AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 36

1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

3
4

AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR
TESTING AND MATERIALS

5

d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;

6

NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION
ASSOCIATION, INC. and

CASE NO.

7

AMERICAN SOCIETY OF

1:13-cv-01215-TSC-DAR

8

HEATING, REFRIGERATING,
AND AIR CONDITIONING

9

ENGINEERS,

10

Plaintiffs-

11

Counterdefendants,

12

vs.

13

PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,

14

Defendant-Counterclaimant.

15

_____________________________________________________

16
17

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MIA D. MARVELLI

18

Sacramento, California

19

Monday, August 19, 2019

20

Volume I

21

Reported by:

22

Carrie Pederson

23

CSR No. 4373, RMR, CRR

24

Job No. 3465980

25

Pages 1 - 202
Page 1
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
3
4 AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR
TESTING AND MATERIALS
5 d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;,
6 NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION
ASSOCIATION, INC. and
CASE NO.
7 AMERICAN SOCIETY OF
1:13-cv-01215-TSC-DAR
8 HEATING, REFRIGERATING,
AND AIR CONDITIONING
9 ENGINEERS,
10 Plaintiffs11 Counterdefendants,
12
vs.
13 PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,
14 Defendant-Counterclaimant.
15 _____________________________________________________
16
17
18
19
Videotaped Deposition of MIA D. MARVELLI,
20 Volume I, taken on behalf of the defendants, at One
21 Capitol Mall, Suite 240, Sacramento, California,
22 beginning at 10:04 a.m. and ending at 4:22 p.m. on
23 Monday, August 19, 2019, before Carrie Pederson,
24 Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 4373.
25
Page 2

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 For Plaintiff National Fire Protection Association:
4
MUNGER, TOLLES & OLSON LLP
5
BY: RACHEL G. MILLER-ZIEGLER
6
Attorney at Law
7
1155 F. Street, N.W.
8
7th Floor
9
Washington, D.C. 20004-1361
10
202-220-1115
11
[e-mail]
12
And
13
MUNGER, TOLLES & OLSON LLP
14
BY: ROSE LEDA EHLER
15
Attorney at Law
16
350 South Grand Avenue
17
50th Floor
18
Los Angeles, California 90071-3426
19
213-683-9240
20
[e-mail]
21
22
23
24
25

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

APPEARANCES: (Continued)
For Plaintiff American Society of Testing and
Materials d/b/a ASTM International:
MORGAN, LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
BY: J. KEVIN FEE
Attorney at Law
1111 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C. 20004-2541
202-739-5353
[e-mail]
For Defendant(s):
FENWICK & WEST LLP
BY: ARMEN NERCESSIAN
ANDREW BRIDGES
Attorneys at Law
555 California Street
12th Floor
San Francisco, California 94104
650-335-7281
[e-mail]

Page 4

APPEARANCES: (Continued):
For California Building Standards Commission and the
Witness:
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
BY: JERRY YEN
Attorney at Law
1300 I Street
Sacramento, California 95814
916-210-7836
[e-mail]
Also Present:
Viana Barbu, Attorney at Law
State of California
Department of General Services
Legal Division
Videographer: John Macdonell

Page 3

Page 5

2 (Pages 2 - 5)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
INDEX
2 WITNESS:
3 MIA D. MARVELLI
4 Volume I
5
6
PAGE
7
Examination By Mr. Nercessian
8
Examination By Ms. Miller-Ziegler
9
Examination By Mr. Nercessian
10
Examination By Ms. Miller-Ziegler
11
Examination By Mr. Nercessian
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

8
160
186
197
199

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sacramento, California, Monday, August 19, 2019
10:04 a.m. - 4:22 p m.
MIA D. MARVELLI,
having been administered an oath, was examined and
testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
THE REPORTER: Good morning, counsel. Do
you want realtime also?
MS. EHLER: Yes.
MR. FEE: No.
10:01
VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're on the
10:01
record. It's 10:04 a m. on August 19th, 2019.
10:04
This is the deposition of Mia Marvelli.
10:04
We're here in the matter of American Society 10:04
for Testing and Materials, et al. versus
10:04
Public.Resource.Org.
10:04
We're located at One Capitol Mall in
10:04
Sacramento, California.
10:04
I'm John Macdonell, the videographer, with 10:04
Veritext. I'm not related to any party in this
10:04
action, nor am I a notary public or financially
10:04
interested.
10:04
Before the reporter swears the witness,
10:04
would counsel please identify themselves.
10:04

Page 6

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

EXHIBITS
DEFENDANT'S
DESCRIPTION
PAGE
Exhibit 1 July 19, 2019 letter to Mia
24
Marvelli from Fenwick & West LLP
Exhibit 2 Marvelli Depo Prep
33
Exhibit 3 Codes
34
Exhibit 4 2019 California Electrical Code
57
Exhibit 5 Subpoena to Testify at a
83
Deposition in a Civil Action
Exhibit 6 March 10, 2016 email to Michael
85
Nearman from Pamela Maeda
Exhibit 7 State of California Standard
107
Agreement
Exhibit 8 August 1, 2016 email to DGS
132
CBSC-Sacramento Staff from Alexander Hunter
Exhibit 9 NCB Coordination Sheet,
141
Department of General Services
Exhibit 10 California Electrical Code
150
Agreement Between and Among BNi
Publications, Inc., Department
of General Services Procurement
Division For California Building
Standards Commission And The
National Fire Protection
25
Association, Inc.

Page 8
1

MR. NERCESSIAN: Yes. I'm Armen Nercessian

2 of Fenwick & West representing Defendant
3 Public.Resource.Org.
4

10:04

10:04

10:04

MR. BRIDGES: Andrew Bridges of

10:04

5 Fenwick & West also representing Public.Resource.Org. 10:04
6

MR. YEN: Jerry Yen with the California

10:05

7 Attorney General's Office representing the witness

10:05

8 and the California Building Standards Commission.
9

10:05

MS. BARBU: Viana Barbu with the Department

10:05

10 of General Services Legal Division representing Mia

10:05

11 Marvelli as Executive Director of Building Standards 10:05
12 Commission.
13

10:05

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Rachel Miller-Ziegler

14 with Munger, Tolles & Olson here on behalf of the
15 National Fire Protection Association.
16

10:05
10:05

10:05

MS. EHLER: And Rose Ehler, also from

10:05

17 Munger, Tolles & Olson, and on behalf of the National 10:05
18 Fire Protection Association.
19

10:05

MR. FEE: Kevin Fee from Morgan Lewis on

20 behalf of ASTM.

10:05

21

10:05

10:05

(Witness sworn)

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:05

23

Q. Good morning.

10:05

24

A. Good morning.

10:05

25

Q. Please state your name for the record.

Page 7

10:05
Page 9

3 (Pages 6 - 9)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. Mia Marvelli.
10:05
Q. Good morning, Ms. Marvelli. Have you ever 10:05
had your deposition taken before?
10:05
A. No.
10:05
Q. Have you ever been involved in any lawsuits 10:05
before?
10:06
A. Yes.
10:06
Q. What was your involvement in previous
10:06
lawsuits?
10:06
A. Respondent.
10:06
Q. In your capacity as a representative of the 10:06
State?
10:06
A. Yes.
10:06
Q. Did you furnish any testimony in any of
10:06
those matters?
10:06
A. A declaration.
10:06
Q. Did you furnish any live testimony?
10:06
A. No.
10:06
Q. So I'll lay out a few preliminaries of how 10:06
today is going to go: I will ask you a series of
10:06
questions. Do you understand that you are giving
10:06
testimony under oath today?
10:06
A. Yes.
10:06
Q. Just as you would in a court of law?
10:06
A. Yes.
10:06

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

take it to mean you were finished. Do you understand 10:07
that?
10:07
A. Yes.
10:07
Q. If you come to realize that any of your
10:07
answers that you previously provided is not
10:07
completely correct, just let me know, and we'll
10:07
address it; okay?
10:07
A. Yes.
10:07
Q. And if you need a break at any time over the 10:07
course of the day, just let me know, and if there is 10:08
a question pending, we can give you the break. Does 10:08
that make sense?
10:08
A. Yes.
10:08
Q. Have you spoken with anyone about your
10:08
testimony today?
10:08
A. No. Just my representation.
10:08
Q. Have you been asked to limit your testimony 10:08
today in any way?
10:08
A. No.
10:08
Q. Is there any reason you would not be able to 10:08
give complete and accurate answers to my questions 10:08
today?
10:08
A. No.
10:08
Q. What did you do to prepare for today's
10:08
deposition?
10:08

Page 10

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. Do you understand that the court reporter is 10:06
1
taking down everything you say?
10:06
2
A. Yes.
10:06
3
Q. Because to establish a record, do you
10:06
4
understand that we need only audible responses such 10:06 5
as a verbal "yes" or "no"?
10:06
6
A. Yes.
10:07
7
Q. If at any point you don't understand a
10:07
8
question, will you please let me know? And I will 10:07 9
try to rephrase.
10:07
10
A. Yes.
10:07
11
Q. If you answer my question without asking for 10:07 12
clarification, I'm going to take it to mean that you 10:07
13
understood it. Is that understood?
10:07
14
A. Yes.
10:07
15
Q. Because the court reporter's taking down
10:07
16
what everyone says, let's not try to talk -- let's 10:07
17
try not to talk over one another. So if I'm asking a 10:07
18
question, please wait for me to finish before you
10:07 19
answer. Do you understand?
10:07
20
A. Yes.
10:07
21
Q. Likewise, if I start to ask you a question 10:07
22
and you weren't allowed to finish, please tell me, 10:07 23
and I'll allow you to finish. If I go on to another 10:07
24
question and you don't say you need more time, I'll 10:07 25

Page 12

A. Read the documents that were provided me.
10:08
Q. Did you review any other documents?
10:08
A. No.
10:08
Q. Did you conduct any research on your own
10:08
into the case?
10:08
A. No.
10:08
Q. Did you conduct any research on your own
10:08
into the subject matter of the documents?
10:08
A. No.
10:08
Q. Did you have any conversations to prepare
10:08
your testimony other than those with your
10:09
representation?
10:09
A. No.
10:09
Q. Are you currently employed?
10:09
A. Yes.
10:09
Q. What's your current employment?
10:09
A. Executive Director of the Building Standards 10:09
Commission.
10:09
Q. And what is the Building Standards
10:09
Commission?
10:09
A. It's a state commission that administers the 10:09
California Building Standards process, and there's 14 10:09
staff, and there's ten commissioners that we support. 10:09
Q. Okay. And when you say you administer the 10:09
process, what does that process entail?
10:09

Page 11

Page 13

4 (Pages 10 - 13)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

1

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

2 law, which is found in the Health and Safety Code,

A. We utilize the California Building Standards 10:09
10:09

2

THE WITNESS: So they're appointed by the

3 and we also use the Administrative Procedures Act,

10:09

3 governor.

4 which is in the Government Code, to administer the

10:09

4

(Discussion off the record)

5

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

6

I'll be objecting sometimes throughout the

5 rulemaking process for -- it's also known as
6 Title 24.
7
9

10:10
10:10

9
10
11

MR. NERCESSIAN: I can rephrase.

10:10

A. It's the 24th title in 28 regulations for

10:10

17 process entail?

10:12

10:12

13

Q. So what role do these commissioners play?

14

10:10

A. They're appointed by the governor, and they

10:10

16 building standards law. There's ten different types 10:12

10:10

18 the governor. For example, one represents building
19 officials.

20 meetings, public comment periods, and then ultimately 10:10

20

21 commission reviews and approves -- I shouldn't say

10:10
10:10

Q. I can strike that.

24
10:11

10:13

10:13

A. I'm not sure what you mean.

23

10:10
10:11

A. They either approve, disapprove, further

Q. Are there any that represent officials that

22

10:13
10:13

Can you provide another example of a type of 10:13

25 commissioner that is appointed by the governor that
Page 14

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

study or -- sorry. There's four actions they can
10:11
1
take.
10:11
2
Q. And it's approve, disapprove, further study 10:11
3
and -10:11
4
A. Or approve as amend. Sorry. I apologize
10:11
5
for talking over you.
10:11
6
Q. Oh. No worries. So the four actions are
10:11
7
approve, amend, disapprove, further action?
10:11
8
A. Approve, approve as amend, further study or 10:11 9
disapprove.
10:11
10
Q. Okay. Oh. I understand. Thank you.
10:11
11
A. Uh-huh.
10:11
12
Q. And you say you interface with ten
10:11
13
commissioners?
10:11
14
A. Uh-huh.
10:11
15
Q. What's the nature of those interactions?
10:11
16
A. Our office supplies them the rulemaking
10:11
17
materials so they can make a determination on the
10:12 18
rulemakings that they're provided.
10:12
19
Q. And who are these commissioners?
10:12
20
A. Do I need to name them all, or how -10:12
21
Q. Functionally, who are they? Are they
10:12
22
commissioners of different State agencies, or are
10:12 23
they all commissioners of one agency and an agency 10:1224
that has multiple commissioners?
10:12
25

10:13

10:13

21 administer electrical systems?

25

10:12

17 of commissioners that are required to be appointed by 10:12

A. We receive rulemaking documents from various 10:10

Q. How does it take action on those

10:12

15 make up the different requirements that is in

19 State agencies, and we conduct public hearings and

24 rulemakings?

10:12

10:10

10:10

22 approve. Takes action on those rulemakings.

10:12
10:12

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:10

Q. And when you say you're responsible for

THE WITNESS: Certainly.

10:12

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Thank you.

16 administering the process, what stages does that

23

10:12

10:12
10:12

Q. And it's Title 24. What law is the Title 24 10:10

14 Regulations, is the whole 28 titles.

18

10:12

8 answering so that I can have a chance to object.

13 California known as the California Code of
15

10:12

7 questioning. If you could just pause before

10:10

A. California Building Standards Code.

11 of?
12

10:10

Q. Title 24. Does Title 24 go by any other

8 names?
10

10:09

10:12
10:12

you interface with?

10:13

A. Sure. Another representative is from the
construction industry, so they're a licensed
contractor.

10:13
10:13

10:13

Q. Okay. So -- and that's still a role

10:13

appointed by the governor?
A. Correct.

10:13
Page 16

10:13
10:13

Q. What authority does the governor make these
appointments under?

10:13

10:14

A. California Building Standards law, which is

10:14

found in Health and Safety Code, and I don't know the 10:14
exact section number.

10:14

Q. Okay. You referred earlier to rulemaking

10:14

materials that you provide to these commissioners.

10:14

What do those rulemaking materials consist of?

10:14

A. Express Terms, Initial Statement of Reasons. 10:14
That's all I can think of right now.

10:14

Q. Okay. So what are Express Terms?

10:14

A. They're the code language and strikeout and

10:14

underline format so that the people can see and the

10:14

commissioners can see what is being proposed by a
State agency.

Q. And what do the commissioners do with those
Express Terms?

10:14

10:15

A. Review them for their technical merit.

Page 15

10:14

10:14

10:15
Page 17

5 (Pages 14 - 17)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. And what action do they take with respect to 10:15
1
those Express Terms?
10:15
2
A. The four that I spoke of earlier.
10:15
3
Q. Okay. Do they open up those Express Terms 10:15 4
for notice and comment with the public?
10:15
5
A. They're presented at a public meeting, so
10:15
6
there's an opportunity at that time for the public to 10:15
7
comment.
10:15
8
Q. And do each of these ten commissioners
10:15
9
conduct separate hearings on the Express Terms that 10:15 10
they've been provided with?
10:15
11
A. No.
10:15
12
Q. Is it just one public hearing that all the 10:15
13
commissioners participate in?
10:15
14
A. Yes.
10:15
15
Q. You also referred to Initial Statement of
10:15
16
Reasons.
10:15
17
A. Uh-huh.
10:15
18
Q. And what is that?
10:16
19
A. It's several statements that are from the
10:16
20
Government Code specific to the Administrative
10:16 21
Procedures Act that discuss the rationale, the
10:16
22
purpose and the reason for a code change, and then 10:16 23
there's a variety of other statements that talk about 10:16
24
the benefit to the State, cost to the State, and
10:16
25

Code. We conduct the public merit meetings, and the 10:18
staff reviews the materials and assembles them for
the public meetings that we conduct.

10:18

10:18

Q. All right. How long have you served in that 10:18
role as executive director?

10:18

A. Approximately three and a half years.

10:18

Q. Since roughly February 2016?
A. Correct.

10:18
10:18

Q. Have you performed any other roles at the
BSC?
A. Yes.

10:18

10:18
10:18

Q. What were those roles?

10:18

A. I was an architectural associate and an

10:18

associate architect, and I was employed with them
since spring of 2012.

10:18

10:18

Q. And what did you do as an architectural
associate?

10:18

10:18

A. Reviewed rulemaking documents, prepared them 10:18
for meetings and the public comment phase.

10:19

Q. And when did you serve in that role? Was
that earlier or after you were an associate
architect?

10:19

10:19

10:19

A. I did that while I was an associate

10:19

architect and an architectural associate.

10:19

Q. Oh. You held those positions

10:19

Page 18
1 that's all I can remember specifically right now
2 without looking at the document.
3

10:16
10:16
10:16

10:16

A. Yes.

10:16

6

Q. Or the BSC?

7

A. Correct.

8

Q. What's the relationship between the Building 10:16
10:16

A. We are a commission within DGS.

12

Q. Does DGS play any independent role in this

10:16

A. No.

15

10:17
10:17

10:17

Q. Do any State agencies play a role in the

19 process of administering Title 24?

10:17
10:17

20

A. No.

21

Q. What are your responsibilities as executive

23

8 after the promotion?
9

A. No.

10:19

10:19
10:19

Q. In that associate role, what role did you

10:19

11 play, if any, in administering the processes related 10:19
12 to the adoption, approval, publication and/or

10:20

MR. NERCESSIAN: I can rephrase.

10:20
10:20

17

10:20

Q. In that role as an architectural associate

18 and associate architect, did you play any role in
20 of the California Building Codes?

10:17
10:17

24 the process is followed, specifically that meeting

10:17

25 notices are supplied according to the Government

10:20
10:20

10:20

21

A. Yes.

22

10:17

A. Oversee staff and the budget, ensure that

10:20

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

19 administering the processes related to the adoption

10:17

10:20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

15

10:17

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as vague.

22 director of BCS -- BSC?

10:19

14

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

Q. Did your responsibilities change at all

13 implementation of the California Building Codes?

Q. Do any other State agencies play a role?

16

10:16

10:16

14

A. No.

10

11

13 rulemaking process?

10:19

7

9 Standards Commission and the California Department of 10:16

10:19
10:19

6

10:16

10:19

Q. Did your role change at all after the

5 promotion?

10:16

10:19

A. Well, I can't remember the exact time I

3 got -- I received a promotion during that time.
4

5

10 General Services?

1 simultaneously?
2

Q. Okay. So the Building Standards Commission

4 is also known as the CBSC; correct?

Page 20

Q. What was that involvement?

23

A. Reviewed documents from State agencies,

10:20

24 prepared meeting materials so that they could be

10:20

10:17
25 publicly viewed.
Page 19

10:20
10:20

10:20
Page 21

6 (Pages 18 - 21)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. And did you play any role in the processes

10:20

2 related to the approval of California's Building
3 Codes?

1 buildings.

10:20

2

10:20

10:23

Q. And by that, do you mean you developed

10:23

3 construction drawings so that they complied with the 10:23

4

A. I'm not sure I understand that question.

5

Q. Do you understand there to be any difference 10:20

10:20

4 California Building Standards Code?
5

A. Yes.

6 between the processes related to the adoption of

10:21

6

7 California's Building Codes and their approval?

10:21

10:23
10:23

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

8

A. I would just say that the process sets up

10:21

8

9 the end game, if you will, for the commission to take 10:21
10 action.
11

10:21
10:21

12 takes action, what is the output of this process?
13
14

A. If the standard --

10:21

10:21

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:21

10:21

Q. You can answer the question.

17

A. Okay. Thanks. If the regulations are

10:24

(Exhibit 1 marked)

10:24
10:24

Q. All right. You've been handed a document

14 this document?
16

10:21

Q. And what is this document?

17

10:21

A. Yes.

A. It's what I was sent a couple weeks ago to

19

10:25
10:25

18 the office.

19 publisher so the publisher can develop the next

10:21

10:22

21
22

A. The current effective code is a 2016

24

10:22

Q. The letter includes as Exhibit A the opinion 10:25

A. Yes.

2

Q. And what edition of the code do those

25

10:22

A. The 2019 edition.

Q. And when does that become effective?

10:22

6

A. January 1st of 2020.

7

Q. Before you were employed by the California

9 experience with the California Building Codes in

10:22

10:23

A. Utilizing them for the design of state

10:23

Q. When did you read this opinion?

8

A. I read part of it when I first received it.

9

Q. Were you aware of this opinion at any point

10:25
10:25
10:26
10:26

10:26

Q. Do you have any knowledge of the dispute

10:26

13 between Public.Resource and the plaintiffs in this

10:23

A. No.

12

10:23

10:26

14 lawsuit?

Q. And what position did you utilize them in?
A. I was an architectural associate for the

10:23

20 the California Building Codes?

10:23
10:23

10:23

Q. You can answer the question.

25

A. For the design and construction of state

10:26

A. Just information that is on the Internet

10:26

19

Q. And so what do you know about the case?
A. Just that there's a dispute between the two

21 groups.
22

10:23

10:26

10:26
10:26

24

A. No.

25

10:23

10:26

Q. Have you had any discussions about this case 10:26

23 at any point?

10:23

10:26

10:26

20

10:23

24

Q. And what is that knowledge?

18 about this particular --

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as outside

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. I have some knowledge.

17

10:23

19 Department of General Services, how did you utilize

10:26

16

10:23

Q. And as an architectural associate at the

10:26

15

10:23

17 Department of General Services.

22 the scope of the subpoena.

A. Not the whole thing.

7

11
10:23

16

21

10:25

10 before you received this letter?

15

18

10:25

Q. Have you read this opinion?

6
10:22

10:25

10:25

5

10:22

8 Building Standards Commission, did you have any

Q. What was that involvement?

10:25

MR. NERCESSIAN: Okay. Your objection is

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:22

10:22

13

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. This hasn't 10:25
Page 24

3 noted.

5

14 buildings.

2

10:22

A. Yes.

10:25

1 been provided to us in the past.
10:22

4

10:25

24 Columbia with respect to this dispute.

10:22

1

12

10:25

23 of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of
10:22
Page 22

11

10:25

A. Yes.

22

10:22

25 revision after the 2016 edition taken place?

10 previous roles?

10:25

21

10:22

Q. And have the rulemaking processes for

3 processes relate to?

10:25

10:25

Q. And this is a letter with respect to the

20 subpoena for this deposition; correct?

Q. And what's the latest edition of the code?

23 edition.

10:24

10:25

15

18 approved by the commission, they're assembled for the 10:21
20 edition of the code.

10:24

13 marked as Exhibit 1. Ms. Marvelli, do you recognize 10:24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

16

Q. Show you a document. We can mark this as

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12

10:23

10:24

9 Exhibit 1.
10

Q. Okay. And when the building commission

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

Q. One of the issues in this case is what

Page 23

10:26
10:26
Page 25

7 (Pages 22 - 25)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 copyright protection there is and standards that are 10:26

1

Q. What do you understand the difference to be? 10:29

2 incorporated into other law. Are you familiar with

2

A. Well, there's the reference standards, which 10:29

10:26

3 standards that standard development organizations put 10:26

3 are very detail-oriented, and then there is the code 10:30

4 out?

4 developers where the reference standards are referred 10:30

5

10:27
MR. FEE: Objection to form.

10:27

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
7

5 to.

10:27

6

Q. Have you had any involvement with standards

8 in -- over the course of your employment at the

10:27

10:27

9 Building Standards Commission?
A. I'm sorry, I'm not following that question.

11

Q. In your role at the Building Standards

13 standards?
14

10

10:27
10:27

A. I have familiarity.

10:30

Q. And what's that experience with the

10:30
10:30

A. That they're referenced in the model codes

13 that California is required to adopt.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

10:27

10:27

16

Q. You can answer the question.

17

A. I don't know what you mean by "interacted."

18

Q. Have you taken any actions with -- have you

19 reviewed any industry standards in your role?

10:30

10:30

Q. And why is California required to adopt

10:30

10:30

16

A. That's part of our building standards law.

10:27

17

Q. What does the Building Standards Commission

10:27

18 do with those reference codes?

10:27

20

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

21

THE WITNESS: I guess I don't know what you

19

10:27

10:30

10:27

10:30

25 role at the Building Standards Commission?

10:28

21

Q. What -- I can rephrase.
A. Okay.

23

10:27

10:30

10:31

22

Q. Have you read any industry standards in your 10:27

10:30

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:27

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

14

15 those model codes?

10:27

22 mean by "reviewed."

12

10:30

10:30

11 reference standards that you have?

10:27

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

24

9

10:27

12 Commission, have you interacted with any industry

10:30

7 reference standards from your employment at the
8 Building Standards Commission?

10:27

10

10:30

Q. So do you have any familiarity with

10:31

Q. What actions does the Building Standards

10:31
10:31

24 Commission take, if any, with respect to those
25 reference codes?

10:31

10:31

Page 26
1

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

10:28

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Page 28
1

10:28

A. They take the same action that they do with

3

Q. You can answer.

10:28

3

4

A. I'm not following that.

10:28

5

Q. So what is it about my question that you

10:31

4 those four actions, approve as amended.

6 don't understand? I can rephrase.
7

10:28

9 standards in general.
10

10:31

A. Okay.

Q. When the Building Standards Commission

8 mean?

10:28

9
10:28

11 reviewed any industry standards over the course of

10:31
10:31

7 approves as amend a reference code, what does that

10:28

Q. Just standards in general. Have you ever

10:31

6

10:28

8 specific about a certain standard or just the

Q. Okay. So then I'd like to discuss one of

5

10:28

A. I guess I'm trying to understand if it's

10:31

2 the model codes, the four we spoke of earlier.

A. They may be approving a change from what was 10:31

10 proposed.

10:28

10:31

10:31
10:32

11

Q. And why might it take those actions?

10:32

12 your employment at the Building Standards Commission? 10:28

12

A. There could be a reason based on the

10:32

13

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

13 nine-point criteria that they need to take a

14

THE WITNESS: I suppose I have, but I

10:28
10:28
10:28

15 couldn't tell you specifics on what that would be.
16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
17

15

10:28

Q. Have you had any interactions with standard

10:29

19 employment at the Building Standards Commission?
A. Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.

21

Q. Have you had any interactions with standard

10:29

10:29

23 employment at the Building Standards Commission?
24

A. I think I'm trying to understand the

10:29

10:29
10:29

10:32

10:32

A. It's the basis in which the State agencies

10:32

18 state that they're -- the building standards may be

10:32

19 approved, and it's in 18930, I believe, of the Health 10:32
20 and Safety Code.

10:29

22 development organizations over the course of your

17

10:32

Q. What is this nine-point criteria you're

16 referring to?

10:29

18 development organizations over the course of your
20

10:32

14 different action, then approve.

10:32

21

Q. And what are those nine criteria?

22

A. I'll do my best. There's -- one of them is

10:32
10:32

23 they cannot conflict, overlap or duplicate another

10:33

24 code, arbitrary and capricious, they have to meet -- 10:33

25 difference between standards and the code developers. 10:29
25 they can't violate fire life safety as prescribed -- 10:33
Page 27

Page 29

8 (Pages 26 - 29)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 or as determined by the State Fire Marshal. I can't 10:33

1 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

2 think of them all at the moment.

2

3

10:33

Q. And if one of these criteria is met, then

10:33

6 adoption; is that correct?

10:33
10:33

10:33

7

A. If one of the criteria is not met, yes.

8

Q. If one of the criteria is not met?

9

A. Yeah.

10:36

3

4 the California Building Standards Commission may
5 recommend amending a reference standard in its

10:36

Q. In what cases?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.

10:36

4

THE WITNESS: That's too broad of a

5 question. I don't --

10:36

10:36

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:33

7

10:33

10:36

Q. In what cases would a person not have to

10:36

8 refer to separate reference standard?

10:33

10:36
10:36

9

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

10

Q. What happens if all of the criteria are met? 10:33

10

MR. YEN: You can answer --

11

A. I didn't hear you.

11

THE WITNESS: Okay.

10:33

10:36
10:36

12

Q. What happens if all of the criteria are met? 10:33

12

MR. YEN: -- if you understand the question. 10:36

13

A. Generally the commission approves the

13

THE WITNESS: There's instances where part

14 package.
15

10:34

10:34

14 of the reference standard is in -- reprinted or in

Q. And where the commission chooses to amend a

10:34

10:36

10:37

15 the code, but I couldn't give you specifics.

10:37

16 reference standard in its adoption, how does the

10:34

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:37

17 commission accomplish that incorporation?

10:34

17

18

MR. FEE: Objection. Form.

19

10:34

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:34

10:37

19 the code, do you mean that they appear within the

10:34

20 body of the California code as printed?

10:34

21

21

Q. Do you understand the question?

22

A. No.

23

Q. Does the commission incorporate by reference 10:34

10:34

24 any reference standards?
25

10:37

18 parts of a reference standard are reprinted within

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

Q. When you say that there are instances that

A. Yes.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as leading.

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:34

10:37

10:37

23

Q. You can answer.

24

10:34

10:37

10:37

A. Again, I don't have the code in front of me

10:37

25 to be able to give you that answer.

10:37

10:37

Page 30
1

Q. What does that mean? What -- strike that.

2

So the way you're using "incorporate by

10:34

Page 32
1

10:35

Q. Okay. In that case, we can mark this next

2 in order.

10:37

10:38

3 reference," what does it mean to you?

10:35

3

(Exhibit 2 marked)

4

A. It would be part of the model code.

10:35

4

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Where is this from?

5

Q. So that's the incorporation.

5

MR. NERCESSIAN: This is from the Internet

6

A. Uh-huh.

7

Q. But does the code incorporate the standard

10:35
10:35

6 archive.

8 by referencing a reference standard?

10:35

7

10:35

9

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

10:35

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?

10:35

12

10:35

Q. Yes. Does the code incorporate a reference

13 standard by referencing that standard?
14

A. Yes.

15

Q. How does it reference it?

16

13

10:35

15

10:36

Q. You can answer.

A. There's a number that is referenced in the

20 model code to the reference standard.

18
10:36

22 Building Standards Code, do they have to refer to
24

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

25

THE WITNESS: In some cases, yes.

20

10:36

10:39

10:39

MR. NERCESSIAN: No. There was a PDF linked 10:39
10:39

10:39

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: We'll object to the

19 unauthorized copy then.

10:36

Q. So if somebody is reading the California

23 another reference code to understand it?

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: There's no other front

17 on the front that you see.

10:36

10:39

10:39

16 directly there. There is the notation that appears

10:36

19

10:39

MR. NERCESSIAN: It's just the PDF that's

14 matter that's associated with it?

18

10:39

9 they're from the Internet archive which this doesn't 10:39

12 available on the Internet archive.

10:35

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

21

10:39

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Generally the Internet

10 have. Has this been modified?
11

10:35

10:35

MR. FEE: Object to the form.

10:38
10:39

8 archive versions have some annotation indicating that 10:39

10

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:38

10:39

10:39

MR. FEE: You obviously put cover sheets on

10:39

21 this, too? You're not claiming that this cover sheet 10:39

10:36

10:36

22 was part of the archive?
23

10:36

10:39

MR. NERCESSIAN: No, not claiming the cover

24 sheet was part of it. That's just to break it up.

10:36

25

MR. FEE: I object to that as well.

Page 31

10:39

10:39
10:39
Page 33

9 (Pages 30 - 33)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: We'll also object to
10:40 1
the authenticity of this.
10:40
2
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:40
3
Q. All right. Ms. Marvelli, are you familiar 10:40
4
with this document?
10:40
5
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
10:40
6
THE WITNESS: Nope.
10:40
7
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:40
8
Q. Does it appear to -- well, what makes you
10:40
9
say that?
10:40
10
A. Well, there's information that is not part 10:40
11
of what we publish as a California Electrical Code on 10:40 12
the cover.
10:40
13
Q. I represent -- okay. So this is deposition 10:40
14
Exhibit Number 2, and what's the information on the 10:41 15
cover that you -- the annotations -- strike that.
10:42
16
We can mark this next in order.
10:42
17
(Exhibit 3 marked)
10:42
18
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:42
19
Q. All right. You have been handed an exhibit 10:42 20
marked for identification as Deposition Exhibit 3. 10:43 21
Do you recognize this document?
10:43
22
A. It appears as though it's a print of our web 10:43
23
page -- or code's web page.
10:43
24
Q. And what does the California Building
10:43
25

Q. And previously, you testified that it goes 10:45
into effect January 1st, 2020?
10:45
A. Correct.
10:45
Q. Until the 2019 edition goes into effect, the 10:45
2016 California Building Standards Code will be the 10:45
law; correct?
10:45
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
10:45
THE WITNESS: Yes.
10:45
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:45
Q. And the 2016 California Building Code will 10:45
be effective until the 2019 edition goes into effect; 10:45
correct?
A. Yes.
10:46
Q. How many parts does the 2019 triennial
10:46
edition of Title 24 have?
10:46
A. Thirteen.
10:46
Q. Does each part pertain to a different
10:46
subject matter?
10:46
A. Yes.
10:46
Q. So, for instance, Part 1 is the California 10:46
Administrative Code; correct?
10:46
A. Yes.
10:46
Q. And Part 3 is the California Electrical
10:46
Code; correct?
10:46
A. Correct.
10:46

Page 34
1 Commission display on the code's web page on its
2 site?

10:43

10:43

3

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

4

THE WITNESS: The 12 parts of Title 24.

10:43
10:43

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:43

6

Q. How often does CBSC issue a new Title 24?

7

A. Triennially, every three years, but we also

10:43

10:43

8 could have emergencies change without regulatory

10:43

9 effect or an intervening supplement which would amend 10:44
10 any edition of the code.
11

10:44

Q. And you'll note, if you look at the bottom

10:44

12 of the page, there's a URL there. Can you read that 10:44
13 URL, please?

10:44

14

A. Sure. Https://www.dgs.ca.gov/BSC/Codes.

15

Q. Thank you. And that's a website that's

16 administered by the State; is that correct?

10:44

10:44
10:45

17

A. Yes.

18

Q. And the "DGS" in that subdomain stands for

10:45

19 the Department of General Services; correct?
20

A. Yes.

21

Q. And what does the "BSC" stand for?

22

A. Building Standards Commission.

23

Q. When was the 2019 edition of Title 24

24 published?
25

10:45
10:45

10:45
10:45
10:45
10:45

10:45

A. On or around July 1st of this year.

10:45

Page 36

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. Does CBSC currently host any parts of the
10:46
2016 triennial edition of the California Building
10:46
Standards Code on the BSC website?
10:46
A. I don't know what you mean by "host."
10:46
Q. By "host," I mean does it store an
10:46
accessible version of the code on the BSC website? 10:47
A. No. I believe it's all -- points to the
10:47
model code publisher.
10:47
Q. And CBSC does not currently host any parts 10:47
for any edition of the California Building Standards 10:47
Code on the BSC website; correct?
10:47
A. I'm not certain of that.
10:47
Q. On the second page of this exhibit, there's 10:47
a heading that reads "2016 Triennial Edition of
10:47
Title 24."
10:47
A. Uh-huh.
10:47
Q. Does CBSC currently host a complete edition 10:47
of the 2016 version of Title 24 on the BSC website? 10:47
A. It points to the model code developers much 10:48
like the '19 code.
10:48
Q. And that's the same for the 2013 edition;
10:48
correct?
A. Correct.
10:48
Q. This web page also, in a section marked
10:48
"Purchase the Codes," directs the user to public
10:48

Page 35

Page 37

10 (Pages 34 - 37)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 code -- strike that.
2

10:48

In a section called "Purchase the Codes,"

10:48

3 similarly, the website directs the user to the

10:48

4 publisher's websites; correct?

10:48

5

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as leading.

6

THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
8

10:48

Q. One of those publishers is the International 10:48

9 Code Council?

10:48

10

A. Yes.

11

10:49

Q. And what parts is the International Code

10:49

12 Council responsible for publishing?
13

10:48

10:48

10:49

A. It's listed here on the web page. Would you 10:49

14 like me to read them all or --

10:49

15

Q. No.

10:49

16

A. Okay.

17

Q. And the web page lists the parts that are

10:49
10:49

18 available through each publisher; correct?
19

A. Yes.

20

10:49

10:49

Q. Does the State of California, to your

10:49

21 knowledge, make the full text of the California

10:49

22 Building Standards Code available to the public?
23

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

24

THE WITNESS: Yes.

10:49

10:49
10:49

25 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:49

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

MR. YEN: I just wanted to clarify that you 10:50
weren't just referring to the commission.
10:50
MR. NERCESSIAN: No.
10:50
MR. YEN: Okay.
10:50
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10:50
Q. All right. On the third page of the
10:50
exhibit, there's a -- under a heading that says
10:50
"California Building Standards Code," there's a
10:50
description that reads "The California Building
10:50
Standards Code is a compilation of three types of
10:50
building standards from different origins."
10:50
What are the sources of the California
10:51
Building Standards Code?
10:51
A. California amendments which are proposed by 10:51
State agencies, the model codes that California is 10:51
required by law to adopt. That's two kinds. It's a 10:51
blend.
10:52
Q. So this statement identifies three.
10:52
A. Uh-huh.
10:52
Q. What makes you -- so -- and we discussed two 10:52
kinds. Is there not a third?
10:52
A. I'd have to read this because I'm not
10:52
understanding what -- that have been adopted by State 10:52
without change. Okay, I get it. We recently went 10:52
through a web page change, so I needed to read this 10:52

Page 38
1

Q. How?

1 because I haven't read this yet.

10:49

2

MR. FEE: Same objection.

3

10:49

6
7

Q. Linked at pages hosted by the publisher --

10:53

3

A. So I guess I understand why they're saying

10:50

6 model codes, and then there's building standards -7 standard, excuse me, that have been adopted and

10:53

9 California's needs, which is what I talked about,

10:50

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as leading.

11

THE WITNESS: Correct.

12

MR. YEN: Armen, I just want to clarify

10:50

10:50

13 codes.
14

15 California government, or are you just referring to

15 referred to here in this blurb are accurate?

10:50

16 the Building Standards Commission? Because --

10:53

10:53

14 California, are you referring to the entire State of 10:50
10:50

MR. NERCESSIAN: I was asking to her

10:53

12 constitutes amendments not covered by national model 10:53

10:50

13 something. When you're referring to the State of

10:53

10 California amendments, and then there's building
11 standards authorized by California legislature that

10:50

10:50

Q. Got it. So you think these three categories 10:53

16

A. Yes.

17

10:53

10:53

Q. It goes on to read that "All occupancies in

10:53

18 knowledge, is she aware that the State of California 10:50

18 California are subject to national model codes

19 publishes.

19 adopted into Title 24." Do you see that language?

10:50

10:54

20

A. Yes.

21 not just the Building Standards Commission? So --

10:50

21

Q. When the website says that Title -- the

22

10:50

22 national model codes adopted into Title 24 adopt --

20

MR. YEN: So the entire State of California, 10:50
MR. NERCESSIAN: Not just the Building

23 Standards Commission.

10:50

23 strike that.
24

24

MR. YEN: All right.

10:50

25

MR. NERCESSIAN: But just to her knowledge.

10:53
10:53

8 adapted from national model codes to address

10:50

10

17

10:53

5 adopted by the State without change, and they contain 10:53

10:49

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
Q. -- correct?

Q. Okay.

4 three. So there's building standards that have been 10:53
10:49

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
9

10:49

10:49

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:52

2

THE WITNESS: It's viewable on our website

4 through the publisher.

Page 40

10:54

10:54
10:54
10:54

10:54

When the website says that the national

25 model codes adopted into Title 24 apply to all
10:50
Page 39

10:54
10:54
Page 41

11 (Pages 38 - 41)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 occupancies in California, do they apply to
2 residences?

10:54

2 Electrical Code based on?

3

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

4

THE WITNESS: Yes.

A. Yes.

8

Q. Do they apply to schools?

9

A. Yes.

4

THE WITNESS: The 2014 electrical code.

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
6

10:54
10:54

Q. So you described that standard as NFPA 70.

10:57

10:57

A. National Fire Protection Association.

10:57

9
10:54

Q. Is that the same National Fire Protection

10:57

10 Association that is a named plaintiff in this case?

10:54

A. Yes.

10:56

8

10:54

11 Title 24 apply to hospitals?

10:56

10:56

7 What does "NFPA" stand for?

Q. Do the national model codes adopted into

13

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

10:54

Q. Do they apply to office buildings?

7

10:56
10:56

3

10:54

6

12

10:54

10:54

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10

1 Code was the 2016 version of the California

10:54

11
12

10:54

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:54

10:55

MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.

15

Q. Do they apply to government buildings?

10:55

16

A. Yes.

17

Q. Are there any occupancies in California that 10:55

10:57

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
14

10:57

10:57
10:57

Q. Can you describe how the CBSC developed the

15 2019 edition of the California Electrical Code?

10:55

16

A. Yes.

17

Q. Please do.

18 the national model codes adopted into Title 24 do not 10:55

18

A. Okay. Again, state law requires the State

19 apply to?

19 agencies to adopt the most recent edition of model

10:55

20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

21

THE WITNESS: I don't have an answer for

22 that.

10:55

10:55
10:55

Q. Because it applies to all occupancies in

25 California; correct?

10:57
10:57
10:57

20 codes, and in the case of the electrical code, it

10:57

10:57

21 would be the 2017 National Electrical Code. The

10:57

22 State agencies carry forward existing amendments in

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
24

10:55

10:57

10:57

23 some cases from the previous edition.

10:55

24

10:55

10:58

10:58

They may make amendments to the new edition

25 that they're looking at. They may have pre-cycle

10:58

10:58

Page 42
1

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

2

THE WITNESS: Yes.

10:55

10:55

Page 44
1 workshops to vet any changes that are necessary.

10:58

2 Then their rulemaking documents are submitted to the 10:58

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

10:55

3 Building Standards Commission staff, and they are -- 10:58

4

10:55

4 those files are reviewed for compliance with the

Q. So we established earlier that Part 3 of

5 Title 24 is the California Electrical Code. What

10:55

6 sources is the California Electrical Code based on?

10:58

5 Administrative Procedures Act and the building

10:55

6 standards law.

10:58

10:58

7

A. NFPA 70 --

10:55

7

8

Q. NFPA 70.

10:55

8 code advisory committee, and that committee is made

9

A. -- and California amendments.

10

10:56

Q. And NFPA 70 is also known as the National

11 Electrical Code?

10:56

10:56
10:56

10 paid by the State other than their per diem to

13

Q. What version of the National Electrical Code 10:56

12 changes and adoption of the code.
13

10:56

10:59
10:59

10:59

They provide a recommendation at a public

10:59

14 meeting to the State agency and also the public, and 10:59

What version of the National Electrical Code 10:56

15 that recommendation is considered by the State

10:59

16 is the 2019 version of the California Electrical Code 10:56

16 agency, and the State agency may make additional

17 based on?

17 changes to their proposed code changes.

10:56

18

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

19

MR. YEN: You can answer if you know.

20

THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.

21

MR. YEN: If you understand.

22

THE WITNESS: The 2017 National Electrical

23 Code.
24 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
25

10:58

10:59

11 participate in the technical review of the proposed

A. Yes.

15

10:58

9 up of technical experts in the field. They're not

12

14 are the 2019 -- strike that.

They're then assembled for what's called a

10:56
10:56

18

The Building Standards Commission then

10:59

19 assembles that material and puts it out for a 45-day 10:59

10:56

20 comment period which is noticed in the Office of

10:56

10:59

21 Administrative Law's notice registry. There may be
10:56

10:56

22 additional comments if necessary.
23

10:59

10:59

10:56

The State agencies respond to any comments

10:59

24 in their Final Statement of Reasons, and the Final

10:56

Q. And what version of the National Electrical

10:59

10:59

11:00

25 Statement of Reason and the Final Express Terms and
Page 43

11:00
Page 45

12 (Pages 42 - 45)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 other rulemaking documents are presented to the

11:00

2 commission at a public meeting where the commission

11:00

1 by State agencies, the timing -- strike that. Not

11:03

2 the timing. The initial submittal rulemaking

11:03

3 takes action on the rulemaking package.

11:00

3 documents that are required to be submitted, the

4

11:00

4 actions that can be taken by the commission. That's 11:03

Q. Got it. And it is the commission that has

5 the final say on what language ultimately makes it

11:00

6 into the version of the California Electrical Code?

11:00

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

8

THE WITNESS: The commission looks at all of 11:00

11:00

9 the public comments that were considered, the

11:00

10 Statement of Reasons, and they rely on the
12 is all weighed, and as long as it meets the
14 on the package to approve it.

7 governing California state administrative processes; 11:03
8 correct?

11:03

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.
MR. FEE: Object to form.

11

11:00

13 nine-point criteria, the commission may take action

11:03

10

11:00
11:00

11:03

THE WITNESS: Not sure I follow that

12 question.

11:00

11:03

Q. And all those rules are directed at

9

11:00

11 determination of the State agency as well, and that

5 what I can remember off the top of my head.
6

7

11:03

11:03
11:03

11:03

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
14

11:03

Q. I can rephrase. Who is the audience for

11:03

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:01

15 Part 1 of Title 24?

16

11:01

16

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

17

THE WITNESS: That code, administrative code 11:04

Q. And that's the nine-point criteria you

17 referred to earlier where if one of the criteria is

11:01

18 not met, there might be reason for an amendment;
19 correct?

11:01

11:01

11:04

18 is available for anybody, so it's the public, it

11:04

19 could be State agencies, it could be code advisory

20

A. Possibly, yes.

11:01

21

Q. You referred to -- in this to there being a

22 code advisory committee.

11:04

11:04

20 committee members, it could be the commission.
11:01

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:01

11:04

11:04

A. Uh-huh. Yes. Sorry.

24

Q. Where does that advisory committee reside?

11:01

25

A. It's assembled every two years for each

11:01

11:01

Q. Got it.

23

23

22

11:04

A. Uh-huh. Could we take a break for a couple

24 minutes? Would that be okay?
25

11:04

11:04

Q. There's no question pending, so okay.

11:04

Page 46
1 triennial coded option, and a call for application

Page 48
1 1

11:01

2

2 goes out by the Building Standards Commission staff, 11:01
3 and it's very specific in the member makeup of each

11:01

4 code advisory committee, and that's laid out in the
6 Title 24, and each of -- each committee has

11:04

VIDEO OPERATOR: We're off the record. It's 11:04

2

11:04

3

.

3 11:04

11:01

5 California Administrative Code, which is Part 1 of

A. Okay. Pause for a minute.

11:01

4 4

(Recess)

5 5

11:01

VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're back on the

7 approximately nine members, and they are selected by 11:01

6 6 record. It's 11:22.

8 the commission every two years, and then those code

11:04

7 7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

9 advisory committees serve for the three-year term,
10 and so they're a mix of technical experts in the
11 field.
12

11:02
11:02

11:02

11:02

14 lays out the rules that the agencies must follow for 11:02
15 the rulemaking process?

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Leading.

17

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

19

A. Uh-huh.

23
25

12 12

A. I don't know.

13 13

Q. In what context have you heard the term,

11:22
11:22

15 15

A. Through local ordinances and through the

16 16 codes.

11:22

11:22

Q. How were they used through the codes when

11:22

THE WITNESS: Just referenced in the code.

22 22
11:02

24 24 codes, means?

11:03

25 25

11:22
11:22

11:22

Q. Do you have any understanding of what the

23 23 term "incorporation by adoption," as used in the

11:03

11:22

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

20 20

11:02

A. Appeals and petitions, pre-cycle activities

11:22

11:22

21 21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Q. What procedures does the California

24 Administrative Code govern?

11:22

19 19

11:02

11:02

22

Q. And what does that term mean?

18 18 you heard the term "incorporation by adoption"?

11:02

20 Title 24 constitutes the California Administrative

A. Yes.

17 17

11:02

Q. So you testified earlier that Part 1 of

21 Code; correct?

11:02

11:02

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:22

11:22

14 14 "incorporation by adoption"?

11:02

16

9 9 "incorporation by adoption"?
11 11

11:02

13 constitutes the California Administrative Code then

11:21

Q. Ms. Marvelli, have you heard of the term

10 10

11:02

Q. Okay. And Part 1 of Title 24 which

8 8

11:21

11:21

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

Page 47

11:22
11:22

11:22
11:23
Page 49

13 (Pages 46 - 49)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

THE WITNESS: Just referenced in the code

2 that's adopted by California. That's all.

11:23

11:23

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:23

4

Q. In what context does the code use it?

5

A. I don't know.

6

11:23

Q. Are you familiar with the term

11:23
11:23

7 "incorporation by reference"?

11:23

8

A. Yes.

11:23

9

Q. And what's your understanding of that term?

10

A. Referenced in the code.

11

11:23

11:23

Q. So do you understand that "incorporation by

11:23

12 adoption" and "incorporation by reference" have the
13 same meaning?

11:23

11:23

14

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Leading.

15

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
17

11:23

11:23
11:24

Q. Do you understand -- do you have any

11:24

18 understanding of how the meaning of "incorporation by 11:24
19 reference" may differ from "incorporation by
20 adoption"?
21

11:24

11:24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. This calls

11:24

22 for a legal conclusion. It's also outside the scope 11:24
23 of the subpoena.
24

11:24

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't have an answer

25 for you. I don't know.

11:24

11:24

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

MR. FEE: Objection to form.
11:25
THE WITNESS: Yes.
11:25
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:25
Q. Does the State make, to your knowledge -11:25
strike that.
11:25
To your knowledge, does the State of
11:25
California make the text of the California Electrical 11:25
Code available to the public in any way other than by 11:26
referring it to the publisher?
11:26
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Object to form.
11:26
MR. YEN: Again, you keep using the "State 11:26
of California," so you're saying the entire State of 11:26
California, not just the commission; right? I just 11:26
want to be clear when you -11:26
MR. NERCESSIAN: I'm asking to her
11:26
knowledge.
11:26
MR. YEN: Okay. For the entire state?
11:26
MR. NERCESSIAN: For the entire state.
11:26
MR. YEN: Okay.
11:26
THE WITNESS: The Building Standards
11:26
Commission makes available on its website a link to 11:26
the model code. The State of California, there's a 11:26
reference in building standards law that says local 11:26
jurisdictions need to make available the building
11:26
codes, all of the building codes publicly at their 11:26

Page 50
1 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
2

Page 52
1 office as well, a printed version if you will.

11:26

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:24

Q. But your understanding is that incorporation 11:24

11:26

3 by reference has been used in the codes in -- strike 11:24

3

4 that.

4 California Electrical Code?

5

11:24
Is it your understanding that incorporation

6 by reference applies when California law references
7 reference standards such as the National Electrical
8 Code?
9
10

16

9

11:27

11:27

Did the NFPA serve any role with respect to
MR. FEE: Objection. Form.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's vague. 11:27

11:27

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:27

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:25

11:27

15

11:25
11:25

11:25

Q. What is BNi?

16

11:25

18 Standards Code available to the public by referring

A. I don't know the full name. I know them as

11:27

17 BNi, is the publisher for the 2016 electrical code.

11:27

18

11:27

Q. Do you know anything about the entity BNi if 11:28

19 the public to the publisher; is that correct? Do you 11:25

19 not the full name?

20 recall that testimony?

20

A. No, I don't.

21

Q. You understand that they publish the 2016

22

A. Yes.

11:25
11:25

MR. FEE: Objection. Form.

24

25 Electrical Code?

11:28

11:25
Page 51

A. Yes.

24

11:25

11:28

11:28

23

11:25

Q. Is the same true for the California

11:28

22 California Electrical Code?

11:25

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:27

13

11:25

Q. You said that the State of California makes

17 Standards Commission makes the California Building

21

11:27

10 the 2016 edition of the California Electrical Code?
12

11:25

You testified earlier that the Building

11:27

Q. With respect to the 2016 edition, was --

11

11:25

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.

15 California build the -- strike that.

A. The 2016 edition, the publisher was BNi, and 11:27

8 strike that.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 11:25

11:26

11:27

6 for the 2019 edition, the publisher was NFPA.
7

11:25

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
14

11:24
11:24

11:25

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

11 legal conclusion.
12

5

11:24

Q. And who is the publisher in the case of the

Q. Did anybody else, any other entity publish

11:28
11:28

25 the 2016 electrical code, California Electrical Code? 11:28
Page 53

14 (Pages 50 - 53)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

A. Not that I -- I don't know.

2

Q. To your knowledge, there is no other

11:28

1
11:28

Q. Do you know whether the public has full

11:31

2 access to the text of the 2016 California Electrical 11:31

3 publisher of the California Electrical Code, the 2016 11:28

3 Code without payment?

4 edition, other than BNi?

4

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

5

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

5

11:28

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That

6 misstates her testimony.
7

11:28

11:28

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:28

7

Q. Okay. So you're not aware of any other

11:28

11 other than BNi?

Q. I can rephrase. Do you know whether BNi

10

11:29

13

Q. Do you know how BNi makes the 2016

11:29

14 electrical code available to the public?

11:29

15

A. Via the website or by purchasing.

16

Q. When you say it makes it available via the

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

11:32

THE WITNESS: I don't know that.

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:32

11:29

Q. You don't know one way or the other?

15

A. Huh-uh.

16

11:29

18

THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.

19

MR. YEN: -- not just nodding the head.

20 to their website.

20

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

21

Q. And for the 2016 edition that we're

11:29

22

23

A. I don't know.

24

Q. Do you know of any restrictions that appear

11:29

11:30

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

3

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?

11:30

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:30

11:30

Q. Are you aware of any restrictions on the

11:30

6 website accessible through the link for the 2016

11:30

7 electrical code as it appears on the BSC website?

11:30

8

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

9

THE WITNESS: No.

11:30
11:30

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11

11:30

Q. Is it possible that there are restrictions

11:30

12 on the website access through the link that appears

11:30

13 on the BSC website for the 2016 electrical code?

11:30

14

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:30

15

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lacks

16 foundation as well.

11:30

11:30

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

11:31

Q. Do you know whether the public has full

11:31

19 access to the text of the 2016 California Electrical 11:31
20 Code without payment?

11:31

21

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

22

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

23

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Repeat the

24 question again.
25 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:32

Q. All right. So when I asked, "You don't know 11:32

24 you don't know one way or another; correct?

11:30
25
Page 54

2

5

11:32
11:32

23 one way or another?" your answer was confirming that 11:32
11:29

25 on the website access through the link for the 2016

1 California Electrical Code?

11:32

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:29

22 discussing, that links to a BNi website?

11:32

11:32

19 Building Standards Commission's link on their website 11:29
11:29

11:32

11:32

MR. YEN: So just when you're answering

17 questions, verbal, not --

11:29

11:32

11:32

14

11:29

A. The one I'm aware of is the California

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

11
12

A. Correct.

17 website, what website is that?

11:31
11:31

9 the 2016 California Electrical Code without payment? 11:32

11:28

11:28

12

11:31

11:31

8 provides the public with full access to the text of

10 publisher of the 2016 California Electrical Code

18

11:31

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
9

11:31

11:31
11:31
11:31

11:31
11:31

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. I don't know what BNi offers.

11:32
11:32
Page 56

Q. Does anybody in your office know what BNi
11:32
offers?
11:32
MR. FEE: Objection to form, calls for
11:32
speculation.
11:32
THE WITNESS: I don't know that. I wouldn't 11:32
know that.
11:32
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:32
Q. Do you know whether BNi is a commercial for 11:33
profit publisher?
11:33
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
11:33
THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
11:33
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:33
Q. Do you know one way or another?
11:33
MR. FEE: Same objection.
11:33
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Object to form.
11:33
THE WITNESS: I'll change my answer to no. 11:33
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:33
Q. So you don't know whether BNi is a
11:33
commercial for profit publisher?
11:33
A. I don't know that.
11:33
Q. We can mark this next in order.
11:34
(Exhibit 4 marked)
11:34
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:34
Q. Ms. Marvelli, I've handed you a document
11:34
that's been marked for identification as Exhibit 4. 11:34

Page 55

Page 57

15 (Pages 54 - 57)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 Do you recognize this document?
2

A.

11:34

I've not seen this print before, but it

1 other?

11:34

2

11:37

A. No, I'm not aware. I'm not aware. I don't

3 appears to be the California Electrical Code, the '19 11:35

3 know.

4 edition.

4

5

11:35

Q. And the URL for this link has the domain

6 nfpa.org; correct?

11:35

A. Yes.

8

6

Q. Is that NFPA the same as the named

11:35

9 plaintiffs in this lawsuit, the named plaintiff?
11

MR. YEN: Hold on a second.

12

If you need clarification, you can ask him

11:37

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

12

11:35

11:37

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:37
11:37

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:35

11:35

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:37

11:37

11

11:35

THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, I

11:37

11:37

Q. Are you aware whether anyone can copy text

10 Electrical Code?

11:35

14

11:37

Q. Do you know whether someone can search the

15 text of the 2019 California Electrical Code on the

11:35

16 NFPA viewer?

Q. Do you know what the domain nfpa.org -- who

18 owns it, who runs it?

A. I have not attempted to print the '19

9 from the NFPA viewer for the 2019 California

11:35

15 guess I need clarification.
17

8

11:35

MR. FEE: Object to form.

14

11:37

7 electrical code from the viewer.
11:35

10

13 for clarification.

Q. Have you ever attempted to print the

5 California Electrical Code from the NFPA viewer?

11:35

7

11:37

11:37

11:35

11:38

11:35

17

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

18

11:35

11:38

THE WITNESS: I don't know actually. I

11:38

19

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

20

THE WITNESS: NFPA, so --

21

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:36

21

22

THE WITNESS: Yeah, it does, yeah.

22 the California Electrical Code for the year 2019 on

11:36

Q. Do you have any experience with accessing

25 any web pages at nfpa.org?

11:38

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:36

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
24

19 don't know.

11:35

11:38

Q. And the BSC website links to a version of

23 the NFPA viewer; correct?

11:36

11:38
11:38

11:38

24

A. Yes.

25

11:36

11:38

11:38

11:38

Q. It links to this, the website reflected in

11:38

Page 58
1

A. Yes.

2

Q. Have you accessed the 2019 California

11:36

1 this document; correct?
11:36

3 Electrical Code through nfpa.org?
4

A. Yes.

5

Q. Do you have any familiarity with the NFPA

11:36

4
11:36
11:36

11:36

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

9

THE WITNESS: I have familiarity, yes.

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
Q. In light of that experience, are the

15

11:36
11:36

17

11:37

A. Yes.

11:37

20

Q. Are you aware whether you can print the code 11:37

22

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

23

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware, no.

25

11:39

Q. Have you ever tried copying text from the

Q. Can you? Are you aware one way or the

11:39

18 California Electrical Code on the NFPA viewer?
A. No.

20

Q. I'd like to refer you to the second page,

11:39

11:39
11:39

21 and here on the second page, there's language stating 11:39

11:37

24 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:39

11:39

19
11:37

11:38

11:39

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

19

21 from the NFPA viewer?

11:38

THE WITNESS: I don't have a way to confirm

15 that.

11:36

11:38

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

14

18 California Electrical Code on the NFPA viewer?

11:38

Q. Do you have any reason to believe it doesn't 11:38

12

11:36

Q. Have you yourself accessed the 2019

11:38
11:38

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

13 foundation.

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
17

THE WITNESS: I don't know if it links

11 here?

11:36

11:36

THE WITNESS: No.

6

11:38

11:38

10 link to this web page in the NFPA viewer reflected

11:36

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

MR. FEE: Object to form. Mischaracterizes

5 her testimony.

9

11:36

12 screenshots you see reflected in this exhibit
14

11:36
11:36

11:38

11:38

7 directly to what I'm looking at today.

8

13 familiar to you?

11:38

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

3 foundation.

6 viewer that the NFPA supplies for viewing the 2019

11

2

11:36

7 electrical code?

Page 60

22 that "Portions of this publication are reproduced

11:37

11:39

23 with permission from the National Electrical Code."

11:37

24 Do you see that here?

11:37

25

A. Yes.

Page 59

11:39

11:39
11:39
Page 61

16 (Pages 58 - 61)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. And this also identifies that no portions of 11:39

1 page which the public can access.

11:43

2 NEC material may be reproduced except with permission 11:40

2

3 of the National Fire Protection Association." Do you 11:40

3 to this next page as well. It's noted as page 49 of 11:43

4 see that text?

4 1034. Have you -- at the top of the -- strike that. 11:43

11:40

5

A. Yes.

11:40

6

Q. What portions of the publication here did

7 NFPA contribute?

5
11:40

At the top of the page, it reads "Chapter 1

7

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Object to form.

11:40

MR. NERCESSIAN: I can rephrase.

11:40

A. Yes.

8

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:40

9

11:44

6 California Matrix Adoption Tables." Do you see that? 11:44

11:40

8
10

Q. I'd like to refer you -- call your attention 11:43

Q. What is a Matrix Adoption Table?

11:44

9

A. It's a guide for the code reader to see

11:44
11:44

10 which State agencies amend or adopt an entire article 11:44

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:40

11 of the electrical code or only specific sections from 11:44

12

11:40

12 the articles.

Q. How can a reader of the California

11:44

13 Electrical Code distinguish which portions of the

11:40

13

14 California Electrical Code NFPA contributed?

11:40

14 that allows a reader to distinguish whether a code is 11:44

15

MR. YEN: Same objection.

16

THE WITNESS: So on page -- and I don't

11:40

Q. And what information do these tables reflect 11:44

15 accepted as amended or adopted in its entirety?

11:44

11:40

MR. FEE: Objection. Form.

11:41

17 know -- the pages aren't numbered, so on the top

16
17

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Misstates

11:44
11:44

18 right corner, it says 11 of 1034. There's a legend

11:41

18 her testimony.

19 that tells the reader how to distinguish between

11:41

19

20 model code and California amendments.

11:41

20 questions without the full California Electrical Code 11:45

11:44

MR. FEE: Also object, you're asking these

11:44

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:41

21 in front of her, so she can't answer the question in 11:45

22

11:41

22 the context of the entire document.

Q. And that legend indicates that if in the

23 margin there is this "CA" notation vertically, that

11:41

24 indicates that a California amendment has been made
25 to the model code; correct?

11:45

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:41

11:41

24

11:45

Q. You may answer if you understand the

25 question.

11:45

11:45

Page 62
1
2

A. Yes.

11:41

1

MR. FEE: I'm going to object to the use of

5

11:41

3 code.
4

MR. NERCESSIAN: Yes. These are screenshots 11:41
11:41

7

MR. FEE: Selected by you?

8

MR. NERCESSIAN: Selected by me, yes.

9

MR. FEE: Okay. I object to that.

13

11:45

5 line those portions that were adopted in their

11:41

11:45

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's vague. 11:45

8

THE WITNESS: Yeah.

11:45

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:42

11:42

10

11:45

Q. So how would code reader understand whether

12 adopted in its entirety?

11:42

14 Commission make any of these California amendments
15 available to the public separately from the

13
11:42

11:42

16 publication of the California Electrical Code?

14 exhibit again.
15

11:42

11:45

MR. FEE: Object as to form. Object to the
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure I'm

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

11:42

THE WITNESS: Yes. The Final Statement of

11:42

18

11:42
11:42

Q. After the rulemaking process is over, does,

23 any California amendments separately?
24

11:42
11:42

A. The Building Standards Commission makes

25 available the Final Statement of Reasons on its web

11:46

Q. So let's look at this table that -- just for 11:46

19 "Article 110 - Requirements of Electrical

11:46

20 Installations." How would a code reader interpret

11:42

22 to your knowledge, the State of California publish

11:45

11:46

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

18

19 Reasons may contain those amendments.

11:43

21 this table?
MR. FEE: Objection.

23

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

24 Speculation.

11:46

11:46

22

11:43
25
Page 63

11:45

11:45

16 understanding the question.

17

21

11:45

11 portion of the reference code, reference standard was 11:45
11:42

Q. All right. Does the Building Standards

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:45

7

11:41

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:45

Q. So, for instance, it reflects on the top

6 entirety?

11:41

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection as

11 incomplete.

11:45

2 the commission for publication in this edition of the 11:45

11:41

6 of what's available in the NFPA viewer.

10

A. This table represents what was approved by

11:41

3 this exhibit in its entirety. Have you excerpted
4 pages of this?

Page 64

11:46
11:46

11:46

THE WITNESS: I can't answer how a code

11:46
Page 65

17 (Pages 62 - 65)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 reader would interpret it.

11:46

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

Q. What information is this table intend --

4 strike that.
5

11:46
11:46

11:46

What information does this table for Article 11:46

6 110 provide that may be helpful to a code reader in

11:46

7 interpreting the relevant portion of the California
8 Electrical Code?
9
10

11:47

11:47

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

11:47

THE WITNESS: This table, for example,

11:47

11 represents that DSA, the acronym SS adopts the entire 11:47
12 Article 110.

11:47

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:47

14

Q. And what is DSA?

15

A. The Division of the State Architect. And

11:47
11:47

16 the SS is -- represents further structural safety
17 program.
18

11:47

11:47

Q. And then we have -- two columns over, do you 11:47

19 see there's this column that reads "HCD"?

11:47

20

A. Yes.

21

Q. What does that acronym refer to?

22

A. That's Department of Housing and Community

23 Development.
24

11:47
11:47
11:47

11:47

Q. And if you go down just to the second row

11:47

25 within that column, there are X's here under sub

11:48

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. And if that was the case, how would a person 11:49
access -- strike that.
11:49
If it was the case that they were carried
11:49
forward from a previous code cycle, how would a
11:49
person seeking to access those provisions know?
11:50
A. I'm not following the question. Sorry.
11:50
Q. So earlier we established that -- strike
11:50
that.
11:50
It's possible that a State agency such as 11:50
HCD may adopt an entire article as amended into its 11:50
rules while -- strike that.
11:50
It's possible that a State agency such as 11:50
HCD may adopt an entire article as amended into its 11:50
rules; correct?
11:50
A. I'm sorry. Repeat the question.
11:50
Q. Is it possible that a State agency such as 11:50
HCD can adopt an entire article as amended into its 11:51
rules?
11:51
A. Yes.
11:51
Q. And in the case that it does that, is it
11:51
possible that that provision does not appear in their 11:51
Final Statement of Reasons?
11:51
A. It's possible.
11:51
Q. One reason it might not appear is in -11:51
strike that.
11:51

Page 66
1 column one and a sub column two.

11:48

2

A. Uh-huh.

3

Q. What do those X's reflect?

11:48

4

A. That HCD's authority for one and two is

11:48

5 adopt the entire article as amended and that the

11:48

11:48

6 amended sections are listed below.

11:48

7

11:48

Q. And to access those articles that are

8 adopted in their entirety as amended -- strike that. 11:48
9

How would a code reader access those

11:48

10 articles that had been adopted in their entirety as
11 amended by HCD?

11:48

11:48

12

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:48

13

MR. NERCESSIAN: I can rephrase.

11:49

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
15

11:49

Q. What means of access does the Building

11:49

16 Standards Commission provide to a code reader seeking 11:49
17 to access those articles adopted in their entirety as 11:49
18 amended by HCD?
19

11:49

A. They are made available on the link to the

11:49

20 website, and those may or may not be in the Final
21 Statement of Reasons that were amended by HCD.
22

Q. Why may they not be present in the Final
A. They could have been carried forward from a

25 previous code cycle.

11:49
11:49

23 Statement of Reasons that were amended by HCD?
24

11:49

11:49
11:49

11:49

Page 68

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

One reason such a provision might not appear 11:51
in the Final Statement of Rules is if it was carried 11:51
forward from a previous cycle; correct?
11:51
A. Yes.
11:51
Q. In such a case, how would a person know
11:51
where to look to find the relevant code provision? 11:51
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:52
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.
11:52
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11:52
Q. All right. In such a case, does, to your
11:52
knowledge, the State of California -- strike that. 11:52
In such a case, would -- strike that.
11:53
In such a case, is it possible that the
11:53
entire code provision as amended appears in a Final 11:53
Statement of Reasons from the State agency from an 11:53
earlier cycle?
11:53
A. It's possible.
11:53
Q. Is there any way a person seeking to find 11:53
the relevant provision that was adopted in its
11:53
entirety as amended would know where to look to
11:53
access that provision?
11:53
MR. FEE: Objection to form, calls for
11:53
speculation.
11:53
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah. I can't -- I
11:53
don't know how to answer that question. I don't have 11:54

Page 67

Page 69

18 (Pages 66 - 69)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 an answer for that question actually.

11:54

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

Q. And why don't you have an answer for that

4 question?
5

1 BNi; correct?

11:54

2

11:54

3 the exact website link.

11:54

4

A. I don't think I'm fully understanding what

6 you're trying to ask. I apologize.

11:54

5

11:54

Q. All right. I can rephrase.

8

A. Okay.

11:54

9

Q. I'm trying to ask with respect to these code 11:54

7

11:54

11:57

MR. FEE: Objection. Mischaracterizes her
THE WITNESS: That text is not on our

11:57
11:57

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:54

11 amendments, how can a person seeking to find them

11:57

10
11:54

11:54

Q. And you're not aware of what restrictions

12

11:57

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Asked and

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:54

13 answered.

14

THE WITNESS: They're made available on the

14

11:54

11:57

11 the publisher places on access to that text?

13

11:54
11:54

16

11:57

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

Q. And to access those -- strike that.

11:54

11:58

Q. Do you have to register with NFPA to see the 11:58

17 California Electrical Code at its site?

To access those previous editions, would the 11:54

18

11:57

11:57

THE WITNESS: No.

15 website in previous editions of the code.
17

11:57

11:57

8 website. It links to the publisher's website.

10 provisions that are part of the California
12 access them?

11:57

11:57

Q. That text is not on the BSC site; correct?

6 testimony.

7

11:57

A. That was the publisher, yes. I don't know

11:58

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

11:58

19 person have to go through the publisher such as BNi? 11:55

19 speculation.

20

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:55

20

21

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:55

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:55

22

23

11:55

23 register within NFPA to see the California Electrical 11:58

Q. And when -- you testified earlier that

11:58

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:58
11:58

Q. So you have no awareness whether one has to

24 they're available on the website in previous editions 11:55

24 Code on their site?

25 of the code; correct? Do you recall that testimony? 11:55

25

11:58

11:58

A. I only am familiar with how it's accessed

11:58

Page 70
1

A. Yes.

2

Q. On whose website?

3

A. The link provided on our website.

4

Q. The link is provided on the BSC website?

5

A. Yes.

6

11:55

1 through the BSC website to the NFPA website.
11:55

2

11:55

4

11:56

5
11:56

11:56

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:56

Q. Where is the code provided?

10

MR. FEE: Objection. Form.

11:56

11

THE WITNESS: I'm having -- I can't -- I

11
13

11:56

A. Yes.

18

Q. Text on, for instance, with respect to the

16

11:56

11:58

11:58

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

11:59
11:59

Q. Do you know with -- strike that.

11:59

With respect to the 2016 code, do you know

11:59

17 whether BNi had to obtain permission from any other
11:56

19 2016 version of the code, to a website service by
20 BNi; correct?

15

11:56

17

11:58

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Q. The link that's available on the BSC website 11:56

18 entity to publish the California Electrical Code?

11:56

19
20

11:57

MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

21

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:57

22

THE WITNESS: The 2016 from our website does 11:57

22

11:59
11:59

Q. Do you know whether the State of California

23 reference the model code publisher.

11:57

23 receives any revenue from BNi with respect to its

24 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11:57

24 application of the California Electrical Code?

Q. Which you testified previously for 2016 was

11:57

25

11:59
11:59

11:59

A. The Building Standards Commission does not

Page 71

11:59

11:59

11:59

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

25

11:58

11:58

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lacks

12 foundation.

11:56

16 is to text elsewhere; correct?

11:58

Q. Do you know whether a person needs to agree

10 Electrical Code on a publisher's website?

11:56

11:58

11:58

9 to terms and conditions to access the California

11:56

12 don't know -- I don't understand the question that

15

11:58
11:58

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Asked and

6 answered.
8

11:56

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. Correct.

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

9

13 you're asking.

11:58

Q. And that, as we established earlier, is by a 11:58

3 link on the BSC website?

11:55

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Asked and

7 answered.

Page 72

11:59
Page 73

19 (Pages 70 - 73)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 receive revenue from BNi.
2

11:59

1 any contributions?

Q. Do you know whether any other agency of the

3 State of California does?

11:59

11:59

4

A. I have -- I do not know, no.

5

Q. I'd like to refer your attention to the

11:59

4

12:00

9

12:02

12:03

Q. So you're defining -- just to I understand

12:03

5 the terminology you're using, you're defining

7 starts with the heading "Acknowledgments."
A. 7?

12:02

A. I do believe they amend the California

3 Electrical Code, yes.

6 page marked 7 of 1034 of this same document. That
8

2

12:00
12:00

12:03

6 "contribution" as whether they propose an amendment? 12:03
7

Q. 7, correct.

12:00

10

A. Okay.

12:00

11

Q. And so you see in this first paragraph that

A. A California amendment.

8

12:00

Q. That's understood. Did the Department of

12:03

9 Housing and Community Development seek to copyright
10 any of their contributions to the California
11 Electrical Code?

12:03

12:00

12

12:03

13 developed through the outstanding collaborative

12:00

13

A. I don't know.

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:03

14 efforts of," a number of State agencies here? Do you 12:01

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

15 see that paragraph?

15

12:01

16

A. Yes.

17

12:01

Q. Going down the list, what contributions --

12:03

Q. Are you aware of whether any of these

16 agencies -- strike that.
12:01

17

12:01

12:03

12:03

Are you aware of whether any of these State

12:03

18 agencies that made contributions to the 2019

19

Are you aware of -- strike that.

20

So each of these State agencies contributed

12:01

12:03

19 California Electrical Code sought a copyright in

12:01

20 their contributions?

21 to the development of the California Electrical Code; 12:01

21

22 correct?

22 speculation.

12:01

23

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Misstates

12:01

25 what the document says.

23
12:01

12:01

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

12:03

12:03

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

12:03

24 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
25

12:03

12:03

12:03

Q. The only organization you're aware of that

12:04

Page 74
1

THE WITNESS: I don't know that every State

2 agency contributed to the -- contributed to

12:02

THE WITNESS: I don't know that every one

12:02

3

12:04

What organizations are you aware of that

12:04

A. The model code publisher.

7

Q. And who is that?

12:04

A. In the case of the '19, it's NFPA.

9

Q. And what about the 2016 California

12:04
12:04
12:04

10 Electrical Code? I can elaborate.

12:04

With respect to the 2016 California

12:04

12 Electrical Code, are you aware of any organizations

12:02

Q. And what definition of "collaborated" are

12:02

13 that have asserted a copyright in that version?
14

12:02

A. I know that these State agencies contributed 12:02

15 legal conclusion.
16

17 list of common State agencies that contribute to all 12:02

17 that. I don't know.

18 of the California Building Standards Code.

12:05

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:02

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd have to research

19

Q. All right.

12:02

20

A. So, for example, the Department of Public

12:05

12:05

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 12:05

16 to amendments, but not all of them did. These are a 12:02

19

12:04

12:04

6

11

12:02

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

15

12:02

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:02

14 you using?

2 Code is the -- strike that.

8

Q. Each of these State agencies collaborated in 12:01

11 collaborated for the electrical code.
13

1 has asserted a copyright in the California Electrical 12:04

5 Electrical Code?

12:01

8 Code, however, did they not?
10

Page 76

4 have asserted a copyright in the 2019 California

7 the process of developing the California Electrical
9

12:01

12:01

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
6

12:01

12:01

3 amendments to the California Electrical Code that's
4 listed here.

12:03

12:03

12:00

12 it states "The California Electrical Code was

18 strike that.

12:03

12:05

12:05
12:05

Q. I'm asking for your awareness.

12:05

20

A. That would be BNi.

21 Health, I wouldn't know unless I researched to see if 12:02

21

Q. And anybody else you're aware of?

12:05

22 they actually specifically amended something in the

22

A. It could possibly be NFPA, but that's --

12:05

23 California Electrical Code.
24

Q. All right. Are you aware whether the

12:02
12:02

12:02
12:02

12:05

23 yeah. I'd have to research that.
24

12:05

Q. Are you aware of whether any of the State

25 Department of Housing and Community Development made 12:02 25 agencies that made contributions to the 2016
Page 75

12:05
12:05
Page 77

20 (Pages 74 - 77)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

California Electrical Code have sought a copyright 12:05
interest in those contributions?
12:05
A. No.
12:05
Q. So you have no awareness of State agencies 12:05
seeking a copyright in their contributions to the
12:05
2016 California Electrical Code?
12:06
A. No.
12:06
Q. Do you have -- strike that.
12:06
Do you have any awareness of -- strike that. 12:06
Did you have any involvement in the
12:06
development of the 2013 version of the California
12:06
Electrical Code?
12:06
A. No. Can you repeat the question? I'm
12:06
sorry.
12:06
Q. Yes. Did you have any involvement in the
12:06
development of the 2013 version of the California
12:06
Electrical Code?
12:06
A. Yes.
12:06
Q. What was your involvement?
12:06
A. When I worked as an architectural associate, 12:07
like I spoke to earlier, I would have been involved 12:07
in receiving documents from State agencies that
12:07
possibly amend the California Electrical Code and
12:07
review those documents for the public process.
12:07
Q. And what sources was the 2013 version of the 12:07

1

Q. What organizations are you aware of that

12:08

2 have asserted a copyright interest in any version of 12:08
3 the California Electrical Code?
4

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That's

5 vague.
6

12:09

THE WITNESS: I think I already answered

7 that question.

12:09

12:09

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
9

12:09

12:09

12:09

Q. That was specific to a particular triennial

12:09

10 version. I'm asking more broadly. So I can restate 12:09
11 the question.

12:09

12

A. Okay.

12:09

13

Q. What organizations are you aware of that

12:09

14 have asserted a copyright interest in any version of 12:09
15 the California Electrical Code?

12:09

16

12:09

17

A. That's too broad of a question.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague. Not 12:09

18 clear what you're talking about, the California --

12:09

19

12:09

MR. NERCESSIAN: I said California

20 Electrical Code.
21

12:09

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Okay. And the

12:09

22 California amendments --

12:09

23

(Discussion off the record)

12:09

24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Just wanting to clarify 12:09

25 what exactly it is that you're talking about that's

12:09

Page 78

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

California Electrical Code based on?
12:07
A. I believe it was the 2011 edition of the
12:07
NEC.
12:07
Q. That's the National Electrical Code?
12:07
A. Yes.
12:07
Q. Are you aware of any organization that has 12:07
asserted a copyright interest in the 2013 version of 12:07
the California Electrical Code?
12:07
A. No.
12:07
Q. Is it your understanding that no
12:07
organization has asserted a copyright interest in the 12:08
2013 version of the California Electrical Code?
12:08
A. No.
12:08
Q. You just have no understanding one way or
12:08
another?
12:08
A. Correct.
12:08
Q. Are you aware of any State agencies that
12:08
have asserted a copyright interest in the 2013
12:08
version of the California Electrical Code?
12:08
A. No.
12:08
Q. Are you aware of any State agencies that
12:08
have asserted a copyright interest in their
12:08
contributions for any version of the California
12:08
Electrical Code?
12:08
A. No.
12:08

Page 80
1 being copyrighted.

12:09

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

12:10

Q. The question is are you aware of any

12:10

4 organizations that have asserted a copyright interest 12:10
5 in any version, that's any triennial version of the

12:10

6 California Electrical Code including the California
7 amendments?
8

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: We'll keep the

9 objection as vague.
10

12:10

12:10
12:10

12:10

THE WITNESS: No.

12:10

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:10

12

12:10

Q. Other than BNi and NFPA --

13

MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.

14

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: We think this is an

12:10
12:10

15 unfair question. You're being pretty vague about

12:11

16 what you're talking about being copyrighted or not.
17

12:11

MR. NERCESSIAN: I'm simply asking about

12:11

18 whether Ms. Marvelli has any awareness of any

12:11

19 organizations that have asserted an interest.
20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: In the California

21 amendments or in the NEC?
22

12:11
12:11

12:11

MR. NERCESSIAN: In the California

12:11

23 Electrical Code. The objection is noted.

12:11

24 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:11

25

Q. All right. I can move on. Before we move

Page 79

12:11
Page 81

21 (Pages 78 - 81)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

on from this exhibit, just a few more questions.
12:11
You heard NFPA's counsel's objection to
12:11
Exhibit Number 4 containing screenshots from the
12:12
NFPA's website. Does page one of the exhibit fairly 12:12
represent what a user would see on the screen in
12:12
reviewing the California Electrical Code on the NFPA 12:12
website?
12:12
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:12
THE WITNESS: I would say yes.
12:12
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:12
Q. How many screenshots would be necessary to 12:12
reproduce the entire California Electrical Code?
12:12
A. I don't know.
12:12
Q. Are you aware whether one can reproduce the 12:12
whole California Electrical Code from the NFPA
12:12
website without printing over a thousand screenshots? 12:12
A. I don't know.
12:13
MR. YEN: Are you doing okay?
12:13
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Little while longer,
12:13
and then we'll take a break?
12:13
MR. YEN: Yeah.
12:13
MR. NERCESSIAN: Can we go off the record a 12:13
sec?
12:13
VIDEO OPERATOR: Sure. We're off the
12:13
12:13 25 record. It's
.
12:13

25

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. It's a PRA request.
12:16
Q. And had you seen this document prior to
12:16
receiving the subpoena?
12:16
A. Yes, back in 2016 when it was received at
12:16
our office.
12:16
Q. And it's a public records request of
12:16
October 28th, 2016; correct?
12:16
A. Yes.
12:16
Q. What documents does this request seek?
12:16
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
12:16
MR. YEN: Also object to calls for
12:16
speculation.
12:16
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd have to review the 12:16
whole document again.
12:16
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:16
Q. Well, you can -- strike that.
12:16
This letter was addressed to you; correct? 12:17
A. Yes.
12:17
Q. And did you review this document in 2016?
12:17
A. Yes.
12:17
Q. What action did you or the Building
12:17
Standards Commission take in response to this
12:17
document?
12:17
MR. YEN: I would just caution you not to
12:17
reveal any attorney-client communications you had
12:17

Page 82
1 1

(Recess)

2

12:13

1 with respect to this.

VIDEO OPERATOR: We're back on the record.

2

12:14

3 It's

12:14

.

2

12:17

THE WITNESS: Okay. We responded to the PRA 12:17

3 and provided any responsive documents.

3 12:14

12:17

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

4 4

MR. NERCESSIAN: Can we please mark this

5 5 next in order?
6 6

12:14

12:14

(Exhibit 5 marked)

12:15

9 9 document, and, Ms. Marvelli, do you recognize this
A. Yes.

12:15

12 12

Q. What is it?

13 13

A. It was what was served to me a couple weeks
Q. And it's the subpoena to testify at today's

12:15

12:15

Q. The document contains a number of

12:15

22 22

Q. So if we could go to Attachment A. Do you

Q. What is this document?

12:19
12:19

Q. You've been passed a document marked for

12:15

12:16
12:16
12:16

12:19

14 to review this document. Have you seen this document 12:19
15 before?

12:19

16

A. I've not seen this document before.
Q. Do you see the date at the bottom of the

12:19

18 page that reads 12-16-2016?

12:19

12:19

19

A. Yes.

Q. What does the document appear to be?
A. A series of emails.

22

Q. Emails from who?

A. Looks like some of them are CBSC staff.
Q. Which CBSC staff?

25

12:15

12:19

13 identification as Exhibit 6. You can take a moment

24

A. Okay.

A. Yes.

(Exhibit 6 marked)

23

12:15

21 21

25 25

10

20

12:15

12:17
12:18

21

19 19 attachments, and I'd like to ask you some questions

23 23 recognize this document?

Q. I have a document I'd like to show you now

17

12:15

18 18

24 24

12:15

12:15

A. Yes.

12:17

9 that I understand was part of that production.

12

12:15

17 17

12:17

A. Yes.

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

11 11

20 20 about some of them.

12:15

12:15

16 16 deposition; is that correct?

12:17

8

12:14

Q. Please take a moment to look at the

14 14 ago.

Q. Did you review the documents that were

7

8 8

10 10 document?

5

12:17

6 provided pursuant to this request?

12:14

7 7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

15 15

Page 84

A. So there's Pam Maeda, Mike Nearman.

Page 83

12:19
12:19

12:19
12:20
12:20

12:20
12:20
Page 85

22 (Pages 82 - 85)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. And before we move on, what role does Pam

2 Maeda have at CBSC?
3

12:20

12:20

A. At the time, in 2016, she was either an

Q. I want to call your attention to the first

2 sentence within the body.

12:20

4 issue -- I believe she was an office technician.

1
3

Q. And Michael Nearman?

12:20

6

A. Deputy executive director.

7

Q. Do you have any reason to believe that these 12:20

12:23

Q. That says "In our future response to

12:23

5 Mr. Malamud, please keep this info. It may be

12:20

6 useful." Do you see that?

8 documents were not produced by CBSC in response to
9 the public records request, Public.Resource?

A. Okay.

4

12:20

5

12:23

12:23

12:23

12:23

7

12:21

12:21

A. Yes.

8

Q. Do you recall why the information reflected

12:23

9 in this document may be useful?

10

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:21

10

11

THE WITNESS: I don't know because I don't

11 no, I don't recall.

12:21

12:23

12:23

A. No. I haven't read this in two years, so,

12:24

12:24

12 have a copy of what we responded to in our PRA. Are 12:21

12

13 you stating that this is the PRA request that we sent 12:21

13 further down on the document, there's a heading that 12:24

14 back to them? I have no way to know that.

14 reads "Caution Regarding Official Code." Do you see 12:24

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
16

Q. What information would you need to know

17 that?
18

12:21
12:21

15 that?
12:21

12:24

12:24

12:21

19 responded to the PRA from our office. That wasn't

16

A. Yes.

17

12:21

A. Well, I would want to look at what we

Q. I want to call your attention to this --

Q. And that caution includes information about

12:24

18 a Government Code section.

12:24

19

A. Uh-huh.

20 included in the documents that you provided me in the 12:21

20

Q. Do you see that?

21 subpoena.

21

A. Uh-huh. Yes. Sorry.

22

Q. What does the relevant section of the code

22
23

12:21

Q. Yes. These were other -- well, strike that. 12:21
The subpoena did not include the full

24 universe of documents that -- strike that.
25

12:21

12:22

23 cited here require?

12:22

24

Did the subpoena attach the full universe of 12:22
Page 86

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

documents that CBSC provided in response to the
12:22 1
public records request from Public.Resource?
12:22
2
A. No.
12:22
3
Q. Did CBSC produce documents in response to
12:22 4
the public records request from Public.Resource?
12:22 5
A. Yes.
12:22
6
Q. Did those documents include internal emails 12:22 7
from CBSC staff?
12:22
8
A. I don't know.
12:22
9
Q. Did you review the documents that CBSC
12:22 10
produced in response to this public records request? 12:22 11
A. No.
12:22
12
Q. I'd like to call your attention to the last 12:22
13
page of this compilation document.
12:23
14
MR. YEN: Exhibit 6?
12:23
15
MR. NERCESSIAN: Exhibit 6, correct.
12:23 16
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:23
17
Q. Do you recognize this document?
12:23
18
A. Yes.
12:23
19
Q. And what is this document?
12:23
20
A. It's an email from me to Alex and Michael
12:23 21
Nearman back in 2016.
12:23
22
Q. And what prompted you to write this
12:23
23
document?
12:23
24
A. I don't recall.
12:23
25

12:24
12:24
12:24
12:24

12:24

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal

25 conclusion.

12:24

12:24

12:24
Page 88

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I would just offer what 12:24
it states here.
12:24
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:25
Q. And what is that?
12:25
A. It appears to state "Government Code
12:25
Section 11344 requires the" -- "OLA" is the
12:25
abbreviation for the Office of Administrative Law -- 12:25
"to provide for the official compilation, printing 12:25
and publication of State regulations in the
12:25
California Code of Regulations."
12:25
Q. Now we've been discussing Title 24.
12:25
A. Uh-huh.
12:25
Q. And is Title 24 part of the Code of
12:25
Regulations?
12:25
A. It's the 24th title in the California Code 12:25
of Regulations, yes.
12:25
Q. Is it your understanding that the Office of 12:25
Administrative Law provides a compilation of the
12:25
entire California Code of Regulations including
12:25
Title 24?
12:25
A. The Office of Administrative Law links to
12:25
our website for Title 24.
12:25
Q. Does the Office of Administrative Law
12:25
provide access to the other titles within the
12:26
California Code of Regulations?
12:26

Page 87

Page 89

23 (Pages 86 - 89)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

2

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

12:26
12:26

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
4

12:26

Q. Are you aware of whether Title 24 of the

12:26

5 California Code of Regulations is treated any

12:26

6 differently than other titles within the California
7 Code of Regulations?

12:26

12:26

8

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

9

THE WITNESS: I just know that it points to

10 our website, the CBSC website.

12:26

12:26

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12

12:26

12:26

Q. Do any of the other titles of the California 12:26

13 Code of Regulations point to the CBSC website?

12:26

14

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:26

15

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.

12:26

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
17

12:26

Q. Are you aware of any other titles that point 12:26

18 to the CBSC website?

12:26

19

A. I don't know.

12:27

20

Q. So you're not aware of any other titles of

12:27

21 the California Code of Regulations that point to the 12:27
22 CBSC website?
23

A. I don't have any knowledge of that. I don't 12:27

24 know.
25

12:27
12:27

Q. Are you aware of any issues persons seeking

12:27
Page 90

1 to read the code have encountered in accessing the
2 California Electrical Code?

12:27

12:27

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

publisher and let them know that the link is broken, 12:29
and then we have it fixed.
12:29
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:29
Q. Because it's the publisher that furnishes
12:29
the text of the California Electrical Code to people 12:29
seeking to access it online; correct?
12:29
A. The link is provided through our website to 12:29
the publisher.
12:29
Q. Any other difficulties that you have been
12:29
aware of at the CBSC in gaining access to the
12:29
California Electrical Code?
12:29
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
12:29
Mischaracterizes her testimony.
12:29
THE WITNESS: No.
12:29
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:29
Q. In situations where -- in the cases -12:30
strike that.
12:30
In those cases where you've received calls 12:30
with problems accessing the code, who was it that had 12:30
the issue?
12:30
A. I don't know. I don't recall.
12:30
Q. Was it BSC staff?
12:30
A. I don't recall.
12:30
Q. Would it have been members of the public?
12:30
A. I don't recall.
12:30
Page 92

1

Q. So is it your testimony there -- strike

2 that.

12:30

12:30

3

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:27

3

So is it your testimony that -- strike that. 12:30

4

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Vague.

12:27

4

Like to refer you to the first page of this

5

THE WITNESS: You'll have to repeat the

12:28

5 compilation document. So we discussed previously

6 question. I'm sorry.

12:28

9

A. Uh-huh.

12:28

Q. Okay. I can rephrase.

10

7 you recall that?

12:28
12:28
12:28

12 Code have encountered in accessing the code?

12:28

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

12:28

12:28

A. Yes.

9

12:28

Q. Has the CBSC ever been informed of issues

14 speculation.

12:31

8

11 persons seeking to read the California Electrical
13

12:31

6 this exchange between Pam Maeda and Mike Nearman. Do 12:31

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
8

12:30

12:31

Q. And do you see there's this first paragraph

12:31

10 that reads "Just received a phone call from Suren

12:31

11 at," and it provides a phone number, "and he tried to 12:31
12 view the code on the BSC website, and it came up with 12:31
13 the ICC page wanting him to pay for the premium

12:31

14 access in order to view the code"? Do you see that

15

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

16

THE WITNESS: We've received calls where the 12:28

12:28

12:31

15 paragraph?

12:32

16

A. Uh-huh.

12:32

17 code might not be online, and we notify the publisher 12:28

17

Q. Here, the reference it makes to Part 2.5, do 12:32

18 to put it online if there's a link that's broken.

12:28

18 you understand that to mean Part 2.5 of Title 24?

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:28

19

A. Yes.

20

Q. And Part 2.5 is the residential code?

21

A. That's the California Residential Code, yes. 12:32

22

Q. And who is the publisher for the California

20

Q. And in those situations, does the CBSC have

21 any ability to itself fix the access issue with the
22 broken link?
23

A. No.

12:29

12:29

12:29
12:29

23 Residential Code?

24

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

12:29

25

THE WITNESS: We -- sorry. We contact the

24
12:29
25
Page 91

12:32

12:32
12:32
12:32

12:32

A. The International Code Council.

12:32

Q. And that's the ICC you referred to in this

12:32
Page 93

24 (Pages 90 - 93)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

sentence?
12:32
1
A. Yes.
12:32
2
Q. Have you been aware of any instances -12:32
3
strike that.
12:32
4
Are you aware of any instances where CBSC
12:32 5
has received word from a member of the public that a 12:32 6
publisher required that person to pay for premium
12:32 7
access to view the code?
12:33
8
MR. FEE: Objection. To the extent it
12:33
9
purports to characterize this document,
12:33
10
mischaracterizes it.
12:33
11
THE WITNESS: I think it's taken out of
12:33
12
context. This is one instance, but this isn't
12:33
13
accurate.
12:33
14
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:33
15
Q. Oh. You don't believe that -- strike that. 12:33
16
When this report came in March of 2016, were 12:33 17
you made aware of it?
12:33
18
A. This, I don't know. I don't recall.
12:33
19
Q. Have you ever heard of -- strike that.
12:33
20
Has CBSC, in the past, ever received reports 12:33
21
of people seeking to access the code and being made 12:33 22
to pay for a premium access?
12:34
23
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
12:34
24
THE WITNESS: No.
12:34
25

California Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:35
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:35
THE WITNESS: I don't -- I can't answer the 12:35
question the way you're asking it. That's the
12:35
difficulty.
12:36
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:36
Q. So what's the nature of the difficulty?
12:36
Maybe I can clarify.
12:36
A. Well, to view the California codes, you can 12:36
access the codes via our website, which points to ICC 12:36
similarly to how we just discussed the BNi or the
12:36
NFPA, so that's how you can view the codes online. 12:36
If you want to purchase the codes, you have other
12:36
access to the codes.
12:36
Q. But if you want to view the codes, do you
12:36
know whether they're -- strike that.
12:36
Short of purchasing the codes, do you know 12:36
whether a person can receive -- strike that.
12:36
Short of purchasing the codes, do you know 12:36
whether a person can search the California
12:36
Residential Code on the ICC website?
12:37
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:37
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12:37
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:37
Q. Have you viewed the California Residential 12:37

Page 94
1 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
2
3

12:34

Q. Are you aware of anybody in -- strike that.

12:34

Are you aware of any other members of your

12:34

4 team at CBSC receiving reports from people seeking to 12:34
5 access the code that they met a demand to pay for
6 premium access to view the code?
7

12:34

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

8

12:34

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

12:34

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10

12:34

12:34

Q. Are you aware of whether the ICC web

12:34

11 page requires premium access in order to view the
12 California Residential Code?

12:34

12:35

13

A. It does not.

14

Q. Are you aware of whether the ICC website

12:35
12:35

15 places any restrictions on a person's access to the
16 California Residential Code?

12:35

12:35

17

A. I don't know what you mean by "restriction." 12:35

18

Q. Do you know whether a person can print the

12:35

19 California Residential Code from the ICC website?

12:35

20

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:35

21

THE WITNESS: Not aware.

12:35

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:35

23

Q. One way or another?

24

A. No.

12:35

25

Q. Do you know whether a person can search the

12:35
12:35
Page 95

Page 96

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Code on the ICC website?
12:37
A. Yes.
12:37
Q. Have you tried to print the California
12:37
Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:37
A. No.
12:37
Q. Do you know whether one can print the
12:37
California Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:37
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:37
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12:37
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:37
Q. Have you tried to search the California
12:37
Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:37
A. No.
12:37
Q. Do you know whether one can search the
12:37
California Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:37
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:37
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12:37
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:37
Q. Have you tried to extract tests from the
12:37
California Residential Code from the ICC website?
12:37
A. No.
12:37
Q. Do you know whether one can extract text
12:38
from the California Residential Code from the ICC
12:38
website?
12:38
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:38
Page 97

25 (Pages 94 - 97)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

12:38

1

Q. When did it do so?

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

12:38

2

A. I don't have the specific dates.

3

12:38

3

Q. What do you recall of that instance?

Q. Other than viewing the California

12:41
12:41
12:41

4 Residential Code from the ICC website, have you taken 12:38

4

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

5 any other actions with respect to the California

5

THE WITNESS: It was a -- sorry. Okay?

12:38

6 Residential Code on the ICC website?

12:38

7

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

8

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure what

9 you're asking.

13

12:38
12:38

12:41

7

Q. Okay.

8

A. It was displayed on our website, and when

12:41
12:41

9 staff realized that that version was displayed on our 12:41
12:38

Q. Have you done anything other than view the

12 code -- strike that.

12:41

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:38

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11

12:41

10 website, we removed it and posted the appropriate

12:38

12:38

12 edition.

With respect to the California Residential

12:38

14 Code on the ICC website -- okay. Strike that.

13

12:38

15

A. Which one?

16

Q. We're just starting with a blank slate.

17

A. Great.

18

Q. All right. With respect to the California

12:41

12:42

Q. And the link it was replaced with was this

14 nfpa.org URL; is that correct?

12:39

12:42

12:42

15

12:39

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

16

12:39

12:41

11 link to the California Electrical Code, the 2016

THE WITNESS: I --

12:42

12:42

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:39

12:42
12:42

18

Q. You don't know one way or --

19 Residential Code that appears on the ICC website,

12:39

19

A. I don't know. Yeah. Was a long time ago.

20 have you done anything other than view that code?

12:39

20

Q. Why did the Building Standards Commission

21
22

A. No.

12:39

12:42

21 make the decision to place a searchable PDF file of

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
24

12:42

12:39

12:39

22 the California Electrical Code 2016 edition on its
23 website?

Q. I'd like to go back to another attachment of 12:39

24

25 Exhibit 5, and this is Attachment B, and I just have 12:39

12:42
12:42

12:42

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

25 speculation.

12:42

12:42

Page 98
1 a few preliminary questions, and then we can go on
2 our lunch break.
3

All right. So do you recognize this

3

12:40

5

A. Yes.

THE WITNESS: It was a mistake by staff.

6

Q. And what is this document?

7

A. It appears to be another PRA request dated

Q. How did the Building Standards Commission

5 Electrical Code?
12:40

12:43

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

7

THE WITNESS: We have a contract with NFPA

12:40

10 the code.
12

12:43

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12 Building Standards Commission displayed on its

12:40

13 website a searchable PDF file of the California

12:40

14 Electric Code 2016 triennial edition"? Do you see
16

A. Yes.

17

12:43

Q. Do you know why the BSC does not keep the

13 text of the California Electrical Code on its own

12:41

12:41

Q. Is that sentence accurate?

12:43

12:43

9 staff only for the production of the next edition of 12:43

12:40

11 October 27th and until on or around November 7th, the 12:40

15 that sentence?

12:43

8 and BNi, and we receive a searchable version for

10 sentence of the first paragraph reads "On or around

12:42

12:42

6

12:40

12:40

Q. And do you see that the second to last

12:42
12:42

4 obtain a searchable PDF file of the California

12:40

8 December 9th, 2016.

1

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
12:40

4 document, Attachment B?

9

12:39

12:40

Page 100

14 website?

12:43
12:43

12:43

15

12:41

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:43

16

12:41

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

12:43

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

12:43

18

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:41

18

19

THE WITNESS: It was a long time ago, so I

19 Standards Commission does not itself keep the text of 12:43

20 don't recall the specifics.

12:41

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
22

12:41

A. Yes.

12:43

21

Q. Are you aware whether the Building Standards 12:41

23 Commission has ever displayed a searchable PDF file
25

12:43

20 the California Electrical Code on its website?
12:41

24 of the California Electrical Code on its website?

Q. So you have no idea why the Building

12:41

12:41

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

22

THE WITNESS: It's in our contract that we

23 are provided a link to the publisher's website to put 12:44
24 on our website.

12:41

12:43
12:43

25 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
Page 99

12:44
12:44
Page 101

26 (Pages 98 - 101)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. But the BSC itself has a text searchable

12:44

2 version in the form of a PDF file of the California
3 Electrical Code; correct?

12:44

12:44

4

A. Yes.

5

Q. How does the BSC use that file?

12:44
12:44

6

A. Internally for code development.

12:44

7

Q. And what does that mean?

8

A. We are able to clip copy information out if

12:44
12:44

9 we need to make amendments to the code during the
10 code development process.

12:44

12:44

11

Q. And what is clip copy information?

12

A. If there's a specific section that

12:44
12:44

13 California wants to amend -- or not California -- I

12:44

14 should say the Building Standards Commission, we can 12:44
15 copy that information and make our amendments to it. 12:45
16

Q. And just one more question, and then we can

17 take our lunch break.
18

A. Uh-huh.

19

Q. You stated earlier that it's in BSC's

12:45
12:45

20 contract that BSC are provided a link to the

12:45

21 publisher's website. What contract does that refer
22 to?
23

12:45

12:45

12:45

12:45

A. That's the contract that the Building

12:45

24 Standards Commission has with the publisher for the
25 code development.

12:45

12:45

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

that?

01:47
MR. YEN: Objection. Mischaracterizes
01:47
testimony.
01:47
THE WITNESS: I recall a conversation about 01:47
the nine-point criteria, yes.
01:47
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:47
Q. I think that we have come across -- and what 01:47
are the criteria for?
01:47
A. It's the criteria that the State agencies
01:48
develop the building standards on -- they must be met 01:48
in order for them -- well, I'm not articulating well. 01:48
Sorry. It's in building standards law, and it must 01:48
be met prior to the commission, bringing it to the 01:48
commission for the commission to take action on.
01:48
Q. And do each of the State agencies apply the 01:48
same nine-point criteria?
01:48
A. Yes.
01:48
Q. I believe that we came across the nine-point 01:48
criteria over the break, and I'd just like to talk 01:48
through them and see if you could confirm the
01:48
accuracy of the findings. Is one of the criteria 01:48
whether the proposed building standards do not
01:48
conflict with, overlap or duplicate other building 01:48
standards?
01:48
A. That sounds accurate, yes.
01:48

Page 102

1
2 edition of the California Electrical Code that the 12:45
2
3 BSC develops?
12:45
3
4
A. Yes. Every two years or four years, we
12:45
4
5 enter into a new contract with the publishers.
12:45
5
6
Q. So does that contract prohibit California or 12:45
6
7 the BSC from providing the text of the California
12:46
7
8 Electrical Code to the public on its website?
12:46
8
9
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 12:46
9
10 legal conclusion.
12:46
10
11
THE WITNESS: That, I don't know.
12:46
11
12
MR. YEN: Same objection.
12:46
12
13
MR. NERCESSIAN: All right. We can call it 12:46
13
14 lunch.
12:46
14
15
THE WITNESS: Okay.
12:46
15
16
VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're off the
12:46
16
12:46 17 record. It's
.
17
12:46
18
18
(Noon recess taken)
12:46
19
VIDEO OPERATOR: We're back on the record. 01:47 19
20
20 It's 1:47.
01:47
21
21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:47
22
22
Q. So earlier in the day, we were discussing
01:47
23
23 the nine-point criteria analysis that CBSC and State 01:47
24
24 agencies used to determine whether to adopt the
01:47
25
25 language of a model code provision. Do you recall 01:47

1 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. And is there a separate contract for each

12:45

Page 104

Q. Is another one of the nine-point criteria
01:49
whether the proposed building standards are within 01:49
the parameters established by enabling legislation 01:49
and are not expressly within the exclusive
01:49
jurisdiction of another agency?
01:49
A. Yes.
01:49
Q. Is another one of the criteria whether the 01:49
public interest requires the adoption of the building 01:49
standards?
01:49
A. I'm sorry, you'd have to repeat that one. 01:49
Q. Yes.
01:49
A. I didn't hear it. I'm sorry.
01:49
Q. Is another of the nine-point criteria
01:49
whether the public interest requires the adoption of 01:49
the building standards?
01:49
A. It's in the best public interest, yes.
01:49
Q. Is another one of the criteria whether the 01:49
proposed building standards are not unreasonable,
01:49
arbitrary, unfair or capricious in whole or in part? 01:49
A. Yes.
01:49
Q. Is another of the nine-point criteria
01:49
whether the cost to the public is reasonable based on 01:50
the overall benefit to be derived from the building 01:50
standards?
01:50
A. Yes.
01:50

Page 103

Page 105

27 (Pages 102 - 105)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. Is one of the criteria whether the proposed

01:50

2 building standards are not unnecessarily vague or
3 ambiguous in whole or in part?

01:50

01:50

4

A. Yes.

5

Q. Is another of the criteria whether the

01:50
01:50

6 applicable national specifications, public standards 01:50
7 and model codes have been incorporated therein as
8 provided in this part where appropriate?
9
10

A. Yes.

01:50

01:50

01:50

Q. Is another of the criteria whether the

01:50

11 format of the proposed building standards is

01:50

12 consistent with that adopted by the commission?
13

A. Yes.

14

Q. Is another of the criteria whether the

01:50

01:50
01:50

15 proposed building standards, if they promote fire and 01:50
16 panic safety as determined by the State Fire Marshal, 01:51
17 have the written approval of the State Fire Marshal? 01:51
18

A. Yes.

19

Q. Can you think of any criteria other than

01:51
01:51

20 these that I went through that comprise the

01:51

21 nine-point criteria we were discussing previously?
22

A. I can't think of any others, no.

23

Q. Do you recognize -- do any of the criteria

01:51

01:51
01:51

24 apply to the adoption of the NEC into the CEC?
25

1 legal conclusion.
2

01:51

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

01:51

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
4

01:51

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 01:51
Page 106

01:51

Q. All right. So we were previously discussing 01:51

5 contracts that the California Building Standards

01:52

6 Commission has with various publishers; do you recall 01:52
7 that?

01:52

8

A. Yes.

9

Q. Let's mark this exhibit next in order. I

10 believe we're at 7.
11

(Exhibit 7 marked)

01:52
01:52

01:52
01:52

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
13

01:52

Q. You have been handed Exhibit 7. Do you

14 recognize this document?

01:52

01:52

15

A. Yes.

16

Q. And what is this document?

01:52

17

A. Appears to be a Standard Agreement between

01:52
01:52

18 the Division of -- excuse me -- Department of General 01:53
19 Services, California Building Standards Commission,
20 and NFPA, National Fire Protection Association.
21

01:53

Q. And here at the bottom of the page, there's

22 a signature. Is that yours?

01:53

01:53

23

A. Yes.

24

Q. What do you recall about the negotiation of

25 this document?

01:53

01:53
01:53

01:53

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. That's kind of a broad question.
01:53
Q. I can rephrase it. What was your role in
01:53
negotiating this agreement?
01:53
A. Reviewing the document.
01:53
Q. Did you participate in the negotiations of 01:53
this agreement in any other way?
01:53
A. I don't know what you mean by "negotiation." 01:53
I reviewed the document.
01:53
Q. Did you propose edits to the document?
01:53
A. Yes, some.
01:54
Q. Which ones? Strike that.
01:54
Which edits did you propose to the document? 01:54
MR. YEN: Caution you not to reveal any
01:54
communications you had with your attorney.
01:54
THE WITNESS: Yeah. And, well, I can't
01:54
recall because it was quite some time ago.
01:54
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:54
Q. What is the maximum amount of this
01:54
agreement?
01:54
A. I don't know off the top of my head. It's a 01:54
zero dollar contract as far as I know.
01:54
Q. And why is it a zero dollar contract?
01:54
A. It's how we enter into a contract with the 01:54
publishers.
01:54
Q. What does it mean that it's a zero dollar
01:54
Page 108

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

contract?
01:54
MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for a legal
01:54
conclusion.
01:54
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
01:54
I'm sorry, I can't answer that. I don't
01:54
know.
01:54
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:55
Q. Does the contract itself state anywhere that 01:55
it's a zero dollar contract?
01:55
A. I don't know. The front page does.
01:55
Q. And where is that?
01:55
A. On item three.
01:55
Q. Like to call your attention to Section 4-A 01:55
of the contract. 4-A of Exhibit A. My apologies. 01:55
Do you see that section?
01:55
A. Is that about the third page in?
01:55
Q. Yes.
01:55
A. Okay.
01:55
Q. This provision reflects a license grant from 01:55
NFPA to CBSC; is that correct?
01:55
MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for a legal
01:56
conclusion.
01:56
THE WITNESS: I'd have to read the whole
01:56
thing.
01:56
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:56

Page 107

Page 109

28 (Pages 106 - 109)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. I'd like to just focus on the language that

01:56

1 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

2 states "NFPA hereby grants CBSC a nonexclusive,

01:56

3 nontransferrable sublicense to use and copy all or

01:56

4 any portion of the 2014 NEC, NFPA supplements and

01:56

2

01:59

Q. Do you have any understanding of what this

01:59

3 contract allows the NFPA to do?

01:59
01:59

4

MR. YEN: Same objection.

5 revisions to the 2014 NEC (hereinafter referred to as 01:56

5

THE WITNESS: It's just a broad

6 'licensed property'), solely to create and publish

6 understanding that we are allowed to utilize the most 01:59

01:56

7 the 2016 CEC." Do you see that language?

01:56

8

A. I see it.

01:56

9

Q. What do you understand that language to

10 allow CBSC to do?
11
13

7 recent edition of the model code to level the next
8 edition of the California codes.

01:56

01:56

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for a legal

12 conclusion.

01:56

01:59
01:59

12 the 2016 California Electrical Code?
01:56
01:56

13

01:57

15

16

01:57

16 your question.

"Hereinafter" -- do you have any

17 understanding of what this language in the contract

01:57

01:57

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure I follow

MR. YEN: Same objection.

20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Same objection as well. 01:57

02:00

20 California Electrical Code?

21

THE WITNESS: Yeah. It was a long time ago, 01:57

21

24

01:57

23

Q. Do you have any understanding of what CBSC

01:57

MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.

2

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Calls for a legal

3 conclusion.
4

01:57
01:57
01:57

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

01:57

9
11

Q. Why does CBSC negotiate these contracts for
01:57

16

01:57
01:58

02:00
02:00

7 CBSC's website in a read-only format." Do you see
9
11

01:58

01:58

18 the most recent model code on a triennial basis.

A. I actually didn't follow where you're

02:00

02:00

Q. Section 5-A-2. And I can read the language
A. I see the language, yes.

14

Q. To your knowledge, has the NFPA ever

02:01

16 inconsequential errors?

01:58
01:58

17

A. I don't recall.

18

01:58

02:01

20 for minor or inconsequential errors?
21

A. Yes.

22

01:58

22

Q. Under what circumstances?

23

A. There are what's called an errata so if

24

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't have an answer

25 for you on that one.

01:58

02:01

19 read-only format on its website a special supplement 02:01

01:58

01:58

02:01

Q. To your knowledge, has CBSC ever posted in

21 code to create a triennial version of its code?
MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for a legal

02:01

02:01

20 receives in return to allowing CBSC to use the model 01:58

23 conclusion.

02:00

02:01

15 provided to CBSC a special supplement for minor or

01:58

Q. What is your understanding of what NFPA

02:00

02:00

13

Q. And how does CBSC use the code every two
A. We use it per the building standards law to

02:00

02:00

4 "Special supplements for minor or inconsequential

12 again if it will help.

17 adopt -- for the State agencies to review and adopt
19

02:00

Q. Here on Section 5, paragraph two, I want to

10 pointing to.

THE WITNESS: In order to use the model code 01:57

15 years pursuant to a contract like this?

02:00
Page 112

8 that language?

01:57

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
14

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.

6 website and shall be provided to CBSC for posting on 02:00
01:57

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 01:57

12 every two years.

02:00

02:00

5 errors and/or changes shall be posted to the NFPA

01:57

10 legal conclusion.

MR. YEN: Same objection and calls for a

3 call your attention to this sentence that reads

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'd have to review it.

8 each triennial edition of the code?

2

02:00

02:00

1 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
01:57

5 I don't know off the top of my head.
7

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That

24 legal conclusion.

25 does to effectuate the commitments of this contract? 01:57
25
Page 110

02:00

02:00

22 mischaracterizes her testimony.

1

02:00

19 contract allows the NFPA to do concerning the 2016

01:57

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

01:59

01:59

Q. So you have no understanding of what the

19

22 so I don't recall.

01:59

01:59

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

01:57

01:59

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for a legal

14 conclusion.

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

18 means?

01:59

Q. And do you have any understanding of what

11 the contract allows the NFPA to do with respect to

01:56

14 incomplete. You left out the rest of the sentence.

01:59

01:59

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's also

Q.

01:59

02:01
02:01
02:01
02:02

24 there are minor or inconsequential changes to the

02:02

25 code that are nonregulatory, there are supplement

01:59

02:02
Page 113

Page 111

29 (Pages 110 - 113)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 pages -- I'm sorry -- there are errata pages

02:02

1

A. No.

2 provided, and those help the code user know that this 02:02

2

Q. And how does CBSC effectuate that agreement? 02:05

3 is a minor error in the code, and it's published on a 02:02

3

A. I'm not following the question.

4 different piece of paper, a color buff paper, and

02:02

4

Q. I can rephrase it. What steps does CBSC

5 that tells the code user there's, you know, like a

02:02

5 take, when developing the California Electrical Code, 02:06

6 numbering error or grammatical error.
7

02:02

Q. What are other examples of minor or

02:05
02:06

6 to track whether language is adopted or not?

02:02

02:06

7

8 inconsequential errors that CBSC has corrected in the 02:02
9 past?

02:05

02:02

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

8

THE WITNESS: Well, we spoke to the code

9 adoption process earlier. So if a State agency

02:06
02:06

02:06

10

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

02:02

10 doesn't adopt a specific section, it's shown in

11

THE WITNESS: That it might not be a CBSC

02:02

11 strikeout, and that information is forwarded to the

02:06
02:06

12 error, it might be -- it could be a model code error, 02:02

12 publisher, and then the publisher publishes it based 02:06

13 it could be a printing error, it could be -- yeah.

13 on the agreement that we have with them in the

02:02

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:03

15

Q. Any other examples?

16

A. Not that I can think of.

17

Q. And these errata are posted to the CBSC

02:03

16

02:03
02:03
02:03

Q. Where on the CBSC website does CBSC provide

THE WITNESS: On the codes page that you

02:03

A. Yes.

6

02:07

02:07

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:07

Q. I want to call your attention to Section 6-G 02:07

24 at the bottom of the page, and I just want to

02:07
02:07
Page 116

1 authorized agency and licensee shall thereafter

02:07

2 publish and make available for sale to the State of

02:03

3 California." Do you see that language?

02:03

5

THE WITNESS: I can't -- I don't have an

02:03
25 highlight this language that states "NFPA and/or
Page 114

02:03

Q. The codes page that we previously

4 reviewed --

02:03

02:03

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

20

23

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

25

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:07

21 answer for you on that one.

02:03

24

02:06

19
02:03

21 website. I don't know off the top of my head.

1 referred to.

02:06
02:06

18 it always start with the model code itself?

A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know if it's

23 information about this errata?

02:06

Q. When a State agency is considering whether

17 to adopt a specific section of the model code, does

02:03

20 from the NFPA website or the BNi website or our
22

02:06

02:06

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:03

18 website itself?
19

14 contract.

02:07

02:07

02:03

A. Yes.

5

Q. -- in this case? I want to call your

4

02:03

Q. Is it accurate that the NFPA makes available 02:07

02:07

6 copies of the code for sale to the State of

02:07

7 attention to Section 6-B of this contract, and do you 02:04

7 California?

8 see this language which states "All those portions of 02:04

8

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

9 the licensed property, be it chapters, sections,

02:04

9

THE WITNESS: The Building Standards

10 provisions, tables, appendices, reference, etc.,

02:04

02:08
02:08
02:08

10 Commission can also purchase the code, if they so

02:08

11 which CBSC or any authorized agency does not adopt as 02:04

11 choose, as can other State agencies that need to use 02:08

12 part of Title 24, shall be shown with a strike

12 the electrical code if they so choose.

02:04

13 through the language in the code. NFPA will show

02:04

02:08

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:08

14 non-adoptive language in legislated (strike through) 02:04

14

02:08

15 text and will note as not adopted by the State on

15 California Electrical Code, they need to purchase the 02:08

02:05

16 each page." Do you see that language?

02:05

17

A. Uh-huh. Yes. Sorry.

18

Q. Why not just omit deleted language --

19

02:05

Q. -- from a model code?

22

A. That's just the agreement that we have with

24

THE WITNESS: It's a choice.

02:05

22

02:05

02:08

Q. What other choices are available to a State

21 agency that needs to use the code?

02:08

02:08

A. It's available online through our website to 02:08

23 the publisher's website for free. There are local
02:05

02:08

02:08

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
20

02:05

Q. Do you understand any reason for that

25 agreement?

02:05

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

18

02:05

21

02:08

17

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

23 NFPA.

16 California Electrical Code from the NFPA?

02:05

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Q. So if a State agency needs to use the

02:08

24 law libraries that have copies of the code, and local 02:08

02:05
Page 115

25 jurisdictions also make available the code for free. 02:09
Page 117

30 (Pages 114 - 117)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. Why might a State agency need to use a code

2 such as the California Electrical Code?

02:09

02:09

3

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:09

4

MR. NERCESSIAN: I can rephrase.

02:09

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
6

02:09

Q. Are you aware of any reason why a State

02:09

7 agency might need to use a code such as the
8 California Electrical Code?
9
10

02:09
02:09

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's vague. 02:09
THE WITNESS: When I worked at the

02:09

11 Department of General Services, in my architectural

02:09

12 associate capacity, we had to use the codes to design 02:09
13 and construct state buildings or leased facilities,

02:09

14 and we would use the codes, and the Department of

02:09

15 General Services would purchase the codes for the
16 staff members to use.

02:09

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

02:09

02:09

Q. And is it possible to design and construct

02:09

19 those State buildings or leased facilities without

02:09

20 reviewing the code?
21

02:10

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

22 speculation.
23

02:10

02:10

THE WITNESS: Well, a licensed professional

02:10

24 would not do that because you have to follow the
25 code. It's possible not to purchase it. It's

02:10

02:10

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

THE WITNESS: I did both.
02:11
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:11
Q. And when accessing it online -- strike that. 02:11
A. Can I correct my last statement?
02:12
Q. Sure.
02:12
A. I personally did not purchase the code.
02:12
Q. When you purchased the code, did you receive 02:12
any additional access privileges online?
02:12
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
02:12
Mischaracterizes.
02:12
THE WITNESS: I personally didn't access the 02:12
code. I mean -- I'm sorry.
02:12
And I apologize.
02:12
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Oh, no. That's all
02:12
right.
02:12
THE WITNESS: I personally didn't purchase 02:12
the code. That's what I corrected in my earlier
02:12
statement. I apologize.
02:12
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:12
Q. Yes. Who did purchase the code?
02:12
A. The company that I worked for.
02:12
Q. And what was that?
02:12
A. It was Department of General Services.
02:12
Q. And with the department's purchase of the
02:12
code, were there any additional online access
02:12

Page 118

Page 120

1 possible to go online and use the code.

02:10

1 privileges that you received?

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:10

2

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's vague. 02:12

02:12

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware that they

Q. But a licensed professional working in an

02:10

3

4 architectural capacity needs to consult the code

02:10

4 purchased an online access version. I review it

3

5 before they can design and construct a building?
6

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

7 speculation.

10

02:13

Q. To your knowledge, what local jurisdictions

02:13
02:13

02:13

10

02:10

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:13

11

02:10

Q. In your experience as a licensed

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

9 free?

02:10

A. I can't speak for all licensed

02:12

8 make the California Electrical Code available for

02:10

Q. Is that true?

5 online through what was available online.
7

11 professionals. I can only speak for myself.
12

02:10

02:10

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
9

02:10

02:12
02:12

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

02:13

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:10

02:13

13 professional, you reviewed the code in designing and 02:10

13

14 constructing the buildings you built?

14 jurisdictions also make available the code for free. 02:13

02:10

15 Do you know of any?

15

A. Yes.

16

Q. Why did General Services purchase the code

02:10

17 instead of seeing it online?
18
20

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:13

A. I can't speak to any off the top of my head, 02:13

02:11
02:11

18

A. I've personally not gone to a local

22

02:11

Q. In your past experience reviewing the code,

02:11

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

02:13
02:13

20 jurisdiction and asked for it, so I can't verify
21 that.

02:11

02:13

Q. Can you identify one?

19

02:11

24 did you purchase a copy, or did you review it online? 02:11
25

16

02:13

17 but that is part of building standards law.

02:11

THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I don't

21 know.
23

02:10

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

19 speculation.

Q. Your previous testimony stated that local

Q. Have you ever gone to a law library that

23 maintains the code?
24

25
02:11
Page 119

02:14

02:14

A. I have not.

02:14

02:14
02:14

Q. Are you aware, off the top of your head, of

02:14
Page 121

31 (Pages 118 - 121)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

the closest law library that would maintain a version 02:14
of the code?
02:14
A. I don't know.
02:14
Q. When you say that local jurisdictions may
02:14
make available versions of the code for free, what 02:14
types of jurisdictions are you referring to?
02:14
MR. YEN: Objection. Mischaracterizes
02:14
previous testimony.
02:14
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:14
Q. Do local -- I can rephrase it.
02:14
Do local jurisdictions include cities?
02:14
A. My reference was to -- and this is a broad 02:15
statement because they're called different things in 02:15
different local jurisdictions, would be a local
02:15
building department, if you will, but that could be a 02:15
broad statement.
02:15
Q. Is that because a local building department 02:15
might be for a county or a city or subdivision, and 02:15
it just depends?
02:15
A. That's correct.
02:15
Q. Are you aware whether any of those local
02:15
building departments get the code for free?
02:15
A. Not aware. I don't know.
02:15
Q. Don't know one way or another?
02:15
A. I do not know.
02:15

1 broad of a question for me to be able to answer.
2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

02:17
02:17

Q. Can you name one significant effect that the 02:17

4 code has on the state's built environment and its
5 citizens?

02:17

02:17

6

A. I would say fire issues.

7

Q. Because the code addresses fire issues?

02:17

8

A. Correct.

9

Q. Does the code address any other safety

02:17

02:18
02:18

10 issues?

02:18

11

A. Yes.

02:18

12

Q. What's another safety issue that the code

13 addresses?
14

02:18

02:18

A. Structural, mechanical performance,

02:18

15 accessibility, concrete strength.

02:18

16

Q. Anything else?

17

A. There's probably too many for -- I mean

02:18

18 that's all I can think of at the time.

02:18

02:18

19

Q. What do you mean by "fire issues"?

20

A. So fire safety issues, so egress of

02:18
02:18

21 buildings, combustibility of products.
22

02:18

Q. With respect to egress of buildings, does

02:19

23 the code require that certain types of buildings be

02:19

24 built in certain ways with respect to means of exit? 02:19
25

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

02:19
Page 124

1

THE WITNESS: That's a very broad question.

Page 122
1

Q. Does CBSC take any steps to give those local 02:15

2 building departments access to the code?
3

02:16

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. I don't know what you mean by "access." We

02:16

3

4 have the viewable format on our website. They can

02:16

4 respect to egress of buildings?

5 view it like anyone else.
6

02:16

A. Correct. Uh-huh.

02:16

9

Q. I want to call your attention to Section

A. Yes.

Q. What might be one example of such a

7 requirement?
8

10 H-1, and this one contains the heading "Time is of

02:16

Q. Any others?

10

02:19

02:19
02:19
02:19

A. Fire sprinkler issues, installation of fire

11 the Essence" and contains the statement "Because the 02:16

11 sprinklers.

12 code may have significant effects on the safety of

12

02:16

02:19

A. The width of exit corridors.

9

02:16

02:19

02:19

6

02:16

02:16

8

Q. Does the code contain any requirements with

5

Q. By clicking through on the links to the

7 publishers' websites?

02:19

02:19

02:19

02:20

Q. Are you aware of any consequences that might 02:20

13 the state's built environment and its citizens, time 02:16

13 flow from not having an exit corridor that is as wide 02:20

14 is of the essence in performing the herein duties."

14 as the code prescribes?

15 Would you agree with that statement?

02:16
02:16

15

16

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

17

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean I agree with it, 02:17

18 yes.
20

25

02:20
02:20

02:20
02:20
02:20

Q. What might happen if -- strike that.

02:17

20

21 as -- strike that.

02:17

22
02:17

02:17

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I think it's too

17 Sorry.

02:17

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

24 foundation.

THE WITNESS: That's a broad question.

19

02:17

Q. What significant effects does the code have

22 its citizens?

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

16

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

21 on the safety of the state's built environment and
23

02:17

02:17

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:20

What might happen if an exit corridor is not 02:20

23 width of an exit corridor is not compliant with what 02:21
24 the code prescribes?

02:17

25
Page 123

02:20

What consequences might a builder see if the 02:20
02:21

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:21
Page 125

32 (Pages 122 - 125)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

2

THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's too broad of a

3 question for me. Sorry.

02:21
02:21

02:21

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
Q. You can still answer the question, though.

6

A. I don't have an answer for you, though. I

7 don't -- I don't know.
8

02:23

Q. Do those agencies include, for instance, the 02:23

4 Department of Housing and Community Development?

02:21

5

02:21

A. They may have for some, but as far as I

7 for enforcement of housing.

Q. Are you aware of what any consequences might 02:21

9 be if the width of an exit corridor is not compliant 02:21

8

Q. And when you say "local jurisdictions," you

10 discussed?

11

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:21

11

12

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Calls for a legal

14

02:21

02:21

13

THE WITNESS: All I'm familiar with is that

02:24
02:24

02:24

12 building department, yes.

13 conclusion. Objection.

02:24

02:24

9 mean local building departments as we previously

02:21

A. Yes, the broad definition of a local

02:24
02:24

Q. Do you know whether the Division of the

02:21
02:21

02:24

14 State Architect plays any role in enforcing
15 compliance with the California Building Codes?

15 you have to have a certain amount of distance in a

02:24

02:24

6 know, they delegate that to the local jurisdictions

02:21

10 with what the code prescribes?

02:23

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

02:21

5

1 codes.

02:24
02:24

16 corridor for a certain amount of occupant load. I

02:21

16

A. For State buildings, they do.

17 can't speculate on what would happen if it wasn't

02:22

17

Q. Do you know what kind of enforcement actions 02:24

18 there, if it wasn't available.

02:22

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
20

18 they might take?
02:22

Q. So you have no knowledge or awareness of

02:24
02:24

19

02:22

A. I do not.

02:24

20

Q. Do you know whether the office of the State

02:24

21 what might happen if a building design didn't comply? 02:22

21 Fire Marshal takes any actions to enforce compliance 02:24

22

22 with the California Building Codes?

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation

23 and form.
24

02:22

02:22

23

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: And calls for a legal

25 conclusion.

02:22

02:22

02:25

A. I apologize. What was the last State agency 02:25

24 you requested? I thought that was what we were
25 talking about.

02:25

02:25

Page 126
1

THE WITNESS: It's a broad question that I

2 don't have an answer for.

02:22

Q. What consequences could happen to a

6 Electrical Code requirements?
7
9

02:22
02:22
02:22
02:22

02:25

7 California Building Codes for school constructions
9
10

A. Yes.

02:25

02:25
02:25

Q. And are you aware of what actions the

02:25

11 Division of the State Architect takes when enforcing 02:25
02:23

13

Q. You can't name one possible consequence?

14

A. No.

15

Q. Does the California Building Standards

12 with respect to school construction and essential

02:23

02:23

13 service buildings?

02:25

02:25

14
02:23

02:23

18

A. No. We are not an enforcement agency.

19

Q. What enforcement agencies are you aware of

A. No.

15

02:23

16 Commission play any role in monitoring compliance
17 with the California Building Codes?

02:25

Q. So it's your testimony that the Division of

8 and essential service buildings?

02:23

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:25
02:25

6 the State Architect enforces compliance with the

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't work for the

11 consequences of that.

02:25

5

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 02:22

10 California license bureau, so I don't know the

02:25

A. Oh. Yes. I'm sorry, I misspoke. The

4 construction and essential service buildings.

02:22

8 speculation and a legal conclusion.

Q. It was the Division of State Architect.

3 Division of the State Architect does for school

02:22

5 contractor for failure to meet the California

1
2

02:22

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
4

02:22

Page 128

02:25

Q. Do you know whether the Office of the State

17 with the California Building Codes?

02:23
02:23

18

02:26

A. I don't know what they do. I don't know

02:26

19 what they do in terms of enforcement, but they do -- 02:26

20 that monitor compliance with the California Building 02:23

20

Q. Do you know whether they enforce?

21 Codes?

21

A. Yes, for State building.

02:23

02:25

16 Fire Marshal takes any actions to enforce compliance 02:25

02:26
02:26

22

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

02:23

22

Q. For State buildings?

23

THE WITNESS: There's various State agencies 02:23

23

A. Yes.

24

Q. Do you know whether the Office of Statewide

24 that have authority to enforce the codes, and then
25 there are the local jurisdictions that enforce the

02:23
02:23

02:26
02:26
02:26

25 Health Planning and Development takes any actions to 02:26
Page 127
Page 129

33 (Pages 126 - 129)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 enforce compliance with the California Building
2 Codes?

02:26

02:26

3

A. Yes. For hospital safety, yes.

02:26

4

Q. Do you know what actions they take?

5

A. I do not.

6

Q. Do you know whether the California Energy

02:26

02:26
02:26

7 Commission takes any actions to enforce compliance
8 with the California Building Codes?
9
10

02:26

02:26

A. I do not know.

02:26

Q. Do you know whether the California

02:26

11 Department of Public Health takes any actions to

02:26

12 enforce compliance with the California Building

02:26

13 Codes?

02:26

14

A. I do not know that.

15

Q. Do you know whether the California State

02:26
02:26

16 Lands Commission takes any action to enforce with
17 respect to California Building Codes?

02:26

02:27

18

A. I do not know.

19

Q. Do you know whether the Board of State and

02:27
02:27

20 Community Corrections takes any actions to enforce
21 compliance with California Building Codes?
22

A. I do not.

23

Q. How about -- the last one is the Building

02:27

24 Standards Commission, so strike that.
25

02:27
02:27

Want to call your attention back to

02:27
02:27
02:27

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

strike that.
02:29
Do you know whether any free public access 02:29
to the 2016 California Electrical Code was available 02:29
as of July 1st, 2016?
02:29
MR. FEE: Objection to form, calls for
02:29
speculation.
02:29
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.
02:29
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:29
Q. Pass you a document I'd like marked next in 02:30
order. Should be 8.
02:30
(Exhibit 8 marked)
02:30
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:30
Q. You've been passed a document marked for
02:30
identification as Exhibit 8. Do you recognize this 02:30
document?
02:30
A. Uh-huh. Yes.
02:30
Q. And would you have received this document? 02:30
A. I am a member of the DGS Sacramento staff
02:30
email, so it's possible that I received this, yes. 02:30
Q. What is this document?
02:30
A. That's an email from Alex Hunter who was our 02:30
web person at the time.
02:31
Q. And when is this document dated?
02:31
A. 8-1-2016.
02:31
Q. I want to call your attention to the first 02:31

Page 130

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Section H of Exhibit 7.
02:27
1
A. Uh-huh.
02:27
2
Q. Looking at sentence two now that says "The 02:27 3
July 1st, 2016, date to publish the code is of
02:27
4
critical importance." Do you see that language?
02:27
5
A. Yes.
02:27
6
Q. Why is it important that the code gets
02:27
7
published at that date?
02:27
8
A. The commission sets the effective date,
02:27
9
which is 180 days beyond that date, and so the
02:28 10
publication must occur 180 days prior to the
02:28
11
effective date. That's part of building standards 02:28
12
law.
02:28
13
Q. So that's a legal mandate?
02:28
14
A. Yes.
02:28
15
Q. Are you aware whether that -- strike that. 02:28
16
Do you know whether the 2016 California
02:28 17
Electrical Code met that July 1st, 2016, publication 02:28 18
date?
02:28
19
A. Yes.
02:28
20
Q. Do you know whether the California
02:28
21
Electrical Code was available on the NFPA reading
02:28 22
room as of that date?
02:28
23
A. I do not know.
02:28
24
Q. Do you know whether any free access was -- 02:28 25

Page 132
sentence of this document which says "Online portions 02:31
of the 2016 Building Standards Code published/printed 02:31
by ICC are now linked on our code's web page." Do
you see that?
A. I do.

02:31

Q. Are you aware whether the links were in

02:31

working order at any point before August 1st, 2016?
A. I don't recall.

02:31

02:31

Q. And according to this email, the California
Electrical Code, as of August 1st, 2016 -- strike
that.

02:31

02:31

02:31
02:31

02:31
Was the California Electrical Code published 02:32

by the NFPA available for online access at that time? 02:32
A. I don't recall.

02:32

Q. According to the email, does it appear that
there was online access available at that time?

02:32
02:32

MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:32
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

02:32

BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:32

Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the

02:32

statement in this email that says "the California

02:32

Electrical Code published by NFPA and the California 02:32
Mechanical and Plumbing Codes published by IAPMO are 02:32
not yet available for online access"?

02:32

A. That would be online access from our

Page 131

02:32
Page 133

34 (Pages 130 - 133)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 website. I can't state whether or not the model code 02:32

1

2 developers had it on their website yet.

2 identified as Exhibit A, Attachment A, and Exhibit A, 02:37

3

02:32

Q. So you read this to say just the link wasn't 02:32

4 up?

02:32

Q. And you don't know whether the electrical

A. Yes.

5

6

Q. Do those complimentary copies go to any

02:37

02:32

Q. And what is IAPMO?

7 attachments?

02:37

8

A. I don't know.

02:37

9

02:37

6 organization or person not identified on these

02:33

7 code was accessible on the NFPA website?
9

02:37

4

A. Correct.

A. I don't know that.

02:37

3 Attachment B, of this document?

02:32

5

8

Q. So those are the depository libraries

Q. I see on these attachments there are some

02:33
02:33

02:37

02:37

10

A. IAPMO.

02:33

10 libraries that are called Complete Depository

11

Q. IAPMO.

02:33

11 Libraries and other libraries called Selective

02:38

12

A. Is the International Association of Plumbing 02:33

12 Depository Libraries. Do you see that?

02:38

13 Mechanical Officials. It's another publisher that we 02:33

13

A. I do.

14 use.

14

02:38

Q. What's the difference between those

15

02:33

Q. And what part of Title 24 does IAPMO deliver 02:33

16 model codes with respect to?
17

Q. Want to call your attention back to

02:38

02:33
02:33

02:34

15 designations?

02:38

16

02:33

A. The Uniform Mechanical Code and the Uniform

18 Plumbing Code which are adopted by State agencies.
19

02:38

A. I don't know.

02:38

17

Q. Another line down in Section K, it says

02:38

18 "NFPA may wholesale the code to other resellers in
19 California." Do you see that?

02:38

02:38

20 Exhibit 7 and want to call your attention to Section 02:34

20

A. I do see that.

21 K-1 of the agreement. K-1, it's on page seven of

21

Q. Do you know whether NFPA has?

22

A. I do not know.

23

Q. Do you know whether NFPA has made any

22 seven of Exhibit A.

02:34

02:34

23

A. Seven of seven. Okay.

24

Q. All right. Section K-1 states "NFPA shall

02:34
02:34

02:38

24 efforts to deliver the code to print disabled

25 establish a distribution method in consultation with 02:34
25 individuals?
Page 134
1 the CBSC." Do you see that language?
2

A. Yes.

3

02:34

Q. What distribution method has NFPA

Page 136

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lacks

02:35

6

02:35

A. In context with this item? I don't know in

8 what context this is referring, so --

5
02:35
02:35

11 2016 California Electrical Code?

02:36

02:36

A. Well, it would be how it applies with the

Q. Do you know whether NFPA has made any

02:39

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

9 foundation.
10
12

02:39

02:39
02:39

02:39

THE WITNESS: I don't know that.

11 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:36

02:38
02:39

6 efforts to deliver the code to mobility impaired
8

02:36

10 with NFPA regarding any distribution method for the

THE WITNESS: I don't know that.

7 individuals?

02:36

Q. Do you recall any discussions you have had

02:38

02:38

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Q. Are you aware of any distribution method?

7

3

02:35

A. I don't recall.

02:38

02:38

02:38

2 foundation and calls for speculation.

5

12

1

02:35

4 established in consulting with the CBSC?

9

02:38
02:38

02:39
02:39

Q. Do you know whether NFPA has made any

02:39

13 rest of the contract statement. So, for example, one 02:36

13 efforts to deliver the code to individuals that lack 02:39

14 distribution method would be linked to our website.

14 sight?

15

Q. And you're not aware of any distribution

02:36

02:36

16 method aside from that?
17

A. No, not right now, no.

02:36

18

Q. The next line down says "The NFPA shall

15

02:36

17

19 distribute a minimum of 200 complimentary copies of
21 July 1st, 2016." Do you see that?

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

16 foundation.
02:36

20 the code as per list provided by CBSC on or before

02:39

02:36
02:37

02:37

THE WITNESS: I do not know that.

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
19

02:39
02:39

Q. Has the CBSC taken any steps to deliver the

20 code to those who are print disabled?

02:39

02:39

21
22

02:37

A. We've not received a request for that, no.

Q. Has CBSC taken any steps to deliver the code 02:39

22

A. I do.

23

Q. For whom are those 200 complimentary copies? 02:37

23 to individuals who are mobility impaired?

24

A. The depository libraries that are listed in

24

A. No.

25

Q. Has the CBSC made any effort to make

25 the contract.

02:39

02:39

02:37

02:37
Page 135

02:39
02:40

02:40
02:40
Page 137

35 (Pages 134 - 137)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 available the code to those who lack sight?
2
3

02:40

A. We've not been requested that, no.

02:40

Q. To your knowledge, has the State of

02:40

4 California taken any efforts to make the code

02:40

5 available to those who have accessibility issues?
6

7 foundation.
8

02:40

02:40

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I can't answer for the

9 State of California.

02:40

02:40

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
11

02:40

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

02:40

Q. But you're not aware of any efforts that the 02:40

12 State has taken to make the code available to those
13 who do have accessibility issues?
14
15

A. I don't know.

02:40

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Mischaracterizes her

16 testimony.
17

02:40

02:40

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

02:40

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
19

02:40

02:40

02:40

Q. Just have a few more questions about this

02:41

20 document. Like to call your attention to Exhibit A, 02:41
21 Attachment C, and this page, you'll see, has the

02:41

22 heading -- the heading reads "2016 Intervening Code
23 Adoption Cycle Timeline." Do you see that?
24

A. I do.

25

02:41

02:41

02:41

Q. What is depicted in this chart?

02:41

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. And that's -- 1-1-17 is the effective date 02:43
of the 2016 edition of the California Electrical
02:43
Code?
02:43
A. It's the effective date of all of the codes, 02:43
yes, that's correct.
02:43
Q. Want to call your attention to Exhibit B of 02:43
this agreement. It's almost at the end.
02:44
A. Okay. Before C?
02:44
Q. No. It's the second to last and the last
02:44
page.
02:44
A. Oh, sorry. Okay. Got it. I was going in 02:44
alphabetical order there. All right.
02:44
Q. Yeah. So I want to call your attention to 02:44
Section B-1 -02:44
A. Uh-huh.
02:44
Q. -- which states that "NFPA shall make the
02:44
code," and I'm excerpting language here, "available 02:44
to the State, local governmental agencies and the
02:44
general public at a price established by NFPA." Do 02:44
you see that language?
02:45
A. I see the language.
02:45
Q. Is there any statement anywhere in this
02:45
agreement that specifies what that price is?
02:45
A. I don't know without reading the whole
02:45
agreement.
02:45

Page 138
1

A. Actually, what's depicted is the 2015

1

02:42

2 Triennial Code Adoption Cycle Timeline that we make
3 available -- that the BSC makes available on its

02:42

02:45

02:45

Q. Do you know whether the code -- strike that. 02:45

5

02:42

A. I am not.

4

02:42

5 the timing, that's a rough outline of the timing of

Q. Are you aware of the price that NFPA makes

2 the quote available for?
3

02:42

4 website for interested parties, and it talks about

Page 140

02:45

Do you know whether the NFPA makes the code

02:45

6 the cycle, from pre-cycle all the way to publication 02:42

6 available to the State for the same price that it

02:45

7 and effective date. It's pretty blurry, so I can't

7 makes it available to the general public?

02:45

8 tell you the details.
9

02:42

8

10 been placed of the 2016?

02:42

11

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Vague.

12

THE WITNESS: What occurs?

14

02:42

02:45

11 the general public for access to the code?
12

02:42

13

02:42

Q. It looks like -- if I'm reading this

Q. Do you know whether the NFPA charges local

02:45

10 government agencies the same price as it charges to

02:42

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. I don't know.

9

02:42

Q. So what occurs after the publication has

A. I do not know.

02:46
02:46

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: I'm going to object to

14 that as vague.

02:42

02:45

15 correctly, it looks like there is a timeline leading 02:42

15

MR. NERCESSIAN: What was that?

16 up to July 1st, 2016. Do you see that?

16

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Just preserving

02:43

17 objection that that was vague.

17

A. Uh-huh.

02:43

18

Q. And then there's activity afterwards leading 02:43

19 up through January 1st, 2017. What occurs during
20 that intervening period?
21

02:46
02:46

02:46

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:43

19

Q. Going to hand you one document. We can mark 02:46

20 this next in order. I believe it's 9.

02:43

21

A. I can't read what the graphic says, and it's 02:43

(Exhibit 9 marked)

02:46
02:46

22 not what occurs in the intervening period. It is the 02:43

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

23 wait period from the publication date to the

02:43

23

24 effective date, which is, as I can barely read, 1-1

02:43

24 identification as Exhibit 9. Do you recognize this

25 of '17 on the far right side.

02:46

02:46

25 document?

02:43

02:46

Q. You've been handed a document marked for

Page 139

02:46
02:46

02:46
Page 141

36 (Pages 138 - 141)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. No.
02:46
1
Q. Do you know what the NCB coordination
02:47 2
process is?
02:47
3
A. Vaguely.
02:47
4
Q. What do you know of the NCB coordination
02:47 5
process?
02:47
6
A. It's conducted by DGS prior to entering a
02:47
7
contract for a noncompetitive bid with a outside
02:47
8
entity.
02:47
9
Q. And so "NCB" stands for noncompetitive bid? 02:47 10
A. Yes.
02:47
11
Q. Why is there a specific process for
02:47
12
noncompetitive bids with outside entities?
02:47
13
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:47
14
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know.
02:47
15
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:47
16
Q. Do you know what the process entails?
02:47
17
A. No.
02:47
18
MR. FEE: Same objection.
02:47
19
THE WITNESS: No.
02:47
20
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:47
21
Q. Have you had to go through a noncompetitive 02:47 22
bid process with respect to your work on the 2019
02:47 23
triennial edition of the California Building
02:48
24
Standards Codes?
02:48
25

Q. How long ago was it?

02:49

A. At least a couple years.

02:49

Q. Would it have been before 2018?
A. I don't know.

02:49
02:49

Q. And did you go through the noncompetitive
bid process successfully for the 2019 cycle?
A. Yes.

02:49
02:50

02:50

Q. Did the California Building Standards

02:50

Commission always go through a process by -- strike
that.

02:51

02:51
To your knowledge, did the State of

02:51

California always rely on model codes in developing
its building standards?

02:51

02:51

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

02:51

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:51
THE WITNESS: That's a very broad question.
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:51

02:51

Q. Is it one that you have any knowledge of?

02:51

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 02:51
THE WITNESS: Only in the recent history,

02:51

we've used model codes. I couldn't go back years and 02:51
years and years.

02:51

BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

02:51

Q. Are you aware of any time when California

02:51

would separately publish California amendments from

02:51
Page 144

Page 142
1

A. Yes.

2

Q. Did you fill out forms similar to this as a

3 part of that process?

02:48

1 model codes?
02:48

Q. Did you fill out the same forms that you're

7

02:48

02:51

Q. Do you have any knowledge of why a switch

02:51
02:51
02:51

6 was made to create single incorporated volumes?

A. I don't know if they're the exact same

8 forms. I don't know.

02:48

A. No.

5

02:48

Q. Do you recall when that was?

4

A. Yes.

5

A. Yeah. It was a number of years ago.

3

02:48

4

6 seeing here?

02:51

2

02:48

7

02:48

MR. FEE: Objection.

02:51

02:52

8

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

02:48

9

THE WITNESS: No.

10 cycle, what disclosures needed to be made as part of 02:48

10

11 the process?

11 another 10, 15 minutes, can we take a quick break?

9

12

Q. When going through this process in the 2019

13 foundation.
14

02:48

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

02:48

02:48

THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

12

Quick question. If we're going to go on for 02:52
02:52

MR. NERCESSIAN: Yeah. There's no question

13 pending, so -02:48

02:52

02:52

02:52

02:52

14

THE WITNESS: Okay.

15

VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. It's 2:52. 02:52

16

(Recess)

17 the noncompetitive bid process during the 2019 cycle? 02:49

17

VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're back on the

18

18 record. It's 3:08.

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
16

02:49

02:49

THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
22

02:48

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lack of

19 foundation.
20

02:48

Q. What did you need to show in going through

02:52
02:52

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
02:49

Q. Did you have to provide any information to

03:08

Q. Ms. Marvelli, I'd like to return back to

21 Exhibit 7 a moment. Who at CBSC had principal roles 03:08

02:49

23 the Department of General Services in going through

03:08

20

02:49

02:49

22 in approving the terms of this contract?

03:08

23

03:08

A. Well, I signed off on it, and then also, I

24 the noncompetitive bid process during the 2019 cycle? 02:49

24 believe DGS Executive Office saw the contract.

25

25

A. I don't recall. It was quite awhile ago.

03:07

03:07

02:49

Q. Did anybody else have a role in reviewing

Page 143

03:08
03:08
Page 145

37 (Pages 142 - 145)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 the terms?
2

03:08

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

3 speculation.
4

03:08

03:08

THE WITNESS: The only other staff member at 03:08

5 CBSC was our staff services manager.

03:08

6 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
7

Q. And who was that?

8

03:08

A. Katrina Benny.

03:08
03:09

9

Q. What role did she play?

03:09

10

A. Drafting the information.

03:09

11

Q. Drafting what information?

12

A. The 2000 -- the information that you see in

03:09

13 the exhibit.
14

Q. Did the information in this exhibit

03:09

15 originate from CBSC?
16

03:09

03:09
03:09

A. I don't know. It was similar to what was in 03:09

17 the last edition of the contract, so it wasn't

03:09

18 originated. Not sure where it was originated from.
19

03:09

Q. Did Katrina Benny do the first draft of this 03:09

20 contract?

03:10

21

A. I don't recall.

22

Q. Was this the first contract you had worked

23 on?

03:10
03:10

03:10

24

A. Yes.

25

Q. Who at DGS played a role in approving the

03:10

1 terms of the contract?

03:10
Page 146

03:10

2

A. I don't have that. I don't know.

3

Q. Did you have any conversations with anybody

03:10

4 at DGS regarding the terms of this contract?
5

MR. YEN: It's a "yes" or "no" question.

6

THE WITNESS: Yes.

03:10
03:10

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
8

03:10

Q. Who at DGS did you have conversations with

9 regarding the terms of this contract?
10

03:10

03:10

A. It would have been reviewed by Legal as

11 well.

03:10

03:10
03:10

03:11

12

Q. In addition to any other persons at DGS?

03:11

13

A. The contract staff at DGS, but I don't know

03:11

14 who by name.

03:11

15

Q. Anybody else at DGS?

16

A. Not that I'm aware of.

03:11

17

Q. Did you have any discussions with Katrina

03:11
03:11

18 Benny regarding the terms in this contract?

03:11

19

A. Yes.

03:11

20

Q. What were those conversations?

21

A. Just edits to the contract.

22

Q. What edits did you prescribe to Ms. Benny

23 concerning the contract?

03:11
03:11
03:11

03:11

24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

25

THE WITNESS: Just -- that's a broad

03:11
03:11

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

question. It would be just clarity.
03:11
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:11
Q. I know.
03:11
A. Yeah.
03:11
Q. But you can still answer it.
03:11
A. I don't know the specifics. It was just
03:11
clarity for how the contract read and certain wording 03:11
of the codes and -- yeah. That's about it.
03:12
Q. Did you instruct Ms. Benny to make any
03:12
substantive changes to the contract terms?
03:12
A. I don't recall.
03:12
Q. Did anyone tell you that any particular
03:12
terms of the contract were important to the State? 03:12
A. That's -03:12
MR. YEN: You can exclude communications
03:12
with lawyers -03:12
THE WITNESS: Okay.
03:12
MR. YEN: -- in answering your question.
03:12
THE WITNESS: Yeah. So it would just be the 03:12
discussions we had with the contracts unit.
03:12
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:12
Q. And what were the substance of those
03:12
discussions?
03:12
A. Just the contents of the contract and the
03:12
way it's written.
03:13
Page 148

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. Did they call out any particular terms of
03:13
the contract that were important to the State?
03:13
MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.
03:13
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know how to
03:13
answer that. It's sort of a standard contract that 03:13
is modified for a specific year. There isn't really 03:13
a negotiation back and forth between BSC and the
03:13
contracts unit on what is good or bad. It's more of 03:13
just the contents of it for this particular cycle. 03:13
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:13
Q. Do you recall how long the contract took to 03:13
finalize?
03:13
A. I do not recall that.
03:13
Q. Was it more than a month?
03:13
A. Yes, it was more than a month.
03:13
Q. Was it more than two months?
03:13
A. I don't recall.
03:13
Q. Could it have been more than two months?
03:13
MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 03:14
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
03:14
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:14
Q. You can still answer.
03:14
A. I don't recall.
03:14
Q. Could it have been more than six months?
03:14
MR. YEN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 03:14

Page 147

Page 149

38 (Pages 146 - 149)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

THE WITNESS: I honestly don't recall.

03:14

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

Q. Were you aware of any flexibility in

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

5

03:18

THE WITNESS: When we develop the contracts

03:14
03:15

12

03:15

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I'm not aware.

03:15

12 that they're similar in nature.

03:19

14

03:19

Q. What do you understand that this lawsuit is

15 about?

16

A. Yes.

16

17

Q. Past contracts with NFPA?

18

A. With other model code developers as well.

03:15

18

19

Q. Like this document marked next in order.

03:15

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:15
03:15

22

20
03:16

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's

03:19

03:16

22

03:19

THE WITNESS: I wish I knew.

03:19
03:19

Q. Well, what do you know about

21 Public.Resource?

Q. You have been handed a document marked for

03:19

03:19

17 outside the scope of the subpoena.

03:16

03:19

03:19

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:15

15 this contract for the 2016 edition on past contracts? 03:15

21 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:18

11 similar in nature. When I review them, I can see

03:15

Q. And it's your testimony that you modelled

03:18

8 because we're adopting the codes at the same cycle,
10 are developed the similar time, and so they're

MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.

(Exhibit 10 marked)

03:18

9 so the contract with IAPMO and the contract with ICC 03:19

03:15

13 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:18

7 developed in the same amount of -- same timeframe

03:14

11

20

03:18

6 with the other model, the contracts are generally

Q. Does that mean you weren't aware of any

9 flexibility that existed in the terms of the

14

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That

03:14

10 contract?

03:18

03:18

4 mischaracterizes her testimony.

03:14

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
8

3

03:14

MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.

6

2 providers?

03:14

4 particular terms of the contract?
5

1 was consistent with contracts with other model code

03:14

03:19
03:19

A. They're a company that has codes online.

03:19

23 identification as Exhibit 10. What is this document? 03:16

23 That's all I know.

24

A. I don't know.

24

Q. What do you know about Carl Malamud?

25

Q. Have you seen this document?

25

A. They submitted -- he submitted a PRA request 03:19
Page 152

03:16
03:16
Page 150

1

A. Not prior to today, no.

2

Q. Do you recall consulting this document or

03:16

1 through Public.Resource.
03:16

3 any other similar documents in developing the terms
4 of the 2016 contract?

03:16

03:17

MR. YEN: Objection. Vague.

6

03:17
03:17

03:17
03:17

Q. This document identifies an agreement

3 Public.Resource with anyone?

03:17

11

A. That's what the top reads, yes.

12

Q. Want to call your attention to page 10 of

03:17

13 the document, to the signature page.

A. No. Just in regards to answering the PRAs

03:20
03:20

6

Q. No communications outside of the context of

A. Uh-huh.

15

Q. And underneath "Department of General

A. No, not that I'm aware of, no.

9

Q. Have you had any communications about Carl

10 Malamud?

03:20

A. No.

Q. Have you spoken to anyone at DGS about this

13 lawsuit?

03:17

14
03:17

03:20

15 with any lawyers.

17 Building Standards Commission," there's a signature. 03:17
18 Can you read the name of the individual signing?

18

20 Contracts and Acquisitions."

03:18
03:18

21

Q. Do you know Marnell Voss?

03:18

22

A. No.

23

Q. Do you know of Marnell Voss?

24

A. No.

25

Q. How do you know that the 2016 NFPA contract

03:18

THE WITNESS: No.

03:20
03:20

Q. Like to return back to Exhibit 2 a moment,

19 and I'd like to call your attention again to the

03:18

03:21
03:21

20 front page of the exhibit. Aside from those

03:21

21 notations on the cover page of the exhibit, do you
22 recognize this document?

03:18

23

03:21

03:21

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

24 Authenticity.
03:18
25
Page 151

03:20

03:20

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. It says "Marnell Voss, Manager of the

03:20

03:20

MR. YEN: Again, excluding communications

16
03:18

03:20

03:20

12

16 Services Procurement Division for the California

19

03:20

03:20

11

03:17
03:17

14

03:19

03:19

8

03:17

10 between BNi, NFPA and CBSC, does it not?

03:19

Q. Have you had any communications regarding

7 the PRA requests?

8 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:19

5 and just staff and coordinating the PRA requests.

THE WITNESS: I have not seen this document

9

2
4

5

7 before.

03:19

03:21

03:21

MR. FEE: What are you calling the cover

03:21
Page 153

39 (Pages 150 - 153)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

page?
03:21
1
MR. NERCESSIAN: Aside -- okay. Strike
03:21 2
that.
03:21
3
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:21
4
Q. I want to direct your attention to the
03:21
5
page that reads "2016 California Electrical Code,
03:22
6
California Code of Regulations, Title 24, Part 3." 03:22
7
Do you see that?
03:22
8
A. I see that.
03:22
9
Q. Aside from the notations on this page, do
03:22
10
you recognize this document?
03:22
11
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
03:22
12
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
03:22 13
MR. FEE: You're asking him to review every 03:22 14
page of both of these binders and tell you if she
03:22
15
recognizes it? What's the question?
03:22
16
MR. NERCESSIAN: That's the question, does 03:22 17
she recognize this document.
03:22
18
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
03:22 19
Authenticity.
03:22
20
THE WITNESS: Yeah. It appears that it's
03:22
21
the California Electrical Code, but, again, it's a 03:22
22
huge document to take a look at.
03:22
23
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:22
24
Q. Any reason why, leaving aside the notations 03:22 25

Q. So is there anything you can point to apart

03:24

from the cover that makes you doubt that this is the 03:24
California Electrical Code?

03:24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Same objection.
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:24
03:24

Q. You can take time to skim it.

03:24

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: The document's a
thousand pages.

03:24

03:24

THE WITNESS: I understand that you want me
to say that it's consistent, but I can't tell you

03:24

03:24

exactly if it's the code. It's similar in nature,

03:24

but I can't say that it is exactly the code.

03:24

BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:25

Q. Do you recognize anything that suggests it

03:25

isn't? And you can take five to ten minutes to skim 03:25
through and look for something.
A. Well, I'm not --

03:25
03:25

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Same objection.

03:25

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not an expert on

03:25

everything that's in the California Electrical Code, 03:25
so for me to see something that is inconsistent, I

03:25

couldn't -- I'd have to look at every page, and I'm

03:25

not an expert on the California Electrical Code.

03:25

BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:26

Q. I'm just looking for something, one thing

03:26

Page 154

Page 156

1 on the cover page, that includes the title -- strike 03:22

1 other than those notations that makes you doubt that 03:26

2 that.

2 this is the 2016 California Electrical Code. Can you 03:26

3

03:23
Leaving aside the notations on the title

03:23

3 do that?

03:26

4 page, anything apart from the cover that does not

03:23

4

5 look consistent with the 2016 California Electrical

03:23

5 given her a copy of the California Electrical Code.

6 Code?
7

03:23

6 I'm not sure how she's supposed to make that

MR. YEN: And if you need to look through it 03:23

8 to make sure that you can answer his question,
9 then --

03:23

03:23

THE WITNESS: Okay. And --

11

MR. YEN: -- go ahead.

12

THE WITNESS: -- what do you mean by

03:23

17

03:23
03:23

25 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

Q. Is there anything, one thing other than the

03:26
03:27
03:27

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. You're

03:27
03:27

17 haven't given her an actual copy of that document to 03:27

03:24

18 do so.
19

03:24

03:24

03:24

THE WITNESS: I can't verify that. It

03:26

16 asking her to authenticate a document, and you

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. She can't

24 appears to be an enormous amount of material.

03:26

03:26

12 notations on the cover page that reads "2016

15

03:24

21 possibly look through all thousand pages of this
23

03:23

Is there anything apart from those notations 03:23

22 right now.

THE WITNESS: I don't -- sorry. Repeat the

14 this is the 2016 California Electrical Code?

03:23

19 isn't the California Electrical Code?

03:26

13 California Electrical Code" that makes you doubt that 03:27

18 on the cover page that cause you to believe this
20

11
03:23

Q. By "consistent," I mean is there anything

16 that looks out of -- strike that.

8

03:26

03:26

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:23

14 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
15

7 determination right now.
9 question again.

10

13 "consistent"?

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. You haven't 03:26

20 expert on the California Electrical Code, so I

03:27

03:27

Q. Yeah. And I'm not asking for you to

03:27

25 authenticate it. I'm asking whether you see

03:24

24

03:27

03:27

23 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:24

03:27

21 wouldn't know where to look to authenticate or not
22 authenticate.

03:24

03:27

THE WITNESS: Yeah. Again, I'm not an

03:27

Page 155

Page 157

40 (Pages 154 - 157)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 anything, aside from those notations, that makes you 03:27

1

2 doubt its authenticity.

2 agencies sell the California Electrical Code?

3

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: I'll renew my

4 objection.
5

03:27
03:28

7 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:28
03:28

12
14

03:28

03:28

03:31

A. You're done-done?
Q. I'm done-done.
A. Okay. Sorry.

03:28

No, I know, I know. I'm not done, he's

9 done.

03:31

MR. YEN: You want to go off the record?

VIDEO OPERATOR: We're off the record. It's 03:31

12 3:31.

03:31

03:31

(Recess)

14

VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're back on the

16
03:28

Q. And do you recognize any part of this

03:31

10

03:31

15 record. It's 3:35.

03:28

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

03:31
03:31

13

THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's not what I said. 03:28

16 have an answer.

Q. No further questions.

5

11

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That

15 There's nothing I can find either way, so I don't

18

03:28

03:28

13 mischaracterizes what she said.

03:31

8

9 those two notations on the cover page that makes you 03:28
10 doubt the authenticity of this document as the 2016

A. I don't know that either.

7

03:28

3

6

03:28

Q. So there's nothing that you see aside from

11 California Electrical Code?

03:31
03:31

4

03:28

THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know. I'd

6 have -- I don't know the whole code. It's similar.
8

Q. Are you aware whether any other State

EXAMINATION

03:35

17 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:28

18

03:35

03:35
03:35

Q. Ms. Marvelli, my name is Rachel

03:35

19 document as including a portion that you recognize to 03:28

19 Miller-Ziegler. I represent National Fire Protection 03:35

20 be the California Electrical Code?

20 Association, and we just have few areas that we want 03:35

21

22 Authenticity.
23

03:28

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

03:28

03:28

21 to follow up on or ask additional questions on.
22

THE WITNESS: There's one section I

03:28

24 recognize because the Building Standards Commission

23 ever met before today?
03:29

24

25 proposed regulations, so I do see one section that is 03:29
25
Page 158
1 in the code.

03:29

4

03:35
03:35

Q. Have we ever spoken before today?

03:35
Page 160

03:29

A. It's Article 625. It's in the second

A. No.

2

03:29

Q. And what section is that?

A. No.

03:35

1

2 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
3

03:35

So the first question is have the two of us

Q. Thanks. As we've talked some today about

03:35
03:35

3 the standards that CBSC uses to develop the

03:29

03:35

4 California Building Standards Code, I'd like to talk 03:35

5 volume. It's on page 70-567. It's Article 625, and 03:29

5 to you a little bit more about those to start.

6 it's Section 625.1.1, and where you see the "BSC-CG" 03:29

6

7 banner, the Building Standards Commission proposed

7 these standards as very detail-oriented. Do you

8 that amendment with HCD.
9

03:29

03:29

Q. And this provision has, along the side, a

Earlier in your testimony, you described

8 remember saying that?

03:29

9

A. No.

10 notation that reads vertically "CACACAC." Is that to 03:30

10

11 indicate that this is a California amendment?
A. Yes.

13

03:30

03:30

Q. Who handles the advertising for the

14 California Electrical Code?
15
17

03:30

03:36

03:30
03:30

A. I don't want to speculate. I don't know.

23

03:36
03:36

15 oriented. Would you say that the standards that CBSC 03:36
03:36

03:30

Q. Are you aware of whether any other State

A. Yes.

03:36

Q. They tend to be rather long documents?

A. The reference standards in the various codes 03:36

20 are detailed, yes.

03:30

21

03:30
03:31

03:31

03:36

03:36

Q. And are you familiar with the process that

22 goes into developing those standards?

03:30

24 agencies advertise the California Electrical Code?

17
19

03:30

22

03:36

Q. It's at minute 22:15. I think you said

18

03:30

Q. Are you aware what entity does the

A. I don't know.

03:36
03:36

16 relies on are detailed?

21 advertising for the California Electrical Code?

25

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

14 these are reference stats that are very detail

03:30

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
20

13

03:30

THE WITNESS: Not the Building Standards

18 Commission.

03:36

12 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Lacks

16 foundation.

03:36

03:36

11 Mischaracterizes testimony.

12

03:36

03:36
03:36

23

A. Not completely.

24

Q. Do you have some vague level of familiarity

25 with that?
Page 159

03:36
03:36

03:36
Page 161

41 (Pages 158 - 161)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

A. Vague level, yes.

2

Q. I want to talk -- wet, let's talk generally. 03:36

03:36

1 allowed to participate in that process?

3 Could you tell me what you know about that process?
4

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection. Calls for

5 speculation.
6

03:37

A. I don't know.

03:38

3

Q. Okay. Let's assume for a moment that the

03:38

4 CBSC couldn't rely on something like the National

03:38

5 Electrical Code to develop the California Electrical 03:38

THE WITNESS: All I know is that it's -- the 03:37

6 Code. How would the Building Standards Commission go 03:39

03:37

8 are done through a national vetting. The reference

03:37

9 standards within those, I'm not familiar with that

7 about developing the CEC if it didn't have the NEC?
8

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

9

03:37

03:37
03:37

Q. When you say that -- the amendments at a

03:39

THE WITNESS: I don't know how that would

10 happen.

11 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
12

03:36

03:37

7 amendments, at a national level, to any model code,

10 process.

03:38

2

03:39
03:39

03:39

11 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:39

03:37

12

13 national level, are you talking about, for example,

03:37

13 process?

14 amendments to the National Electrical Code?

03:37

14

MR. NERCESSIAN: Same objection.

15

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't want to 03:39

15

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

16

THE WITNESS: Yes.

03:37
03:37

17 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
18

16 speculate.

03:37

Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the

03:39
03:39

03:39

17 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:37

19 process to develop something like the electrical

Q. Would it be an incredibly resource-intensive 03:39

18

03:39

Q. Would you agree that it would be more

03:39

19 difficult for the CBSC to make the California

03:37

03:39

20 code. Are you familiar with what that process looks 03:37

20 Electrical Code if it couldn't incorporate elements

21 like?

21 of the National Electrical Code?

03:37

22

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

23

THE WITNESS: Less familiar with the

24 electrical code and more familiar with the

03:37

03:39

03:39

22
23

03:37
03:37

MR. NERCESSIAN: Same objection.

THE WITNESS: I would agree that it would be 03:39

24 more difficult, yes.

03:39

03:39

25 International Code Council's process for the various 03:37
25 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
Page 162

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

codes that they develop.
03:37
1
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:37
2
Q. Could you tell me what your understanding of 03:37 3
that process is?
03:37
4
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection. Vague, calls
03:37 5
for speculation.
03:38
6
THE WITNESS: The process for the
03:38
7
International Building Code, for example, is there 03:38
8
are entities out there that propose code changes, and 03:38 9
they go through a code development process, they're 03:38 10
voted on at a national level, and then they're
03:38
11
correlated and published into the next edition of
03:38
12
the -- for example, the International Building Code. 03:38 13
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:38
14
Q. Is it your understanding that there's
03:38
15
technical experts involved in that process?
03:38
16
A. Yes.
03:38
17
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:38
18
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:38
19
Q. Is it your understanding that there is some 03:38
20
industry participation in that process?
03:38
21
A. Yes.
03:38
22
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:38
23
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:38
24
Q. Is it your understanding that the public is 03:38
25

03:39
Page 164

Q. You said, I think, earlier that your office
has 14 staff; is that correct?
A. Yes.

03:39

03:39
03:39

Q. Do you think it would be possible for that

03:39

14 staff office to write the California Electrical
Code from scratch?

03:39

03:40

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:40

THE WITNESS: No, would not be possible.
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:40
03:40

Q. Do you think it would be possible for your

03:40

office and the commissioners to write the code from
scratch?

03:40

03:40

MR. NERCESSIAN: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: No.

03:40
03:40

BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:40

Q. Would it be fair to say that the California

03:40

Building Codes Commission relies a great deal on the 03:40
National Electrical Code?

03:40

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:40

THE WITNESS: We're required by law to adopt 03:40
the National Electrical Code, so that's where we rely 03:40
on, yeah.

03:40

BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:40

Q. Does your office view the codes that you -excuse me -- the standards that you adopt as

Page 163

03:40
03:40
Page 165

42 (Pages 162 - 165)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 high-quality standards?

03:41

1 final sentence, it reads "The National Fire

2

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:41

3

THE WITNESS: Well, they're the minimum

03:41

4 building standards for the State of California to
5 use.

03:41

8 standards, or at least some of these standards are

03:41

Q. And then if I could have you look at just a

A. That is correct.

12

Q. Would CBSC rely on codes that -- would CBSC

03:41

14 health and safety in the State?

03:41

A. I'm not sure ow to answer. I don't have an

03:44

03:44

11
03:41

A. Yes.

12

Q. So earlier today, you got asked some

03:44
03:44

13 questions about whether publishers of the code

03:41

16 answer for that question. Sorry. It's vague.

03:43

9 the NFPA 70 National Electrical Code 2014 Edition."
10 Is that what that says?

13 rely on inferior or poor-quality codes to regulate

03:43

8 that says "NFPA is the sole owner of the copyright to 03:44

03:41

11

17

03:43

7 little farther down, section one, paragraph A. So

9 important for health and safety in the State; is that 03:41

15

A. Yes.

6

03:41
03:41

03:43

03:43

5

Q. I think earlier you talked about these

10 correct?

3 to the National Electrical Code and the acronym
4 (NEC)." Is that what it says?

03:41

6 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
7

03:43

2 Protection Association, Inc. (NFPA) owns a copyright 03:43

03:44

14 claimed copyright in the California Electrical Code, 03:44
03:41

15 and I just want to clarify for the record that based 03:44

03:41

16 on these paragraphs, what NFPA is claiming copyright 03:44

Q. Sure. Earlier, I think you said that one of 03:41

17 in is the National Electrical Code, not the

03:44

18 the nine-point criteria is that California codes are 03:41

18 California Electrical Code; is that right?

03:44

19 supposed to protect public health and safety; is that 03:42

19

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

20 right?

20

THE WITNESS: That's what this contract

03:42

21

A. Yes.

03:42

22

Q. So something like the CEC, that incorporates 03:42

21 says, yes.

23 parts of the NEC. In doing so, do you think that

03:44
03:44

03:44
03:44

23

03:42

22 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:44

Q. Do you see any -- did anything I just read

24 reflects a judgment that the NEC adequately protects 03:42

24 say anything about NFPA claiming copyright in the

25 health and safety?

25 California Electrical Code?

03:42
Page 166

1

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

2

THE WITNESS: That the nine-point criteria

3 is met, then yes.

03:42

4 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
5

03:42

03:42
03:42

Q. So in relying on the NEC as part of the CEC, 03:42

6 the commissioners are making a judgment that those

03:42

7 parts of the NEC that they incorporate are methods of 03:42
8 protecting public health and safety in the State; is 03:42
9 that right?

03:42

10

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:42

11

THE WITNESS: That's the determination that

03:42

12 the commissions have made if they so choose to adopt 03:42
13 those codes.

03:42

14 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
15

03:42

Q. I want to talk to you some about your

03:42

16 agreements with NFPA in particular. If you could
17 turn to Exhibit 7 in the stack.

03:43

03:43

18

A. Uh-huh. Okay.

19

Q. Do you remember talking about this earlier?

20

A. Yes.

21

Q. And this was the 2016 agreement for the 2016 03:43

22 CEC; is that right?

03:43
03:43

03:43
03:43

23

A. Yes.

03:43

24

Q. If I could have you turn to the second

03:43

25 page of the exhibit. So in that first paragraph, the 03:43

03:44

03:44
Page 168

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. Not in these, no.
03:44
Q. Did anything in what I just read say
03:44
anything about the NFPA claiming copyright in the
03:44
California amendments?
03:44
A. No.
03:44
Q. You also spoke some today about the process 03:44
that goes into developing the California Electrical 03:45
Code. I won't try to summarize the entire thing, but 03:45
is it fair to say that at a high level, various State 03:45
agencies and the commissioners, among others, are
03:45
involved in developing the California Electrical
03:45
Code?
03:45
A. Yes.
03:45
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:45
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:45
Q. State agencies sometimes draft amendments
03:45
for the California Electrical Code; is that right? 03:45
A. Yes.
03:45
Q. And the commission is the one that's
03:45
ultimately responsible for taking one of those four 03:45
actions that you spoke about earlier with respect to 03:45
the code; is that right?
03:45
A. Yes.
03:45
Q. If I could have you look back at Exhibit 7. 03:45
Let's see. It looks like the fourth page of
03:45

Page 167

Page 169

43 (Pages 166 - 169)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 Exhibit A. It begins, paragraph six, "Work Details." 03:45

1 agreement signed? When was your signature on this

2 So if you look in the first few lines of paragraph A, 03:45

2 agreement?

3 it says "NFPA shall, in accordance with the specific 03:46

3

A. May 16th, 2016.

4 formatting requirements and editorial and education

4

Q. And if you look at the second page, that top 03:48

03:46

5 timetable set forth herein, print, publish and make

03:46

03:48

5 paragraph under "Scope of Work," what version of the 03:48

6 available for sale to the State of California, local 03:46

6 NEC does the 2016 CEC incorporate?

7 government agencies and to the general public, on or 03:46

7

A. The 2014 National Electrical Code.

8 before July 1st, 2016, or at a later date as set by

8

Q. Is it your understanding that the 2014 NEC

03:46

9 CBSC, copies of the 2016 CEC"; is that right?
10

A. Yes.

11

03:46

03:46

Q. So would it be correct to say that what I

03:46

03:48

03:48

A. Yes.

11

03:46

03:48
03:48

9 was already completed in 2016?
10

12 just read indicates that NFPA is responsible for

03:47

03:48

03:48

Q. In fact, wasn't the 2014 NEC already

12 copyrighted in 2016?

03:48
03:48

13 printing and publishing the 2016 CEC?

03:46

13

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

14

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:46

14

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know the answer 03:48

15

THE WITNESS: Yes, that's accurate.

03:46

15 to that.

16 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:46

16 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

17

03:46

17

03:48

Q. Does the portion of the sentence I read say

03:48
03:48

Q. Sure. So if you look at that top

03:48

18 anything about NFPA being responsible for determining 03:46

18 paragraph -- sorry. Actually, if you look at

19 the content of the 2016 CEC?

19 paragraph 1-A where it says "NFPA is the sole owner

03:46

20

A. No, not here, no, not what you just read.

03:46

21

Q. Did what I just read say anything about NFPA 03:46

22 drafting California amendment for the CEC?

20 of the copyright to the NFPA 70 National Electrical

03:46

23

A. No.

24

Q. Did what I just read say anything about NFPA 03:47

03:47

03:47

03:47

3

A. No.

03:47

4

Q. Are you aware of any way in which NFPA is

03:47

5 involved in dictating the content of the California

03:47

03:47

7

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

8

THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by

9 "dictating the content."

03:47

11

03:47

03:47

10 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:47

Q. Sure. So are you aware of any way in which

03:47

12 NFPA drafts amendments -- excuse me -- drafts

03:47

13 California amendments for the California Electrical

03:47

14 Code?

03:47

15

A. Not California amendments, no.

16

Q. Are you aware of any way in which NFPA

17 approves the California Electrical Code?
18
19

A. No.

20 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
21

03:47
03:47
03:47

03:47

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
Q. I want to talk to you about the other side

22 of things, California's role in determining the

03:47
03:47
03:47
03:47

23 content of the National Electrical Code. If you keep 03:47
24 looking at this 2016 agreement as an example, if you 03:47
25 could flip back to the first page. When was this

24 NEC. Does that sound right?

03:47

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

03:48
03:48
03:48

22 suggest that at the time this agreement was signed,

03:47
25
Page 170

1 the commission takes with respect to the California

6 Electrical Code?

21 Code 2014 Edition," that sentence would seem to
23 the NFPA held copyright in the 2014 Edition of the

25 approving or taking any of those four actions that

2 Electrical Code?

03:48

03:49
03:49

03:49

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:49
Page 172

THE WITNESS: That's what this reads, yes. 03:49
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:49
Q. So if the 2014 NEC was already completely
03:49
drafted at the time that you signed this agreement, 03:49
could this agreement have dictated the content of the 03:49
2014 NEC?
03:49
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:49
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
03:49
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:49
Q. I want to move to talking a little bit about 03:49
how people get access to the CEC. Are there ways
03:49
that somebody could view the CEC for free?
03:49
A. Yes.
03:49
Q. Could you tell me what those ways include? 03:49
A. Through our website, there's a link to the 03:49
publisher, and they could view the code, the CEC for 03:49
free there.
03:50
Q. So it doesn't cost any money to view the CEC 03:50
online in that method?
03:50
A. In that method, correct.
03:50
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:50
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
03:50
Q. Do you know if the NEC is available online? 03:50
A. I don't know.
03:50
Q. You got asked some questions today about
03:50

Page 171

Page 173

44 (Pages 170 - 173)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 whether you had ever viewed the CEC online. Do you
2 remember that?
3

A. Yes.

4

Q. You were asked whether you had tried to

03:50

03:50

7

Q. And you said you hadn't attempted to do

12

03:50

A. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. If I could have you take a look at

03:52

7 that helps.
8

03:52

03:50

03:50

03:52

A. I'm sorry. Which one?

9

03:50

Q. You were, however, able to view the CEC

11 online; correct?

4

6 Attachment A. It's numbered 263332 in the bottom if 03:52

03:50

A. Correct.

03:52

03:52

5

03:50

A. Yes.

9

03:52

3 State agencies?

6

10

1 to the deposit libraries in Attachment A, selected
2 deposit libraries in Attachment B, and copies to

03:50

5 print or extract text from the CEC?

8 that; right?

03:50

03:50

Q. Exhibit A, Attachment A.

10

03:52
03:52

A. Attachment -- Exhibit A, Attachment A.

03:52

11 Okay. Hold on here. Okay. Ending in 32?

03:50

03:53

12

Q. Yes. Exactly.

03:50

13

A. Okay.

14 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

03:50

14

Q. So could you tell me what's listed on this

15

03:50

15 page?

13

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
Q. You were able to read the code online

16 through free access; is that right?
17
18

A. Yes.

03:50

03:53
03:53

03:53

A. It appears it's a complete depository

03:53

17 library list that we provided NFPA.

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:53

03:50

18

03:50

19 required to deliver copies of the CEC to each of

19 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
20

16

03:50

03:53

Q. So is there another way that somebody could

21 read the CEC for free? Are there print copies
22 available for free anywhere?

03:50
03:50

A. Yes.

24

Q. Where are those print copies available?

25

A. I spoke earlier about local --

20 these; is that right?

03:53

A. That's requirement, yes.

22

03:50

Q. And if you could flip two pages forward to

03:53

23 Exhibit A, Attachment B.
03:50

03:53

03:53

24

A. Yes.

25

03:50

03:53
03:53

21

03:50

23

Q. So under the agreement with NFPA, NFPA is

03:53

Q. Could you tell me what's on this page?

03:53

Page 174
1

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

Page 176

03:50

3

Q. Go ahead.

4

A. Okay. I spoke earlier about local

1

A. Selective Depository Libraries, a list.

03:51

2 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

2

Q. And under the agreement with CBSC, NEC would 03:53

03:51

03:53

3 be required to deliver copies to each of these
03:51

5 jurisdictions make available the code and also the

4 libraries; is that right?

03:51

5

03:53

03:54

A. Yes.

03:54

6 repository libraries and law libraries that were in

03:51

6

Q. Not going to make you count all the

03:54

7 the back of the exhibit. They're made available

03:51

7 libraries on this page or in this attachment, but

03:54

8 there.
9

03:51

Q. Great. And so if we could look at -- let's

10 see. If you could look at the very last page of

8 could you just tell me how many pages the attachment 03:54
03:51

9 is?

03:54

03:51

10

A. Are you referring to Attachment B?

11 Exhibit 7. So on that top paragraph, the first full 03:51

11

Q. Yes. Exhibit A, Attachment B.

12 sentence, it reads "During the term of this

12

A. Four pages.

13 agreement, NFPA shall deliver complimentary copies of 03:51

13

Q. Can you flip back to Exhibit A,

14 the 2016 CEC and automatically any 2016 CEC

14 Attachment A?

03:51
03:51

03:54
03:54

03:54
03:54
03:54

15 supplements, supplements to the 2016 CEC in response 03:51

15

A. Okay.

16 to emergency regulations, and all related errata

16

Q. So you were asked earlier today whether you

17 sheets, directly to the deposit libraries listed in

03:51
03:52

18 Attachment A hereto in the quantities set forth
19 therein, and one copy each to the Selective

03:52
03:52

03:54

18 view a copy of the California Electrical Code. Do
19 you remember that?
20

A. Yes.

21 and copies to the State agencies as directed by

21

Q. So if you can look at the complete

22 CBSC." Do you see that on that page?

03:52

23

A. Yes.

24

Q. So am I correct in saying that based on this 03:52

03:52

03:54
03:54

22 depository list. What city is the first item in the 03:54
23 list?

25 sentence I read, NFPA is required to deliver copies

03:54

03:54

20 Depository Libraries listed in Attachment B hereto,
03:52

03:54

17 knew where the closest law library was that you could 03:54

24

03:52
25
Page 175

A. Sacramento.

03:54
03:54

Q. And what city is the second item in the

03:54
Page 177

45 (Pages 174 - 177)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 list?

03:54

2

A. Sacramento.

03:54

3

Q. If I can have you turn to Exhibit A,

03:54

4 Attachment B, the first page. If you look at that
5 list, third from the bottom, what city is that
6 library?

03:54
03:55

03:55

7

A. Sacramento.

8

Q. If I can have you turn to the next page.

03:55
03:55

9 Second library down, what city is that?

03:55

10

A. Sacramento.

03:55

11

Q. If you look near the bottom, the McGeorge

12 School of Law, what city is that library?

03:55

03:55

13

A. Sacramento.

03:55

14

Q. If I can have you flip to the next page.

03:55

15 Looks like sixth one down. Sixth one down, what city 03:55
16 is that library?

03:55

17

A. Sacramento.

03:55

18

Q. And the one underneath that, what city is

19 that library there?

03:55

03:55

20

A. Sacramento.

21

Q. So there would be at least seven different

03:55
03:55

22 places within the Sacramento area that you could view 03:55
23 a copy of the California Electrical Code for free; is 03:55
24 that right?
25

03:55

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:55

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

available to print disabled individuals?
03:56
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
03:56
THE WITNESS: Not for the electrical code, 03:56
I'm not aware of any questions.
03:56
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
03:56
Q. Are you aware of any requests that CBSC has 03:56
received about making the California Electrical Code 03:57
available to mobility impaired individuals?
03:57
A. No.
03:57
Q. Are you aware of any requests CBSC has
03:57
received about making the California Electrical Code 03:57
available to those who lack sight?
03:57
A. No.
03:57
Q. Are you aware of any requests CBSC has
03:57
received about making California Electrical Code
03:57
available to those with accessibility issues?
03:57
A. No.
03:57
Q. If I could have you take a look at
03:57
Exhibit 6. We talked some earlier today -- you
03:57
talked some earlier today about this first email in 03:57
this stack.
03:57
A. Uh-huh.
03:57
Q. So I'll read that first sentence. "Just
03:57
received a phone call from Suren at [phone], 03:57
and he tried to review the code, Part 2.5, on the BSC 03:57

Page 178
1

THE WITNESS: That's what this document

2 states, yes.

03:55

03:55

3 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
4

03:55

Q. Would it be fair to say that there's a

03:55

5 number of places that somebody in this area could
6 view the CEC for free then?
7

A. Yes.

8

03:56
03:56

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

03:56

9 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
10

03:56

03:56

Q. Are you aware of anyone who wanted to access 03:56

11 the California Electrical Code who was unable to do
12 so?
13

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

14

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that.

03:56

15 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
16

03:56

03:56
03:56
03:56

Q. You said earlier that sometimes CBSC would

03:56

17 get calls about broken links. Do you recall if any

03:56

18 of those calls were about the California Electrical

03:56

19 Code specifically?

03:56

20

A. Yes.

21

Q. And you got asked some questions about

03:56
03:56

22 whether CBSC has taken efforts to make the California 03:56
23 Electrical Code available to certain populations

03:56

24 including the print disabled. Are you aware of any
25 requests CBSC has received about making its codes

03:56
03:56
Page 179

Page 180

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

website, and it came up with screen print below the 03:58
ICC page and wanting him to pay for the premium
03:58
access in order to view the code." Do you see that 03:58
written there?
03:58
A. I see that written there.
03:58
Q. So that refers to Part 2.5 of the code; is 03:58
that right?
03:58
A. Yes.
03:58
Q. So that's not the California Electrical
03:58
Code; right?
03:58
A. That's correct.
03:58
Q. And it refers to the ICC; is that right?
03:58
A. That's correct.
03:58
Q. It's not the NFPA; is that correct?
03:58
A. Correct.
03:58
Q. So this email is not about any issues with 03:58
the California Electrical Code; is that correct?
03:58
A. That is correct.
03:58
Q. Sorry to make you go through all these
03:58
exhibits, but if you can turn to Exhibit 3. So if 03:58
you could turn to page three of this exhibit. This 03:58
has some language from the CBSC website; is that
03:59
right?
03:59
A. Yes.
03:59
Q. You talked some about that final paragraph 03:59
Page 181

46 (Pages 178 - 181)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 on page three that begins "All occupancies." Do you 03:59
2 remember talking about that?

03:59

3

A. Yes.

03:59

4

Q. The first part of that sentence reads "All

03:59

5 occupancies in California are subject to national

03:59

6 model codes adopted into Title 24." Do you see that? 03:59
7

A. Yes.

8

Q. And you were asked whether this meant that

03:59
03:59

9 this applied to all office buildings and schools and 03:59
10 hospitals. Do you remember being asked those
11 questions?

03:59

03:59

12

A. Yes.

13

Q. So you weren't asked about the second part

03:59
03:59

14 of that sentence, though, which I'll read now: Says 03:59
15 "and occupancies are further subject to amendments

03:59

16 adopted by State agencies and ordinances implemented 03:59
17 by local jurisdictions' governing bodies." Do you
18 see that on the page?

03:59

03:59

19

A. Yes.

03:59

20

Q. So this means that something like a hospital 03:59

21 in California would be subject to whatever local
22 amendments State agencies or other local

03:59
04:00

23 jurisdictions made; is that right?

04:00

24

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

25

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you repeat

1 the question? Sorry.

04:00
04:00
Page 182

04:00

2 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:

04:00

3

04:00

Q. Sure. So the second part of the sentence

4 indicates that, for example, a hospital in the State 04:00
5 would be subject to -- could be subject to amendments 04:00
6 adopted by State agencies and ordinances implemented 04:00
7 by local jurisdictions; is that right?
8
9
10

04:00

A. Hospitals.

04:00

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

04:00

THE WITNESS: Hospitals would be subject to

11 State agency amendments. I can't speak to whether

04:00
04:00

12 they would be subject to local jurisdiction governing 04:00
13 bodies because OSHPD determines the building
14 standards for hospitals.

04:00

04:00

15 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
16

Q. Okay. And so those State agencies that

04:00

17 might make amendments, they could make an amendment
18 that added language, added a requirement; is that
19 correct?

04:00

04:00

04:00

20

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: They can make amendments to

04:01
04:01

22 the model codes that add a requirement or take away a 04:01
23 requirement from the model code, yes.
24 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
25

Q. So when -- if I -- so a hospital in the

04:01
04:01
04:01

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

State, it wouldn't be fully accurate to say that it's 04:01
just governed by the national model codes; is that 04:01
right?
04:01
A. That's correct.
04:01
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
04:01
THE WITNESS: It's the California Electrical 04:01
Code.
04:01
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
04:01
Q. The California Electrical Code and any other 04:01
local jurisdiction's amendments; right?
04:01
A. Well, if we're speaking specifically about 04:01
hospitals, I'm not the expert on that, so that would 04:01
be OSHPD.
04:01
Q. Let's say buildings generally within the
04:01
State might be regulated by local jurisdiction's
04:01
amendments that they would make?
04:01
A. Local jurisdictions can amend the code on
04:01
top of what California publishes as well.
04:01
Q. And that would really determine what rules a 04:01
building in California would have to follow; does
04:02
that sound right?
04:02
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
04:02
THE WITNESS: That's a little vague. Sorry. 04:02
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
04:02
Q. No problem. That set of
04:02
Page 184

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

jurisdiction-specific rules would determine what
04:02
governed a building in California; is that correct? 04:02
A. Not -- no.
04:02
Q. So let's -- any given building within the 04:02
State, what would it have to look to to determine how 04:02
to comply with governing regulations?
04:02
MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.
04:02
THE WITNESS: That's kind of a broad
04:02
question.
04:02
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
04:02
Q. Sure. I'll rephrase.
04:02
A. Okay.
04:02
Q. A building in the State would have to look 04:02
to both the California Electrical Code and any local 04:02
jurisdiction's rules to determine whether it was
04:02
complying with the law; is that right?
04:03
A. Potentially.
04:03
MR. NERCESSIAN: Same objection.
04:03
THE WITNESS: Potentially, yes.
04:03
BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
04:03
Q. No further questions from us.
04:03
MR. FEE: I don't have any questions.
04:03
MR. NERCESSIAN: I have a few.
04:03
MR. YEN: Do we want to go off the record
04:03
or -04:03

Page 183

Page 185

47 (Pages 182 - 185)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

MR. NERCESSIAN: Yeah, we should go off the

2 record while we're switching.
3

04:03

04:03

VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're off the record 04:03

4 at 4:03.

04:03

5

(Recess)

6

VIDEO OPERATOR: Okay. We're back on the

04:03

7 record. It's 4:05.
8

EXAMINATION

04:05

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10

04:04

04:05
04:05

Q. All right. I have just a few more questions 04:05

11 regarding this contract, so that's Exhibit 7, and if 04:05
12 you could flip to the last page of that exhibit.

04:05

13 During the past round of examination, you looked at

04:05

14 language that said that the NFPA shall deliver copies 04:05
15 to the State agencies as directed by CBSC. Do you
16 see that language?
17

04:05

04:05

A. Is that item one or item two or in the first 04:06

18 paragraph?

04:06

19

Q. It's in the first paragraph.

20

A. Okay.

04:06

21

Q. It lists that there's the deposit libraries

04:06

22 in Attachment A --

04:06

04:06

23

A. Sorry.

24

Q. -- and Attachment B and copies to the State

04:06
04:06

25 agencies as directed by CBSC. Do you see that

1 language?
2

04:06
Page 186

04:06

4 agreement, deliver complimentary copies of the 2016

04:06

04:06

8

A. One, two, three, four, five, six. "Selected 04:06

04:06

9 depositories and copies to the State agencies as
10 directed." Yes, I see that. I'm sorry.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for a 04:09
04:09

THE WITNESS: I don't know that. I don't

9 have an answer for you.

04:06

11

04:07

04:07

15

A. I don't recall which State agencies.

16

Q. Do you recall whether there were any State

04:09

Q. Do you have any understanding?

04:09

04:07

17 agencies that CBSC directed NFPA to deliver

04:07

18 complimentary copies of the 2016 California

12

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

13

MR. FEE: Objection.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Calls for a legal

04:07

16

04:09
04:09

15 conclusion.

04:07

04:09

04:09

14

13 complimentary copies of the 2016 California

04:09

THE WITNESS: No.

04:09

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
18

04:09

04:09

Q. Are you aware of any request made to the

04:09

19 CBSC to make another part of the California Building 04:09

04:07

A. Yes. Yes. And I would have thought that

04:07

21 would have been one of the attachments in here that

04:07

20 Standards Code, not the California Electrical Code,
21 available to the print disabled?

04:07

04:07

Q. Do you recall how many State agencies CBSC

25 directed NFPA to deliver complimentary copies to?

04:07

04:10

04:10

22

A. I know of one other occurrence.

23

22 listed the State agencies, but maybe that comes
24

04:09

10 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:06

Q. No. No worries. Are you aware of any State 04:06

23 later.

04:09

MR. FEE: Objection.

8

04:06

12 agencies that CBSC has directed NFPA to deliver

20

4 from the NFPA or paying a fee?

7 legal conclusion.

Q. It is -- starts six lines down.

19 Electrical Code to?

3 California Electrical Code without seeking permission 04:09
5

04:06

7

14 Electrical Code to?

04:09
04:09

6

5 and -- what line is it in the first paragraph? I'm

11

Q. Do you have any understanding whether a

2 California citizen is free to make a copy of the

04:06

3 here, but I'm looking. During the term of the

A. I don't recall how many State agencies, no. 04:07
Q. Was it more than one?
04:07
A. Yes, it was more than one.
04:08
Q. More than three?
04:08
A. Yes.
04:08
Q. More than six?
04:08
A. Yes.
04:08
Q. More than ten?
04:08
A. I would say less than twenty, more than one. 04:08
Q. On the last round of examination, you
04:08
referred to -- again to local jurisdictions that make 04:08
available copies of the California Electrical Code 04:08
for free. To be clear, are you aware of any local 04:08
jurisdictions that do so?
04:08
A. I've not utilized that service, so I
04:08
couldn't tell you which jurisdictions make it
04:08
available.
04:08
Q. So that's a no, you're not aware of any
04:08
local jurisdictions that furnish freely available
04:08
copies of the California Electrical Code?
04:09
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.
04:09
Mischaracterizes her testimony.
04:09
THE WITNESS: I don't know of a
04:09
jurisdiction.
04:09
BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
04:09
Page 188

1

04:06

A. Copies to the State agencies. I know it's

6 sorry.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. What happened there?

04:10

24

A. We referred that person to the model code

04:10

25 developer, and they helped the person requesting.
04:07
Page 187

04:10
04:10
Page 189

48 (Pages 186 - 189)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Q. And who was the model code developer in that 04:10

2 instance?

04:10

A. The International Code Council.

04:10

4

Q. And how did they help the person requesting

04:13

3 National Electrical Code with additions and

04:10

04:10

A. I don't know.

04:10

7

Q. Do you know whether the International Code

6
04:10

8 Council required payment from the person requesting

04:10

04:10

10

A. I do not know that.

11

04:13

4 strikeouts showing the California amendments; is that 04:13
5 correct?

6

9 print disabled access?

Q. So the NFPA publishes the California

2 Electrical Code only in an edition that contains the 04:13

3

5 access?

1

04:13

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Calls for

7 speculation.
8

THE WITNESS: That's all I'm aware of.

04:13

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:10

Q. Are you aware of any request made to the

10
04:10

04:13

04:13
04:13

Q. The NFPA does not publish the text that

04:13

11 consists purely of the California Electrical Code; is 04:13

12 CBSC to make another part of the California Building 04:10

12 that right?

13 Standards Code, again, not the California Electrical 04:10

13

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Form.

04:13

14 Code, available to the mobility impaired?

14

THE WITNESS: I don't know whether they do

04:13

04:10

15

A. I'm not aware of that, no.

16

Q. Are you aware of a request -- strike that.

17

04:11

15 or they don't.

04:11

Are you aware of a similar request made to

04:13

16 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:11

18 the CBSC by any person requesting access who lacked
19 sight?

04:13

17
04:11

04:11

04:13

Q. Would you know if they did publish the

04:13

18 California supplement as a standalone?

04:13

19

20

A. No, I'm not aware of that.

21

20

Q. Are you aware of a similar request made to

04:11
04:11

22 the CBSC by any person requesting access for any

04:11

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 04:13
THE WITNESS: I don't know that. I would

21 not know that.

04:13

04:13

22 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:13

23 other accessibility related issue?

04:11

23

24

A. No, I'm not aware of that.

04:11

24 the entire California Electrical Code without the

25

Q. During the last round of examination, do you 04:11
25 strikeouts from the National Electrical Code that
Page 190

1 recall the distinctions raised between the National

04:11

2 Electrical Code and the California Electrical Code?

04:12

3

A. Yes, I remember the conversation, yes.

4

Q. The NFPA, however, publishes the California

Q. Are you aware of any way someone can read

1 aren't in the California code?

04:13
04:14
04:14
Page 192

04:14

04:12

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

3

04:12

2

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I'm not aware.

04:14

4 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:14

04:14

5 Electrical Code only in an edition that contains the 04:12

5

Q. So you don't know of any way you can just

04:14

6 National Electrical Code with additions and

6 see a clean copy of the California Electrical Code

04:14

04:12

7 strikeouts showing the California amendments; is that 04:12

7 without red lines?

8 correct?

8

A. I'm not aware of that.

9

Q. Have you had any discussions with any

04:12

9

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection to form.

10

THE WITNESS: That's not entirely a correct

11 statement.

04:12

04:12

04:14

10 representatives of NFPA?

04:14

04:14

11

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
13

04:12

04:14

Q. To what extent is it correct?

14

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection.

15

THE WITNESS: The publisher publishes the

16 California Electrical Code with -- you stated that

04:12
04:12

A. Okay.

14

Q. I'm asking for a broad answer.

15

A. Yes.

16

04:12

Q. You can still answer it.

13

04:12

A. It's a broad question.

12

04:12

04:14

Q. And what types of discussions have you had

04:14
04:14
04:14
04:14

17 with California amendments and strikeout, and that's 04:12

17 with the representatives of the NFPA?

18 not accurate.

18

04:12

19 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

A. One is about the periodical they mail out

04:15

04:12

20

A. And strikeout, yes.

22

Q. So I can rephrase.

23

A. Okay.

24

Q. I can restate the question.

25

A. Okay.

19 monthly that is their NFPA magazine, and it has

04:12

Q. Not "in strikeout." "And strikeouts."

21

04:14

04:14

20 articles in there that contain a variety of

04:15

04:15

04:12

21 information about the NFPA standards, and I've spoken 04:15

04:12

22 to the representative about specific articles that

04:12

23 are in there.

04:12

24

04:13

04:15

04:15

Q. What other conversations have you had with

25 NFPA?
Page 191

04:15

04:15
Page 193

49 (Pages 190 - 193)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

A. Just about the contract negotiations.

2

Q. And what was the substance of those

3 conversations?

04:15

3

A. Just the wording of the contract.

5

Q. Did you propose any edits to the NFPA that

04:15

6 they accepted to the contract?
8

A. Yes.

04:15

04:15
04:15

17

04:15

04:16

04:16

20 representatives of the NFPA?

THE WITNESS: Years ago, I attended

Q. So other than discussions about the

15 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:18

MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Just to learn about the

04:18
04:18

04:18

20 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
21

04:16

23 newsletter and conversations consisting of contract

04:19

Q. We discussed earlier about your knowledge or 04:19

22 awareness of the code development process among the

04:16

04:16

25 conversations with the NFPA?

04:18

Q. And for what purpose?

19 National Electrical Code.

04:16

24 negotiations, you don't recall any other

04:18

04:18

18

04:16

04:16

22

04:18

17

04:16

A. No.

MR. FEE: Same objection.

16

Q. Do you recall any other discussions with

04:18

04:18

13

04:16

THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall.

04:18

Q. Have you ever attended one of those

14 training.

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Asked and

21

10
12

04:15

04:15

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
19

THE WITNESS: We're invited to the training. 04:18

11 trainings?

Q. Do you recall the subject matter areas you

16 answered.

8

04:18

04:18

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

14 proposed that as to the NFPA on?
15

04:15

04:18
04:18

MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of

7 the cross.

12 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
13

04:18

5 concerning the National Electrical Code?
6

04:15

THE WITNESS: But I don't know what they are 04:15

11 specifically.

04:18

What kind of information does the NFPA

4 provide to the CBSC with respect to training
04:15

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. Asked and

9 answered.
10

Q. How do the -- are the trainings with respect 04:17

2 to the National Electrical Code -- strike that.

04:15

4

7

1

04:15

23 standards development organizations. Do you recall
24 that?

04:16

25

04:19
04:19

04:19

A. Yes.

04:19

Page 194
1

A. Training. I have had conversations with

04:16

1

04:16

2 cross. Objection.

2 them about training that they make available
3 throughout the State.

04:16

4

Q. And what sort of training?

5

A. They make available training for the

04:16

11
13

04:19
04:19

6

04:16

8

04:17

04:17

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. That's
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that.

04:19
04:19

Q. Are you aware that government pays expenses

04:19

11 of those employees who participate in writing model

04:17

04:17

04:19

12 codes?

THE WITNESS: Yeah. Just they offer

04:19

04:19

9 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
10

MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the

12 scope of cross.

04:19

Q. Are you aware that governments authorize

7 outside the scope of the cross.

Q. All right. What kind of trainings does the

04:17

13

04:19

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Objection. It's

04:19

14 training, and they put a notice out there in local

04:17

14 outside the scope of the cross.

15 jurisdictions, and people interested in the code

04:17

15

MR. FEE: Also calls for speculation.

16

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I'm not sure.

16 changes can attend that training, and they let our
17 office know about it.
19

04:17

Q. Does CBSC provide any advice to the NFPA

21 California Electrical Code?
23

A. No.

25 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

18
04:17

04:17

Q. No further questions.

19

A. Okay.

20

04:17

04:19
04:19

04:19
04:19
04:20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: We just have a few more 04:20

21 questions. We can probably just ask them from here. 04:20

04:17

22

MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of

24 the cross.

04:19

17 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

20 with respect to the trainings regarding the
22

04:17

04:17

18 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:19

04:19

5 employees to participate in writing model codes?

04:16

9 NFPA hold with respect to the California Electrical
10 Code?

4

04:16

6 California Electrical Code and also the NEC
8

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Outside the scope of

3 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:

04:16

7 throughout California.

Page 196

04:17

04:17

23

MR. NERCESSIAN: Okay.
EXAMINATION

24 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
04:17

25

Q. Just a couple more questions.

Page 195

04:20
04:20
04:20
04:20
Page 197

50 (Pages 194 - 197)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

Does the California Building Standards

04:20

3

A. Yes, we do.

4

Q. Do you offer trainings related to the

04:20
04:20

A. We offer trainings more specifically to the

THE REPORTER: And do you want roughs?
MR. FEE: I don't need one.

MR. YEN: Actually, can you give me one

5 minute?

04:20

6

04:20

7 process and then also for the California Green
9 amend that for nonresidential occupancies.

04:22

04:22
04:22

MS. EHLER: When would your rough be

04:22

04:22

04:20

8

THE REPORTER: Tonight.

04:22

9

04:20

Q. You were asked about whether the NFPA holds

04:22

04:22

7 available?

8 Building Standards Code because we have authority to 04:20
10

MR. YEN: No.

2
4

04:20

04:20

5 Building Standards Code?
6

1
3

2 Commission offer any education and outreach?

MS. EHLER: We'll take a rough.

04:22

10

MR. NERCESSIAN: We'll take a rough.

11 trainings related to the California Electrical Code. 04:20

11

MR. YEN: We don't need it.

12 Is there any reason -- are you aware of any other

12

VIDEO OPERATOR: We're off the record. It's 04:22

04:20

13 organizations that hold trainings related to the
14 California Electrical Code?

04:20

15

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

16

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

(Discussion off the record)

04:22

15

04:21

MR. YEN: We're fine.

04:23

16

04:21

Q. Can you think of any reason another

04:22

14

04:20

17 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
18

13 4:22.

04:20

04:22
04:22

17

04:21

18

19 organization couldn't hold its own training about the 04:21

19

20 California Electrical Code?

20

04:21

21

MR. NERCESSIAN: Objection.

04:21

21

22

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware, no.

04:21

22

04:21

23

23 BY MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER:
24

Q. That's all we have. Thank you.

25

A. Okay.

04:21

24

04:21

25
Page 198

1

MR. FEE: I have no questions.

04:21

2

MR. NERCESSIAN: I have one followup

3 question within the scope of that.
4

04:21

04:21

EXAMINATION

04:21

5 BY MR. NERCESSIAN:
6

04:21

Q. What course materials, if any, does CBSC use 04:21

7 or provide in its trainings regarding the California 04:21
8 Electrical Code?
9

04:21

A. Well, we don't do training for the

04:21

10 California Electrical Code. It's just for the

04:21

11 process, the California Building Standards Code
12 process.
13

04:21

04:21

Q. So there are no course materials that CBSC

04:21

14 provides with respect to the California Electrical
15 Code?

04:21

16

A. No.

04:21

17

Q. Thank you.

18

A. Uh-huh.

04:21

04:21
04:21

19

MR. FEE: Done; right?

04:21

20

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Yes.

21

MR. FEE: I have no other questions.

22

VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record then.

23

THE REPORTER: What counsel want copies?

24

MR. FEE: Yes.

25

MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Yes.

04:21
04:21
04:22
04:22

04:22
04:22

Page 200

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

I, MIA D. MARVELLI, do hereby declare under
penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing
transcript; that I have made any corrections as
appear noted, in ink, initialed by me, or attached
hereto; that my testimony as contained herein, as
corrected, is true and correct.
EXECUTED this ______ day of _________,
20_____, at ___________ ______,___________________.
(City)
(State)

Page 199

__________________________
MIA D. MARVELLI

Page 201

51 (Pages 198 - 201)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1

I, the undersigned, a Certified Shorthand

2 Repo1ter of the State of Califomia, do hereby
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

12
13

14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22
23
24
25

ce1t ify:
That the foregoing proceedings were taken
before me at the time and place herein set forth;
that any witnesses in the foregoing proceedings,
prior to testifying, were duly swom; that a record
of the proceedings was made by me using machine
sho1ihand which was thereafter transcribed under my
direction; that the foregoing transcript is a tme
record of the testimony given.
Fmther, that if the foregoing pe1tains to
the original transcript of a deposition in a Federal
Case, before completion of the proceedings, review o
the transcript [ ] was [ ] was not requested.
I fmther ce1i ify I am neither financially
interested in the action nor a relative or employee
of any attomey or party to this action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date
subscribed my name.
Dated: August 24, 2019

t:~

e_Jl_~

CAK.Klh PhlJhK:,UN, CSR No. 4373

Page202

52 (Page 202)
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[& - 3]
&
& 3:4,13 4:5,14
7:5 9:2,5,14,17
0
01215 1:7 2:7
1
1 1:25 7:4,15 24:9
24:10,13 36:20
47:5,12,19 48:15
49:1 64:5 83:1
103:1 123:10
134:21,21,24
140:14 172:19
1-1 139:24
1-1-17 140:1
10 7:11,19 49:10
83:10 103:9
145:11 150:20,23
151:12
1034 62:18 64:4
74:6
107 7:13
11 49:11 62:18
83:11 103:10
110 65:19 66:6,12
1111 4:8
11344 89:6
1155 3:7
12 35:4 49:12
83:12 103:11
12-16-2016 85:18
12th 4:19
13 49:13 83:13
103:12
1300 5:10
132 7:15
14 13:22 49:14
83:14 103:13
165:2,5

141 7:17
15 49:15 83:15
103:14 145:11
150 7:19
16 49:16 83:16
103:15
160 6:8
16th 172:3
17 49:17 83:17
103:16 139:25
18 49:18 83:18
103:18
180 131:10,11
186 6:9
18930 29:19
19 1:19 2:23 7:4
8:1 37:20 49:19
58:3 60:6 77:8
83:19 103:19
197 6:10
199 6:11
19th 8:13
1:13 1:7 2:7
1st 23:6 35:25 36:2
131:4,18 132:4
133:7,10 135:21
139:16,19 170:8
2
2 7:6 33:3 34:15
49:1 83:1 103:1
113:11 153:18
2.5 93:17,18,20
180:25 181:6
20 49:20 83:20
103:20 201:17
200 135:19,23
2000 146:12
20004-1361 3:9
20004-2541 4:9
2011 79:2

2012 20:15
2013 37:21 78:11
78:16,25 79:7,12
79:18
2014 44:4 110:4,5
168:9 172:7,8,11
172:21,23 173:3,6
2015 139:1
2016 7:11,15 20:7
22:22,25 36:5,10
37:2,14,18 44:1
53:5,7,10,17,21,25
54:3,10,13,21,25
55:6,13,19 56:2,9
71:19,22,25 73:16
77:9,11,25 78:6
84:4,7,19 86:3
87:22 94:17 99:8
99:14 100:11,22
110:7 112:12,19
131:4,17,18 132:3
132:4 133:2,7,10
135:11,21 138:22
139:10,16 140:2
150:15 151:4,25
154:6 155:5 157:2
157:12,14 158:10
167:21,21 170:8,9
170:13,19 171:24
172:3,6,9,12
175:14,14,15
187:4,13,18
2017 43:22 44:21
139:19
2018 144:3
2019 1:19 2:23 7:4
7:8 8:1,13 23:4
35:23 36:4,11,14
43:14,16 44:15
53:6 59:2,6,17
60:9,15,22 76:18

77:4 142:23 143:9
143:17,24 144:6
202:21
202 1:25
202-220-1115 3:10
202-739-5353 4:10
2020 23:6 36:2
21 49:21 83:21
103:21
213-683-9240 3:19
22 49:22 83:22
103:22
22:15 161:13
23 49:23 83:23
103:23
24 7:4 14:6,7,7,10
14:10 19:19 35:4
35:6,23 36:15
37:15,18 41:19,22
41:25 42:11,18
43:5 47:6,12,20
48:15 49:24 83:24
89:11,13,20,22
90:4 93:18 103:24
115:12 134:15
154:7 182:6
202:21
240 2:21
24th 14:12 89:15
25 49:25 82:24
83:25 103:25
263332 176:6
27th 99:11
28 14:12,14
28th 84:7
3
3 7:7 34:18,21
36:23 43:4 49:2
83:2 103:2 154:7
181:20
Page 1

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[32 - adopt]
32 176:11
33 7:6
34 7:7
3465980 1:24
350 3:16
3:08 145:18
4
4 7:8 49:4 57:22
57:25 82:3 83:4
103:3 109:13,14
4373 1:23 2:24
202:25
45 45:19
49 64:3
5
5 7:9 49:5 83:5,6
98:25 103:4 113:2
113:11
506-6671 180:24
50th 3:17
555 4:18
57 7:8
6
6 7:11 49:6 83:6
85:10,13 87:15,16
103:5 115:7
116:23 180:19
625 159:4,5
625.1.1 159:6
650-335-7281 4:21
6995 202:24
7
7 7:13 49:7 74:6,8
74:9 83:7 103:6
107:10,11,13
131:1 134:20
145:21 167:17
169:24 175:11
186:11

70 43:7,8,10 44:6
168:9 172:20
70-567 159:5
7th 3:8 99:11
8
8 6:7 7:15 49:8
83:8 103:7 132:10
132:11,14
8-1-2016 132:24
818 180:24
83 7:9
85 7:11
9
9 7:17 49:9 83:9
103:8 141:20,21
141:24
90071-3426 3:18
916-210-7836 5:12
94104 4:20
95814 5:11
9th 99:8
a
a.m. 2:22 8:2,13
abbreviation 89:7
ability 91:21
able 12:20 32:25
102:8 124:1
174:10,15
accepted 64:15
194:6
access 54:25 55:12
55:19 56:2,8 64:1
67:7,9,15,17 68:2
68:5 69:21 70:12
70:17,18 72:11
73:9 89:24 91:21
92:6,10 93:14
94:8,22,23 95:5,6
95:11,15 96:10,14
120:8,11,25 121:4

123:2,3 131:25
132:2 133:13,16
133:24,25 141:11
173:11 174:16
179:10 181:3
190:5,9,18,22
accessed 59:2,17
72:25
accessibility
124:15 138:5,13
180:16 190:23
accessible 37:6
55:6 134:7
accessing 58:24
91:1,12 92:19
120:3
accomplish 30:17
accuracy 104:21
accurate 12:21
41:15 94:14 99:17
104:25 117:5
170:15 184:1
191:18
acknowledgments
74:7
acquisitions
151:20
acronym 66:11,21
168:3
act 14:3 18:22
45:5
action 7:10 8:22
14:22,23 15:8
18:1 22:10,12
29:1,14 46:3,13
84:21 104:14
130:16 202:17,18
actions 15:1,7
26:18 28:23 29:4
29:11 48:4 98:5
128:17,21 129:10

129:16,25 130:4,7
130:11,20 169:21
170:25
activities 47:25
activity 139:18
actual 157:17
adapted 41:8
add 183:22
added 183:18,18
addition 147:12
additional 45:16
45:22 120:8,25
160:21
additions 191:6
192:3
address 12:7 41:8
124:9
addressed 84:17
addresses 124:7
124:13
adequately 166:24
administer 13:24
14:4 16:21
administered 8:5
35:16
administering
14:16 19:19 21:11
21:19
administers 13:21
administrative
14:3 18:21 36:21
45:5,21 47:5,13,20
47:24 48:7,17
89:7,18,21,23
adopt 28:13,14
40:16 41:22 44:19
64:10 67:5 68:10
68:13,17 103:24
111:17,17 115:11
116:10,17 165:20
165:25 167:12
Page 2

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[adopted - appeals]
adopted 40:23
41:5,7,19,22,25
42:10,18 50:2
64:15 65:5,12
67:8,10,17 69:19
106:12 115:15
116:6 134:18
182:6,16 183:6
adopting 152:8
adoption 21:12,19
22:6 30:6,16
45:12 49:9,14,18
49:23 50:12,20
64:6,8 105:8,14
106:24 116:9
138:23 139:2
adoptive 115:14
adopts 66:11
advertise 159:24
advertising 159:13
159:21
advice 195:19
advisory 45:8
46:22,24 47:4,9
48:19
agencies 14:19
15:23 19:15,18
21:23 29:17 40:15
44:19,22 45:23
47:14 48:1,19
64:10 74:14,20
75:6,15,17 76:16
76:18 77:25 78:4
78:22 79:17,21
103:24 104:9,15
111:17 117:11
127:19,23 128:3
134:18 140:18
141:10 159:24
160:2 169:10,16
170:7 175:21

176:3 182:16,22
183:6,16 186:15
186:25 187:2,9,12
187:15,17,22,24
188:1
agency 15:24,24
17:22 45:14,16,16
46:11 68:9,12,16
69:15 74:2 75:2
105:5 115:11
116:9,16 117:1,14
117:21 118:1,7
127:18 128:23
183:11
ago 24:17 83:14
99:19 100:19
108:16 110:21
143:25 144:1
145:2 196:13
agree 73:8 123:15
123:17 164:18,23
agreement 7:14,20
107:17 108:3,6,19
115:22,25 116:2
116:13 134:21
140:7,23,25 151:9
167:21 171:24
172:1,2,22 173:4,5
175:13 176:18
177:2 187:4
agreements
167:16
ahead 155:11
175:3
air 1:8 2:8
al 8:16
alex 87:21 132:21
alexander 7:16
allow 11:24
110:10

allowed 11:23
112:6 164:1
allowing 111:20
allows 64:14 112:3
112:11,19
alphabetical
140:12
ambiguous 106:3
amend 15:5,8,9
29:7 30:15 35:9
64:10 76:2 78:23
102:13 184:17
198:9
amended 29:4
64:15 67:5,6,8,11
67:18,21,23 68:10
68:13,17 69:14,20
75:22
amending 30:5
amendment 46:18
62:24 76:6,7
159:8,11 170:22
183:17
amendments
40:14 41:10,12
43:9 44:22,24
62:20 63:14,19,23
70:11 75:3,16
80:22 81:7,21
102:9,15 144:25
162:7,12,14 169:4
169:16 171:12,13
171:15 182:15,22
183:5,11,17,21
184:10,16 191:7
191:17 192:4
american 1:4,7 2:4
2:7 4:3 8:15
amount 108:18
126:15,16 152:7
155:24

analysis 103:23
andrew 4:16 9:4
anercessian 4:22
angeles 3:18
annotation 33:8
annotations 34:16
answer 11:12,20
22:16 23:24 26:16
27:3 31:18 32:10
32:23,25 42:21
43:19 50:24 56:23
57:16 64:21,24
65:25 69:25 70:1
70:3 96:3 109:5
111:24 116:21
119:20 124:1
126:5,6 127:2
138:8 148:5 149:5
149:22 155:8
158:16 166:15,16
172:14 189:9
193:12,14
answered 71:7
72:13 73:6 80:6
194:9,16
answering 16:8
56:16 148:18
153:4
answers 12:5,21
anybody 48:18
53:24 57:1 77:21
95:2 145:25 147:3
147:15
apart 155:4,17
156:1
apologies 109:14
apologize 15:5
70:6 120:13,18
128:23
appeals 24:23
47:25
Page 3

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[appear - available]
appear 32:19 34:9
54:24 68:21,24
69:1 85:20 133:15
201:13
appearances 3:1
4:1 5:1
appears 33:16
34:23 55:7,12
58:3 69:14 89:5
98:19 99:7 107:17
154:21 155:24
176:16
appendices 115:10
applicable 106:6
application 47:1
73:24
applied 182:9
applies 42:24 51:6
135:12
apply 41:25 42:1,6
42:8,11,15,19
104:15 106:24
appointed 16:2,14
16:17,25 17:6
appointments
17:9
appropriate
100:10 106:8
approval 21:12
22:2,7 106:17
approve 14:22,25
15:3,5,8,9,9 29:4
29:14 46:14
approved 22:18
29:19 65:1
approves 14:21
29:7 30:13 171:17
approving 29:9
145:22 146:25
170:25

approximately
20:6 47:7
arbitrary 29:24
105:19
architect 20:14,22
20:24 21:18 66:15
128:14 129:1,3,6
129:11
architectural
20:13,16,24 21:17
23:16,18 78:20
118:11 119:4
archive 33:6,8,9
33:12,22
area 178:22 179:5
areas 160:20
194:13
armen 4:15 9:1
39:12
article 64:10 65:19
66:5,12 67:5
68:10,13,17 159:4
159:5
articles 64:12 67:7
67:10,17 193:20
193:22
articulating
104:11
aside 135:16
153:20 154:2,10
154:25 155:3
158:1,8
asked 12:17 56:22
71:6 72:12 73:5
121:20 168:12
173:25 174:4
177:16 179:21
182:8,10,13 194:8
194:15 198:10
asking 11:12,18
39:17 52:15 64:19

71:13 77:19 80:10
81:17 96:4 98:9
154:14 157:16,24
157:25 193:14
assembled 22:18
45:7 46:25
assembles 20:2
45:19
asserted 77:1,4,13
79:7,11,18,22 80:2
80:14 81:4,19
associate 20:13,14
20:17,21,23,24
21:10,17,18 23:16
23:18 78:20
118:12
associated 33:14
association 1:6 2:6
3:3 7:25 9:15,18
44:8,10 62:3
107:20 134:12
160:20 168:2
assume 164:3
astm 1:5 2:5 4:4
9:20
attach 86:25
attached 201:13
attachment 83:22
98:24,25 99:4
136:2,3 138:21
175:18,20 176:1,2
176:6,9,10,10,23
177:7,8,10,11,14
178:4 186:22,24
attachments 83:19
136:7,9 187:21
attempted 60:4,6
174:7
attend 195:16
attended 196:10
196:13

attention 64:2
74:5 87:13 88:1
88:12 109:13
113:3 115:7
116:23 123:9
130:25 132:25
134:19,20 138:20
140:6,13 151:12
153:19 154:5
attorney 3:6,15
4:7 5:7,9,16 9:7
84:25 108:14
202:18
attorneys 4:17
audible 11:5
audience 48:14
august 1:19 2:23
7:15 8:1,13 133:7
133:10 202:21
authenticate
157:16,21,22,25
authenticity 34:2
153:24 154:20
158:2,10,22
authority 17:8
67:4 127:24 198:8
authorize 197:4
authorized 41:11
115:11 117:1
automatically
175:14
available 33:12
38:18,22 48:18
51:18 52:8,21,24
54:14,16 63:6,15
63:25 67:19 70:14
70:24 71:15 117:2
117:5,20,22,25
121:5,8,14 122:5
126:18 131:22
132:3 133:13,16
Page 4

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[available - building]
133:24 138:1,5,12
139:3,3 140:17
141:2,6,7 170:6
173:23 174:22,24
175:5,7 179:23
180:1,8,12,16
188:12,17,19
189:21 190:14
195:2,5 200:7
avenue 3:16 4:8
aware 25:9 39:18
54:9,18 55:5
59:20,23,25 60:2,2
60:8 72:10 74:19
75:24 76:15,17,25
77:3,12,21,24 79:6
79:17,21 80:1,13
81:3 82:14 90:4
90:17,20,25 92:10
94:3,5,18 95:2,3
95:10,14,21 99:22
118:6 121:3,25
122:21,23 125:12
126:8 127:19
129:10 131:16
133:6 135:6,15
138:11 141:1
144:24 147:16
150:3,8,12 153:8
159:20,23 160:1
171:4,11,16
179:10,14,24
180:4,6,10,14
187:11 188:13,18
189:18 190:11,15
190:16,17,20,21
190:24 192:8,23
193:3,8 197:4,8,10
198:12,22
awareness 72:22
77:19 78:4,9

81:18 126:20
196:22
awhile 143:25
b
b 1:5 2:5 4:4 98:25
99:4 115:7 136:3
140:6,14 175:20
176:2,23 177:10
177:11 178:4
186:24
back 49:5 83:1
84:4 86:14 87:22
98:24 103:19
130:25 134:19
144:21 145:17,20
149:7 153:18
160:14 169:24
171:25 175:7
177:13 186:6
bad 149:8
banner 159:7
barbu 5:16 9:9,9
barely 139:24
based 29:12 43:6
43:17 44:2 79:1
105:22 116:12
168:15 175:24
basis 29:17 111:18
bcs 19:22
beginning 2:22
begins 170:1 182:1
behalf 2:20 9:14
9:17,20
believe 29:19 37:7
61:9 76:2 79:2
86:4,7 94:16
104:18 107:10
141:20 145:24
155:18 173:8
benefit 18:25
105:23

benny 146:8,19
147:18,22 148:9
best 29:22 105:16
beyond 131:10
195:11,23 196:6
bid 142:8,10,23
143:17,24 144:6
bids 142:13
binders 154:15
bit 161:5 162:18
173:10
blank 98:16
blend 40:17
blurb 41:15
blurry 139:7
bni 7:20 53:5,15
53:17,18 54:4,11
54:13,22 56:7,25
57:1,8,18 70:19
71:20 72:1 73:17
73:23 74:1 77:20
81:12 96:11 101:8
114:20 151:10
board 130:19
bockius 4:5
bodies 182:17
183:13
body 32:20 88:2
bottom 35:11
85:17 107:21
116:24 176:6
178:5,11
break 12:9,11
33:24 48:23 82:20
99:2 102:17
104:19 145:11
bridges 4:16 9:4,4
bringing 104:13
broad 32:4 80:16
108:1 112:5
122:12,16 124:1

125:1,16 126:2
127:1 128:11
144:16 147:25
185:8 193:11,14
broadly 80:10
broken 91:18,22
92:1 179:17
bsc 19:6,22 20:10
35:14,21 37:3,6,11
37:18 55:7,13
60:21 71:4,15
72:4 73:1,3 92:22
93:12 101:12
102:1,5,20 103:2,6
139:3 149:7 159:6
180:25
bsc's 102:19
budget 19:23
buff 114:4
build 51:15
builder 125:22
building 5:3 7:23
9:8,11 13:17,19,22
14:1,9 16:16,18
17:10 19:3,8
21:13,20 22:2,7,11
23:8,9,20 24:4
26:9,11,25 27:12
27:19,23 28:8,16
28:17,23 29:6,18
30:4 31:22 34:25
35:22 36:5,10
37:2,10 38:22
39:16,21,22 40:8,9
40:11,13 41:4,6,10
45:3,5,18 47:2
51:16,17 52:20,23
52:24,25 54:19
63:13,24 67:15
73:25 75:18 84:21
99:12,22 100:20
Page 5

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[building - calls]
101:3,18 102:14
102:23 104:10,12
104:22,23 105:2,8
105:15,18,23
106:2,11,15 107:5
107:19 111:16
117:9 119:5
121:17 122:15,17
122:22 123:2
126:21 127:15,17
127:20 128:9,12
128:15,22 129:7
129:17,21 130:1,8
130:12,17,21,23
131:12 133:2
142:24 144:8,13
151:17 158:24
159:7,17 161:4
163:8,13 164:6
165:17 166:4
183:13 184:20
185:2,4,13 189:19
190:12 198:1,5,8
199:11
buildings 23:14
24:1 42:6,15
118:13,19 119:14
124:21,22,23
125:4 128:16
129:4,8,13,22
182:9 184:14
built 119:14
123:13,21 124:4
124:24
bureau 127:10
c
c 138:21 140:8
ca 62:23
cacacac 159:10
california 1:18
2:21 3:18 4:18,20

5:3,5,11,17 7:8,13
7:19,23 8:1,19 9:6
9:8 13:22 14:1,9
14:13,13 17:10
19:9 21:13,20
23:7,9,20 24:4
28:13,14 30:4
31:21 32:20 34:12
34:25 36:5,10,20
36:23 37:2,10
38:20,21 39:14,15
39:18,20 40:8,9,12
40:14,15 41:10,11
41:18 42:1,17,25
43:5,6,9,16 44:1
44:15 46:6 47:5
47:13,20,23 48:7
50:2 51:6,14,15,17
51:24 52:7,7,12,13
52:22 53:4,10,22
53:25 54:3,10,18
55:1,19 56:2,9
58:3 59:2,18 60:5
60:9,15,22 61:18
62:12,14,20,24
63:14,16,22,23
64:6,20 66:7
69:11 70:10 72:17
72:23 73:9,18,22
73:24 74:3,12,21
75:3,7,18,23 76:2
76:7,10,19 77:1,4
77:9,11 78:1,6,11
78:16,23 79:1,8,12
79:19,23 80:3,15
80:18,19,22 81:6,6
81:20,22 82:6,12
82:15 89:10,15,19
89:25 90:5,6,12,21
91:2,11 92:5,11
93:21,22 95:12,16

95:19 96:1,9,20,25
97:3,7,11,15,20,23
98:3,5,13,18 99:13
99:24 100:11,22
101:4,13,20 102:2
102:13,13 103:1,5
103:6 107:5,19
112:8,12,20 116:5
117:3,7,15,16
118:2,8 121:8
127:5,10,15,17,20
128:15,22 129:7
129:17 130:1,6,8
130:10,12,15,17
130:21 131:17,21
132:3 133:9,12,21
133:22 135:11
136:19 138:4,9
140:2 142:24
144:8,12,24,25
151:16 154:6,7,22
155:5,19 156:3,20
156:23 157:2,5,13
157:14,20 158:11
158:20 159:11,14
159:21,24 160:2
161:4 164:5,19
165:5,16 166:4,18
168:14,18,25
169:4,7,11,17
170:6,22 171:1,5
171:13,13,15,17
177:18 178:23
179:11,18,22
180:7,11,15 181:9
181:17 182:5,21
184:6,9,18,20
185:2,14 187:13
187:18 188:12,20
189:2,3,19,20
190:12,13 191:2,4

191:7,16,17 192:1
192:4,11,18,24
193:1,6 195:6,7,9
195:21 198:1,7,11
198:14,20 199:7
199:10,11,14
202:2
california's 22:2,7
41:9 171:22
call 47:1 64:2
87:13 88:1,12
93:10 103:12
109:13 113:3
115:6 116:23
123:9 130:25
132:25 134:19,20
138:20 140:6,13
149:1 151:12
153:19 180:24
called 38:2 45:7
113:23 122:13
136:10,11
calling 153:25
calls 50:21 51:10
55:14 57:3 58:21
62:8 67:12 69:7
69:22 70:13,20
71:21 72:18 75:9
76:13,21 77:14
82:8 84:11 86:10
88:24 90:14 91:3
91:13,16 92:18
95:20 96:2,22
97:8,16,25 99:18
100:24 101:15
103:8 106:25
109:2,21 110:11
111:2,9,22 112:13
112:23 116:19
118:3,21 119:6,18
121:10 125:25
Page 6

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[calls - code]
126:11,12,22,24
127:7 132:5
133:17 137:2
142:14 144:15,19
146:2 149:19,25
162:4 163:5
179:17,18 189:6
189:14 192:6,19
197:15
capacity 10:11
118:12 119:4
capitol 2:21 8:18
capricious 29:24
105:19
carl 152:24 153:9
carrie 1:22 2:23
202:25
carried 67:24 68:3
69:2
carry 44:22
case 1:6 2:6 13:5
25:19,22,25 33:1
44:10,20 53:3
68:1,3,20 69:5,10
69:12,13 77:8
115:6 202:14
cases 31:25 32:2,7
44:23 92:16,18
categories 41:14
cause 155:18
caution 84:24
88:14,17 108:13
cbsc 7:16 19:4
35:6 37:1,9,17
44:14 85:23,24
86:2,8 87:1,4,8,10
90:10,13,18,22
91:10,20 92:10
94:5,21 95:4
103:23 109:20
110:2,10,24 111:7

111:14,20 113:6
113:15,18 114:8
114:11,17,22,22
115:11 116:2,4
123:1 135:1,4,20
137:19,22,25
145:21 146:5,15
151:10 161:3,15
164:4,19 166:12
166:12 170:9
175:22 177:2
179:16,22,25
180:6,10,14
181:22 186:15,25
187:12,17,24
189:19 190:12,18
190:22 195:19
196:4 199:6,13
cbsc's 113:7
cec 106:24 110:7
164:7 166:22
167:5,22 170:9,13
170:19,22 172:6
173:11,12,16,18
174:1,5,10,21
175:14,14,15
176:19 179:6
certain 27:8 37:12
124:23,24 126:15
126:16 148:7
179:23
certainly 16:9
certified 2:24
202:1
certify 202:3,16
cg 159:6
chance 16:8
change 18:23 21:4
21:7 29:9 35:8
40:24,25 41:5
57:16

changes 45:1,12
code 7:8,19 14:2,4
45:17,17 113:5,24
14:9,13 17:11,19
148:10 163:9
18:21,23 20:1
195:16
22:20,21,22 23:2
chapter 64:5
24:4 27:25 28:3
chapters 115:9
29:7,20,24 31:4,7
characterize 94:10
31:12,20,22,23
charges 141:9,10
32:15,19,20,24
chart 138:25
34:12 35:10 36:5
choice 117:18
36:10,21,24 37:3,6
choices 117:20
37:8,11,19,20 38:1
choose 117:11,12
38:9,11,22 40:8,10
167:12
40:13 43:5,6,11,13
chooses 30:15
43:15,16,23 44:1,2
circumstances
44:4,15,20,21 45:8
113:22
45:12,17 46:6,22
cited 88:23
47:4,5,8,13,21,24
cities 122:11
48:17,17,19 49:20
citizen 189:2
50:1,4,10 51:8,18
citizens 123:13,22
51:25 52:8,22
124:5
53:4,10,17,22,25
city 122:18 177:22
53:25 54:3,10,14
177:25 178:5,9,12
55:1,7,13,20 56:3
178:15,18 201:18
56:9 58:3 59:3,7
civil 7:10
59:18,20 60:5,7,10
claimed 168:14
60:15,22 61:18,23
claiming 33:21,23
62:13,14,20,25
168:16,24 169:3
63:16 64:9,11,14
64:20 65:3,10,11
clarification 11:13
65:20,25 66:6,8
58:12,13,15
67:9,16,25 68:4
clarify 39:12 40:1
69:6,14 70:9,15,25
80:24 96:8 168:15
71:9,19,23 72:17
clarity 148:1,7
72:24 73:10,16,18
clean 193:6
73:24 74:12,21
clear 52:14 80:18
75:3,8,11,18,23
188:13
76:3,11,19 77:2,5
clicking 123:6
77:6,10,12 78:1,6
client 84:25
78:12,17,23 79:1,4
clip 102:8,11
79:8,12,19,24 80:3
closest 122:1
80:15,20 81:6,23
177:17
Page 7

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[code - commissions]
141:4,5,11 150:18
82:6,12,15 88:14
152:1 154:6,7,22
88:18,22 89:5,10
155:6,19 156:3,11
89:13,15,19,25
156:12,20,23
90:5,7,13,21 91:1
157:2,5,13,14,20
91:2,12,12,17 92:5
158:6,11,20 159:1
92:11,19 93:12,14
159:14,21,24
93:20,21,23,24
160:2 161:4 162:7
94:8,22 95:5,6,12
162:14,20,24,25
95:16,19 96:1,21
163:8,9,10,13
97:1,4,7,12,15,20
164:5,6,20,21
97:23 98:4,6,12,14
165:6,11,18,21
98:19,20 99:14,24
168:3,9,13,14,17
100:11,22 101:5
168:18,25 169:8
101:10,13,20
169:12,17,22
102:3,6,9,10,25
171:2,6,14,17,23
103:1,7,25 111:8
172:7,21 173:16
111:11,14,18,21
174:15 175:5
111:21 112:7,12
177:18 178:23
112:20 113:25
179:11,19,23
114:2,3,5,12
180:3,7,11,15,25
115:13,21 116:5,8
181:3,6,10,17
116:17,18 117:6
183:23 184:7,9,17
117:10,12,15,16
185:14 187:14,19
117:21,24,25
188:12,20 189:3
118:1,2,7,8,20,25
189:20,20,24
119:1,4,13,16,23
190:1,3,7,13,14
120:6,7,12,17,20
191:2,2,5,6,16
120:25 121:8,14
192:2,3,11,24,25
121:23 122:2,5,22
193:1,6 195:6,10
123:2,12,20 124:4
195:15,21 196:2,5
124:7,9,12,23
196:19,22 198:5,8
125:3,14,24
198:11,14,20
126:10 127:6
199:8,10,11,15
131:4,7,18,22
132:3 133:2,10,12 code's 34:24 35:1
133:3
133:22 134:1,7,17
134:18 135:11,20 coded 47:1
codes 7:7 21:13,20
136:18,24 137:6
22:3,7 23:9,20
137:13,20,22
28:12,15,18,25
138:1,4,12,22
29:2 35:14 37:25
139:2 140:3,17

38:2 40:15 41:6,8
41:13,18,22,25
42:10,18 44:20
49:16,17,24 51:3
52:25,25 96:9,10
96:12,13,14,15,17
96:19 106:7 112:8
114:25 115:3
118:12,14,15
127:17,21,24
128:1,15,22 129:7
129:17 130:2,8,13
130:17,21 133:23
134:16 140:4
142:25 144:12,21
145:1 148:8 152:8
152:22 161:19
163:1 165:17,24
166:12,13,18
167:13 179:25
182:6 183:22
184:2 197:5,12
collaborated 75:6
75:11,13
collaborative
74:13
color 114:4
columbia 1:2 2:2
24:24
column 66:19,25
67:1,1
columns 66:18
combustibility
124:21
come 12:4 104:7
comes 187:22
comment 14:20
18:5,8 20:19
45:20
comments 45:22
45:23 46:9

commercial 57:8
57:19
commission 5:3
7:24 9:8,12 13:18
13:20,21 14:21
19:3,9,11 22:9,11
22:18 23:8 26:9
26:12,25 27:12,19
27:23 28:8,17,24
29:6 30:4,13,15,17
30:23 35:1,22
39:16,21,23 40:2
45:3,18 46:2,2,4,8
46:13 47:2,8 48:4
48:20 51:17 52:13
52:21 63:14,24
65:2 67:16 73:25
84:22 99:12,23
100:20 101:3,19
102:14,24 104:13
104:14,14 106:12
107:6,19 117:10
127:16 130:7,16
130:24 131:9
144:9 151:17
158:24 159:7,18
164:6 165:17
169:19 171:1
198:2
commission's
54:19
commissioner
16:25
commissioners
13:23 15:14,20,23
15:24,25 16:13,17
17:14,21,23 18:9
18:14 165:11
167:6 169:10
commissions
167:12
Page 8

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[commitments - copies]
commitments
110:25
committee 45:8,8
46:22,24 47:4,6
48:20
committees 47:9
common 75:17
communications
84:25 108:14
148:15 153:2,6,9
153:14
community 66:22
75:25 76:9 128:4
130:20
company 120:21
152:22
compilation 40:10
87:14 89:8,18
93:5
complete 12:21
37:17 136:10
176:16 177:21
completed 172:9
completely 12:6
161:23 173:3
completion 202:14
compliance 45:4
127:16,20 128:15
128:21 129:6,16
130:1,7,12,21
compliant 125:23
126:9
complied 24:3
complimentary
135:19,23 136:5
175:13 187:4,13
187:18,25
comply 126:21
185:6
complying 185:16

comprise 106:20
concerning 112:19
147:23 196:5
conclusion 50:22
51:11 77:15 88:25
103:9 107:1 109:3
109:22 110:12
111:3,10,23
112:14,24 126:13
126:25 127:8
189:7,15
concrete 124:15
conditioning 1:8
2:8
conditions 73:9
conduct 13:4,7
14:19 18:10 20:1
20:3
conducted 142:7
confirm 61:14
104:20
confirming 56:23
conflict 29:23
104:23
consequence
127:13
consequences
125:12,22 126:8
127:4,11
considered 45:15
46:9
considering
116:16
consist 17:15
consistent 106:12
152:1 155:5,13,15
156:10
consisting 194:23
consists 192:11
constitutes 41:12
47:13,20

construct 118:13
118:18 119:5
constructing
119:14
construction 17:3
23:25 24:3 129:4
129:12
constructions
129:7
consult 119:4
consultation
134:25
consulting 135:4
151:2
contact 91:25
contain 41:5 63:19
125:3 193:20
contained 201:14
containing 82:3
contains 83:18
123:10,11 191:5
192:2
content 170:19
171:5,9,23 173:5
contents 148:24
149:9
context 49:13 50:4
64:22 94:13 135:7
135:8 153:6
continued 4:1 5:1
contract 101:7,22
102:20,21,23
103:1,4,5 108:21
108:22,23 109:1,8
109:9,14 110:17
110:25 111:15
112:3,11,19 115:7
116:14 135:13,25
142:8 145:22,24
146:17,20,22
147:1,4,9,13,18,21

147:23 148:7,10
148:13,24 149:2,5
149:11 150:4,10
150:15 151:4,25
152:9,9 168:20
186:11 194:1,4,6
194:23
contractor 17:4
127:5
contracts 107:5
111:7 148:20
149:8 150:15,17
151:20 152:1,5,6
contribute 62:7
75:17
contributed 62:14
74:20 75:2,2,15
contribution 76:6
contributions
74:17 76:1,10,18
76:20 77:25 78:2
78:5 79:23
conversation
104:4 191:3
conversations
13:10 147:3,8,20
193:24 194:3,23
194:25 195:1
coordinating
153:5
coordination 7:17
142:2,5
copies 117:6,24
135:19,23 136:5
170:9 174:21,24
175:13,21,25
176:2,19 177:3
186:14,24 187:2,4
187:9,13,18,25
188:12,20 199:23

Page 9
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[copy - depends]
copy 33:19 60:8
86:12 102:8,11,15
110:3 119:24
157:5,17 175:19
177:18 178:23
189:2 193:6
copying 61:17
copyright 26:1
76:9,19 77:1,4,13
78:1,5 79:7,11,18
79:22 80:2,14
81:4 168:2,8,14,16
168:24 169:3
172:20,23
copyrighted 81:1
81:16 172:12
corner 62:18
correct 12:6 17:7
19:4,7 20:8 24:20
30:6 35:16,19
36:3,6,12,21,24,25
37:11,22,23 38:4
38:18 39:9,11
42:25 46:19 47:21
48:8 51:19 54:12
56:24 58:6 60:23
61:1 62:25 68:14
69:3 70:25 71:16
71:20 72:1,4 73:4
74:9,22 79:16
83:16 84:7,17
87:16 92:6 100:14
102:3 109:20
120:4 122:20
123:8 124:8 134:5
140:5 165:2
166:10,11 170:11
173:20 174:9,11
175:24 181:11,13
181:14,15,17,18
183:19 184:4

185:2 191:8,10,13
192:5 201:15
corrected 114:8
120:17 201:15
corrections 130:20
201:12
correctly 139:15
correlated 163:12
corridor 125:13
125:20,23 126:9
126:16
corridors 125:8
cost 18:25 105:22
173:18
council 38:9,12
93:24 190:3,8
council's 162:25
counsel 8:8,25
199:23
counsel's 82:2
count 177:6
counterclaimant
1:14 2:14
counterdefendants
1:11 2:11
county 122:18
couple 24:17
48:23 83:13 144:2
197:25
course 12:10 26:8
27:11,18,22 199:6
199:13
court 1:1 2:1
10:24 11:1,16
24:23
cover 33:20,21,23
34:13,16 153:21
153:25 155:1,4,18
156:2 157:12
158:9

covered 41:12
create 110:6
111:21 145:6
criteria 29:13,15
29:21 30:3,7,8,10
30:12 46:13,16,17
103:23 104:5,8,9
104:16,19,21
105:1,7,13,17,21
106:1,5,10,14,19
106:21,23 166:18
167:2
critical 131:5
cross 195:12,24
196:7 197:2,7,14
crr 1:23
csr 1:23 202:25
current 13:16
22:22
currently 13:14
37:1,9,17
cv 1:7 2:7
cycle 44:25 47:25
67:25 68:4 69:3
69:16 138:23
139:2,6,6 143:10
143:17,24 144:6
149:9 152:8
d
d 1:5,17 2:5,19 4:4
6:3 8:4 201:10,22
d.c. 3:9 4:9
dar 1:7 2:7
date 85:17 131:4,8
131:9,10,12,19,23
139:7,23,24 140:1
140:4 170:8
202:19
dated 99:7 132:23
202:21

dates 100:2
day 12:10 45:19
103:22 201:16
days 131:10,11
deal 165:17
december 99:8
decision 100:21
declaration 10:16
declare 201:10
defendant 1:14
2:14 4:13 9:2
defendant's 7:2
defendants 2:20
defining 76:4,5
definition 75:13
128:11
delegate 128:6
deleted 115:18
deliver 134:15
136:24 137:6,13
137:19,22 175:13
175:25 176:19
177:3 186:14
187:4,12,17,25
demand 95:5
department 5:6,18
7:18,21 9:9 19:9
23:17,19 35:19
66:22 75:20,25
76:8 107:18
118:11,14 120:23
122:15,17 128:4
128:12 130:11
143:23 151:15
department's
120:24
departments
122:22 123:2
128:9
depends 122:19

Page 10
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[depicted - documents]
depicted 138:25
139:1
depo 7:6
deposit 175:17
176:1,2 186:21
deposition 1:17
2:19 7:10 8:14
10:3 12:25 24:20
34:14,21 83:16
202:13
depositories 187:9
depository 135:24
136:1,10,12
175:20 176:16
177:1,22
deputy 86:6
derived 105:23
describe 44:14
described 44:6
161:6
description 7:3
40:9
design 23:13,25
118:12,18 119:5
126:21
designations
136:15
designing 119:13
detail 28:3 161:7
161:14
detailed 161:16,20
details 139:8
170:1
determination
15:18 46:11 157:7
167:11
determine 103:24
184:19 185:1,5,15
determined 30:1
106:16

determines 183:13
determining
170:18 171:22
develop 22:19
104:10 152:5
161:3 162:19
163:1 164:5
developed 24:2
44:14 74:13 152:7
152:10
developer 189:25
190:1
developers 27:25
28:4 37:19 134:2
150:18
developing 75:7
116:5 144:12
151:3 161:22
164:7 169:7,11
development 26:3
27:18,22 66:23
74:21 75:25 76:9
78:11,16 102:6,10
102:25 128:4
129:25 163:10
196:22,23
develops 103:2
dgs 7:15 19:11,12
35:18 132:18
142:7 145:24
146:25 147:4,8,12
147:13,15 153:12
dictated 173:5
dictating 171:5,9
diem 45:10
differ 50:19
difference 22:5
27:25 28:1 136:14
different 15:23
16:15,16 29:14
36:17 40:11 114:4

122:13,14 178:21
differently 90:6
difficult 164:19,24
difficulties 92:9
difficulty 96:5,7
direct 154:5
directed 48:6
175:21 186:15,25
187:10,12,17,25
direction 202:10
directly 33:16
61:7 175:17
director 9:11
13:17 19:22 20:5
86:6
directs 37:25 38:3
disabled 136:24
137:20 179:24
180:1 189:21
190:9
disapprove 14:25
15:3,8,10
disclosures 143:10
discuss 18:22 29:3
discussed 40:20
93:5 96:11 128:10
196:21
discussing 54:22
89:11 103:22
106:21 107:4
discussion 16:4
80:23 200:14
discussions 25:22
135:9 147:17
148:20,23 193:9
193:16 194:19,22
display 35:1
displayed 99:12
99:23 100:8,9
dispute 24:24
25:12,20

distance 126:15
distinctions 191:1
distinguish 62:13
62:19 64:14
distribute 135:19
distribution
134:25 135:3,6,10
135:14,15
district 1:1,2 2:1,2
24:23
division 5:19 7:23
9:10 66:15 107:18
128:13 129:1,3,5
129:11 151:16
document 19:2
24:8,12,14,16 34:5
34:22 57:24 58:1
61:1 64:22 74:6
74:25 83:9,10,18
83:23,25 84:2,14
84:19,23 85:8,12
85:14,14,16,20
87:14,18,20,24
88:9,13 93:5
94:10 99:4,6
107:14,16,25
108:4,8,9,12 132:9
132:13,15,17,20
132:23 133:1
136:3 138:20
141:19,23,25
150:19,22,23,25
151:2,6,9,13
153:22 154:11,18
154:23 157:16,17
158:10,19 179:1
document's 156:7
documents 13:1,2
13:8 14:18 20:18
21:23 45:2 46:1
48:3 78:22,24
Page 11

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[documents - enforce]
84:9 85:3,5 86:8
86:20,24 87:1,4,7
87:10 151:3
161:18
doing 82:18
166:23
doj.ca.gov 5:13
dollar 108:21,22
108:25 109:9
domain 58:5,17
doubt 133:20
156:2 157:1,13
158:2,10
draft 146:19
169:16
drafted 173:4
drafting 146:10,11
170:22
drafts 171:12,12
drawings 24:3
dsa 66:11,14
duly 202:7
duplicate 29:23
104:23
duties 123:14
e
earlier 17:13 18:3
20:21 29:2 43:4
46:17 47:19 51:16
68:7 69:16 70:23
73:2 78:21 102:19
103:22 116:9
120:17 161:6
165:1 166:7,17
167:19 168:12
169:21 174:25
175:4 177:16
179:16 180:19,20
196:21
edition 22:20,21
22:23,25 23:2,4

35:10,23 36:4,11
36:15 37:2,10,14
37:17,21 44:15,19
44:23,24 53:5,6,7
53:10 54:4,21
58:4 65:2 79:2
99:14 100:12,22
101:9 103:1 111:8
112:7,8 140:2
142:24 146:17
150:15 163:12
168:9 172:21,23
191:5 192:2
editions 70:15,18
70:24
editorial 170:4
edits 108:9,12
147:21,22 194:5
education 170:4
198:2
effect 35:9 36:2,4
36:11 124:3
effective 22:22
23:5 36:11 131:9
131:12 139:7,24
140:1,4
effects 123:12,20
effectuate 110:25
116:2
effort 137:25
efforts 74:14
136:24 137:6,13
138:4,11 179:22
egress 124:20,22
125:4
ehler 3:14 8:10
9:16,16 200:6,9
either 14:25 86:3
158:15 160:3
elaborate 77:10

electric 99:14
electrical 7:8,19
16:21 34:12 36:23
43:5,6,11,13,15,16
43:22,25 44:2,4,15
44:20,21 46:6
51:7,25 52:7 53:4
53:10,17,22,25,25
54:3,10,14 55:1,7
55:13,19 56:2,9
58:3 59:3,7,18
60:5,7,10,15,22
61:18,23 62:13,14
63:16 64:11,20
65:19 66:8 72:17
72:23 73:10,18,24
74:12,21 75:3,7,11
75:23 76:3,11,19
77:1,5,10,12 78:1
78:6,12,17,23 79:1
79:4,8,12,19,24
80:3,15,20 81:6,23
82:6,12,15 91:2,11
92:5,11 99:24
100:11,22 101:5
101:13,20 102:3
103:1,7 112:12,20
116:5 117:12,15
117:16 118:2,8
121:8 127:6
131:18,22 132:3
133:10,12,22
134:6 135:11
140:2 154:6,22
155:5,19 156:3,20
156:23 157:2,5,13
157:14,20 158:11
158:20 159:14,21
159:24 160:2
162:14,19,24
164:5,5,20,21

165:5,18,21 168:3
168:9,14,17,18,25
169:7,11,17 171:2
171:6,13,17,23
172:7,20 177:18
178:23 179:11,18
179:23 180:3,7,11
180:15 181:9,17
184:6,9 185:14
187:14,19 188:12
188:20 189:3,20
190:13 191:2,2,5,6
191:16 192:2,3,11
192:24,25 193:6
195:6,9,21 196:2,5
196:19 198:11,14
198:20 199:8,10
199:14
elements 164:20
email 7:11,15
87:21 132:19,21
133:9,15,21
180:20 181:16
emails 85:21,22
87:7
emergencies 35:8
emergency 175:16
employed 13:14
20:14 23:7
employee 202:17
employees 197:5
197:11
employment 13:16
26:8 27:12,19,23
28:7
enabling 105:3
encountered 91:1
91:12
energy 130:6
enforce 127:24,25
128:21 129:16,20
Page 12

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[enforce - fee]
130:1,7,12,16,20
enforcement
127:18,19 128:7
128:17 129:19
enforces 129:6
enforcing 128:14
129:11
engineers 1:9 2:9
enormous 155:24
ensure 19:23
entail 13:25 14:17
entails 142:17
enter 103:4 108:23
entering 142:7
entire 39:14,20
52:12,17,18 64:10
64:22 66:11 67:5
68:10,13,17 69:14
82:12 89:19 169:8
192:24
entirely 191:10
entirety 63:3
64:15 65:6,12
67:8,10,17 69:20
entities 142:13
163:9
entity 53:18,24
73:18 142:9
159:20
environment
123:13,21 124:4
errata 113:23
114:1,17,23
175:16
error 114:3,6,6,12
114:12,13
errors 113:5,16,20
114:8
essence 123:11,14
essential 129:4,8
129:12

establish 11:4
134:25
established 43:4
68:7 73:2 105:3
135:4 140:19
et 8:16
exact 17:12 21:2
72:3 143:7
exactly 80:25
156:11,12 176:12
examination 6:7,8
6:9,10,11 8:7
160:16 186:8,13
188:10 190:25
197:23 199:4
examined 8:5
example 16:18,24
66:10 75:20 125:6
135:13 162:13
163:8,13 171:24
183:4
examples 114:7,15
excerpted 63:3
excerpting 140:17
exchange 93:6
exclude 148:15
excluding 153:14
exclusive 105:4
excuse 41:7
107:18 165:25
171:12
executed 201:16
executive 9:11
13:17 19:21 20:5
86:6 145:24
exhibit 7:4,6,7,8,9
7:11,13,15,17,19
24:9,10,13,22 33:3
34:15,18,20,21
37:13 40:7 57:22
57:25 59:12 63:3

65:14 82:1,3,4
83:6 85:10,13
87:15,16 98:25
107:9,11,13
109:14 131:1
132:11,14 134:20
134:22 136:2,2
138:20 140:6
141:21,24 145:21
146:13,14 150:20
150:23 153:18,20
153:21 167:17,25
169:24 170:1
175:7,11 176:9,10
176:23 177:11,13
178:3 180:19
181:20,21 186:11
186:12
exhibits 7:1
181:20
existed 150:9
existing 44:22
exit 124:24 125:8
125:13,20,23
126:9
expenses 197:10
experience 23:9
28:10 58:24 59:11
119:12,23
expert 156:19,23
157:20 184:12
experts 45:9 47:10
163:16
express 17:16,18
17:24 18:2,4,10
45:25
expressly 105:4
extent 94:9 191:13
extract 97:19,22
174:5

f
f 3:7
facilities 118:13
118:19
fact 172:11
failure 127:5
fair 165:16 169:9
179:4
fairly 82:4
familiar 26:2 34:4
50:6 59:13 72:25
126:14 161:21
162:9,20,23,24
familiarity 28:6,9
59:5,9 161:24
far 108:21 128:5
139:25
farther 168:7
february 20:7
federal 202:13
fee 4:6 8:11 9:19
9:19 26:5,20 27:1
27:13 30:18 31:16
31:24 32:3,9
33:20,25 34:6
36:7 38:23 39:2
44:11 47:17 48:10
48:16 49:25 51:9
51:22 52:1 53:11
55:2,8,21 56:4,10
57:3,10,14 58:10
58:19 59:14,22
60:11,17 61:4
63:2,7,9 64:16,19
65:13,22 67:12
69:7,22 70:13,20
71:10,21 72:5
73:19 74:23 75:9
76:13 82:8 84:10
86:10 88:24 90:1
91:3,15,24 94:9,24
Page 13

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[fee - general]
95:7,20 96:2,22
97:8,16,25 99:18
100:4 126:11,22
132:5 142:14,19
144:15,19 145:7
153:25 154:12,14
185:22 189:4,5,13
192:19 195:11,23
196:6,12,17
197:15 199:1,19
199:21,24 200:3
fenwick 4:14 7:5
9:2,5
fenwick.com 4:22
field 45:9 47:11
file 99:13,23
100:21 101:4
102:2,5
files 45:4
fill 143:2,5
final 45:24,24,25
46:5 63:18,25
67:20,22 68:22
69:2,14 168:1
181:25
finalize 149:12
financially 8:22
202:16
find 69:6,18 70:11
158:15
findings 104:21
fine 200:15
finish 11:19,23,24
finished 12:1
fire 1:6 2:6 3:3
7:24 9:15,18
29:25 30:1 44:8,9
62:3 106:15,16,17
107:20 124:6,7,19
124:20 125:10,10
128:21 129:16

160:19 168:1
first 25:8 74:11
88:1 93:4,9 99:10
132:25 146:19,22
160:22 167:25
170:2 171:25
175:11 177:22
178:4 180:20,23
182:4 186:17,19
187:5
five 156:15 187:8
fix 91:21
fixed 92:2
flexibility 150:3,9
flip 171:25 176:22
177:13 178:14
186:12
floor 3:8,17 4:19
flow 125:13
focus 110:1
follow 47:14 48:11
112:15 113:9
118:24 160:21
184:20
followed 19:24
following 26:10
27:4 68:6 116:3
follows 8:6
followup 199:2
foregoing 201:11
202:4,6,10,12
form 16:1,5 21:14
22:14 24:6 26:5
26:14,20 27:1,13
28:19 30:18,19
31:9,16,24 32:3,9
34:6 35:3 36:7
38:23 42:3,13,20
43:1,18 44:3,11
46:7 47:17 48:9
48:10,16 49:19,25

51:9,22 52:1,10
53:11 55:2,8,21
56:4,10 57:3,10,15
58:10,19 59:8,14
59:22 60:11,17
61:4 62:9 63:17
64:16 65:13 66:9
69:22 71:10 73:19
74:23 84:10 90:1
90:8 91:15,24
94:24 95:7 100:4
100:15 101:6,21
102:2 114:10,24
115:19 116:7
117:8,17 119:25
124:25 125:15
126:1,23 127:22
132:5 144:14
145:8 147:24
154:12 191:9
192:13
format 17:20
106:11 113:7,19
123:4
formatting 170:4
forms 143:2,5,8
forth 149:7 170:5
175:18 202:5
forward 44:22
67:24 68:4 69:3
176:22
forwarded 116:11
found 14:2 17:11
foundation 55:16
61:3,13 73:12
123:24 137:2,9,16
138:7 143:13,19
159:16
four 15:1,7 18:3
29:2,4 103:3
169:20 170:25

177:12 187:8
fourth 169:25
francisco 4:20
free 117:23,25
121:9,14 122:5,22
131:25 132:2
173:12,17 174:16
174:21,22 178:23
179:6 188:13
189:2
freely 188:19
front 32:24 33:13
33:17 64:21
109:10 153:20
full 38:21 53:16,19
55:18 56:1,8
64:20 86:23,25
175:11
fully 70:5 184:1
functionally 15:22
furnish 10:14,17
188:19
furnishes 92:4
further 14:25 15:3
15:8,9 66:16
88:13 160:4
182:15 185:21
197:18 202:12,16
future 88:4
g
g 3:5 116:23
gaining 92:10
game 22:9
general 5:7,18
7:18,22 9:10
19:10 23:17,19
27:9,10 35:19
107:18 118:11,15
119:16 120:23
140:19 141:7,11
143:23 151:15
Page 14

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[general - implementation]
170:7
general's 9:7
generally 30:13
33:7 152:6 162:2
184:14
give 12:11,21
32:15,25 123:1
200:4
given 157:5,17
185:4 202:11
giving 10:21
go 10:20 11:24
14:7 66:24 70:19
82:22 83:22 98:24
99:1 119:1 136:5
142:22 144:5,9,21
145:10 155:11
160:10 163:10
164:6 175:3
181:19 185:24
186:1
goes 36:1,4,11
41:17 47:2 161:22
169:7
going 10:20 11:13
63:2 74:17 140:11
141:13,19 143:9
143:16,23 145:10
177:6
good 8:8 9:23,24
10:2 149:8
govern 47:24
governed 184:2
185:2
governing 48:7
182:17 183:12
185:6
government 14:4
18:21 19:25 39:15
42:15 88:18 89:5
141:10 170:7

197:10
governmental
140:18
governments
197:4
governor 16:3,14
16:18,25 17:6,8
grammatical
114:6
grand 3:16
grant 109:19
grants 110:2
graphic 139:21
great 98:17 165:17
175:9
green 198:7
groups 25:21
guess 26:21 27:7
41:3 58:15
guide 64:9
h
h 123:10 131:1
half 20:6
hand 141:19
handed 24:12
34:20 57:24
107:13 141:23
150:22
handles 159:13
happen 125:19,20
126:17,21 127:4
164:10
happened 189:23
happens 30:10,12
hcd 66:19 67:11
67:18,21,23 68:10
68:13,17 159:8
hcd's 67:4
head 48:5 56:19
108:20 111:5
114:21 121:16,25

heading 37:14
40:7 74:7 88:13
123:10 138:22,22
health 14:2 17:11
29:19 75:21
129:25 130:11
166:9,14,19,25
167:8
hear 30:11 105:12
heard 49:8,13,18
82:2 94:20
hearing 18:13
hearings 14:19
18:10
heating 1:8 2:8
held 20:25 172:23
help 113:12 114:2
190:4
helped 189:25
helpful 66:6
helps 176:7
hereinafter 110:5
110:16
hereto 175:18,20
201:14
high 166:1 169:9
highlight 116:25
history 144:20
hold 58:11 176:11
195:9 198:13,19
holds 198:10
honestly 150:1
hospital 130:3
182:20 183:4,25
hospitals 42:11
182:10 183:8,10
183:14 184:12
host 37:1,4,5,9,17
hosted 39:6
housing 66:22
75:25 76:9 128:4

128:7
https 35:14
huge 154:23
huh 15:12,15
18:18 31:6 37:16
40:19 46:23 47:22
48:23 56:15 67:2
88:19,21 89:12
91:9 93:16 102:18
115:17 123:8
131:2 132:16
139:17 140:15
151:14 167:18
180:22 199:18
hunter 7:16
132:21
i
iapmo 133:23
134:9,10,11,15
152:9
icc 93:13,25 95:10
95:14,19 96:1,10
96:21 97:1,4,7,12
97:15,20,23 98:4,6
98:14,19 133:3
152:9 181:2,12
idea 101:18
identification
34:21 57:25 85:13
132:14 141:24
150:23
identified 136:2,6
identifies 40:18
62:1 151:9
identify 8:25
121:18
impaired 137:6,23
180:8 190:14
implementation
21:13
Page 15

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[implemented - know]
implemented
182:16 183:6
importance 131:5
important 131:7
148:13 149:2
166:9
include 86:23 87:7
122:11 128:3
173:14
included 86:20
includes 24:22
88:17 155:1
including 81:6
89:19 158:19
179:24
incomplete 63:11
110:14
inconsequential
113:4,16,20,24
114:8
inconsistent
156:21
incorporate 30:23
31:2,7,12 164:20
167:7 172:6
incorporated 26:2
106:7 145:6
incorporates
166:22
incorporation
30:17 31:5 49:9
49:14,18,23 50:7
50:11,12,18,19
51:2,5
incredibly 164:12
independent 19:12
index 6:1
indicate 159:11
indicates 62:22,24
170:12 183:4

indicating 33:8
individual 151:18
individuals 136:25
137:7,13,23 180:1
180:8
industry 17:3
26:12,19,24 27:11
163:21
inferior 166:13
info 88:5
information 25:17
34:11,15 64:13
66:3,5 86:16 88:8
88:17 102:8,11,15
114:23 116:11
143:22 146:10,11
146:12,14 193:21
196:3
informed 91:10
initial 17:16 18:16
48:2
initialed 201:13
ink 201:13
installation 125:10
installations 65:20
instance 36:20
65:4 71:18 94:13
100:3 128:3 190:2
instances 32:13,17
94:3,5
instruct 148:9
intend 66:3
intensive 164:12
interacted 26:12
26:17
interactions 15:16
27:17,21
interest 78:2 79:7
79:11,18,22 80:2
80:14 81:4,19
105:8,14,16

interested 8:23
139:4 195:15
202:17
interface 15:13
17:1
internal 87:7
internally 102:6
international 1:5
2:5 4:4 38:8,11
93:24 134:12
162:25 163:8,13
190:3,7
internet 25:17
33:5,7,9,12
interpret 65:20
66:1
interpreting 66:7
intervening 35:9
138:22 139:20,22
invited 196:8
involved 10:5
78:21 163:16
169:11 171:5
involvement 10:8
21:22 23:12 26:7
78:10,15,19
issue 35:6 86:4
91:21 92:20
124:12 190:23
issues 25:25 90:25
91:10 124:6,7,10
124:19,20 125:10
138:5,13 180:16
181:16
item 109:12 135:7
177:22,25 186:17
186:17
j
j 4:6
january 23:6 36:2
139:19

jerry 5:8 9:6
jerry.yen 5:13
job 1:24
john 5:21 8:20
judgment 166:24
167:6
july 7:4 35:25
131:4,18 132:4
135:21 139:16
170:8
jurisdiction 105:5
121:20 183:12
185:1 188:24
jurisdiction's
184:10,15 185:15
jurisdictions
52:24 117:25
121:7,14 122:4,6
122:11,14 127:25
128:6,8 175:5
182:17,23 183:7
184:17 188:11,14
188:16,19 195:15
justice 5:6
k
k 134:21,21,24
136:17
katrina 146:8,19
147:17
keep 52:11 81:8
88:5 101:12,19
171:23
kevin 4:6 9:19
kevin.fee 4:11
kind 108:1 128:17
185:8 195:8 196:3
kinds 40:16,21
knew 152:18
177:17
know 11:9 12:6,10
17:11 25:19 26:17
Page 16

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[know - licensee]
26:21 37:4 43:19
49:12 50:5,15,25
51:12 53:13,16,16
53:18 54:1,7,13,23
54:24 55:18 56:1
56:7,12,14,22,24
56:25 57:1,5,6,8
57:11,13,18,20
58:17 60:3,12,14
60:18,19 61:6
62:17 68:5 69:5,8
69:20,25 70:21
71:12 72:2,20
73:8,13,15,16,20
73:22 74:2,4 75:1
75:10,15,21 76:12
76:23 77:17 82:13
82:17 86:11,14,16
87:9 90:2,9,15,19
90:24 92:1,21
94:19 95:8,17,18
95:25 96:16,17,19
96:23 97:6,9,14,17
97:22 98:1 100:18
100:19 101:12,16
103:10 107:2
108:7,20,21 109:6
109:10 111:5
112:25 114:2,5,19
114:21 119:21
121:11,15 122:3
122:23,24,25
123:3 126:7
127:10 128:6,13
128:17,20 129:15
129:18,18,20,24
130:4,6,9,10,14,15
130:18,19 131:17
131:21,24,25
132:2,7 134:6,8
135:7 136:8,16,21

136:22,23 137:3,5
137:10,12,17
138:14,17 140:24
141:4,5,8,9,12
142:2,5,15,17
143:7,8 144:4
146:16 147:2,13
148:3,6 149:4
150:6,12,24
151:21,23,25
152:20,23,24
157:21 158:5,6
159:22,25 160:3,8
160:8 162:3,6
164:2,9,15 171:8
172:14 173:23,24
187:2 188:23
189:8,22 190:6,7
190:10 192:14,17
192:20,21 193:3,5
194:10 195:17
197:16 198:16
knowledge 25:12
25:15,16 38:21
39:18,25 52:4,6,16
54:2 63:22 69:11
90:23 113:14,18
121:7 126:20
138:3 144:11,18
145:5 196:21
known 14:5,13
19:4 43:10
l
lack 61:2,12
123:23 137:8,13
137:15 138:1,6
143:12,18 180:12
lacked 190:18
lacks 55:15 73:11
137:1 159:15

laid 47:4
lands 130:16
language 17:19
41:19 46:5 61:21
103:25 110:1,7,9
110:17 113:8,11
113:13 115:8,13
115:14,16,18
116:6,25 117:3
131:5 135:1
140:17,20,21
181:22 183:18
186:14,16 187:1
latest 22:21
law 3:6,15 4:7,17
5:9,16 10:24 14:2
14:10 16:16 17:10
26:2 28:16 36:6
40:16 44:18 45:6
51:6 52:23 89:7
89:18,21,23
104:12 111:16
117:24 121:17,22
122:1 131:13
165:20 175:6
177:17 178:12
185:16
law's 45:21
lawsuit 25:14 58:9
152:14 153:13
lawsuits 10:5,9
lawyers 148:16
153:15
lay 10:19
lays 47:14
leading 32:21 38:5
39:10 47:16 50:14
139:15,18
learn 196:18
leased 118:13,19

leaving 154:25
155:3
leda 3:14
left 110:14
legal 5:19 9:10
50:22 51:11 77:15
88:24 103:9 107:1
109:2,21 110:11
111:2,10,22
112:13,24 126:12
126:24 127:8
131:14 147:10
189:7,14
legend 62:18,22
legislated 115:14
legislation 105:3
legislature 41:11
letter 7:4 24:19,22
25:10 84:17
level 112:7 161:24
162:1,7,13 163:11
169:9
lewis 4:5 9:19
libraries 117:24
135:24 136:1,10
136:11,11,12
175:6,6,17,20
176:1,2 177:1,4,7
186:21
library 121:22
122:1 176:17
177:17 178:6,9,12
178:16,19
license 109:19
127:10
licensed 17:3
110:6 115:9
118:23 119:3,10
119:12
licensee 117:1

Page 17
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[life - meetings]
life 29:25
light 59:11
likewise 11:22
limit 12:17
line 65:5 135:18
136:17 187:5
lines 170:2 187:7
193:7
link 52:21 54:19
54:25 55:6,12
58:5 61:10 67:19
71:3,4,15 72:3
73:3 91:18,22
92:1,7 100:11,13
101:23 102:20
134:3 173:15
linked 33:15 39:6
133:3 135:14
links 54:22 60:21
60:25 61:6 72:8
89:21 123:6 133:6
179:17
list 74:17 75:17
135:20 176:17
177:1,22,23 178:1
178:5
listed 38:13 67:6
75:4 135:24
175:17,20 176:14
187:22
lists 38:17 186:21
little 82:19 161:5
162:18 168:7
173:10 184:23
live 10:17
llp 3:4,13 4:5,14
7:5
load 126:16
local 49:15 52:23
117:23,24 121:7
121:13,19 122:4

122:10,11,14,14
122:17,21 123:1
127:25 128:6,8,9
128:11 140:18
141:9 170:6
174:25 175:4
182:17,21,22
183:7,12 184:10
184:15,17 185:14
188:11,13,19
195:14
located 8:18
long 20:4 46:12
99:19 100:19
110:21 144:1
149:11 161:18
longer 82:19
look 35:11 65:18
69:6,20 83:8
86:18 154:23
155:5,7,21 156:16
156:22 157:21
168:6 169:24
170:2 172:4,17,18
175:9,10 176:5
177:21 178:4,11
180:18 185:5,13
looked 186:13
looking 19:2 44:25
61:7 131:3 156:25
171:24 187:3
looks 46:8 85:23
139:14,15 155:16
162:20 169:25
178:15
los 3:18
lunch 99:2 102:17
103:13

m
macdonell 5:21
8:20
machine 202:8
maeda 7:12 85:25
86:2 93:6
magazine 193:19
mail 193:18
maintain 122:1
maintains 121:23
makeup 47:3
making 167:6
179:25 180:7,11
180:15
malamud 88:5
152:24 153:10
mall 2:21 8:18
manager 146:5
151:19
mandate 131:14
march 7:11 94:17
margin 62:23
mark 24:8 33:1
34:17 57:21 83:4
107:9 141:19
marked 24:10,13
33:3 34:18,21
37:24 57:22,25
74:6 83:6 85:10
85:12 107:11
132:9,11,13
141:21,23 150:19
150:20,22
marnell 151:19,21
151:23
marshal 30:1
106:16,17 128:21
129:16
marvelli 1:17 2:19
6:3 7:5,6 8:4,14
9:11 10:1,2 24:13

34:4 49:8 57:24
81:18 83:9 145:20
160:18 201:10,22
material 45:19
62:2 155:24
materials 1:4 2:4
4:4 8:16 15:18
17:14,15 20:2
21:24 199:6,13
matrix 64:6,8
matter 8:15 13:8
33:14 36:18
194:13
matters 10:15
maximum 108:18
mcgeorge 178:11
mean 11:13 12:1
16:22 24:2 26:17
26:22 29:8 31:1,3
32:19 37:4,5
49:11 93:18 95:17
102:7 108:7,25
120:12 123:3,17
124:17,19 128:9
150:8 155:12,15
171:8
meaning 50:13,18
means 49:24 67:15
110:18 124:24
182:20
meant 182:8
mechanical
124:14 133:23
134:13,17
meet 29:24 127:5
meeting 18:6
19:24 21:24 45:14
46:2
meetings 14:20
20:1,3,19

Page 18
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[meets - national]
meets 46:12
member 47:3 94:6
132:18 146:4
members 47:7
48:20 92:24 95:3
118:16
merit 17:25 20:1
met 30:3,7,8,10,12
46:18 95:5 104:10
104:13 131:18
160:23 167:3
method 134:25
135:3,6,10,14,16
173:19,20
methods 167:7
mia 1:17 2:19 6:3
7:4 8:4,14 9:10
10:1 201:10,22
michael 7:11 86:5
87:21
mike 85:25 93:6
miller 3:5 6:8,10
9:13,13 16:1,5,10
19:16 21:14 22:14
23:21 24:6,25
26:14 28:19 30:19
31:9 32:21 33:4,7
33:13,18 34:1
35:3 38:5 39:7,10
42:3,13,20 43:1,18
44:3 46:7 47:16
48:9 49:19 50:14
50:21 51:10 52:10
53:12 54:5 55:15
55:22 56:5,11
57:15 59:8 61:2
61:12 62:9 63:10
63:17 64:17 65:7
65:23 66:9 71:6
72:12,18 73:5,11
74:24 76:21 77:14

80:4,17,21,24 81:8
81:14,20 90:8
91:4,13 92:12
98:7,22 100:15,24
101:6,21 103:8
106:25 110:13,20
111:2,9 112:21
114:10,24 115:19
116:7 117:8,17
118:9,21 119:6,18
119:25 120:9,14
121:2 123:16,23
124:25 125:15
126:1,12,24 127:7
127:22 137:1,8,15
138:6,15 139:11
141:13,16 143:12
143:18 144:14
145:8 146:2
147:24 152:3,16
153:23 154:13,19
155:20 156:4,7,18
157:4,15 158:3,12
158:21 159:15
160:17,19 161:12
162:11,17 163:2
163:14,19,24
164:11,17,25
165:9,15,23 166:6
167:4,14 168:22
169:15 170:16
171:10,20 172:16
173:2,9 174:14,19
175:2 179:3,9,15
180:5 183:2,15,24
184:8,24 185:10
185:20 188:21
189:6,12,14 191:9
191:14 192:6,13
193:2 194:8,15
197:1,6,13,20,24

198:17,23 199:20
199:25
minimum 135:19
166:3
minor 113:4,15,20
113:24 114:3,7
minute 49:1
161:13 200:5
minutes 48:24
145:11 156:15
mischaracterizes
61:4 72:5 92:13
94:11 104:2
112:22 120:10
122:7 138:15
152:4 158:13
161:11 188:22
misspoke 129:2
misstates 54:6
64:17 74:24
mistake 101:1
mix 47:10
mobility 137:6,23
180:8 190:14
model 28:12,15
29:2 31:4,20 37:8
37:19 40:15 41:6
41:8,12,18,22,25
42:10,18 44:19
52:22 62:20,25
71:23 77:6 103:25
106:7 111:11,18
111:20 112:7
114:12 115:21
116:17,18 134:1
134:16 144:12,21
145:1 150:18
152:1,6 162:7
182:6 183:22,23
184:2 189:24
190:1 197:5,11

modelled 150:14
modified 33:10
149:6
moment 30:2 83:8
85:13 145:21
153:18 164:3
monday 1:19 2:23
8:1
money 173:18
monitor 127:20
monitoring 127:16
month 149:14,15
monthly 193:19
months 149:16,18
149:24
morgan 4:5 9:19
morganlewis.com
4:11
morning 8:8 9:23
9:24 10:2
move 81:25,25
86:1 173:10
mto.com 3:11,20
multiple 15:25
munger 3:4,13
9:14,17
n
n.w. 3:7
name 9:25 15:21
53:16,19 124:3
127:13 147:14
151:18 160:18
202:20
named 44:10 58:8
58:9
names 14:8
national 1:6 2:6
3:3 7:24 9:15,17
41:8,12,18,22,24
42:10,18 43:10,13
43:15,22,25 44:8,9
Page 19

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[national - nfpa]
44:21 51:7 61:23
62:3 79:4 106:6
107:20 160:19
162:7,8,13,14
163:11 164:4,21
165:18,21 168:1,3
168:9,17 171:23
172:7,20 182:5
184:2 191:1,6
192:3,25 196:2,5
196:19
nature 15:16 96:7
152:11,12 156:11
ncb 7:17 142:2,5
142:10
near 178:11
nearman 7:12
85:25 86:5 87:22
93:6
nec 62:2 79:3
81:21 106:24
110:4,5 164:7
166:23,24 167:5,7
168:4 172:6,8,11
172:24 173:3,6,23
177:2 195:6
necessary 45:1,22
82:11
need 11:5,25 12:9
15:21 29:13 52:24
58:12,15 86:16
102:9 117:11,15
118:1,7 143:16
155:7 200:3,11
needed 40:25
143:10
needs 41:9 73:8
117:14,21 119:4
negotiate 111:7
negotiating 108:3

negotiation 107:24
108:7 149:7
negotiations 108:5
194:1,24
neither 202:16
nercessian 4:15
6:7,9,11 9:1,1,22
16:11,12 19:17
21:15,16 22:15
23:23 24:7,11
25:2,4 26:6,15,23
27:2,16 28:20
30:20 31:11,17
32:1,6,16,22 33:5
33:11,15,23 34:3,8
34:19 35:5 36:9
38:7,25 39:5,8,17
39:22,25 40:3,5
42:5,14,23 43:3,24
44:5,13 46:15
47:18 48:13,21
49:7,21 50:3,16
51:1,13,23 52:3,15
52:18 53:2,14
54:8 55:4,10,17,25
56:6,13,21 57:7,12
57:17,23 58:16,23
59:10,16,24 60:13
60:20 61:8,16
62:10,11,21 63:5,8
63:12,20 64:23
65:9,17 66:2,13
67:13,14 69:9
70:2,16,22 71:8,14
71:24 72:9,15,21
73:7,14,21 75:5,12
76:14,24 77:18
80:8,19 81:2,11,17
81:22,24 82:10,22
83:4,7 84:15 85:4
85:11 86:15 87:16

87:17 89:3 90:3
90:11,16 91:7,19
92:3,15 94:15
95:1,9,22 96:6,24
97:10,18 98:2,10
98:23 99:21 100:6
100:17 101:2,11
101:17,25 103:12
103:21 104:6
107:3,12 108:17
109:7,25 110:15
110:23 111:6,13
112:1,9,17 113:1
114:14 115:2,20
116:15,22 117:13
117:19 118:4,5,17
119:2,8,22 120:2
120:19 121:6,12
122:9 123:19
124:2 125:2,18
126:4,19 127:3,12
128:2 132:8,12
133:19 137:4,11
137:18 138:10,18
139:13 141:15,18
141:22 142:16,21
143:15,21 144:17
144:23 145:12,19
146:6 147:7 148:2
148:21 149:10,21
150:2,7,13,21
151:8 152:13,19
153:17 154:2,4,17
154:24 155:14,25
156:5,13,24
157:10,23 158:7
158:17 159:2,19
161:10 162:4,15
162:22 163:5,18
163:23 164:8,14
164:22 165:7,13

165:19 166:2
167:1,10 168:19
169:14 170:14
171:7,19 172:13
172:25 173:7,21
173:22 174:13,18
175:1 178:25
179:8,13 180:2
182:24 183:9,20
184:5,22 185:7,18
185:23 186:1,9
188:25 189:10,17
191:12,19 192:9
192:16,22 193:4
194:12,18 195:18
195:25 196:9,15
196:20 197:3,9,17
197:22 198:15,21
199:2,5 200:10
new 35:6 44:24
103:4
newsletter 194:23
nfpa 43:7,8,10
44:6,7 53:6,9 58:8
58:20 59:5,6,18,21
60:5,9,16,23 61:10
61:18 62:7,14
63:6 72:16,23
73:1 77:8,22
81:12 82:6,15
96:12 101:7
107:20 109:20
110:2,4 111:19
112:3,11,19 113:5
113:14 114:20
115:13,23 116:25
117:5,16 131:22
133:13,22 134:7
134:24 135:3,10
135:18 136:18,21
136:23 137:5,12
Page 20

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[nfpa - objection]
140:16,19 141:1,5
141:9 150:17
151:10,25 167:16
168:2,8,9,16,24
169:3 170:3,12,18
170:21,24 171:4
171:12,16 172:19
172:20,23 175:13
175:25 176:17,18
176:18 181:14
186:14 187:12,17
187:25 189:4
191:4 192:1,10
193:10,17,19,21
193:25 194:5,14
194:20,25 195:9
195:19 196:3
198:10
nfpa's 82:2,4
nfpa.org 58:6,17
58:25 59:3 100:14
nine 29:13,15,21
46:13,16 47:7
103:23 104:5,16
104:18 105:1,13
105:21 106:21
166:18 167:2
nodding 56:19
non 115:14
noncompetitive
142:8,10,13,22
143:17,24 144:5
nonexclusive
110:2
nonregulatory
113:25
nonresidential
198:9
nontransferrable
110:3

noon 103:18
nope 34:7
notary 8:22
notation 33:16
62:23 159:10
notations 153:21
154:10,25 155:3
155:17 157:1,12
158:1,9
note 35:11 115:15
noted 25:3 64:3
81:23 201:13
notice 18:5 45:21
195:14
noticed 45:20
notices 19:25
notify 91:17
november 99:11
number 17:12
31:19 34:15 74:14
82:3 83:18 93:11
145:2 179:5
numbered 62:17
176:6
numbering 114:6
nw 4:8
o
oath 8:5 10:22
object 16:8 31:16
33:18,25 34:1
48:10 52:10 57:15
58:10 61:4 62:9
63:2,9 64:19
65:13,13 84:11
141:13
objecting 16:6
objection 16:1,5
19:16 21:14 22:14
23:21 24:6,25
25:2 26:5,14,20
27:1,13 28:19

30:18,19 31:9,24
32:3,9,21 34:6
35:3 36:7 38:5,23
39:2,7,10 42:3,13
42:20 43:1,18
44:3,11 46:7
47:16,17 48:9,16
49:19,25 50:14,21
51:9,10,22 52:1
53:11,12 54:5
55:2,8,14,15,21,22
56:4,5,10,11 57:3
57:10,14 58:19,21
59:8,14,22 60:11
60:17 61:2,12
62:8,15 63:10,17
64:16,17 65:7,22
65:23 66:9 67:12
69:7,22 70:13,20
71:6,10,21 72:5,12
72:18 73:5,11,19
74:23,24 75:9
76:13,21 77:14
80:4,17 81:9,13,23
82:2,8 84:10
86:10 88:24 90:1
90:8,14 91:3,13,15
91:24 92:12 94:9
94:24 95:7,20
96:2,22 97:8,16,25
98:7,22 99:18
100:4,15,24 101:6
101:15,21 103:8
103:11 104:2
106:25 109:2,21
110:11,13,19,20
111:1,9,22 112:4
112:13,21,23
114:10,24 115:19
116:7,19 117:8,17
118:3,9,21 119:6

119:18,25 120:9
121:2,10 122:7
123:16,23 124:25
125:15,25 126:1
126:11,13,22
127:7,22 132:5
133:17 137:1,8,15
138:6 139:11
141:17 142:14,19
143:12,18 144:14
144:15,19 145:7,8
146:2 147:24
149:3,19,25 150:5
150:11 151:5
152:3,16 153:23
154:12,13,19
155:20 156:4,18
157:4,15 158:4,12
158:21 159:15
161:10 162:4,15
162:22 163:5,18
163:23 164:8,14
164:22 165:7,13
165:19 166:2
167:1,10 168:19
169:14 170:14
171:7,19 172:13
172:25 173:7,21
174:13,18 175:1
178:25 179:8,13
180:2 182:24
183:9,20 184:5,22
185:7,18 188:21
189:5,6,12,13
191:9,14 192:6,13
192:19 193:2
194:8,15 195:11
195:23 196:6,12
196:17 197:2,6,13
198:15,21

Page 21
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[obtain - paragraph]
obtain 73:17 101:4
obviously 33:20
occupancies 41:17
42:1,17,24 182:1,5
182:15 198:9
occupant 126:16
occur 131:11
occurrence 189:22
occurs 139:9,12,19
139:22
october 84:7 99:11
offer 89:1 195:13
198:2,4,6
offers 56:25 57:2
office 5:7 9:7
15:17 24:18 42:6
45:20 53:1 57:1
84:5 86:4,19 89:7
89:17,21,23
128:20 129:15,24
145:24 165:1,5,11
165:24 182:9
195:17
official 88:14 89:8
officials 16:19,20
134:13
oh 15:7,11 20:25
94:16 120:14
129:2 140:11
okay 8:12 12:7
13:24 15:11 17:5
17:13,18 18:4
19:3 22:11,17
25:2 28:22 29:3,5
32:11 33:1 34:14
38:16 40:4,24
41:2 43:20 44:18
47:12 48:24,25
49:1,5 52:17,19
54:9 56:18 58:14
63:9 70:8 74:10

80:12,21 82:18
83:21 85:2 88:3
91:8 98:14 100:5
100:7 103:14,15
109:18 134:23
140:8,11 145:14
145:17 148:17
154:2 155:10
160:7,14 162:18
164:3 167:18
175:4 176:5,11,11
176:13 177:15
183:16 185:12
186:3,6,20 191:23
191:25 193:13
197:19,22 198:25
ola 89:6
olson 3:4,13 9:14
9:17
omit 115:18
ones 108:11
online 91:17,18
92:6 96:12 117:22
119:1,17,24 120:3
120:8,25 121:4,5,5
133:1,13,16,24,25
152:22 173:19,23
174:1,11,15
open 18:4
operator 8:12 49:1
49:5 82:24 83:1
103:15,19 145:15
145:17 160:11,14
186:3,6 199:22
200:12
opinion 24:22 25:5
25:7,9
opportunity 18:7
option 47:1
order 33:2 34:17
57:21 83:5 93:14

95:11 104:11
107:9 111:11
132:10 133:7
140:12 141:20
150:19 181:3
ordinances 49:15
182:16 183:6
organization
76:25 79:6,11
136:6 198:19
organizations 26:3
27:18,22 77:3,12
80:1,13 81:4,19
196:23 198:13
oriented 28:3
161:7,15
original 202:13
originate 146:15
originated 146:18
146:18
origins 40:11
oshpd 183:13
184:13
outline 139:5
output 22:12
outreach 198:2
outside 23:21
50:22 142:8,13
152:17 153:6
197:1,7,14
outstanding 74:13
overall 105:23
overlap 29:23
104:23
oversee 19:23
ow 166:15
owner 168:8
172:19
owns 58:18 168:2

p
p.m. 2:22 8:2
package 30:14
46:3,14
page 6:6 7:3 34:24
34:24 35:1,12
37:13,24 38:13,17
40:6,25 61:10,20
61:21 62:16 64:1
64:3,3,5 74:6 82:4
85:18 87:14 93:4
93:13 95:11
107:21 109:10,16
114:25 115:3,16
116:24 133:3
134:21 138:21
140:10 151:12,13
153:20,21 154:1,6
154:10,15 155:1,4
155:18 156:22
157:12 158:9
159:5 167:25
169:25 171:25
172:4 175:10,22
176:15,25 177:7
178:4,8,14 181:2
181:21 182:1,18
186:12
pages 1:25 39:6
58:25 62:17 63:4
114:1,1 155:21
156:8 176:22
177:8,12
paid 45:10
pam 85:25 86:1
93:6
pamela 7:12
panic 106:16
paper 114:4,4
paragraph 74:11
74:15 93:9,15
Page 22

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[paragraph - premium]
99:10 113:2
167:25 168:7
170:1,2 172:5,18
172:19 175:11
181:25 186:18,19
187:5
paragraphs
168:16
parameters 105:3
part 25:8 28:16
31:4 32:13 33:22
33:24 34:11 36:17
36:20,23 43:4
47:5,12,19 48:15
70:10 85:9 89:13
93:17,18,20
105:19 106:3,8
115:12 121:17
131:12 134:15
143:3,10 154:7
158:18 167:5
180:25 181:6
182:4,13 183:3
189:19 190:12
participate 18:14
45:11 108:5 164:1
197:5,11
participation
163:21
particular 25:18
80:9 148:12 149:1
149:9 150:4
167:16
parties 139:4
parts 32:18 35:4
36:14 37:1,9
38:11,17 166:23
167:7
party 8:21 202:18
pass 132:9

passed 85:12
132:13
pause 16:7 49:1
pay 93:13 94:7,23
95:5 181:2
paying 189:4
payment 55:20
56:3,9 190:8
pays 197:10
pdf 33:11,15 99:13
99:23 100:21
101:4 102:2
pederson 1:22
2:23 202:25
penalty 201:11
pending 12:11
48:25 145:13
pennsylvania 4:8
people 17:20 92:5
94:22 95:4 173:11
195:15
performance
124:14
performed 20:9
performing
123:14
period 45:20
139:20,22,23
periodical 193:18
periods 14:20
perjury 201:11
permission 61:23
62:2 73:17 189:3
person 32:7 68:1,5
69:5,18 70:11,19
73:8 94:7 95:18
95:25 96:18,20
132:22 136:6
189:24,25 190:4,8
190:18,22

person's 95:15
personally 120:6
120:11,16 121:19
persons 90:25
91:11 147:12
pertain 36:17
pertains 202:12
petitions 47:25
phase 20:19
phone 93:10,11
180:24
piece 114:4
place 22:25 100:21
202:5
placed 139:10
places 72:11 95:15
178:22 179:5
plaintiff 3:3 4:3
44:10 58:9
plaintiffs 1:10
2:10 25:13 58:9
planning 129:25
play 16:13 19:12
19:15,18 21:11,18
22:1 127:16 146:9
played 146:25
plays 128:14
please 8:25 9:25
11:9,19,23 35:13
44:17 83:4,8 88:5
plumbing 133:23
134:12,18
point 11:8 25:9,23
29:13,15 46:13,16
90:13,17,21
103:23 104:5,16
104:18 105:1,13
105:21 106:21
133:7 156:1
166:18 167:2

pointing 113:10
points 37:7,19
90:9 96:10
poor 166:13
populations
179:23
portion 65:11 66:7
110:4 158:19
170:17
portions 61:22
62:1,6,13 65:5
115:8 133:1
position 23:15
positions 20:25
possible 55:11
68:9,12,16,21,23
69:13,17 118:18
118:25 119:1
127:13 132:19
165:4,8,10
possibly 46:20
77:22 78:23
155:21
posted 100:10
113:5,18 114:17
posting 113:6
potentially 185:17
185:19
pra 84:1 85:2
86:12,13,19 99:7
152:25 153:5,7
pras 153:4
pre 44:25 47:25
139:6
preliminaries
10:19
preliminary 99:1
premium 93:13
94:7,23 95:6,11
181:2

Page 23
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[prep - publication]
prep 7:6
prepare 12:24
13:10
prepared 20:18
21:24
prescribe 147:22
prescribed 29:25
prescribes 125:14
125:24 126:10
present 5:15 67:22
presented 18:6
46:1
preserving 141:16
pretty 81:15 139:7
previous 10:8
23:10 44:23 67:25
68:4 69:3 70:15
70:18,24 121:13
122:8
previously 12:5
36:1 71:25 93:5
106:21 107:4
115:3 128:9
price 140:19,23
141:1,6,10
principal 145:21
print 34:23 58:2
59:20 60:4,6
95:18 97:3,6
136:24 137:20
170:5 174:5,21,24
179:24 180:1
181:1 189:21
190:9
printed 32:20 53:1
133:2
printing 82:16
89:8 114:13
170:13
prior 84:2 104:13
131:11 142:7

151:1 202:7
privileges 120:8
121:1
probably 124:17
197:21
problem 184:25
problems 92:19
procedures 14:3
18:22 45:5 47:23
proceedings 202:4
202:6,8,14
process 13:22,25
13:25 14:5,16,17
19:13,19,24 22:8
22:12 47:15 63:21
75:7 78:24 102:10
116:9 142:3,6,12
142:17,23 143:3,9
143:11,17,24
144:6,9 161:21
162:3,10,19,20,25
163:4,7,10,16,21
164:1,13 169:6
196:22 198:7
199:11,12
processes 21:11,19
22:1,6,24 23:3
48:7
procurement 7:22
151:16
produce 87:4
produced 86:8
87:11
production 85:9
101:9
products 124:21
professional
118:23 119:3,13
professionals
119:11

profit 57:9,19
program 66:17
prohibit 103:5
promote 106:15
promotion 21:3,5
21:8
prompted 87:23
property 110:6
115:9
propose 76:6
108:9,12 163:9
194:5
proposed 17:21
29:10 40:14 45:11
45:17 104:22
105:2,18 106:1,11
106:15 158:25
159:7 194:14
protect 166:19
protecting 167:8
protection 1:6 2:6
3:3 7:24 9:15,18
26:1 44:8,9 62:3
107:20 160:19
168:2
protects 166:24
provide 16:24
17:14 45:13 66:6
67:16 89:8,24
114:22 143:22
195:19 196:4
199:7
provided 12:5
13:1 15:19 18:11
25:1 71:3,4,9 85:3
85:6 86:20 87:1
92:7 101:23
102:20 106:8
113:6,15 114:2
135:20 176:17

providers 152:2
provides 56:8
89:18 93:11
199:14
providing 103:6
provision 68:21
69:1,6,14,19,21
103:25 109:19
159:9
provisions 68:5
70:10 115:10
public 8:22 14:19
14:20 18:5,6,7,13
20:1,3,19 37:25
38:22 45:13,14
46:2,9 48:18
51:18,19 52:8
54:14 55:18 56:1
56:8 63:15 64:1
75:20 78:24 84:6
86:9 87:2,5,11
92:24 94:6 103:7
105:8,14,16,22
106:6 130:11
132:2 140:19
141:7,11 163:25
166:19 167:8
170:7
public.resource
25:13 86:9 87:2,5
152:21 153:3
public.resource.
153:1
public.resource....
1:13 2:13
public.resource....
8:17 9:3,5
publication 21:12
61:22 62:6 63:16
65:2 89:9 131:11
131:18 139:6,9,23
Page 24

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[publications - receive]
publications 7:21
publicly 21:25
52:25
publish 34:12
53:21,24 63:22
73:18 110:6 117:2
131:4 144:25
170:5 192:10,17
published 35:24
114:3 131:8 133:2
133:12,22,23
163:12
publisher 22:19
22:19 37:8 38:18
39:4,6 51:19 52:9
53:3,5,6,17 54:3
54:10 57:9,19
70:19 71:23 72:2
72:11 77:6 91:17
92:1,4,8 93:22
94:7 102:24
116:12,12 134:13
173:16 191:15
publisher's 38:4
72:8 73:10 101:23
102:21 117:23
publishers 38:8
103:4 107:6
108:24 123:7
168:13
publishes 39:19
116:12 184:18
191:4,15 192:1
publishing 38:12
170:13
purchase 37:25
38:2 96:13 117:10
117:15 118:15,25
119:16,24 120:6
120:16,20,24

purchased 120:7
121:4
purchasing 54:15
96:17,19
purely 192:11
purports 94:10
purpose 18:23
196:16
pursuant 85:6
111:15
put 26:3 33:20
91:18 101:23
195:14
puts 45:19
q
quality 166:1,13
quantities 175:18
question 11:9,12
11:19,22,25 12:11
22:4,16 23:24
26:10,16 27:5,20
30:21 31:10 32:5
32:12 48:12,25
55:3,24 64:21,25
65:16 68:6,15
69:25 70:1,4
71:12 78:13 80:7
80:11,16 81:3,15
91:6 96:4 102:16
108:1 112:16
116:3 124:1 125:1
125:16 126:3,5
127:1 144:16
145:10,12 147:5
148:1,18 154:16
154:17 155:8
157:9 160:22
166:16 183:1
185:9 191:24
193:11 199:3

questioning 16:7
questions 10:21
12:21 56:17 64:20
82:1 83:19 99:1
138:19 160:4,21
168:13 173:25
179:21 180:4
182:11 185:21,22
186:10 197:18,21
197:25 199:1,21
quick 145:10,11
quite 108:16
143:25
quote 141:2
r
rachel 3:5 9:13
160:18
rachel.miller 3:11
raised 191:1
rationale 18:22
read 13:1 25:5,7,8
26:24 35:12 38:14
40:22,25 41:1,17
88:10 91:1,11
109:23 113:7,11
113:19 134:3
139:21,24 148:7
151:18 168:23
169:2 170:12,17
170:20,21,24
174:15,21 175:25
180:23 182:14
192:23 201:11
reader 62:12,19
64:9,14 65:10,20
66:1,6 67:9,16
reading 31:21
131:22 139:14
140:24
reads 37:14 40:9
64:5 66:19 85:18

88:14 93:10 99:10
113:3 138:22
151:11 154:6
157:12 159:10
168:1 173:1
175:12 182:4
realize 12:4
realized 100:9
really 149:6
184:19
realtime 8:9
reason 12:20
18:23 29:12 45:25
46:18 61:9 68:24
69:1 86:7 115:24
118:6 133:20
154:25 198:12,18
reasonable 105:22
reasons 17:16
18:17 45:24 46:10
63:19,25 67:21,23
68:22 69:15
recall 51:20 70:25
87:25 88:8,11
92:21,23,25 93:7
94:19 99:20 100:3
103:25 104:4
107:6,24 108:16
110:22 113:17
133:8,14,18 135:5
135:9 143:14,20
143:25 145:3
146:21 148:11
149:11,13,17,23
150:1 151:2
179:17 187:15,16
187:24 188:1
191:1 194:13,17
194:19,24 196:23
receive 14:18 74:1
96:18 101:8 120:7
Page 25

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[received - requests]
received 21:3 25:8
25:10 84:4 91:16
92:18 93:10 94:6
94:21 121:1
132:17,19 137:21
179:25 180:7,11
180:15,24
receives 73:23
111:20
receiving 78:22
84:3 95:4
recess 49:4 83:1
103:18 145:16
160:13 186:5
recognize 24:13
34:22 58:1 83:9
83:23 87:18 99:3
106:23 107:14
132:14 141:24
153:22 154:11,18
156:14 158:18,19
158:24
recognizes 154:16
recommend 30:5
recommendation
45:13,15
record 8:13 9:25
11:4 16:4 49:1,6
80:23 82:22,24
83:1 103:16,19
145:15,18 160:10
160:11,15 168:15
185:24 186:2,3,7
199:22 200:12,14
202:7,11
records 84:6 86:9
87:2,5,11
red 193:7
refer 31:22 32:8
61:20 64:2 66:21
74:5 93:4 102:21

reference 28:2,4,7
28:11,18,25 29:7
30:5,16,23,24 31:3
31:8,12,15,20,23
32:8,14,18 50:7,12
50:19 51:3,6,7
52:23 65:11,11
71:23 93:17
115:10 122:12
161:14,19 162:8
referenced 28:12
31:19 49:20 50:1
50:10
references 51:6
referencing 31:8
31:13
referred 17:13
18:16 28:4 41:15
46:17,21 93:25
110:5 115:1
188:11 189:24
referring 29:16
39:13,14,15 40:2
51:18 52:9 122:6
135:8 177:10
refers 181:6,12
reflect 64:13 67:3
reflected 59:12
60:25 61:10 88:8
reflects 65:4
109:19 166:24
refrigerating 1:8
2:8
regarding 88:14
135:10 147:4,9,18
153:2 186:11
195:20 199:7
regards 153:4
register 72:16,23
registry 45:21

regulate 166:13
regulated 184:15
regulations 14:12
14:14 22:17 89:9
89:10,14,16,19,25
90:5,7,13,21 154:7
158:25 175:16
185:6
regulatory 35:8
relate 23:3
related 8:21 21:11
21:19 22:2,6
175:16 190:23
198:4,11,13
relationship 19:8
relative 202:17
relevant 66:7 69:6
69:19 88:22
relies 161:16
165:17
rely 46:10 144:12
164:4 165:21
166:12,13
relying 167:5
remember 19:1
21:2 48:5 161:8
167:19 174:2
177:19 182:2,10
191:3
removed 100:10
renew 158:3
repeat 27:20 31:10
55:3,23 68:15
78:13 91:5 105:10
157:8 182:25
rephrase 11:10
16:11 21:15 27:6
28:21 48:14 56:7
62:10 67:13 70:7
91:8 108:2 116:4
118:4 122:10

185:11 191:22
replaced 100:13
report 94:17
reported 1:21
reporter 2:24 8:8
8:24 11:1 199:23
200:2,8 202:2
reporter's 11:16
reports 94:21 95:4
repository 175:6
represent 16:20
34:14 82:5 160:19
representation
12:16 13:12
representative
10:11 17:2 193:22
representatives
193:10,17 194:20
representing 9:2,5
9:7,10
represents 16:18
65:1 66:11,16
reprinted 32:14
32:18
reproduce 82:12
82:14
reproduced 61:22
62:2
request 84:1,6,9
85:6 86:9,13 87:2
87:5,11 99:7
137:21 152:25
189:18 190:11,16
190:17,21
requested 128:24
138:2 202:15
requesting 189:25
190:4,8,18,22
requests 153:5,7
179:25 180:6,10
180:14
Page 26

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[require - says]
require 88:23
124:23
required 16:17
28:13,14 40:16
48:3 94:7 165:20
175:25 176:19
177:3 190:8
requirement
125:7 176:21
183:18,22,23
requirements
16:15 65:19 125:3
127:6 170:4
requires 44:18
89:6 95:11 105:8
105:14
research 13:4,7
77:16,23
researched 75:21
resellers 136:18
reside 46:24
residences 42:2
residential 93:20
93:21,23 95:12,16
95:19 96:1,21,25
97:4,7,12,15,20,23
98:4,6,13,19
resource 164:12
respect 18:1 24:19
24:24 28:24 53:7
53:9 70:9 71:18
73:16,23 77:11
85:1 98:5,13,18
112:11 124:22,24
125:4 129:12
130:17 134:16
142:23 169:21
171:1 195:9,20
196:1,4 199:14
respond 45:23

responded 85:2
86:12,19
respondent 10:10
response 84:22
86:8 87:1,4,11
88:4 175:15
responses 11:5
responsibilities
19:21 21:7
responsible 14:15
38:12 169:20
170:12,18
responsive 85:3
rest 110:14 135:13
restate 80:10
191:24
restriction 95:17
restrictions 54:24
55:5,11 72:10
95:15
return 111:20
145:20 153:18
reveal 84:25
108:13
revenue 73:23
74:1
review 13:2 17:25
45:11 78:24 84:13
84:19 85:5,14
87:10 111:4,17
119:24 121:4
152:11 154:14
180:25 202:14
reviewed 20:18
21:23 26:19,22
27:11 45:4 108:8
115:4 119:13
147:10
reviewing 82:6
108:4 118:20
119:23 145:25

reviews 14:21 20:2
revision 22:25
revisions 110:5
right 17:17 19:1
20:4 24:12 34:4
34:20 39:24 40:6
52:13 56:22 62:18
63:13 69:10 70:7
75:19,24 81:25
98:18 99:3 103:12
107:4 120:15
134:24 135:17
139:25 140:12
155:22 157:7
166:20 167:9,22
168:18 169:17,22
170:9 172:24
174:8,16 176:20
177:4 178:24
181:7,10,12,23
182:23 183:7
184:3,10,21
185:16 186:10
192:12 195:8
199:19
rmr 1:23
role 16:13 17:5
19:12,15,18 20:5
20:20 21:4,10,10
21:17,18 22:1
26:11,19,25 53:9
86:1 108:2 127:16
128:14 145:25
146:9,25 171:22
roles 20:9,12
23:10 145:21
room 131:23
rose 3:14 9:16
rose.ehler 3:20
rough 139:5 200:6
200:9,10

roughly 20:7
roughs 200:2
round 186:13
188:10 190:25
row 66:24
rulemaking 14:5
14:18 15:17 17:13
17:15 19:13 20:18
22:24 45:2 46:1,3
47:15 48:2 63:21
rulemakings
14:22,24 15:19
rules 47:14 48:6
68:11,14,18 69:2
184:19 185:1,15
runs 58:18
s
s 4:13
sacramento 1:18
2:21 5:11 7:16 8:1
8:19 132:18
177:24 178:2,7,10
178:13,17,20,22
safety 14:2 17:11
29:20,25 66:16
106:16 123:12,21
124:9,12,20 130:3
166:9,14,19,25
167:8
sale 117:2,6 170:6
san 4:20
saw 145:24
saying 41:3 52:12
161:8 175:24
says 11:17 40:7
41:21,24 52:23
62:18 74:25 88:4
131:3 133:1,21
135:18 136:17
139:21 151:19
168:4,8,10,21
Page 27

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[says - sorry]
170:3 172:19
182:14
school 129:3,7,12
178:12
schools 42:8 182:9
scope 23:22 50:22
152:17 172:5
195:12,23 196:6
197:1,7,14 199:3
scratch 165:6,12
screen 82:5 181:1
screenshots 59:12
63:5 82:3,11,16
search 60:14
95:25 96:20 97:11
97:14
searchable 99:13
99:23 100:21
101:4,8 102:1
sec 82:23
second 37:13
58:11 61:20,21
66:24 99:9 140:9
159:4 167:24
172:4 177:25
178:9 182:13
183:3
section 17:12
37:24 38:2 88:18
88:22 89:6 102:12
109:13,15 113:2
113:11 115:7
116:10,17,23
123:9 131:1
134:20,24 136:17
140:14 158:23,25
159:3,6 168:7
sections 64:11
67:6 115:9
see 17:20,21 33:17
41:19 59:12 61:24

62:4 64:6,9 66:19
72:16,23 74:11,15
75:21 82:5 85:17
88:6,14,20 93:9,14
99:9,14 104:20
109:15 110:7,8
113:7,13 115:8,16
117:3 125:22
131:5 133:4 135:1
135:21 136:9,12
136:19,20 138:21
138:23 139:16
140:20,21 146:12
152:11 154:8,9
156:21 157:25
158:8,25 159:6
168:23 169:25
175:10,22 181:3,5
182:6,18 186:16
186:25 187:10
193:6
seeing 119:17
143:6
seek 76:9 84:9
seeking 67:16 68:5
69:18 70:11 78:5
90:25 91:11 92:6
94:22 95:4 189:3
seen 58:2 84:2
85:14,16 150:25
151:6
selected 47:7 63:7
63:8 176:1 187:8
selective 136:11
175:19 177:1
sell 160:2
sense 12:12
sent 24:17 86:13
sentence 88:2 94:1
99:10,15,17
110:14 113:3

131:3 133:1 168:1
170:17 172:21
175:12,25 180:23
182:4,14 183:3
separate 18:10
32:8 103:1
separately 63:15
63:23 144:25
series 10:20 85:21
serve 20:20 47:9
53:9
served 20:4 83:13
service 71:19
129:4,8,13 188:15
services 5:18 7:18
7:22 9:10 19:10
23:17,19 35:19
107:19 118:11,15
119:16 120:23
143:23 146:5
151:16
set 170:5,8 175:18
184:25 202:5
sets 22:8 131:9
seven 134:21,22
134:23,23 178:21
sheet 7:17 33:21
33:24
sheets 33:20
175:17
short 96:17,19
shorthand 2:24
202:1,9
show 24:8 85:8
115:13 143:16
showing 191:7
192:4
shown 115:12
116:10
side 139:25 159:9
171:21

sight 137:14 138:1
180:12 190:19
signature 107:22
151:13,17 172:1
202:24
signed 145:23
172:1,22 173:4
significant 123:12
123:20 124:3
signing 151:18
similar 143:2
146:16 151:3
152:10,11,12
156:11 158:6
190:17,21
similarly 38:3
96:11
simply 81:17
simultaneously
21:1
single 145:6
site 35:2 72:4,17
72:24
situations 91:20
92:16
six 149:24 170:1
187:7,8 188:6
sixth 178:15,15
skim 156:6,15
slate 98:16
society 1:4,7 2:4,7
4:3 8:15
sole 168:8 172:19
solely 110:6
somebody 31:21
173:12 174:20
179:5
sorry 15:1,5 26:10
27:20 43:20 46:23
55:23 56:18,20
58:14 68:6,15
Page 28

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[sorry - state]
78:14 88:21 91:6
91:25 100:5
104:12 105:10,12
109:5 114:1
115:17 120:12
123:25 125:17
126:3 129:2
140:11 157:8
160:7 166:16
172:18 176:8
181:19 182:25
183:1 184:23
186:23 187:6,10
sort 149:5 195:4
sought 76:19 78:1
sound 172:24
184:21
sounds 104:25
sources 40:12 43:6
78:25
south 3:16
speak 119:10,11
121:16 183:11
speaking 184:11
special 113:4,15
113:19
specific 18:21 27:8
47:3 64:11 80:9
100:2 102:12
116:10,17 142:12
149:6 170:3 185:1
193:22
specifically 19:1
19:24 75:22
179:19 184:11
194:11 198:6
specifications
106:6
specifics 27:15
32:15 99:20 148:6

specifies 140:23
speculate 126:17
159:22 164:16
speculation 55:14
57:4 58:21 62:8
65:24 67:12 69:7
69:23 70:13,20
71:21 72:19 75:9
76:13,22 82:8
84:12 86:10 90:14
91:3,14 95:20
96:2,22 97:8,16,25
99:18 100:25
101:15 116:19
118:3,22 119:7,19
121:10 125:25
126:11,22 127:8
132:6 133:17
137:2 142:14
144:15,19 146:3
149:19,25 162:5
163:6 192:7,19
197:15
spoke 18:3 29:2
78:21 116:8 169:6
169:21 174:25
175:4
spoken 12:14
153:12 160:25
193:21
spring 20:15
sprinkler 125:10
sprinklers 125:11
ss 66:11,16
stack 167:17
180:21
staff 7:16 13:23
19:23 20:2 45:3
47:2 85:23,24
87:8 92:22 100:9
101:1,9 118:16

132:18 146:4,5
147:13 153:5
165:2,5
stages 14:16
stand 35:21 44:7
standalone 192:18
standard 7:13
22:13 26:3 27:8
27:17,21 30:5,16
31:7,8,13,13,20
32:8,14,18 41:7
44:6 65:11 107:17
149:5
standards 5:3 7:24
9:8,11 13:17,19,22
14:1,9 16:16
17:10 19:3,9 23:8
24:4 26:1,3,7,9,11
26:13,19,24,25
27:9,10,11,12,19
27:23,25 28:2,4,7
28:8,11,16,17,23
29:6,18 30:4,24
31:22 35:22 36:5
37:3,10 38:22
39:16,21,23 40:8
40:10,11,13 41:4,6
41:11 45:3,6,18
47:2 51:7,17,18
52:20,23 54:19
63:13,24 67:16
73:25 75:18 84:22
99:12,22 100:20
101:3,19 102:14
102:24 104:10,12
104:22,24 105:2,9
105:15,18,24
106:2,6,11,15
107:5,19 111:16
117:9 121:17
127:15 130:24

131:12 133:2
142:25 144:8,13
151:17 158:24
159:7,17 161:3,4,7
161:15,19,22
162:9 164:6
165:25 166:1,4,8,8
183:14 189:20
190:13 193:21
196:23 198:1,5,8
199:11
stands 35:18
142:10
start 11:22 116:18
161:5
starting 98:16
starts 74:7 187:7
state 5:5,17 7:13
9:25 10:12 13:21
14:19 15:23 17:22
18:25,25 19:15,18
21:23 23:13,25
29:17,18 30:1
35:16 38:20 39:13
39:14,18,20 40:15
40:23 41:5 44:18
44:18,22 45:10,14
45:15,16,23 46:11
48:1,7,19 51:14
52:4,6,11,12,17,18
52:22 63:22 64:10
66:15 68:9,12,16
69:11,15 73:22
74:3,14,20 75:1,6
75:15,17 76:17
77:24 78:4,22
79:17,21 89:5,9
103:23 104:9,15
106:16,17 109:8
111:17 115:15
116:9,16 117:2,6
Page 29

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[state - takes]
117:11,14,20
118:1,6,13,19
127:23 128:14,16
128:20,23 129:1,3
129:6,11,15,21,22
130:15,19 134:1
134:18 138:3,9,12
140:18 141:6
144:11 148:13
149:2 159:23
160:1 166:4,9,14
167:8 169:9,16
170:6 175:21
176:3 182:16,22
183:4,6,11,16
184:1,15 185:5,13
186:15,24 187:2,9
187:11,15,16,22
187:24 188:1
195:3 201:18
202:2
state's 123:13,21
124:4
stated 102:19
121:13 191:16
statement 17:16
18:16 40:18 45:24
45:25 46:10 63:18
63:25 67:21,23
68:22 69:2,15
120:4,18 122:13
122:16 123:11,15
133:21 135:13
140:22 191:11
statements 18:20
18:24
states 1:1 2:1
74:12 89:2 110:2
115:8 116:25
134:24 140:16
179:2

statewide 129:24
stating 61:21
86:13
stats 161:14
steps 116:4 123:1
137:19,22
store 37:5
street 3:7 4:18
5:10
strength 124:15
strike 16:23 31:1
34:16 38:1 41:23
43:14 48:1 51:3
51:15 52:5 53:8
64:4 66:4 67:8
68:2,7,11,25 69:11
69:12 70:17 73:15
74:18,19 76:16
77:2 78:8,9 84:16
86:22,24 92:17
93:1,3 94:4,16,20
95:2 96:16,18
98:12,14 108:11
115:12,14 120:3
125:19,21 130:24
131:16 132:1
133:10 141:4
144:9 154:2 155:1
155:16 190:16
196:2
strikeout 17:19
116:11 191:17,20
191:21
strikeouts 191:7
191:20 192:4,25
structural 66:16
124:14
study 15:1,3,9
sub 66:25 67:1
subdivision
122:18

subdomain 35:18
subject 13:8 36:18
41:18 182:5,15,21
183:5,5,10,12
194:13
sublicense 110:3
submittal 48:2
submitted 45:2
48:3 152:25,25
subpoena 7:9
23:22 24:20 50:23
83:15 84:3 86:21
86:23,25 152:17
subscribed 202:20
substance 148:22
194:2
substantive
148:10
successfully 144:6
suggest 172:22
suggests 156:14
suite 2:21
summarize 169:8
supplement 35:9
113:15,19,25
192:18
supplements
110:4 113:4
175:15,15
supplied 19:25
supplies 15:17
59:6
support 13:23
suppose 27:14
supposed 157:6
166:19
sure 16:22 17:2
22:4 35:14 48:11
65:15 82:24 98:8
112:15 120:5
146:18 155:8

157:6 166:15,17
171:11 172:17
183:3 185:11
197:16
suren 93:10
180:24
swears 8:24
switch 145:5
switching 186:2
sworn 9:21 202:7
systems 16:21
t
table 64:8 65:1,18
65:21 66:3,5,10
tables 64:6,13
115:10
take 11:13 12:1
14:23 15:2 18:1
22:9 28:24 29:1
29:11,13 46:13
48:23 82:20 83:8
84:22 85:13
102:17 104:14
116:5 123:1
128:18 130:4
145:11 154:23
156:6,15 176:5
180:18 183:22
200:9,10
taken 2:20 10:3
22:25 26:18 48:4
94:12 98:4 103:18
137:19,22 138:4
138:12 179:22
202:4
takes 14:22 22:12
46:3 128:21
129:11,16,25
130:7,11,16,20
171:1
Page 30

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[talk - triennial]
talk 11:17,18
18:24 104:19
161:4 162:2,2,18
167:15 171:21
talked 41:9 161:2
166:7 180:19,20
181:25
talking 15:6 80:18
80:25 81:16
128:25 162:13
167:19 173:10
182:2
talks 139:4
team 95:4
technical 17:25
45:9,11 47:10
163:16
technician 86:4
tell 11:23 27:15
114:19 139:8
148:12 154:15
156:10 162:3
163:3 173:14
176:14,25 177:8
188:16
tells 62:19 114:5
ten 13:23 15:13
16:16 18:9 156:15
188:8
tend 161:18
term 47:9 49:8,11
49:13,18,23 50:6,9
175:12 187:3
terminology 76:5
terms 17:16,18,24
18:2,4,10 45:25
73:9 129:19
145:22 146:1
147:1,4,9,18
148:10,13 149:1
150:4,9 151:3

testified 8:6 36:1
47:19 51:16 70:23
71:25
testify 7:9 83:15
testifying 202:7
testimony 10:14
10:17,22 12:15,17
13:11 51:20 54:6
61:5 64:18 70:25
72:6 92:13 93:1,3
104:3 112:22
121:13 122:8
129:5 138:16
150:14 152:4
161:6,11 188:22
201:14 202:11
testing 1:4 2:4 4:3
8:16
tests 97:19
text 38:21 52:7
55:19 56:2,8 60:8
60:15 61:17 62:4
71:16,18 72:4,7,11
92:5 97:22 101:13
101:19 102:1
103:6 115:15
174:5 192:10
thank 15:11 16:10
35:15 109:4
198:24 199:17
thanks 22:17
161:2
thing 25:6 109:24
156:25 157:11
169:8
things 122:13
171:22
think 17:17 27:24
30:2 41:14 70:5
80:6 81:14 94:12
104:7 106:19,22

114:16 123:25
124:18 161:13
165:1,4,10 166:7
166:17,23 198:18
third 40:6,21
109:16 178:5
thirteen 36:16
thought 128:24
187:20
thousand 82:16
155:21 156:8
three 20:6 35:7
40:10,18 41:4,14
47:9 109:12
181:21 182:1
187:8 188:4
time 11:25 12:9
18:7 21:2,3 86:3
99:19 100:19
108:16 110:21
123:10,13 124:18
132:22 133:13,16
144:24 152:10
156:6 172:22
173:4 202:5
timeframe 152:7
timeline 138:23
139:2,15
timetable 170:5
timing 48:1,2
139:5,5
title 14:6,7,7,10,10
14:12 19:19 35:4
35:6,23 36:15
37:15,18 41:19,21
41:22,25 42:11,18
43:5 47:6,12,20
48:15 89:11,13,15
89:20,22 90:4
93:18 115:12
134:15 154:7

155:1,3 182:6
titles 14:14 89:24
90:6,12,17,20
today 10:20,22
12:15,18,22 61:7
151:1 160:23,25
161:2 168:12
169:6 173:25
177:16 180:19,20
today's 12:24
83:15
tolles 3:4,13 9:14
9:17
tonight 200:8
top 48:5 62:17
64:4,5 65:4
108:20 111:5
114:21 121:16,25
151:11 172:4,17
175:11 184:18
track 116:6
training 195:1,2,4
195:5,14,16 196:4
196:8,14 198:19
199:9
trainings 195:8,20
196:1,11 198:4,6
198:11,13 199:7
transcribed 202:9
transcript 201:12
202:10,13,15
treated 90:5
tried 61:17 93:11
97:3,11,19 174:4
180:25
triennial 36:14
37:2,14 47:1 80:9
81:5 99:14 111:8
111:18,21 139:2
142:24

Page 31
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[triennially - viewing]
triennially 35:7
true 51:24 119:9
201:15 202:10
try 11:10,17,18
169:8
trying 27:7,24
70:6,9
tsc 1:7 2:7
turn 167:17,24
178:3,8 181:20,21
twenty 188:9
two 25:20 40:16
40:20 46:25 47:8
66:18 67:1,4
88:10 103:3
111:12,14 113:2
131:3 149:16,18
158:9 160:22
176:22 186:17
187:8
type 16:24
types 16:16 40:10
122:6 124:23
193:16
u
u.s. 24:23
uh 15:12,15 18:18
31:6 37:16 40:19
46:23 47:22 48:23
56:15 67:2 88:19
88:21 89:12 91:9
93:16 102:18
115:17 123:8
131:2 132:16
139:17 140:15
151:14 167:18
180:22 199:18
ultimately 14:20
46:5 169:20
unable 179:11

unauthorized
33:19
underline 17:20
underneath
151:15 178:18
undersigned 202:1
understand 10:21
11:1,5,8,20 12:1
15:11 22:4,5 27:6
27:7,24 28:1
30:21 31:23 32:12
41:3 43:21 50:11
50:17 53:21 64:24
65:10 71:12 76:4
85:9 93:18 110:9
115:24 152:14
156:9
understanding
40:23 49:22 50:9
50:18 51:2,5
65:16 70:5 79:10
79:14 89:17
110:17,24 111:19
112:2,6,10,18
163:3,15,20,25
172:8 189:1,11
understood 11:14
11:14 76:8
unfair 81:15
105:19
uniform 134:17,17
unit 148:20 149:8
united 1:1 2:1
universe 86:24,25
unnecessarily
106:2
unreasonable
105:18
url 35:12,13 58:5
100:14

use 14:3 50:4 63:2
102:5 110:3
111:11,14,16,20
117:11,14,21
118:1,7,12,14,16
119:1 134:14
166:5 199:6
useful 88:6,9
user 37:25 38:3
82:5 114:2,5
uses 161:3
utilize 14:1 23:15
23:19 112:6
utilized 188:15
utilizing 23:13
v
vague 19:16 53:12
55:22 56:5,11
65:7 80:5,17 81:9
81:13,15 91:4
98:7,22 106:2
111:1 118:9 121:2
123:16 139:11
141:14,17 149:3
150:5,11 151:5
161:24 162:1
163:5 166:16
184:23
vaguely 142:4
variety 18:24
193:20
various 14:18
107:6 127:23
161:19 162:25
169:9
verbal 11:6 56:17
verify 121:20
155:23
veritext 8:21
version 37:6,18
43:13,15,16,25

44:1 46:6 53:1
60:21 71:19 77:13
78:11,16,25 79:7
79:12,19,23 80:2
80:10,14 81:5,5
100:9 101:8 102:2
111:21 121:4
122:1 172:5
versions 33:8
122:5
versus 8:16
vertically 62:23
159:10
vet 45:1
vetting 162:8
viana 5:16 9:9
video 8:12 49:1,5
82:24 83:1 103:15
103:19 145:15,17
160:11,14 186:3,6
199:22 200:12
videographer 5:21
8:20
videotaped 1:17
2:19
view 93:12,14 94:8
95:6,11 96:9,12,15
98:11,20 123:5
165:24 173:12,16
173:18 174:10
177:18 178:22
179:6 181:3
viewable 39:3
123:4
viewed 21:25
96:25 174:1
viewer 59:6,18,21
60:5,7,9,16,23
61:10,18 63:6
viewing 59:6 98:3

Page 32
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[violate - witness]
violate 29:25
volume 1:20 2:20
6:4 159:5
volumes 145:6
voss 151:19,21,23
voted 163:11
vs 1:12 2:12
w
wait 11:19 139:23
want 8:9 39:12
52:14 86:18 88:1
88:12 96:13,15
113:2 115:6
116:23,24 123:9
130:25 132:25
134:19,20 140:6
140:13 151:12
154:5 156:9
159:22 160:10,20
162:2 164:15
167:15 168:15
171:21 173:10
185:24 199:23
200:2
wanted 40:1
179:10
wanting 80:24
93:13 181:2
wants 102:13
washington 3:9
4:9
way 12:18 31:2
52:8 56:14,23,24
57:13 59:25 61:14
69:18 79:14 86:14
95:23 96:4 100:18
108:6 122:24
139:6 148:25
158:15 171:4,11
171:16 174:20
192:23 193:5

ways 124:24
173:11,14
we've 89:11 91:16
137:21 138:2
144:21 161:2
web 34:23,24 35:1
37:24 38:13,17
40:25 58:25 61:10
63:25 95:10
132:22 133:3
website 35:15 37:3
37:6,11,18 38:3
39:3 41:21,24
52:21 54:15,17,17
54:19,20,22,25
55:6,7,12,13 60:21
60:25 67:20 70:15
70:24 71:2,3,4,15
71:19,22 72:3,8,8
73:1,1,3,10 82:4,7
82:16 89:22 90:10
90:10,13,18,22
92:7 93:12 95:14
95:19 96:1,10,21
97:1,4,7,12,15,20
97:24 98:4,6,14,19
99:13,24 100:8,10
100:23 101:14,20
101:23,24 102:21
103:7 113:6,7,19
114:18,20,20,21
114:22 117:22,23
123:4 134:1,2,7
135:14 139:4
173:15 181:1,22
websites 38:4
123:7
weeks 24:17 83:13
weighed 46:12
went 40:24 106:20

west 4:14 7:5 9:2,5
wet 162:2
whereof 202:19
wholesale 136:18
wide 125:13
width 125:8,23
126:9
wish 152:18
witness 5:4 6:2
8:24 9:7,21 16:2,9
26:21 27:14 31:10
31:25 32:4,11,13
34:7 35:4 36:8
38:6,24 39:3,11
42:4,21 43:2,20,22
44:4,12 46:8
48:11,17 49:20
50:1,15,24 51:12
52:2,20 53:13
54:7 55:3,9,23
56:12,18,20 57:5
57:11,16 58:14,20
58:22 59:9,15,23
60:12,18 61:6,14
62:16 63:18 65:8
65:15,25 66:10
69:8,24 70:14,21
71:11,22 72:7,14
72:20 73:13,20
75:1,10 76:23
77:16 80:6 81:10
82:9,19 84:13
85:2 86:11 89:1
90:2,9,15 91:5,16
91:25 92:14 94:12
94:25 95:8,21
96:3,23 97:9,17
98:1,8 99:19
100:5,16 101:1,7
101:16,22 103:10
103:14 104:4

107:2 108:15
109:4,23 110:21
111:4,11,24 112:5
112:15,25 114:11
114:25 116:8,20
117:9,18 118:10
118:23 119:20
120:1,11,16 121:3
121:11 123:17,25
125:1,16 126:2,14
127:1,9,23 132:7
133:18 137:3,10
137:17 138:8,17
139:12 142:15,20
143:14,20 144:16
144:20 145:9,14
146:4 147:6,25
148:17,19 149:4
149:20 150:1,6,12
151:6 152:5,18
153:16 154:21
155:10,12,23
156:9,19 157:8,19
158:5,14,23
159:17 162:6,16
162:23 163:7
164:9,15,23 165:8
165:14,20 166:3
167:2,11 168:20
170:15 171:8
172:14 173:1,8
179:1,14 180:3
182:25 183:10,21
184:6,23 185:8,19
188:23 189:8,16
191:10,15 192:8
192:14,20 193:3
194:10,17 195:13
196:8,13,18 197:8
197:16 198:16,22
202:19
Page 33

Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

[witnesses - ziegler]
witnesses 202:6
word 94:6
wording 148:7
194:4
work 127:9 142:23
170:1 172:5
worked 78:20
118:10 120:21
146:22
working 119:3
133:7
workshops 45:1
worries 15:7
187:11
write 87:23 165:5
165:11
writing 197:5,11
written 106:17
148:25 181:4,5
www.dgs.ca.gov
35:14
x
x's 66:25 67:3
y
yeah 30:9 50:24
51:12 58:14,14,22
58:22 65:8,15
69:8,24,24 77:16
77:23 82:19,21
84:13 89:1 90:15
98:8 100:19
108:15 110:21
111:4,24 112:15
112:25 114:13
123:17 126:2
127:9 132:7 138:8
140:13 142:15
145:2,12 148:4,8
148:19 149:4,20
154:21 156:19

157:19,24 158:14
165:22 172:14
186:1 195:13
year 35:25 47:9
60:22 149:6
years 20:6 35:7
46:25 47:8 88:10
103:3,3 111:12,15
144:2,21,22,22
145:2 196:13
yen 5:8 9:6,6
32:10,12 39:12,20
39:24 40:1,4
43:19,21 52:11,17
52:19 55:14 56:16
56:19 58:11,21
62:8,15 81:13
82:18,21 84:11,24
87:15 90:14
101:15 103:11
104:2 108:13
109:2,21 110:11
110:19 111:1,22
112:4,13,23
116:19 118:3
121:10 122:7
125:25 133:17
147:5 148:15,18
149:3,19,25 150:5
150:11 151:5
153:14 155:7,11
160:10 185:24
200:1,4,11,15
z
zero 108:21,22,25
109:9
ziegler 3:5,11 6:8
6:10 9:13,13 16:1
16:5,10 19:16
21:14 22:14 23:21
24:6,25 26:14
Page 34
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

Fede r al Ru l es o f Civil Pro cedure
Rule 3 0

(e)

Rev i ew By t he W t ness ; Changes .
i

(1)

Review ; S t a t e men t o f Changes . On r eques t by t he

dep o nen t

o r a pa rt y be f o r e t he dep o s i t i o n is

c o mp l e t ed , t he dep o nen t mus t be a ll owed 3 0 days
af t e r be i ng n o t if i ed by t he o ff i ce r t ha t
tr ansc ri p t
(A)

t he

o r r eco r ding is available in which :

t o r evie w t he tr ansc ri p t o r r ec o r ding ; and

( B) i f t he r e a r e changes i n f o rm o r subs t ance , t o
s i gn a s t a t emen t

li s t i ng t he changes and t he

r eas o ns f o r mak i ng t he m.
( 2 ) Changes Indica t ed i n t he Off ice r' s Ce rti f i ca t e .
The o ff i ce r mus t

n o t e in t he ce rt if i ca t e p r esc r ibed

by Ru l e 3 0 ( f ) ( 1 ) whe t he r a r evie w was r eques t ed
and ,

i f s o , mus t a tt ach any changes t he dep o nen t

makes du ri ng t he 3 0 - day pe r i o d .

DI SCLA IMER :

THE FORE GO I NG FE DERAL PROCEDURE RU LES

ARE PROVIDED FOR I NFORMATI ONA L PURP OS ES ON LY .
THE ABOVE RU LES ARE CU RRE NT AS OF APRI L 1 ,
20 19 .

PLEAS E RE FER TO TH E APPLI CA BLE FED ERAL RUL ES

OF CI VI L PROCEDU RE FOR UP- TO - DATE I NFORMATI ON .

VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
COMPANY CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
Veritext Legal Solutions represents that the
foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete
transcript of the colloquies, questions and answers
as submitted by the court reporter. Veritext Legal
Solutions further represents that the attached
exhibits, if any, are true, correct and complete
documents as submitted by the court reporter and/or
attorneys in relation to this deposition and that
the documents were processed in accordance with
our litigation support and production standards.
Veritext Legal Solutions is committed to maintaining
the confidentiality of client and witness information,
in accordance with the regulations promulgated under
the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability
Act (HIPAA), as amended with respect to protected
health information and the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as
amended, with respect to Personally Identifiable
Information (PII). Physical transcripts and exhibits
are managed under strict facility and personnel access
controls. Electronic files of documents are stored
in encrypted form and are transmitted in an encrypted
fashion to authenticated parties who are permitted to
access the material. Our data is hosted in a Tier 4
SSAE 16 certified facility.
Veritext Legal Solutions complies with all federal and
State regulations with respect to the provision of
court reporting services, and maintains its neutrality
and independence regardless of relationship or the
financial outcome of any litigation. Veritext requires
adherence to the foregoing professional and ethical
standards from all of its subcontractors in their
independent contractor agreements.
Inquiries about Veritext Legal Solutions'
confidentiality and security policies and practices
should be directed to Veritext's Client Services
Associates indicated on the cover of this document or
at www.veritext.com.