AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH ASSOCIATION, INC. et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 60

MOTION for Summary Judgment Filed by AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL RESEARCH ASSOCIATION, INC., AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION, INC., NATIONAL COUNCIL ON MEASUREMENT IN EDUCATION, INC. (Attachments: #1 Statement of Facts Points of Authority, #2 Statement of Facts Statement of Undisputed Facts, #3 Declaration Declaration of Jonathan Hudis, #4 Exhibit Ex. A, #5 Exhibit Ex. B, #6 Exhibit Ex. C, #7 Exhibit Ex. D, #8 Exhibit Ex. E, #9 Exhibit Ex. F, #10 Exhibit Ex. G, #11 Exhibit Ex. H, #12 Exhibit Ex. I, #13 Exhibit Ex. J, #14 Exhibit Ex. K, #15 Exhibit Ex. L, #16 Exhibit Ex. M, #17 Exhibit Ex. N, #18 Exhibit Ex. O, #19 Exhibit Ex. P, #20 Exhibit Ex. Q, #21 Exhibit Ex. R, #22 Exhibit Ex. S, #23 Exhibit Ex. T, #24 Exhibit Ex. U, #25 Exhibit Ex. V-1, #26 Exhibit Ex. V-2, #27 Exhibit Ex. W, #28 Exhibit Ex. X, #29 Exhibit Ex. Y, #30 Exhibit Ex. Z, #31 Exhibit Ex. AA, #32 Exhibit Ex. BB, #33 Exhibit Ex. CC, #34 Exhibit Ex. DD, #35 Exhibit Ex. EE, #36 Exhibit Ex. FF-1, #37 Exhibit Ex. FF-2, #38 Exhibit Ex. FF-3, #39 Exhibit Ex. FF-4, #40 Exhibit Ex. FF-5, #41 Exhibit Ex. FF-6, #42 Exhibit Ex. GG, #43 Exhibit Ex. HH, #44 Exhibit Ex. II, #45 Exhibit Ex. JJ, #46 Exhibit Ex. KK, #47 Exhibit Ex. LL, #48 Exhibit Ex. MM, #49 Declaration Declaration of Marianne Ernesto, #50 Exhibit Ex. NN, #51 Exhibit Ex. OO, #52 Exhibit Ex. PP, #53 Exhibit Ex. QQ, #54 Exhibit Ex. RR, #55 Exhibit Ex. SS, #56 Exhibit Ex. TT, #57 Exhibit Ex. UU, #58 Exhibit Ex. VV, #59 Exhibit Ex. WW, #60 Exhibit Ex. XX, #61 Exhibit Ex. YY, #62 Exhibit Ex. ZZ, #63 Exhibit Ex. AAA, #64 Exhibit Ex. BBB, #65 Exhibit Ex. CCC, #66 Exhibit Ex. DDD, #67 Exhibit Ex. EEE, #68 Exhibit Ex. FFF, #69 Exhibit Ex. GGG, #70 Exhibit Ex. HHH, #71 Exhibit Ex. III, #72 Exhibit Ex. JJJ, #73 Declaration Declaration of Lauress Wise, #74 Exhibit Ex. KKK, #75 Exhibit Ex. LLL, #76 Declaration Declaration of Wayne Camara, #77 Exhibit Ex. MMM, #78 Declaration Declaration of Felice Levine, #79 Exhibit Ex. NNN, #80 Exhibit Ex. OOO (Public Version), #81 Exhibit Ex. PPP, #82 Exhibit Ex. QQQ, #83 Exhibit Ex. RRR, #84 Exhibit Ex. SSS, #85 Exhibit Ex. TTT-1, #86 Exhibit Ex. TTT-2, #87 Exhibit Ex. UUU, #88 Declaration Declaration of Kurt Geisinger, #89 Declaration Declaration of Dianne Schneider, #90 Text of Proposed Order Proposed Order, #91 Certificate of Service Certificate of Service)(Hudis, Jonathan). Added MOTION for Permanent Injunction on 12/22/2015 (td).

EXHIBIT BB
Case No. 1:14-cv-00857-TSC-DAR

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 1

1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2
3

for the

4

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
____________________________
AMERICAN EDUCATIONAL
)

5

RESEARCH ASSOC., INC.,

)

6

et al.

)

7

Plaintiffs

8
9

)
)
)

v.

10

Civil Action No.:
1:14-cv-00857-TSC

)

11

PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,

12

Defendant.
)
____________________________)

)

13
14

San Francisco, California

15

Tuesday, December 2, 2014

16

Videotaped deposition of CHRISTOPHER BUTLER,

17

a witness herein, called for examination by counsel

18

for Plaintiffs in the above-entitled matter, the

19

witness having been by me first duly sworn, taken

20

at the offices of Harvey Siskind, LLP, Four

21

Embarcadero Center, 39th Floor, San Francisco,

22

California at 9:10 a.m., on Tuesday, December 2,

23

2014, and the proceedings being taken down by

24

Stenotype by CINDY TUGAW, RPR, CSR and transcribed

25

under her direction.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 2

1

APPEARANCES:

2
3

On behalf of the Plaintiffs:

4

JONATHAN HUDIS, ESQ.

5

OBLON, SPIVAK, McCLELLAND, MAIER &

6

NEUSTADT, LLP

7

1940 Duke Street

8

Alexandria, Virginia

9

[phone]

22314

10
11

On behalf of the Defendant:

12

KATHLEEN LU, ESQ.

13

Fenwick & West, LLP

14

555 California Street, 12th Floor

15

San Francisco, California

16

[phone]

94104

17
18

On behalf of the Witness

19

STEPHANIE D. AHMAD, ESQ.

20

Greenberg Traurig, LLP

21

Four Embarcadero Center, Suite 3000

22

San Francisco, California

23

[phone]

94111

24
25

ALSO PRESENT:

Sean McGrath, Video Operator

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 3

1

C O N T E N T S

2

THE WITNESS

3

CHRISTOPHER BUTLER

4

PAGE

Examination by Mr. Hudis

5

5
6

E X H I B I T S

7

EXHIBIT NO.

8

Exhibit 1

9
10

PAGE
Subpoena to Testify at a

7

Deposition in a Civil Action
Exhibit 2

Subpoena to Produce Documents,

15

11

Information, or Objects or to Permit

12

Inspection of Premises in a Civil Action

13

Exhibit 3

Internet Archive Bios

23

14

Exhibit 4

Internet Archive About IA

31

15

Exhibit 5

Terms of Use 10 March 2001

41

16

Exhibit 6

Web pages for AERA57

57

17

Exhibit 7

Item History for

63

18

gov.law.aera.standards.1999

19

Exhibit 8

30 pages of task logs

67

20

Exhibit 9

Log for task 315793300

112

21

Exhibit 10

Internet Archive Error

120

22

Exhibit 11

Mac Terminal screen capture page

124

23

Exhibit 12

12/19/2013 E-mail from Carl Malamud

132

24
25

to Christopher Butler with attachments
---o0o---

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 4

1

VIDEO OPERATOR:

Good morning.

We're on

2

the video record, ladies and gentlemen, at 9:10

3

a.m.

4

Reporting in Washington, DC.

5

[phone].

I am Sean McGrath from Alderson Court
The phone number is

6

This is a matter pending before the United

7

States District Court for the District of Columbia,

8

in the case captioned, American Educational

9

Research Association, Incorporated, et al., versus

10

Public.Resource.Org, Inc., Case No.

11

1:14-cv-00857-TSC.

12

This is the beginning of disk 1, volume 1

13

of the deposition of Chris Butler on December 2nd,

14

2014.

15

San Francisco, California.

16

of the plaintiffs.

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

We're located at Four Embarcadero Center,
This is taken on behalf

Counsel, would you please identify
yourselves, starting with the questioning attorney.
MR. HUDIS:

Jonathan Hudis, representing

plaintiffs.
MS.LU:

Kathleen Lu, Fenwick & West, for

defendant Public Resource.
MS. AHMAD:

Stephanie Ahmad, Greenberg

Traurig, for non-party Internet Archive.
VIDEO OPERATOR:

Will the court reporter

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 5

1

please swear in the witness and then you can

2

proceed.

3

CHRISTOPHER BUTLER,

4

being first duly affirmed by the Certified

5

Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth, the whole

6

truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as

7

follows:

8

EXAMINATION BY MR. HUDIS

9
10
11
12

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Sir, if I could have your full name and

address for the record.
A.

Christopher Scott Butler.

And my address

13

is 152 Caine Avenue, Caine is spelled C-a-i-n-e, in

14

San Francisco, California 94112.

15

Q.

Mr. Butler, have you been deposed before?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

In what kinds of matters?

18

A.

In matters relating to archived records of

19

websites that Internet Archive has preserved and

20

maintained on its site.

21

party.

22
23

Q.

I was deposed as a third

And how many such times have you been

deposed in that capacity?

24

A.

If I remember correctly, it's five times.

25

Q.

Other than those five times being deposed

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 6

1

in the nature of what you just described, have you

2

been deposed at all in any other cases?

3

A.

Yes, yes.

I've been deposed in the case

4

Davydiuk, D-a-v-y-d-i-u-k, versus Internet Archive

5

and Internet Archive Canada relating to a copyright

6

infringement case against Internet Archive.

7
8

Q.

Did that relate to the posting of certain

materials on Internet Archive's website?

9

A.

It did.

10

Q.

Have you told me all the types of matters

11

in which you've been deposed before?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

So altogether about six times?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

Since you've been deposed before,

16

Mr. Butler, I'll make my rules of the road brief.

17

Do you understand that if any question I

18

pose to you is unclear to you or you didn't hear

19

it, you can ask me to repeat or rephrase it?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Do you understand that all of your answers

22

to my questions have to be verbal?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Do you understand that if you would like

25

to take a break during the deposition, you may do

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 7

1

so?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

The only exception is if I have a question

4

pending, you must answer the question before you

5

take the break or speak with your attorney.

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Is there any reason, such as you're taking

8

medication, illness, any other reason why you can't

9

testify completely, accurately and truthfully

10
11

today?
A.

No.

12

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 marked for

13

identification.)

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

Q.

Mr. Butler, I will now show you what's

16

been marked as Exhibit 1, and it is a subpoena to

17

testify at a deposition.

18

Have you seen this subpoena before?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

When for the first time did you see the

21
22
23
24
25

subpoena in front of you?
A.

I saw the subpoena when it was served to

Internet Archive in late October.
Q.

If you could turn to the fourth and fifth

pages, there is a list of deposition topics.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 8

1

What, if anything, did you do to prepare

2

to testify on the topics listed on the fourth and

3

fifth pages of the deposition subpoena of

4

Exhibit 1?

5

MS. LU:

Just to be clear for the record,

6

since the pages aren't numbered, we're talking

7

about the page starting with Exhibit A?

8

MR. HUDIS:

9

Exhibit 1, correct.

10

Exhibit A to deposition

THE WITNESS:

Thank you.
To prepare for the

11

deposition, I, upon receipt of the subpoena,

12

immediately identified and spoke with the staff who

13

may have had communication with Public Resource or

14

the standard organizations.

15

delete any of their e-mail and to search for

16

strings relating to these organizations and the

17

standards document specified and to alert me if

18

they found any matches for -- for those strings.

19
20

I also spoke with my attorneys at
Greenberg Traurig.

21
22
23

I asked them to not

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Other than speaking with your attorneys,

who did you speak with at Internet Archive?

24

A.

I spoke with Brewster Kahle,

25

Q.

Spell his last name.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 9

1

A.

B-r-e-w-s-t-e-r, K-a-h-l-e.

2

Q.

And who is he?

3

A.

He's a founder of Internet Archive.

4

Q.

And what was the nature of that

5
6

discussion?
A.

It was to alert him of the subpoena, and

7

also the scope of the subpoena, and to ask him to

8

search his e-mail.

9

Q.

Did he search his e-mail?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

What did he find?

12

A.

He did not find any correspondence with

13
14

these organizations relating to the standards.
Q.

When you say the organizations, there's

15

three plaintiffs in this lawsuit.

16

just so we have a working definition, I'll say

17

their full names, and then I will say their

18

acronyms.

19

And I'll say,

So the first plaintiff is American

20

Educational Research Association, Inc., they're

21

known as AERA; the American Psychological

22

Association, Inc., they're known as APA; and the

23

National Council on Measurement in Education, Inc.,

24

and they're known as NCME.

25

Do we understand each other?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 10

1

A.

That's right.

2

Q.

So after speaking with Mr. Kahle, he did

3

not find any correspondence exchanged with any of

4

AERA, APA or NCME?

5

A.

Correct.

6

Q.

Did he find any correspondence exchanged

7

with Public.Resource.Org, Inc., which we will refer

8

to as Public Resource?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

What did he find?

11

A.

He found e-mails between himself and Carl

12
13
14

Malamud.
Q.

All right.

Have those e-mails been

produced to us?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

Those e-mails did not mention and did not

18
19

And why is that?

have any relation to the 1999 standards.
Q.

Okay.

So we understand the 1999

20

standards, I actually have the book with me, and

21

I'll read the title into the record.

22

Standards for Educational and Psychological

23

Testing, bearing a copyright of 1999.

24
25

It's the

Do you understand, Mr. Butler, that we
will refer to that book as the 1999 standards

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 11

1
2

during this deposition?
A.

3
4

MS. LU:

Are we entering that as an

exhibit?

5
6

Yes, I do.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

No, no.

So all the e-mails that Mr. Kahle

7

exchanged with Mr. Malamud did not mention the

8

1999 standards?

9

A.

Correct.

10

Q.

Did they mention any of the plaintiffs in

11

this lawsuit?

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

Do you remember what those e-mails had to

14

do with?

15

MS. LU:

16

THE WITNESS:

Objection, relevance.
There were many e-mails

17

relating to -- to a broad number of topics.

18

don't remember any specific offhand.

19
20

I

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Did any of those e-mails, to the best of

21

your recollection, have to do generally with

22

uploading by Public Resource standards or codes to

23

Internet Archive's website?

24

MS. AHMAD:

25

MS. LU:

Objection --

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 12

1

I'm sorry.

2
3

MS. AHMAD:

of the deposition topics.

4
5

THE WITNESS:

No, we did not find any

e-mails that related to the uploading of standards.

6
7

Objection, outside the scope

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Did you speak to anyone else, Mr. Butler,

8

to prepare for this deposition other than Mr. Kahle

9

or your counsel?

10

MS. LU:

11

testimony.

12
13
14
15
16

Objection, misstates prior

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Okay.

Did you speak to anyone else to prepare

for your deposition today?
A.

I spoke with Alexis Rossi who's our

director of collections.

17

Q.

And how do you spell Rossi?

18

A.

R-o-s-s-i.

19

Q.

And what was the nature of that

20
21
22

conversation or conversations?
A.

I asked her to search her e-mail account

for any communication responsive to the subpoena.

23

Q.

Did she find any?

24

A.

No.

25

Q.

Did you speak with anyone else to prepare

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 13

1

for this deposition?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

So, other than your counsel, the total

4

number of people that you spoke with to prepare for

5

your deposition were Mr. Kahle and Ms. Rossi?

6

A.

Correct.

7

Q.

To prepare for your deposition, did you

8

speak with anyone at Public Resource?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

To prepare for you deposition, did you

11

speak with anyone who is part of Public Resource's

12

legal team?

13
14

A.

Law firms?

We spoke with Corynne McSherry from the

Electronic Frontier Foundation to --

15

Q.

And what was -- all right.

16

A.

And alerted her of the fact that we had

17
18
19

received the subpoena.
Q.

And did you discuss anything else with

Ms. McSherry?

20

MS. LU:

21

MS. AHMAD:

22

I'm going to -I want to object on the basis

of privilege.

23

MR. HUDIS:

24

MS. LU:

25

Go ahead.

Privilege between whom?

If I understand this correctly,

and I think you probably know this better than I

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 14

1

do, I believe that there -- the communication

2

between Mr. Butler and Corynne McSherry is the

3

subject of privilege.

4
5

MR. HUDIS:

MS. LU:

7

MS. AHMAD:

11

I think it's attorney-client.
It's attorney-client

privileged.

9
10

How is it --

how is it privileged?

6

8

On what grounds?

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So you're saying Corynne McSherry and EFF

are Internet Archive's attorneys?

12

A.

That's correct.

13

Q.

For what purpose?

Because you're being

14

represented today, and for the purposes of the

15

subpoena, by Greenberg Traurig, so --

16

MS. LU:

I think that what EFF has

17

represented Internet Archive on itself is a subject

18

of privilege unless it's a public matter, and I

19

know there are some public matters.

20

know off the top of my head what they are.

21

MS. AHMAD:

Right.

But I don't

So Greenberg Traurig

22

is representing Internet Archive for the purpose of

23

the subpoena, but prior to that, Internet Archive

24

was represented by -- or still are, but the

25

communications between them are privileged.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 15

1

MS. LU:

My understanding is that EFF has

2

represented Internet Archive on occasion through

3

the years, though I don't know the specifics of

4

which matters, and I don't know which matters are

5

public.

6

MR. HUDIS:

Okay.

So let's confine

7

ourselves to your preparation for this deposition

8

and the deposition subpoena.

9

Q.

Other than alerting Ms. McSherry about the

10

fact that Internet Archive received plaintiffs'

11

subpoena, did you have any other discussions with

12

Ms. McSherry to prepare for this deposition?

13

A.

No.

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 marked for

16

identification.)

17

MR. HUDIS:

Mark this one.

Just for the record, the

18

deposition subpoena has been marked already as

19

Exhibit 1, and the document subpoena addressed to

20

Internet Archive has just been marked as Exhibit 2.

21

Q.

Mr. Butler, I now show you what's been

22

marked as deposition Exhibit 2 and ask if you've

23

seen this document before.

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

When for the first time did you see the

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 16

1
2
3
4

document subpoena of Exhibit 2?
A.

When it was served to Internet Archive in

late October.
Q.

What, if anything, did you do to assist

5

Internet Archive in complying with the document

6

subpoena as to the categories of materials listed

7

on the fifth and sixth pages of the subpoena?

8
9

And so we're clear, for the record, that
would be the fifth and sixth pages of the subpoena

10

which is -- and the document demand starts on the

11

second page of Exhibit A to Exhibit 2.

12

So I'll repeat the question, Mr. Butler.

13

What, if anything, did you do to assist

14

Internet Archive in complying with the document

15

subpoena?

16
17

A.

I asked Mr. Kahle and Ms. Rossi to search

their e-mail accounts, as I mentioned.

18

Q.

Uh-huh.

19

A.

I searched my own e-mail account.

I

20

searched our general incoming e-mail account,

21

[e-mail].

22

account that's used to correspond with -- with

23

folks who have sent e-mails to [e-mail] to

24

which e-mails may be passed along called

25

[e-mail].

And I also searched an e-mail

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 17

1

I also searched physical files when we

2

have all of our physical records relating to

3

take-down requests.

4
5

Q.
time.

6
7

Let's take your search areas one at a

In complying with the subpoena, did you
find anything in your own e-mail store?

8

A.

Yes, I did.

9

Q.

And what did you find?

10

A.

I found an e-mail from Carl Malamud

11

relating to the 1999 standards.

12

Q.

Was this just one e-mail or many e-mails?

13

A.

It was one e-mail.

14

Q.

Do you remember the nature of that e-mail?

15

A.

It -- it addressed the 1999 standards.

16
17

I

don't recall the exact content of the e-mail.
Q.

And in searching the e-mail box

18

[e-mail], did you find any responsive

19

documents?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

When you searched the mailbox

22

[e-mail], did you find any documents?

23

A.

No.

24

Q.

When you searched your physical files, did

25

you find any documents?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 18

1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Besides these e-mails boxes and your

3

physical files, did you conduct any other searches

4

to comply with the document subpoena?

5

A.

No.

6

Q.

Do you remember what documents were

7
8
9

collected for production?
A.

Yes, the -- the e-mail that I had received

from Carl Malamud --

10

Q.

Uh-huh.

11

A.

-- found in my own e-mail account.

12

Q.

Uh-huh.

13

A.

We also supplied documents from our site,

14

archive.org.

15

Q.

Uh-huh.

16

A.

One document was called the item history

17

for the 1999 standards.

18

Q.

Uh-huh.

19

A.

It lists all of the technical tasks

20

submitted and logged for the item.

21

submitted detailed technical logs for each

22

individual task.

23
24
25

Q.

Uh-huh.

So that was -- so that was also

part of your search?
A.

And we also

You searched for these logs?

That's correct.

Yes.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 19

1

Q.

What else did you search for?

2

A.

We also searched for the number of -- for

3

our record of downloads for the item.

4

Q.

And what do you mean by "downloads"?

5

A.

Downloads in the context of our site,

6

meaning a count of the number of unique

7

IP addresses -- allow me to start over.

8
9

A count of the number of accesses of the
item's pages by an IP address where multiple

10

accesses from the same IP address in a day as

11

defined by UTC time are counted as only one

12

download.

13
14

Q.

When you say "IP address," that's Internet

protocol address?

15

A.

Correct.

16

Q.

And what do you mean by "access"?

17

A.

I mean that there was an HTTP request for

18

the -- for one of the item's pages that was

19

fulfilled by archive.org.

20
21
22

Q.

So I have to ask this again, Mr. Butler,

because I do not want to put words in your mouth.
When you say you have a count of the

23

number of downloads, if you were explaining that to

24

me who has much less knowledge of Internet parlance

25

than you ever do, what does that mean?

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that count of downloads mean?

2

A.

The count of downloads means --

3

MS. LU:

4

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, argumentative.
Okay.

5

Q.

You may answer.

6

A.

As I understand it, the count of downloads

7

means any time that a computer with a unique

8

IP address or a server or any -- it could be an

9

automated program, it could be a crawler from

10

Google, and we actually understand that a great

11

many of the hits that we record are very likely

12

from automated programs, not from individuals.

13

So it would -- it would count requests

14

submitted from those IP addresses that were then

15

served by Internet Archive where we returned the --

16

the file information that they requested in a given

17

URL.

18

individual requests that were fulfilled from

19

individuals using computers as well.

And it would also count individual accesses,

20

We don't have a way to determine

21

whether -- which -- we don't have a way to

22

determine what percentage of the download count

23

that we obtained for this item would have been

24

submitted by an automated program or an individual.

25

Q.

In the context of download, does that mean

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call up a web page to view or to take material on a

2

web page and copy it onto another computer?

3

A.

It could be either one.

So there are

4

texts files that might be displayed in a browser,

5

PDF files that might be displayed in a browser but

6

are not necessarily downloaded by the browser to

7

the default folder on the local machine.

8
9
10

Q.

So your download count does not

distinguish between a mere view versus a copying of
material onto another computer?

11

MS. LU:

12

MR. HUDIS:

13
14

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

Do you understand the question?

I can

rephrase if you wish.

15

A.

If you would, please.

16

Q.

Sure.

So the download count, does it

17

distinguish between the merely viewing a web page

18

versus taking the content on the web page and

19

count -- and copying it to another computer?

20

MS. LU:

21

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

22

Q.

Do you understand the question?

23

A.

No, I'm not certain there -- there may be

24
25

browser cache or -Q.

Uh-huh.

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December 2, 2014
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1

A.

-- recording of a file for temporary

2

purposes versus downloading of a file to someone's

3

hard drive for -- for use until it's actively

4

deleted.

5

Q.

So you have no way of determining whether

6

it's a cache copy or taking a file from one place

7

to another copy?

8

"download."

9

MS. LU:

10
11
12

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Right, right.

So please distinguish for me the follow --

what terms you would use for the following things.

13
14

I'm purposely not using the term

I see something on a website and all I
want to do is see it.

What do you call that?

15

A.

Viewing a page.

16

Q.

Viewing.

17

Okay.

I see something on a website and I want to

18

make a copy of it from where I see it on the

19

website to the hard drive on my computer.

20

you call that?

21

MS. LU:

22

What do

MR. HUDIS:

23

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

I see a file located on a web page and I

24

want to make a copy of it and put it on my hard

25

drive.

What do you call that?

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December 2, 2014
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1

MS. LU:

2

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

3

Q.

You may answer.

4

A.

So as I understand, the term "download"

5

can be used the multiple ways.

6

Q.

Right.

7

A.

And so in -- in some user's mind, the

8

process you described could be defined as

9

downloading.

10

Q.

Uh-huh.

11

A.

However, our -- our recorded number which

12

we formally refer to as a download count does not

13

distinguish between viewing and downloading in this

14

instance for specific file -- for certain file

15

types.

16

MR. HUDIS:

17

VIDEO OPERATOR:

18

Off the record.
Just a second.

The time

is 9:37 a.m., and we are off the record.

19

(Discussion off the record.)

20

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 marked for

21

identification.)

22

VIDEO OPERATOR:

23

and we are on the record.

24
25

The time is 9:39 a.m.,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, have you described for me all

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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of the ways that Internet Archive searched and

2

collected documents to comply with the document

3

subpoena on Exhibit 2?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Mr. Butler, I now show you what has been

6

marked as deposition Exhibit 3.

7
8

Do you recognize at the bottom of the page
your own line biography?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And it says here you have twin degrees in

11

Environmental Science and Film Studies.

12

A.

That's correct.

13

Q.

Are those Bachelor's or Master's degrees?

14

A.

Bachelor's degrees.

15

Q.

What's the highest level of your

16

education?

17

A.

Bachelor's degree.

18

Q.

In these two -- in these two subject

19

matters on your bio?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

When did you receive these degrees?

22

A.

2002.

23

Q.

And did you have a double major?

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

Did you have a minor?

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Did you have a concentration while in

3

school?

4

A.

5
6
7

Within Environmental Science, I had a

concentration in Social Sciences.
Q.

Do you have any other degrees or

certificates from formal study?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

What, if any, background do you have in

10

computer programming, either by education or work

11

history?

12

A.

I have none via formal education.

Through

13

my work at Internet Archive, I have worked around

14

programmers and developers.

15

Q.

What do you mean by "work around"?

16

A.

I've worked as part of the Internet

17

Archive team in the same office space with

18

programmers and developers.

19

them on various questions of user support and

20

issues of taking material down when appropriate.

21
22

Q.

I have worked with

When you say "taking down," you mean from

Internet Archive's website?

23

A.

Correct.

24

Q.

Have you done any computer programming

25

yourself?

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Have you taken any courses whatsoever on

3

computer programming?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Have you taken -- scratch the question.

6
7
8
9

Have you received informal training from
anyone at Internet Archive in computer programming?
A.

I've received informal explanations from

time to time, various types of codes, mostly

10

related to HTML, or JavaScript, a composition of

11

web pages.

12

instruction about submitting a query from a command

13

line interface.

14
15

I've also received some informal

MR. HUDIS:

Could you repeat his answer.

Submitting a query from --

16

(Record read by Reporter.)

17

MR. HUDIS:

18

Q.

So these informal explanations, would that

19

qualify you to program in either HTML, Java or web

20

page composition?

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

Now, when you say submitting a query to a

23
24
25

command line interface, where do you do that?
A.

I -- in these instances, I did that from

the Mac Terminal application.

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

Q.

And that's at Internet Archive?

2

A.

That's on a Mac computer located at

3
4
5

Internet Archive.
Q.

And it's hooked into Internet Archive's

computer systems?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And do you know what software is used to

8

submit that query command?

9

MS. LU:

10
11

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

How do you submit a query command line?

12

MS. LU:

13

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

14

Q.

You may answer.

15

A.

The command was dictated to me by -- by

16

the engineer.

17

MS. LU:

18

MR. HUDIS:

And objection also, relevance.

19

Q.

An Internet Archive engineer?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

Did you use -- did you get such dictation

22

to run the searches to comply with plaintiffs'

23

document subpoena?

24
25

A.

Yes, in order to search for our records of

the download count, one of the Internet Archive

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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engineers dictated the query to me so I could

2

search for it as he sat next to me.

3

Q.

Who was the engineer?

4

A.

His name was Ralph Muehlen.

5

Q.

Spell his last name.

6

A.

M-u-e-h-l-e-n.

7

Q.

And do you -- when you were entering this

8

command into the Mac Terminal, do you know what

9

software you were using?

10

A.

I was using a Mac operating system.

11

Q.

Any particular software on the Mac

12
13

operating system?
A.

Within the Mac operating system, I was

14

using the application Terminal.

15

name of the application.

16

Q.

Terminal is the

And so with Terminal, in this instance,

17

dictated by Mr. Muehlen, you entered in a command

18

and it gave you back information?

19

A.

That's correct.

20

Q.

Mr. Butler, when did you first become

21

employed by Internet Archive?

22

A.

In February of 2009.

23

Q.

What was your position then?

24

A.

Office manager.

25

Q.

Is that the position you still hold today?

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December 2, 2014
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1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

What are your duties and responsibilities

3

at Internet Archive as an office manager?

4

A.

Some of them are clerical and relate to

5

office functions and managing our team of

6

administrative assistants.

7

Q.

To do what?

8

A.

To -- to perform reception duties,

9
10

inventory duties, purchasing duties, office
maintenance duties.

11
12

Q.

What other responsibilities do you have as

office manager at Internet Archive?

13

A.

I am primary point of contact for

14

take-down requests and requests for information

15

from law enforcement and attorneys.

16

Q.

And when you say you're the point of

17

contact for take-down requests, is that a request

18

to take down material from Internet Archive's

19

website?

20

A.

That's correct.

21

Q.

What do you do?

22

A.

I receive the take-down request, review

23

it.

24

something that should be taken down, I will process

25

that and take down the material.

If it meets our basic criteria for -- for

And if -- and

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follow up with any necessary communication

2

thereafter.

3
4

Q.

And so if a take-down request meets

certain criteria, what criteria would that be?

5

MS. LU:

6

MR. HUDIS:

Objection as to relevance.

7

Q.

You may answer.

8

A.

Sure.

9

I hadn't understood that the scope

of the subpoena would include this information.

10

but there can be take-down requests on -- on

11

various grounds, so the criteria would be specific

12

to -- to sometimes even the particular case, but

13

the most basic example is a complaint of -- of

14

copyright infringement brought to our attention on

15

the site.

16

And we would ask for a take-down notice

17

with the standard information requested as outlined

18

in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

19

meets that criteria, we will typically take down

20

the item, notify both the uploading party and the

21

requesting party.

22
23

Q.

And if it

And what about your being the point of

contact for information requests from attorneys?

24

MS. LU:

25

MR. HUDIS:

Objection as to relevance.

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December 2, 2014
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1

Q.

You may answer.

2

A.

The most common example of that is an

3

attorney who is interested in using archived

4

material from our web archive in one of their cases

5

and would like to have those records authenticated

6

by Internet Archive.

7

Q.

And as point of contact, you were also

8

part of Internet Archive's compliance with document

9

subpoenas such as the one we served on Internet

10

Archive?

11

A.

That's correct.

12

Q.

Have you told me all of your

13

responsibilities as office manager for Internet

14

Archive?

15

A.

Yes.

16

MR. HUDIS:

17

VIDEO OPERATOR:

18

Off the record.
The time is 9:51 a.m.,

and we are off the record.

19

(Discussion off the record.)

20

VIDEO OPERATOR:

21

The time is 9:52 a.m.,

and we are on the record.

22

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 marked for

23

identification.)

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Q.

Mr. Butler, what is the Internet Archive?

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December 2, 2014
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A.

Internet Archive is a nonprofit

2

organization.

3

digital library online at our website, archive.org.

4

We preserve many types of media and make much of

5

that media available in digital format via our

6

website, archive.org, and also openlibrary.org.

7

Q.

We are attempting to maintain a

Mr. Butler, do you recognize what I now

8

have marked as deposition Exhibit 4 as a portion of

9

Internet Archive's website?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

And it's the About page?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

And the first paragraph up at the top

14

right beneath "About the Internet Archive," it

15

says, "The Internet Archive is a 501(c) non-profit

16

that was founded to build an Internet library.

17

purposes include offering permanent access for

18

researchers, historians, scholars, people with

19

disabilities, and the general public to historical

20

collections that exist in digital format.

21

Do you see that?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Is that an accurate description of

24
25

Internet Archive's mission and business?
A.

Yes.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Its

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December 2, 2014
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1

Q.

And it says below that, in the end of the

2

second paragraph, "the Internet Archive includes

3

text, audio, moving pictures" -- "moving images,

4

and software as well as archived web pages in our

5

collections."

6

Do you see that?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

And that's a part of the business of

9

Internet Archive?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

All right.

12

of Exhibit 4, please.

13

If you would go to Page 5 of 5

exhibit.

14
15

It's the last page of the

Do you see the descriptive text under
where it says, "Storage"?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And it says, "Storing the Archive's

18

collections involves parsing, indexing, and

19

physically encoding the data.

20

collections growing at exponential rates, this task

21

poses an ongoing challenge."

22
23

With the Internet

Is this part of the business of Internet
Archive storage as it's described here?

24

A.

Yes.

25

Q.

And then immediately below that, there is

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a descriptive text under the title, "Preservation,"

2

do you see that?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

And it says there, "Preservation is the

5

ongoing test of permanently protecting stored

6

resources from damage or destruction.

7

issues are guarding against the consequences of

8

accidents and data degradation and maintaining the

9

accessibility of data as formats become obsolete."

10
11

The main

Is that part of the mission and business
of Internet Archive?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Mr. Butler, what is an Internet library?

14

A.

From our standpoint, as I understand

15

Internet library, it would be an organization that

16

offers library services, including access to -- to

17

the types of resources on Internet Archive texts,

18

movies, audio, software, information and artwork

19

and literature and scientific data.

20

available for the public benefit.

21
22
23
24
25

Q.

It makes it

Have you completely described what you

believe to be an Internet library?
A.

That's -- that's my definition in a

nutshell.
Q.

At the Internet Archive, what is a

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2

collection?
A.

A collection is roughly defined as a set

3

of posted items.

4

page beginning with archive.org/details and ending

5

in an identifier.

6

type such as text, movie, audio.

7

could be uploaded to that page.

8

assigned a title.

9

submitted by the uploader of the item.

An item would be defined as a

It would be assigned a media
Multiple files
It would be

And perhaps other metadata

10

A collection would be a list of items that

11

is associated with a separate landing page, its own

12

summary page where a visitor could -- can see

13

summary information about that list of items.

14

often organized around a theme.

15

It's

Some of the functions of a collection

16

include being able to search within just that list

17

of items, being able to sort those items, for

18

example, sorting them by title, alphabetically or

19

by author.

20

A collection is generally set up for any

21

archive.com user who contacts Internet Archive.

22

And generally we ask that they have uploaded

23

50 items to the site already that we can then form

24

into a collection and assign a collection page.

25

Q.

Have you described the entirety of what

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you believe is a collection?

2

MS. LU:

3

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, argumentative.

4

Q.

Did you leave anything out?

5

A.

I don't think of anything offhand.

6

Q.

How does Internet Archive build an

7
8
9
10

Internet library?
A.

Through multiple ways.

Our web archive is

collected both by Internet Archive and by outside
organizations that donate data to Internet Archive.

11

Q.

Let's take that separately.

12

A.

Okay.

13

Q.

What part of building Internet Archive's

14
15
16
17
18
19

library is done by Internet Archive itself?
A.

Much of the web archive is -- is crawled

and collected by Internet Archive directly.
Q.

So that we have a good record, what do you

mean by "crawled and collected"?
A.

I mean that automated programs operated by

20

Internet Archive visit web pages and store web

21

files that are transmitted to Internet Archive by

22

the web servers that they visit.

23

is then processed in such a way that it's rendered

24

searchable and browseable by visitors to the

25

website.

That information

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1

Q.

And the searchable and browseable

2

functions, that's done by Internet Archive's web

3

engineers?

4

A.

Correct.

5

Q.

And I believe the other way you said that

6

Internet Archive builds Internet library is by

7

donations of content by outside organizations?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

How does that work?

10

A.

So in the instance of the web archive

11

organizations, the biggest one of which is Alexa

12

Internet, who regularly perform web crawling, would

13

donate bulk data of historical web files to

14

Internet Archive to be incorporated into the

15

Wayback Machine.

16
17

Q.

donate content to the Internet Archive?

18
19

MS. LU:

22
23

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

20
21

And are there other organizations that

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Are there any other organizations that

donate content to the Internet Archive?
A.

Yes.

So private individuals and

24

institutions may establish a user account with

25

archive.org and post material in the movies, texts,

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2

audio and software collections.
Q.

How many individuals or organizations have

3

established user accounts for uploading purposes to

4

Internet Archive?

5

of thousands?

6
7

A.

At a minimum, thousands, perhaps tens of

thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands.

8
9

Tens, hundreds, thousands, tens

MS. LU:

I'll object that this is outside

the scope of the deposition topics.

10

MR. HUDIS:

I would disagree, Counsel.

11

Q.

12

answer?

13

A.

I am.

14

Q.

Have you described all the ways that

You may go.

Are you finished with your

15

Internet Archive builds its collections or builds

16

its libraries, to be correct?

17
18

A.

Internet Archive may also digitize text

materials or other materials.

19

Q.

Is this printed text materials?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

You may go on.

22

A.

Yes.

23
24
25

Typically, those are supplied by

libraries and state agencies.
Q.

So the three ways that Internet Archive

can build a library is Internet Archive's own

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crawling and archiving, donations by outside

2

organizations, and digitization of text materials

3

donated by libraries and state agencies, correct?

4
5

MS. LU:

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

6

MR. HUDIS:

I disagree.

7

Q.

Go on.

8

A.

I would also add that private individuals

9
10
11
12
13

You may answer.

can digitize materials themselves and upload them
to our service.
Q.

Have you told me all the different ways

that Internet Archive can build its libraries?
A.

Again, I think that's -- that's a fair

14

nutshell description.

15

specific to add.

16
17

Q.

So we have some definitions of terms, what

does it mean to post content to a website?

18
19

I don't think of anything

MS. LU:

Objection to the extent it calls

for expert testimony.

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

Q.

Do you understand the question?

22

A.

Yes.

In the basic sense, I understand it

23

to -- to be something that an individual or an

24

automated program does to -- to transmit content to

25

a website.

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Q.

Is that otherwise known as uploading?

2

A.

I think that the two terms are used

3

interchangeably a lot.

4

MS. AHMAD:

Can we take a break?

5

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

6

VIDEO OPERATOR:

7

The time is 10:04 a.m.,

and we are off the record.

8

(Brief recess.)

9

VIDEO OPERATOR:

10

and we are on the record.

11
12

The time is 10:11 a.m.,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, just so we have a frame of

13

reference, individuals not employed by Internet

14

Archive are allowed to post content to Internet

15

Archive's website?

16

A.

That's correct.

17

Q.

And I believe we discussed people who have

18

such posting or uploading access could be anywhere

19

in the thousands to hundreds of thousands?

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

And why are these nonemployee individuals

22

allowed to post content to Internet Archive's

23

website?

24
25

MS. AHMAD:

Objection, outside the scope

of the deposition topics.

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San Francisco, CA

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MR. HUDIS:

2

Q.

You may answer.

3

A.

One of the reasons why is to enable

4

sharing of information and to -- to expand the

5

amount of materials that's available for public use

6

and sharing at archive.org.

7

MR. HUDIS:

8

VIDEO OPERATOR:

9

Off the record.
The time is 10:12 a.m.,

and we are off the record.

10

(Discussion off the record.)

11

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5 marked for

12

identification.)

13

VIDEO OPERATOR:

14

The time is 10:13 a.m.

We are on the record.

15

MR. HUDIS:

We've now marked as Exhibit 5

16

a document which says at the top, "Terms of Use

17

10 March 2001," bearing production numbers IA-AERA

18

38 through 40.

19
20

Counsel for Internet Archive, can you
stipulate this is a business record of your client?

21

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

22

MR. HUDIS:

Any objections, Ms. Lu?

23

MS. LU:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Q.

No objection.

Mr. Butler, do you recognize this document

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
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of Exhibit 5?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

What is it?

4

A.

This is the Internet Archive's terms of

Q.

And to what activity associated with

5
6
7

use.

Internet Archive are these terms of use applied?

8

MS. LU:

9

MR. HUDIS:

10
11
12

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

You may answer if you understand the

question.
A.

Use of the website both by individuals who

13

establish an account and also by users who visit

14

the website without establishing an account.

15

Q.

So if I understand your answer, and if I'm

16

wrong, correct me, if I'm an individual or an

17

outside organization, not employed with Internet

18

Archive, who wants to post content to Internet

19

Archive's website, I would have to comply with

20

these terms of use, is that correct?

21

A.

22
23

MS. LU:

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

24
25

Yes.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

You may answer.

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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

A.

Yes, any -- any individual or institution

2

who -- who uses Internet Archive's website as a

3

visitor agrees to these terms of use.

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

6

of use?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

Who participated in writing these terms of

9

use?

10
11

Did you participate in writing these terms

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

Q.

If you know.

14

A.

I don't know.

15

Q.

And the date of these terms of use says

16

10 March, 2001.

Do you see that?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

To the best of your knowledge, are these

19

terms of use still in effect today?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Were these terms of use, to the best of

22

your knowledge, in effect between 2012 and 2014?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Must individuals not employed with

25

Internet Archive or outside organizations agree to

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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these terms of use of Exhibit 5 before they're

2

allowed to post content to Internet Archive's

3

website?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Why?

6
7

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

8

MR. HUDIS:

9

Q.

If you know.

10

A.

I'm not the one who made that decision,

11

and I -- I haven't spoken to those who did to --

12

and, therefore, wouldn't -- wouldn't know exactly

13

why that determination was made.

14

Q.

How are nonemployee individuals and

15

outside companies or organizations made to comply

16

with these terms of use before they're allowed to

17

post content?

18
19

Is it a click-wrap?
What is it?

20
21

MS. LU:

24
25

Objection, vague and ambiguous

and compound.

22
23

Is it a shrink-wrap?

MR. HUDIS:

All right.

I will reask the

question.
Q.

In what form are nonemployee individuals

or outside companies mandated to comply with these

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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terms of use before they're allowed to post content

2

to Internet Archive's website?

3

MS. LU:

4

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

5

Q.

You may answer.

6

A.

Upon signing up for an account, an

7

individual is presented with a check box that

8

indicates that they've read and agreed to these

9

terms of use.

10
11

Q.

And they have to click on that before they

can go on to post?

12

MS. LU:

13

MR. HUDIS:

Vague and ambiguous.

14

Q.

You may answer.

15

A.

That is correct.

16

Q.

What type of oversight, if any, does

17

Internet Archive have over these outside

18

nonemployee individuals who publish content to

19

Internet Archive's website?

20

MS. LU:

21

MS. AHMAD:

22

Objection --

ambiguous.

23

MS. LU:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Objection, vague and

Q.

And argumentative.
Okay.

When an outside individual or company

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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publishes content to Internet Archive's website, do

2

you monitor the content before it's posted?

3
4

MS. LU:
evidence.

5
6

Objection, assumes facts not in

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

You may answer.

7

MS. LU:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Vague and ambiguous.
A general user account's

posts are not reviewed prior to their -- their

10

being posted and automatically processed by the

11

archive.org website.

12
13
14
15
16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Is the content reviewed by Internet

Archive after posting?
A.

The content is not reviewed unless it's

brought to our specific attention.

17

Q.

By whom?

18

A.

It may be brought to our attention by any

19

number of individuals.

20

e-mailed us to our [e-mail] e-mail address.

21

It could be somebody who called about the -- the

22

material.

23

Occasionally, it may be someone who has a complaint

24

about the material.

25

Q.

It could be somebody who

Typically, it's a user of the website.

Does Internet Archive have a policy, if

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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any, about monitoring outside uploaded content to

2

its website?

3

MS. LU:

4

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

5

Q.

You may answer.

6

A.

I'm not aware of any policy.

7

Q.

What is the process by which a nonemployee

8

individual would post content onto Internet

9

Archive's website?

10
11

MS. LU:

Objection, lacks personal

knowledge.

12

THE WITNESS:

Generally, their user

13

account would be used to -- to upload material.

14

They would have an opportunity to submit files and

15

metadata pertaining to those files to be posted on

16

one of our standard details pages.

17
18
19

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And before they start the process of

uploading to a details page, they have to log in?

20

A.

That's correct.

21

Q.

And they have a user name and password?

22

A.

That's correct.

23

Q.

And that would have to be authenticated by

24

Internet Archive before they could proceed with the

25

upload?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 48

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

When the material -- once the material is

3

uploaded, is there any formatting of the material

4

done in order for it to reside on Internet

5

Archive's website?

6

MS. LU:

7

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

8

Q.

You may answer.

9

A.

Can you define "formatting"?

10

Q.

Yes.

11

To put it in a form such that it can

be viewed on Internet Archive's website.

12

MS. LU:

13

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Certain file types may

14

automatically trigger the system to create

15

derivative file formats.

16

document may be supplied in a PDF format, and the

17

system may automatically generate other formats of

18

that text, including an EPUB file.

19

spelling.

20

file extension.

21
22
23

For instance, a text

A format called DjVu.

E-P-U-B is the

D-j-V-u-is the

Also, a plain text file.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And is that formatting done automatically

by Internet Archive's computer systems?

24

A.

It is.

25

Q.

So that we have a basic working definition

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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so I don't have to completely define this over and

2

over again, I'm going to refer to a submitter as an

3

outside, nonemployee person or organization.

4

A.

Okay.

5

Q.

All right.

Okay?

6

Does Internet Archive process

documents after they are posted by a submitter?

7

MS. LU:

8

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

9

Q.

You may answer.

10

A.

If creating derivative file formats and

11

arranging the item -- the submitted files so that

12

they may be viewed on a web page along with the

13

submitted metadata is considered processing, those

14

are things that the Internet Archive's website

15

performs.

16

Q.

17

You just anticipated my next question.
And that process is done automatically?

18

A.

That's correct.

19

Q.

So we have a working definition, what is a

A.

A URL is the address that corresponds to a

20
21

URL?

22

web page.

23

Technically it, as I understand it, it generally

24

corresponds to a location on a web server.

25

Q.

It may correspond to a web page.

Does Internet Archive control the URL name

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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and location structure of materials posted to its

2

website by submitters?

3

MS. LU:

4

THE WITNESS:

5

Can you reread the question,

please?

6
7

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Does Internet Archive control the URL name

8

or location structure of materials posted to

9

Internet Archive's website by submitters?

10
11
12
13
14
15
16

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
MS. AHMAD:

Objection, vague as to

"control."
MR. HUDIS:

Q.

I'll give you an example

of what I mean.
In our subpoena of Exhibit 1, deposition

17

subpoena, Exhibit A-1 to deposition Exhibit 1, has

18

a URL associated with the posting of the

19

1999 standards to Internet Archive's website and it

20

reads as follows --

21

MS. LU:

22

I'm afraid this might be a little

23
24
25

What page are you on, Jonathan?

confusing for the record.
MR. HUDIS:
the record:

And I will read the URL into

https://archive.org/details/gov.law.

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1
2

aera.standards.1999."
Q.

Mr. Butler, when the material posted to

3

Internet Archive's website on Exhibit A-1 of

4

deposition Exhibit 1 was put there, who created the

5

name of this URL at the bottom left-hand corner?

6
7

MS. LU:

and lack of personal knowledge.

8
9

Objection, vague and ambiguous

THE WITNESS:

The prefix

"archive.org/details" is the default URL prefix

10

assigned by the archive.org website.

The following

11

text is what we call the identifier.

That is

12

something that is submitted by the submitter.

13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, to the best of your knowledge,

15

what is Public.Resource.Org, Inc., which I will

16

refer to for the rest of this deposition as Public

17

Resource?

18
19

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

Q.

You may answer to the extent you know.

22

A.

What I know about Public.Resource.Org is

23

that it makes available government documents to the

24

public, and that's part of its mission.

25

Q.

And how do you know about Public Resource?

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1
2
3
4

A.

I know about Public.Resource.Org through

their posting of material on archive.org.
Q.

That's the other name of Internet

Archive's website?

5

A.

That's correct.

6

Q.

What else, if anything, do you know about

7

Public Resource?

8
9

MS. AHMAD:
ambiguous.

10
11

Objection, vague and

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Other than its posting of what you call

12

government documents on internetarchive.org's

13

website, what else, if anything, do you know about

14

Public Resource?

15
16

A.

I believe that that -- that generally

covers what I know about Public Resource.

17

Q.

Do you know Carl Malamud?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

How do you know him?

20

A.

I've met him on brief occasion when he was

21
22
23
24
25

at Internet Archive.
Q.

And why did Carl Malamud visit Internet

Archive?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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THE WITNESS:

The instance when I met him,

2

he was speaking at a public function that Internet

3

Archive was hosting.

4

Aaron Swartz.

5
6

It was a memorial service for

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Who was Aaron Swartz?

7

MS. LU:

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Aaron Swartz was a public

figure and former employee of Internet Archive.

10
11

Objection, relevance.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Other than speaking at this memorial

12

function, do you remember any other times that

13

Mr. Malamud visited Internet Archive when you were

14

present?

15
16

A.

Yes.

Perhaps a total of four or five

times.

17

Q.

What were the purpose of those visits?

18

A.

I don't know.

19

Q.

Did he make any speeches other than the

20

one at the memorial service?

21
22

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

23

THE WITNESS:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Q.

I'm not aware of any.

Do you know what the nature of his

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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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meetings at Internet Archive was those other four

2

or five times?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

What else do you know about Mr. Malamud?

5
6

MS. AHMAD:

Objection, outside the scope

of the deposition topics.

7

MR. HUDIS:

8

Q.

You may answer.

9

A.

I know he's involved with Public Resource.

10

Q.

That was my next question.

11
12
13

What, if anything, do you know about
Mr. Malamud's relationship to Public Resource?
A.

As I understand it, he -- he's very

14

central at Public Resource.

15

title and responsibilities at the organization.

16

Q.

I don't know his exact

Is that the extent of your knowledge of

17

the relationship between Mr. Malamud and Public

18

Resource?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Is Public Resource allowed to post content

21

to Internet Archive's website?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Is Carl Malamud allowed to post content

24
25

into Internet Archive's website?
A.

Yes.

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

MS. LU:

2

MR. HUDIS:

3
4

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

When was Public Resource given access to

publish content to Internet Archive's website?

5

MS. LU:

6

THE WITNESS:

7

MR. HUDIS:

8
9

Q.

I don't know.

When was Carl Malamud given access to post

content to Internet Archive's website?

10
11

Vague and ambiguous.

MS. LU:

Lack of personal knowledge, vague

and ambiguous.

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

Q.

You may answer.

14

A.

I don't know.

15

Q.

Is there a formal agreement between

16

Internet Archive and Public Resource that

17

memorializes, if there is one, posting rights to

18

the Internet Archive website?

19
20

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

Q.

You may answer.

23

A.

If a -- if a user account was set up

24

through the -- through the site and our terms of

25

use were agreed to, then our terms of use would

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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fall under that description.

2

other agreements.

3

Q.

I'm not aware of any

Do you know whether the terms of use were

4

agreed to by Public Resource or Carl Malamud or

5

both?

6
7

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

8

MR. HUDIS:

9

Q.

You may answer if you know.

10

A.

I don't know.

11

Q.

Other than the terms of use of Exhibit 5,

12

you said there was no formal agreement between

13

Public Resource or Carl Malamud and Internet

14

Archive for posting rights.

15

Was there any informal agreement?

16

MS. LU:

17

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

18

MR. HUDIS:

19

Q.

You may answer.

20

A.

Can you define "posting rights"?

21

Q.

Permission to upload content to Internet

22
23

Archive's website.
A.

I'm not aware of any.

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

VIDEO OPERATOR:

Off the record.
The time is 10:33 a.m.

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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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We are off the record.

2

(Discussion off the record.)

3

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6 marked for

4

identification.)

5

VIDEO OPERATOR:

6

The time is 10:41 a.m.

We are on the record.

7

Mr. HUDIS:

I've now marked as Exhibit 6 a

8

web page with different views which I will discuss

9

with the witness in a moment.

10

eight pages.

11

Q.

It's a total of

Mr. Butler, what we did -- it's on the

12

date stamped up in the upper left-hand corner,

13

March 14, 2014.

14

The way that we understand the material

15

which we call the 1999 standards was uploaded to

16

Internet Archive's website.

17

frame here, showing the witness, has the ability so

18

that electronically you read it like a book.

19

The material in this

So we took a first shot of the web page

20

with the first page of the '99 standards, and then

21

the second page which is the front cover of the

22

'99 standards, and then we took another shot,

23

screenshot, of the inside cover and copyright page,

24

and then finally the table of contents.

25

Do you see that?

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

So these are, in fact, different shots of

3

the same page with different turns, electronically,

4

of the book.

5

Do you understand that?

6

A.

I understand.

7

Q.

Okay.

8
9
10

So --

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

So you should answer

questions about this exhibit assuming that that
description is accurate.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

Q.

I understand.

Mr. Butler, do you recognize Exhibit 6 as

14

a web page from Internet Archive's website that

15

existed at one time?

16
17

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

18

THE WITNESS:

19

Internet Archive details page.

20

the layout and design of an Internet Archive

21

details page.

22
23
24
25

This has the layout of an
I recognize it as

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know what material is posted on

this web page of Exhibit 6?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

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December 2, 2014
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knowledge.

2
3

THE WITNESS:

I see a title for the

material.

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

What title is that?

6

A.

The title is "AERA:

Standard for

7

Educational and Psychological Testing," and then

8

there's a date in parentheses following that,

9

"1999."

10

Q.

According to this exhibit, the bottom of

11

the second page, who posted the 1999 standards to

12

this web page?

13
14
15

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

On the -- on the second

16

page, I see a metadata tag entitled, "Credits" that

17

reads "Uploaded by Public.Resource.Org.

18

As I understand the function of our

19

website, the submitter would have submitted that

20

tag and the text displayed beside it, reading

21

"Uploaded by Public.Resource.Org."

22

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel, can you stipulate

23

that Exhibit 6 is a business record of Internet

24

Archive that existed at one time, at least on

25

March 14th, 2014?

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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
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MS. AHMAD:

2

MR. HUDIS:

3
4

Q.

No, I can't.

On the second page of Exhibit 6, it says,

"Identifier-access."

5

Do you see that?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Based upon your knowledge of an Internet

8

Archive details page, who created this identifier

9

access string?

10
11

MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

lack of personal knowledge.

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

Q.

You may answer.

14

A.

I don't know.

I don't know whether a

15

submitter would have created that or whether the

16

Internet Archive's automated processes created it.

17
18

Q.

the other?

19
20

To the best of your knowledge it's one or

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

21

THE WITNESS:

To the best of my knowledge,

22

it would either have been performed by Internet

23

Archive's automated processes or an account holder

24

with requisite permission to edit this item's

25

metadata.

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December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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MR. HUDIS:

2

Q.

To the best of your knowledge, if you

3

could look on Page 1, beneath the -- beneath the

4

frame containing the 1999 standards, who wrote the

5

text under where it says, "Description"?

6
7

MS. LU:
knowledge.

8
9

Objection, lack of personal

THE WITNESS:

The service requires a

description to be provided by the submitter at the

10

time of upload.

11

be edited by an account that has permissions to do

12

so.

13
14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

Sorry, could you repeat the

question, please?

20
21

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge and argumentative.

18
19

And in this context, that account would

have been by Public.Resource.Org?

16
17

That information may subsequently

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Yes,

yes.

22

Is it correct to say that the text on this

23

web page of Exhibit 6, beneath the frame containing

24

the 1999 standards, was provided by the submitter?

25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 62

1

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

2

THE WITNESS:

In the instance of the item

3

with this identifier, our records show that the

4

description was provided by the submitter.

5
6
7

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

knowledge, looking at this exhibit?

8
9

Who was the submitter, to the best of your

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

10

THE WITNESS:

Our records list an account,

11

a user account, as the submitter for this -- for

12

the item with this identifier.

13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

15
16

And do you know whose account that is?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

17

THE WITNESS:

The -- I know that the user

18

account is associated with an e-mail address which

19

is [e-mail].

20
21

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know whether [e-mail] is Carl

22

Malamud's e-mail address?

23

MS. LU:

24
25

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

I recognize that e-mail

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 63

1

address as Carl Malamud's e-mail address.

2
3
4

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

At the bottom of Page 1 of Exhibit 6, it

says, "Downloaded 1,113 times."

5

What does that downloaded number reflect?

6

MS. LU:

7

knowledge.

8
9

Objection, lack of personal

THE WITNESS:

That number, the -- the

downloaded number?

10

MR. HUDIS:

11

Q.

Yes.

12

A.

Is the same as the download account to

13

which we referred earlier today.

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

VIDEO OPERATOR:

16

Off the record.
The time is 10:50 a.m.,

and we are off the record.

17

(Discussion off the record.)

18

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7 marked for

19

identification.)

20

VIDEO OPERATOR:

21

and we are on the record.

22
23

The time is 10:52 a.m.,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

I've marked as deposition Exhibit 7 a

24

document that is a single page entitled, "Item

25

History for gov.law.aera.standards.1999."

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 64

1

MS. LU:

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

MS. LU:

4

Can you say that again?
Okay, I'll do it again.

Jonathan, if you could repeat the

Bates number on that.

5

MR. HUDIS:

6

It's a document that's named at the top,

Sure.

I'll do both.

7

"Item History for gov.law.aera.standards.1999."

8

Bears production number IA-AERA-036.

9

Q.

Mr. Butler, I'll show you again what's

10

been marked as Exhibit 2 which is the document

11

subpoena.

12

minute.

13

A.

Okay.

14

Q.

Thank you, Mr. Butler.

15

Please look at items 1 through 4 for a

In order to comply with the document

16

subpoena, or Exhibit 2, who at Internet Archive

17

searched your company's records to determine how

18

the 1999 standards were posted to the Internet

19

Archive's website?

20
21

MS. LU:

Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence and argumentative.

22

MR. HUDIS:

23

Q.

You may answer.

24

A.

Would you read that for me, please?

25

Q.

Sure.

In order to comply with our

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 65

1

document subpoena of Exhibit 2, you've read items 1

2

through 4.

3

Who at Internet Archive searched your

4

company's records to determine how the

5

1999 standards were posted to your company's

6

website?

7

A.

I did.

8

Q.

Mr. Butler, I now show you Exhibit 7 and

9

ask you if you recognize the document.

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

What is it?

12

A.

This document is a history showing a

13

summary of all of the technical tasks submitted for

14

the item with the identifier gov.law.aera.

15

standards.1999.

16
17
18
19

Q.

And how is the results of that search in

any way related to the content of Exhibit 6?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

20

THE WITNESS:

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

MS. LU:

This is Exhibit 6?
Yes.

Let the record reflect the

23

witness was pointing to what I believe is Page 2 of

24

8 of Exhibit 6.

25

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

It's my copy.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 66

1
2

THE WITNESS:
question, please?

3
4

And would you repeat

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

5

Yes.

And I will state it a different way.

Is Exhibit 7 the results of a search to

6

determine who posted the content on the web page of

7

Exhibit 6?

8
9

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

10

THE WITNESS:

The Exhibit 7 is a result of

11

a search to determine who posted the item

12

associated with the URL listed on the printout for

13

Exhibit 6.

14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And what was the results of that search?

16

MS. LU:

17

THE WITNESS:

18

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
One document located was

the -- the item history that is Exhibit 7.

19

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel for Internet Archive,

20

can you stipulate that Exhibit 7 is a business

21

record of Internet Archive?

22

MS. AHMAD:

23

MS. LU:

24

MR. HUDIS:

25

Q.

Yes.

No objection.
No objection, okay.

And you performed the search, the results

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 67

1
2
3

of which are reflected as Exhibit 7?
A.

Yes, I -- I clicked the link to get to

this history page.

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

VIDEO OPERATOR:

6

Off the record.
The time is 10:57 a.m.,

and we are off the record.

7

(Discussion off the record.)

8

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 marked for

9

identification.)

10
11

VIDEO OPERATOR:

The time is 10:59 a.m.,

and we are on the record.

12

MR. HUDIS:

I now mark as Exhibit 8 a

13

multipage document bearing the production numbers

14

IA-AERA 5 through 34.

15

MS. LU:

And I'll just state for the

16

record that it appears to me that this is actually

17

several documents that were produced consecutively

18

and now are entered as one exhibit together.

19

that --

20
21
22

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Is

That is correct, Counsel.

Mr. Butler, do you recognize the

collection of documents now marked as Exhibit 8?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

What are they?

25

A.

These documents are the logs for -- for

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 68

1

the tasks that are summarized in the item history.

2

They represent the technical tasks submitted for

3

the item with identifier gov.law.aera.standards

4

.1999.

5

Q.

Is it correct to say that the search

6

summary of Exhibit 7 resulted in retrieval of the

7

logs of Exhibit 8?

8

MS. LU:

9

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
I was able to access the

10

logs of Exhibit 8 through hyperlinks that were

11

available on the page for Exhibit 7.

12

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel, can you stipulate

13

that Exhibit 8 is a collection of the business

14

records of Internet Archive?

15

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

16

MR. HUDIS:

Any objection, Counsel?

17

MS. LU:

18

MR. HUDIS:

19

Q.

No objection.

Mr. Butler, how does -- how long does

20

Internet Archive maintain logs of the type shown in

21

Exhibit 8?

22
23
24
25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

As a general practice, these

logs are not deleted unless the item itself is

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 69

1

deleted.

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

Q.

4

do you mean?

And when you say "the item itself," what

5

MS. LU:

6

MR. HUDIS:

7

Q.

8
9

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

Do you mean the item of Exhibit 6?
MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

argumentative.

10

THE WITNESS:

By "item," I mean the -- the

11

collection of files and metadata that are posted

12

associated with a URL archive.org/details/ the

13

identifier.

14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And you were able to retrieve these logs

16

of Exhibit 8 associated with the identifier

17

gov.law.aera.standards.1999?

18

A.

That's correct.

19

Q.

So the item has not yet been deleted from

20

Internet Archive's website?

21

MS. LU:

22

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

23

Q.

You may answer.

24

A.

That's correct.

25

Q.

From where did you gather the logs of

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 70

1
2

Exhibit 8?
A.

The logs of Exhibit 8 were gathered from

3

Internet Archive's servers that serve the site

4

archive.org.

5

Q.

6

servers?

7
8

Who at Internet Archive maintains those

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

9

MR. HUDIS:

10

Q.

If you know.

11

A.

Internet Archive's engineers maintain

12
13

those servers.
Q.

14
15

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

Internet Archive's

engineers.

18
19

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

16
17

Who has access to those servers?

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Internet engineers?

20

MS. LU:

21

MR. HUDIS:

22
23
24
25

Q.

Objection.

What type of engineers have access to

these servers?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 71

1

MR. HUDIS:

2

Q.

You may answer.

3

A.

Internet Archive's Petabox team is the

4

name of the team.

5

Q.

Could you spell Petabox?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And who comprises Internet Archive's

8
9

P-e-t-a-b-o-x.

Petabox team?
A.

Several engineers who work with data

10

clusters, physical hardware and also support the --

11

the back end of Internet Archive, of the

12

archive.org website.

13

Q.

So, generally, the Petabox team is

14

comprised of computer hardware and software

15

engineers?

16

A.

That's correct.

17

Q.

What tool was used to extract these logs

18

of Exhibit 8?

19
20

MS. LU:
knowledge.

21
22

THE WITNESS:

25

I obtained these records

through the web browser Firefox.

23
24

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And through the Firefox web browser, did

you use the Mac Terminal application?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 72

1
2

MS. LU:

Misstates prior testimony.

3
4

Objection, incomprehensible.
Facts not in evidence.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Besides the Firefox web browser, what

5

other tools, if any, did you use to procure the

6

logs of Exhibit 8?

7
8

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

9

THE WITNESS:

The -- I used the Firefox

10

web browser with the site archive.org to -- to

11

obtain these -- these records from archive.org's

12

records of the task history of the item.

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

Q.

And the task history is Exhibit 7?

15

A.

Yes, the -- the summary is Exhibit 7 and

16
17
18

then the specific tasks are Exhibit 8.
Q.

[e-mail]."

19
20

Now, in Exhibit 7, it says, "submitter

You associate that -- that e-mail address
with Carl Malamud?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Looking at the logs of Exhibit 8, at the

23

top of each grouping of pages, first grouping is

24

three pages, the second grouping is thirteen pages,

25

the third grouping is two pages, the fourth

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 73

1

grouping is three pages, the fifth grouping is two

2

pages, the sixth grouping is five pages, and the

3

final grouping is two pages.

4
5

Each one of them has a task ID at the
upper left-hand corner.

Do you see that?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

How did you determine which tasks to

8

search for?

9
10

MS. LU:

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

11

THE WITNESS:

I obtained the task -- the

12

task logs by selecting the hyperlink for each task

13

under "task id" on Exhibit 7.

14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Now, each of these documents of Exhibit 8

16

includes a line that states, "submitter

17

[e-mail]."

18
19

This is the e-mail associated with Carl
Malamud?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And Mr. Malamud has access to Internet

22
23
24
25

Archive's system by a user name and password?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

Yes, I understand this

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 74

1

account to be associated with Carl Malamud.

2
3
4

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

for upload purposes by a user name and password?

5
6

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. HUDIS: Yes.
Q.

How does Mr. Malamud gain access to

Internet Archive's systems to submit a post?

12
13

Would you say the question

one more time, please?

9
10

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, calls for speculation.

7
8

And he accesses Internet Archive's systems

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, calls for speculation.

14

THE WITNESS:

In the instance of this

15

item, it would be through the use of -- this item

16

was submitted through the user account associated

17

with [e-mail] and was used by submission

18

of -- and gained access by submission of the e-mail

19

address and log-in credentials.

20

Q.

What are log-in credentials?

21

A.

Log-in credential would be an e-mail

22
23

address and password.
Q.

Did Internet Archive monitor the materials

24

posted to its servers as reflected by these logs of

25

Exhibit 8?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 75

1
2

MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

lack of personal knowledge.

3

MR. HUDIS:

4

Q.

You may answer.

5

A.

One more time, please.

6

Q.

Yes.

Did Internet Archive monitor the

7

materials posted to its servers as reflected by

8

these logs of Exhibit 8?

9

A.

To the best of my knowledge, no person

10

working on behalf of Internet Archive monitored --

11

personally reviewed the processes at work for each

12

one of these tasks.

13

Q.

And after the material was posted, did

14

Internet Archive exercise any quality control of

15

the materials once submitted?

16
17

MS. LU:
knowledge.

18
19

And vague and ambiguous.

THE WITNESS:

To the best of my knowledge,

no.

20

MR. HUDIS:

21
22

Objection, lack of personal

Q.

And according to Exhibit 8, when did you

search for these logs?

23

A.

According to Exhibit 8, the search was

24

performed on October 30th, 2014 at 9:40:49 Pacific

25

time.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 76

1

Q.

Thank you for a precise answer.

2

A.

You're welcome.

3

Q.

What are the dates of these logs?

4

MS. LU:

5

MR. HUDIS:

6
7

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
All right.

Can you tell from Exhibit 8 the dates of

these logs on Exhibit 8?

8

MS. LU:

9

MR. HUDIS:

10
11

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Okay.

Do you want to go through them one at a

time?

12

A.

There's a -- there's a line at the

13

beginning of each log that reads, "Task started at"

14

that has a record -- has Internet Archive's record

15

of the time of submission for each task.

16
17

Q.

And then at the end of each log is there a

time of finish?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

So, the first task, 107010707, what time

20

was this task started?

21
22

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

23

THE WITNESS:

The task log states the task

24

was started on May 26, 2012 at 11:48 a.m. Pacific

25

time.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 77

1
2
3

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Let's go to task No. 107010788.

That's on

Page -- production Page 8.

4

What time was this task started?

5

MS. LU:

6

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

7

THE WITNESS:

I can only state that our

8

record -- our record states that the task was

9

started at the same date, May 26th, 2012, at

10

11:48 a.m. Pacific time.

11
12
13

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Exhibit 8, when was task 107019567 started?

14
15

And if we go to production Page 21 of

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

16

THE WITNESS:

Again, I only have the

17

record created by our system.

18

the task was started at -- on the same date,

19

May 26th, 2012, at, let's see, 1:07 Pacific time.

20

1:07 p.m.

21
22

That record states

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And if you could turn to page --

23

production Page 23 of Exhibit 8, what time was task

24

107034141 started?

25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 78

1

knowledge.

2

THE WITNESS:

The task log reads that the

3

task started on the same date, May 26th, 2012, at

4

4:46 p.m. Pacific time.

5

MR. HUDIS:

6
7

Q.

Mr. Butler, please turn to Page 26 of

Exhibit 8.

8

What time was task 107040689 started?

9

MS. LU:

10

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

11

THE WITNESS:

The task log states that the

12

task was started on May 27th, 2012, at 6:43 p.m.

13

Pacific time.

14

MR. HUDIS:

15
16

Q.

Exhibit 8.

17
18

Task No. 107040792, according to your
records, when did this task start?

19
20

Mr. Butler, please turn to Page 28 of

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

21

THE WITNESS:

The task log reads that the

22

task started on May 27th, 2012 at 6:43 p.m. Pacific

23

time.

24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, please turn to Page 33 of

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 79

1

Exhibit 8.

2

What time did Task ID 107040809 start?

3

MS. LU:

4

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

5

THE WITNESS:

The task log reads that the

6

task started at -- on May 27th, 2012 at 6:44 p.m.

7

Pacific time.

8

MS. AHMAD:

Let's take a break.

9

MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

10

VIDEO OPERATOR:

This marks the end of

11

volume 1, disk 1 in the deposition of Chris Butler.

12

the time is 11:16 a.m.

We're off the record.

13

(Brief recess.)

14

VIDEO OPERATOR:

This marks the beginning

15

of volume 1, disk 2 in the deposition of Chris

16

Butler.

17

record.

18
19

The time is 11:24 a.m., and we are on the

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, each of these logs of

20

Exhibit 8 reflects a process of content submission

21

by Mr. Malamud or somebody using his credentials?

22
23

MS. LU:

knowledge, and misstates prior testimony.

24
25

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

You may answer.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 80

1

A.

2
3

What was the question again, please?
MR. HUDIS:

Q.

Yes.

Do the logs of Exhibit 8 reflect the

4

activity of submitting content to Internet

5

Archive's website by Carl Malamud or somebody using

6

his log-in credentials?

7
8

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

9

THE WITNESS:

10

MR. HUDIS:

11

THE WITNESS:

The -- these records --

12

Of Exhibit 8.
-- of Exhibit 8 reflect the

tasks submitted for -- for this item.

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

Q.

What item is that?

15

A.

The item is gov.law.aera.standards.1999.

16

Q.

Uh-huh.

17

A.

The record of the submitter in -- in these

18

logs is the account associated with the e-mail

19

address [e-mail].

20
21
22
23
24
25

Q.

Which you associate with Carl Malamud?
MS. LU:

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.
THE WITNESS:

I associate the e-mail

address [e-mail] with Carl Malamud.
MR. HUDIS:

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 81

1

Q.

And each of these logs reflect processes

2

that were performed on May 26th and May 27th of

3

2012?

4
5

MS. LU:
knowledge.

6
7

THE WITNESS:

The question one more time,

please.

8

MR. HUDIS:

9
10

Objection, lack of personal

Q.

Yes.

Each of these logs reflects processes that

were performed on May 26th and May 27th, 2012?

11

A.

The logs list the dates that these were

12

performed as May 27th -- May 26th and May 27th of

13

2012.

14

Q.

Each of these documents of Exhibit 8 is a

15

log that resulted from a command being run on

16

Internet Archive's web servers?

17
18

MS. LU:
knowledge.

19
20

THE WITNESS:

The question one more time,

please.

21
22

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Yes.

Each of these documents of Exhibit 8 is a

23

log that resulted from a command being run on

24

Internet Archive's servers?

25

MS. LU:

And also add, vague and ambiguous

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objection.

2

THE WITNESS:

This is the Internet

3

Archive's log of the -- of the tasks submitted,

4

including commands submitted to Internet Archive's

5

website for the identifier previously mentioned.

6
7

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And each of these logs has a command line

8

that is reflected by the line [cmd] right arrow, do

9

you see that?

10

MS. LU:

11

on which page of which --

Counsel, sorry, where are you,

12

MR. HUDIS:

13

Exhibit 8, the command line.

14

MS. LU:

According to Page 5 of

I think, for the record, you're

15

talking about [cmd] two equal signs and then

16

greater than symbol?

17
18

MR. HUDIS:

Yes, which I define as right

arrow.

19

Q.

Do you see that?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

And if you go back to Exhibit 7, the

22

different commands that were performed starting

23

from the bottom are archive.php, derive.php,

24

bup.php, again twice archive.php, derive.php and

25

bup.php.

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Do you see that?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

And we will leave for later the last one

4

at the top, says, "make_dark."

5

for later.

6
7

Each of these commands has a "php" file
extension.

8
9

We'll leave that

Do you know what a "php" is?

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

10

THE WITNESS:

I don't know what "php"

11

stands for.

12

associated with -- with web pages.

13
14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Is it a scripting language, to the best of

your knowledge?

16
17

It's an extension that I've seen

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

18

THE WITNESS:

19

MR. HUDIS:

20

Q.

21

I don't know.

stored?

22
23

Do you know where the php files are

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

24

THE WITNESS:

25

MR. HUDIS:

No.

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Q.

2
3

Do you know who wrote the php scripts?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

4

THE WITNESS:

5

MR. HUDIS:

6
7

Q.

Do you know if the php file extensions

were Carl Malamud's scripts?

8
9

No.

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

10

THE WITNESS:

I know that -- that these

11

commands that you see listed in the command

12

column --

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

THE WITNESS:

The witness is pointing --- on Exhibit 7 and also

15

listed by the bracketed command tag by the right

16

arrow previously mentioned are generic commands

17

that are associated with many, many items.

18

are very common commands and functions of the

19

archive.org website.

20
21
22

They

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Looking at Exhibit 7, you see there is a

column that says "args," do you see that?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Do you know whether that stands for

25

arguments?

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2

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

3

THE WITNESS:

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

No.

Do you know what arguments were supplied

6

for each of the commands for each of these logs so

7

that -- so that the process described in the log

8

would run?

9
10

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

11

THE WITNESS:

There are records of -- of

12

information associated with the term "args" in

13

each -- in each task log.

14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So, for example, looking at Exhibit 7,

16

does the submission of the argument

17

"done=delsrc&from_url=ry" -- excuse me, "rsyn..."

18

enable archive.php to run?

19
20

MS. LU:
knowledge.

21
22

THE WITNESS:

25

I don't know that that's

what enables archive.php to run.

23
24

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Looking at Exhibit 7, do you know what

each of these commands do?

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2

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

3

THE WITNESS:

I have a general

4

understanding of the function of each of these

5

commands.

6

MR. HUDIS:

7

Q.

What does the archive.php command do?

8

A.

Archive.php is associated with the

9

submission of files or information by a user to be

10

incorporated into the item and displayed, made

11

available with that item.

12
13

Q.

Do you know why the archive.php command

was run three times?

14

MS. LU:

15

knowledge.

16

Objection, lack of personal

evidence.

17

And objection, assumes facts not in

THE WITNESS:

Generally, the first

18

archive.php is associated with the submission of --

19

of a -- a file relating to a work that is a text or

20

movie or audio recording.

21

metadata that needs to be submitted with the

22

initiating task for an item.

23

It also contains

Subsequent archive.php commands may

24

correspond to the submission of further files --

25

excuse me, further files for information to be

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incorporated with the item.

2
3

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

4
5

Do you know what the derive.php file does?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

6

THE WITNESS:

Derive.php is associated

7

with the creation of derivative file formats that

8

the archive.org website automatically generates

9

from the original file and -- and presents on the

10

item -- on the item's details page.

11

MR. HUDIS:

12

Q.

On the website?

13

A.

On archive.org.

14

Q.

What does the bup.php command do?

15
16

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

17

THE WITNESS:

"Bup" is associated with

18

creation of a backup of -- of the files, of the

19

item's files, as Internet Archive uses two copies,

20

creates and maintains two copies of a file in case

21

one server has issue that prevent those files from

22

being available.

23
24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know why the backup.php command was

run twice?

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2

MS. LU:
knowledge.

3

Objection, lack of personal

And assumes facts not in evidence.

THE WITNESS:

The backup.php command is

4

typically run after a change is made to an item,

5

and it is the updating of the backup copy.

6
7

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, all of the logs produced by

8

Internet Archive which are now reflected in

9

Exhibit A have the identifier gov.law.area

10

.standards.1999.

11

MS. LU:

12

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and misdescribes the documents.

13
14

What is this?

THE WITNESS:

The question is asking what

the identifier is?

15

MR. HUDIS:

16

Q.

Yes.

17

A.

The identifier is a string of characters

18

that is submitted with an item by the submitter

19

that is unique to the item and then is incorporated

20

into the URL for the public page for the item.

21
22
23

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And that in this instance is reflected in

Exhibit 6?

24

MS. LU:

25

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The same identifier listed

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for the tasks on Exhibit 8 appears in the URL at

2

the bottom of the printouts for Exhibit 6.

3
4

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So if Mr. Malamud was the submitter in

5

this case, was it Mr. Malamud who named this

6

particular identifier "gov.law.aera.standards

7

.1999"?

8
9

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, calls for speculation.

10

THE WITNESS:

The records of the task log

11

state that the identifier submitted for this item

12

by the submitter is gov.law.aera.standards.1999.

13
14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

In each of the logs of Exhibit 8, there is

a line that says, "server."

16

Do you see that?

17

A.

I see a line that begins with "server."

18

Q.

All right.

19

And then it follows with

"ia600500.us.archive.org."

20

What is this identifier?

21

MS. LU:

22

MR. HUDIS:

23
24
25

Objection.
Next to -- sorry, next to

"server"?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

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THE WITNESS:

The string of characters

2

next to "server" is the location of a server

3

maintained by Internet Archive that has a server

4

name of "ia600500."

5

MR. HUDIS:

6

Q.

Do you know what is stored on this

7

particular server?

8

"ia600500"?

9
10

MS. LU:

The one you just named,

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge and misstates prior testimony.

11

THE WITNESS:

Generally, servers

12

referenced in task logs store information posted to

13

archive.org's website.

14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And if you notice, the server name for

16

task 107010707 is different from the server of the

17

task 107010788.

18

Do you see that?

19

MS. LU:

20

THE WITNESS:

21

Yes, I see a different

server name for these two tasks.

22
23

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

What's -- if you know, what is the

24

difference between the server from the task

25

107010707 and the server of task 107010788?

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2

MS. LU:

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

3
4

THE WITNESS:

I don't know of a

substantial difference between these two servers.

5
6

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So if I were to go through the rest of the

7

logs of Exhibit 8 and there were different named

8

servers, you would not know the difference from one

9

server to the next?

10
11

MS. LU:

Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

MR. HUDIS:

14

Q.

Correct.

Mr. Butler, let's go back to Exhibit 6,

15

and that's the 1999 standards posted to Internet

16

Archive's website.

17
18

MS. LU:
testimony.

19
20

Objection, misstates prior

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do the logs of Exhibit 8 reflect Carl

21

Malamud or someone with his log-on credentials

22

posting the 1999 standards to Internet Archive's

23

website?

24
25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, calls for speculation, and misstates

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prior testimony.

2

And argumentative.

THE WITNESS:

The logs in Exhibit 8 have a

3

recorded submitter of [e-mail] for the item

4

with the identifier gov.law.aera.standards.1999.

5

This is the same identifier that is listed at the

6

bottom of the printout for Exhibit 6.

7
8
9
10

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Internet Archive's website in May of 2012, were any
other materials posted with them?

11
12

When the 1999 standards were posted to

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge and relevance.

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. HUDIS:

Can you define "materials"?

15

Q.

Metadata.

16

A.

The -- the task log indicates that a file

17

named "aera.standards.1999.pdf_meta.text" was

18

submitted.

19

"gov.law.aera.standards.1999_meta.xml" was created.

20

Typically, these are associated with the submission

21

of metadata from a submitter.

22
23
24
25

Q.

It also indicates that a file named

For what purpose?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS:

Generally, the -- the

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metadata is submitted to archive.org and displayed.

2

Sometimes it has -- it has informational value for

3

the item.

4

title for an item or an author.

5
6

An example would be the submission of a

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So, for example, on Exhibit 6, it says,

7

"Author:

8

Association."

9
10

Is that the type of metadata you were
talking about?

11
12

American Educational Research

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

13

THE WITNESS:

Yes, that would be an

14

example of metadata that would typically be

15

submitted by a submitter to be -- to be displayed,

16

along with a posted item.

17
18

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Did any Internet Archive employees have

19

any participation in posting the 1999 standards or

20

associated metadata to Internet Archive's website?

21

A.

One more time, please.

22

Q.

Sure.

Did any Internet Archive employees

23

have any participation in posting the

24

1999 standards or associated metadata to Internet

25

Archive's website?

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A.

To the lack [sic] of my knowledge, no

2

Internet Archive employee directly participated in

3

the posting of this item to archive.org.

4

Q.

What involvement, if any, did Internet

5

Archive have in the posting of the 1999 standards

6

or associated metadata to Internet Archive's

7

website?

8

MS. LU:

9

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The Internet Archive

10

website, according to this task log, appears to

11

have run standard automated processes responsive to

12

commands submitted by a submitter.

13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Once posted by Mr. Malamud, where on

15

Internet Archive's website could the 1999 standards

16

be found?

17
18

I'm talking about the URL.
MS. LU:

Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence.

19

THE WITNESS:

The -- the URL associated

20

with this identifier would be archive.org/details/

21

gov.law.aera.standards.1999.

22

MR. HUDIS:

23
24
25

Q.

Was the uploaded metadata also posted to

this same URL?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

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knowledge.

2

THE WITNESS:

It seems that a metadata

3

file was created and associated with the item.

4

don't see any signs of -- of error in that process

5

from looking at these logs.

6
7
8
9

MR. HUDIS:

I

So let's go through each one

of the logs one at time.
Q.

What is happening -- this is in

Exhibit 8 -- in the log of task 107010707?

10

MS. LU:

Objection, lack personal

11

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

12

narrative.

13

THE WITNESS:

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

THE WITNESS:

16

It calls for a

MR. HUDIS:

17
18

Q.

Can you be more specific -Yes.
-- with the question?

What function is being recorded by the log

of 107010707?

19

MS. LU:

20

THE WITNESS:

Same objections.
The log is associated with

21

an archive.php command which I understand to relate

22

to the submission of files and/or metadata.

23
24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Now, you see below the definition of the

task, it says, "Getting file(s) from," and it gives

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you a very long URL which starts with "rsync."

2
3
4
5

Do you see that?
A.

Sorry, this is near the bottom of the

first page?
Q.

6

Yes.
MR. HUDIS:

May I point to the witness,

8

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

9

MR. HUDIS:

7

10
11

Counsel?

Q.
file(s)"?

12
13

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

18

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Now, is that the URL from which the

document was uploaded?

19
20

I see -- I see where the log

says, "Getting file(s)."

16
17

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

14
15

So you see "Getting file(s)" and "Getting

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

21

THE WITNESS:

This is a URL associated

22

with a submission of information to archive.org for

23

posting with the item.

24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the item, the first item is

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1,825 bytes, do you see that?

2
3

MS. LU:
knowledge.

4
5

THE WITNESS:

8
9
10
11

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the second "Getting file" then results

in a receipt of -A.

I see a line that states that 1,000,493 --

excuse me -- 14,934,120 bytes received.
Q.

12
13

I see a line that it states

that 1,825 bytes received.

6
7

Objection, lack of personal

Does the log say received from where?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

14

THE WITNESS:

The notes indicating the --

15

or stating the receipts of this amount of

16

information directly -- directly follow tasks

17

stating that files are being retrieved from the

18

long URL following the term "rsync."

19
20
21

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

production Page 6 of Exhibit 8, the next page.

22
23

Now, you see towards the middle, it says,
"Now synchronizing item to the backup server."

24
25

Could you please turn to Page --

Do you see that?
A.

Yes.

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Q.

At how many locations are the

2

1999 standards stored within Internet Archive, if

3

know?

4
5

MS. LU:

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

6
7

THE WITNESS:

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10
11

Generally, items submitted

to archive.org are stored on two different servers.

8
9

Objection, lack of personal

For what purpose?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

12

THE WITNESS:

As -- as I had stated

13

earlier, Internet Archive uses paired storage in

14

the instance that one server becomes inaccessible.

15
16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Now, lower down on the same page,

17

production Page 6 of Exhibit 8, it says, "Deleting

18

from hd.www37," et cetera, et cetera,

19

"us.archive.org."

20

Why are these files being deleted?

21

MS. LU:

22
23
24
25

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.
THE WITNESS:

I don't know exactly what

files are being deleted pursuant to this line.
MR. HUDIS:

Let's turn to production

Alderson Reporting Company
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Page 99

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Page 8 of Exhibit 8.

2

task with the ID 107010788.

3

Q.

4
5

And we're now on the 13-page

What task is this log reflecting?
MS. AHMAD:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

6

THE WITNESS:

This log is associated with

7

task No. 107010788.

8

with a derive.php command both in the task log and

9

in the item history.

10

This task ID is associated

MR. HUDIS:

11

Q.

And what function is being performed

12

according to this log which has a derive.php

13

command?

14
15

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

16

THE WITNESS:

Derive.php is associated

17

with the automated creation of derivative file

18

formats by the archive.org website.

19

MR. HUDIS:

20

Q.

21
22

Do you know what the BookOp module does?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

23

THE WITNESS:

No, I don't know what that

24

specific -- I don't know what the BookOp module

25

does.

Alderson Reporting Company
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Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 100

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Page 10 of Exhibit 8.

3
4

Could we turn to production

Q.

Do you see towards the top of the page, it

says, "Heuristic Resolution Analysis"?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

And underneath it, it says, "number of

7

pages in PDF: 211"?

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

Is this the PDF file corresponding to the

10

uploaded 1999 standards?

11
12

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

13

THE WITNESS:

This task appears to be

14

being performed on a file named "aera.standards

15

.1999.pdf."

16

task No. 107010707 states that this file was

17

submitted to the item by the submitter.

18

The initial task for this item with

MR. HUDIS:

19

Q.

And my question from Page 10, Exhibit 8,

20

task 107010788 is, what was the size of that PDF

21

file?

22
23
24
25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

The task history has a

reading that says that the PDF file has 211 pages.

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Page 101

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2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And if you could turn to Page 11 --

3

production Page 11 of Exhibit 8, do you know what

4

is happening where it says formatting gifs?

5
6

MS. LU:
knowledge.

7
8

THE WITNESS:

As clarification, the log

states "forming gifs."

9
10

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:

Thank you, "forming gifs."

Thank you.

11

THE WITNESS:

This appears to be the

12

generation of random images taken from a submitted

13

text which are then displayed alongside the item.

14

This is a standard process performed for texts that

15

are posted to archive.org.

16
17
18

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

excuse me, the AnimatedGIF, G-I-F, module does?

19
20

Do you know what the AnimatedGIFT --

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

21

THE WITNESS:

AnimatedGIF module creates

22

random images from a submitted text to be displayed

23

alongside a posted text to archive.org.

24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And what is the function of these random

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images?

2
3

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

4

THE WITNESS:

The random images, as I

5

understand it, are generated to -- to provide an

6

example of pages that may exist in a text.

7

MR. HUDIS:

8
9

Q.
does?

10
11

And do you know what the AbbyyXML module

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

12

THE WITNESS:

As I understand it, the

13

AbbyyXML module plays a role in generating a text

14

file, a plain text file, of a submitted text.

15
16
17

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, could you turn to Page 13 of

Exhibit 8.

At the bottom, it says, DjvuXML module.

18

Do you know what this module does?

19

MS. LU:

20

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

21

THE WITNESS:

As I understand it, this

22

module creates a derivative of the initially

23

submitted text in a -- that functions with a

24

special reader called a DjVu reader or deja vu

25

reader.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 103

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

3
4

Do you know what a DjVu reader does?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

5

THE WITNESS:

The extent of my knowledge

6

is that a -- a reader will display a -- a DjVu text

7

for -- for display for a user.

8
9

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

10
11

On a website?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

12

THE WITNESS:

I'm afraid I don't recall if

13

it's used within a browser or if it's -- if it is

14

used as a stand-alone application.

15
16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Looking at Exhibit 6, the top third of the

17

page, the 1999 standards were within a framed

18

document which I told you basically turns the

19

pages.

20

Do you know what kind of reader this is?

21

MS. LU:

22
23
24
25

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.
THE WITNESS:

Yes, this is the Internet

Archive's BookReader application.
MR. HUDIS:

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 104

1
2
3
4

Q.

And is that created by the DjVu module or

the BookOp module, or do you not know?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal knowledge

and compound.

5

THE WITNESS:

I know that it's not created

6

by the DjVu module.

7

the BookOp module plays a role in that.

8
9
10
11

I don't know whether are not

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know what the EPUB module does?

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

12

THE WITNESS:

Generally, the EPUB module

13

creates another derivative format that is a -- a

14

.epub file, e-p-u-b.

15
16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

17
18

MS. LU:
knowledge.

19
20

And what does that do?
Objection, lack of personal

Vague and ambiguous.

MS. AHMAD:

For the record, we're on

Page 14 now?

21

MR. HUDIS:

22

are on Page 14 of Exhibit 8.

23

THE WITNESS:

24

MR. HUDIS:

Page 15 -- excuse me.

25

Q.

Yes, we

Thank you.

I'm sorry, the question was?
Yes.

Do you know what the EPUB file does once

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 105

1

created by the EPUB module?

2

A.

An EPUB file is a file format that is

3

associated with an electronic text and must be read

4

by software that's specifically designed to display

5

an EPUB file.

6
7

Q.

This is

on Page 15 of Exhibit 8.

8
9

Do you know what TOC module does?

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. HUDIS:

12
13

Q.

Do you know what a scandataXML module

does?

14
15

No.

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

16

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. HUDIS:

18
19
20
21
22

Q.

No.

Do you know what a PDF module does?

And

that's on page 16 of Exhibit 8.
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

PDF module creates a

23

derivative file of an initial file.

24

a black and white PDF that's smaller in size than

25

any initial PDF that had been submitted.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

It may create

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 106

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

3
4

Do you know what a HackPDF does?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

MR. HUDIS:

No.
Excuse me, HackPDF module.

7

Q.

And the answer is no?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Could you turn to Page -- production

10

Page 20 of Exhibit 8.

11

task 107010788.

12
13

Do you know why each of these files on
Page 20 of Exhibit 8 are being autocleaned?

14
15

This is the last page of

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.

16

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. HUDIS:

18

Q.

No, I don't know.

Could you go to the next task, please,

19

production Page 21 of Exhibit 8.

20

starting task 107019567.

21

according to this log, is the backup command?

22
23
24
25

MS. LU:

This is now

And being performed here,

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.
THE WITNESS:

The command associated with

this task is bup.php, which I understand to be

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 107

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associated with the creation of a backup of an

2

item.

3
4
5
6
7
8
9

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the back -- and the item being backed

up is gov.law.aera.standards.1999?
A.

The identifier listed on this task in this

task history is that identifier.
Q.

And this was, as we discussed before,

placing the item on a backup server to make sure,

10

if one server is not accessible, another server

11

could be accessible at Internet Archive?

12
13

MS. LU:

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.

14
15

THE WITNESS:

18

That is the operation that's

associated with the bup.php command.

16
17

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Could we go to Page 23 of Exhibit 8.

This

is now starting the task 107034141.

19

What task is being performed here?

20

MS. LU:

21
22

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

The command associated

23

listed on this task log is archive.php which is

24

associated with the submission of files or metadata

25

for an item.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 108

1
2
3

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

this task?

4
5

So this was the submission of metadata in

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

6

THE WITNESS:

The task -- the task log

7

states that it was an archive -- states that it was

8

an archive.php command which is associated with the

9

submission of -- of metadata or files.

10
11

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Could you turn to Page -- production

12

Page 24 of Exhibit 8.

13

messages at the bottom of this page.

14

"Warning:

Possible DNS Spoofing Detected!"

15

"Warning:

Remote Host Identification has Changed!

16

It is possible that someone is doing something

17

nasty!"

18
19

It says

Do you know what the purpose of these
warnings are?

20
21

And there are warning

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

22

THE WITNESS:

23

MR. HUDIS:

24
25

Q.

No, I don't.

Please turn to production Page 26 of

Exhibit 8.

This is now starting task

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 109

1

No. 107040689.

2
3

And is this another archive.php command
being performed here?

4
5

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

6

THE WITNESS:

The command associated -- or

7

the command listed on this task log is a command

8

archive.php.

9
10
11

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

performed in this task?

12
13

Do you know what function is being

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

14

THE WITNESS:

Archive.php, again, is

15

associated with the submission of files or metadata

16

for an item.

17
18
19
20
21
22

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And, again, the item is gov.law.aera

.standards.1999?
A.

The identifier listed in these task logs

is that identifier.
Q.

And, again, we see on Page 27 of Exhibit 8

23

the same warnings.

24

warnings are about?

25

A.

And you don't know what those

That's correct.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 110

1
2

Q.

Exhibit 8.

3
4

performed here?
MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

MR. HUDIS:

10

Q.

In this specific log, do you know what is

happening here?

12
13

The command listed on this

task log for this task is derive.php.

9

11

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

7
8

This starts task 107040792.

And the derive.php command is being

5
6

Could we please turn to Page 28 of

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, vague and ambiguous.

14

THE WITNESS:

Generally, a -- an

15

archive.php task may trigger a derive task to

16

update the derivative files after any change has

17

been made to the initially submitted metadata or

18

file.

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Could we turn to Page 31 of Exhibit 8.
At the bottom of that page, do you know

why the files are being autocleaned?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.
THE WITNESS:

No.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 111

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Could we turn now to Page 33 of Exhibit 8.

3

This is the final task and it is identified with

4

107040809.

5
6

Do you know what task is being performed
here, bup.php?

7
8

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

9

THE WITNESS:

The command listed on this

10

task log is bup.php.

11

creation of a backup file -- backup copies of the

12

file for the item.

13
14
15

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

22

That is the identifier that

is listed on this task log.

20
21

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

18
19

And the item being backed up here is

gov.law.aera.standards.1999?

16
17

This is associated with the

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And this is a backup task log?
MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

23

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence, and

24

argumentative.

25

THE WITNESS:

The command listed for this

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 112

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task log is bup.php which is a backup task.

2

MR. HUDIS:

3

VIDEO OPERATOR:

4

Off the record.
The time 12:12 p.m.

We

are off the record.

5

(Brief recess.)

6

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 marked for

7

identification.)

8

VIDEO OPERATOR:

9

and we are on the record.

10
11

The time is 12:20 p.m.,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, I'd like you to refer back to

12

Exhibit 7.

13

command that says, "make_dark.php."

14

And you see at the very top, there's a

Do you see that?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

What does the make_dark command do?

17
18

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

19

THE WITNESS:

20

from public access.

21

Make_dark takes down files

MR. HUDIS:

22
23

Q.

marked as Exhibit 9.

24
25

I'd like you to now look at what has been

What is this one-page exhibit?
A.

This exhibit is a log for a task

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 113

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associated with the item with identifier

2

gov.law.aera.standards.1999.

3

Q.

And what is the command being run as

4

reflected in this log of Exhibit 9 which bears task

5

ID 315793300?

6
7
8
9
10

A.

make_dark.php.
Q.

When we looked at the commands and tasks

of Exhibit 8, you saw that the commands were being
run on multiple servers, correct?

11
12

The command listed in this task log is

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.

13

THE WITNESS:

I saw that there were

14

different server addresses listed in -- throughout

15

the task -- throughout the various tasks associated

16

with this item.

17
18
19

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the task of Exhibit 9, 315793300, on

how many servers was this task run?

20

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

21

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence, vague and

22

ambiguous.

23
24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

According to this tag, there is one server

identified.

Do you see it?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 114

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MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

2

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence, and

3

argumentative.

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

And you see that the server is ia600500?

6

MS. LU:

7

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

8

Q.

You may answer.

9

A.

I see that an address for a server is

10

listed in this task log with the server name of

11

ia600500.

12
13

Q.

Do you see any other servers listed on

this log of Exhibit 9?

14

A.

I see a listing associated with a backup

15

server near the bottom with server address

16

ia700500.us.archive.org.

17

Q.

So do you know if the make_dark command

18

was being run, according this log, on one server or

19

two?

20

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

21

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous.

22

facts not in evidence.

23

THE WITNESS:

And assumes

The item -- the task log

24

states that the item is being synchronized to the

25

backup server.

I would associate that with the --

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 115

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with the performing of the changes made to the

2

primary server also being made to the backup

3

server.

4
5

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Based upon your reading of Exhibit 8,

6

which were the upload logs, do you know on how many

7

servers the item gov.law.aera.standards.1999 were

8

uploaded to, within Internet Archive?

9

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

10

knowledge, misstates prior testimony, assumes facts

11

not in evidence, and vague and ambiguous.

12

THE WITNESS:

I don't know for certain how

13

many servers this may have -- the files and

14

metadata may have resided on.

15

archive.org items reside on a primary server and a

16

backup server at any given time.

17
18

I know generally

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And, according to the make_dark command of

19

Exhibit 9, task 315793300, the make_dark command

20

was associated with server ia600500 and

21

synchronized to server ia700500, is that correct?

22
23
24
25

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.
THE WITNESS:

The -- the task log states

that the servers upon which this command was

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
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Page 116

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performed are server named ia600500 and backup

2

server named ia700500.

3
4

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Even though the make_dark command was

5

performed on these two servers, could Internet

6

Archive's employees still access the 1999 standards

7

on those two servers?

8
9

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and assumes facts not in evidence.

10

THE WITNESS:

I know that, via the

11

archive.org interface, the standards are not

12

accessible to -- to Internet Archive employees and

13

the public.

14

would be a way to -- to access the standards via

15

another method.

16
17

I don't know for certain if there

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

After the make_dark command was performed,

18

is the file still located on Internet Archive's

19

primary and backup servers?

20

the file identified by gov.law.aera .standards

21

.1999.

22
23

MS. LU:

And that's -- that's

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

24

THE WITNESS:

25

this particular item.

I don't know with respect to
Generally speaking, an item

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 117

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that has been made dark still resides on the

2

servers.

3

MR. HUDIS:

4
5

Q.

If you notice within Exhibit 9, this task

315793300, there is a comment.

6

Do you see that?

7

MR. HUDIS:

8

Counsel, permission to point

to the witness?

9

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

listed in the -- the task log.

12

I see a -- a comment tag

MR. HUDIS:

13

Q.

And what does the comment say after the

15

A.

Comment says, "pending outcome of

16

litigation."

17

Q.

14

tag?

18
19

MS. LU:

THE WITNESS:

The comment is associated

with a submitter [e-mail].

22
23

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

20
21

Do you know who wrote that comment?

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know whether counsel was involved

24

in the writing of this comment on this task of

25

Exhibit 9?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 118

1
2

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge, and vague and ambiguous as to "counsel."

3

THE WITNESS:

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

No, I don't know.

Do you know whether inserting a comment of

6

this type, "pending outcome of litigation," is a --

7

sorry, is an approved technique for making content

8

dark from an Internet Archive server?

9
10

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

11

MR. HUDIS:

12

MS. LU:

13

MR. HUDIS:

14
15

Sure.

And vague and ambiguous.
All right.

I'll reask the

question.
Q.

Is inserting a comment of this type,

16

"pending outcome of litigation," an approved

17

technique for removing content from an Internet

18

Archive server?

19

MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

20

assumes facts not in evidence, and lack of personal

21

knowledge.

22

MR. HUDIS:

23

Q.

Do you understand the question?

24

A.

I'll say that the -- a submission of a

25

comment is something that can be done and is not

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 119

1

atypical when an item is made dark.

2

Q.

Is not typical or is not atypical?

3

A.

Is not atypical.

4

Q.

Thank you for the clarification.

5
6

MR. HUDIS:

Is fairly commonly done.

Counsel, can we stipulate that

Exhibit 9 is a business record of Internet Archive?

7

MS. AHMAD:

Yes, we can.

8

MR. HUDIS:

Any objection, Counsel?

9

MS. LU:

10
11

No objection.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So looking again at Exhibit 7 and 9, the

12

search associated with gov.law.aera.standards.1999

13

is reflected in Exhibit 7 and includes the

14

make_dark command, correct?

15

MS. LU:

16

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The -- the records of the

17

task history lists a command of make_dark.php for

18

task ID 315793300.

19

listed for the final task or the task at the top of

20

the list on the item history page, Exhibit 7.

21

This is also the task ID that's

MR. HUDIS:

In the last answer the witness

22

gave, let the record reflect that he was referring

23

to Exhibits 9 and 7.

24

Off the record.

25

VIDEO OPERATOR:

The time is 12:33 p.m.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 120

1

and we are off the record.

2

(Discussion off the record.)

3

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10 marked for

4

identification.)

5

VIDEO OPERATOR:

6

are on the record.

7
8
9

The time is 12:34 and we

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, I now put in front of you a

document marked as Exhibit 10.

It's a one-page

10

document.

11

Archive Error," and it's dated June 30, 2014.

12
13

And it says at the top, "Internet

I'd like you to compare the URL printed on
Exhibit 6 and the URL printed on Exhibit 10.

14

Are they the same?

15

A.

Yes, they are the same.

16

Q.

Now, you notice on Exhibit 6, content is

17

there?

18

MS. LU:

19

MR. HUDIS:

20
21

Q.

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

Is there content shown on Exhibit 6 at the

URL shown at the bottom?

22

MS. LU:

23

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Exhibit 6 shows the standard

24

design and layout for an archive.org details page

25

for a text item.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 121

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the text item is gov.law.aera

3

.standards.1999?

4

MS. LU:

5

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

6

THE WITNESS:

That is the identifier

7

listed in the URL at the bottom of the printout for

8

Exhibit 6.

9
10
11
12
13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And it's also listed in the identifier

access on Page 2 of Exhibit 6?
A.

That identifier is also listed under the

identifier access listing on Exhibit 6.
Q.

Now, if you notice in Exhibit 10, the

15

content is gone.

16

MS. LU:

17

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

argumentative.

18

THE WITNESS:

On Exhibit 10, I see the

19

standard placeholder message that indicates an item

20

is not available.

21
22

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So my question, if Exhibit 6 was printed

23

on March 14, 2014, and Exhibit 10 was printed on

24

June 30, 2014, and they both have the same URL,

25

what happened between March and June such that the

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1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

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1

content on Exhibit 6 was there and then the content

2

in Exhibit 10 is gone?

3

MS. LU:

4

MR. HUDIS:

5

Q.

6
7

Replaced by the placeholder?
MS. LU:

Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence, and calls for speculation.

8
9

Objection --

THE WITNESS:

Typically, when the

placeholder message is displayed on a page that

10

previously displayed a live item, it is an

11

indication that the item has been taken down.

12
13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.
command?

15
16

And is that the result of a make_dark

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

17

THE WITNESS:

18

make_dark command.

19

It can be the result of a

make_dark command.

20
21

Uh -- it can be the result of a

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know whether the change of the live

22

content of Exhibit 6 and then the placeholder that

23

says this item is not available of Exhibit 10

24

resulted from the make_dark command shown in log

25

315793300 of Exhibit 9?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 123

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MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

2

assumes facts not in evidence and lack of personal

3

knowledge.

4

THE WITNESS:

I can state that this is the

5

message and this is how I would expect the page to

6

appear following the submission of a make_dark

7

command for a live item.

8
9
10

MR. HUDIS:

Note that the witness is

pointing to Exhibit 10.
Q.

On Exhibit 10, who, if you know, inserted

11

the language "The item is not available due to

12

issues with the item's content"?

13
14

MS. AHMAD:

Objection, outside the scope

of the deposition topics.

15

MR. HUDIS:

16

MS. LU:

17

MR. HUDIS:

18

Counsel.

19

I would disagree with that.

And lack of personal knowledge.
I would disagree with that,

objections.

20
21
22

Public Resource's counsel can assert her

So I'll reask the question subject to all
objections.
Q.

Do you know who inserted the language in

23

Exhibit 10, "The item is not available due to

24

issues with the item's content"?

25

THE WITNESS:

This is a placeholder

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 124

1

message that was determined years ago.

2

know who drafted that message and selected it.

3

It's the general message that is displayed on an

4

item's page after a make_dark command has been

5

submitted for that item.

6

MR. HUDIS:

7

VIDEO OPERATOR:

8

I don't

Off the record.
The time is 12:41 p.m.

and we are off the record.

9

(Discussion off the record.)

10

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 11 marked for

11

identification.)

12

VIDEO OPERATOR:

13

The time is 12:42 p.m.,

and we are on the record.

14

MR. HUDIS:

15

Q.

Mr. Butler, once content is taken down

16

from an Internet Archive web page from public

17

access, can your company still track the number of

18

visits to that page while the content was still

19

there?

20

MS. LU:

21

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The record that we have

22

is -- is called a download count and relates to the

23

number of visits to -- to pages with files for the

24

item.

25

number of HTTP requests from -- from an IP address

So it's our -- it's our best record of the

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 125

1

where multiple visits from the same IP address in

2

the same day have been counted as one download.

3

MR. HUDIS:

4
5

Q.

Mr. Butler, have you ever heard of the

term "hit count"?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

What does "hit count" refer to?

8

A.

Hit count --

9
10

MS. LU:

Objection to the extent it calls

for expert testimony.

11

MR. HUDIS:

12

Q.

You may answer.

13

A.

Hit count, as I understand it, relates to

14

the amount of visits to a given web page.

15

Q.

So we've talked about today a number of

16

views, a number of downloads, correct, to a web

17

page?

18

A.

19
20

MS. LU:

23

Objection, misstates prior

testimony.

21
22

Yes.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.
A.

You may answer.
We've talked about the definition of our

24

download count number and discussed a little bit

25

how that relates to downloading and viewing.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 126

1
2

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So your company defines download count.

3

Does the download count distinguish between an

4

Internet user's view of a page versus capturing and

5

copying content to go to another computer?

6

MS. LU:

7

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The download count does not

8

distinguish between, for example, a visit to a web

9

page without, for instance, saving that file

10

through the -- a browser's downloader or selecting

11

files' save-as from the browser.

12
13

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Does Internet Archive's download count

14

distinguish between visits from human beings over

15

the Internet versus Internet crawling robots, or

16

bots, or uploaders, or internal visits from

17

Internet Archive processes or staff?

18

MS. LU:

19

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
No.

The download count does

20

not distinguish between all of those different

21

types of access.

22
23
24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

For the purposes of my next question, I

need your definition of what an IP address is.
A.

Okay.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 127

1

Q.

2

What is an IP address?
MS. LU:

Objection, to the extent it calls

3

for expert testimony.

4

THE WITNESS:

What I know about an

5

IP address is that it is a unique number associated

6

with a computer that is connected to a network.

7
8
9
10

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Does Internet Archive's download count

include or exclude multiple visits from the same
IP address during a given day?

11

MS. LU:

12

THE WITNESS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
During a day, as defined by

13

UTC time, Internet Archive's systems are designed

14

to log multiple visits from the same IP -- count,

15

excuse me, count multiple visits from the same

16

IP address as only one download.

17
18

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Does Internet Archive maintain any records

19

or other information that would enable it to be

20

more specific about what is included or excluded

21

from a download count?

22

MS. LU:

23

THE WITNESS:

24
25

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Can you read the question

again, please?
MR. HUDIS:

Yes.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 128

1

Q.

Does Internet Archive maintain any records

2

or other information that would enable it to be

3

more specific about what is included or excluded

4

from a download count?

5

MS. LU:

6
7

THE WITNESS:

I'm not aware of any further

information that we would be able to supply.

8
9

Same objection.

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

How does Internet Archive obtain the

10

download count of a specific web page after the

11

uploaded content is removed?

12

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

13

knowledge, assumes facts not in evidence.

14

if you want to ask him about how someone retrieved

15

this Exhibit 11, then I would not object to that.

16
17

Counsel,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

All right.

I'm going to ask you

18

specifically about Exhibit 11.

19

generally how the information was obtained.

20

I'd like to know

We've established that a make_dark command

21

was run for the content of the 1999 standards in

22

June of 2014, correct?

23
24
25

MS. LU:

Objection, misstates prior

testimony, lack of personal knowledge.
MR. HUDIS:

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 129

1
2

Q.

When was this make_dark command of

Exhibit 9 run?

3

A.

The date listed on the task log for this

4

task which has a command listed of make_dark.php is

5

June 11th, 2014.

6
7

Q.

document that's in front of you.

8

What is the date of this document?

9
10

I've now marked as Exhibit 11 a one-page

A.

The date of Exhibit 11 is November 25th,

2014.

11

Q.

What is this document?

12

A.

This document is a screen capture of the

13

Mac Terminal application.

14

myself to submit a query to archive.org's systems

15

to obtain archive.org's records for the download

16

count for the item with identifier gov.law.aera

17

.standards.1999.

18

Q.

The Terminal was used by

The make_dark command of Exhibit 9

19

associated with that identifier was run in June of

20

2014, correct?

21

A.

The task log lists that date -- the task

22

log associated with the make_dark command lists

23

that date.

24
25

Q.

And the same identifier you got at a

download -- a set of download information on

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 130

1

November 25th, 2014, according to Exhibit 11,

2

correct?

3

MS. LU:

4

THE WITNESS:

5

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Sorry, one more time,

please.

6

MR. HUDIS:

7

Q.

Yes.

We established that make_dark command for

8

gov.law.aera.standards.1999 was run in June of

9

2014, correct?

10
11

MS. LU:
knowledge.

12
13

THE WITNESS:

16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So you got download information for the

same identifier on November 25th, 2014, correct?

17

MS. LU:

18

THE WITNESS:

19

22
23

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
I ran a query for Internet

Archive's download count for that same identifier.

20
21

The task logs list that

date.

14
15

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

So I now ask the same question that I

asked before.
How does Internet Archive obtain a

24

download count for a specific Internet Archive web

25

page after the uploaded content has been removed?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 131

1

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

2

knowledge, misstates prior testimony, and assumes

3

facts not in evidence, and vague and ambiguous.

4

THE WITNESS:

A SQL query can be run on

5

Internet Archive's system to obtain a metadata

6

value that has been associated with this item and

7

generated by archive.org.

8
9
10

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

And the item again is gov.law.aera

.standards.1999?

11

A.

That's correct.

12

Q.

And according to your search and the

13

results that came back on Exhibit 11, how many

14

downloads are reflected for this item while live

15

content was up on the web page associated with

16

gov.law.aera.standards.1999?

17

MS. LU:

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

18

assumes facts not in evidence, lack of personal

19

knowledge.

20

THE WITNESS:

The download count of record

21

from the archive.org system for the identifier that

22

you read is 1,290.

23

MR. HUDIS:

Counsel, will you stipulate

24

that Exhibit 11 is a business record of Internet

25

Archive?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 132

1

MS. AHMAD:

Yes.

2

MR. HUDIS:

Any objections?

3

MS. LU:

4

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12 marked for

5

identification.)

6

MR. HUDIS:

7

No objections.

I'm going to have to make a

quick copy.

8

VIDEO OPERATOR:

9

MR. HUDIS:

10
11

Do you want to go off?

Yes, please.

VIDEO OPERATOR:

The time is 12:54 p.m,

and we're off the record.

12

(Brief recess.)

13

VIDEO OPERATOR:

14

and we're on the record.

15
16
17

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Mr. Butler, all of my following questions

are all relative to the 1999 standards.

18
19

The time is 12:58 p.m.,

Do we understand each other for purposes
of these questions?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Between May of 2012 and June of 2014, have

22

you ever communicated with Carl Malamud?

23

A.

I have received e-mail from Carl Malamud.

24

Q.

So that was my next question.

25

Mr. Malamud initiated the communication?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 133

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

And how did he make that contact?

3

e-mail?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Besides that one e-mail, on the subject of

By

6

the 1999 standards, did you have any other exchange

7

of communications with Mr. Malamud?

8

MS. LU:

9

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, relevance.

10

Q.

You may answer.

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Are you aware of anyone else from Internet

13

Archive communicating with Mr. Malamud regarding

14

the 1999 standards between May of 2012 and June of

15

2014?

16

A.

No.

17

Q.

Do you remember the purpose of

18

Mr. Malamud's communication with you regarding the

19

1999 standards?

20

MS. LU:

21

MR. HUDIS:

Objection, vague and ambiguous.

22

Q.

You may answer.

23

A.

Mr. Malamud sent me an e-mail with an

24

attachment relating to a take-down request that he

25

had received relating to the standards.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 134

1

Q.

I now place in front of you what has been

2

marked as Exhibit 12 and ask if you recognize the

3

collection of documents.

4
5

For the record, Exhibit 12 bears
production numbers IA-AERA 1 through 4.

6

A.

Yes, I recognize these documents.

7

Q.

Was Exhibit 12 produced to us in response

8

to our document subpoena?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

And copied on this e-mail is Brewster

11

Kahle, and you said he is the founder of Internet

12

Archive?

13
14

MS. LU:

knowledge and compound.

15
16
17
18
19
20

Objection, lack of personal

MR. HUDIS:

All right.

Let's take them

one at a time.
Q.

Is Mr. Kahle copied on the e-mail from

Mr. Malamud to you dated December 19th, 2013?
A.

Brewster Kahle's name is listed by the

cc field.

21

Q.

And who is Mr. Kahle?

22

A.

Mr. Kahle is the founder of Internet

23
24
25

Archive.
Q.

And do you know what the initials "SDO"

means?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 135

1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Did you ever ask Mr. Malamud what "SDO"

3

means?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Are you familiar with the term "standards

6

organization"?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Is SDO an acronym for standards

9

organization?

10
11

MS. LU:
knowledge.

12
13

THE WITNESS:

16

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Do you know why Mr. Malamud sent you this

e-mail of Exhibit 12?

17
18

It seems to me that it is.

I don't know for certain.

14
15

Objection, lack of personal

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

19

THE WITNESS:

I know that Mr. Malamud sent

20

me this e-mail with the take-down requests he'd

21

received and his response to the -- to the

22

take-down request, and that it was pertinent to --

23

to something posted on archive.org.

24
25

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Just so we're clear, the e-mail that

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 136

1

Mr. Malamud sent to you on December 19th, 2013, did

2

it relate to a take-down request of material on

3

Public Resource's website or on Internet Archive's

4

website?

5
6

MS. LU:

Objection, lack of personal

knowledge.

7

THE WITNESS:

As I read the e-mail that

8

was forwarded by Carl from aera.net, I see only a

9

listing relating to the website law.resource.org.

10
11
12

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

That's not a website maintained by

Internet Archive, is it?

13

A.

It's not.

14

Q.

Has Mr. Malamud sent you e-mails similar

15

to the one in Exhibit 12 before?

16

MS. LU:

17

THE WITNESS:

18

MR. HUDIS:

19
20

Q.

Objection as to relevance.
Can you define "similar."
Yes.

Complaints by other standards

organizations to take down posted material.

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

How many times?

23

A.

Approximately, five or six.

24

Q.

Since December 19th, 2013, has Mr. Malamud

25

sent you similar e-mails to the one in Exhibit 12?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 137

1
2

MS. LU:
and relevance.

3
4

THE WITNESS:

7

Would you repeat the

question, please?

5
6

Objection, vague and ambiguous,

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Yes.

Since December 2013, has Mr. Malamud sent

you e-mails similar to the one shown in Exhibit 12?

8

MS. LU:

9

THE WITNESS:

Same objection.
I don't recall if

10

Mr. Malamud has sent us an e-mail since that date

11

relating to take-down requests from standard

12

organizations.

13
14

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

Did you, Mr. Butler, discuss the posting

15

of the 1999 standards to Internet Archive's website

16

at any time after you received this letter of

17

Exhibit 12?

18

MS. LU:

19

THE WITNESS:

20

MR. HUDIS:

21

Could you repeat the question?

22

(Record read by Reporter.)

23

MR. HUDIS:

24

THE WITNESS:

25

Objection, vague and ambiguous.
The question again was -Yes.

With Mr. Malamud.
We only notified -- Internet

Archive only notified Mr. Malamud that we had

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 138

1

received the subpoena issued to us for this case.

2
3
4

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

that you received my client's subpoena?

5
6

So you had a conversation with Mr. Malamud

MS. LU:

Objection, assumes facts not in

evidence and misstates prior testimony.

7

THE WITNESS:

A phone conversation

8

occurred with Mr. Malamud to advise him that we had

9

received the subpoena.

10
11
12
13

MR. HUDIS:
Q.

What did he say to you during that phone

conversation?
A.

He -- he said that he -- he understood and

14

that he -- that he hoped it wouldn't be a big

15

burden for Internet Archive.

16
17
18
19

Q.

Have you told me the entirety of that

conversation between you and Mr. Malamud?
A.

I've told you the -- the entirety of the

substance of the communication.

20

Q.

Did you leave out any details?

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

Since receiving this e-mail of Exhibit 12

23

from Mr. Malamud, did you discuss with him

24

disabling public access of the 1999 standards from

25

Internet Archive's website?

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 139

1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Other than Exhibit 12, has Internet

3

Archive exchanged any other correspondence with

4

Mr. Malamud or Public Resource regarding the

5

posting of the 1999 standards to Internet Archive's

6

website or the disabling of public access to the

7

1999 standards on Internet Archive's website?

8

A.

I can say Internet Archive performed a

9

search and discussed with those members of Internet

10

Archive's staff we understood may have communicated

11

with Mr. Malamud upon receiving the -- the

12

subpoenas, and that we did not delete any

13

information after having received that subpoena,

14

and performed a search of the e-mail accounts and

15

the physical files.

16

And this e-mail received from Mr. Malamud

17

is the only record of communication that was found

18

from that search.

19

Q.

And that's the e-mail of Exhibit 12?

20

A.

That's right.

21

Q.

Does Internet Archive maintain any phone

22
23
24
25

logs of its conversations with the outside public?
A.

Our phone system -- our phone system may

have that.
Q.

I don't know.

Well, other than the fact that the call

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 140

1

was made, I'm talking about the substance of the

2

call.

3

Does Internet Archive maintain any call

4

logs of the substance of calls it has with outside

5

individuals or companies?

6

A.

7

No.
MR. HUDIS:

That's all I have for this

8

witness.

9

of the deposition subpoena.

I do keep the deposition open as a result
And unless we can come

10

to some understanding with Public Resource's

11

counsel, we may need to have a second deposition of

12

Internet Archive.

13

MS. LU:

And I'll object that we had

14

discussed the subpoena -- stipulation as to certain

15

matters before this deposition took place, and

16

counsel for plaintiffs withdrew that stipulation in

17

favor of this deposition today.

18

object to any re- -- any second deposition of

19

Internet Archive.

20

MR. HUDIS:

And we would

My recollection is that while

21

I did have conversations with Internet Archive's

22

counsel, I have had no such conversations with

23

Public Resource's counsel on the nature of this

24

deposition or what it might have contained by way

25

of stipulation.

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 141

1
2
3
4
5
6

THE REPORTER:

Do you want a copy of the

deposition?
MS. LU:

I think we'll probably discuss

that off the record afterwards.
Counsel, do you want to reserve 30 days to
make any corrections?

7

MS. AHMAD:

8

MS. LU:

9

Sure.

Yes.

So 30 days after the witness has

an opportunity to review the transcript.

10

VIDEO OPERATOR:

11

MR. HUDIS:

12

VIDEO OPERATOR:

Is that it?

Yes.
This marks the end of

13

volume 1, disk 2 and for the day, at least,

14

concludes the deposition of Chris Butler.

15

is 1:10 p.m. and we are off the record.

16

(Whereupon, the deposition

17

adjourned at 1:10 o'clock p.m.)

18

---o0o---

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

The time

Christopher Butler

December 2, 2014
San Francisco, CA

Page 142

1

CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT

2
3

I hereby certify that I have read and examined the

4

foregoing transcript, and the same is a true and

5

accurate record of the testimony given by me.

6

Any additions or corrections that I feel are

7

necessary, I will attach on a separate sheet of

8

paper to the original transcript.

9
10

_________________________

11

Signature of Deponent

12
13

I hereby certify that the individual representing

14

himself/herself to be the above-named individual,

15

appeared before me this _____ day of ____________,

16

2014, and executed the above certificate in my

17

presence.

18
19

________________________

20

NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR

21
22

________________________

23

County Name

24
25

MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

Alderson Reporting Company
1-800-FOR-DEPO

1

STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2

COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO

I,

3

CINDY

TUGAI/ù/

a Certified

Shorthand

6

Reporter of the State of California, duly
authorized to administer oaths pursuant to Section
B2IL of the Cal-ifornla code of civil Procedure, do

1

hereby certify

4

5

CHRISTOPHER BUTLER'

B

9

10
11

-Lt
1a
TL

13

I4
15

that

the witness in the foregoing deposition, h/as by
duly s\^rorn to testífy the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth in the within-entitled

me

cause; that said testì_mony of said witness \^/as
reported by ilêr a dj-sinterested person' and was
thereafter transcribed under my direction into
typewriting and is a true and correct transcript-ion

20

of said proceedlngs.
. I further certify that I am not of counsef
or attorney for either or any of the parties in t-he
foregolng deposition and caption named, nor ín any
ay int erested in the outcome of the cause named in

2I

said caption.

L6

I1
1B

I9

22

r^i

Dared rhe LzL:n

\y

"t.o"ämber,

201-4.

L:u4 1,"7/t-

24

CINDY TUGAW /

25

CSR NO. 4BO5