title for

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Application 08210239"

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Exhibit 54

Spreadsheet entitled, .........98
"Trademarks and

9
10

Copyrights of Beneficent,

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Inc."

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Exhibit 55

Bookshare website

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14

Screenshots from .............143

Exhibit 56

Document entitled, "The ......179

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Chafee Amendment:

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Improving Access to

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Information"

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Exhibit 57

Article entitled, ............185

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"Developing Information

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Technology to Meet Social

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Needs"

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Exhibit 58

Document entitled, ...........190

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"Assistive Technology for

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Visually Impaired and

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Blind People"

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
6
INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)

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2

EXHIBIT

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Exhibit 59

DESCRIPTION

PAGE

Document entitled, ...........208

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"Declaration of James

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Fruchterman in Support of

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Motion For Summary

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Judgment"

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Exhibit 60

Document entitled, ...........208
"Supplemental Declaration

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10

of James Fruchterman In

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Support of Defendant

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Intervenors' Opposition

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to Plaintiffs' Motion For

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Summary Judgment"

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Exhibit 61

Westlaw reported version .....229

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of district court opinion

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in the Authors Guild,

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Inc. versus HathiTrust,

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et al., reported at 902

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F.Supp.2d 445

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25

/ /

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
7
INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)

1
2

EXHIBIT

3

Exhibit 62

DESCRIPTION

PAGE

Lexis reported version of ....237

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the Second Circuit Court

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of Appeals decision in

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Authors Guild versus

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HathiTrust reported at

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755 F.3d 87

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Exhibit 63

Document entitled, "The ......241

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Internet Archive's Open

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Library is violating

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authors' copyrights"

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Exhibit 64

Document entitled, ...........249

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"Expert Report of James

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R. Fruchterman"

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17

EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY MARKED

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AND REFERRED TO IN THIS DEPOSITION

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EXHIBIT

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PAGE

Exhibit 34

304

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22

QUESTIONS WITNESS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER

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PAGE

LINE

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221

8

25

227

4

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
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September 8, 2015
P R O C E E D I N G S

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9:21 A.M.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Good morning.

Here

09:16:23

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begins Tape No. 1 in the video deposition of

09:20:44

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James Fruchterman in the matter of American

09:20:47

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Educational Research Association, Incorporated, et

09:20:49

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al., versus Public.Resource.Org, Incorporated, in

09:20:53

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the U.S. District Court of the District of

09:21:00

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Columbia, Case Number 1:14-CV-00857-TSC-DAR.

09:21:02

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Today's date is September 8th, 2015.

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Time on the video monitor is 9:21 a.m.

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videographer today is Steve Patapoff representing

09:21:18

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Planet Depos.

09:21:21

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place at Fenwick & West, 801 California Street,

09:21:23

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Mountain View, California.

09:21:26

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The

09:21:12

The video deposition is taking

Would counsel please voice-identify
themselves and state whom they represent.
MR. HUDIS:

09:21:15

09:21:29
09:21:31

Jonathan Hudis,

09:21:35

Quarles & Brady, LLP, for plaintiffs.

09:21:36

MS. CAPPAERT:

Katherine Cappaert from

Oblon, LLP, for plaintiffs.
MR. KAPLAN:

09:21:41
09:21:46

Sebastian Kaplan,

09:21:48

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Fenwick & West, LLP, for defendant

09:21:49

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Public.Resource.Org, Incorporated.

09:21:52

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THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Court reporter today

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:21:56

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
9
1

is Kathleen Wilkins representing Planet Depos.
Would the reporter please swear in the

2
3

witness.

09:21:56
09:21:59
09:22:01

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JAMES R. FRUCHTERMAN,

09:22:11

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having been duly sworn,

09:22:11

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was examined and testified as follows:

09:22:11

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EXAMINATION BY MR. HUDIS

09:22:10

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9
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BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Good morning, sir.

09:22:11
Would you state your

full name and address for the record.
A.

James Robert Fruchterman, Jr.

1850 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto, California.
Q.

And is that your business address or

your home address?

09:22:13
09:22:15
09:22:18
09:22:20
09:22:26
09:22:28

15

A.

My home address.

09:22:30

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Q.

Could I have your business address,

09:22:31

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18
19
20

please.
A.

09:22:33
My business address is 4780 California

Avenue, Palo Alto, California.
Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I am here -- my name is

09:22:33
09:22:36
09:22:39

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Jonathan Hudis, representing the plaintiffs in an

09:22:41

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action in which you've been designated as an

09:22:45

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expert witness.

09:22:47

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25

My colleague, Katherine Cappaert, is
here with me and will be working with me during

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:22:48
09:22:50

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
10
1

the deposition.

09:22:53

Before we get started, a couple of

2

09:22:56

3

deposition rules which I'd like you to

09:22:58

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acknowledge.

09:23:00

You understand you're giving testimony

5

09:23:00

6

under oath?

09:23:02

7

A.

Yes.

09:23:05

8

Q.

The court reporter, you understand, is

09:23:05

9

taking down everything that you're saying?

09:23:06

10

A.

Yes.

09:23:08

11

Q.

We'll need audible responses from you,

09:23:10

12

so no nods or gestures.

09:23:13

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A.

Yes.

09:23:15

14

Q.

If at any point you do not understand a

09:23:16

15

question, please let me know, and I will try to

09:23:18

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clarify the question for you.

09:23:20

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A.

Okay.

18

Q.

All right.

09:23:22
If you need a break for any

09:23:23

19

reason, please let me know, and we can provide you

09:23:24

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that break.

09:23:27

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pending, you must answer the question before we

09:23:30

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take the break.

09:23:32

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A.

Yes.
MR. KAPLAN:

24
25

Except if there is a question

09:23:33
Unless it's about

privilege.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:23:35
09:23:36

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
11
1

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

2
3

Correct.

09:23:37
And your counsel is right,

unless it's about privilege.
If at any point you come to realize that

4

09:23:37
09:23:39
09:23:40

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an answer that you've already given during the

09:23:43

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day, Mr. Fruchterman, is not completely correct,

09:23:46

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will you please let me know, and I will give you

09:23:48

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an opportunity to correct that answer.

09:23:50

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A.

Yes.

09:23:53

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Q.

Is there any reason, whether by taking

09:23:53

11

medication or illness, that you cannot testify

09:23:55

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completely, accurately and truthfully today?

09:23:58

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A.

No.

09:24:01

14

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, have you been deposed

09:24:02

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before?

09:24:03

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A.

Yes.

09:24:04

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Q.

When?

09:24:05

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A.

In the last month or two, once.

09:24:07

19

Q.

Was that in the ASTM case?

09:24:12

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A.

Yes.

09:24:15

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Q.

And that case is also pending in DC,

09:24:16

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federal court?
A.

23
24
25

I'm not familiar with what court it's

in.

09:24:20
09:24:22
09:24:27

Q.

And that case is also pending against

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:24:28

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
12
1

Public.Resource.Org, Inc.?

09:24:30

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A.

Yes, that's my understanding.

09:24:34

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Q.

Is that the only time you've been

09:24:35

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deposed?

09:24:36

5

A.

Yes.

09:24:37

6

Q.

Have you ever testified at a trial

09:24:51

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8

before?
A.

No.
MR. HUDIS:

9
10

09:24:52
09:24:52
I'd like the court reporter

to now mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit Fruchterman 48.

09:25:01
09:25:02

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Counsel.

09:25:06

12

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 48 was

09:25:14

13
14
15

marked for identification.)
BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:25:14
09:25:14

Mr. Fruchterman, I now place in front of

09:25:16

16

you what's been marked as Deposition Exhibit 48.

09:25:20

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Have you seen this deposition subpoena

09:25:23

18

of Exhibit 48 that is directed to you before

09:25:25

19

today?

09:25:27

20

A.

No, I don't believe so.

09:25:29

21

Q.

How is it you were made aware that you

09:25:36

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were testifying today?

09:25:38

23

A.

Through counsel.

09:25:39

24

Q.

All right.

09:25:40

25

What did you do to prepare

for testifying today?

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:25:44

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
13
MR. KAPLAN:

And I'll object to the

09:25:45

2

extent that the question calls for privileged

09:25:47

3

communications or other information protected by

09:25:50

4

Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26 and instruct

09:25:51

5

the witness to answer only to the extent that it

09:25:54

6

does not involve communications with counsel.

09:25:57

1

THE WITNESS:

7

I reread my expert report.

09:26:01

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I read the rebuttal report from plaintiff's

09:26:04

9

expert.

09:26:10

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:26:11

10
11

Q.

Anything else?

09:26:14

12

A.

Nothing beyond the things I can

09:26:17

13

disclose.

14

Q.

Okay.

09:26:22

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

09:26:21

Jonathan, if you don't

mind.

09:26:25
To clarify my instruction, you can

17

09:26:23

09:26:25

18

mention the existence of conversations that we

09:26:27

19

had, just not their content.

09:26:29

THE WITNESS:

20

So I have also spoken with

09:26:32

21

counsel.

09:26:33

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:26:33

23
24
25

Q.

All right.

And that was the

Fenwick & West counsel?
A.

Correct.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:26:34
09:26:36
09:26:37

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
14
1

Q.

All right.

Did you speak with any of

09:26:39

2

the counsel from EFF, Electronic Frontier

09:26:41

3

Foundation, to prepare to testify?

09:26:44

4
5
6

A.
months.
Q.

No.

Well, just to be accurate, not in

So ...

09:26:48
09:26:53

All right.

So just to clarify, you were

09:26:59

7

told by counsel you were going to be testifying

09:27:04

8

today, but you haven't seen the deposition

09:27:06

9

subpoena of Exhibit 48 before?

09:27:09

10

A.

Correct.

09:27:10

11

Q.

Besides reviewing your expert report and

09:27:14

12

the rebuttal expert report, did you review any

09:27:16

13

other documents to prepare to testify today?

09:27:20

14

A.

Only those attached to those reports.

09:27:27

15

Q.

Okay.

09:27:30

16

question.

17

A.

Mh-hmm.

09:27:33

18

Q.

Other than reviewing your expert report

09:27:33

So let me ask it as a fuller

09:27:32

19

and its attachments and the rebuttal report and

09:27:36

20

its attachments, did you read anything else in

09:27:38

21

order to prepare to testify today?

09:27:41

22

A.

No.

09:27:43

23

Q.

To prepare to testify today, did you

09:27:44

24

speak with anyone else except the lawyers at

09:27:45

25

Fenwick & West?

09:27:48

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
15
1

A.

No.

09:27:49

2

Q.

Did you speak with Mr. Malamud to

09:27:50

3
4

prepare to testify today?
A.

6

Asked and

I will try to pause.

Got to give me --

THE WITNESS:

Yeah, you're not in that

rhythm yet.
MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:27:58
09:27:59

MR. KAPLAN:

12

09:27:55
09:27:56

Sorry.

10

13

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

9

11

09:27:55

answered.

7
8

No.
MR. KAPLAN:

5

09:27:53

09:27:59
09:28:01
09:28:02

Come on.

Got to catch up.

How long do you think you took to

09:28:05
09:28:07

14

prepare by reading the two reports and their

09:28:08

15

attachments?

09:28:11

16
17
18
19
20

A.

Less than two hours total for the

reading.
Q.

09:28:21
And that is the sum total of the

documents you reviewed to prepare to testify?
A.

09:28:17

09:28:21
09:28:23
09:28:26

And I believe in this entire line of

21

Yes.

09:28:31

22

questioning, we're talking about in preparation

09:28:33

23

for this deposition, since the creation of my

09:28:35

24

expert report.

09:28:37

25

Q.

That is correct, sir.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:28:39

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
16
1
2

A.

Okay.

Then my -- my testimony has been

accurate so far.

09:28:42
Since you were retained to

09:28:43

4

be an expert witness in this case, have you read

09:28:48

5

the pleadings, meaning the complaint, the answer

09:28:50

6

and the reply?

09:28:54

3

Q.

09:28:40

All right.

7

A.

No.

09:28:57

8

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, what is the highest

09:29:14

9

level of your education?

09:29:15

10

A.

A master's degree.

09:29:16

11

Q.

Okay.

09:29:20

And based upon reviewing some of

12

your papers and your expert witness report, you

09:29:22

13

received a bachelor's degree from the California

09:29:25

14

Institute of Technology?

09:29:28

15

A.

Correct.

09:29:30

16

Q.

And that was a bachelor's of science in

09:29:32

17

engineering in 1980?

09:29:34

18

A.

Correct.

09:29:35

19

Q.

What was your major?

09:29:40

20

A.

I would say electrical engineering.

09:29:41

21

Q.

Did you have a minor during your

09:29:46

22

undergraduate studies?

09:29:47

23

A.

No.

09:29:52

24

Q.

Did you have what's called a

09:29:53

concentration during your undergraduate studies?

09:29:54

25

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
17
1

A.

I simultaneously got a master's in

09:29:58

2

applied physics while completing my bachelor's, so

09:30:00

3

I would say applied physics might fall in that

09:30:04

4

category.

09:30:08

5

Q.

6

So you also received a master's degree

from California Institute of Technology?

09:30:18
09:30:20

7

A.

Correct.

09:30:23

8

Q.

And that was in 1980?

09:30:24

9

A.

Correct.

09:30:25

10

Q.

And that was a master of science in

09:30:26

11

applied physics?

09:30:27

12

A.

Correct.

09:30:29

13

Q.

Now, for your master's, did you have a

09:30:29

14

major?

15

A.

16

09:30:32
Caltech didn't have a major under the

applied physics degree.

09:30:36
09:30:39

17

Q.

Do you have a minor for your master's?

09:30:41

18

A.

They didn't have minors.

09:30:42

19

Q.

And did you have a concentration for

09:30:44

20
21
22

your master's?
A.

Informally, I focused on optics and

lasers over other areas of applied physics.

23

Q.

24

Ph.D.?

25

A.

Now, you did start studies towards a

09:30:45
09:30:50
09:30:53
09:31:01
09:31:04

Correct.

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09:31:05

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
18
1

Q.

And that was at Stanford?

09:31:05

2

A.

Yes.

09:31:06

3

Q.

And that was from 1980 to 1981?

09:31:06

4

A.

Correct.

09:31:10

5

Q.

That was in electrical engineering?

09:31:10

6

A.

Yes.

09:31:12

7

Q.

Do you recall what courses you took

09:31:12

8
9

towards your Ph.D.?
A.

No.

09:31:14

It would have been in the applied

09:31:19

10

physics and electrical engineering directions, for

09:31:21

11

the most part.

09:31:24

12

Q.

And you did not obtain your Ph.D.?

09:31:34

13

A.

Correct.

09:31:36

14

Q.

Why not?

09:31:37

15

A.

I took a leave of absence to join a

09:31:38

16

private rocket company.

09:31:40

17

Q.

And that was G.H.C., Inc.?

09:31:46

18

A.

G.C.H., Inc.

09:31:49

19

Q.

G.C.H., Inc.

And that was the -- I don't know if I'm

20
21

Sorry for my dyslexia.

spelling -- pronouncing this right -- Percheron?

09:31:51
09:32:07
09:32:09

22

A.

Correct pronunciation, yes.

09:32:13

23

Q.

Thank you.

09:32:15

24
25

All right.

And that was the Percheron

private enterprise rocket project, as an

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09:32:16
09:32:18

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
19
1

electrical engineer?

09:32:20

2

A.

Yes.

09:32:22

3

Q.

And that was the project where the

09:32:22

4

rocket blew up?

09:32:24

5

A.

Correct.

09:32:29

6

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, just to outline the

09:32:30

7

extent of your formal school training, you do not

09:32:32

8

have any formal school training in psychology?

09:32:34

9

A.

Correct.

09:32:36

10

Q.

And you do not have any formal school

09:32:37

11

training in psychometrics?

09:32:40

12

A.

Correct.

09:32:42

13

Q.

You don't have any formal school

09:32:43

14

training in educational or achievement tests or

09:32:44

15

measures?

09:32:48

16

A.

Correct.

09:32:49

17

Q.

And you do not have any formal education

09:32:56

18

in psychological tests or measures?

09:32:59

19

A.

Correct.

09:33:02

20

Q.

Now, your resume notes that you have

09:33:06

21

several -- you had several engineering positions

09:33:10

22

with the following companies:

09:33:12

23

Engineering, Inc.?

Phoenix

09:33:15

24

A.

Yes.

09:33:18

25

Q.

What years was that?

09:33:18

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
20
1

A.

'81-'83.

09:33:21

2

Q.

1981 to 1983?

09:33:25

3

A.

Correct.

09:33:27

4

Q.

What type of company was it?

09:33:27

5

A.

It was a private enterprise rocket

09:33:29

6

company.

09:33:34

7

Q.

Where was it located?

09:33:35

8

A.

Santa Clara -- certainly -- Santa Clara

09:33:36

9

County.

Certainly this area.

09:33:39

10

Q.

What was your job title at Phoenix?

09:33:41

11

A.

I had a -- I was vice president.

09:33:44

12

Q.

What were your job responsibilities?

09:33:46

13

A.

I don't recall.

09:33:53

14

Q.

What did you do there?

09:33:56

15

A.

Tried to raise money to start a rocket

09:33:57

16

company.

09:34:00

17

Q.

Do you remember anything else you did?

09:34:02

18

A.

I probably was involved with the

09:34:04

19

finances.

We tested some prototype rocket

09:34:06

20

engines.

21

raise money, which we were unsuccessful in doing.

And I spent most of my time trying to

22

MR. HUDIS:

23

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

24
25

Off the record.
Going off the record

at 9:34.

09:34:12
09:34:17
09:34:22
09:34:25
09:34:26

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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09:34:28

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
21
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

1

Back on the record at

09:37:31

2

9:37.

09:37:32

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:37:33

4

Q.

So while we were off the record,

09:37:34

5

Mr. Fruchterman, my colleague noted that I was a

09:37:36

6

little dilatory in marking your resume.

09:37:39

7

discussing your background.

8

have your resume in front of you.

9

A.

15

I'd like the court reporter

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 49 was
marked for identification.)
THE WITNESS:

14

Okay.

09:37:42
09:37:44
09:37:46

to mark as Deposition Exhibit Fruchterman 49.

12
13

You might as well

Thank you.

MR. HUDIS:

10
11

Okay.

So we're

09:37:48
09:37:49
09:37:53
09:37:53

Thank you.

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:38:02
09:38:03

16

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, do you recognize this

17

document?

18

A.

I do.

09:38:07

19

Q.

What is it?

09:38:08

20

A.

My resume.

09:38:08

21

Q.

All right.

09:38:03
09:38:05

So we were discussing your

09:38:09

22

background, and we finished discussing your

09:38:13

23

engineering position with Phoenix Engineering.

09:38:18

24

Let's go on to G.C.H., Inc.

09:38:21

All right.

09:38:25

25

A.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
22
1
2
3
4

Q.

All right.

And what type of company was

that?
A.

09:38:26
09:38:27

It was a private company, probably a C

corp, I'm guessing.

09:38:29
09:38:32

5

Q.

What business was it in?

09:38:33

6

A.

In the business of building a private

09:38:35

7

enterprise rocket.

09:38:38

8

Q.

How long were you with the company?

09:38:43

9

A.

Under one year.

09:38:44

10

Q.

What year -- what year was that?

09:38:45

11

A.

1981 -- probably -- I was probably only

09:38:49

12

employed during 1981.

09:38:54

13

Q.

What was your job title?

09:38:56

14

A.

Electrical engineer.

09:38:58

15

Q.

And what were your responsibilities at

09:39:01

16

G.H.C.?

09:39:03

17

A.

At G.C.H., my responsibilities --

09:39:05

18

Q.

G.C.H.

09:39:07

19

A.

No problem.

09:39:08

-- were to design remote fuel loading

09:39:10

20
21

systems to fuel up the rocket, telemetry systems

09:39:14

22

to collect data about the rocket's performance, a

09:39:19

23

remote igniting system and a command destruct

09:39:23

24

system to blow up the rocket if it went off

09:39:27

25

course.

09:39:30

Yeah.

That was my main -- top

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
23
1
2
3

responsibilities.
Q.

09:39:34

And you were employed at the IBM T.J.

Watson Research Center?

09:39:41
09:39:45

4

A.

Correct.

09:39:47

5

Q.

What type of company was that?

09:39:47

6

A.

IBM is a large computer company.

09:39:49

7

Q.

All right.

09:39:51

8

What did -- was that a

division, the Watson Research Company?

09:39:53

9

A.

The Watson Research Center --

09:39:56

10

Q.

Center.

09:39:58

11

A.

-- is -- was one of IBM's major research

09:39:58

12
13
14
15

centers.
Q.

09:40:02
And at that research center, what did

they do at the time you were employed there?
A.

Well, this is a large research center

09:40:05
09:40:07
09:40:11

16

with a couple thousand of employees, so they did a

09:40:14

17

whole bunch of different things.

09:40:17

18

Q.

What did you do?

09:40:20

19

A.

I worked on photoacoustic microscopy.

09:40:20

20

Q.

And if you could define what that is,

09:40:25

21
22

please.
A.

09:40:27
Making dust scream.

So our task was to

09:40:28

23

detect dust on top of silicon wafers that would be

09:40:34

24

hard to see, sort of visual inspection, by hitting

09:40:39

25

them with a pulsed laser that would cause the dust

09:40:42

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
24
1

to heat up and emit sound, which we could then

09:40:44

2

detect.

09:40:48

3

improve silicon wafer -- reduce defects,

09:40:53

4

basically.

09:40:57

So it was an inspection technique to

MR. KAPLAN:

5

Kathleen, I was wrong.

We

09:41:04

6

are going to talk about semiconductors.

09:41:07

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:41:13

8

Q.

What year was this?

Or years.

9

A.

This would have been '80, '81.

09:41:14
This was

09:41:17

10

the summer -- it was a summer internship between

09:41:20

11

my master's and my -- starting up my Ph.D. program

09:41:22

12

at Stanford.

09:41:24

13
14

Q.

So that was the summer of '80 or summer

or '81?

09:41:25
09:41:28

15

A.

The summer of '80.

09:41:29

16

Q.

Did you have a job title there?

09:41:34

17

A.

Some variation on summer intern.

18
19

I

don't recall the exact title.
Q.

09:41:38
09:41:40

Have you told me all about your job

09:41:49

20

responsibilities at the Watson Research Center at

09:41:51

21

the time you were employed there?

09:41:54

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Certainly that was the

09:41:56
09:41:57

24

main project I worked on, and I wasn't engaged to

09:41:58

25

work on any other major projects.

09:42:01

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
25
1
2
3
4
5

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:42:05

And you were employed at the General

Motors Company?
A.

09:42:05
09:42:06

Two summers, while -- while doing my

engineering degree.

09:42:08
09:42:10

6

Q.

Which summers?

09:42:11

7

A.

That would have been the summers of '78

09:42:15

8

and '79.

09:42:17

9

Q.

You were an intern?

09:42:21

10

A.

Yes.

09:42:23

11

Q.

What projects did you work on?

09:42:25

12

A.

I only remember one project, which was

09:42:27

13

to build a fast start system for a diesel engine,

09:42:32

14

so that the engine would start faster when you

09:42:38

15

turn on the ignition.

Often called a glow plug.

09:42:42

Do you remember any other projects you

09:42:52

16

Q.

17

worked on?

09:42:53

18

A.

No.

09:42:54

19

Q.

And you worked at the NASA Jet

09:42:58

20

Propulsion Laboratory?

09:42:59

21

A.

Correct.

09:43:02

22

Q.

When was that?

09:43:03

23

A.

I'm going to say '77 through '79, but I

09:43:06

24

am not exactly sure.

It was also during my

25

undergraduate work at -- at Caltech.

I was a

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09:43:11
09:43:14

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
26
1

student research associate for Dr. Bruce Murphy --

09:43:18

2

Murray, who was then the director of JPL.

09:43:24

3

Q.

Do you remember what you did for

4

Dr. Murray?

09:43:35

5

A.

09:43:36

I worked on the Spacel photographic data

09:43:33

6

retrieval system which held imagery from the

09:43:40

7

Viking missions, primarily.

09:43:44

8
9
10

Q.

I think for the court reporter, you're

going to have to spell out the name of that

09:43:48

device.

09:43:51

11

A.

12

at the end.

13

more?

Spacel, like the word "space" plus an L
Are we otherwise good, or do you need

THE REPORTER:

15

THE WITNESS:

18
19

I'm sorry?
Do you need any more or is

that enough?
(Discussion held off record.)

17

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:43:53
09:43:56
09:43:57

14

16

09:43:47

Do you remember any other

09:43:57
09:44:02
09:44:04
09:44:05
09:44:05
09:44:23

20

responsibilities you had working for Dr. Murray at

09:44:24

21

the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory?

09:44:26

22
23
24
25

A.

That was my primary project there, and I

don't recall any others.
Q.

And you worked at the Fermi National

Accelerator Laboratory?

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09:44:29
09:44:31
09:44:33
09:44:35

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
27
1

A.

Correct.

09:44:38

2

Q.

When was that?

09:44:38

3

A.

The summer of 1977.

09:44:39

4

Q.

What did they do there at the Fermi

09:44:48

5

National Accelerator Laboratory while you were

09:44:50

6

there?

09:44:52

7

A.

They -- they ran a large accelerator,

09:44:53

8

and they designed physics experiments to detect

09:44:56

9

elementary particles.

09:45:02

10

Q.

What was your job title there?

09:45:18

11

A.

Something like student intern or summer

09:45:20

12

intern.

09:45:24

13

Q.

What did you do there?

09:45:25

14

A.

Primarily worked on instruments,

09:45:27

15

maintenance of instruments, upgrading of

09:45:30

16

instruments.

09:45:33

17

Q.

What kind of instruments?

09:45:37

18

A.

Well, the largest and longest-term

09:45:38

19

project was on a multiwire proportional chamber.

09:45:42

20

Q.

What did it do?

09:45:46

21

A.

Detected signals from elementary

09:45:50

22

particles.

09:45:52

23

Q.

Sounds?

09:45:55

24

A.

More electrical signals.

25

The -- it was

a large frame, maybe four by six, that had many

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09:45:57
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
28
1

different wires.

You put it in, I believe, a

2

noble gas environment with a bunch of other

09:46:11

3

things, and you detected the path of the particle

09:46:14

4

by hitting some of these gas atoms, and then that

09:46:16

5

would create a ionization that would create a

09:46:20

6

signal on the wires, so you would actually be able

09:46:23

7

to measure the track through the -- through the

09:46:25

8

space.

09:46:28

9

Q.

09:46:09

So other than what is on your resume on

09:46:36

10

the first page, are there any other companies you

09:46:39

11

worked for that are -- that are not listed here

09:46:41

12

since graduating from Caltech?

09:46:43

13

A.

Yes.

There were additional positions,

09:46:49

14

all -- all either ones that I did while trying to

09:46:54

15

start companies or companies that didn't get

09:46:59

16

started.

09:47:02

17
18

Q.

What field of endeavor were these

companies that you tried to get started?

09:47:08
09:47:10

19

A.

Technology.

09:47:12

20

Q.

Any particular technology?

09:47:14

21

A.

Well, they would have related to either

09:47:17

22

electrical engineering or to computer science and

09:47:18

23

at least one semiconductor company.

09:47:27

24
25

Q.

Any particular projects that you

remember working on in starting up these companies

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09:47:38
09:47:39

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
29
1
2

as you sit here today?
A.

09:47:43

Oh, many ideas.

Microfluidics, math and

09:47:46

3

science simulation software, more pattern

09:47:57

4

recognition companies, but none of these reached

09:48:06

5

the point of where I was actually employed,

09:48:10

6

because they never got started.

09:48:13

7

Q.

Could you define for us microfluidics?

09:48:14

8

A.

It's a semiconductor-based technology

09:48:18

for moving gases or fluids rather than electrical

09:48:22

10

current, but under the control of electrical

09:48:28

11

signals.

09:48:32

9

12
13

Q.

Any other notable projects in your

working background that you haven't told us about?

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I taught night school, in

09:48:44
09:48:47
09:48:49

16

computer programming.

17

part of helping homeowners understand more of

09:48:59

18

their earthquake risks.

09:49:03

19

the early '80s, when I was trying to get my first

09:49:08

20

company really going.

09:49:11

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:49:14

22

Q.

I crawled under houses as

09:48:41

But those were back in

Since it's a fair part of your expert's

09:48:51

09:49:20

23

report, Mr. Fruchterman, in simple terms could you

09:49:24

24

please define what is "optical character

09:49:28

25

recognition" and what does it do?

09:49:31

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
30
1

A.

So optical character recognition is the

09:49:36

2

process of having a machine recognizing letters

09:49:41

3

and words, generally from documents, though it can

09:49:44

4

be from other objects, and translating those into

09:49:49

5

the letter or word equivalent so that those things

09:49:53

6

can be processed.

09:49:59

So the most common application of

7

09:50:00

8

optical character recognition is scanning, let's

09:50:03

9

say, a page of a document and turning it into a

09:50:07

10

word processor file that is the equivalent of what

09:50:09

11

you would have done if you had typed it in, but

09:50:14

12

the machine, instead, had it scanned and then took

09:50:16

13

the picture of the page and turned it into the

09:50:19

14

text of the page.

09:50:23

So for the remainder of this deposition,

09:50:25

16

if I use the initials "OCR," we'll understand that

09:50:28

17

to mean "optical character recognition"?

09:50:32

15

Q.

18

A.

Yes.

09:50:35

19

Q.

Is OCR a common method of creating

09:50:36

20

searchable digital copies of texts?
MR. KAPLAN:

21
22
23

Objection.

09:50:39
Competence.

Vague.

09:50:47
09:50:52

THE WITNESS:

It is the most common form

09:50:55

24

when the source document is in physical or solely

09:50:56

25

image-based form, but it's probably not the most

09:51:02

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
31
1

common.

09:51:07

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:51:07

3

Q.

What is the most common?

09:51:07

4

A.

Having digitally created content that

09:51:09

5
6

stays digital and then is searched.
Q.

So, for example -MR. KAPLAN:

7

09:51:11
09:51:13

Can I just interject.

For

09:51:14

8

the court reporter, you had my objection as

09:51:16

9

"compound."

09:51:17

It was "competence."

I just wanted

10

to make sure we had that on the record.

09:51:21

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:51:50

So, for example, Mr. Fruchterman, a

09:51:50

13

document created in Microsoft Word would be a

09:51:52

14

method of creating searchable digital text?

09:51:58

12

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

hypothetical.

Objection.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

17

Incomplete

09:52:01
09:52:02

It would be a great source

09:52:06

18

document to put into a system that analyzed

09:52:07

19

documents for full text.

09:52:12

20

you repeat the question.

09:52:18

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:52:19

22
23

Q.

I'm not sure -- could

Yes.

09:52:20

So, for example, a document created in

09:52:23

24

Microsoft Word would be a method of creating

09:52:26

25

searchable digital text?

09:52:29

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
32
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

hypothetical.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

3

Objection.

09:52:32
09:52:34

Yes.

I would say that's

09:52:43

4

pretty true.

09:52:47

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:52:48

6

Q.

09:52:53

Mr. Fruchterman, was the OCR process

7

Thank you for your candor.

09:52:56

8

first developed by Ray Kurzweil?

9

MR. KAPLAN:

10

Objection.

09:52:59
Vague.

Competence.

09:53:04

THE WITNESS:

11

09:53:03

No, that's not my

09:53:06

12

understanding.

But he was a noteworthy inventor

09:53:07

13

along a spectrum of inventors that progressively

09:53:12

14

improved the practice of optical character

09:53:17

15

recognition.

09:53:19

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

09:53:19

Was the OCR process that was developed

09:53:20

18

by Ray Kurzweil used to create a reading machine

09:53:21

19

for the blind?

09:53:25

17

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

20
21

24
25

Vague.

Competence.
THE WITNESS:

22
23

Objection.

09:53:29
Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:53:29

09:53:30
09:53:30

I'd like to turn back, Mr. Fruchterman,

09:53:41

to your resume and talk about the noted companies

09:53:43

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
33
1

with which you have been associated, starting with

09:53:47

2

Calera Recognition Systems and working up towards

09:53:53

3

Benetech.

09:53:56
So is Benetech -- excuse me, is Calera

4

09:53:58

5

Recognition Systems, Inc., still in business

09:54:03

6

today?

09:54:06

7

A.

8
9

It merged into a company that is still

extant today.
Q.

09:54:08
09:54:12

All right.

Is the company, Calera

09:54:13

10

Recognition Systems, Inc., as that company was

09:54:15

11

known between 1982 and 1989, still in existence

09:54:20

12

today?

09:54:25
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

legal conclusion.

16
17

Calls for a

Competence.

THE WITNESS:

15

Objection.

09:54:26

Not by that name.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

09:54:26

09:54:31
09:54:33

What type of company was

09:54:33

18

Calera Recognition Systems when it was in business

09:54:37

19

under that name?

09:54:40

20
21
22

A.

It was a optical character recognition

company.
Q.

09:54:43
What products did it make at the time

23

you were affiliated with Calera?

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

09:54:41

Objection.

09:54:46
09:54:50

Argumentative.

Vague.

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09:54:51
09:54:54

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
34
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3
4
5

A series of OCR products.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:55:07

What services, if any, did Calera

recognition systems render to customers?
A.

09:54:56

Calera was primarily a product sales

09:55:08
09:55:11
09:55:16

6

company, but it did provide maintenance services

09:55:20

7

and product customization services to its

09:55:25

8

customers.

09:55:32

9

Q.

09:55:39

And according to your resume, which

10

we've marked as Exhibit 49, you were the founder,

09:55:41

11

vice -- vice president of finance from 1982 to

09:55:45

12

1988?

09:55:49

13

A.

Correct.

09:55:50

14

Q.

What were your responsibilities as vice

09:55:51

15

president, finance?
I had, I'd say, the typical

09:55:57

17

responsibilities of a chief financial officer,

09:56:01

18

which was to participate in the raising of

09:56:03

19

capital, the accounting systems, financial

09:56:07

20

controls, reporting.

So those were my primary

09:56:11

21

financial responsibilities while I was in that

09:56:17

22

role.

09:56:20

16

23

A.

09:55:52

Q.

Have you told me all the

09:56:20

24

responsibilities you can recall when you were in

09:56:22

25

that role?

09:56:23

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
35
1

A.

No.

09:56:24

2

Q.

Are there other responsibilities you had

09:56:26

3
4

in that role as vice president of finance?
A.

Yes.

09:56:27

I was also a technical founder.

09:56:30

5

So during that time period, I wrote software code.

09:56:33

6

I worked a great deal with customers.

09:56:38

7

Q.

In what capacity?

09:56:42

8

A.

In technology companies, there's usually

09:56:49

9

a salesperson and a tech person when you're doing

10

a major sale to a company like Hewlett-Packard.

11

would have been that tech person.

09:56:54
I

09:56:57

So an executive

09:57:00

12

with a technology background combined with a sales

09:57:04

13

executive, and together we would work on the care

09:57:08

14

and feeding of that account and hopefully getting

09:57:13

15

their business.

09:57:16

Have you told me all of your duties and

09:57:16

17

responsibilities as founder and vice president of

09:57:20

18

finance --

09:57:22

16

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Objection.

Vague.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

09:57:24

-- at Calera at the time you were

employed there?
A.

Q.

09:57:25
09:57:27

That was a great majority of my

responsibilities.

09:57:24

Nothing else occurs to me.

And you were the vice president of

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09:57:29
09:57:30
09:57:32

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
36
1

marketing for Calera from 1987 through 1989?

09:57:33

2

A.

Correct.

09:57:37

3

Q.

What were your responsibilities in that

09:57:38

4
5

role at that time?
A.

09:57:40

Primarily product marketing.

So what

09:57:43

6

features the product should have, how it should be

09:57:49

7

communicated to the customers, relationships with

09:57:53

8

the press.

09:57:59

9

responsibilities.

10

Q.

Those would be the primary

09:58:04

Are there any other responsibilities

09:58:05

11

that you had as vice president of marketing that

09:58:07

12

you haven't told me that you can recall now?

09:58:09

13

A.

No.

09:58:11

14

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, what is or was

09:58:17

15

Omnifront Character Recognition Technology?

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Compound.

Different vendors use that
It was Calera's primary

09:58:19
09:58:29
09:58:31

18

term different ways.

19

initial claim to primacy in the OCR market, which

09:58:39

20

was that our character recognition recognized all

09:58:46

21

fonts without needing to be trained on those fonts

09:58:49

22

or having those fonts be in some way memorized in

09:58:53

23

memory.

09:58:57

24

made a pretty powerful product.

And so that was our primary edge, which

25
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09:58:33

09:59:00

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
37
1

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

2

09:59:05

Just so we have a working definition,

09:59:05

3

please define, as you understand it, what a "font"

09:59:08

4

is.

09:59:11
So in the field of typography, when you

09:59:17

6

were preparing a printed document, you have font.

09:59:20

7

Designers design different looks for fonts, and

09:59:23

8

fonts have many different properties.

09:59:27

5

A.

And so a font is a group of a complete

9

09:59:30

10

character set that might be all the different

09:59:38

11

letters or symbols that you might want to have be

09:59:41

12

represented in that font, and then a font is

09:59:43

13

essentially a -- has a similar design feeling

09:59:45

14

across all of those characters.

09:59:49

15

it tall and narrow or squat and wide or have

09:59:52

16

serifs, attached letters or not.

09:59:58

17
18

Q.

For example, is

By way of example, Times Roman is a type

of font?

10:00:01
10:00:04

19

A.

Correct.

10:00:05

20

Q.

And Courier New is a type of font?

10:00:05

21

A.

Yes.

10:00:08

22

Q.

And Helvetica is a type of font?

10:00:08

23

A.

Yes.

10:00:11

24

Q.

As a product of Calera Recognition

10:00:14

25

Systems, what is or was WordScan?

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10:00:16

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
38
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

Objection.

Compound.

Well, I don't know if it's

still in existence, Counsel.
THE WITNESS:

4

10:00:19
10:00:21
10:00:23

So WordScan was -- was

10:00:26

5

Calera's software OCR product as opposed to one

10:00:29

6

that had hardware attached to it.

10:00:34

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:00:37

8
9

Q.

As a product of Calera Recognition

Systems, what is or was TrueScan?

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11

THE WITNESS:

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

THE WITNESS:

15

Objection.

10:00:38
Compound.

TrueScan --

10:00:43
10:00:44

Just preserving.
Go on, Counsel.
Whatever you guys are

doing.

10:00:46
10:00:47
10:00:50
10:00:50

TrueScan was the hardware version of OCR

16

10:00:38

10:00:52

17

that preceded WordScan in the product line

10:00:56

18

evolution of Calera.

10:01:00

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:01:02

20

Q.

And was it the intent of Calera at that

10:01:02

21

time that TrueScan and WordScan would work

10:01:04

22

together as a software-hardware package?

10:01:06

23

A.

No.

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

10:01:10
Objection.

Vague.

Go ahead.

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10:01:10
10:01:11

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
39
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3
4

10:01:12

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:01:12

What was Calera's purpose of selling

WordScan and TrueScan to customers?
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Sorry.

Objection.

10:01:14
10:01:19

Vague.

Competence.

10:01:22
10:01:23

THE WITNESS:

So this is -- Calera,

10:01:27

8

during this time period, released a series of

10:01:29

9

products, and the general characteristic of that

10:01:31

10

progression was that they got better and cheaper

10:01:38

11

and required less resources.

10:01:41

7

So the original product was 40- or

12

10:01:42

13

$50,000 and was the size of three or four

10:01:45

14

breadboxes.

10:01:50

15

cost maybe $5,000, and WordScan was an OCR

10:01:53

16

software product that required no hardware, that

10:01:56

17

was perhaps $1,000 when it was launched.

10:01:57

TrueScan was a coprocessor card that

So there was just the same capabilities

18

10:02:03

19

getting better in a different format for

10:02:05

20

delivering OCR to a customer.

10:02:08

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:02:10

22

Q.

Okay.

Now, you left Calera in 1989?

23

A.

Correct.

10:02:14

24

Q.

Okay.

10:02:15

25

A.

I was unhappy and wanted to do something

Why?

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10:02:28

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
40
1
2

new.

10:02:31
Q.

Now, Calera Recognition Systems was

10:03:01

3

acquired by Caere, C-A-E-R-E, Recognition Systems

10:03:04

4

in 1994?

10:03:08

5
6

A.

That's my rough understanding.

And it's

pronounced "Caere."

10:03:12
10:03:14

7

Q.

Caere?

10:03:16

8

A.

As if it didn't have the extra "E," yes.

10:03:17

But, yes, I remember that they were

10:03:19

9
10
11
12

acquired in the early '90s.
Q.

And that was for a sale price of

$35 million?

foundation.

Objection.

Lack of

Competence.

THE WITNESS:

15

10:03:23
10:03:26

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

10:03:21

10:03:29
10:03:29

That order of magnitude.

10:03:31

16

It varied on when you priced the deal, 'cause

10:03:33

17

Caere's stock as a public company varied from the

10:03:36

18

time the deal was announced to when it was

10:03:39

19

consummated.

10:03:42

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:03:44

21

Q.

Is 35 million approximately the sale

22

price of the company?

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

10:03:44
10:03:46

Objection.
Yes.

Vague.

10:03:47

But I also heard

10:03:48

50 million when the stock price was higher.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
41
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:03:53

So it could have been anywhere from 35

to $50 million?

10:03:52
10:03:53

4

A.

In that range, yeah.

10:03:55

5

Q.

Were -- to the best of your knowledge,

10:03:57

6

were Calera's patents and trademarks part of the

10:03:58

7

assets that were sold to Caere?

10:04:01

8
9

A.

I -- I'm assuming so.

I don't have

knowledge to the contrary.

10:04:07

Do you know whether Caere itself was

10:04:11

11

later acquired by a speech recognition company

10:04:13

12

called Nuance Communications?

10:04:17

10

13
14

Q.

10:04:05

A.

17
18

It's my understanding that Nuance

is the surviving company of that merger.

marked for identification.)

10:04:44
10:04:44

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:04:18
10:04:19

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 50 was

15
16

Yes.

10:04:44

Mr. Fruchterman, I've now put in front

19

of you what has been marked as Exhibit 50.

20

we're going to go off the record for a few seconds

10:04:52

21

so that you can at least familiarize yourself with

10:04:54

22

the document.

10:04:56

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

MR. KAPLAN:

And

10:04:48

No, we're not.
We're not?
No.

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10:04:58
10:04:59
10:05:00

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
42
MR. HUDIS:

1

I don't want to burn up time

10:05:00

2

for him just reading a document.

10:05:02

3

MR. KAPLAN:

10:05:03

4

Well, if there's parts that

you want him to review --

5

MR. HUDIS:

6

MR. KAPLAN:

10:05:04

Yes, I do.

10:05:06

-- I mean, you can point

10:05:07

7

him to those parts if you want him to have a

10:05:08

8

general understanding of the document.

10:05:10

THE WITNESS:

9

I'm ready to go if there's

10:05:11

10

questions.

10:05:13

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:05:13

Q.

12

Sure.

Okay.

All right.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, do you -- let's

13
14

Okay.

take the trademarks first.

10:05:16
10:05:18

Do you recognize the trademarks listed

15

10:05:13

10:05:20

16

on Exhibit 50 as trademarks of Calera Recognition

10:05:23

17

Systems?

10:05:27

A.

18
19
20

Yes, I -- I recall those trademarks,

yes.

10:05:44
10:05:48

Q.

And on pages 4 and 5, do you recognize

21

those as copyrights of Calera?

22

Exhibit 50.

23

A.

Yes.

This is in

10:05:49
10:05:53
10:05:58

They are consistent with my

10:06:00

24

recollection of copyrightable material that Calera

10:06:03

25

would have produced.

10:06:08

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
43
1

Q.

And if we can turn to the first page of

10:06:09

2

Exhibit 50, do you recognize the title of that

10:06:11

3

patent as being owned by Calera Recognition

10:06:14

4

Systems at one time?

10:06:16

5

A.

It's consistent with technology that was

10:06:27

6

in use at Calera while I was there, and

10:06:29

7

Mindy Bokser was an engineer who was there while I

10:06:32

8

was there.

10:06:35

9

this particular patent.

I don't know this precise content of

10:06:41

10

MR. HUDIS:

11

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

12

Let's go off the record.
Going off the record

at 10:06.

10:06:48
10:06:49
10:06:50

13

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

10:06:52

14

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

10:12:36

15

12:10 -- I'm sorry, 10:12.
THE WITNESS:

16
17

having fun.

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

THE WITNESS:

22

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

25

Another dyslexic.

We'll take it.
Two for two.
Okay.

Okay.

10:12:48
10:12:50
10:12:51
10:12:53

10:12.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:12:44
10:12:45

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

24

10:12:40

Time flies when you're

18

23

Back on the record at

10:12:55
10:12:56

So, Mr. Fruchterman, after you

left Calera Recognition Systems, you went to work

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10:12:57
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
44
1

for RAF Technology, Inc.?

10:13:07

2

A.

Yes.

10:13:11

3

Q.

What type of company was RAF?

10:13:13

4

A.

An optical character recognition company

10:13:17

5

and pattern recognition company.

10:13:19

6

Q.

Patent recognition?

10:13:22

7

A.

Pattern.

10:13:24

8

Q.

In this context, Mr. Fruchterman, what

9

Pattern recognition.

is pattern recognition?

10:13:33

It's a more general form than optical

10:13:35

11

character recognition, where you're looking for

10:13:38

12

patterns rather than -- rather than just letters.

10:13:41

13

So, for example, RAF worked on recognizing rare

10:13:43

14

coins and whale tails.

10:13:47

10

15

A.

10:13:30

Q.

All right.

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

And a whale tail is a?

THE WITNESS:

10:13:52

Whale tail.
A tail of a whale.

10:13:56
To

10:13:57

18

identify --

10:13:58

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:13:59

20

Q.

Oh, a whale tail.

10:14:00

21

A.

Yes.

10:13:59

22

Q.

As in the big large mammal that swims in

10:13:59

23

the ocean?

24

A.

25

10:14:02
That's right.

To recognize individuals

by the scars on their tails as being able to

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
45
1

identify them.

2

pattern recognition can be used to do.

3
4
5

Q.

So many different things that

What kinds of products, if any, did RAF

make?
A.

10:14:08
10:14:09
10:14:12
10:14:15

So RAF did a lot of custom products,
The primary

10:14:16

6

which I've already described.

7

products would be in the area of recognizing

10:14:24

8

letters and forms for large-scale document

10:14:32

9

processing, such as routing the mail or scanning

10:14:41

10

forms that might be used in business or

10:14:46

11

government.

10:14:48

12

Q.

10:15:01

And in your last answer, when you said

10:14:21

13

"recognizing letters," do you mean letters of the

10:15:03

14

alphabet or as in I wrote a letter to so-and-so?

10:15:06

15

A.

Well, both.

We recognize letters as in

10:15:12

16

doing optical character recognition, and we

10:15:18

17

recognize addresses on letters that people want

10:15:22

18

routed to a certain destination by doing optical

10:15:25

19

character recognition plus doing a bunch of

10:15:29

20

processing related to knowing that it's an

10:15:32

21

address.

10:15:35

22
23
24
25

Q.

And who were the major customers of

RAF's products at the time you were there?
A.

Postal services and service bureaus that

process a lot of documents.

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10:15:38
10:15:41
10:15:51
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
46
1
2
3

Q.

When you say process documents, for what

purpose?
A.

10:15:59
10:16:05

Diverse purposes.

But probably the most

10:16:06

4

common one was doing presorting of mass mailings

10:16:08

5

to get a postal discount.

10:16:12

6

Q.

What services, if any, do you recall RAF

10:16:23

7

rendering to its customers at the time you were

10:16:26

8

there?

10:16:28

9

A.

RAF is primarily a product company, and
And then they would

10:16:32

10

so they would sell products.

11

sell associated services, such as maintenance,

10:16:38

12

database maintenance.

10:16:42

13

the mail, you have to repeatedly meet certain

10:16:46

14

postal standards about accuracy of routing the

10:16:49

15

mail, and so you would get a database update that

10:16:52

16

had passed the latest test.

10:16:54

If you were going to route

17

Custom character sets.

18

remember if we did Icelandic, but if we did

10:17:01

19

Icelandic, you'd have to add a few characters that

10:17:04

20

the Icelanders use.

10:17:07

21

And I don't

10:16:35

Some custom products.

Handwriting recognition was a feature

10:16:58

10:17:14

22

that we developed for certain customers and

10:17:17

23

productized.

10:17:20

24

recognition -- well, there were non -- there were

10:17:30

25

also products and services around, I don't know,

10:17:32

And there were non-OCR or pattern

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
47
1

recognizing things as counterfeit, helping the

10:17:38

2

U.S. Treasury track fraud.

10:17:45

3

described the majority of the customers and kinds

10:17:56

4

of services, but if someone came to RAF with

10:17:58

5

something that needed pattern recognition help,

10:18:01

6

they would probably have a great conversation and

10:18:03

7

take their money, so ...

10:18:05

8
9

Q.

And that's -- I've

So you were the president, CEO and

founder from 1989 through 1995 at RAF?

10:18:07
10:18:09

10

A.

Correct.

10:18:13

11

Q.

And you were the vice president,

10:18:13

12

finance, and CFO from 1989 to 2004?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

All right.

15

17
18

10:18:20
Let's divide out your

responsibilities in the two roles.
What were your responsibilities at RAF

16

as president, CEO and founder?
A.

10:18:15

Business strategy.

Customer relations.

10:18:20
10:18:23
10:18:25
10:18:27
10:18:32

19

Some technology, but I was primarily more of a

10:18:35

20

relationship person than a developer at that

10:18:47

21

stage.

10:18:49

22

development.

10:18:56

And what were your duties and

10:19:05

24

responsibilities as vice president of finance and

10:19:06

25

CFO at RAF?

10:19:09

23

Q.

So I made deals with customers, business

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
48
1

A.

Similar to the standard ones of a chief

10:19:11

2

financial officer.

So overseeing legal and

3

administrative and financial responsibilities for

10:19:19

4

the company.

10:19:22

5

reports.

Maintaining the books.

10:19:14

Preparing

10:19:27

Retaining counsel -- which I left out of

6

Negotiating contracts.

10:19:35

7

my Calera list of things I was responsible for.

8

was also overseeing all the legal affairs for

10:19:42

9

Calera as well as for RAF.

10:19:45

10

Q.

I

To the best of your recollection, have

10:19:39

10:19:51

11

you told me all of the main duties and

10:19:52

12

responsibilities as your -- in your position as

10:19:55

13

vice president of finance and CFO of RAF?

10:20:00

14

A.

Yes.

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

17
18

10:20:04
Objection.

Vague.

Sorry.

10:20:05

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:20:04

10:20:05

And have you told me, to the best of

10:20:06

19

your recollection, the main duties and

10:20:08

20

responsibilities you had at RAF as president, CEO

10:20:09

21

and founder?

10:20:12

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

24
25

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And you are currently a director of RAF

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10:20:14
10:20:16
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
49
1

Technology?

10:20:26

2

A.

Correct.

10:20:26

3

Q.

And you've been so since 1989?

10:20:26

4

A.

Correct.

10:20:28

5

Q.

As a product of RAF Technology, what is

10:20:32

6

or was Argosy Post?

10:20:35

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Compound.

10:20:40

Argosy Post was the

10:20:41

address recognition product targeted at companies

10:20:44

10

that processed or were in the postal business.

So

10:20:50

11

that included organizations called service bureaus

10:20:56

12

that do this presorting for postal, OEM customers,

10:21:00

13

like Pitney Bowes, that produce postal equipment,

10:21:03

14

that would want it.

10:21:08

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:21:09

9

16
17
18

Q.

And "OEM" is original equipment

manufacturer?
A.

Correct.

10:21:09
10:21:11

So our technology would go

10:21:11

19

into their postal solution that they would sell to

10:21:15

20

postal services or to service bureaus as well.

10:21:19

21
22

Q.

And in context of your last answer, a

"solution" is a product?

10:21:23
10:21:26

23

A.

Yes.

10:21:29

24

Q.

As a product of RAF Technology, what is

10:21:30

25

or was its complementary processing technology?

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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50
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Compound.

I actually don't recall

10:21:38
10:21:46

3

that particular term at RAF.

10:21:47

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:21:49

Q.

Would it refresh your recollection if I

10:21:51

6

told you that complementary processing technology

10:21:53

7

was used by RAF Technology in mail recognition and

10:21:57

8

sorting operations?

10:22:02

5

A.

9

I don't know the marketing terms they
We talk more about the customers and the

10:22:14

10

use.

11

technical problems that we solve rather than sort

10:22:20

12

of the marketing content.

10:22:23

13

consistent with what RAF does.

16
17

10:22:27

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 51 was

14
15

But it would seem

marked for identification.)

10:22:48
10:22:48

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:22:15

10:22:49

Mr. Fruchterman, I now place in front of

10:22:53

18

you what's been marked as Exhibit 51.

And I'd

10:22:54

19

like you to just familiarize yourself with the

10:22:57

20

document.

10:22:59
MR. KAPLAN:

21

Mr. Hudis, am I correct to

10:23:11

22

understand that this is something your office

10:23:13

23

created?

10:23:16

24
25

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

From publicly

available information.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
51
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

And that would be the same

as Exhibit 50?

3

MR. HUDIS:

4

THE WITNESS:

10:23:23
10:23:24

That is true.

10:23:26

I'm ready to answer

10:23:40

5

questions about the document.

10:23:41

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:23:41

7

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, on pages 1 through 4,

10:23:42

8

do you recognize these as patents that were issued

10:23:49

9

to RAF Technology?

10:23:55

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

10:23:59
10:24:00

THE WITNESS:

Without reading each one

10:24:03

13

line by line, they all seem -- the ones that I'm

10:24:04

14

spot-checking all seem consistent with the areas

10:24:08

15

that RAF works in and the names of engineers and

10:24:11

16

inventors at RAF that I am familiar with.

10:24:14

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:24:20

12

18

Q.

And from pages 4 through 8 of

10:24:20

19

Exhibit 51, do you recognize these as pending

10:24:28

20

patent applications of RAF Technology?

10:24:33

MR. KAPLAN:

21
22
23

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

10:24:36
10:24:37

THE WITNESS:

Similar to my prior

10:24:39

24

answer, the topics and the inventors are all

10:24:40

25

familiar based on spot-checking these, without

10:24:44

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52
1

reading them comprehensively.

10:24:47

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:24:50

Q.

3

On pages 8 and 9 of Exhibit 51, do you

10:24:51

4

recognize these as trademarks registered to RAF

10:24:55

5

Technology?

10:25:02

6

A.

10:25:04

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

Yeah.
Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

10:25:05
THE WITNESS:

9

10:25:04

Yes.

All of these

10:25:06

10

trademarks are familiar to me.

10:25:07

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:25:09

Q.

And pages 9 through 10, do you recognize

10:25:10

13

that list as pending trademark applications of RAF

10:25:14

14

Technology?

10:25:18

12

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

10:25:21
THE WITNESS:

17

10:25:20

Yes.

They all look

10:25:23

18

familiar to me from my service on the board at

10:25:24

19

RAF.

10:25:27

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:25:43

21

Q.

Done with that one.

Mr. Fruchterman, if you could pull out

22
23

Okay.

your resume again.

That was Exhibit 49.

10:25:44
10:25:44
10:25:44

24

A.

Okay.

10:25:48

25

Q.

Thank you.

10:25:50

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53
1

A.

All right.

10:25:56

2

Q.

According to your resume, Exhibit 49,

10:25:56

3

Mr. Fruchterman, you worked at a company called

10:25:59

4

Arkenstone, Inc., from 1989 through 2000?

10:26:02

5

A.

Yes.

10:26:07

6

Q.

What type of company was Arkenstone?

10:26:07

7

A.

It was a California public benefit

10:26:11

8

corporation that had 501(c)(3) charity status.

10:26:13

9

Q.

What types of products did it make?

10:26:17

10

A.

Primarily reading machines or systems

10:26:20

11

for people with disabilities.

10:26:22

12

Q.

What types of disabilities?

10:26:24

13

A.

Vision impairments, learning

10:26:27

14

disabilities, such as dyslexia, and physical

10:26:30

15

disabilities that might interfere with reading,

10:26:34

16

such as quadriplegia, fine motor control issues,

10:26:38

17

cerebral palsy, traumatic brain injury and others.

10:26:45

18
19

Q.

And these products that you just

described, they were sold to customers?

10:27:25
10:27:27

20

A.

Yes.

10:27:33

21

Q.

What services, if any, did Arkenstone

10:27:35

render to customers at the time you were there?

10:27:39

22
23

A.

It was primarily a product sales

10:27:48

24

company, and it rendered services associated with

10:27:50

25

the sale of the products, which included

10:27:53

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54
1

maintenance at one point in time, and customer

10:27:56

2

service and support.

10:28:02

3
4

Q.

What was the range of the sale price of

these reading machines at Arkenstone?

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

10:28:07
10:28:09

Foundation.

The first price point was

10:28:13
10:28:15

7

under $5,000 to turn a talking PC into a reading

10:28:18

8

machine.

10:28:24

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

10

Q.

And prices fell over the time period.

10:28:29

So it started around under 5,000.

As

10:28:29

11

Arkenstone continued and the technology got

10:28:32

12

better, faster, cheaper, the products got less

10:28:35

13

expensive?

10:28:39

14

A.

5,000, 4,000, 3,000, 2500, 1800, 1500.

10:28:40

15

Q.

And were the reading machines at

10:28:46

16

Arkenstone produced based upon Calera's OCR

10:28:48

17

technology?

10:28:54

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

20
21

Objection.

Foundation.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And you were the president, CEO,

10:28:55
10:28:56
10:28:56
10:29:01

22

chairman and founder from Arkenstone from 1989

10:29:03

23

through 2000?

10:29:05

24

A.

Correct.

10:29:08

25

Q.

Is this company still in business today?

10:29:09

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55
1

Arkenstone.

10:29:11

2

A.

Not under that name.

10:29:14

3

Q.

What happened to the company?

10:29:18

4

A.

It has been merged into the charity that

10:29:20

5
6
7

is now known commonly as Benetech.
Q.

In 2000, did Arkenstone sell its --

10:29:30

repeat -- I'm going to rephrase the question.

10:29:38

In 2000, did Arkenstone sell some -- at

8
9

least some of its assets to Freedom Scientific?

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11

THE WITNESS:

12

10:29:22

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

10:29:41
10:29:43
10:29:48
10:29:49

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:29:49

13

Q.

Do you remember the sale price?

10:29:50

14

A.

Approximately $5 million.

10:29:53

15

Q.

And was the money from that sale of the

10:29:56

16

Arkenstone assets to Freedom Scientific used to

10:29:59

17

found Benetech?

10:30:05

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

It was commonly described

10:30:11
10:30:12

20

as such.

10:30:13

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:30:13

22

Q.

Do you agree with that assessment?

10:30:15

23

A.

Yes.

10:30:18

24
25

But technically you might parse it

more finely.
Q.

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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56
1
2

was the Arkenstone Reader?
A.

The Arkenstone Reader was a device

10:30:32
10:30:37

3

designed to turn a standard personal computer into

10:30:44

4

a reading machine by adding a Calera TrueScan

10:30:47

5

card, a Hewlett-Packard Scanjet scanner and some

10:30:52

6

specialized software to an existing PC that

10:30:58

7

already had a voice synthesizer and a screen

10:31:02

8

reader, so that the ensemble would be able to scan

10:31:06

9

a document and read it aloud.

10:31:16

As a product of Arkenstone,

10:31:19

11

Mr. Fruchterman, what is or was the Arkenstone

10:31:21

12

portable hand scanner?

10:31:23

10

13

Q.

A.

I barely recall this product, but I

10:31:33

14

assume it was substituting the Hewlett-Packard

10:31:35

15

desktop Scanjet scanner with a bar scanner that

10:31:38

16

could feed a sheet of paper through a scanner.

10:31:42

17

Q.

Do you recall whether the Arkenstone

10:31:50

18

mark was registered with the U.S. Patent and

10:31:53

19

Trademark Office?

10:31:54

20

A.

I believe it was.

10:32:01

21

Q.

Were any parts of the Arkenstone Reader

10:32:08

22

sought for patent protection?

10:32:11

23

A.

Yes.

10:32:14

24

Q.

Which part?

10:32:15

25

A.

Actually, no.

Not that particular

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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57
1
2

product.
Q.

Not the Arkenstone Reader product.

10:32:25

Were any parts of the Arkenstone

10:32:29

3

portable hand scanner sought for patent

10:32:32

4

protection?

10:32:35

5

A.

No.

10:32:36

6

Q.

Was the software code for the Arkenstone

10:32:43

7

Reader registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?

10:32:45

8

A.

I don't recall.

10:32:53

9

Q.

Is there anything that would refresh

10:32:55

10

your recollection?

10:32:57

11

A.

Beyond a formal record, no.

10:33:00

12

Q.

Was the software code for the Arkenstone

10:33:03

13

portable hand scanner registered with the U.S.

10:33:06

14

Copyright Office?

10:33:08

15

A.

No.

10:33:10

16

Q.

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

10:33:14

17

was VERA, V-E-R-A?

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

10:33:17
Objection.

Compound.

The Very Easy Reading

10:33:19
10:33:22

20

Appliance was designed for senior citizens who

10:33:26

21

were uncomfortable using a computer.

10:33:30

22

wrapped the computer in a fake wooden case and

10:33:32

23

said, "This isn't a computer.

10:33:36

24

appliance, like a piece of hi-fi equipment."

So we

It's a reading

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
58
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:33:47

Was the VERA mark, to the best of your

10:33:48

3

recollection, registered with the U.S. Patent and

10:33:51

4

Trademark Office?

10:33:53

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

7
8
9

Objection.

Vague.

No.

10:33:55

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:33:54

10:33:56

Was the software code for the VERA

product registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?

10:33:58
10:34:03

10

A.

No.

10:34:07

11

Q.

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

10:34:09

12

was Open Book?

10:34:11

13

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

14

THE WITNESS:

Compound.

Similar to the transition

10:34:14
10:34:20

15

from the Calera TrueScan hardware card to the

10:34:21

16

WordScan software product, Open Book was a product

10:34:24

17

based on the WordScan technology to replace the

10:34:32

18

hardware coprocessor card with software running on

10:34:38

19

the computer's main CPU.

10:34:41

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:34:45

21

Q.

And Open Book ran over Windows software?

10:34:45

22

A.

Open Book was two different products

10:34:49

23

with a common name.

Open Book itself was a

24

reading machine sold as a hardware unit plus

10:35:05

25

scanner plus keypad.

10:35:09

And Open Book Unbound was

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
59
1

the software-only version that was designed to

10:35:14

2

turn a PC into a reading system.

10:35:17

3

were based on Microsoft Windows technology.

4

Q.

And all of these

So if I understand your testimony, the

10:35:23
10:35:28

5

Open -- Open Book was marketed as two different

10:35:31

6

products, at least at one time, one as an

10:35:34

7

appliance and the other one called Open Book

10:35:37

8

Unbound, as software?

10:35:40

9

A.

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

14
15

20
21

Misstates

Sorry.

Q.

10:35:45

Was the Open Book mark registered with

the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Foundation.

Vague.

10:35:45
10:35:47
10:35:51
10:35:54

THE WITNESS:

I don't remember.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:35:42

10:35:43

BY MR. HUDIS:

18
19

Objection.

10:35:43
THE WITNESS:

16
17

10:35:42

testimony.

12
13

Correct.

10:35:55
10:35:56

Is there anything that would refresh

your recollection?

10:35:57
10:35:58

22

A.

A formal registration indication.

10:36:00

23

Q.

Was the software code for Open Book

10:36:04

24
25

registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Foundation.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
60
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3
4

I don't recall.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:36:11
10:36:13

Is there anything that would refresh

your recollection?

10:36:18
10:36:19

5

A.

Not beyond a registration statement.

10:36:20

6

Q.

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

10:36:24

7

was WYNN, What You Need Now?

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

MR. HUDIS:
MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

10:36:26

Objection.

Compound.

That's all one product.
Yeah.

But you're asking

him what it was.

10:36:30
10:36:31
10:36:34
10:36:35

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

MR. KAPLAN:

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

THE WITNESS:

Or is.

10:36:37

What it is.

10:36:37

All right.

10:36:38

WYNN was similar to Open

10:36:47

16

Book Unbound as -- in that it was a OCR-based

10:36:48

17

software product.

10:36:56

18

for the needs of people with learning disabilities

10:36:57

19

rather than blind people.

10:36:59

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:37:03

21

Q.

It was specifically designed

Would it be correct to characterize

10:37:03

22

WYNN, What You Need Now, as a customizable user

10:37:05

23

interface for the Open Book software?

10:37:11

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

No.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
61
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

How would you describe it?

10:37:20

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

10:37:17

10:37:24

Objection.

Asked and

answered.

10:37:26
THE WITNESS:

5

I thought of it as a

10:37:29

6

completely different user interface designed for

10:37:34

7

the needs of people with learning disabilities

10:37:39

8

and, to some extent, people with low vision, that

10:37:42

9

was built on top of the same OCR technology as the

10:37:46

10

Open Book product but was not simply grafted onto

10:37:50

11

the Open Book product.

10:37:57

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:38:04

13

Q.

Did the Open Book -- did either of the

10:38:05

14

two Open Book products, whether it was the

10:38:08

15

appliance or the software, come with OCR

10:38:11

16

technology?

10:38:14

17

A.

10:38:16

MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

Objection.

Foundation,

vague.
Yes.

It was built in.

BY MR. HUDIS:

22

Q.

23

25

Did the WYNN product come with OCR

MR. KAPLAN:

10:38:18
10:38:20

technology?

24

10:38:16
10:38:18

THE WITNESS:

20
21

Yeah --

10:38:23
10:38:27

Objection.

Vague.

Foundation.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
62
THE WITNESS:

1

The primary WYNN product

10:38:29

2

did come with OCR technology.

10:38:31

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:38:35

4

Q.

Was the software code for the OCR

10:38:36

5

technology that was built into Open Book

10:38:41

6

registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?

10:38:43

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

Objection.

Foundation.

Vague.

10:38:46
THE WITNESS:

9

10:38:45

I believe that in the

10:38:48

10

documents that you've showed me, the companies

10:38:50

11

that make those OCR technologies did have

10:38:52

12

registrations and trademarks and patents.

10:38:57

13

Certainly my nonprofit didn't do anything separate

10:39:00

14

for the OCR technology.

10:39:03

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:39:04

16

Q.

18

21
22

10:39:07

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

10:39:07
Yes.

10:39:08

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:39:11

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

was Strider, S-T-R-I-D-E-R?

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Objection.

Foundation.

19
20

10:39:05

MR. KAPLAN:

17

And that would be true of WYNN as well?

Objection.

10:39:24
10:39:26

Compound.

10:39:30

It was a talking GPS

10:39:35

product designed to guide blind users to their

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:39:39

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
63
1

destination.

10:39:45

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:39:47

3
4

Q.

U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

foundation.

9
10

Q.

15
16

21
22

Not that I recall.

subject to U.S. patent protection?
MR. KAPLAN:

10:40:02

10:40:05

Objection.

Calls for a
Vague.

Yes.

was Atlas Speaks?

THE WITNESS:

10:40:11

10:40:14

As a product of Arkenstone, what is or

24

10:40:11

10:40:13

BY MR. HUDIS:

MR. KAPLAN:

10:40:05
10:40:08

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

Q.

10:40:00

10:40:05

Was any part of the Strider product

legal conclusion.

10:39:59

10:40:03

23

25

Lacks

BY MR. HUDIS:

19
20

Objection.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

Q.

10:39:53
10:39:58

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18

I do not believe so.

Was the software code for the Strider

foundation.

10:39:50
10:39:51

product registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?

13
14

Lacks

BY MR. HUDIS:

11
12

Objection.

10:39:47
10:39:48

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

7
8

Was the Strider mark registered with the

10:40:17
10:40:19

Objection.

Compound.

It was an accessible map

product for the blind, to look at maps and plot

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:40:28
10:40:32

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
64
1

routes.

It would be easy to characterize it as

2

Strider without the GPS.

10:40:38

3

MR. HUDIS:

4

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

5

7

Off the record.
Coming off the record

at 10:40.

10:40:53
10:40:54
10:40:56

MR. KAPLAN:

6

10:40:35

You need my consent to go

off the record.

10:41:03
10:41:03

8

Can you let me know why?

10:41:03

9

MR. HUDIS:

10:41:03

10

call.

10:41:03
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

I just want to take this

Okay.

Off the record is

fine.

10:41:08
10:41:09

13

(Discussion held off record.)

10:43:06

14

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

10:43:29

Back on the record at

15

10:43.

10:43:30

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:43:32

17

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, was the Atlas Speaks

10:43:35

18

mark registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark

10:43:36

19

Office?

10:43:38
MR. KAPLAN:

20
21

foundation.

23
24
25

Lacks

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

22

Objection.

10:43:40
I don't believe so.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:43:39

Do you know if the software code for the

Atlas Speaks product was registered with the U.S.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:43:41
10:43:41
10:43:44
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
65
1

Copyright Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

foundation.

6

Objection.

Lacks

Vague.
I don't know.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:43:51
10:43:51

THE WITNESS:

4
5

10:43:50

10:43:53
10:43:53

And we discussed that Arkenstone had an

10:43:54

7

asset sale to Freedom Scientific in 2000.

10:44:10

8

Do you remember that?

10:44:14
10:44:14

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

All right.

I'd like to know whether

10:44:15

11

each one of the following products was part of

10:44:17

12

that asset sale.

10:44:20

13

"no."

And you can just say "yes" or

10:44:23

14

Open Book?

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

foundation.

18
19

Q.

foundation.

24
25

Yes.

10:44:28
10:44:28
10:44:30

Objection.

Lacks

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

10:44:32
10:44:34

Strider?
MR. KAPLAN:

10:44:30
10:44:31

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:44:26
10:44:26

WYNN?
MR. KAPLAN:

22
23

Lacks

BY MR. HUDIS:

20
21

Objection.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

17

10:44:24

10:44:34
Objection.

Lacks

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
66
1

foundation.

4

Q.

9

14

Q.

19

I don't believe so.

Objection.

Lacks

Vague.
Yes.

10:44:50
10:44:50

The Arkenstone mark?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

10:44:50
Lacks

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

10:44:52
10:44:52

Yes.

10:44:53

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:44:47
10:44:48

BY MR. HUDIS:

foundation.

10:44:44

10:44:46

THE WITNESS:

Q.

10:44:42
10:44:43

VERA?

foundation.

17
18

Lacks

10:44:46

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Objection.

BY MR. HUDIS:

12
13

10:44:41

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

10
11

Atlas Speaks?

foundation.

10:44:40
10:44:41

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

I don't believe so.

BY MR. HUDIS:

5
6

10:44:35

THE WITNESS:

2
3

Vague.

10:44:55
Now, of the products that you

10:44:57

20

listed, that was part of the asset sale, was the

10:45:07

21

code for those products part of the asset sale?

10:45:10

22
23
24

MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

Objection.

Lacks

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

10:45:15
10:45:15

Yes.

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
67
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

MR. KAPLAN:
legal conclusion.

8

Objection.

Calls for a

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

6
7

Were the copyright rights for those

products transferred as parts of the asset sale?

4
5

10:45:19

Vague.

As a layman, I believe so.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:45:29
10:45:31
10:45:34
10:45:35
10:45:39
10:45:44

By yes or no, I'd like to know whether

10:45:46

the following technologies were sold to Freedom

10:45:49

10

Scientific by Arkenstone as part of the asset

10:45:53

11

sale.

10:45:58

9

12

Arkenstone Reader?

13

MR. KAPLAN:

14

Objection.

10:45:59
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

15

10:46:00
10:46:01

I'm not sure because I

16

don't think it was an active product.

17

probably could claim it, but I'm not sure we

10:46:17

18

actually did it because I don't think it was alive

10:46:20

19

at that time.

10:46:22

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:46:22

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

So they

10:46:13

Would your answer be the same for

10:46:23

Arkenstone portable scanner?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

10:46:24
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

10:46:14

10:46:27
10:46:28

Yes.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
68
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

THE WITNESS:

9
10
11
12

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

No.

The VERA product was

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 52 was
marked for identification.)
BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I show you now what has

MR. KAPLAN:

10:46:34
10:46:36
10:47:05
10:47:05
10:47:05

been marked as Exhibit 52.

13

10:46:32
10:46:33

active and sold as part of the asset sale.

8

10:46:29
10:46:31

foundation.

6
7

Would your answer be the same for the

VERA product?

4
5

10:46:29

10:47:05
10:47:08

Counsel, you'll represent

10:47:13

14

that this is another document created by your

10:47:14

15

office?

10:47:16
MR. HUDIS:

16

Yes.

From publicly

10:47:17

17

available records.

10:47:20

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:47:21

19

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, do you recognize in the

10:47:22

20

top chart on the single page of Exhibit 52 the

10:47:29

21

titles of patents that were owned by Arkenstone,

10:47:33

22

Inc., at one time?

10:47:38

23

A.

Yes.

10:47:40

24

Q.

And in the bottom chart, a copyright

10:47:42

25

registration that was owned by Arkenstone at one

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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69
1
2

time?
A.

10:47:49
I don't recognize that work.

And I'm

10:47:53

3

just -- the date predates the existence of

10:48:18

4

Arkenstone by seven years, so something's wrong

10:48:25

5

about this document.

10:48:30

6

Q.

10:48:32

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

Okay.
Is that true for the second

patent as well?

10:48:33
10:48:35

THE WITNESS:

I recognize the second

10:48:35

10

patent, but I think the date is wrong as well.

10:48:36

11

Whereas, the date on the first patent looks

10:48:40

12

vaguely right.

10:48:42

9

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 53A and

13
14

53B were marked for identification.)
THE WITNESS:

15
16
17

Thank you.

10:49:47

Mr. Fruchterman, I show you what has

18

been marked as Exhibits 53A and 53B.

19

look at Exhibit 53A.

22

Let's take a

10:49:48
10:49:49
10:49:56

Do you recognize this document?

20
21

10:49:34
10:49:35

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:49:34

A.

10:50:00

Yes.

10:50:03

It's a patent where I am listed as

an inventor.

10:50:06

23

Q.

And was issued on November 28, 1995?

10:50:08

24

A.

November 28th, 1995, yes.

10:50:17

25

Q.

And the patent number is listed as

10:50:19

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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70
1

5,470,233.

I will refer to this as "the

2

'233 patent."

10:50:22
10:50:28

Do you understand that?

3

10:50:30
10:50:31

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

All right.

What was the nature of the

10:50:31

6

invention claimed in the '233 patent of

10:50:33

7

Exhibit 53A?

10:50:36

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

legal conclusion.

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

10

Calls for a

In layman's term, it's a

10:50:38
10:50:39
10:50:45

11

patent on technology to help a blind person use

10:50:47

12

GPS to move around.

10:50:49

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:50:54

14
15

Q.

Was that the product that was sold by

Arkenstone under the Strider mark?

16

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

17

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

10:50:54
10:50:57

Vague.

We -- the Strider

10:50:59
10:51:08

18

product incorporated the patented technology

10:51:10

19

subject to this patent.

10:51:15

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:51:16

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

Who was the assigning owner of the

'233 patent when it issued in 1995?
MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

Vague.

Objection.

10:51:19
Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

10:51:16

Arkenstone.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:51:23
10:51:23
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
71
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:51:32

Mr. Fruchterman, if we could turn for a

moment to Exhibit 53B.

10:51:36

And if you could turn to the last page.

4

10:51:34

10:51:55

5

Actually, it's bordering on the fifth and sixth

10:51:59

6

pages.

10:52:02
You notice that there was an assignment

7
8

of the inventor's interest to Arkenstone, Inc.?

10:52:02
10:52:04

9

A.

Yes.

10:52:09

10

Q.

And ultimately, the patent was assigned

10:52:30

11

from Arkenstone to Freedom Scientific?
MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

foundation.

15

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

14

Objection.

10:52:34
10:52:37
Vague.

No.

10:52:37
10:52:39

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:52:39

16

Q.

It was not?

10:52:40

17

A.

It was not.

10:52:40

18

Q.

What happened -- today, as you sit here,

10:52:43

19

who is the current owner of the '233 patent of

10:52:50

20

Exhibit 53A?

10:52:57

MR. KAPLAN:

21
22

legal conclusion.

24
25

Calls for a

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

23

Objection.

The world.

10:52:58
It's expired.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:52:58

Before its expiration, who was the owner

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:53:01
10:53:02
10:53:03

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
72
1

of the '233 patent of Exhibit 53A?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

foundation.

Objection.

Lacks

10:53:09

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

4

10:53:06

10:53:11

Beneficent Technology,

10:53:14

5

Inc. which is the legal corporate name of

10:53:16

6

Benetech.

10:53:18

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:53:20

Q.

8
9
10

10:54:04

'233 patent was not a part of the asset sale from

10:54:06

Arkenstone to Freedom Scientific?

10:54:10

A.

11

That was --

10:54:12

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

So to the best of your recollection, the

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

10:54:13

THE WITNESS:

14

10:54:13

That was my understanding,

10:54:14

15

yes.

10:54:15

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:54:18

17
18

Q.

'233 patent ever licensed to third parties?
MR. KAPLAN:

19
20

foundation.

23
24
25

Vague.

Objection.

Lacks

10:54:23

Yes.

10:54:28

Was it licensed for royalties?
MR. KAPLAN:

10:54:23
10:54:26

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:54:18
10:54:20

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

21
22

While it was still active, was the

Objection.

Vague.

10:54:28
Lacks

foundation.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:54:30
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
73
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3
4

10:54:33

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:54:33

To whom was the '233 patent of

10:54:34

Exhibit 53A licensed at the time it was active?
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Yes.

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

10:54:41
10:54:41

THE WITNESS:

7

10:54:36

I don't know their full

10:54:45

8

legal name, but it's like the Sendero Group.

10:54:46

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:54:49

10

Q.

Spell Sendero.

10:54:50

11

A.

S-E-N-D-E-R-O.

10:54:51

12

Q.

Do you remember the financial terms of

10:54:55

13
14
15

the license?
A.

10:54:58

It was a minimum -- a minimal royalty,

and the payments were not large.

10:55:02
10:55:05

16

Q.

Define "not large."

10:55:13

17

A.

I'd be stunned if we collected $10,000

10:55:14

over the entire life of the patent in royalties.

10:55:17

18
19
20
21
22

Q.

Was Sendero the only company to whom the

'233 patent of Exhibit 53A was licensed?
MR. KAPLAN:
legal conclusion.

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks foundation.

10:55:23
10:55:27
10:55:27

There was another company

10:55:32

24

that was -- and I do not know the legal term, but

10:55:34

25

sort of a co-owner, and they had rights to

10:55:38

23

THE WITNESS:

Calls for a

10:55:20

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
74
1

practice the patent without paying us a royalty.

10:55:41

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:55:43

3

Q.

And who was that?

4

A.

They've gone by different names.

5
6

10:55:43
Their

current name is HumanWare.
Q.

10:55:48
10:55:51

Do you know what the name of the company

10:55:59

7

was at the time they were co-owner of the

10:56:00

8

'233 patent while it was active?

10:56:04

9

MR. KAPLAN:

10

testimony.

12
13

Misstates

Argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

11

Objection.

10:56:08

VisuAide, V-I-S-U-A-I-D-E.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10:56:07

10:56:11
10:56:41

Turning back to your resume of

10:56:41

14

Exhibit 49, Mr. Fruchterman, according to your

10:56:45

15

resume, Benetech was founded in 2000?

10:56:49

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

Objection.

Misstates the

document.

10:57:02
THE WITNESS:

18

10:57:01

My nonprofit activities

10:57:05

19

started operating under the Benetech name in 2000.

10:57:09

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:57:17

21
22

Q.

Now, the official name of the company is

Beneficent Technology, Inc., correct?

10:57:17
10:57:20

23

A.

Correct.

10:57:23

24

Q.

And it's located in Palo Alto,

10:57:23

25

California?

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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10:57:25

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
75
1

A.

Correct.

2

Q.

All right.

3
4
5
6
7

10

And it's a nonprofit

California company?
A.

Q.

10:57:27
10:57:29

I believe it's structured as a

10:57:32

California public benefit corporation.

10:57:33

And tell me the nature of -- withdraw

the question.

10:57:51
10:57:56

When I refer to "Benetech," we will

8
9

10:57:26

10:57:57

understand that that is the trade name for

10:57:59

Beneficent Technology?

10:58:02

11

A.

Okay.

10:58:08

12

Q.

Would you understand it that way?

10:58:09

13

A.

During the current time period, yes.

10:58:15

14

We've had more complicated legal structures in the

10:58:17

15

past, where "Benetech" might refer to any one of

10:58:19

16

three different corporate entities.

But I'm happy

10:58:23

17

just to call them all Benetech for the purposes of

10:58:25

18

this conversation.

10:58:27

Thank you.

10:58:28

20

What type of company is Benetech?

10:58:29

21

MR. KAPLAN:

10:58:31

22

THE WITNESS:

23

does technology for social good.

10:58:38

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:58:40

19

25

Q.

Q.

Objection.

Vague.

It's a charity.

And it

I've read, Mr. Fruchterman, that

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10:58:33

10:58:59

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
76
1

Benetech was started up from the result of the

10:59:00

2

asset sale from Arkenstone to Freedom Scientific.

10:59:04

3

Is that your understanding?

10:59:10

4

MR. KAPLAN:

10:59:11

5

answered.

Asked and

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

6

Objection.

10:59:12
There were a series of

10:59:14

7

legal transactions that, over time, have created

10:59:15

8

the Benetech we know today.

10:59:23

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

10:59:28

10
11
12

Q.

What were those to the best of your

recollection?
A.

The nonprofit that was formerly known as

10:59:29
10:59:30
10:59:31

13

Arkenstone changed its name, because the

10:59:38

14

Arkenstone name was sold to Freedom Scientific.

10:59:43

15

It had a charter limited to helping the disabled.

10:59:47

16

Beneficent Technology, Inc., was created

10:59:57

17

with as -- sorry, can't disclose -- let's just say

11:00:01

18

a vanilla charitable charter, so that it could do

11:00:04

19

a wider range of charitable activities.

11:00:08

A wholly owned for profit subsidiary

20

11:00:12

21

named Bengineering, Inc., was also created to

11:00:16

22

conduct services connected with the asset sale.

11:00:20

23

Q.

And what were those services?

11:00:28

24

A.

Primarily engineering services, to

11:00:29

25

continue the product development of the products

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:00:32

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
77
1

that were sold for a period following the asset

11:00:34

2

sale.

11:00:38
MR. KAPLAN:

3

Let me just interrupt here

I'm not sure exactly where you're

11:00:40

4

for a second.

5

going with this, but if we get into areas that are

11:00:44

6

potentially confidential information of Benetech

11:00:47

7

or other entities, my understanding of the

11:00:50

8

protective order is that neither party will

11:00:51

9

disclose the deposition transcript until 30 days

11:00:54

10

have elapsed, giving the -- giving us the

11:00:57

11

opportunity to designate portions or the entire

11:00:59

12

transcript as confidential.

11:01:02

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

Is that correct?

Counsel, that's correct.
Okay.

Good.

Just glad we

had that on the record.
THE WITNESS:

16

11:00:41

11:01:04
11:01:05
11:01:07

And nothing I've talked

11:01:08

17

about so far is, I believe, confidential.

11:01:09

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:01:11

19

Q.

20

good point.

21

requires you to disclose confidential information,

11:01:19

22

would you let us all know, please?

11:01:22

23

A.

Mr. Fruchterman, your counsel raises a
If anything I ask you in your mind

Yes.

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

11:01:11
11:01:14

11:01:24
Thank you.
I'll let you decide if

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11:01:26
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
78
1

there's a follow-up question.

11:01:33

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:01:39

3

Q.

So one of the products that has been

11:01:39

4

made by Benetech is a series of software tools for

11:01:46

5

people who are blind or have visual disabilities

11:01:51

6

to access printed information?

11:01:56

7

A.

That is some of what we do.

Sorry.

I

11:01:59

8

thought you had -- I thought I had given the

11:02:02

9

pause.

11:02:05
MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

14
15

11:02:05

question was going to be.
THE WITNESS:

12
13

I was wondering what the

11:02:06

Okay.

Okay.

11:02:08

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:02:09

And you have been the president, CEO,

11:02:09

chairman and founder since 2000?

11:02:12

16

A.

No.

11:02:14

17

Q.

What part of my last question was

11:02:20

18

incorrect?

19

A.

20
21

11:02:21
In 2000, I had all of those titles.

At

present, I am the founder and CEO.
Q.

I see.

So from 2000 to 2014, you were

11:02:26
11:02:30
11:02:36

22

the president, CEO, chairman and founder, at least

11:02:39

23

according to your resume, Exhibit 49.

11:02:43

24

A.

I believe so.

Yes.

25

Q.

And from 2015 -- well, to the present --

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11:02:47
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
79
1

we're still in 2015 -- you were the CEO and

11:02:53

2

founder?

11:02:55

3

A.

Correct.

11:03:01

4

Q.

Thank you.

11:03:02

5

What has been --

11:03:05

6

MR. KAPLAN:

11:03:06

7

Let me make sure the

witness's answer is finished.
THE WITNESS:

8

11:03:07

Would you like me to

11:03:12

explain in more detail how finely graded that

11:03:13

10

answer is, or are we good?

11:03:19

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:03:22

9

12

Q.

Well, my next question was going to be

11:03:22

13

the nature of your duties and responsibilities.

11:03:25

14

So if that would help you, please.

11:03:28

15

A.

Okay.

So I transferred the chairman's

11:03:36

16

responsibilities first in early 2014, and I ceased

11:03:41

17

being the president in the idea that we had a new

11:03:50

18

president in January of this year, though I

11:03:52

19

believe I stopped using the term "president"

11:03:56

20

somewhere during the last year at the suggestion

11:03:58

21

of one of my board members.

11:03:59

22
23

Q.

So from 2000 to 2014, what were your

general duties and responsibilities at Benetech?

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I was the main guy.

11:04:04
11:04:08
11:04:12

So in

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11:04:15

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
80
1

my role as chairman, I was responsible for the

11:04:22

2

standard duties of a chairman of a board of

11:04:25

3

directors, which I can elaborate if needed.

11:04:28

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:04:34

5

Q.

You ran board meetings?

11:04:34

6

A.

I did.

11:04:36

7

Q.

You set the agenda?

11:04:36

8

A.

I did.

11:04:38

9

Q.

You set policy for the company?

11:04:38

10

A.

In --

11:04:41

11

MR. KAPLAN:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I set policy for the

11:04:43
11:04:44

13

company in conjunction with either the board for

11:04:45

14

board-level issues or my management team for

11:04:48

15

issues that were the scope of the management

11:04:51

16

team's.

11:04:52

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:04:53

18
19

Q.

Does that generally describe your duties

and responsibilities as chairman?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

11:04:53
11:04:56
11:04:57

And up until 2015, starting in

2000, you were the president?

11:04:58
11:05:04

23

A.

Correct.

11:05:06

24

Q.

What were your duties and

11:05:06

responsibilities as president of --

11:05:08

25

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
81
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2
3

Objection.

11:05:10

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:05:10

-- Benetech?

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

11:05:10
Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

11:05:12

During that time period,

11:05:18

6

the title "president" and "chief executive

11:05:20

7

officer" were essentially interchangeable, and our

11:05:22

8

bylaws specified that the president was the

11:05:25

9

executive chief officer.

11:05:28

So my responsibilities with those dual

10

11:05:30

11

titles was to be the chief executive officer of a

11:05:33

12

nonprofit corporation, a public benefit

11:05:38

13

corporation, and so I oversaw everything.

11:05:40

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:05:48

15

Q.

Product development?

11:05:50

16

A.

I was responsible for all aspects of the

11:05:51

17

operations of the organization, from legal and

11:05:53

18

administrative, to technical and product, to

11:05:56

19

fundraising, to public relations, to advocacy.

20

was responsible for everything we did, ultimately,

11:06:04

21

in the role of chief executive officer.

11:06:08

22

I

Our chief financial officer had certain

11:05:58

11:06:14

23

statutory responsibilities and had a dotted line

11:06:16

24

to our board of directors, but I was her

11:06:20

25

supervisor.

11:06:21

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
82
Mr. Fruchterman, what is Bookshare?

11:06:30

2

MR. KAPLAN:

11:06:32

3

THE WITNESS:

4

people with print disabilities.

11:06:37

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:06:41

1

Q.

Vague.

It's a digital library for

11:06:35

Is Bookshare part of Benetech?

11:06:41

7

MR. KAPLAN:

Vague.

11:06:48

8

THE WITNESS:

It's a project of

11:06:50

6

9
10

Q.

Objection.

Objection.

Benetech.

11:06:53

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:06:53

11

Q.

What do you mean by "project"?

11:06:54

12

A.

Benetech runs multiple projects that

11:06:59

13

target different social needs, and we have

11:07:04

14

programs that are a level-above project that

11:07:11

15

target an area of social need.

11:07:14

So it's a project.

16

Q.

Is Bookshare a stand-alone corporation?

11:07:19

17

A.

No.

11:07:23

18

Q.

Is Bookshare an unincorporated division

11:07:24

19
20
21
22

of Benetech?
MR. KAPLAN:

11:07:27
Objection.

Vague.

Calls

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

11:07:31
11:07:36

We wouldn't call it a

11:07:42

23

division, and the only active corporate entity at

11:07:43

24

Benetech today is Beneficent Technology, Inc., and

11:07:53

25

all the things I'm describing operate under that

11:07:57

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
83
1

corporate entity.

11:08:00

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:08:01

3
4

Q.

You would describe Bookshare as a

project of Benetech?

5

A.
Q.

All right.

11:08:03

Yes.

6
7

11:08:01

11:08:07
And that Bookshare project

is still ongoing today?

11:08:08
11:08:11

8

A.

Yes.

11:08:13

9

Q.

And it has been operating as a project

11:08:14

10

of Benetech since 2002?

11:08:16

11

A.

Publicly, yes.

11:08:21

12

Q.

Why did you, in your last answer,

11:08:23

13

qualify it with "publicly"?
When a technology product is created,

11:08:32

15

it's often operating -- being tested before its

11:08:35

16

actual public release date.

11:08:40

17

date was, I believe, in 2002, but we were working

11:08:43

18

on Bookshare or doing initial testing or beta

11:08:46

19

testing probably in 2001.

11:08:55

14

20
21
22

A.

11:08:26

Q.

Now, you described the Bookshare project

as a technology product.
A.

So its public release

11:08:56

Why?

11:08:58

If you look at what Bookshare is, you

11:09:05

23

can think of it as a web platform that operates a

11:09:10

24

large body of software that delivers an online

11:09:16

25

library.

11:09:19

So I think of Amazon.com as a technology

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
84
1

product as well, even though it's a whole bunch of

11:09:26

2

technology that looks like a web site.

11:09:31

3
4

Q.

As a product of Benetech, what is or was

Read2Go?

11:09:57
11:10:00

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Compound.

11:10:01

Read2Go is what people

11:10:05

7

would commonly call an iPad or iPhone app that

11:10:09

8

is designed primarily as an eBook reading

11:10:15

9

product for people with disabilities.

11:10:18

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:10:29

10
11
12

Q.

U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

foundation.

Objection.

11:10:29
11:10:30

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

15
16

Was the Read2Go mark registered with the

11:10:32
Vague.

It may have been.

11:10:32
11:10:37

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:10:40

17

Q.

18

anything?

19

A.

A public record of the registration.

11:10:45

20

Q.

Was the software code for Read2Go

11:10:48

21
22
23
24

What would refresh your recollection, if

11:10:42
11:10:44

registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?
MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

Objection.

Vague.

11:10:50
Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

I don't know.

25
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11:10:54
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11:10:57

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
85
1

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:10:58

2

Q.

What would refresh your recollection?

11:11:05

3

A.

A public registration statement.

11:11:07

4

Q.

As a product of Benetech, what is or was

11:11:09

5

Go Read?
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

11:11:11
Objection.

Compound.

Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS:

8

11:11:14
11:11:15

It's an Android app that

11:11:18

is designed as an eBook reader for people with

11:11:21

10

disabilities.

11:11:25

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:11:28

9

12
13
14
15
16
17
18

Q.

When you say "people with disabilities,"

do you mean people with reading disabilities?
A.

I -- it's designed primarily for people

with print disabilities.
Q.

Could you define in this context people

with print disabilities?
A.

People who have a disability that

11:11:28
11:11:29
11:11:40
11:11:43
11:11:47
11:11:48
11:11:52

19

functionally interferes with their ability to read

11:11:54

20

standard print.

11:11:57

21
22

Q.

In this context, what do you mean by

"standard print"?

11:12:05

For example, one of the printed

11:12:10

24

documents that we are looking at here, if a person

11:12:12

25

with a disability can't pick that page up, can't

11:12:14

23

A.

11:12:04

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
86
1

look at it, can't read it, can't track along the

11:12:18

2

lines, can't recall what they've read when they've

11:12:22

3

completed reading -- so basically as a normal

11:12:26

4

person without a disability, I can pick up a print

11:12:31

5

document and acquire the knowledge that's there.

11:12:34

6

And a person with a print disability has

11:12:35

7

some limitation that interferes with that process.

11:12:38

8

Typically blindness or severe dyslexia or cerebral

11:12:44

9

palsy that keeps them from being able to hold the

11:12:50

10

page still or -- and I can could go on with a wide

11:12:53

11

range of disabilities that get in the way.

11:12:56

12

Q.

So we would -- so people who have print

11:12:57

13

disabilities either have a finer gross motor

11:13:00

14

disability that keeps the person from picking up

11:13:06

15

the printed page and turning the pages; is that

11:13:10

16

one type of print disability?

11:13:12

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18

testimony.

Misstates

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

19

Objection.

11:13:14
11:13:16

That would be one type of

11:13:19

20

print disability.

11:13:22

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:13:22

22
23

Q.

And another type of disability could be

total blindness?

11:13:23
11:13:25

24

A.

Yes.

11:13:28

25

Q.

Low vision?

11:13:29

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
87
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

3
4

Objection.

Q.

11:13:34

THE WITNESS:

9

14
15

20
21
22
23
24
25

11:13:37

Was the Go Read mark registered with the

foundation.

Vague.

Objection.

Lacks

I don't believe so.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

product registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?
MR. KAPLAN:
Vague.

Objection.

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

No.

11:13:47
11:13:50

11:13:57
11:13:59
11:14:00

11:14:03

As a product of Benetech, what is or was

the Bookshare Web Reader?
MR. KAPLAN:
Argumentative.

11:13:54

11:14:02

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:13:46

11:13:54

Was the software code for the Go Read

foundation.

11:13:42
11:13:44

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

18
19

Yes.

11:13:36

11:13:38

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

Vague.

U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?

12
13

Objection.

BY MR. HUDIS:

10
11

11:13:33

Dyslexia?

6

Q.

11:13:32

11:13:34

MR. KAPLAN:

8

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:

5

7

Vague.

Objection.

11:14:09
Compound.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

11:14:05

It's a set of technology

that is added into the Bookshare web site that

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11:14:13
11:14:14
11:14:23
11:14:25

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
88
1

allows for an eBook to be read while in a web

11:14:30

2

browser, either with associated assistive

11:14:38

3

technology or by itself.

11:14:43

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:14:48

5
6
7

Q.

In this context, what did you mean by

"associated assistive technology"?
A.

11:14:48
11:14:50

Some users of the web reader would be

11:14:56

8

using a screen reader to make what's on the screen

11:15:01

9

of their personal computer or device accessible.

11:15:06

10
11

Q.

An example of a screen reader would be,

for example, JAWS?

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14
15

11:15:16
Objection.

Vague.

11:15:18

Yes.

11:15:19

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:15:13

11:15:22

Was the Bookshare Web Reader mark

11:15:22

16

registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark

11:15:25

17

Office?

11:15:26
MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

foundation.

21
22

Vague.

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

20

Objection.

11:15:28

I don't believe so.

11:15:31

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:15:27

11:15:31

Was the software code for the Bookshare

11:15:32

23

Web Reader registered with the U.S. Copyright

11:15:35

24

Office?

11:15:39

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Calls

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
89
1

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

2
3

And lacks foundation.
No.

11:15:47

BY MR. HUDIS:

4

Q.

5

11:15:48

Bookshelf?

7

As a product of Benetech, what is or was

Argumentative.

Objection.

Compound.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

8

11:15:48
11:15:50

MR. KAPLAN:

6

11:15:40

11:15:51
11:15:52

It was a feature of

11:15:56

individual accounts for a period of time on the

11:16:00

10

Bookshare web site.

11:16:03

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:16:08

9

The product's no longer in use?

11:16:08

13

MR. KAPLAN:

Vague.

11:16:11

14

THE WITNESS:

Not by that name.

11:16:14

12

15
16
17

Q.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

22
23
24
25

What is it -- what does the product go

foundation.

Vague.

Objection.

Lacks

11:16:20

Argumentative.

THE WITNESS:

11:16:21

I believe Reading Lists.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:16:23
11:16:32

Was the Bookshelf mark registered with

the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

11:16:14
11:16:17

MR. KAPLAN:

20
21

11:16:14

under today?

18
19

Objection.

Objection.

Vague.

11:16:32
11:16:35

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

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11:16:38
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
90
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3

Not by Benetech.

11:16:40

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:16:42
11:16:44

Was the Bookshelf mark registered by

4

Was the Bookshare -- excuse me.

11:16:47

5

somebody else with the U.S. Patent and Trademark

11:16:50

6

Office?

11:16:50
MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

foundation.

11

Vague.

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

9
10

Objection.

11:16:53

That is my understanding.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:16:51

11:16:56
11:16:57

And who registered Bookshelf with the

11:16:58

12

U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, to the best of

11:16:59

13

your knowledge?

11:17:03

MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

Objection.

Vague and calls

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

16

11:17:08
This may be a place where

17

we're getting into confidential material.

18

just going to put that on the record.
MR. HUDIS:

19

11:17:03

I'm

We're almost out of tape,

11:17:14
11:17:15
11:17:17
11:17:23

20

but let's put the next question and answer on the

11:17:24

21

confidential portion of the record.

11:17:29

Let's go off the record so we can change

22
23
24
25

the tape.

11:17:31
11:17:33

MR. KAPLAN:

Okay.

Counsel, would this

be a good time to take a break --

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
91
1

MR. HUDIS:

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

MR. HUDIS:

4

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

11:17:39

-- to stretch our legs?

11:17:39

Yes.

11:17:41
Going off the record

11:17:42

This is the end of Tape No. 1.

11:17:43

6

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

11:17:48

7

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

11:30:57

5

at 11:17.

Yes.

Here begins Tape

8

No. 2 in the deposition of James Fruchterman.

9

are back on the record at 11:31.

11:31:02

MR. KAPLAN:

11:31:08

10

We

So, Counsel, pursuant to

11:30:58

11

paragraph 1E of the protective order in this

11:31:10

12

action, we agree to provisionally designate the

11:31:12

13

transcript as confidential for 30 days and shall

11:31:15

14

make such specific designations of the transcript

11:31:20

15

before the end of that time.

11:31:23

16

that paragraph number wrong, but under the

11:31:26

17

protective order.

11:31:28

18

MR. HUDIS:

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20
21

I may have gotten

Agreed.
Thank you.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, my last question to

11:31:32
11:31:33
11:31:33
11:31:34

22

you was whether the Bookshelf mark had been

11:31:36

23

registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark

11:31:43

24

Office by someone else.

11:31:45

25

A.

Yes.

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11:31:47

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
92
1

Q.

All right.

And to the best of your

11:31:47

2

knowledge, who registered the mark with the

11:31:49

3

trademark office?

11:31:52

4
5

A.

I don't remember which company.

It was

a big company.

11:31:53
11:31:56

6

Q.

But you don't remember whom?

11:32:04

7

A.

No.

11:32:06

8

Q.

Anything that would refresh your

9
10

I -- I wouldn't care to guess.

11:32:10

recollection?
A.

11:32:11

A public registration of the term

11:32:13

11

"Bookshelf" as it applies in the digital world, or

11:32:16

12

something along those lines.

11:32:23

13
14

Q.

Was the software code for the Bookshelf

product registered with the U.S. Copyright Office?
MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

foundation.

Vague.

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

17

Objection.

No.

And Bookshelf was a

11:32:24
11:32:25
11:32:28
11:32:29
11:32:32

18

feature, not really a product.

11:32:34

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:32:38

20

Q.

And why do you describe it as a feature?

11:32:39

21

A.

Well, it's part of the Bookshare site

11:32:43

22

code, and there are many, many things that the

11:32:48

23

Bookshare site code does, and this was just one

11:32:52

24

thing.

11:32:56

25

Bookshare.

It -- it -- it makes no sense apart from

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
93
1
2

Q.

And it's purpose is to organize

selections by the reader?

3

MR. KAPLAN:

4

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

11:33:03
11:33:08

Vague.

I believe the primary

11:33:11
11:33:13

5

purpose of this feature was to make it easier for

11:33:14

6

teachers to assign a list of materials for a

11:33:18

7

student to read.

11:33:22

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:33:23

9

Q.

And Bookshelf, to the best of your

11:33:23

10

recollection, is now offered as a feature under

11:33:25

11

the name Reading Lists?

11:33:28

12

A.

Correct.

11:33:31

13

Q.

Are any of -- is the Read2Go product

11:33:35

14

offered for a fee?

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

17
18
19
20

11:33:46
Objection.

Vague.

No.

11:33:53

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:33:57

Is the Go Read product offered for a

fee?
A.

11:33:49

11:33:57
11:33:59

Okay.

I want --

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

11:34:00
Vague.

I want to correct my

11:34:01
11:34:02

23

testimony.

11:34:03

24

BY MR. KAPLAN:

11:34:04

25

Q.

Please.

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11:34:04

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
94
A.

1
2

Okay.

We're talking about two different

eBook readers.

11:34:04
11:34:05

3

Q.

Right.

11:34:07

4

A.

And the first question you asked was is

11:34:08

5

the Read2Go product offered for a fee.

6

Q.

For a fee?

7

A.

And the correct answer is, yes.

11:34:09

8

11:34:12
It's

listed in the Apple App Store for a fee.
And your -- the question that was

9

11:34:14
11:34:16
11:34:30

10

pending was whether Go Read was offered for a fee.

11:34:31

11

And the answer is, no, it is not offered for a

11:34:35

12

fee.

11:34:36

It's available for free.

13

Q.

14

Is the Bookshare Web Reader offered for

a fee?

11:34:49

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

17
18

Objection.

Vague.

Not for a separate fee.

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

11:34:46

11:34:51
11:34:53
11:34:58

Is it part of the fee that one would pay

19

to become a member of Bookshare?

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

11:34:58
11:35:10

Vague.

11:35:13

The web reader is part of

11:35:21

Whether or not you need

11:35:23

22

the Bookshare web site.

23

to pay a fee depends on the material you read and

11:35:27

24

whether or not a third party is effectively paying

11:35:31

25

for your fee, your subscription fee.

11:35:35

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
95
1
2

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

11:35:41

So if a third party does not pay the

11:35:41

3

user subscription fee, would a Bookshare member

11:35:44

4

have to pay for the Bookshare Web Reader?

11:35:50

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

hypothetical.

7

Incomplete

Argumentative.

10
11

Lacks foundation.

11:35:52
11:35:55
11:35:57

THE WITNESS:

8
9

Vague.

Objection.

If they wish to read

11:35:58

copyrighted material.

11:36:00

BY MR. KAPLAN:

11:36:11

Q.

If the user wishes to read copyrighted

11:36:12

12

material, then there would be a fee associated

11:36:15

13

with the user using the Bookshare Web Reader?

11:36:17

MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

hypothetical.

16

Objection.

Incomplete

Misstates the testimony.

Vague.

Lacks foundation.

11:36:23
11:36:26
11:36:28

17

THE WITNESS:

18

subscription web site.

19

the Bookshare Web Reader is a feature of that web

11:36:39

20

site that is included in your subscription, much

11:36:41

21

as your Reading Lists are included as a feature of

11:36:51

22

the web site's operation.

11:36:53

23

BY MR. KAPLAN:

11:36:55

24
25

Q.

Bookshare is a

11:36:30

If you are a subscriber,

11:36:31

Separate and apart from the subscription

fee for Bookshare, does, in any circumstance, the

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
96
1

user pay a separate fee for the Bookshare web

11:37:05

2

reader?

11:37:08
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Argumentative.

6

Vague.

11:37:08

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

5

Objection.

11:37:09

Not by Benetech.

11:37:15

BY MR. HUDIS:
Would somebody else charge that fee?

11:37:17

8

MR. KAPLAN:

11:37:20

9

THE WITNESS:

7

Q.

11:37:17

Objection.

Vague.

It's an open source

11:37:23

10

product, to my knowledge, and under open source

11:37:24

11

licensing, it is possible for someone to grab a

11:37:32

12

piece of open source code and, within the

11:37:34

13

constraints of that license, charge some fees.

11:37:37

14

I'm not aware of anyone doing that at this moment.

11:37:46

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:37:50

And what used to be Bookshelf, now

11:37:50

17

Reading Lists, is a feature of the Bookshare

11:37:52

18

service?

11:37:56

16

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

19
20

Argumentative.

Vague.
Yes.

11:38:00

BY MR. HUDIS:

23

Q.

24

11:38:01

Lists?

25

11:37:56
11:37:58

THE WITNESS:

21
22

Objection.

Is a separate fee charged for Reading

11:38:02
11:38:05

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:38:05

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
97
1

foundation.

THE WITNESS:

2
3

Argumentative.

11:38:06

No.

11:38:08

BY MR. HUDIS:

4

Q.

5

11:38:08

Bookshelf?

foundation.

9
10
11

Objection.

Lacks

Q.

No.

11:38:14
11:38:16

Do I understand correctly that Read2Go

is an eReader for an Apple product?
MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

11:38:37
11:38:39
11:38:43
11:38:44

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:38:46
Can anyone acquire Read2Go

11:38:48

16

for use with an Apple product or must the person

11:38:51

17

show proof of a print disability?

11:38:55

15

Q.

11:38:11
11:38:12

BY MR. HUDIS:

12

14

Vague.

Argumentative.

THE WITNESS:

8

11:38:09
11:38:10

MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

Was a separate fee charged for

MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

All right.

Lacks foundation.

Compound.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

20

Objection.

11:38:58
11:39:01

Anyone can purchase the

11:39:07

21

product online without showing proof of

11:39:09

22

disability.

11:39:12

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:39:12

24
25

Q.

Is that also true for Go Read?

11:39:13

MR. KAPLAN:

11:39:15

Objection.

Lacks

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
98
1

foundation.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

2

11:39:16
Anyone is able to download

11:39:20

3

Go Read and use it to read any material.

11:39:22

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:39:25

5
6
7

Q.

print disability?
A.

11:39:29

That is correct.

11:39:29
11:39:50

marked for identification.)
MR. HUDIS:

11:39:50

Mr. Fruchterman, I now show

11:39:50

you what's been marked as Exhibit Fruchterman 54.

11:40:11

10
11

11:39:25

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 54 was

8
9

Without -- without showing proof of

Counsel, just to speed up, I will

12

11:40:15

13

represent this was prepared by my office from

11:40:17

14

publicly available information.

11:40:20

15

MR. KAPLAN:

11:40:23

16
17

Thank you.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:40:24

Mr. Fruchterman, could you please look
And I ask

11:40:26

18

at pages 1 through 3 of Exhibit 54.

19

you, do you recognize these as registered

11:40:37

20

trademarks of Beneficent Technology, Inc.?

11:40:40

11:40:29

21

A.

Yes.

11:40:49

22

Q.

And on page 4 of Exhibit 54, do you

11:40:50

23

recognize Martus client software as a registered

11:40:53

24

copyright owned by Beneficent Technology, Inc.?

11:40:56

25

A.

Yes.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:41:02

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
99
1

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, what is Bookshare's

2

University Partnership Program?

3

MR. KAPLAN:

4

Lacks foundation.

11:41:16
Argumentative.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

5

Objection.

11:41:13

11:41:21
11:41:23

It's a program where

11:41:31

6

universities that have scanned books for students

11:41:33

7

can add them to the Bookshare collection so that

11:41:38

8

other people don't have to scan the same work, to

11:41:43

9

make it accessible to people with disabilities.

11:41:46

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:41:50

10
11

Q.

Print disabilities?

11:41:50

12

A.

Correct.

11:41:51

13

Q.

When was the Bookshare University

11:41:52

14

Partnership Program started?
MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Objection.

11:41:54
Lacks

foundation.

11:41:59

THE WITNESS:

17
18

date.

19

I don't know a precise

BY MR. HUDIS:

20

In the last six years.

Q.

22

answered.

24

11:42:03

Objection.

11:42:03
Asked and

Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS:

23

11:41:59
11:42:00

Around 2009 maybe?
MR. KAPLAN:

21

11:41:58

I don't have an exact date

for you.

25
CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:42:07
11:42:07
11:42:09
11:42:10

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
100
1

BY MR. HUDIS:
To the best of your knowledge, which

11:42:11

3

major publishers have agreed to donate digital

11:42:14

4

files of their books to Bookshare?

11:42:16

2

Q.

11:42:11

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Lacks foundation.

Argumentative.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

7

Objection.

8

have done so.

9

Random House, Penguin.

11:42:18
11:42:19

More than 500 publishers

HarperCollins, Simon & Schuster,
But I don't want to

11:42:20
11:42:23
11:42:30

10

characterize a publisher as not major by omission

11:42:36

11

from my list.

11:42:39

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:42:47

13

Q.

Before becoming part of Bookshare's

11:42:47

14

University Partnership Program, did any of the

11:42:49

15

publishers express to you concern about the

11:42:51

16

sighted community taking unfair advantage by

11:42:56

17

downloading from Bookshare's -- from Bookshare the

11:42:59

18

digital files of their books without permission or

11:43:02

19

payment?

11:43:04

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

22
23
24
25

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

11:43:19

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:43:20

Which of the publishers -- which of the

publishers expressed such a concern?
MR. KAPLAN:

11:43:06

Objection.

Lacks

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:43:23
11:43:25
11:43:28

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
101
1

foundation.

11:43:29

THE WITNESS:

2

To the best of my

11:43:35

3

recollection, it would have been a higher ed

11:43:36

4

publisher.

11:43:41

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:43:43

6
7

Q.

Do you remember the name of the higher

ed publisher?

11:43:43
11:43:48

8

A.

I do not.

11:43:50

9

Q.

What, if anything, did they say to you?

11:43:50

MR. KAPLAN:

11:43:52

10
11

Objection.

Lacks

foundation.

11:43:53

THE WITNESS:

12

We've had many
And your question

11:43:56

13

conversations with publishers.

14

touches effectively on whether someone without a

11:44:11

15

qualifying disability can sign up for Bookshare.

11:44:14

11:43:57

16

And so publishers would ask us questions

11:44:24

17

about our sign-up process and about our mechanisms

11:44:28

18

to prevent nondisabled people from signing up for

11:44:36

19

Bookshare.

11:44:42

20

conversations about those processes.

11:44:45

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:44:46

22

Q.

So I'd say we certainly have had

And when such concerns were expressed to

11:44:47

23

you, what did you tell those publishers about

11:44:49

24

Bookshare's sign-up process?

11:44:53

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:44:57

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
102
THE WITNESS:

1

We discussed at length the

11:44:59

2

mechanisms by which people provide proof of

11:45:02

3

disability.

11:45:08

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:45:09

5

Q.

And after providing that explanation to

11:45:10

6

the publishers, were they satisfied with the

11:45:13

7

explanations and, as a result, went forward by

11:45:18

8

joining Bookshare's University Partnership

11:45:22

9

Program?

11:45:23
MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

for speculation.

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

Vague.

Calls

11:45:26

Compound.

11:45:27

That question actually

11:45:32

12

THE WITNESS:

13

doesn't make sense as structured.

11:45:32

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:45:34

15

Q.

Okay.

11:45:34

16

A.

Because the University Partners Program

11:45:34

17

is not a publisher program.

It's a university

18

program separate from publishers and separate from

11:45:40

19

university presses.

11:45:43

20

together.

21

Q.

So the question doesn't hold

11:45:37

11:45:46
So -- so the entities that expressed

11:45:47

22

concerns with -- if any, with Bookshare's

11:45:52

23

University Partnership Program were not the

11:45:55

24

universities, but it was the publishers?

11:45:57

25

A.

Correct.

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11:45:58

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
103
1

Q.

All right.

And after you gave them an

11:45:59

2

explanation about the sign-up process for

11:46:06

3

Bookshare, did the publishers allow their

11:46:07

4

publications to be offered as part of the

11:46:11

5

University Partnership Program?

11:46:14

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

Vague.

10
11
12

11:46:18

Lacks foundation.

11:46:20
11:46:21

Still, that question

doesn't make sense.

11:46:21

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:46:23

Q.

Okay.

What doesn't make -- what would

make your understanding of my question clearer?
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

Argumentative.

THE WITNESS:

8
9

Objection.

speculation.

Calls for

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

15

Objection.

11:46:23
11:46:24
11:46:32
11:46:32

Okay.

You keep linking

11:46:36

16

the University Partners Program to publishers.

11:46:37

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:46:40

18

Q.

Right.

19

A.

They're not linked.

11:46:40
So any time you ask

11:46:41

20

me a question about publishers and then the

11:46:44

21

University Partners Program, I just have to say,

11:46:45

22

sorry, that -- those don't go together.

11:46:47

23

apples and oranges.

24
25

Those are

Do you want to just talk about
publishers?

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11:46:51
11:46:54
11:46:55

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
104
1

Q.

Sure.

11:46:56

2

A.

Let's talk about that.

11:46:57

3

Q.

Well -- fine.

11:46:57

So you had whole libraries as part of

11:46:58

4
5

the University Partnership Program who digitized

11:47:01

6

the works in their collections and made them

11:47:04

7

available as part of Bookshare, correct?

11:47:06

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

testimony.

Misstates

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

10

Objection.

11:47:09
11:47:10

No, that's not what I've

11:47:11

11

said.

11:47:12

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:47:13

13
14

Q.

All right.

How does the University

Partnership Program work?

11:47:13
11:47:15

15

A.

So let's break this into two halves.

11:47:20

16

Q.

Sure.

11:47:24

17

A.

The interaction with the disabled

11:47:24

student and the interaction with Bookshare.

11:47:26

18
19

So universities -- many universities

11:47:29

20

have a disabled student services center that is

11:47:32

21

responsible for responding to accommodation

11:47:35

22

requests from students with disabilities.

11:47:40

23

A common request is that a

11:47:43

24

print-disabled student will come to the disabled

11:47:47

25

student services office and say, "I need this book

11:47:50

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
105
1

for my class."

11:47:53

There are many different ways that a

2

11:47:58

3

disabled student services office can fulfill that

11:48:00

4

request.

11:48:04

5

one that they don't prefer to go for if they can

11:48:07

6

avoid it, is to scan the entire book.

11:48:11

7

that entire book and provide it to the student,

11:48:14

8

satisfying their obligation to the student.

11:48:17

One of the possible ways, and generally

They scan

Now, a university disabled student

9

11:48:24

10

services office can voluntarily sign up for the

11:48:26

11

University Partners Program on behalf of their

11:48:31

12

university, going through whatever process, and

11:48:35

13

send Bookshare copies of accessible versions of

11:48:37

14

textbooks or books needed for education and add

11:48:43

15

them to the -- and we will add them to the

11:48:47

16

Bookshare collection as a way to save potentially

11:48:49

17

other universities from having to scan the same

11:48:56

18

book at expense and delay.

11:48:58

19

program works.

So that's how that

11:49:02

20

Q.

Thank you for that explanation.

11:49:09

21

A.

Mh-hmm.

11:49:11

22

Q.

Now, if I am a publisher of one of those

11:49:13

23

books --

11:49:16

24

A.

Yes.

11:49:17

25

Q.

-- I might have a problem with -- if

11:49:17

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
106
1

there weren't proper safeguards in place -- having

11:49:21

2

my text made part of Bookshare so that the sighted

11:49:27

3

community takes unfair advantage.

11:49:38

Now, my question goes back to --

4

11:49:40

5

A.

Mh-hmm.

11:49:42

6

Q.

-- did any of the publishers express a

11:49:42

7

concern with the University Partnership Program by

11:49:46

8

having their books made available on Bookshare?

11:49:51

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

Argumentative.

12
13

Q.

No.

11:50:06
11:50:07

Why not?
MR. KAPLAN:

speculation.

11:50:07
Objection.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

16

11:49:57
11:50:00

BY MR. HUDIS:

14
15

Vague.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

11

Objection.

Calls for

11:50:09

Vague.

11:50:10

In my earlier testimony

11:50:13

17

where we had conversations with publishers about

11:50:15

18

our qualification processes, the University

11:50:18

19

Partnership Program never came up.

11:50:21

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:50:26

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

Okay.

What is Benetech's Route 66

Literacy Project?
MR. KAPLAN:

11:50:33
Objection.

Argumentative.

Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS:

11:50:30

11:50:35
11:50:36

It's a project to help

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:50:40

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
107
1

people with developmental disabilities learn how

11:50:41

2

to read.

11:50:45

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:50:49

And is the program web-based?

11:50:50

5

MR. KAPLAN:

11:50:52

6

THE WITNESS:

4

7
8
9

Q.

Vague.

Yes.

11:50:53

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:50:54

Is the uploading of copyrighted text

part of the Route 66 Literacy Project?
MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

Objection.

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

12

Objection.

Vague.

11:51:01
Calls

Lacks foundation.

licensed content, both pictures and text.

14

sorry.

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

16
17
18
19

Q.
answer.
A.

We --

I'll wait for your next question.

11:51:18
11:51:24
11:51:37
11:51:42

Oh, I was going to let you finish your
I'm sorry.

11:51:42
11:51:44

Maybe you should restate the question to

make sure I've answered it completely.

11:51:45
11:51:48

Well, you said that Route 66 -- that the

11:51:50

21

Route 66 Literacy Project is deployed using openly

11:51:52

22

licensed content, pictures and text.

11:52:00

20

Q.

11:51:07
11:51:08

Route 66 focuses on openly

13

11:50:59

23

A.

Correct.

11:52:03

24

Q.

In what way?

11:52:05

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Misstates

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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11:52:05

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
108
1

testimony.

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

2

11:52:06
It's a community of people

11:52:13

3

that want to help people with developmental

11:52:14

4

disabilities learn to read.

11:52:17

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:52:18

6

Q.

Using openly licensed content?

11:52:18

7

A.

And if they provide the content to Route

11:52:21

8

66, it's on the understanding that it be openly

11:52:24

9

licensed.

11:52:29

10

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

What is Martus?
Objection.

11:52:29
Lacks

foundation.

11:52:34

THE WITNESS:

13

11:52:33

Martus is our software for

11:52:35

14

human rights activists.

11:52:36

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:52:42

16
17

Q.

And it's used to capture and effectively

use human rights violations data?

11:52:42
11:52:44

18

A.

Primarily, yes.

11:52:49

19

Q.

Now, let's turn to the specifics of

11:52:53

20

Bookshare.

21

A.

Mh-hmm.

11:52:56

22

Q.

Since its founding in 2002, who has been

11:52:57

23
24
25

11:52:56

eligible to join Bookshare?
MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

Objection.

11:53:01
Lacks

Vague.

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11:53:05
11:53:06

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
109
THE WITNESS:

1

The primary beneficiary of

11:53:12

2

Bookshare is a person with a qualifying print

11:53:16

3

disability.

11:53:20

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:53:29

5
6
7

Q.

And how is one who has a qualifying

11:53:29

print disability determined?
A.

11:53:33

By a professional who meets the

11:53:39

8

competent authority requirements under U.S. law

11:53:44

9

and regulation as having the professional

11:53:49

credentials to make that assessment.

11:53:54

10
11

Q.

So it's a medical professional?

11:53:56

12

A.

No.

11:54:02

13

Q.

Please, in this context, define

11:54:02

14
15

"competent authority."
A.

11:54:04

I can't quote the precise language, but
Let's see.

11:54:06

16

it includes doctors, optometrists.

17

People with specialized expertise in disabilities.

11:54:24

18

Educational psychologists.

11:54:29

11:54:11

But I'm not giving you the complete list

19
20

that comes from the statutory regulations.

This

21

is publicly available regulatory information.

22

the term of art is "competent authority."

And

11:54:32
11:54:33
11:54:38
11:54:44

23

Q.

And that's defined by statute?

11:54:48

24

A.

That's my understanding.

11:54:50

25

Or the

supporting regulations.

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11:54:51

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
110
1
2

Q.

members when they join Bookshare?
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Is there an initial setup fee charged to

Objection.

11:54:55
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

11:54:57
11:54:58

THE WITNESS:

5

11:54:52

A small proportion of our

11:55:01

6

users do pay an initial setup fee.

11:55:03

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:55:07

8

Q.

And that's $25?

11:55:07

9

A.

In the United States and other wealthy

11:55:11

10
11
12

countries, yes.
Q.

Is there an ongoing membership fee

charged to Bookshare members?
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

11:55:13

Objection.

11:55:18
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

11:55:20
11:55:21

THE WITNESS:

15

11:55:16

For those that are paying

11:55:22

16

for their own membership, yes.

11:55:23

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:55:25

18

Q.

And that's $50 a year?

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

11:55:25
Vague.

In the United States and

11:55:28
11:55:29

21

other wealthy countries.

11:55:29

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:55:32

23
24
25

Q.

Are some members eligible to receive

Bookshare services for free?
A.

Yes.

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1

Q.

Who?

11:55:41

2

A.

Those that have their membership paid

11:55:44

3
4

for by a third party.
Q.

11:55:47

If they're not paying on their own and

11:55:50

5

their fees are not paid by a third party, are

11:55:53

6

there members of Bookshare who can receive

11:55:57

7

Bookshare services for free?

11:56:01

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
Yes.

Vague.

11:56:03

We occasionally give

11:56:12

10

someone who would otherwise have to pay a

11:56:15

11

complimentary membership.

11:56:17

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:56:21

Is that the exception or the rule?

11:56:21

14

MR. KAPLAN:

11:56:24

15

THE WITNESS:

13

Q.

Objection.

Vague.

We sometimes run programs

11:56:26

16

where we say for the next 90 days, you can get a

11:56:27

17

free membership to Bookshare if you qualify.

11:56:33

18

then we hope that you continue to subscribe,

11:56:36

19

so ...

11:56:38

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:56:41

21
22

Q.

Besides fees, from where else does

Bookshare get its funding, if anyplace?

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

And

Foundation grants.

Objection.

11:56:44

Vague.

11:56:48

Government contracts.

Individual donations.

11:56:41

Similar

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112
1

philanthropy.

11:57:04

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:57:05

3

Q.

And part of the Bookshare's funding has

11:57:06

4

come from the Department of Education special

11:57:09

5

education programs?

11:57:11

MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

8

11:57:13
11:57:14

Correct.

A major funder

11:57:15

is the Office of Special Education Programs at the

11:57:16

10

U.S. Department of Education.

11:57:20

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:57:23

9

12
13

Q.

textual reading content to provide to its members?
MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

From where does Bookshare obtain the

Objection.

Vague.

Argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

16

11:57:23
11:57:26
11:57:31
11:57:32

At this time, the majority

11:57:39

17

of the Bookshare collection has been supplied by

11:57:41

18

publishers under voluntary agreements.

11:57:44

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:57:54

20

Q.

Was that always the case?

11:57:55

21

A.

No.

11:57:58

22

Q.

Prior to the publisher supplying their

11:58:01

23

content under voluntary agreements, how did

11:58:05

24

Bookshare obtain textual reading material to

11:58:09

25

provide to its members?

11:58:12

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113
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

testimony.

3

Objection.

foundation.

6

Vague.

Lacks

11:58:15

Volunteer scanning.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

11:58:14

11:58:16

THE WITNESS:

4
5

Argumentative.

Misstates

11:58:19
11:58:38

If you know, how -- what portion of the

11:58:38

7

content available on Bookshare today is

11:58:41

8

copyrighted content?

11:58:45

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

legal conclusion.

Calls for a

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

11

Objection.

Vague.

I would estimate over

11:58:47
11:58:47
11:58:54

12

95 percent is copyrighted content.

11:58:55

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:59:08

14

Q.

Once Bookshare obtains the textual

11:59:08

15

reading content, if it's in printed form, what

11:59:11

16

does Bookshare or its volunteers do with it?

11:59:14

17
18

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

11:59:23
If we receive a book in

11:59:24

20

printed form, we take off its binding, chop the

11:59:27

21

binding off, put it through a high-speed scanner,

11:59:35

22

perform optical character recognition on it, and

11:59:39

23

then someone proofreads it.

11:59:43

19

24
25

THE WITNESS:

11:59:17

It goes through generally an automated
quality control assessment and then gets added to

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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114
1

our collection of books available to our users.

11:59:56

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

11:59:58

3

Q.

4

assessment?

Vague.

11:59:59
12:00:00

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

What's part of that quality control

Objection.

Argumentative.

12:00:02
12:00:04

THE WITNESS:

7

Lacks foundation.

12:00:08

I'm not familiar with all

8

the tests, but if the book is supposed to have 600

12:00:08

9

pages and it has one page, or 10,000, someone's

12:00:15

going to look at it.

12:00:19

10

If it's a religious title, and it is

11

12:00:20

12

full of swear words, it's likely to get additional

12:00:24

13

quality control.

12:00:27

14

book as represented.

15

be greater on completely voluntary copies as

12:00:38

16

opposed to one where we were actually operating

12:00:41

17

the process.

12:00:44

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:00:44

19

Q.

So we're looking for is this
And, you know, that tends to

Would that quality control include a

12:00:30

12:00:44

20

check to make sure none of the pages were scanned

12:00:50

21

upside down?

12:00:53

22
23
24
25

MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

Incomplete
Vague.

I would say that part of

our quality control processes are designed to

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12:01:03
12:01:05

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
115
1

detect missing pages, low-quality character

12:01:08

2

recognition.

12:01:15

3

errors.

12:01:21

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:01:25

5
6
7

Q.

Would upside-down pages be one of those

common errors?
A.

No.

12:01:29

11

MR. KAPLAN:

14

Sorry.

Q.

It's okay.

12:01:33
12:01:33

How about off-centered scanned pages,

where they're not properly centered?
MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

Objection.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

17

12:01:29

12:01:32

BY MR. HUDIS:

15
16

Incomplete

12:01:32

THE WITNESS:

13

Objection.

hypothetical.

10

12

12:01:25
12:01:28

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

So, yes, we're trying to spot common

12:01:34
12:01:37
12:01:40
12:01:41

No.

The most common error

12:01:42

18

is a double feed, where two pages fed at once.

12:01:44

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:01:52

20
21
22
23
24

Q.

What type of file does the Bookshare

scanning process produce?
MR. KAPLAN:
Lacks foundation.

Objection.

12:01:56
Argumentative.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

12:01:52

Generally --

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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1

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:02:05

2

Q.

Go ahead.

12:02:05

3

A.

Generally, a Microsoft Word or RTF

12:02:05

4

format file.

12:02:09

5

Q.

Not Adobe PDF?

12:02:14

6

A.

No.

12:02:20

7

Q.

And "RTF" stands for rich text format?

12:02:21

8

A.

Correct.

12:02:25

9

Q.

As part of the process you just

12:02:41

10

described, the digital scan from paper to

12:02:43

11

electronic, what is the initial file -- what type

12:02:46

12

of initial file is created?

12:02:50

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

15

12:02:53
12:02:55

I believe we acquire image

12:02:58

16

scans as TIFF images.

12:03:01

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:03:05

18

Q.

Again, not PDF?

12:03:05

19

A.

No.

12:03:06

20

Q.

I should know this.

12:03:15

And "TIFF" stands for?

12:03:18

21
22

A.

I believe it's tagged image file format.

12:03:20

23

Q.

Once the TIFF process is created, apart

12:03:24

24

from the quality control that you just described,

12:03:29

25

what other processes, if any, does the file

12:03:32

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117
1

undergo?

12:03:36
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

Unintelligible.

4

Objection.

BY MR. HUDIS:

5
6
7
8
9

Q.

Argumentative.

Vague.
Lacks foundation.

I can ask the question another way if

I don't think I have anything to add to

All right.

12:03:56
12:03:58

the description I gave earlier.
Q.

12:03:41
12:03:56

you'd like, Mr. Fruchterman.
A.

12:03:38

12:04:00
12:04:03

Which was you take the

12:04:05

10

printed material, chop it off from its bindings,

12:04:07

11

digitally scan it, employ the OCR process, have it

12:04:13

12

proofread and a quality control?

12:04:18

13

MR. KAPLAN:

14

Objection.

Misstates

testimony.

12:04:20
THE WITNESS:

15

12:04:20

Yes.

And, of course,

12:04:21

16

proofreading is a quality control step that has a

12:04:22

17

lot of elements to it as well as the final quality

12:04:26

18

control step I described.

12:04:28

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:04:39

20

Q.

For the next series of questions,

12:04:39

21

Mr. Fruchterman, I need your definition of

12:04:42

22

"access."

12:04:44

23

litigated over the course of this legal

12:04:48

24

proceeding.

12:04:52

25

And that has been a term that we have

So I am talking now about a print --

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118
1

print-disabled person having the ability to access

12:04:58

2

content.

12:05:02

3

"access"?

In that respect, how would you define

12:05:07

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

So accessibility -- which

12:05:14
12:05:20

6

is how I think of this term, as opposed to access,

12:05:28

7

per se -- I usually focus on functional tasks that

12:05:32

8

a person would use on a given piece of information

12:05:41

9

or material.

12:05:46

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:05:48

10
11

Q.

And those functional tasks are?

12:05:48

12

A.

Can they get the material?

12:05:52

Can they

13

actually have some form of access to it without

12:05:56

14

regard to is it accessible or not?

12:05:59

15

it?

16

they download it?

Can they access it?

Can they find

So that might be can

12:06:02
12:06:05

17

Q.

So --

12:06:07

18

A.

Can they --

12:06:07

19

Q.

-- that part of it would you define as

12:06:08

20

acquisition, to obtain the content?

21

want your definition without using the term

12:06:13

22

"access."

12:06:15

23
24
25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

I want -- I

Vague.

Argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

12:06:10

12:06:19
12:06:20

"Acquisition" does not

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119
1

seem like the right term.

2

series of processes around obtaining an

12:06:41

3

information object.

12:06:44

4

handed to you physically.

5

you by your teacher with a link.

It could be that

12:06:54

6

you have to search a web search engine to find it.

12:06:58

7

You might go to Amazon and try to buy it.

12:07:02

8

So -- so let's say --

12:07:07

9

There's -- there's a

12:06:29

Depending on -- it could be
It could be assigned to

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:06:50

12:07:13

10

Q.

That's all obtaining the content?

12:07:14

11

A.

Yes.

12:07:18

12

Q.

So that's the first functional task.

12:07:20

After you obtain the content, what's

12:07:21

13
14
15

Let's say obtaining.

Okay.

next?
A.

12:07:24
Can I read the content.

If it's textual

In other words, can I

12:07:25

16

material, especially.

17

actually acquire words in that content.

18

example, if it's a novel, can I read it all the

12:07:36

19

way from the beginning to the end.

12:07:39

12:07:29

For

20

Q.

21

there more?

12:07:44

22

A.

There are more.

12:07:45

23

Q.

Which -- what are they?

12:07:50

24

A.

Accessing -- sorry.

12:07:53

25

Are those all the functional tasks?

12:07:33

Are

Using the structure

of the document to do tasks that other people

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120
1

might do on that document.

For example, you said

2

look at page 5 of a given document.

3

person go to page 5.

4

copy.

Can the

Is page 5 actually in their

12:08:02
12:08:05
12:08:10
12:08:15

5

Q.

That would be a search function?

12:08:17

6

A.

It can be done either through structured

12:08:20

7

markup or it can be done by search.

So, for

8

example, a table of contents, an index.

9

a search function --

It's not

12:08:22
12:08:27
12:08:32

10

Q.

That's a structured markup?

12:08:32

11

A.

That's a structure markup.

12:08:33

And so if someone says, Go to

12:08:34

12
13

Section 7.1, you know, you can flip through and

12:08:36

14

get to Section 7.1, or you can search for 7.1, and

12:08:38

15

perhaps the first mention of 7.1 is maybe table of

12:08:43

16

contents.

12:08:47

17

the phrase "7.1" doesn't appear frequently in the

12:08:51

18

document otherwise.

12:08:55

19

Q.

Maybe the second one is Section 7.1, if

12:08:59

MR. KAPLAN:

20

What is the next functional task?

12:09:01

Objection.

Argumentative.

21

Vague.

12:09:02

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:09:02

23

Q.

If any.

12:09:03

24

A.

I -- in modern use, you might be looking

12:09:10

25

for certain phrases or content.

So, for example,

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121
1

I might want to know pages that mention

12:09:18

2

Constitution and bananas on the same page.

12:09:24

Q.

3
4

All right.

So that would be a Boolean

search?
A.

5

12:09:27
12:09:29

Yes.

So there are searches you could

12:09:29

Those are easier to do on digital content,

12:09:31

6

do.

7

obviously.

8

word spotting as well.

9

skimming that people do.

But, you know, human beings often do
Skimming.

There's

12:09:38
12:09:41

And -- I mean, there are other tasks

10

12:09:34

I choose to focus on those as the

12:09:42

11

that people do.

12

primary ones that encompass what 95 percent or

12:09:51

13

more people would want to do with a given

12:09:55

14

document.

12:09:57

15

Q.

And those functional tasks, just to

12:09:47

12:09:57

16

summarize -- I've been listening very carefully --

12:10:00

17

to obtain the content, to read the content, to use

12:10:03

18

the structure of the document such as by markup or

12:10:06

19

by search, to skim the document and more

12:10:08

20

complicated phrase searches?

12:10:10

21

A.

MR. KAPLAN:

22
23

Yeah.

12:10:12
Objection.

Misstates

testimony.

12:10:13
12:10:14

24

Go ahead.

25

THE WITNESS:

12:10:15
More or less, yeah.

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122
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

12:10:17
All right.

Could Bookshare's

12:10:18

3

members with print disabilities access the content

12:10:26

4

in the TIFF file created by the process you

12:10:28

5

described earlier without having the file undergo

12:10:33

6

an OCR process?

12:10:36

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

hypothetical.

Vague.

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.

12:10:42

9

THE WITNESS:

10

being read it to them.

12:10:46

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:10:54

12

Q.

They could have a human

12:10:39

Without intervention by another human

12:10:45

12:10:56

13

being, could Bookshare's members with print

12:11:00

14

disabilities access the TIFF file created as we

12:11:05

15

discussed -- I'm going to rephrase the question.

12:11:08

16

Without human intervention, could

12:11:15

17

Bookshare's members with print disabilities access

12:11:17

18

the content in the TIFF file without having

12:11:19

19

undergone the OCR process?

12:11:23

20
21
22

MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
I think the answer is no.

12:11:24
12:11:26
12:11:28

23

They need either OCR or a human to access TIFF

12:11:31

24

images if they're completely blind.

12:11:36

25
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123
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Now, what if they are a low-vision

reader?

hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

6

12:11:41
12:11:43

MR. KAPLAN:

4
5

12:11:41

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
Then they could view the

12:11:44
12:11:46
12:11:48

7

TIFF image magnified or otherwise visually

12:11:52

8

processed and read the document.

12:11:56

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:11:58

10

Q.

What do you mean by "visually

11

processed"?

12:11:59

12

A.

12:12:03

An example -- one obvious example is

13

making it bigger.

14

contrast so that instead of being black text on a

12:12:09

15

white background, being white text on black

12:12:12

16

background.

12:12:15

17

that people with low vision benefit from other

12:12:18

18

than those two.

12:12:22

19

Q.

Another one is reversing the

12:11:59

There are many other visual things

Those are the two most common.

With the current state of technology as

12:12:06

12:12:26

20

you know it, how accurate is the OCR process in

12:12:27

21

recognizing words on a printed page?

12:12:32

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

24
25

Objection.

Vague.

It's quite good.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Is there a known error recognition rate?

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12:12:38
12:12:39
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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124
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

12:12:42

It varies by content type.

12:12:48

3

So a text document, like my resume --

12:12:54

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:12:59

5

Q.

Sure.

6

A.

-- I would -- yeah, I would expect

7

Let's look at Exhibit 49.

12:12:59
12:13:00

modern OCR to do that perfectly.

12:13:02

8

Q.

With no error recognition --

12:13:05

9

A.

With no errors.

Or maybe one or two

12:13:07

10

just -- I should double-check, but I don't see

12:13:10

11

any.

12:13:13

12

not going to find it.

13

mean, this is --

That's -- that's a very -- of course, I'm
There we go.

Yeah.

I

12:13:16
12:13:19

14

Q.

That's straight text?

12:13:20

15

A.

Yeah.

12:13:21

Well, the first page I would say

16

it would recognize perfectly.

The second page, it

17

might have problems with some of the underlines.

12:13:23
12:13:27

18

Q.

Right.

12:13:29

19

A.

And --

12:13:30

20

Q.

What about if it's in italics?

12:13:31

21

A.

I think it's the combination of italics

12:13:33

22

and underlines that might give it the problem.

I

23

think it should still do quite well, but I would

12:13:38

24

expect there's a possibility of an error -- of

12:13:43

25

error showing up with italics.

12:13:44

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
125
So a novel, very few errors.

1

A -- well,

12:13:46

2

a child's picture book that had no words in it

12:13:52

3

would be hard for a blind person to use, as

12:13:56

4

another example.

So it just -- it varies by the

12:13:59

5

content.

But modern OCR on straight text should

12:14:01

6

do quite well.

7
8

Q.

12:14:05

And the events in question in this

litigation occurred between 2012 and 2014.
Would your answer still be the same

9

12:14:06
12:14:07
12:14:11

10

about the error recognition rate of OCR in that

12:14:13

11

time period?

12:14:17

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

hypothetical.

THE WITNESS:

14
15
16

Vague.

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
Yes.

12:14:20
12:14:22

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

12:14:18

12:14:22

After the scanning and OCR processes and

12:14:25

17

the quality control, how does Bookshare decide

12:14:29

18

whether a book should be made available on its web

12:14:32

19

site?

12:14:35
MR. KAPLAN:

20
21

Unintelligible.

22

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

Vague.

hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

23

Incomplete

12:14:35
12:14:37
12:14:44

We wouldn't engage in that

12:14:47

24

process if we weren't planning on making it

12:14:49

25

available.

12:14:52

It would be a waste of resources.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
126
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Is there a validation process that the

scanned book goes through before -MR. KAPLAN:

4
5

12:14:54

12:14:56

Object.

12:14:59

BY MR. HUDIS:

6

Q.

7

12:14:59

web site?

9

-- before it is uploaded to Bookshare's

foundation.

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

Incomplete hypothetical.

THE WITNESS:

10

12:14:59
12:15:01

MR. KAPLAN:

8

12:14:54

12:15:03
12:15:05

I don't know what you mean

12:15:10

11

by "validation" beyond the quality control stuff

12:15:11

12

that we've already discussed.

12:15:13

Is there some other thing that --

13
14
15

12:15:15

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

12:15:16

I saw that in some of the materials

12:15:16

16

discussing Bookshare, that there was a validation

12:15:18

17

process.

12:15:20

18

A.

If a work is a play, we won't scan it.

12:15:34

19

Q.

Why?

12:15:38

20

A.

Because the copyright exception says it

12:15:40

21

only applies to nondramatic literary works.

22

there is a process to not scan books that aren't

12:15:47

23

covered by the copyright exception.

12:15:51

24
25

Q.

So

So, for example, if a student with print

disabilities needs to access a modern play that's

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
127
1

still within copyright, Bookshare couldn't help

12:16:19

2

them?

12:16:21
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

hypothetical.

5

Objection.

Incomplete

Calls for a legal conclusion.

Vague.

12:16:23
12:16:25

THE WITNESS:

6

12:16:22

Bookshare couldn't help

12:16:27

7

them by scanning a printed version of that play,

12:16:28

8

no.

12:16:33

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:16:33

10

Q.

Why is Bookshare permitted to digitally

12:16:59

11

copy and distribute copyrighted materials to the

12:17:02

12

print-disabled?

12:17:06

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

legal conclusion.

15

Argumentative.

Objection.

Calls for a

Incomplete hypothetical.

12:17:08

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

12:17:07

12:17:13
Because we avail ourselves

12:17:25

17

of copyright exceptions and license agreements and

12:17:27

18

the public domain.

12:17:38

19

are the three ways that we are permitted.

12:17:42

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:17:54

16

Those

And when you say "copyright exceptions,"

12:17:54

22

are you familiar with the 1996 Chafee Amendment to

12:17:56

23

the U.S. Copyright Act?

12:18:01

21

Q.

And I think that's it.

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
128
1

BY MR. HUDIS:

2

Q.

3

12:18:05

What's your understanding of the Chafee

Amendment?

12:18:05
12:18:07

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Chafee is C-H-A-F-E-E.

12:18:10
I

12:18:13

6

don't have all of the provisions of Chafee

12:18:23

7

memorized, but it allows an authorized entity,

12:18:26

8

defined in the statute, to make copies of

12:18:30

9

copyrighted works available to people with

12:18:36

10

qualifying disabilities, print disabilities.

12:18:39

11

There's more details, but those are, I'd say, the

12:18:45

12

primary points.

12:18:48

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:18:49

14

Q.

And -MR. KAPLAN:

15

12:18:50
Just to be clear, you're

12:18:51

16

not seeking his legal opinion on this or legal

12:18:52

17

advice regarding this, correct?

12:18:54

18

MR. HUDIS:

I am not.

I am seeking the

12:18:56

19

witness's understanding vis-a-vis his operation of

12:18:58

20

Bookshare.

12:19:02

21

Q.

So the three methods you just described

12:19:05

22

permitting Bookshare to digitally copy and

12:19:11

23

distribute materials on its web site is either,

12:19:14

24

one, a copyright exception; two, a license

12:19:17

25

agreement; and, three, a public domain; is that

12:19:20

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129
1
2
3
4
5

correct?
A.

Yes, that's my understanding as someone

who operates Bookshare.
Q.

And the copyright exception, we are now

MR. KAPLAN:

12:19:25
12:19:26

talking about the Chafee Amendment?

6
7

12:19:21

Objection.

Argumentative.

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:19:29
12:19:32
12:19:35
12:19:37

8

Q.

9

exception"?

12:19:39

A.

12:19:44

10

What did you mean by "copyright

I'm not a lawyer, but it's my

12:19:37

11

understanding that there are multiple copyright

12:19:48

12

exceptions that our work may be covered by.

12:19:50

13

Q.

14

Amendment.

15

A.

Okay.

12:20:00

16

Q.

So -- and that's what -- that's one of

12:20:00

17

All right.

MR. KAPLAN:
Misstates testimony.

Objection.

Vague.

Argumentative.

THE WITNESS:

20

12:19:56
12:19:57

the three rubrics under which Bookshare operates?

18
19

Well, let's concentrate on the Chafee

I agree that we actively

12:20:03
12:20:10
12:20:11
12:20:14

21

try to utilize the Chafee Amendment in our

12:20:16

22

operations.

12:20:20

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:20:20

24
25

Q.

All right.

And Bookshare, under the

Chafee Amendment, is an authorized entity?

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
130
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

legal conclusion.

Objection.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

3

Calls for a

12:20:27
12:20:28

We believe that we qualify

12:20:29

4

as an authorized entity.

12:20:30

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:20:31

6

Q.

And that you provide the content on

12:20:32

7

Bookshare's web site to people with qualifying

12:20:35

8

disabilities?

12:20:38

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

legal conclusion.

12
13

Calls for a

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

11

Objection.

12:20:39

Yes.

12:20:41

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

12:20:39

12:20:41

When you founded Bookshare, did you

12:20:44

14

inform the book publishers of your organization's

12:20:47

15

intentions?

12:20:50

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

18
19

Objection.

Really vague.

Yes.

12:20:55

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

12:20:52

12:20:56
All right.

20

the publishers react?

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

At that time, how did

12:20:56
12:21:04

Objection.

Really vague.

This is another

12:21:07
12:21:11

23

confidential segment.

12:21:11

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:21:15

25

Q.

Well, the whole thing is confidential.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
131
A.

1

Okay.

But -- I know.

But I know that

12:21:17

2

we then go back and re-mark it as confidential.

12:21:17

3

So I figured I'd just get it right out there right

12:21:20

4

now.

12:21:23

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

appreciate that, Jim.
THE WITNESS:

7

That's helpful for me.

I

12:21:23
12:21:25

So I would say that

12:21:26

8

different segments of the publishing industry

12:21:26

9

reacted differently.

12:21:29

The trade publishers were

10

pretty open to it.

11

helping people with disabilities.

12

publishers, especially those in higher ed, were

12:21:44

13

much more concerned about Bookshare.

12:21:50

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:21:57

15
16

Q.

They had a tradition of
The educational

Any other groups that reacted to your

initial concept of Bookshare?
MR. KAPLAN:

17
18

vague.

19

Still really

speculation.
THE WITNESS:

12:21:38

12:21:57
12:22:00

Objection.

Lack of foundation.

12:21:35

Calls for

12:22:04
12:22:05
12:22:07

I'm -- I'm describing my

12:22:08

21

interaction with the main publishing industry --

12:22:10

22

publisher association which, in my mind,

12:22:12

23

represents the interests of those stakeholders.

12:22:15

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:22:17

20

25

Q.

All right.

So you have --

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
132
1

A.

So that was -- my interaction before the

12:22:18

2

launch of Bookshare with the publishing industry

12:22:20

3

was primarily through that group.

12:22:23

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:22:24

5
6

Q.

And it was the trade and higher

educational publishers?

12:22:26

It was the Association of American

12:22:26

8

Publishers, which has divisions of different

12:22:28

9

segments of the publishing industry of which

12:22:32

10

trade, higher education, K-12, scientific, I

12:22:35

11

think -- there's a lot of different segments, but

12:22:42

12

the ones that were most noteworthy in their

12:22:44

13

reaction were the postsecondary publishers as

12:22:47

14

being less excited and the trade publishers being

12:22:50

15

more "eh" -- sorry, I guess that's not a technical

12:22:53

16

term -- more "sounds reasonable."

12:22:57

7

17
18

A.

12:22:24

Q.

What concerns did the secondary

educational publishers relay to you?

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

The primary concern

12:23:00
12:23:02
12:23:07
12:23:09

21

expressed by the postsecondary publishers were

12:23:10

22

that disabled students who obtained a copy of a

12:23:20

23

textbook from Bookshare might share that copy with

12:23:23

24

other nonqualifying students in an unauthorized

12:23:28

25

manner.

12:23:33

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
133
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

5

What did you do to allay their concerns?

12:23:40

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

12:23:39

12:23:42

Objection.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

12:23:43

If anything.

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

12:23:43
Vague.

12:23:44

We presented our

12:23:49

8

seven-point digital rights management plan to them

12:23:49

9

as the overarching structure of our plans to meet

12:23:59

10

our obligations under the Chafee Amendment.

12:24:05

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:24:13

12
13

Q.

scanned for Bookshare stored?
MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

Where are the digital files of the books

Objection.

12:24:22
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

16

12:24:20

12:24:24
12:24:26

At present, in Amazon

12:24:29

17

cloud services.

12:24:34

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:24:35

19

Q.

21

12:24:35

MR. KAPLAN:

20

How about back then, at the founding?

12:24:38

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

22

12:24:40
We operated our own

12:24:41

23

servers.

12:24:42

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:24:43

25

Q.

And were they secure?

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
134
1

A.

Yes.

12:24:46

2

Q.

So they needed user name and password

12:24:47

3

protection?
MR. KAPLAN:

4
5

12:24:49
Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

12:24:50
12:24:53

6

THE WITNESS:

7

yes, user name and password, yes.

12:24:59

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:25:03

9

Q.

All right.

In addition to other.

So,

And the content now that is

12:24:56

12:25:03

10

available on Amazon cloud, that is also secured

12:25:05

11

with user name and password protection?

12:25:10

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

Argumentative.

Vague.

12:25:12
12:25:14

THE WITNESS:

14
15

Objection.

At least that.

12:25:16

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:25:17

16

Q.

And more?

12:25:18

17

A.

And more.

12:25:18

18

Q.

All right.

Do the digital files of the

12:25:19

19

books made available on the Bookshare site have

12:25:22

20

copyright and limited access notices on them?

12:25:25

MR. KAPLAN:

21
22

foundation.

23

Objection.

Vague.

12:25:31

And

12:25:32

compound.

24

Calls for a legal conclusion.

Lacks

12:25:45
THE WITNESS:

Yeah.

25
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135
1

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:25:46

2

Q.

All right.

3

A.

Okay.

We'll do it one at a time.

When users get a copyrighted work

12:25:46
12:25:48

4

from Bookshare, it includes copyright and limited

12:25:52

5

access notices, yes.

12:26:00

Are members of Bookshare obligated to

12:26:04

7

sign an agreement to abide by copy -- copyright

12:26:07

8

laws when accessing materials made available on

12:26:11

9

Bookshare's web site?

12:26:14

10

MR. KAPLAN:

6

Q.

Objection.

11

foundation.

12

Vague.

Lacks

Calls for a legal conclusion.

Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

13

12:26:18
12:26:19
12:26:29

If a copyrighted work is

12:26:32

14

downloaded from Bookshare, there needs to have

12:26:34

15

been a responsible party signing an agreement with

12:26:40

16

respect to that work.

12:26:46

17

guardian has to sign an agreement on behalf of a

12:26:51

18

minor.

12:26:56

19

can sign on behalf of the students that they serve

12:26:59

20

books to.

12:27:02

21

who has -- with the ability to make an agreement

12:27:05

22

who has taken on that obligation.

12:27:12

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:27:15

24
25

Q.

For example, a parent or

A teacher or educator or school district

But there always needs to be someone

Whether it is the person who is

print-disabled him or herself or the responsible

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
136
1

party on their behalf?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

6

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

Q.

12:27:23
12:27:24

Yes.

12:27:27

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:27:28

What is Bookshare's fingerprint system?

12:27:30

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

Objection.

Incomplete hypothetical.

4
5

12:27:21

12:27:34

Lacks foundation.

Argumentative.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

9

Objection.

12:27:35

We incorporate

12:27:38

10

fingerprints into copyrighted works, including the

12:27:40

11

name of the user or could be the name of the

12:27:46

12

school district or teacher that downloads the

12:27:51

13

work, and we also hide that identity in the work

12:27:54

14

itself in a way that's not easily seen by

12:27:58

15

inspection.

12:28:03

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:28:04

17
18

Q.

What is the purpose for the fingerprint

system?

12:28:04
12:28:06

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

If unauthorized copies

12:28:08
12:28:12

21

appear, say, online, that we can trace back the

12:28:13

22

source user that downloaded that work originally

12:28:20

23

from Bookshare.

12:28:28

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:28:30

25

Q.

And if you can trace them, you tell

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
137
1

them, You can't do that again or you're no longer

12:28:33

2

going to be a member of Bookshare; is that

12:28:35

3

correct?

12:28:37
MR. KAPLAN:

4
5

hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

6

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
We have a disciplinary

12:28:38
12:28:40
12:28:42

7

process associated with that discovery, yes.

12:28:44

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:28:47

9

Q.

And what is that disciplinary process?

12:28:47

10

A.

Typically, we reach out and say, We

12:28:51

11

found a copyrighted work online that came from

12:28:54

12

you, and do you know how it happened to get out

12:28:57

13

there?

12:29:01

And most frequently, it's inadvertent.

14

The majority of the works have the plain

12:29:11

15

text name of the person who downloaded the book in

12:29:13

16

the file still when we find it.

12:29:16

17

be someone who doesn't understand how the Internet

12:29:21

18

works and uploaded a textbook to the school web

12:29:24

19

site so that their kid could get it easily, their

12:29:28

20

student, but didn't realize that Google could also

12:29:30

21

index that site.

12:29:33

22

So that tends to

If a person seems to have tried to cover

12:29:34

23

their tracks or delete the fingerprint or delete

12:29:37

24

things or doesn't have a very good answer on how

12:29:40

25

the work appeared, we discontinue services to that

12:29:42

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
138
1

individual.

And we check in with the industry

2

association occasionally about that.

3

large scale -- I think one large scale thing,

12:29:55

4

where we had 50 works by a single publisher, we

12:29:57

5

contacted the publisher.

12:30:00

And some

12:29:50

6

Q.

7

Bookshare?

8

A.

Bookshare, yes.

12:30:03

9

Q.

Once Bookshare makes --

12:30:09

10

MR. KAPLAN:

12:30:11

11

interchangeably with "Benetech"?

12:30:01
12:30:02

MR. HUDIS:

12
13

When you say "we," you're talking about

12:29:46

So are you saying that

12:30:11

It's the Bookshare project

of Benetech as the witness testified.
THE WITNESS:

12:30:15

So you want me to

12:30:21

15

be clear between Benetech, the organization, and

12:30:22

16

Bookshare the project?

12:30:25

14

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18
19
20
21

Okay.

12:30:13

Yeah.

The actor is --

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

12:30:27

Who is the actor in this context when

you say "we"?
A.

12:30:26

12:30:28
12:30:30

Well, Benetech employees.

Benetech

I've not -- I've not --

12:30:31

22

operates the project.

23

I've not been distinguishing between Bookshare and

12:30:34

24

Benetech.

12:30:36

25

the same, even though --

I've just been treating them sort of

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
139
1

Q.

So the actors in this context, to make

12:30:41

2

Counsel's question very clear, these are Benetech

12:30:43

3

employees acting under the auspices of the

12:30:47

4

Bookshare project?

12:30:50

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

All right.

12:30:51
Once Bookshare makes textual

12:30:52

7

reading material available to its members in

12:30:55

8

digital format, how do its members access the

12:30:58

9

material?

12:31:01
MR. KAPLAN:

10

Objection.

11

speculation.

Lacks foundation.

12

Calls for

Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

13

Vague.

12:31:03
12:31:04
12:31:08

Generally, they would use

12:31:11

14

some form of assistive technology to access that

12:31:12

15

material.

12:31:18

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:31:23

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

Q.

So let's take that assistive technology

one at a time.

12:31:25

Could the person access the material
directly on Bookshare's web site?
MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

12:31:24

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

12:31:30
12:31:34

Incomplete

12:31:39

Vague.

12:31:40

Using the web

12:31:42

24

reader, a person could access the content either

12:31:44

25

using separate assistive technology running on top

12:31:49

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140
1

of their web browser or intrinsic technology built

12:31:53

2

into the combination of our web site and the web

12:31:57

3

browser.

12:32:00

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:32:01

5

Q.

7

10
11
12

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

Lacks foundation.
Yes, the user can download

12:32:08
12:32:10

the file.

12:32:12

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:32:12

Q.

Could the user access the content using

a Braille reader?
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

12:32:07

Objection.

Incomplete hypothetical.

8
9

12:32:02

MR. KAPLAN:

6

Could the user download the file?

hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

15

12:32:12
12:32:15

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
A blind person could

12:32:17
12:32:19
12:32:21

16

transfer the file into a Braille note taker or, in

12:32:23

17

some cases, download the file directly from their

12:32:27

18

Braille note taker into its memory and read it in

12:32:31

19

Braille.

12:32:34

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:32:34

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

Could the user access the content

through an MP3 player?
MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

12:32:35
12:32:37

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
Yes.

If they downloaded

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
141
1

the work in an MP3 format from the Bookshare web

12:32:46

2

site, they could then transfer that into an MP3

12:32:52

3

player and listen to it.

12:32:56

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:32:57

5

Q.

Could the user access the content

6

through a smartphone?

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

hypothetical.

12:32:59
Objection.

Vague.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

9

12:32:57

Yes.

There's quite a

12:33:01
12:33:02
12:33:03

10

number of ways that a user can use a smartphone to

12:33:04

11

access the content.

12:33:07

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:33:08

13

Q.

Using assisted -- assistive technology?

12:33:09

14

A.

Yes.

12:33:11

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16
17
18

Vague.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

Could -- could the user

MR. KAPLAN:
hypothetical.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

21

12:33:12
12:33:13

access the content through a digital tablet?

19
20

Objection.

Objection.

Incomplete

Lacks foundation.
In similar ways to

12:33:15
12:33:16
12:33:19
12:33:22
12:33:23

22

smartphone, yes.

12:33:24

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:33:25

24
25

Q.

And could the user access that content

through a talking book?

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12:33:26
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
142
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

hypothetical.

Vague.

Objection.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

3

Incomplete

Much of what we've been

12:33:29
12:33:31
12:33:34

4

described would be commonly described as a talking

12:33:35

5

book, so I'm not sure what a separate talking book

12:33:38

6

might be.

12:33:40

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

12:33:41

8
9
10

Q.

It's usually a combination of hardware

12:33:41

and software that is not a digital tablet, not a

12:33:44

smartphone, not an MP3 player.

12:33:48

You used -- one example was a Braille

11
12

reader or a Braille note taker.

13

about a talking book being a technology other than

12:33:59

14

the other -- others that I've listed in this

12:34:01

15

series of questions.

12:34:03

16

A.

18

Okay.
MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

12:33:56

12:34:04
Objection.

Incomplete hypothetical.

19

So I'm talking

12:33:51

Vague.

12:34:05

Lacks foundation.

12:34:06

There are dedicated

12:34:09

20

eBook readers that have their own text-to-speech

12:34:11

21

that would be able to make a -- one of our works

12:34:17

22

talk, in addition to the other ways we've

12:34:20

23

discussed.

12:34:22

24
25

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel, I think we should

take a break here.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
143
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

3

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

4

I -- I consent.
All right.

12:34:27
12:34:28

Going off the record

at 12:34.

12:34:30
12:34:31

5

(Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)

01:48:33

6

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 55 was

01:48:33

7

marked for identification.)

01:48:33

AFTERNOON SESSION

8

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

9

12:34:40

Back on the record at

01:08:34

10

1:08.

01:08:36

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:08:36

12

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I have marked a

13

document as Exhibit 55.

14

just review the pages.

15
16
17
18

A.

Please take a moment to

Looks like a lot of screen shots from

Okay.

01:09:05
01:09:09

our web site.
Q.

01:09:03

01:09:12
01:09:16

And when you say "our web site,"

that's Bookshare's web site?

01:09:17
01:09:18

19

A.

The Bookshare project web site.

01:09:20

20

Q.

And do you have any reason to doubt the

01:09:23

21
22
23

authenticity of those pages on Exhibit 55?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Calls for a

legal conclusion.

24

THE WITNESS:

25

MR. HUDIS:

01:09:25
01:09:28
01:09:29

Not on a quick inspection.
Okay.

Counsel can we

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
144
1

stipulate that Exhibit 55 comprises a business

01:09:33

2

record of Beneficent Technology, Inc.?

01:09:36

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Let me get back to you on

that.

01:09:41

5

MR. HUDIS:

6

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

7

01:09:40

Okay.

01:09:41
Mr. Kaplan, your mike

is not --

01:09:45
01:09:47

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

Let me get back to you about that.

01:09:52

MR. HUDIS:

01:09:58

10

Oh, apologies.

Okay.

I'll tell you what,

01:09:50

11

I'll ask Mr. Fruchterman questions about the

01:10:00

12

exhibit, and then when I'm done with the exhibit,

01:10:02

13

then I can address it then.

01:10:04

14

ask him the foundation questions.

If you can't, I'll

So, Mr. Fruchterman --

01:10:07

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Yes.

01:10:12

17

Q.

-- so I've numbered the pages so that we

01:10:12

18

can get a clear transcript.

19

the lower right-hand corner.

20

A.

Okay.

21

Q.

All right.

You'll see them in

22

01:10:10

01:10:15
01:10:18
01:10:21

So the page 1 of Exhibit 55,

that's the help page of the Bookshare web site?

01:10:21
01:10:24

23

A.

Looks like it.

01:10:30

24

Q.

Okay.

01:10:30

25

Exhibit 55.

Let's turn to page 2 of

I want to read for you -- read to you

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
145
1

a few passages.
"Bookshare is the world's

2

01:10:38
01:10:40

3

largest accessible online library

01:10:41

4

for people with print

01:10:43

5

disabilities."

01:10:44

You would agree with that?

6

01:10:45

7

A.

Yes.

01:10:47

8

Q.

And then in the next paragraph it says:

01:10:48

"Bookshare is a global

9

01:10:50

10

literacy initiative of Benetech, a

01:10:51

11

leading Silicon Valley based

01:10:55

12

nonprofit technology company

01:10:57

13

founded by Jim Fruchterman."

01:10:59

14

You would agree with that?

01:11:00

15

A.

Yes.

01:11:03

16

Q.

And then dropping down two paragraphs,

01:11:03

17
18

it says:

01:11:06
"Bookshare operates in the

01:11:07

19

U.S. under a copyright exemption,

01:11:09

20

the Chafee Amendment, which grants

01:11:11

21

nonprofit organizations the

01:11:13

22

ability to make books available to

01:11:15

23

people with print disabilities

01:11:17

24

without publisher permission."

01:11:19

25

You'd agree with that?

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01:11:21

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
146
1
2
3

A.

I agree that that's a layman's

description of what we do, yes.
Q.

01:11:28

Let's turn to page 3 of Exhibit 55.

01:11:30

In the third paragraph it says:

4

01:11:38

"Our books are accessible" --

5

01:11:38

There's that word "accessible" again.

6
7

A.

8

01:11:40

Mh-hmm.

01:11:43

Q.

-- "which means you can read
our books many different ways."

9

Now, next to the picture of the children

10
11

01:11:25

in the classroom, it says:

books?"

13

01:11:45
01:11:49
01:11:52

"How can you read Bookshare

12

01:11:43

01:11:53
01:11:56

Do you see that?

14

01:11:57

15

A.

Mh-hmm.

01:11:58

16

Q.

Is that the ways that the books on

01:11:58

17

Bookshare's web site are accessible?

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

That are -- that are some

01:12:02
01:12:05
01:12:09

20

of the ways, yes.

01:12:10

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:12:10

22

Q.

23

"And more."
What does "and more" mean in this

24
25

Now, at the bottom of that list it says,

context?

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01:12:11
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
147
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

Lacks

01:12:17

foundation.

01:12:18

THE WITNESS:

3
4

Objection.

Okay.

I will pause and

try to divine what that might be, so ...

01:12:27

There are at least 40 assistive

5

01:12:25

01:13:07

6

technology products that support access to

01:13:10

7

Bookshare as well as other production means that

01:13:12

8

you could imagine.

01:13:15

9

other accessible media that are created that don't

01:13:22

10

precisely align with the list here.

01:13:26

11

tactile graphics is not mentioned here, and yet we

01:13:31

12

work on tactile graphics.

01:13:34

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:13:36

So I'm sure that there are

For example,

14

Q.

Like Braille?

15

A.

Tactile graphics are not Braille.

01:13:36
But

01:13:37

16

let's say the Pythagorean theorem, you would be

01:13:40

17

able to feel a triangle.

01:13:44

18

but would be tactile.

It wouldn't be Braille,

You might produce a book that has print

19

But I would say that, you

01:13:48
01:13:49

20

and Braille on it.

21

know, these descriptions describe the majority of

01:13:54

22

ways that people interact with Bookshare books.

01:13:57

01:13:51

23

Q.

Who are print-disabled?

01:14:02

24

A.

Correct.

01:14:04

25

Q.

Let's turn to page 4 of Exhibit 55.

01:14:06

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148
Under the title "Sign-up and Read," it

1
2

says:

01:14:12
01:14:15

"Get started with Bookshare.

3

01:14:16

4

In this section you will sign up

01:14:17

5

and learn how to read your first

01:14:19

6

book."

01:14:20

7

A.

Mh-hmm.

01:14:21

8

Q.

So my question is from this passage,

01:14:28

does a Bookshare user have to sign up as a member

01:14:30

10

before accessing the materials made available on

01:14:34

11

the Bookshare site?

01:14:36

9

12

A.

No.

01:14:39

13

Q.

In what instance would a user not sign

01:14:42

14

up as a member before accessing the materials on

01:14:46

15

Bookshare's site?

01:14:49

16

A.

If they wanted to access public domain

01:14:50

17

or creative commons licensed works, there is no

01:14:53

18

requirement that they sign up.

01:14:55

19
20
21

Q.

So the only sign-up is if it's

01:14:58

copyrighted material?
A.

01:15:01

That would be the primary reason you

01:15:02

22

would sign up, would be to access copyrighted

01:15:04

23

material.

01:15:07

24

Q.

25

Let's turn to page 5 of Exhibit 55.

It

says:

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149
1

"Learn who can join.

2

order for you to become a

01:15:17

3

Bookshare member, an expert must

01:15:18

4

confirm that you have a print

01:15:20

5

disability that prevents you from

01:15:22

6

reading traditional print

01:15:24

7

materials."

01:15:25

I'm skipping the rest of that paragraph

8
9

In

and going to the second paragraph.
"People with hearing loss,

10

01:15:14

01:15:29
01:15:31
01:15:33

11

autism, attention deficit

01:15:34

12

hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or

01:15:37

13

emotion or intellectual

01:15:41

14

disabilities or whose first

01:15:43

15

language is not English generally

01:15:44

16

do not qualify based upon those

01:15:46

17

criteria unless they have a

01:15:47

18

qualifying vision, physical or

01:15:49

19

learning disability."

01:15:51

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

MR. HUDIS:

You missed an "also."
Thank you.

"Unless they also have a

22

01:15:54
01:15:55
01:15:58

23

qualifying, vision or learning

01:15:59

24

disability."

01:16:01

25

Q.

Are these qualifications for one to

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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150
1

become a Bookshare member?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3
4

Objection.

01:16:04
Vague.

01:16:06

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:16:08
I'll ask it a different way.

01:16:08

To be a Bookshare member, do you have to

5

All right.

01:16:11

6

have a qualifying vision, physical or learning

01:16:13

7

disability?

01:16:17

8

A.

Yes.

01:16:20

9

Q.

Let's turn to page 6 of Exhibit 55.

And

01:16:22

10

there are some definitions and examples of people

01:16:32

11

who are low-vision blindness, physical

01:16:36

12

disabilities and learning disabilities.

13

says here at the top:

So it

"A person who is blind or who

14

01:16:39
01:16:40
01:16:42

15

has low vision and who is unable

01:16:44

16

to read standard print qualifies

01:16:47

17

for Bookshare."

01:16:49

You agree with that?

18

01:16:50

19

A.

Yes.

01:16:55

20

Q.

Next:

01:16:57

21

"A person with a physical

01:16:57

22

disability who is unable to read

01:16:59

23

standard print qualifies for

01:17:02

24

Bookshare."

01:17:04

25

Do you agree with that?

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
151
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

you're omitting the full text of that sentence?
MR. HUDIS:

3
4

Counsel, is there a reason

Yeah.

Because I don't want

to clutter -- I can read the whole text.
THE WITNESS:

5

Yeah.

Subject to the

01:17:06
01:17:08
01:17:11
01:17:12
01:17:14

6

qualification in that sentence, yes.

01:17:15

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:17:17

8
9

Q.

Okay.

All right.

So I'll read the

whole thing.

01:17:18
"A person with a physical

10

01:17:17

01:17:19

11

disability who is unable to read

01:17:21

12

standard print qualifies for

01:17:23

13

Bookshare as long as a competent

01:17:24

14

authority confirms that the

01:17:28

15

physical disability significantly

01:17:29

16

interferes with reading."

01:17:30

17

Do you agree with that?

01:17:32
01:17:33

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

All right.

Next on that page:

01:17:34

20

"A person with a learning

01:17:36

21

disability qualifies for Bookshare

01:17:39

22

as long as a competent authority

01:17:40

23

confirms that the learning

01:17:42

24

disability significantly

01:17:44

25

interferes with reading."

01:17:45

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152
Do you agree with that?

1

01:17:47
01:17:48

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

All right.

Does each one of these print

01:17:49

4

disabilities have to be confirmed by a competent

01:17:57

5

authority?

01:17:59
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

10

Vague.

01:18:04

Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

8
9

Objection.

01:18:06
Not in general.

But for

01:18:07

Bookshare membership, yes.

01:18:10

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:18:15

Does this page, page 6 of Exhibit 55,

01:18:15

12

identify the types of competent authorities who

01:18:19

13

may confirm the vision and disabilities of

01:18:23

14

potential Bookshare members?

01:18:25

11

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Objection.

Vague.

Misstates the document.
THE WITNESS:

17

01:18:28
01:18:31

This is not a

18

comprehensive list.

19

examples of people who are competent authorities.

01:18:35

20

I can imagine that there are other professional

01:18:39

21

credentials that would also be recognized by us as

01:18:42

22

a competent authority.

01:18:45

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:18:45

24
25

Q.

It's a representative list of

01:18:32

So this is a representative list of

competent authorities?

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153
1

A.

Yeah.

That's why it says "examples of."

2

Q.

Let's turn to page 7 of Exhibit 55.
"If you are legally blind,

3

01:18:48
01:18:50
01:18:57

4

you qualify.

5

don't meet the legal blindness

01:19:02

6

standard, a functional vision

01:19:04

7

assessment that indicates a

01:19:06

8

significant problem accessing text

01:19:08

9

is also acceptable."

01:19:11

Does this statement accurately summarize

10
11
12

In addition, if you

who may become a Bookshare member?
A.

MR. KAPLAN:

14

THE WITNESS:

01:19:13
01:19:15

Not --

13

01:18:59

01:19:20
Objection.

Vague.

Not generally.

But in the

01:19:20
01:19:21

15

area of a person who has a vision impairment who

01:19:22

16

wants to become a Bookshare member, they would

01:19:25

17

either have to be completely blind, legally blind

01:19:27

18

or have a functional vision problem.

01:19:30

19

people could qualify that don't have any of those

01:19:32

20

issues.

01:19:35

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:19:35

And let's explore who those people are.

01:19:35

23

Turn to page 8 of Exhibit 55.

01:19:38

24

"If you cannot pick up a

01:19:42

25

book, turn pages, maintain visual

01:19:44

22

Q.

But other

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154
1

focus on a book or do not have the

01:19:47

2

physical stamina to work with

01:19:48

3

printed material, you most likely

01:19:50

4

qualify for Bookshare membership."

01:19:52

Does this statement also accurately

5
6

summarize who may become a Bookshare member?

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Objection.

Vague.

Yes, as phrased here.

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:19:55
01:19:57
01:20:02
01:20:03
01:20:05

10

Q.

Let's turn to page 9 of Exhibit 55.

01:20:08

11

A.

Mh-hmm.

01:20:11

12

Under "So who doesn't qualify,"

it says:

01:20:14

13

"The 98 percent of the

01:20:14

14

population who can pick up a book

01:20:16

15

and read it or could if they

01:20:18

16

learned to read."

01:20:21

17

Q.

I'm focusing on just this statement.

01:20:24

18

Does this page accurately summarize who can be --

01:20:26

19

who cannot become a Bookshare member?

01:20:29

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

You're asking about the entire page?

01:20:36

22

THE WITNESS:

01:20:39

23

Objection.

Vague.

Or just that one sentence?

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:20:36

01:20:41

24

Q.

Just that one sentence.

01:20:41

25

A.

That one sentence is an informal way of

01:20:43

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155
1

stating this.

The number could be 97 percent.

2

And -- but, yeah, it's designed to get -- to have

01:20:58

3

most people realize that you actually have to have

01:21:02

4

a real disability that affects reading before you

01:21:05

5

can qualify for Bookshare to access copyrighted

01:21:07

6

material.

01:21:09

7

Q.

Let's turn to page 10 of Exhibit 55.

01:20:49

01:21:11

8

I'm focusing on the second sentence of that

01:21:24

9

paragraph.

01:21:26
"If you are certifying

10

01:21:27

11

someone who has a physically based

01:21:29

12

disability (including dyslexia)

01:21:31

13

that makes it difficult to read

01:21:35

14

standard print effectively, he or

01:21:36

15

she should meet the technical

01:21:40

16

requirements and you should be

01:21:42

17

able to confirm this in writing if

01:21:43

18

your professional expertise is

01:21:45

19

applicable to such a

01:21:47

20

determination."

01:21:48

21
22
23
24
25

What's the intent of that sentence,
Mr. Fruchterman?
MR. KAPLAN:
foundation.

01:21:53
Objection.

Lacks

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

01:21:51

01:21:53
01:21:54

So we're in a section

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156
1

that's essentially frequently asked questions, and

01:22:08

2

we're trying to provide answers.

01:22:10

3

to describe that if you're a professional with

01:22:18

4

some professional competence that allows you to

01:22:23

5

make this assessment, if someone has a disability

01:22:26

6

that gets in the way of them reading, you should

01:22:30

7

be able to sign the form saying that they have a

01:22:32

8

qualifying disability.

01:22:35

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:22:40

10
11

Q.

And we're trying

Let's turn to page 11 of Exhibit 55.

At

the top of the page, it says:

01:22:46

"Bookshare is a nonprofit

12

01:22:40

01:22:50

13

entity established with a

01:22:51

14

principal purpose of helping

01:22:52

15

people with disabilities.

01:22:54

16

would very much like to see more

01:22:56

17

people with disabilities,

01:22:58

18

including more students, benefit

01:22:59

19

from our services.

01:23:02

20

are bound first by copyright law

01:23:03

21

and, when it comes to serving

01:23:06

22

students, special education law."

01:23:08

It

However, we

23

What does this mean?

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

Objection.

01:23:10
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
157
1

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

I'll ask it a different way.

3

01:23:19

just read?

01:23:22
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

01:23:17

What was the intent of this text that I

2

4

01:23:17

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

01:23:26

THE WITNESS:

7

01:23:24

This is in a frequently

01:23:28

8

asked questions area, and the question being asked

01:23:29

9

is:

01:23:32
"Why doesn't Bookshare follow

10

01:23:32

11

special education law in

01:23:34

12

determining eligibility for

01:23:35

13

services?"

01:23:36

The reason we get that question is some

14
15

people say, My student's in special ed.

16

Why don't

they get Bookshare?
And the answer is some students who are

17

01:23:36
01:23:38
01:23:43
01:23:43

18

in special ed don't meet the requirement of the

01:23:46

19

copyright exception.

01:23:51

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:23:53

21

Q.

That's the Chafee Amendment.

01:23:53

22

A.

That's the Chafee Amendment.

01:23:55

And some of those students might

01:23:58

23
24

actually benefit from our services, but we -- when

01:24:00

25

we're dealing with special ed students, we're --

01:24:03

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158
1

we're bound by actually multiple legal regimes,

01:24:06

2

and we have to operate at the intersection of

01:24:08

3

those.

01:24:11

4

Q.

Which brings me to the next passage on

01:24:11

5

this page that I'd like to read to you, in the

01:24:13

6

second paragraph.

01:24:15

7

"The standards set in the

01:24:16

8

U.S. copyright laws which permit

01:24:17

9

copying and distribution of these

01:24:19

10

copyrighted materials apply only

01:24:21

11

to certain specified groups of

01:24:22

12

people.

01:24:24

13

the Chafee Amendment, 17 United

01:24:26

14

States Code Section 121, to

01:24:28

15

provide such services which

01:24:31

16

would" -- "which would otherwise

01:24:32

17

be copyright infringement.

01:24:34

18

Bookshare does not set the rules

01:24:38

19

for qualification.

01:24:39

20

important that Bookshare respect

01:24:42

21

these rules to ensure we can

01:24:43

22

continue to serve people with the

01:24:46

23

most significant disabilities when

01:24:48

24

it comes to reading print.

01:24:49

25

copyright law exemption."

Bookshare qualifies under

Thus,

It is very

The

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
159
Do you agree with this?

1
2

A.

01:24:54

Well, it looks like that extra clause,

01:24:56

3

"the copyright law exemption," is a typo that

01:24:58

4

needs to be deleted since it doesn't seem to be

01:25:03

5

part of the sentence.

01:25:05

But excluding that clause --

6

01:25:07

7

Q.

Right.

01:25:09

8

A.

-- I would say that I agree with this.

01:25:10

9

Q.

So I'd like to skip down two paragraphs,

01:25:13

10

to the next passage I'd like to read to you.

01:25:15

11

"This copyright law exemption

01:25:18

12

is a social bargain which tries to

01:25:21

13

balance the needs of people who

01:25:23

14

are unable to read normal print

01:25:24

15

with the economic rights of

01:25:26

16

publishers and authors.

01:25:27

17

simply based on who might benefit

01:25:30

18

from access to accessible

01:25:32

19

materials.

01:25:35

20

exemption to a group of people who

01:25:37

21

are assumed to not be able to

01:25:38

22

access regular print materials

01:25:41

23

because of a severe disability.

01:25:43

24

Publishers and authors do not

01:25:46

25

receive a royalty under this

01:25:47

It is not

It restricts the

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160
1

copyright exemption, so they have

01:25:49

2

an economic interest in ensuring

01:25:51

3

it stays narrowly focused on the

01:25:54

4

2 percent of the population who

01:25:56

5

cannot read standard print."

01:25:58

6

Do you agree with this passage?

01:26:00

7

MR. KAPLAN:

01:26:06

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Objection.

Vague.

As an informal expression

of how we operate, yes.

01:26:10

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11

exhibit very print accessible.
THE WITNESS:

12

01:26:08

They didn't make this

I'm -- I'm trying to

01:26:16
01:26:17
01:26:20

13

magnify it now.

01:26:21

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:26:26

15

Q.

Let's turn to page 12 of Exhibit 55.

01:26:26

16

A.

Okay.

01:26:31

17

Q.

Before, Mr. Fruchterman, we were talking

01:26:33

about membership costs -- do you remember that? --

01:26:34

18
19

A.

Yes.

01:26:37

20

Q.

-- to join Bookshare.

01:26:38

So it says here:

01:26:39

21
22

"U.S. students free and other

01:26:40

23

individuals $50 annual and a $25

01:26:42

24

setup."

01:26:45

25

Is that still the normal individual cost

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161
1
2

to become a member of Bookshare?
A.

01:26:49

If you're in wealthy countries and don't

01:26:55

3

have a third party paying for your service, or

01:26:58

4

we've comp'ed you for some reason on a very

01:27:03

5

limited basis, I think that's accurate.

01:27:07

6

Q.

Okay.
MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

01:27:09
Counsel, actually, I have a

question that goes to the stipulation.

01:27:11

When was this document created?

9

01:27:10

When

01:27:16

10

did your office create this based on -- when did

01:27:18

11

you visit the Benetech web site to create this

01:27:21

12

document?

01:27:24

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

MR. HUDIS:

August.

16

MR. KAPLAN:

Okay.

17

shot or a PDF?

We're in August?
September.

MR. HUDIS:

19

MS. CAPPAERT:

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

MS. CAPPAERT:

22

MR. HUDIS:
shots.

And is this a screen

What's the program we use?
We use?

Yeah.

These are Snagit

Thank you.

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

MR. HUDIS:

01:27:28

01:27:30
01:27:32
01:27:36
01:27:38
01:27:38

Snagit.

Snagit.

01:27:25

01:27:29

How was it created?

18

23

September?

01:27:39
01:27:43
01:27:44

Okay.
So that was the software we

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
162
1
2

used to do these captures.
Q.

01:27:50

Now, if an organization were to join

01:28:01

3

Bookshare, your schools could be joining for free,

01:28:03

4

and then other organizations -- how is this charge

01:28:06

5

rendered on 6 to $10 per book?

01:28:11

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

01:28:16

So organizations can buy,

01:28:17

8

essentially, a package of downloads.

And I think

01:28:20

9

that if you pay $300, you can download 30 titles,

01:28:25

10

30 books.

01:28:31

11

getting a group of books.

So instead of buying a

01:28:35

12

subscription for each student, you can just get a

01:28:40

13

package of books.

01:28:44

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:28:45

15
16
17

Q.

So that would be a fee associated with

And this -- and on page 12, it's

01:28:45

describing that package?
A.

01:28:47

It has a link --

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

01:28:48

Objection.
Yeah.

Vague.

01:28:50

It has a link to

01:28:51

20

where those things are described, but it doesn't

01:28:55

21

actually describe those packages on this page.

01:28:57

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:28:59

23
24
25

Q.

Let's turn to page 13 of Exhibit 55.

It

says:

01:28:59
01:29:03

"Welcome to Bookshare.

You

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1

must log in to use this page or

01:29:05

2

sign up for a Bookshare account."

01:29:07

My question, Mr. Fruchterman, is there a

3

01:29:09

4

log-in requirement to access Bookshare as a

01:29:11

5

member?

01:29:14

6

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

7

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

If a person wishes to

01:29:15
01:29:19

8

download copyrighted materials, they need to have

01:29:20

9

a Bookshare account and have supplied proof of

01:29:23

10

disability and have paid the fee if applicable.

01:29:27

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:29:29

12
13
14
15

Q.

And once you've done all of that, do you

get a user name and password?
A.

Yes.

01:29:29
01:29:31

You tend to use your e-mail plus a

password, yes.

01:29:37
01:29:39

16

Q.

Could we turn to page 15, of Exhibit 55.

01:29:44

17

A.

Okay.

01:29:47

18

Q.

So the first paragraph:

01:30:00

19

"Bookshare is a Benetech

01:30:01

20

initiative.

Benetech operates

21

Bookshare under an exception to

01:30:05

22

copyright law called the Chafee

01:30:07

23

Amendment, 17 United States Code

01:30:08

24

Section 121, which makes Bookshare

01:30:11

25

legally possible in the U.S.

01:30:13

01:30:03

The

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1

Chafee Amendment allows us to

01:30:16

2

provide copyrighted digital books

01:30:19

3

as long as they are available only

01:30:20

4

to people with bona fide print

01:30:22

5

disabilities.

01:30:24

6

does not provide access to

01:30:26

7

copyrighted works for the general

01:30:28

8

public."

01:30:29

The Bookshare site

Do you agree with this statement?

01:30:30

10

MR. KAPLAN:

01:30:32

11

THE WITNESS:

9

12
13
14
15

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

01:30:35

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

01:30:35
The next paragraph says --

and I'm not reading the whole thing.
"Although the requirements of

01:30:35
01:30:38
01:30:39

16

the copyright law exception are

01:30:40

17

clear, Benetech has gone beyond

01:30:43

18

these requirements to ensure broad

01:30:45

19

support for the project.

01:30:46

20

been working for more than a

01:30:49

21

decade with the Association of

01:30:50

22

American Publishers, the main

01:30:53

23

American industry group, to

01:30:55

24

address publishers' concerns about

01:30:56

25

the design of the service."

01:31:00

We have

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1

In what ways, Mr. Fruchterman, did you

01:31:03

2

work with the Association of American Publishers

01:31:06

3

to address their concerns about the design of

01:31:07

4

Bookshare?

01:31:10
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Argumentative.

Vague.

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

7
8

Objection.

This is another

confidential segment.

01:31:13
01:31:21
01:31:22

We had the meeting that we discussed in

9

01:31:12

01:31:27

10

prior testimony with the AAP roughly a year before

01:31:28

11

the launch of Bookshare.

01:31:32

12

we made various agreements around engaging the

01:31:35

13

publishing industry.

01:31:38

14

today include not surprising their general

01:31:45

15

counsel.

01:31:50

16

As part of that meeting,

Agreements that still hold

So any significant policy changes or

01:31:50

17

changes to our legal agreements, we give the

01:31:52

18

counsel for the association an early copy of those

01:31:56

19

and allow them to comment.

01:32:00

20

I think -- I think, in general, checking

01:32:05

21

in with them before we make major changes to the

01:32:08

22

service is the number one way.

01:32:10

23

years, we've made quite a number of changes or

01:32:13

24

accommodations based on those conversations.

01:32:16

But over the

25
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166
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:32:17

And that would include what we talked

01:32:18

3

about earlier; that's the storage of the content

01:32:20

4

on your service -- on your servers or, more

01:32:23

5

recently, the Amazon cloud --

01:32:26

MR. KAPLAN:

6
7
8

01:32:29

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:32:29

-- in a secure manner?
MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

Objection.

testimony.

Misstates

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

11

Objection.

01:32:29
01:32:31
01:32:32

I would differentiate

01:32:35

12

between things that are just the way we operate

01:32:36

13

the service and representations or changes we've

01:32:38

14

made in conversations with the publishers.

01:32:41

There are many, many things where we

15

01:32:44

16

simply say, We're doing it this way, and -- they

01:32:45

17

don't -- the association doesn't have any ability

01:32:50

18

to approve of our activities.

01:32:53

19

place, as it were.

01:32:57

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:32:59

It's not their

21

Q.

Right.

01:32:59

22

A.

They're simply a way to effectively

01:33:01

23

converse with the industry association and with

01:33:03

24

the industry.

01:33:06

25

think their members want to hear about, they'll go

And if they see an issue that they

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
167
1

back to their members and talk to them.

2

So it's

an efficiency mechanism.

01:33:14

But there is a difference between things

3

01:33:12

01:33:16

4

we just do and things we've explicitly conversed

01:33:17

5

with them and maybe made changes as a result of

01:33:21

6

that conversation.

01:33:23

So what I'm concerned about is how you

01:33:24

8

worked with the American -- with the Association

01:33:27

9

of American Publishers to make them comfortable

01:33:30

10

that the Bookshare site would not be subject to

01:33:34

11

abuse.

01:33:37

7

Q.

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

Was there a

question?
Yes.

I'll phrase it a

different way.

01:33:44
01:33:48

In what ways did you work with the

01:33:49

17

Association of American Publishers to ensure

01:33:50

18

that -- to make them comfortable that the

01:33:56

19

Bookshare site would not be the subject of abuse?

01:33:59

20

That people in the sighted community would not be

01:34:03

21

able to download their content without permission,

01:34:06

22

without compensation?

01:34:11

23

MR. KAPLAN:

16

24
25

Q.

01:33:40
01:33:43

MR. HUDIS:

14
15

Objection.

Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

01:34:13
01:34:14

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

So we're now in a

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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168
1

much narrower area, and I'd say the

01:34:21

2

representations in our seven-point digital rights

01:34:25

3

management plan were the primary mechanism that we

01:34:32

4

dealt with that particular concern of the

01:34:37

5

publishing industry.

01:34:40

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:34:41

7
8

Q.

Okay.

The last sentence on that page,

page 15 of Exhibit 55, it says:

01:34:49

"With the extensive input

9

01:34:46

01:34:51

10

from consumers, authors,

01:34:54

11

publishers and leading

01:34:56

12

organizations, we have created a

01:34:57

13

model for Bookshare that can be

01:34:59

14

supported by a broad array of

01:35:01

15

interests."

01:35:04

What model is this passage talking

16
17

about?

19

01:35:08
MR. KAPLAN:

18

Objection.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

20

01:35:05

01:35:09
01:35:10

The Bookshare operational

01:35:14

21

model.

01:35:17

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:35:21

23
24
25

Q.

How would you describe the Bookshare

operational model?
A.

A package of technologies and policies

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01:35:21
01:35:22
01:35:24

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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169
1

and legal agreements and product features and -- I

01:35:27

2

mean, you know, it's a -- these things combined

01:35:33

3

create a service that delivers a value to people

01:35:38

4

with disabilities in a way that gets support from

01:35:46

5

these different stakeholders.

01:35:48

6

Q.

Including the publishing industry?

01:35:53

7

A.

Yes.

01:35:55

8

Q.

Could we turn to page 16 of Exhibit 55.

01:35:57

Under copyright information, it says:

01:36:00

9
10

"Bookshare is an online

01:36:02

11

library that provides accessible

01:36:04

12

eBooks to people with print

01:36:06

13

disabilities.

01:36:07

14

requirements of the Chafee

01:36:09

15

Amendment which permits an

01:36:09

16

authorized entity like Benetech to

01:36:12

17

make books available to people

01:36:14

18

with print disabilities provided

01:36:16

19

that copies may not be reproduced

01:36:17

20

or distributed in a format other

01:36:19

21

than a specialized format

01:36:21

22

exclusively for use by blind or

01:36:23

23

other persons with disabilities.

01:36:25

24

Must bear a notice that any

01:36:27

25

further reproduction or

01:36:32

Bookshare meets the

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170
1

distribution in a format other

01:36:33

2

than a specialized format is an

01:36:35

3

infringement.

01:36:37

4

copyright notice identifying the

01:36:39

5

copyright owner and the date of

01:36:43

6

the original publication.

01:36:45

7

'Specialized formats' means

01:36:46

8

Braille, audio or digital text

01:36:50

9

which is exclusively intended for

01:36:53

10

use by blind or other persons with

01:36:54

11

disabilities."

01:36:56

12

All right.

13

Must include a

So I've read this passage,

Mr. Fruchterman.

01:36:59
01:37:01

14

A.

Right.

01:37:01

15

Q.

Does this accurately describe the

01:37:01

16

overall way that Benetech makes reading materials

01:37:03

17

available to its members?

01:37:07

18
19
20

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Misleading.
THE WITNESS:

01:37:08
01:37:09

I think that these bullet

01:37:14

21

points that you just read recapitulate the

01:37:16

22

provisions of the Chafee Amendment, which is the

01:37:19

23

primary copyright exception that we use for making

01:37:23

24

copyright material to people with qualifying

01:37:26

25

disabilities inside the United States.

01:37:28

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
171
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:37:31
01:37:31

What is the purpose of this page on

3

If we could go to page 17 of Exhibit 55.

01:37:36

4

Bookshare's web site?

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

01:37:38
Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

01:37:41

THE WITNESS:

7

01:37:40

This is part of our,

01:37:44

8

essentially, frequently asked questions, and it's

01:37:45

9

entitled "Digital Millennium Copyright Act."

01:37:49

10

And so as a -- and I'm not a lawyer, but

01:37:54

11

my understanding is is someone who provides access

01:37:58

12

to copyrighted material online, we are required to

01:38:02

13

have a DMCA agent to accept notices that there is

01:38:06

14

content on our web site that infringes the

01:38:12

15

copyright of others.

01:38:14

We frequently get DMCA notices from

16

01:38:17

17

authors or their agents or publishers saying, We

01:38:23

18

searched the web.

01:38:26

19

web site.

20

This copyright work is on your

Take it down.
And this is both explaining the DMCA

01:38:29
01:38:30

21

notice process at some level, as well as the, more

01:38:36

22

or less, if you don't know what the Chafee

01:38:40

23

Amendment is, you should look it up because we're

01:38:42

24

allowed to have it.

01:38:47

25

But I'm summarizing this in very direct

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172
1

terms, because it's very rare for someone to issue

01:38:54

2

us a DMCA notice that results in us actually

01:38:56

3

taking down the work because it's usually legally

01:39:01

4

permitted under the copyright amendment.

01:39:04

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:39:05

6

Q.

The Chafee Amendment to the copyright?

01:39:06

7

A.

The Chafee Amendment.

01:39:07

Or often a

8

license from the author's publisher who gave us

01:39:10

9

the content, but the author and their agent

01:39:12

10

weren't aware this was one of the nice things that

01:39:14

11

their publisher did for their entire catalog of

01:39:17

12

books, not just that author.

01:39:21

13
14

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, could we turn to page

18 of Exhibit 55.

01:39:25

Is this text on page 18 Bookshare's

15

01:39:23

01:39:34

16

digital rights plan -- digital rights management

01:39:40

17

plan?

01:39:46

18

A.

This is the current or, let's just say,

01:39:46

19

last month's current -- but I don't believe it's

01:39:49

20

changed since last month -- version of our

01:39:51

21

seven-point digital rights management plan that we

01:39:53

22

have discussed earlier.

01:39:56

23
24
25

Q.

And what was the purpose of Bookshare

implementing this DRM plan?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

01:39:58
01:39:59

Vague.

Lacks

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173
1

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

2

01:40:05
I would say that the

01:40:11

3

purpose of this was to represent to the

01:40:12

4

intellectual property industry, especially

01:40:17

5

publishers, that we were intending to follow the

01:40:19

6

law when it came to use of these materials.

01:40:22

7

was created for that original conversation we had

01:40:25

8

with the publishing industry quite a number of

01:40:27

9

years ago.

01:40:31

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:40:31

10
11

Q.

So it

And when you say "these materials,"

01:40:32

12

that's the copyrighted materials on the Bookshare

01:40:34

13

web site?

01:40:36
MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

Misstates

testimony.

01:40:39
01:40:40

THE WITNESS:

16
17

Objection.

Yes.

01:40:42

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:40:43

18

Q.

Could we turn to page 19.

01:40:43

19

A.

Mh-hmm.

01:40:46

20

Q.

What's the purpose of this sign-up page?

01:40:46

21
22
23
24
25

That's page 19 of Exhibit 55.
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

01:40:52
Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

01:40:54
01:40:55

This is a screen shot that

appears to be of the individual sign-up for

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
174
1

Bookshare that is collecting data about a

01:41:22

2

potential user in order to start the process of

01:41:24

3

becoming a Bookshare member.

01:41:29

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:41:32

And at the bottom it says -- it has a

01:41:32

6

check box, and then you would sign your name or

01:41:34

7

its equivalent.

01:41:36

5

Q.

Do you see at the bottom?

8

01:41:38

9

A.

Yes.

01:41:39

10

Q.

And by doing so you're agreeing to the

01:41:39

11

terms and conditions of the Bookshare web site.

12

Do you see that?

13

MR. KAPLAN:

14

01:41:44

Objection.

Is the -- the

question is whether or not he sees that check box?
MR. HUDIS:

15

Counsel, good.

01:41:45
01:41:49
01:41:53

Is the purpose of this check box to have

01:41:55

17

the user acknowledge that he or she is agreeing to

01:42:02

18

the terms and conditions of the Bookshare web

01:42:04

19

site?

01:42:07

16

20
21

Q.

01:41:42

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.

22

MR. HUDIS:

23

THE WITNESS:

01:42:08
01:42:09

Thank you, Counsel.
Yes.

I believe that that

01:42:10
01:42:13

24

check box and the filling in of your name

01:42:14

25

indicates that you're agreeing to the terms and

01:42:17

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175
1

conditions of our -- of our -- of our agreement,

01:42:19

2

of our Bookshare individual membership agreement.

01:42:22

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:42:25

4

Q.

5

Exhibit 55.

6

the -- of the Bookshare web site?

7
8

A.

And if you could turn to page 20 of

01:42:25

Are those the terms and conditions of

01:42:31

It appears to be our standard Bookshare

membership agreement of a recent date.
MR. HUDIS:

9

01:42:26

01:42:34
01:42:38

Counsel, same request.

Can

01:42:48

10

we stipulate this is a business record of

01:42:49

11

Benetech?

01:42:53
MR. KAPLAN:

12

Subject to your

01:42:58

13

representation that this is -- each page

01:42:59

14

represents a complete Snagit screen shot of a

01:43:04

15

particular web site or web page of the Benetech

01:43:07

16

web site, I believe so.

01:43:12

But can we go off the record for just a

17
18

second?

20

Yes.

I consent.

We can go

off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

21
22

01:43:18
MR. HUDIS:

19

01:43:15

01:43:19
01:43:20

Okay.

Going off the

record at 1:43.

01:43:21
01:43:21

23

(Discussion held off record.)

01:43:40

24

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

01:43:50

25

Back on the record at

1:43.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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176
MR. KAPLAN:

1

So subject to Counsel's

01:43:53

2

representation regarding the contents of this

01:43:55

3

exhibit, we stipulate to its authenticity as

01:43:57

4

select web pages from the Benetech web site.

01:44:03

MR. HUDIS:

5

All right.

6

authenticity.

7

was what I was concerned about.

8

the authenticity.

What about business record?

That

You stipulated to

We do have -- I do --

MR. KAPLAN:

9

Now, that's the

You want a stipulation that

01:44:06
01:44:07
01:44:09
01:44:14
01:44:20

10

the statements in here are not hearsay for the

01:44:22

11

purpose of --

01:44:25

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

MR. KAPLAN:

For what they contain.
I don't believe we can

01:44:27
01:44:41

14

stipulate that -- to that because, as far as I

01:44:42

15

know, we don't represent Benetech.

01:44:45

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:44:49

17

Q.

All right.

So if you could -- if,

01:44:49

18

Mr. Fruchterman, you could put Exhibit 55 back in

01:44:52

19

front of you.

01:44:56

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

All right.

01:44:58
So the pages on Exhibit 55,

01:44:58

22

I'm going to represent to you that they are Snagit

01:45:02

23

screen shots of the Bookshare web site.

01:45:04

24
25

So my question is are these pages items
of data compilations made by Benetech?

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177
1

A.

You used a term of --

01:45:18

2

Q.

Term of art.

01:45:20

3

A.

-- that I don't know.

01:45:22

4

Q.

Okay.

01:45:23

This is -- all right.

5

Is this content on Exhibit 55 content

01:45:26

6

that was created by Benetech and its employees?

01:45:28

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

We also had the assistance

01:45:36
01:45:55

of counsel in creating some of this material,

01:45:59

10

and --

01:46:03

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:46:04

9

12
13

Q.

That person would count as an employee

of Benetech.

01:46:04
01:46:11

14

(Reporter interruption.)

01:46:12

15

THE WITNESS:

01:46:14

16

No.

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:46:14

17

Q.

No?

18

A.

I mean, we use --

01:46:17

19

MR. KAPLAN:

01:46:19

20

THE WITNESS:

21

(Reporter interruption.)

22

All right.

Maybe.
-- pro bono counsel --

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:46:15

01:46:19
01:46:23
01:46:24

23

Q.

One person.

Okay.

24

A.

Please frame a --

01:46:27

25

Q.

Better question?

01:46:28

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178
1

A.

Yes, please.

01:46:29

2

Q.

Okay.

01:46:32

So with the assistance of

3

counsel, was the content of Exhibit 55 created by

01:46:33

4

employees of Benetech?

01:46:38

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

foundation.

Objection.

01:46:42

Vague.

01:46:42

THE WITNESS:

7

Lacks

The content that we

01:46:45

8

reviewed in Exhibit 55 was created by employees,

01:46:47

9

contractors, pro bono counsel, paid counsel, of

01:46:56

10

Benetech.

01:47:03

11

of the people who helped created this content.

01:47:05

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:47:09

13

Q.

I believe that's a comprehensive list

Was the content created for the web

01:47:09

14

pages of Exhibit 55 made in the regular course of

01:47:12

15

Benetech's business?

01:47:15

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

Objection.

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

18

Vague.

Calls

Lacks foundation.

01:47:16
01:47:17

In the common

01:47:22

19

understanding of what that would mean, yes.

01:47:22

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:47:24

21

Q.

All right.

Was the content on

01:47:24

22

Exhibit 55 kept by Benetech in the regular course

01:47:27

23

of its business?

01:47:31

24
25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

for a legal conclusion.

Vague.

Calls

Lacks foundation.

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
179
1

THE WITNESS:

2

that serves these pages up, yes.

01:47:37

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:47:39

4

Q.

We maintain the web site

And is it a regular practice of Benetech

01:47:35

01:47:39

5

to create web pages of the type shown in

01:47:45

6

Exhibit 55?

01:47:48

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

foundation.

for this part?

Okay.

MR. HUDIS:

12
13

Lacks

As far as I know, yes.

All right.
In my opinion, no.

MR. KAPLAN:

15

How's

we should discuss it.

18
19

THE WITNESS:

If you want to discuss it,

Let's see where else we go

with this.

01:48:21

01:48:25
01:48:28

MR. HUDIS:

We're done with this

exhibit, so ...

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 56 was

Great.

01:48:31

All right.

01:48:33

marked for identification.)
THE WITNESS:

01:48:28
01:48:29

THE WITNESS:

24

01:48:16

01:48:22

20

23

01:48:06

01:48:20

14

17

01:47:55

01:48:08

that?

16

01:47:50
01:47:51

Should I have my general counsel here

10
11

Vague.

Calls for a legal conclusion.

THE WITNESS:

9

Objection.

Okay.

25
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01:49:01

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
180
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

6

Mr. Fruchterman, I show you what's been

marked as Exhibit 56.

01:49:02
01:49:04

Do you recognize the document?

4
5

01:49:02

A.

01:49:06

Yes.

01:49:09

It's an article I coauthored a

dozen years ago.

01:49:13

7

Q.

You coauthored that with Alison Lingane?

01:49:14

8

A.

Correct.

01:49:20

9

Q.

At the bottom of the first page of

01:49:28

10

Exhibit 56, it says:

01:49:31

"The essence of the social

11

01:49:32

12

bargain between publishers and the

01:49:34

13

disability community was to

01:49:36

14

provide easier access to people

01:49:37

15

with disabilities while protecting

01:49:39

16

the economic interests of

01:49:41

17

publishers.

01:49:43

I gather that means Chafee Amendment?

18
19

A.

20

Q.

25

Correct.

01:49:47

"Chafee was drawn narrowly to

01:49:48
01:49:51

Do you still agree with this passage?

22

24

01:49:45

seal this bargain."

21

23

Chafee" --

A.

01:49:53

I do, though I was not present when the

01:49:55

Chafee Amendment was passed.
Q.

If we could turn to page 2 of

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01:49:57
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
181
1

Exhibit 56.

01:50:02

"It is of course extremely

2

At the top it says:

01:50:05

3

important that organizations

01:50:07

4

operating under Chafee do so with

01:50:08

5

the utmost integrity and with" --

01:50:10

6

"and within the strict letter of

01:50:13

7

the law to protect this important

01:50:15

8

amendment that has provided such a

01:50:17

9

big leap forward for access."

01:50:19

10

Do you still agree with this passage?

01:50:22

11

MR. KAPLAN:

01:50:24

12

THE WITNESS:

13
14

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:50:25
01:50:30

I'd like you to drop down under the

01:50:31

15

title "How Has Chafee Affected Education," to the

01:50:32

16

second paragraph.

01:50:35

17

second sentence of that paragraph it says:

18

And then it -- and in the

"The Chafee definition of

01:50:38
01:50:39

19

entities authorized to make

01:50:41

20

accessible books is a nonprofit

01:50:43

21

organization or a governmental

01:50:46

22

agency that has a primary mission

01:50:48

23

to provide specialized services

01:50:50

24

relating to training, education or

01:50:52

25

adaptive reading or information,

01:50:55

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
182
1

access needs of blind or other

01:50:58

2

persons with disabilities."

01:51:00

3

Do you still agree with that?

01:51:02

4

MR. KAPLAN:

01:51:04

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
Yes.

Vague.

That's an informal

01:51:04

6

summary of the requirements of the Chafee

01:51:06

7

Amendment.

01:51:07

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:51:12

9
10

Q.

definition of "authorized entity"?
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

legal conclusion.

15

Objection.

Calls for a
Vague.

Yes.

01:51:21
01:51:22
01:51:26

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

01:51:16
01:51:19

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

13
14

And Bookshare complies with this

01:51:26

Do you know whether the defendant in

01:51:27

16

this case, Public.Resource, qualifies under this

01:51:29

17

definition?

01:51:32

18

A.

01:51:35

MR. KAPLAN:

19
20

I am --

legal conclusion.

Calls for a

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

21

Objection.

I am not an attorney, and

01:51:36
01:51:36
01:51:39

22

I have not investigated that either.

01:51:41

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:51:47

24
25

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, could we turn to page 3

of Exhibit 56.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
183
1

A.

Yes.

01:51:53

2

Q.

I draw your attention to the second full

01:51:55

3

paragraph.

It says, "Even with Chafee."

01:51:58

Are you following me?

4

01:52:01

5

A.

No.

01:52:02

6

Q.

Okay.

01:52:02

7

A.

So what page are we on again?

01:52:03

8

Q.

Three.

01:52:07

9

A.

Okay.

MR. HUDIS:

10
11

All right.

Counsel.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you,

01:52:07
01:52:08

Appreciate it.
It says, in the second sentence of that

12

Q.

13

01:52:09
01:52:11

paragraph:

01:52:16

14

"Working with publishers

01:52:16

15

directly (individually or legally

01:52:18

16

mandated as with the IMAA) to

01:52:21

17

create a secure distribution

01:52:25

18

system to qualifying individuals

01:52:28

19

from original digital files would

01:52:30

20

save work for everybody, while at

01:52:33

21

the same time make access by

01:52:35

22

people with disabilities faster,

01:52:37

23

higher quality, and more

01:52:39

24

comprehensive."

01:52:40

25

First of all, do you still agree with

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
184
1

this?

01:52:45

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

This is a very dated

01:52:46
01:52:50

4

document.

01:52:51

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

01:52:52

6

Q.

Okay.

01:52:54

7

A.

And I would say that this was making the

01:52:54

8

case for Bookshare roughly in its first year of

01:52:59

9

existence, and I would say that we have

01:53:02

10

accomplished many of the things we set out to

01:53:08

11

accomplish as expressed in this paragraph with the

01:53:10

12

Bookshare solution that exists today.

01:53:13

13

Q.

Did you investigate whether

14

Public.Resource has done this?

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

01:53:17
01:53:18

Vague.

My scope of my expert

01:53:21
01:53:26

17

engagement was to evaluate the accessibility of

01:53:28

18

several documents.

01:53:30

19

on Public.Resource.Org and whether or not it

01:53:32

20

qualified.

01:53:37
MR. KAPLAN:

21
22
23
24
25

I didn't do any legal research

I think you can say that

out loud.

01:53:47
01:53:48

MR. HUDIS:

Okay.

Counsel, I'd like to

go off the record.
MR. KAPLAN:

01:53:49
01:53:50

No problem.

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01:53:51

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
185
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

1

This is the end of

2

Tape Number 2 in the deposition of

3

James Fruchterman.

4

the record.

01:53:52
01:53:53

The time is 1:53.

Going off

01:53:57
01:53:59

5

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

01:59:14

6

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 57 was

01:59:14

7

marked for identification.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

01:59:14

Here begins Tape

02:01:05

No. 3 in the deposition of James Fruchterman.

02:01:07

10

Back on the record at 2:01.

02:01:08

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:01:13

8
9

12
13
14
15

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I've marked as

Exhibit 57 and ask if you recognize the document.
A.

Yes.

It's an article I wrote seven or

eight years ago.

02:01:14
02:01:19
02:01:24

What is the article of Exhibit 57 about?

02:01:28

17

MR. KAPLAN:

02:01:34

18

THE WITNESS:

16

Q.

02:01:13

Objection.

Vague.

It's a case study on the

02:01:35

19

creation of my nonprofit organization, Benetech.

02:01:37

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:01:40

21

Q.

So you describe in the first paragraph

22

your organization Benetech.

23

And, again, it's

dated 2007, 2008.

02:01:49
02:01:50
02:01:54

24

"We build innovation

02:01:57

25

technology solutions and widely

02:01:58

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186
1

promote entrepreneurial models for

02:01:59

2

developing projects in the

02:02:03

3

nonprofit community.

02:02:04

4

founded as a nonprofit social

02:02:06

5

enterprise in 1989 to pursue the

02:02:08

6

making of affordable reading

02:02:11

7

machines for the blind."

02:02:12

And it continues.

8

Benetech was

It says:

"Because the market wasn't"

9

02:02:13
02:02:16

10

-- "wasn't interesting to my

02:02:16

11

original venture capital-backed

02:02:19

12

company."

02:02:22

Now, you were referring to Arkenstone?

13

02:02:22
02:02:27

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

Calera.

All right.

And is that an accurate description of

16
17

Calera.

why you founded Benetech?

02:02:28
02:02:31
02:02:33

18

A.

Yes.

02:02:35

19

Q.

And then it says:

02:02:37

20

"We've since branched out

02:02:39

21

into three major fields in the

02:02:42

22

social sector:

02:02:44

23

technology solutions to people

02:02:46

24

with disabilities, human rights

02:02:47

25

groups and environmental groups."

02:02:49

Helping provide

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
187
So providing technology solutions to

1
2
3
4

people with disabilities, that's Bookshare?
A.

That's one of our projects in the area

of helping people with disabilities, yes.

02:02:52
02:02:54
02:02:58
02:03:00

5

Q.

And then the other one was Route 66?

02:03:02

6

A.

That's another one.

02:03:06

7

Q.

All right.

02:03:07

8

A.

There are more.

02:03:08

9

Q.

And then in the human rights arena, that

02:03:10

10

would be Martus?

11

A.

12

02:03:14

That is our primary product in that

field.

02:03:18

13

MR. KAPLAN:

14

THE WITNESS:

15
16
17

02:03:18

Sorry.

02:03:19
02:03:19

And what is your project in the

environmental area?
MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

Objection.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:03:19
02:03:21

Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

02:03:22
02:03:23

THE WITNESS:

20

02:03:16

21

Miradi software project.

22

At the time, it was the
M-I-R-A-D-I.

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:03:25
02:03:27
02:03:32

23

Q.

And what did Miradi do?

02:03:32

24

A.

Essentially project management software

02:03:35

25

for environmental project managers.

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02:03:37

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
188
1

Q.

If you could turn to page 86 of

2

Exhibit 57.

3

"Our initial reading machine."

02:03:53

In the middle of the page it says,

02:03:55
02:04:03

Do you see that?

4

02:04:05

5

A.

Yes.

02:04:05

6

Q.

All right.

02:04:05

"Our initial reading machine

7

02:04:06

8

had four major components:

The

9

PC, the Calera OCR board, a

02:04:08

10

DECtalk voice synthesizer board

02:04:11

11

and a Hewlett-Packard scanner.

02:04:14

12

Together, these three additional

02:04:17

13

pieces turned the standard PC into

02:04:18

14

a reading machine."

02:04:20

02:04:07

My question is, Mr. Fruchterman, are

15

02:04:21

16

these the hardware elements of an OCR reading

02:04:24

17

machine?

02:04:28
MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

for speculation.

Vague.

Calls

Lacks foundation.

THE WITNESS:

20

Objection.

This is a description of

02:04:30
02:04:35
02:04:43

21

our earliest reading system based on the Calera

02:04:49

22

TrueScan board.

02:04:56

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:05:22

24
25

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, could you please turn

to page 95 of Exhibit 57.

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189
1

A.

Yes.

02:05:37

2

Q.

Now, we talked about this outside a very

02:05:37

3

narrow description, so I'd like to ask you here.

02:05:43

4

I am under Bookshare.org, the third full paragraph

02:05:45

5

which starts with "Jerry also came up with."

02:05:52

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

02:05:57
So I'm concentrating on the

second sentence of that paragraph.
"So a year before Bookshare

9

was ready" --

10

02:05:57
02:05:59
02:06:02
02:06:03

Who is Jerry?

11

02:06:06

12

A.

My counsel.

02:06:08

13

Q.

Okay.

02:06:09

14

-- "Jerry got us a meeting with the

02:06:11

15

copyright committee of the

02:06:12

16

Association of American Publishers.

02:06:13

17

This committee is made up of the top

02:06:15

18

lawyers from the major publishers.

02:06:17

19

We explained how we would honor the

02:06:19

20

social bargain in the legal

02:06:21

21

exception:

02:06:23

22

disabilities while not hurting the

02:06:25

23

business interests of publishers and

02:06:27

24

authors.

02:06:28

25

with us to keep this social bargain

Help people with

Giving them a year to work

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02:06:31

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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190
1

gained us tremendous credibility

02:06:34

2

with the publishers and convinced

02:06:35

3

them not to sue us."

02:06:37

So we talked about before,

4

02:06:40

5

Mr. Fruchterman, about why, when you were founding

02:06:41

6

Bookshare, you were talking with the publishers.

02:06:47

Does this passage that I just read

7

02:06:49

8

accurately state why you met with the publishers

02:06:52

9

before Bookshare was founded?

02:06:56

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

12

02:06:59
02:07:01

Yes.

This is a public

02:07:08

13

description of the strategy that our counsel came

02:07:10

14

up with for us.

02:07:16

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 58 was

15
16
17
18
19

marked for identification.)
BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I show you what's been

marked as Exhibit 58.

02:07:40
02:07:40
02:07:40
02:08:04
02:08:06

20

Are you familiar with the book

02:08:08

21

"Assistive" -- "Assistive Technology for Visually

02:08:09

22

Impaired and Blind People"?

02:08:13

23

A.

Yes.

02:08:16

24

Q.

Were you a contributing author to this

02:08:23

25

book of Exhibit 58?

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02:08:25

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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191
1

A.

I wrote a chapter for the book.

02:08:28

2

Q.

Was the title of that book "Accessing

02:08:33

3

Books and Documents"?

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

02:08:37
Objection.

Form.

That was the title of the

02:08:37
02:08:39

6

chapter.

02:08:40

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:08:41

8
9

Q.

Thank you.

I will reask the question

because it was very poorly asked.

02:08:43

Was your chapter of the book "Assistive

10

02:08:41

02:08:45

11

Technology for Visually Impaired and Blind People"

02:08:49

12

titled "Accessing Books and Documents"?

02:08:53

13

A.

Yes.

02:08:55

14

Q.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, I'm going to

02:09:02

15

represent to you that this Exhibit 58 is not the

02:09:04

16

entire book.

02:09:07

The entire book --

17

A.

Great.

18

Q.

-- spans over 700 pages.

19
20
21
22
23

02:09:11
So I have only

provided a copy to you of your chapter.
A.

Okay.
MR. KAPLAN:

02:09:19
02:09:21

Is it Counsel's position

that this is fair use?
MR. HUDIS:

02:09:11

02:09:22
02:09:23

It is Counsel's position

02:09:25

24

that it is fair use in the context of litigation

02:09:26

25

with this witness.

02:09:29

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
192
1

Q.

Now, if you recall earlier today,

02:09:42

2

Mr. Fruchterman, we had discussed functional tasks

02:09:44

3

associated with a person with print disabilities

02:09:57

4

accessing content.

02:10:00

Do you remember that?

5

02:10:03
02:10:04

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

And you said that one of the

first functional tasks is to obtain the content?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

All right.

02:10:04
02:10:05
02:10:09

I'd like to read you here

02:10:09

11

from the -- from a portion of the first paragraph

02:10:15

12

of your Chapter 15 from Exhibit 58.

02:10:18

You see where it says, "Text

13
14

acquisition"?

15

A.

Okay.

16

Q.

Yes.

17

chapter.

18

A.

02:10:23
What page are we on?
It is the first page of your

page 555.

19

02:10:22

So it's not numbered itself, but it is

02:10:26
02:10:28
02:10:31
02:10:35

Okay.

So we're on the first page, which

20

is the titled "Chapter 15.

21

Accessing"-- "Learning

Objectives."

02:10:38
02:10:40
02:10:43

22

Q.

Right.

02:10:44

23

A.

Where am I looking right now?

02:10:44

24

Q.

Okay.

02:10:46

25

In the middle of that first

paragraph it says, "Text acquisition."

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193
1

A.

Yes.
"Text acquisition can be" --

2

(Reporter interruption.)

3
4
5

02:10:54

02:10:58

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:10:58

I'll read it.

It says:

02:10:59

"Text acquisition can be as

6

02:10:55

02:11:01

7

varied as scanning the printed

02:11:02

8

page and doing the optical

02:11:04

9

character recognition to directly

02:11:06

10

downloading the text from the

02:11:08

11

Internet."

02:11:10

What were you describing here?

12

02:11:12

13

A.

Acquiring the text.

02:11:33

14

Q.

That's why I was -- I was curious as to

02:11:38

15

our conversation earlier today, where you said

02:11:41

16

text acquisition was not something you would use.

02:11:44

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18
19

Objection.

Confusing.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

02:11:49
02:11:50

So we had discussed the

02:11:50

20

functional tasks associated with accessing content

02:11:52

21

of a person with print disabilities.

02:11:55

22

used "text acquisition."

23

wrong phrase, so I'm -- I'm confused as to the

02:12:01

24

nature of text acquisition used here in

02:12:05

25

Exhibit 58.

02:12:08

So I had

You said that was a

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194
The tasks described --

02:12:11

2

MR. KAPLAN:

02:12:13

3

THE WITNESS:

4

MR. KAPLAN:

1

5

A.

Sorry.

Please.

02:12:14

Counsel, there needs to be

02:12:16

a question.

02:12:16

MR. HUDIS:

6
7

Wait.

Q.

Okay.

02:12:20

What did you mean by "text acquisition"

02:12:20

8

in the context of the passage that I just read

02:12:22

9

from page 55 of Exhibit 58?

02:12:25

10
11
12

A.

Our earlier conversation encompassed

other tasks beyond the two listed here.
Q.

Okay.

02:12:43

So the two listed here are text

13

acquisition and accessible presentations.

14

that says:

And

02:12:53
02:12:56
02:12:58

"Accessible presentations

15

02:12:38

02:12:59

16

range from having a human reader

02:13:00

17

narrate the text to enlarged

02:13:03

18

print, to Braille, to synthetic

02:13:05

19

speech."

02:13:07

So what I'd like to know is what did you

20

02:13:07

21

mean by these two activities as described here on

02:13:09

22

page 55 of Exhibit -- 555 of Exhibit 58, "text

02:13:13

23

acquisition" and "accessible presentations"?

02:13:19

MR. KAPLAN:

24
25

Vague.

Objection.

Confusing.

Misstates the document.

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195
THE WITNESS:

1

The question appears to be

02:13:40

2

what did you mean by these two activities?

02:13:42

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:13:46

4

Q.

(Nods head.)

02:13:46

5

A.

Text acquisition and accessible

02:13:51

6

presentation is kind of what they mean.

7

little lost on --

8
9
10

Q.

02:13:55
02:13:59

As used in this paragraph in page -- in

02:14:01

Exhibit 58, what did you mean by "text

02:14:04

acquisition"?

02:14:06

MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

I'm a

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

02:14:13
THE WITNESS:

13

02:14:13

I'm rereading the

02:14:26

14

paragraph.

02:14:28

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:14:28

16

Q.

Mh-hmm.

02:14:28

17

A.

I'm still trying to figure out the

02:15:12

18

context here of all of this.
I think I was talking primarily about

19

02:15:13
02:15:26

20

scanning the page in order to potentially getting

02:15:28

21

the content directly from the Internet, which in

02:15:31

22

this case I'd be probably thinking about

02:15:34

23

Bookshare.

02:15:36

24

Q.

25

And what did you mean in this context as

used on page 555 of Exhibit 58 of "accessible

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196
1

presentations"?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

02:15:44
Objection.

Confusing and

vague.

02:15:45
02:15:46

THE WITNESS:

Well, I think this covers

02:15:49

5

territory that we've discussed before of how does

02:15:51

6

a person with a disability access an inaccessible

02:15:53

7

print document.

02:15:59

8

reads it aloud, or it can be made larger, or it

02:16:02

9

can be made Braille, or it can be made synthetic

02:16:05

10

speech.

02:16:10

11

those as well as the four examples given here.

02:16:12

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:16:17

4

13

Q.

One way is that a human being

And there are obviously other ones beyond

02:16:17

Mr. Fruchterman, this book, "Assistive

14

Could we turn to page 556 of Exhibit 58.

02:16:25

15

Technology for Visually Impaired and Blind

02:16:28

16

People," was published in 2008.

02:16:31

So do you recall approximately what year

17
18

you wrote Chapter 15?

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

02:16:39
Objection.

Confusing.

Argumentative.

02:16:43
02:16:45

THE WITNESS:

21

02:16:36

I would assume either in

02:16:47

22

2008 or in 2007.

02:16:48

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:16:50

24
25

Q.

Okay.

So turning to page 556, it says:

"Magnification is the

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197
1

traditional method for addressing

02:16:56

2

vision loss and access to text."

02:16:58

3

Is this still true today?

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

Objection.

02:17:00
Vague.

Confusing.

02:17:07
THE WITNESS:

6

02:17:05

Yes, 'cause it's described

02:17:11

So the fact that another

02:17:13

7

as a traditional method.

8

few years have gone by, it's still a traditional.

02:17:16

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:17:19

10

Q.

The next paragraph describes Braille as

02:17:19

11

a -- one of -- was probably the most significant

02:17:23

12

adaptive technology advance for the blind of the

02:17:26

13

1800s.

02:17:29
Is Braille still used by blind people

14
15

today?

02:17:33

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

Mischaracterizes the document.

18
19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
Vague.

But go ahead.

20
21
22
23

02:17:34
02:17:35
02:17:39

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:17:30

02:17:40
02:17:41

Skipping down another two paragraphs, it

says:

02:17:41
02:17:48

"These three alternative

02:17:49

24

techniques for accessing print,

02:17:50

25

magnification, tactile Braille and

02:17:52

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198
1

audible speech, are at the core of

02:17:55

2

almost all book and document

02:17:57

3

access technology for the visually

02:17:59

4

impaired."

02:18:01

5

So my question is are these still three

02:18:02

6

alternative techniques for accessing print by the

02:18:05

7

print-disabled?

02:18:09

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

These are three -- these

02:18:16
02:18:19

10

are still three alternate techniques used for

02:18:20

11

accessing print by the print-disabled, yes.

02:18:25

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:18:27

13

Q.

14

paragraphs.

15

the past -- and the transformations, I gather, is

02:18:38

16

talking about what precedes this paragraph.

02:18:46

17

Okay.

If we could now skip down two

02:18:27

It describes these transformations in

02:18:32

"These transformations in the

02:18:48

18

past have required human

02:18:49

19

intervention.

02:18:52

20

person reworks the document into

02:18:54

21

accessible form."

02:18:56

22

Generally a sighted

And it says here:

02:18:57

23

"The original approach was to

02:18:58

24

have the sighted person read aloud

02:18:59

25

to the visually impaired person, a

02:19:02

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199
1

technique still in wide use today.

02:19:04

2

The Perkins Brailler and Braille

02:19:06

3

printing presses are important

02:19:10

4

tools for professionals to use to

02:19:11

5

create Braille books.

02:19:16

6

human-narrated books are widely

02:19:17

7

available on audio cassettes."

02:19:20

And

We've replaced audio cassettes at this

8

02:19:23

point with technology, but the rest of it, are

02:19:25

10

these still document transformation methods in use

02:19:31

11

today?

02:19:33

9

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13
14

Objection.

02:19:34

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:19:34

All right.

And that -- and the ones

02:19:34

15

that I'm pointing to are having the sighted person

02:19:35

16

read aloud, the Perkins Brailler and a Braille

02:19:39

17

printing press.

02:19:42

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

All of these are still in

02:19:46
02:19:48

20

use today.

02:19:49

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:19:50

22
23

Q.

Now, the next paragraph, it says:

02:19:55

"Technology in use today has

02:19:56

24

greatly expanded the options

02:19:58

25

available for accessible reading

02:19:59

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200
1

and lessoned the need to have a

02:20:01

2

sighted person intervene in the

02:20:03

3

process.

02:20:04

4

transcription software, personal

02:20:06

5

Braille embossers, refreshable

02:20:08

6

electronic Braille displays for

02:20:11

7

audio.

We have computer

02:20:13

8

synthesized voices to speak aloud

02:20:15

9

digital text, also known as text

02:20:19

to speech or TTS."

02:20:21

10

We now have Braille

My question is, are these technologies

11

02:20:23

12

still in use today as nonhuman intervention

02:20:26

13

methods for the print-disabled to access printed

02:20:30

14

material?

02:20:36
MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

19
20

Vague and

confusing.
Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:20:37
02:20:38

THE WITNESS:

17
18

Objection.

The next sentence says:
"With reading systems that

02:20:41
02:20:42
02:20:47
02:20:49

21

use optical character recognition,

02:20:50

22

or OCR, we can provide access to

02:20:52

23

Braille, audio and customized

02:20:56

24

visual displays directly from the

02:20:58

25

printed page."

02:21:00

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201
1

Why is this important?

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

02:21:01
Vague.

02:21:02

Because we want to turn

02:21:11

4

inaccessible print books into forms where disabled

02:21:13

5

people can access them using OCR.

02:21:16

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:21:21

Q.

8
9

Could we turn to page 557 of Exhibit 58.

02:21:21

At the bottom of page 50 -- 557 to the

7

02:21:34

top of 558 it says:

02:21:37

"Authors and publishers of

10

02:21:39

11

books are concerned about piracy

02:21:41

12

and worry about making books

02:21:43

13

easily available in electronic

02:21:45

14

form, although they rarely object

02:21:47

15

to access for people with

02:21:49

16

disabilities."

02:21:50

17

Do you believe this is still true?

02:21:51

18

MR. KAPLAN:

02:21:54

19

THE WITNESS:

20

23

Vague.

Yes.

02:22:10

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

21
22

Objection.

02:22:11

Mr. Fruchterman, could we turn to page

558.

02:22:23
02:22:25

A.

Yes.

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

MR. HUDIS:

02:22:27
We were there.
We were there.

02:22:29
Okay.

Thank

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202
1

you.
Q.

I would like to direct your attention to

02:22:39

the middle of the page, where it starts "however."

02:22:40

2
3

02:22:31

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

All right.

02:22:45
It says:

02:22:46

"However, the image cannot be

6

02:22:47

7

directly used to generate Braille

02:22:49

8

or synthetic voice output."

02:22:51

Why is that?

9

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

foundation.

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

Incomplete hypothetical.

THE WITNESS:

12

02:22:54

You need to convert the

02:22:55
02:22:56
02:23:04

13

inaccessible image into a text file in OCR.

02:23:05

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:23:14

Q.

15
16

Mr. Fruchterman, could you turn to page

560 of Exhibit 58.

02:23:26

This paragraph at the bottom of page 560

17

02:23:24

02:23:40

18

talks about the image processing steps of -- in

02:23:46

19

OCR.

02:23:49

20

and straightening the page, recognition of

02:23:55

21

specialty fine characteristics and recognition of

02:23:57

22

a character or glyph.

02:24:01

And it talks about despeckling, orienting

23

Are those the --

02:24:02

24

MR. KAPLAN:

02:24:05

25

You're talking about the

last full paragraph, not the last paragraph?

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203
MR. HUDIS:

1

Yeah.

Correct.

Excuse me.

02:24:07

2

You're right, Counsel, it's the last two

02:24:08

3

paragraphs.

02:24:11

4

THE WITNESS:

Two paragraphs.

02:24:12

5

MR. KAPLAN:

Both paragraphs.

02:24:13

6

MR. HUDIS:

02:24:14

Are those the steps in OCR technology?

02:24:15

8

MR. KAPLAN:

02:24:17

9

THE WITNESS:

7

Q.

Yeah.

Objection.

Vague.

Those are some steps in

02:24:20

10

OCR technology, yes.

02:24:22

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:24:22

12

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, could you turn to page

13

562 at the top.

14

typical types of OCR errors?

15

here are misrecs, nonrecs, drops and adds.

16

A.

And I'd like to know, are these
And what's described

I --

17

02:24:33
02:24:44
02:24:48
02:24:57

MR. KAPLAN:

18

02:24:30

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

I would say those are

02:24:58
02:24:58

19

common OCR errors.

02:24:59

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:25:03

21
22

Q.

What happens with these common OCR

errors are encountered?

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Q.

02:25:04
02:25:05

Objection.
I'll reask the question.

If any of these OCR errors are

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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1

encountered, what happens when the printed text is

02:25:12

2

converted to speech?

02:25:16

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Objection.

Vague.

Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

5

02:25:19
02:25:22

Depending on what the

02:25:29

6

error is, a person listening to the text might

02:25:30

7

hear something different in the word.

02:25:35

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:25:39

9

Q.

Could it be garbled text?

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

02:25:39
Vague.

Yeah, it really depends on

I mean, humans listening to text, you

02:25:43
02:25:46

12

the error.

13

know, will they notice an error?

14

how extreme it is.

15

turned into M, you know, you might hear it was a

02:26:00

16

case of modem times.

Person is going to say, Oh,

02:26:03

17

it's probably modern.

But 'cause that's -- that

02:26:08

18

was a common error.

It depends on

02:25:52

For example, if R and N get

02:25:55

02:26:12

It gets -- it's been less common in

19

02:25:47

02:26:13

20

recent years because "modem" isn't as common a

02:26:16

21

word now as it was once.

02:26:20

22

tune themselves for statistics in language.

02:26:25

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:26:28

24
25

Q.

And the OCR engines do

Mr. Fruchterman, could you please turn

to page 565 of Exhibit 58.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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205
What is the DAISY standard?

1
2

A.

02:26:50

The DAISY standard is a standard for

02:26:58

3

delivering accessible books to people with

02:27:01

4

disabilities.

02:27:05

5

Q.

Is that standard still in use today?

02:27:06

6

A.

It is.

02:27:11

7

Q.

By whom?

02:27:11

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

foundation.

Objection.

Vague.

02:27:14
02:27:14

THE WITNESS:

10

Lacks

The DAISY consortium is

02:27:17

11

essentially the leading libraries for people with

02:27:21

12

print-disabilities, and I believe almost all of

02:27:25

13

the DAISY members' libraries use the DAISY format

02:27:27

14

as part of their system of delivering accessible

02:27:32

15

books to their disabled patrons.

02:27:35

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:27:37

17

Q.

19

02:27:37

MR. KAPLAN:

18

Is this a proprietary format?

02:27:41

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.
MR. HUDIS:

20
21

Q.

I'll ask -- I'll reask the

question.

22

02:27:41

23
24
25

02:27:42
02:27:44

Is DAISY a proprietary format by the

participating libraries in the consortium?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
206
THE WITNESS:

1

My understanding is the

02:27:55

2

DAISY format is shared widely so that anyone can

02:27:57

3

use the standard and it is not proprietary to the

02:28:01

4

members.

02:28:04

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:28:04

6

Q.

7

PDF file?
Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

02:28:11
02:28:13

THE WITNESS:

10

02:28:04
02:28:07

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

Does this technology require use of a

It's the antithesis of a

02:28:14

11

PDF file.

02:28:16

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:28:19

13

Q.

Okay.

And why do you say that?

02:28:20

14

A.

Because PDFs are frequently not

02:28:22

15

accessible in the form that they present

02:28:25

16

themselves.

02:28:27

17

Q.

Without OCR technology?

02:28:28

18

A.

That's --

02:28:31

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

21

with PDFs.

22

Objection.

Vague.

That's one of the problems

BY MR. HUDIS:

23

Q.

Yes.

All right.

02:28:31
02:28:32
02:28:34
02:28:35

So does -- does the DAISY

02:28:36

24

technology require use of an OCR-processed PDF

02:28:38

25

file?

02:28:42

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207
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

Vague and

02:28:44

confusing.

02:28:45
THE WITNESS:

3
4

Objection.

No.

02:28:46

BY MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

6

02:28:49

What is required for use of DAISY

technology?

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

02:28:49
02:28:51

Objection.

Vague.

02:28:53

Well, the DAISY standard

is a format for digitally delivering typically

02:28:57
02:29:01

10

books, but could be other kinds of documents.

It

11

encompasses digital text, structure, audio, video,

02:29:08

12

pictures, tactile graphics.

02:29:12

02:29:05

13

And so a DAISY book might contain one or

02:29:17

14

all of those different elements without respect to

02:29:21

15

how it was created or how it will get used.

02:29:27

16

just a file format.

02:29:31

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:29:32

18

Q.

And -MR. KAPLAN:

19

It's

02:29:32
Can we, when you're done

02:29:33

20

with this line of questioning, take a very short

02:29:34

21

break?

02:29:37

22

MR. HUDIS:

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24
25

Yes.
Thank you.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And DAISY -- DAISY-processed texts can

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1

be delivered either by an audio DAISY book or a

02:29:44

2

full-text DAISY book, correct?

02:29:47

3

MR. KAPLAN:

4

Objection.

Vague and

incomplete hypothetical.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

02:29:52

book can be delivered.
MR. HUDIS:

7
8

10

Those are two ways a DAISY

02:29:58
02:30:02

That's it for this, so let's

take a break.

02:30:53
02:30:55

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

9

02:29:50

Going off the record

at 2:30.

02:30:56
02:30:56

11

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

02:31:01

12

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 59 and

02:38:28

13

60 were marked for identification.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

14

Going back on the

02:38:28
02:38:55

15

record at 2:38.

02:38:56

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:38:58

17

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, are you familiar with

02:39:04

18

the litigation titled "Authors Guild Versus

02:39:05

19

HathiTrust" which was litigated at the trial level

02:39:11

20

in New York Federal Court in Manhattan in 2011 and

02:39:13

21

2012?

02:39:18

22
23
24

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague and

argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

02:39:19
02:39:19

Yes.

25
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209
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:39:23

Okay.

What do you recall about who the

plaintiffs were in the HathiTrust litigation?

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Argumentative.

I remember it was
That was certainly

02:39:23
02:39:26
02:39:30
02:39:37

6

primarily the Authors Guild.

7

the public face.

8

foreign authors associations or publishing

02:39:44

9

associations.

02:39:48

I believe there were some

I'm a little confused, but I know

02:39:41

10

they were foreign entities.

11

specific authors.

12

primarily from reading the press coverage of the

02:39:56

13

case.

02:39:58

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:39:59

15
16

Q.

Probably a couple

02:39:38

That's my recollection

Do you remember what the plaintiffs'

legal claims were in the HathiTrust case?

17

MR. KAPLAN:

18

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

The case was always

02:39:51
02:39:54

02:40:00
02:40:01
02:40:04
02:40:08

19

described as one over allegations of copyright

02:40:10

20

infringement.

02:40:13

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:40:15

22
23
24
25

Q.

Do you remember who the defendants were

in the HathiTrust case?
A.

The HathiTrust is an assemblage of

research libraries that basically had a large book

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210
1
2

scanning repository that they were using.
Q.

02:40:32

Do you remember what legal defenses

02:40:34

3

those defendants asserted in the HathiTrust

02:40:36

4

litigation?

02:40:39

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Objection.

Vague.

Calls

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

7

02:40:40
02:40:41

As publicly reported, it

02:40:47

8

was primarily defenses of fair use and

02:40:49

9

Section 121.

02:40:59

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:41:03

10
11

Q.

And that's the Chafee Amendment?

02:41:03

12

A.

Yes.

02:41:06

13

Q.

What role, if any, did you play in the

02:41:11

14

HathiTrust litigation?

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

02:41:13
Objection.

Vague.

I provided declarations in

02:41:14
02:41:19

17

the case and an amicus brief.

02:41:20

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:41:22

19
20
21
22

Q.

Were you an expert witness for the

intervener, the National Federation for the Blind?
A.

I don't believe I met the definition of

"expert witness."

02:41:22
02:41:25
02:41:31
02:41:32

23

Q.

Why do you say that?

02:41:34

24

A.

Because I prepared a declaration, which

02:41:39

25

I've been told is different than being an expert

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211
1

witness.

2

understand that that's not the same thing.
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

THE WITNESS:

9

Thank you, Counsel, for

the legal advice.
Yes.

02:41:47
02:41:53
02:41:53
02:41:58

02:42:01

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:41:43

02:41:59

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

I think the issue is you

did not submit an expert report in that case.

5
6

But I'm not a lawyer, so -- but I

02:42:01

So, Mr. Fruchterman, is that true, what

02:42:01

10

Public.Resource's counsel said, that you did not

02:42:04

11

provide an expert's report in the HathiTrust case?

02:42:07

12

A.

That is my understanding, yes.

02:42:09

13

Q.

Okay.

02:42:12

14

Now, these questions all have to

do with the HathiTrust case.

02:42:14

Did you testify at any deposition?

15

02:42:16

16

A.

No.

02:42:17

17

Q.

Did you testify at any trial?

02:42:18

18

A.

No.

02:42:21

19

Q.

Did you submit any expert's reports?

02:42:23

20

A.

No.

02:42:25

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Okay.

24
25

Did you submit any declarations?

02:42:27
02:42:29

Do you know what a summary

judgment motion is?
MR. KAPLAN:

02:42:31
02:42:32

Objection.

Vague.

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212
THE WITNESS:

1

I have a decent idea as

02:42:41

2

someone who has been familiar with legal affairs

02:42:43

3

as a business and nonprofit executive.

02:42:47

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:42:49

Q.

5

Okay.

In that context, what's your

02:42:50

6

understanding of what a summary judgment motion

02:42:52

7

is?

02:42:54

8

A.

That rather than going to trial, the

02:42:56

9

plaintiffs or defendants create a motion to the

02:42:59

10

judge saying, Based on what you've seen, are we

02:43:02

11

done?

02:43:06

12

Q.

Did you submit any declarations in

02:43:09

13

support of a summary judgment motion in the

02:43:11

14

HathiTrust case?

02:43:14

15

A.

Yes.

02:43:15

16

Q.

Do you remember how the HathiTrust

02:43:19

17

Digital Library operated?

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

02:43:19
Vague.

I have a general

02:43:24
02:43:29

20

familiarity with how it operates, but I have not

02:43:31

21

studied its operation in detail.

02:43:34

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:43:36

23
24
25

Q.

What's the nature of your general

familiarity?
MR. KAPLAN:

02:43:36
02:43:38

Objection.

Vague.

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213
THE WITNESS:

1

That the HathiTrust

02:43:40

2

collection is made available to faculty, students

02:43:43

3

and staff of the member libraries.

02:43:46

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:43:52

5
6

Q.

for the HathiTrust Digital Library?
MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

And what was the source of the materials

foundation.

Vague.

Objection.

02:43:54
Lacks

Calls for speculation.

THE WITNESS:

9

02:43:53

I believe, based on press

02:43:58
02:43:58
02:44:02

10

reports, that the primary source is the Google

02:44:04

11

book scanning project.

02:44:07

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:44:08

13

Q.

And what -- what were the sources of

02:44:08

14

material that were scanned as part of the Google

02:44:14

15

scanning project for the HathiTrust library?

02:44:19

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

foundation.

Vague.

Objection.

Calls for speculation.

THE WITNESS:

18

Lacks

My general understanding,

02:44:22
02:44:23
02:44:26

19

it was the collection of the libraries of these

02:44:28

20

research universities.

02:44:32

21

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:44:39

22
23

Q.

you what's been marked Exhibits 59 and 60.

02:44:40
02:44:42

Do you recognize the documents?

24
25

Mr. Fruchterman, I placed in front of

A.

02:44:46

Yes.

02:44:51

I believe these -- first is my

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214
1

declaration, and then a supplemental

02:44:55

2

declaration -- declaration.

02:44:57

3

Q.

4

on page 7?

5

A.

Yes.

02:45:11

6

Q.

And the date of the signature is

02:45:12

7

So on Exhibit 59, is that your signature

02:45:00
02:45:02

June 28th, 2012?

02:45:13

8

A.

Yes.

02:45:15

9

Q.

And Exhibit 60 on page 4, is that your

02:45:17

10

signature?

11

A.

Yes.

02:45:29

12

Q.

And is your signature in Exhibit 60

02:45:31

13

02:45:20

dated July 17, 2012?

02:45:35

14

A.

Yes, it appears to be.

02:45:40

15

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman --

02:45:46

MR. KAPLAN:

02:45:47

16
17

is garbled in Exhibit 59.

18

MR. HUDIS:

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

Counsel, the docket number

It is.
Do you happen to know what

that is?

02:45:48
02:45:50
02:45:51
02:45:52

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

was submitted twice.

23

the HathiTrust litigation are Document Numbers 80

02:46:01

24

and 118.

02:46:06

25

THE WITNESS:

The problem is, the document

02:45:55

I believe the documents in

02:45:56

Looks like the exhibits

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215
1

aren't quite as garbled.

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

MR. HUDIS:

If you go to --

02:46:10

118.

02:46:15

I believe, but cannot

02:46:21

4

confirm, that Mr. Fruchterman's declaration was

02:46:23

5

submitted once without the attachments as Document

02:46:26

6

Number 80 and then again with the attachments as

02:46:30

7

Document Number 118.

02:46:34

Q.

8

Mr. Fruchterman, if you could tell me,

02:46:42

is there anything on pages 1 through 7 of

02:46:43

10

Exhibit 59 that you would change at this time.

02:46:47

11

Something that you believe is incorrect?

02:46:57

12

Something that you believe, upon further inquiry,

02:46:58

13

you would supplement?

02:47:01

14

change in this declaration?

9

15

MR. KAPLAN:

16

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. HUDIS:

18

Is there anything you would

02:47:04

Objection.

Vague.

I will read it.

02:47:07
So ...

That's why I wanted to do it

off the record.

02:47:13
02:47:15
02:47:17

19

Can we go off the record?

02:47:20

20

MR. KAPLAN:

02:47:22

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

No.

No.

You want to burn the time

up?

02:47:23
02:47:24

23

MR. KAPLAN:

It's your question.

02:47:25

24

MR. HUDIS:

That is my question.

02:47:26

25

THE WITNESS:

My first reaction -- and I

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216
1

will continue as I read the document, though -- is

02:48:21

2

that in the facts relied upon, these are dated

02:48:23

3

figures.

02:48:27

4

had or how many members we had, I would update it

02:48:29

5

to a current number because this is a few years

02:48:32

6

old.

02:48:35

7

would -- I would change.

So that's my first change of things that I

10

02:49:14

call these numbers to the left here in the

02:49:15

declaration?

02:49:17

11

MR. HUDIS:

12

THE WITNESS:

13

02:48:37

At Number 16, I guess -- what would you

8
9

And so if I was saying how many books we

Mh-hmm.
Item 16?

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:49:17
02:49:19
02:49:19

14

Q.

Paragraph.

02:49:19

15

A.

Paragraph 16.

02:49:20

In paragraph 16, at that time, it was

02:49:21

16
17

close to 200 publishers.

18

publishers, so I would update the number.
In paragraph 23, we cite average numbers

19
20

of cost per book.

21

dated.

22

Now it's over 500

I think these numbers are

They're going to be higher now.
In paragraph 28, I talk about image

02:49:23
02:49:27
02:50:25
02:50:27
02:50:29
02:51:15

23

descriptions, K-12 textbooks in highest demand.

02:51:19

24

We actually -- I think that at this point in time,

02:51:25

25

we probably devote less towards image descriptions

02:51:34

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1

than we did at the time of this declaration three

02:51:38

2

years ago.

02:51:40

That was in paragraph 28.
Okay.

3
4

declaration.

5

That's the end of that

update or change.

6

Q.

So those are the items I would

Okay.

02:52:04
02:52:05
02:52:08

So of the items that you mention

02:52:10

7

that you want to update, I'd like to talk about

02:52:12

8

paragraph 23 on page 5 of Exhibit 59.

02:52:20

You said that today, in contrast to when

9

02:52:26

10

you created this declaration in 2002 -- 2012, it

02:52:32

11

would cost more per book to make it accessible to

02:52:37

12

the print-disabled.

02:52:42

13

A.

My question is why?

So this paragraph cites two different

02:52:47

One is an average cost across the books

02:52:50

14

figures.

15

that we're scanning.

I believe that it's going to

02:52:54

16

cost more both because costs have gone up per unit

02:52:58

17

of effort and because the books that we're

02:53:01

18

converting on average are more complex than they

02:53:04

19

were three years ago.

02:53:07

20

complexity of book, the greater the cost.

21

And so because the greater

So I wouldn't stand behind this current

02:53:10
02:53:12

22

number of $40 a book because I'm quite certain

02:53:14

23

it's higher.

02:53:18

24

unless I inquire of my team, but that's the

02:53:20

25

impression I've gotten from that.

02:53:23

I don't know exactly how much higher

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218
1
2

Q.

increases in cost.

02:53:25

One was more complex books.

02:53:27

Is the first one labor costs?

3
4

Well, so you cited two possible

A.

02:53:30

The cost of our contractor to do a given

02:53:31

5

amount of work costs more today than it did three

02:53:34

6

years ago.

02:53:37

7

Q.

So it's outside contractor work?

02:53:37

8

A.

Yeah.

02:53:40

9
10
11
12

Most of our paid costs are from

outside contractors.
Q.

02:53:45

I thought it was members who scan books

for Bookshare.
A.

02:53:46
02:53:50

At the origin of Bookshare, it was

13

mainly members scanning for each other.

14

Department of Education funding, we're required to

02:54:01

15

deliver high-quality books to students.

02:54:05

16

actually pay outsourcers to proofread the books.

02:54:07

17

And that's a significant expense.

02:54:12

18

Q.

With our

02:53:55

We

So excuse my rudeness, Mr. Fruchterman.

02:53:58

02:54:17

19

I cut off your answer on why it would cost more

02:54:19

20

than $40 per book.

02:54:22

21

the $400 per book on the next page.

02:54:26

Is there anything you would change about

22
23

I did not let you talk about

that cost?

02:54:32
02:54:34

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Other than our costs per

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1

unit of work have gone up from our outsourcers and

02:54:43

2

it may be that our textbooks are getting more

02:54:47

3

complicated.

02:54:52

4

probably has changed.

5

$400 a book, but I would have to inquire since

02:55:01

6

this is a dated declaration.

02:55:05

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:55:07

8
9
10

Q.

So I'm not certain.

That number

It's probably not less than

Mr. Fruchterman, if you could turn to

02:54:57

02:55:13

page 6, paragraph 25, of your declaration of

02:55:14

Exhibit 59.

It says:

02:55:16

"Bookshare divides books into

02:55:22

11
12

six levels based upon their

02:55:25

13

complexity."

02:55:26

Is this -- does Bookshare use these

14
15

levels of complexity today?

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

18

Objection.

02:55:28
02:55:34

Vague.

Yes.

02:55:37
02:55:38

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:55:39

19

Q.

In what way?

02:55:39

20

A.

Primarily as a --

02:55:46

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Primarily as a cost and

02:55:47
02:55:48

23

management tool for our outsourcers.

02:55:52

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:55:57

25

Q.

So as I read paragraphs 25 and 26, I

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1

would like to know if this statement is true:

2

the complexity of the books you are scanning

02:56:07

3

increases, it costs more to scan the book and make

02:56:10

4

it accessible to those with print disabilities.

02:56:16

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Counsel, is this a

MR. HUDIS:

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

MR. HUDIS:

02:56:20

No.

02:56:23

-- or 26?
No.

02:56:23

It's a summary, and I

want to know if he agrees with it.
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

my confusion.

13

Okay.

I'm sorry.

That was

Do you want to try that again

MR. HUDIS:

15

MR. KAPLAN:

18

I do.

02:56:29

02:56:31

-- I can state my

objections?
MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:56:28

02:56:31

14

17

02:56:25
02:56:25

and --

16

02:56:04

02:56:20

statement in paragraph 25 --

7

10

As

02:56:32
02:56:34

Sure.

02:56:34

Based upon what you've written here in

02:56:35

19

paragraphs 25 and 26, is it true that as the

02:56:37

20

complexity of the scanned material increases, it

02:56:41

21

costs more to scan the book and make it accessible

02:56:45

22

to those with print disabilities?

02:56:49

23
24
25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Incomplete hypothetical.
Go ahead.

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221
THE WITNESS:

1

It costs more to proofread

2

the book.

3

proofread, yes.

But scanning, the complexity of

02:57:08

4

the page doesn't change the cost to scan a page.

02:57:13

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:57:20

6

Q.

And so if by "scan" you mean scan and

02:57:01

Mr. Fruchterman, you go into great

02:57:03

02:57:25

7

detail about how Bookshare operated, at least in

02:57:26

8

2012, in paragraphs 12 through the 29.

02:57:32

My question, why was there no discussion

9

02:57:46

10

in this declaration of Exhibit 59 of all the

02:57:49

11

security protocols Bookshare uses to prevent

02:57:52

12

unauthorized access by the sighted community to

02:57:56

13

Bookshare?

02:58:02
MR. KAPLAN:

14

Objection.

Privileged.

02:58:04

15

Calls for information protected by Rule 26 of the

02:58:09

16

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

02:58:12

17

think -- I think that I'm instructing the witness

02:58:19

18

not to answer.

02:58:21

19

answer.

21
22
23

I instruct the witness not to

02:58:23
THE WITNESS:

20

And I don't

I agree.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

02:58:33

All right.

And you're going to adhere

to Counsel's instruction?

24

A.

I am.

25

Q.

Okay.

02:58:26

02:58:33
02:58:34
02:58:37

Mr. Fruchterman, could you turn

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1

to page 2 of Exhibit 59.

2

9 -- are you there?
MR. KAPLAN:

4

THE WITNESS:

7

Almost.
Page 2.

02:58:58
Just the second

page.
You've got it rolled over.

That's why.
THE WITNESS:

9

MR. HUDIS:
MR. KAPLAN:

You're at the back.

02:59:05

You're at the back.
Which exhibit?

02:59:07

Oh, I'm

11

sorry.

I thought you meant the declaration.

12

sorry.

There's only one exhibit.

13

page 2.

15
16

Q.

I'm

Exhibit 59,

02:59:08
02:59:10
02:59:11
02:59:13

MR. HUDIS:

14

02:59:02
02:59:04

8

10

02:58:59
02:59:02

MR. HUDIS:

6

02:58:44
02:58:53

3

5

It says, on paragraph

Right.

Paragraph 9.

You say:
"Having reviewed

02:59:14
02:59:16
02:59:16

17

Daniel Clancy's description of

02:59:17

18

Google's Book" -- "of the Google

02:59:19

19

Books project and the HathiTrust

02:59:21

20

web site, it is my opinion that

02:59:23

21

the HathiTrust provides the best

02:59:25

22

opportunity for [sic] blind

02:59:27

23

students will ever have to access

02:59:28

24

a comprehensive digital library of

02:59:30

25

university collections."

02:59:34

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What's your recollection of Mr. Clancy's

1
2

description of the HathiTrust web site?

3

MR. KAPLAN:

4

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

02:59:35
02:59:38

Vague.

I don't think that's what

02:59:42
02:59:45

5

I said in this sentence.

02:59:46

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

02:59:48

7
8
9

Q.

Okay.

What did you say and what did you

mean in this sentence?
A.

02:59:49

I reviewed Dan Clancy's description of

10

Google Books project.

11

the HathiTrust web site.

12

things, I concluded this opinion.

13
14

Q.

Stop.

And I also reviewed

And based on those two

So my question is, what do you
Okay.

So what do you recall of your review of
the HathiTrust web site?

17

MR. KAPLAN:

18

THE WITNESS:

02:59:50
02:59:52
02:59:55
02:59:59

recall of -- I see what you're saying.

15
16

Okay.

02:59:48

03:00:01
03:00:04
03:00:10
03:00:12

Objection.

Vague.

I've looked at the

03:00:14
03:00:24

19

HathiTrust web site since this time, and so I'm

03:00:28

20

not sure I can distinguish between those.

03:00:30

But it discussed how they were going to

21

03:00:34

22

make available the full text of all of these works

03:00:37

23

to students who they provided access to.

03:00:43

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:00:51

25

Q.

Okay.

Do you recall what security

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measures the HathiTrust web site used to prevent

03:00:52

2

unauthorized access?

03:00:57

MR. KAPLAN:

3

Objection.

4

Calls for a legal conclusion.

5

Argumentative.

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

6

Vague.

Lacks

03:00:58
03:01:00
03:01:01

I believe that they used

03:01:05

7

authentication protocols common in the university

03:01:08

8

systems for authenticating faculty, staff and

03:01:11

9

students.

03:01:16

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:01:16

10
11

Q.

13

16

03:01:19

Objection.

Vague.

Lacks

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

14
15

03:01:17

MR. KAPLAN:

12

Was that a user name and password?

03:01:20
Yes.

Primarily.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:01:22
03:01:23

Mr. Fruchterman, let's now turn to

03:01:31

17

Exhibit 60, your supplemental declaration in the

03:01:32

18

HathiTrust litigation.

03:01:35

19

document and tell me if there's anything today you

03:01:44

20

would change about the document and what you wrote

03:01:46

21

here.

03:01:50

22
23
24
25

A.

Please read through the

As before, I would change numbers that

are based on the date of this declaration.
Oh, you're having problems with the
captioning again.

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MR. HUDIS:

1
2

4

MR. HUDIS:

Scrolling.

03:03:31

-- what was put down as your

answer.

03:03:34
03:03:34

(Record read by the reporter

6

03:03:41

as follows:

7

03:03:29
03:03:30

MR. KAPLAN:

ANSWER:

03:03:41
As before, I would

03:03:41

change numbers that are based on

03:03:41

the date of this declaration.)

03:03:41

8
9
10
11

I'm having problems

with --

3

5

No.

BY MR. HUDIS:
So which numbers would you change?

03:03:42

13

MR. KAPLAN:

03:03:44

14

THE WITNESS:

12

Q.

03:03:41

Objection.
Yeah.

Vague.

Paragraph 1 -- 2 --

03:03:45

15

sorry, paragraph 2, I cite how many users, how

03:03:48

16

many books, what our monthly capacity is.

03:03:52

17

update those to current figures.

03:03:58

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:03:59

I would

19

Q.

So it would be more?

03:03:59

20

A.

Yes.

03:04:01

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

23

That's it.

24
25

Description.
Sorry.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Are paragraphs 4 through 12 of

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1

Exhibit 60 still today an accurate description of

03:04:32

2

Bookshare's seven-point digital rights management

03:04:36

3

plan?

03:04:40

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

6
7
8
9

Objection.

Vague.

03:04:40

Yes.

03:04:47

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:04:49

If we could turn to paragraph 1, page 1,

of Exhibit 60.

You say:

03:04:50
03:04:53

"Based upon my experience

03:04:55

10

with the Bookshare online library

03:04:57

11

for people with print

03:04:59

12

disabilities, I believe that the

03:05:00

13

risk of online piracy or

03:05:02

14

unauthorized copying and

03:05:04

15

distribution of works made fully

03:05:05

16

available to individuals" --

03:05:07

17

"individuals with print

03:05:09

18

disabilities through the

03:05:12

19

HathiTrust is minimal."

03:05:13

20
21
22
23
24
25

What was the basis for this statement

03:05:17

that you made in paragraph 1?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

document speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS:

03:05:19
Confusing.

The

Vague.

My declaration explains

why, at length.

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1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:05:34

Why is there no discussion of the

03:05:34

3

HathiTrust security measures in this declaration

03:05:36

4

of Exhibit 60?

03:05:39

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

03:05:47
And I will instruct the witness not to

7

03:05:44

03:05:49

8

answer to the extent that it calls for privileged

03:05:50

9

communications or information protected by Rule 26

03:05:54

10

of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

03:05:58

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:06:01

12
13
14

Q.

adhere to counsel's instructions?
A.

17

Q.

20

First --

03:06:07

Yeah.

03:06:08
Okay.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:06:05

03:06:08

And can you -MR. KAPLAN:

03:06:01

03:06:07

BY MR. HUDIS:

18
19

Yes.
MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Mr. Fruchterman, first of all, will you

And can you answer my question without

03:06:09
03:06:10
03:06:10

21

revealing the substance of attorney-client

03:06:13

22

communications?

03:06:16

23

A.

No.

03:06:18

24

Q.

In making the statement "I believe that

03:06:25

the risk of online piracy or unauthorized copying

03:06:29

25

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and distribution of works made fully available to

03:06:33

2

individuals with print disabilities through the

03:06:35

3

HathiTrust is minimal," did you review the

03:06:39

4

security measures on the HathiTrust web site?

03:06:42

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

03:06:46

Not beyond previously

03:06:50

7

discussed.

03:06:52

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:06:55

9
10

Q.

outcome was in the HathiTrust litigation?
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

Mr. Fruchterman, do you recall what the

for a legal conclusion.

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

18

Vague.

03:07:13
Calls

Lacks foundation.
I do.
I'm sorry.

THE WITNESS:

Scratch the

All right.

03:07:18

03:07:20
03:07:22

I do.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:07:17

03:07:20

last objection.

16
17

Objection.

03:07:11

03:07:24
03:07:26

What -- and what was -- what

03:07:27

19

is your understanding of the outcome of the

03:07:28

20

HathiTrust litigation?

03:07:30

21

A.

That the motion for summary judgment by

03:07:34

22

the defendants was granted by the district court

03:07:38

23

judgment and upheld in an appellate court

03:07:46

24

decision.

03:07:51

25

Q.

And did you -- did you review the

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1
2

district court's opinion after it was issued?
A.

5
6

I did.

03:08:04

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 61 was

3
4

03:07:59

03:08:34

marked for identification.)
BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:08:34
03:08:40

Mr. Fruchterman, I'd like you to turn to

03:08:41

7

page 4 of what's now been marked as Exhibit 61.

03:08:45

8

It is the district court's opinion in the Authors

03:08:50

9

Guild, Inc. versus HathiTrust, et al., reported at

03:08:52

10

902 F.Supp.2d 445 and the date of the decision is

03:08:58

11

October 10, 2012.

03:09:02

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

Counsel, it's a Westlaw

printout.

03:09:04
03:09:06

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

MR. KAPLAN:

Yes.

03:09:07

Including Westlaw's

03:09:07

16

commentary and descriptions and additional

03:09:08

17

material that was not contained in the original

03:09:10

18

decision.

03:09:12
MR. HUDIS:

19
20
21

Q.

Noted.

Mr. Fruchterman, could you please turn

to page 4 of the document.

03:09:14
03:09:17
03:09:19

22

A.

Yes.

03:09:22

23

Q.

And it says, under "Background,"

03:09:23

24
25

"Defendants"-- are you with me?
A.

Yes.

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1

Q.

All right.

03:09:30

"Defendants have entered into

2

03:09:31

3

agreements with Google Inc. that

03:09:31

4

allow Google to create digital

03:09:33

5

copies of works in the

03:09:35

6

universities' libraries in

03:09:38

7

exchange for which Google provides

03:09:39

8

digital copies to defendants, the

03:09:41

9

mass digitization product or MDP."

03:09:44

Was that your understanding of how the

10
11

HathiTrust library worked?
MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

15
16

03:09:49

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.
Yes.

Generally.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

of Exhibit 61.

18

03:09:59
03:10:01

All right.

17

If we could turn to page 5

says:

19

03:09:53
03:09:56

THE WITNESS:

14

03:09:47

At the top left-hand corner, it

03:10:01
03:10:03
03:10:10

"After digitization, Google

03:10:10

20

retains a copy of the digital book

03:10:11

21

that is available through Google

03:10:13

22

Books, an online system through

03:10:14

23

which Google users can search the

03:10:17

24

content and view snippets of the

03:10:19

25

books.

03:10:21

Google also provides a

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1

digital copy of each scanned work

03:10:23

2

to the universities which includes

03:10:25

3

scanned image files of the pages

03:10:28

4

and a text file from the printed

03:10:29

5

work."

03:10:31

Was that also your understanding of how

6
7

the HathiTrust Digital Library worked?

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

03:10:32
03:10:34

Vague.

03:10:37

This describes much more

03:10:41

10

of what Google does than what the HathiTrust does.

03:10:42

11

It simply says that it gave them a copy.

03:10:45

12

doesn't actually describe what the HathiTrust does

03:10:48

13

with the copy.

03:10:52

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:10:52

15

Q.

It

So -- and then it says:

03:10:52

"After Google provides the

16

03:10:53

17

universities with digital copies

03:10:53

18

of their works, the universities

03:10:55

19

then contribute these digital

03:10:56

20

copies to the HathiTrust Digital

03:10:58

21

Library."

03:11:00

22

Is that your understanding --

03:11:01

23

MR. KAPLAN:

03:11:02

24
25

Objection.

Vague.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

-- of how the HathiTrust Digital Library

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worked?

03:11:07

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

THE WITNESS:

Still vague.

03:11:08

To the extent it's stated

03:11:09

4

here, yes.

03:11:10

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:11:11

6
7
8

Q.

And then skipping below Footnote 4, it

says:

03:11:11
03:11:14

"For works with known

03:11:15

authors, defendants use the works

03:11:16

10

within the HDL or HathiTrust

03:11:18

11

Digital Library in three ways:

03:11:19

12

Full-text searches, preservation

03:11:22

13

and access for people with

03:11:23

14

certified print disabilities.

15

full-text search capabilities

03:11:27

16

allow users to search for

03:11:29

17

particular terms" -- "a particular

03:11:31

18

term across all the works within

03:11:34

19

the HathiTrust Digital Library.

03:11:35

20

For works that are not in the

03:11:37

21

public domain or for which the

03:11:39

22

copyright owner has not authorized

03:11:41

23

use, the full-text search

03:11:43

24

indicates only page numbers on

03:11:45

25

which a particular term is found

03:11:46

9

The

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1

and the number of times the term

03:11:48

2

appears on each page."

03:11:50

Was that your understanding of how the

3
4

HathiTrust Digital Library worked?
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Objection.

03:11:53
Vague and

03:11:56

confusing.

03:11:56
THE WITNESS:

7

03:11:52

This states my

03:11:59

8

understanding about how some of the Hathi digital

03:12:00

9

trust works.

03:12:10

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:12:10

10
11

Q.

All right.

At the bottom of page 5,

03:12:10

12

starting at the bottom of the left-hand column and

03:12:11

13

going to the top of the right-hand column, it

03:12:14

14

says:

03:12:15
""Since the digital text in

15
16

the HDL or" --

17

MR. KAPLAN:

03:12:16

18

03:12:16
Wait.

Wait.

Okay.

I

found it.

03:12:18

19

THE WITNESS:

20

(Reporter interruption.)

21
22

Okay.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:12:17

03:12:19
03:12:19
03:12:19

"Since the digital texts in

03:12:19

23

the HathiTrust Digital Library

03:12:28

24

became available, print-disabled

03:12:31

25

students have had full access to the

03:12:33

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234
1

materials through a secure system

03:12:33

2

intended solely for students with

03:12:35

3

certified disabilities."

03:12:37

Was this also your understanding of how

4
5

the HathiTrust Digital Library worked?

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I didn't think they

03:12:40
03:12:41
03:12:45
03:12:48

8

excluded disabled faculty and staff from their

03:12:49

9

system.

03:12:54

I thought it was not just students, but

10

also faculty and staff.

03:12:56

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:12:57

12
13
14

Q.

But, otherwise, you would agree with

this statement?
A.

03:12:59

I think I'm less familiar with what the

15

secure system actually was.

16

had access, I did understand.

17

Q.

03:12:58

I -- but that they

03:13:10
03:13:12
03:13:14
03:13:17

Could you turn to page 15 of Exhibit 61.

18

Which brings me to my next question.

03:13:20
03:13:41

19

A.

Okay.

I'm on page 15.

20

Q.

I'm reading from the bottom of the

03:13:43

21

right-hand column.

03:13:47

22

It says:

03:13:49

23

"Defendants respond with a

03:13:49

24

declaration from the individual in

03:13:52

25

charge" --

03:13:53

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1

A.

Stop.

Stop.

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

03:13:55

Yep.

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

4

partial sentence there.

5

03:13:56
So it's the last

BY MR. HUDIS:

6

Q.

Yes.

All right.

03:13:59
03:14:00

So it says:

03:14:00

"Defendants respond with a

7

03:13:58

03:14:01

8

declaration from the individual in

03:14:03

9

charge of security for the works

03:14:05

10

in the HathiTrust Digital Library

03:14:07

11

who describes the security

03:14:10

12

measures in place" -- citing to

03:14:11

13

the Snavely declaration -- "and

03:14:14

14

notes that the libraries have been

03:14:16

15

certified as a trustworthy

03:14:17

16

depository by the Center for

03:14:19

17

Research Libraries."

03:14:22

18

Do you see that?

03:14:23
03:14:24

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

All right.

Is that your understanding

03:14:24

21

of how the security measures of the HathiTrust

03:14:26

22

Digital Library worked?

03:14:28

23
24
25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.
THE WITNESS:

03:14:31
03:14:32

It's consistent with my

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1

understanding of the access control portion of the

03:14:40

2

system, yes.

03:14:43

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:14:43

4

Q.

And that was -- the access control

03:14:44

5

portion of the system was a user name and password

03:14:46

6

access?

03:14:49

7

A.

Misstates testimony.
THE WITNESS:

10
11

03:14:50

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

Yes.
Objection.

Vague.

03:14:50

Lacks foundation.

03:14:52

Yes.

03:14:54

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:14:54

12

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I'm done with

13

Exhibit 61.

03:15:07

14

A.

Okay.

03:15:09

15

Q.

Do you know, Mr. Fruchterman, if the

03:15:11

03:15:06

16

plaintiffs appealed the trial court's decision in

03:15:13

17

the HathiTrust litigation?

03:15:16

18

A.

I do.

19

Q.

And what's your understanding?

20

03:15:19
Did

they -- did the plaintiffs appeal?

03:15:19
03:15:20

21

A.

They did.

03:15:23

22

Q.

Okay.

03:15:26

23
24
25

What role, if any, did you play

in the HathiTrust appeal?
A.

I filed an amicus brief with our chief

competitor/collaborator in the field.

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237
1

Q.

And who was that?

03:15:40

2

A.

Learning Ally.

03:15:41

3

Q.

Do you recall what the outcome was in

03:15:44

4
5

the HathiTrust appeal?
A.

03:15:46

That the appellate court sustained, for

03:15:52

6

the most part, the district court's decision to

03:15:55

7

grant a summary judgment.

03:15:57

8
9
10

Q.

in the HathiTrust litigation after it was issued?
A.

13
14

03:16:04
03:16:25

Q.

03:16:25

Mr. Fruchterman --

03:16:28

MR. KAPLAN:

03:16:28

It's getting confusing.

We're switching from Westlaw to Lexis?
MR. HUDIS:

18

THE WITNESS:

20

03:16:25

BY MR. HUDIS:

17

19

03:16:01

Yes.

marked for identification.)

15
16

03:15:58

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 62 was

11
12

Did you review the appeals court opinion

03:16:28

What can I tell you.

03:16:33

Okay.

03:16:35

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:16:43

So, Mr. Fruchterman, I now place in

03:16:44

21

front of you what's been marked as Exhibit 62.

It

22

is, as Counsel noted, the Lexis reported version

03:16:49

23

of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals decision in

03:16:53

24

Authors Guild versus HathiTrust reported at 755

03:16:58

25

F.3d 87.

03:17:01

The decision was issued on October 30,

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238
1

2013.
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3
4
5

Is that --

03:17:17

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:17:19

Mr. Fruchterman -- did I get something

wrong, Counsel?
I think it was decided on

June 10th, 2014.
MR. HUDIS:

9

MR. KAPLAN:
MR. HUDIS:

Oh, it says --

03:17:25

Argued October 30th, 2013.
Counsel, thank you.

11

right.

12

decision was issued on June 10, 2014.

13

So it was argued in October 2013.

03:17:30

And the

03:17:31

Thank you.

Q.

If you could turn to page 7 of

15

Exhibit 62.

16

the top of the right-hand column of page 7.

Mr. Fruchterman, I'm reading now from

Are you with me?
A.
Q.

Okay.

It says "second."

Yes.

19
20

03:17:35
03:17:40

14

18

03:17:28

All

Appreciate it.

17

03:17:23
03:17:24

8

10

03:17:19
03:17:21

MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

03:17:09

03:17:43
03:17:47
03:17:59
03:18:05
03:18:08

It says:

03:18:08

"Second, the HathiTrust

03:18:09

21

Digital Library allows member

03:18:10

22

libraries to provide patrons with

03:18:13

23

certified print disabilities

03:18:14

24

access to the full text of

03:18:16

25

copyrighted works.

03:18:17

A 'print

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disability' is any disability that

03:18:22

2

prevents a person from effectively

03:18:25

3

reading printed material.

03:18:26

4

Blindness is one example, but

03:18:28

5

print disabilities also include

03:18:30

6

those that prevent a person from

03:18:32

7

physically holding a book or

03:18:34

8

turning pages."

03:18:36

First, Mr. Fruchterman, do you agree

9

03:18:40

10

with the court's description of what a print

03:18:42

11

disability is?

03:18:44

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14
15
16

Objection.

Vague.

Yes, in general.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:18:47
03:18:55
03:18:58

Continuing, the court says:
"To use this service, a

03:18:58
03:18:59

17

patron must obtain certification

03:19:00

18

of his disability from a qualified

03:19:02

19

expert.

03:19:05

20

Digital Library, a print-disabled

03:19:06

21

user can obtain access to the

03:19:10

22

contents of works in the digital

03:19:11

23

library using adaptive

03:19:13

24

technologies such as software that

03:19:16

25

converts the text into spoken

03:19:17

Through the HathiTrust

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words or that magnifies the text.

03:19:19

2

Currently" -- I guess it means at

03:19:21

3

the time of this decision -- "the

03:19:25

4

University of Michigan's library

03:19:26

5

is the only HDL member that

03:19:28

6

permits such access, although

03:19:30

7

other member libraries intend to

03:19:31

8

provide it in the future."

03:19:34

9

With respect to individuals with print

03:19:35

10

disabilities, Mr. Fruchterman, do you agree with

03:19:37

11

the Court's description of how the HathiTrust

03:19:40

12

Digital Library worked?

03:19:43

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

Compound.

Vague.

Confusing.
THE WITNESS:

15

Objection.

03:19:46
03:19:47

Yes.

I think it's a

03:19:54

16

decent summary of my understanding of the state at

03:19:56

17

the time of the decision.

03:19:59

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:19:59

19
20
21

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, if you could now turn

to page 13 of Exhibit 62.
Now, starting towards the bottom of the

03:20:02
03:20:04
03:20:13

22

left-hand column and continuing to most of the

03:20:16

23

right-hand column of Exhibit 62, page 13, it

03:20:19

24

describes -- and the Court says:

03:20:27

25

"The record before us

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1

documents the extensive security

03:20:31

2

measures the libraries have

03:20:32

3

undertaken to safeguard against

03:20:33

4

the risk of a data breach."

03:20:35

5

And citing to the Wilkins' declaration.

03:20:40

6

As part of your work in the HathiTrust

03:20:42

7

litigation, did you ever review the Wilkins'

03:20:45

8

declaration?

03:20:48

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

Vague and

confusing.
THE WITNESS:

11
12

Objection.

03:20:50
No.

03:20:53

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:20:53

As part of your work in the HathiTrust

03:20:54

14

litigation, did you review the security controls

03:20:56

15

that the HathiTrust Digital Library employed?

03:20:59

13

Q.

03:20:49

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

18

21
22

Vague.

No.

03:21:07

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 63 was
marked for identification.)

03:21:43

Mr. Fruchterman, I have now marked a

23

document as Fruchterman Exhibit 63.

24

pages.

25

03:21:43
03:21:43

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:21:06
03:21:07

BY MR. HUDIS:

19
20

Objection.

document.

03:21:54

It's ten

03:21:56

I'd like to know if you recognize the

03:22:06

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242
1
2
3

A.

I recognize it as an article that I

believe I've read at least a portion of.
Q.

Now, it is entitled "The Internet

03:22:17
03:22:19
03:22:28

4

Archive's Open Library is violating authors'

03:22:31

5

copyrights," and it bears a date of July 10, 2013.

03:22:33

Mr. Fruchterman, did you provide any

6
7

comments to this article?

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

10

03:22:40

Objection.

Vague.

I will take a moment to

examine the comments.

03:22:42
03:22:46
03:22:47

I think it's a possibility that I

11

03:22:37

03:23:09

12

submitted a comment on this, but I didn't find it

03:23:11

13

on the initial inspection.

03:23:13

14

more carefully.

03:23:16

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:23:17

Maybe I need to reread

16

Q.

We're going to go over that.

03:23:17

17

A.

There we go.

03:23:19

18

Q.

Okay.

03:23:22

19

A.

So, yes.

03:23:22

20

Q.

All right.

21
22
23

I just found my comment.

So you recall Exhibit 63 as

being a blog post by Chris -MR. KAPLAN:

I'm going to ask the

witness to review the entire document.

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

THE WITNESS:

Sure.
Okay.

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MR. HUDIS:

2

MR. KAPLAN:

Thank you, Counsel.

03:23:40

For the sake of brevity and

03:24:18

3

to be clear, I just wanted to point out that

03:24:21

4

there's multiple comments.

03:24:23

5

MR. HUDIS:

6

THE WITNESS:

7

9

THE WITNESS:
MR. KAPLAN:

10

13

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18

Okay.

03:24:28
Sorry.

Thank you.

I don't want you to be

That wasn't my intention.
I know it wasn't.

03:24:29

03:24:31

03:24:38

Mr. Fruchterman, just let me know when

you're ready.
A.

03:24:28

03:24:32

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:24:25

03:24:30
MR. HUDIS:

16

Yes.

misled.

12

15

That I've written multiple

03:24:26
MR. HUDIS:

14

03:24:25

comments?

8

11

Right.

03:24:38
03:24:40

All right.

Read the rest of the

03:28:12

comments after my --

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

03:28:13
No.

03:28:14

I'm not going to ask -Advertisements after that.
All right.

Cool.

So the

03:28:14
03:28:16
03:28:18

23

question?

03:28:19

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:28:19

25

Q.

Yes.

Mr. Fruchterman, first of all, the

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244
1

author, Mr. Meadows, on page 2 refers to top of

03:28:23

2

the page -- third paragraph that starts with "and

03:28:36

3

some of those modern eBooks."

03:28:40

4

A.

Okay.

5

Q.

Page 2.

03:28:44

6

A.

Page 2.

03:28:45

7

Q.

Okay.

8

I'm -- on which page?

And the paragraph starting "and

some of those modern eBooks."

9

A.
Q.

All right.

03:28:50
He says:

03:28:50

"And some of those modern

11

03:28:46
03:28:47

Yeah.

10

03:28:42

03:28:51

12

eBooks for the print-disabled are

03:28:52

13

only available in protected DAISY

03:28:55

14

format."

03:28:57

Do you see that?

15

03:28:58

16

A.

Yes.

03:28:59

17

Q.

Would you describe the DAISY format as a

03:28:59

18

protected format?

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

03:29:03
Objection.

Vague.

There are DAISY format

03:29:05
03:29:10

21

books that have protections on them and those that

03:29:12

22

do not.

03:29:15

23

protection.

03:29:18

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:29:19

25

Q.

DAISY by itself does not require

Does the -- does the DAISY format come

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1

with protections, some of them?

03:29:25

2

A.

Some --

03:29:28

3

Q.

I'll reask the question.

03:29:28

Do some textual material available in

03:29:29

4
5

DAISY format come with access protections?
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

Lacks foundation.

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

8

Calls for speculation.

Some DAISY libraries use

03:29:34
03:29:37
03:29:38
03:29:43

digital rights management technical protection

03:29:47

10

mechanisms and some -- well, some -- we do, but I

03:29:51

11

would characterize our books as unprotected rather

03:29:58

12

than protected in the common understanding of what

03:30:01

13

"protected" means.

03:30:05

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:30:14

9

15

Q.

In the context of the question I'm going

03:30:15

16

to ask you next, I'd like you to refer to, on

03:30:16

17

page 2, the text that Mr. Meadows has called out

03:30:20

18

in tan -- in a tan background.

03:30:27

Do you see that?

19

03:30:32
03:30:33

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

All right.

22
23

And it says -- it's the

copyright page of X-COM PDF.
"No part of this book may be

03:30:34
03:30:36
03:30:39

24

reproduced or transmitted in any

03:30:41

25

form or by any means, electronic

03:30:43

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or mechanical, including

03:30:46

2

photocopying, recording or by any

03:30:47

3

information storage or retrieval

03:30:51

4

system without written permission

03:30:52

5

from Prima Publishing, except for

03:30:54

6

the inclusion of quotations in a

03:30:57

7

review.

03:31:00

8

characters mentioned in this book

03:31:01

9

are trademarks of their respective

03:31:03

companies."

03:31:05

10

All products and

Do you see that?

11

03:31:06

12

A.

Yes.

03:31:06

13

Q.

In your comment of July 12, 2013, at

03:31:07

14

8:06 p.m. on page 4 --

03:31:13

15

A.

Yes.

03:31:16

16

Q.

-- of Exhibit 63, you say:

03:31:16

17

"Restricted language in a

03:31:19

18

printed book like that quoted from

03:31:21

19

the copyright page of the X-COM is

03:31:23

20

a useless gesture."

03:31:26

What did you mean by that, that it was a

21
22
23
24
25

useless gesture?
A.

As a nonlawyer, I read it as asserting

powers that they don't have.
Q.

Why?

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A.

Because, for example, if I believed

03:31:41

2

them, I could not operate the Bookshare library on

03:31:44

3

that title.

03:31:48

4

Q.

And I think that's incorrect.

Mr. Fruchterman, I want to verify.

Did

03:31:55

5

you write this post of July 12, 2013, at 8:06 p.m.

03:31:57

6

on page 4 of Exhibit 63?

03:32:03

7

A.

I would agree that I wrote these posts.

03:32:09

8

Q.

And did you also write the post on

03:32:13

9
10

July 12, 2013, at 10:45 p.m., which spans pages 4

03:32:17

and 5 of Exhibit 63?

03:32:24

11

A.

Yes.

03:32:28

12

Q.

I just want to get some context here

03:32:35

13

just to make sure.
"SFWA" stands for the Science and

14
15
16
17
18
19

Fantasy Writers of America?
A.

I believe it's Science Fiction and

Fantasy Writers of America.
Q.

Okay.

And you say here at the bottom of

page 4 to the top of page 5:

03:32:38
03:32:39
03:32:42
03:32:44
03:32:49
03:32:50
03:32:52

20

"In the case of SFWA, we

03:32:55

21

committed ourselves to be against

03:32:58

22

digital piracy (already our

03:33:00

23

approach since we're an example of

03:33:05

24

legal copying without permission,

03:33:07

25

didn't want to support illegal

03:33:09

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248
1

copying without permission) and

03:33:11

2

increased respect for authors'

03:33:14

3

rights in the quality of their

03:33:16

4

accessible version of their work."

03:33:19

Mr. Fruchterman, what did you mean by

5
6

this sentence?

8
9

03:33:23

MR. KAPLAN:

7

03:33:22

Objection.

Vague.

03:33:26

Compound.

03:33:28
THE WITNESS:

Benetech signed an

03:33:32

10

agreement with SFWA that contained many of the

03:33:32

11

things I'm summarizing here.

03:33:35

12

agreement with the Science Fiction and Fantasy

03:33:38

13

Writers of America that could be summarized with

03:33:41

14

this sentence.

03:33:45

15

MR. HUDIS:

So, yes, we had an

So, Sebastian, we're going

16

to go into Mr. Fruchterman's expert's report.

17

think now would be a good time to take a break

03:34:05

18

before we dive into that.

03:34:08

19
20

MR. KAPLAN:

Okay.

I was wondering if

we were going to get there.

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

23

I

03:34:01
03:34:04

03:34:09
03:34:12

Now --

03:34:13
Going off the record

at 3:34 p.m.

03:34:14
03:34:14

24

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

03:34:17

25

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 64 was

03:34:17

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249
1

marked for identification.)

2

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

3

begins Tape No. 4 in the deposition of

03:48:23

4

James Fruchterman.

03:48:25

5

3:48.

03:48:30

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:48:31

7
8

Q.

Here begins -- here

03:34:17

We're back on the record at

Mr. Fruchterman, I place in front of you

what's been marked as Exhibit Fruchterman 64.

03:48:21

03:48:32
03:48:34

This is your expert's report?

9

03:48:38

10

A.

Yes.

03:48:41

11

Q.

And you've reviewed it before testifying

03:48:42

12

today?

13

A.

Correct.

03:48:47

14

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, I'd like you to turn to

03:48:48

15

03:48:47

page 1.

03:48:49

16

A.

Yes.

03:48:52

17

Q.

In the first paragraph at the top, it

03:48:52

18
19

says:

03:48:55
"As an expert in

03:48:55

20

accessibility of written materials

03:48:57

21

for people who have disabilities

03:48:58

22

that affect using standard print,

03:49:01

23

people who are print-disabled, I

03:49:04

24

have been retained by

03:49:09

25

Public.Resource.Org to evaluate

03:49:10

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250
1

the accessibility of certain

03:49:12

2

content that had been available on

03:49:15

3

the web site of the defendant in

03:49:17

4

this case."

03:49:20

Do you see that?

5

03:49:22
03:49:23

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

All right.

And as you use

03:49:23

8

"accessibility" in this report at the top of

03:49:26

9

page 1, that's consistent with the definition of

03:49:31

10

"accessible" or "access" that we discussed this

03:49:34

11

morning?

03:49:37

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14
15

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

03:49:40

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:49:38

03:49:43

And when you discuss people who are

03:49:43

16

print-disabled, that's consistent with the

03:49:48

17

definition of "print-disabled" that you testified

03:49:52

18

to this morning?

03:49:55

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

21
22

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

03:49:57

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

03:49:56

03:49:57
You are not offering your

03:50:01

23

expertise on any other topic related to this

03:50:04

24

litigation?

03:50:06

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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251
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3

Not in this report.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:50:13
03:50:14

Do you intend to offer any expert

03:50:16

4

opinions in this litigation other than that's

03:50:20

5

contained in your expert's report of Exhibit 64?

03:50:24

6

A.

MR. HUDIS:

7
8
9

Am I?

03:50:46
Note, Counsel has pointed to

the --

03:50:50
03:50:52

THE WITNESS:

10

MR. HUDIS:

11

To my expert report.

03:50:53

To his expert's report.

03:50:55

THE WITNESS:

I don't -- I believe that

03:50:59

12

I'm here to talk about the matter of accessibility

03:51:00

13

of this document, but --

03:51:03

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

THE WITNESS:

Sorry.
-- if I'm asked some other

03:51:04
03:51:05

16

question and it's okay with the Court, I will

03:51:07

17

answer any other question.

03:51:09

18

MR. KAPLAN:

I'm just pointing you to

03:51:11

19

the last sentence of the second full paragraph of

03:51:13

20

your expert report.

03:51:16

21

THE WITNESS:

"I reserve the right

03:51:16

22

to change or supplement this

03:51:17

23

report if additional evidence comes

03:51:19

24

to my attention and to prepare

03:51:20

25

demonstrative and/or exhibits to

03:51:22

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252
explain my opinions as appropriate."

1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:51:25
03:51:26

Other than the reservation in your

03:51:26

4

expert's report that you just read into the

03:51:28

5

record, do you intend to provide any other expert

03:51:31

6

opinions in this case other than what's in your

03:51:34

7

expert's report of Exhibit 64?

03:51:37

8

A.

I do not intend to.

03:51:40

9

Q.

So you're offering your opinion or

03:51:51

10

evaluation on the accessibility of certain content

03:51:54

11

that had been posted at one time on

03:51:57

12

Public.Resource's web site?

03:52:01

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

17

Vague and

compound.
Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:52:09
03:52:10

THE WITNESS:

15
16

Objection.

Your evaluation on the accessibility of

03:52:11
03:52:11
03:52:14

18

content that had been posted on the

03:52:17

19

Public.Resource's web site concerns the 1999

03:52:19

20

edition of the Standards for Educational and

03:52:22

21

Psychological Testing.

03:52:25

22

A.

Yes.

03:52:32

23

Q.

And if we refer to that document as "the

03:52:34

24
25

1999 standards," you'll understand what I mean?
A.

Yes.

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03:52:36
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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253
1

Q.

You are not offering your evaluations on

03:52:46

2

the Internet posting of any other content related

03:52:47

3

to this litigation, other than the 1999 standards?

03:52:50

4

A.

On two different web sites, yes.

03:52:57

5

Although, I will note that I searched for them on

03:53:12

6

other web sites.

03:53:14

7

Q.

So apart from the Public.Resource web

03:53:24

8

site and the Internet archive web site, you were

03:53:26

9

not offering your evaluations on the Internet

03:53:28

10

posting of the 1999 standards to any other web

03:53:31

11

site?

03:53:34

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I didn't find them on any

03:53:37
03:53:41

14

other web site.

03:53:42

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:53:43

16
17

Q.

That's not what I asked, though.

03:53:43

So what I asked was you are not offering

03:53:48

18

your evaluations on the Internet posting of the

03:53:51

19

1999 standards to any other web site besides

03:53:53

20

Public.Resource's web site and the Internet

03:53:55

21

Archive web site?

03:53:58

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Yes, I am offering my

03:54:00
03:54:02

24

evaluation on the availability of the 1999

03:54:05

25

standards on other web sites where I did not find

03:54:08

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254
1

them.

03:54:11

2

(Reporter clarification.)

03:54:15

3

THE WITNESS:

03:54:16

4

MR. HUDIS:

5
6

Q.

1999.

03:54:17

Mr. Fruchterman, your entire

03:54:19

participation in this litigation is pro bono?
MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

1999.

legal conclusion.

Calls for a

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

9

Objection.

03:54:21
03:54:24
03:54:25

I am offering my time pro

03:54:31

10

bono, yes.

03:54:32

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:54:34

12
13

Q.

You are not receiving any compensation

for your participation in this litigation?

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

THE WITNESS:

16
17

Objection.

Vague.

Not for my time, no.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:54:34
03:54:35
03:54:41
03:54:42
03:54:46

Are you receiving compensation for any

03:54:47

18

other purpose for your participation in this

03:54:49

19

litigation?

03:54:52

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I have not been offered

03:54:52
03:54:55

22

any compensation up till this point for any

03:54:56

23

expenses I have incurred with respect to this,

03:55:01

24

though, in theory, you sent me a check for $40,

03:55:03

25

but I didn't get it.

03:55:09

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255
1

MR. KAPLAN:

Because you sent it to us.

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

MR. KAPLAN:

I think.

03:55:17

4

MR. HUDIS:

Well, no.

03:55:18

5

MR. KAPLAN:

We actually --

03:55:16

Actually, I don't know.

6

Matt handled that part of it.

7

MR. HUDIS:

8

MR. KAPLAN:

We actually -- all

Yeah, that may have been

the other case.
THE WITNESS:

11

I don't know.

It said $40

on the thing that I was shown this morning.

13

so -- which I didn't remember seeing.
MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

And

Okay.

03:55:22
03:55:26

03:55:29
03:55:31
03:55:34
03:55:38

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:55:21

03:55:27

12

14

03:55:19
03:55:19

the counsel waived the expert fee for all experts.

9
10

Yeah.

03:55:13

03:55:40

Whether for compensation or not,

03:55:43

17

Mr. Fruchterman, did you enter into any agreement

03:55:46

18

with Public.Resource in connection with your

03:55:49

19

participation in this litigation?

03:55:54

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

22
23

Vague.

Yes.

Q.

03:56:01
03:56:01

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:56:01

Was it a written agreement?

03:56:05

MR. KAPLAN:

24
25

Objection.

03:56:07

Objection.

Argumentative

and vague.

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256
1

THE WITNESS:

2

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

03:56:11

Counsel, just noted, we have

3

never been provided with that agreement.

4

didn't think that it was necessary to ask for it

03:56:19

5

by way of subpoena since that's part of what's

03:56:21

6

required under Federal Rules 26.

03:56:24

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:56:47

8

Q.

03:56:49
03:56:49

MR. KAPLAN:

16

MR. KAPLAN:

I don't know

MR. HUDIS:

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

MR. HUDIS:

03:56:58
03:56:59

Part of the -Looking at

Rule 26(a)(2)(B)?

18

22

I'm sorry.

03:56:52
03:56:54

what you mean by that.
MR. HUDIS:

21

Well, it's part -- that's

what's part of the expert's report.

15

17

Where is that required

03:56:51
MR. HUDIS:

13
14

Mr. Fruchterman --

by --

11
12

03:56:13

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

We

03:56:12

03:57:02
03:57:02
03:57:04

(a)(2)(B).
I don't see it.
It's -- I believe it's the

last item.

03:57:09
03:57:10
03:57:11
03:57:12

MR. KAPLAN:

The statement of the

03:57:13

23

compensation to be paid for the study and

03:57:14

24

testimony in the case is what the rule says.

03:57:16

25

MR. HUDIS:

So anyway, Counsel, I just

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03:57:45

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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257
1

note that the agreement that Mr. Fruchterman has

03:57:47

2

just testified to was not produced.

03:57:49

3

should be.

4

Q.

We think it

03:57:53
Mr. Fruchterman, if you could turn to

5

page 3 of your expert's report.

6

"expert's report," just note for the record that I

03:58:02

7

am constantly referring to Exhibit 64 so I don't

03:58:05

8

have to constantly say it over and over again.

03:58:09

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Are you there?

And when I say

03:57:56

03:58:11
All right.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, you limited the

11

03:57:59

03:58:11
03:58:13

12

focus of your report to accessibility challenges

03:58:16

13

faced by totally blind people.

03:58:17

14

MR. KAPLAN:

03:58:25

15

MR. HUDIS:

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17
18

Is there a question?
Yes.
What is the question?

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

03:58:28
03:58:28
03:58:31

You limited the focus of your report to

03:58:32

19

accessibility challenges faced by totally blind

03:58:34

20

people.

03:58:37

21

A.

That sounds like a statement.

03:58:37

22

Q.

All right.

03:58:39

23

A.

Do you want to reframe it as a question?

03:58:40

24

Q.

Sure.

03:58:43

25

A.

Thank you.

Do you --

Mr. Fruchterman --

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258
Q.

1

-- did you limit the focus of your

03:58:43

2

report to accessibility challenges based -- faced

03:58:45

3

by totally blind people?

03:58:48

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

03:58:50

I believe that I talked

03:58:53

6

about a variety of people with different

03:58:55

7

disabilities and that I focused my report on the

03:58:57

8

needs of people with -- who are blind, because

03:59:01

9

they generally have the most severe needs.

03:59:04

But I

10

did discuss the needs of other people with print

03:59:07

11

disabilities.

03:59:09

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

03:59:10

Q.

13

Well, Mr. Fruchterman, you did not

03:59:10

14

consider print accessibilities -- accessibility

03:59:12

15

problems faced by the visually impaired.

03:59:15

A.

17
Q.

18
19

That sounds like a statement again.

03:59:19

Do you want to reframe it as a question.

16

03:59:21

All right.

03:59:24

Well, that's either a yes or

no.

03:59:26
Isn't it true, you did not consider

20

03:59:26

21

print accessibility problems faced by the visually

03:59:29

22

impaired?

03:59:32

23

A.

I believe I did consider the

03:59:36

24

accessibility problems of people who are visually

03:59:39

25

impaired.

03:59:43

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259
1
2
3
4

Q.

Can you find that in your expert's

report?
A.

03:59:45
Reading from the page that we're

referring to:

03:59:53
03:59:55

"The other groups of people

5

03:59:44

03:59:55

6

with print disabilities use

03:59:56

7

similar technologies to access

03:59:59

8

print, such as having it read

04:00:00

9

aloud, and experience similar

04:00:02

10

challenges as blind people.

04:00:07

11

the accessibility field, it is

04:00:08

12

generally understood that if you

04:00:10

13

make information accessible to a

04:00:11

14

blind person, it will probably

04:00:13

15

also meet the accessibility needs

04:00:15

16

of the great majority of people

04:00:17

17

with other print disabilities."

04:00:19

I can continue to search my report for

18
19

other references that I feel address that need.

22
23

04:00:21
04:00:23

Would you like me to do that?

20
21

In

Q.

04:00:25

Go ahead.

04:00:27

I don't think you'll find

them, but please go ahead.
A.

Okay.

On page 6:

04:00:28
04:00:58

24

"The unavailability of a

04:01:00

25

version of the 1999 standards that

04:01:02

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260
1

is accessible to people who are

04:01:04

2

blind or print-disabled is

04:01:05

3

problematic because the 1999

04:01:07

4

standards are important references

04:01:10

5

for those making tests that are

04:01:11

6

accessible to students who are

04:01:13

7

print-disabled as well as those

04:01:15

8

impacted by these tests."

04:01:17

9

Q.

And that's your -- that, in your view,

04:01:20

10

is a discussion of making print content available

04:01:29

11

to people with -- who are visually impaired?

04:01:35

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

04:01:43
THE WITNESS:

14

04:01:42

I include them in the

04:01:44

15

definition of people with print disabilities.

I

16

have an additional line I can read from this page.

04:01:48

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:01:50

04:01:45

18

Q.

Please.

04:01:51

19

A.

I will look for more references to print

04:01:52

20
21

disabilities, but as a starting point,
"This also means that it is

04:01:55
04:01:56

22

an important resource to any

04:01:58

23

students or other individuals with

04:01:59

24

print disabilities who want to

04:02:03

25

assess compliance with the 1999

04:02:04

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261
1

standards.

2

the 1999 standards means that some

04:02:08

3

of those who are most impacted,

04:02:11

4

people who are blind or

04:02:13

5

print-disabled, are unable to

04:02:15

6

independently access the 1999

04:02:16

7

standard."

04:02:18

8
9
10

Q.

The unavailability of

So in that -- in that passage that you

04:02:07

04:02:19

just read, you are equating people who are totally

04:02:23

blind with people who have print disabilities?

04:02:26

MR. KAPLAN:

Vague.

04:02:29

12

Misstates the document and the testimony.

04:02:31

13

Confusing.

04:02:35

11

THE WITNESS:

14

Objection.

My phrase is "people who

15

are blind or print-disabled."

16

including people who are print-disabled who aren't

04:02:41

17

blind, but I wasn't meaning to say that blind

04:02:44

18

people are not print-disabled.

04:02:47

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:02:49

20

Q.

That way I was

04:02:36

Just so we have a working context here,

04:02:37

04:02:49

21

so "print-disabled" can mean the following:

04:02:51

22

Totally blind?

04:02:55

23

A.

Correct.

04:02:57

24

Q.

Somebody who has low vision?

04:02:58

25

A.

Right.

04:03:00

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262
1

Q.

Somebody who is learning-disabled?

04:03:01

2

A.

Okay.

04:03:05

3

Q.

Someone who is brain-injured?

04:03:06

4

A.

Mh-hmm.

04:03:07

5

Q.

And someone who is physically disabled

04:03:08

6

so that the person cannot pick up text?
MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

Objection.

04:03:10

Vague and

misleading.

04:03:15

THE WITNESS:

9

04:03:14

That describes, I'd say,

04:03:16

10

over 95 percent of people with print disabilities,

04:03:17

11

but there are quite another -- other diagnoses

04:03:22

12

that would qualify as print disabilities beyond

04:03:23

13

those.

04:03:27

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:03:27

15

Q.

All right.

04:03:28

16

A.

For example, cortical blindness would be

04:03:28

17

an example of something where the eyes work fine,

04:03:30

18

but they still can't perceive.

04:03:32

19

Q.

All right.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, I turn

20

now back to page 3, the second paragraph.

21

want to know is why did you say:

22

What I

"I focused on the

04:03:34
04:03:36
04:03:40
04:03:42

23

accessibility challenges that

04:03:43

24

would be experienced by blind

04:03:44

25

people"?

04:03:46

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263
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

answered.

4

I don't believe he's

answered the question.
MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

Asked and

Vague, confusing.
MR. HUDIS:

3

Objection.

04:03:49
04:03:53
04:03:53

That's your opinion,

Counsel.

04:03:54
04:03:55

THE WITNESS:

7

04:03:49

So the question, why did I

04:03:56

8

focus on that?

04:03:59

9

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:04:00

10

Q.

Yes.

04:04:01

11

A.

I think from our extensive discussion

04:04:04

12

today, that taking an inaccessible print document

04:04:11

13

and turning it into text is a fundamental element

04:04:15

14

of accessibility.

04:04:19

15

A person with a physical disability who

04:04:22

16

cannot turn a page can greatly benefit from having

04:04:25

17

a digital copy of that book so that they can, for

04:04:32

18

example, use electronic controls to turn the page.

04:04:36

19

So when I say that I focused on the

04:04:40

20

needs of blind people, is if you solve the needs

04:04:43

21

of blind people, you solve the needs of every

04:04:46

22

other one of the categories of print-disabled

04:04:49

23

persons that are in that definition.

04:04:52

24
25

Please.

And I note that I haven't

actually gone through the rest of the report to

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264
1

look for more examples of this.

2

more.

3

There may be

spend that time.

But I'll let you manage the time of how I

04:05:06
04:05:08
04:05:13

4

Q.

Thank you, Mr. Fruchterman.

04:05:14

5

A.

Certainly.

04:05:15

6

Q.

All right.

Now, looking at page 3, at

04:05:16

7

the bottom, it's the third full paragraph, which

04:05:20

8

also spans to page 4, you say:

04:05:23

"The most common technology

9

04:05:28

10

used by a blind person for

04:05:29

11

accessibility is called a screen

04:05:31

12

reader."

04:05:34

First of all, what is a screen reader?

04:05:34

Quoting from the report, a screen reader

04:05:41

15

is a program that runs on a personal computer or a

04:05:43

16

smartphone that reads the information on the

04:05:45

17

screen aloud using a computer-synthesized voice.

04:05:48

13
A.

14

Q.

18
19
20

Is that also known as text to speech or

TTS?

04:05:56
04:05:58

A.

It utilizes text to speech as the most

04:05:59

21

common way of outputting information from a screen

04:06:04

22

reader.

04:06:06

23

Q.

In your report, did you consider the

04:06:08

24

accessibility of the 1999 standards through screen

04:06:10

25

magnification systems?

04:06:15

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265
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

04:06:23

I don't believe that I

04:07:44

3

discussed screen magnification in this report.

04:07:45

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:07:47

5

Q.

In your report, Mr. Fruchterman, did you

04:07:48

6

consider the accessibility of the 1999 standards

04:07:50

7

through a portable magnifier?

04:07:53

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

10
11

Objection.

Vague.

No, I did not.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:08:01
04:08:02
04:08:02

In your report, did you consider the

04:08:03

12

accessibility of the 1999 standards through a

04:08:04

13

video magnifier?

04:08:07

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

THE WITNESS:

16
17

Objection.

Vague.

No, I did not.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:08:13
04:08:14
04:08:15

In your report, did you consider the

04:08:16

18

accessibility of the 1999 standards through

04:08:17

19

closed-circuit television technology?

04:08:20

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

22
23

Objection.

Vague.

No, I did not.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

04:08:24
04:08:27
04:08:29

In your report, did you consider

04:08:30

24

the accessibility of the 1999 standards through

04:08:32

25

Braille display technology?

04:08:36

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266
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

3

Objection.

Vague.

I might have.

Yes, I did.

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:08:39
04:08:49
04:08:52

4

Q.

Where?

04:08:53

5

A.

On page 11, second sentence.

04:08:54

"Because the text is provided

6

04:08:58

7

in the standard format, such as

04:09:00

8

Microsoft Word, a blind person is

04:09:02

9

able to listen to the text or

04:09:03

10

access it using a digital Braille

04:09:05

11

device.

04:09:07

12

is also highly accessible to

04:09:11

13

people with other print

04:09:12

14

disabilities and the assistive

04:09:14

15

telling technology they use to

04:09:17

16

access print.

04:09:19

17

with low vision or dyslexia often

04:09:21

18

use a screen reader to read text

04:09:23

19

aloud."

04:09:25

20

Q.

This kind of text content

For example, people

Mr. Fruchterman, in your report, did you

04:09:31

21

consider the accessibility of the 1999 standards

04:09:32

22

through writing Braille?

04:09:34

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Objection.

Vague.

As phrased, that question

doesn't make sense to me.

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267
1

BY MR. HUDIS:

2

Q.

3

04:09:46

It's Braille technology using a slate

and stylus.

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

04:09:46
04:09:48

Objection.

Vague.

The question still doesn't

04:09:49
04:09:55

6

make any sense to me.

04:09:57

7

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:09:58

8
9
10

Q.

In your report, did you consider the

04:09:58

accessibility of the 1999 standards through a

04:10:01

Braille embosser?

04:10:05

11

MR. KAPLAN:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Yes, because you emboss

04:10:06
04:10:17

13

text by sending it -- basically, you create a

04:10:18

14

Braille document by sending text to the Braille

04:10:22

15

embosser, like a printer.

04:10:26

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:10:29

17

Q.

Text in what form?

Digital text?

18

A.

Yes.

04:10:31

19

Q.

And that would have to be OCR scanned

04:10:32

20

digital text or text recognized?

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22
23

Objection.

04:10:29

04:10:34
Compound.

Vague.

04:10:37
04:10:38

THE WITNESS:

Any text can be sent to a

04:10:38

24

Braille printer, much as any text can be sent to a

04:10:40

25

print printer.

04:10:44

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268
1
2
3

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:10:46

Did you consider the accessibility of

04:10:46

the 1999 standards through refreshable Braille?

04:10:47

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

04:10:52

Yes, when I use the phrase

04:10:54

6

"a digital Braille device," I was referring it --

04:10:55

7

basically to all types of digital Braille devices,

04:11:00

8

which would include an embosser, a note taker, a

04:11:03

9

Braille display.

04:11:07

It would not include slate and

10

stylus.

04:11:10

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:11:10

Mr. Fruchterman, now I'd like to know

04:11:14

13

your understanding of the following terms we've

04:11:16

14

used.

04:11:18

12

Q.

What is a screen magnification system?

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

A.

04:11:19

It is software that operates on top of a

04:11:25

PC or device to magnify what's on the screen.
Q.

04:11:30

And what is your understanding of a

04:11:34

portable magnifier?
A.

Most commonly, a magnifying glass.

04:11:36
But

there are other variations on the theme.
Q.

Can it include a video magnifier with a

handheld camera?

04:11:40
04:11:43
04:11:50
04:11:53

24

A.

It can.

04:11:55

25

Q.

And what's your understanding of what a

04:11:58

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1
2

video magnifier is?
A.

It would be a -- most commonly a device

04:12:01
04:12:07

3

with a camera and a monitor attached to it that

04:12:11

4

would magnify what's in the field of view of the

04:12:14

5

camera.

04:12:17

6
7

Q.

Is that also known as closed-circuit

television technology?

04:12:17
04:12:20

8

A.

That's another term for the same.

04:12:21

9

Q.

And you said that you considered the use

04:12:29

10

of Braille display technology.
What is your understanding of Braille

11
12

display technology?

04:12:31
04:12:33
04:12:35

13

A.

Do you want to know how it works?

04:12:41

14

Q.

No.

04:12:42

15

A.

It takes text and displays Braille to

16
17
18

the reader in a tactile form.
Q.

21

04:12:47
04:12:53

Mr. Fruchterman, I'm turning again now

04:13:07

to page 3 of your expert's report at the bottom.

04:13:08

Please describe generally how screen

19
20

Just your understanding.

reader technology works.
A.

Screen reader is a separate software

04:13:15
04:13:17
04:13:21

22

program that operates on top of the program that

04:13:25

23

the person is using at that moment and changes

04:13:33

24

generally the visual and auditory presentation of

04:13:38

25

that material, most commonly by reading what's on

04:13:43

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1

the screen aloud.

2

Q.

3

04:13:47

All right.

And is that example of text

to speech?

04:13:49
04:13:52

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Different users use their

04:13:54
04:13:56

6

screen reader with different forms of information.

04:13:58

7

The most common is text to speech.

04:14:04

8

example, a deaf/blind person uses a screen reader

04:14:06

9

with a Braille display, and the text is -- that's

04:14:11

10

on the screen is presented on the Braille display.

04:14:15

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:14:18

12
13

Q.

But, for

And, again, so that -- if it's a blind

and deaf person, it would be a tactile Braille?

04:14:26

15

sensible uses of Braille are tactile, though there

04:14:33

16

are sighted people who can read Braille visually,

04:14:38

17

so ...

04:14:42

18

Q.

19

All Braille is tactile.

04:14:22

Or at least all

14

A.

04:14:20

I'd like to know if you recognize these

as brand names of screen reader technology.

04:14:43
04:14:45

JAWS from Freedom Scientific?

20

04:14:48

21

A.

Yes.

04:14:50

22

Q.

Window-Eyes from GW Micro?

04:14:52

23

A.

Yes.

04:14:54

24

Q.

Okay.

25

Dolphin SuperNova from Dolphin

Computer Access?

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271
1

A.

Yes.

04:15:00

2

Q.

System Access from Serotek?

04:15:00

3

A.

Yes.

04:15:02

4

Q.

ZoomText from Ai Squared?

04:15:04

5

A.

ZoomText is a combination screen reader,

04:15:08

6

but most people think of it as a screen

04:15:10

7

magnification product.

04:15:13

8

Q.

And NVDA open source screen reader.

04:15:14

9

A.

Yes.

04:15:17

10

Q.

Would screen reader technology work with

04:15:21

11

an image-only PDF document?
MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

hypothetical.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

14

Objection.

04:15:24
04:15:29
04:15:31

Some do.

Some screeners

04:15:32

15

also have image magnification as well as screen

04:15:33

16

reading.

04:15:37

17

contrast by reversing the contrast or changing the

04:15:40

18

colors, so -- but that would be not the typical

04:15:43

19

use.

04:15:50

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:15:50

So you can make it big or change the

21

Q.

22

technology?
MR. KAPLAN:

23
24
25

What is the typical use of screen reader

04:15:51
04:15:53

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.

04:15:53
04:15:54

THE WITNESS:

Generally, to read what's

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1

on the screen aloud in words.

04:15:57

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:15:59

3

Q.

So text to speech?

04:15:59

4

A.

Yes.

04:16:00

5

Q.

So would screen reader technology for

04:16:01

6

text to speak -- text to speech work with an

04:16:04

7

image-only PDF document?

04:16:12

MR. KAPLAN:

8
9

hypothetical.

11
12

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

10

Objection.

04:16:17
No.

04:16:19

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:16:16

04:16:22

Mr. Fruchterman, please turn to page 4

13

of your report.

And I'm focusing in on the first

14

full paragraph of that page.

15

"For the purpose of this report."

The paragraph starts

04:16:33
04:16:35
04:16:40
04:16:46

Do you see that?

16

04:16:49

17

A.

Mh-hmm.

04:16:49

18

Q.

And the second sentence says:

04:16:50

19

"Based on the information the

04:16:51

20

screen reader can glean from the

04:16:52

21

pages displayed on the screen, can

04:16:55

22

a blind person locate the standard

04:16:57

23

and read it."

04:17:00

24
25

In this context, what did you mean by
"locate the standard"?

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273
1

A.

2

searches.

3

Q.

4

A.

8

Q.

Basically, read it aloud, generally,

04:17:29
04:17:31

Which, if the person was blind, could

04:17:37
04:17:39

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

04:17:40
04:17:41

THE WITNESS:

11

04:17:17
04:17:19

not do?

9
10

And in this context, what did you mean

would be the most common use.

7

04:17:07
04:17:10

by "read the standard"?

5
6

In this context, I was focusing on web

Well, if they located a

04:17:54

12

text version of the standard, they certainly could

04:17:56

13

read it aloud.

04:17:59

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:18:01

Q.

15
16
17

They'd need assistive technology to do

so?

04:18:02
04:18:05

A.

Yes.

But when -- when I use the term

04:18:08

18

"can a blind person read it," I'm presuming that

04:18:10

19

they're using technology to read it as opposed to

04:18:16

20

something else.

04:18:22

21
22

Q.

And when you say "use technology," what

did you mean?

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

04:18:23
04:18:25

Objection.
Okay.

Vague.

Taking a step back.

25
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1

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:18:31

2

Q.

Sure.

04:18:31

3

A.

When a blind person says "I've read a

04:18:31

4

book," they mean that they have ingested the

04:18:35

5

content of that book in a way that would be

04:18:38

6

similar to what a sighted person would do.

7

whether they did that in Braille or by listening

04:18:44

8

to it, or if they're low vision, seeing it

04:18:47

9

enlarged, they, in the common use of "I read that

04:18:49

10

book," a blind or vision-impaired person would

04:18:53

11

mean those things without describing the

04:18:56

12

technology that they happen to use to read that

04:18:59

13

book.

04:19:01

14
15
16

Q.

And

Mr. Fruchterman, I'm looking now at the

second full paragraph on page 4.
"The accessibility tasks I

04:18:40

04:19:14
04:19:16
04:19:19

17

tested were designed to assess

04:19:22

18

whether a blind user with basic

04:19:24

19

assistive technology skills could

04:19:26

20

perform the same kind of tasks one

04:19:28

21

might expect a user without a

04:19:30

22

disability to perform in accessing

04:19:32

23

a given standard without requiring

04:19:34

24

the intervention of a third

04:19:36

25

party."

04:19:37

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275
In the context of that sentence, what

1
2
3

did you mean by "assistive technology"?
A.

I would include all the different

04:19:38
04:19:41
04:19:59

4

technology that people, in this case blind users,

04:20:01

5

would use to -- to access information.

04:20:06

6
7

Q.

And that would include the technologies

we discussed previously?

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

10
11

04:20:19

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

All right.

04:20:21
04:20:23

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:20:17

04:20:23
All right.

So in the

04:20:27

12

context of a totally blind person, that would

04:20:28

13

include screen reader technology?

04:20:31

14

A.

Most commonly, yes.

04:20:35

15

Q.

But it would not include screen

04:20:37

16

magnification systems because that would be of no

04:20:38

17

use to a blind person?

04:20:42

18

A.

Many of the tasks that I examined, I was

04:20:46

19

also considering whether other people with print

04:20:50

20

disabilities could use that same content because,

04:20:53

21

as I've noted, people with low vision and dyslexia

04:20:56

22

often use screen readers as well.

04:21:01

My question was screen magnification

04:21:09

24

systems would not be of use to a blind person;

04:21:16

25

isn't that correct?

04:21:19

23

Q.

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276
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

hypothetical.

Objection.

Vague.

04:21:20
04:21:22

THE WITNESS:

3

Incomplete

A screen magnification

04:21:29

4

system would not be useful to a completely blind

04:21:32

5

person, that is correct.

04:21:35

6

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:21:36

7

Q.

All right.

And closed-circuit

04:21:36

8

television technology would not be of any use to a

04:21:38

9

completely blind person --

04:21:41

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11
12

Q.

04:21:43

-- that is also correct?
MR. KAPLAN:

14

THE WITNESS:

16

04:21:43

BY MR. HUDIS:

13

15

Objection.

Objection.

04:21:44
Vague.

Yes.

04:21:47

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:21:46

04:21:48

Mr. Fruchterman, at the bottom of page 4

04:22:09

17

of your report, what did you mean by "the

04:22:10

18

functional approach as a method of assessing

04:22:14

19

accessibility"?

04:22:19

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Can a person with a

04:22:22
04:22:26

22

disability functionally do tasks similar to those

04:22:29

23

of people who do not have a disability?

04:22:34

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:22:37

25

Q.

So that's to obtain the content, to read

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277
1

the content, and make structural use of the

04:22:40

2

document?

04:22:44
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Misstates testimony.
THE WITNESS:

5

Objection.

Confusing.

Vague.

04:22:46
04:22:48

I included do a full-text

04:22:51

6

search and find specific mentions of terms of

04:22:53

7

interest.

04:22:56

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:22:59

9

Q.

Now, you call the functional approach

04:22:59

10

"the most common method of assessing

04:23:01

11

accessibility."

04:23:07

Do you see that?

12

04:23:07

13

A.

Yes.

04:23:08

14

Q.

Are there any other methods of assessing

04:23:08

15

print accessibility?

16

MR. KAPLAN:

17

THE WITNESS:

04:23:11
Objection.

Vague.

04:23:12

There are, let's say,

04:23:17

18

attempts to say do these ten things, and your

04:23:23

19

document will be accessible.

04:23:28

20

have often fallen short of actually being usable

04:23:31

21

by disabled people.

04:23:35

22

And those approaches

So when implementing accessibility,

04:23:37

23

people usually focus on functional elements, like

04:23:40

24

can a person with a disability actually do this

04:23:45

25

task, as opposed to did you follow a checklist,

04:23:48

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278
1

which might end up in resulting in them not being

04:23:50

2

able to do that task.

04:23:53

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:23:55

Q.

4

Are there any other usable methods of

04:23:55

5

assessing print accessibility besides the

04:23:57

6

functional method?

04:24:01

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

Objection.
Yes.

Vague.

You could design a

04:24:03
04:24:08

completely automated tool that purported to

04:24:10

10

access -- to assess accessibility.

04:24:12

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:24:19

9

Q.

12
13

do?

04:24:19
04:24:21

MR. KAPLAN:

14
15

And what would such an automated tool

hypothetical.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

16

Objection.

04:24:24
04:24:26

It might show -- okay.

17

These tools do exist.

18

recognition system, they have errors.

19

up problems that aren't problems.

20

problems that are problems.

21

things that they weren't designed to see.

04:24:55

22

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:24:57

23
24
25

Q.

And like any pattern

04:24:31

They pick

They miss

And they don't see

Could you give me an example of such an

automated tool?
MR. KAPLAN:

04:24:36
04:24:44
04:24:48
04:24:51

04:24:57
04:25:00

Objection.

Argumentative.

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1

Vague.

04:25:03
THE WITNESS:

2

I would do a Google search

04:25:07

3

on "automated accessibility tools" and I would

04:25:08

4

find a bunch of them.

04:25:10

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:25:12

6
7

Q.

Are there any ones that you know of as

we sit here today?

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

04:25:12
04:25:15

Objection.

Vague.

I have certainly used them

04:25:16
04:25:16

10

in the past, and I find them through Google

04:25:17

11

searches.

04:25:21

12

the last year.

13

names because they're generally free on the

04:25:28

14

Internet.

04:25:31

15

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:25:31

16

Q.

And I've certainly -- I've used one in
I just don't memorize their brand

Can you recall any such automated tools

17

by their -- by its brand name?

18

MR. KAPLAN:

19

THE WITNESS:

04:25:25

04:25:31
04:25:34

Objection.

Vague.

I know early on, the

04:25:37
04:25:41

20

Center on Applied Special Technology, CAST, had an

04:25:43

21

elevated tool for assessing this, and it had a

04:25:48

22

name like Willie (phonetic) or Sammy (phonetic) or

04:25:51

23

something.

04:25:53

24

remember a brand name, CAST, who was the original

04:25:55

25

publisher of this accessibility tool.

04:26:00

But, no, I don't.

I know -- I can

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280
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:26:04

So other than automated tools and the

04:26:04

3

functional approach for assessing print

04:26:10

4

accessibility, can you name any other method as

04:26:12

5

you sit here now for assessing print

04:26:16

6

accessibility?

04:26:18

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Well, I would certainly

04:26:20
04:26:26

refer you to the W3C web content accessibility

04:26:28

10

guidelines that specify a standard for

04:26:34

11

assessing -- I would say that they primarily

04:26:35

12

follow a functional approach, but they also have a

04:26:39

13

proscriptive approach.

04:26:44

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:26:46

9

15

Q.

What is the proscriptive approach?

04:26:46

16

A.

I think I've kind of alluded to it

04:26:48

It's to follow a set of specifications

04:26:50

17

earlier.

18

without actually testing them.

19

04:26:53

An example of a proscriptive approach is

04:26:58

20

don't have flashing lights that go at a certain

04:27:00

21

number of hertz because it might trigger an

04:27:04

22

epileptic seizure.

04:27:07

23

example, that -- don't do this.

24

need to test this on an epileptic person to see if

04:27:12

25

it generates a seizure.

04:27:15

So that's something, for
And there's no

Just don't do this.

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281
1

Q.

So as I understand your definition of "a

04:27:18

2

proscription approach to assessing print

04:27:20

3

accessibility," it is a checklist of items without

04:27:25

4

testing them in context?

04:27:29

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

testimony.

8
9

Misstates

Vague.
THE WITNESS:

7

Objection.

04:27:34
Correct.

04:27:35

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:27:33

04:27:47

In your report, what distinction do you

04:27:47

10

make, Mr. Fruchterman, between one who is blind

04:27:49

11

and one who is otherwise print-disabled?

04:27:52

MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

Objection.

Argumentative.

Vague.

04:27:58
THE WITNESS:

14

04:27:56

I consider blind people to

04:28:02

15

be a subset of those people with print

04:28:03

16

disabilities.

04:28:05

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:28:09

18
19
20
21

Q.

In what way is a blind person a subset

of people with print disabilities?
A.

04:28:10
04:28:11

Let me rephrase that more carefully.

04:28:17

There are, let's say, a population of

04:28:24

22

people who have print disabilities, which I would

04:28:26

23

generally define functionally as having a

04:28:29

24

limitation when it comes to accessing print.

04:28:31

25

People who have a visual impairment that is

04:28:34

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282
1

commonly described as blindness are one of those

04:28:36

2

people.

04:28:38
But there are many people with other

3

04:28:40

4

print disabilities that do not meet the definition

04:28:42

5

of blindness as its commonly understood.

04:28:46

Q.

7

Mr. Fruchterman --

04:28:52

MR. KAPLAN:

6

Jonathan, we've been going

04:28:53

Do you want to take a break when

04:28:55

8

almost an hour.

9

you've reached the end of a line of questions?
MR. HUDIS:

10
11

time.
MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. KAPLAN:

Okay.

4:28 --

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

I guess I moved, huh?
You did, but people

do.
Right after saying that I

didn't move, I, of course -THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

21

04:29:17
04:29:19
04:29:20

THE WITNESS:

19

04:29:15
04:29:16

17

22

04:29:03

Go off the record at

THE WITNESS:

20

04:29:01

Okay.

16

18

04:28:59
04:29:01

12

15

Actually, now is a good

04:28:58

04:29:21
04:29:22

Going off the record

at 4:29.

04:29:24
04:29:25

23

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

04:29:27

24

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

04:37:43

25

We are back on record

at 4:37.

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283
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:37:49

Mr. Fruchterman, I'd like to create a

04:37:50

3

shorthand so that we can be efficient in the rest

04:37:52

4

of your testimony.

04:37:55

So referring back to your expert's

5
6

report at page 5, the first paragraph:
"I was asked to review the

7

04:37:58
04:38:03
04:38:05

8

accessibility of the 1999 edition of the

04:38:07

9

standards for people who are blind or

04:38:11

otherwise print-disabled."

04:38:12

10

I'm going to use the term "accessibility

11
12

review."

04:38:17
Can you -- can we use that as a

13

04:38:14

04:38:22

14

shorthand for the work you did in the report you

04:38:24

15

have given us?

04:38:31

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

20
21

Calls for

speculation.
Fine.

04:38:35

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

04:38:31
04:38:32

THE WITNESS:

18
19

Objection.

04:38:36
What tools did you use for your

accessibility review of the 1999 standards?

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

A variety of technological

04:38:39
04:38:43
04:38:47
04:38:49

24

tools, usually using a computer, assistive

04:38:52

25

technology, web browsers, commonly available

04:38:56

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284
1

software.

04:39:00

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:39:01

3

Q.

4

tools?

5

A.

Yes.

04:39:09

6

Q.

And was Window-Eyes one of those tools?

04:39:10

7

A.

Yes.

04:39:13

8

Q.

And you used those pieces of software on

04:39:17

9

Was the ABBYY FineReader one of those

04:39:02
04:39:09

a Windows-based PC?

04:39:19

10

A.

Yes.

04:39:22

11

Q.

As part of your accessibility review,

04:39:25

12

what did you use the ABBYY FineReader software

04:39:27

13

for?

04:39:31

14

MR. KAPLAN:

15

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

One of the two standards I

04:39:32
04:39:38

16

was examining was an image-based PDF, and I used

04:39:40

17

the ABBYY FineReader software to do optical

04:39:43

18

character recognition on the image-based PDF to

04:39:47

19

create a text version of the standard.

04:39:51

20

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:39:56

And when you use the term "the

04:39:56

22

standard," you're talking about the 1999

04:39:58

23

standards?

04:40:02

24

A.

Correct.

04:40:02

25

Q.

Do you remember what version of the

04:40:04

21

Q.

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285
1

ABBYY FineReader software you used?

04:40:07

2

A.

No.

But a recent one from this year.

3

Q.

Do you know how the price of the ABBYY

04:40:11
04:40:16

4

FineReader program that you use compares with

04:40:19

5

competitor OCR software programs on the market?

04:40:22

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I'm familiar that they

04:40:27
04:40:29

8

range from free or nearly free to many thousands

04:40:31

9

of dollars.

04:40:37

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:40:38

10
11
12

Q.

And where would the ABBYY FineReader

program fall in that spectrum?

04:40:44

13

A.

I don't know.

14

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, in your report, you use

04:41:01

15

two different terms, and I'd like to know if there

04:41:03

16

is a distinction with a difference or a

04:41:05

17

distinction without a difference.

04:41:07

On page 8, the first full paragraph at

18
19

the bottom, you use the term "recognized text."

22

04:40:48

04:41:10
04:41:16

Do you see that?

20
21

I didn't buy it.

04:40:41

A.

04:41:22

As in the resulting word processor file,

04:41:28

a recognized text --

04:41:30

23

Q.

Yes.

04:41:32

24

A.

-- could then be read using a screen

04:41:32

25

reader?

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04:41:34

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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286
1

Q.

Yes.

04:41:35

2

A.

Okay.

04:41:35

3

Q.

And then on page 10 at the top, you use

04:41:37

4

the term "accessible text."

5

just before the picture.

6

A.

8

10

04:41:58
That's the end of the

question.
I wanted him to look at the

two different terms for reference.
THE WITNESS:

11

04:41:58
04:41:59

MR. HUDIS:

9

04:41:40
04:41:44

Accessible -MR. KAPLAN:

7

It's the sentence

04:42:00
04:42:02

I've looked at the two

04:42:04

12

terms.

04:42:05

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:42:05
Now, here's the question:

04:42:06

15

Do you make any distinction between "recognized

04:42:09

16

text" and "accessible text"?

04:42:11

14

Q.

All right.

17

MR. KAPLAN:

18

THE WITNESS:

19

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:42:13
04:42:14
04:42:14

20

Q.

What is the distinction?

04:42:14

21

A.

Recognized text is a subset of

04:42:16

22
23
24
25

accessible text.
Q.

So let's have these definitions one at a

time.

04:42:19
04:42:25
04:42:27

What is recognized text and what is

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287
1
2

accessible text?
A.

04:42:30

Recognized text is text that has been

04:42:33

3

created through a process using recognition.

04:42:35

4

Accessible text is digital text without regard to

04:42:44

5

its source production mechanism.

04:42:47

6

could be created digitally by typing it into a

04:42:53

7

word processor, and it would be accessible text

04:42:56

8

without it ever having been recognized.

04:42:59

9

Q.

For example, it

So recognized text, for example, would

04:43:11

10

be to use OCR technology on a PDF image-only

04:43:13

11

document?

04:43:17
MR. KAPLAN:

12
13

hypothetical.

Objection.

Vague.

04:43:19
04:43:21

THE WITNESS:

14

Incomplete

That would be one way to

04:43:24

15

produce recognized text.

04:43:25

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:43:28
Now, accessible text, an

04:43:28

18

example would be creating a Word document, but

04:43:30

19

that's not necessarily using recognition

04:43:33

20

technology?

04:43:36

17

21
22
23
24

Q.

All right.

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Incomplete hypothetical.
THE WITNESS:

There are many ways you

can create a Word document.

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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1

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:43:44

2

Q.

And using --

04:43:44

3

A.

And they would generally be accessible.

04:43:46

4

Q.

All right.

04:43:49

5

accessible text would be to use Microsoft Word?
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

So one way to create

hypothetical.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

8

Objection.

04:43:52
04:43:59
04:44:01

There are many ways to use

04:44:02

Microsoft Word, but typing into Microsoft Word

04:44:03

10

would be an example of a way to create accessible

04:44:07

11

text.

04:44:10

9

Copying, pasting from an Internet

12

04:44:10

13

document web page into a Word document would be

04:44:13

14

taking accessible text in one program, a web

04:44:16

15

browser, and putting it into a different program,

04:44:21

16

a web or processor.

04:44:23

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:44:25

18

Q.

And the distinction with -- you're

04:44:26

19

making with recognized text is you are taking text

04:44:27

20

that's in an image document, using technology to

04:44:29

21

recognize it and make it accessible?

04:44:33

MR. KAPLAN:

22
23
24
25

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

04:44:35
04:44:37

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

That's one way to

create recognized text.

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289
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:44:43

If you know, how commonly is the ABBYY

04:44:43

3

FineReader software used by the blind or visually

04:44:47

4

impaired to convert textual material to recognized

04:44:51

5

text?

04:44:53
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

04:44:54
THE WITNESS:

8

04:44:53

I think of it as one of

04:44:58

the top two commercial OCR products that are

04:44:59

10

frequently used in the production of recognized

04:45:04

11

text.

04:45:07

9

Many blind consumers have OCR products

12

04:45:10

13

that are built into assistive technology products.

04:45:14

14

Many of those license the ABBYY FineReader or

04:45:21

15

other leading commercial products.

04:45:24

16

technology is the same, but the product

04:45:28

17

presentation would be different.

04:45:30

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:45:31

19

Q.

So the

Referring to the top of page 5, why did

04:45:31

20

you also use the free online OCR service as part

04:45:35

21

of your accessibility review?

04:45:39

22

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

23

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

I just chose to use

04:45:46
04:45:50

24

another OCR engine.

And by doing a Google search

04:45:52

25

on OCR, I found a free online OCR, and I thought,

04:45:57

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290
1

Wow, let's see, let's see if it works as well on

04:46:02

2

that one.

04:46:04

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

4

Q.

Yeah, it does.

04:46:05

In the context of your accessibility

04:46:05

5

review, how did the OCR conversion process using

04:46:07

6

the free online OCR service compare with the

04:46:11

7

conversion process you used using the ABBYY

04:46:14

8

FineReader software?

04:46:17

MR. KAPLAN:

9
10

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.

04:46:20
THE WITNESS:

11

04:46:19

I visually inspected the

04:46:25

12

pages and didn't see a noticeable difference in

04:46:28

13

OCR accuracy.

04:46:31

14

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:46:34

15

Q.

16

accuracy"?

17

A.

And what is your definition of "OCR

04:46:37
Well, in this context, do I spot a bunch

18

of errors or not.

19

errors at all, actually.

20

Q.

And I didn't spot very many

Objection.

04:46:43
04:46:45
04:46:50

You did spot a few?
MR. KAPLAN:

21

04:46:34

04:46:53
Vague.

04:46:56

22

Confusing.

04:46:58

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:46:59

24

Q.

Did you spot any errors?

04:46:59

25

A.

I am sure I spotted at least one error

04:47:02

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
291
1

in the ABBYY FineReader, one which I looked at

04:47:08

2

more pages on.

04:47:12

3

significant number.

4
5

Q.

But it didn't seem like a

04:47:16

As part of your accessibility review,

what did you use the Window-Eyes software for?

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Window-Eyes is one of the

04:47:19
04:47:21
04:47:26
04:47:28

8

leading screen readers, and so I was confirming

04:47:30

9

that functional element of being able to do the

04:47:36

10

process and read the recognized text aloud.

04:47:41

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:47:44

12
13
14
15
16

Q.

Do you recall what version of

Window-Eyes software you used?
A.

No.

04:47:46

But it would have been a current

one from this year.
Q.

04:47:44

04:47:49
04:47:51

Do you know how the price of the

04:47:56

17

Window-Eyes program that you use compares with

04:47:59

18

competitor screen reader software programs on the

04:48:01

19

market?

04:48:04

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

I'm aware that it's free

04:48:06

22

to people who have Microsoft Office.

23

probably why I chose it.

04:48:10

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:48:20

25

Q.

That's

04:48:04

Is Window-Eyes sold as a stand-alone

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04:48:07

04:48:20

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
292
1

program?
MR. KAPLAN:

2
3

04:48:23
Objection.

Lacks

04:48:24

foundation.
THE WITNESS:

4

04:48:24
It historically has been.

04:48:28

5

But I had read of this offer through Microsoft,

04:48:29

6

buying it for all Microsoft Office users, and saw

04:48:34

7

that, well, I'll use the free one.

04:48:39

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:48:46

9
10

Q.

04:48:46

stand-alone product is for Window-Eyes?
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

Do you know what the price of the

Objection.

04:48:47

Vague.

04:48:53

Argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

13

04:48:55
I don't recall a current

14

price.

15

JAWS.

Hundreds of dollars as opposed to a

04:49:00

16

thousand dollars or more than a thousand dollars.

04:49:05

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:49:09

18

Q.

In the past, it was generally cheaper than

04:48:56

Generally, without going into minute

04:48:56

04:49:09

19

detail, what steps does the Window-Eyes program go

04:49:11

20

through to convert textual material into

04:49:16

21

synthesized speech?

04:49:19

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

04:49:20

So think of the

04:49:25

24

synthesized speech as a printer for words.

You

25

send a stream of words to it, and it says them

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
293
1

aloud, much like a printer puts them on a page.
So a screen reader has a bunch of

2

04:49:32
04:49:36

3

controls so the user can kind of say what they

04:49:43

4

want spoken, the stop speech, that's the most

04:49:48

5

important control.

04:49:55

6

of a document if that structure is available to

04:49:57

7

it.

04:49:59

It also analyzes the structure

Analyzes what's on the screen.
And so, you know, a screen reader will

8

04:50:04

tell you different things depending on whether

04:50:09

10

you're examining a Word document, a web page, an

04:50:11

11

Excel spreadsheet.

But the goal is through the

04:50:16

12

use of your -- generally, your keyboard as your

04:50:20

13

input mechanism to control things and listening,

04:50:24

14

you glean the information from the program and the

04:50:27

15

content in the program that you need to access the

04:50:32

16

information.

04:50:37

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:50:39

9

18

Q.

How commonly is Window-Eyes software

04:50:39

19

used by the blind or visually impaired to convert

04:50:43

20

textual material into synthesized speech?

04:50:46

21
22

A.

I think of it as the number two screen

reader.

04:50:49
04:50:53

23

Q.

Which is the number one?

04:50:53

24

A.

JAWS.

04:50:55

25

Q.

What other tools, if any, besides the

04:51:08

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294
1

ABBYY FineReader program, the free OCR service,

04:51:17

2

Window-Eyes and a Windows-based computer did you

04:51:25

3

use as part of your accessibility review?

04:51:29

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

Web browser.

04:51:34

Web search

The web sites of different

04:51:34

6

engines.

7

organizations.

04:51:59

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:51:59

04:51:52

9

Q.

And you listed them in your report?

04:51:59

10

A.

Yes.

04:52:01

11

I think that covers -- did I say

Microsoft Word?

04:52:37

12

Q.

You have now.

04:52:38

13

A.

Yeah.

04:52:39

14
15

Certainly those seem to be all

the significant ones that come to mind.
Q.

04:52:43

I just want to make sure that I have a

04:52:47

16

list of all the tools that you've used as part of

04:52:49

17

your accessibility review for this report.

04:52:51

18

going to list them --

So I'm

04:52:54

19

A.

Add one more?

04:52:55

20

Q.

Yes.

04:52:56

21

A.

Adobe Acrobat Reader.

04:52:57

22

Let me pause for a second.

04:53:10

23

Okay.

04:53:11

24
25

Q.

Continue.

So I'm going to list them, and I want to

make sure I have a complete list.

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04:53:14

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
295
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

MR. HUDIS:

3
4

yet.

Objection.

Vague.

I haven't asked a question

You like that.

Q.

04:53:16
04:53:18
04:53:19

So the tools that you used as part of

04:53:23

5

your accessibility review included the ABBYY

04:53:25

6

FineReader software?

04:53:28

7

A.

Mh-hmm.

04:53:30

8

Q.

The free OCR service?

04:53:30

MR. KAPLAN:

04:53:32

9
10

Okay.

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

12
13

Q.

04:53:35
04:53:36

Do you want to do it one at a time and

MR. KAPLAN:

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:53:37
04:53:39

That's how you started

doing it, but you're the questioner.

16
17

Vague.

say yes or no or --

14
15

Objection.

Are we doing it this way?

Okay.

Right.

I'm going to list the tools I believe

04:53:40
04:53:41
04:53:43
04:53:53

18

that you have used as part of your accessibility

04:53:54

19

review, Mr. Fruchterman, and I'd like to know at

04:53:57

20

the end of my list if I have mentioned them all.

04:54:00

21

The ABBYY FineReader software; the free

04:54:09

22

OCR service; the Window-Eyes screen reader

04:54:13

23

program; the third-party web sites mentioned in

04:54:16

24

your report, which is on page 5; a web browser;

04:54:21

25

web search engines; Microsoft Word; and Adobe

04:54:25

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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296
1

Acrobat Reader.

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

04:54:31
Objection.

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

04:54:34

I think my report also

04:54:35

4

mentions going to Amazon.com.

04:54:36

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:54:43

6

Q.

Anything else?

7

MR. KAPLAN:

8

THE WITNESS:

9
10
11

Objection.

Vague.

Public -- sorry.

04:54:44
Internet

04:54:53

Archive.

04:54:56

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:54:59

Q.

Any other tools?

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14

04:54:43

Objection.

04:54:59
Vague.

Not that I recollect.

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:55:05
04:55:08

Mr. Fruchterman, on pages 5 through 6 of

04:55:17

16

your report, it says you searched library catalogs

04:55:19

17

that serve the print-disabled and conducted an

04:55:21

18

online Google search to find electronic versions

04:55:24

19

of the 1999 standards; is that true?

04:55:26

15

20
21

Q.

04:55:00

MR. KAPLAN:

Are you summarizing or are

you quoting?

04:55:36

22

MR. HUDIS:

Summarizing.

23

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

24
25

Misstates the document.
THE WITNESS:

04:55:31

04:55:37
Vague.

Confusing.
Yes.

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04:55:38
04:55:39
04:55:41

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
297
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:55:41

What -- in this context, what did you

3

mean by an "electronic version"?

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

04:55:45
04:55:46

Vague.

A version that a person

04:55:49
04:55:57

6

could find and download, ideally, in a text

04:55:59

7

format.

04:56:08

8

the next best thing.

But an image-only format would have been

04:56:12

And then, I guess, the print version

9

04:56:23

10

would have been the third best thing.

And then I

04:56:24

11

did find a used version of the book available for

04:56:26

12

sale on Amazon.

04:56:28

13

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:56:31

14

Q.

All right.

So you did not find an

04:56:31

15

electronic version for download either in text

04:56:31

16

format or image format?

04:56:34

17

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

18

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

19
20
21

Vague.

04:56:38

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

04:56:36

04:56:38

You did find a print version of the 1999

standards for sale on Amazon.com?

04:56:39
04:56:41

22

A.

Correct.

04:56:48

23

Q.

Did you capture the Amazon.com web pages

04:56:48

24
25

showing the 1999 standards for sale on that site?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
298
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3

No.

04:56:56

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

04:56:57
Did you document the

04:57:00

4

availability of the 1999 standards for sale on

04:57:01

5

Amazon.com in some other way?

04:57:04

MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

10
11
12

04:57:07
04:57:08

THE WITNESS:

Not beyond noting it in my

04:57:11

report.

04:57:12

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:57:16

Q.

Did you document your searches for the

1999 standards online?
MR. KAPLAN:

13
14

Vague and

confusing.

8
9

Objection.

04:57:16
04:57:18

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

04:57:20
04:57:22

THE WITNESS:

No, I did not document

04:57:27

16

them beyond stating in my expert report that I

04:57:28

17

performed them.

04:57:31

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:57:33

15

19

Q.

Do you know the demand for the 1999

04:57:33

20

standards by persons who are blind or visually

04:57:37

21

impaired?

04:57:39

22

MR. KAPLAN:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

04:57:40

Not beyond the mentions by

04:57:47

24

a couple of the leading organizations in the field

04:57:50

25

that this is a relevant document in test

04:57:52

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299
1

preparation for people with disabilities.

04:57:55

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:57:57

3

Q.

Did you determine -- did you attempt to

04:57:58

4

determine the level of the demand for the 1999

04:58:00

5

standards by the -- by persons who are blind or

04:58:03

6

visually impaired?

04:58:05

7

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

8

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

Not beyond the sites at

04:58:07
04:58:14

the web sites that I mentioned and plus the fact

04:58:16

10

that it wasn't on any of the web sites was at

04:58:20

11

least some indication that -- I guess what would

04:58:23

12

you say -- there are many, many books that people

04:58:31

13

with disabilities desire that are not available in

04:58:34

14

accessible formats.

04:58:37

15

available in accessible format, that would have

04:58:40

16

been an indicator that someone had requested it or

04:58:44

17

that someone had thought it was worth doing

04:58:46

18

proactively.

04:58:48

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:58:49

9

So is the converse true, the fact that

04:58:50

21

it was not available in electronic format on the

04:58:51

22

Internet, as you searched for it, means there was

04:58:54

23

not a high demand for it in digital form?

04:58:58

20

Q.

So -- but if it was already

MR. KAPLAN:

24
25

Objection.

Vague.

Confusing.

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04:59:01
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
300
THE WITNESS:

1

I don't think you can

04:59:19

2

reach that conclusion by its lack of availability

04:59:19

3

alone.

04:59:22

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

04:59:22

5

Q.

7

04:59:23

MR. KAPLAN:

6

What other facts would you need?

04:59:25

hypothetical.

Incomplete

Vague.

THE WITNESS:

8

Objection.

04:59:26
I might measure if

04:59:31

Google -- like, for example, how many times it was

04:59:35

10

searched for on Google.

04:59:40

11

indication of -- of demand for this particular

04:59:42

12

document.

04:59:45

9

That would be some

The fact that I was able to find the

13

04:59:46

14

document cited at blindness organizations made me

04:59:48

15

think that it was, relatively speaking to other

04:59:52

16

books and education, more important than many

04:59:53

17

other books.

04:59:57

18

importance.

05:00:02

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:00:08

20
21

Q.

So let's just say middling

I'm sorry, Mr. Fruchterman, I've never

heard the word before.

05:00:08
05:00:10

What is your definition of "middling"?

22

05:00:12

23

A.

This book --

05:00:17

24

Q.

The 1999 standards?

05:00:19

25

A.

-- was referred to in documents on both

05:00:20

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301
1

the American Printing House for the Blind and the

05:00:26

2

American Foundation for the Blind's web sites.

05:00:29

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

question, which is define "middling."
THE WITNESS:

5
6

Above zero.

Definition of "middling."

Below infinity.

MR. KAPLAN:

7
8

You just want to answer his

That defines it as moderate

THE WITNESS:

05:00:35
05:00:38
05:00:40

or average in size of note to rank.

9

05:00:34

05:00:45
05:00:47

It's not a "Harry Potter"

10

book.

11

from 1960 to 1980.

05:00:55

12

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:01:01

13

Q.

It's not the political history of Albania

05:00:50

So the fact that the 1999 standards are

05:00:52

05:01:01

14

mentioned in publications for the blind does not

05:01:06

15

tell you the level of demand for the 1999

05:01:14

16

standards by people who are blind or otherwise

05:01:17

17

print-disabled?

05:01:22

MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

Vague.

Argumentative.
THE WITNESS:

20
21

Objection.

05:01:25
05:01:28

I disagree.

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:01:32
05:01:36

22

Q.

Why?

05:01:37

23

A.

Because there are many blind educators

05:01:37

24

and many blind students.

And testing of blind

25

people is a very big issue in the blindness field.

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1

The number of books specifically mentioned as

05:01:49

2

relevant to the blindness field is very small

05:01:51

3

because the publishing of the American Printing

05:01:57

4

House on topics concerning blind people or the

05:01:59

5

American Foundation for the Blind is very small.

05:02:02

The fact that it's mentioned at two

6

05:02:04

7

different web sites as an important reference work

05:02:07

8

to me is a statement that it is far more likely to

05:02:11

9

be interesting to a blind person, knowing what I

05:02:15

10

know about the blindness field, than some random

05:02:19

11

other title.

05:02:23

12

relevant book.

It's an indication that this is a

05:02:28

I am certain that some blind person has

13

05:02:33

14

said, I wish I had a copy of this book in an

05:02:35

15

accessible format, though no one has actually said

05:02:38

16

that to me.

05:02:41

17

occurred to a blind person in the United States.

18

Q.

I'm quite certain that that has

So the fact that the 1999 standards are

05:02:46
05:02:48

19

relevant to some blind people does not tell you

05:02:50

20

whether the demand for the 1999 standards are

05:02:54

21

something that blind people would want to acquire

05:03:02

22

in the tens, the hundreds, the thousands, the

05:03:07

23

hundred thousand, is it?

05:03:10

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

Argumentative.

05:03:12

I could tell you with

05:03:18

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303
1

certainty that it's not in the hundred thousands.

05:03:19

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:03:24

3
4

Q.

And you could probably say with

certainty that it's not in the hundreds.

05:03:25

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

I'm not --

05:03:31

7

MR. KAPLAN:

Misleading.

05:03:33

8

THE WITNESS:

9
10

Objection.

05:03:24

05:03:30

-- really certain of that.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:03:34
05:03:36

You have no knowledge as you sit here

05:03:36

11

about the level of demand for the 1999 standards

05:03:40

12

by the blind or the visually impaired?

05:03:43

MR. KAPLAN:

13
14
15
16
17

answered.

Objection.

Asked and

Vague.

05:03:46
05:03:47

THE WITNESS:

Not beyond the

05:03:52

considerations I've already expressed.

05:03:52

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel, what I'm about to

05:04:14

18

put in front of the witness was already marked

05:04:15

19

during Mr. Malamud's deposition.

05:04:19

20

to re-mark it as a separate exhibit for this

05:04:21

21

deposition?

05:04:24

22
23

MR. KAPLAN:
exhibit number.

Do you want us

I think we can use the same

In this case, not in that case?

24

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

25

I'm going to give a copy to the court

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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304
1

reporter.

Just note for the record that the

2

document I'm now putting in front of the witness

05:04:38

3

was marked as Exhibit 34 during Mr. Malamud's

05:04:42

4

deposition on May 12, 2015.

05:04:45

THE WITNESS:

5

Do you need to do anything

05:04:55

And the mike got kind of knocked.

05:04:55

6

with it?

7

I don't know if that matters.

8

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

9

Okay.

05:04:36

Okay.

All right.

05:04:59
05:05:09

Mr. Fruchterman, could you please pull

05:05:11

10

out Exhibit 59 that was previously marked at your

05:05:12

11

deposition today.

05:05:16

12

in front of you.

HathiTrust litigation?
A.

15

Was it a truck or an earthquake?

MR. HUDIS:

I don't think that was an

Q.

05:05:32
05:05:55
05:05:56

I think that was a truck.

Bite your tongue.

20

05:05:21
05:05:23

earthquake.

18
19

Okay.

MR. KAPLAN:

16
17

05:05:20

That's your declaration from the

13
14

It's in the pile of documents

Mr. Fruchterman, let's turn back to your

05:05:58
05:06:04
05:06:08

21

declaration from the HathiTrust litigation that's

05:06:09

22

Exhibit 59.

05:06:12

23

A.

Yes.

05:06:13

24

Q.

At pages 6 through 7, paragraphs 25 and

05:06:13

25

26.

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305
1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

All right.

3
4

And that's where you

discover the levels of complexity of documents?
A.

Yes.

05:06:20
05:06:22
05:06:28

MR. KAPLAN:

5
6

05:06:19

It's paragraph 25.

05:06:33

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:06:38

7

Q.

And then it goes to 26.

05:06:38

8

A.

Talks about costs.

05:06:40

9

Q.

Costs.

05:06:41

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

Now, Mr. Fruchterman, I've put in front

Yes.

Okay.

05:06:41
05:06:46

12

of you what was previously marked during

13

Mr. Malamud's deposition as Exhibit 34.

14

really focusing you on the textual material after

05:06:58

15

the certificate on the front and after the cover.

05:07:02

16

So I want you to concentrate on the textual

05:07:08

17

material.

05:07:10
All right.

And I'm

05:06:53

And just note

05:07:12

19

for the record, the witness is thumbing through

05:07:14

20

Malamud Exhibit 34 to review the textual material.

05:07:16

21

Let me know when you're ready.

05:07:26

22

While the witness is reading through the

05:07:34

18

MR. HUDIS:

05:06:50

23

document, Exhibit 34 is the 1999 Standards for

05:07:35

24

Educational and Psychological Testing.

05:07:40

25

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

I'm ready for a

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1

question.

05:07:46

2

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:07:46

Q.

3

Using the complexity levels discussed in

05:07:46

4

your HathiTrust declaration, Exhibit 59, what

05:07:48

5

level of complexity would you assign to the 1999

05:07:52

6

standards?

05:07:55

7

A.

8
9

3.

Probably a Level 2.

It could be a Level

05:07:58

It would be in that range.

05:08:03

Q.

05:08:07

With that complexity level, how much

10

would it cost to make the 1999 standards

05:08:09

11

accessible to persons who are blind or visually

05:08:13

12

impaired?

05:08:16

13

A.

Low hundreds of dollars.

05:08:19

14

Q.

To put a finer point on that, when you

05:08:26

15

say "low hundreds," do you mean 100 to $200?

05:08:28

16

A.

I'd say 100 to $400.

05:08:31

17

Q.

Turning back to your expert's report, on

05:08:49

18

pages 5 through 6 --

05:08:50

19

A.

Yes.

05:08:52

20

Q.

-- that's Exhibit 64 --

05:08:52

21

MR. KAPLAN:

05:08:53

22

Mischaracterizes the document.

05:08:54

23

MR. HUDIS:

05:08:56

24

MR. KAPLAN:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Okay.
Oh, are we talking about -Pages 5 and 6?

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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307
MR. KAPLAN:

1
2

THE WITNESS:

Oh, are we on my expert

6

THE WITNESS:

Yes.

05:09:10

Oh, okay.

05:09:10

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:09:12

8

Q.

Yes.

9

A.

All right.

document.

11

Q.

05:09:07
05:09:09

MR. HUDIS:

10

05:09:03
05:09:06

report now?

5

7

I'm getting

confused about numbers.

3
4

I'm sorry.

Okay.

05:09:12
All right.

Great.

So a third

05:09:12

5 and 6.

05:09:13

And I'm pointing you now to the sentence

05:09:16

12

that spans from the bottom of page 5 to the top of

05:09:18

13

page 6.

05:09:22

14

A.

Yes.

05:09:28

15

Q.

So, Mr. Fruchterman, you were told by

05:09:28

16

defense counsel that an electronic version of the

05:09:30

17

1999 standards was hosted on the

05:09:33

18

Public.Resource.Org web site but has since been

05:09:35

19

removed during the course of this litigation.

05:09:40

20
21
22
23

A.

Yes, that is a fact that I was informed

of by counsel.
Q.

All right.

05:09:44
05:09:46

You did not obtain this

information from Carl Malamud?

05:09:47
05:09:49

24

A.

No, I did not.

05:09:55

25

Q.

Did you attempt to locate a historical

05:09:56

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308
1

version of the Public.Resource.Org web site to

05:09:58

2

determine whether an electronic version of the

05:10:02

3

1999 standards was previously hosted there?

05:10:05

4

MR. KAPLAN:

5

THE WITNESS:

Vague.

05:10:08

I did discover in

05:10:11

6

Google-searching a placeholder noting the

05:10:13

7

voluntary takedown of the file.

05:10:16

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:10:19

9

Q.

Objection.

So other than the placeholder that you

05:10:20

10

just described, did you conduct, say, using the

05:10:22

11

Wayback Machine historical search of the

05:10:31

12

Public.Resource.Org web site to determine whether

05:10:33

13

an electronic version of the 1999 standards, in

05:10:38

14

its full form, was previously hosted there?

05:10:41

MR. KAPLAN:

15
16

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.
THE WITNESS:

17

05:10:44
05:10:45

I did not examine the

05:10:46

18

Wayback Machine as you've described.

05:10:47

19

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:10:49

20

Q.

Did you use any other method to

05:10:49

21

determine whether an historical version of the

05:10:52

22

1999 standards was at any time hosted on the

05:10:55

23

Public.Resource.Org web site?

05:10:58

24
25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

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309
THE WITNESS:

1

Not beyond the two points

05:11:04

2

already mentioned.

05:11:05

3

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:11:13

4

Q.

Turning to page 9 now at the top of your

05:11:16

5

report, Exhibit 64, and I am focused on the first

05:11:18

6

full paragraph under the title "The

05:11:22

7

Public.Resource.Org Version of the 1999

05:11:24

8

Standards."

05:11:28

9

A.

Yes.

05:11:29

10

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, you were provided by

05:11:32

11

defense counsel with a PDF file containing the

05:11:33

12

content of the 1999 standards.

05:11:35

13

A.

That's my recollection.

05:11:43

14

Q.

And it was represented to you by defense

05:11:47

15

counsel that this PDF file containing the 1999

05:11:50

16

standards was the version that had been made

05:11:53

17

available on the Public.Resource.Org web site at

05:11:55

18

one time?

05:11:59

19

A.

That was my understanding, yes.

05:12:01

20

Q.

You were informed Public.Resource

05:12:05

21

created this PDF file by purchasing a printed copy

05:12:08

22

of the 1999 standards, chopping off the binding

05:12:11

23

and scanning the pages?

05:12:15

24
25

A.

I am not sure I was informed of that

fact by anyone in particular.

I might have read

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it in a deposition 'cause I read the deposition

05:12:28

2

reports.

05:12:32

3

makes a lot of sense to me, that that would be

05:12:34

4

what they would do.

05:12:37

5

Q.

So I don't recall exactly, but that

So you were either informed of that fact

05:12:38

6

either by defense counsel or by reading a

05:12:40

7

deposition transcript in this case?

05:12:43

8

A.

Yes.

05:12:48

9

Q.

The OCR process had not been performed

05:12:55

10

on the electronic PDF file of the 1999 standards

05:13:00

11

that defense counsel gave to you?

05:13:03

12

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

13

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

Vague.
The

05:13:07
05:13:11

14

Public.Resource.Org version of the 1999 standards

05:13:11

15

was an image-only PDF format.

05:13:15

16

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:13:21

17

Q.

Okay.

In your report, Mr. Fruchterman,

05:13:21

18

on page 9, in that same full paragraph, you

05:13:22

19

describe the content of the 1999 standards within

05:13:26

20

the PDF file given to you by defense counsel to be

05:13:29

21

the result of a high-quality image scan.

05:13:33

22

A.

Mh-hmm.

23

Q.

What did you mean by "high-quality image

24

scan"?

25

Yes.

05:13:39
05:13:40
05:13:42

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague and

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confusing.
THE WITNESS:

2

05:13:44
I was able to easily read

05:13:57

3

the content, and it looked like an OCR device

05:13:59

4

would be able to recognize the characters.

05:14:02

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:14:04

6

Q.

As part of your work for the report of

05:14:05

7

Exhibit 64, did you compare the text of the PDF

05:14:10

8

file given to you of 1999 standards with the

05:14:14

9

printed version?

05:14:16

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11

THE WITNESS:

12
13
14

Q.

Not side-by-side.

05:14:20
05:14:23

the PDF file?

16

THE WITNESS:

19

05:14:19

Did you check for any missing pages in

MR. KAPLAN:

18

Vague.

BY MR. HUDIS:

15

17

Objection.

05:14:27
Objection.

Vague.

No.

05:14:31

Did you check for any misaligned pages

in the PDF file?

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

05:14:28
05:14:30

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:14:24

05:14:31
05:14:33

Objection.

Vague.

I scanned quite a number

05:14:35
05:14:35

22

of pages looking for misalignments and didn't see

05:14:36

23

any.

05:14:39

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:14:40

25

Q.

Did you review the entire document to

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1

look for PDF misaligned pages?

2

MR. KAPLAN:

3

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

05:14:41
Vague.

I did not review every

05:14:44
05:14:44

4

page.

05:14:46

5

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:14:46

6

Q.

After you were provided with the

05:14:49

7

image-only PDF file of the 1999 standards by

05:14:51

8

defense counsel, you used the ABBYY FineReader

05:14:54

9

software and free online OCR service to OCR

05:14:57

10

process selected pages of the document; isn't that

05:15:03

11

right?

05:15:07

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

All right.

05:15:07
You did not OCR process the

05:15:07

14

entire 212 pages of the PDF-scanned 1999

05:15:10

15

standards?

05:15:14

16

A.

Correct.

05:15:15

17

Q.

And it is common that OCR processing of

05:15:24

18

scanned text results in text recognition errors?
MR. KAPLAN:

19
20

Objection.

Argumentative.

And vague.

05:15:30
05:15:34

THE WITNESS:

21

05:15:27

Depending on the quality

05:15:37

22

of the scan and the complexity of the material,

05:15:38

23

you would see a variety of OCR error levels, yes.

05:15:41

24

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:15:44

25

Q.

After you subjected the selected pages

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of the 1999 standards from the PDF document you

05:15:52

2

were given, did you check for the following

05:15:55

3

errors, yes or no.

05:15:59

4

Misrec errors?

5

MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

7

05:16:03

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

05:16:08
05:16:12

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:16:12

8

Q.

Did you find any?

05:16:12

9

A.

Yes.

05:16:13

10

Q.

Did you check for nonrec errors?

05:16:16

11

MR. KAPLAN:

05:16:19

12

THE WITNESS:

13

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

05:16:20

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:16:20

14

Q.

Did you find any?

05:16:20

15

A.

Yes.

05:16:21

16

Q.

Did you check for drops?

05:16:22

17

MR. KAPLAN:

18

THE WITNESS:

19

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:16:23
05:16:25
05:16:25

20

Q.

Did you find any?

05:16:25

21

A.

Yes.

05:16:25

22

Q.

Did you check for adds?

05:16:26

23

MR. KAPLAN:

05:16:29

24

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague.
I didn't see any adds.

25
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314
1
2

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

A.

So let's take that one at a time.

05:16:35

So you checked for adds?

3
4

05:16:35

05:16:37

Well, I examined the document, and I'm

05:16:39

5

talking about errors I observed as opposed to

05:16:41

6

errors I didn't observe.

05:16:44

7

I would have been seeing it.

So if I had seen an add,
I don't know.

05:16:47

8

Q.

So --

05:16:50

9

A.

I was looking for errors.

05:16:51

10

Q.

Right.

05:16:52

11

So my first question is, did you

check for adds errors?

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

05:16:55
Objection.

Vague.

If I -- if an add had been

05:16:58
05:16:59

14

there and I had been looking at it, I would have

05:17:01

15

been checking for them, yes.

05:17:03

16

BY MR. KAPLAN:

But --

05:17:05

17

Q.

And you didn't find any?

05:17:06

18

A.

I didn't see any adds.

05:17:07

19

Q.

And did you check the entire 212 pages

05:17:08

20

of the document for adds errors?

05:17:11

21

A.

No.

05:17:13

22

Q.

So now we're at page 10, at the bottom

05:17:22

23

of page -- of Exhibit 64, your expert's report.

05:17:24

24

A.

Yes.

05:17:28

25

Q.

After you OCR-processed select pages

05:17:29

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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315
1

from the image-only PDF file of the 1999 standards

05:17:32

2

given to you by defense counsel, you used the

05:17:35

3

Window-Eyes software tool to read text aloud and

05:17:39

4

to conduct full-text searches by keyword?

05:17:43

5

A.

Right.

6

Q.

All right.

05:17:47
Now, Mr. Fruchterman, you

05:17:48

7

could not use the Window-Eyes software tool to

05:17:51

8

read text of the 1999 standards aloud or to

05:17:54

9

conduct full-text searches by keyword before the

05:17:58

PDF pages were OCR processed.

05:18:01

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

Objection.

Vague.

Compound.

05:18:05
THE WITNESS:

13

05:18:04

You're making a statement.

05:18:10

14

What's the question?

05:18:10

15

BY MR. KAPLAN:

05:18:13

16
17

Q.

All right.

I will ask the question a

different way.

05:18:14

Could you use the Window-Eyes software

18

05:18:13

05:18:16

19

tool to read the text of the 1999 standards aloud

05:18:18

20

before the PDF pages were OCR processed?

05:18:22

MR. KAPLAN:

21
22

25

Vague.

Confusing.
No.

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

05:18:25
05:18:26

THE WITNESS:

23
24

Objection.

Could you use the Window-Eyes software

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05:18:30
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316
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to conduct full-text searches by keyword before

05:18:34

2

the PDF pages were OCR processed?

05:18:37

MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

7

Vague and

confusing.
No.

05:18:46

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

05:18:41
05:18:41

THE WITNESS:

5
6

Objection.

05:18:46

And, in fact, Mr. Fruchterman, you could

05:18:53

8

not use any screen reader software tool to read

05:18:54

9

the text of the 1999 standards aloud before the

05:18:57

PDF pages were OCR processed?

05:19:01

10

MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

05:19:05
THE WITNESS:

13

05:19:04

That's correct.

But some

05:19:09

14

screen readers have OCR software built in and

05:19:10

15

would be able to do that process inside the screen

05:19:13

16

reader.

05:19:15

17

screen reader.

18

BY MR. KAPLAN:

19

But I did not do that process inside the

Q.

I did it in a separate product.

05:19:18
05:19:21

And you could not use a screen reader

05:19:21

20

software tool to conduct full-text searches by

05:19:23

21

keyword before the PDF pages were OCR processed?

05:19:26

MR. KAPLAN:

22
23
24

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

05:19:31
05:19:32

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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317
1
2

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

05:19:33

Let's turn to pages 11 and 12 of your

05:19:39

And I'm focusing on the textual material

05:19:42

3

report.

4

in your report, Mr. Fruchterman, under the title

05:19:50

5

"The Archive.Org Version of the 1999 Standards."

05:19:53

6

A.

Yes.

05:19:57

7

Q.

Now, it's true you were -- it's true you

05:19:59

8

were told by a representative of the Internet

05:20:09

9

Archive that an electronic text or txt version of

05:20:11

10

the '99 standards was hosted on the Internet

05:20:15

11

Archive web site at one time?

05:20:18

12

A.

Yes.

05:20:20

13

Q.

You did not attempt to locate a

05:20:21

14

historical version of the Internet Archive web

05:20:24

15

site to determine whether an electronic text

05:20:26

16

version of the 1999 standards was previously

05:20:29

17

hosted on Internet Archive?

05:20:32

MR. KAPLAN:

18
19

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

05:20:40
THE WITNESS:

20

05:20:34

Not beyond doing a Google

05:20:41

21

search, which I don't believe turned it up for me.

05:20:43

22

But it might have if I kept going in the results.

05:20:45

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:20:47

24
25

Q.

But if you did, you didn't document it

in your report.

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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318
1

MR. KAPLAN:

2

THE WITNESS:

3
4

Objection.

Vague.

05:20:51

What's your question?

05:20:59

BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q.

05:21:00

Well, you said if you had a Google

05:21:01

5

search, you would have kept going.

6

found an historical version of the 1999 standards

05:21:05

7

on the Internet Archive web site.

05:21:08

8

document that in your report, did you?

9

A.

11

You didn't

Objection.

05:21:04

05:21:11

I didn't say that.
MR. KAPLAN:

10

You would have

05:21:14
Vague.

05:21:15

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:21:16

12

Q.

What did you say?

05:21:16

13

A.

I said I did conduct a Google search for

05:21:17

14

the report.

15

site.

I found it on the Internet Archive

05:21:21

I did not see a link -- I'm sorry.

05:21:25

I found it on the Public.Resource.Org

16

05:21:29

17

site with a takedown notice that it was gone.

18

did not see a link to the Internet Archive.

19

said is it might have been in the Google results

05:21:42

20

beyond the place where I stopped looking.

05:21:44

21

Q.

I

05:21:32

All I

05:21:36

So my question, then, is did you use any

05:21:47

22

method to determine whether an historical version

05:21:52

23

of the '99 standards was hosted on the Internet

05:21:57

24

Archive web site at one time in the past?

05:22:01

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

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319
THE WITNESS:

1
2
3
4

Q.

05:22:09

And you didn't use the Wayback Machine

for that purpose either?
MR. KAPLAN:

6

THE WITNESS:

8

05:22:09

BY MR. HUDIS:

5

7

No.

05:22:11

Objection.

Vague.

No.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:22:09

05:22:13
05:22:14
05:22:21

And on that same page, page 11, at the

05:22:22

bottom paragraph, you were provided by an Internet

05:22:24

10

Archive representative with a text or txt file

05:22:29

11

containing the content of the 1999 standards?

05:22:33

9

12

A.

Correct.

13

Q.

All right.

05:22:37
And it was represented to

05:22:38

14

you by the Internet Archive representative that

05:22:40

15

this txt file containing the 1999 standards was

05:22:42

16

the version that had been made available on the

05:22:46

17

Internet Archive web site at one time?

05:22:48

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

All right.

05:22:51
And now continuing on that

05:22:54

20

same explanation on pages 11 and 12 of Exhibit 64,

05:22:55

21

your report, by reviewing the Archive.Org

05:22:59

22

derivatives page, you were able to determine that

05:23:03

23

when a PDF file is uploaded to the Internet

05:23:06

24

Archive web site, that web site automatically

05:23:09

25

creates derivative file types that are also

05:23:13

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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320
1

accessible on that web site, including in the txt

05:23:16

2

format?

05:23:19
MR. KAPLAN:

3
4

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

05:23:21
THE WITNESS:

5

05:23:20

Yes.

I read that at that

6

link.

7

some of the depositions that I reviewed.

05:23:43

8

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:23:45

9
10

Q.

And I believe I also saw mention of that in

05:23:37

You just anticipated my next question.

Thank you, Mr. Fruchterman.

05:23:45
05:23:47

So from reading -- from your reading of

11

05:23:39

05:23:49

12

the transcripts from the depositions of

05:23:50

13

Carl Malamud of Public.Resource and

05:23:52

14

Christopher Butler of Internet Archive, when

05:23:54

15

Public.Resource uploaded the PDF file of the 1999

05:23:57

16

standards to the Internet Archive web site, that

05:24:01

17

web site automatically created a txt file of the

05:24:04

18

1999 standards?

05:24:07

19

MR. KAPLAN:

20

THE WITNESS:

21
22

Objection.

Vague.

That's my understanding.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

05:24:11
05:24:12
05:24:14

And this txt file of the 1999

05:24:15

23

standards, in your view, had been created by

05:24:19

24

optical character recognition because the txt file

05:24:21

25

contained uncorrected errors typical of the OCR

05:24:25

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Conducted on September 8, 2015
321
1

process?

05:24:28

2

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

3

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

4

Vague.

05:24:28
05:24:29

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:24:30

5

Q.

What were those errors?

05:24:30

6

A.

Well, looking at Malamud 34, the first

05:24:39

7

page is a very stylized cover sheet.

And the

8

second page has the word "standards" bridging the

05:24:49

9

entire page.

05:24:55

Those didn't recognize well.

It's

05:24:43

10

quite typical of OCR that it doesn't do well --

05:24:58

11

so, for example, I remember specifically the word

05:25:01

12

"standards," I think, had errors in it as it

05:25:04

13

appeared on the top of this.

05:25:09

14

Q.

Continuing through the rest of

05:25:12

15

Malamud 34, did you notice any other errors

05:25:13

16

typical of the OCR process?

05:25:16

17

A.

Those were the -- certainly that cover

05:25:23

18

page kind of material was the thing that stuck in

05:25:25

19

my mind as having obvious OCR errors.

05:25:27

20

down to, say, the copyright section, you know, I

05:25:31

21

zeroed to that, and I saw very few errors.

05:25:33

22
23
24
25

Q.

Once I got

But you did see errors?
MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

05:25:36
Vague and

confusing.
THE WITNESS:

05:25:41
05:25:42

I don't remember any

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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322
1

particular errors.

2

might be one or two in that amount of text, but

05:25:50

3

perhaps zero.

05:25:52

4

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:25:54

5

Q.

I could conceive of that there

When you engaged in your accessibility

05:25:46

05:25:54

6

to review, in particular, the txt file, access --

05:25:57

7

accessible at one time from the Internet Archive

05:26:00

8

web site, did you go through the rest of the 1999

05:26:03

9

standards to look for OCR errors?

05:26:07

MR. KAPLAN:

10
11

Objection.

Vague and

confusing.

05:26:12
THE WITNESS:

12

05:26:09

I did go through more

05:26:13

13

pages and performed the same tests that -- that I

05:26:15

14

had performed on the earlier one, but I had the

05:26:21

15

benefit of the entire text file instead of just

05:26:24

16

the handful of pages I'd recognized.

05:26:28

17

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:26:30

18
19

Q.

And I did notice OCR errors throughout

the document?

20

MR. KAPLAN:

21

THE WITNESS:

05:26:30
05:26:34

Objection.
A few.

Vague.

But I felt like

05:26:34
05:26:35

22

the OCR was working quite well on this document.

05:26:37

23

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:26:46

24

Q.

Mr. Malamud, let's --

05:27:00

25

A.

I'm not --

05:27:02

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323
1

Q.

I'm sorry.

It's late.

05:27:02

Mr. Fruchterman --

2

05:27:04

3

A.

Yes.

05:27:04

4

Q.

-- if you could turn to page 7 of your

05:27:04

5

expert's report, Exhibit 64.
MR. KAPLAN:

6
7

05:27:07

That one almost slipped

past me.

05:27:10
05:27:10

8

(Reporter interruption.)

05:27:10

9

MR. HUDIS:

05:27:11

10

What he said was I

blew past him.
MR. KAPLAN:

11
12

Sure.

05:27:20
Yes.

05:27:22

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:27:22

13

Q.

Are you there, Mr. Fruchterman?

05:27:23

14

A.

I am.

05:27:24

15

Q.

Thank you.

05:27:25

As part -- now, looking at page 7, the

05:27:26

16
17

top paragraph of your expert's report, as part of

05:27:29

18

your accessibility review for the purposes of your

05:27:34

19

expert's report, you reviewed the

05:27:35

20

Public.Resource.Org web site?

05:27:38

21

MR. KAPLAN:

22

THE WITNESS:

23
24
25

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Did you observe on Public.Resource's web

site any place where Public.Resource held itself

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05:27:44
05:27:46
05:27:46
05:27:49

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
324
1

out as making the materials posted on its site

05:27:51

2

accessible to the blind or print-disabled?

05:27:55

3

MR. KAPLAN:

4

THE WITNESS:

5

Objection.

Vague.

05:27:59

I did not.

05:28:02

BY MR. HUDIS:
Except for a placeholder noting the

05:28:04

7

voluntary takedown of the 1999 standards, you

05:28:05

8

could not locate this document on the

05:28:12

9

Public.Resource web site, correct?

05:28:14

6

Q.

05:28:03

10

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

11

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

12
13

Vague.

05:28:17
05:28:18

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:28:18

However, you did search for and access

05:28:18

14

other standards posted on the Public.Resource web

05:28:20

15

site?

05:28:22

16

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

17

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

18

Vague.

05:28:24
05:28:26

BY MR. HUDIS:

19

Q.

20

05:28:27

Mr. Malamud -- I did it again.

My

apologies.

05:28:32
Mr. Fruchterman, there were no sign-up

21

05:28:29

05:28:34

22

procedures in order for an Internet user to access

05:28:36

23

the content on the Public.Resource web site,

05:28:38

24

correct?

05:28:41

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Calls

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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325
1

for speculation.

THE WITNESS:

2
3
4

Lacks foundation.

05:28:43

Correct.

05:28:46

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:28:46

During your review of Public.Resource's

05:28:51

5

web site, you were able to access standards

05:28:53

6

produced by other companies, such as the NFPA,

05:28:56

7

without restriction?

05:29:01

8

MR. KAPLAN:

9

THE WITNESS:

10
11

Objection.

Vague.

Yes.

05:29:08

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:29:04

05:29:08

There were no requirements that a user

05:29:10

12

be visually impaired to access these other

05:29:11

13

standards documents on Public.Resource's web site?

05:29:15

14

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

15

THE WITNESS:

Correct.

16
17

Vague.

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:29:19
05:29:20
05:29:20

Mr. Fruchterman, for the next series of

05:29:32

18

questions, I would like you to pull out

05:29:34

19

Exhibit 60, which was your supplemental

05:29:36

20

declaration from the HathiTrust litigation.

05:29:40

21

A.

Okay.

05:29:42

22

Q.

And I'd also like you to pull out

05:29:43

23

Exhibit 55, which is the materials we reviewed

05:29:47

24

from the Bookshare web site.

05:29:52

25

A.

Good.

Do I get to put the rest of them

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326
1

away?

05:30:02

2

Q.

Soon.

05:30:02

3

A.

Or are these the only two I need to have

05:30:03

4
5
6
7
8
9

out now?
Q.

05:30:05
Those are the only two you have to have

out now.
A.

05:30:09
Okay.

I have those two documents in

front of me, Exhibit 55 and 60.
Q.

05:30:07

Okay.

05:30:18
05:30:19

So I would like to focus your

05:30:25

10

attention on -- in the supplemental declaration,

05:30:25

11

Exhibit 60, to pages 2 and 3, where you talk about

05:30:28

12

the digital rights management plan.

05:30:33

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Okay.

05:30:37
And similarly, an explanation of

15

the DRM plan on page 18 of Exhibit 55.

16

And that's

the Bookshare web site.

05:30:38
05:30:43
05:31:04

17

A.

Okay.

05:31:13

18

Q.

During your review of Public.Resource's

05:31:13

19

web site, how did their web site compare with the

05:31:16

20

Bookshare web site in terms of employing a digital

05:31:20

21

rights management or DRM plan to protect the

05:31:23

22

digital copies of standards posted on

05:31:27

23

Public.Resource's web site from unauthorized

05:31:30

24

copying?

05:31:35

25

MR. KAPLAN:

Objection.

Vague.

Calls

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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327
1

for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS:

2
3

MR. HUDIS:

I didn't find a DRM plan

I'd like to take a break for

five minutes.

05:31:43
05:31:45
05:31:52
05:33:18

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

6
7

05:31:36

in evidence on the Public.Resource.Org site.

4
5

Confusing.

Going off the record

at 5:33.

05:33:19
05:33:20

8

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

05:33:27

9

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

05:39:35

Back on the record at

10

5:39.

05:39:37

11

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:39:38

12

Q.

Mr. Fruchterman, when you examined

05:39:40

13

Public.Resource's web site, you noticed a number

05:39:44

14

of standards that were hosted on that web site?

05:39:48

15

A.

Correct.
MR. KAPLAN:

16

05:39:58
Objection.

Vague.

Asked

05:39:59

17

and answered.

05:40:00

18

BY MR. HUDIS:

05:40:00

19

Q.

Did you notice any restrictions on the

05:40:01

20

ability of an Internet user to copy any of the

05:40:02

21

standards that you saw on Public.Resource's web

05:40:11

22

site?

05:40:13

23

MR. KAPLAN:

24

THE WITNESS:

Objection.

Vague.

No.

25
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
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328
1
2

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:40:17

Did you notice any restrictions on the

05:40:19

3

ability of an Internet user to download any of the

05:40:20

4

standards hosted on the Public.Resource's web

05:40:28

5

site?

05:40:31

6

MR. KAPLAN:

7

THE WITNESS:

8
9

Objection.

Vague.

No.

05:40:32

BY MR. HUDIS:
Q.

05:40:31

05:40:32

Did you notice any restrictions on the

05:40:32

10

ability of an Internet user to print any of the

05:40:35

11

standards hosted on the Public.Resource web site?

05:40:37

12

MR. KAPLAN:

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

Vague.

No.

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. KAPLAN:

Thank you, Mr. Fruchterman.

Okay.

Thank you.

I have no questions at this

20

You get a chance, huh.

Okay.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

Oh, that's right.

05:40:52

05:40:53
05:40:54

This marks the end of

22

the deposition of James Fruchterman.

23

the record at 5:41.

25

05:40:46

05:40:53
THE WITNESS:

24

05:40:43
05:40:43

time.

19

21

05:40:40
05:40:41

That's all I have.

16

18

Objection.

Going off

(Whereupon, the deposition concluded
at 5:41 p.m.)

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05:40:56
05:40:56
05:40:59
05:41:00
05:41:00

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015
329
1

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

2

I, Kathleen A. Wilkins, Certified

3

Shorthand Reporter licensed in the State of

4

California, License No. 10068, hereby certify that

5

the deponent was by me first duly sworn, and the

6

foregoing testimony was reported by me and was

7

thereafter transcribed with computer-aided

8

transcription; that the foregoing is a full,

9

complete, and true record of proceedings.

10

I further certify that I am not of

11

counsel or attorney for either or any of the

12

parties in the foregoing proceeding and caption

13

named or in any way interested in the outcome of

14

the cause in said caption.

15

The dismantling, unsealing, or unbinding

16

of the original transcript will render the

17

reporter's certificates null and void.

18

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set

19

my hand this day:

20

_______ Reading and Signing was requested.

21

_______ Reading and Signing was waived.

22

___X___ Reading and Signing was not requested.

23

_________________________

24

KATHLEEN A. WILKINS

25

CSR 10068, RPR-RMR-CRR-CCRR-CLR

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

330
200:13,22 201:5,15
221:12 222:23 223:23
AAP
224:2 232:13 233:25
165:10
234:16 236:1,4,6
ABBYY
238:24 239:21 240:6
284:3,12,17 285:1,3,11
245:5 250:10 259:7
289:2,14 290:7 291:1
261:6 266:10,16
294:1 295:5,21 312:8
270:25 271:2 275:5
abide
278:10 293:15 322:6
135:7
324:13,22 325:5,12
ability
accessibilities
85:19 118:1 135:21
145:22 166:17 327:20 258:14
accessibility
328:3,10
118:5 184:17 249:20
able
250:1,8 251:12
28:6 44:25 56:8 86:9
252:10,17 257:12,19
98:2 142:21 147:17
258:2,14,21,24
155:17 156:7 159:21
259:11,15 262:23
167:21 266:9 278:2
263:14 264:11,24
291:9 300:13 311:2,4
265:6,12,18,24
316:15 319:22 325:5
266:21 267:9 268:2
above-entitled
274:16 276:19 277:11
2:10
277:15,22 278:5,10
absence
279:3,25 280:4,6,9
18:15
281:3 283:8,11,21
Abstract
284:11 289:21 290:4
5:6
291:4 294:3,17 295:5
abuse
295:18 322:5 323:18
167:11,19
accessible
accelerator
63:24 88:9 99:9 105:13
26:25 27:5,7
118:14 145:3 146:5,6
accept
146:17 147:9 159:18
171:13
160:11 169:11 181:20
acceptable
194:13,15,23 195:5
153:9
195:25 198:21 199:25
access
205:3,14 206:15
5:16 78:6 117:22 118:1
217:11 220:4,21
118:3,6,13,15,22
248:4 250:10 259:13
122:3,14,17,23
260:1,6 266:12
126:25 134:20 135:5
277:19 286:4,6,16,22
139:8,14,19,24
287:1,4,7,17 288:3,5
140:11,21 141:5,11
288:10,14,21 299:14
141:18,24 147:6
299:15 302:15 306:11
148:16,22 155:5
320:1 322:7 324:2
159:18,22 163:4
164:6 171:11 180:14 accessing
119:24 135:8 148:10
181:9 182:1 183:21
148:14 153:8 191:2
196:6 197:2 198:3
A

191:12 192:4,20
193:20 197:24 198:6
198:11 274:22 281:24
accommodation
104:21
accommodations
165:24
accomplish
184:11
accomplished
184:10
account
35:14 163:2,9
accounting
34:19
accounts
89:9
accuracy
46:14 290:13,16
accurate
14:4 16:2 123:20 161:5
186:16 226:1
accurately
11:12 153:10 154:5,18
170:15 190:8
achievement
19:14
acknowledge
10:4 174:17
acquire
86:5 97:15 116:15
119:17 302:21
acquired
40:3,10 41:11
Acquiring
193:13
acquisition
118:20,25 192:14,25
193:2,6,16,22,24
194:7,13,23 195:5,10
Acrobat
294:21 296:1
Act
127:23 171:9
acting
139:3
action

2:12 4:11 9:22 91:12
active
67:16 68:7 72:17 73:4
74:8 82:23
actively
129:20
activists
108:14
activities
74:18 76:19 166:18
194:21 195:2
actor
138:17,19
actors
139:1
actual
83:16
adaptive
181:25 197:12 239:23
add
46:19 99:7 105:14,15
117:7 294:19 314:6
314:13
added
87:25 113:25
adding
56:4
addition
134:6 142:22 153:4
additional
28:13 114:12 188:12
229:16 251:23 260:16
address
9:10,13,14,15,16,18
45:21 49:9 144:13
164:24 165:3 259:19
addresses
45:17
addressing
197:1
adds
203:15 313:22,24
314:3,11,18,20
ADHD
149:12
adhere
221:22 227:13

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

331
administrative
48:3 81:18
Adobe
116:5 294:21 295:25
advance
197:12
advantage
100:16 106:3
Advertisements
243:21
advice
128:17 211:6
advocacy
81:19
affairs
48:8 212:2
affect
249:22
affiliated
33:23
affordable
186:6
AFTERNOON
4:5 143:8
agency
181:22
agenda
80:7
agent
171:13 172:9
agents
171:17
ago
173:9 180:6 185:15
217:2,19 218:6
agree
55:22 91:12 129:20
145:6,14,25 146:1
150:18,25 151:17
152:1 159:1,8 160:6
164:9 180:22 181:10
182:3 183:25 221:20
234:12 239:9 240:10
247:7
agreed
91:18 100:3
agreeing

174:10,17,25
agreement
128:25 135:7,15,17,21
175:1,2,8 248:10,12
255:17,23 256:3
257:1
agreements
112:18,23 127:17
165:12,13,17 169:1
230:3
agrees
220:10
ahead
38:25 116:2 121:24
197:18 220:25 259:21
259:22
Ai
271:4
al
1:5 6:19 8:7 229:9
Albania
301:10
Alexandria
3:14
align
147:10
Alison
180:7
alive
67:18
allay
133:2
allegations
209:19
allow
103:3 165:19 230:4
232:16
allowed
171:24
allows
88:1 128:7 156:4 164:1
238:21
alluded
280:16
Ally
237:2
aloud

56:9 196:8 198:24
199:16 200:8 259:9
264:17 266:19 270:1
272:1 273:5,13
291:10 293:1 315:3,8
315:19 316:9
alphabet
45:14
alternate
198:10
alternative
197:23 198:6
Alto
9:12,19 74:24
Amazon
119:7 133:16 134:10
166:5 297:12
Amazon.com
83:25 296:4 297:21,23
298:5
amendment
5:15 127:22 128:3
129:5,14,21,25
133:10 145:20 157:21
157:22 158:13 163:23
164:1 169:15 170:22
171:23 172:4,6,7
180:18,24 181:8
182:7 210:11
America
247:15,17 248:13
American
1:4 8:5 132:7 164:22
164:23 165:2 167:8,9
167:17 189:16 301:1
301:2 302:3,5
amicus
210:17 236:24
amount
218:5 322:2
analyzed
31:18
analyzes
293:5,7
Android
85:8
and/or

251:25
announced
40:18
annual
160:23
answer
7:22 10:21 11:5,8 13:5
16:5 45:12 49:21
51:4,24 67:21 68:2
79:7,10 83:12 90:20
94:7,11 107:17
122:22 125:9 137:24
157:17 218:19 221:18
221:19 225:5,8 227:8
227:20 251:17 301:3
answered
15:6 61:4 76:5 99:22
107:19 263:2,4
303:14 327:17
answers
156:2
anticipated
320:9
antithesis
206:10
anyplace
111:22
anyway
256:25
apart
92:24 95:24 116:23
253:7
apologies
144:8 324:20
app
84:7 85:8 94:8
appeal
236:20,23 237:4
appealed
236:16
appeals
7:5 237:8,23
appear
120:17 136:21
APPEARANCES
3:1
appeared

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

332
2:9 137:25 321:13
appears
173:25 175:7 195:1
214:14 233:2
appellate
228:23 237:5
Apple
94:8 97:11,16
apples
103:23
appliance
57:20,24 59:7 61:15
applicable
155:19 163:10
application
5:7 30:7
applications
51:20 52:13
applied
17:2,3,11,16,22 18:9
279:20
applies
92:11 126:21
apply
158:10
appreciate
131:6 183:11 238:13
approach
198:23 247:23 276:18
277:9 280:3,12,13,15
280:19 281:2
approaches
277:19
appropriate
252:1
approve
166:18
approximately
40:21 55:14 196:17
archive
253:8,21 296:9 317:9
317:11,14,17 318:7
318:14,18,24 319:10
319:14,17,24 320:14
320:16 322:7
Archive's
7:10 242:4

Archive.Org
317:5 319:21
area
20:9 45:7 82:15 153:15
157:8 168:1 187:3,17
areas
17:22 51:14 77:5
arena
187:9
Argosy
49:6,8
argued
238:9,11
argumentative
33:24 74:10 87:23 89:7
89:19 95:7 96:4,19
97:1,7 99:3 100:5
103:6 106:10,23
112:15 113:2 114:5
115:22 117:3 118:24
120:20 127:15 129:6
129:19 134:4,12
136:7 165:6 167:23
187:18 196:20 208:23
209:4 224:3 227:5
255:24 260:12 278:25
281:12 292:12 301:19
302:24 312:19
Arkenstone
4:24 53:4,6,21 54:4,11
54:16,22 55:1,6,8,16
55:25 56:1,2,10,11,17
56:21 57:1,2,6,12,16
58:11 60:6 62:21
63:21 65:6 66:14
67:10,12,22 68:21,25
69:4 70:15,25 71:8,11
72:10 76:2,13,14
186:13
array
168:14
art
109:22 177:2
article
5:18 180:5 185:14,16
242:1,7
asked

15:5 61:3 76:4 94:4
99:21 156:1 157:8,8
171:8 191:9 251:15
253:16,17 263:1
283:7 295:2 303:13
327:16
asking
60:10 154:21
aspects
81:16
assemblage
209:24
asserted
210:3
asserting
246:23
assess
260:25 274:17 278:10
assessing
276:18 277:10,14
278:5 279:21 280:3,5
280:11 281:2
assessment
55:22 109:10 113:25
114:4 153:7 156:5
asset
65:7,12 66:20,21 67:3
67:10 68:7 72:9 76:2
76:22 77:1
assets
41:7 55:9,16
assign
93:6 306:5
assigned
71:10 119:4
assigning
70:21
assignment
71:7
assistance
177:8 178:2
assisted
141:13
assistive
5:23 88:2,6 139:14,17
139:25 141:13 147:5
190:21,21 191:10

196:14 266:14 273:15
274:19 275:2 283:24
289:13
associate
26:1
associated
33:1 46:11 53:24 88:2
88:6 95:12 137:7
162:10 192:3 193:20
association
1:5 8:6 131:22 132:7
138:2 164:21 165:2
165:18 166:17,23
167:8,17 189:16
associations
209:8,9
assume
56:14 196:21
assumed
159:21
assuming
41:8
ASTM
11:19
Atlas
63:22 64:17,25 66:4
atoms
28:4
attached
14:14 37:16 38:6 269:3
attachments
14:19,20 15:15 215:5,6
attempt
299:3 307:25 317:13
attempts
277:18
attention
149:11 183:2 202:2
251:24 326:10
attorney
182:21 329:11
attorney-client
227:21
audible
10:11 198:1
audio
170:8 199:7,8 200:7,23

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Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

333
207:11 208:1
auditory
269:24
August
161:13,15
auspices
139:3
authenticating
224:8
authentication
224:7
authenticity
143:21 176:3,6,8
author
172:9,12 190:24 244:1
authorities
152:12,19,25
authority
109:8,14,22 151:14,22
152:5,22
authorized
128:7 129:25 130:4
169:16 181:19 182:10
232:22
authors
6:17 7:6,12 159:16,24
168:10 171:17 189:24
201:10 208:18 209:6
209:8,11 229:8 232:9
237:24 242:4 248:2
author's
172:8
autism
149:11
automated
113:24 278:9,12,24
279:3,16 280:2
automatically
319:24 320:17
avail
127:16
availability
253:24 298:4 300:2
available
50:25 68:17 94:12
98:14 104:7 106:8
109:21 113:7 114:1

125:18,25 128:9
134:10,19 135:8
139:7 145:22 148:10
164:3 169:17 170:17
199:7,25 201:13
213:2 223:22 226:16
228:1 230:21 233:24
244:13 245:4 250:2
260:10 283:25 293:6
297:11 299:13,15,21
309:17 319:16
Avenue
9:19
average
216:19 217:14,18
301:8
avoid
105:6
aware
12:21 96:14 172:10
291:21
a.m
2:4 8:1,11

56:15
barely
56:13
bargain
159:12 180:12,21
189:20,25
based
16:11 51:25 54:16
58:17 59:3 145:11
149:16 155:11 159:17
161:10 165:24 188:21
212:10 213:9 219:12
220:18 223:11 224:23
225:9 226:9 258:2
272:19
basic
274:18
basically
24:4 86:3 209:25
267:13 268:7 273:5
basis
161:5 226:20
bear
169:24
B
bears
B
242:5
256:18
becoming
bachelor's
100:13 174:3
16:13,16 17:2
beginning
back
119:19
21:1 29:18 32:24 43:14 begins
64:14 74:13 91:9
8:4 91:7 185:8 249:2,3
106:4 131:2 133:19
behalf
136:21 143:9 144:3,9 105:11 135:17,19
167:1 175:24 176:18
136:1
185:10 208:14 222:8 beings
222:9 249:4 262:20
121:7
273:24 282:24 283:5 believe
304:20 306:17 327:9
12:20 15:21 28:1 56:20
background
62:9 63:7 64:22 66:2
21:7,22 29:13 35:12
66:7 67:6 75:4 77:17
123:15,16 229:23
78:24 79:19 83:17
245:18
87:12 88:20 89:20
balance
93:4 116:15,22 130:3
159:13
172:19 174:23 175:16
bananas
176:13 178:10 201:17
121:2
205:12 209:7 210:21
bar

213:9,25 214:22
215:3,11,12 217:15
224:6 226:12 227:24
242:2 247:16 251:11
256:20 258:5,23
263:3 265:2 295:17
317:21 320:6
believed
247:1
Beneficent
5:10 72:4 74:22 75:10
76:16 82:24 98:20,24
144:2
beneficiary
109:1
benefit
53:7 75:5 81:12 123:17
156:18 157:24 159:17
263:16 322:15
Benetech
33:3,4 55:5,17 72:6
74:15,19 75:8,15,17
75:20 76:1,8 77:6
78:4 79:23 81:3 82:6
82:9,12,19,24 83:4,10
84:3 85:4 87:20 89:4
90:1 96:5 138:11,13
138:15,21,21,24
139:2 145:10 161:11
163:19,20 164:17
169:16 170:16 175:11
175:15 176:4,15,25
177:6,13 178:4,10,22
179:4 185:19,22
186:3,17 248:9
Benetech's
106:21 178:15
Bengineering
76:21
best
41:5 48:10,18 58:2
72:8 76:10 90:12
92:1 93:9 100:2
101:2 222:21 297:8
297:10
beta
83:18

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

334
better
39:10,19 54:12 177:25
beyond
13:12 57:11 60:5
126:11 164:17 194:11
196:10 228:6 262:12
298:8,16,23 299:8
303:15 309:1 317:20
318:20
big
44:22 92:5 181:9
271:16 301:25
bigger
123:13
binding
113:20,21 309:22
bindings
117:10
Bite
304:19
black
123:14,15
blew
19:4 323:10
blind
5:25 32:19 60:19 62:25
63:25 70:11 78:5
122:24 125:3 140:15
150:14 153:3,17,17
169:22 170:10 182:1
186:7 190:22 191:11
196:15 197:12,14
210:20 222:22 257:13
257:19 258:3,8
259:10,14 260:2
261:4,10,15,17,17,22
262:24 263:20,21
264:10 266:8 270:12
272:22 273:7,18
274:3,10,18 275:4,12
275:17,24 276:4,9
281:10,14,18 283:9
289:3,12 293:19
298:20 299:5 301:1
301:14,16,23,24,24
302:4,5,9,13,17,19,21
303:12 306:11 324:2

157:16 158:12,18,20
books
blindness
160:20 161:1 162:3
48:4 99:6 100:4,18
86:8,23 150:11 153:5
162:25 163:2,4,9,19
105:14,23 106:8
239:4 262:16 282:1,5
163:21,24 164:5
114:1 126:22 133:12
300:14 301:25 302:2
165:4,11 167:10,19
134:19 135:20 145:22
302:10
168:13,20,23 169:10
146:5,9,13,16 147:22
Blind's
169:13 172:23 173:12
162:10,11,13 164:2
301:2
174:1,3,11,18 175:2,6
169:17 172:12 181:20
blog
175:7 176:23 182:9
191:3,12 199:5,6
242:21
184:8,12 187:2 189:9
201:4,11,12 205:3,15
blow
190:6,9 195:23
207:10 216:3 217:14
22:24
218:11,12 219:11,14
217:17 218:2,10,15
board
221:7,11,13 226:10
218:16 219:11 220:2
52:18 79:21 80:2,5,13
247:2 325:24 326:16
222:19 223:10 225:16
81:24 188:9,10,22
326:20
230:22,25 244:21
board-level
245:11 299:12 300:16 Bookshare's
80:14
99:1 100:13,17 101:24
300:17 302:1
body
102:8,22 112:3 122:2
Bookshare
83:24
122:13,17 126:6
5:13 82:1,6,16,18 83:3
Bokser
130:7 135:9 136:6
83:6,18,20,22 87:21
43:7
139:20 143:18 146:17
87:25 88:15,22 89:10
bona
148:15 171:4 172:15
90:3 92:21,23,25
164:4
226:2
94:13,19,22 95:3,4,13
bono
Bookshare.org
95:17,19,25 96:1,17
177:20 178:9 254:6,10
189:4
99:7,13 100:4,17
book
Bookshelf
101:15,19 103:3
58:12,16,21,22,23,25
89:5,22 90:4,11 91:22
104:7,18 105:13,16
59:5,7,14,23 60:16,23
92:11,13,17 93:9
106:2,8 108:20,23
61:10,11,13,14 62:5
96:16 97:5
109:2 110:2,12,24
65:14 104:25 105:6,7
111:6,7,17,22 112:12 Boolean
105:18 113:19 114:8
121:3
112:17,24 113:7,14
114:14 125:2,18
113:16 115:20 125:17 bordering
126:3 130:14 137:15
71:5
126:16 127:1,6,10
141:25 142:5,5,13
bottom
128:20,22 129:3,17
147:19 148:6 153:25
129:24 130:13 131:13 68:24 146:22 174:5,8
154:1,14 162:5
180:9 201:8 202:17
131:16 132:2,23
190:20,25 191:1,2,10
233:11,12 234:20
133:13 134:19 135:4
191:16,16 196:14
240:21 247:18 264:7
135:6,14 136:23
198:2 207:13 208:1,2
269:18 276:16 285:19
137:2 138:7,8,9,12,16
208:6 209:25 213:11
307:12 314:22 319:9
138:23 139:4,6 141:1
216:20 217:11,20,22
143:19 144:22 145:2 bound
218:20,21 219:5
156:20 158:1
145:9,18 146:12
220:3,21 221:2
Bowes
147:7,22 148:3,9,11
222:18 230:20 239:7
49:13
149:3 150:1,5,17,24
245:23 246:8,18
box
151:13,21 152:9,14
263:17 274:4,5,10,13
153:11,16 154:4,6,19 174:6,14,16,24
297:11 300:23 301:10
155:5 156:12 157:10 Brady
302:12,14

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

335
3:3 8:19
Braille
140:12,16,18,19
142:11,12 147:14,15
147:17,20 170:8
194:18 196:9 197:10
197:14,25 199:2,5,16
200:3,5,6,23 202:7
265:25 266:10,22
267:2,10,14,14,24
268:3,6,7,9 269:10,11
269:15 270:9,10,13
270:14,15,16 274:7
Brailler
199:2,16
brain
53:17
brain-injured
262:3
branched
186:20
brand
270:19 279:12,17,24
breach
241:4
breadboxes
39:14
break
10:18,20,22 90:25
104:15 142:25 207:21
208:8 248:17 282:8
327:4
brevity
243:2
bridging
321:8
brief
210:17 236:24
brings
158:4 234:17
broad
164:18 168:14
browser
88:2 140:1,3 288:15
294:5 295:24
browsers
283:25

Bruce
26:1
build
25:13 185:24
building
22:6
built
61:9,20 62:5 140:1
289:13 316:14
bullet
170:20
bunch
23:17 28:2 45:19 84:1
279:4 290:17 293:2
bureaus
45:24 49:11,20
burn
42:1 215:21
business
9:13,16,18 22:5,6 33:5
33:18 35:15 45:10
47:18,21 49:10 54:25
144:1 175:10 176:6
178:15,23 189:23
212:3
Butler
320:14
buy
119:7 162:7 285:13
buying
162:11 292:6
bylaws
81:8

186:14,15 188:9,21
Calera's
36:18 38:5 39:3 41:6
54:16
California
2:5,5,8 3:20,21 8:14,15
9:12,18,19 16:13 17:6
53:7 74:25 75:3,5
329:4
call
64:10 75:17 82:22 84:7
216:9 277:9
called
16:24 25:15 41:12
49:11 53:3 59:7
163:22 245:17 264:11
calls
13:2 33:13 63:17 67:4
70:8,24 71:13,21 72:3
72:20 73:21 82:20
84:14,23 87:11,17
88:19,25 89:25 90:8
90:14 92:16 102:10
103:13 106:14 107:10
113:9 127:4,13 130:1
130:9 131:18 134:22
135:11 139:10 143:22
178:16,24 179:8
182:11,19 188:18
210:5 213:8,17
221:15 224:4 227:8
228:11 245:6 254:7
283:16 324:25 326:25
Caltech
C
17:15 25:25 28:12
C
camera
8:2 22:3
268:23 269:3,5
Caere
candor
40:3,6,7 41:7,10
32:6
Caere's
capabilities
40:17
39:18 232:15
Calera
capacity
4:16 33:2,4,9,18,23
35:7 225:16
34:3,5 35:21 36:1
capital
37:24 38:8,18,20 39:7 34:19
39:22 40:2 42:16,21
capital-backed
42:24 43:3,6,25 48:7
186:11
48:9 56:4 58:15

Cappaert
3:12 8:20,20 9:24
161:19,21
caption
329:12,14
captioning
224:25
capture
108:16 297:23
captures
162:1
card
39:14 56:5 58:15,18
care
35:13 92:7
carefully
121:16 242:14 281:20
Carl
307:23 320:13
case
8:9 11:19,21,25 16:4
57:22 112:20 182:16
184:8 185:18 195:22
204:16 209:13,16,18
209:23 210:17 211:4
211:11,14 212:14
247:20 250:4 252:6
255:10 256:24 275:4
303:23,23 310:7
cases
140:17
cassettes
199:7,8
CAST
279:20,24
catalog
172:11
catalogs
296:16
catch
15:12
categories
263:22
category
17:4
cause
2:10 23:25 40:16 197:6

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

336
204:17 310:1 329:14
ceased
79:16
center
23:3,9,10,13,15 24:20
104:20 235:16 279:20
centered
115:14
centers
23:12
CEO
47:8,17 48:20 54:21
78:14,20,22 79:1
cerebral
53:17 86:8
certain
45:18 46:13,22 81:22
120:25 158:11 217:22
219:3 250:1 252:10
280:20 302:13,16
303:8
certainly
20:8,9 24:23 62:13
101:19 209:6 264:5
273:12 279:9,11
280:8 294:13 321:17
certainty
303:1,4
certificate
305:15 329:1
certificates
329:17
certification
239:17
certified
2:7 232:14 234:3
235:15 238:23 329:2
certify
329:4,10
certifying
155:10
CFO
47:12,25 48:13
Chafee
5:15 127:22 128:2,5,6
129:5,13,21,25
133:10 145:20 157:21

157:22 158:13 163:22
164:1 169:14 170:22
171:22 172:6,7
180:17,18,20,24
181:4,15,18 182:6
183:3 210:11
chairman
54:22 78:15,22 80:1,2
80:19
chairman's
79:15
challenges
257:12,19 258:2
259:10 262:23
chamber
27:19
chance
328:20
change
90:22 215:10,14 216:6
216:7 217:5 218:22
221:4 224:20,22
225:9,12 251:22
271:16
changed
76:13 172:20 219:4
changes
165:16,17,21,23
166:13 167:5 269:23
changing
271:17
chapter
191:1,6,10,19 192:12
192:17,20 196:18
character
29:24 30:1,8,17 32:14
33:20 36:15,20 37:10
44:4,11 45:16,19
46:17 113:22 115:1
193:9 200:21 202:22
284:18 320:24
characteristic
39:9
characteristics
202:21
characterize
60:21 64:1 100:10

245:11
characters
37:14 46:19 246:8
311:4
charge
96:7,13 162:4 234:25
235:9
charged
96:23 97:4 110:1,12
charitable
76:18,19
charity
53:8 55:4 75:22
chart
68:20,24
charter
76:15,18
cheaper
39:10 54:12 292:14
check
114:20 138:1 174:6,14
174:16,24 254:24
311:13,18 313:2,10
313:16,22 314:11,19
checked
314:3
checking
165:20 314:15
checklist
277:25 281:3
chief
34:17 48:1 81:6,9,11
81:21,22 236:24
children
146:10
child's
125:2
choose
121:11
chop
113:20 117:10
chopping
309:22
chose
289:23 291:23
Chris
242:21

Christopher
320:14
Circuit
7:4 237:23
circumstance
95:25
cite
216:19 225:15
cited
218:1 300:14
cites
217:13
citing
235:12 241:5
citizens
57:20
Civil
4:11 13:4 221:16
227:10
claim
36:19 67:17
claimed
70:6
claims
209:16
Clancy's
222:17 223:1,9
Clara
20:8,8
clarification
254:2
clarify
10:16 13:17 14:6
class
105:1
classroom
146:11
clause
159:2,6
clear
128:15 138:15 139:2
144:18 164:17 243:3
clearer
103:12
client
98:23
close

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PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

337
216:17
closed-circuit
265:19 269:6 276:7
cloud
133:17 134:10 166:5
clutter
151:4
coauthored
180:5,7
code
35:5 57:6,12 58:8
59:23 62:4 63:9
64:24 66:21 84:20
87:14 88:22 92:13,22
92:23 96:12 158:14
163:23
coins
44:14
colleague
9:24 21:5
collect
22:22
collected
73:17
collecting
174:1
collection
99:7 105:16 112:17
114:1 213:2,19
collections
104:6 222:25
colors
271:18
Columbia
1:2 8:9
column
233:12,13 234:21
238:16 240:22,23
combination
124:21 140:2 142:8
271:5
combined
35:12 169:2
come
11:4 15:12 61:15,22
62:2 104:24 112:4
244:25 245:5 294:14

comes
109:20 156:21 158:24
251:23 281:24
comfortable
167:9,18
Coming
64:4
command
22:23
commencing
2:3
comment
165:19 242:12,17
246:13
commentary
229:16
comments
242:7,10 243:4,7,18
commercial
289:9,15
committed
247:21
committee
189:15,17
common
30:7,19,23 31:1,3 46:4
58:23 104:23 115:2,6
115:17 123:18 178:18
203:19,21 204:18,19
204:20 224:7 245:12
264:9,21 270:7 273:6
274:9 277:10 312:17
commonly
55:5,19 84:7 142:4
268:20 269:2,25
275:14 282:1,5
283:25 289:2 293:18
commons
148:17
communicated
36:7
communications
13:3,6 41:12 227:9,22
community
100:16 106:3 108:2
167:20 180:13 186:3
221:12

companies
19:22 28:10,15,15,18
28:25 29:4 32:25
35:8 49:9 62:10
246:10 325:6
company
18:16 20:4,6,16 22:1,3
22:8 23:5,6,8 25:3
28:23 29:20 33:7,9,10
33:17,21 34:6 35:10
40:17,22 41:11,14
44:3,4,5 46:9 48:4
53:3,6,24 54:25 55:3
73:19,23 74:6,21 75:3
75:20 80:9,13 92:4,5
145:12 186:12
compare
290:6 311:7 326:19
compares
285:4 291:17
compensation
167:22 254:12,17,22
255:16 256:23
competence
30:21 31:9 32:10,21
33:14 39:6 40:14
156:4
competent
109:8,14,22 151:13,22
152:4,12,19,22,25
competitor
285:5 291:18
competitor/collabor...
236:25
compilations
176:25
complaint
16:5
complementary
49:25 50:6
complete
37:9 109:19 175:14
294:25 329:9
completed
86:3
completely
11:6,12 61:6 107:19

114:15 122:24 153:17
276:4,9 278:9
completing
17:2
complex
217:18 218:2
complexity
217:20 219:13,15
220:2,20 221:3 305:3
306:3,5,9 312:22
compliance
260:25
complicated
75:14 121:20 219:3
complies
182:9
complimentary
111:11
components
188:8
compound
31:9 36:16 38:1,10
49:7 50:1 51:11,22
52:8,16 57:18 58:13
60:8 62:23 63:23
84:5 85:6 87:22 89:6
97:18 102:11 134:23
240:14 248:8 252:14
267:21 289:7 315:12
comprehensive
152:18 178:10 183:24
222:24
comprehensively
52:1
comprises
144:1
computer
23:6 28:22 29:16 56:3
57:21,22,23 88:9
200:7 264:15 270:25
283:24 294:2
computer's
58:19
computer-aided
329:7
computer-synthesized
264:17

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

338
comp'ed
161:4
conceive
322:1
concentrate
129:13 305:16
concentrating
189:7
concentration
16:25 17:19
concept
131:16
concern
100:15,24 106:7
132:20 168:4
concerned
131:13 167:7 176:7
201:11
concerning
302:4
concerns
101:22 102:22 132:17
133:2 164:24 165:3
252:19
concluded
223:12 328:24
conclusion
33:14 63:18 67:5 70:9
70:24 71:13,22 72:3
72:20 73:22 82:21
84:14,23 87:11,17
88:19 89:1,25 90:8,15
92:16 107:11 113:10
127:4,14 130:2,10
134:22 135:11 143:23
178:17,25 179:8
182:12,20 210:6
224:4 228:12 254:8
300:2 327:1
conditions
174:11,18 175:1,5
conduct
76:22 308:10 315:4,9
316:1,20 318:13
conducted
296:17
confidential

1:15 77:6,12,17,21
90:17,21 91:13
130:23,25 131:2
165:8
confirm
149:4 152:13 155:17
215:4
confirmed
152:4
confirming
291:8
confirms
151:14,23
confused
193:23 209:9 307:2
confusing
193:17 194:24 195:12
196:2,19 197:5
200:16 205:19,25
206:9 207:2 226:22
230:13 233:6 235:24
237:15 240:14 241:10
261:13 263:2 271:24
273:10 277:3 288:23
290:10,22 296:24
298:7,14 299:25
308:16,25 311:1
315:22 316:4,12,23
317:19 320:4 321:24
322:11 327:1
confusion
220:12
conjunction
80:13
connected
76:22
connection
255:18
consent
64:6 143:1 175:19
consider
258:14,20,23 264:23
265:6,11,17,23
266:21 267:8 268:2
281:14
considerations
303:16

considered
269:9
considering
275:19
consistent
42:23 43:5 50:13 51:14
235:25 250:9,16
consortium
205:10,23
constantly
257:7,8
Constitution
121:2
constraints
96:13
consumers
168:10 289:12
consummated
40:19
contacted
138:5
contain
176:12 207:13
contained
229:17 248:10 251:5
320:25
containing
309:11,15 319:11,15
content
13:19 31:4 43:8 50:12
107:13,22 108:6,7
112:13,23 113:7,8,12
113:15 118:2,20
119:10,13,15,17
120:25 121:6,17,17
122:3,18 124:2 125:5
130:6 134:9 139:24
140:11,21 141:5,11
141:18,24 166:3
167:21 171:14 172:9
177:5,5 178:3,7,11,13
178:21 192:4,8
193:20 195:21 230:24
250:2 252:10,18
253:2 260:10 266:11
274:5 275:20 276:25
277:1 280:9 293:15

309:12 310:19 311:3
319:11 324:23
contents
120:8,16 176:2 239:22
context
44:8 49:21 85:16,21
88:5 109:13 138:19
139:1 146:25 191:24
194:8 195:18,24
212:5 245:15 247:12
261:20 272:24 273:1
273:3 275:1,12 281:4
290:4,17 297:2
continue
76:25 111:18 158:22
216:1 259:18 294:23
continued
5:1 6:1 7:1 54:11
continues
186:8
continuing
239:15 240:22 319:19
321:14
contractor
218:4,7
contractors
178:9 218:9
contracts
48:5 111:24
contrary
41:9
contrast
123:14 217:9 271:17
271:17
contribute
231:19
contributing
190:24
control
29:10 53:16 113:25
114:3,13,19,25
116:24 117:12,16,18
125:17 126:11 236:1
236:4 293:5,13
controls
34:20 241:14 263:18
293:3

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

339
conversation
47:6 75:18 167:6 173:7
193:15 194:10
conversations
13:18 101:13,20
106:17 165:24 166:14
converse
166:23 299:20
conversed
167:4
conversion
290:5,7
convert
202:12 289:4 292:20
293:19
converted
204:2
converting
217:18
converts
239:25
convinced
190:2
Cool
243:22
copies
30:20 105:13 114:15
128:8 136:20 169:19
230:5,8 231:17,20
326:22
coprocessor
39:14 58:18
copy
120:4 127:11 128:22
132:22,23 135:7
165:18 191:19 230:20
231:1,11,13 263:17
302:14 303:25 309:21
327:20
copying
158:9 226:14 227:25
247:24 248:1 288:12
326:24
copyright
57:7,14 58:9 59:24
62:6 63:10 65:1 67:2
68:24 84:21 87:15

88:23 92:14 98:24
126:20,23 127:1,17
127:21,23 128:24
129:4,8,11 134:20
135:4,7 145:19
156:20 157:19 158:8
158:17,25 159:3,11
160:1 163:22 164:16
169:9 170:4,5,23,24
171:9,15,18 172:4,6
189:15 209:19 232:22
245:22 246:19 321:20
copyrightable
42:24
copyrighted
95:9,11 107:8 113:8,12
127:11 128:9 135:3
135:13 136:10 137:11
148:20,22 155:5
158:10 163:8 164:2,7
171:12 173:12 238:25
copyrights
4:16 5:10 7:12 42:21
242:5
core
198:1
corner
144:19 230:17
corp
22:4
corporate
72:5 75:16 82:23 83:1
corporation
53:8 75:5 81:12,13
82:16
correct
11:2,6,8 13:25 14:10
15:25 16:15,18 17:7,9
17:12,25 18:4,13,22
19:5,9,12,16,19 20:3
23:4 25:21 27:1
34:13 36:2 37:19
39:23 47:10 49:2,4,18
50:21 54:24 59:9
60:21 65:9 74:22,23
75:1 77:12,13 79:3
80:23 93:12,22 94:7

98:7 99:12 102:25
104:7 107:23 112:8
116:8 128:17 129:1
137:3 139:5 147:24
180:8,19 203:1 208:2
249:13 261:23 275:25
276:5,12 281:7
284:24 297:18,22
310:13 312:12,16
316:13,24 319:12
321:3 324:9,11,17,24
325:2,15 327:15
correctly
97:10
cortical
262:16
cost
39:15 160:25 216:20
217:11,14,16,20
218:2,4,19,23 219:22
221:4 306:10
costs
160:18 217:16 218:3,5
218:8,25 220:3,21
221:1 305:8,9
counsel
3:1 8:16 11:2 12:11,23
13:6,21,24 14:2,7
38:3,13 48:6 68:13
77:13,19 90:24 91:10
98:12 142:24 143:25
151:1 161:7 165:15
165:18 174:15,22
175:9 177:9,20 178:3
178:9,9 179:10
183:11 184:23 189:12
190:13 194:4 203:2
211:5,10 214:16
220:5 229:12 237:22
238:5,10 243:1 251:7
255:8 256:2,25 263:6
303:17 307:16,21
309:11,15 310:6,11
310:20 312:8 315:2
329:11
counsel's
139:2 176:1 191:21,23

221:23 227:13
count
177:12
counterfeit
47:1
countries
110:10,21 161:2
County
20:9
couple
10:2 23:16 209:10
298:24
Courier
37:20
course
22:25 117:15,23
124:11 178:14,22
181:2 282:20 307:19
courses
18:7
court
1:1 2:10 6:16 7:4 8:8
8:25 10:8 11:22,23
12:9 21:10 26:8 31:8
208:20 228:22,23
237:5,8,23 239:15
240:24 251:16 303:25
court's
229:1,8 236:16 237:6
239:10 240:11
cover
137:22 305:15 321:7
321:17
coverage
209:12
covered
126:23 129:12
covers
196:4 294:10
co-owner
73:25 74:7
CPU
58:19
crawled
29:16
create
28:5,5 32:18 161:10,11

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

340
169:3 179:5 183:17
199:5 212:9 230:4
267:13 283:2 284:19
287:24 288:4,10,25
created
31:4,13,23 50:23 68:14
76:7,16,21 83:14
116:12,23 122:4,14
147:9 161:9,17
168:12 173:7 177:6
178:3,8,11,13 207:15
217:10 287:3,6
309:21 320:17,23
creates
319:25
creating
30:19 31:14,24 177:9
287:18
creation
15:23 185:19
creative
148:17
credentials
109:10 152:21
credibility
190:1
criteria
149:17
CSR
1:25 329:25
curious
193:14
current
29:10 71:19 74:5 75:13
123:19 172:18,19
216:5 217:21 225:17
291:14 292:13
currently
48:25 240:2
Curriculum
4:12
custom
45:5 46:17,20
customer
39:20 47:18 54:1
customers
34:4,8 35:6 36:7 39:4

45:22 46:7,22 47:3,21
49:12 50:10 53:19,22
customizable
60:22
customization
34:7
customized
200:23
cut
218:19
C-A-E-R-E
40:3
C-H-A-F-E-E
128:5
D
D
3:12 8:2
DAISY
205:1,2,10,13,13,22
206:2,23 207:5,8,13
207:25 208:1,2,5
244:13,17,20,22,25
245:5,8
DAISY-processed
207:25
Dan
223:9
Daniel
222:17
data
22:22 26:5 108:17
174:1 176:25 241:4
database
46:12,15
date
8:10 69:3,10,11 83:16
83:17 99:18,23 170:5
175:8 214:6 224:23
225:10 229:10 242:5
dated
184:3 185:23 214:13
216:2,21 219:6
day
11:6 329:19
days
77:9 91:13 111:16
DC

11:21
deaf
270:13
deaf/blind
270:8
deal
35:6 40:16,18
dealing
157:25
deals
47:21
dealt
168:4
decade
164:21
decent
212:1 240:16
decide
77:25 125:17
decided
238:6
decision
7:5 228:24 229:10,18
236:16 237:6,23,25
238:12 240:3,17
declaration
6:4,9 210:24 214:1,2,2
215:4,14 216:10
217:1,4,10 219:6,9
221:10 222:11 224:17
224:23 225:10 226:24
227:3 234:24 235:8
235:13 241:5,8
304:13,21 306:4
325:20 326:10
declarations
210:16 211:21 212:12
DECtalk
188:10
dedicated
142:19
defects
24:3
defendant
1:9 3:17 6:11 8:23
182:15 250:3
defendants

209:22 210:3 212:9
228:22 229:24 230:2
230:8 232:9 234:23
235:7
defense
307:16 309:11,14
310:6,11,20 312:8
315:2
defenses
210:2,8
deficit
149:11
define
23:20 29:7,24 37:3
73:16 85:16 109:13
118:2,19 281:23
301:4
defined
109:23 128:8
defines
301:7
definition
37:2 117:21 118:21
181:18 182:10,17
210:21 250:9,17
260:15 263:23 281:1
282:4 290:15 300:22
301:5
definitions
150:10 286:23
degree
16:10,13 17:5,16 25:5
delay
105:18
delete
137:23,23
deleted
159:4
deliver
218:15
delivered
208:1,6
delivering
39:20 205:3,14 207:9
delivers
83:24 169:3
demand

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

341
216:23 298:19 299:4
299:23 300:11 301:15
302:20 303:11
demonstrative
251:25
Department
112:4,10 218:14
depending
119:3 204:5 293:9
312:21
depends
94:23 204:11,13
deployed
107:21
deponent
329:5
Depos
8:13 9:1
deposed
11:14 12:4
deposition
1:13 2:1 7:18 8:4,13
10:1,3 12:12,16,17
14:8 15:23 21:11,12
30:15 41:15 50:14
68:8 69:13 77:9 91:8
98:8 143:6 179:22
185:2,6,9 190:15
208:12 211:15 229:3
237:11 241:19 248:25
249:3 303:19,21
304:4,11 305:13
310:1,1,7 328:22,24
depositions
320:7,12
depository
235:16
derivative
319:25
derivatives
319:22
describe
61:2 80:18 83:3 92:20
147:21 156:3 162:21
168:23 170:15 185:21
231:12 244:17 269:19
310:19

described
45:6 47:3 53:19 55:19
83:20 116:10,24
117:18 122:5 128:21
142:4,4 162:20 194:1
194:21 197:6 203:14
209:19 282:1 308:10
308:18
describes
197:10 198:14 231:9
235:11 240:24 262:9
describing
82:25 131:20 162:16
193:12 274:11
description
4:8 5:2 6:2 7:2 117:8
146:2 186:16 188:20
189:3 190:13 222:17
223:2,9 225:21 226:1
239:10 240:11
descriptions
147:21 216:23,25
229:16
design
22:20 37:7,13 164:25
165:3 278:8
designate
77:11 91:12
designated
9:22
designations
91:14
designed
27:8 56:3 57:20 59:1
60:17 61:6 62:25
84:8 85:9,14 114:25
155:2 274:17 278:21
Designers
37:7
desire
299:13
desktop
56:15
despeckling
202:19
destination
45:18 63:1

destruct
22:23
detail
79:9 212:21 221:7
292:19
details
128:11
detect
23:23 24:2 27:8 115:1
detected
27:21 28:3
determination
155:20
determine
299:3,4 308:2,12,21
317:15 318:22 319:22
determined
109:6
determining
157:12
developed
32:8,17 46:22
developer
47:20
developing
5:19 186:2
development
47:22 76:25 81:15
developmental
107:1 108:3
device
26:10 56:2 88:9 266:11
268:6,17 269:2 311:3
devices
268:7
devote
216:25
diagnoses
262:11
diesel
25:13
difference
167:3 285:16,17
290:12
different
23:17 28:1 36:17,18
37:7,8,10 39:19 45:1

58:22 59:5 61:6 74:4
75:16 82:13 94:1
105:2 131:8 132:8,11
146:9 150:4 157:2
167:15 169:5 204:7
207:14 210:25 217:13
253:4 258:6 270:5,6
275:3 285:15 286:10
288:15 289:17 293:9
294:6 302:7 315:17
differentiate
166:11
differently
131:9
difficult
155:13
digital
30:20 31:5,14,25 82:3
92:11 100:3,18
116:10 121:6 133:8
133:12 134:18 139:8
141:18 142:9 164:2
168:2 170:8 171:9
172:16,16,21 183:19
200:9 207:11 212:17
213:6 222:24 226:2
230:4,8,20 231:1,7,17
231:19,20,25 232:11
232:19 233:4,8,15,22
233:23 234:5 235:10
235:22 238:21 239:20
239:22 240:12 241:15
245:9 247:22 263:17
266:10 267:17,20
268:6,7 287:4 299:23
326:12,20,22
digitally
31:4 117:11 127:10
128:22 207:9 287:6
digitization
230:9,19
digitized
104:5
dilatory
21:6
direct
171:25 202:2

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

342
directed
12:18
directions
18:10
directly
139:20 140:17 183:15
193:9 195:21 200:24
202:7
director
26:2 48:25
directors
80:3 81:24
disabilities
53:11,12,14,15 60:18
61:7 78:5 82:4 84:9
85:10,12,13,15,17
86:11,13 99:9,11
104:22 107:1 108:4
109:17 122:3,14,17
126:25 128:10,10
130:8 131:11 145:5
145:23 149:14 150:12
150:12 152:4,13
156:15,17 158:23
164:5 169:4,13,18,23
170:11,25 180:15
182:2 183:22 186:24
187:2,4 189:22 192:3
193:21 201:16 205:4
220:4,22 226:12,18
228:2 232:14 234:3
238:23 239:5 240:10
249:21 258:7,11
259:6,17 260:15,20
260:24 261:10 262:10
262:12 266:14 275:20
281:16,19,22 282:4
299:1,13
disability
85:18,25 86:4,6,14,16
86:20,22 97:17,22
98:6 101:15 102:3
109:3,6 149:5,19,24
150:7,22 151:11,15
151:21,24 155:4,12
156:5,8 159:23
163:10 180:13 196:6

239:1,1,11,18 263:15
274:22 276:22,23
277:24
disabled
76:15 104:17,20,24
105:3,9 132:22 201:4
205:15 234:8 262:5
277:21
disagree
301:20
disciplinary
137:6,9
disclose
13:13 76:17 77:9,21
discontinue
137:25
discount
46:5
discover
305:3 308:5
discovery
137:7
discuss
179:14,15 250:15
258:10
discussed
65:6 102:1 122:15
126:12 142:23 165:9
172:22 192:2 193:19
196:5 223:21 228:7
250:10 265:3 275:7
306:3
discussing
21:7,21,22 126:16
discussion
26:17 64:13 175:23
221:9 227:2 260:10
263:11
dismantling
329:15
disorder
149:12
display
265:25 268:9 269:10
269:12 270:9,10
displayed
272:21

displays
200:6,24 269:15
distinction
281:9 285:16,17
286:15,20 288:18
distinguish
223:20
distinguishing
138:23
distribute
127:11 128:23
distributed
169:20
distribution
158:9 170:1 183:17
226:15 228:1
district
1:1,2 6:16 8:8,8 135:18
136:12 228:22 229:1
229:8 237:6
dive
248:18
Diverse
46:3
divide
47:14
divides
219:11
divine
147:4
division
23:8 82:18,23
divisions
132:8
DMCA
171:13,16,20 172:2
docket
214:16
doctors
109:16
document
4:9,22 5:5,14,22 6:3,8
7:9,13 21:17 30:9,24
31:13,18,23 37:6
41:22 42:2,8 45:8
50:20 51:5 56:9
68:14 69:5,20 74:17

86:5 119:25 120:1,2
120:18 121:14,18,19
123:8 124:3 143:13
152:16 161:9,12
180:4 184:4 185:13
194:25 196:7 197:17
198:2,20 199:10
214:21,23 215:5,7
216:1 224:19,20
226:23 229:21 241:23
241:25 242:23 251:13
252:23 261:12 263:12
267:14 271:11 272:7
277:2,19 287:11,18
287:24 288:13,13,20
293:6,10 296:24
298:3,11,15,25
300:12,14 304:2
305:23 306:22 307:10
311:25 312:10 313:1
314:4,20 317:24
318:8 322:19,22
324:8
documents
14:13 15:19 30:3 31:19
45:25 46:1 62:10
85:24 184:18 191:3
191:12 207:10 213:24
214:22 241:1 300:25
304:11 305:3 325:13
326:7
doing
20:21 25:4 35:9 38:15
45:16,18,19 46:4
83:18 96:14 166:16
174:10 193:8 289:24
295:9,15 299:17
317:20
dollars
285:9 292:15,16,16
306:13
Dolphin
270:24,24
domain
127:18 128:25 148:16
232:21
donate

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

343
100:3
donations
111:25
dotted
81:23
double
115:18
double-check
124:10
doubt
143:20
download
98:2 118:16 140:5,8,17
162:9 163:8 167:21
297:6,15 328:3
downloaded
135:14 136:22 137:15
140:25
downloading
100:17 193:10
downloads
136:12 162:8
dozen
180:6
Dr
26:1,4,20
draw
183:2
drawn
180:20
DRM
172:24 326:15,21
327:2
drop
181:14
dropping
145:16
drops
203:15 313:16
dual
81:10
Duke
3:13
duly
2:11 9:5 329:5
dust
23:22,23,25

duties
16:9 19:17 105:14
35:16 47:23 48:11,19
112:4,5,9,10 132:10
79:13,23 80:2,18,24
156:22 157:11 181:15
dyslexia
181:24 218:14 300:16
18:19 53:14 86:8 87:4 educational
155:12 266:17 275:21 1:4 8:6 19:14 109:18
dyslexic
131:11 132:6,18
43:18
252:20 305:24
D.C
educator
3:6
135:18
educators
E
301:23
E
EFF
8:2,2 40:8
14:2
earlier
effectively
106:16 117:8 122:5
94:24 101:14 108:16
166:3 172:22 192:1
155:14 166:22 239:2
193:15 194:10 280:17 efficiency
322:14
167:2
earliest
efficient
188:21
283:3
early
effort
29:19 40:10 79:16
217:17
165:18 279:19
eh
earthquake
132:15
29:18 304:15,17
eight
easier
185:15
93:5 121:6 180:14
either
easily
28:14,21 61:13 80:13
136:14 137:19 201:13
86:13 88:2 120:6
311:2
122:23 128:23 139:24
easy
153:17 182:22 196:21
57:19 64:1
208:1 258:18 297:15
eBook
310:5,6 319:4 329:11
84:8 85:9 88:1 94:2
elaborate
142:20
80:3
eBooks
elapsed
169:12 244:3,8,12
77:10
economic
electrical
159:15 160:2 180:16
16:20 18:5,10 19:1
ed
22:14 27:24 28:22
101:3,7 131:12 157:15
29:9,10
157:18,25
electronic
edge
14:2 116:11 200:6
36:23
201:13 245:25 263:18
edition
296:18 297:3,15
252:20 283:8
299:21 307:16 308:2
education

308:13 310:10 317:9
317:15
element
263:13 291:9
elementary
27:9,21
elements
117:17 188:16 207:14
277:23
elevated
279:21
eligibility
157:12
eligible
108:23 110:23
emboss
267:12
embosser
267:10,15 268:8
embossers
200:5
emit
24:1
emotion
149:13
employ
117:11
employed
22:12 23:2,14 24:21
25:2 29:5 35:22
241:15
employee
177:12
employees
23:16 138:21 139:3
177:6 178:4,8
employing
326:20
encompass
121:12
encompassed
194:10
encompasses
207:11
encountered
203:22 204:1
endeavor

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

344
28:17
engage
125:23
engaged
24:24 322:5
engagement
184:17
engaging
165:12
engine
25:13,14 119:6 289:24
engineer
19:1 22:14 43:7
engineering
16:17,20 18:5,10 19:21
19:23 21:23,23 25:5
28:22 76:24
engineers
51:15
engines
20:20 204:21 294:6
295:25
English
149:15
enlarged
194:17 274:9
ensemble
56:8
ensure
158:21 164:18 167:17
ensuring
160:2
enter
255:17
entered
230:2
enterprise
18:25 20:5 22:7 186:5
entire
15:21 73:18 77:11
105:6,7 154:21
172:11 191:16,16
242:23 254:5 311:25
312:14 314:19 321:9
322:15
entities
75:16 77:7 102:21

181:19 209:10
entitled
4:9,14,19,22 5:5,8,14
5:18,22 6:3,8 7:9,13
171:9 242:3
entity
82:23 83:1 128:7
129:25 130:4 156:13
169:16 182:10
entrepreneurial
186:1
environment
28:2
environmental
186:25 187:17,25
epileptic
280:22,24
equating
261:9
equipment
49:13,16 57:24
equivalent
30:5,10 174:7
eReader
97:11
error
115:17 123:25 124:8
124:24,25 125:10
204:6,12,13,18
290:25 312:23
errors
115:3,6 124:9 125:1
203:14,19,22,25
278:18 290:18,19,24
312:18 313:3,4,10
314:5,6,9,11,20
320:25 321:5,12,15
321:19,21,22 322:1,9
322:18
especially
119:16 131:12 173:4
ESQ
3:4,12,19
essence
180:11
essentially
37:13 81:7 156:1 162:8

171:8 187:24 205:11
established
156:13
estimate
113:11
et
1:5 6:19 8:6 229:9
evaluate
184:17 249:25
evaluation
252:10,17 253:24
evaluations
253:1,9,18
events
125:7
everybody
183:20
evidence
251:23 327:3
evolution
38:18
exact
24:18 99:23
exactly
25:24 77:4 217:23
310:2
EXAMINATION
4:4 9:7
EXAMINATIONS
4:2
examine
242:10 308:17
examined
2:12 9:6 275:18 314:4
327:12
examining
284:16 293:10
example
31:6,12,23 37:14,17
44:13 85:23 88:10,11
119:18 120:1,8,25
123:12,12 125:4
126:24 135:16 142:11
147:10 204:14 239:4
247:1,23 262:16,17
263:18 266:16 270:2
270:8 278:23 280:19

280:23 287:5,9,18
288:10 300:9 321:11
examples
150:10 152:19 153:1
196:11 264:1
Excel
293:11
exception
111:13 126:20,23
128:24 129:4,9
157:19 163:21 164:16
170:23 189:21
exceptions
127:17,21 129:12
exchange
230:7
excited
132:14
excluded
234:8
excluding
159:6
exclusively
169:22 170:9
excuse
33:4 90:3 203:1 218:18
executive
35:11,13 81:6,9,11,21
212:3
exemption
145:19 158:25 159:3
159:11,20 160:1
exhibit
4:8,9,12,14,19,22 5:2,3
5:5,8,12,14,18,22 6:2
6:3,8,15 7:2,3,9,13,19
7:20 12:10,12,16,18
14:9 21:11,12 34:10
41:15,19 42:16,22
43:2 50:14,18 51:2,19
52:3,23 53:2 68:8,12
68:20 69:13,19 70:7
71:3,20 72:1 73:4,20
74:14 78:23 98:8,11
98:18,22 124:5 143:6
143:13,21 144:1,12
144:12,21,25 146:3

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

345
147:25 148:24 150:9
152:11 153:2,23
154:10 155:7 156:10
160:11,15 162:23
163:16 168:8 169:8
171:2 172:14 173:21
175:5 176:3,18,21
177:5 178:3,8,14,22
179:6,19,22 180:3,10
181:1 182:25 185:6
185:13,16 188:2,25
190:15,19,25 191:15
192:12 193:25 194:9
194:22,22 195:9,25
196:13 201:7 202:16
204:25 208:12 214:3
214:9,12,17 215:10
217:8 219:10 221:10
222:1,10,12,12
224:17 226:1,8 227:4
229:3,7 230:17
234:18 236:13 237:11
237:21 238:15 240:20
240:23 241:19,23
242:20 246:16 247:6
247:10 248:25 249:8
251:5 252:7 257:7
303:20,23 304:3,10
304:22 305:13,20,23
306:4,20 309:5 311:7
314:23 319:20 323:5
325:19,23 326:8,11
326:15
exhibits
4:7 5:1 6:1 7:1,17
69:18 213:23 214:25
251:25
exist
278:17
existence
13:18 33:11 38:3 69:3
184:9
existing
56:6
exists
184:12
expanded

199:24
expect
124:6,24 274:21
expense
105:18 218:17
expenses
254:23
expensive
54:13
experience
226:9 259:9
experienced
262:24
experiments
27:8
expert
7:14 9:23 13:7,9 14:11
14:12,18 15:24 16:4
16:12 149:3 184:16
210:19,22,25 211:4
239:19 249:19 251:3
251:9,20 252:5 255:8
298:16 307:3
expertise
109:17 155:18 250:23
experts
255:8
expert's
29:22 211:11,19
248:16 249:9 251:5
251:10 252:4,7
256:12 257:5,6 259:1
269:18 283:5 306:17
314:23 323:5,17,19
expiration
71:25
expired
71:23
explain
79:9 252:1
explained
189:19
explaining
171:20
explains
226:24
explanation

102:5 103:2 105:20
319:20 326:14
explanations
102:7
explicitly
167:4
explore
153:22
express
100:15 106:6
expressed
100:24 101:22 102:21
132:21 184:11 303:16
expression
160:8
extant
33:8
extensive
168:9 241:1 263:11
extent
13:2,5 19:7 61:8 227:8
232:3
extra
40:8 159:2
extreme
204:14
extremely
181:2
eyes
262:17
e-mail
3:8,16,23 163:14
F
face
209:7
faced
257:13,19 258:2,15,21
fact
197:7 299:9,20 300:13
301:13 302:6,18
307:20 309:25 310:5
316:7
facts
216:2 300:5
faculty
213:2 224:8 234:8,10
fair

29:22 191:22,24 210:8
fake
57:22
fall
17:3 285:12
fallen
277:20
familiar
11:23 51:16,25 52:10
52:18 114:7 127:22
190:20 208:17 212:2
234:14 285:7
familiarity
212:20,24
familiarize
41:21 50:19
Fantasy
247:15,17 248:12
far
16:2 77:17 176:14
179:9 302:8
fast
25:13
faster
25:14 54:12 183:22
feature
46:21 89:8 92:18,20
93:5,10 95:19,21
96:17
features
36:6 169:1
fed
115:18
federal
11:22 13:4 208:20
221:16 227:10 256:6
Federation
210:20
fee
93:14,19 94:5,6,8,10
94:12,14,16,18,23,25
94:25 95:3,12,25 96:1
96:7,23 97:4 110:1,6
110:11 162:10 163:10
255:8
feed
56:16 115:18

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

346
feeding
35:14
feel
147:17 259:19
feeling
37:13
fees
96:13 111:5,21
fell
54:8
felt
322:21
Fenwick
2:4 3:18 8:14,23 13:24
14:25
Fermi
26:24 27:4
Fiction
247:16 248:12
fide
164:4
field
28:17 37:5 187:12
236:25 259:11 269:4
298:24 301:25 302:2
302:10
fields
186:21
fifth
71:5
figure
195:17
figured
131:3
figures
216:3 217:14 225:17
file
30:10 115:20 116:4,11
116:12,22,25 122:4,5
122:14,18 137:16
140:5,9,16,17 202:13
206:7,11,25 207:16
231:4 285:21 308:7
309:11,15,21 310:10
310:20 311:8,14,19
312:7 315:1 319:10
319:15,23,25 320:15

320:17,22,24 322:6
322:15
filed
236:24
files
100:4,18 133:12
134:18 183:19 231:3
filling
174:24
final
117:17
finance
34:11,15 35:3,18 47:12
47:24 48:13
finances
20:19
financial
34:17,19,21 48:2,3
73:12 81:22
find
118:14 119:6 124:12
137:16 242:12 253:13
253:25 259:1,21
277:6 279:4,10
296:18 297:6,11,14
297:20 300:13 313:8
313:14,20 314:17
327:2
fine
53:16 64:12 104:3
202:21 262:17 283:18
finely
55:24 79:9
finer
86:13 306:14
FineReader
284:3,12,17 285:1,4,11
289:3,14 290:8 291:1
294:1 295:6,21 312:8
fingerprint
136:6,17 137:23
fingerprints
136:10
finish
107:16
finished
21:22 79:7

first
2:11 28:10 29:19 32:8
42:14 43:1 54:6
69:11 79:16 94:4
119:12 120:15 124:15
148:5 149:14 156:20
163:18 180:9 183:25
184:8 185:21 192:8
192:11,16,19,24
213:25 215:25 216:6
218:3 227:12,15
239:9 243:25 249:17
264:13 272:13 283:6
285:18 309:5 314:10
321:6 329:5
five
327:5
flashing
280:20
flies
43:16
flip
120:13
Floor
3:20
fluids
29:9
focus
118:7 121:11 154:1
257:12,18 258:1
263:8 277:23 326:9
focused
17:21 160:3 258:7
262:22 263:19 309:5
focuses
107:12
focusing
154:17 155:8 272:13
273:1 305:14 317:3
follow
157:10 173:5 277:25
280:12,17
following
19:22 65:11 67:9 77:1
183:4 261:21 268:13
313:2
follows

9:6 225:7
follow-up
78:1
font
37:3,6,9,12,12,18,20
37:22
fonts
36:21,21,22 37:7,8
Footnote
232:6
foregoing
329:6,8,12
foreign
209:8,10
form
30:23,25 44:10 113:15
113:20 118:13 139:14
156:7 191:4 198:21
201:14 206:15 245:25
267:17 269:16 299:23
308:14
formal
19:7,8,10,13,17 57:11
59:22
format
39:19 116:4,7,22 139:8
141:1 169:20,21
170:1,2 205:13,17,22
206:2 207:9,16
244:14,17,18,20,25
245:5 266:7 297:7,7
297:16,16 299:15,21
302:15 310:15 320:2
formats
170:7 299:14
formerly
76:12
forms
45:8,10 201:4 270:6
forward
102:7 181:9
found
55:17 137:11 232:25
233:18 242:17 289:25
318:6,14,16
foundation
14:3 40:14 54:5,18

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

347
59:16,25 61:18,25
62:7,18 63:6,12,18
64:21 65:3,16,21 66:1
66:6,11,16,23 67:5,14
67:24 68:5 70:9,24
71:13,22 72:3,13,20
72:25 73:6,22 84:14
84:23 85:7 87:11,17
87:23 88:19 89:1,7,19
89:25 90:8 92:16
95:6,16 96:4 97:1,7
97:19 98:1 99:4,16,22
100:6 101:1,11
102:11 103:7 106:10
106:15,24 107:11
108:12,25 110:4,14
111:25 112:7 113:3
113:10,18 114:6,23
115:23 116:14 117:3
122:8,21 123:5
125:13,21 126:9
131:18 133:15,21
134:22 135:11 136:8
137:5 139:11,22
140:7,14,24 141:8,20
142:2,18 144:14
147:2 155:24 156:25
157:6 165:6 168:19
171:6 173:1,23
174:21 178:6,17,25
179:8 182:12 188:19
190:11 202:11 205:9
213:8,17 224:5,13
228:12 236:9 245:7
292:3 301:2 302:5
325:1
founded
74:15 130:13 145:13
186:4,17 190:9
founder
34:10 35:4,17 47:9,17
48:21 54:22 78:15,20
78:22 79:2
founding
108:22 133:19 190:5
four
27:25 39:13 188:8

196:11
frame
27:25 177:24
Francisco
3:21
fraud
47:2
free
94:12 110:24 111:7,17
160:22 162:3 279:13
285:8,8 289:20,25
290:6 291:21 292:7
294:1 295:8,21 312:9
Freedom
55:9,16 65:7 67:9
71:11 72:10 76:2,14
270:20
frequently
120:17 137:13 156:1
157:7 171:8,16
206:14 289:10
front
12:15 21:8 41:18 50:17
176:19 213:22 237:21
249:7 303:18 304:2
304:12 305:11,15
326:8
Frontier
14:2
Fruchterman
1:14 2:1,9 4:13 6:5,10
7:15 8:5 9:4,11,20
11:6,14 12:10,15 16:8
19:6 21:5,11,16 29:23
31:12 32:7,24 36:14
41:18 42:13 43:24
44:8 50:17 51:7
52:22 53:3 56:11
64:17 68:11,19 69:17
71:2 74:14 75:25
77:19 82:1 91:8,21
98:10,11,17 99:1
117:6,21 143:12
144:11,15 145:13
155:22 160:17 163:3
165:1 170:13 172:13
176:18 180:2 182:24

185:3,9,12 188:15,24
190:5,18 191:14
192:2 196:14 201:21
202:15 203:12 204:24
208:17 211:9 213:22
214:15 215:8 218:18
219:8 221:6,25
224:16 227:12 228:9
229:6,20 236:12,15
237:14,20 238:4,15
239:9 240:10,19
241:22,23 242:6
243:15,25 247:4
248:5 249:4,7,8,14
254:5 255:17 256:8
257:1,4,11,24 258:13
262:19 264:4 265:5
266:20 268:12 269:17
272:12 274:14 276:16
281:10 282:6 283:2
285:14 295:19 296:15
300:20 304:9,20
305:11 307:15 309:10
310:17 315:6 316:7
317:4 320:10 323:2
323:13 324:21 325:17
327:12 328:14,22
Fruchterman's
215:4 248:16
fuel
22:20,21
fulfill
105:3
full
9:10 31:19 73:7 114:12
151:2 183:2 189:4
202:25 223:22 233:25
238:24 251:19 264:7
272:14 274:15 285:18
308:14 309:6 310:18
329:8
fuller
14:15
fully
226:15 228:1
full-text
208:2 232:12,15,23

277:5 315:4,9 316:1
316:20
fun
43:17
function
120:5,9
functional
118:7,11 119:12,20
120:19 121:15 153:6
153:18 192:2,8
193:20 276:18 277:9
277:23 278:6 280:3
280:12 291:9
functionally
85:19 276:22 281:23
fundamental
263:13
funder
112:8
funding
111:22 112:3 218:14
fundraising
81:19
further
169:25 215:12 329:10
future
240:8
F.Supp.2d
6:20 229:10
F.3d
7:8 237:25
G
G
8:2
gained
190:1
garbled
204:9 214:17 215:1
gas
28:2,4
gases
29:9
gather
180:18 198:15
general
25:2 39:9 42:8 44:10
79:23 152:8 164:7

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

348
165:14,20 179:10
212:19,23 213:18
239:13
generally
30:3 80:18 105:4
113:24 115:24 116:3
139:13 149:15 153:14
198:19 230:14 258:9
259:12 269:19,24
271:25 273:5 279:13
281:23 288:3 292:14
292:18 293:12
generate
202:7
generates
280:25
gesture
246:20,22
gestures
10:12
getting
35:14 39:19 90:17
162:11 195:20 219:2
237:15 307:1
give
11:7 15:9 111:9 124:22
165:17 278:23 303:25
given
11:5 78:8 118:8 120:2
121:13 196:11 218:4
274:23 283:15 310:20
311:8 313:2 315:2
giving
10:5 77:10,10 109:19
189:24
glad
77:14
glass
268:20
glean
272:20 293:14
global
145:9
glow
25:15
glyph
202:22

go
21:24 38:13,25 41:20
42:9 43:10 49:18
64:6 85:5 86:10 87:8
87:14 89:16 90:22
93:18 94:10 97:24
98:3 103:22 105:5
116:2 119:7 120:3,12
121:24 124:12 131:2
166:25 171:2 175:17
175:19 179:16 184:24
197:18 215:1,19
220:25 221:6 242:16
242:17 248:16 259:21
259:22 280:20 282:14
292:19 322:8,12
goal
293:11
goes
106:4 113:24 126:3
161:8 305:7
going
14:7 20:23 24:6 25:23
26:9 29:20 41:20
43:11 46:12 55:7
77:5 78:11 79:12
90:18 91:4 105:12
107:16 114:10 122:15
124:12 137:2 143:3
149:9 175:21 176:22
185:3 191:14 204:16
208:9,14 212:8
216:21 217:15 221:22
223:21 233:13 242:16
242:22 243:20 245:15
248:15,20,22 282:7
282:21 283:11 292:18
294:18,24 295:17
296:4 303:25 317:22
318:5 327:6 328:22
good
8:3 9:9 26:12 75:23
77:14,20 79:10 90:25
123:23 137:24 174:15
248:17 282:10 325:25
Google
137:20 213:10,14

222:18 223:10 230:3
230:4,7,19,21,23,25
231:10,16 279:2,10
289:24 296:18 300:9
300:10 317:20 318:4
318:13,19
Google's
222:18
Google-searching
308:6
gotten
91:15 217:25
government
45:11 111:24
governmental
181:21
GPS
62:24 64:2 70:12
grab
96:11
graded
79:9
graduating
28:12
grafted
61:10
grant
237:7
granted
228:22
grants
111:25 145:20
graphics
147:11,12,15 207:12
great
31:17 35:6,23 47:6
179:20 191:17 221:6
259:16 307:10
greater
114:15 217:19,20
greatly
199:24 263:16
gross
86:13
group
37:9 73:8 132:3 159:20
162:11 164:23

groups
131:15 158:11 186:25
186:25 259:5
guardian
135:17
guess
92:7 132:15 216:8
240:2 282:16 297:9
299:11
guessing
22:4
guide
62:25
guidelines
280:10
Guild
6:17 7:6 208:18 209:6
229:9 237:24
guy
79:25
guys
38:14
GW
270:22
G.C.H
18:18,19 21:24 22:17
22:18
G.H.C
18:17 22:16
H
halves
104:15
hand
56:12 57:3,13 329:19
handed
119:4
handful
322:16
handheld
268:23
handled
255:6
Handwriting
46:21
happen
214:19 274:12
happened

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

349
55:3 71:18 137:12
happens
203:21 204:1
happy
75:16
hard
23:24 125:3
hardware
38:6,16 39:16 58:15,18
58:24 142:8 188:16
HarperCollins
100:8
Harry
301:9
Hathi
233:8
HathiTrust
6:18 7:7 208:19 209:3
209:16,23,24 210:3
210:14 211:11,14
212:14,16 213:1,6,15
214:23 222:19,21
223:2,11,16,19 224:1
224:18 226:19 227:3
228:3,4,10,20 229:9
230:11 231:7,10,12
231:20,25 232:10,19
233:4,23 234:5
235:10,21 236:17,23
237:4,9,24 238:20
239:19 240:11 241:6
241:13,15 304:14,21
306:4 325:20
HDL
232:10 233:16 240:5
head
195:4
hear
166:25 204:7,15
heard
40:24 300:21
hearing
149:10
hearsay
176:10
heat
24:1

held
26:6,17 64:13 175:23
323:25
help
47:5 70:11 79:14
106:25 108:3 127:1,6
144:22 189:21
helped
178:11
helpful
131:5
helping
29:17 47:1 76:15
131:11 156:14 186:22
187:4
Helvetica
37:22
hereunto
329:18
hertz
280:21
Hewlett-Packard
35:10 56:5,14 188:11
hide
136:13
high
299:23
higher
40:25 101:3,6 131:12
132:5,10 183:23
216:21 217:23,23
highest
16:8 216:23
highly
266:12
high-quality
218:15 310:21,23
high-speed
113:21
historical
307:25 308:11,21
317:14 318:6,22
historically
292:4
history
301:10
hitting

23:24 28:4
hi-fi
57:24
hold
86:9 102:19 165:13
holding
239:7
home
9:14,15
homeowners
29:17
honor
189:19
hope
111:18
hopefully
35:14
hosted
307:17 308:3,14,22
317:10,17 318:23
327:14 328:4,11
hour
2:3 282:8
hours
15:16
House
100:9 301:1 302:4
houses
29:16
How's
179:12
Hudis
3:4 4:4 8:18,18 9:7,8
9:21 11:1 12:9,14
13:10,22 15:12 20:22
21:3,10,15 24:7 25:1
26:18 29:21 31:2,11
31:21 32:5,16,23
33:16 34:2 35:20
37:1 38:2,7,13,19
39:2,21 40:20 41:1,17
41:24 42:1,5,11 43:10
43:20,23 44:19 48:17
48:24 49:15 50:4,16
50:21,24 51:3,6,17
52:2,11,20 54:9,20
55:12,21 58:1,7,20

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

59:13,19 60:2,9,12,14
60:20 61:1,12,21 62:3
62:15,20 63:2,8,14,20
64:3,9,16,23 65:5,18
65:23 66:3,8,13,18
67:1,7,20 68:1,10,16
68:18 69:16 70:13,20
71:1,15,24 72:7,16,22
73:2,9 74:2,12,20
75:24 76:9 77:13,18
78:2,13 79:11 80:4,17
81:2,14 82:5,10 83:2
84:10,16 85:1,11
86:21 87:3,7,13,19
88:4,14,21 89:3,11,15
89:21 90:2,10,19 91:1
91:3,18,20 92:19 93:8
93:17 96:6,15,22 97:3
97:9,14,23 98:4,10,16
99:10,19 100:1,12,22
101:5,21 102:4,14
103:10,17 104:12
106:12,20 107:3,7,15
108:5,15 109:4 110:7
110:17,22 111:12,20
112:2,11,19 113:5,13
114:2,18 115:4,12,19
116:1,17 117:4,19
118:10 119:9 120:22
122:1,11 123:1,9,24
124:4 125:15 126:1,5
126:14 127:9,20
128:1,13,18 129:7,23
130:5,12,18,24
131:14,24 132:4
133:1,4,11,18,24
134:8,15 135:1,23
136:5,16,24 137:8
138:12,18 139:16
140:4,10,20 141:4,12
141:16,23 142:7,24
143:11,25 144:5,10
146:21 147:13 149:21
150:3 151:3,7 152:10
152:23 153:21 154:9
154:23 156:9 157:1
157:20 160:14 161:13

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

350
252:2,16 253:15
161:15,18,20,22,25
254:4,11,16 255:2,4,7
162:14,22 163:11
255:15,22 256:2,7,11
164:12 166:1,7,20
256:15,18,20,25
167:14 168:6,22
257:15,17 258:12
171:1 172:5 173:10
260:17 261:19 262:14
173:17 174:4,15,22
263:3,9 265:4,10,16
175:3,9,19 176:5,12
265:22 266:3 267:1,7
176:16 177:11,16,22
267:16 268:1,11
178:12,20 179:3,12
270:11 271:20 272:2
179:18,21 180:1
272:11 273:14 274:1
181:13 182:8,14,23
275:10 276:6,11,15
183:10 184:5,23
276:24 277:8 278:3
185:11,20 187:15,22
278:11,22 279:5,15
188:23 190:17 191:7
280:1,14 281:8,17
191:23 193:4,18
282:10 283:1,19
194:6 195:3,15
284:2,20 285:10
196:12,23 197:9,20
286:9,13,19 287:16
198:12 199:13,21
288:1,17 289:1,18
200:18 201:6,20,25
290:3,14,23 291:11
202:14 203:1,6,11,20
291:24 292:8,17
203:24 204:8,23
293:17 294:8 295:2
205:16,20 206:5,12
295:11,16 296:5,10
206:22 207:4,17,22
296:14,22 297:1,13
207:24 208:7,16
297:19 298:2,10,18
209:1,14,21 210:10
299:2,19 300:4,19
210:18 211:8 212:4
301:12,21 303:2,9,17
212:22 213:4,12,21
303:24 304:8,18
214:18,21 215:3,17
305:6,18 306:2,23
215:21,24 216:11,13
307:5,7 308:8,19
219:7,18,24 220:7,9
309:3 310:16 311:5
220:14,17 221:5,21
311:12,17,24 312:5
222:6,9,14 223:6,24
312:24 313:7,13,19
224:10,15 225:1,4,11
317:23 318:11 319:2
225:18,24 226:6
319:7 320:8,21 321:4
227:1,11,16,19 228:8
322:4,17,23 323:9,12
228:17 229:5,14,19
323:23 324:5,12,18
230:15 231:14,24
325:3,10,16 327:4,11
232:5 233:10,21
327:18 328:1,8,14
234:11 235:2,5 236:3
236:11 237:13,17,19 huh
282:16 328:20
238:3,8,10 239:14
240:18 241:12,18,21 human
108:14,17 121:7 122:9
242:15,24 243:1,5,8
122:12,16,23 186:24
243:12,14,20,24
187:9 194:16 196:7
244:24 245:14 248:15
198:18
248:21 249:6 250:14
humans
250:21 251:2,7,10

204:12
HumanWare
74:5
human-narrated
199:6
hundred
302:23 303:1
hundreds
292:15 302:22 303:4
306:13,15
hurting
189:22
hyperactivity
149:12
hypothetical
31:16 32:2 95:6,15
114:23 115:9,16
122:8,21 123:5
125:13,22 126:9
127:4,14 135:12
136:3 137:5 139:12
139:22 140:7,14,24
141:8,20 142:2,18
152:7 202:11 204:4
208:4 220:24 271:13
272:9 276:2 278:15
287:13,22 288:7
300:7
I
IBM
23:2,6
IBM's
23:11
Icelanders
46:20
Icelandic
46:18,19
idea
79:17 212:1
ideally
297:6
ideas
29:2
identification
12:13 21:13 41:16
50:15 68:9 69:14
98:9 143:7 179:23

185:7 190:16 208:13
229:4 237:12 241:20
249:1
identify
44:18 45:1 152:12
identifying
170:4
identity
136:13
igniting
22:23
ignition
25:15
illegal
247:25
illness
11:11
IMAA
183:16
image
116:15,22 123:7 202:6
202:13,18 216:22,25
231:3 271:15 288:20
297:16 310:21,23
imagery
26:6
images
116:16 122:24
image-based
30:25 284:16,18
image-only
271:11 272:7 287:10
297:7 310:15 312:7
315:1
imagine
147:8 152:20
impacted
260:8 261:3
impaired
5:24 190:22 191:11
196:15 198:4,25
258:15,22,25 260:11
289:4 293:19 298:21
299:6 303:12 306:12
325:12
impairment
153:15 281:25

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

351
impairments
53:13
implementing
172:24 277:22
importance
300:18
important
158:20 181:3,7 199:3
201:1 260:4,22 293:5
300:16 302:7
impression
217:25
improve
24:3
improved
32:14
Improving
5:16
inaccessible
196:6 201:4 202:13
263:12
inadvertent
137:13
include
114:19 165:14 166:2
170:3 239:5 260:14
268:8,9,22 275:3,6,13
275:15
included
49:11 53:25 95:20,21
277:5 295:5
includes
109:16 135:4 231:2
including
136:10 155:12 156:18
169:6 229:15 246:1
261:16 320:1
inclusion
246:6
incomplete
31:15 32:1 95:5,14
114:22 115:8,15
122:7,20 123:4
125:12,21 126:9
127:3,14 135:12
136:3 137:4 139:12
139:21 140:7,13,23

141:7,19 142:1,18
152:7 202:11 204:4
208:4 220:24 271:12
272:8 276:1 278:14
287:12,22 288:6
300:6
incorporate
136:9
incorporated
8:6,7,24 70:18
incorrect
78:18 215:11 247:3
increased
248:2
increases
218:2 220:3,20
incurred
254:23
independently
261:6
index
4:1,2,7 5:1 6:1 7:1
120:8 137:21
indicates
153:7 174:25 232:24
indication
59:22 299:11 300:11
302:11
indicator
299:16
individual
89:9 111:25 138:1
160:25 173:25 175:2
234:24 235:8
individually
183:15
individuals
44:24 160:23 183:18
226:16,17 228:2
240:9 260:23
industry
131:8,21 132:2,9 138:1
164:23 165:13 166:23
166:24 168:5 169:6
173:4,8
infinity
301:6

inform
130:14
informal
154:25 160:8 182:5
Informally
17:21
information
5:17,19 13:3 50:25
77:6,21 78:6 98:14
109:21 118:8 119:3
169:9 181:25 221:15
227:9 246:3 259:13
264:16,21 270:6
272:19 275:5 293:14
293:16 307:23
informed
307:20 309:20,24
310:5
infringement
158:17 170:3 209:20
infringes
171:14
ingested
274:4
initial
36:19 83:18 110:1,6
116:11,12 131:16
188:3,7 242:13
initials
30:16
initiative
145:10 163:20
injury
53:17
innovation
185:24
input
168:9 293:13
inquire
217:24 219:5
inquiry
215:12
inside
170:25 316:15,16
inspected
290:11
inspection

23:24 24:2 136:15
143:24 242:13
instance
148:13
Institute
16:14 17:6
instruct
13:4 221:18 227:7
INSTRUCTED
7:22
instructing
221:17
instruction
13:17 221:23
instructions
227:13
instruments
27:14,15,16,17
integrity
181:5
intellectual
149:13 173:4
intend
240:7 251:3 252:5,8
intended
170:9 234:2
intending
173:5
intent
38:20 155:21 157:3
intention
243:12
intentions
130:15
interact
147:22
interaction
104:17,18 131:21
132:1
interchangeable
81:7
interchangeably
138:11
interest
71:8 160:2 277:7
interested
329:13

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

352
interesting
186:10 302:9
interests
131:23 168:15 180:16
189:23
interface
60:23 61:6
interfere
53:15
interferes
85:19 86:7 151:16,25
interject
31:7
intern
24:17 25:9 27:11,12
Internet
7:10 137:17 193:11
195:21 242:3 253:2,8
253:9,18,20 279:14
288:12 296:8 299:22
317:8,10,14,17 318:7
318:14,18,23 319:9
319:14,17,23 320:14
320:16 322:7 324:22
327:20 328:3,10
internship
24:10
interrupt
77:3
interruption
177:14,21 193:3
233:20 323:8
intersection
158:2
intervene
200:2
intervener
210:20
Intervenors
6:12
intervention
122:12,16 198:19
200:12 274:24
intrinsic
140:1
invention
70:6

inventor
32:12 69:22
inventors
32:13 51:16,24
inventor's
71:8
investigate
184:13
investigated
182:22
involve
13:6
involved
20:18
ionization
28:5
iPad
84:7
iPhone
84:7
issue
166:24 172:1 211:3
301:25
issued
51:8 69:23 70:22 229:1
237:9,25 238:12
issues
53:16 80:14,15 153:20
italics
124:20,21,25
item
216:12 256:21
items
176:24 217:4,6 281:3
J
James
1:14 2:1,9 4:12 6:4,10
7:14 8:5 9:4,11 91:8
185:3,9 249:4 328:22
January
79:18
JAWS
88:11 270:20 292:15
293:24
Jerry
189:5,11,14
Jet

25:19 26:21
Jim
131:6 145:13
job
20:10,12 22:13 24:16
24:19 27:10
join
18:15 108:23 110:2
149:1 160:20 162:2
joining
102:8 162:3
Jonathan
3:4 8:18 9:21 13:15
282:7
jon.hudis@quarles.c...
3:8
JPL
26:2
Jr
9:11
judge
212:10
judgment
6:7,14 211:24 212:6,13
228:21,23 237:7
July
214:13 242:5 246:13
247:5,9
June
214:7 238:7,12
K
K
3:5
Kaplan
3:19 8:22,22 10:24
13:1,15 15:5,9 24:5
24:22 29:14 30:21
31:7,15 32:1,9,20
33:13,24 35:19 36:16
38:1,10,12,24 39:5
40:13,23 41:23,25
42:3,6 43:19 44:16
48:15,22 49:7 50:1,21
51:1,10,21 52:7,15
54:5,18 55:10,18
57:18 58:5,13 59:10
59:16,25 60:8,10,13

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

60:24 61:3,18,24 62:7
62:17,23 63:5,11,17
63:23 64:6,11,20 65:2
65:15,20,25 66:5,10
66:15,22 67:4,13,23
68:4,13 69:7 70:8,16
70:23 71:12,21 72:2
72:12,19,24 73:5,21
74:9,16 75:21 76:4
77:3,14,24 78:10 79:6
79:24 80:11 81:1,4
82:2,7,20 84:5,13,22
85:6 86:17 87:1,5,10
87:16,22 88:12,18,25
89:6,13,18,24 90:7,14
90:24 91:2,10,19
92:15 93:3,15,21,24
94:15,17,20 95:1,5,10
95:14,23 96:3,8,19,25
97:6,12,18,25 98:15
99:3,15,21 100:5,20
100:25 101:10,25
102:10 103:6,13
104:8 106:9,14,23
107:5,10,25 108:11
108:24 110:3,13,19
111:8,14,23 112:6,14
113:1,9,17 114:5,22
115:8,11,15,22
116:13 117:2,13
118:4,23 120:20
121:22 122:7,20
123:4,22 124:1
125:12,20 126:4,8
127:3,13,24 128:4,15
129:6,18 130:1,9,16
130:21 131:5,17
132:19 133:3,6,14,20
134:4,12,21 135:10
136:2,7,19 137:4
138:10,17 139:10,21
140:6,13,23 141:7,15
141:19 142:1,17
143:1,22 144:3,6,8
146:18 147:1 149:20
150:2 151:1 152:6,15
153:13 154:7,20

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

353
155:23 156:24 157:5
160:7,10 161:7,14,16
161:24 162:6,18
163:6 164:10 165:5
166:6,9 167:12,23
168:18 170:18 171:5
172:25 173:14,22
174:13,20 175:12
176:1,9,13 177:7,19
178:5,16,24 179:7,14
181:11 182:4,11,19
184:2,15,21,25
185:17 187:13,18
188:18 190:10 191:4
191:21 193:17 194:2
194:4,24 195:11
196:2,19 197:4,16
198:8 199:12,18
200:15 201:2,18,24
202:10,24 203:5,8,17
203:23 204:3,10
205:8,18,24 206:8,19
207:1,7,19,23 208:3
208:22 209:4,17
210:5,15 211:3,7,25
212:18,25 213:7,16
214:16,19 215:2,15
215:20,23 218:24
219:16,21 220:5,8,11
220:15,23 221:14
222:3,10 223:3,17
224:3,12 225:3,13,21
226:4,22 227:5,15,18
228:5,11,14 229:12
229:15 230:12 231:8
231:23 232:2 233:5
233:17 234:6 235:23
236:8 237:15 238:2,6
238:9 239:12 240:13
241:9,16 242:8,22
243:2,10,13,19,21
244:19 245:6 248:7
248:19 250:12,19,25
251:14,18 252:13
253:12,22 254:7,14
254:20 255:1,3,5,9,14
255:20,24 256:9,13

256:16,19,22 257:14
257:16 258:4 260:12
261:11 262:7 263:1,5
265:1,8,14,20 266:1
266:23 267:4,11,21
268:4 270:4 271:12
271:23 272:8 273:9
273:23 275:8 276:1
276:10,13,20 277:3
277:16 278:7,14,25
279:8,18 280:7 281:5
281:12 282:7,12,14
283:16,22 284:14
285:6 286:7,17
287:12,21 288:6,22
289:6,22 290:9,21
291:6,20 292:2,11,22
294:4 295:1,9,14
296:2,7,12,20,23
297:4,17,25 298:6,13
298:22 299:7,24
300:6 301:3,7,18
302:24 303:5,7,13,22
304:16 305:5 306:21
306:24 307:1 308:4
308:15,24 310:12,25
311:10,15,20 312:2
312:19 313:5,11,17
313:23 314:1,12,16
315:11,15,21,24
316:3,6,11,18,22
317:1,18 318:1,3,10
318:25 319:5 320:3
320:19 321:2,23
322:10,20 323:6,11
323:21 324:3,10,16
324:25 325:8,14
326:25 327:16,23
328:6,12,17
Katherine
3:12 8:20 9:24
Kathleen
1:25 2:6 9:1 24:5 329:2
329:24
Kcappaert@oblon.c...
3:16
keep

103:15 189:25
keeps
86:9,14
kept
178:22 317:22 318:5
keyboard
293:12
keypad
58:25
keyword
315:4,9 316:1,21
kid
137:19
kind
27:17 195:6 266:11
274:20 280:16 293:3
304:6 321:18
kinds
45:3 47:3 207:10
knocked
304:6
know
10:15,19 11:7 18:20
38:2 41:10 43:8
46:25 50:9 64:8,24
65:4,10 67:8 73:7,24
74:6 76:8 77:22
84:24 99:17 113:6
114:14 116:20 120:13
121:1,7 123:20
126:10 131:1,1
137:12 147:21 169:2
171:22 176:15 177:3
179:9 182:15 194:20
203:13 204:13,15
209:9 211:23 214:19
217:23 220:1,10
236:15 241:24 243:13
243:15 255:5,11
256:13 262:21 268:12
269:13 270:18 279:6
279:19,23 285:3,13
285:15 289:2 291:16
292:9 293:8 295:19
298:19 302:10 304:7
305:21 314:7 321:20
knowing

45:20 302:9
knowledge
41:5,9 86:5 90:13 92:2
96:10 100:2 303:10
known
33:11 55:5 76:12
123:25 200:9 232:8
264:18 269:6
Kurzweil
32:8,18
K-12
132:10 216:23
L
L
26:11
labor
218:3
Laboratory
25:20 26:21,25 27:5
lack
40:13 131:18 300:2
lacks
63:5,11,18 64:20 65:2
65:15,20,25 66:5,10
66:15,22 67:5,13,23
68:4 70:9,23 71:12,22
72:2,12,19,24 73:5,22
84:13,22 85:7 87:10
87:16,23 88:18 89:1,7
89:18,24 90:7 92:15
95:6,16 96:4,25 97:6
97:19,25 99:4,15,22
100:6,25 101:10
102:11 103:7 106:10
106:15,24 107:11
108:11,24 110:3,13
112:6 113:2,10,17
114:6,23 115:23
116:13 117:3 122:8
122:21 123:5 125:13
125:21 126:8 133:14
133:20 134:21 135:10
136:8 137:5 139:11
139:22 140:7,14,24
141:8,20 142:2,18
147:1 155:23 156:24
157:5 165:6 168:18

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

354
171:5 172:25 173:22
174:20 178:5,17,25
179:7 182:12 188:19
190:10 202:10 205:8
213:7,16 224:4,12
228:12 236:9 245:7
292:2 325:1
language
109:15 149:15 204:22
246:17
large
23:6,15 27:7,25 44:22
73:15,16 83:24 138:3
138:3 209:25
larger
196:8
largest
27:18 145:3
large-scale
45:8
laser
23:25
lasers
17:22
late
323:1
latest
46:16
launch
132:2 165:11
launched
39:17
law
109:8 156:20,22
157:11 158:25 159:3
159:11 163:22 164:16
173:6 181:7
laws
135:8 158:8
lawyer
129:10 171:10 211:1
lawyers
14:24 189:18
layman
67:6
layman's
70:10 146:1

leading
145:11 168:11 205:11
289:15 291:8 298:24
leap
181:9
learn
107:1 108:4 148:5
149:1
learned
154:16
learning
53:13 60:18 61:7
149:19,23 150:6,12
151:20,23 192:20
237:2
learning-disabled
262:1
leave
18:15
left
39:22 43:25 48:6 216:9
left-hand
230:17 233:12 240:22
legal
33:14 48:2,8 63:18
67:5 70:9,24 71:13,22
72:3,5,20 73:8,22,24
75:14 76:7 81:17
82:21 84:14,23 87:11
87:17 88:19 89:1,25
90:8,15 92:16 107:11
113:10 117:23 127:4
127:14 128:16,16
130:2,10 134:22
135:11 143:23 153:5
158:1 165:17 169:1
178:17,25 179:8
182:12,20 184:18
189:20 209:16 210:2
210:6 211:6 212:2
224:4 228:12 247:24
254:8 327:1
legally
153:3,17 163:25 172:3
183:15
legs
91:2

length
102:1 226:25
lessoned
200:1
letter
30:5 45:14 181:6
letters
30:2 37:11,16 44:12
45:8,13,13,15,17
let's
21:24 30:8 42:13 43:10
47:14 69:18 76:17
90:20,22 104:2,15
108:19 109:16 119:8
119:11 124:5 129:13
139:17 144:24 146:3
147:16,25 148:24
150:9 153:2,22
154:10 155:7 156:10
160:15 162:23 172:18
179:16 208:7 224:16
277:17 281:21 286:23
290:1,1 300:17
304:20 314:2 317:2
322:24
level
16:9 171:21 208:19
299:4 301:15 303:11
306:5,7,7,9
levels
219:12,15 305:3 306:3
312:23
level-above
82:14
Lexis
7:3 237:16,22
libraries
104:4 205:11,13,23
209:25 213:3,19
230:6 235:14,17
238:22 240:7 241:2
245:8
library
7:11 82:3 83:25 145:3
169:11 212:17 213:6
213:15 222:24 226:10
230:11 231:7,21,25

232:11,19 233:4,23
234:5 235:10,22
238:21 239:20,23
240:4,12 241:15
242:4 247:2 296:16
license
73:13 96:13 127:17
128:24 172:8 289:14
329:4
licensed
72:18,23 73:4,20
107:13,22 108:6,9
148:17 329:3
licensing
96:11
life
73:18
lights
280:20
limit
258:1
limitation
86:7 281:24
limited
76:15 134:20 135:4
161:5 257:11,18
line
7:23 15:21 38:17 51:13
51:13 81:23 207:20
260:16 282:9
lines
86:2 92:12
Lingane
180:7
link
119:5 162:17,19
318:15,18 320:6
linked
103:19
linking
103:15
list
48:7 52:13 93:6 100:11
109:19 146:22 147:10
152:18,18,24 178:10
294:16,18,24,25
295:17,20

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

355
listed
28:11 42:15 66:20
69:21,25 94:8 142:14
194:11,12 294:9
listen
141:3 266:9
listening
121:16 204:6,12 274:7
293:13
Lists
89:20 93:11 95:21
96:17,24
literacy
106:22 107:9,21
145:10
literary
126:21
litigated
117:23 208:19
litigation
125:8 191:24 208:18
209:3 210:4,14
214:23 224:18 228:10
228:20 236:17 237:9
241:7,14 250:24
251:4 253:3 254:6,13
254:19 255:19 304:14
304:21 307:19 325:20
little
21:6 195:7 209:9
LLP
2:4 3:3,18 8:19,21,23
loading
22:20
locate
272:22,25 307:25
317:13 324:8
located
20:7 74:24 273:11
log
163:1
log-in
163:4
long
15:13 22:8 151:13,22
164:3
longer

89:12 137:1
longest-term
27:18
look
52:17 63:25 69:19
83:22 86:1 98:17
114:10 120:2 124:5
171:23 260:19 264:1
286:9 312:1 322:9
looked
223:18 286:11 291:1
311:3
looking
44:11 85:24 114:13
120:24 192:23 256:16
264:6 274:14 311:22
314:9,14 318:20
321:6 323:16
looks
37:7 69:11 84:2 143:15
144:23 159:2 214:25
loss
149:10 197:2
lost
195:7
lot
45:5,25 117:17 132:11
143:15 310:3
loud
184:22
low
61:8 86:25 123:17
150:15 261:24 266:17
274:8 275:21 306:13
306:15
lower
144:19
low-quality
115:1
low-vision
123:2 150:11
lunch
143:5
L.L.P
3:11
M
M

204:15
machine
30:2,12 32:18 54:8
56:4 58:24 188:3,7,14
188:17 308:11,18
319:3
machines
53:10 54:4,15 186:7
magnification
196:25 197:25 264:25
265:3 268:15 271:7
271:15 275:16,23
276:3
magnified
123:7
magnifier
265:7,13 268:19,22
269:1
magnifies
240:1
magnify
160:13 268:17 269:4
magnifying
268:20
magnitude
40:15
MAIER
3:10
mail
45:9 46:13,15 50:7
mailings
46:4
main
22:25 24:24 48:11,19
58:19 79:25 131:21
164:22
maintain
153:25 179:1
Maintaining
48:4
maintenance
27:15 34:6 46:11,12
54:1
major
16:19 17:14,15 23:11
24:25 35:10 45:22
100:3,10 112:8

165:21 186:21 188:8
189:18
majority
35:23 47:3 112:16
137:14 147:21 259:16
making
23:22 123:13 125:24
170:23 184:7 186:6
201:12 227:24 260:5
260:10 288:19 315:13
324:1
Malamud
15:2 305:20 307:23
320:13 321:6,15
322:24 324:19
Malamud's
303:19 304:3 305:13
mammal
44:22
manage
264:2
management
80:14,15 133:8 168:3
172:16,21 187:24
219:23 226:2 245:9
326:12,21
managers
187:25
mandated
183:16
Manhattan
208:20
manner
132:25 166:8
manufacturer
49:17
map
63:24
maps
63:25
mark
12:10 21:11 56:18 58:2
59:14 63:3 64:18
66:14 70:15 84:11
87:8 88:15 89:22
90:4 91:22 92:2
marked

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

356
7:17 12:13,16 21:13
34:10 41:16,19 50:15
50:18 68:9,12 69:14
69:18 98:9,11 143:7
143:12 179:23 180:3
185:7,12 190:16,19
208:13 213:23 229:4
229:7 237:12,21
241:20,22 249:1,8
303:18 304:3,10
305:12
market
36:19 186:9 285:5
291:19
marketed
59:5
marketing
36:1,5,11 50:9,12
marking
21:6
marks
328:21
markup
120:7,10,11 121:18
Martus
98:23 108:10,13
187:10
mass
46:4 230:9
master
17:10
master's
16:10 17:1,5,13,17,20
24:11
material
42:24 90:17 94:23 95:9
95:12 98:3 112:24
117:10 118:9,12
119:16 139:7,9,15,19
148:20,23 154:3
155:6 170:24 171:12
177:9 200:14 213:14
220:20 229:17 239:3
245:4 269:25 289:4
292:20 293:20 305:14
305:17,20 312:22
317:3 321:18

materials
93:6 126:15 127:11
128:23 135:8 148:10
148:14 149:7 158:10
159:19,22 163:8
170:16 173:6,11,12
213:5 234:1 249:20
324:1 325:23
math
29:2
Matt
255:6
matter
8:5 251:12
matters
304:7
MCCLELLAND
3:10
MDP
230:9
Meadows
244:1 245:17
mean
30:17 42:6 45:13 82:11
85:13,21 88:5 121:10
123:10 124:13 126:10
129:8 146:24 156:23
169:2 177:18 178:19
194:7,21 195:2,6,9,24
204:12 221:2 223:8
246:21 248:5 252:24
256:14 261:21 272:24
273:3,22 274:4,11
275:2 276:17 297:3
306:15 310:23
meaning
16:5 261:17
means
146:8 147:7 170:7
180:18 240:2 245:13
245:25 260:21 261:2
299:22
meant
222:11
measure
28:7 300:8
measures

19:15,18 224:1 227:3
228:4 235:12,21
241:2
mechanical
246:1
mechanism
167:2 168:3 287:5
293:13
mechanisms
101:17 102:2 245:10
media
147:9
medical
109:11
medication
11:11
meet
5:20 46:13 133:9 153:5
155:15 157:18 259:15
282:4
meeting
165:9,11 189:14
meetings
80:5
meets
109:7 169:13
member
94:19 95:3 137:2 148:9
148:14 149:3 150:1,5
153:11,16 154:6,19
161:1 163:5 174:3
213:3 238:21 240:5,7
members
79:21 110:2,12,23
111:6 112:13,25
122:3,13,17 135:6
139:7,8 152:14
166:25 167:1 170:17
205:13 206:4 216:4
218:10,13
membership
110:11,16 111:2,11,17
152:9 154:4 160:18
175:2,8
memorize
279:12
memorized

36:22 128:7
memory
36:23 140:18
mention
13:18 120:15 121:1
217:6 320:6
mentioned
147:11 246:8 295:20
295:23 299:9 301:14
302:1,6 309:2
mentions
277:6 296:4 298:23
merged
33:7 55:4
merger
41:14
met
190:8 210:21
method
30:19 31:14,24 197:1,7
276:18 277:10 278:6
280:4 308:20 318:22
methods
128:21 199:10 200:13
277:14 278:4
Mh-hmm
14:17 105:21 106:5
108:21 146:7,15
148:7 154:11 173:19
195:16 216:11 262:4
272:17 295:7 310:22
Michigan's
240:4
Micro
270:22
microfluidics
29:2,7
microscopy
23:19
Microsoft
31:13,24 59:3 116:3
266:8 288:5,9,9
291:22 292:5,6
294:11 295:25
middle
188:2 192:24 202:3
Middlefield

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

357
9:12
middling
300:17,22 301:4,5
mike
144:6 304:6
Millennium
171:9
million
40:12,21,25 41:3 55:14
mind
13:16 77:20 131:22
294:14 321:19
Mindy
43:7
minimal
73:14 226:19 228:3
minimum
73:14
minor
16:21 17:17 135:18
minors
17:18
minute
292:18
minutes
327:5
Miradi
187:21,23
misaligned
311:18 312:1
misalignments
311:22
Mischaracterizes
197:17 306:22
misleading
170:19 262:8 303:7
misled
243:11
Misrec
313:4
misrecs
203:15
missed
149:20
missing
115:1 311:13
mission

181:22
missions
26:7
Misstates
59:10 74:9,16 86:17
95:15 104:8 107:25
113:1 117:13 121:22
129:19 152:16 166:9
173:14 194:25 236:9
261:12 277:4 281:5
296:24
model
168:13,16,21,24
models
186:1
modem
204:16,20
moderate
301:7
modern
120:24 124:7 125:5
126:25 204:17 244:3
244:8,11
moment
71:3 96:14 143:13
242:9 269:23
money
20:15,21 47:7 55:15
monitor
8:11 269:3
month
11:18 172:20
monthly
225:16
months
14:5
month's
172:19
morning
8:3 9:9 250:11,18
255:12
motion
6:6,13 211:24 212:6,9
212:13 228:21
motor
53:16 86:13
Motors

25:3
Mountain
2:5 8:15
move
70:12 282:20
moved
282:16
moving
29:9
MP3
140:22 141:1,2 142:10
multiple
82:12 129:11 158:1
243:4,6
multiwire
27:19
Murphy
26:1
Murray
26:2,4,20
M-I-R-A-D-I
187:21
N
N
8:2 204:14
name
9:10,20 26:9 33:15,19
55:2 58:23 72:5 73:8
74:5,6,19,21 75:9
76:13,14 89:14 93:11
101:6 134:2,7,11
136:11,11 137:15
163:13 174:6,24
224:11 236:5 279:17
279:22,24 280:4
named
76:21 329:13
names
51:15 74:4 270:19
279:13
narrate
194:17
narrow
37:15 189:3
narrower
168:1
narrowly

160:3 180:20
NASA
25:19 26:21
National
26:24 27:5 210:20
nature
70:5 75:6 79:13 193:24
212:23
nearly
285:8
necessarily
287:19
necessary
256:4
need
10:11,18 26:12,15 60:7
60:22 64:6 82:15
94:22 104:25 117:21
122:23 163:8 200:1
202:12 242:13 259:19
273:15 280:24 293:15
300:5 304:5 326:3
needed
47:5 80:3 105:14 134:2
needing
36:21
needs
5:21 60:18 61:7 82:13
126:25 135:14,20
159:4,13 182:1 194:4
258:8,9,10 259:15
263:20,20,21
Negotiating
48:5
neither
77:8
NEUSTADT
3:10
never
29:6 106:19 256:3
300:20
new
37:20 40:1 79:17
208:20
NFPA
325:6
nice

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

358
172:10
night
29:15
noble
28:2
nods
10:12 195:4
non
46:24
nondisabled
101:18
nondramatic
126:21
nonhuman
200:12
nonlawyer
246:23
nonprofit
62:13 74:18 75:2 76:12
81:12 145:12,21
156:12 181:20 185:19
186:3,4 212:3
nonqualifying
132:24
nonrec
313:10
nonrecs
203:15
non-OCR
46:23
normal
86:3 159:14 160:25
notable
29:12
note
140:16,18 142:12
251:7 253:5 257:1,6
263:24 268:8 301:8
304:1 305:18
noted
21:5 32:25 229:19
237:22 256:2 275:21
notes
19:20 235:14
noteworthy
32:12 132:12
notice

71:7 169:24 170:4
201:14
171:21 172:2 204:13 objection
318:17 321:15 322:18 15:5 24:22 29:14 30:21
327:19 328:2,9
31:8,15 32:1,9,20
noticeable
33:13,24 35:19 36:16
290:12
38:1,10,24 39:5 40:13
noticed
40:23 48:15,22 49:7
327:13
50:1 51:10,21 52:7,15
notices
54:5,18 55:10,18
134:20 135:5 171:13
57:18 58:5,13 59:10
171:16
59:16,25 60:8,24 61:3
noting
61:18,24 62:7,17,23
298:8 308:6 324:6
63:5,11,17,23 64:20
novel
65:2,15,20,25 66:5,10
119:18 125:1
66:15,22 67:4,13,23
November
68:4 70:8,16,23 71:12
69:23,24
71:21 72:2,12,19,24
Nuance
73:5,21 74:9,16 75:21
41:12,13
76:4 79:24 80:11
null
81:1,4 82:2,7,20 84:5
329:17
84:13,22 85:6 86:17
number
87:1,5,10,16,22 88:12
8:9 69:25 91:16 141:10
88:18,25 89:6,13,18
155:1 165:22,23
89:24 90:7,14 92:15
173:8 185:2 214:16
93:3,15,21 94:15,20
215:6,7 216:5,8,18
95:5,14 96:3,8,19,25
217:22 219:3 233:1
97:6,12,18,25 99:3,15
280:21 291:3 293:21
99:21 100:5,20,25
293:23 302:1 303:23
101:10,25 102:10
311:21 327:13
103:6,13 104:8 106:9
numbered
106:14,23 107:5,10
144:17 192:17
107:25 108:11,24
numbers
110:3,13,19 111:8,14
214:23 216:9,19,20
111:23 112:6,14
224:22 225:9,12
113:1,9,17 114:5,22
232:24 307:2
115:8,15,22 116:13
NVDA
117:2,13 118:4,23
271:8
120:20 121:22 122:7
NW
122:20 123:4,22
3:5
124:1 125:12,20
126:8 127:3,13,24
O
128:4 129:6,18 130:1
O
130:9,16,21 131:17
8:2
132:19 133:3,14,20
oath
134:4,12,21 135:10
10:6
136:2,7,19 137:4
object
139:10,21 140:6,13
13:1 119:3 126:4

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

140:23 141:7,15,19
142:1,17 143:22
146:18 147:1 150:2
152:6,15 153:13
154:7,20 155:23
156:24 157:5 160:7
162:6,18 163:6
164:10 165:5 166:6,9
167:12,23 168:18
170:18 171:5 172:25
173:14,22 174:13,20
177:7 178:5,16,24
179:7 181:11 182:4
182:11,19 184:2,15
185:17 187:13,18
188:18 190:10 191:4
193:17 194:24 195:11
196:2,19 197:4,16
198:8 199:12,18
200:15 201:2,18
202:10 203:8,17,23
204:3,10 205:8,18,24
206:8,19 207:1,7
208:3,22 209:4,17
210:5,15 211:25
212:18,25 213:7,16
215:15 218:24 219:16
219:21 220:23 221:14
223:3,17 224:3,12
225:13 226:4,22
227:5 228:5,11,15
230:12 231:8,23
233:5 234:6 235:23
236:8 239:12 240:13
241:9,16 242:8
244:19 248:7 250:12
250:19,25 252:13
253:12,22 254:7,14
254:20 255:20,24
258:4 260:12 261:11
262:7 263:1 265:1,8
265:14,20 266:1,23
267:4,11,21 268:4
270:4 271:12,23
272:8 273:9,23 275:8
276:1,10,13,20 277:3
277:16 278:7,14,25

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

359
279:8,18 280:7 281:5
281:12 283:16,22
284:14 285:6 286:17
287:12,21 288:6,22
289:6,22 290:9,21
291:6,20 292:2,11,22
294:4 295:1,10 296:2
296:7,12,23 297:4,17
297:25 298:6,13,22
299:7,24 300:6
301:18 303:5,13
306:21 308:4,15,24
310:12,25 311:10,15
311:20 312:2,19
313:5,11,17,23
314:12 315:11,21
316:3,11,22 317:18
318:1,10,25 319:5
320:3,19 321:2,23
322:10,20 323:21
324:3,10,16,25 325:8
325:14 326:25 327:16
327:23 328:6,12
objections
220:16
Objectives
192:21
objects
30:4
obligated
135:6
obligation
105:8 135:22
obligations
133:10
Oblon
3:10 8:21
observe
314:6 323:24
observed
314:5
obtain
18:12 112:12,24
118:20 119:13 121:17
192:8 239:17,21
276:25 307:22
obtained

132:22
obtaining
119:2,10,11
obtains
113:14
obvious
123:12 321:19
obviously
121:7 196:10
occasionally
111:9 138:2
occurred
125:8 302:17
occurs
35:24
ocean
44:23
OCR
30:16,19 32:7,17 34:1
36:19 38:5,16 39:15
39:20 54:16 61:9,15
61:22 62:2,4,11,14
117:11 122:6,19,23
123:20 124:7 125:5
125:10,16 188:9,16
200:22 201:5 202:13
202:19 203:7,10,14
203:19,21,25 204:21
206:17 267:19 285:5
287:10 289:9,12,20
289:24,25,25 290:5,6
290:13,15 294:1
295:8,22 310:9 311:3
312:9,9,13,17,23
315:10,20 316:2,10
316:14,21 320:25
321:10,16,19 322:9
322:18,22
OCR-based
60:16
OCR-processed
206:24 314:25
October
229:11 237:25 238:9
238:11
OEM
49:12,16

offer
251:3 292:5
offered
93:10,14,18 94:5,10,11
94:13 103:4 254:21
offering
250:22 252:9 253:1,9
253:17,23 254:9
office
50:22 56:19 57:7,14
58:4,9 59:15,24 62:6
63:4,10 64:19 65:1
68:15 84:12,21 87:9
87:15 88:17,24 89:23
90:6,12 91:24 92:3,14
98:13 104:25 105:3
105:10 112:9 161:10
291:22 292:6
officer
34:17 48:2 81:7,9,11
81:21,22
official
74:21
off-centered
115:13
Oh
29:2 44:20 107:16
144:8 204:16 222:10
224:24 238:8 306:24
307:3,6 328:19
okay
10:17 13:14 14:15 16:1
16:11 21:9,14 39:22
39:24 42:12,12 43:21
43:24 52:21,24 64:11
66:19 69:6 75:11
77:14 78:12,12 79:15
80:21 90:24 93:20
94:1 102:15 103:11
103:15 106:21 115:11
119:11 122:2 129:15
130:19 131:1 135:3
138:14 142:16 143:17
143:25 144:5,10,15
144:20,24 147:3
151:8 160:16 161:6
161:16,24 163:17

167:25 168:7 175:21
177:4,23 178:2
179:11,24 183:6,9
184:6,23 189:7,13
191:20 192:7,15,19
192:24 194:6,12
196:24 198:13 201:25
206:13 209:2 211:13
211:21,23 212:5
217:3,6 220:11
221:25 223:7,13,14
223:25 227:18 233:17
233:19 234:19 235:3
236:14,22 237:18
238:19 242:18,25
243:9 244:4,7 247:18
248:19 251:16 255:14
259:23 262:2 265:23
270:24 273:24 278:16
282:12,13 283:20
286:2 294:23 295:10
295:16 304:6,7,15
305:10,25 306:23
307:6,10 310:17
320:22 325:21 326:7
326:9,14,17 328:16
328:19
old
216:6
omission
100:10
omitting
151:2
Omnifront
36:15
once
11:18 113:14 115:18
116:23 138:9 139:6
163:12 204:21 215:5
321:19
ones
28:14 48:1 51:13
121:12 132:12 196:10
199:14 279:6 294:14
ongoing
83:7 110:11
online

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

360
83:24 97:21 136:21
137:11 145:3 169:10
171:12 226:10,13
227:25 230:22 289:20
289:25 290:6 296:18
298:12 312:9
open
7:10 58:12,16,21,22,23
58:25 59:5,5,7,14,23
60:15,23 61:10,11,13
61:14 62:5 65:14
96:9,10,12 131:10
242:4 271:8
openly
107:12,21 108:6,8
operate
82:25 158:2 160:9
166:12 247:2
operated
133:22 212:17 221:7
operates
83:23 129:3,17 138:22
145:18 163:20 212:20
268:16 269:22
operating
74:19 83:9,15 114:16
181:4
operation
95:22 128:19 212:21
operational
168:20,24
operations
50:8 81:17 129:22
opinion
6:16 128:16 179:12
222:20 223:12 229:1
229:8 237:8 252:9
263:5
opinions
251:4 252:1,6
opportunity
11:8 77:11 222:22
opposed
38:5 114:16 118:6
273:19 277:25 292:15
314:5
Opposition

6:12
optical
29:24 30:1,8,17 32:14
33:20 44:4,10 45:16
45:18 113:22 193:8
200:21 284:17 320:24
optics
17:21
options
199:24
optometrists
109:16
oranges
103:23
order
14:21 40:15 77:8 91:11
91:17 149:2 174:2
195:20 324:22
organization
81:17 138:15 162:2
181:21 185:19,22
organizations
49:11 145:21 162:4,7
168:12 181:3 294:7
298:24 300:14
organization's
130:14
organize
93:1
orienting
202:19
origin
218:12
original
39:12 49:16 170:6
173:7 183:19 186:11
198:23 229:17 279:24
329:16
originally
136:22
outcome
228:10,19 237:3
329:13
outline
19:6
output
202:8

outputting
264:21
outside
189:2 218:7,9
outsourcers
218:16 219:1,23
overall
170:16
overarching
133:9
oversaw
81:13
overseeing
48:2,8
owned
43:3 68:21,25 76:20
98:24
owner
70:21 71:19,25 170:5
232:22

188:25 192:15,16,18
192:19 193:8 194:9
194:22 195:8,20,25
196:13,24 200:25
201:7,8,21 202:3,15
202:17,20 203:12
204:25 214:4,9 217:8
218:21 219:9 221:4,4
222:1,4,5,13 226:7
229:7,21 230:16
232:24 233:2,11
234:18,19 238:14,16
240:20,23 244:1,2,4,5
244:6 245:17,22
246:14,19 247:6,19
247:19 249:15 250:9
257:5 259:3,23
260:16 262:20 263:16
263:18 264:6,8 266:5
269:18 272:12,14
274:15 276:16 283:6
P
285:18 286:3 288:13
P
289:19 293:1,10
8:2
295:24 307:12,13
package
309:4 310:18 312:4
38:22 162:8,13,16
314:22,23 319:8,8,22
168:25
321:7,8,9,18 323:4,16
packages
326:15
162:21
pages
page
42:20 51:7,18 52:3,12
4:3,8 5:2 6:2 7:2,19,23
71:6 86:15 98:18
28:10 30:9,13,14 43:1
114:9,20 115:1,5,13
68:20 71:4 85:25
115:18 121:1 143:14
86:10,15 98:22 114:9
143:21 144:17 153:25
120:2,3,3 121:2
176:4,21,24 178:14
123:21 124:15,16
179:2,5 191:18 215:9
144:21,22,24 146:3
231:3 239:8 241:24
147:25 148:24 150:9
247:9 272:21 290:12
151:19 152:11,11
291:2 296:15 297:23
153:2,23 154:10,18
304:24 306:18,25
154:21 155:7 156:10
309:23 311:13,18,22
156:11 158:5 160:15
312:1,10,14,25
162:15,21,23 163:1
314:19,25 315:10,20
163:16 168:7,8 169:8
316:2,10,21 317:2
171:2,3 172:13,15
319:20 322:13,16
173:18,20,21 175:4
326:11
175:13,15 180:9,25
paid
182:24 183:7 188:1,2

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

361
111:2,5 163:10 178:9
218:8 256:23
Palo
9:12,19 74:24
palsy
53:17 86:9
paper
56:16 116:10
papers
16:12
paragraph
91:11,16 145:8 146:4
149:8,9 155:9 158:6
163:18 164:13 181:16
181:17 183:3,13
184:11 185:21 189:4
189:8 192:11,25
195:8,14 197:10
198:16 199:22 202:17
202:25,25 216:14,15
216:16,19,22 217:2,8
217:13 219:9 220:6
222:1,14 225:14,15
226:7,21 244:2,7
249:17 251:19 262:20
264:7 272:14,14
274:15 283:6 285:18
305:5 309:6 310:18
319:9 323:17
paragraphs
145:16 159:9 197:21
198:14 203:3,4,5
219:25 220:19 221:8
225:25 304:24
parent
135:16
parse
55:23
part
18:11 29:17,22 41:6
56:24 63:15 65:11
66:20,21 67:10 68:7
72:9 78:17 82:6
92:21 94:18,21
100:13 103:4 104:4,7
106:2 107:9 112:3
114:3,24 116:9

118:19 159:5 165:11
171:7 179:11 205:14
213:14 237:6 241:6
241:13 245:23 255:6
256:5,11,12,15
284:11 289:20 291:4
294:3,16 295:4,18
311:6 323:16,17
partial
235:4
participate
34:18
participating
205:23
participation
254:6,13,18 255:19
particle
28:3
particles
27:9,22
particular
28:20,24 43:9 50:3
56:25 168:4 175:15
232:17,17,25 300:11
309:25 322:1,6
parties
72:18 329:12
Partners
102:16 103:16,21
105:11
Partnership
99:2,14 100:14 102:8
102:23 103:5 104:5
104:14 106:7,19
parts
42:3,7 56:21 57:2 67:3
party
77:8 94:24 95:2 111:3
111:5 135:15 136:1
161:3 274:25
passage
148:8 158:4 159:10
160:6 168:16 170:12
180:22 181:10 190:7
194:8 261:8
passages
145:1

passed
46:16 180:24
password
134:2,7,11 163:13,15
224:11 236:5
pasting
288:12
Patapoff
3:25 8:12
patent
5:3 43:3,9 44:6 51:20
56:18,22 57:3 58:3
59:15 63:4,16 64:18
69:8,10,11,21,25 70:2
70:6,11,19,22 71:10
71:19 72:1,9,18 73:3
73:18,20 74:1,8 84:12
87:9 88:16 89:23
90:5,12 91:23
patented
70:18
patents
4:15,20,23 41:6 51:8
62:12 68:21
path
28:3
patron
239:17
patrons
205:15 238:22
pattern
29:3 44:5,7,7,9 45:2
46:23 47:5 278:17
patterns
44:12
pause
15:7 78:9 147:3 294:22
pay
94:18,23 95:2,4 96:1
110:6 111:10 162:9
218:16
paying
74:1 94:24 110:15
111:4 161:3
payment
100:19
payments

73:15
PC
54:7 56:6 59:2 188:9
188:13 268:17 284:9
PDF
116:5,18 161:17 206:7
206:11,24 245:22
271:11 272:7 284:16
284:18 287:10 309:11
309:15,21 310:10,15
310:20 311:7,14,19
312:1,7 313:1 315:1
315:10,20 316:2,10
316:21 319:23 320:15
PDFs
206:14,21
PDF-scanned
312:14
pending
10:21 11:21,25 51:19
52:13 94:10
Penguin
100:9
people
5:25 45:17 53:11 60:18
60:19 61:7,8 78:5
82:4 84:6,9 85:9,12
85:13,14,16,18 86:12
99:8,9 101:18 102:2
107:1 108:2,3 109:17
119:25 121:9,11,13
123:17 128:9 130:7
131:11 145:4,23
147:22 149:10 150:10
152:19 153:19,22
155:3 156:15,17
157:15 158:12,22
159:13,20 164:4
167:20 169:3,12,17
170:24 178:11 180:14
183:22 186:23 187:2
187:4 189:21 190:22
191:11 196:16 197:14
201:5,15 205:3,11
226:11 232:13 249:21
249:23 250:15 257:13
257:20 258:3,6,8,10

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

362
258:24 259:5,10,16
260:1,11,15 261:4,9
261:10,14,16,18
262:10,25 263:20,21
266:13,16 270:16
271:6 275:4,19,21
276:23 277:21,23
281:14,15,19,22,25
282:2,3,17 283:9
291:22 299:1,12
301:16,25 302:4,19
302:21
perceive
262:18
percent
113:12 121:12 154:13
155:1 160:4 262:10
Percheron
18:21,24
perfectly
124:7,16
perform
113:22 274:20,22
performance
22:22
performed
298:17 310:9 322:13
322:14
period
35:5 39:8 54:8 75:13
77:1 81:5 89:9
125:11
Perkins
199:2,16
permission
100:18 145:24 167:21
246:4 247:24 248:1
permit
158:8
permits
169:15 240:6
permitted
127:10,19 172:4
permitting
128:22
person
35:9,11 47:20 70:11

85:24 86:4,6,14 97:16
109:2 118:1,8 120:3
125:3 135:24 137:15
137:22 139:19,24
140:15 150:14,21
151:10,20 153:15
163:7 177:12,23
192:3 193:21 196:6
198:20,24,25 199:15
200:2 204:6,16 239:2
239:6 259:14 262:6
263:15 264:10 266:8
269:23 270:8,13
272:22 273:7,18
274:3,6,10 275:12,17
275:24 276:5,9,21
277:24 280:24 281:18
297:5 302:9,13,17
personal
56:3 88:9 200:4 264:15
personally
2:9
persons
169:23 170:10 182:2
263:23 298:20 299:5
306:11
philanthropy
112:1
Phoenix
19:22 20:10 21:23
phonetic
279:22,22
photoacoustic
23:19
photocopying
246:2
photographic
26:5
phrase
120:17 121:20 167:14
193:23 261:14 268:5
phrased
154:8 266:24
phrases
120:25
physical
30:24 53:14 149:18

150:6,11,21 151:10
151:15 154:2 263:15
physically
119:4 155:11 239:7
262:5
physics
17:2,3,11,16,22 18:10
27:8
Ph.D
17:24 18:8,12 24:11
pick
85:25 86:4 153:24
154:14 262:6 278:18
picking
86:14
picture
30:13 125:2 146:10
286:5
pictures
107:13,22 207:12
piece
57:24 96:12 118:8
pieces
188:13 284:8
pile
304:11
piracy
201:11 226:13 227:25
247:22
Pitney
49:13
place
8:14 12:15 50:17 90:16
106:1 166:19 235:12
237:20 249:7 318:20
323:25
placed
213:22
placeholder
308:6,9 324:6
plain
137:14
PLAINTIFF
1:6
plaintiffs
3:2 6:13 8:19,21 9:21
209:3,15 212:9

236:16,20
plaintiff's
12:10 13:8
plan
133:8 168:3 172:16,17
172:21,24 226:3
326:12,15,21 327:2
Planet
8:13 9:1
planning
125:24
plans
133:9
platform
83:23
play
126:18,25 127:7
210:13 236:22
player
140:22 141:3 142:10
pleadings
16:5
please
8:16 9:2,17 10:15,19
11:7 23:21 29:24
37:3 77:22 79:14
93:25 98:17 109:13
143:13 177:24 178:1
188:24 194:3 204:24
224:18 229:20 259:22
260:18 263:24 269:19
272:12 304:9
plot
63:25
plug
25:15
plus
26:11 45:19 58:24,25
163:14 299:9
point
10:14 11:4 29:5 42:6
54:1,6 77:20 199:9
216:24 243:3 254:22
260:20 306:14
pointed
251:7
pointing

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

363
199:15 251:18 307:11
points
128:12 170:21 309:1
policies
168:25
policy
80:9,12 165:16
political
301:10
poorly
191:9
population
154:14 160:4 281:21
portable
56:12 57:3,13 67:22
265:7 268:19
portion
90:21 113:6 192:11
236:1,5 242:2
portions
77:11
position
21:23 48:12 191:21,23
positions
19:21 28:13
possibility
124:24 242:11
possible
96:11 105:4 163:25
218:1
post
49:6,8 242:21 247:5,8
postal
45:24 46:5,14 49:10,12
49:13,19,20
posted
252:11,18 324:1,14
326:22
posting
253:2,10,18
posts
247:7
postsecondary
132:13,21
potential
152:14 174:2
potentially

77:6 105:16 195:20
Potter
301:9
powerful
36:24
powers
246:24
practice
32:14 74:1 179:4
preceded
38:17
precedes
198:16
precise
43:8 99:17 109:15
precisely
147:10
predates
69:3
prefer
105:5
preparation
15:22 299:1
prepare
12:24 14:3,13,21,23
15:3,14,19 251:24
prepared
98:13 210:24
preparing
37:6 48:4
present
3:24 78:20,25 133:16
180:23 206:15
presentation
195:6 269:24 289:17
presentations
194:13,15,23 196:1
presented
133:7 270:10
preservation
232:12
preserving
38:12
president
20:11 34:11,15 35:3,17
35:25 36:11 47:8,11
47:17,24 48:13,20

54:21 78:14,22 79:17
79:18,19 80:22,25
81:6,8
presorting
46:4 49:12
press
36:8 199:17 209:12
213:9
presses
102:19 199:3
presuming
273:18
pretty
32:4 36:24 131:10
prevent
101:18 221:11 224:1
239:6
prevents
149:5 239:2
previously
7:17 228:6 275:7
304:10 305:12 308:3
308:14 317:16
price
40:11,22,25 54:3,6
55:13 285:3 291:16
292:9,14
priced
40:16
prices
54:8
Prima
246:5
primacy
36:19
primarily
26:7 27:14 34:5 36:5
46:9 47:19 53:10,23
76:24 84:8 85:14
108:18 132:3 195:19
209:6,12 210:8
219:20,22 224:14
280:11
primary
26:22 34:20 36:8,18,23
45:6 62:1 93:4 109:1
121:12 128:12 132:20

148:21 168:3 170:23
181:22 187:11 213:10
principal
156:14
print
82:4 85:15,17,20,22
86:4,6,12,16,20 97:17
98:6 99:11 109:2,6
117:25 122:3,13,17
126:24 128:10 145:4
145:23 147:19 149:4
149:6 150:16,23
151:12 152:3 155:14
158:24 159:14,22
160:5,11 164:4
169:12,18 192:3
193:21 194:18 196:7
197:24 198:6,11
201:4 220:4,22
226:11,17 228:2
232:14 238:23,25
239:5,10 240:9
249:22 258:10,14,21
259:6,8,17 260:10,15
260:19,24 261:10
262:10,12 263:12
266:13,16 267:25
275:19 277:15 278:5
280:3,5 281:2,15,19
281:22,24 282:4
297:9,20 328:10
printed
37:6 78:6 85:23 86:15
113:15,20 117:10
123:21 127:7 154:3
193:7 200:13,25
204:1 231:4 239:3
246:18 309:21 311:9
printer
267:15,24,25 292:24
293:1
printing
199:3,17 301:1 302:3
printout
229:13
print-disabilities
205:12

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

364
print-disabled
104:24 118:1 127:12
135:25 147:23 198:7
198:11 200:13 217:12
233:24 239:20 244:12
249:23 250:16,17
260:2,7 261:5,15,16
261:18,21 263:22
281:11 283:10 296:17
301:17 324:2
prior
51:23 112:22 165:10
private
18:16,25 20:5 22:3,6
privilege
10:25 11:3
privileged
13:2 221:14 227:8
pro
177:20 178:9 254:6,9
proactively
299:18
probably
20:18 22:3,11,11 30:25
46:3 47:6 67:17
83:19 195:22 197:11
204:17 209:10 216:25
219:4,4 259:14
291:23 303:3 306:7
problem
22:19 105:25 124:22
153:8,18 184:25
214:21
problematic
260:3
problems
50:11 124:17 206:20
224:24 225:1 258:15
258:21,24 278:19,19
278:20,20
Procedure
13:4 221:16 227:10
procedures
324:22
proceeding
117:24 329:12
proceedings

329:9
process
30:2 32:7,17 45:25
46:1 86:7 101:17,24
103:2 105:12 114:17
115:21 116:9,23
117:11 122:4,6,19
123:20 125:24 126:2
126:17,22 137:7,9
171:21 174:2 200:3
287:3 290:5,7 291:10
310:9 312:10,13
316:15,16 321:1,16
processed
30:6 49:10 123:8,11
315:10,20 316:2,10
316:21
processes
101:20 106:18 114:25
116:25 119:2 125:16
processing
45:9,20 49:25 50:6
202:18 312:17
processor
30:10 285:21 287:7
288:16
produce
49:13 115:21 147:19
287:15
produced
42:25 54:16 257:2
325:6
product
34:5,7 36:5,6,24 37:24
38:5,8,17 39:12,16
46:9 49:5,9,22,24
53:23 55:25 56:10,13
57:1,1,16 58:9,11,16
58:16 60:6,9,17 61:10
61:11,22 62:1,21,25
63:10,15,21,25 64:25
67:16 68:3,6 70:14,18
76:25 81:15,18 83:14
83:21 84:1,3,9 85:4
87:15,20 89:4,16
92:14,18 93:13,18
94:5 96:10 97:11,16

97:21 169:1 187:11
230:9 271:7 289:16
292:10 316:17
production
147:7 287:5 289:10
productized
46:23
products
33:22 34:1 39:9 45:3,5
45:7,23 46:10,20,25
53:9,18,25 54:12
58:22 59:6 61:14
65:11 66:19,21 67:3
76:25 78:3 147:6
246:7 289:9,12,13,15
product's
89:12
professional
109:7,9,11 152:20
155:18 156:3,4
professionals
199:4
profit
76:20
program
24:11 99:2,5,14 100:14
102:9,16,17,18,23
103:5,16,21 104:5,14
105:11,19 106:7,19
107:4 161:18 264:15
269:22,22 285:4,12
288:14,15 291:17
292:1,19 293:14,15
294:1 295:23
programming
29:16
programs
82:14 111:15 112:5,9
285:5 291:18
progression
39:10
progressively
32:13
project
18:25 19:3 24:24 25:12
26:22 27:19 82:8,11
82:14,15 83:4,6,9,20

106:22,25 107:9,21
138:12,16,22 139:4
143:19 164:19 187:16
187:21,24,25 213:11
213:15 222:19 223:10
projects
24:25 25:11,16 28:24
29:12 82:12 186:2
187:3
promote
186:1
pronounced
40:6
pronouncing
18:21
pronunciation
18:22
proof
97:17,21 98:5 102:2
163:9
proofread
117:12 218:16 221:1,3
proofreading
117:16
proofreads
113:23
proper
106:1
properly
115:14
properties
37:8
property
173:4
proportion
110:5
proportional
27:19
proprietary
205:17,22 206:3
Propulsion
25:20 26:21
proscription
281:2
proscriptive
280:13,15,19
protect

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

365
181:7 326:21
protected
13:3 221:15 227:9
244:13,18 245:12,13
protecting
180:15
protection
56:22 57:4 63:16 134:3
134:11 244:23 245:9
protections
244:21 245:1,5
protective
77:8 91:11,17
protocols
221:11 224:7
prototype
20:19
provide
10:19 34:6 102:2 105:7
108:7 112:13,25
130:6 156:2 158:15
164:2,6 180:14
181:23 186:22 200:22
211:11 238:22 240:8
242:6 252:5
provided
169:18 181:8 191:19
210:16 223:23 256:3
266:6 309:10 312:6
319:9
provides
169:11 171:11 222:21
230:7,25 231:16
providing
102:5 187:1
provisionally
91:12
provisions
128:6 170:22
psychological
19:18 252:21 305:24
psychologists
109:18
psychology
19:8
psychometrics
19:11

public
40:17 53:7 75:5 81:12
81:19 83:16,16 84:19
85:3 92:10 127:18
128:25 148:16 164:8
190:12 209:7 232:21
296:8
publication
170:6
publications
103:4 301:14
publicly
50:24 68:16 83:11,13
98:14 109:21 210:7
Public.Resource
182:16 184:14 253:7
255:18 309:20 320:13
320:15 323:25 324:9
324:14,23 328:11
Public.Resource's
211:10 252:12,19
253:20 323:24 325:4
325:13 326:18,23
327:13,21 328:4
Public.Resource.Org
1:8 8:7,24 12:1 184:19
249:25 307:18 308:1
308:12,23 309:7,17
310:14 318:16 323:20
327:3
published
196:16
publisher
100:10 101:4,7 102:17
105:22 112:22 131:22
138:4,5 145:24 172:8
172:11 279:25
publishers
100:3,7,15,23,24
101:13,16,23 102:6
102:18,24 103:3,16
103:20,25 106:6,17
112:18 130:14,20
131:9,12 132:6,8,13
132:14,18,21 159:16
159:24 164:22,24
165:2 166:14 167:9

167:17 168:11 171:17
173:5 180:12,17
183:14 189:16,18,23
190:2,6,8 201:10
216:17,18
publishing
131:8,21 132:2,9
165:13 168:5 169:6
173:8 209:8 246:5
302:3
pull
52:22 304:9 325:18,22
pulsed
23:25
purchase
97:20
purchasing
309:21
purported
278:9
purpose
39:3 46:2 93:1,5
136:17 156:14 171:3
172:23 173:3,20
174:16 176:11 254:18
272:15 319:4
purposes
46:3 75:17 323:18
pursuant
91:10
pursue
186:5
put
28:1 31:18 41:18 90:18
90:20 113:21 176:18
225:4 303:18 305:11
306:14 325:25
puts
293:1
putting
288:15 304:2
Pythagorean
147:16
p.m
246:14 247:5,9 248:23
328:25
Q

quadriplegia
53:16
qualification
106:18 151:6 158:19
qualifications
149:25
qualified
184:20 239:18
qualifies
150:16,23 151:12,21
158:12 182:16
qualify
83:13 111:17 130:3
149:16 153:4,19
154:4,11 155:5
262:12
qualifying
101:15 109:2,5 128:10
130:7 149:18,23
150:6 156:8 170:24
183:18
quality
113:25 114:3,13,19,25
116:24 117:12,16,17
125:17 126:11 183:23
248:3 312:21
Quarles
3:3 8:19
question
10:15,16,20,21 13:2
14:16 31:20 55:7
75:7 78:1,11,17 79:12
90:20 91:21 94:4,9
101:13 102:12,19
103:8,12,20 106:4
107:14,18 117:5
122:15 125:7 139:2
148:8 157:8,14 161:8
163:3 167:13 174:14
176:24 177:25 188:15
191:8 194:5 195:1
198:5 200:11 203:24
205:21 215:23,24
217:12 221:9 223:13
227:20 234:17 243:23
245:3,15 251:16,17
257:14,16,23 258:17

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

366
raising
34:18
ran
27:7 58:21 80:5
random
100:9 302:10
range
41:4 54:3 76:19 86:11
194:16 285:8 306:8
rank
301:8
rare
44:13 172:1
rarely
201:14
rate
123:25 125:10
Ray
32:8,18
reach
137:10 300:2
reached
29:4 282:9
react
130:20
reacted
131:9,15
reaction
132:13 215:25
read
13:8 14:20 16:4 56:9
75:25 85:5,19 86:1,2
R
87:8,14 88:1 93:7,18
R
94:10,23 95:8,11
1:14 2:1,9 4:13 7:15
97:24 98:3,3 107:2
8:2 9:4 204:14
108:4 119:15,18
RAF
121:17 122:10 123:8
4:21 44:1,3,13 45:3,5
140:18 144:25,25
46:6,9 47:4,9,16,25
146:8,12 148:1,5
48:9,13,20,25 49:5,24
150:16,22 151:4,8,11
50:3,7,13 51:9,15,16
154:15,16 155:13
51:20 52:4,13,19
157:4 158:5 159:10
RAF's
159:14 160:5 170:12
45:23
170:21 190:7 192:10
raise
193:5 194:8 198:24
20:15,21
199:16 215:16 216:1
raises
219:25 224:18 225:6
77:19
263:4,7 266:24 267:5
275:23 286:8,14
295:2 301:4 306:1
314:10 315:14,16
318:2,21 320:9
questioner
295:15
questioning
15:22 207:20
questions
7:22 42:10 51:5 101:16
117:20 142:15 144:11
144:14 156:1 157:8
171:8 211:13 282:9
325:18 328:17
quick
143:24
quite
123:23 124:23 125:6
141:9 165:23 173:8
215:1 217:22 262:11
302:16 311:21 321:10
322:22
quotations
246:6
quote
109:15
quoted
246:18
quoting
264:14 296:21

242:2 243:17 246:23
252:4 259:8 260:16
261:9 266:18 270:16
271:25 272:23 273:4
273:5,13,18,19 274:3
274:9,12 276:25
285:24 291:10 292:5
309:25 310:1 311:2
315:3,8,19 316:8
320:5
reader
56:1,2,8,21 57:1,7
67:12 85:9 87:21
88:7,8,10,15,23 93:2
94:13,21 95:4,13,19
96:2 123:3 139:24
140:12 142:12 194:16
264:12,13,14,22
266:18 269:16,20,21
270:6,8,19 271:5,8,10
271:21 272:5,20
275:13 285:25 291:18
293:2,8,22 294:21
295:22 296:1 316:8
316:16,17,19
readers
94:2 142:20 275:22
291:8 316:14
reading
15:14,17 32:18 42:2
51:12 52:1 53:10,15
54:4,7,15 56:4 57:19
57:23 58:24 59:2
84:8 85:13 86:3
89:20 93:11 95:21
96:17,23 112:13,24
113:15 139:7 149:6
151:16,25 155:4
156:6 158:24 164:14
170:16 181:25 186:6
188:3,7,14,16,21
199:25 200:20 209:12
234:20 238:15 239:3
259:3 269:25 271:16
305:22 310:6 320:11
320:11 329:20,21,22
reads

196:8 264:16
ready
42:9 51:4 189:10
243:16 305:21,25
Read2Go
84:4,6,11,20 93:13
94:5 97:10,15
real
155:4
realize
11:4 137:20 155:3
really
29:20 92:18 130:16,21
131:17 204:11 303:8
305:14
reask
191:8 203:24 205:20
245:3
reason
10:19 11:10 143:20
148:21 151:1 157:14
161:4
reasonable
132:16
rebuttal
13:8 14:12,19
recall
18:7 20:13 24:18 26:23
34:24 36:12 42:18
46:6 50:2 56:13,17
57:8 60:1 63:13 86:2
192:1 196:17 209:2
223:14,15,25 228:9
237:3 242:20 279:16
291:12 292:13 310:2
recapitulate
170:21
receive
110:23 111:6 113:19
159:25
received
16:13 17:5
receiving
254:12,17
recess
20:25 43:13 91:6 143:5
185:5 208:11 248:24

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

367
282:23 327:8
recognition
4:17 29:4,25 30:1,8,17
32:15 33:2,5,10,18,20
34:4 36:15,20 37:24
38:8 40:2,3 41:11
42:16 43:3,25 44:4,5
44:6,7,9,11 45:2,16
45:19 46:21,24 47:5
49:9 50:7 113:22
115:2 123:25 124:8
125:10 193:9 200:21
202:20,21 278:18
284:18 287:3,19
312:18 320:24
recognize
21:16 42:15,20 43:2
44:24 45:15,17 51:8
51:19 52:4,12 68:19
69:2,9,20 98:19,23
124:16 180:4 185:13
213:24 241:24 242:1
270:18 288:21 311:4
321:9
recognized
36:20 152:21 267:20
285:19,22 286:15,21
286:25 287:2,8,9,15
288:19,25 289:4,10
291:10 322:16
recognizing
30:2 44:13 45:7,13
47:1 123:21
recollect
296:13
recollection
42:24 48:10,19 50:5
57:10 58:3 59:21
60:4 72:8 76:11
84:17 85:2 92:9
93:10 101:3 209:11
223:1 309:13
record
9:10 20:22,23 21:1,4
26:17 31:10 41:20
43:10,11,14 57:11
64:3,4,7,11,13,14

77:15 84:19 90:18,21
90:22 91:4,9 143:3,9
144:2 175:10,17,20
175:22,23,24 176:6
184:24 185:4,10
208:9,15 215:18,19
225:6 240:25 248:22
249:4 252:5 257:6
282:14,21,24 304:1
305:19 327:6,9
328:23 329:9
recording
246:2
records
68:17
reduce
24:3
refer
70:1 75:8,15 245:16
252:23 280:9
reference
286:10 302:7
references
259:19 260:4,19
referred
7:18 300:25
referring
186:13 257:7 259:4
268:6 283:5 289:19
refers
244:1
reframe
257:23 258:17
refresh
50:5 57:9 59:20 60:3
84:17 85:2 92:8
refreshable
200:5 268:3
regard
118:14 287:4
regarding
128:17 176:2
regimes
158:1
registered
52:4 56:18 57:7,13
58:3,9 59:14,24 62:6

63:3,10 64:18,25
84:11,21 87:8,15
88:16,23 89:22 90:4
90:11 91:23 92:2,14
98:19,23
registration
59:22 60:5 68:25 84:19
85:3 92:10
registrations
62:12
regular
159:22 178:14,22
179:4
regulation
109:9
regulations
109:20,25
regulatory
109:21
related
28:21 45:20 250:23
253:2
relating
181:24
relations
47:18 81:19
relationship
47:20
relationships
36:7
relatively
300:15
relay
132:18
release
83:16,16
released
39:8
relevant
298:25 302:2,12,19
relied
216:2
religious
114:11
remainder
30:15
remember

20:17 25:12,16 26:3,19
28:25 40:9 46:18
55:13 59:18 65:8
73:12 92:4,6 101:6
160:18 192:5 209:5
209:15,22 210:2
212:16 255:13 279:24
284:25 321:11,25
REMEMBERED
2:2
remote
22:20,23
removed
307:19
render
34:4 53:22 329:16
rendered
53:24 162:5
rendering
46:7
repeat
31:20 55:7
repeatedly
46:13
rephrase
55:7 122:15 281:20
replace
58:17
replaced
199:8
reply
16:6
report
7:14 13:7,8 14:11,12
14:18,19 15:24 16:12
29:23 211:4,11
248:16 249:9 250:8
251:1,5,9,10,20,23
252:4,7 256:12 257:5
257:6,12,18 258:2,7
259:2,18 263:25
264:14,23 265:3,5,11
265:17,23 266:20
267:8 269:18 272:13
272:15 276:17 281:9
283:6,14 285:14
294:9,17 295:24

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

368
296:3,16 298:9,16
306:17 307:4 309:5
310:17 311:6 314:23
317:3,4,25 318:8,14
319:21 323:5,17,19
reported
1:24 6:15,19 7:3,7
210:7 229:9 237:22
237:24 329:6
reporter
2:8 8:25 9:2 10:8 12:9
21:10 26:8,14 31:8
177:14,21 193:3
225:6 233:20 254:2
304:1 323:8 329:1,3
reporter's
329:17
reporting
34:20
reports
14:14 15:14 48:5
211:19 213:10 310:2
repository
210:1
represent
8:17 68:13 98:13 173:3
176:15,22 191:15
representation
175:13 176:2
representations
166:13 168:2
representative
152:18,24 317:8
319:10,14
represented
37:12 114:14 309:14
319:13
representing
8:12 9:1,21
represents
131:23 175:14
reproduced
169:19 245:24
reproduction
169:25
request
104:23 105:4 175:9

requested
299:16 329:20,22
requests
104:22
require
206:6,24 244:22
required
39:11,16 171:12
198:18 207:5 218:14
256:6,9
requirement
148:18 157:18 163:4
requirements
109:8 155:16 164:15
164:18 169:14 182:6
325:11
requires
77:21
requiring
274:23
reread
13:7 242:13
rereading
195:13
research
1:4 8:6 23:3,8,9,11,13
23:15 24:20 26:1
184:18 209:25 213:20
235:17
reservation
252:3
reserve
251:21
resource
260:22
resources
39:11 125:25
respect
118:2 135:16 158:20
207:14 240:9 248:2
254:23
respective
246:9
respond
234:23 235:7
responding
104:21

responses
10:11
responsibilities
20:12 22:15,17 23:1
24:20 26:20 34:14,17
34:21,24 35:2,17,24
36:3,9,10 47:15,16,24
48:3,12,20 79:13,16
79:23 80:19,25 81:10
81:23
responsible
48:7 80:1 81:16,20
104:21 135:15,25
rest
149:8 199:9 243:17
263:25 283:3 321:14
322:8 325:25
restate
107:18
Restricted
246:17
restriction
325:7
restrictions
327:19 328:2,9
restricts
159:19
result
76:1 102:7 167:5
310:21
resulting
278:1 285:21
results
172:2 312:18 317:22
318:19
resume
19:20 21:6,8,20 28:9
32:25 34:9 52:23
53:2 74:13,15 78:23
124:3
retained
16:3 249:24
Retaining
48:6
retains
230:20
retrieval

26:6 246:3
revealing
227:21
reversing
123:13 271:17
review
14:12 42:4 143:14
223:15 228:3,25
237:8 241:7,14
242:23 246:7 283:7
283:12,21 284:11
289:21 290:5 291:4
294:3,17 295:5,19
305:20 311:25 312:3
322:6 323:18 325:4
326:18
reviewed
15:19 178:8 222:16
223:9,10 249:11
320:7 323:19 325:23
reviewing
14:11,18 16:11 319:21
reworks
198:20
re-mark
131:2 303:20
rhythm
15:11
rich
116:7
right
10:18 11:2 12:24 13:23
14:1,6 16:3 18:21,24
21:21,25 22:1 23:7
33:9,17 42:12 44:15
44:24 47:14 53:1
60:14 65:10 69:12
70:5 75:2 83:6 92:1
94:3 97:15 103:1,18
104:13 117:9 119:1
121:3 122:2 124:18
129:14,24 130:19
131:3,3,25 134:9,18
135:2 139:6 141:17
143:2 144:21 150:4
151:8,19 152:3 159:7
164:13 166:21 170:12

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

369
170:14 176:5,17,21
177:4,17 178:21
179:11,21 183:9,9
186:15 187:7 188:6
192:10,22,23 193:19
199:14 202:5 203:2
206:23 221:22 222:14
228:18 230:1,16
233:11 235:4,20
238:11 242:20 243:5
243:17,22 244:10
245:21 250:7,22
251:21 257:10,22
258:18 261:25 262:15
262:19 264:6 270:2
275:11,11 276:7
282:19 286:14 287:17
288:4 295:16 297:14
298:3 304:7 305:2,18
307:9,9,22 312:11,13
314:10 315:5,6,16
319:13,19 328:19
rights
67:2 73:25 108:14,17
133:8 159:15 168:2
172:16,16,21 186:24
187:9 226:2 245:9
248:3 326:12,21
right-hand
144:19 233:13 234:21
238:16 240:23
risk
226:13 227:25 241:4
risks
29:18
Road
9:12
Robert
9:11
rocket
18:16,25 19:4 20:5,15
20:19 22:7,21,24
rocket's
22:22
role
34:22,25 35:3 36:4
80:1 81:21 210:13

236:22
roles
47:15
rolled
222:6
Roman
37:17
rough
40:5
roughly
165:10 184:8
route
46:12 106:21 107:9,12
107:20,21 108:7
187:5
routed
45:18
routes
64:1
routing
45:9 46:14
royalties
72:23 73:18
royalty
73:14 74:1 159:25
RPR-RMR-CRR-C...
1:25 2:7 329:25
RTF
116:3,7
rubrics
129:17
rudeness
218:18
rule
13:4 111:13 221:15
227:9 256:17,24
rules
10:3 158:18,21 221:16
227:10 256:6
run
111:15
running
58:18 139:25
runs
82:12 264:15
S
S

8:2
safeguard
241:3
safeguards
106:1
sake
243:2
sale
35:10 40:11,21 53:25
54:3 55:13,15 65:7,12
66:20,21 67:3,11 68:7
72:9 76:2,22 77:2
297:12,21,24 298:4
sales
34:5 35:12 53:23
salesperson
35:9
Sammy
279:22
San
3:21
Santa
20:8,8
satisfied
102:6
satisfying
105:8
save
105:16 183:20
saw
126:15 292:6 320:6
321:21 327:21
saying
10:9 138:10 156:7
171:17 212:10 216:3
223:14 282:19
says
120:12 126:20 145:8
145:17 146:4,11,22
148:2,25 150:13
153:1 154:12 156:11
160:21 162:24 164:13
168:8 169:9 174:5
180:10 181:1,17
183:3,12 186:8,19
188:2 192:13,25
193:5 194:14 196:24

197:22 198:22 199:22
200:19 201:9 202:5
219:10 222:1 229:23
230:18 231:11,15
232:7 233:14 234:22
235:6 238:8,17,19
239:15 240:24 244:10
245:21 249:18 256:24
272:18 274:3 292:25
296:16
scale
138:3,3
scan
56:8 99:8 105:6,6,17
116:10 117:11 126:18
126:22 218:10 220:3
220:21 221:2,2,4
310:21,24 312:22
Scanjet
56:5,15
scanned
30:12 99:6 114:20
115:13 126:3 133:13
213:14 220:20 231:1
231:3 267:19 311:21
312:18
scanner
56:5,12,15,15,16 57:3
57:13 58:25 67:22
113:21 188:11
scanning
30:8 45:9 113:4 115:21
125:16 127:7 193:7
195:20 210:1 213:11
213:15 217:15 218:13
220:2 221:3 309:23
scans
116:16
scars
44:25
school
19:7,8,10,13 29:15
135:18 136:12 137:18
schools
162:3
Schuster
100:8

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

370
science
16:16 17:10 28:22 29:3
247:14,16 248:12
scientific
55:9,16 65:7 67:10
71:11 72:10 76:2,14
132:10 270:20
scope
80:15 184:16
Scratch
228:14
scream
23:22
screen
56:7 88:8,8,10 143:15
161:16 173:24 175:14
176:23 264:11,13,14
264:17,21,24 265:3
266:18 268:15,17
269:19,21 270:1,6,8
270:10,19 271:5,6,8
271:10,15,21 272:1,5
272:20,21 275:13,15
275:22,23 276:3
285:24 291:8,18
293:2,7,8,21 295:22
316:8,14,15,17,19
screeners
271:14
Screenshots
5:12
Scrolling
225:3
se
118:7
seal
180:21
search
119:6,6 120:5,7,9,14
121:4,19 230:23
232:15,16,23 259:18
277:6 279:2 289:24
294:5 295:25 296:18
308:11 317:21 318:5
318:13 324:13
searchable
30:20 31:14,25

searched
31:5 171:18 253:5
296:16 299:22 300:10
searches
121:5,20 232:12 273:2
279:11 298:11 315:4
315:9 316:1,20
Sebastian
3:19 8:22 248:15
second
7:4 69:7,9 77:4 120:16
124:16 149:9 155:8
158:6 175:18 181:16
181:17 183:2,12
189:8 222:4 237:23
238:17,20 251:19
262:20 266:5 272:18
274:15 294:22 321:8
secondary
132:17
seconds
41:20
section
120:13,14,16 148:4
155:25 158:14 163:24
210:9 321:20
sector
186:22
secure
133:25 166:8 183:17
234:1,15
secured
134:10
security
221:11 223:25 227:3
228:4 235:9,11,21
241:1,14
see
23:24 78:21 109:16
124:10 144:18 146:14
156:16 166:24 174:8
174:12 179:16 188:4
192:13 223:14 235:18
244:15 245:19 246:11
250:5 256:19 272:16
277:12 278:20,21
280:24 285:20 290:1

290:1,12 311:22
312:23 313:24 314:18
318:15,18 321:22
seeing
255:13 274:8 314:7
seeking
128:16,18
seen
12:17 14:8 136:14
212:10 314:6
sees
174:14
segment
130:23 165:8
segments
131:8 132:9,11
seizure
280:22,25
select
176:4 314:25
selected
312:10,25
selections
93:2
sell
46:10,11 49:19 55:6,8
selling
39:3
semiconductor
28:23
semiconductors
24:6
semiconductor-based
29:8
send
105:13 292:25
Sendero
73:8,10,19
sending
267:13,14
senior
57:20
sense
92:24 102:13 103:9
266:25 267:6 310:3
sensible
270:15

sent
254:24 255:1 267:23
267:24
sentence
151:2,6 154:22,24,25
155:8,21 159:5 168:7
181:17 183:12 189:8
200:19 223:5,8 235:4
248:6,14 251:19
266:5 272:18 275:1
286:4 307:11
separate
62:13 94:16 95:24 96:1
96:23 97:4 102:18,18
139:25 142:5 269:21
303:20 316:17
September
1:16 2:3 8:1,10 161:13
161:14
series
34:1 39:8 76:6 78:4
117:20 119:2 142:15
325:17
serifs
37:16
Serotek
271:2
serve
135:19 158:22 296:17
servers
133:23 166:4
serves
179:2
service
45:24 49:11,20 52:18
54:2 96:18 161:3
164:25 165:22 166:4
166:13 169:3 239:16
289:20 290:6 294:1
295:8,22 312:9
services
34:3,6,7 45:24 46:6,11
46:25 47:4 49:20
53:21,24 76:22,23,24
104:20,25 105:3,10
110:24 111:7 133:17
137:25 156:19 157:13

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

371
157:24 158:15 181:23
serving
156:21
SESSION
4:5 143:8
set
37:10 80:7,9,12 87:24
158:7,18 184:10
280:17 329:18
sets
46:17
setup
110:1,6 160:24
seven
69:4 185:14
seven-point
133:8 168:2 172:21
226:2
severe
86:8 159:23 258:9
SFWA
247:14,20 248:10
share
132:23
shared
206:2
sheet
56:16 321:7
short
207:20 277:20
shorthand
2:7 283:3,14 329:3
shot
161:17 173:24 175:14
shots
143:15 161:23 176:23
show
68:11 69:17 97:17
98:10 180:2 190:18
278:16
showed
62:10
showing
97:21 98:5 124:25
297:24
shown
179:5 255:12

sic
222:22
side-by-side
311:11
sighted
100:16 106:2 167:20
198:19,24 199:15
200:2 221:12 270:16
274:6
sign
101:15 105:10 135:7
135:17,19 148:4,9,13
148:18,22 156:7
163:2 174:6
signal
28:6
signals
27:21,24 29:11
signature
214:3,6,10,12
signed
248:9
significant
153:8 158:23 165:16
197:11 218:17 291:3
294:14
significantly
151:15,24
signing
101:18 135:15 329:20
329:21,22
sign-up
101:17,24 103:2 148:1
148:19 173:20,25
324:21
silicon
23:23 24:3 145:11
similar
37:13 48:1 51:23 58:14
60:15 111:25 141:21
259:7,9 274:6 276:22
similarly
326:14
Simon
100:8
simple
29:23

simply
61:10 159:17 166:16
166:22 231:11
simulation
29:3
simultaneously
17:1
single
68:20 138:4
sir
9:9 15:25
sit
29:1 71:18 279:7 280:5
303:10
site
84:2 87:25 89:10 92:21
92:23 94:22 95:18,20
125:19 126:7 128:23
130:7 134:19 135:9
137:19,21 139:20
140:2 141:2 143:16
143:17,18,19 144:22
146:17 148:11,15
161:11 164:5 167:10
167:19 171:4,14,19
173:13 174:11,19
175:6,15,16 176:4,23
179:1 222:20 223:2
223:11,16,19 224:1
228:4 250:3 252:12
252:19 253:8,8,11,14
253:19,20,21 297:24
307:18 308:1,12,23
309:17 317:11,15
318:7,15,17,24
319:17,24,24 320:1
320:16,17 322:8
323:20,25 324:1,9,15
324:23 325:5,13,24
326:16,19,19,20,23
327:3,13,14,22 328:5
328:11
sites
253:4,6,25 294:6
295:23 299:8,9,10
301:2 302:7
site's

95:22
six
27:25 99:18 219:12
sixth
71:5
size
39:13 301:8
[e-mail]...
3:23
skills
274:19
skim
121:19
skimming
121:8,9
skip
159:9 198:13
skipping
149:8 197:21 232:6
slate
267:2 268:9
slipped
323:6
small
110:5 302:2,5
smartphone
141:6,10,22 142:10
264:16
Snagit
161:21,22,22 175:14
176:22
Snavely
235:13
snippets
230:24
social
5:20 75:23 82:13,15
159:12 180:11 186:4
186:22 189:20,25
software
29:3 35:5 38:5 39:16
56:6 57:6,12 58:8,16
58:18,21 59:8,23
60:17,23 61:15 62:4
63:9 64:24 78:4
83:24 84:20 87:14
88:22 92:13 98:23

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

372
108:13 142:9 161:25
187:21,24 200:4
239:24 268:16 269:21
284:1,8,12,17 285:1,5
289:3 290:8 291:5,13
291:18 293:18 295:6
295:21 312:9 315:3,7
315:18,25 316:8,14
316:20
software-hardware
38:22
software-only
59:1
sold
41:7 53:19 58:24 67:9
68:7 70:14 76:14
77:1 291:25
solely
30:24 234:2
solution
49:19,22 184:12
solutions
185:25 186:23 187:1
solve
50:11 263:20,21
somebody
90:5 96:7 261:24 262:1
someone's
114:9
something's
69:4
Soon
326:2
sorry
15:8 18:19 26:14 39:1
43:15 48:16 59:12
76:17 78:7 103:22
107:14,17 115:10
119:24 132:15 187:14
194:3 220:11 222:11
222:12 225:15,22
228:14 243:9 251:14
256:13 296:8 300:20
307:1 318:15 323:1
sort
23:24 50:11 73:25
138:24

sorting
50:8
sought
56:22 57:3
sound
24:1
sounds
27:23 132:16 257:21
258:16
source
30:24 31:17 96:9,10,12
136:22 213:5,10
271:8 287:5
sources
213:13
so-and-so
45:14
space
26:11 28:8
Spacel
26:5,11
spans
191:18 247:9 264:8
307:12
speak
14:1,24 15:2 200:8
272:6
speaking
300:15
speaks
63:22 64:17,25 66:4
226:23
special
112:4,9 156:22 157:11
157:15,18,25 279:20
specialized
56:6 109:17 169:21
170:2,7 181:23
specialty
202:21
specific
91:14 209:11 277:6
specifically
60:17 302:1 321:11
specifications
280:17
specifics

108:19
specified
81:8 158:11
specify
280:10
spectrum
32:13 285:12
speculation
102:11 103:14 106:15
131:19 139:11 188:19
213:8,17 245:6
283:17 325:1
speech
41:11 194:19 196:10
198:1 200:10 204:2
264:18,20 270:3,7
272:3,6 292:21,24
293:4,20
speed
98:12
spell
26:9 73:10
spelling
18:21
spend
264:3
spent
20:20
spoken
13:20 239:25 293:4
spot
115:2 290:17,18,20,24
spotted
290:25
spotting
121:8
spot-checking
51:14,25
spreadsheet
4:14,19 5:8 293:11
Squared
271:4
squat
37:15
staff
213:3 224:8 234:8,10
stage

47:21
stakeholders
131:23 169:5
stamina
154:2
stand
217:21
standard
48:1 56:3 80:2 85:20
85:22 150:16,23
151:12 153:6 155:14
160:5 175:7 188:13
205:1,2,2,5 206:3
207:8 249:22 261:7
266:7 272:22,25
273:4,12 274:23
280:10 284:19,22
standards
46:14 158:7 252:20,24
253:3,10,19,25
259:25 260:4 261:1,2
264:24 265:6,12,18
265:24 266:21 267:9
268:3 283:9,21
284:15,23 296:19
297:21,24 298:4,12
298:20 299:5 300:24
301:13,16 302:18,20
303:11 305:23 306:6
306:10 307:17 308:3
308:13,22 309:8,12
309:16,22 310:10,14
310:19 311:8 312:7
312:15 313:1 315:1,8
315:19 316:9 317:5
317:10,16 318:6,23
319:11,15 320:16,18
320:23 321:8,12
322:9 324:7,14 325:5
325:13 326:22 327:14
327:21 328:4,11
stands
116:7,21 247:14
stand-alone
82:16 291:25 292:10
Stanford
18:1 24:12

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

373
start
17:23 20:15 25:13,14
28:15 174:2
started
10:2 28:16,18 29:6
54:10 74:19 76:1
99:14 148:3 295:14
starting
24:11 28:25 33:1 80:21
233:12 240:21 244:7
260:20
starts
189:5 202:3 244:2
272:14
state
2:8 8:17 9:9 123:19
190:8 220:15 240:16
329:3
stated
232:3
statement
60:5 85:3 153:10 154:5
154:17 164:9 220:1,6
226:20 227:24 234:13
256:22 257:21 258:16
302:8 315:13
statements
176:10
states
1:1 5:3 110:9,20
158:14 163:23 170:25
233:7 302:17
stating
155:1 298:16
statistics
204:22
status
53:8
statute
109:23 128:8
statutory
81:23 109:20
stays
31:5 160:3
step
117:16,18 273:24
steps

202:18 203:7,9 292:19
Steve
3:25 8:12
stipulate
144:1 175:10 176:3,14
stipulated
176:7
stipulation
161:8 176:9
stock
40:17,25
stop
223:10 235:1,1 293:4
stopped
79:19 318:20
storage
166:3 246:3
Store
94:8
stored
133:13
straight
124:14 125:5
straightening
202:20
strategy
47:18 190:13
stream
292:25
Street
2:5 3:5,13,20 8:14
stretch
91:2
strict
181:6
Strider
62:22 63:3,9,15 64:2
65:24 70:15,17
structural
277:1
structure
119:24 120:11 121:18
133:9 207:11 293:5,6
structured
75:4 102:13 120:6,10
structures
75:14

stuck
321:18
student
26:1 27:11 93:7 104:18
104:20,24,25 105:3,7
105:8,9 126:24
137:20 162:12
students
99:6 104:22 132:22,24
135:19 156:18,22
157:17,23,25 160:22
213:2 218:15 222:23
223:23 224:9 233:25
234:2,9 260:6,23
301:24
student's
157:15
studied
212:21
studies
16:22,25 17:23
study
185:18 256:23
stuff
126:11
stunned
73:17
stylized
321:7
stylus
267:3 268:10
subject
63:16 70:19 151:5
167:10,19 175:12
176:1
subjected
312:25
submit
211:4,19,21 212:12
submitted
214:22 215:5 242:12
subpoena
4:10 12:17 14:9 256:5
subscribe
111:18
subscriber
95:18

subscription
94:25 95:3,18,20,24
162:12
subset
281:15,18 286:21
subsidiary
76:20
substance
227:21
substituting
56:14
sue
190:3
suggestion
79:20
Suite
3:5
sum
15:18
summarize
121:16 153:10 154:6
154:18
summarized
248:13
summarizing
171:25 248:11 296:20
296:22
summary
6:6,14 182:6 211:23
212:6,13 220:9
228:21 237:7 240:16
summer
24:10,10,13,13,15,17
27:3,11
summers
25:4,6,7
SuperNova
270:24
supervisor
81:25
supplement
215:13 251:22
supplemental
6:9 214:1 224:17
325:19 326:10
supplied
112:17 163:9

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

374
supplying
112:22
support
6:5,11 54:2 147:6
164:19 169:4 212:13
247:25
supported
168:14
supporting
109:25
supposed
114:8
sure
25:24 31:10,19 42:12
67:15,17 77:4 79:6
104:1,16 107:19
114:20 124:5 142:5
147:8 220:17 223:20
242:24 247:13 257:24
274:2 290:25 294:15
294:25 309:24 323:9
surprising
165:14
surviving
41:14
sustained
237:5
swear
9:2 114:12
swims
44:22
switching
237:16
sworn
2:11 9:5 329:5
symbols
37:11
synthesized
200:8 292:21,24
293:20
synthesizer
56:7 188:10
synthetic
194:18 196:9 202:8
system
22:23,24 25:13 26:6
31:18 59:2 136:6,18

183:18 188:21 205:14
230:22 234:1,9,15
236:2,5 246:4 268:15
271:2 276:4 278:18
systems
4:17 22:21,21 33:2,5
33:10,18 34:4,19
37:25 38:9 40:2,3
42:17 43:4,25 53:10
200:20 224:8 264:25
275:16,24
S-E-N-D-E-R-O
73:11
S-T-R-I-D-E-R
62:22
T
table
120:8,15
tablet
141:18 142:9
tactile
147:11,12,15,18
197:25 207:12 269:16
270:13,14,15
tagged
116:22
tail
44:15,16,17,20
tails
44:14,25
take
10:22 42:14 43:19 47:7
64:9 69:18 90:25
113:20 117:9 139:17
142:25 143:13 171:19
207:20 208:8 242:9
248:17 282:8 314:2
327:4
takedown
308:7 318:17 324:7
taken
20:25 43:13 91:6
135:22 143:5 185:5
208:11 248:24 282:23
327:8
taker
140:16,18 142:12

268:8
takes
106:3 269:15
talk
24:6 32:25 50:10
103:24 104:2 142:22
167:1 216:22 217:7
218:20 251:12 326:11
talked
77:16 166:2 189:2
190:4 258:5
talking
15:22 54:7 62:24 94:1
117:25 129:5 138:6
141:25 142:4,5,12,13
160:17 168:16 190:6
195:19 198:16 202:24
284:22 306:24 314:5
talks
202:18,19 305:8
tall
37:15
tan
245:18,18
tape
8:4 90:19,23 91:5,7
185:2,8 249:3
target
82:13,15
targeted
49:9
task
23:22 119:12 120:19
277:25 278:2
tasks
118:7,11 119:20,25
121:10,15 192:2,8
193:20 194:1,11
274:16,20 275:18
276:22
taught
29:15
teacher
119:5 135:18 136:12
teachers
93:6
team

80:14 217:24
team's
80:16
tech
35:9,11
technical
35:4 50:11 81:18
132:15 155:15 245:9
technically
55:23
technique
24:2 199:1
techniques
197:24 198:6,10
technological
283:23
technologies
62:11 67:9 168:25
200:11 239:24 259:7
275:6
technology
4:21 5:20,23 16:14
17:6 28:19,20 29:8
35:8,12 36:15 43:5
44:1 47:19 49:1,5,18
49:24,25 50:6,7 51:9
51:20 52:5,14 54:11
54:17 58:17 59:3
61:9,16,23 62:2,5,14
70:11,18 72:4 74:22
75:10,23 76:16 82:24
83:14,21,25 84:2
87:24 88:3,6 98:20,24
123:19 139:14,17,25
140:1 141:13 142:13
144:2 145:12 147:6
185:25 186:23 187:1
190:21 191:11 196:15
197:12 198:3 199:9
199:23 203:7,10
206:6,17,24 207:6
264:9 265:19,25
266:15 267:2 269:7
269:10,12,20 270:19
271:10,22 272:5
273:15,19,21 274:12
274:19 275:2,4,13

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

375
276:8 279:20 283:25
287:10,20 288:20
289:13,16
telemetry
22:21
Telephone
3:7,15,22
television
265:19 269:7 276:8
tell
75:6 101:23 136:25
144:10 215:8 224:19
237:17 293:9 301:15
302:19,25
telling
266:15
ten
241:23 277:18
tend
163:14
tends
114:14 137:16
tens
302:22
term
36:18 50:3 70:10 73:24
79:19 92:10 109:22
117:22 118:6,21
119:1 132:16 177:1,2
232:18,25 233:1
269:8 273:17 283:11
284:21 285:19 286:4
terms
29:23 50:9 73:12 172:1
174:11,18,25 175:5
232:17 268:13 277:6
285:15 286:10,12
326:20
territory
196:5
test
46:16 280:24 298:25
tested
20:19 83:15 274:17
testified
9:6 12:6 138:13 250:17
257:2

testify
4:10 11:11 14:3,13,21
14:23 15:3,19 211:15
211:17
testifying
12:22,25 14:7 249:11
testimony
10:5 16:1 59:4,11
74:10 86:18 93:23
95:15 104:9 106:16
108:1 113:2 117:14
121:23 129:19 165:10
166:10 173:15 236:9
256:24 261:12 277:4
281:6 283:4 329:6
testing
83:18,19 252:21
280:18 281:4 301:24
305:24
tests
19:14,18 114:8 260:5,8
322:13
text
30:14 31:14,19,25
106:2 107:8,13,22
116:7 123:14,15
124:3,14 125:5
137:15 151:2,4 153:8
157:3 170:8 172:15
192:13,25 193:2,6,10
193:13,16,22,24
194:7,12,17,22 195:5
195:9 197:2 200:9,9
202:13 204:1,6,9,12
207:11 223:22 231:4
233:15 238:24 239:25
240:1 245:17 262:6
263:13 264:18,20
266:6,9,11,18 267:13
267:14,17,17,20,20
267:23,24 269:15
270:2,7,9 272:3,6,6
273:12 284:19 285:19
285:22 286:4,16,16
286:21,22,25 287:1,2
287:2,4,4,7,9,15,17
288:5,11,14,19,19,25

289:5,11 291:10
297:6,15 311:7
312:18,18 315:3,8,19
316:9 317:9,15
319:10 322:2,15
textbook
132:23 137:18
textbooks
105:14 216:23 219:2
texts
30:20 207:25 233:22
textual
112:13,24 113:14
119:15 139:6 245:4
289:4 292:20 293:20
305:14,16,20 317:3
text-to-speech
142:20
thank
18:23 21:9,14 32:6
52:25 69:15 75:19
77:24 79:4 91:19
98:15 105:20 149:21
161:23 174:22 183:10
183:10 191:8 201:25
207:23 211:5 238:10
238:12 243:1,9
257:25 264:4 320:10
323:15 328:14,16
theme
268:21
theorem
147:16
theory
254:24
thereof
2:4
They'd
273:15
thing
92:24 126:13 130:25
138:3 151:9 164:14
211:2 255:12 297:8
297:10 321:18
things
13:12 23:17 28:3 30:5
45:1 47:1 48:7 82:25

92:22 123:16 137:24
162:20 166:12,15
167:3,4 169:2 172:10
184:10 216:6 223:12
248:11 274:11 277:18
278:21 293:9,13
think
15:13 26:8 67:16,18
69:10 83:23,25 117:7
118:6 122:22 124:21
124:23 127:18 132:11
138:3 142:24 161:5
162:8 165:20,20
166:25 170:20 184:21
195:19 196:4 211:3
216:20,24 221:17,17
223:4 234:7,14 238:6
240:15 242:11 247:3
248:17 255:3 256:4
257:2 259:21 263:11
271:6 280:16 289:8
292:23 293:21 294:10
296:3 300:1,15
303:22 304:16,18
321:12
thinking
195:22
third
72:18 94:24 95:2 111:3
111:5 146:4 161:3
189:4 244:2 264:7
274:24 297:10 307:9
third-party
295:23
thought
61:5 78:8,8 218:10
222:11 234:9 289:25
299:17
thousand
23:16 292:16,16
302:23
thousands
285:8 302:22 303:1
three
39:13 75:16 127:19
128:21,25 129:17
183:8 186:21 188:12

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

376
197:23 198:5,9,10
217:1,19 218:5
232:11
thumbing
305:19
TIFF
116:16,21,23 122:4,14
122:18,23 123:7
till
254:22
time
8:11 12:3 20:20 23:14
24:21 33:22 35:5,21
36:4 38:21 39:8
40:18 42:1 43:4,16
45:23 46:7 53:22
54:1,8 59:6 67:19
68:22 69:1 73:4 74:7
75:13 76:7 81:5 89:9
90:25 91:15 103:19
112:16 125:11 130:19
135:2 139:18 183:21
185:3 187:20 215:10
215:21 216:16,24
217:1 223:19 240:3
240:17 248:17 252:11
254:9,15 264:2,3
282:11 286:24 295:12
308:22 309:18 314:2
317:11 318:24 319:17
322:7 328:18
times
37:17 204:16 233:1
300:9
title
5:6 20:10 22:13 24:16
24:18 27:10 43:2
81:6 114:11 148:1
181:15 191:2,5 247:3
302:11 309:6 317:4
titled
191:12 192:20 208:18
titles
68:21 78:19 81:11
162:9
today
8:12,25 11:12 12:19,22

12:25 14:8,13,21,23
15:3 29:1 33:6,8,12
54:25 71:18 76:8
82:24 83:7 89:17
113:7 165:14 184:12
192:1 193:15 197:3
197:15 199:1,11,20
199:23 200:12 205:5
217:9 218:5 219:15
224:19 226:1 249:12
263:12 279:7 304:11
Today's
8:10
told
14:7 24:19 29:13 34:23
35:16 36:12 48:11,18
50:6 210:25 307:15
317:8
tongue
304:19
tool
219:23 278:9,12,24
279:21,25 315:3,7,19
316:8,20
tools
78:4 199:4 278:17
279:3,16 280:2
283:20,24 284:4,6
293:25 294:16 295:4
295:17 296:11
top
22:25 23:23 61:9 68:20
139:25 150:13 156:11
181:1 189:17 201:9
203:13 230:17 233:13
238:16 244:1 247:19
249:17 250:8 268:16
269:22 286:3 289:9
289:19 307:12 309:4
321:13 323:17
topic
250:23
topics
51:24 302:4
total
15:16,18 86:23
totally

257:13,19 258:3 261:9
261:22 275:12
touches
101:14
trace
136:21,25
track
28:7 47:2 86:1
tracks
137:23
trade
75:9 131:9 132:5,10,14
trademark
52:13 56:19 58:4 59:15
63:4 64:18 84:12
87:9 88:16 89:23
90:5,12 91:23 92:3
trademarks
4:15,20,23 5:9 41:6
42:14,15,16,18 52:4
52:10 62:12 98:20
246:9
tradition
131:10
traditional
149:6 197:1,7,8
trained
36:21
training
19:7,8,11,14 181:24
transactions
76:7
transcribed
329:7
transcript
77:9,12 91:13,14
144:18 310:7 329:16
transcription
200:4 329:8
transcripts
320:12
transfer
140:16 141:2
transferred
67:3 79:15
transformation
199:10

transformations
198:14,15,17
transition
58:14
translating
30:4
transmitted
245:24
traumatic
53:17
Treasury
47:2
treating
138:24
tremendous
190:1
trial
12:6 208:19 211:17
212:8 236:16
triangle
147:17
tried
20:15 28:18 137:22
tries
159:12
trigger
280:21
truck
304:15,18
true
32:4 51:3 62:16 69:7
97:24 197:3 201:17
211:9 220:1,19
258:20 296:19 299:20
317:7,7 329:9
TrueScan
38:9,11,16,21 39:4,14
56:4 58:15 188:22
trust
233:9
trustworthy
235:15
truthfully
11:12
try
10:15 15:7 119:7
129:21 147:4 220:12

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

377
trying
20:20 28:14 29:19
115:2 156:2,2 160:12
195:17
TTS
200:10 264:19
Tuesday
1:16 2:2
tune
204:22
turn
25:15 32:24 43:1 54:7
56:3 59:2 71:2,4
108:19 144:24 146:3
147:25 148:24 150:9
153:2,23,25 154:10
155:7 156:10 160:15
162:23 163:16 169:8
172:13 173:18 175:4
180:25 182:24 188:1
188:24 196:13 201:3
201:7,21 202:15
203:12 204:24 219:8
221:25 224:16 226:7
229:6,20 230:16
234:18 238:14 240:19
249:14 257:4 262:19
263:16,18 272:12
304:20 317:2 323:4
turned
30:13 188:13 204:15
317:21
turning
30:9 74:13 86:15
196:24 239:8 263:13
269:17 306:17 309:4
twice
214:22
two
11:18 15:14,16 25:4
43:20,20 47:15 58:22
59:5 61:14 94:1
104:15 115:18 123:18
123:18 124:9 128:24
145:16 159:9 194:11
194:12,21 195:2
197:21 198:13 203:2

203:4 208:5 217:13
218:1 223:11 253:4
284:15 285:15 286:10
286:11 289:9 293:21
302:6 309:1 322:2
326:3,5,7
txt
317:9 319:10,15 320:1
320:17,22,24 322:6
type
20:4 22:1 23:5 33:17
37:17,20,22 44:3 53:6
75:20 86:16,19,22
115:20 116:11 124:2
179:5
typed
30:11
types
53:9,12 152:12 203:14
268:7 319:25
typical
34:16 203:14 271:18
271:21 320:25 321:10
321:16
typically
86:8 137:10 207:9
typing
287:6 288:9
typo
159:3
typography
37:5
T.J
23:2
U
ultimately
71:10 81:20
unable
150:15,22 151:11
159:14 261:5
unauthorized
132:24 136:20 221:12
224:2 226:14 227:25
326:23
unavailability
259:24 261:1
unbinding

329:15
Unbound
58:25 59:8 60:16
uncomfortable
57:21
uncorrected
320:25
undergo
117:1 122:5
undergone
122:19
undergraduate
16:22,25 25:25
underlines
124:17,22
understand
10:5,8,14 29:17 30:16
37:3 50:22 59:4 70:3
75:9,12 97:10 137:17
211:2 234:16 252:24
281:1
understanding
12:2 32:12 40:5 41:13
42:8 72:14 76:3 77:7
90:9 103:12 108:8
109:24 128:2,19
129:2,11 171:11
178:19 206:1 211:12
212:6 213:18 228:19
230:10 231:6,22
233:3,8 234:4 235:20
236:1,19 240:16
245:12 268:13,18,25
269:11,14 309:19
320:20
understood
259:12 282:5
undertaken
241:3
unfair
100:16 106:3
unhappy
39:25
unincorporated
82:18
Unintelligible
117:3 125:21

unit
58:24 217:16 219:1
United
1:1 5:3 110:9,20
158:13 163:23 170:25
302:17
universities
99:6 102:24 104:19,19
105:17 213:20 230:6
231:2,17,18
university
99:2,13 100:14 102:8
102:16,17,19,23
103:5,16,21 104:5,13
105:9,11,12 106:7,18
222:25 224:7 240:4
unprotected
245:11
unsealing
329:15
unsuccessful
20:21
update
46:15 216:4,18 217:5,7
225:17
upgrading
27:15
upheld
228:23
uploaded
126:6 137:18 319:23
320:15
uploading
107:8
upside
114:21
upside-down
115:5
usable
277:20 278:4
use
30:16 36:17 43:6 46:20
50:10 70:11 89:12
97:16 98:3 108:17
118:8 120:24 121:17
125:3 139:13 141:10
161:18,19 163:1,14

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

378
169:22 170:10,23
173:6 177:18 191:22
191:24 193:16 199:1
199:4,10,20,23
200:12,21 205:5,13
206:3,6,24 207:5
210:8 219:14 232:9
232:23 239:16 245:8
250:7 259:6 263:18
266:15,18 268:5
269:9 270:5 271:19
271:21 273:6,17,21
274:9,12 275:5,17,20
275:22,24 276:8
277:1 283:11,13,20
284:12,21 285:4,14
285:19 286:3 287:10
288:5,8 289:20,23
291:5,17 292:7
293:12 294:3 303:22
308:20 315:7,18,25
316:8,19 318:21
319:3
useful
276:4
useless
246:20,22
user
60:22 61:6 95:3,11,13
96:1 134:2,7,11
136:11,22 140:5,8,11
140:21 141:5,10,17
141:24 148:9,13
163:13 174:2,17
224:11 236:5 239:21
274:18,21 293:3
324:22 325:11 327:20
328:3,10
users
62:25 88:7 110:6 114:1
135:3 225:15 230:23
232:16 270:5 275:4
292:6
uses
221:11 270:8,15
usually
35:8 118:7 142:8 172:3

277:23 283:24
utilize
129:21
utilizes
264:20
utmost
181:5
U.S
8:8 47:2 56:18 57:7,13
58:3,9 59:15,24 62:6
63:4,10,16 64:18,25
84:12,21 87:9,15
88:16,23 89:23 90:5
90:12 91:23 92:14
109:8 112:10 127:23
145:19 158:8 160:22
163:25
V
vague
24:22 29:14 30:22
31:16 32:2,9,20 33:25
35:19 38:24 39:5
40:23 48:15,22 51:10
51:21 52:7,15 55:10
55:18 58:5 59:17
60:24 61:19,24 62:8
62:17 63:6,12,18
64:21 65:3,16,21 66:1
66:6,11,16,23 67:5,13
67:23 68:4 70:16,24
71:13 72:12,20,24
73:5,22 75:21 76:5
79:24 80:11 81:4
82:2,7,20 84:14,22
86:18 87:1,5,11,17
88:12,18,25 89:13,19
89:24 90:7,14 92:15
93:3,15,21 94:15,20
95:6,15 96:3,8,20,25
97:6,12,19 98:1 99:4
100:6,20 101:25
102:10 103:7,14
104:9 106:9,15 107:5
107:10 108:1,25
110:3,13,19 111:8,14
111:23 112:6,14
113:2,10,17 114:6,23

115:16,23 116:13
117:2 118:4,23
120:21 122:8,21
123:5,22 124:1
125:13,20 126:8
127:5,15,24 128:4
129:18 130:2,10,16
130:21 131:18 132:19
133:6,14,20 134:5,13
134:21 135:10 136:2
136:8,19 137:5
139:11,22 140:6,14
140:24 141:8,15,20
142:2,17 146:18
150:2 152:6,15
153:13 154:7,20
155:24 156:24 157:5
160:7 162:6,18 163:6
164:10 165:5 166:10
167:24 170:18 171:5
172:25 173:22 174:20
177:7 178:6,16,24
179:7 181:11 182:4
182:12,20 184:2,15
185:17 187:19 188:18
190:10 194:25 195:11
196:3 197:4,17 198:8
199:18 200:15 201:2
201:18 202:10 203:8
203:17 204:3,10
205:9,18,24 206:8,19
207:1,7 208:3,22
209:17 210:5,15
211:25 212:18,25
213:8,17 215:15
218:24 219:16,21
220:23 223:3,17
224:4,12 225:13
226:4,23 227:6 228:5
228:11 230:12 231:8
231:23 232:2 233:5
234:6 235:23 236:8
239:12 240:13 241:9
241:16 242:8 244:19
245:7 248:7 250:12
250:19,25 252:13
253:12,22 254:8,14

254:20 255:20,25
258:4 260:13 261:11
262:7 263:2 265:1,8
265:14,20 266:1,23
267:4,11,22 268:4
270:4 271:13,23
272:9 273:9,23 275:8
276:2,13,20 277:4,16
278:7,15 279:1,8,18
280:7 281:6,13
283:22 284:14 285:6
286:17 287:13,21
288:7,22 289:6,22
290:9,21 291:6,20
292:11,22 294:4
295:1,10 296:2,7,12
296:23 297:4,17,25
298:6,13,22 299:7,24
300:7 301:18 302:24
303:14 308:4,15,24
310:12,25 311:10,15
311:20 312:2,20
313:5,11,17,23
314:12 315:11,21
316:3,11,22 317:18
318:1,10,25 319:5
320:3,19 321:2,23
322:10,20 323:21
324:3,10,16,25 325:8
325:14 326:25 327:16
327:23 328:6,12
vaguely
69:12
validation
126:2,11,16
Valley
145:11
value
169:3
vanilla
76:18
variation
24:17
variations
268:21
varied
40:16,17 193:7

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

379
varies
124:2 125:4
variety
258:6 283:23 312:23
various
165:12
vendors
36:17
venture
186:11
VERA
57:17 58:2,8 66:9 68:3
68:6
verify
247:4
version
6:15 7:3 38:16 59:1
127:7 172:20 237:22
248:4 259:25 273:12
284:19,25 291:12
297:3,5,9,11,15,20
307:16 308:1,2,13,21
309:7,16 310:14
311:9 317:5,9,14,16
318:6,22 319:16
versions
105:13 296:18
versus
6:18 7:6 8:7 208:18
229:9 237:24
vice
20:11 34:11,11,14 35:3
35:17,25 36:11 47:11
47:24 48:13
video
8:4,11,13 207:11
265:13 268:22 269:1
videographer
3:25 8:3,12,25 20:23
21:1 43:11,14,18,22
64:4,14 91:4,7 143:3
143:9 144:6 175:21
175:24 185:1,8 208:9
208:14 248:22 249:2
282:17,21,24 327:6,9
328:21
VIDEOTAPED

1:13 2:1
view
2:5 8:15 123:6 230:24
260:9 269:4 320:23
Viking
26:7
violating
7:11 242:4
violations
108:17
Virginia
3:14
vision
53:13 61:8 86:25
123:17 149:18,23
150:6,15 152:13
153:6,15,18 197:2
261:24 266:17 274:8
275:21
vision-impaired
274:10
visit
161:11
VisuAide
74:11
visual
23:24 78:5 123:16
153:25 200:24 269:24
281:25
visually
5:24 123:7,10 190:21
191:11 196:15 198:3
198:25 258:15,21,24
260:11 270:16 289:3
290:11 293:19 298:20
299:6 303:12 306:11
325:12
vis-a-vis
128:19
Vitae
4:12
voice
56:7 188:10 202:8
264:17
voices
200:8
voice-identify

8:16
void
329:17
voluntarily
105:10
voluntary
112:18,23 114:15
308:7 324:7
Volunteer
113:4
volunteers
113:16
vs
1:7
V-E-R-A
57:17
V-I-S-U-A-I-D-E
74:11

153:16
Washington
3:6
wasn't
24:24 186:9,10 243:12
243:13 261:17 299:10
waste
125:25
Watson
23:3,8,9 24:20
way
36:22 37:17 75:12
86:11 105:16 107:24
117:5 119:19 136:14
150:4 154:25 156:6
157:2 165:22 166:12
166:16,22 167:15
169:4 170:16 196:7
219:19 256:5 261:15
W
264:21 274:5 281:18
wafer
287:14 288:4,10,24
24:3
295:9 298:5 315:17
wafers
329:13
23:23
Wayback
wait
308:11,18 319:3
107:14 194:2 233:17
ways
233:17
36:18 105:2,4 127:19
waived
141:10,21 142:22
255:8 329:21
146:9,16,20 147:22
want
165:1 167:16 208:5
37:11 42:1,4,7 45:17
232:11 287:23 288:8
49:14 64:9 93:20,22
wealthy
100:9 103:24 108:3
110:9,21 161:2
118:20,21 121:1,13
web
138:14 144:25 151:3
83:23 84:2 87:21,25
166:25 176:9 179:14
88:1,7,15,23 89:10
201:3 215:21 217:7
94:13,21,22 95:4,13
220:10,12 243:10
95:18,19,19,22 96:1
247:4,12,25 257:23
119:6 125:18 126:7
258:17 260:24 262:21
128:23 130:7 135:9
269:13 282:8 293:4
137:18 139:20,23
294:15,24 295:12
140:1,2,2 141:1
301:3 302:21 303:19
143:16,17,18,19
305:16
144:22 146:17 161:11
wanted
171:4,14,18,19
31:9 39:25 148:16
173:13 174:11,18
215:17 243:3 286:9
175:6,15,15,16 176:4
wants

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

380
176:4,23 178:13
179:1,5 222:20 223:2
223:11,16,19 224:1
228:4 250:3 252:12
252:19 253:4,6,7,8,10
253:14,19,20,21,25
273:1 280:9 283:25
288:13,14,16 293:10
294:5,5,6 295:23,24
295:25 297:23 299:9
299:10 301:2 302:7
307:18 308:1,12,23
309:17 317:11,14
318:7,24 319:17,24
319:24 320:1,16,17
322:8 323:20,24
324:9,14,23 325:5,13
325:24 326:16,19,19
326:20,23 327:13,14
327:21 328:4,11
website
5:13
web-based
107:4
Welcome
162:25
went
22:24 43:25 102:7
weren't
106:1 125:24 172:10
278:21
West
2:4 3:18 8:14,23 13:24
14:25
Westlaw
6:15 229:12 237:16
Westlaw's
229:15
we'll
10:11 30:16 43:19
135:2
we're
15:22 21:6 41:20,23,24
79:1 90:17,19 94:1
114:13 115:2 155:25
156:2,2 157:25,25
158:1 161:13 166:16

167:25 171:23 179:18 witness
2:10,12 7:22 9:3,23
192:19 217:15,17
13:5,7,20 15:7,10
218:14 237:16 242:16
16:4,12 21:14 24:23
247:23 248:15 249:4
26:15 29:15 30:23
259:3 314:22
31:17 32:3,11,22
we've
33:15 34:1 36:17
34:10 75:14 101:12
38:4,11,14 39:1,7
126:12 142:3,22
40:15,24 42:9 43:16
161:4 165:23 166:13
43:21 44:17 48:16,23
167:4 186:20 196:5
49:8 50:2 51:4,12,23
199:8 268:13 282:7
52:9,17 54:6,19 55:11
whale
55:19 57:19 58:6,14
44:14,15,16,17,20
59:12,18 60:1,15,25
whereof
61:5,20 62:1,9,19,24
329:18
63:7,13,19,24 64:22
white
65:4,17,22 66:2,7,12
123:15,15
66:17,24 67:6,15,25
wholly
68:6 69:9,15 70:10,17
76:20
70:25 71:14,23 72:4
wide
72:14,21 73:1,7,23
37:15 86:10 199:1
74:11,18 75:22 76:6
widely
77:16,25 78:12 79:8
185:25 199:6 206:2
79:25 80:12 81:5
wider
82:3,8,22 84:6,15,24
76:19
85:8 86:19 87:2,6,12
Wilkins
87:18,24 88:13,20
1:25 2:6 9:1 241:5,7
89:2,8,14,20 90:1,9
329:2,24
90:16 92:17 93:4,16
Willie
93:22 94:16,21 95:8
279:22
95:17 96:5,9,21 97:2
Windows
97:8,13,20 98:2 99:5
58:21 59:3
99:17,23 100:7,21
Windows-based
101:2,12 102:1,12
284:9 294:2
103:8,15 104:10
Window-Eyes
106:11,16,25 107:6
270:22 284:6 291:5,7
107:12 108:2,13
291:13,17,25 292:10
109:1 110:5,15,20
292:19 293:18 294:2
111:9,15,24 112:8,16
295:22 315:3,7,18,25
113:4,11,19 114:7,24
wires
115:10,17,24 116:15
28:1,6
117:15 118:5,25
wish
121:25 122:9,22
95:8 302:14
123:6,23 124:2
wishes
125:14,23 126:10
95:11 163:7
127:6,16,25 128:5
withdraw
129:20 130:3,11,17
75:6

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

130:22 131:7,20
132:20 133:7,16,22
134:6,14,24 135:13
136:4,9,20 137:6
138:13,14 139:13,23
140:8,15,25 141:9,21
142:3,19 143:2,24
146:19 147:3 151:5
152:8,17 153:14
154:8,22 155:25
157:7 160:8,12 162:7
162:19 163:7 164:11
165:7 166:11 167:25
168:20 170:20 171:7
173:2,16,24 174:23
177:8,15,20 178:7,18
179:1,9,16,20,24
181:12 182:5,13,21
184:3,16 185:18
187:14,20 188:20
190:12 191:5,25
194:3 195:1,13 196:4
196:21 197:6,19
198:9 199:19 200:17
201:3,19 202:12
203:4,9,18 204:5,11
205:10 206:1,10,20
207:3,8 208:5,24
209:5,18 210:7,16,19
210:22 211:1,5 212:1
212:19 213:1,9,18
214:25 215:16,25
216:12 218:25 219:17
219:22 221:1,17,18
221:20 222:4,8 223:4
223:18 224:6,14
225:14,22 226:5,24
227:7 228:6,13,16
230:14 231:9 232:3
233:7,19 234:7 235:3
235:25 236:10 237:18
239:13 240:15 241:11
241:17 242:9,23,25
243:6,9,22 244:20
245:8 248:9 250:13
250:20 251:1,9,11,15
251:21 252:15 253:13

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

381
253:23 254:3,9,15,21
255:11,21 256:1
258:5 260:14 261:14
262:9 263:7 265:2,9
265:15,21 266:2,24
267:5,12,23 268:5
270:5 271:14,25
272:10 273:11,24
275:9 276:3,14,21
277:5,17 278:8,16
279:2,9,19 280:8
281:7,14 282:13,16
282:19 283:18,23
284:15 285:7 286:11
286:18 287:14,23
288:8,24 289:8,23
290:11 291:7,21
292:4,13,23 294:5
296:3,8,13,25 297:5
297:18 298:1,8,15,23
299:8 300:1,8 301:5,9
301:20 302:25 303:6
303:8,15,18 304:2,5
305:19,22,25 306:25
307:3,6 308:5,17
309:1 310:13 311:2
311:11,16,21 312:3
312:21 313:6,12,18
313:24 314:13 315:13
315:23 316:5,13,24
317:20 318:2 319:1,6
320:5,20 321:3,25
322:12,21 323:22
324:4,11,17 325:2,9
325:15 327:2,24
328:7,13,16,19
329:18
witness's
79:7 128:19
wondering
78:10 248:19
wooden
57:22
word
26:11 30:5,10 31:13,24
116:3 121:8 146:6
204:7,21 266:8

285:21 287:7,18,24
288:5,9,9,13 293:10
294:11 295:25 300:21
321:8,11
words
30:3 114:12 119:16,17
123:21 125:2 240:1
272:1 292:24,25
WordScan
37:25 38:4,17,21 39:4
39:15 58:16,17
work
24:25 25:11,25 35:13
38:21 43:25 69:2
99:8 104:14 126:18
129:12 135:3,13,16
136:13,13,22 137:11
137:25 141:1 147:12
154:2 165:2 167:16
171:18 172:3 183:20
189:24 218:5,7 219:1
231:1,5 241:6,13
248:4 262:17 271:10
272:6 283:14 302:7
311:6
worked
23:19 24:24 25:17,19
26:5,24 27:14 28:11
35:6 44:13 53:3
167:8 230:11 231:7
232:1 233:4 234:5
235:22 240:12
working
9:25 26:20 28:25 29:13
33:2 37:2 83:17
164:20 183:14 261:20
322:22
works
51:15 104:6 105:19
126:21 128:9 136:10
137:14,18 138:4
142:21 148:17 164:7
223:22 226:15 228:1
230:5 231:18 232:8,9
232:18,20 233:9
235:9 238:25 239:22
269:13,20 290:1

world
71:23 92:11
world's
145:2
worry
201:12
worth
299:17
wouldn't
82:22 92:7 125:23
147:17 217:21
Wow
290:1
wrapped
57:22
write
247:5,8
Writers
247:15,17 248:13
writing
155:17 266:22
written
220:18 243:6 246:4
249:20 255:23
wrong
24:5 69:4,10 91:16
193:23 238:5
wrote
35:5 45:14 185:14
191:1 196:18 224:20
247:7
WYNN
60:7,15,22 61:22 62:1
62:16 65:19
W3C
280:9
X
X
329:22
X-COM
245:22 246:19
Y
yeah
15:10 22:25 41:4 52:6
60:10 61:17 121:21
121:25 124:6,12,15

134:24 138:17 151:3
151:5 153:1 155:2
161:20 162:19 203:1
203:6 204:11 218:8
225:14 227:18 244:9
255:7,9 290:2 294:13
305:10
year
22:9,10,10 24:8 79:18
79:20 110:18 165:10
184:8 189:9,24
196:17 279:12 285:2
291:15
years
19:25 24:8 69:4 99:18
165:23 173:9 180:6
185:15 197:8 204:20
216:5 217:2,19 218:6
Yep
235:2
York
208:20
Z
zero
301:6 322:3
zeroed
321:21
ZoomText
271:4,5
$
$1,000
39:17
$10
162:5
$10,000
73:17
$200
306:15
$25
110:8 160:23
$300
162:9
$35
40:12
$40
217:22 218:20 254:24

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

382
10:40
64:5
10:43
64:15
10:45
247:9
100
306:15,16
10068
329:4,25
11
156:10 266:5 317:2
#
319:8,20
#10068
11:17
1:25
91:5
11:31
0
91:9
08210239
118
5:7
214:24 215:2,7
12
1
4:9 160:15 162:15
1
221:8 225:25 246:13
8:4 51:7 91:5 98:18
247:5,9 304:4 317:2
144:21 215:9 225:14
319:20
226:7,7,21 249:15
12th
250:9
3:20
1E
12:10
91:11
43:15
1:08
12:34
143:10
143:4
1:14-CV-00857-TSC...
121
1:7 8:9
158:14 163:24 210:9
1:43
13
175:22,25
162:23 240:20,23
1:53
143
185:3
4:5 5:12
10
15
52:12 155:7 229:11
163:16 168:8 192:12
238:12 242:5 286:3
192:20 196:18 234:18
314:22
234:19
10th
1500
238:7
54:14
10,000
16
114:9
169:8 216:8,12,15,16
10:06
17
43:12
158:13 163:23 171:2
10:12
214:13
43:15,22
255:11
$400
218:21 219:5 306:16
$5
55:14
$5,000
39:15 54:7
$50
41:3 110:18 160:23
$50,000
39:13

1700
3:5
179
5:14
18
172:14,15 326:15
1800
54:14
1800s
197:13
185
5:18
1850
9:12
19
173:18,21
190
5:22
1940
3:13
1960
301:11
1977
27:3
1980
16:17 17:8 18:3 301:11
1981
18:3 20:2 22:11,12
1982
33:11 34:11
1983
20:2
1987
36:1
1988
34:12
1989
33:11 36:1 39:22 47:9
47:12 49:3 53:4
54:22 186:5
1994
40:4
1995
47:9 69:23,24 70:22
1996
127:22
1999

252:19,24 253:3,10,19
253:24 254:3,4
259:25 260:3,25
261:2,6 264:24 265:6
265:12,18,24 266:21
267:9 268:3 283:8,21
284:22 296:19 297:20
297:24 298:4,12,19
299:4 300:24 301:13
301:15 302:18,20
303:11 305:23 306:5
306:10 307:17 308:3
308:13,22 309:7,12
309:15,22 310:10,14
310:19 311:8 312:7
312:14 313:1 315:1,8
315:19 316:9 317:5
317:16 318:6 319:11
319:15 320:15,18,22
322:8 324:7
2
2
91:8 144:24 160:4
180:25 185:2 222:1,4
222:13 225:14,15
244:1,5,6 245:17
256:18 306:7 326:11
2:01
185:10
2:30
208:10
2:38
208:15
20
175:4
200
216:17
2000
53:4 54:23 55:6,8 65:7
74:15,19 78:15,19,21
79:22 80:22
20006
3:6
2001
83:19
2002
83:10,17 108:22

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

383
217:10
2004
47:12
2007
185:23 196:22
2008
185:23 196:16,22
2009
99:20
2011
208:20
2012
125:8 208:21 214:7,13
217:10 221:8 229:11
2013
238:1,9,11 242:5
246:13 247:5,9
2014
78:21 79:16,22 125:8
238:7,12
2015
1:16 2:3 8:1,10 78:25
79:1 80:21 304:4
202
3:7
208
6:3,8
21
4:12
212
312:14 314:19
221
7:24
22314
3:14
227
7:25
229
6:15
23
216:19 217:8
233
70:2,6,22 71:19 72:1,9
72:18 73:3,20 74:8
237
7:3
241

7:9
249
7:13
25
219:9,25 220:6,19
304:24 305:5
2500
54:14
26
13:4 219:25 220:8,19
221:15 227:9 256:6
304:25 305:7
26(a)(2)(B)
256:17
28
69:23 216:22 217:2
28th
69:24 214:7
29
221:8
3
3
98:18 146:3 182:24
185:9 257:5 262:20
264:6 269:18 306:8
326:11
3,000
54:14
3:34
248:23
3:48
249:5
30
77:9 91:13 162:9,10
237:25
30th
238:9
304
7:20
34
7:20 304:3 305:13,20
305:23 321:6,15
35
40:21 41:2
372-9599
3:7

5:33
327:7
4
5:39
7:25 42:20 51:7,18
327:10
98:22 147:25 214:9
5:41
225:25 229:7,21
232:6 246:14 247:6,9 328:23,25
50
247:19 249:3 264:8
272:12 274:15 276:16 4:14,19 40:25 41:15,19
42:16,22 43:2 51:2
4,000
138:4 201:8
54:14
500
4:28
100:7 216:17
282:15
501(c)(3)
4:29
53:8
282:22
51
4:37
4:19 50:14,18 51:19
282:25
52:3
40
52
39:12 147:5
4:22 68:8,12,20
41
53A
4:14
5:3 69:13,18,19 70:7
413-3000
71:20 72:1 73:4,20
3:15
53B
415
5:5 69:14,18 71:3
3:22
54
445
5:8 98:8,11,18,22
6:20 229:10
55
4780
5:12 143:6,13,21 144:1
9:18
144:21,25 146:3
48
147:25 148:24 150:9
4:9 12:10,12,16,18
152:11 153:2,23
14:9
154:10 155:7 156:10
49
160:15 162:23 163:16
4:12 21:11,12 34:10
168:8 169:8 171:2
52:23 53:2 74:14
172:14 173:21 175:5
78:23 124:5
176:18,21 177:5
5
178:3,8,14,22 179:6
194:9,22 325:23
5
326:8,15
42:20 120:2,3,3 148:24
555
217:8 230:16 233:11
3:20 192:18 194:22
247:10,19 283:6
195:25
289:19 295:24 296:15
306:18,25 307:10,12 556
196:13,24
5,000
557
54:10,14
201:7,8
5,470,233
558
5:4 70:1
4

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM

Confidential Videotaped Deposition of James R. Fruchterman
Conducted on September 8, 2015

384
201:9,22
56
5:14 179:22 180:3,10
181:1 182:25
560
202:16,17
562
203:13
565
204:25
57
5:18 185:6,13,16 188:2
188:25
58
5:22 190:15,19,25
191:15 192:12 193:25
194:9,22 195:9,25
196:13 201:7 202:16
204:25
59
6:3 208:12 213:23
214:3,17 215:10
217:8 219:10 221:10
222:1,12 304:10,22
306:4
6
6
150:9 152:11 162:5
219:9 259:23 296:15
304:24 306:18,25
307:10,13
60
6:8 208:13 213:23
214:9,12 224:17
226:1,8 227:4 325:19
326:8,11
600
114:8
61
6:15 229:3,7 230:17
234:18 236:13
62
7:3 237:11,21 238:15
240:20,23
63
7:9 241:19,23 242:20
246:16 247:6,10

64
7:13 248:25 249:8
251:5 252:7 257:7
306:20 309:5 311:7
314:23 319:20 323:5
66
106:21 107:9,12,20,21
108:8 187:5
68
4:22
69
5:3,5

81
20:1 24:9,14
825
3:5
83
20:1
86
188:1
87
7:8 237:25
875-2477
3:22

7
7
153:2 214:4 215:9
238:14,16 304:24
323:4,16
7.1
120:13,14,14,15,16,17
700
191:18
703
3:15
755
7:8 237:24
77
25:23
78
25:7
79
25:8,23

9
9
4:4 52:3,12 154:10
222:2,14 309:4
310:18
9:21
2:4 8:1,11
9:34
20:24
9:37
21:2
90
111:16
90s
40:10
902
6:19 229:10
94104
3:21
95
8
113:12 121:12 188:25
8
262:10
1:16 2:3 7:24 8:1 51:18 97
52:3 153:23 285:18
155:1
8th
98
8:10
5:8 154:13
8:06
99
246:14 247:5
317:10 318:23
80
24:9,13,15 214:23
215:6
80s
29:19
801
2:4 8:14

CONTAINS CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION
PLANET DEPOS | 888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM