AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

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EXHIBIT 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ----------------------------------AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND ) Case No. MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;) 1:13-cv-01215-EGS ) NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ) ASSOCIATION, INC.; and ) ) AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING, ) REFRIGERATING, AND ) AIR-CONDITIONING ENGINEERS, INC., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) vs. ) ) PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., ) ) Defendant. ) -----------------------------------) AND RELATED COUNTERCLAIMS. ) -----------------------------------) RULE 30(B)(6) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF AMERICAN STANDARDS SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS, BY AND THROUGH ITS DESIGNEE, JEFFREY GROVE WASHINGTON, D.C. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2015 Reported by: NANCY J. MARTIN, CSR No. 9504, RMR Job No. 2010158 PAGES 1 - 284 Page 1 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 3 ----------------------------------AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND ) Case No 4 MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;) 1:13-cv-01215-EGS ) 5 NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ) ASSOCIATION, INC ; and ) 6 ) AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING, ) 7 REFRIGERATING, AND ) AIR-CONDITIONING ENGINEERS, INC , ) 8 ) Plaintiffs, ) 9 vs ) ) 10 PUBLIC RESOURCE ORG, INC , ) ) 11 Defendant ) -----------------------------------) 12 AND RELATED COUNTERCLAIMS ) -----------------------------------) 13 14 15 Rule 30(B)(6) videotaped deposition of American 16 Standards Society for Testing and Materials, by and 17 through its designee, JEFFREY GROVE taken at Veritext 18 Legal Solutions, 1250 Eye Street NW, Suite 1201, 19 Washington, D C commencing at 9:20 A M , Wednesday, 20 March 4, 2015, before Nancy J Martin, CSR 9504 21 RMR 22 23 24 25 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: (CONTINUED) 2 3 MUNGER, TOLLES & OLSON LLP (VIA TELECON) 4 BY: THANE REHN, ESQ. 5 560 Mission Street 6 27th Floor 7 San Francisco, California 94105 8 (415) 512-4073 9 thane.rehn@mto.com 10 11 12 ALSO PRESENT: 13 THOMAS B. O'BRIEN, JR., Vice President and 14 General Counsel, ASTM International 15 16 CARL MALAMUD, PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG (via telecon) 17 18 CHRIS SOMO, Legal Videographer 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP 5 BY: J. KEVIN FEE, ESQ. 6 1111 Pennsylvania Avenue NW 7 Washington, D.C. 20004 8 (202) 739-5353 9 JKFEE@MORGANLEWIS.COM 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 12 FENWICK & WEST LLP 13 BY: ANDREW P. BRIDGES, ESQ. 14 MATTHEW BECKER, ESQ. 15 555 California Street 16 12th Floor 17 San Francisco, California 94104 18 (415) 875-2389 19 abridges@fenwick.com 20 mbecker@fenwick.com 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX TESTIMONY OF: JEFFREY GROVE BY MR. BRIDGES..................................14 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1022 Amended Notice of Deposition, 53 8 pages Exhibit 1023 Return of Organization Exempt 56 from Income Tax, 2012, 43 pages Exhibit 1024 Email string, ASTM015659 57 -15660, 2 pages Exhibit 1025 Comments of ASTM International, 57 ASTM015661 - -15667, 7 pages Exhibit 1026 Email string, ASTM030644 58 -30647, 4 pages Exhibit 1027 Email string, ASTM015779 61 -15780, 2 pages Exhibit 1028 Email string, ASTM015828 63 -15830, 3 pages Page 3 Page 5 2 (Pages 2 - 5) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1029 Email string, ASTM015912 64 -15913, 2 pages Exhibit 1030 Letter dated April 27, 65 2012, ASTM016538 - -16546, 9 pages Exhibit 1031 Email string, ASTM024218 67 -024219, 2 pages Exhibit 1032 ASTM Standards Regulations 82 & Trade, Power Point, 22 pages Exhibit 1033 Memo from Jeff to Jim, 83 2012 Accomplishments and 2013 Objectives, ASTM019297 - -19299, 3 pages Exhibit 1034 Email string, ASTM100366 84 -100368, 3 pages Exhibit 1035 Email string, ASTM101288 84 -101289, 2 pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1044 Email string, ASTM02893 134 -102897, 5 pages Exhibit 1045 Email string, ASTM022627, 137 1 page Exhibit 1046 Email string, ASTM022630 142 -022631, 2 pages Exhibit 1047 Email string, ATM030712, 193 1 page Exhibit 1048 Email dated February 7, 195 2013, ASTM023336, 1 page Exhibit 1049 Email string, ASTM0255574 199 -025575, 2 pages Exhibit 1050 Email dated May 13, 2013, 199 ASTM027093, 1 page Exhibit 1051 Email dated August 2, 2013, 203 ASTM029833 - -029834, 2 pages Exhibit 1052 Email string, ASTM027187 203 -027188, 2 pages Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1036 Memo from Jeff to ASTM Senior 84 Staff, ASTM101778 - -101779, 2 pages Exhibit 1037 Email string, ASTM101800, 86 1 page Exhibit 1038 ASTM Organizational Chart as 99 of July 1, 2014, ASTM003479 -003489, 11 pages Exhibit 1039 Email string, ASTM102072 103 -102076, 5 pages Exhibit 1040 Email string, ASTM102089, 104 1 page Exhibit 1041 Email string, ASTM102094, 128 1 page Exhibit 1042 Email dated October 17, 2013, 128 ASTM102361, 1 page Exhibit 1043 Structural Forum, Building Codes 132 and the Public Domain, ASTM102388, 1 page Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1053 Email string, ASTM098310 205 -98311, 2 pages Exhibit 1054 Email dated April 24, 2014, 206 ASTM103024, 1 page Exhibit 1055 Email string, ASTM101183 208 -101186, 4 pages Exhibit 1056 Email string, ASTM102031 210 -102032, 2 pages Exhibit 1057 Email string, ASTM102042 220 -102044, 3 pages Exhibit 1058 Email string, ASTM102053 228 -102055, 3 pages Exhibit 1059 Email string, ASTM018709 229 -18710, 2 pages Exhibit 1060 ASTM License Agreement 229 (Reading Room), ASTM001814 -001815, 2 pages Page 7 Page 9 3 (Pages 6 - 9) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1061 ASTM License Agreement, 230 ASTM001788 - -001791, 2 pages Exhibit 1062 Email string, ASTM097943 232 -097945, 3 pages Exhibit 1063 Email string, ASTM097980, 233 1 page Exhibit 1064 Email dated July 21, 2011, 238 ASTM099269, 1 page Exhibit 1065 Email string, ASTM099366 240 -099370, 5 pages Exhibit 1066 Email string, ASTM099834, 242 1 page Exhibit 1067 Email string, ASTM015162, 243 1 page Exhibit 1068 Email string, ASTM0095371 257 -95372, 2 pages Exhibit 1069 Email string, ASTM092006 257 -092009, 4 pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER: Page Line REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS: Page Line QUESTIONS MARKED: Page Line Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --EXHIBITS --NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED Exhibit 1070 Email string, ASTM095373 258 ASTM95376, 4 pages Exhibit 1071 Email string, ASTM019650 258 -19653, 4 pages Exhibit 1072 Form and Style for ASTM 268 Standards, January 2015, 80 pages Exhibit 1073 Incorporation by Reference 269 Public Workshop, July 13, 2012, 15 pages Exhibit 1074 Email string, ASTM005399 270 -5400, 2 pages Exhibit 1075 Email dated August 20, 2014, 271 ASTM003314 - -003315, 2 pages Page 12 1 WASHINGTON, D C , WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2015; 9:20 A M 2 3 -OoO- 09:11:47 09:11:47 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning My name is 4 Chris Somo from Veritext National Deposition Services 5 The date today is March 4, 2015, and the time on the 09:21 06 6 video monitor is 9:20 This deposition is being held 7 at Veritext, Washington, D C located at 09:20:59 09:21:00 09:21 09 09:21:15 8 1250 I Street, Northwest, Washington, D C The 09:21:18 9 caption of this case is American Society for Testing 09:21:21 10 and Materials, et al , v Public Resource O-r-z (sic), 09:21:24 11 Inc This case is filed in the United States District 12 Court for the District of Columbia, Case 09:21:30 09:21:33 13 No 1:13-CV-01215-EGS The name of the witness is 14 Jeffrey Grove 15 09:21:36 09:21:47 At this time the attorneys present in the 09:21:48 16 room and attending remotely, will you please identify 17 yourselves for the record 18 09:21:51 09:21:55 MR BRIDGES: This is Andrew Bridges and 09:21:58 19 Matthew Becker of Fenwick & West representing the 09:21:59 20 defendant, Public Resource Org, and listening in on 09:22 04 21 the telephone is Carl Malamud, M-a-l-a-m-u-d 09:22:08 22 MR FEE: Kevin Fee from Morgan Lewis on 09:22:10 23 behalf of ASTM, and I'm joined with -- by Tom O'Brien 24 from ASTM 25 09:22:17 09:22:20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter, Page 11 09:22:24 Page 13 4 (Pages 10 - 13) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 THE WITNESS: I don't have any criteria. 09:24:56 2 Just I thought it would be a good idea to review 09:24:58 09:22:36 3 annual reports and that type of publicly available 09:25:02 09:22:40 4 information about ASTM. 09:25:04 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:25:08 1 Nancy Martin, please swear in the witness, and we can 2 begin. 3 JEFFREY GROVE, 4 having been first duly sworn, 5 and testified as follows: 6 09:22:40 09:22:40 7 7 09:22:40 8 the ones he selected on his own or the ones -- Q. Good morning, Mr. Grove. 09:22:40 A. Good morning. 11 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 12 A. I have not. 13 Q. Have you had a chance to meet with ASTM 10 09:22:45 09:22:49 09:22:51 A. I did. 16 Q. When did you meet with them? 17 09:22:57 A. I met with our attorneys over a period of 09:22:58 18 three days. The last two days, and once in December. 09:23:01 09:23:06 09:25:12 09:25:14 MR. FEE: Well, I'm going to instruct you not 09:25:14 11 to disclose the documents that you reviewed at the 09:25:16 09:25:18 13 other documents you reviewed. 14 09:25:21 MR. BRIDGES: I think I'm entitled to know 09:25:22 09:25:23 16 deposition. It might reveal attorney work product if 09:25:27 17 he told us what documents were discussed with counsel, 09:25:31 18 but I'm entitled to know which documents he reviewed 09:25:36 19 in general. 20 Q. With whom did you meet? 21 A. I met with Kevin Fee and with Jordana Rubel, 09:23:12 09:25:39 MR. FEE: I disagree. 21 You should follow my instruction. 22 THE WITNESS: I have no other documents that 09:23:32 Q. You understand that you are testifying today 20 09:23:19 22 and with our corporate attorney, Tom O'Brien. A. Yes. MR. BRIDGES: No -- 23 I can recall to disclose. 09:23:13 09:23:34 09:25:41 09:25:43 09:23:38 25 Q. And you understand that you are testifying as 09:25:47 Q. So you're saying that all the documents -- of 09:25:47 Page 16 09:23:40 3 subject matters? A. Yes. 5 3 Q. What did you do to educate yourself about 7 9 10 09:23:49 09:23:52 A. Over the last few days and in my own personal 09:24:03 09:24:07 Q. What did those articles concern? 7 A. Discussed generally ASTM's mission and work 09:26:08 09:26:13 9 in protecting everyday citizens due to the development 09:26:20 09:26:24 10 of standards that protect the environment, health, and 09:26:26 09:26:31 15 Q. Did you select those documents, or did the 12 09:24:13 A. Probably 8 to 10 hours. 13 may need a short break. I forgot, you know, I was 09:26:37 14 supposed to have real time. Can we get real time? 09:26:39 09:24:16 09:24:23 09:24:25 17 A. Personal knowledge, I selected them. 18 Q. What determined which documents you selected 15 MR. BRIDGES: One thing occurred to me. We 17 09:24:38 18 09:24:41 09:24:42 22 your determination, I'm going to instruct you not to 09:24:43 MR. BRIDGES: Thanks. 09:26:43 MR. BECKER: We also have an email from Thane 23 disclose that. If you have some independent review 09:24:48 09:24:50 09:24:53 09:24:55 20 take a break and set up real-time. 21 Sorry about this, but let's go off the record Page 15 09:26:55 09:26:57 23 going to have to drop him and set up a bridge. 25 for a few minutes. 09:26:48 09:26:49 09:26:51 MR. BRIDGES: I think we've got a separate 22 bridge. I think Carl dialed in directly. So we're 24 09:26:43 09:26:43 19 stating he'd like to listen in. So perhaps we should MR. FEE: Objection. To the extent that 09:26:35 REPORTER MARTIN: Yes, sir. I'm working on 16 it right now. 09:24:26 21 legal counsel or their guidance provided any basis for 25 that's fine. 09:26:03 09:24:11 14 24 criteria that you can share with the other side, 09:26:01 5 that I thought I should refresh my memory with. 11 safety. Q. How much time did you spend reviewing 13 documents outside of meetings with attorneys? 20 09:25:56 8 we do to promote ASTM's mission and its important role 09:24:01 19 to review? A. Right. I think the exception to that would 6 09:23:53 09:23:56 16 lawyers select the documents? 09:25:52 09:25:55 4 be standardization news. I contributed some articles Q. And when did you review the documents? 11 time before then. 12 09:23:49 A. In addition to the meetings, I reviewed a lot 8 of documents. 2 are those that you thought to review on your own? 09:23:48 4 6 those subjects? 1 all the documents you reviewed, only annual reports 09:23:46 2 a representative of ASTM with respect to certain 09:25:44 09:25:46 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 14 1 09:25:08 09:25:11 15 what documents he reviewed to prepare for the 09:22:57 24 as a representative of ASTM? MR. FEE: Objection. Are you asking about 12 request or direction of counsel. You can disclose any 09:22:46 15 25 9 09:22:41 14 attorneys to prepare you for this deposition? 23 Q. What else did you review among the documents? 09:22:40 10 19 A total of 15 hours. 1 6 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 9 09:22:25 09:22:27 09:26:59 09:27:01 09:27:03 Page 17 5 (Pages 14 - 17) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now going off the 2 record at 9:26 09:27:05 (A recess was taken from 9:26 a m 4 to 9:37 a m ) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And we're back on the 8 09:38:32 09:38:33 Q Do you recall any other documents that you A I do not 12 Q. Did those figures he gave you accord with A. Generally, yes. 09:41:51 Q. Did that revenue trend -- strike that. 15 09:41:56 Was that revenue trend consistent with 09:42:03 16 revenue trends over previous years? 09:39:21 17 09:39:24 09:42:05 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I don't know. 18 Q Who is that? 09:39:28 18 19 A John Pace 09:39:31 20 Q What did you discuss with him? 21 A Wanted to review ASTM's financials and 09:42:09 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q What did you learn from him? 24 A Not much To be honest, I think I have a 09:42:14 09:42:15 Q. Do you know anything about revenue trends 21 before three years ago? 09:39:38 MR. FEE: Same objection. 23 09:39:46 THE WITNESS: Not that I can produce or 24 recall. 09:39:47 09:42:19 09:42:26 09:42:27 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:39:52 09:42:15 09:42:17 22 09:39:42 23 25 good understanding 20 09:39:31 22 revenues so I was prepared 09:41:43 09:41:45 14 09:39:12 09:39:18 A I made a phone call to our vice president of 09:41:40 09:41:43 13 09:39:06 15 in preparation for your deposition today? 17 sales and publications THE WITNESS: It did not. 09:41:34 12 your expectations? 09:39:01 14 conversation -- of today's deposition with anyone else 09:41:30 09:41:33 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:38:59 13 attorneys, did you discuss the topics of today's Q. Did it strike you as unusual or unexpected in MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and compound. 11 Q Apart from conversations specifically with 09:41:28 09:41:30 9 09:38:50 09:38:53 11 THE WITNESS: No. 8 09:38:48 9 reviewed on your own initiative apart from annual 09:41:25 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 any -- 09:38:48 09:41:21 09:41:23 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 6 09:38:34 10 reports and standardization news? 16 3 09:34:30 7 BY MR BRIDGES: Q. Did you attach any significance to that 4 3 6 record at 9:37 1 2 figure? 09:27:05 09:42:32 Page 18 1 Q. What did you ask him about? 2 A. I wanted to review with him what I knew about 4 Q. What else did you ask him about? 5 A. That's all I recall. 6 09:39:59 Q. Did you review -- did you discuss with him 09:40:07 09:40:12 MR. FEE: Objection. Form. 9 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 09:40:20 11 09:40:34 Q. And did you discuss with him any trends with 09:40:37 12 respect to revenue that ASTM gains from publications? MR. FEE: Objection to form. 14 Go ahead. 15 THE WITNESS: I did ask -- I wanted to learn 16 over the last couple of years, roughly, what increase Q. Did you have conversations with anyone else 4 to prepare for your testimony today? MR. FEE: I assume you're excluding 09:42:49 09:42:50 7 MR. BRIDGES: Yes. 09:42:52 MR. FEE: -- of that question? 09:42:52 9 MR. BRIDGES: Yes. 09:42:54 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 09:42:55 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:43:04 Q. How long have you worked for ASTM? 13 A. Just over 10 years. Q. What have your job titles been? 09:40:48 15 16 representative. My second title was director of 09:41:02 Q. What did you learn about the increase in 19 affairs. 09:41:01 A. That's all I recall. 09:43:11 09:43:13 09:43:15 18 is vice president of global policy and industry 09:41:01 21 09:43:07 17 government and industry affairs, and my current title 09:40:56 20 09:43:04 A. My original job title was Washington 09:40:53 09:40:47 Q. What else? 09:42:40 09:42:43 6 conversations with counsel for purposes -- 09:40:42 12 09:40:45 19 09:42:32 09:42:39 14 13 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 10 09:40:37 17 in sales we've been experiencing. A. That's all I recall. 8 09:40:25 09:40:30 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. What else did you discuss with Mr. Pace? 2 5 09:40:15 7 any changes in revenue to ASTM from publications? 8 1 09:39:55 3 sources of ASTM's revenue from the sale publications. Page 20 20 09:43:29 Q. In that job title, what does the word 09:43:39 09:41:05 21 "industry" refer to? 22 sales that ASTM has been experiencing? 09:41:07 22 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 23 09:41:10 23 THE WITNESS: Well, the majority of ASTM 09:41:15 24 members under our system of private sector led A. That there has been a very slight 2 to 3 to 5 24 percent increase over the last two to three years. 25 Revenue from sales of publications. 09:43:41 09:43:43 25 public/private collaboration come from industry. So I 09:41:18 Page 19 09:43:21 09:43:25 09:43:48 09:43:51 09:43:56 Page 21 6 (Pages 18 - 21) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 work with industry to make them aware of ASTM and to 2 try to get them engaged in our process 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 4 Q So "industry" in that title doesn't refer to 6 industries of its members -- Q What was your undergraduate degree? 12 A My undergraduate degree is in -- I'm a double 09:44:40 15 equipped you for your job at ASTM? 11 chairman, yes 09:44:47 13 A It's a U S Department of Commerce 09:45 05 17 THE WITNESS: From 1993 to 2000 I worked for 09:45:21 09:45:29 09:48:22 A There is an organization called the American 09:48:27 17 National Standards Institute, and I serve on the 09:48:28 09:48:32 Q What else? 20 09:45:33 09:48:40 A In 2009 I served the State Department -- U S 09:48:44 21 State Department as a delegate to the -- I want to 09:45:42 09:48:50 22 make sure I get it right Asia-Pacific Economic 09:45:37 23 Association for Computing Machinery here in 09:48:55 23 Council APEC It involved meetings in Singapore 09:45:44 09:45:47 Q What else? Q What other positions have you held? 19 09:45:33 25 09:48:11 18 National Policy Committee 09:45:32 24 Washington 09:48:08 14 Congressionally chartered committee 16 09:45:20 18 the U S House of Representatives in different 09:48:06 15 09:45:15 MR FEE: Objection Vague A From 2001 to 2004 I worked for the 09:48:03 Q Is that a USTR committee? 16 22 09:47:55 12 Q What employment did you have before ASTM that 09:47:42 09:47:46 09:48:01 09:44:44 13 major in political science and public administration Q What else? 09:47:40 9 served as the vice chairman of regulation, 11 21 A So I've been appointed to work for the 8 Advisory Committee where for the last four years I've 09:44:28 20 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:47:34 10 certification, and standards I'm sorry Vice A Yes 19 positions 09:47:34 Q You may answer 7 Department of Commerce, Environmental Technology Trade 09:44:28 10 14 09:47:33 6 09:44:28 Q -- is that correct? MR FEE: Objection to form 5 09:44:22 09:47:29 09:47:31 4 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:44:15 09:44:20 8 BY MR BRIDGES: 9 3 09:44:12 MR FEE: Objection to form 1 curiosity, but the question is broad enough that it 2 might call for that 09:44:12 5 industry that ASTM is in Instead, it refers to the 7 09:43:59 09:44:03 24 Q What else? 25 A That's all I recall 09:49:00 09:49:11 09:49:20 Page 22 1 A. 2004, I was hired by ASTM. 2 Q. Did you receive any training as an engineer? 3 A. I'm not an engineer, no. 4 Q. Did you receive any scientific technical 5 training? 09:45:48 09:46:07 09:46:11 09:46:13 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and compound. 7 THE WITNESS: No. Science and technology 8 policy I was involved in, but not a scientist. 09:46:17 09:46:20 09:46:22 09:46:58 Q. In the time you have worked for ASTM, have 11 you held any type of position in any other the 12 organization? 09:46:58 09:47:01 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 14 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:47:03 09:47:05 09:47:07 Q. Well, another association or industry group. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Any other entity that you've had a title in. 20 A. Okay. 09:47:08 8 09:49:47 09:49:47 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that 09:49:47 09:49:48 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 09:49:37 09:49:47 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 7 speculation. 09:49:48 Q. Are you familiar with the domain name or 13 09:49:54 09:49:57 A. Okay. So I can't speak with certainty, but 09:50:00 14 that could be referring to work that ASTM and FPA and 17 09:50:06 09:47:16 09:47:19 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 church he belongs to, et cetera, or just as an ASTM 09:47:27 MR. BRIDGES: Well, that's not a focus of my 09:47:20 21 09:50:20 09:50:21 09:50:26 09:50:37 Q. Did you understand the work that ASTM and FPA 09:47:21 22 and ASME undertook together to be as part of some 09:47:24 23 informal coalition? 24 09:47:28 25 Page 23 09:50:10 09:50:14 MR. FEE: I'll just remind you to answer 18 about your knowledge. Don't speculate. 22 his personal capacity too? Do you want to know what 25 6 16 standards back in 2012. 09:47:16 MR. FEE: Objection. Are you asking about 24 employee? Q. Are you familiar with an organization that 15 ASME undertook together to educate the public about 09:47:08 17 21 4 09:49:25 09:49:34 12 website SDOAWARENESS.ORG? THE WITNESS: Could you help define 15 "organization." 09:49:22 A. I'm not familiar with that title. 9 organization. 09:47:02 13 Q. Have you ever heard of an informal 2 organization called coalition for SDO awareness? 5 that title suggests? 6 10 1 3 09:46:16 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 24 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 09:50:37 09:50:40 09:50:44 09:50:46 THE WITNESS: Informal coalition would be my 09:50:49 Page 25 7 (Pages 22 - 25) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 recollection of this group. 09:50:52 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 Q. Do you recall any other name for that 5 questions ago? 09:50:57 09:51:00 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. Are you aware that that informal coalition 09:51:10 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 09:51:11 12 not aware that we retained a lobbyist for that 15 09:51:25 Q. Are you aware of any of the work of an 09:51:29 Q. Are you aware of its work with respect to 09:53:23 09:53:26 Q. Who else participated in the informal group? A. My counterparts, being Washington 15 09:53:27 09:53:30 09:53:32 Q. Who are those counterparts? A. At the time, for ASME, it was a 09:53:40 09:53:44 18 believe it was Megan Housewright. 09:51:32 21 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that we worked with 23 an organization called APCO on a public awareness 09:51:38 22 09:51:40 09:51:43 Q. Do you recall their titles at their 09:54:01 09:54:03 A. I don't. I do not. 09:54:04 Q. How did you first come to hear about the 09:54:09 23 possibility of these companies working with APCO? 24 09:51:46 09:53:48 09:53:54 20 respective organizations? 09:51:35 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:53:21 12 19 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 24 project. A. And, again, I wouldn't call it an 09:51:32 21 speculation. 22 9 09:53:19 17 representative named Robert Grains, and for NFPA I 09:51:30 19 standards development organizations? 20 09:53:19 Q. Did you participate in the organization? 16 09:51:28 18 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14 representatives for ASME and for NFPA. 09:51:25 A. Yes, I'm aware. 09:53:15 09:53:18 13 09:51:23 17 09:53:11 THE WITNESS: I don't know why -- how the 09:51:14 11 participated. 09:51:16 16 organization called APCO? 4 speculation. 09:53:09 10 organization. It's an informal group. But, yes, I THE WITNESS: ASTM does not lobby. So I'm 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:53:07 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 8 09:51:12 13 coalition. 3 6 organization was formed. 09:51:10 10 Calls for speculation. 09:53:07 Q. Why do you not know? 5 09:51:09 8 retained a lobbyist in Washington? 11 2 09:50:56 4 informal coalition than the name I used a few 9 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:50:56 09:54:13 A. I don't recall exactly how I came to be aware 25 of it. 09:54:26 09:54:30 Page 26 1 Q When you said, "we" in the last answer, who 2 are you referring to? 3 A That was jointly undertaken between FPA and A. I believe that we -- the representatives of 09:54:41 09:51:55 09:54:48 A We did, yes 7 Q You mentioned ASTM and FPA and ASME as part 09:52:02 09:52:17 09:54:58 7 Washington, D.C. and beyond. So I believe we got -- 09:55:01 09:55:06 9 that would be to work with a firm that's more familiar 09:52:24 09:55:10 10 with public affairs capabilities and attributes. 09:52:33 09:55:15 11 09:52:25 THE WITNESS: My recollection is those are 09:54:52 8 had that discussion and decided the best way to do 09:52:23 MR FEE: Objection Mischaracterizes his 5 raise a greater awareness about the benefits the U.S. 6 Standards System with our key stakeholders in 6 10 testimony and vague 09:54:31 09:54:37 4 the organizations recognized that there was a need to Q Did ASTM contribute to the payments to APCO? 11 3 09:51:50 09:51:55 8 of the group; is that correct? Q. What's the first activity that you recall you 2 engaged in with respect to that group? 5 9 1 09:51:46 09:51:48 4 FPA and ASME Page 28 09:55:26 Q. What was the first activity that you recall 12 the three organizations, correct 09:52:35 12 you engaged in with respect to that group? 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:52:38 13 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 14 THE WITNESS: Identifying what -- some of the 14 Q Do you recall whether any other organization 15 participated with those three and the activities 16 relating to APCO? 17 19 17 09:52:46 Q. How did you first -- did you propose that 20 FPA and ASME with respect to APCO? 19 fashion? 20 09:52:52 21 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 09:55:52 22 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to answer 22 09:55:57 09:56:07 A. I don't recall how these three organizations 21 were the ones that worked together. 09:52:56 09:55:40 09:55:52 18 these three organizations work together in this 09:52:49 09:55:32 09:55:43 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:52:48 Q Who organized the joint effort of ASTM and 23 that I believe it -- 15 activities we'd like to undertake together. 09:52:41 09:52:44 A I do not recall any other organizations 18 participating 09:52:38 09:55:30 09:56:07 09:56:09 24 MR FEE: If you don't know, you don't know 25 THE WITNESS: I don't know Q. Do you recall -- did somebody take the 09:56:15 23 initiative to convene this group with respect to 09:53 01 09:53:02 09:56:22 24 retaining a firm like APCO? 09:53 04 25 09:53:07 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Page 27 09:56:24 09:56:26 Page 29 8 (Pages 26 - 29) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: Right. So I believe we 09:56:29 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:56:33 2 identified the objectives, and I believe the next step 2 3 was to formulate a request for proposal that we wanted 09:56:36 09:58:47 Q Do you recall any interactions with Lorraine 3 Carli of NFPA? 09:58:47 09:58:49 4 to put out to a public affairs firm. 09:56:40 4 A I do recall Lorraine Carli 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:56:46 5 Q With respect to this initiative? 09:56:46 6 MR FEE: Objection Vague 09:56:49 7 THE WITNESS: I believe Lorraine is the vice 6 Q. Who first brought the idea of this activity 7 to the attention of the others within this group? 8 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 09:56:51 9 THE WITNESS: I just don't recall. 09:56:52 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 Q. Was it you? 12 A. I don't think it was me. 13 09:56:54 Q. Was it Megan Housewright? 09:58:52 09:58:53 09:58:55 09:59:00 9 Battery Park, Massachusetts So I do believe she was 10 involved in this now that you mention it 09:56:54 09:58:57 8 president for public affairs and communications in 09:59:06 09:59:09 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:57:02 09:59:12 12 09:56:55 09:59:12 Q How was she involved? 13 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 14 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 09:57:04 14 THE WITNESS: I believe she helped to frame 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know. 09:57:05 15 some of the issues that this informal group would want 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 09:57:12 Q. Do you know on what occasion the idea these 19 about? 20 09:57:28 THE WITNESS: Could you restate the question, 09:59:19 09:59:23 09:59:29 09:59:46 Q Who else provided input for that RFP? 09:59:46 20 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation THE WITNESS: I believe both ASTM and ASME 22 had an opportunity to provide input 23 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:57:33 Q. Do you know on what occasion the idea of 24 09:57:33 25 Page 30 1 these three entities working together came about? 09:57:35 2 MR. FEE: Same objections. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the occasion. 5 09:57:32 09:57:33 09:57:46 09:57:46 Q. Do you recall when the idea of these three 1 Q And did they provide input? 09:59:49 09:59:50 09:59:53 09:59:59 09:59:59 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 10:00:01 Page 32 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 10:00:02 09:57:46 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:00:03 3 Q. Did you provide input? 10:00:03 4 09:57:38 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 09:59:16 21 09:57:30 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 perhaps drafted -- helped to draft the RFP 19 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 23 please? 25 09:57:25 09:57:27 21 speculation. 22 16 to work with the public affairs firm to assist us, and 09:57:12 18 three entities working together in this fashion came 09:59:14 A. I recall that I reviewed it. I don't recall 10:00:04 5 if I commented specifically and requested any changes. 6 entities working together arose? 09:57:49 6 7 A. Right. I believe it was 2011. 09:57:49 7 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 8 Q. When in 2011? 8 THE WITNESS: I probably made our attorney 9 A. I'm sorry. I don't know -- recall the month. 09:57:54 10 Q. Did this activity arise because of concerns 09:58:12 09:57:52 Q. Did anybody else from ASTM review it? 10:00:06 10:00:15 10:00:19 9 aware of and asked for legal counsel advice. 10:00:22 10:00:24 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:00:29 11 Q. Which attorney? 12 incorporation of standards by reference? 09:58:20 12 A. That would be Tom O'Brien, our vice president 13 09:58:21 13 and general counsel. 11 about political policy issues relating to 09:58:16 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 14 speculation. 10:00:29 14 09:58:23 Q. Who's sitting here in the deposition today? THE WITNESS: I don't recall there being one 09:58:25 15 A. Correct. 16 single reason why -- that motivated the formation of 09:58:26 16 10:00:33 Q. Did anybody else at ASTM review it? 15 17 this informal group. 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 Q. Was that a reason? 10:00:35 10:00:40 17 09:58:32 MR. FEE: Same objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. THE WITNESS: It could have been one reason. 09:58:34 09:58:35 20 10:00:44 10:00:49 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:58:32 20 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 18 09:58:30 10:01:12 Q. A few questions ago you said that the 10:01:12 21 representatives of the organizations recognized that 10:01:14 10:01:17 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 09:58:36 22 there was a need to raise a greater awareness about 23 09:58:36 23 the benefits of the U.S. Standards System with our key Q. It could have been or it was? 24 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't recall whether it was. 09:58:38 10:00:30 10:00:32 24 stakeholders in Washington, D.C. and beyond. Whom 25 were you referring to when you referred to "our key 09:58:42 Page 31 10:01:22 10:01:27 10:01:33 Page 33 9 (Pages 30 - 33) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 stakeholders in Washington, D.C."? 10:01:37 1 2 10:01:40 2 this informal group communicated with respect to the MR. FEE: Objection to the extent that it Q And were these all stakeholders with whom 3 isn't an exact quote of what he said. 10:01:40 3 topics for which the group retained APCO? 4 You can answer, if you know. 10:01:43 4 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I believe that our key 10:04:49 10:01:45 6 stakeholders in Washington, D.C., the business 10:01:46 7 community that's active on shaping and forming 10:01:50 8 Washington. So that would include organizations like 9 the National Association of Manufacturers. 10:02:00 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 10:01:57 10:02:11 Q. Who else do you include within the scope of 12 "our key stakeholders in Washington, D.C."? 13 Q. Who else? 15 10:02:14 A. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce. 14 A. Consumer representatives, such as the 10:02:17 10:02:26 10:02:27 17 Q. Who else? 18 10:02:34 A. The U.S. Public Interest Research Group, 19 known as U.S. PIRG. 10:02:36 20 Q. Who else? 21 A. Environmental advocacy groups. To name one, Q. Who else? 24 Q. Who else? Q. Keep going. 4 10:03:12 A. I believe think tanks such as the Brookings Q. Keep going? 10:03:25 Q. Keep going. 9 10:03:35 A. The American Enterprise Institute. 10:03:39 10 Q. Keep going. 10:03:44 11 A. That might close the business and consumer A. Another category, then, would be policy 10:04:01 10:04:03 16 Q. And please list them. 17 A. That could include Congressional staff or the 20 A. That would include executive branch 24 A. I believe that's all I can recall at the 25 moment. 10:05:48 THE WITNESS: In the course of our meetings 10:05:49 10:05:50 24 Standards System, we would be asked questions about 10:05:54 10:06:03 2 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:06:08 Q Who asked those questions? 4 A That could be any of the stakeholders that we 10:06:08 10:06:09 10:06:12 Q I'm asking you to recall any specific source 7 of that question 10:06:12 10:06:14 A I believe during the course of this time, 10:06:22 9 Office of Management and Budget was having a review of 11 about the effectiveness of the U S Standards System 13 10:06:39 10:06:43 10:06:47 10:06:47 18 reason, but what did you, at the time, understand to Q -- you may have been privy to the exact 19 be the reason? 10:04:18 20 22 10:04:32 10:04:42 24 25 10:06:49 10:06:52 10:06:54 10:06:56 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know specifically 23 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:04:44 10:06:47 MR FEE: Objection Compound Calls for 10:04:21 21 speculation Q You have no idea? MR FEE: Same objections Page 35 10:06:28 10:06:37 14 prompted OMB's review? I understand -MR FEE: Objection 10:06:24 10:06:35 Q What did you understand to be the reason that 10:04:12 10:04:23 Q. Yes. 21 speculation 10:05:44 10:05:46 17 21 officials, such as the Office of Management and Budget 23 MR FEE: Objection Vague Calls for 16 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:04:18 22 and specific agencies. 10:05:44 Q When did it become significant, in your view? 10:04:10 18 U.S. House of Representatives, the U.S. Senate. Q. Yes. 10:05:31 10:05:37 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 15 10:04:09 19 10:05:29 16 any legislation or any significant reason to raise 12 and how the Standard System works 10:03:59 15 makers in Washington, D.C. 10:05:28 10 the U S Standards System and asked specific questions 10:03:54 10:03:56 Q. Keep going with more stakeholders. 14 10:05:27 15 corporation by reference I don't believe there was 8 10:03:39 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that in 2011 a 6 10:03:36 12 groups stakeholder category. MR FEE: Same objection 5 interacted with A. The Council for Competitiveness. 8 13 3 10:03:28 7 10:05:18 10:05:25 1 their funding model 10:03:13 10:03:17 6 12 reference with? 10:03:04 25 how organizations like ASTM and FPA and ASME sustained 10:05:57 Page 34 Page 36 A. The Transportation Resource Board. 3 10:05:15 23 and raising a greater awareness about the U S 10:03:03 25 tanks, such as the National Academies of Science. 5 Institute. 10:02:47 10:02:59 2 10:05:15 Q Is this the same audience you would wish to 11 raise the policy issues surrounding incorporation by 22 A. Important research organizations and think 1 10:05:12 9 BY MR BRIDGES: 20 10:02:52 10:05:07 10:05:07 8 importance of the U S Standards System 19 10:02:40 23 THE WITNESS: Generally, this would be the 7 audience that we'd be trying to inform about the 17 IBR 10:02:40 22 Friend of the Earth. 10:05:02 10:05:04 14 10:02:24 16 Consumer Federation of America. 6 10 10:02:11 MR FEE: Objection Vague Calls for 5 speculation 10:04:51 10:04:57 10:06:56 10:06:59 10:06:59 10:07:00 Page 37 10 (Pages 34 - 37) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: Right I believe it hadn't 1 10:07:01 2 been revised in 10 years The OMB circular, which 3 provides key important information for federal Q. Did ASTM have any written communications 2 with -- strike that. 10:07:02 3 10:07:07 10:10:03 10:10:11 Did ASTM have written communications 10:10:18 4 agencies, informing them that they should work with 10:07:10 4 regarding public resource regarding Carl Malamud or 5 voluntary consensus standards organizations and use 10:07:11 5 regarding incorporation by reference with any of the 6 voluntary consensus standards to the extent that it's 8 had not been revised for a period of 10 years So 12 14 10:07:29 16 A I'm not -- 10:11:04 10:11:09 16 like ours maintain our independence and keep barriers 10:07:40 17 to participation low by providing our standards, 18 MR FEE: Let me object 19 Objection Calls for speculation 20 10:11:11 10:11:16 18 making them widely available at a very reasonable and 10:07:43 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have any, why OMB 19 flexible basis. 10:07:44 10:07:47 10:11:19 Q. What were the materials that were 22 distributed? 10:08:09 10:11:19 10:11:19 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 21 10:07:55 22 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:11:01 15 enterprise, and the process by which organizations 10:07:42 21 conducted their review 10:10:59 14 System, the independence of our standards development 10:07:40 Q -- OMB was -- 17 10:10:55 10:10:57 13 that discussed the benefits of the U.S. Standards 10:07:38 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:10:54 THE WITNESS: I believe we produced some 12 stakeholders, including the groups that you mentioned, 10:07:33 10:07:35 MR FEE: Objection 10 11 materials which were distributed broadly to our 10:07:33 13 apart from general updating -- 10:10:53 MR. FEE: Objection. Compound. Calls for 9 speculation. 10:07:24 Q And you have no idea of any particular reason 10:10:36 8 10:07:21 9 there was a fresh look in the new administration, the 10:10:30 7 groups, Friends of the Earth, Brookings Institute? 10:07:16 10 Obama administration which had come to Washington 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 6 following: Consumer Federation, U.S. public interest 10:07:13 7 relevant to their mission That specific OMB circular 10:10:21 10:10:26 10:11:24 10:11:26 23 MR. FEE: Same objections. 24 with its key stakeholders in Washington, D C ? 10:08:18 24 THE WITNESS: One-pager or two-pager of 25 10:08:23 25 printed materials. 23 Q When did ASTM start discussing Carl Malamud MR FEE: Objection Foundation Vague 10:08:09 10:11:27 10:11:31 10:11:33 Page 38 1 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to give you 2 the exact date, but I believe it was 2012 4 10:08:29 MR FEE: Objection Vague 7 THE WITNESS: I believe there was an event MR FEE: Objection Vague 17 10:12:05 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to answer. 10:12:08 10:12:09 Q. I don't mean how many copies were circulated. 10:12:09 10:12:11 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:09:26 22 Malamud with its key stakeholders in Washington, D C ? 24 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm familiar with more 19 than two. 21 10 09:31 MR FEE: Same objections MR. FEE: Objection to form. 18 10:09:26 23 10:12:18 17 10:09:18 Q That wasn't exactly an answer to my question 10:12:15 16 generate for use with the key stakeholders? 10:09:19 21 Is that the first time that ASTM discussed Carl 25 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:11:55 10:12:02 15 either alone or with these other organizations, THE WITNESS: That's when I recall the 20 10:11:51 Q. How many distinct literature pieces were 14 I mean how many different literature pieces did ASTM, 10:09:12 10:09:16 18 Washington office becoming aware of it 19 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:11:43 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 13 10:08:59 10:09:16 16 8 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:08:57 14 Carl Malamud with its key stakeholders in Washington, 15 D C ? A. A literature piece. Just a one-pager that 11 10:08:57 Is that the first time that ASTM discussed 10:11:42 10 10:08:51 Q Is that the first awareness -- strike that Q. They're called what? 9 distributed? 10:08:48 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 13 10:08:42 10:11:38 10:11:40 7 you prepare that discusses your relevance. 10:08:40 8 where there was a number of ASTM copyrighted standards 10 Washington, D C 4 called "lit pieces." 6 10:08:39 9 which were provided to various officials in 10:11:35 A. In Washington speak, I believe they're just 5 10:08:36 6 Q. Exactly what were they? 3 Q What caused ASTM to discuss Carl Malamud with 10:11:35 2 10:08:29 5 its key stakeholders in Washington, D C ? 12 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:08:25 10:08:26 3 BY MR BRIDGES: Page 40 10:09:35 22 Q. How many? 24 10:09:41 25 10:10:03 Q. How many? MR. FEE: Objection. Page 39 10:12:25 10:12:27 10:12:28 10:12:28 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:09:40 10:12:24 10:12:29 10:12:33 10:12:33 10:12:34 Page 41 11 (Pages 38 - 41) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: I don't have an exact number. 10:12:35 1 to APCO? 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:12:36 2 3 10:12:36 10:15:09 3 answered. Q. What's your best estimate? 4 MR. FEE: Objection. 5 I instruct you not to speculate. If you have 10:12:37 4 10:12:38 6 an estimate beyond what you've said, then you can go 7 ahead and give it. 8 10:15:14 10:15:15 Q. What other public relations or government 9 reference? 10:12:46 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: No other public affairs firms MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 10:12:48 11 12 THE WITNESS: It would be an iterative 10:12:50 10:15:38 12 or other firms that I'm aware of for this type of 13 process. Our public affairs firm would be informed by 10:12:52 14 the interests and comments that we would make to help 15 shape them to reflect more accurately the operations 18 10:13:01 Q. Are you saying that only the public affairs 10:13:08 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Compound. 21 22 this APCO related effort. 24 10:13:17 10:13:19 10:13:20 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 firm you just referred to. 10:15:52 Q. What other -- strike that. 10:15:52 Did ASTM engage, during the same period of 10:16:01 10:16:08 18 other types of public relations from the period 2011 10:16:15 10:16:20 20 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 21 MR. BRIDGES: I'm going to change the 10:16:21 10:16:24 22 question because it's inconsistent. 10:13:22 10:13:23 10:16:25 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:13:20 Q. I'm referring to whatever public relations 10:15:48 19 to today? THE WITNESS: I believe you're asking about 10:15:41 10:15:44 17 time, any public relations firms to engage in any 10:13:12 20 15 16 10:13:08 19 firm drafted those pieces? 13 activity. 10:12:56 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:13:05 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:15:18 10:15:31 10:15:37 10 11 16 of our organizations. 10:15:15 8 work related in any way to standards incorporated by 10:12:46 Q. Who drafted them? THE WITNESS: No further information. 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 10:15:10 10:15:13 7 relations firm -- firms did ASTM work with where the 10:12:46 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 10:12:42 10:12:44 THE WITNESS: I'd say three. MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Asked and 10:16:38 24 Q. What other public relations firms has ASTM 25 retained since 2011 to today? 10:16:39 10:16:45 Page 42 1 1 A Yes 2 Q No one else, to your knowledge, drafted the 10:13:25 3 literature pieces you referred to? MR FEE: Objection Vague Compound 5 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I would -- so I'm not 6 10 that were provided Who, to your knowledge, provided MR. FEE: Hold on. Let me also make sure you 8 taken at the direction of counsel in connection with 10:13:49 9 firm would be informed by the information and comments 10:13:53 9 this matter. 10 10:14:00 10:14:06 12 litigation. 13 Q Anybody else from ASTM? 10:14:10 10:17:10 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15 THE WITNESS: No I think I was the person 17 materials 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 19 21 10:17:23 10:17:28 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. By "outreach," 18 publicly available? 10:14:28 10:17:31 20 10:14:31 10:17:40 Q. I mean outreach meaning communications 10:17:40 21 outside of ASTM and outside the plaintiffs in this 10:14:35 10:14:37 22 case. 23 believe the billings were between $15- to $20,000 per 10:14:45 23 10:17:43 10:17:46 MR. FEE: Okay. Well, I will instruct you 10:17:47 24 not to answer to the extent those communications are 10:14:49 Q Any further information on how much ASTM paid 10:17:34 10:17:38 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 22 period of between 12 months and 18 months, and I 25 10:17:23 17 are you saying not at the direction of counsel and 10:14:28 24 month divided by the three organizations equally 10:17:12 Q. What public relations outreach has ASTM 16 10:14:19 10:14:27 A So I believe that we engaged APCO for a 10:17:10 10:17:16 15 engaged in relating to the litigation? 10:14:16 Q How much did ASTM pay to APCO in the course 20 of the engagement? 14 10:14:13 16 that directly commented for ASTM on those types of 10:17:01 11 would have been between -- would have involved 10:14:05 A For ASTM, that would be me MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 10:16:59 10:17:05 THE WITNESS: Right. So any other activity 12 14 10:16:50 10:16:54 7 don't disclose any communications or actions that were 10:13:46 11 the information and comments? 10:16:48 5 involved in the litigation directly, but -- 10:13:46 8 was an iterative process and that the public affairs 10:16:46 But to the extent you know, you can answer. 4 10:13:36 Q Was the public affairs firm -- you said it 10:16:45 3 10:13:38 6 BY MR BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 2 This is clearly outside the scope of his designation. 10:13:25 10:13:34 4 Page 44 10:15:05 25 not publicly made available and at the direction of Page 43 10:17:48 10:17:50 Page 45 12 (Pages 42 - 45) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 counsel 2 10:17:52 1 outside the plaintiffs in this case and their counsel, MR BRIDGES: Now, I want to be very clear 10:17:54 3 what we mean "publicly made available " In my view, 4 it's fair game for me to get an answer regarding any 10:17:56 6 MR FEE: Yeah That's fair Why don't I go 9 11 10:17 8 or its counsel 10:18:12 10:18:18 10:26:54 13 to 10:26 a m ) 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record 10:29:05 THE WITNESS: Okay I recall that in August 10 of 2013 I was invited to be on a panel by the 10:29:22 10:29:23 10:26:55 Q There was a pending question, I think, when 10:29:33 14 was asked and questioned about the status of the 15 lawsuit 10:27:04 10:29:41 10:29:46 16 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:29:52 10:27:04 17 Q What else? 10:27:06 18 we broke The question I had was what public 10:29:26 10:29:28 13 representatives Washington-related topics in which I 10:26:54 10:29:52 18 A I recall that on two occasions in 2013, while 19 relations outreach was ASTM engaged in relating to the 10:27:12 20 litigation And by "outreach," I mean communications 10:27:16 10:29:54 19 serving on the National Policy Committee of ANSI, 20 American National Standards Institute, there were 21 with persons outside ASTM and outside the plaintiff 22 group in this case 10:27:19 21 questions about the lawsuit, and again, I gave an 10:27:23 22 update as to the status of the lawsuit 10:29:59 10:30:03 10:30:08 10:30:15 23 MR FEE: Okay I would object 10:27:27 23 Q What else? 24 And instruct you not to disclose any 10:27:29 24 A That's all that I specifically recall 25 Q So you recall only instances where ASTM was 25 communications made at the direction of counsel that 10:27:31 10:29:09 10:29:12 12 discuss relevant topics with a number of other 10:26:54 16 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:28:58 10:29:02 11 Standards Engineering Society in Ottawa, Canada, to (A recess was taken from 10:17 a m 17 9 10:18:15 12 15 at 10:26 a m 5 lines except communications at the direction of 7 than the person receiving the communication from ASTM 10:18:10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record at 10:28:54 10:28:57 6 counsel that were not made publicly to persons other 10:18:07 MR BRIDGES: Okay We'll go off the record 10 MR FEE: My instruction with respect to that 4 is you could disclose any communications along those 10:18:02 10:18:05 7 outside I'm going to discuss this with him and see 8 if there's really anything to worry about 3 10:17:59 5 communication that was not a privileged communication 10:28:48 2 I would like to know what those communications were 10:30:21 10:30:23 10:30:26 Page 46 Page 48 1 were not disseminated to the public generally. 10:27:34 1 responding to questions from others? 2 10:27:36 2 MR. BRIDGES: Okay. I think that's an 3 improper instruction because if a statement was made 10:27:37 4 to the public -- I'm not asking why it was made to the 5 public. I'm not asking for legal discussions that 10:27:41 10:27:45 10:30:30 MR. FEE: Same instruction, of course, with 3 respect to privilege. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 That's correct. 6 were made about what to make to the public -- 10:27:48 10:27:54 7 10:30:44 10:30:44 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 MR. FEE: And we're not disagreeing with 8 that. 9 10 10:27:54 But if a statement was made to the public, 10:28:02 12 of counsel or not. If it was to people outside the 10:28:04 10:28:07 MR. FEE: You're arguing with me about If a statement was made to the public that's 17 responsive to that, feel free to answer it. 18 19 question. 20 10:28:12 10:28:14 10:28:14 MR. BRIDGES: No. No. That's not my 9 topics" without being requested to do so? 10 10:30:45 11 topics." 12 10:28:16 10:28:17 14 10:31:02 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 10:31:07 10:31:11 Q. You said that you were invited to a panel by 17 the "relevant topics" you were referring to in that 18 answer? A. Yeah. I believe my comments on my panel 10:28:17 20 involved an update on funding for the National 10:28:22 21 Institute of Standards and Technology, an update that 24 10:28:33 If ASTM caused any communication to be made 25 or engaged in any communication to persons or entities 10:31:12 10:31:17 10:31:21 10:31:23 My question is if a statement was made to any 23 what -- strike that. 10:31:11 16 relevant topics with other representatives. What were 21 person or entity outside the plaintiff's group and the 10:28:27 10:31:00 15 the Standards Engineering Society where you discussed 19 22 plaintiff's group counsel, then I would like to know 10:30:49 10:30:55 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague as to "relevant 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:28:10 15 something I'm not instructing him to refuse to answer. 16 10:27:56 10:28:00 11 I'm entitled to know whether it was at the direction 14 10:30:45 Q. You don't recall any instance where ASTM 8 initiated a communication on what you call "relevant MR. BRIDGES: Let me make my record, please. 13 plaintiff group, I'm entitled to know. 10:30:40 10:30:43 22 the Office of Management and Budget was still 23 preparing to revise their circular, but it hadn't come 10:28:35 24 out yet. That there may have been other actions of 10:28:43 25 interest to the standards community. I believe the Page 47 10:31:24 10:31:28 10:31:35 10:31:36 10:31:41 10:31:45 10:31:51 Page 49 13 (Pages 46 - 49) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 A. On the panel that I was a panelist with was 10:34:29 1 National Archives and Records Administration, Office 10:31:55 1 2 of Federal Register had come out with some additional 10:31:59 2 the American National Standards Institute. Someone 3 findings and information. 4 10:32:02 So those are the other kinds of things that I 5 reported on. 10:32:04 10:32:08 10:34:32 4 Myself. And I'd be speculating to name the other 10:34:37 5 person. And Doug Morton was the moderator 6 Q. What else apart from those? 10:32:09 7 A. Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership. 6 participant. 10:32:18 8 The U.S. Free Trade Agreement that's being negotiated 9 with the European commission is of key interest to 10 standards developers. 10:32:20 10:32:24 10:32:28 7 9 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 10 THE WITNESS: I do not. Q. And you consider that to be a relevant topic? 10:32:38 10:32:40 12 10:32:41 13 was from? A. I do not. 10:32:45 15 Q. Who is on the policy committee of ANSI? 19 21 23 10:33:06 10:33:07 MR. BRIDGES: Well, my question was 25 this litigation. THE WITNESS: It's currently chaired by 10:35:28 19 Sharon Stanford from the American Dental Association 22 10:35:35 Q. Is she the only person on the committee? I 10:33:08 23 asked who was on the committee. 24 10:33:13 10:35:35 10:35:37 A. In addition, myself. There's a 10:35:39 25 representative from the Underwriters Laboratories. 10:35:43 Page 52 Page 50 1 MR. FEE: And he said that he testified about 10:33:15 2 numerous relevant topics at a presentation. He didn't 3 say that they were relevant to this litigation. They 4 were relevant to the presentation. 5 9 10:33:35 12 and I provided it. 10:33:47 Q. Who asked you for the update? 15 A. I believe one of the -- the moderator or the 17 Q. Who is that? 18 10:33:56 A. He's with the Canadian standards 10:34:04 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Who are the "other representatives" you're 25 referring to? (Deposition Exhibit 1022 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, I'd ask you to look 9 10:34:10 10:34:16 10:36:41 10:36:41 11 deposition today? 10:36:46 Q. Which of these topics are you prepared to 14 testify on? 15 10:34:21 10:36:56 10:36:57 10:36:59 MR. FEE: I'll answer that question. He's 10:37:03 16 our designee with respect to all the topics except for 10:37:15 Q. Do you adopt your counsel's response? 10:37:15 MR. FEE: Counsel, could you repeat which 21 sections I'm not responding -- 24 10:37:04 10:37:08 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 20 10:36:49 10:36:55 A. Yes, I do. 10:37:18 10:37:20 MR. FEE: 2, 3, and 24, I believe are the 23 ones. 10:34:24 10:36:41 10:36:44 Q. Do you recognize this as an amended 22 10:34:21 10:36:41 10:36:41 10 deposition notice with topics for examination for your 19 10:34:21 23 5 17 Topics 2, 3, and 24. 10:34:08 Q. And in referring to that Canadian meeting, 22 answer. 10:34:01 10:34:04 21 you also mentioned "other representatives" in your THE WITNESS: I said 25 to 30. 13 10:33:54 16 session chair for the panel that I was presenting on. REPORTER MARTIN: 35 to -- how many? 12 10:33:54 14 20 10:33:44 10:33:52 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:35:52 3 8 at Exhibit 1022. 10:33:42 11 asked for an update about the status of the lawsuit, 19 organization. Doug Morton. 10:33:24 10:33:30 THE WITNESS: As I previously stated, I was 10:35:49 2 probably 25 to 30 voting members. 4 10:33:28 Q. So what discussions at the Canada meeting MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 1 There's actually many representatives. There's 6 MR. BRIDGES: Well, my question was about 8 related to this litigation? 10 10:33:22 10:33:24 6 relating to this litigation. 7 10:33:16 10:35:31 10:35:35 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:33:10 24 originally about public relations outreach relating to 10:35:17 10:35:19 20 in Chicago, Illinois. MR. FEE: Objection. Mischaracterizes his 10:35:14 MR. FEE: Objection. Foundation. Calls for 18 10:32:55 10:33:06 22 previous testimony. 10:35:02 17 speculation. Vague as to time. 10:32:54 Q. That's a relevant topic with respect to this 20 case? 10:32:50 16 10:32:53 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:34:58 10:35:00 14 16 trade agreement, which many standards developers are 17 quite concerned about. 10:34:58 Q. Do you recall what organization that person 10:32:42 15 standards technical barriers to trade chapter to the 10:34:56 10:34:57 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Vague as to "relevant THE WITNESS: I do because there's a 10:34:51 10:34:52 12 14 10:34:45 10:34:47 Q. You have no memory of who that other person 8 was? 11 13 topic." 10:34:30 3 from their New York office. I don't recall her name. 10:37:22 10:37:25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 51 10:37:33 10:37:34 Page 53 14 (Pages 50 - 53) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Q Who at ASTM has the most information about 2 questions of copyright -- strike that 3 6 copyrights in their work to ASTM? 4 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 10:40:52 10:40:55 6 10:38:18 You can answer if you know. 7 10:38:14 THE WITNESS: Our membership department 10:40:58 10:41:00 8 reports to our vice president for Technical Committee 10:38:18 MR BRIDGES: I'm asking him, and he can 10:40:38 10:40:45 10:40:51 5 Outside the scope of his designation. 10:38:06 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 8 It's beyond the scope of his designation 9 3 membership applications? 10:37:49 10:37:52 5 participants in the standards writing process transfer Q. What person who have that membership function 2 would have most information about the receiving of Who at ASTM do you understand have the most 4 information about the efforts by ASTM to have 7 1 10:37:34 10:37:39 9 Operations, Daniel Smith. 10:38:23 10:41:02 10:41:05 10 answer based on his personal knowledge 10:38:25 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 10:38:27 11 10:38:28 12 membership department who reports to him? 10:41:16 13 10:41:19 MR FEE: Calls for a legal conclusion to the 12 extent it implies that an assignment is required 13 You can answer if you know 14 THE WITNESS: General counsel for ASTM would 10:38:32 15 be responsible for that MR FEE: Same objection THE WITNESS: I guess I wouldn't know 20 specifically 22 23 25 10:41:23 10:41:33 Q. Who within the membership department has most 21 renewals? 22 10:38:52 MR FEE: Objection Vague Calls for MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 23 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 10:38:53 10:41:45 THE WITNESS: That, I wouldn't know. 25 10:38:59 1 well known amongst staff. So it wouldn't surprise me 10:39:01 2 if many members of the ASTM staff are very familiar 3 with the copyright policies that are part of our 10:39:05 10:39:10 4 standards development at enterprise. (Deposition Exhibit 1023 was marked for 10:41:50 10:42:39 Page 56 identification.) 2 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, I've handed you 3 Exhibit 1023. 10:42:39 10:42:39 10:42:42 Q. Do you recognize this as a copy of ASTM's 10:42:43 5 Form 990 filed with the Internal Revenue Service? 10:39:20 Q. I'm not asking, actually, about copyright 1 4 10:39:18 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:41:37 10:41:48 24 10:38:55 THE WITNESS: Our copyright policy is very 10:39:20 10:42:45 6 10:42:52 MR. FEE: Take a look at the document before 7 policies. I'm asking about actual actions of persons 10:39:23 7 you answer that question. 8 who contribute to the writing of standards to assign 10:39:30 8 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1024.) 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it appears to be our 990 9 their rights to ASTM. 10 MR. FEE: Objection. 10:39:37 13 10 forms. 10:39:39 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 10:39:39 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 10:39:40 identification.) 13 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, I've handed you 14 Exhibit 1024. 15 10:39:46 15 Q. Who is in charge of receiving and acting on 18 membership applications? 19 20 Beyond the scope of his designation. 21 10:40:17 22 at ASTM where there are staff that work closely with 23 our Technical Committee Operations that would be most A. Yes, it appears to be an E-mail. Q. Who is Mr. Thomas? 19 A. In this instance, Jim Thomas is the president 10:40:25 21 10:40:26 22 10:40:33 23 10:44:39 10:44:42 10:44:44 10:44:46 (Deposition Exhibit 1025 was marked for identification.) 10:44:17 10:44:19 17 20 of ASTM International. 10:40:20 THE WITNESS: We have a membership function 10:44:14 10:44:16 18 10:40:04 10:40:14 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 10:44:02 10:44:02 Q. This is an E-mail exchange between you and 16 James Thomas; correct? 10:40:04 10:43:36 10:43:42 (Deposition Exhibit 1024 was marked for 10:39:41 17 10:43:36 12 14 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. THE WITNESS: I'm not able to answer that. 10:42:54 11 10:39:39 Q. Who would have knowledge of that? 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:41:33 10:41:44 Page 54 6 10:41:26 10:41:28 20 knowledge about the receipt by ASTM of membership 10:38:52 24 speculation Asked and answered THE WITNESS: Ileane Smith who is not -- no 19 10:38:48 10:38:50 Q Would you know generally? You can answer if you know. 17 relation, to my knowledge. 10:38:43 10:38:45 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 10:41:21 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q Who else would have knowledge of those facts? 19 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 14 designation. 16 10:38:43 18 10:41:13 15 10:38:42 16 BY MR BRIDGES: 17 10:38:39 10:41:13 Q. And who is the senior most person in the 10:44:48 10:45:11 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove. I've handed you 24 familiar with membership. 10:40:36 24 Exhibit 1025. 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:40:38 25 10:45:13 Q. Is this a copy of the comments that ASTM made Page 55 10:45:11 10:45:14 Page 57 15 (Pages 54 - 57) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 to OMB in connection with the OMB activities you 2 described earlier in your testimony? 3 10:45:19 10:45:23 MR. FEE: Please read that carefully before 4 you answer the question. 10:45:29 10:45:31 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1025.) 7 THE WITNESS: It appears to be, yes. 8 (Deposition Exhibit 1026 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 12 10:45:55 10:46:18 10:46:18 10:46:20 A. At the time of this E-mail, Dan Smith was the 10:48:42 10:48:46 6 associate vice president for Technical Committee 10:48:50 7 Operations and Kate McClung's supervisor. 10:48:53 8 Q. What is Mr. Smith's role now? 10:48:57 A. He's been promoted to be vice president of 10:49:00 10 TCO, Technical Committee Operations. 10:49:08 11 Q. To whom does he report? 12 A. He reports to our executive vice president, 10:46:33 13 and Sarah Petre, and also, Kate McClung; is that 10:48:34 Q. Who is Dan Smith? 10:46:21 Q. This is an exchange of E-mails between you 10:48:31 10:48:39 9 10:46:18 13 Katherine Morgan. 10:46:36 10:49:08 10:49:10 10:49:15 14 15 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1026 for 16 identification.) 10:46:36 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's an E-mail exchange 10:47:14 Q. And who is Anthony Quinn? 15 A. Anthony Quinn works in the Washington office. 10:49:20 16 His title is director of public policy, international 17 trade. 10:47:15 18 Q. Does he report to you? 19 A. He does. 20 Q. Who else reports to you? 21 A. At ASTM I'm responsible for -- in addition to 10:47:17 10:49:32 10:49:32 10:49:33 20 Q. Sarah Petre recently left ASTM; correct? 21 A. She did, correct. 22 Q. How recently did she leave? 10:47:22 22 the Washington office, I'm responsible for corporate 23 A. February 11 was her last date. 10:47:24 23 communications. So we have a team of five people at 24 Q. And what was her job title at ASTM? 10:47:26 25 A. Her final title at ASTM was regulatory 10:47:30 25 report to me, and that's it for direct reports of ASTM Page 58 1 counsel. 2 10:47:22 10:47:35 10:47:35 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 6 10:47:39 10:47:41 THE WITNESS: I'd have to consult with our 10:47:45 7 attorney to see what functions, if any, she was 10:47:47 8 providing in the form of an attorney. 10:47:51 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 12 the organization, or is it a government affairs 13 representative? 14 15 conclusion. 10:48:04 10:48:05 10:49:44 4 Q. Do any outside vendors report to you 5 directly? 10:49:59 10:50:03 10:50:05 6 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 7 THE WITNESS: Not that I can think of. No, 10 10:50:06 10:50:15 10:50:16 10:50:17 Q. Do any outside consultants report to you 11 directly? 10:49:48 10:49:52 Page 60 10:50:17 10:50:19 12 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I did forget one. 10:50:20 10:50:21 14 We do -- I have a consultant that reports to me in 10:50:23 15 Brussels. We have an office of -- office of European 10:48:06 Q. I'm asking for your understanding. 16 affairs in Brussels, Belgium. 10:48:06 18 MR. FEE: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: She was providing analysis of 10:50:26 10:50:29 10:48:14 10:48:15 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:50:33 18 10:48:09 20 rules and regulations to help inform our decision 21 making. So... 10:49:42 10:50:02 13 10:48:03 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 10:47:57 10:48:00 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal A. That's correct. 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:47:55 11 to your understanding, functioning as an attorney for Q. Sarah Petre used to report to you directly? 8 they do not. 10:47:55 Q. Insofar as you interacted with her, was she, 10:49:39 10:49:58 2 3 10:47:37 5 Beyond the scope of his designation. 10:49:36 24 our headquarters in Conshohocken, Pennsylvania that 1 employees. Q. Was she functioning as an attorney or as a 3 government affairs person? 4 10:47:17 10:49:24 10:49:26 10:47:14 18 between myself and Sarah and Kate McClung. 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 Operations division. 5 10:45:55 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, I've handed you 14 correct? A. Kate McClung is a staff manager for technical 4 10:45:32 11 Exhibit 1026. 1 2 committees within ASTM's Technical Committee Q. And who is that person? 10:50:33 19 A. Her name is Sara Gobbi, G-o-b-b-i. 10:50:34 20 (Deposition Exhibit 1027 was marked for 21 10:48:21 identification.) MR. BRIDGES: I'm handing you Exhibit 1027. 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:48:26 22 23 Q. Does she report to you? 10:48:27 23 I'd ask you if you've seen that before. 24 A. She does, correct. 25 Q. Who is Kate McClung? 10:48:27 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1027.) 25 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if I've seen Page 59 10:51:21 10:51:23 24 10:48:28 10:50:36 10:51:20 10:51:35 10:52:05 Page 61 16 (Pages 58 - 61) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 this before. 10:52:06 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 1 Q. In your capacity as a representative of ASTM, 4 is it your understanding that this document is a 10:52:07 10:52:11 5 response by Mr. Thomas, whom you identified earlier, 10:52:15 6 to communication from a Boeing representative? 7 10:52:18 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 10:52:21 8 He is not designated as to this document. 9 10:52:24 But you can answer if you have an answer in 10 the capacity individually. 11 10:52:28 10:52:30 10:52:32 12 many roles in the standards community. So I'm not 10:52:35 10:52:38 14 written to Jim Thomas, but Laura is involved in a 10:52:42 15 number of different standards organizations. 10:52:49 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 10:52:55 18 response. Does this response in Exhibit 1027 appear 10:52:58 19 consistent with your understanding of views that ASTM 20 or Mr. Thomas had at about the time of this -- strike 21 that. 22 3 Q What is it? 4 A It is an E-mail from Anthony Quinn to myself 10:56:15 5 and Jim Thomas 6 8 Q What was the ACUS chambered event that is 10:53:08 10:53:14 23 consistent with communications that ASTM had outside 24 the organization at approximately the time of this 10:56:16 10:56:24 A Well, I believe the ACUS is the 10:56:25 9 administrative council of the United States In 10:56:28 11 event highlighting some of the recommendations and 13 in 2011 on incorporation by reference and 10:56:46 15 (Deposition Exhibit 1029 was marked for identification ) 17 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, Exhibit 1029 is an 10:56:52 10:56:52 10:53:16 23 10:53:23 10:53:26 10:58:03 18 E-mail that is produced to us by ASTM, and you're 22 10:58 06 10:58:16 Q Is it correct this is an E-mail from Maureen A Yes, it appears to be 10:58:18 10:58:21 10:58:30 Q She was forwarding an E-mail from Jonathan 10:58:31 24 Gregory of APCO worldwide; is that correct? 25 10:56:37 10:56:40 14 international regulatory cooperation 20 10:56:31 10:56:33 12 discussing the recommendations that came out of ACUS 21 Brodoff at NFPA to you and others? Does this response in Exhibit -27 appear 10:56:16 10:56:16 7 mentioned in the E-mail? 10:53:03 19 copied on it, it appears 10:53:13 25 E-mail? 10:56:14 10:56:15 16 10:52:55 Q. I'm wanting to focus on Mr. Thomas's A I do, yes 10 working with the U S Chamber of Commerce, they had an THE WITNESS: Right. Laura Hitchcock serves 13 certain as to what capacity this E-mail is being Q Do you recognize this document? 2 10:52:07 10:58:34 MR FEE: Did you say this was directed to 10:58:38 Page 62 1 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 10:53:27 2 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. 3 10:53:28 THE WITNESS: This may be the first time that 4 I became aware of who Carl Malamud is. 10:53:40 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:53:47 6 Q. This E-mail may be? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know if she got bcc'd on this? 9 A. I do not believe -- I do not believe that I 10 was, no. 11 10:53:47 10:53:50 10:53:53 10:53:58 10:54:00 14 and I'm thinking of the event that this E-mail 10:54:01 10:54:04 19 10:54:58 20 MR. FEE: Take your time to read it. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1028.) 23 10:55:00 THE WITNESS: Would you please repeat the 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10:58:47 10:58:49 THE WITNESS: It appears that there is 10:58:50 10:58:51 10:58:53 8 BY MR BRIDGES: 9 10:58:54 Q Does this relate to the efforts that ASTM and 11 APCO? 10:58:54 12 MR FEE: Objection Vague Calls for 13 speculation 14 10:55:05 10:55:07 10:59:03 10:59:06 THE WITNESS: Yes It appears to be an 10:59:08 10:59:11 16 (Deposition Exhibit 1030 was marked for identification ) 11:00:56 MR BRIDGES: I'll hand you Exhibit 1030 11 00:56 11:00:56 19 which is produced to us by ASTM in this litigation 11:01:00 20 This appears to be a letter from ASME regarding the 21 OMB process that you described earlier in your 10:56:08 10:56:08 10:56:12 22 testimony 23 24 10:56:14 11:01:06 11:01:14 11:01:17 Q Is that your understanding? MR FEE: Objection Vague Calls for 11:01:18 11:01:19 25 speculation It's beyond the scope of his designation Page 63 10:58:58 10:59:02 18 10:55:00 Q. Mr. Grove, do you recognize this document? 24 question now that I've reviewed it. 4 apologies 10:58:46 17 10:54:58 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR FEE: Oh, I'm sorry I missed it My 15 agenda for a conference call (Deposition Exhibit 1028 was marked for identification.) 3 10 FPA and ASME were engaged in together with respect to 10:53:56 A. Well, we were referring to the E-mail here, 17 MR BRIDGES: Yes, I did 6 something from Jonathan Gregory that's being 10:53:55 16 10:58:44 2 7 forwarded, yes Q. Then how would this be the first time you 15 pertains to. 1 Jeff Grove? 5 10:53:49 12 became aware of Carl Malamud? 13 10:53:36 Page 64 11:01:21 Page 65 17 (Pages 62 - 65) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 He wasn't designated to describe ASME documents 2 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1030 ) 3 THE WITNESS: It appears there's a response 14 16 A. Correct. 11:05:16 Q. And you're the "Jeff" that's referred to 11:05:18 11:05:22 11:05:42 11:05:44 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I don't see that. 11:05:49 12 Can I -- 11:02:09 11:05:50 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:02:11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall sharing drafts 11:05:51 14 11 02:15 A. First paragraph? 16 11:02:15 Q. First paragraph of Exhibit 1031. 15 11:02:14 Q You don't have any recollection of that? MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation Q. Right. Last sentence. "Brian and Jeff did a 17 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 11:02:17 18 THE WITNESS: I don't recall sharing drafts 11:02:24 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Are you that Jeff that -- 20 11:05:51 11:05:55 17 great job with the exercise." A. I would be that Jeff. 19 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:02:29 20 Q Do you recall seeing this letter before? 21 11:02:29 A I know I read a number of submissions by 21 11:02:31 22 various organizations as it's a topic I'm very 11:06:00 11:06:02 11:06:03 MR. FEE: Objection. Same objection. 11:02:35 23 24 before I don't believe this is a draft This is 11:02:38 11:06:04 11:06:05 24 Brian? 25 11:02:48 11:05:56 11:05:58 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 02:33 23 interested in So it's quite likely I've read this 25 their submission 11:05:19 10 11:02:05 11:02:09 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:05:13 Q. You were at that meeting; correct? 9 the first paragraph for Ms. McKiel? 11:02:00 13 Calls for speculation 4 senior staff of ASTM. 11:05:11 8 in -- I've lost where it is. In the last sentence of 11:01:56 10 respective letters to OMB regarding the OMB circular; 12 A. The board of ASTM international, and the 7 11:01:55 Q And it is correct that ASTM, NFPA, and ASME 9 shared with each other their drafts of their 11:05:09 5 11:01:54 11:01:55 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 11 is that right? 3 11 01:50 Q. Which board? 6 5 participation in the development and use of voluntary 6 consents of standards 11:05:09 2 11:01:49 4 by ASME to various questions posed by OMB on federal 8 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:01:42 11:01:48 Q. And you did an exercise with someone named A. We did. We put the board through a branding Page 66 1 Q That's right Do you recall this as being 2 their submission? 3 11:02:48 11:02:51 THE WITNESS: It appears to be their 6 submission identification ) 9 MR BRIDGES: I've handed you Exhibit 1031 11:03:54 11:03:59 13 Q Have you seen this document before? 14 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1031 ) 15 11:04:10 14 11:04:36 15 11:04:39 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation Q If any A We've launched a new brand as of October 1 of 11:07:25 19 last year We've got a new tag line and a new logo, 11:04:43 20 which just is a -- is a -- it's an evolution over time 11:04:46 21 of ASTM's mission 11:04:49 22 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 11:04:56 23 ASTM's mission 24 THE WITNESS: I believe it's referring to a 11:04:58 24 11:05:01 11:07:38 11:07:49 11:07:51 11:07:53 A Well, so our core purpose is helping our 25 world work better because we believe that's an Page 67 11 07:27 11:07:31 Q Please describe that evolution over time of 23 25 senior staff executive committee of the board retreat 11:07:23 11:07:25 18 11:04:41 11:06:59 11:07:06 11:07:17 17 11:04:39 11 06:56 11:07:12 Q What steps has ASTM taken to do that? 16 BY MR BRIDGES: Q This is not one of the documents you reviewed 22 referred to in the document? 11 idea of updating or refreshing ASTM's logo and coming 13 organization 11 04:37 Q Do you recall what the event was that is 11:06:49 11:06:53 12 out with a strong brand purpose and core purpose as an THE WITNESS: No, I'm not familiar with this A I could have I just don't recall this A Well, I believe the executive staff -- the 10 executive committee of the board was excited about the 11:04 04 11:04:36 21 Q What was the outcome of that discussion? 9 11:04:09 20 11:06:42 8 11:03:54 11 ASTM's president, and Mary McKiel at the Environmental 19 to prepare for this deposition? 11:06:37 7 revise our brand and revise our logo 11 03:54 10 This appears to be an E-mail between Mr Thomas, 18 11:06:22 11:06:30 6 strengths and discuss whether or not it was time to 8 17 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:06:15 11:06:17 5 ASTM's logo and to reflect on its attributes and its 11:03:02 (Deposition Exhibit 1031 was marked for 16 specific document A It was -- it was a very iterative process 4 where we asked the board to consider ASTM's brand and 11:03:00 7 12 Protection Agency Q What was that branding workshop? 3 11:02:51 11:06:08 Page 68 11:06:11 2 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 4 Beyond the scope of his designation 5 1 workshop 11:02:49 11:06:05 11:06:08 11:07:57 11:07:58 Page 69 18 (Pages 66 - 69) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 impactful statement that summarizes ASTM's activities 11:08:03 1 2 to develop 13,000 standards which improve the lives of 11:08:09 2 "adopted." 3 people every day in countless ways 4 Q What are some of the main ways in which those 4 11:08:13 11:10:25 Q. Not at all? 11:10:25 5 11:08:16 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 11:10:25 THE WITNESS: That's not a term of art that 11:10:28 A Sure Well, just looking around this room, 11:08:18 6 7 the water that we're drinking out of these bottles, 11:08:22 7 I'm familiar with in the standards community. 6 8 the coffee cups that become compostable and 9 recyclable The air that we're breathing is probably 11 08:28 12 standards are being used as we speak 13 Q Pick a standard, and explain to me how it -- 15 16 20 21 11:10:55 11:10:57 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 17 THE WITNESS: And, again, the term 11:11:00 11:11:08 18 "incorporated" isn't the term of art that we would use 11:09:03 11:11:10 19 in the standards community. I would be speculating as 11:09:05 MR BRIDGES: Let me withdraw that 20 to what that might mean. 11:09:13 Q How many of those standards have the force of 11:09:15 22 24 11:11:17 Q. Have you ever -- are you familiar -- strike 23 that. 11:09:19 11:11:12 11:11:16 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:09:13 11 09:18 24 conclusion Vague as to "adopted " Calls for 25 speculation 11:10:43 Q. Are you familiar with any ASTM standards 16 11:09:01 11:09:03 MR FEE: Objection Calls for a legal 11:10:38 15 being incorporated into law or regulation? 22 law because they have been adopted by some government? 23 A. Adopted by reference, no. Adopted as a 11:10:40 14 11:08:58 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 19 Vague 11:10:34 11:10:36 13 different context. I've heard that context before. 11:08:55 Q How many of those are incorporated by Q. You've never heard "adopted by reference" as 12 national standard around the world? That's a 11 08:47 A We've got a volume of 12,700 or so 18 11 11:08:41 11:08:43 14 how many standards did you say ASTM has? 17 reference? 9 11:10:34 10 a term in the standards community? 11:08:34 11 difficult to quantify the extent to which ASTM's 11:10:30 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:08:25 10 impacted by a number of ASTM standards It's 11:10:22 11:10:24 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:08:11 5 standards improve the lives of people every day? THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar with the term 11:11:17 11:11:22 Are you familiar with whether any government 11:11:23 25 has incorporated ASTM standards by reference into law 11:09:21 Page 70 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney. So I 11:09:22 2 wouldn't be able to comment on whether they had the 3 force of law. 11:09:27 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 11:09:24 11:09:28 Q. Have you ever expressed the view as to 4 11:09:28 9 11:09:30 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 8 Calls for a legal conclusion. 11:09:36 11:09:38 THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar -- I don't 11:09:41 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:09:43 13 Q. You don't recall once -- 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15 Q. -- expressing the view as to whether an ASTM MR. FEE: Same objection. 11:09:46 THE WITNESS: Per my previous answer, no. 20 Q. Are you familiar with whether any government 22 regulation? 23 24 conclusion. Vague as to "adopted." Calls for 25 speculation. Q Are you familiar with any government having 11:11:52 9 incorporated ASTM standards by reference? 11:11:56 A Yes Q What did the government -- please give me any 11:12:04 11:12:05 11:12:11 13 incorporated any ASTM standard by reference 11:12:13 11:12:20 A Okay There's actually many incorporation by 15 reference of ASTM standards To pick one, I would 18 11:12:25 11:09:59 11:10:03 11:12:33 11:12:36 Q What governments have incorporated that 19 standard by reference? 11:10:13 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 11:11:52 17 known as ASTM F963 11:09:52 11:09:59 21 has adopted ASTM standards as its law or as its 11:11:47 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 16 pick a specific ASTM standard related to toy safety 11:09:51 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 comment whether that implies it's law 14 11:09:49 18 11:11:43 11:11:44 12 instance that you're aware of where a government has 11:09:45 17 THE WITNESS: I'm familiar with the term 11 11:09:46 16 standard has the force of law? 11:11:42 11:11:42 10 11:09:43 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 11:11:34 MR FEE: Objection Calls or a legal 5 "incorporation by reference " I wouldn't be able to 8 11:09:39 10 recall expressing that position. 12 2 3 conclusion 6 whether any ASTM standard has the force of law? 7 1 or regulation? 11:12:57 11:12:58 20 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 21 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that the U S 11:12:59 11:13:00 22 Consumer Product Safety Commission has incorporated by 11:10:14 11:10:15 11:10:21 11:11:26 Page 72 23 reference F963, and I'm also aware that other 24 governments around the world have incorporated, by 25 reference, F963 as one pathway towards -- as one of Page 71 11:13:02 11:13:05 11:13:10 11:13:14 Page 73 19 (Pages 70 - 73) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 other standards that they reference for toy safety 2 BY MR BRIDGES: 3 Q You started to refer to it as "one pathway " 4 Pathway to what? 5 1 11:13:23 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11:15:45 2 To the extent your understanding is based on your 11:13:31 11:15:47 3 communications with counsel, I'd advise you not to 11:13:31 11:15:49 4 disclose that. If you have an independent 11:13:35 A Well, I'm familiar with Hong Kong and 11:15:51 5 understanding, you can disclose that. 11:13:36 6 Singapore having a consumer product safety policy that 11:13:38 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 if a toy meets either ASTM F963, the European norm 11:13:42 7 11:15:53 8 known as EN 71, or the ISO standard known as ISO 8124, 9 that is the mechanism that their consumer product 11:13:48 11:15:58 8 contains on your own, then go ahead and say that. 9 11:13:55 10 safety ministry has determined constitutes whether or 11:15:57 Q. Well, if you're ignorant of what the CFR MR. FEE: Objection. If you keep up with 10 that, we'll have to take a break here. 11:13:58 11:16:00 11:16:03 11:16:04 11 not a product is deemed to be safe and enter into the 11:14:01 11 12 marketplace in that country or in those two countries 11:14:04 12 Ignore the "ignorant" question. He's not answering a 13 Q So I still don't understand what the pathway 14 was to in your reference to a pathway 13 question as "ignorant." 11:14:07 14 11:14:11 15 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 16 THE WITNESS: Right The government has 11:16:05 11:16:14 MR. BRIDGES: I'm not accusing him of being 11:16:19 17 with that. Nothing to be embarrassed about. 11:16:21 18 reference-type manner, that the ASTM F963 is one 11:14:23 18 19 mechanism that they recognize as a pathway to selling 11:14:28 19 the question with "ignorant" in it. If you have Q As a pathway to a governmental permission? 23 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation It 24 calls for now, I think, a foreign legal conclusion 25 21 it. 11:14:36 22 11:16:23 11:16:23 23 11:14:38 11:16:29 Q. What do you understand the Code of Federal 11:16:29 24 Regulations to contain? 11:14:44 11:16:33 25 11:14:39 11:16:34 MR. FEE: Objection. Page 74 1 speak with certainty. 11:14:46 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 Q. So what did the Consumer Product Safety 4 Council incorporate F963 into? 5 11:14:50 6 Vague as to "incorporate." Q. I'm asking for your understanding. 9 A. Sure. 10 11:15:03 12 11:16:39 THE WITNESS: I mean I've seen the Code of 11:16:49 11:15:03 11:15:05 11:15:07 12 applied in the marketplace 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:15:10 Q. What did the Consumer Product Safety Council 17 11:15:12 A. So the Consumer Product Safety Commission has 20 that they indicate that F963 is one standard that's 11:15:30 Q. Into the Code of Federal Regulations? 23 A. That would be correct. 24 Q. What do you understand the Code of Federal 25 Regulations to contain? 11:17:17 15 understanding as to what the Code of Federal 11:17:18 11:17:21 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered, 18 plus all my previous objections 19 11:17:22 11:17:23 THE WITNESS: I believe I answered that It 11:17:25 11:15:37 11:15:39 20 contains a variety of different information, including 11:17:28 21 it may reference -- incorporate by reference specific 11:15:34 22 11:17:15 11:17:17 11:15:17 17 11:15:26 11:17:11 Q Well, my question was do you have an 16 Regulations contains? 11:15:22 19 consumer product safety, and it's my understanding 21 incorporated by reference. 14 11:15:14 18 the Code of Federal Regulations that's related to 11:17:05 11 what's -- we don't decide how our standards are 11:15:08 16 incorporate F963 by reference into? 11:16:57 11:17:01 10 organization, and we're not involved in determining MR. FEE: Your question did not have "by 15 11:16:52 9 that I'm aware of But I'm not -- ASTM is a nonprofit Q. You used the term "incorporation by MR. BRIDGES: Then I'll fix that. 11:16:46 8 incorporation by reference to specific ASTM standards 13 reference." That was the basis for my objection. 14 11:16:36 11:16:38 7 information in it Sometimes it includes reference -- 11:15:01 11 reference." So I'm trying to figure out -- 5 6 Federal Regulations before There's a lot of 11:15:01 8 11:16:34 3 those, but if you have an independent understanding, 4 you can go ahead and answer 11:14:54 11:14:56 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: To the extent your understanding is based on 2 communications with counsel, you should not disclose 11:14:47 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. Page 76 1 11:14:47 11:17:33 22 ASTM document numbers in addition to numerous other 23 types of supplemental information 11:15:41 11:15:45 11:16:26 11:16:28 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:14:36 THE WITNESS: Yeah I wouldn't be able to MR. FEE: I'm instructing him not to answer 20 another question you want him to answer, you could ask 11:14:33 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:16:15 11:16:17 16 contains, that's all right. There's nothing wrong 11:14:18 11:14:19 20 their product in their marketplace 11:16:10 15 an ignorant person, but if he's ignorant of what it 11:14:14 17 indicated, as stated in an incorporation by But you could answer the prior question. 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 25 11:17:44 Q What else are you aware that the Code of Page 75 11:17:38 11:17:41 11:17:45 Page 77 20 (Pages 74 - 77) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Federal Regulations contains? Are you aware it 2 contains federal regulations? 3 MR. FEE: Objection. Compound. 11:17:51 4 THE WITNESS: My knowledge of the Code of 5 Federal Regulations is -- I'm not an attorney. So 6 it's limited. 7 11:18:04 Since I've answered that question, this might 11:18:05 11:18:06 MR. BRIDGES: No. I'm in the middle of a 11:18:09 10 course of questions. We'll finish my course of 11:18:10 11 questions, and then we can take a break for your 12 convenience. 13 15 19 THE WITNESS: No problem. 11:18:21 11:18:24 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 11:20:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation 8 and a legal conclusion. 9 11:18:28 THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney. I 11:18:30 11:18:32 11:18:35 THE WITNESS: Sure. My independent 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:20:39 Q. You wouldn't know? How many years did you 13 spend on the Hill? 25 understanding would be the federal agency would come 1 out with the notice of proposed rulemaking within the 11:20:43 A. About eight years. 15 Q. And what were your jobs on the Hill? 11:20:47 A. I worked as a staff assistant, a legislative 11:20:48 11:20:51 17 assistant, a legislative director, a committee staff 11:20:54 11:20:58 Q. In each of those jobs, to whom did you 11:21:00 11:21:02 21 MR. FEE: Objection. Compound. 22 THE WITNESS: It would -- I would have to 11:21:04 11:21:07 11:21:09 24 ultimately, the members of Congress. 11:21:12 11:18:37 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 78 11:18:41 11:18:47 1 11:21:16 Page 80 Q Whom were your direct superiors in each of 2 those positions? 11:21:16 11:21:19 3 responsible for. It would inform the public that they 11:18:51 3 MR FEE: Objection Compound 4 intend to enact the following regulation and invite 11:18:54 4 THE WITNESS: So working backwards from my 5 the public to comment on that regulation. 11:18:57 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 11:19:00 Q. What do you understand the -- well, what 9 that context that you just cited? 10 11:19:04 11:19:09 MR. FEE: Could you read that question back 11:21:21 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 8 11:19:11 10 A Sure 11 12 (Record read.) 11:19:30 12 A Sure I'd be happy to 13 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague, and calls for THE WITNESS: It's an action by an agency 19 Q. Expectations only? 11:19:39 11:19:47 11:19:50 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:19:53 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 21 THE WITNESS: I think you'd have to -- 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 MR FEE: Objection Compound Go ahead 11:21:48 15 THE WITNESS: Prior to that, it would have 11:21:50 11:21:54 16 been Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner from Wisconsin 11:20:03 11:20:05 11:20:08 11:21:56 11:22:00 19 three bosses that I served while I was on 11:20:00 Q. You couldn't comment beyond expectations? 13 18 Gunderson from Wisconsin And that would conclude the 11:19:55 22 there's so many different regulations, I wouldn't be 23 able to comment. 11:21:43 11:21:48 17 Prior to that, it would be Congressman Steven 11:19:53 20 11:21:43 14 11:19:33 16 describing their expectations for the areas that 17 they're responsible for. 11:21:40 11:21:43 Q So please continue backwards -- 11:19:31 11:21:32 Q Keep going I thought you were working 11:19:13 15 11:21:27 11:21:40 9 backwards 11 for me, please. 14 speculation. 11:21:24 5 most recent employment on the Hill, chairperson was 6 Congresswoman Connie Morella from Maryland 11:19:01 8 purpose do you understand a regulation to serve in 11:20:39 23 state many different individuals, but I guess 11:18:36 2 areas that they're -- their mission of their agency is 11:20:36 11:20:37 20 report? You shouldn't disclose communications with 11:20:32 11:20:34 10 wouldn't know. 19 11:20:27 11:20:32 18 person. 11:18:27 22 counsel, but if you have an independent understanding, 24 7 11:20:21 Q. Do federal regulations impose requirements on 16 11:18:21 23 go ahead and answer it. 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 11:20:10 11:20:23 14 11:18:20 Q. Do you have any understanding as to what a 20 conclusion. 21 11:18:16 11:18:17 18 federal regulation is? 3 answer. I would be speculating. 12 MR. FEE: You can take a break as soon as you 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 11:18:12 11:18:15 14 finish answering these questions. MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: No, I can't give you a general 6 anybody? 8 be a nice time. Could I take a short break? 9 11:17:58 11:18:01 1 2 11:17:48 11:17:49 20 Capitol Hill 11:22:03 11:22:10 11:22:14 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:22:16 22 Q And what committees did you work for? 11:22:16 23 MR FEE: Same objection Compound 11:22:18 24 THE WITNESS: It was the house committee on 25 science and technology That's the only committee 11:20:08 Page 79 11:22:19 11:22:26 Page 81 21 (Pages 78 - 81) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 MR BRIDGES: We can take a break now 2 THE WITNESS: Okay 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 4 11:31 to 11:40 a m ) 7 11:41:41 11:41:41 11:41:41 (Deposition Exhibit 1032 was marked for 11 11:41:58 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've handed you MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, Exhibit 1034 is an 11:47:43 11:47:44 7 exchange of -- it's an E-mail thread where you're 11:47:51 Q. Is this correct? 11:47:57 11:48:00 11:48:02 11 11:42:21 16 MR FEE: Remember to review it first 17 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1032 ) 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I recognize the document (Deposition Exhibit 1035 was marked for identification.) 15 11:42:19 11:48:10 14 11:42:12 Q Do you recognize this as a document you 11:48:10 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 13 11:42:06 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1034.) 12 11:41:58 12 Exhibit 1032 It's double sided flipping up along the MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, Exhibit 1035 is a 11:48:40 11:48:40 17 time she reported to you. 11:44:07 18 11:44:07 Q. Is that correct? 11:49:02 19 A Yes 11:44:13 23 Q Did you show this document at a presentation? 24 MR FEE: Objection Vague 25 11:49:25 (Deposition Exhibit 1036 for identification.) MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, Exhibit 1036 is a 11:49:25 11:51:16 11:51:16 23 memo from you to ASTM senior staff; is that correct? 11:44:19 THE WITNESS: My recollection is I did, yes THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 22 11:44:11 22 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1035.) 20 11:44:09 11:48:48 11:48:59 21 Q Do you recognize this as a document that you 11:48:40 16 couple of E-mails from Sarah Petre to you during the 11:42:22 11:44:09 21 prepared? 11:46:56 (Deposition Exhibit 1034 for identification.) 10 identification ) 20 A. It is. Correct. 9 E-mails. 11:41:58 10 19 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:46:54 8 either the author or the recipient of each of the 11:41:42 15 prepared? Q. And this is a document you prepared; correct? 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now back on the 14 11:46:52 3 6 6 13 side A. That would be Jim Thomas, our president. 4 11:22:34 (A recess was taken from 11:31 a m 8 record at 11:40 11:46:52 2 11:22:32 5 9 1 beginning? 11:22:28 11:22:31 24 11:44:25 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1036.) 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:44:27 11:51:19 11:52:18 11:52:19 Page 82 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 3 page of Exhibit 1032? 5 Q When was the presentation? 6 A I wouldn't be able to give you an exact date (Deposition Exhibit 1033 was marked for identification ) 9 Please tell me what that document is 14 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1033 ) 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 11:45:29 THE WITNESS: I do recognize the document 19 BY MR BRIDGES: Q What is it? 21 A I believe it's a statement that my supervisor 11:52:57 11:53:02 11:53:13 11:53:23 17 treasurer, Margaret Cassidy. And that may include two 11:46:12 18 others that aren't part of senior staff because of a 11:46:13 20 associate vice president or assistant vice president 23 of my previous year of employment, 2012 11:46:35 22 Jim S. Thomas. 11:53:44 Q. Is Jim S. Thomas James Thomas's son? 24 11:46:46 A. That would be correct. Associate vice 25 president for marketing and sales. 11:46:49 Page 83 11:53:47 11:53:52 23 11:46:39 24 accomplishments, and identifies some goals for 2013 11:53:40 21 level. That would have been Dan Smith and possibly 11:46:32 11:53:29 11:53:36 19 vice president title. They might be senior enough at 22 asked me for, summarizing some of the accomplishments 11:53:04 16 information technology. That would include our 11:46:31 Q Who is the "Jim" that it refers to at the 11:52:53 15 certification programs. Phil Lively, president for 11:46:31 20 A. Sure. That would be Jim Thomas, our 14 committees at the time. Tim Brook, vice president for 11:46:05 18 11:52:49 11:52:51 13 Katherine Morgan, our vice president for technical 11:46:05 (The witness further reviewed Exhibit 1033 ) 11:52:37 11:52:40 12 president. Tom O'Brien, our general counsel. 11:46:05 17 25 11 11:45:30 11:45:34 Q Do you recognize the document? 11:52:30 11:52:49 Q. Tell me who the persons were that you 10 intended that to refer to? 11:45:33 13 16 8 who senior staff is. 11:45:26 MR BRIDGES: I'm handing you Exhibit 1033 12 copy to your counsel A. So at ASTM we have a number of staff that are 7 vice presidents and associate vice presidents. That's 11:45:29 11 I'm sorry I gave you two copies Please hand one 11:52:21 11:52:25 6 responsible for the various divisions. That would be 11:44:43 11:44:45 9 Q. Whom does "ASTM senior staff" in this memo 5 11:44:42 8 11:52:20 4 refer to? 11:44:37 7 I want to say 2008 or -9 11:52:19 A. Correct, that is. 3 11:44:34 A Correct Q. Is that correct? 2 11:44:32 4 10 1 11:44:32 Q Was it at a program referred to on the first Page 84 11:53:57 11:54:00 11:54:03 Page 85 22 (Pages 82 - 85) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Q. Does he still work for ASTM? 2 A. He does. 11:54:10 3 4 identification.) 11:54:56 11:54:56 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. Mr. Grove, Exhibit 1037 is an exchange of 5 11:54:57 7 correspondence between you and John Pace; correct? A. Yes. 9 Q. And the post that you're referring to is 11:55:01 11:55:11 11:55:12 11:55:20 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. What interactions did you have with Emily 11:57:34 11:57:35 11:57:40 What standards community events do you 11:57:44 11:57:46 A. I recall there were some subsequent ACUS 11:57:47 10 public stakeholder opportunities for stakeholders to 11:57:50 11 come to ACUS events. I recall that Emily was at the 11:55:22 14 Bremer? 15 9 11:55:17 11:57:31 Q. And what standards community events do you 6 have in mind? Strike that. 7 11:57:56 12 NIST standards workshop in May of 2012. I know I've 11:55:24 11:55:26 13 seen her on other occasions at ANSI related events, 11:55:28 16 2011 but Emily Bremer was the lead investigator or 11:55:31 17 counsel that was working on the administrative counsel 18 of the United States review and potential 11:55:36 11:55:39 19 recommendations on incorporation by reference, and we 20 met on one occasion at my office at her request. 11:58:11 11:58:17 15 number of different opportunities for meetings and 11:58:22 16 topical discussions. So those would be the -- some of 17 the instances where I may have seen her. 18 Q. What other occasions have you seen her apart 11:58:36 11:55:44 19 from ACUS public stakeholders events, the NIST 11:55:49 11:58:39 20 standards workshop, and ANSI sponsored events? Q. Did you meet with her only once? 11:55:55 21 22 A. Only once professionally. I see her at 11:55:56 11:58:42 22 interactions or times I've seen her in Washington. 23 various standards community events in Washington quite 1 quite understand the -2 11:56:06 25 Page 86 1 11:56:14 11:58:51 11:58:55 Q. I understand maybe most. I want to try to A. Right. That's all I recall. 11:58:58 3 11:59:01 11:59:03 Page 88 Q. What were the ANSI sponsored events to which 2 you referred? 11:56:15 Q. You said you met with her only once A. I recall there was one at the national -- I'm 11:59:10 4 sorry. It's at the consumer electronics association 11:56:17 5 in Arlington, Virginia. A panel where Peter Strauss, 6 standards community events in Washington quite a bit. A. Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. 8 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 9 11:59:07 11:59:09 11:56:15 5 professionally, and then you see her at various 7 A. I think that represents most of my 24 understand every single one that you recall. 11:56:09 MR. FEE: Objection. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 11:55:59 23 11:56:04 Q. Are those nonprofessional events? I don't 11:58:27 11:58:34 21 25 11:58:03 14 ANSI sponsors world standards week where there's a A. I forget the time line. It was probably in 24 a bit. 11:57:24 11:57:25 A. I'd say at least a dozen. At least 10 to 12 8 recall? 10 indicated at the URL down below at the bottom of that 11 document; is that correct? 3 4 times. 11:54:57 8 Q. How many times have you seen her at standards 2 community events? (Deposition Exhibit 1037 was marked for 6 1 11:54:12 11:56:19 11:56:25 THE WITNESS: So I only met in an official 11:56:25 11:59:20 6 Emily spoke, and now that you've refreshed my memory, 7 I believe I spoke also on a panel there. Oh, and the 11:56:32 11:59:24 11:59:28 8 ANSI events, the question. During world standards 11:56:29 10 capacity to be interviewed to represent ASTM's views 11:59:15 11:59:38 9 week every year there's four or five days in October 11:59:41 10 where each day there's a -- one or more events, such 11:59:45 11 once with Emily, but from time to time since then I 11:56:37 11 as the organizational member form of ANSI, where 12 see her at standards related events and quite possibly 11:56:40 12 organizations that are members of ANSI can come and -- 13 would say, "Hi" or "Hello," or "What are you working 14 on" type of networking discussions. 16 11:56:53 Q. What networking would be going on in those 17 networking discussions? 18 11:56:56 A. Just in the course of normal relationship, 21 11:57:07 24 11:57:17 A. I don't recall, no. I don't believe I have 25 ever met with her besides the one time. 11:57:14 19 I belong to, during that week. Q. And did she attend all of those? A. I recall I've seen her at some ANSI events 24 12:00:29 12:00:34 22 before, but I wouldn't be able to tell you which ones 12:00:36 12:00:38 12:00:41 Q. Are there any other instances that you recall 11:57:21 25 being with her at an event? Page 87 12:00:20 12:00:24 12:00:31 21 23 with any certainty. 11:57:20 12:00:13 18 meetings, such as the national policy committee, which 20 11:57:11 22 occasion other than the one time you said you were 23 interviewed? 11:57:04 12:00:07 16 from the standards community might go to discuss legal 17 issues. And, occasionally, there's official committee 11:56:57 Q. Have you ever met with her alone on any There's a legal issues forum where members 11:59:57 12:00:02 14 consumer groups that are members of ANSI speak. 15 11:56:53 19 discussions that one might have with a colleague from 20 another organization. 11:56:45 13 for a program. There's the consumer interest forum or 11:56:48 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11:59:53 12:00:43 12:00:46 Page 89 23 (Pages 86 - 89) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 A Not that I recall 2 Q Where is your office? 3 A The ASTM Washington office 4 Q Where you work? 5 1 12:00:51 A Yeah It's at 1850 M Street, Northwest, A. Government cooperation, you said? I'm sorry. 2 Could you repeat the question. 12 01:08 3 12:01:10 Q. Yes. Was government cooperation part of the 12:03:31 4 public/private collaboration to which you just 12:01:15 12:03:34 5 referred? 12:01:16 12:03:26 12:03:28 12:03:36 12:03:37 6 A. Yes. 7 Q Who else works in ASTM's office there? 12:01:19 7 Q. What government cooperation, if any, did you 8 A Currently, Anthony Quinn, our director of 12:01:25 8 suggest would be beneficial when you were on that 6 Suite 1030 12:01:16 9 public policy and international trade, and we have a Q What's the vacancy? 12 A It will be for a manager of global policy and THE WITNESS: I'm sorry Global policy and 16 industry affairs 16 government. 17 12:04:14 12:04:17 Q. So for government cooperation, then, you're 12:04:20 20 to? 12:04:27 12:04:30 12:02:01 21 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 12:02:04 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, including the government 12:02:11 A I don't think we were on the same panel, but 23 representatives in the process would be included, yes. 12:04:31 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:02:13 25 we spoke the same day at the same event 25 12:02:15 Q Do you recall being on a panel called 3 A That sounds like the panel I was on, yes 4 Q Who else was on that panel? 5 A I believe Gordon Gillerman from the National Q. In the process for developing standards? 12:04:39 Page 92 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah I think -- I don't have 12:05:16 12:05:22 12:05:27 12:05:30 12:05:35 17 12:03:01 20 public/private collaboration in standards development 25 referred? 12:05:15 16 industry standards for regulatory purposes"? 12:05:39 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 18 To the extent that mischaracterizes the document 12:05:43 19 you're reading, object that you don't give him the 12:03:06 12:05:44 20 document that you're reading. If you're asking him to 12:03:10 21 remember a quote -- and he certainly hasn't been 12:03:13 12:05:49 12:05:52 22 designated as an ASTM witness on quotes from 12:03:17 Q And government cooperation was part of the Q. Do you recall that one of the questions 15 agencies take into consideration when examining 12:03:04 19 but I believe we were outlying ways to make the A. That does. 12:05:12 12:05:14 14 was as follows: "What factors should government 12:02:59 18 my -- I don't recall the specifics of my presentation, 12:05:02 13 identified in the agenda published to the attendees 12:02:58 MR FEE: Objection Vague 12:04:58 12:05:10 Q. Does that refresh your recollection? 12 12:02:56 24 public/private collaboration to which you just A. Thank you for pointing that out. I did not 11 12:02:55 Q Were you urging greater government in 12:04:53 12:05:08 10 12:02:47 16 23 8 12 02:39 12:02:56 22 BY MR BRIDGES: Q. Do you recall that this was a panel moderated 7 Technologies, and you? 12:02:49 21 more effective, in our experience 12:04:41 12:04:53 9 recall that Emily was on the same panel but... MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 15 industry cooperation? 12:04:41 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 6 from NIST, Emily Bremer, John Card from EchoStar 12:02:37 Q What was the greater government industry 13 BY MR BRIDGES: A. Correct. 12:04:33 5 by Scott Cooper, that panelists were Gordon Gillerman 12:02:46 11 cooperation that you were urging? 14 4 12 02:29 12:02:34 8 Institute There's probably one more I'm sorry I 2 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:02:25 7 Scott Cooper from the American National Standards 12 12:02:19 12:02:23 6 Institute of Standards and Technology I believe 10 1 12:02:17 2 "Towards Greater Government and Industry Cooperation"? 12:04:32 12:04:39 Page 90 9 just can't recall 12:04:25 19 development process? Is that what you're referring 12:02:01 Q Do you recall that the Consumer Electronics 23 were on a panel with Ms Bremer; is that correct? 1 12:04:07 12:04:10 18 suggesting government participation in the standards 12:02:01 22 Associates panel you're on -- I think you said you 24 12:02:01 12:02:01 20 BY MR BRIDGES: 21 15 have a seat at the table, including the U.S. 12:02:01 REPORTER MARTIN: And you said something THE WITNESS: When we fill it 12:04:00 12:04:04 14 process that results in voluntary consensus standards 12:01:56 12:02:01 18 towards the end 12:03:56 13 open balance and transparent standards development 12:01:41 REPORTER MARTIN: What was the last -- 15 12:03:55 A. I assume I presented some of the best 12 ensuring all diverse stakeholders that work in our 12 01:36 14 12:03:48 11 practices that we've observed in the ASTM system for 12:01:34 13 industry affairs when we fill it 19 10 12:01:32 11 17 9 panel? 12:01:27 10 vacancy at the moment So just the two of us 12:03:40 23 particular slides of presentations. 12:03:17 24 But you can answer if you know. 25 12:03:22 12:03:24 THE WITNESS: Okay. That sounds like Page 91 12:05:54 12:05:57 12:06:01 12:06:05 Page 93 24 (Pages 90 - 93) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 something that I would speak about. 12:06:06 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 12:06:08 12:08:53 5 standards for regulatory purposes? 12:08:57 3 consensus standards in support of their agency's 12:09:01 12:06:08 4 take into consideration when examining industry 2 development activities and utilizing voluntary 12:06:08 Q. So what factors should government agencies 6 1 when they're looking at participating in standards 4 mission. 12:06:10 A. Well, one of the most important factors that 12:09:03 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:06:13 6 12:09:11 Q. So my question is what are the regulatory 12:09:11 7 we believe is important to maintain the robust, viable 12:06:15 7 purposes that in your interactions with government on 8 system of standardization that we have in the U.S. is 12:06:24 8 behalf of ASTM, you believe government agencies have 9 looking to see if standards development organizations 12:06:26 10 meet the world trade organizations, technical barriers 12:06:28 12:09:16 12:09:20 9 when they examine industry standards? So I'm asking 10 what do you think the regulatory purposes are. 12:09:25 12:09:29 11 to trade agreement principles for international 12:06:31 11 MR. FEE: Same objections, plus compound. 12:09:31 12 standardization. It's a message that we believe 12:06:34 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And I don't believe 12:09:33 13 strongly in at ASTM, we've invested heavily in, and we 14 promote it as widely as possible. 15 12:06:37 13 there's any one answer to that. Each agency that 12:06:41 Q. What regulatory purposes do you anticipate 12:06:49 16 government agencies have that causes them to examine 17 industry standards? MR. FEE: Read that back, please. 19 (Record read.) 20 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 22 12:07:03 12:07:14 12:07:15 12:07:23 23 that. I think you could assume that government 12:07:24 24 participants in the standardization process bring 12:07:30 25 knowledge of regulatory agendas and regulatory needs 3 others 5 9 I'm unclear as to what agenda you're referring 13 10 Page 96 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I think we discussed 12:10:09 12:10:11 12:08:16 12:10:28 12:10:33 12:10:36 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:10:41 12:10:42 You can answer if you know. 12:10:44 THE WITNESS: Generally, I believe the EPA 12:10:46 14 would look to -- has a mission of helping to keep the 12:10:48 15 air we breathe, the water we drink and the ground that 12:10:53 16 we habitate on as safe and as clean and sustainable as 12:08:22 17 designated as to speculation as to government 12:10:28 Q. Do you understand what regulatory purposes 13 12:08:10 12:08:20 MR FEE: Objection He's not been 12:10:24 12 Q So my question is what regulatory purposes do 12:10:16 12:10:19 11 It's also beyond the scope of his designation. 12:08:07 12:08:08 14 you understand government agencies to have when they 16 12:10:00 12:10:05 9 standards by reference into CFR? 12:08:00 MR BRIDGES: That's all right It's so 15 examine industry standards? MR. FEE: Same objections. 8 federal agencies may have in incorporating ASTM 12:07:57 12:08:04 12 short, I can read it to him 12:10:00 Q. In using or in examining ASTM's standards. 2 earlier federal agencies do incorporate, by reference, 7 MR FEE: Objection Vague What agenda -- 11 24 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:07:52 12:07:56 10 There's no agenda in front of him 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 potential factor. 12:07:50 6 agencies examining industry standards for regulatory 8 12:09:57 MR. FEE: Same objections. 4 like ASTM. So that could be one potential -- one 12:07:50 Q This agenda item referred to government 7 purposes 12:09:54 22 3 standards from voluntary consensus standards bodies 12:07:45 4 BY MR BRIDGES: 12:09:48 12:09:51 21 purposes are on a general basis? 1 12:07:40 12:09:48 Q. So beyond that, you can't give your testimony 20 as to what you think the government regulatory 12:07:32 25 Page 94 12:07:37 2 community of which ASTM is one member amongst 225 12:09:40 12:09:42 12:09:46 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 THE WITNESS: I don't have an answer for 1 of agencies to the voluntary consensus standards 15 participate in our committees have different needs and 17 participating in our process. 12:07:13 21 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 12:09:38 12:06:54 16 different expectations and different motivations for 12:07:01 18 12:09:34 14 we're aware of that we interact with or that 12:10:56 17 possible. So they might look to organizations like 12:08:24 12:11:02 18 regulatory motivations, but to the extent you have an 12:08:26 18 ASTM and many others to see what work we're doing in 19 understanding individually, you can try to answer 12:08:31 19 many of these areas and ensure that their employees 12:11:08 20 are participating in our standards development process 12:11:10 20 that 21 12:08:34 THE WITNESS: Sure And I'm not an attorney, 22 but my understanding is the National Technology 25 guidance for federal agencies for them to consider 12:08:38 12:11:12 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:08:36 23 Transfer and Advancement Act of 1995 combined with the 24 OMB circular A119 lays out criteria or further 21 to reflect the agency's mission. 12:08:35 12:11:17 23 Q. How would the government employees affect -- 24 strike that. 12:08:41 25 12:08:50 12:11:05 12:11:22 What effect does the presence of government Page 95 12:11:17 12:11:26 Page 97 25 (Pages 94 - 97) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 2 ASTM? 3 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 12:11:37 4 THE WITNESS: In my experience, federal 12:11:43 5 government participation in standards development 6 helps to make a more effective public/private 12:11:47 7 collaboration in our process. 9 12:11:52 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 12:15:23 A. I believe it is, yes. 12:15:25 Q. Have you seen a more recent organizational 10 11 slightly out of date. 12 THE WITNESS: In the area of drafting 12:11:58 12 12:11:59 12:12:03 12:12:03 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. We have 140 different 12:12:04 18 technical committees and over 1,000 individual 12:12:07 12:12:09 19 subcommittees. So each agency's participation and 12:12:12 12:12:15 21 believe was your term, that would vary significantly. 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 12:12:20 12:12:23 Q. Who are two or three people at ASTM you think 24 would be in a best position to answer the question of 2 12:12:23 3 Vague. 4 12:15:46 12:15:51 16 Executive Vice President," and then a number of 12:15:57 17 departments would be reporting up through Kathie. 18 This is as of just a few weeks ago. 19 12:16:01 12:16:04 Q. I see that she is almost directly under 12:16:10 20 Mr. Thomas in what looks like a direct report as vice 12:16:11 21 president of Technical Committee Operations. Would 23 12:16:16 12:16:18 A. It would be expanding her responsibilities. 12:16:23 24 For instance, now I report to Kathie Morgan, as does 12:16:25 12:12:32 25 Phil Lively, as does Teresa Cendrowska, as does Tim Page 98 12:12:38 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12:15:40 A. Under the direct line from Jim Thomas, that 22 that be simply changing the title in that box? 12:12:25 25 what effect the presence of government employees has 1 in the creation of standards? 12:15:36 15 would be a new box that would say, "Kathie Morgan, 16 20 what role they play in the drafting of standards, I 12:15:31 12:15:35 Q. What changes are necessary to make it 13 current? 14 12:15:27 12:15:29 A. I have not, but I believe that this is just 12:11:54 Q. Who would? 12:15:22 6 July 21, 2014? MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 15 12:15:21 Q. Is this an organizational chart as of 11 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:15:20 9 chart of ASTM? 12:11:53 13 standards, I wouldn't have specific knowledge. 12:14:55 12:15:20 8 12:11:51 Q. How does it help in the drafting of (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1038.) 7 12:11:50 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 standards? 12:11:45 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 1038 before? 3 12:11:30 12:11:36 1 2 1 employees have in the standards development process at 12:16:30 Page 100 1 Brooke, and a new box would need to be created -- or 12:12:43 12:12:44 3 Daniel G. Smith. THE WITNESS: Well, other than me, I would 12:12:49 5 say I'm one. Beyond that, you know, ASTM, it's a 12:12:50 12:16:38 2 in the old box that said Kathie Morgan, I would put 12:16:48 12:16:51 4 Q. That's on Page 5 of 11 of the document? 5 A. Page 6 of 11. So Kathie has been promoted, 12:16:53 12:16:56 6 decentralized process. So it would really vary again 12:13:01 6 and Dan has taken Kathie's old job, if that helps. 12:17:12 7 by the individual committees and the actions by the 12:13:05 7 12:17:16 8 committee officers. So if I had to give you another 12:13:08 9 name, I would say probably Katherine Morgan, who 12:13:14 10 formerly led our Technical Committee Operations. 12:13:17 Q. All right. In the standards development but 8 not Technical Committee Operations? Page 5 of 11 is 12:17:17 9 Technical Committee Operations. Page 6 of 11 is 10 standards development? 12:17:24 12:17:29 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:13:23 11 12 Q. What is her current post? 12:13:23 12 the difference between Technical Committee Operations 13 A. She's the executive vice president. 14 Q. What are her duties? 15 12:13:25 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 17 14 able to tell you why we have it displayed that way. 12:13:28 12:13:31 THE WITNESS: Actually, I'm not certain what 18 her new duties are. She just assumed them in 20 she'll be serving as our president within the next two 21 to three years. So she's broad supervisory 22 responsibility. 12:13:39 12:13:48 12:13:51 12:13:54 23 (Deposition Exhibit 1038 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:13:35 12:13:36 19 February. But I would assume she's serving as our -- 12:17:30 13 and standards development, and in fact -- I would be 12:13:27 16 Beyond the scope of his designation. A. Yeah. I actually wouldn't be able to explain 15 We think of them together. Q. Where is Ms. Morgan's office? 17 A. Kathie is based at our corporate headquarters 12:14:54 12:17:59 12:18:02 Q. What offices does ASTM have apart from the 20 Pennsylvania office you just referred to and 21 Washington, D.C.? 25 12:18:14 A. Well, we have an office in Ottawa, Canada, Q. Any other offices? Page 99 12:18:11 12:18:18 23 but I believe the person that works for us there is a 24 contractor. 12:14:55 12:17:57 18 in Conshohocken, Pennsylvania. 22 12:14:54 12:17:48 12:17:48 16 19 12:17:32 12:17:34 12:18:24 12:18:26 12:18:32 12:18:33 Page 101 26 (Pages 98 - 101) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 A I had previously mentioned an office in 1 an interview with Emily that appeared in our magazine. 12:18:34 2 12:18:35 3 Q Who else? 12:18:39 4 A We operated for many years an office in (Deposition Exhibit 1040 was marked for 3 2 Brussels, Belgium where we have a contractor identification.) 12:18:40 5 6 unfortunately, recently passed away So we are 7 re-evaluating what we're going to be doing in Mexico 7 12:18:51 MR. FEE: Read it first. MR. BRIDGES: It's pretty short. It's pretty 8 obvious. 12:18:54 12:18:58 9 12:18:59 9 there for the time being 12:23:27 Q. Mr. Grove, have you seen Exhibit 1040 before? 6 12:18:47 8 City But I believe we will still have an office 12:23:27 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:18:44 5 Mexico City That office, our representative, 10 11 A We do So we worked in collaboration with an 12:19:01 11 this E-mail, yes. 12 organization called the American Association of State 12:19:04 12:24:02 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 13 12:19:09 15 facility in Buckeystown, Maryland, which is -- we do 12:19:12 12:24:12 Q. All right. And did you get -- did you see at 12:24:27 12:19:22 16 A. Yes. 12:19:30 17 Q. Is the "Jeff" in the middle of the large 21 25 22 12:19:55 12:20:38 A. I believe it is as I'm responsible for the 23 A I honestly don't recall speaking with Emily 25 12:20:46 12:24:39 12:24:41 Q. Why are you responsible for the reading room? MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 24 speculation. 12:20:41 12:24:34 12:24:37 21 ASTM's reading room. 12:19:50 Q How often do you speak to Emily Bremer on the 24 telephone? 20 12:19:47 A In 2013 I made approximately 24 trips to 22 ASTM's headquarters 23 19 reference to you? 12:19:44 20 headquarters in the course of a year? 12:24:30 18 paragraph at the top, do you understand that to be a 12:19:35 Q How often do you visit the corporate 12:24:54 12:24:57 12:24:59 THE WITNESS: For many years I've been 12:25:01 Page 104 Page 102 1 Bremer since 2012 on the telephone. 2 12:20:48 Q. What about your staff? Do you know how often 3 they speak to Emily Bremer on the telephone? 4 12:20:53 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 5 Beyond the scope of his designation. 6 12:20:50 12:20:56 12:20:57 THE WITNESS: I believe my staff would inform 7 me if they spoke with Emily, and I don't recall them 8 speaking with her by phone. 9 MR. BRIDGES: I'll hand you Exhibit 1039. identification.) 12:21:14 13 12:21:25 12:21:25 Q. Do you recognize this as an E-mail to you 12:21:25 14 from Cicely Enright? And who is Cicely Enright? MR. FEE: Objection. Compound. 16 12:21:26 THE WITNESS: Yes. I recognize this is an 12:21:46 21 22 published in that newsletter? 23 25 6 our organization through the distribution of our 12:25:17 12:25:25 7 standards under the model that served us so well for 12:25:27 12:25:30 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:25:42 10 Q. How did you come by such an interest? 12:25:42 A. Well, working in Washington for ASTM for as 12:25:45 12:25:48 13 emerging interest in striking this delicate balance, 12:25:56 14 began to see efforts that other organizations were 12:26:04 15 taking, such as the NFPA, which, going back all the 12:26:06 17 documents on their website. And I've heard some 12:21:54 12:22:00 12:22:00 12:22:03 12:22:05 12:26:21 12:26:23 20 and other people associated with ACUS who served on 12:26:31 21 ACUS committees. So those are some of the factors and 12:26:35 22 things that have influenced my thinking on this 23 reading room. 24 12:22:07 THE WITNESS: It appears as if it does. It's 12:26:10 12:26:15 18 interesting testimony and ideas expressed by people 19 like Peter Strauss, who is a law professor, I believe, 12:21:58 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 24 designation. 5 regulations while maintaining our ability to sustain 12:21:51 Q. Does this E-mail concern an article to be 12:25:09 12:25:12 16 way to 2004, started to provide some of their key code 18 associate editor of our ASTM magazine known as 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 incorporated by reference in various laws and 12:21:50 17 E-mail from Cicely Enright. Cicely works as an 19 Standardization News. 12:25:05 3 the public with access to ASTM standards that become 12 long as I have, I've begun to hear and see the 12:21:25 15 12:25:01 2 I have in striking the right balance between providing 11 (Deposition Exhibit 1039 was marked for 11 1 working with senior staff because of an interest that 8 118 years. 12:21:08 10 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:21:00 12:21:01 12:24:18 12:24:22 17 inspections To my knowledge, that's the scope of 19 12:24:12 14 any point the segment from John Pace to James Thomas 16 cement and concrete reference, related laboratory 18 ASTM's offices 12:24:07 12:24:09 15 up top? 12:19:16 12:23:35 12:23:37 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm familiar -- I am on Q Any other offices? 14 AASHTO, and AASHTO and ASTM work together in a 12:23:27 12:23:34 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1040.) 10 13 Highway Transportation Officials It's known as 12:22:11 12:23:27 12:26:42 12:26:44 Q. I understand the factors that influenced your 25 thinking, but how did you come to have such an 12:22:08 Page 103 12:26:47 12:26:50 Page 105 27 (Pages 102 - 105) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 interest to begin with? 12:26:52 1 the development or for the funded research, that the 2 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 12:26:54 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I guess I don't know the 4 difference in your question. ASTM is a nonprofit 12:26:58 12:26:59 5 organization that serves society in a number of 12:27:07 6 different ways. We're excited about our documents and 7 what they can do, and the idea that we could strike a 12:27:10 12:27:12 8 balance that would allow more access to some of those 12:27:18 9 documents was something that we thought would be a -11 well as for the public. 13 Q. Do you have any background in publications 14 before coming to ASTM? A. I do not. 16 12:27:31 12:27:38 12:27:53 A. No. 19 Q. Did you have any background in archives 12:27:57 A. No. 22 Q. Did you have any background in educational 12:28:01 12:28:05 24 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it would depend what you 12:28:08 12:28:12 6 THE WITNESS: No 8 12:28:15 11 13 4 Q In the answer you just gave, you referred to 12:31:19 12:31:23 12:28:41 12:28:45 12:31:23 12:31:25 12:31:31 9 community So I've met the various Washington 12:31:34 12:28:48 12:28:58 12:31:56 12:31:59 18 began to -- when you started working with them on 12:32:02 12:32:06 19 exchanging information I'm just trying to find out 12:32:10 20 what year you're referring to when you said that 12:32:12 21 12:29 05 THE WITNESS: My recollection was that there Q Well, I think that doesn't quite answer my 17 interest when you began to hear -- sorry When you 12:29:04 24 12:31:45 12:31:48 16 question I think you said you developed this 12:29:00 You can answer individually 12:31:39 13 individually whenever necessary throughout my career 15 12:28:59 23 12:31:35 12:31:41 14 at ASTM So 12:28:59 12:32:14 MR FEE: Objection Mischaracterizes his 22 testimony 12:29 07 25 was an idea that if the federal government paid for A That would be, I think I've met -- the 12 career And I would say I've worked cooperatively and 12:28:56 MR FEE: Objection This is beyond the 22 scope of his designation 12:31:11 12:31:18 11 standards development organizations, many times in my 12:28:40 Q And what did you understand the interest in 12:31:00 Page 108 12:31 09 10 representatives for agencies Excuse me For SDO's, 17 Institute and others, and National Science Foundation 21 12:30:54 12:30:56 8 standards community in Washington is a small 12:28:38 12:30:44 12:30:49 24 Washington. And I learned suddenly that they've 5 when you started working with NFPA and exchanged 12:28:37 THE WITNESS: I was aware, during my time on 20 public access to mean? 12:28:18 12:28:31 15 the time "public access to science," which was mostly 19 12:30:41 23 information about some of the things happening in 3 2005 12:28:26 16 about academic journals funded by the National 12:30:35 12:30:38 22 began to start working with them or start exchanging 7 14 Capitol Hill, there was interest in what was called at 12:30:24 A. That's based on what the NFPA representatives 6 information with them When do you date that? MR FEE: Objection Vague as to "government 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 12:30:19 19 all the way to 2004. Is that your understanding? 12:28:25 Q Did you have any background in public access 12 sponsored documents " Q. Because you pointed out in your answer 12:28:26 9 to government sponsored documents before coming to 10 ASTM? 12:30:19 16 2 codes, but I believe it goes all the way back to 2004, 12:28:24 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 12:30:13 12:30:16 1 their codes, and I wouldn't be able to tell you what 4 education, widespread education before coming to ASTM? MR FEE: Objection Vague 12:30:07 12:30:09 12:28:10 25 already been addressing this issue through some of Page 106 12:28:15 Q Did you have any background in promoting 5 THE WITNESS: I would -- I actually wouldn't 21 told me, which was very informational to me once we 23 policy before coming to ASTM? 3 12:29:59 12:30:01 13 reasonably assume it's been within the last five 20 12:27:59 2 BY MR BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. This is also 18 some of the standards. I think you said going back 12:27:55 21 1 mean by "educational policy " 12:29:46 12:29:52 17 earlier how long NFPA had provided public access to 12:27:55 20 before coming to ASTM? 8 in giving some public access to its standards? 14 years. Probably 2009, 2010. 12:27:37 18 12:29:46 Q. When were you first aware of NFPA's actions 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. Do you have any background in libraries 17 before coming to ASTM? 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 12:29:32 12:29:39 12 be able to give you an exact date, but I would 12:27:34 15 5 under that type of control. 11 12:27:31 12:29:25 4 were exclusively put into commercial journals and put 12:27:25 10 beyond the scope of his designation. 12:27:28 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:29:22 3 public for a reasonable amount of time before they 12:27:21 9 10 very good for ASTM's standing in the community, as 12:29:14 2 resulting publications should be available to the 23 12:29:09 12:32:15 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to give you 12:32:19 24 an exact year except for I know when we began the APCO 12:29:12 25 related work, that was 2011 time frame Page 107 12:32:20 12:32:25 Page 109 28 (Pages 106 - 109) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 12:32:29 Q And did your interest in providing a reading 1 notice -- 12:32:31 3 room arise about the same time as the APCO engagement 4 arose? 5 2 12:32:32 12:32:38 12:32:40 6 I began to introduce the idea and socialize it before 7 then Maybe a year or so before then 5 12:32:43 Q You introduced the idea of a reading room? 9 A The idea of figuring out a way to strike the You can answer if you know 12:35:46 THE WITNESS: Yeah In my opinion, access 12:35:47 12:35:50 11 standards development organizations From ASTM's 12:33:01 12:35:54 12 standpoint, we just were not hearing from the public 12:33:04 14 abstracts So there was various ideas that I began to 12:35:42 12:35:44 10 just wasn't an issue that people were bringing to 12:32:57 13 our standards to the public rather than relying on 12:35:41 9 12:32:53 12 there was a way we could provide better summaries of 12:35:38 MR FEE: Lack of foundation Calls for 8 12:32:51 11 time that I introduced was perhaps figuring out if Q -- from 2004 to 2011? 7 witness on behalf of ASTM 12:32:48 10 right balance I think another idea we had at the 12:35:38 6 speculation This is beyond his designation as a 12:32:45 8 12:35:38 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 4 A Similar time line I believe it began to -- 12:35:38 MR FEE: Objection Calls for -- 12:35:57 13 or from agencies that access to ASTM standards at the 12:33:07 12:36:01 14 reasonable and flexible, widely available way that we 15 socialize with ASTM staff about how to strike this 12:33:13 15 provided them, why that wasn't good enough So this 16 delicate balance between providing the public with 12:33:17 16 was all informational to me and was significant in the 17 greater access to our documents while still preserving 12:33:20 17 fact that NFPA was doing this 12:33:25 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 12:36:05 18 what we need to preserve in order to meet -- continue 12:36:10 12:36:14 12:36:19 12:36:36 19 the enterprise of developing standards, keeping the 12:33:28 19 20 barriers to participation low, and ensuring that would 12:33:31 20 determining what standards ASTM would make available 21 continue to provide the important value that we do in 12:33:35 21 on its reading room? 22 high-quality market-relevant standards that protect 23 the public 24 12:33:39 Q How did you establish priorities in 12:36:36 22 12:33:44 25 reading room in the discussion you were referring to? MR FEE: Objection Vague 23 12:33:42 Q How did you introduce the idea of providing a 12:36:40 12:36:45 12:36:47 THE WITNESS: I believe there was some 12:36:51 24 discussion initially about there was a provision 25 introduced in legislation on the Hill that could 12:33:46 12:36:51 12:36:58 Page 110 1 A. Right. It would be as simple as talking to 1 potentially put ASTM in the position that if we did 12:37:03 2 other staff at ASTM about looking at solutions that 12:34:01 2 not provide public access at no cost to a few specific 12:37:08 3 other organizations are considering or have posted 12:34:04 3 standards, that an agency would be precluded from 4 towards providing greater access. 5 12:34:09 Q. What other organizations did you mean just 6 now? 7 12:33:52 Page 112 12:34:17 12:34:19 12:37:16 5 that was a difficult position for ASTM to be put in. 12:37:20 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: A. I believe the NFPA would be one. The 12:34:19 8 American Petroleum Institute is a trade association 12:34:23 9 that also develops standards, and I believe that they 12:37:11 4 utilizing such standards in future rulemakings, and 12:34:25 7 12:37:25 Q. My question was how did you establish 12:37:25 8 priorities in determining what standards ASTM would 9 make available on its reading room? 12:37:27 12:37:29 10 took some steps to provide greater access to their 12:34:30 10 MR. FEE: Same objections. 11 documents that I can recall caught my attention. 12:34:32 11 THE WITNESS: So that same legislation that I 12:37:33 12 referenced was very specific to an organization called 12:37:38 12 Q. What other organizations? 12:34:39 13 A. There's probably others, but those are the 12:34:50 14 two I can think of that are what I would call "thought 15 leaders." 16 12:34:56 13 FIMSA or PIMSA, which deals with -- it's a division 14 within the Department of Transportation, which 12:34:58 12:35:03 12:37:45 16 pipelines and hazardous substances, and particularly 17 for pipelines, this provision that I referred to A. The fact that they were making some of their 12:35:05 18 earlier would have caused this potential barrier on 12:35:07 19 the use of ASTM standards. 12:35:11 20 21 access to them, positioned them in a way that was 12:35:15 21 standards would be impacted by this potential 24 So we began -- I began to look at which 12:38:03 12:38:06 12:35:19 22 legislation and what steps would ASTM possibly take to 12:35:22 23 address this, either through legislation or through Q. Can you explain why it took approximately 25 seven years for NFPA's reading room to catch your 12:37:56 12:38:01 20 first responders and those that they deemed needed 23 notice. 12:37:49 12:37:52 19 core documents available to the public at no cost to 22 beyond the norm for standards developers and caught my 12:37:40 12:37:43 15 regulates the safety and the safe operation of Q. What made NFPA a thought leader with respect 17 to a reading room? 18 12:34:51 12:37:32 12:35:24 24 the fact that we make a decision that we'll go ahead 12:35:27 25 and put it up for the public to review. Page 111 12:38:08 12:38:15 12:38:18 12:38:24 Page 113 29 (Pages 110 - 113) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 1 12:38:36 MR. FEE: Objection to form. 2 12:38:36 Q In your last answer you said, "I began to THE WITNESS: That's not what I intended in 12:41:25 12:41:26 3 look at which standards would be impacted by this 12:38:39 3 my answer to your question. Taking steps to me, what 4 potential legislation and what steps would ASTM 12:38:41 4 I was implying there was that we were taking steps as 12:41:32 5 possibly take to address this " What did you mean by 12:38:46 5 an organization to implement this directive that might 12:41:34 6 "to address this" in that answer? 7 6 be passed by Congress. 12:38:51 A Well, personally, I felt that there was a 8 real dilemma for ASTM because, on one hand, we work 12:38:56 9 with stakeholders who come to ASTM with the 12 will help to benefit their industry or protect and 12:39:28 17 that they can no longer utilize ASTM standards if ASTM 18 does not make such standards available to the public 21 that 22 12:42:09 17 organizations like ASTM and our model of standards 12:42:15 12:42:18 12:42:22 20 letter from SDOs that went to Capitol Hill. 12:39:47 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:39:49 Q Thank you Yeah, I'm not sure you did I 12:42:02 12:42:05 16 unintended consequences of this approach on 19 letter. I just don't recall. I know there was a 12:39:39 20 have to read back your question if I failed to answer 12:41:57 14 know that we did engage with Congressional staff on 18 development. And I should say we may have signed a 12:39:32 12:39:37 19 for free at no cost on an Internet website So you'd 12:41:52 12:41:54 15 this issue to discuss what we thought would be the 12:39:24 16 hand we had the situation where an agency may be told THE WITNESS: Right. So I don't recall that 13 letters or signed any specific documents, but I do 12:39:21 15 demonstrate our significance, and then on the other 12:41:50 12 we took any official position, wrote any official 12:39:18 14 hand we have that commitment to our stakeholders to 12:41:42 12:41:48 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 11 12:39:07 12:39:12 13 ensure their industry is operating safely So on one 12:41:41 Q. Did, in fact, ASTM argue against the public 10 12:39:04 11 foremost developer of information and standards that 8 9 access provisions in the FIMSA legislation? 12:39:00 10 expectation at times that we are going to be the 12:41:39 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:38:54 12:41:27 22 12:39:49 12:42:25 12:42:29 Q. So my question was a straightforward 12:42:30 23 was asking what you meant by "to address this" when 12:39:52 23 question. Did, in fact, ASTM argue against the public 24 you were referring to the discussions around the FIMSA 12:39:55 24 access provisions in the FIMSA legislation? 25 legislation I'm just trying to find out -- 25 12:40:01 12:42:31 12:42:34 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered now. 12:42:38 Page 116 Page 114 1 The problem is your vague question is "argue." He 1 A Sure 2 Q -- what you meant by "to address this," what 12:40:07 3 the "this" is and what it meant to address -- 2 answered it. 12:40:07 3 12:40:12 4 MR FEE: Objection to form 5 Go ahead 6 THE WITNESS: I was thinking ahead I But if you have something more to add, go 4 ahead. 12:40:16 5 12:40:17 12:42:41 12:42:45 12:42:45 12:42:47 THE WITNESS: We engaged Congressional staff 6 and discussed with them the potential impacts, made 12:40:18 7 believe it's my role to anticipate what changes could 12:40:20 12:40:22 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:42:50 7 them aware on what impacts could be on ASTM. 8 be coming from Washington, and the fact that this 9 legislation was being considered, I thought was 10 significant enough that we should do some internal 13 taking steps to address it should it either be forced 15 want to do independent of any legislative or 17 BY MR BRIDGES: 18 12:43:00 Q. In that engagement did you express criticisms 12:43:04 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 12:43:06 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I recall that I asked 15 what the motivation was because I understood that 12:40:50 16 there was this perception that the consumers or the 17 general public would somehow glean some technical 12:40:57 12:43:07 12:43:08 12:43:14 12:43:16 18 knowledge out of our standards that would help them 12:40:58 19 look at what steps ASTM would possibly take to address 12:43:00 12 of those provisions of the legislation? 14 12:40:47 12:40:53 Q And you testified earlier that you began to 12:42:59 A. Sure. 13 12:40:38 12:40:43 14 upon us or should we decide it's something that we Q. Well, "engage" is a very bland word. 11 12:40:33 12 amongst ASTM's management staff to ensure that we were 12:42:54 12:42:59 10 12:40:30 11 planning and have some socialization of the issue 16 government directive 9 12:40:28 12:42:47 12:41:00 12:43:24 19 understand better how pipelines could be made more 12:43:26 20 safely in their communities, and I wanted to -- in 12:43:31 21 that we make a decision that we'll go ahead and put it 12:41:08 21 fact, at that meeting I believe I brought a copy of an 12:43:35 22 up for the public to review What did you mean by 12:41:11 22 ASTM standard that they were particularly interested 20 this either through legislation or through the fact 23 "taking steps to address this through legislation"? 24 Did that mean opposing the provisions relating to 25 public access in the FIMSA legislation? 12:41:04 12:43:39 23 in to show them the technical nature of the standard 12:41:20 12:43:44 24 because I felt they were misinformed if that was their 12:41:14 12:43:48 25 perception. 12:41:22 Page 115 12:43:51 Page 117 30 (Pages 114 - 117) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 2 12:44:04 Q. Did your answer mean to imply that ASTM did 3 not criticize the public access provisions of the 12:44:09 4 legislation? Because your answer avoided my word 12:44:11 5 "criticism" by substituting other words and other 6 activities. 7 12:44:15 12:44:18 12:44:19 8 Vague. He doesn't have to adopt your wording. He 12:44:20 9 just has to respond substantively to your question. 12:44:22 MR. BRIDGES: He has to answer my question, 11 that's exactly right, and that's all I'm asking him to 12 do. 13 15 12:44:28 MR. FEE: You can do it again if you have 12:44:28 12:44:30 THE WITNESS: I would add that I did not 19 12:44:31 12:44:37 Q. Did my question have the word "support" in? 12:44:39 20 questions. That's his answer. If you don't like it, 22 12:44:41 MR. BRIDGES: It's not an answer to my 1 MR. BRIDGES: It's a yes or no. 2 MR. FEE: No, it's not a yes or no. 3 4 12:44:52 12:44:55 12:44:57 12:44:58 12:44:58 8 MR. FEE: He's already answered it twice. 9 MR. BRIDGES: I need a yes or no. MR FEE: Can you read that question back, 19 please 12:46:15 12:46:16 20 (Record read ) MR FEE: Objection Vague as to "public 12:46:25 12:46:25 12:46:27 MR BRIDGES: I'll rephrase that 12:46:31 Q What other priorities have you had in 12:46:32 1 in this reading room? 2 12:46:33 Page 120 12:46:36 A. Well, on or about that time, I believe that 12:46:39 3 was when scholars, such as Peter Strauss and ACUS was 4 beginning to -- and OMB was beginning to discuss or 12:46:41 12:46:48 12:46:53 12:46:57 9 it's fair to say that when discussing what documents 12:47:01 12:47:05 12:47:09 12:47:20 12 standards that have been identified to us as having 12:47:24 12:45:09 13 been incorporated by reference, by federal agencies. 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15 12:45:09 12:45:14 MR. BRIDGES: It sounded like it to me. MR. FEE: He's already answered that three 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18 12:46:05 12:46:13 11 for public access, we would look at some of the 12:45:09 20 12:46:02 10 would have a priority that would -- ASTM would put up 12:45:09 19 MR. FEE: No. Q So what other priorities have you had in 16 determining what standards ASTM should make available 12:45:06 Q. Are you taking your lawyer's instruction not Q. Yes or no -- 15 12:45:56 12:46:02 12:45:07 MR. FEE: I did not instruct him to do that. 24 THE WITNESS: I have nothing to add 8 discussion was undergoing in Washington. So I think 12:45:08 18 23 13 12:45:54 7 "reasonably available" meant, and a lot of interesting THE WITNESS: I believe I've answered the 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:45:48 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 12:45:01 12 answer the question however you like. 21 times now. Q Yes or no? 6 standards that are incorporated by reference and what 12:45:03 MR. FEE: No, you don't. You're not getting 17 to give a further answer? 11 12:45:41 12:45:43 12:44:58 11 a yes or no unless that's all you have to say. You 16 9 motivation for why they were interested in this 10 legislation 12:45:34 12:45:41 5 review how the public currently has access to Q. You're not going to answer this question? 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:45:28 8 potential and its consequences and explored the 24 12:44:54 7 14 question. A My previous answer I explained the unintended 23 THE WITNESS: I believe I've answered the 13 Q Yes or no? 12:44:52 25 determining what standards ASTM should make available Page 118 Answer however you deem appropriate. 10 12:45:28 7 12:44:46 12:44:49 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:45:26 5 BY MR BRIDGES: 22 access " MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 question. 4 however you deem appropriate 12:44:46 23 question did ASTM criticize the public access 25 12:45:25 21 12:44:44 24 provisions of the legislation. MR FEE: You can answer that question 17 for public access? 12:44:37 MR. FEE: He doesn't have to mock your 21 then too bad. 3 14 BY MR BRIDGES: 12:44:32 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:45:20 12:45:23 12 16 indicate that ASTM supports their legislation. 18 12:44:26 12:44:28 14 something more to add. Q -- did ASTM criticize the public access 2 provisions of the FIMSA legislation? 6 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 10 1 12:44:04 12:47:27 12:47:32 Q. Do you know where to go to find a publicly 16 available list of standards that the federal 12:47:32 12:47:38 17 government has incorporated by reference? 12:45:16 18 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague as to time. 12:45:17 19 12:45:17 12:47:43 THE WITNESS: The resource that I'm most 20 familiar with that is almost exclusively I've looked 12:45:18 12:47:45 21 at is called STANDARDS.GOV. It's a website that's 12:45:19 22 operated by the National Institute of Standards and 12:45:19 23 Technology and includes a database that they provide 12:45:20 24 to the public as to which standards are incorporated 12:45:20 25 by reference in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations. Page 119 12:47:16 12:47:51 12:47:52 12:47:55 12:48:00 12:48:03 12:48:07 12:48:12 Page 121 31 (Pages 118 - 121) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 12:48:17 1 of working with agencies during the notice of proposed Q How many ASTM standards do you understand are 3 listed at that location? 12:48:17 12:48:21 2 rule-making process 3 4 MR FEE: Objection Vague as to time 5 THE WITNESS: So there's -- if I'm answering 12:48:23 12:51:41 12:51:45 Any agency that comes to us and asks us to 12:51:46 4 put a standard up for public review during the public 12:51:50 12:48:34 5 review period of a rule, we work with them to make 12:48:35 6 that possible So at times we know that a certain 7 many standards, I believe there's 885 or so ASTM 12:48:38 7 number of ASTM standards have been in a notice to 12:52:01 8 standards that are incorporated in the NIST database 12:48:41 8 proposed rulemaking and that the new rule's expected 12:52:04 6 your question exactly as you phrased it to me, how 9 BY MR BRIDGES: 10 12:48:50 Q How many of those standards are currently 11 available at ASTM's reading room? 12 9 to come out, so we can look for it 12:48:50 12:48:52 A Well, if it's in the NIST database, we built 16 reference, just an agency, for instance, might 13 reference? 12:49:06 15 885 ASTM standards that have been also incorporated by 18 different versions of the standard 12:49:10 15 THE WITNESS: So we do -- I'm familiar with a 12:52:24 12:52:29 12:52:31 17 does We look to see -- when we're aware that an ASTM 12:49:25 12:52:39 19 reference in some type of an action, we look to see 12:52:43 20 well, and I believe our reading room has a volume of 12:49:30 20 what version of the standard and what designation of 21 13- to 1,400 ASTM standards that are available to the 12:49:32 21 the standard is being used, and I believe on occasion 23 12:49:36 Q Are every one of the 885 standards from the 25 A I wouldn't be able to answer that 22 if they're using -- proposing to use an outdated 12:52:46 12:52:50 12:52:54 12:49:41 23 version of a standard, or, quite frankly, we've seen 12:49:45 24 NIST database available in the reading room? 12:52:34 18 standard is going to be used and incorporated by 12:49:27 22 public at no cost on our website for their review 12:52:20 12:52:23 MR FEE: Objection Vague 16 couple things that either I do or a member of my staff 12:49:21 So we counted them in the reading room as 12:52:18 14 12:49:17 17 reference the same ASTM standard but reference two 12:52:16 12 considering whether to incorporate an ASTM standard by 12:49:02 14 baseline, and we added in other versions of those same 12:52:08 Q Does ASTM provide assistance to the 11 government in any way when the government is 12:48:55 13 the ASTM reading room using the NIST database as a 19 10 12:51:53 12:51:57 24 errors where they've attempted to use an ASTM biofuel 12:49:51 12:52:59 25 standard, and rather than referencing D6751 they've 12:53:02 12:53:06 Page 122 Page 124 1 specifically. Using the NIST database as a guideline, 12:49:53 1 referenced D56571, gotten the numbers wrong, we will 2 we've incorporated, you know, as much of that as 12:50:02 2 engage with an agency and either make them aware 12:50:04 3 there's a more recent version or make them aware that 3 possible in the reading room. At times I believe we 4 also tried to add a little bit more intelligence to it 12:50:06 5 to determine if an agency was undertaking a subsequent 12:50:09 6 rule-making, and we became aware that the agency had 12:50:18 7 published a new final rule which either changed the 12:50:24 8 reference to an ASTM standard that we had placed in 12:50:27 9 the reading room or added a new ASTM standard to the 10 reading room. 11 12:53:22 6 BY MR BRIDGES: 7 12:53:20 12:53:23 Q Does ASTM bring standards to the attention of 8 the federal government with some sort of 12:53:26 12:53:36 12:50:31 9 recommendation that the federal government incorporate 12:53:38 12:50:38 10 the standard by reference? Then we took steps to add that to the reading 12:53:16 4 what they are trying to reference doesn't make a lot 5 of sense 12:53:41 12:50:39 11 MR FEE: Objection Vague 12:50:42 12 room. It's not an exact science. We don't pay a 12:53:09 12:53:14 12 THE WITNESS: That's not part of what we call 12:53:43 12:53:45 13 vendor to perform the service for us. We rely either 12:50:48 13 engaging federal agencies in Congress What we will 12:53:49 14 exclusively on the NIST database or we -- it's based 12:50:55 14 do is work with agencies and work with Congress to 12:53:53 15 on intelligence that we've gathered about new 16 rulemakings. 17 12:50:58 12:51:01 16 that we're developing in any given area that they Q. How do you gather intelligence about 12:51:03 18 incorporations of ASTM standards by reference? 19 12:51:08 A. Well, as much as possible we read the federal 20 register. I'd like to think we read it on a regular 15 make them aware of the voluntary consensus standards 12:51:14 12:51:17 21 basis, but sometimes it's more infrequent than that. 17 might have an interest But the ultimate decision of 18 whether or not to utilize and reference those 22 So we will search key terms in the federal register to 12:51:24 22 BY MR BRIDGES: 23 see if it's mentioning ASTM and if there's a rule that 12:51:30 23 24 has resulted in the publication of standards. And 12:51:34 25 sometimes we're ahead of it because ASTM has a policy 12:54:08 20 give you a specific example of a time that we have 21 taken an example on -- taken a position on 12:54:02 12:54:07 19 standards we rarely take positions on, and I can't 12:51:20 12:53:56 12:53:59 12:54:14 12:54:17 12:54:23 Q Do any state governments or municipal 12:54:23 24 governments incorporate ASTM standards by reference? 12:51:38 25 Page 123 MR FEE: Objection to form 12:54:26 12:54:30 Page 125 32 (Pages 122 - 125) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding that 12:54:31 2 state governments act on a parallel system of 12:54:32 3 incorporation by reference and that many states may in 4 fact reference ASTM standards in various state 5 regulations. 12:54:41 12:54:45 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 12:54:37 12:54:47 Q. When a state or municipal government 9 that. 12:54:53 12:54:58 3 MR FEE: Okay Great 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 12:55:04 12 reference that the federal government has not 12:55:06 12:55:11 14 MR. FEE: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: That's a very difficult one for (A recess was taken from 12:56 p m 7 to 1:59 p m ) 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record 11 identification ) 12 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grover, I'm handing you 15 E-mail exchange -- strike that 12:55:20 18 to my knowledge, it would require someone to search 50 20 service to track that. So I don't have direct 19 14:01:57 THE WITNESS: Yes 14:01:58 20 BY MR BRIDGES: 21 22 states about proposed rule-making, saying about their 12:55:40 12:55:43 23 14:01:58 22 ASTM; is that correct? 23 interest in referencing standards. So I would be more Q And Mr Pace is head of publications for 14:01:58 14:02:02 A That's correct 14:02:02 24 (Deposition Exhibit 1042 was marked for 25 12:55:49 14:01:24 14:01:26 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1041 ) 12:55:36 12:55:46 14 01:08 14:01:19 14:01:22 17 you and John Pace; is that correct? 12:55:24 18 12:55:29 12:55:33 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:01:06 Q Exhibit 1041 is an E-mail exchange between 21 knowledge. From time to time we do get letters from 24 familiar with that. 14:01:06 14 01:06 14 and Jeff Grove; is that correct? Sorry This is an 16 14:00:46 14:00:47 (Deposition Exhibit 1041 was marked for 12:55:16 19 different states and perhaps use vendors and pay for a 13:52:05 14:00:46 10 12:55:17 17 parallels the NIST database for states. It would -- 12:57:20 13 Exhibit 1041 This is an E-mail exchange between you 12:55:12 16 us because, to my knowledge, there's nothing that 12:57:19 12:57:21 9 at 13:59 12:55:00 11 state or municipal government has incorporated by 12:57:17 12:57:18 6 12:54:47 Are you aware of any ASTM standards that a 13 incorporated by reference? MR BRIDGES: Why don't we take our break 2 now 5 12:56 8 incorporates an ASTM standard by reference -- strike 10 1 identification ) 14:02:33 14 02:33 Page 126 1 Q. I guess my question is are you aware of any 12:55:49 2 ASTM standards that a state or municipal government 3 has incorporated by reference that the federal 12:55:52 12:55:56 4 government has not incorporated by reference? 5 6 12:56:00 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any. 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 8 9 12:56:06 A. I'm not aware of any. 10 12:56:11 12 standards to put in the reading room. Q. I just want to go back to the topic of 14:03:27 8 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 14:03:35 THE WITNESS: I'd be speculating. I don't 14:03:41 12 14:03:43 14:03:43 Q. You'd have no idea? 14:03:43 MR. FEE: Same objection. 14:03:46 14 THE WITNESS: I don't. 14:03:48 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:56:49 16 18 12:56:56 12:56:58 12:57:00 12:57:03 23 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 24 THE WITNESS: No, not that I'm aware of. Not 14:03:51 Q. Did you discuss with anybody at ASTM in 17 preparation for your -- strike that. 12:56:56 21 place in ASTM's reading room. Are there any other 25 that I can think of. 14:03:27 Q. What does "HF" refer to in Exhibit 1042? 13 20 priorities you have in determining what standards to 22 priorities that you have not discussed? 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:56:41 12:56:51 A. That's fine. 14:03:26 14:03:26 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12:56:49 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 have a guess. Q. Okay. Give me a few more minutes, and we'll 18 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1042.) 12:56:43 A. Before you ask the next question, I would 17 take a break for lunch. 14:02:43 4 12:56:31 12:56:39 14 like to notice you that I would like to take a break 16 14:02:33 14:02:41 3 who reported to you; is that correct? 12:56:33 Q. I want to go back and continue the thread of 15 at the appropriate point here. This is an E-mail from you to Sarah Petre, 9 12:56:09 11 questions about priorities and determining what 13 MR. BRIDGES: I'm handing you Exhibit 1042. 2 7 12:56:09 Q. You're not aware of a single one? 1 5 12:55:58 MR. FEE: Objection to form. Page 128 12:57:05 Did you review this E-mail in preparation for 19 your testimony today? 20 14:03:58 14:04:00 A. I don't recall, no. I don't think I 21 discussed this, no. 22 14:03:51 14:03:55 14:04:05 14:04:07 Q. I asked if you reviewed the E-mail in 23 preparation for your testimony today. 14:04:12 14:04:14 24 A. I did not. I just reviewed it now. 25 12:57:11 12:57:14 Q. Does HF, as an acronym, apply to any public Page 127 14:04:16 14:04:19 Page 129 33 (Pages 126 - 129) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 relations firms that ASTM uses? 2 6 outside for that MR BRIDGES: Going off the record THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 14:06:30 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going back on the 14:07:47 14:07:50 MR FEE: I'm going to instruct the witness 14:11:05 Q. Mr. Grove, do you recall having seen MR BRIDGES: It keeps No 2 unredacted? MR FEE: Yes 22 MR BRIDGES: I do have a couple of voir dire (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1043.) 14:11:17 THE WITNESS: This is not a document that 21 14:11:21 Q. It was produced to us by ASTM. Do you know 23 document? 14:08:17 24 14:08:18 I'm going to instruct you not to answer that 14:08:21 14:11:31 1 3 14:08:29 THE WITNESS: I don't. THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Fee, did ASTM provide in 14:08:31 4 by reference? 5 any privilege log, any records of communications with 14:08:38 5 MR. FEE: I have no idea. 8 MR. BRIDGES: If it wishes to protect 7 14:08:43 14:08:45 12 14:08:54 14:08:56 MR. FEE: Well, we'll certainly give you a 13 privilege log at least for this document. 14 14:08:57 14:13:07 14:13:09 14:13:11 A. Just about finished. 12 (The witness further reviewed Exhibit 1043.) THE WITNESS: Great. I'm sorry. Could you 14 repeat it? 14:09:00 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16 suggests to me that there are relevant and responsive 17 communications in discovery in this case with 14:09:03 14:09:06 18 non-lawyers as to which I'm hearing some work product 19 claims are being asserted, and it appears to me that 14:09:25 14:09:48 24 MR. FEE: Objection. 25 I'll instruct you not to answer to the extent 14:09:50 17 19 14:09:42 14:13:14 14:13:14 14:13:19 14:13:21 Q. Does this document pertain -- strike that. Does this document pertain to incorporation 14:13:21 14:13:24 14:13:26 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. The document 20 speaks for itself. 21 14:09:36 Q. Mr. Grove, has ASTM ever retained the firm of 16 14:09:15 18 by reference? 14:09:19 20 those communications in which the client participated 23 Fleishman Hillard? Q. Do you need more time to determine if this 10 relates to incorporation -- 14:08:59 15 privilege log because it strikes me as though -- this 22 14:12:04 14:13:07 13 14:08:56 MR. BRIDGES: Well, I'm asking for a 21 should be on a privilege log. 14:11:49 11 10 Hillard, we would expect to see that on a privilege 11 log. 14:11:48 (The witness further reviewed Exhibit 1043.) 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:08:50 9 9 information about communications regarding Fleishman 14:11:40 14:11:42 MR. FEE: Read the document to answer that 6 question. 14:08:42 7 14:11:36 14:11:40 Q. Does this document pertain to incorporations 3 6 Fleishman Hillard? 14:11:32 14:11:34 Page 132 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:08:23 14:11:26 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 25 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 14:08:21 2 question. I instruct you not to answer. 14:11:21 22 the circumstances in which ASTM possessed this 14:08:15 Page 130 1 14:11:17 14:11:18 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:08:11 14:08:13 Q Does HF -- is that a mistake for "FH"? 14:11:05 14:11:08 19 I've seen that I recall. 21 MR FEE: Objection 14:11:05 18 14:08:04 14:08:10 20 14:11:05 17 14:08:00 18 version that keeps Item No 2 of this E-mail (Deposition Exhibit 1043 was marked for identification.) 14:10:17 14:10:19 16 Exhibit 1043 before? 14:07:56 17 ASTM102361, and we'll replace it with a redacted 12 15 14:07:54 16 to here as "HF call," and we're going to claw back THE WITNESS: I don't know. 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:07:53 15 not to answer any questions regarding what's referred 25 14:07:49 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 13 to 2:06 p m ) 23 questions on this 14:10:12 14:10:14 10 11 11 19 unredacted 14:10:12 Q. Do you know whether American Petroleum 9 Institute had retained Fleishman Hillard? 14:04:57 (A recess was taken from 2:04 p m 24 8 14:04:53 14:10:07 14:10:09 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:04:52 10 13 record at 14:06 14:10:02 THE WITNESS: Based on that direction, I'm 6 unable to answer your question. 14 04:48 8 14 5 14:04:46 7 9 2:04 14:09:58 4 retentions, you can disclose any others. 14:04:45 MR FEE: Actually, it might We need to go 14:09:53 14:09:56 3 connection with litigation. Excluding those 14:04:43 Q No, that would not 5 2 firm that was at the direction of counsel in 14:04:42 3 attorney-client discussions 4 1 that your answer would reveal any retention of any 14:04:32 A I think that would be in the scope of 14:13:27 14:13:30 THE WITNESS: My understanding of the 22 article, it's about the relationship between building 23 codes and standards. So I don't consider that 24 incorporation by reference. 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:09:51 Page 131 14:13:37 14:13:38 14:13:43 14:13:47 14:14:02 Page 133 34 (Pages 130 - 133) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 3 A. I do not. 4 14:14:06 Q. Do you know what the publication is that's 5 indicated at the bottom? 6 A. I'd speculate that it's an architectural 14:14:07 9 identification.) 14:14:58 Q. Do you recognize this document? 14:17:22 MR. FEE: I'd have to see what's underneath 8 there to be able to say anything. 9 14:14:59 MR. BRIDGES: Someone on your team redacted, 10 and I'd like an answer to that at our next break, 11 please. 12 MR. FEE: That's not going to happen. 13 MR. BRIDGES: Well, then we're going to 14:15:38 14 reserve the right to recall Mr. Grove back for further Q. What material is blacked out at the top of 14:15:39 14:15:43 17 18 To the extent that would require you to 14:15:44 14:15:46 19 disclose any privileged information, I would instruct 20 you not to answer that. 14:15:47 14:15:49 THE WITNESS: And I don't know. 14:17:32 14:15:57 Q. So I have to say I'm curious as to why 17 14:17:40 MR. FEE: It doesn't appear that way to me 18 but... 14:17:52 Q. Mr. Grove, the underlying E-mails from Emily 14:16:05 25 Page 134 24 14:18:03 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: Yes. 14:16:13 1 BY MR. BRIDGES 2 Wendler are not within ASTM's organization; is that 14:16:14 2 5 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 14:16:18 14:16:22 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 14:16:28 14:16:32 14:16:36 13 Maureen Brodoff is an attorney and acts as an attorney 14:16:42 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16 14:16:38 14:16:46 Q. No. I'm asking did any of those three 17 persons, Ms. Brodoff, Ms. Carli, and Mr. Wendler act 18 as a lawyer for ASTM, to your knowledge? 14:16:48 14:16:51 19 MR. FEE: Same objections. 20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 22 14:16:54 Q. On July 21, 2011, was ASTM considering filing MR. FEE: Objection. I instruct you not to 25 answer that question. 14:18:33 14:18:38 12 THE WITNESS: And I don't recall. 13 (Deposition Exhibit 1045 was marked for 14 identification.) 14:18:40 14:19:29 14:19:29 14:19:30 16 Q. Mr. Grove, have you seen Exhibit 1045 before? 17 A. I'm familiar with parts of the E-mail that I 18 was -- sent to me. 14:18:35 14:19:30 14:19:41 14:19:44 Q. You see in the middle Mr. Thomas sent a 14:19:46 20 message saying, "Dear exec members," and the 14:19:50 21 addressees of that E-mail are above the squiggly line 14:16:57 23 a lawsuit against Public Resource or Carl Malamud? 24 9 communications, I would instruct you not to answer. 19 14:16:56 14:18:28 14:18:31 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:16:46 14:18:25 10 If you have an answer otherwise, you can go ahead and 11 answer. THE WITNESS: My understanding is that 14 for ASME -- excuse me, for NFPA. To the extent your answer to that question 14:18:22 14:18:25 7 would require you to disclose any communications in 8 anticipation of litigation or attorney-client 14:16:27 14:18:14 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 6 14:16:23 14:16:26 10 conclusion. Calls for speculation. Beyond the scope 12 14:18:12 4 would require a redaction in this case? Do you know? 5 14:16:23 Q. And none of them was an attorney for ASTM; is 11 of his designation. 14:18:12 Q. What would you put in a cover E-mail to 3 persons at other organizations in July 21, 2011 that MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Compound. 8 that correct? 14:18:05 14:18:08 Page 136 1 correct? Maureen Brodoff, Lorraine Carli and Joseph 4 14:17:57 14:18:00 23 United States; correct? 25 between you and people at three other organizations; 7 14:17:52 21 Bremer, she's someone we discussed earlier who worked 14:15:59 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:17:42 14:17:47 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 24 something was blacked out because this is an E-mail 14:16:18 14:17:34 14:17:37 22 for the administrative conference of the 14:15:57 14:17:33 15 question because this appears to be a wrongful 20 14:15:54 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:17:32 16 redaction to me at first blush. MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 14:17:29 14:17:31 14:15:38 THE WITNESS: I do. 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 correct? 14:17:24 14:17:26 14:15:15 13 14:17:17 14:17:19 14:15:38 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1044.) 23 MR. BRIDGES: Can I get a representation from 7 14:14:58 12 21 14:17:16 6 litigation against Public Resource? MR. BRIDGES: I'm handing you Exhibit 1044. 16 Page 1044? 14:17:13 14:17:15 5 counsel that this document was in anticipation of 14:14:13 (Deposition Exhibit 1044 was marked for 15 4 14:14:23 8 11 THE WITNESS: That would relate to -MR. FEE: I instruct you not to answer that 3 question. 14:14:09 7 magazine based on the name. 10 14:14:02 14:14:04 1 2 Q. Do you know who the author of that document 2 is? 14:19:53 14:16:57 22 in the middle of the page. Do you see that? 14:17:04 23 A. I do. 24 Q. Seeing that, do you understand what Mr. -- 14:17:10 14:17:11 25 what the reference to "exec members" meant? Page 135 14:20:00 14:20:03 14:20:04 14:20:08 Page 137 35 (Pages 134 - 137) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 14:20:13 2 THE WITNESS: I'd speculate that he's 14:20:16 3 referring to members of our board of directors that 4 served on the executive committee. 14:20:22 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 14:20:18 2 But anything else, you could disclose 3 14:22:47 14:22:50 THE WITNESS: That would fall outside of my 14:22:53 4 scope of government relations and would be more of a 14:20:26 Q. And do you recognize the names in the "To" 1 not to disclose that portion of your -- of the answer 5 legal issue 14:20:26 6 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:23:01 7 field of that E-mail in the middle of the page as 14:20:28 7 8 members of ASTM's board of directors? 14:20:32 8 not a government relations issue in that reference? 9 10 A. At that time, yes. 14:20:38 9 Q. And was Mary McKiel at the time on the board 11 of directors of ASTM? 14:20:40 14:20:43 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Thomas referred in his E-mail to being 14:20:50 A. I see that. 17 14:20:54 14:20:58 Q. What is DIN? MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I believe that that would refer 14:21:06 14:21:10 20 to the national standards body of Germany, known as 14:21:16 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 14:21:12 Q. What interest does ASTM have in being Q. If any. 6 A. I would -- I would think that that involves a Q. Are you saying it refers to a DIN legal 14:21:46 12 Q. It does? 14:22:04 14 THE WITNESS: I'm just not certain. 14:22:06 14:22:09 14:22:11 Q. Are you aware that DIN has filed a lawsuit 14:23:53 14:23:58 14:24:05 14:24:09 14:24:14 6 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 14:24:16 To the extent you have an understanding of 14:24:17 14:24:18 9 instructing you not to disclose those If you have an 14:24:21 14:22:13 Q. In your government relations role, what 14:22:19 20 understanding do you have about discussions of ASTM 16 deposition 17 19 14:22:29 20 14:22:35 14:22:40 To the extent your understanding is based 14:24:31 21 14:22:41 23 14:22:42 14:24:34 14:24:37 MR BRIDGES: I'll show you during a break MR FEE: Okay Well, I -- 14:24:38 14:24:41 MR BRIDGES: I'm not going to take 14:24:41 14:24:42 MR FEE: I think it's beyond the scope of 24 his deposition 25 14:22:45 Page 139 14:24:34 14:24:34 MR FEE: Which topic do you think this 22 deposition time to go through it 25 upon counsel -- legal counsel, I would instruct you 14:24:31 Q Well, I'm also asking you in your role as a 18 relates to? 14:22:24 21 with DIN regarding strategy as mentioned in this 14 14:24:24 14:24:27 14:24:30 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 15 representative of ASTM for purposes of this 14:22:11 17 against Mr. Malamud's organization? 24 Q Ms McKiel, at the top of the E-mail thread 2 says, "I believe the ASTM strategy to this point has 12 answer MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. MR. FEE: Objection. Page 140 11 some idea what Ms McKiel is referencing here, you can 13 23 14:23:53 8 the strategy based on legal communications, I'm 14:22:03 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:23:47 14:23:51 10 independent understanding of an ASTM strategy and have A. It could. 14:23:45 7 14:22:00 11 22 E-mail? 14:23:41 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no Tom works 4 strategy" in the context of this E-mail thread, to 14:21:57 19 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 3 proven best " What do you understand "the ASTM 14:21:54 A. I'm not aware of that. 14:23:36 14:23:39 1 14:21:33 14:21:48 18 14:23:30 20 5 have been? 7 legal issue. It's the only -- I'm not aware of 16 Q Does Mr O'Brien work in the field of 19 government relations apart from legal issues? 14:21:24 25 BY MR BRIDGES: Page 138 14:21:42 8 consulting with DIN on strategy. 14:23:27 14:23:30 24 issues 14:21:42 5 10 issue? 18 14:23:18 23 on legal issues, and I work on government relations 14:21:39 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 9 THE WITNESS: Our attorney, Tom O'Brien 22 14:21:31 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 3 Vague. Ambiguous. MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 14:21:21 25 body of Germany regarding strategy and next steps in 2 14:23:14 14:23:16 14:21:18 24 involved in discussions with the national standards 1 relation to Carl Malamud? Q Who else would be familiar with whether it is 14 a government relations issue? 21 It's beyond the scope of his designation as well 14:21:16 14:23:09 14:23:14 17 BY MR BRIDGES: 19 14:23:06 14:23:10 16 14:21:03 14:23:03 THE WITNESS: It's not a government relations 15 14:21:02 18 21 DIN. 13 14:23:01 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 12 BY MR BRIDGES: 14 involved in discussions with DIN regarding strategy 16 Q Are you saying that this is a legal issue and 11 issue that I'm familiar with 14:20:46 15 and next steps. Do you see that? 10 14:22:55 14:22:57 14:24:44 14:24:46 But you can answer to the extent you know and 14:24:47 Page 141 36 (Pages 138 - 141) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 won't disclose privileged communications. 2 14:24:48 THE WITNESS: I mean, once again, I'm not in 14:24:52 3 this communication chain between Jim and the executive 4 committee, and it's not a government relations issue 5 I'm working on. 7 14:24:56 14:25:00 14:25:03 14:25:06 THE WITNESS: I don't. 12 (Deposition Exhibit 1046 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 14:25:08 MR. BRIDGES: I'll show you Exhibit 1046. 14:25:10 14:25:58 Q. Have you seen this document before? 16 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1046.) 17 THE WITNESS: So the world justice project, 14:26:03 14:26:25 14:26:25 18 the origination of the E-mail, which I received, yes, 14:26:27 19 I believe I reviewed that document. But from beyond 20 that point in the E-mail chain, I do not have 23 25 14:26:30 14:26:35 14:26:38 Q. Did you review this document in preparation 14:28:58 Q. So Mr. Thomas was lying in that statement? 10 MR. FEE: Objection. Mischaracterizes his 12 14:29:07 MR. BRIDGES: I'll withdraw it. 14:29:08 Q. You didn't answer my question, Mr. Grove. A. Okay. 14:26:41 15 Q. My question is what do you understand to have 16 been the basis of Mr. Thomas' statement in that 17 sentence? 14:26:50 14:29:17 18 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 19 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to answer 20 that. I apologize. MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 4 speculation. 5 14:27:01 THE WITNESS: Well, my understanding is that 14:27:15 14:27:19 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:27:26 Q. Who is the Steele, S-t-e-e-l-e, that the 10 first line refers to? 14:27:13 14:29:24 14:27:26 14:29:30 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 14:29:32 Page 144 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 12 THE WITNESS: I would speculate that it would 14:27:32 13 be Rob Steele, who's the secretary general of ISO at 16 14:27:37 14:27:50 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:29:48 Q What other knowledge do you have other than 5 direct knowledge? 14:27:54 18 had a measurable impact on our finances." Do you see 6 MR FEE: Same objection 7 THE WITNESS: So to date, I'm aware, based on 14:29:52 14:29:53 14:29:57 9 publications, that the act of putting our standards 14:29:59 14:27:58 14:28:04 12 which has produced some harm to ASTM 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:30:25 Q The vice president of sales and publications 14:30:26 A That's correct 14:30:28 17 Q Tell me everything you remember about those A Yesterday 20 Q Did you have any conversations before 14:28:05 21 yesterday on that topic? 22 A. January 2013. I'm not aware that we did an 14:28:14 22 A Not that I recall 23 Q When is the first time you learned of a drag 14:28:26 14:30:31 14:30:37 Q. Was that your understanding at the time? Q. What do you understand to have been the basis 14:30:28 18 conversations When did you have those conversations? A. I do see that. 14:28:20 14:30:25 16 21 23 analysis that I would be able to comment on based at 14:30:08 14:30:14 19 14:28:04 14:30:04 11 for ASTM, which has complicated business execution, 20 25 14:29:48 14:29:51 15 is John Pace; is that correct? 14:27:50 17 the sentence, "To date, all of Carl's posting have not 24 that point of time. 14:29:39 14:29:42 14 Q. On the third line of Mr. Thomas' E-mail is 19 that? 14:27:35 14:27:42 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: THE WITNESS: Again, I don't have direct 10 into the public domain has caused a drag on revenue 11 14 this time. 14:29:24 14:29:27 8 conversations with our vice president for sales and 14:27:30 14:29:20 Q. When did ASTM first notice a measurable 2 knowledge of such impact 4 6 this mentions litigation and copyright. I would think 9 14:26:53 1 14:26:56 14:27:04 7 it would be legal counsel, Tom O'Brien. 14:29:17 14:29:20 23 impact on its finances from the activities of 25 Q. Who at ASTM would have the most knowledge 14:29:11 14:29:14 24 Mr. Malamud and Public Resource? 2 about the content on the front page of Exhibit 1046? 3 14:29:08 14:29:10 Page 142 1 14:29:02 14:29:07 14 22 14:26:44 A. I did not. 14:28:49 14:28:53 8 directly available from ASTM. 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:26:41 24 to testify today? 14:28:44 13 14:25:59 15 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:28:39 7 of our licensed distributors and outside of being 11 testimony. 14:25:58 21 recollection of being involved in this. 14:28:37 4 an impact and a drag on ASTM's revenues due to 9 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 11 THE WITNESS: I understand that there's been 6 that some of our standards are now available outside 14:25:00 8 that's mentioned in that E-mail to be a government 9 relations strategy? 14:28:35 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 5 confusion in business execution issues due to the fact Q. So you did not interpret the ASTM strategy 10 14:28:32 2 14:24:52 3 14:24:59 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 1 of Mr. Thomas' statement in that sentence? 14:30:43 14:30:45 14:30:49 14:30:54 24 on revenue for ASTM caused by either Mr Malamud or a 25 Public Resource? Was it yesterday? 14:28:30 Page 143 14:30:58 14:31:05 Page 145 37 (Pages 142 - 145) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 A I wouldn't be able to give you a specific 1 14:31:16 2 date, but I understand that that's been the impact to 3 date just through communications and just generally Q. Why not? 2 14:31:18 14:33:44 MR. FEE: Same objection. Calls for expert 3 testimony. 14:31:20 14:33:47 14:33:48 4 being a member of senior staff at ASTM 14:31:25 4 5 14:31:29 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:33:52 6 Q. Why is it hard to quantify? 14:33:52 7 MR. FEE: Same objection. 8 THE WITNESS: You'd be speculating based on Q When is the first time you learned of a drag 6 on revenue for ASTM caused by either Mr Malamud or a 7 Public Resource? 8 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 9 Vague 10 14:31:31 14:31:37 14:31:38 14:33:50 14:33:56 9 lost sales. 14:31:41 THE WITNESS: The first time I've learned of 11 it is probably in the last year THE WITNESS: It's hard to quantify. 14:33:58 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:31:53 11 14:31:54 14:33:57 14:34:00 Q. Okay. What's the evidence of lost sales? 14:34:00 12 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:31:58 12 MR. FEE: Same objection. 13 Q How did you learn of it? 14:31:58 13 THE WITNESS: So based on my conversation 14 A Well, I was aware that there was -- some 14 with John Pace, the time that's spent in executing 14:32:03 15 number of our standards have been put into the public 16 who are confused or misled to believe that these are 14:32:12 17 that this was beginning to have an impact on ASTM, and 14:34:06 14:34:08 15 business with customers and with members of the public 14:32:06 16 domain I've heard from -- reports from John Pace 14:34:03 14:32:18 17 the official ASTM standards that are available causes 18 I just can't recall exactly when that was and in what 14:32:24 14:32:27 19 to execute the types of distribution in sales 14:34:18 18 a drag in a time on him and his staff from being able 19 setting, but it was general knowledge at that point 14:34:27 14:34:31 20 Q "General knowledge"? 14:32:30 20 agreements that allow us to fund our enterprise. 21 A My general knowledge 14:32:31 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 22 Q Who else had that general knowledge within 23 ASTM? 22 14:32:33 14:34:37 14:34:42 Q. It sounds as though what Mr. Pace described 14:34:42 23 to you was an investment of time dealing with members 14:32:35 24 MR FEE: Objection Vague 25 24 of the public who were confused or misled. Is that THE WITNESS: I would assume Jim Thomas 14:32:36 25 one component of the harm that ASTM has suffered? 14:32:41 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:32:47 2 Q. Who else? 3 A. I would assume Tom O'Brien. 4 Q. Who else? 5 A. I'd be purely speculating beyond that. 6 Q. Whom did you consult with to prepare yourself 1 14:32:47 14:32:49 14:32:52 10 14:33:00 14:33:03 14:33:06 14:33:08 THE WITNESS: As I stated earlier, John Pace. 14:33:10 14:33:15 12 Q. Anybody else? 13 A. Tom O'Brien was there, or has been involved. 14 Q. Did he furnish you information for your 15 testimony today? 14:33:16 14:33:18 14:33:20 A. No. 17 Q. Who else? 18 A. That would be it. 19 Q. How many dollars has ASTM lost because of the 22 testimony. 23 14:35:13 6 Q Well, what sales does ASTM believe did not 14:35:16 7 occur because of the activities of defendants in this 9 14:35:21 14:35:28 14:35:32 MR FEE: Objection Calls for expert 10 testimony 14:35:33 14:35:34 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding that 14:35:35 13 of the documents that have been put in the public 14:35:48 14:35:52 16 88,500 downloads of information that's in the public 14:33:22 14:35:55 17 domain would have been captured by ASTM under our 14:33:25 18 distribution and sales possibilities 20 14:33:34 14:36:06 14:36:11 14:33:31 19 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:33:33 14:35:38 14:35:43 14 domain, and my conversations with John Pace indicate 15 that it's reasonable to assume that some of those 14:33:21 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for expert A That might be one Correct 12 something like 88,500 accesses have been made to some 16 21 Q I'm just asking to explore the testimony 11 14:33:15 20 activities of defendants? 14:35:13 5 8 case? MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:35:09 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 4 14:32:57 14:36:14 Q What information does ASTM have about lost 14:36:14 14:33:39 21 sales apart from the number of accesses to the 14:36:17 22 defendant's website and to the Internet archive? 14:33:37 THE WITNESS: At this time, to my knowledge, 14:35:05 Page 148 14:35:08 2 testimony Mischaracterizes his testimony 7 for testimony today about the harms to ASTM from the 9 MR FEE: Objection Calls for expert 14:34:44 14:34:58 Page 146 8 defendant's activities? 14:34:12 14:34:15 14:36:21 23 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 24 we're not able to quantify the loss. 14:33:40 24 Subject of expert testimony 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:33:44 25 Sorry Go ahead Page 147 14:36:26 14:36:29 14:36:32 Page 149 38 (Pages 146 - 149) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: I don't have anything 2 additional. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 14:36:33 14:36:35 14:36:36 Q. And you're here as a corporate representative 3 14:36:36 5 of ASTM to provide the information available to ASTM 6 on that topic; correct? 7 1 failed to perform the way that they expected them to. 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 Q. What other harms? 14:36:37 14:39:12 MR. FEE: Same objections. 14:36:37 5 14:39:04 14:39:12 14:39:15 THE WITNESS: Well, I would be concerned -- I MR. FEE: Objection. He's here to provide 14:39:21 14:36:39 7 life, and safety. I would certainly be concerned if 14:36:42 8 testimony regarding all the topics we identified 8 some of these documents that contain factual and other 9 earlier today. Of course, we'll have expert testimony 14:36:42 14:39:23 14:39:30 14:36:45 10 injury or loss of life because of the sensitive, 11 You can answer. 14:36:47 11 important role that our standards play in protecting 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 14:36:50 12 people in society. 14:36:55 14:39:33 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. So I need to know every other fact you're 14:36:55 15 aware of that pertains to harms that ASTM has suffered 16 from the defendants. So, please, I'll take as much 14 14:39:45 14:39:47 THE WITNESS: I can't think of additional 14:37:08 17 harms at this time. 14:37:11 18 aware of that pertains to the harm that ASTM has 14:39:45 MR. FEE: Same objections. 16 14:39:37 14:39:40 Q. What other harms to ASTM? 14:36:57 15 14:37:06 17 time as we need. Tell me every other fact that you're 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:39:58 14:40:00 14:40:05 19 suffered as a consequence of the defendants. 14:37:15 19 20 14:37:18 20 "I didn't buy the standard I was planning to buy MR. FEE: Objection to form. Objection. 21 Calls for expert testimony. Objection to the extent 22 it calls for a narrative. Objection as to vague. 14:37:19 14:37:21 23 Now, we're talking about harms as opposed to financial 24 harms? That's how I understand the question. 25 Can you read that back just to make sure I 1 don't miss anything? 14:37:34 (Record read.) 3 MR. BRIDGES: I'm sorry. Why do we need 14:38:01 14:38:02 8 (Record read.) 9 MR. FEE: Objection to form. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't have knowledge of that. 14:40:16 14:38:02 Page 152 Q. Does anybody at ASTM have knowledge of that 14:40:22 14:40:24 3 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 4 MR. BRIDGES: I'm asking him as a corporate 14:40:27 14:40:31 14:40:32 6 MR. FEE: Same objection. THE WITNESS: So based on my conversations 14:40:34 14:40:35 8 with John Pace, he -- it's my understanding that there 14:40:36 9 is this confusion with certain customers and certain 14:40:43 14:38:03 10 members of the public that has caused this inability 14:40:47 14:38:02 THE WITNESS: Well, ASTM is known globally 11 for the quality and technical excellence of its 14:40:20 14:40:22 7 14:38:02 MR. FEE: I think that's it. Okay. 10 14:38:02 14:40:10 14:40:13 23 5 representative. MR. FEE: Oh, I don't want to hear the 7 objections. 22 Public Resource or the Internet archive"? 2 type of communication? 14:38:02 14:40:05 14:40:08 21 because I could find it for free on the Internet from 1 14:37:34 4 to -- just if you got objections, go ahead and state 6 Q. Has ASTM heard from any customers that said, 14:37:34 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 150 2 5 them. 14:37:28 14:37:30 14:39:25 9 errors contributed in any way to property damage, 10 on this subject as well. 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:39:19 6 know the important role our standards play in health, 14:38:05 12 documents because we have a very robust standards 14:38:08 13 development and quality control process. My 14:38:14 14 understanding, and based on my direct knowledge of 14:38:19 11 to execute sales on a timely basis. 14:40:51 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:40:54 13 Q. Well, what customers? 14:40:54 14 A. I'm not able to answer that at this time. 14:40:59 15 viewing certain documents that have been put in the 14:38:21 15 Q. What members of the public? 14:41:06 16 public domain, these documents contain errors. I've 14:38:22 16 A. I'm not able to answer that at this time. 14:41:09 17 Q. Did Mr. Pace put a dollar amount on his 17 seen standards where tables have been upside down. 14:38:29 18 I've seen tables and columns and rows that don't align 19 properly. 20 14:38:34 14:38:39 So if there's a real risk to ASTM's 19 the defendants' actions? 14:38:41 21 reputation and to ASTM's standing in the global 20 14:38:44 MR. FEE: Objection to the extent that calls 14:38:48 22 23 stakeholders utilize these documents with the 14:38:52 23 no. 14:38:58 25 official ASTM documents, and products and materials 14:41:25 14:41:26 THE WITNESS: In my communications with him, 14:41:29 14:41:31 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:39:00 25 Page 151 14:41:19 14:41:23 21 for expert testimony. 22 economy, if customers or the public or other 24 expectation and understanding that these were the 14:41:17 18 estimate of lost revenues to ASTM as a consequence of 14:41:33 Q. As a representative of ASTM at this 14:41:33 Page 153 39 (Pages 150 - 153) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 deposition, does ASTM have any estimate of the dollar 14:41:37 3 defendants' actions? 4 14:41:42 14:41:45 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for expert 14:41:46 5 testimony. Let me see if that's really a topic that 6 he's been designated on. 14:41:48 MR. BRIDGES: He may answer. 14:41:59 8 MR. FEE: Hold on. I'm waiting to see if 14:42:00 9 that's actually a topic he's been designated on. 14:42:01 MR. BRIDGES: Make the objections, and if 14:42:08 11 it's superfluous and he hasn't been designated on. 14:42:11 12 I'd like to go ahead and get an answer. 13 14:42:11 MR. FEE: No. If you want to take off the 14:42:12 14 prelude to your question there, then I'm happy to have 14:42:14 15 his answer without the prelude, but if you're going to 16 have -17 18 Q. Does ASTM have any estimate of the dollar 14:42:17 23 14:42:23 14:42:25 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 14:42:27 14:42:30 Q. Does ASTM have any facts in its possession 5 14:42:39 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 7 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of. 14:42:57 9 defendants' actions? Go ahead 14:44:11 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure, no 14:44:12 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 8 9 10 14:44:13 Q Was it more than three years ago? 14:44:13 MR FEE: Same objections 14:44:16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure 14:44:17 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 12 14:44:18 Q Was it more than two weeks ago? 13 MR FEE: Same objection 14 14:44:18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure 14:44:21 14:44:22 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:44:23 Q Do you know whether ASTM had any knowledge of 17 errors in connection with defendants posting of ASTM 18 standards more than a week ago? 19 21 14:44:31 MR FEE: Same objection -- objections, I 14:44:35 14:44:36 THE WITNESS: More than a week ago, I believe 14:44:40 Q When did you first learn of any errors in 14:44:40 14:43:17 Page 156 A. I first learned of it by hearing of it in the Q. How many standards posted by defendants 4 contain errors? 5 14:44:51 14:44:53 7 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 14:45:03 14:45:10 14:45:14 10 significant errors. 14:43:22 14:45:21 14:45:28 12 Q. What are the significant ones? 14:45:28 A. To industries that rely on quality 14:45:30 13 14 14:43:26 14 information, yes, I would say so. 18 14:43:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 Q. Was it more than a year ago? 14:45:38 17 correctly, the variables, it is displaying false 14:45:42 14:43:55 14:43:57 14:43:58 14:44:00 14:44:02 14:45:34 18 information. That seems like that could be an error. 19 Q. How long ago was it, to your best estimate? THE WITNESS: I'm not certain. A. Well, if a table and a chart don't align 14:43:53 21 23 Q. Tell me some of the most significant ones. 16 14:43:51 20 22 Calls for speculation. 15 14:43:36 A. I'm just not able to give you a time line. 19 I'm not certain. 14:45:32 14:43:31 When did ASTM first become aware of any 16 errors in connection with the posting of ASTM 17 standards by the defendant? 14:45:08 8 would be extremely difficult to do a complete 14:43:26 15 14:45:01 THE WITNESS: My understanding is that it 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. When did you first -- sorry. 14:44:56 14:45:00 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:43:19 THE WITNESS: Fortunately, not at this time. 14:44:46 2 last year. I first viewed it yesterday. 3 14:44:38 14:44:39 23 BY MR BRIDGES: 1 14:44:23 14:44:26 9 analysis, but based on quick analysis, we found 14:43:15 11 testimony and speculation. 12 14:43:05 14:43:10 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for expert 14:44:10 5 6 designation. Calls for speculation. 14:43:05 Q. Is ASTM aware of any property damage, injury, 8 or loss of life that has occurred because of the 10 14:42:50 14:42:51 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 designation as well 24 14:42:46 4 Calls for expert testimony. Vague. 14:44:08 14:42:30 25 defendants' posting of ASTM standards? Page 154 1 that suggest to ASTM that it has lost money as a 3 14:44:08 MR FEE: It's beyond the scope his 22 so, yes 2 consequence of defendants' actions? 14:44:04 20 should say 14:42:26 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 14:42:20 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for expert 22 testimony. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure 16 14:42:16 19 amount of lost revenues to it as a consequence of 21 14:42:16 14:42:16 MR. BRIDGES: Okay. Sure. 20 defendants' actions? MR FEE: Same objections 2 6 14:41:52 7 10 1 3 2 amount of lost revenues to it as a consequence of the Q. What other errors are really significant in 20 your mind? 14:45:52 21 A. I'm not certain. 22 Q. Can you think of any other significant errors 14:45:53 23 in defendants posting of standards? 24 14:45:54 14:45:56 MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the 25 scope of his designation. 14:44:02 Page 155 14:45:44 14:45:49 14:45:58 14:45:59 Page 157 40 (Pages 154 - 157) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 But go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: A table or chart appearing 14:46:00 1 4 reading it or displaying it, that's significant to me. Q. That's a significant error? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is that error going to lead to death or 14:46:05 14:46:14 14:48:33 11 will immediately make any changes that ASTM calls to 14:46:32 Q. And is ASTM really concerned about death or 14:46:36 14:46:41 14:46:42 14:46:56 14:46:58 Q. Are you really concerned about it? MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: Yes. A. Thank you. 14 Q. Is that clear to you? 15 14:48:43 14:48:44 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14:48:45 14:48:48 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:48:50 Q. Do you think that Public Resource has an 14:46:59 MR. FEE: Objection. 14:48:52 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:49:02 14:47:02 23 Q. Is that ASTM's view of Public Resource? 24 MR. FEE: Objection. Form. Calls for 14:47:02 14:48:57 14:49:01 14:47:02 Q. Does it frighten you? 14:48:50 19 interest in posting standards to the Internet in a way 21 14:49:02 14:49:06 25 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. 14:49:08 Page 160 Page 158 1 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 2 THE WITNESS: Frighten? It could. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 14:47:05 14:47:10 14:47:17 Q. Did it frighten you so much to ensure that 14:47:20 6 immediate correction to preserve life and safety of 7 property? 8 14:47:23 14:47:26 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 14:47:27 14:47:29 9 10 11 THE WITNESS: No. 14:47:38 11 12 MR. FEE: You can consider this notice now. 14:47:40 13 You guys should check all of your standards that were 14:47:42 14 reproduced and make sure they're correct because it 18 14:49:19 14:49:22 Q. And what steps do you know of that ASTM has 14:47:45 14:47:48 14:47:50 14:47:51 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16 14:47:52 14:47:54 20 are important standards, you've now heard. You're now 14:48:01 23 MR. BRIDGES: You know something? We will. 24 MR. FEE: I bet you will. 25 MR. BRIDGES: And that's a really good point. 14:48:07 14:49:43 14:49:47 14:49:49 14:49:59 Q. Does ASTM ever make any errors in its 14:49:59 14:50:03 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 19 designation. Calls for speculation. 14:47:56 20 14:47:59 22 should go back and make sure they're actually right. 18 14:49:41 14:49:44 THE WITNESS: It's a legal matter. So I'd 14 refer to counsel. 17 standards? 19 about that from the deposition of Mr. Malamud, these 21 on notice, if you weren't on notice before, that you Q. Who would know the most about that at ASTM? 12 Beyond the scope of his designation. 13 14:49:32 14:49:38 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. BRIDGES: I'm sorry. Are you becoming a MR. FEE: No. No. In case you weren't clear A. I'm not certain. 14:49:22 14:49:26 8 Resource of errors in its transcription of standards? 14:47:32 17 witness now? 14:49:11 14:49:16 4 there's a deliberate attempt to harm the public. 10 not that actually has happened. 16 14:49:11 7 taken to protect the public by notifying Public 9 designation. Calls for speculation as to whether or 15 may be dangerous. THE WITNESS: I'd be concerned about 2 unintended consequences of posting documents that 3 aren't technically correct. I don't believe that 14:47:17 5 somebody notified defendant that these errors needed 1 14:48:35 14:48:39 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 18 14:48:33 20 that will cause death and injury and loss of property? 14:46:58 23 12 its attention. Is that clear to you? 16 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Beyond the THE WITNESS: I'm concerned about it. Q. Because I commit to you that Public Resource 13 14:46:32 14:46:39 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:48:32 10 14:46:21 22 25 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, no. 14:46:16 18 scope of his designation. Calls for speculation. 21 14:48:27 14:48:28 14:46:18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16 posting of standards? 19 8 14:48:23 14:48:26 7 Beyond the scope of his designation. 15 injury to property resulting from the defendants 17 6 14:46:12 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14 4 of the errors in any place so that it can act on them 5 right away? 14:46:11 11 Beyond the scope of his designation as well. 12 14:48:20 14:46:12 9 injury to property? 10 14:48:17 3 know them as soon as possible? Has ASTM collected all 14:46:11 6 14:48:14 2 because Mr. Malamud in Public Resource would like to 14:46:03 3 upside down. If someone is flipping through and 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. Where has ASTM collected all of the errors 14:46:02 14:50:03 14:50:04 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that ASTM has a very 14:50:09 21 rigorous quality control process. I'm not aware of 14:50:11 22 any errors, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that 14:50:15 14:48:06 23 there might be one. 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:48:09 25 Page 159 14:50:18 14:50:19 Q. One? Would it surprise you if there were 14:50:20 Page 161 41 (Pages 158 - 161) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 more than one error in the ASTM standards? 2 3 14:50:24 MR. FEE: Same objections. 14:50:28 THE WITNESS: I'd be speculating. 5 14:50:34 Q. Well, you have testified as to what would 7 you. 14:50:34 14:50:35 14:53:08 Q. Does ASTM ever issue corrigenda to its 5 standards? 6 MR. FEE: Same objections. 14:50:37 9 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of ASTM's rigorous 10 quality control process and the value of bringing 8 14:50:37 14:50:40 11 people together under an open, transparent process and 14:50:42 14:53:08 14:53:13 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Beyond the 7 scope of his designation. 8 14:53:14 14:53:15 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain. 14:53:20 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 14:53:21 Q. Does ASTM ever issue a notice of errors in 11 any of its standards? 14:53:21 14:53:28 12 the important role that ASTM staff plays in helping to 14:50:47 12 MR. FEE: Same objections. 13 ensure the quality of our documents. And I would be 14:50:49 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain. 14 skeptical that that could be replicated if any steps 15 were bypassed. So -- 14:50:59 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17 14:50:54 Q. Would it surprise you for an ASTM standard to 18 have three or more errors in it? MR. FEE: Same objections. 20 THE WITNESS: Would it surprise me? Yes. 22 14:51:19 25 second to object. 14:53:37 14:53:40 14:51:23 14:53:45 20 It's beyond the scope of his designation, and 22 14:53:47 14:53:50 THE WITNESS: I'm not able to explain that 23 process. 14:51:21 14:53:42 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 21 compound. 14:51:16 MR. FEE: Same objections. Just give me a 14:53:34 17 and then discovers that there is a mistake in the 19 14:51:13 Q. Are you aware of any ASTM standards with Q. What happens if ASTM publishes and 18 standard? How does ASTM notify the public? 14:51:16 23 three or more errors? 24 14:51:03 14:51:08 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:53:32 14:53:34 16 distributes a standard that's widely held by persons 14:51:05 19 14:53:31 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15 14:51:03 14:53:06 14:53:07 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 14:50:34 6 surprise you. I'd like to know what would surprise THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar with the term 2 "errata." 14:50:31 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 1 14:53:53 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 14:53:52 14:53:55 Q. Would it harm ASTM's reputation to issue a 14:53:55 Page 164 Page 162 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not personally, no 2 BY MR BRIDGES: 3 14:51:25 2 Q Are you aware of how ASTM standards are 4 proofread? 5 14:51:27 THE WITNESS: Yes, generally 4 14:51:47 Q How? 9 A There's a rigorous process under which at 11 there's peer review of the standard and of the 8 14:51:54 14:51:58 14 steps, at the end there's an editor, an ASTM staff 15 that reviews the standard and insures that the 14:54:09 14:54:15 MR FEE: Objection Calls for expert 14:54:24 14:54:25 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain 14:54:28 14:54:29 Q Have you noticed an effect on ASTM's 14:54:29 13 reputation as a consequence of the defendants' 14:54:32 14:54:35 15 14:52:26 14:52:29 A I have not 16 Q What instances is ASTM aware of, of people 14:54:37 14:54:44 17 being confused about the relationship between ASTM and Q And do ASTM editors catch every mistake? 19 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of errors, but it 21 wouldn't surprise me if there were some Q How has ASTM's reputation suffered from the 14 activities? 14:52:21 18 14:52:32 18 the defendant? 14:52:36 19 14:52:44 21 14:52:49 Q Does ASTM ever issue errata to its standards? 24 MR FEE: Objection Vague I think that's 14:52:49 23 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:52:55 14:54:59 14:55 02 THE WITNESS: Based on communications with 22 our sales and publications vice president 14:55:09 Q What did those communications convey to you? 25 A That there was some level of confusion in the Page 163 14:55:04 14:55:06 24 14:52:59 14:54:50 14:54:57 MR FEE: Objection Vague Asked and 20 answered 14:52:47 23 25 also beyond the scope of his designation 12 14:52:09 14:52:13 16 document purports to be what the committee intended it 14:54:09 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:52:05 13 works through the ASTM process, which involves many 22 BY MR BRIDGES: 10 14:54:01 14:54:07 9 testimony 14:52:00 12 document, and as it goes through the process, as it THE WITNESS: I'm not certain 7 activities of the defendants? 14:51:53 10 every point in the standards development process 17 for -- for it to be 6 14:51:53 8 14:53:59 5 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:51:51 7 BY MR BRIDGES: 14:53:58 MR FEE: Objection Calls for expert 3 testimony It's beyond the scope of his designation 14:51:44 MR FEE: Objection Vague 6 1 standard with mistakes? 14:51:27 14:55:09 14:55:14 Page 165 42 (Pages 162 - 165) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 marketplace which was impacting business execution. 2 3 14:55:18 Q. What was the confusion in the marketplace? 14:55:26 A. Potential customers thought they would no 14:55:32 4 longer need to access documents through ASTM if they 5 were provided at a different place. 6 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 14:55:49 14:55:51 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 14:55:59 Q. Is it -- did Mr. Pace identify them to you 11 and you've forgotten them? 14:56:02 A. I don't recall. I don't think so. 13 Q. Do you recall Mr. Pace identifying any of 14:56:10 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 18 14:56:19 14:56:22 Q. Did Mr. Pace tell you how many potential 19 customers had that experience? A. No. 21 14:56:23 Q. Did Mr. Pace explain to you any 14:56:30 14:56:34 25 THE WITNESS: No. 14:58:30 8 may contain errors, or it may be a different version 14:58:35 10 14:58:40 Q. What harm -- explain to me, please, the facts 14:59:04 14:59:11 14:59:22 13 of an ASTM standard and it is posted to the Internet 15 14:59:30 14:59:37 MR. FEE: Objection. May call for expert 16 testimony. To form as well. Go ahead. 14:59:39 14:59:41 14:59:44 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:59:48 Q. And to be clear, I want to know what harm 14:59:48 14:59:49 21 older version that Public Resource has posted. 14:59:53 14:56:40 MR. FEE: Same objections. THE WITNESS: Well, by going to a source 15:00:00 24 other than ASTM for a document such as this that 14:56:37 22 23 14:56:36 MR. FEE: Objection to form. 14:58:28 20 ASTM suffers from the presence of the logo on that 22 characteristics of the potential customers who had 24 14:58:24 7 official ASTM standard when, in fact, it may not be, 19 14:56:30 23 that experience? A. It creates the impression that this is the 17 14:56:25 20 6 14 by Public Resource. 14:56:21 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:58:24 Q. What harm does it cause? 12 logo is on an older version than the current version 14:56:17 15 14:58:22 11 of the kinds of harm that ASTM suffers if the ASTM 14:56:08 14 those potential customers? THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 than the version that ASTM is currently maintained. 14:55:59 12 3 14:58:15 14:58:17 5 14:55:46 7 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for expert 2 testimony. Vague. 14:55:38 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:55:43 Q. Who were those "potential customers"? 1 14:59:57 15:00:01 25 contains ASTM's logo, I would be concerned that the 15:00:05 Page 168 Page 166 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 3 of the potential customers who had that experience? 4 MR FEE: Objection to form 5 THE WITNESS: No 14:56:43 3 hazards in the marketplace or state of the artistry 10 A No 11 6 11 15 different place Apart from that, what other 17 the marketplace that impacted business execution? THE WITNESS: I can't think of any at the 15:01:00 Q. Do you understand that it is Public 15:01:00 19 15:01:01 15:01:04 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 18 Calls for speculation. 14:57:40 15:01:06 15:01:08 THE WITNESS: Based on the documents I've 15:01:14 20 seen that have been posted, it's my understanding that 21 they have been incorporated by reference, yes. 14:57:52 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:57:52 23 14:57:57 24 Public Resource cause any harm to ASTM from ASTM's 25 knowledge? 17 14:57:29 14:57:41 Q Does the presence of the ASTM logo and 15:00:55 15:00:59 16 incorporated by reference? 14:57:25 14:57:33 23 trademarks on documents posted to the Internet by THE WITNESS: I don't fully understand the 15 Resource's practice to post standards only if they are 14:57:21 16 confusion are you aware of, or is ASTM aware of, in 22 14 15:00:45 15:00:48 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:57:15 14:57:18 15:00:43 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation 12 strategy. 14:57:13 14 through ASTM if they were provided with it at a 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 15:00:38 10 as to Public Resource's intention. 13 that they would no longer need to access documents 19 15:00:34 9 14:57:05 MR FEE: Objection to form Q. Do you understand that Public Resource 8 standards that have been incorporated by reference? 14:56:55 14:57:04 18 15:00:34 7 intends to post to the Internet only those ASTM 14:56:52 You mentioned potential customers thought 15:00:18 15:00:21 15:00:24 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14:57:00 Q Are you aware -- strike that 20 moment 4 practice that needs to be captured. 14:56:52 Q Are you aware of any documents in ASTM's 9 had that experience? 12 2 standard which may have been revised to address new 14:56:46 8 possession that identify the potential customers who 15:00:15 14:56:41 14:56:49 6 BY MR BRIDGES: 7 1 public isn't accessing the most recent version of a 14:56:41 Q Did Mr Pace give you any kind of description 14:58:06 15:01:16 15:01:18 15:01:21 Q. Is it misleading, in your view, to provide to 24 the public an older version of a standard -- of an 15:01:21 15:01:25 25 ASTM standard where that older version is incorporated 14:58:15 Page 167 15:01:43 Page 169 43 (Pages 166 - 169) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 by reference? 2 3 not that older version is authentic. 4 15:01:48 15:01:51 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm sorry. Could you 5 just repeat that? 15:01:54 15:01:57 9 where the older version has been incorporated by 15:02:07 15:02:09 MR. FEE: Same objection as to the vagueness. THE WITNESS: My concern would be that to get 15:02:11 7 this. 9 15:04:41 15:04:41 15:04:43 15:04:47 15:04:49 Q. Would it harm ASTM less if defendant took the 11 posts? 15:02:16 12 13 the most recent version of any document, you more than 15:02:27 15:04:58 15:04:59 15:05:01 15:02:32 Q. But if somebody is interested in, let's say, 14 MR. BRIDGES: I'd like to know what ASTM -- 15 15:02:31 MR. FEE: Calls for an expert opinion, 16 perhaps, as well. 15:02:32 15:04:49 15:04:53 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation, 15:02:19 13 and a hypothetical. 14 likely need to come to ASTM or one of our licensed 17 MR. FEE: That's absolutely false. You 10 ASTM logo off the standards that it -- sorry, that it 12 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 into your answer until you heard counsel's objection. 15:02:01 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 15 distributors. 15:04:38 6 should read the transcript when you get done with 15:01:57 8 ASTM logo on an older version of an ASTM standard 10 reference? 15:04:38 Q. The authenticity of the standard didn't come 5 Q. Is it misleading, in your view, to have the 15:04:36 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 15:01:55 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 1 than the dated issue. 15:01:47 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague as to whether or 17 15:05:05 15:05:08 15:05:09 THE WITNESS: I'm not able to answer that 15:05:10 18 a 2008 standard because the 2008 standard has been 15:02:39 18 question. 19 incorporated by reference but a more recent standard 15:02:42 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 20 has not been, what is the harm to ASTM from the 15:02:44 20 21 inclusion of the ASTM logo on that 2008 standard 15:02:49 21 problematic -- I'm just curious. Which would you find 22 posted by Public Resource? 15:02:55 23 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 24 THE WITNESS: Since I'm not an attorney and 1 between regulations and law, I will share my 2 observation -- 15:03:01 15:03:09 Q. Please do. 5 A. -- that just because a version of a standard 15:03:18 7 to stop industry from wanting to use the most recent 15:03:26 15:03:30 Q. And is it ASTM's view that it's misleading to 11 available -- strike that. 12 15:03:39 15:03:43 Is it ASTM's view that it is misleading to 15:03:48 14 on the Internet when the standards are not the most 16 15:04:09 17 using "misleading" as a legal term, I object on that 15:04:13 15:04:15 19 because it's not clear whether or not the standards 21 23 15:04:18 15:04:21 MR. BRIDGES: That's coaching the witness, 22 Mr. Fee. 15:04:23 15:04:24 15:04:25 15:04:26 25 authenticity of the standard as much as the -- more 15:05:37 15:05:41 Page 172 15:05:56 15:06:02 15:06:03 15:06:06 MR BRIDGES: Just please state the basis for 7 your objection instead of -- 15:06:08 15:06:10 MR FEE: Andrew, do you forget how your 15:06:11 9 deposition objections went? Do you remember your 15:06:12 10 deposition objections the other day? They were much 15:06:14 12 14 15:06:16 MR BRIDGES: Not so 15:06:18 MR FEE: I'm going to make my objections To the extent you're asking for a legal 16 that basis I object because it calls for 15:06:19 15:06:21 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 19 20 Q You may answer 15:06:35 15:06:36 15:06:38 THE WITNESS: And I'm not able to answer that 23 question 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 25 15:04:31 Page 171 15:06:28 15:06:35 MR FEE: Hold on I'm not done objecting 21 yet And objection to form 15:06:22 15:06:25 17 speculation, and it's a hypothetical question 22 THE WITNESS: Well, that's exactly the point 24 I thought I was making. I don't -- it's the 6 15:05:21 15:05:49 15 conclusion with respect to "problematic," I object on 15:04:11 18 ground. I also object to the vagueness of that 5 a legal perspective -- 15:03:54 13 15:04:03 MR. FEE: Objection. To the extent you're 20 you're referencing are authentic or not. MR FEE: Objection To the extent that 11 more talkative than this 13 display the ASTM logo on standards currently available 15 recent versions? 1 ASTM standards it posts with the ASTM logo or for 8 15:03:35 10 have the ASTM logo on anything that's currently 15:05:18 15:05:27 What would ASTM, in your view, find to be 4 you're asking for what would be more problematic from 15:03:15 6 that's in the law might be outdated, that doesn't seem 9 24 3 15:03:14 8 version of the standard. 23 to public -- strike that. 2 Public Resource to publish them without the ASTM logo? 15:03:14 4 15:05:14 15:03:04 25 more of a problem, for Public Resource to post the Page 170 15:03:12 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:05:14 Q. Would ASTM -- well, would you find it 22 to be more of a problem to ASTM, for Public Resource 15:02:58 25 I'm not familiar with the regulatory -- the connection 15:05:12 15:06:49 15:06:50 15:06:53 Q In your position at ASTM, does it make a 15:06:53 Page 173 44 (Pages 170 - 173) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 difference to you whether the ASTM logo is or is not 15:06:58 1 the presence of the ASTM logo and trademarks on the 2 on the standards, the ASTM standards that defendant 15:07:04 2 ASTM standards that defendant has posted to the 3 has posted to the Internet? 4 15:07:10 3 Internet harms ASTM? MR. FEE: Are you asking him personally now 5 for his opinion? 15:07:13 15:07:14 6 MR. FEE: Then it's beyond the scope of his 15:07:15 15:07:18 8 designation. I object on that basis. All the other 9 objections as last time, as well. 10 15:07:19 15:07:22 And to the extent that your position is based 15:07:26 12 anything based on legal counsel. If you have an 15:07:29 13 answer still, you can go ahead and answer. 16 15:07:33 THE WITNESS: My position would be based on 15 legal counsel. MR. BRIDGES: There's a misunderstanding. I 15:07:41 15:07:47 15:07:47 20 difference to you whether the ASTM logo is or is not 15:07:49 21 on the ASTM standards the defendant has posted to the 23 15:09:42 8 on business execution I'd also like to notice we've been going for 15:09:53 10 over an hour So at an appropriate time 11 15:09:56 MR BRIDGES: We can take a break if you 12 want We can do it now 13 15:10:02 15:10:02 THE WITNESS: All right 15:10:06 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record (A recess was taken from 3:09 p m 17 to 3:26 p m ) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at 19 3:26 p m 15:26:01 15:26 01 15:07:57 20 BY MR BRIDGES: 15:26:07 Q Mr Grove, let me direct your attention back 15:07:59 25 difference to you is based upon your understanding 15:26:15 15:08:03 25 around the time of that document or before the Page 174 15:08:05 15:26:07 15:26:10 23 redacted band across the top Does this document 24 and to the extent whether or not something makes a 1 from legal counsel, I would instruct you not to 15:26:02 15:26:05 22 to Exhibit 1044 for a minute It's one with the MR. FEE: I'll make all the same objections, 15:10 07 15:10:08 16 15:07:52 21 15:07:55 2 disclose at least that difference. 15:09:45 15:09:48 18 15:07:44 Q. In your position at ASTM, does it make a 22 Internet? 15:09:35 15 09:37 THE WITNESS: It creates the perception, 15 at 15:09 17 wasn't asking what your position was. I said, "in 19 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 7 problem that's been identified by John Pace as a drag 15:07:36 14 15:07:37 18 your position." 6 9 15:07:23 11 on legal counsel, I would instruct you not to disclose 14 15:09:30 5 Calls for expert testimony MR. BRIDGES: In his position at ASTM. 7 4 15:09:22 15:09:26 24 refresh your recollection as to whether, roughly, 15:26:22 15:26:24 Page 176 1 document you had received a notice internally to 15:26:25 2 preserve all documents for litigation in this case? 15:08:11 3 If you have some other difference -- 3 A. No, it does not. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't. This gets into an 15:08:15 4 Q. Did you ever receive such a notice to hold 5 area of legal matters that I don't have an opinion. 15:08:16 5 documents for litigation? 15:26:30 15:08:13 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 6 15:08:20 Q. Well, I'm not asking for legal positions. 15:08:20 15:26:36 MR. FEE: Hold on a second. Actually, if 15:26:44 7 you'll agree that that's not a waiver of anything, 15:26:46 8 I'm not asking for legal theories. I'm asking for the 15:08:22 8 I'll let him answer that. 9 facts that are available to you. What facts are you 15:08:24 9 15:26:49 MR. BRIDGES: Correct. 10 aware of that suggests that the presence of the ASTM 15:08:28 10 11 logo and trademarks on the ASTM standards that 15:08:35 15:26:51 11 more time? I got lost. 12 defendant has posted to the Internet -13 A. Uh-huh. 14 15:08:44 Q. -- harms ASTM? 15 17 15:08:51 15:08:54 THE WITNESS: I believe I answered the 15:26:54 15:26:56 15:26:57 Q. Did you ever receive such a notice to hold 15:26:57 14 documents for this litigation? 15:08:49 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 16 Calls for expert testimony. THE WITNESS: Can you just restate that one 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 13 15:08:49 15:26:37 15:26:43 15:08:58 15:26:59 15 A. Could you define "hold." 15:27:01 16 Q. To preserve documents against disposal or 15:27:03 17 destruction for the purposes of this litigation. 15:27:05 18 question to the best of my ability. 15:08:59 18 A. Yes. 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:09:04 19 Q. Do you know when you received that notice? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Do you know how long ago it was? 22 A. I don't recall specifically, no. 23 Q. Do you recall what year it was? 24 A. Fall of 2013. 20 Q. I'm asking you -- I asked different questions 21 earlier. I'm asking for what the facts are that 22 you're aware of now. 23 15:09:10 MR. FEE: Hold on. Is that a new question? 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 15:09:04 15:09:07 15:09:17 15:09:19 Q. What facts are you aware of that suggest that 25 15:09:19 Page 175 15:27:08 15:27:09 15:27:12 15:27:13 15:27:20 15:27:21 15:27:29 Q. Okay. Were you aware of the filing of this 15:27:32 Page 177 45 (Pages 174 - 177) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 lawsuit being pushed back several months from its 2 originally intended timing? 15:27:38 3 MR. FEE: Objection. 15:27:43 4 To the extent that it would require you to 1 A. We did, in January of 2013. 2 15:27:40 Q. And what do you mean by "going live" with the 15:30:14 3 reading room? 4 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 5 disclose communication with counsel, I instruct you 15:27:46 5 THE WITNESS: It took a lot of work and 6 not to answer that. If you became aware otherwise, 15:27:47 6 resources to build the ASTM reading room, and the 7 you can go ahead. 8 15:27:43 15:30:17 15:30:21 15:27:50 15:27:51 9 communication with counsel. 11 15:27:52 Q. Are you aware that plaintiffs relayed that 15:30:27 15:30:34 8 the board, or whatever capacity Mary McKiel may have 9 been at that time. Jim was communicating to her that 15:27:55 10 I believe -- I'm speculating what Jim is 15:27:55 12 fact to persons outside the plaintiff group? 15:30:25 7 executive committee, or in this case the chairman of THE WITNESS: That would involve 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:30:22 15:28:01 15:30:40 15:30:44 15:30:46 11 communicating, but I believe he was saying the reading 12 room is up and running. 15:30:50 15:30:52 13 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 15:28:04 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that. 15:28:08 14 15 MR. BRIDGES: Let me turn back to 15:28:15 15 reading room, what you meant was that ASTM's reading 16 Exhibit 1046. 17 15:28:16 16 room was available for public access; is that correct? Mr. Fee, I think it would be uncontroversial, 15:28:17 17 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 15:28:20 18 does ASTM stipulate to the authenticity of 19 Exhibit 1036? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15:28:24 20 MR. FEE: 1046? 21 15:28:27 22 It's a document that ASTM produced with a Bates 24 15:28:29 15:28:37 15:31:12 Q. And that happened in January 2013? 21 A. Some documents went up before January, but 15:31:13 15:28:37 25 knowing more about it, but I would imagine that both 24 15:31:27 15:28:40 25 reading room in January 2013? Page 178 15:28:43 1 2 not all, the E-mails they produced I'd be happy to 15:28:46 3 talk about this or a broader discussion on that topic 15:28:53 3 4 15:28:53 4 about its reading room going live? A I believe close to the full collection So 15:31:36 15:31:38 Q What announcements to the press did ASTM make 15:28:54 5 6 15:28:55 6 announcements when it went live in January I believe 8 to do that without examining the issue a little bit 9 10 MR BRIDGES: Okay 15:28:56 12 reading room"? A I do 14 Q What do you understand that statement to 15 mean? 16 A I'd be speculating 17 Q Go ahead 15:29:10 15:29:12 15:29:26 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 15:32:21 15:32:25 15:32:27 15:32:33 15:32:36 19 Q When was that? 15:29:55 20 A I'm sorry I don't know specifically 21 Q How long after the launch of the reading room 15:30:00 15:30:06 22 did that occur? 15:30:08 15:32:36 15:32:37 A I'm sorry I don't recall It was in 2013 24 15:30:09 Q Did ASTM ever make an announcement to the 25 press about the availability of its reading room Page 179 15:32:39 15:32:45 23 15:30:09 Q Did ASTM go live with its reading room? 15:32:19 15:29:53 21 the place on ASTM's website where we place all ASTM 25 15:32:17 17 year Mention of it was made in the magazine 20 fact that we went live with our reading room, which is 24 BY MR BRIDGES: THE WITNESS: Yes Through our flagship 16 believe 30,000 individuals receive it six times a THE WITNESS: I believe he's announcing the 22 standards that we're aware of that are incorporated by MR FEE: Objection Vague 15 delivered to all of our members and stakeholders I 15:29:50 15:32:12 15:32:15 14 communication, Standardization News, which we 15:29:46 15:31:58 15:32:05 Q Did ASTM ever make announcements to the press 13 15:29:37 19 10 12 15:29:29 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 15:31:55 15:32:08 11 about the availability of its reading room? 15:29:24 18 23 reference 9 it before we broadcast it too widely 15:29:14 13 15:31:54 8 and I think we wanted to get a little experience with 15:29 04 Q This document -- do you see where Mr Thomas A I don't recall if we made a lot of 7 we were concerned about if it would function and work, 15:28:59 11 said at the top of the page, "We are now live with our 15:31:43 15:31:48 5 purposes, I needed to ask him questions about this MR FEE: Well, you're welcome to ask him 15:31:30 15:31:32 Page 180 2 as many as 1,300 ASTM documents 7 whatever questions you want about this I don't want 15:31:20 Q. How many documents were on-line at the ASTM 1 parties would agree to the authenticity of most, if MR BRIDGES: Okay But for present 15:31:16 22 January of 2013 was when we had set a goal working 23 with IT to try to get these documents on-line. MR. FEE: I'm hesitant to do that without 15:30:59 15:31:03 15:31:13 20 15:28:28 15:30:55 15:31:11 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. BRIDGES: Sorry. 1046, you're right. 23 022620. 15:30:55 Q. So when you say that ASTM went live with the 15:32:53 15:32:59 15:33 03 Page 181 46 (Pages 178 - 181) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 beyond the announcement in Standardization News? 15:33:08 2 MR FEE: Objection to form 15:33:13 3 THE WITNESS: I believe it was also announced 4 at the ASTM annual business meeting in 2013 5 BY MR BRIDGES: 6 15:33:16 4 that I can recall 15:33:22 9 Q What other public announcements did ASTM make 7 15:33:28 15:33:32 15:33:36 11 announcements to its own members and stakeholders? A I also believe that there was a reference to 15:33:44 15:33:46 15:36:41 15:36:45 15:36:53 15:36:54 15:36:56 MR BRIDGES: Yes Excuse me Thank you 15:36:57 15:36:58 Q Was there any -- were there any announcements 15:37:01 15 by ASTM of the availability of the reading room to the 15:37:05 15:33:58 16 general public apart from those whom you would call 15:37:11 15:34 01 17 visiting with stakeholders that I interact with, that 18 ASTM has this reading room 17 ASTM members and stakeholders? 15:34:05 Q What else? 20 A Jim Thomas, our president, mentions it in his 18 15:34:07 21 interactions on a worldwide basis 15:34:08 MR FEE: Objection Vague THE WITNESS: Yeah I can recall at least on 15:37:21 15:37:23 20 one occasion when -- we don't get a lot of inquiries 15:34:16 15:37:24 21 from the media on this issue, on public access issues, 15:34:12 A Jim Thomas is a popular figure in the 15:37:18 19 19 23 11 "NFPA"? 14 A I make it part of my message, when I'm Q With whom? 15:36:16 15:36:27 MR FEE: I think you misspoke You said 13 I'm still stuck in yesterday 15:33:52 22 9 stakeholders? 12 15:33:50 16 15:36:15 Were there any announcements to the general 10 15:33:40 13 it in the ASTM annual report in 2013, which was Q What else? 15:36:12 8 public apart from what you would call NFPA members and 10 about the availability of its reading room beyond 15 15:36:10 Q How many of those audiences did not already 6 have -- strike that 15:33:25 A Yes 14 published in 2014 A And I'm sorry I believe that concludes all 5 8 12 Q What else? 3 15:33:15 Q The "ASTM business meeting" being a meeting 15:36:09 2 15:33:22 7 of ASTM members and stakeholders? 1 Records Administration 15:37:27 22 but I do recall Jim Thomas, our CEO, mentioned it to a 15:34:19 24 standards community, a well-known expert, and he 23 reporter that was asking us about public access 15:34:22 25 speaks to many groups So I wouldn't be able to give 15:37:31 15:37:38 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 25 15:34:25 15:37:43 15:37:43 Q Which reporter was that? Page 182 1 you specifics without reviewing his calendar. 15:34:30 Q. What else? 15:34:34 3 A. ASTM has an electronic newsletter. I believe 15:34:40 15:34:45 5 Q. To ASTM's members and stakeholders? 15:34:49 6 A. Yes. To anyone interested in subscribing. 7 Q. What else? 8 A. We previously discussed some efforts to 15:34:52 15:35:02 15:35:07 10 through an APCO public relations campaign. I believe 15:35:10 11 the reading room was part of that messaging as well in Q. What else? 14 A. That's all I can recall at this time. It had 15:35:34 17 sorry. Were you about to mention another? 18 A. I'm sorry. We also sent a few letters to 21 15:35:43 15:35:46 22 agencies? 23 15:35:49 15:35:54 Q. By "agencies," do you mean government 4 Q Was it a reporter writing an article about 6 A Could have been Q It was; right? 8 15:37:45 15:37:51 15:37:59 15:38:00 MR FEE: Objection Asked and answered 9 BY MR BRIDGES: 10 15:38:01 15:38:05 Q To the best of your knowledge, it was? 11 15:38:05 MR FEE: Same answer -- or same objection 15:38:07 15:38:09 THE WITNESS: Yes I think that was the 14 interest 16 15:37:53 15:37:55 15:38:09 15:38:10 15:38:11 Q So apart from that, what announcements did 15:38:11 17 ASTM make to the general public beyond its members and 18 stakeholders about the availability of its standards 19 on its reading room? 15:38:18 15:38:22 15:38:25 20 15:35:58 MR FEE: Objection Vague 21 THE WITNESS: I'm very proud of the reading 15:38:29 22 room It's something that we worked very hard to do 15:35:57 15:35:58 A. To government agencies, to the office of A Yeah I'm sorry I don't recall 5 this litigation? 15:37:44 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 15:35:40 19 agencies informing them of the creation of the reading 20 room. 3 13 15:35:28 Q. Of all the persons who had access to -- Q Was it a reporter for the New Republic? 12 Sorry 15:35:19 15 a place on our website as well. 16 15:35:14 15:35:17 13 A I'm sorry I don't recall 7 15:34:54 9 educate policy makers and stakeholders in Washington 12 2013. 1 2 2 4 we mentioned it in the newsletter in 2013. Page 184 15:38:27 15:38:30 23 to strike this balance I believe it's an excellent 24 management and budget, and to the office of the 15:36:01 25 federal register at NARA, the National Archives 15:36:04 25 So we speak about it freely to anyone that wants to Page 183 24 policy, and we've received a lot of accolades for it 15:38:33 15:38:38 15:38:45 Page 185 47 (Pages 182 - 185) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 hear about it. 3 1 connection with this litigation at the request of 15:38:47 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:38:50 Q. And if you're very proud of it, you would 15:38:50 4 want to make sure that as many people hear about it as 5 possible; is that right? 6 15:38:52 15:38:54 MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the 6 15:38:57 15:38:59 9 THE WITNESS: I have no concerns with anyone 10 knowing about it. 14 15:39:06 16 15:39:18 15:42:22 15:42:23 15:42:30 15:42:33 15:39:25 THE WITNESS: I don't have our press 20 doctrine covers. 21 If you did something at the direction of 15:39:36 15:39:44 Q. How many press releases has ASTM issued, to THE WITNESS: Right. I thought the question 15:39:52 4 matter. 15:39:57 10 awards in a variety of things. So I wouldn't be 15:40:11 15:40:17 11 surprised if it was a couple hundred. 15:40:20 15:40:23 6 10 that. 11 13 14 in doing that? 18 15:40:35 15:40:38 15:40:40 15:41:41 15:41:45 24 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 25 To the extent that investigation was done in 15 MR. FEE: To the extent that you are doing it 16 at the direction of counsel, you should not disclose 18 15:41:45 20 15:43:21 15:43:25 15:43:26 15:43:27 15:43:30 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. 15:43:35 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:41:41 Q. Did ASTM investigate the sources of Public 23 Resource's funding? 15:43:18 15:43:21 Q. Why may you have? What would be your purpose 17 those communications. THE WITNESS: I don't have a number. 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 22 15:40:34 You can answer in your personal capacity if 19 you have an answer. 20 15:40:30 15:40:33 15:43:09 15:43:13 THE WITNESS: I may have. 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:40:23 17 designation. 15:43:05 15:43:07 15:43:14 15:40:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 15:43:05 MR. FEE: Same instruction with respect to Q. And how many press releases do you recall 16 15:43:03 8 what you knew about Public Resource's funding? 9 15:42:56 15:43:00 Q. I said have you no knowledge of communicating 14 announced to the general public the availability of 15 ASTM standards on ASTM's reading room? 15:42:55 7 to David Carmel at International Code Council about 15:40:05 9 ASTM press releases cover member recognition and 13 Page 188 3 to which I said, "No." That would have been a legal 15:39:59 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:42:54 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: THE WITNESS: I'd be speculating, but our 15:42:49 15:42:52 15:39:47 15:39:56 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 15:42:48 2 was did ASTM investigate the sources of Google funding 4 the best of your knowledge, from January 1, 2013 until 8 24 that question. If you did it otherwise, you can 1 15:39:47 7 designation. Calls for speculation. 15:42:46 23 you not to disclose it in connection with answering 15:39:40 25 answer it. Page 186 6 15:42:41 15:42:43 22 counsel in connection with this litigation, I instruct 25 So I'm not certain if we announced it through a press 5 now? 15:42:37 MR. FEE: That's not what the work product 15:39:37 3 15:42:24 16 how he may have learned about something. But if he's 19 15:39:31 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:42:22 MR. BRIDGES: I'm sorry. I'm just asking 24 releases. I know we issued 350 press releases a year. 1 release. 15:42:14 14 18 see any protection here. 15:39:27 23 MR. FEE: Same instruction. If it requires 15:39:18 20 the general American public about the availability of MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 15:42:06 15:42:10 17 communicating something to a non-party, then I don't Q. So did ASTM issue any broad press releases to 22 9 David Carmel at International Code Council about what 15 about a disclosure. You're introducing the concept of 15:39:15 15:39:16 21 any of its standards on its reading room? 15:42:04 13 the request of counsel, you should not answer it. 15:39:11 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. You have no knowledge of communicating with 11 15:39:10 THE WITNESS: Again, I have no concerns. 17 Yes, I would. 15:42:03 15:42:04 15:39:06 12 you to disclose something you learned through -- at 15:39:08 MR. FEE: Same objection. It's vague and 15 asked and answered. THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of that. 10 you knew about Public Resource's funding? Q. And would you want as many people as possible 13 to know about it? 19 15:39:01 15:39:03 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 8 15:41:56 15:41:59 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: But you can answer. 15:41:54 4 answer it, although, also, it's beyond the scope of 15:38:55 8 15:41:50 3 you're aware of some other investigation, you can 5 your designation in this case. 7 scope of his designation, among other things. 15:41:49 2 counsel, I'd instruct you not to disclose that. If 15:43:44 Q. Has ASTM, to your knowledge, ever had a 15:43:44 21 contract or an agreement with International Code 15:43:50 22 Council regarding this litigation? 23 15:43:52 MR. FEE: Objection. Let me talk to you 15:43:54 24 about privilege issues with respect to this line of 15:41:46 25 questioning. Let's take a break. Page 187 15:43:58 15:44:00 Page 189 48 (Pages 186 - 189) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: Okay 2 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now off the record 15:44:02 3 at 15:43 15:44:02 4 (A recess was taken from 3:43 p m 5 to 3:44 p m ) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record 8 MR FEE: Can you read back the question, 11 16 15:46:12 Q So a few minutes ago, right before the break, 17 I was asking you a question about what you knew about 15:46:24 18 Public Resource's funding, and my question was have 15:46:33 19 you no knowledge of communicating to David Carmel at 15:46:35 20 International Code Council about what you knew about 23 15:46:40 25 15:48:36 13 scope of his designation. 15:48:36 15:48:37 To the extent that your association is 15:48:39 15:48:41 15:48:43 17 basis for an association, you can go ahead and answer. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. So my recollection is 15:48:53 15:48:55 20 counsel. 15:49:00 22 15:49:10 Q. What else -- well, I think we've got a 15:49:10 23 serious waiver issue because I've got a document that 15:46:45 15:49:14 24 shows him communicating information from -- 15:46:48 Q Before that was "Did ASTM investigate the 25 15:46:54 15:49:16 MR. FEE: Well, show him the document. 15:49:19 Page 192 Page 190 1 sources of Public Resource's funding?" 2 A. Okay. 3 15:46:57 MR. FEE: He didn't ask you a question. Let 15:47:04 What is your question? 6 15:47:08 15:47:15 8 MR. FEE: Was something -- 9 THE WITNESS: I think I said something out of 15:47:15 10 sequence here to these questions. 14 MR. FEE: It's up to him if he wants to 15:47:19 15:47:30 20 funding of Google. I'm sorry. Of wherever we're 23 instruction you had from counsel. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:49:30 9 15:49:30 MR. BRIDGES: It will get to the broader 11 radical effect than just this deposition. 15:49:30 15:49:32 MR. FEE: Well, whatever document you're 15:49:41 15:49:42 14 depending on what it is. But I can't claw it back 15:49:48 15 if -- 15:49:51 16 MR. BRIDGES: I'll go ahead and do it. I'm just going to mark as Exhibit 1048 a 15:49:51 15:49:53 15:47:41 18 document for the record. 15:47:43 A. And I'm sorry. I inadvertently said -- what MR. FEE: Remember, don't disclose any 15:49:30 8 to ask him about it, then don't ask him about it. 17 15:47:38 19 I should have said was I did not investigate the 22 15:47:22 15:47:39 21 going with this, but I was aware -- 15:49:28 MR. FEE: All right. Well, if you don't want 13 referencing, if it's -- we may want to claw it back 15:47:22 16 There was an objection, and you said, "I have no 17 knowledge of that." 6 document outside of the context of this deposition. 12 15:47:21 Q. So, anyway, I had asked you about did ASTM 15:49:26 10 issues of waiver because it will require a much more 15:47:17 15 investigate the sources of Public Resource's funding. 18 15:47:15 15:49:22 15:49:24 MR. BRIDGES: I can because I can show the 7 15:47:15 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Then you're not going to be able to 5 THE WITNESS: Is there no way I can answer 12 clarify. 3 15:49:20 15:49:21 4 show there's a waiver. 15:47:05 5 11 MR. BRIDGES: I don't need to show him the 1 2 document. 15:47:01 4 him get to his question. 7 that? 15:48:48 19 based on information -- privileged information with 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:46:42 15:46:44 A Could I ask you to go one question before 24 that? MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. It's beyond the 16 you not to disclose those. If you have some other 15:46:20 21 Public Resource's funding Do you recall my asking 15:48:34 15 because of communications with counsel, I'd instruct 15:46:20 22 that question? THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 14 15:46:16 15:48:28 15:48:31 MR. FEE: Hold on. 12 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no, we've had 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 15:48:25 11 15:46:09 15:46:11 14 no contact No 15:48:21 9 your testimony today? MR FEE: I think you can just go ahead and 13 6 investigated the sources of Public Resource's funding, 10 15:46:09 12 answer that question 15:48:07 15:48:12 8 causes you to associate Google with Public Resource in 15:45:52 15:45:53 (Record read ) Q. And that name is "Google." And you used it 7 and you said, "I have no knowledge of that." So what 15:45:10 15:45:51 9 please 15:48:06 5 just now. And I had asked you if ASTM had 15:45:10 10 A. Right. 4 15:45:10 15:48:00 15:48:04 3 15:44:03 7 at 15:44 Q. Well, my curiosity is twice now you've used a 2 word or a name that I've never used. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Was there a 1047. 20 (Pause in proceedings.) 21 MR. BRIDGES: I'm going to hand the witness 15:47:46 15:47:50 15:47:52 23 15:47:56 24 Carmel? 25 Q. Is this an E-mail that you sent to David 15:50:51 15:50:55 15:51:02 15:51:04 (Deposition Exhibit 1047 was marked for Page 191 15:50:07 15:50:51 22 Exhibit 1047, and I have a quick yes or no answer. 15:47:54 15:48:00 15:49:59 15:51:08 Page 193 49 (Pages 190 - 193) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 identification.) 2 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1047.) 15:51:08 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:51:13 4 Q. What's the answer, Mr. Grove? 5 A. I am trying to understand this E-mail. (The witness further reviewed Exhibit 1047.) 7 MR. REHN: This is Thane Rehn, counsel for 15:51:18 15:51:18 8 NFPA. For the record, will you please read the Bates 9 number. 15:51:30 15:51:30 15:51:30 11 And for the court reporter, Thane Rehn, for 13 document." 15:51:39 Q. And were you giving him information that you 18 had received from ASTM's counsel? 15:51:42 15:51:44 A. In this case, no, I am not. 20 Q. What was the source of your information on 22 15:51:47 15:51:50 14 15:51:54 15:55:15 15:55:17 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of it, no. 15:55:19 15:55:22 Q. As you sit here today, what errors, other 15:55:22 15 than the errors you've mentioned earlier and any 15:55:24 15:55:27 17 defendants' activities with respect to ASTM standards? 18 A. I have not done that analysis. I'm not aware 20 22 15:52:05 15:52:08 24 15:55:32 15:55:39 15:55:42 MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the 15:55:44 15:55:45 MR. BRIDGES: I think it's within the scope 15:51:59 23 of the designation. 24 the standards, including -- that was forwarded to my 15:55:11 15:55:13 I would instruct you not to disclose that. 21 scope of his designation. 23 Carl Malamud that was picked up by other members of 25 attention. 10 19 of those errors. 15:51:53 A. It looks as if there was a Twitter posting by 15:55:09 8 was compiled at the direction of counsel in connection 16 alleged errors in this document, are you aware of in 15:51:42 19 15:55:08 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:51:38 15:54:55 15:55:01 MR. FEE: Objection to the extent any list 12 15:51:33 21 that E-mail? 7 11 You could answer otherwise. THE WITNESS: Yes. This appears to be an 15 E-mail from myself to David Carmel. 17 6 aware of? 15:51:32 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:54:55 Q. Does ASTM have a more up-to-date document 15:51:30 12 the record, "Can I get a Bates number for this 15:54:50 15:54:52 5 listing the errors in defendants' work that ASTM is 9 with this litigation. MR. BRIDGES: Yes. ASTM030712. 14 4 15:51:15 6 2 from Sarah Petre. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:51:13 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, it appears to be an E-mail 1 15:51:13 15:55:46 15:55:47 Q. Are you aware, on behalf of ASTM, of anything 25 else? 15:55:49 15:55:53 Page 194 1 Q. You were giving Mr. Carmel, at the top line 15:52:33 2 of this E-mail, the same information that you believe 15:52:36 3 was in Twitter at the bottom of this E-mail. Is that 4 your testimony? 5 15:52:42 15:52:47 15:52:53 Q. So you're unable to answer whether that 8 Twitter post said the Google foundation grant was 10 11 said. 12 15:52:56 15:53:01 A. Yeah. I don't recall what that Twitter post 15:53:03 15:53:06 15:53:07 13 post was the source of the information you gave to 15:53:09 15:53:11 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. So do you know what the source of information 15:53:15 17 was, as you sit here, of that statement -- of your 19 15:53:18 (Deposition Exhibit 1048 was marked for 21 identification.) 23 25 15:53:46 15:53:48 15:53:49 15:53:51 15:56:10 15:56:10 10 MR. FEE: Objection. Q. -- in 1048 -- 15:56:25 15:56:26 15:56:26 My question was interrupted. So I'll restate 12 it. 13 15:56:16 15:56:22 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:56:37 15:56:40 On behalf of ASTM, are you aware of any 15:56:41 15:56:46 15:56:50 16 Exhibit 1048 and the activities of defendants in 15:56:55 17 connection with defendants' posting of ASTM standards 15:57:15 20 Calls for speculation, and beyond the scope of his 22 You can answer. 23 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 15:57:17 15:57:20 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not. 15:54:50 25 Page 195 15:57:07 15:57:14 MR. FEE: Objection to form. Objection. 21 designation. MR. BRIDGES: I've handed you Exhibit 1048. (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1048.) 8 15:56:02 15:56:04 Q. Are you aware, on behalf of ASTM, of any 7 today, alleged errors -- 19 15:53:46 Q. Is this an E-mail that you received from 24 Sarah Petre? 5 18 to the Internet? 15:53:25 20 22 3 repeat the question, please. 15 earlier today and alleged errors mentioned in 15:53:16 15:53:21 A. No. I would be speculating. 15:55:54 14 errors, other than the errors you've testified to 15 18 statement to Mr. Carmel? THE WITNESS: Aware of errors? Could you 11 Q. So do you now recall whether that Twitter 14 Mr. Carmel? MR. FEE: Same objection. 2 6 errors other than the errors you mentioned earlier 15:52:54 9 expired and not extended or renewed? 1 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: A. Without seeing the Twitter post, I'm unable 6 to answer that. 7 15:52:39 Page 196 15:57:22 15:57:23 15:57:29 Q. On behalf of ASTM, are you aware of any 15:57:29 Page 197 50 (Pages 194 - 197) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 deliberation of ASTM as to whether to inform 15:57:36 2 Mr. Malamud or Public Resource of any errors in the 3 documents that they posted to the Internet? 4 15:57:40 15:57:45 MR. FEE: Objection to form. Beyond the 15:57:49 1 ASTM027093 to -097 Do you recognize that document? 2 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1050 ) 3 THE WITNESS: I recognize the document, yes 16:02:03 16:02:20 4 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:02:21 16:02:22 5 scope of his designation. Calls for speculation. 15:57:53 5 Q And you received the E-mail on the exhibit? 16:02:22 6 15:57:57 6 A Attached -- based on the E-mail saying it was 16:02:29 To the extent that you were involved in any 7 discussions amongst counsel regarding that subject, 15:57:59 8 you shouldn't disclose those, but if there are other 15:58:02 9 deliberations as the questioner asked, you can 15:58:05 10 identify those. 11 15:58:08 THE WITNESS: I'm reviewing the document. I 13 be a legal issue, and I was not involved in any 15:58:11 16 15:58:12 15:58:16 15:58:20 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:02:32 Q And this was part of the joint effort that 16:02:35 9 ASTM engaged in with NFPA and -- with the NFPA; 11 12 15 15:58:36 15:58:37 A Hold on 16:03:01 (Pause in proceedings ) 16:03:20 16:03:21 Q Is that correct? 16:03:21 MR FEE: Hold on I'm reviewing this 16:03:22 16 document to figure out if I need to instruct him 16:03:23 17 (The witness further reviewed Exhibit 1050 ) 16 03:30 MR FEE: I need to talk to the witness about 16:03:30 18 A. Yeah, it may involve attorney-client work. 15:58:37 18 19 Q. So there's other information that you would 15:58:38 19 this document, about privilege issues 20 furnish in response to that question except that 15:58:41 20 16:03:31 MR BRIDGES: We have numerous instances of 21 you're omitting it because you believe it falls within 15:58:43 21 it in the production 22 attorney-client privilege or attorney work product? 15:58:47 22 23 MR. FEE: Objection. I instruct you not to 24 answer that question. 25 15:58:49 15:58:50 1 that instruction has an effect on his answer. 2 15:58:54 25 Page 198 15:58:55 MR. FEE: Answering that question would 15:58:58 3 disclose the substance of communications that he's 4 aware of that are privileged. 15:59:00 15:59:02 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. Are you taking your lawyer's instruction? 7 A. I am. 15:59:08 identification.) 11 15:59:54 15:59:54 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 16:09:01 16:09:02 MR FEE: Would you read back the question, 16:09:05 16:09:07 MR BRIDGES: I will start a new question 16:09:12 Q Mr Grove, I've shown you Exhibit 1050, and I 16:09:14 15:59:54 16:00:10 16:00:17 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 (Deposition Exhibit 1050 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 MR. BRIDGES: We'll need a clip or staple, 16:09:22 11 16:01:20 16 17 16:01:20 20 MR. FEE: Which one are you putting first? 21 MR. BRIDGES: The E-mail. The cover E-mail. 22 MR. FEE: Okay. 23 MR. BRIDGES: Exhibit 1050 is an E-mail from 16:01:22 16:01:36 16:01:40 16:01:46 16:09:43 19 16:01:49 16:09:49 16:09:51 16:09:52 THE WITNESS: This was a separate RFP for 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:09:57 16:09:59 16:10:02 Q What work was it continuing? 16:10:02 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 16:01:51 24 designation 25 16:01:55 Page 199 16:09:49 MR FEE: Objection Vague Beyond the 20 some continuing work 23 16:09:44 Q What does this correspond to? 18 scope of his designation 22 24 Lorraine Carli of NFPA to you, among others, attaching THE WITNESS: No The time line of this 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:01:20 19 but the next two documents together are Exhibit 1050. 16:09:39 16:09:40 14 doesn't correspond with our selection of APCO 16:00:32 16:09:29 16:09:36 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 12 designation 13 16:00:26 25 a draft request for proposals. This is produced as 8 Carli of NFPA to you and others This pertains to 10 APCO; is that correct? 15:59:54 12 including an E-mail that you sent to James Thomas in 14 16:09:18 9 soliciting work that ended up being work performed by Q. Mr. Grove, do you recognize Exhibit 1049 as 13 the middle? THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record 7 think you identified this as an E-mail from Lorraine (Deposition Exhibit 1049 was marked for 9 3 16:09:01 16:09 01 Page 200 2 at 16:08 5 15:59:11 8 to 4:08 p m ) 16:03:38 16:03:40 (A recess was taken from 4:02 p m 4 please 15:59:08 6 1 16:03:35 16:03:36 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 23 16:02 24 MR. BRIDGES: I'm entitled to know whether 16:02:40 16:02:49 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 14 15:58:35 Q. Is your response to that question limited by 17 the instruction or objection by counsel? 8 10 correct? Regarding APCO; is that correct? 12 see that it was being referred to Tom. So that would 14 further discussion. 7 attached, I believe I did, yes 16:10:06 16:10:08 THE WITNESS: We were anticipating a lot of 16:10:09 Page 201 51 (Pages 198 - 201) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 public interest in the interest of public access. 16:10:11 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 Q. Are you reading from the document? 4 A. Oh, no. I just have it in front of me. We 16:10:17 5 7 whether it was necessary to retain a firm to help us. 16:10:28 Q. Did ASTM or any of these companies that 16:10:34 9 you're aware of retain a firm to help in that effort? 16:10:38 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16:10:41 11 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 12 16:10:42 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16:17:10 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:10:24 16:17:04 16:17:07 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no. 16:10:22 6 issue of public access. So we were again discussing 10 3 16:10:19 5 were anticipating a lot of public interest in the 8 Actually, you can answer that question yes or 1 2 no if you're aware. 16:10:17 16:17:11 Q. Okay. What did you understand to be a reason 16:17:11 6 for Underwriters Laboratories being included in your 16:17:22 7 E-mail -- strike that. 8 16:17:27 What was your reason for including someone 16:17:29 9 from Underwriters Laboratories in your E-mail? 16:17:31 10 MR. FEE: Objection. 16:17:34 11 I'm going to instruct you not to answer that 16:17:34 16:10:47 12 question. We have a common interest agreement with 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:10:49 13 Underwriters Laboratory, and this is a privileged 14 Q. What firm did you retain? 16:10:49 14 communication. 15 A. I don't believe this was the final RFP, but 16:10:55 17 Q. Do you know who prepared the draft request 18 for proposals in Exhibit 1050? 19 16:11:04 16:11:06 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 20 designation. Calls for speculation. 21 16 22 prepared it. Q. You received it from Lorraine Carli -- 25 A. Correct. 16:17:57 19 MR. FEE: You can answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: I didn't personally. So I 16:17:58 22 Could you restate that? 16:11:25 24 16:17:53 16:18:03 16:11:23 21 don't have knowledge if this was sent. I'm sorry. 16:11:25 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:17:49 17 the addressees indicated in the header; is that 20 16:11:11 THE WITNESS: I don't know with certainty who 16:17:49 Q. You did send this E-mail, Exhibit 1052, to 18 correct? 16:11:10 16:17:39 16:17:41 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:10:58 16 we ultimately retained Fleishman Hillard. 16:11:30 24 16:18:06 16:18:11 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:11:25 16:18:12 Q. You did send this E-mail, Exhibit 1052, to 16:18:13 25 the addressees indicated in the header; is that 16:18:16 Page 204 Page 202 1 (Deposition Exhibit 1051 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 16:12:31 16:12:31 1 correct? 2 16:12:32 Q. Exhibit 1051 is an E-mail that you sent to 3 16:12:32 5 James Thomas at ASTM; correct? 16:12:34 16:18:18 A I'm sorry Yes, I did Correct 16:18:18 MR BRIDGES: We need to take a short break 6 we've been taking a lot of breaks If we can go off 16:12:49 16:18:32 16:18:34 A. Yes, it appears to be. Q. Did you draft the text of the E-mail? 16:12:50 7 the record briefly, I would appreciate it 8 A. To the best of my recollection, I did. 16:13:00 8 16:16:21 10 identification.) 11 16:16:21 MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Grove, I've handed you 12 Exhibit 1052. 13 16:18:37 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record 9 at 16:17 16:16:25 (A recess was taken from 4:17 p m 11 to 4:18 p m ) 12 16:16:21 16:19:34 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record 16:19:34 16:16:26 13 at 16:18 16:16:29 14 document back. It expressly references legal 14 (Deposition Exhibit 1053 was marked for 16:20:33 16:16:32 15 identification ) 16 instruct the witness not to answer any questions, at 16:16:34 16 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've handed you -- 17 MR FEE: Can I get a copy of the exhibit, 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 20 strike that. 21 16:16:42 Q. Has Underwriters Laboratories ever been -16:16:49 16:16:50 22 agreement with Underwriters Laboratories to keep 23 communications about potential litigation 25 MR. FEE: Objection. 19 16:16:52 16:16:57 21 16:20:33 16:20:38 16:17:00 23 A Yes, I believe I have 16:21:01 Q And this is an E-mail from Mr Thomas, the 25 president of ASTM, to Roger Stoller; is that correct? Page 203 16:20:43 16:20:45 24 16:16:59 16:20:40 16:20:42 Q I'd like to know if you've seen this document 22 before 16:20:34 16:20:36 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've handed you a 20 copy of Exhibit 1053 To your knowledge, has ASTM ever had an 24 confidential? 18 please 16:16:42 16:19:35 16:19:37 15 communications in the first sentence. I'm going to 16:16:36 16:18:38 16:18:38 10 MR. FEE: Objection. I'm going to claw this 17 least about the top portion of this E-mail. 16:18:28 5 out of battery, but I need it to be very short because 7 (Deposition Exhibit 1052 was marked for 16:18:26 4 because, for some reason, my real time is about to run 6 9 16:17:36 16:21:07 16:21:10 Page 205 52 (Pages 202 - 205) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who is Mr. Stoller? 16:21:15 3 A. At the time of this E-mail, I believe Roger 1 16:21:20 16:21:25 4 Stoller was the incoming chairman of our board of 5 directors. 6 7 9 10 16:21:33 He was at Oakridge National Laboratory; is 16:21:39 16:21:43 A. Yes. 16:21:44 16:21:46 16:21:46 17 16:21:50 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain of that. 16:21:52 16:21:53 Q. Did you understand him to be a government 18 employee? MR. FEE: Same objections. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 16:21:53 identification.) 23 24 16:23:28 16:23:28 3 6 Q And the pages I've just added were the 8 11 16:24:06 16:24:08 15 exhibit that's incomplete 16 BY MR BRIDGES: 17 16:29:39 A. From Phil to Jeff, yes. Q. What's Mr. Lively's role within ASTM? 16:30:03 A. Phil is the vice president of information 21 technology. 16:30:04 16:30:08 16:30:10 Q. And does this exchange of E-mails refer to 4 9 MR. FEE: Objection. The document speaks for 11 13 16:30:53 Q That E-mail follows on E-mails that you sent 16:31:09 16:31:29 MR FEE: Objection The document speaks for 16:31:36 16:31:42 Q At the bottom of the page with Bates 16:31:42 16:31:45 16:31:52 16 line, carrying over to the next page, "Moreover, ASTM 17 explained that only a small percentage of its 16:25:17 18 standards are truly profitable and many lose money or 16:25:23 19 simply break even " Do you see that? MR FEE: Same objection 16:25:29 20 A I do THE WITNESS: Yes 16:25:30 21 Q Was that an accurate representation of ASTM's 16:25:34 22 statement? A Maureen Houck is the executive assistant to 25 our president, Jim Thomas 23 16:25:38 16:32:16 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 25 designation Page 207 16:32:16 16:32:19 24 Calls for speculation It's beyond the scope of his 16:25:40 16:32:04 16:32:11 21 16:25:34 16:31:58 16:32:01 20 24 16:31:31 16:31:33 THE WITNESS: Yes 16:25:15 Q Who is Maureen Houck? 16:31:20 16:31:23 15 ACUS report There's a sentence starting the final 16:25:14 23 16:31:12 14 No -101185, there's a reference to a quotation in the 16:25:08 19 records of ASTM to OMB regarding Circular A-119? 22 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:30:41 Page 208 16:31:09 12 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:25:05 16:30:32 16:30:42 THE WITNESS: Yes 10 itself Vague 16:24:54 16:24:58 18 E-mail with one of its attachments being the draft 16:30:31 16:30:37 8 E-mails in this thread; is that correct? 16:24:56 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 1054 as a cover 16:29:37 17 E-mail from Phil Lively to you; correct? 7 the United States as ascribed in the two underlying 16:24:37 MR FEE: Okay We object to the use of an 16:29:37 Q. At the bottom of the second page there's an 6 recommendations by the administrative conference of 16:24:34 13 MALAMUDOMB_GOV_201404111 PDF 14 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 to some members of ASTM senior management regarding 16:24:33 MR BRIDGES: No I'm omitting an attachment 16:29:08 16:29:08 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:24:26 12 written by Carl Malamud that was THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 9 were two attachments to this E-mail Are you saying 10 this is all the attachments? (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1055.) 1 itself Form 16:24:24 MR FEE: Objection It looks like there 13 16:28:21 24 for public access to ASTM standards? 16:24:17 7 attachment to the E-mail on Exhibit 1054; right? MR. FEE: Excuse me for one second. 23 steps that ASTM took towards creating a reading room 16:23:46 4 pages to this, Exhibit ASTM103025 to -103032 Let's 16:28:15 16:28:18 12 16:23:38 25 Page 206 MR BRIDGES: I'm going to add, as additional 16:28:09 16:23:28 16:24:05 5 make that a continuation exhibit, please Q. Exhibit 1055 is a series of E-mails between 16:23:35 Q. That is an E-mail from Maureen Houck to a A Yes, that's correct 16:28:09 10 you and a number of persons, including Katherine 22 MR. BRIDGES: Please look at Exhibit 1054. 16:26:06 16:28:08 20 16:21:58 25 number of persons, and you are included in the 2 identification.) 19 16:21:56 1 addressee list; is that correct? (Deposition Exhibit 1055 was marked for 7 18 (Deposition Exhibit 1054 was marked for 22 6 16 16:21:55 19 16:25:59 14 16:21:48 16:25:52 16:25:57 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 Morgan; is that correct? MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 9 16:21:44 13 conclusion and speculation. It's beyond the scope of 15 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. And was a government employee; is that 14 his designation. 3 16:25:47 16:25:49 5 Q. What government agency -- strike that. 11 correct? 12 16:21:29 16:21:32 8 that correct? Q. And you understand it went from her to all 2 the persons identified in this E-mail? 16:32:21 16:32:25 16:32:27 Page 209 53 (Pages 206 - 209) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE WITNESS: It's a little out of context. 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 16:32:42 16:32:45 Q. What would be necessary to add to that 16:32:45 4 statement in order to supply the context? 16:32:50 5 MR. FEE: Same objections. 6 THE WITNESS: Looking at standards on an 16:32:55 12 A. Customers in the public benefit from getting 16:33:52 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. identification.) 17 16:37:55 18 personal opinion in this question? 19 16:37:59 MR. FEE: It's beyond the scope of his 16:38:04 16:38:06 23 16:34:40 16:38:02 16:38:03 22 designation. 16:34:40 16:37:56 MR. BRIDGES: I'm asking him what his state 21 16:34:14 16:37:48 16:37:53 MR. FEE: Objection. Are you asking him his 16:33:59 (Deposition Exhibit 1056 was marked for 25 16:37:45 20 of mind was at the time. 16:34:01 16:37:40 15 opposed to the standards themselves in the reading 16:33:56 21 Calls for speculation. It's beyond the scope of his 16:37:20 16:37:21 Q. Did you have in mind providing summaries as 16 room? 16:33:48 16:33:54 THE WITNESS: No. 16:37:10 A. Obviously, John was thinking I was suggesting 13 how difficult this task would be. 16:33:32 14 16:33:39 18 sorry. Anything else necessary to supply an 24 16:37:08 12 I was explaining I'm not the IT guy. So I didn't know 16:33:42 23 10 16:36:57 Q. Was that in addition to doing a reading room 16:33:27 Q. Is there anything else about the context -- 16:36:47 16:36:53 16:33:25 15 rather than looking at them as individual standards 22 designation. 8 11 it as an addition, and I'm not sure if I was or not. 14 point, which allows them to access numerous standards 20 16:36:42 9 or instead of doing a reading room? 16:33:19 19 appropriate context for that statement? 4 consider beefing up -- excuse me -- making our 7 be converted to something that's more of a summary. 16:33:17 13 a collection of standards at a very affordable price 17 16:36:41 6 standards, considering whether those abstracts could 16:33:17 16 purchased separately. A. I see that I was recommending that we 16:33:14 Q. What is the real value that ASTM standards 11 have as a collection? 3 16:36:38 16:36:40 5 summaries, which the abstracts which we provide to our 16:33:14 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 Q. What were you suggesting in addition to a 16:33:12 7 individual basis devalues the real value that ASTM 8 standards have as a collection of a whole. 1 2 reading room? But you can answer. 24 THE WITNESS: In our efforts to strike the 16:38:07 16:38:08 25 right balance between providing the public with public 16:38:10 Page 212 Page 210 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 2 16:34:41 Q. Exhibit 1056 consists of a series of E-mails 3 in which you and John Pace were either authors or 4 recipients; correct? 16:34:54 16:35:04 5 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1056.) 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 16:35:28 6 16:35:29 16:35:34 16:35:39 16:35:43 12 A. I'd be speculating. 13 Q. Well, you were a recipient -- the sole Q. Was it the idea of providing summaries as 16:38:26 16:38:29 8 MR. FEE: Same objection. 9 16:38:33 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 16:38:36 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 16:35:48 16:38:41 Q. Does someone -- are you familiar with the 16:35:52 16:35:56 16:35:58 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Does one have to register to gain access to 15 the reading room? 16:38:47 16:38:50 16 A. Yes. 16:36:07 17 Q. What does one have to do to register to get THE WITNESS: I'd infer from this that John 16:36:10 19 16:38:51 18 access to the reading room? 16:36:12 19 Pace was raising concerns that we had already 20 committed to building a reading room and committed 21 extensive resources of his employees' time to help in 16:36:15 20 16:36:21 22 compiling the reading room, and now I was suggesting 23 that, in addition to the reading room, we might want 16:38:44 16:38:47 16:35:59 17 Beyond the scope of his designation as well. 16:38:41 12 operation of the reading room for ASTM today? 14 recipient of that E-mail. So please tell me what your 18 16:38:22 16:38:26 7 opposed to the text of the standards themselves? 16:35:29 9 the first sentence about "sticking to our guns and 16 16:38:18 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 doing the reading room exactly as how we have all 15 understanding was. 16:38:14 3 enterprise, I was recommending that we review a lot of 4 options. One of which was this summaries idea. Q. What did you understand Mr. Pace to mean in 11 agreed to date"? 16:38:12 2 maintaining our viability of our standards development 16:35:28 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 8 1 access to standards incorporated by reference and 16:34:41 21 A. Enter a name and E-mail address. Q. What's the purpose of that? 16:38:52 16:38:55 16:38:56 16:39:00 A. Well, to ensure that it wasn't -- again, I'm 16:39:02 16:36:26 22 not an IT person, but I believe there's some concerns 16:36:28 23 that bots and other types of automatic -- that perhaps 16:39:08 16:39:10 24 to consider other things as well. 16:36:32 24 machines could access our system and pull information 16:39:19 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:36:38 25 in ways that perhaps we weren't intending by providing 16:39:22 Page 213 Page 211 54 (Pages 210 - 213) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 this information to the public. 2 3 and E-mail address? 4 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:39:25 Q. Is that the only reason for requiring a name 16:39:29 16:39:31 A. At one point we discussed -- my goal was to 2 16:41:49 Q. Do you recall requiring that people agree to 16:41:49 3 acknowledge ASTM's copyrights from the standards in 16:41:52 16:39:31 4 order to get access? 5 provide access to U.S. citizens, and we discussed 16:39:35 5 A. That sounds familiar, yes. 6 whether or not it should be available to the others in 16:39:43 6 Q. And so somebody had an argument that for some 7 addition to the U.S. So providing an E-mail address 16:39:48 8 just might have given us some additional information 16:39:52 9 about who was coming to our website for what purpose. 10 Q. Is that so that you could keep certain 16:39:54 16:40:00 11 persons out of the reading room if they were not from 12 the U.S.? 13 16:40:02 7 reason these standards were not subject to copyright, A. Actually, I'm aware that we have some 16:40:06 15 that makes it -- we have to take reasonable steps to 16 prevent technical information from going to whatever 16:40:17 17 countries are designated by the U.S. Department of 16:40:20 16:40:23 Q. What about apart from those restrictions. 11 20 Was there an interest in keeping persons from other 16:40:28 16:42:13 16:42:17 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 16:42:19 16:42:20 13 designated for any legal opinions. 16:42:22 THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney, but I 16:42:26 15 believe that it's clear that -- what's intended. 16:42:27 16 Someone could access the information and read the 16:42:34 17 information but is made aware of the fact that ASTM 16:42:36 18 owns the copyright. 16:40:25 16:42:10 9 up that view in order to get access to the documents 16:40:09 14 16:40:12 16:42:00 16:42:03 8 would that person have to, in your understanding, give 12 conclusion. To the extent it does, he's not 14 restrictions due to the U.S. Treasury Departments OFAC 19 16:41:58 10 in the reading room? 16:40:05 18 Treasury as such. 16:41:56 16:42:42 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 20 16:42:44 Q. It's not only made aware of it. They're 16:42:44 21 countries out of the reading room? 16:40:32 21 forced to agree that ASTM owns a copyright. Is that 22 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 16:40:35 22 not the case? 23 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 16:40:37 23 MR. FEE: Same objections. 24 THE WITNESS: It could be, yes. 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 16:40:39 Q. What else does one have to do to register for 2 E-mail address? 3 16:40:42 16:40:44 MR. FEE: My recollection is you have to 6 16:40:47 16:40:49 16:40:55 Q. Does that require entering into an 16:42:54 1 16:42:55 Page 216 Q. And do you see the third bullet in Mr. Pace's 16:42:55 2 message to you at the top of Exhibit 1056. It says, 4 agree to our policies on the use of the information. 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:42:53 16:40:39 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 214 1 access to the reading room apart from furnishing an 4 you see that? 5 16:40:55 16:43:01 3 "Reading pane is 5-by-7. So you have to scroll." Do A. I see that in the E-mail. 16:43:15 6 Q. Does 5-by-7 mean 5-by-7 inches? 16:40:57 7 A. I don't have knowledge what exactly he's 8 16:41:00 8 referring to. 9 conclusion. Beyond the scope of his designation. To 10 the extent it calls for a legal conclusion, you can 11 answer if you know. 12 16:41:07 THE WITNESS: I'm not an attorney, but I 16 16:41:11 16:41:14 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18 A. To my knowledge, yes. 19 17 23 Q. Do you recall seeing something like that? 16:41:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: No. 16:41:43 16:41:45 16:43:53 16:43:57 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 16:43:59 16:44:01 THE WITNESS: That may certainly be possible. 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:44:08 16:44:21 23 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 24 16:44:25 THE WITNESS: Again, the purpose of the 25 reading room is to provide the public with access to Page 215 16:44:04 16:44:08 Q. Do you know why that would be a feature of a 22 reading room design? 16:41:40 25 19 21 16:41:38 24 16:43:46 16:43:50 18 speculation. May call for expert testimony as well. 16:41:29 A. I'm not certain of that provision. Q. It means that one would have to scroll down 16:41:19 16:41:33 22 16:43:38 16:43:41 15 of the standard, one couldn't read a full page and one 16:41:26 20 location of any lawsuit that would be filed for 21 violation of terms of service? A. Again, I'd speculate that that means you have 16 go without scrolling; correct? Q. And does somebody have to agree about the 16:43:31 16:43:33 12 to navigate your monitor to see it. 13 16:43:28 16:43:30 Q. Do you understand what it means that one has 16:41:16 17 service in order to get access to the reading room? 16:43:17 14 to get a full page of a standard. To read a full page 16:41:16 Q. Does somebody have to agree to terms of 9 10 to "scroll"? 11 16:41:09 13 believe it makes very clear that copyright policy on 14 the documents. 16:41:01 16:41:04 16:43:06 16:43:13 7 enforceable contract with ASTM? MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a legal 16:42:46 16:42:51 16:44:31 16:44:32 Page 217 55 (Pages 214 - 217) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 read the documents. So we're -- I'm pleased that our 16:44:34 2 reading room gives them the ability to do that. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 4 16:44:39 16:44:41 Q. Were you proud of having a design that would 6 you pleased about that? 7 16:44:44 16:44:48 A. We received a lot of accolades for it, and so 16:44:53 9 So I haven't heard complaints beyond what's been 10 discussed here today. 11 16:44:56 16:44:59 Q. Does that feature appear to you to be a user 16:48:31 Q. Does ASTM have any actual facts causing it to 4 believe that putting more standards in its reading 16:48:31 16:48:36 5 room would affect its viability as a standards 16:48:42 6 developer, or is this conclusion based on speculation? 16:44:48 8 to that -- to the fact that the reading room exists. 16:48:28 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 3 16:44:41 5 require people to scroll to read an entire page? Were 1 have today. 7 16:48:50 8 call for expert testimony. Beyond the scope of his 16:48:54 9 designation, and speculation. 10 16:45:00 16:48:46 MR. FEE: Objection to form. Vague. May 16:48:59 THE WITNESS: I'm just aware that for 115 16:49:05 11 years this is the way our model has operated, and it's 16:49:07 16:49:11 12 friendly feature to design into the reading room? 16:45:04 12 served society well with very little complaints from 13 16:45:07 13 our stakeholders. In fact, this is the first case MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. May call for 14 expert testimony. 15 16:45:09 16:49:14 14 where this has become an issue. So that's my answer. THE WITNESS: And I'm not an expert, but I've 16:45:12 15 (Deposition Exhibit 1057 was marked for 16 used the reading room and I've read standards through 16:45:14 16 identification.) 17 it without any problem. 16:45:16 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 16:49:50 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16:45:24 18 16:49:51 Q. Exhibit 1057 is an E-mail from John Pace to Q. The second paragraph of Mr. Pace's E-mail 16:45:24 19 you with earlier E-mails in which you both 20 says, "I haven't chatted with Jim yet." Does "Jim" 16:45:29 20 participate; is that correct? 21 refer to James Thomas, the president of ASTM? 16:45:34 22 A. In this context, I believe it does. 23 Q. And a couple of paragraphs down, it says, "On 16:49:51 16:49:54 16:50:02 21 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1057.) 22 16:45:44 16:49:16 16:49:50 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16:50:15 16:50:15 16:45:47 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 24 the four bullet points above, I know Phil might think 16:45:50 24 25 I'm overdoing it a bit." Whom did you understand 16:45:54 25 "We're getting big bucks annually from DHS." Do you Page 218 16:50:22 Q. At the end of that top E-mail Mr. Pace says, 16:50:22 1 "Phil" to refer to? Is that Phil Lively? 16:46:00 1 see that? 16:50:30 2 A. I believe it would be Phil Lively. 16:46:02 2 A I do 16:50:31 3 Q. Who's Bob Dreyfus? 3 Q What did you understand that to refer to? 16:50:32 4 A. My understanding is Bob Dreyfus is a 4 A I have great respect for John Pace and his 16:50:26 Page 220 16:50:39 16:46:06 16:46:10 5 consultant that works on various IT projects for ASTM. 6 Q. What other IT projects does he work on? 7 A. I'm afraid I don't have knowledge of that. 8 It's outside of my area. 9 16:46:12 16:46:16 16:46:20 16:46:22 16:47:21 10 for public access any of its thousands of standards 16:47:25 11 that have not been incorporated by reference? 16:47:30 A. To the best of my knowledge, no. 13 Q. Why not? 14 16:47:38 16:47:42 9 10 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. Q I'm asking what -- Answer your question 14 15 going to answer it 16:47:53 16 16:47:55 18 developing high quality, market relevant standards 19 that are open, balanced, transparent process, and 16:47:59 16:48:01 20 putting more documents up in the reading room beyond 16:50:47 16:50:47 16:50:47 Q -- does "We're getting big bucks annually 16:47:48 17 role we've played in society for 115 years in 16:50:46 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 12 MR FEE: Answer your question as you were 16:50:50 16:50:51 THE WITNESS: I was going to just describe 16:50:52 17 John Pace as a colorful character that's involved in 18 sales, and he's describing the fact that he's very 16:50:54 16:50:58 19 pleased with the relationship that we have with the 16:51:02 16:48:11 21 ASTM standards to the public where they can access 22 consequences on our ability to maintain our viability 16:48:15 22 print standards, particularly for first responders, at 23 as a standards developer and ensure that the proper 16:48:18 23 a reasonable price point 25 standards process under the expectations that they 16:50:47 16:50:47 16:48:05 20 Department of Homeland Security where we provide 31 21 what's incorporated by reference could have unintended 24 stakeholders have access to participating in the ASTM 16:50:42 16:50:43 MR FEE: Don't cut him off 16:47:45 THE WITNESS: ASTM, we're very proud of the 16:50:41 MR BRIDGES: I move to strike That's not 7 my question 13 from DHS" refer to? 15 That's also beyond the scope of his designation. 16 6 8 Q. Does ASTM make available on its reading room 12 5 experience in -- 16:48:21 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 25 16:48:25 Page 219 16:51:05 16:51:09 16:51:12 16:51:21 16:51:24 Q And what you just said was, in fact, in your 16:51:24 Page 221 56 (Pages 218 - 221) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 E-mail to him in the middle; right? 2 16:51:26 MR. FEE: You want him to compare his 3 testimony verbatim to this E-mail? 16:51:33 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 1 money for? 16:51:32 4 speculation 16:51:36 6 E-mail to him. I was asking him about his E-mail to 16:51:37 7 you and specifically what you understood him to mean 16:51:40 8 by the statement "We're getting big bucks annually 16:51:43 9 from DHS." What did you understand that to mean? 16:51:46 10 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 16:51:50 THE WITNESS: You know, I'm happy to answer 13 that we have a contract with the Department of 5 16:53:57 16:54:03 16:54:04 6 standards were viewed as playing an important role in 7 helping first responders carry out their important 16:54:06 16:54:09 8 mission, and DHS came to ASTM and we figured out a 16:54:12 9 very flexible and reasonable agreement to allow that 16:54:19 10 to happen, which we've done for 115 years of our 13 16:54:21 16:54:25 16:51:54 12 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:51:57 16:53:59 THE WITNESS: I would speculate that these 16:51:53 11 existence 12 what I know about what this could mean. It could mean 16:53:57 MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 3 Beyond the scope of his designation Calls for 16:51:36 Q. What you just said, that comes from your 2 16:54:26 Q Were these standards that had been 16:54:26 14 Homeland Security, or we did at this time, in which 16:52:00 14 incorporated by reference? 15 ASTM received, I believe, $25,000 in funding in 16:52:03 15 A I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that 16 exchange for putting 31 standards up for unlimited 16:52:08 16 Q Do you know whether ASTM had different 17 print and use. This was a deep, discounted price that 16:52:11 17 licensing practices or prices according to whether 16:54:38 16:52:14 18 standards were incorporated by reference or not? 16:54:41 18 John was very -- this was a deep, discounted price, 19 and this went to the fact that we wanted to get our 16:52:23 20 standards in the hands of Homeland Security -- I'm 21 sorry -- of first responders in a way that still 16:52:26 16:52:28 22 allowed us to recoup some of the cost and expense that 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 16:52:41 4 16:52:44 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain as to exactly 16:52:47 6 but at this time in 2012 my understanding was, yes. 16:52:51 7 Because of the relationship we had with DHS, we were 16:52:57 8 allowing the public to come to this website -- come to 16:53:00 9 this portal and access and print, save, and E-mail our 10 standards. I'm not sure if that was the exact 16:53:03 16:53:11 11 functionality that was provided, but that was my 16:53:13 16:53:15 16:53:16 16:53:19 16 print and use. By "unlimited," did you mean unlimited MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 16:53:33 16:53:34 20 particulars of the contractual relationship or the 16:53:35 21 subscription that was negotiated between our sales 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 24 16:54:54 16:54:55 Q Are you aware of any other terms of licenses 16:54:55 16:53:37 16:53:39 4 16:55:00 Page 224 16:55:04 MR FEE: Objection Vague To the extent 16:55:06 16:55:08 THE WITNESS: And I'm sorry You're asking 16:55:13 5 me if under a purchasing agreement with ASTM for a 6 standard? What's the context of the question? 7 BY MR BRIDGES 8 16:55:14 16:55:19 16:55:21 Q Well, I assume that ASTM makes money off of 9 standards in a variety of ways; correct? 16:55:21 16:55:24 10 MR FEE: Objection Vague 11 THE WITNESS: 90 percent of ASTM's revenue 16:55:26 14 from the sale of standards 16:55:31 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 16 Q. What interest did you understand DHS to have 16:55:43 Q My question was I assume that ASTM makes 16:55:43 16:55:46 18 MR FEE: Asked and answered 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah I'm not agreeing with 16:55:52 20 that because 90 percent of the revenue we get from 21 standards is due to the sale of standards 16:55:53 16:55:55 16:55:59 16:56:02 23 16:53:51 16:55:33 16:55:38 16:55:41 22 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:53:51 25 for public access to the standards that it paid the 1 was incorporated by reference or not? 17 money off standards in a variety of ways; correct? THE WITNESS: And I don't know the 22 staff and DHS. 16:53:23 16:53:27 19 22 incorporated by reference or not 13 the sale of publications of which 90 percent comes 16:53:16 15 exchange for putting 31 standards up for unlimited 18 16:54:48 16:54:50 12 comes from -- 80 percent of ASTM's revenue comes from Q. And you said it was $25,000 in funding in 17 into the future? 16:54:45 3 that calls for a legal conclusion 16:52:46 5 what the portal that may have existed at this site, 14 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of any pricing 2 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 20 24 16:52:43 3 12 understanding. MR FEE: Objection to form 16:52:38 25 that differed according to whether an ASTM standard Page 222 1 standards up for unlimited print and use by the 2 public? 16:54:34 19 16:52:35 23 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:52:38 Q. Is it your testimony that ASTM put 31 16:54:31 21 differential, whether or not an ASTM standard is 16:52:31 23 ASTM incurs on the development, delivery of standards. 16:54:28 Q What did you mean by "the sale of standards"? 24 A It's what it sounds -- it's our sales staff 16:56:02 16:56:09 25 The public coming to our website Our sales staff 16:53:53 Page 223 16:56:11 Page 225 57 (Pages 222 - 225) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 working with customers, and it's our distributors, our 16:56:15 1 2:58 2 licensed distributors working with customers on a 16:56:17 2 (A recess was taken from 4:58 p m 3 to 5:07 p m ) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now back on the 3 worldwide basis to negotiate payment for the access to 4 our standards. 5 16:56:24 Q. I'm afraid I don't think you answered my 16:56:29 6 question. I said what did you mean by "the sale of 7 standards"? 8 16:56:31 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 16:56:36 16:56:41 Q. And you say, "our sales staff, the public 12 to my question. What do you mean by "sales of 16:56:46 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 16:56:51 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to meet you here. I 16:56:57 16 believe it's providing a document in exchange for 17 remuneration. 16:56:57 16:57:06 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: (Deposition Exhibit 1058 was marked for identification ) 16:57:07 Q Mr Grove, Exhibit 1058 is a series of 17:09:04 10 E-mails that you are -- appear to be part of -11 intermittently; is that correct? 12 17:09:11 17:09:24 MR FEE: Objection Vague 17:09:26 THE WITNESS: Yes 17:09:30 14 BY MR BRIDGES: 15 17:09:36 Q Did ASTM put the wrong version of one of its 18 16:57:07 19 A I mean there's -- 20 designation 21 16:57:19 21 16:57:25 17:09:41 17:09:46 17:09:51 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 16:57:13 A. Well, someone may come to our website, search 17 09:36 16 standards up that PHMSA wanted to reference? PHMSA 20 provides documents in exchange for remuneration? 22 for a standard, find it in a variety of different 17:09:04 17 being spelled P-H-M-S-A Q. What are the different ways in which ASTM 17:09:04 17 09:04 8 BY MR BRIDGES: 13 16:56:50 14 19 16:56:44 17:08:50 17:08:51 6 9 16:56:41 11 coming to our website." Those don't seem like answers 13 standards"? 5 record at 17:07 17:08:49 17:08:49 7 16:56:35 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 16:56:20 16:59:13 17:09:53 17:09:55 THE WITNESS: That's not what most of these 17:10:12 22 E-mails refer to I'm not sure what the context is of 17:10:13 23 formats, and indicate that they'd like to purchase it 16:57:30 23 that E-mail from Phil to me 17:10:15 24 in one of those formats at the agreed upon price 16:57:35 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 17:10:22 25 point. 16:57:37 25 Q Well, there's context in your response to 17:10:22 Page 226 1 Q. Now, previously you said that you were 16:57:40 2 unaware of any price differential according to whether 3 a standard was incorporated by reference or not; 4 correct? 16:57:43 16:57:47 16:57:51 A. Correct. 6 16:57:52 Q. ASTM engages in some licensing agreements, 16:57:53 16:57:56 16:58:01 A. That's correct. Q. I'm just talking as a commercial matter -- 11 A. Right. 12 Q. -- are you aware of any significant 16:58:06 16:58:08 16:58:08 16:58:10 16:58:18 15 reference and the language of the licenses that ASTM 16 orders for the license of standards that are not 16:58:24 16:58:30 16:58:33 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. To the extent 19 it calls for a legal conclusion. 17:10:26 Q -- saying, "Yes That is the version that A Right 7 Q What was the context of your response? 10 17:10:32 17:10:38 16:58:37 17:10:40 12 possibly we put the wrong version up when, in fact, (Deposition Exhibit 1059 was marked for 16 identification ) 18 17:11:47 17:11:47 17:11:47 Q Exhibit 1059 consists of two E-mails from 16:58:39 20 Commission; is that correct? 16:59:05 21 22 THE WITNESS: It's been -- yeah. I've been 16:59:07 A Yes 16:59:09 17:11:55 22 (Deposition Exhibit 1060 was marked for 23 identification ) MR BRIDGES: I'll show you Exhibit 1060, a 16:59:12 25 two-page exhibit Page 227 17:11:52 17:12:25 24 16:59:11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Now off the record at 17:11:47 19 Sarah Petre at ASTM to someone at the Federal Trade MR. FEE: Do you want to take a break soon? 17:10:47 17:10:50 15 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of that. 23 looking at my watch. I think now would be a good 17:10:43 13 NITSA -- excuse me, FIMSA wanted us to reference the 17 BY MR BRIDGES: 16:58:34 17:10:34 17:10:37 THE WITNESS: It could be that I'd be 21 25 17:10:33 MR FEE: Objection Again, beyond the scope 14 '06 version 17:10:26 17:10:31 6 20 24 time. 17:10:26 11 speculating, but it could be that you're right, that 14 offers for the license of standards incorporated by 18 3 9 of his designation 13 differences in the language of the licenses that ASTM 17 incorporated by reference? A Right 8 16:58:05 10 17:10:23 2 5 hit us for that too " 7 does it not, with other parties regarding the license 9 1 Phil at the top -- 4 PHMSA wants to reference I suppose that Malamud will 5 8 of access to the standards; correct? Page 228 17:15:20 17:15:20 17:15:20 17:15:23 Page 229 58 (Pages 226 - 229) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Q. This is the agreement that a member of the 17:15:26 2 public must agree to in order to gain access to ASTM 17:15:28 3 incorporated by reference standards in the reading 4 room; correct? 17:15:36 17:15:40 A. It appears to be, yes. 6 Q. And the only standards available through this 17:15:49 7 reading room are standards that have been incorporated 17:15:51 8 by reference, I believe you said; correct? 17:15:53 9 17:15:57 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. (Deposition Exhibit 1061 was marked for identification.) 17:16:32 Q. Mr. Grove, what is Exhibit 1061? identification.) 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 17:20:35 17:20:35 17:20:36 Q. Mr. Grove, Exhibit 1062 is an exchange of 17:20:36 8 E-mails between you and Mary McKiel with earlier 9 E-mails in the thread; is that correct? 17:20:51 17:20:59 10 A. Yes, it is. 17:21:29 Q. Does this discussion in the middle of the 17:21:31 12 first page of Exhibit 1062 refer to some EPA 17:21:35 17:16:32 14 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1061.) 15 13 incorporations by reference of certain ASTM standards? 17:17:09 14 THE WITNESS: It appears to be a licensing 16 agreement. (Deposition Exhibit 1062 was marked for 11 17:16:32 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 13 17:16:32 17:19:03 17:19:04 17:19:06 5 17:15:48 11 3 incorporated by reference. 4 5 10 1 have separate policies for standards incorporated by 2 reference versus purchasing standards that are not 17:17:09 17:17:11 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. The document 15 speaks for itself. 16 17:21:58 17:17:12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This was a project I was 17:21:59 17 excited to be part of. We worked with the EPA and the 17:17:12 17:22:00 18 Q. For what? 19 A. For ASTM's copyright protected information. 17:17:13 19 remove mercury from thermometers that are used in the 20 Q. In what circumstances must somebody enter 17:17:22 20 United States because of a threat that they posed to 21 into this license agreement with ASTM? 18 National Institute of Standards and Technology to 17:17:24 22 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 23 THE WITNESS: It's my understanding that a 17:17:28 5 17:17:48 17:17:57 Q. Does this apply to all purchases of ASTM 6 standards? 17:18:01 8 THE WITNESS: Well, it looks pretty basic to 9 me. So within my knowledge, I'd say yes. 11 17:18:04 17:18:11 17:18:13 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: (Deposition Exhibit 1063 was marked for identification.) 17:18:21 Q. Does this apply also to the purchase of paper 8 Q. And you were commenting upon the information 9 relayed to you from Mr. Miller, and before that, from 11 MR. FEE: Same objection. 17:18:27 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what distinctions THE WITNESS: Right. I don't think that -- 17:24:01 14 MR. BRIDGES: Can we stipulate that the 17:24:01 17:18:31 15 document speaks for itself? 16 17:18:38 Q. Does this license agreement apply to both the 17:18:43 17:18:47 (Pause in proceedings.) 23 MR. FEE: Same objection. 24 You can answer. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not aware that we 17:18:51 17:19:00 18 17:24:04 17:24:06 MR. BRIDGES: Well, then I need to ask the 19 witness some questions. 17:24:10 17:24:11 20 MR. FEE: You're welcome to ask him. 21 THE WITNESS: I would actually like to answer 22 that because I believe I'm replying to David Miller's 17:19:00 17:19:01 17:24:03 MR. FEE: The document says what it says. 17 What do you need my stipulation for? 17:18:38 19 purchase of standards incorporated by reference and 22 17:23:58 17:23:59 13 17:18:36 MR. FEE: Hold on a second. 17:23:53 17:18:29 15 are made between our policy for paper versus other 21 17:23:44 17:23:48 MR. FEE: Objection. The document speaks for 13 20 other standards not incorporated by reference? 17:23:28 17:23:41 10 Scott Cooper; is that correct? 17:18:21 17:23:25 A. Yes. Correct. 12 itself. 18 17:23:25 7 17:18:25 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:23:23 17:23:23 Q. Exhibit 1063 is an E-mail from you to your 12 copies of ASTM standards? 16 formats. 17:22:26 2 5 17:22:17 17:22:20 17:22:24 Page 232 6 colleague, Anthony Quinn; correct? MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 17:22:13 1 incorporated by reference in the U.S. code. 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:17:57 7 17:22:10 23 standards was mandated by reference. Excuse me. The 3 17:17:50 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 21 children if they were broken or to those in the lab 17:17:35 24 use of these types of measurement devices containing 17:17:44 2 identifies a number of ways that the information 17:22:05 17:22:08 17:17:40 25 mercury were referenced in standards that were Page 230 1 ways in which the information may be used and 3 should not be used. 17:22:03 22 environment. The difficulty was the use of these 17:17:33 24 user purchaser of ASTM standards would need to agree 25 to a license agreement which authorizes the specific 17:21:49 17:21:53 23 interpretation that this means that language in our 24 standards that implies some things are "shoulds" and 17:19:02 25 "shalls." This particular agency was going to say Page 231 17:24:13 17:24:16 17:24:17 17:24:22 17:24:24 17:24:28 Page 233 59 (Pages 230 - 233) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 that they must be -- they have to be referred to as 1 stakeholders because the government is a very 17:24:32 2 "musts," and this would have the voluntary consensus 3 standards process This isn't the intention when 2 important member. 17:24:35 17:29:07 17:29:09 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:24:39 17:29:11 4 people come together to work in a voluntary consensus 17:24:43 4 5 standard environment They want the words to mean 17:24:47 5 MR. FEE: Objection. 6 You can answer it however you'd like. 17:29:14 7 MR. BRIDGES: He already has. 17:29:17 6 what they carefully craft them to mean in the process, 17:24:49 7 and when -- so I believe that's what I was referring 8 to in this 8 17:24:55 9 BY MR BRIDGES: 10 17:24:52 11 government was changing the standard The government 12 was proposing to change the law; correct? 13 15 14 17:25:29 MR FEE: Same objections And vague 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah That the government was 17:25:41 25 with them 17:29:26 THE WITNESS: I don't believe ASTM would have 17:29:28 17:29:35 Q. You don't think that ASTM has a view as to 21 standards by reference? 17:29:35 24 17:29:44 17:29:46 THE WITNESS: It's never been a performance 25 metric for me. So no. 17:25:57 17:29:39 17:29:43 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and asked and 23 answered. 17:25:50 17:29:49 17:29:50 Page 234 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 2 17:27:38 3 governments to incorporate its standards by reference? 4 MR FEE: Objection Vague 5 Page 236 1 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:27:38 Q Mr Grove, does ASTM encourage any THE WITNESS: As a matter of policy, we make 4 17:27:49 17:27:54 17:29:58 Q. Does ASTM have views about things that are 3 not performance metrics? 17:27:46 17:27:58 6 7 standards and point out and connect with agency 17:28:04 10 standards are incorporated or not 11 BY MR BRIDGES: 12 17:28:12 11 17:28:13 MR FEE: Objection Vague 15 THE WITNESS: So I think it speaks to the 20 that it signifies that the government -- it couldn't 17:30:23 17:30:24 17 reference -- strike that. 21 17:30:36 23 17:28:57 17:30:46 17:30:48 17:30:50 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 17:30:51 17:30:55 THE WITNESS: I believe over the years I 17:30:56 24 might have pointed out to my superiors that a standard 17:29:00 25 has become incorporated as something significant. 17:29:04 Page 235 17:30:39 17:30:44 Do your performance reviews ever mention the 22 designation. 17:30:27 17:30:36 Q. Is your -- do your performance reviews ever 20 reference? 17:28:52 17:28:54 25 fact that ASTM standards are relied upon by all of our THE WITNESS: Generally, my performance is 19 degree of incorporation of ASTM standards by 17:28:46 22 they're looking to a voluntary consensus standards 17:30:16 17:30:20 16 mention the degree of adoption of ASTM standards by 18 17:28:37 17:28:42 21 do what we've done with the same effectiveness So So in some ways I might take pride in the 17:28:29 17:28:34 19 respected for their technical excellence I believe 17:30:14 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 12 based on the job I've done in removing worldwide 15 17:28:28 16 significance of ASTM and to the breadth of ASTM when 18 reference because it does signify that they are widely Q. What performance metrics do you have? 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:28:22 17 you see ASTM standards become incorporated by 17:30:11 17:30:14 13 barriers to the acceptance and use of ASTM standards. 17:28:20 14 THE WITNESS: It could. 10 designation. 17:28:13 13 incorporate its standards by reference? 24 9 17:28:09 Q Is ASTM generally pleased when governments 23 group in utilizing those standards 8 17:28:07 17:30:05 17:30:06 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 9 should be the ones that determine whether or not our 17:29:58 17:30:01 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 5 designation. Vague. 6 organizations -- sorry -- governments aware of our 8 missions But in the end, we respect that agencies 17:29:29 17:29:31 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 22 17:25:46 24 to without coming back to the organization and working 17:29:26 Q. What about speaking for ASTM? 20 whether it is pleased when governments incorporate its 17:25:43 23 consensus standard group didn't necessarily intend it 17:29:23 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 19 17:25:36 22 interpreting a standard in a way that the voluntary THE WITNESS: Speaking for Jeff Grove, yes. 17 an official position. 17:25:31 20 17:29:21 17:29:22 16 17:25:24 Q That the government would be changing the law 17:29:20 MR. FEE: Same objection. Asked and 15 17:25:22 17:25:29 19 as the law interprets the standard? 17:29:18 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:25:11 THE WITNESS: I guess I would be speculating, 17 BY MR BRIDGES: Q. I'm now asking him is the answer to my 11 answered. 12 17:25:13 16 but that was my interpretation of what this means 18 17:25:02 17:25:07 MR FEE: Objection The document speaks for 14 itself Calls for speculation 10 17:25:00 17:29:11 17:29:13 9 question "yes." 17:25:00 Q Well, Mr Miller was not saying that the Q. So is the answer to my question "yes"? 17:30:57 17:31:00 Page 237 60 (Pages 234 - 237) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 BY MR BRIDGES: 2 3 1 17:31:05 MR FEE: Same objection Whatever document 4 that you're referencing will speak for itself as well THE WITNESS: It could 6 (Deposition Exhibit 1064 was marked for 7 identification ) 8 MR BRIDGES: I'll hand you an exhibit marked (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1064 ) 11 MR BRIDGES: And, actually, I'm going to add A Just the cover sheet and this (indicating) A Okay 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17:37:30 17:37:43 17:37:44 Q. What was redacted from the first page and a MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't have knowledge 18 what was redacted. 20 17:34:21 17:38:05 Q. Has ASMA -- has ASME, to your knowledge, 22 potential litigation? 17:34:21 MR. FEE: Hold on one second. 24 (Pause in proceedings.) 25 17:34:31 17:38:18 MR. FEE: You can answer that yes or no. 17:38:30 17:38:31 Page 240 Page 238 1 MR. FEE: Is this 1065, did you say? 2 MR. BRIDGES: 1064. 17:34:37 3 MR. FEE: Okay. Sorry. 4 MR. BRIDGES: -- an E-mail to you by Lorraine 17:34:40 3 17:34:43 5 Carli of NFPA, including two attachments. One's 17:34:47 6 called an "SDO Proposal," and the other is called "SDO 17:34:49 7 Power Point Presentation." 17:34:53 8 17:34:56 9 attachment is one of these phantom attachments. MR. FEE: Okay. 11 12 sorry. 14 17:35:15 17:35:17 A. Yes, I do. 17 MR FEE: Objection To the extent your 17:38:42 17:38:46 6 awareness would be as a result of any communications 17:38:49 17:38:51 17:38:53 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 17:39:05 11 17:39:07 Q Do you recall what discussions you had with 13 A I'd be speculating, but I believe it's -- I 17:39 07 17:39:11 17:39:26 17:35:17 Q. Does this pertain to the retention of APCO, 14 see that Scott Cooper -- she asked Scott Cooper from 15 ANSI if she would introduce -- "I'd very much 17:35:23 17:39:32 17:39:36 16 appreciate it if you would introduce some of the SDO 17:35:24 18 which we referred to -- which you referred to earlier 17:35:26 17:35:29 20 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Form. 21 17 folks He introduced me " And that's the extent of 18 the E-mail I see in front of me 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it appears as if it did. 17:35:30 17:35:36 17:35:41 Q. Does this relate to the engagement that ASTM 24 and NFPA had with APCO for government relations 25 outreach? 5 17:35:18 16 23 17:38:40 12 personnel at NFTA or ASME about Emily Bremer? 15 attachments from Lorraine Carli at NFPA? 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q At this time are you aware of whether ASTM 4 was contemplating litigation against Public Resource? 10 BY MR BRIDGES: 17:35:14 Q. Do you recall receiving this E-mail and the 19 in testimony? 17:38:38 17:38:40 8 have an awareness otherwise, you can answer 17:35:09 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: THE WITNESS: I don't know 7 from counsel, I'd instruct you not to answer If you 17:35:01 THE WITNESS: Is there a question? I'm 1 2 BY MR BRIDGES: 17:34:42 10 17:38:05 17:38:10 17:38:15 23 17:34:23 17:34:27 I'll represent to Mr. Fee that the last 17:37:52 21 entered into any agreement with ASTM regarding 17:34:21 24 Exhibit 1064 consists of an E-mail to you from 17:37:50 17:37:55 19 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 were produced by ASTM I just want to verify that 17:37:44 17:37:48 17 17:33:56 Q I just want to verify, Mr Grove, that these 25 Lorraine Carli at NFPA -- (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1065.) 16 17:33:51 17:33:53 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1064 ) 17:37:17 17:37:20 15 half of Exhibit 1065? 17:34 03 21 BY MR BRIDGES: MR. BRIDGES: I've handed you Exhibit 1065. Q. Do you recognize this exhibit? 12 14 Q How many pieces of paper did I give you? Q Okay Here's the rest of the exhibit 9 17:37:17 17:37:17 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:33:51 19 identification.) 11 17:33:04 17:33:51 18 (Deposition Exhibit 1065 was marked for 10 17:33:34 17 20 17:32:22 17:33:03 12 more to the document It's going to be ASTM099269 to 16 17:36:09 17:36:13 8 17:32:20 17:33:02 15 BY MR BRIDGES: A. Yes. 7 17:32:20 (Pause in proceedings ) 17:36:09 Q. I just mentioned ASTM and NFPA. 6 17:32:20 17:36:07 17:36:09 5 9 1064 It consists of Pages ASTM099269 to ASTM099335 14 17:35:58 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:31:26 10 13 -099360 THE WITNESS: Who are the organizations you 3 mentioned? 17:31 07 17:31:13 5 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 2 17:31:05 Q As something pertaining to your performance? 17:39:56 20 asking you apart from that document What discussions 17:39:59 21 did ASTM have with personnel at NFPA and ASME about 23 25 17:40:12 17:40:14 THE WITNESS: Yeah I may have let other Page 239 17:40:02 17:40:11 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 17:35:50 24 designation and calls for speculation 17:35:55 17:39:53 Q What's the extent of your knowledge? I'm 22 Emily Bremer? 17:35:41 17:39:41 17:39:43 17:40:16 Page 241 61 (Pages 238 - 241) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 SDOs, including NFPA and ASME, know that I had the 2 opportunity to speak with Ms Bremer 3 BY MR BRIDGES: 4 12 5 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall 8 11 designation. 17:40:44 13 BY MR BRIDGES: 12 Q -- about your interactions with Ms Bremer? 15 MR FEE: Same objection, plus potentially 16 calls for a legal conclusion THE WITNESS: Not that I recall 18 identification ) 20 16 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've shown you 22 A Yes 25 17:45:00 Q. You think that setting standards for you 17:45:00 17:45:03 MR. FEE: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: I believe the best way to spur 17:45:07 3 17:45:28 25 consensus decision. That's where I believe the 17:41:53 (Deposition Exhibit 1067 was marked for 4 identification.) 17:41:56 17:43:26 17:45:31 Page 244 17:43:27 8 correspondence between James Thomas and you? 10 13 I hope this is level of enthusiasm he generates." Did 15 17 Q. Where were you at the time that he said to 17:44:04 17:44:07 A. Well, I believe -- I said, "I'll be coaching 22 Little League this weekend." 23 25 17:44:10 17:44:15 And he replied, "Wear sunscreen and have 24 fun." 17:44:01 17:44:04 20 you, "Wear sunscreen and have fun"? 21 17:43:55 17:43:56 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he meant. 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 17:43:50 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 7 17:44:16 17:45:55 8 something like if the standard was available -- more 17:45:57 9 widely available, that would allow others that aren't 17:46:01 17:46:07 17:46:14 17:46:17 13 Q. And you think that would be a bad idea? 17:46:18 14 MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the 17:46:21 15 scope of his designation again. 17:46:22 16 But you can answer. 17 17:46:23 THE WITNESS: I do. I believe the best place 17:46:25 18 to do that is an environment based on consensus, not 19 one person acting independently. 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 21 17:46:26 17:46:30 17:46:31 Q. Well, what about other people making comments 22 based on their awareness of standards that they had 23 not previously been aware of? 24 17:44:18 Q. What is it about the argument about setting 17:45:52 A. I don't recall the specifics, but I believe 17:43:42 12 standards development. 17:43:45 14 you understand what he meant by "not much here"? 17:45:41 17:45:48 11 existing standard outside of the normal process of 17:43:42 Q. Mr. Thomas wrote down below, "Not much here. 17:45:41 Q. Was it your understanding that Carl Malamud 10 members of committees to comment and reiterate on the 17:43:37 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 17:43:31 17:43:37 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 17:45:34 17:45:37 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 6 standards? 17:43:26 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1067.) 2 innovation process comes into play. 5 criticized the consensus process of developing the 17:43:26 Is Exhibit 1067 an exchange of E-mail 1 innovation and the creativity that's involved in the 4 17:43:26 5 BY MR. BRIDGES: 9 17:45:25 24 all different stakeholder communities to reach a 17:41:51 Q. Do you -- strike that. 17:45:20 23 due process where you can work with your peers from 17:41:45 17:41:49 A. Len Morrissey is a staff manager that works 7 17:45:16 22 transparent, with a lot of openness, transparency, and 2 with our consumer products safety related committees. 6 17:45:11 21 voluntary consensus standards environment, open, 17:41:40 Page 242 1 17:45:09 20 innovation is to -- using standards, is to work in the 17:41:37 17:41:38 Q Who is Len Morrissey? 17:44:47 17:44:57 18 17:41:36 17:41:36 Q And I ask is this an E-mail that you received 24 17:44:45 17 would not spur investment and innovation? 17:41:05 23 from Len Morrissey? 17:44:41 17:44:43 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:40:51 (Deposition Exhibit 1066 was marked for 19 17:44:41 THE WITNESS: I believe it's based on a 14 standards. 17:40:45 17:40:52 17 17:44:38 13 misperception about the -- what's contained in the 17:40:45 14 17:44:38 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 17:40:41 MR FEE: Same objections 21 Exhibit 1066 10 17:44:32 17:44:34 Q. What's the factual basis for your 9 disagreement? 17:40:39 17:40:41 Q Is there anything confidential -- 17:44:30 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:40:34 17:44:28 THE WITNESS: I would fundamentally disagree 6 with that statement. 17:40:37 10 BY MR BRIDGES: 11 4 designation. MR FEE: Objection Vague Beyond the 17:44:22 17:44:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 17:40:31 17:40:33 8 scope of his designation 9 3 17:40:30 Q Was there something secret about your 6 Ms Bremer? 1 standards free, will spur investment and integration 2 that really grated on you? 17:40:30 5 conversations with those organizations about 7 17:40:18 17:40:25 17:46:38 MR. FEE: Objection. Again, beyond the scope 25 of his designation. 17:44:20 Page 243 17:46:32 17:46:34 17:46:40 17:46:42 Page 245 62 (Pages 242 - 245) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 You can answer. 2 1 ASTM's standards that have been incorporated by THE WITNESS: We would welcome them to 17:46:44 17:46:47 3 participate in the standards development process and 4 share their ideas freely with their colleagues to 17:46:51 17:46:53 5 contribute to the development of an appropriate 6 standard. 17:46:59 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 8 9 17:46:57 17:49:41 2 reference by the federal government would be harmful 3 to ASTM? 4 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 Form. Vague. 17:49:54 17:49:59 6 Q. But not as a member of the public? 17:47:02 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. It's also, I 17:47:04 Go ahead. 7 17:47:02 THE WITNESS: I think that the reading room 17:50:07 8 that we've crafted represented a lot of internal 17:50:07 17:50:08 9 debate and represented the position that the ASTM 10 think, beyond the scope of his designation. 17:47:08 11 To the extent you understand the question. 17:47:11 11 solution to providing the public with access to the 12 THE WITNESS: So I believe members of the 17:50:12 10 board of directors felt comfortable with as our 17:50:16 12 standards incorporated by reference while retaining 17:47:14 14 standards and share information with technical 13 our ability to protect the viability of ASTM as a 17:47:17 17:47:20 17:50:26 15 commitments to our stakeholders. 16 them to work with voluntary consensus standards 17:47:25 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:47:29 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 17 17:47:31 Q. So I didn't hear any of your answers just now 18 17:47:31 20 referring to the fact that Mr. Malamud had thought 17:47:32 21 that the public should have access to the published 17:47:35 22 standards for free when those standards have been 17:47:37 23 incorporated by reference. Do you believe that 17:47:41 24 Mr. Malamud's belief that the public should have free 17:47:46 25 and unfettered access to ASTM standards that have been 1 incorporated by reference by the federal government is 2 harmful? 3 MR. FEE: Objection. Mischaracterizes his 17:47:56 17:50:40 Q. Well, you're making a speech. I'm asking you 22 to answer my question, please. 17:48:06 4 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. I 5 object also to the factual statements before the 17:48:08 17:48:16 17:48:19 MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and answered. But you can answer. 17:48:20 8 THE WITNESS: Obviously, I find that it would 17:50:46 Page 248 Q. My question is is it ASTM's view that free 17:48:22 17:48:27 10 in providing the public with some access so they can 5 8 17:48:35 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 13 get the reading room up and running. So I don't 17:48:40 13 14 disagree on that aspect of what you just put in front 17:48:45 20 federal government -A. Is harmful. 22 Q. No. The transcription here didn't make 24 17:49:02 17:49:21 23 sense. So I need to start again. MR. FEE: No. Answer how you feel is 17:51:30 17:51:32 THE WITNESS: Free and unfettered access at 17:51:33 17:51:35 17 consequences -- unintended consequences might be on 19 enterprise. So I would be concerned. 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:49:28 17:49:30 17:51:37 17:51:42 17:51:47 17:51:50 21 17:49:23 Is it your view -- sorry. Is it ASTM's view 25 that free and unfettered access by the public to 17:51:29 17:48:57 18 our ability to fund our standards development 17:49:05 21 Q. Yes or no? 16 this time, we don't understand what the 17:48:51 19 that have been incorporated by reference by the 17:51:28 17:51:29 14 appropriate. Q. You don't disagree with the statement of free 17:51:15 17:51:18 Asked and answered, and form. 17:48:37 18 and unfettered access by the public to ASTM standards 17:51:12 MR. FEE: No. You will get whatever answer 9 he wants. 15 17:51:04 17:51:12 Q. And I'd like a "yes" or "no" to that, please. 12 that's why I've worked on this project for years, to 17:48:51 17:50:56 17:50:58 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. 10 17:48:47 17:50:50 4 the federal government would be harmful to ASTM? 17:48:32 11 read standards that are incorporated by reference, and 17 17:50:46 3 standards that have been incorporated by reference by 7 9 be in the best interests of ASTM to strike a balance 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:50:44 17:50:44 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 7 15 of me. 17:50:40 17:50:42 24 He's done that. 1 17:50:37 17:50:38 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 17:50:35 2 and unfettered access by the public to ASTM's MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 6 question. 17:50:35 Q. So your answer to my question is "yes"? 19 testimony. 21 17:50:30 17:50:33 17:47:50 25 BY MR. BRIDGES: Page 246 17:48:04 17:50:23 14 standards development enterprise, to meet our future 15 committees. So there's already avenues available to 17 bodies. 17:50:20 17:47:13 13 public do, from time to time, comment on ASTM 17:49:44 17:49:51 Q. As Tim would be concerned. 22 MR. FEE: Same objection. 17:51:53 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17:51:54 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:49:37 25 Page 247 Q. ASTM is afraid? 17:51:50 17:51:55 17:51:55 Page 249 63 (Pages 246 - 249) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 MR FEE: Objection Vague This is beyond You can answer if you know how ASTM feels 4 THE WITNESS: ASTM would be concerned 6 17:54:55 Q. You can't recall any? 17:54:55 6 MR. FEE: Same objection. 17:54:56 7 17:52:22 THE WITNESS: No. 17:54:58 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:52:27 9 government would be harmful to the public? 17:54:53 5 17:52:19 8 been incorporated by reference by the federal 17:54:48 THE WITNESS: I can't recall. 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:52:16 17:52:19 Q Is it ASTM's view that free and unfettered MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 3 17:52:09 7 access by the public to ASTM's standards that have 17:54:46 2 17:52:02 3 5 BY MR BRIDGES: 1 experts other than John Pace? 17:51:57 2 the scope of his designation Calls for speculation 9 17:52:29 17:55:01 Q. Can you recall how many conversations of that MR FEE: Objection Vague and ambiguous I 17:52:35 10 sort you've had? 11 think it might be beyond the scope of his designations 17:52:40 11 10 12 too Well, to the extent it's beyond the scope of his 13 designation, I'll object on that and -14 15 could be if it undermined our ability to continue to 17 years, which allows participation of all key 21 that 22 17:55:35 19 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 17:55:43 17:55:51 17:53:11 22 17:53:17 23 consensus standards developed by the Internet 24 ASTM standards that have been incorporated by Q. Is ASTM aware of standards -- voluntary 24 engineering task force? 17:53:24 25 reference by the federal government would cause ASTM 17:53:28 25 17:55:51 17:55:56 17:56:01 MR. FEE: Objection. This is beyond the 17:56:03 Page 252 Page 250 1 to lose the ability to continue its standards 4 17:53:43 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. 17:53:48 7 17:53:49 8 it devalues the collection of standards, the volumes 17:53:57 17:53:58 9 of standards that we sell to our commercial customers 17:54:01 10 in order to fund our standards development enterprise 17:54:05 11 which helps to offset all the various costs that are 17:54:10 12 associated with standards development. 14 17:56:08 17:56:10 4 If you know individually, you can answer. 5 THE WITNESS: I've heard of the IETF, but we 17:56:11 17:56:13 6 have no interactions with them that I'm aware of. I 17:53:54 THE WITNESS: And one concern would be that 17:54:13 13 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:56:04 2 the extent you're asking him to speak on behalf of the 3 company. 17:53:47 5 Lack of foundation. Calls for expert testimony. 6 Form. 1 scope of his designation. Calls for speculation to 17:53:35 2 development process to the extent it has done so in 3 the past? 17:55:47 17:55:49 21 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:53:11 17:55:37 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of case studies 20 such as you've suggested. 17:53:07 23 that free and unfettered access by the public to the 7 don't study their policies. 9 17:54:17 17:56:16 17:56:19 8 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:56:23 Q. You're aware that IETF engages in the 17:56:23 10 development of voluntary consensus standards? 11 17:56:26 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Calls for 17:56:29 12 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. 13 17:54:17 Q. I understand your answer to relate to a 17:56:30 THE WITNESS: What I know about IETF is 14 that they're a voluntary -- I'm not aware that they 17:56:34 17:56:37 15 concern, but my question was different. My question 17:54:19 15 develop voluntary consensus standards under an ANSI 16 was what facts are available to ASTM? What's your 17:54:22 16 accredited process. I believe they might develop 17 answer? 18 19 answered. 20 17:54:29 THE WITNESS: And my facts would be based on 21 conversations with folks like John Pace and other 22 experts on the sale of standards. The impacts on 17:54:35 21 17:56:56 Q. Are you aware of any shortcomings in the 17:54:42 23 develops standards? 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:54:44 24 Q. What conversations have you had with such 17:56:56 22 process by which the Internet engineering task force 23 ASTM's business model. 25 17:56:49 17:56:52 17:54:32 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 17:54:34 17:56:45 18 wouldn't consider those to be voluntary consensus 19 standards. 17:54:31 17:56:39 17:56:42 17 consortia or other types of specifications. We 17:54:28 MR. FEE: Same objections, plus asked and 17:55:21 17:55:31 18 May call for expert testimony. 17:53:02 What facts are available to ASTM to indicate 17:55:12 17 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. 17:53:07 Q What facts are available to you -- strike Q. Are you aware of any case studies where other 16 17:53:00 17:53:02 19 BY MR BRIDGES: 17:55:07 15 to the public on a free and unfettered basis? 17:52:57 18 stakeholder groups by keeping the barriers low 17:55:05 14 voluntary consensus standards have been made available 17:52:56 16 develop standards under the model we have for 118 20 13 17:52:52 THE WITNESS: Okay And I would answer it A. I can't recall a number, but it's a frequent 12 topic of discussion with John Pace and I. 17:52:45 17:55:01 17:55:02 17:56:58 17:57:03 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 25 It's beyond the scope of his designation. 17:54:44 Page 251 17:57:04 17:57:06 Page 253 64 (Pages 250 - 253) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 2 MR. BRIDGES: Strike that. 17:57:10 1 standards empower and promote creativity? Q. Is ASTM aware of any shortcomings in the 17:57:12 2 3 process by which engineering task force develops 17:57:15 18:01:23 3 designation Calls for speculation Vague and 4 standards? 5 17:57:19 4 ambiguous MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 17:57:19 6 It's beyond the scope of his designation. May call 7 for expert testimony. 8 17:57:23 17:57:26 13 17:57:28 (Pause in proceedings.) 15 Q. I believe you said that Mr. Malamud's view 17:58:27 17 misunderstanding of what's in the standards. Do you 17:58:31 17:58:34 17:58:36 THE WITNESS: Now that I hear that read back 22 to me, I had a poor choice of words. 17:58:47 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 24 A. I was -- 18:01:58 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 18:02:01 18:02:02 18:02 06 THE WITNESS: It's possible 15 MR BRIDGES: Why don't we take a break, and 18:02:12 16 I'll sort out how much time we have left 18:02:24 18:02:26 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 18:01 (A recess was taken from 6:01 p m 19 to 6:13 p m ) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record here at 21 18:13 22 17:58:50 Q. What should you have said? 25 17:58:44 18:02:29 18:14:27 18:14:27 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've shown you 18:14:38 18:14:43 24 This is an E-mail from ASTM to someone regarding 17:58:56 18:14:27 18:14:29 23 Exhibit 1068, which is a document produced by ASTM 17:58:50 18 01:45 18:01:51 10 governments to incorporate by reference? 18 17:58:33 MR. FEE: Objection. Mischaracterizes his 20 testimony. Beyond the scope of his designation. 21 18:01:42 14 17:58:18 16 that grated on your nerves was based on a 19 Q Do you think it's possible that some new 8 modes of standards development might compete with ASTM 13 ambiguous and hypothetical 17:58:18 18 recall that testimony? 18:01:39 18:01:42 12 designation Calls for speculation Vague and 17:58:18 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:01:35 THE WITNESS: No, I can think of another 6 BY MR BRIDGES: 11 17:57:28 18:01:26 18:01:29 9 in the formulation of standards appropriate for 17:57:27 Q. A while back -- excuse me. 5 7 17:57:25 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 17:57:21 To the extent you know personally, you can 9 answer. 10 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 25 ASTM's policies in response to a request for 18:14:47 18:14:55 Page 254 1 MR. FEE: Just so we're clear, you didn't 17:59:01 4 THE WITNESS: Could I refresh my memory or (Record read.) 17:59:06 8 18:00:15 10 identification.) 4 THE WITNESS: It appears to be. (Deposition Exhibit 1069 was marked for identification.) 18:00:15 8 18:15:06 18:15:06 18:15:06 18:15:25 18:15:25 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:00:15 Q. What was the "misperception" that you 9 referred to in that answer? 17:59:08 17:59:10 (Deposition Exhibit 1068 was marked for 6 MR. BRIDGES: No. 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:15:01 2 3 17:59:03 3 6 1 permission; is that correct? 5 2 actually read an answer back to him; right? 5 have it read back? Page 256 18:15:25 Q. I ask you to look at Exhibit 1069. This is a 18:00:21 10 thread regarding a request for permission to use 18:00:23 A. So it would depend on the specific standard, 18:15:25 9 discussion within ASTM with an underlying E-mail 18:00:17 11 material from an ASTM standard; is that correct? 11 and I don't recall which ones or -- may have been 18:15:31 18:15:35 18:15:47 18:00:28 12 13 discussion was relating to. But the idea that -- as 18:00:30 13 Beyond the scope of his designation. 14 we discussed earlier, the idea that, outside of a 18:00:38 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:15:55 15 18:15:55 12 mentioned in the business week article that this 15 standards development process, there could be 18:00:41 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 18:15:51 18:15:53 Q. I think it's within the scope of his 16 innovation around a standard to me raises -- is a 18:00:44 16 designation. That's why I'm asking him about it. 18:15:57 17 misperception because it will just create more 18:00:51 17 MR. FEE: We can agree to disagree on that. 18:16:01 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What was the 18 confusion in the marketplace where there will be 18:00:53 19 conflicting standards developed by somebody or some 20 group of people who didn't operate under a consensus 21 based accredited process to develop rigorous quality 22 based standards. 23 24 empower innovation and creativity. 25 18:01:00 18:01:11 18:01:14 Q. Does ASTM believe that only its process and 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:16:26 18:16:30 21 Q. This is an internal ASTM E-mail; correct? 18:16:30 22 18:01:05 18:01:10 And that's where I believe ASTM standards 18:16:25 18:00:56 19 question I'm saying "yes" or "no" to? MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 18:16:35 23 THE WITNESS: Correct. 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 18:01:19 Page 255 Q. Who is Ms. Hooper? 18:16:37 18:16:38 18:16:38 Page 257 65 (Pages 254 - 257) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 A. Kathe Hooper is responsible for permissions 2 at ASTM. 18:16:38 3 Q. Who is Joe Koury? 18:16:49 4 A. Joe Koury is a staff manager that works with 5 technical committees. 18:16:51 (Deposition Exhibit 1070 was marked for 18:17:06 7 identification.) 8 MR. BRIDGES: I'm showing you Exhibit 1070. 9 Q. This is an E-mail from Ms. Hooper responding 18:17:06 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1070.) THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 (Deposition Exhibit 1071 was marked for 14 identification.) 18:18:11 18:18:11 18:18:12 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1071.) MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation -- 20 strike that. No objection. 21 18:18:26 18:18:27 THE WITNESS: So it's an E-mail between ASTM 25 A. Correct. 18:20:48 Q. You may answer. 18:20:48 9 MR. FEE: Hold on. Lack of foundation. 18:20:49 11 Go ahead. THE WITNESS: Yeah. So I think we think -- 18:20:53 18:20:55 18:20:55 13 we want to make sure that Congress is aware of the 16 the most recent version. 18:20:59 18:21:02 18 18:21:12 Q. Ms. Petre asked you whether ASTM should 18:21:12 19 request that Congress use the language. Does ASTM 22 18:21:17 18:21:21 18:21:25 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 23 designation. 18:18:48 18:21:32 18:21:36 24 You can answer. 25 18:18:51 18:21:05 18:21:08 18:18:42 21 regarding ASTM standards? 18:18:44 18:18:48 Q. And within the ASTM -- 8 18:20:40 20 ever request Congress to use particular language 22 and Congressional staff and then ASTM staff, correct. 24 18:20:39 6 scope of his designation. Calls for speculation. 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:18:26 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:20:38 15 oftentimes it may be unintended that they're not using 18:18:12 18:18:16 19 MR. FEE: Objection to form. Beyond the 14 fact there may be a more recent version because Q. Exhibit 1071 is an E-mail from Sarah Petre to 18 (Record read.) 12 18:17:58 17 you and others; is that correct? 4 10 18:17:59 15 BY MR. BRIDGES: 16 18:17:12 18:17:17 12 18:20:20 7 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:17:06 18:20:11 18:20:19 5 6 11 MR. FEE: Can you read that back to me, 3 please. 18:16:53 10 to a permission request; is that correct? 1 legislation that causes an incorporation by reference? 2 18:16:47 THE WITNESS: Okay. I can think of instances 18:21:36 18:21:38 Page 260 Page 258 1 Q. And it's discussing Congressional 2 legislation; is that correct? 3 1 like this where Congress -- what's happening here is 18:21:40 2 this is incorporation by reference by Congress and not MR. FEE: Objection. The document speaks for 4 itself. 5 18:18:51 18:18:54 18:18:56 18:18:57 3 by an agency, and the concern that's expressed at 4 times by our committee members is if Congress acts to THE WITNESS: Legislation passed the House 18:19:10 18:21:57 18:22:02 18:19:11 6 freezes that piece of -- that reference in statute for 7 Petre recognized that there's references to ASTM 18:19:16 7 years to come and agencies -- since it's something 8 standards which are out of date, and she wanted to 18:19:18 8 that Congress said, agencies will simply say, "Hey, 9 contact the staffer to make him aware of that fact. 11 18:19:22 18:19:26 Q. Was this a discussion about incorporation by 12 reference? 18:19:26 13 MR. FEE: Same objection. 14 18:19:29 18 18:19:41 22 THE WITNESS: It appears, yes. 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 24 18:19:48 18:19:52 18:22:32 15 version. 18:22:36 18:22:38 Q. Mr. Grove, again, you didn't answer my 18:22:38 18 question. My question is does ASTM ever request 18:22:40 19 Congress to use particular language regarding ASTM 21 18:19:55 Q. Does ASTM have a view as to which versions of 25 its standard Congress should include in its 18:22:29 20 standards? 18:19:54 18:20:01 18:22:26 14 in making sure Congress is aware as a more current 17 18:19:41 19 incorporation by reference into a federal law of an MR. FEE: Same objection. 18:22:21 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: Q. Is that for Congress's use in making an 21 18:19:37 18:19:40 20 ASTM standard? 18:22:19 13 current version language. That's why we're interested 18:19:35 15 Congressional intent to use the most recent standard, 17 BY MR. BRIDGES: So that's a concern that I'm familiar with, 11 and I can't tell if that -- I don't recall the 18:22:12 18:22:16 12 circumstances of this here, but that's the most THE WITNESS: It's a discussion about 16 I believe. 18:22:06 9 talk to Congress, not to agencies about it." 10 18:19:28 18:21:52 5 designate a specific standard in legislation that 6 and now it's being referred to the Senate, and Sarah 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:21:45 18:21:48 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18:20:01 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:20:07 25 Page 259 18:22:46 MR. FEE: Same objections. Plus asked and 22 answered. 18:22:43 18:22:47 18:22:50 18:22:52 18:22:55 Q. To your knowledge, has ASTM ever asked 18:22:55 Page 261 66 (Pages 258 - 261) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Congress or a federal agency not to incorporate any of 2 its standards by reference? 3 18:23:00 4 designation 18:23:07 18:23:15 18:23:21 18:25:46 MR FEE: Objection Mischaracterizes his 9 testimony Vague 18:23:31 11 the federal government may incorporate its standards 12 by reference? 18:25:42 8 18:23:31 Q Has ASTM ever imposed conditions on whether 18:25:40 7 government in incorporating standards by reference? 18:23:26 9 BY MR BRIDGES: 18:25:40 Q Are you saying that there has to be a 6 consensus process in order to cooperate with a federal 18:23:24 8 reference, but I can't recall an instance 5 18:25:54 10 You can answer 18:25:58 THE WITNESS: No, that's not what I'm saying 12 BY MR BRIDGES: MR FEE: Same objection Vague as well 14 THE WITNESS: I don't have direct knowledge 18:23:44 13 18:23:52 15 It was before my time at ASTM, but I understand at one 16 point in time there was a concern that Congress was 18:26:00 18:26:14 Q Do you know whether any federal official has 18:26:14 14 taken advantage of the reading room that ASTM provides 18:23:54 18:23:58 17 perhaps taking ASTM -- taking key content from an ASTM 18:25:52 11 18:23:37 18:23:42 13 18:25:35 18:25:38 4 BY MR BRIDGES: 6 it's possible that there's been reasons why committees 10 3 ASTM 18:23:09 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no I believe 7 haven't wanted to see standards incorporated by 18:25:33 2 has happened in the last 10 years since I've been at MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 5 1 don't think it happens very often, but I believe it 18:23:04 15 the public? 16 18:24:03 MR FEE: Objection Vague 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know specifically 18:26:23 18:26:30 18 standard and placing it in a piece of legislation and 18:24:09 18 whether they have I do know I've received accolades 19 that ASTM would be concerned about that 18:24:13 19 from federal agencies, the fact that it exists So I 20 BY MR BRIDGES: 21 18:24:16 20 would presume that they have Q Why would ASTM be concerned about that? 22 18:24:16 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 23 designation Calls for speculation Lack of 24 foundation 25 18:24:20 18:24:22 18:26:44 Q How much money has ASTM received from the 23 federal government in each of the last five years? 18:24:24 MR FEE: Objection Vague 25 18:24:26 18:26:44 18:26:49 24 THE WITNESS: It would be taking the standard 18:26:31 18:26:34 18:26:40 21 BY MR BRIDGES: 22 18:26:17 18:26:22 18:26:58 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe we've received 18:27:00 Page 262 1 out of context from what the voluntary consensus 3 enterprises wanted to see represented in the standard 4 BY MR BRIDGES: 5 7 9 12 MR FEE: Same objection 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall a particular 17 times it's occurred? 18 18:27:37 Q. What were the main categories of payments by 13 the federal government to ASTM over the last five 18:24:59 15 18:25:01 17 24 have to reach a consensus that they want to see an 25 ASTM standard included in a regulation And so I 18:27:47 18:27:48 Q. In other words, what were the payments for 18:27:48 18 ASTM to do? 18:25:09 19 MR. FEE: Same objection, plus form. 20 18:27:50 THE WITNESS: I can think of -- that we would 18:27:52 21 sell standards to federal agencies. That would be one 18:25:13 22 our committees would have to follow They would have 23 to -- the executive committee of a committee would MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 18:25:08 18:25:11 THE WITNESS: It's -- there's a process that 18:27:37 18:27:41 18:27:46 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:25:01 18:25:06 19 Beyond the scope of his designation Calls for 21 12 18:27:31 18:27:32 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:24:55 18:27:27 18:27:29 14 years? MR FEE: Objection Lack of foundation 20 speculation 18:27:25 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, none of it 10 was. 18:24:59 Q Do you have an estimate as to the number of 18:27:22 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 9 18:24:54 18:27:17 5 federal government in order to facilitate the 8 Vague. 18:24:57 15 BY MR BRIDGES: 18:27:17 Q. Were some of that money provided by the 7 18:27:04 18:27:11 6 standards development process? 18:24:50 18:24:55 Q Do you recall a particular -- any instance? 14 time 18:24:43 18:24:52 10 BY MR BRIDGES: 16 4 18:24:47 THE WITNESS: It's possible that we have 2 last five years from the federal government. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:24:35 18:24:43 MR FEE: Objection Beyond the scope of his 8 designation 11 18:24:31 Q Has ASTM ever asked an agency to use specific 6 language in a regulation? 1 anywhere from $650,000 to $900,000 per year over the 18:24:27 2 process encompassed in ASTM standards development Page 264 18:25:17 22 source of revenue. 18:28:00 23 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:25:19 18:28:01 24 18:25:28 Q. What other sources of revenue? 25 18:25:24 A. I believe that we have a number of federal Page 263 18:27:53 18:27:56 18:28:01 18:28:03 Page 265 67 (Pages 262 - 265) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 employees that participate in ASTM as full voting 18:28:06 2 members. So they would pay a $75-per-year fee to be a 3 member of ASTM. 4 18:28:14 Q. And you're counting that in the figures that 5 you gave me earlier? 18:28:16 A. Yes. 7 1 or edits to any version of ASTM standards where the 18:31:13 2 current ASTM standards have been incorporated by 18:31:25 3 reference? 18:28:18 6 4 18:31:33 MR FEE: Objection It's beyond the scope 5 of his designation Compound Vague Q. What other sources of funds from the federal 18:28:19 6 18:31:34 18:31:35 THE WITNESS: Because of the openness and 18:31:45 18:28:20 A. Right. That's all I'm aware of. That's all 7 transparency and iterative innovative process that 18:28:23 8 government have there been for ASTM? 9 18:28:09 8 ASTM encapsulates, I wouldn't know how to answer that 18:28:27 10 I'm aware of. We also have certification and training 9 question, give you a number 18:28:33 11 programs, which I don't believe the federal government 12 is too involved in, but we receive a small stipend 18:28:41 18:28:44 13 from the U.S. Department of Agriculture to assist them 14 in running a -- the U.S. bio preferred program. 18:28:49 18:28:53 18:29:00 10 18:31:49 18:31:56 MR BRIDGES: There's one more exhibit I want 11 to find 18:32:08 18:32:10 12 (Deposition Exhibit 1072 was marked for 18:32:35 13 identification ) 14 MR BRIDGES: Mr Grove, I've handed you 18:32:35 15 Q. Anything else? 16 A. We run a proficiency testing program, which 18:29:06 16 Q What is this document? 17 the U.S. Department of Defense participates in. So 18:29:08 17 A It appears as if this is the ASTM form and 15 Exhibit 1072 18:32:35 18:32:37 18:32:39 18 it's not related to standards, but it's another source 18:29:14 18:29:18 19 18:32:53 18 style book for how ASTM standards are displayed 19 of revenue from the federal government. 20 Q. Does ASTM have any means of identifying who 21 the originator was of any particular language in its 22 standards? 23 18:29:33 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Compound. To 25 object on that basis. 21 process of ASTM standards? 18:33:07 18:29:34 18:29:43 18:29:46 18:33:15 18:33:18 22 24 the extent it calls for a legal conclusion, I'd also 18:32:57 Q Does that create standards that persons must 18:29:22 20 follow in participating in the drafting and revision 18:29:26 MR FEE: Objection Vague Compound 23 THE WITNESS: No 18:33:22 18:33:31 24 BY MR BRIDGES: 25 18:31:53 18:33:34 Q Does that provide rules that persons must 18:33:34 Page 266 1 follow in participating in the drafting and revision 1 Go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: To the extent those are legal 18:29:47 7 18:30:02 8 18:30:06 Q. Is there any -- strike that. 18:30:06 How many individuals provide language or 18:30:11 9 edits to the ASTM standards that have been 10 incorporated by reference? 18:30:19 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Compound. 12 THE WITNESS: That would be very difficult to 15 reference? 18:30:37 18:30:39 14 standards that have already been incorporated by 18:30:41 Q. Yes. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 18 minutes left. MR. BRIDGES: 18 minutes left. 8 (Deposition Exhibit 1073 was marked for 9 identification.) A. Presumably, if those standards are being 18:34:06 18:34:10 18:34:13 18:35:00 18:35:00 18:35:00 11 Q. Mr. Grove, do you recognize Exhibit 1073? 12 A. I do. Q. Does it represent the views of both ASTM and 14 ANSI? 17 18:30:44 18:30:47 19 revised by ASTM or re-approved for use, it will have 18:33:44 18:35:00 18:35:13 18:30:49 MR. FEE: Objection. Compound. Calls for 18:35:23 18:35:25 THE WITNESS: I believe this is an error. 18:35:30 18 No. I'm not familiar why this page would be stapled 19 to a presentation. This is a speaker that came before 20 to go through a technical committee. It has to. 18:30:55 20 me on a panel followed by -- who probably didn't 21 That's the process for re-approving or revising 18:30:58 21 provide a written presentation, which happens to be 22 standards at ASTM. So it would depend on how many 23 people are on that committee and what percentage 24 voted. 25 23 page on a presentation that I gave. 18:31:11 25 Page 267 18:35:44 18:35:47 18:35:51 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:31:07 Q. How many individuals have provided language 18:35:32 18:35:36 18:35:39 18:31:01 22 stapled to a presentation which begins with the title 18:31:05 18:35:16 18:35:20 16 speculation. Beyond the scope of his designation. 18:30:44 17 MR. BRIDGES: Where are we on time? 15 18:30:43 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:33:42 THE WITNESS: Generally, yes. 13 18:30:25 13 calculate. I need to ask are you referring to MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 4 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:30:24 11 3 7 18:29:56 18:33:40 6 18:29:52 4 process. I'm not aware of a way to trace origins back 6 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:33:38 2 process of ASTM standards? 5 18:29:51 3 terms, I'm aware of an ASTM standards development 5 to a specific individual. Page 268 18:35:54 Q. Okay. So starting -- okay. So there's a 18:35:54 Page 269 68 (Pages 266 - 269) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 general workshop That's reflected on the first page 1 18:35:56 MR. BRIDGES: I will check, but if we don't 18:41:09 2 And then there's a listing of Scott Cooper Then 18:36:00 2 have them, we expect to get them. 3 there's your name, and then what follows in the 18:36:03 3 4 exhibit is a presentation solely by you and not by 18:36:03 4 was or what you understood to be the purpose of the 5 Mr Cooper; is that correct? 18:41:10 Q. Can you please explain to me what the purpose A That would be my recollection of events, yes 18:36:13 6 7 Q And then does that remaining portion starting 18:36:17 18:41:23 7 of the designation. Calls for speculation. 8 after your name reflect the views of ASTM at the time 9 of your presentation? 13 13 18:36:38 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1073 ) 16 THE WITNESS: Yes I believe this, to the 18 ASTM would have on this issue at the time of this (Deposition Exhibit 1074 was marked for 21 identification ) 18:42:09 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 21 18:42:11 18:42:13 THE WITNESS: So some of these activities may 18:42:16 22 be underway, but we don't believe that we are actively 18:38:01 23 pursuing all of them. 18:38:01 24 E-mails among you and Katherine Morgan, Len Morrissey 25 and John Pace; is that correct? 18:42:06 18:42:08 Q. Is the project underway? 20 designation. 18:38:01 Q Mr Grove, Exhibit 1074 is a series of MR. BRIDGES: Strike that. 19 18:38:01 22 BY MR BRIDGES: THE WITNESS: Project been approved? 18 18:37:07 18:37:09 18:41:59 18:42:03 17 18:37:05 18:41:47 18:41:58 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. Beyond the 16 18:37:01 17 best of my recollection, was the general views that 18:41:42 18:41:58 15 scope of his designation. 18:37:01 20 18:41:39 18:41:53 Q. Has the project been approved? 14 18:36:39 15 23 11 the items that are contained in the project. 18:36:26 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: You should read the whole thing if he's 19 presentation THE WITNESS: This represents a project that 9 ASTM staff is undertaking throughout the course of 18:36:29 14 asking you to verify all the use of ASTM 18:41:33 18:41:34 10 2015 and -- I'm sorry. 2014 and 2015. These would be 18:36:24 11 Beyond the scope of his designation Compound as 12 well MR. FEE: Objection. It's beyond the scope 8 18:36:20 18:36:22 MR FEE: Objection Calls for speculation 18:41:20 5 page with the Bates number ending in -3315? 18:36:11 6 10 18:41:16 18:38:07 18:42:21 24 BY MR. BRIDGES: 25 18:38:15 18:42:18 18:42:23 Q. Which ones is ASTM not actively pursuing? 18:42:26 Page 272 Page 270 1 2 A. Yes, it is. 1 18:38:26 MR. FEE: While I'm thinking of it, I'm going 3 to reserve the right to read and sign. 18:39:08 (Deposition Exhibit 1075 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 MR. BRIDGES: I'm handing you an exhibit 18:39:29 18:39:29 7 marked 1075 that consists of pages ASTM003314 to 9 18:40:02 Q. Do you recognize this document? 12 A. I do, yes. 18:40:02 13 Q. This is an E-mail from Maureen Houck to a A. It is correct. A. I believe it's short for the Information 18:40:32 Q. What does ITC -- sorry. "ITMC" mean? 17 18:40:37 18:40:39 18:40:45 18 Technology Management Committee. 20 Q. And -- 18:42:45 18:40:50 6 participating in ASTM technical committees and where. 7 We're trying to find out more about how federal 9 10 MR. FEE: I'm going to object. This appears 18:40:56 18:42:58 MR. FEE: Can you read the question back. 18:43:03 MR. BRIDGES: Not when he's in the middle of 18:43:10 18:43:12 MR. FEE: He's answering the wrong question. 13 MR. BRIDGES: Well, let him finish. 14 MR. FEE: Read the question back. MR. BRIDGES: No. No. 16 MR. FEE: Yes. 17 MR. BRIDGES: You stopped your witness from 18:43:19 18:43:21 18:43:21 MR. FEE: Wait until she reads the question 18:43:28 18:43:30 18:40:58 21 (Record read.) 22 18:41:01 22 THE WITNESS: It's really hard to say because 18:41:02 23 we're very early in the process of working on this, 23 mentioned that because I don't think we got the other 18:43:22 18:43:24 21 to be just one of many attachments to Exhibit 1075. MR. BRIDGES: You know, I'm glad you 18:43:14 18:43:16 18 speaking. That's ridiculous. That's improper. 20 back. 18:42:52 18:42:56 11 his answer, please. Afterwards, you can do that. 19 18:40:54 18:43:48 24 but I can tell you it's been scaled back. This is a 24 attachments, and I'd like to get them, please. 18:41:04 25 25 pretty ambitious activity. I believe the last two 18:41:06 Page 271 MR. FEE: I don't know if that's true or not. 18:42:50 15 18:40:29 14 number of senior staff at ASTM; is that correct? 16 18:42:40 4 full extent of government participation. So we're 12 18:40:22 15 18:42:38 8 agencies use ASTM standards. 18:40:02 11 19 18:39:31 18:39:37 (The witness reviewed Exhibit 1075.) 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:42:31 5 taking an inventory of how many government reps are 18:39:29 8 ASTM003315. THE WITNESS: Well, we're taking an 3 inventory. We don't have great information about the 18:39:12 4 MR. FEE: Same objection. 2 18:43:48 18:43:49 18:43:53 18:43:55 Page 273 69 (Pages 270 - 273) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 bullet points are things that we're not going to be 18:44:04 1 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 2 able to accomplish or pursue. 18:44:07 2 designation. 3 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:44:13 3 4 Q. What standards development activities -- 5 strike that. 6 18:44:13 18:44:16 What activities has ASTM had to scale back to 7 date as a consequence of the actions of the 8 defendants? 9 18:44:16 18:44:22 18:44:27 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of the 12 18:44:29 18:44:33 18:44:38 18:44:41 13 answer what specific activities we've scaled back. 15 18:44:43 18:44:46 Q. Have any activities been scaled back by ASTM 16 as a consequence of the actions of the defendants? 17 MR. FEE: Same objections. 18:44:46 18:44:49 Q. Of the defendant, I should say. 20 A. To the best of my knowledge, no. 21 18:44:52 22 process in any way because of the activities of 18:45:18 18:46:37 Q. How many times did Ms. Petre go to the Public 18:45:19 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 25 changes were made at the direction of counsel -- let 1 me think about that. Hold on one second. 18:46:43 18:45:33 16 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:46:49 Q. Do you know how many times ASTM or its agents 18:46:59 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:47:01 Q. -- for the purposes of this litigation? 18:47:01 MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for speculation. 18:47:05 18:47:07 1 that question, I instruct you not to disclose that. 18:45:33 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 18:45:38 5 18:47:17 18:47:20 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 changed at the direction of counsel because of 18:45:40 If there is something done because of 8 defendant, not at the direction of counsel, you can 9 answer that. 10 11 BY MR. BRIDGES: 12 18:45:44 18:45:46 18:45:47 18:45:56 Q. Have you gone to the Public Resource website 13 to find ASTM standards? 14 A. I have. 15 18:46:08 18:46:16 Q. Who is that? 22 A. That would be Sarah Petre, formerly of our 18:48:04 Q. It involves meetings at a restaurant called 18:48:04 18:48:06 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Where is it located in relation to ASTM's 18:48:08 18:48:08 18:48:12 18 A. About two blocks. 18:48:13 Q. What is the most frequent topic of discussion 21 18:46:17 18:47:59 18:48:01 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 20 at the Corner Bakery group meetings? 18:46:16 18:48:19 18:48:23 A. It would depend. It varies from month to 18:48:26 18:46:20 18:46:22 22 month. I wouldn't be able to give you an answer. 18:48:28 23 18:46:19 Q. How many times have you visited the Public 25 Resource website? 18:47:58 THE WITNESS: I don't know who created it. I 19 18:46:14 21 24 18:47:56 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 17 Washington office? 18:46:16 20 BY MR. BRIDGES: 23 staff. 18:46:11 18:46:13 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of at least one 19 person. Q. Did you create it? 10 18:47:55 14 the Corner Bakery Cafe; correct? MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 18 8 13 18:46:08 17 designation. Calls for speculation. 18:47:49 18:47:54 A. Yes, I have. 11 could have. I could have. 18:45:56 18:46:01 Q. Have other persons at ASTM? 16 Q. Have you ever participated in something 7 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of changes. 18:47:49 6 called the "Corner Bakery Group"? 18:45:43 18:47:09 Page 276 18:47:13 You could otherwise answer. 18:45:34 7 18:47:03 To the extent that work was done at the 2 18:46:49 18:46:53 MR. FEE: Objection. 4 you not to answer to the extent that activities were 6 activities of the defendant. 18:46:45 18:46:46 18:45:21 25 direction or by counsel, that would be responsive to Page 274 18:45:24 MR. FEE: I'm going to object and instruct 18:46:41 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to answer 15 that. I don't know. 24 18:46:38 18:46:41 13 designation. Calls for speculation. 22 18:46:33 18:46:35 23 Beyond the scope of his designation. MR. FEE: Objection. To the extent that 3 12 18:45:05 21 18:45:11 (Pause in proceedings.) 18:46:32 9 BY MR. BRIDGES: 10 19 18:44:59 2 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able to give you 18 have accessed Public Resource's website -- Q. Has ASTM changed its standards development 24 MR. FEE: Same objection. 7 17 18:44:52 19 23 defendant? 18:46:30 6 14 18:44:51 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:46:30 Q. More than five times? 11 Resource website? THE WITNESS: Yeah. I wouldn't be able to 14 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:46:26 8 a number. I would say less than five times. 10 designation. May call for expert testimony. Vague 11 and ambiguous. THE WITNESS: At least once. 4 BY MR. BRIDGES: 5 18:46:23 18:46:25 18:48:34 Q. What topics other than Public Resource are 24 most frequently discussed? 25 18:48:37 MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of foundation. Page 275 18:48:38 Page 277 70 (Pages 274 - 277) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 Misleading. 2 18:48:40 1 THE WITNESS: Funding for NIST, the National 18:48:42 3 Institute of Standards and Technology. I recall OFAC, 18:48:45 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm involved in a lot of 18:48:48 4 Steve -- I'm sorry Joe Tretler 5 standards with certain countries. Congress's interest 18:48:52 5 BY MR BRIDGES: 18:48:59 7 Washington representatives of standards organizations 18:49:06 8 to exchange information about what's happening in 9 Washington. 18:49:10 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 11 18:49:08 Q. Who participates in the Corner Bakery group? 12 MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. 13 Remember to give me a second. Go ahead. 14 THE WITNESS: I rarely participate. It's 18:49:17 18:49:18 18:49:21 15 mostly lower level. Each organization usually assigns 16 the lowest person in their Washington office to 17 attend. 18:49:23 18:49:26 18:49:29 18 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:51:21 6 Q Who is Steve Kramer? Do you know Mr Kramer? 7 A I do Steve Kramer was a member of the board 8 of directors for a period of three years from the 10 18:49:12 18:51:36 11 MR FEE: Objection 12 To the extent you had discussed litigation 16 18:51:50 19 20 A. Most often it was Sarah Petre. 18:49:34 20 Kramer? 21 Q. Who else from ASTM participated? 22 A. Well, I recall -MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I recall attending two or three 18:49:42 18:49:44 25 meetings in the last 15 months. And perhaps Anthony 3 18:49:52 7 A. I cannot recall any government employee 9 18:50:28 16 18:52:03 MR. FEE: Same instruction with respect to And, again, this is beyond the scope of his THE WITNESS: Yeah. I can't think of a 9 organization you mentioned. 18:50:34 18:52:24 A. Randy Jennings is a former member of the ASTM 18:52:24 14 MR. FEE: We're now at the seven-minute time 18:50:42 18:50:44 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Nods head.) MR. FEE: Last time you said you'd give 18:50:50 19 courtesy to you. 20 His name is Mark. He's in their Washington office. I 18:50:51 20 25 18:50:55 MR. FEE: Same objection. MR. BRIDGES: That's fine. Thank you very 21 much, Mr. Grove. 18:51:06 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 23 MR. FEE: I have no questions. Thane, do you have any questions? 25 18:51:04 MR. REHN: No questions. Page 279 18:52:50 18:52:52 24 18:51:02 18:52:40 18:52:43 22 18:51:02 Q. Who do you interact with most frequently at 18:52:35 18:52:38 18 ASHRAE two more questions. So I'll do the same THE WITNESS: I'm struggling with his name. 18:52:32 18:52:34 16 17 18:50:39 18:52:27 18:52:32 15 limit; right? 18:50:36 21 don't have a lot of interaction with him at all. 18:52:17 Q. Who is Randy Jennings? MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope. 24 ANSI? 18:52:13 18:52:14 18:52:21 10 BY MR. BRIDGES: 19 23 18:52:08 18:52:11 7 specific instance, but it's possible I've prepared 18 22 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:52:06 18:52:07 12 18:50:32 Q. Whom do you interact with most frequently at 17 ASHRAE? Q. In what context? 13 board of directors. A. I would say Megan Housewright in their 15 Washington office. Page 280 11 18:50:32 14 18:52:02 18:52:03 8 materials for the board that might have referenced the 18:50:26 18:50:31 Q. Him personally. 18:51:58 5 designation. 6 18:50:21 10 designation. Are you asking him personally or as 13 1 4 18:50:25 12 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:51:57 THE WITNESS: Yes, I might have 18:50:00 18:50:09 MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the scope of his 11 ASTM? 24 18:51:56 3 privileged communications. 18:50:07 Q. Whom do you most frequently interact with at 8 NFPA? This is also beyond the scope of his 18:49:58 Q. Are you aware of any government employees 6 attending. MR FEE: Same instruction 2 18:49:58 4 ever attending a meeting of the Corner Bakery group? 5 21 23 designation 18:51:53 18:51:56 18:49:49 25 BY MR BRIDGES: Page 278 1 Quinn from ASTM would attend some months. 2 BY MR. BRIDGES: 18:51:53 Q Have you discussed Public Resource with Steve 22 24 18:51:50 18:51:52 18 BY MR BRIDGES: 18:49:30 23 18:51:43 18:51:48 THE WITNESS: I have not discussed litigation Q. Who attends for ASTM? 18:49:39 18:51:41 14 you not to disclose that, but you can answer 19 18:49:42 18:51:37 18:51:40 13 with him at the request of counsel, I would instruct 15 otherwise 18:51:27 18:51:30 18:51:34 Q Have you discussed this litigation with him? 17 with Steve Kramer 18:49:30 18:51:15 18:51:18 9 University of Wisconsin 18:49:12 18:51:08 3 responsible for their global policy, which would be 4 the Treasury Department's restrictions on sharing 6 in energy and dependence. It's just a way for the 18:51:07 2 activities for ASTM that -- so my -- probably someone 18:52:54 18:53:00 18:53:02 18:53:03 Page 281 71 (Pages 278 - 281) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of the 2 deposition of Mr. Jeffrey Grove. We are off the 3 record at 18:52. 4 (Witness excused.) 5 18:53:06 18:53:08 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT 2 3 18:53:13 (Deposition concluded at 6:52 p.m.) 1 I, JEFFREY GROVE, do hereby certify that I 4 have read the foregoing pages, ________ to ________, 18:53:16 18:53:16 5 and that the same is a correct transcription of the 6 6 answers given by me to the questions therein 7 7 propounded, except for the corrections or changes in 8 8 form or substance, if any, noted in the attached 9 Errata Sheet. 9 10 10 11 11 _________________________________________________ 12 12 DATE 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 282 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 SIGNATURE Page 284 CERTIFICATE I do hereby certify that the aforesaid testimony was taken before me, pursuant to notice, at the time and place indicated; that said deponent was by me duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; that the testimony of said deponent was correctly recorded in machine shorthand by me and thereafter transcribed under my supervision with computer-aided transcription; that the deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness; and that I am neither of counsel nor kin to any party in said action, nor interested in the outcome thereof. <%signature%> 19 Nancy J. Martin, RMR, CSR 20 21 22 Dated: March 18, 2015 23 24 25 Page 283 72 (Pages 282 - 284) Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [& - 15:09] & & 3:4,12 4:3 6:13 13:19 0 001791 10:6 001815 9:21 003315 11:18 003489 7:12 01215 1:4 2:4 13:13 022620 178:23 022631 8:10 024219 6:11 025575 8:16 027188 8:23 029834 8:20 06 229:14 092009 10:23 097 200:1 097945 10:9 099360 238:13 099370 10:15 1 1 1:25 7:9,11,16,18 7:20,23 8:8,12,14 8:18 9:8 10:11,13 10:17,19 69:18 187:4 1,000 98:18 1,300 181:2 1,400 122:21 10 15:14 21:13 38:2 38:8 88:3 264:2 100368 6:21 101185 209:14 101186 9:10 101289 6:23 101779 7:6 102032 9:12 102044 9:14 102055 9:16 102076 7:14 1022 5:9 53:5,8 1023 5:11 56:25 57:3 1024 5:14 57:8,11 57:14 1025 5:16 57:21,24 58:6 1026 5:18 58:8,11 58:15 1027 5:20 61:20,22 61:24 62:18 1028 5:22 63:16,22 102897 8:6 1029 6:5 64:15,17 103 7:13 1030 6:7 65:16,18 66:2 90:6 103032 207:4 1031 6:10 67:7,9,14 68:14 1032 6:12 82:9,12 82:17 83:3 1033 6:15 83:8,10 83:14,17 1034 6:20 84:5,6,11 1035 6:22 84:13,15 84:19 1036 7:5 84:21,22 84:24 178:19 1037 7:8 86:3,6 1038 7:10 99:23 100:1,2 1039 7:13 103:9,10 104 7:15 1040 7:15 104:2,5,9 1041 7:17 128:10,13 128:16,18 1042 7:19 128:24 129:1,4,7 1043 7:21 132:12,16 132:17 133:7,12 1044 8:5 134:8,10 134:12,16 176:22 1045 8:7 137:13,16 1046 8:9 142:12,14 142:16 143:2 178:16,20,21 1047 8:11 193:19,22 193:25 194:2,6 1048 8:13 193:17 195:20,22,25 197:10,16 1049 8:15 199:8,11 1050 8:17 199:16,19 199:23 200:2,17 201:6 202:18 1051 8:19 203:1,4 1052 8:22 203:9,12 204:16,24 1053 9:5 205:14,20 1054 9:7 206:21,23 207:7,17 1055 9:9 208:6,9,13 1056 9:11 210:24 211:2,5 217:2 1057 9:13 220:15,18 220:21 1058 9:15 228:6,9 1059 9:17 229:15,18 1060 9:19 229:22,24 1061 10:5 230:10,13 230:14 1062 10:8 232:4,7 232:12 1063 10:10 233:2,5 1064 10:12 238:6,9 238:10,20,24 239:2 1065 10:14 239:1 240:7,9,11,15 1066 10:16 242:18 242:21 1067 10:18 243:3,7 243:9 1068 10:20 256:23 257:2 1069 10:22 257:5,8 1070 11:5 258:6,8 258:11 1071 11:7 258:13,16 258:18 1072 11:9 268:12,15 1073 11:12 269:8,11 270:15 1074 11:15 270:20 270:23 1075 11:17 271:4,7 271:9,21 10:17 46:11,12 10:26 46:13,15 11 7:12 58:23 101:4 101:5,8,9 1111 3:6 115 219:17 220:10 224:10 118 105:8 250:16 119 207:19 11:31 82:4,5 11:40 82:6,8 12 43:22 88:3 12,700 70:15 1201 2:18 1250 2:18 13:8 128 7:17,19 12:56 128:5,6 12th 3:16 13 8:17 11:13 122:21 13,000 70:2 132 7:21 134 8:5 137 8:7 13:59 128:9 14 5:3 140 98:17 142 8:9 14:06 130:13 15 11:14 14:19 43:23 278:25 15660 5:15 15667 5:17 15780 5:21 15830 5:23 15913 6:6 15:09 176:15 Page 1 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [15:43 - 875-2389] 15:43 190:3 15:44 190:7 16546 6:8 16:02 200:23 16:08 201:2 16:17 205:9 16:18 205:13 17 7:19 17:07 228:5 18 43:22 269:6,7 283:22 1850 90:5 18710 9:18 18:01 256:17 18:13 256:21 18:52 282:3 19299 6:18 193 8:11 195 8:13 19653 11:8 199 8:15,17 1993 22:17 1995 95:23 1:13 1:4 2:4 13:13 1:59 128:7 2 2 5:15,21 6:6,11,23 7:7 8:10,16,19,21 8:23 9:6,12,18,21 10:7,21 11:16,19 19:23 53:17,22 130:18,20 20 11:17 20,000 43:23 2000 22:17 20004 3:7 2001 22:22 2004 22:22 23:1 105:16 108:19 109:2 112:4 2005 109:3 2008 83:7 170:18,18 170:21 2009 24:20 108:14 2010 108:14 2010158 1:24 2011 10:12 31:7,8 36:14 44:18,25 64:13 86:16 109:25 112:4 135:22 137:3 2012 5:12 6:8,16 11:14 25:16 39:2 83:23 88:12 103:1 223:6 2013 6:17 7:19 8:14 8:17,19 48:10,18 83:24 102:21 143:22 177:24 180:1,20,22,25 181:23 182:4,13 183:4,12 187:4 2014 7:11 9:7 11:17 100:6 182:14 272:10 201404111.pdf. 207:13 2015 1:20 2:20 11:10 13:1,5 272:10 272:10 283:22 202 3:8 203 8:19,22 205 9:5 206 9:7 208 9:9 21 10:12 100:6 135:22 137:3 210 9:11 22 6:14 220 9:13 225 95:2 228 9:15 229 9:17,19 230 10:5 232 10:8 233 10:10 238 10:12 24 9:7 53:17,22 102:21 240 10:14 242 10:16 243 10:18 25 53:2,4 25,000 222:15 223:14 257 10:20,22 258 11:5,7 268 11:9 269 11:12 27 6:7 62:22 270 11:15 271 11:17 27th 4:6 284 1:25 2:04 130:9,10 2:06 130:11 2:58 228:1 3 3 5:23 6:19,21 9:14 9:16 10:9 19:23 53:17,22 30 1:15 2:15 53:2,4 30,000 181:16 30647 5:19 31 221:20 222:16,25 223:15 3315 272:5 35 53:3 350 186:24 3:09 176:16 3:26 176:17,19 3:43 190:4 3:44 190:5 4 4 1:20 2:20 5:19 9:10 10:23 11:6,8 13:1,5 415 3:18 4:8 43 5:13 4:02 200:24 4:08 200:25 4:17 205:10 4:18 205:11 4:58 228:2 5 5 7:14 8:6 10:15 19:23 101:4,8 217:3 217:6,6 50 126:18 512-4073 4:8 53 5:9 5400 11:16 555 3:15 56 5:11 560 4:5 57 5:14,16 58 5:18 5:07 228:3 6 6 1:15 2:15 101:5,9 61 5:20 63 5:22 64 6:5 65 6:7 650,000 265:1 67 6:10 6:01 256:18 6:13 256:19 6:52 282:5 7 7 5:17 8:13 217:3,6 217:6 71 74:8 739-5353 3:8 75 266:2 8 8 5:10 15:14 80 11:11 225:12 8124 74:8 82 6:12 83 6:15 84 6:20,22 7:5 86 7:8 875-2389 3:18 Page 2 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [88,500 - agency's] 88,500 149:12,16 885 122:7,15,23 9 9 6:9 83:7 90 225:11,13,20 900,000 265:1 94104 3:17 94105 4:7 9504 1:23 2:20 95372 10:21 98311 9:6 99 7:10 990 57:5,9 9:20 2:19 13:1,6 9:26 18:2,3 9:37 18:4,6 a a.m. 2:19 13:1 18:3 18:4 46:12,13,15 82:5,6 a119 95:24 aashto 102:14,14 ability 105:5 175:18 218:2 219:22 248:13 249:18 250:15 251:1 able 27:22 39:1 41:11 55:15 71:2 73:5 74:25 79:23 83:6 89:22 101:11 101:14 108:12 109:1,23 122:25 136:8 143:23 144:19 146:1 147:24 148:18 153:14,16 155:18 164:22 172:17 173:22 182:25 193:3 274:2,12 276:7,14 277:22 abridges 3:19 absolutely 172:5 abstracts 110:14 212:5,6 academic 107:16 academies 34:25 acceptance 237:13 access 105:3 106:8 107:8,15,20 108:8 108:17 110:17 111:4,10,21 112:9 112:13 113:2 115:25 116:9,24 118:3,23 120:1,17 120:22 121:5,11 166:4 167:13 180:16 183:16 184:21,23 202:1,6 208:24 210:14 213:1,14,18,24 214:5 215:1,17 216:4,9,16 217:25 219:10,24 221:21 223:9,25 226:3 227:8 230:2 246:21 246:25 247:10,18 247:25 248:11 249:2,15 250:7,23 accessed 276:18 accesses 149:12,21 accessing 169:1 accolades 185:24 218:7 264:18 accomplish 274:2 accomplishments 6:16 83:22,24 accord 20:11 accredited 253:16 255:21 accurate 209:21 accurately 42:15 accusing 76:14 acknowledge 216:3 acknowledgment 284:1 acronym 129:25 act 95:23 126:2 135:17 145:9 160:4 acting 55:17 245:19 action 79:15 124:19 283:14 actions 45:7 49:24 55:7 99:7 108:7 153:19 154:3,20 155:2,9 274:7,16 active 34:7 actively 272:22,25 activities 27:15 29:15 58:1 70:1 96:2 118:6 144:23 147:8,20 149:7 165:7,14 196:17 197:16 272:21 274:4,6,13,15,22 275:4,6 280:2 activity 29:1,11 30:6 31:10 44:13 45:10 273:25 acts 135:13 261:4 actual 55:7 220:3 acus 64:6,8,12 88:9 88:11,19 105:20,21 121:3 209:15 add 117:3 118:14,15 120:13 123:4,11 207:3 210:3 238:11 added 122:14 123:9 207:6 addition 15:7 52:24 60:21 77:22 211:23 212:1,8,11 214:7 additional 50:2 150:2 152:16 207:3 214:8 address 113:23 114:5,6,23 115:2,3 115:13,19,23 169:2 213:19 214:3,7 215:2 addressee 207:1 addressees 137:21 204:17,25 addressing 108:25 administration 22:13 38:9,10 50:1 184:1 administrative 64:9 86:17 136:22 209:6 adopt 53:19 118:8 adopted 70:22,24 71:21,24 72:2,9,11 72:11 adoption 237:16 advancement 95:23 advantage 264:14 advice 33:9 advise 76:3 advisory 24:8 advocacy 34:21 affairs 21:17,19 29:10 30:4 32:8,16 42:13,18 43:7,8 44:11 59:3,12 61:16 90:13,16 affect 97:23 220:5 affordable 210:13 aforesaid 283:2 afraid 219:7 224:15 226:5 249:25 agencies 35:22 38:4 93:15 94:3,16 95:1 95:6,14,25 96:8 97:2,8 109:10 112:13 121:13 124:1 125:13,14 183:19,21,22,23 235:8 261:7,8,9 264:19 265:21 273:8 agency 67:12 78:25 79:2,15 96:13 113:3 114:16 122:16 123:5,6 124:3 125:2 206:6 233:25 235:7 261:3 262:1 263:5 agency's 96:3 97:21 98:19 Page 3 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [agenda - apart] agenda 65:15 93:13 95:5,8,9,10 agendas 94:25 agents 276:17 ago 20:21 26:5 33:20 100:18 155:20,25 156:8,12 156:18,21 177:21 190:16 agree 177:7 179:1 215:4,16,19 216:2 216:21 230:2,24 257:17 agreed 211:11 226:24 agreeing 225:19 agreement 9:19 10:5 50:8,16 94:11 189:21 203:22 204:12 224:9 225:5 230:1,16,21,25 231:18 240:21 agreements 148:20 227:6 agriculture 266:13 ahead 19:14 42:7 76:8 77:4 78:23 81:14 113:24 115:5 115:6,21 117:4 123:25 137:10 149:25 151:4 154:12 156:5 158:1 168:17 174:13 178:7 179:17 190:11 192:17 193:16 248:6 260:11 267:1 278:13 aided 283:10 air 1:7 2:7 70:9 97:15 al 13:10 align 151:18 157:16 alleged 196:16 197:7,15 allow 106:8 148:20 224:9 245:9 allowed 222:22 allowing 223:8 allows 210:14 250:17 ambiguous 139:3 249:5 250:10 251:4 256:4,13 274:11 ambitious 273:25 amended 5:9 53:9 america 34:16 american 1:3,6,15 2:3,6,15 13:9 24:16 35:9 48:20 52:2,19 91:7 102:12 111:8 132:8 186:20 amount 108:3 153:17 154:2,19 analysis 59:19 143:23 157:9,9 196:18 andrew 3:13 13:18 173:8 announced 182:3 186:25 187:14 announcement 181:24 182:1 announcements 181:3,6,10 182:9,11 184:7,14 185:16 announcing 179:19 annual 16:3 17:1 18:9 182:4,13 annually 220:25 221:12 222:8 ansi 48:19 52:15 88:13,14,20 89:1,8 89:11,12,14,21 241:15 253:15 269:14 279:24 answer 12:3 24:5 25:17 27:1,22 34:4 39:20 41:11 45:3,24 46:4 47:15,17 49:18 51:22 53:15 54:10 54:13 55:15 56:6,15 57:7 58:4 62:9,9 71:18 76:11,18,20 77:4 78:23 80:3 93:24 94:22 95:19 96:13 97:12 98:24 107:23 108:16 109:4,15 112:8 114:2,6,20 116:3 118:2,4,10,20,22 119:3,7,12,17 120:3 120:7 122:25 130:15 131:1,2,25 132:1,6 133:5 134:20 135:25 136:2,10 137:6,9,10 137:11 140:1 141:12,25 144:13 144:19 150:11 153:14,16 154:7,12 154:15 172:4,17 173:19,22 174:13 174:13 177:8 178:6 185:11 186:8 187:18,19 188:4,13 188:25 190:12 191:6 192:17 193:22 194:4 195:6 195:7 196:11 197:22 198:24 199:1 203:16 204:1 204:11,19 212:23 215:11 220:14 221:10,14,15 222:11 224:15 231:24 233:21 236:4,6,8 240:25 241:7,8 245:16 246:1 247:7 248:17 248:22 249:8,13 250:3,14 251:14,17 253:4 254:9 255:2,9 260:8,24 261:17 264:10 268:8 273:11 274:13 275:4,9 276:14 277:2,22 280:14 answered 29:13 41:22 44:3 51:9 52:9 54:24 66:17 71:13 72:5 74:15 77:17,19 78:7 80:1 106:2 116:25 117:2 118:7,25 119:4,8,13 119:20 120:12 146:8 147:9 149:23 155:3,21 158:22 159:1 165:20 166:7 166:15 175:15,17 176:4 185:8 186:15 215:24 222:10 225:18 226:5,8,14 236:11,15,23 248:4 248:23 249:10 251:19 261:22 answering 76:12 78:14 122:5 188:23 199:2 273:12 answers 226:11 246:19 284:6 anthony 60:14,15 64:4 90:8 233:6 278:25 anticipate 94:15 115:7 anticipating 201:25 202:5 anticipation 136:5 137:8 anybody 33:6,16 43:13 80:6 129:16 147:12 153:1 anyway 191:14 apart 18:9,12 38:13 50:6 88:18 101:19 140:19 149:21 167:15 184:8,16 185:16 214:19 215:1 241:20 Page 4 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [apco - astm] apco 26:16,23 27:5 27:16,20 28:23 29:24 36:3 42:22 43:19,21 44:1 64:24 65:11 109:24 110:3 183:10 200:10 201:10,14 239:17 239:24 apec 24:23 apologies 65:4 apologize 144:20 appear 62:18,22 136:17 218:11 228:10 appearances 3:1 4:1 appeared 104:1 appearing 158:2 appears 57:9,17 58:7 64:19,22 65:5 65:14,20 66:3 67:5 67:10 103:25 131:19 136:15 194:14 196:1 203:6 230:5,15 239:21 257:4 259:22 268:17 271:20 applications 55:18 56:3 applied 77:12 apply 129:25 231:5 231:11,18 appointed 24:6 appreciate 205:7 241:16 approach 116:16 appropriate 119:3 120:4 127:15 176:10 210:19 246:5 249:14 256:9 approved 267:19 272:13,16 approving 267:21 approximately 62:24 102:21 111:24 april 6:7 9:7 architectural 134:6 archive 149:22 152:22 archives 50:1 106:19 183:25 area 98:12 125:16 175:5 219:8 areas 79:2,16 97:19 argue 116:8,23 117:1 arguing 47:14 argument 216:6 243:25 arlington 89:5 arose 31:6 110:4 art 72:6,18 article 103:21 133:22 185:4 255:12 articles 17:4,6 artistry 169:3 ascribed 209:7 ashrae 279:17 281:18 asia 24:22 asked 29:13 33:9 36:24 37:3,10 41:22 44:2 48:14 51:9,11 51:14 52:9,23 54:24 66:17 69:4 71:13 72:5 74:15 77:17 80:1 83:22 106:2 116:25 117:14 118:7,25 120:12 129:22 146:8 147:9 149:23 155:3,21 158:22 159:1 165:19 166:7,15 175:15,20 176:4 185:8 186:15 191:14 192:5 198:9 215:24 222:10 225:18 226:8,14 236:10,15,22 241:14 248:4,23 249:10 251:18 260:18 261:21,25 263:5 asking 16:7 23:21 37:6 42:21 47:4,5 54:9 55:6,7 59:17 75:8 93:20 96:9 114:23 118:11 131:14 135:16 141:14 149:4 153:4 173:4,14 174:4,17 175:7,8,8,20,21 184:23 188:14 190:17,21 212:17 212:19 221:8 222:6 225:4 236:8 241:20 248:21 253:2 257:16 270:14 279:10 asks 124:3 asma 240:20 asme 25:15,22 27:4 27:7,20 28:14,16 32:21 36:25 65:10 65:20 66:1,4,8 135:14 240:20 241:12,21 242:1 aspect 247:14 asserted 131:19 assign 55:8 assignment 54:12 assigns 278:15 assist 32:16 266:13 assistance 124:10 assistant 80:16,17 85:20 207:24 associate 60:6 85:7 85:20,24 103:18 192:8 associated 105:20 251:12 associates 90:22 association 1:5 2:5 22:23 23:17 34:9 52:19 89:4 102:12 111:8 192:14,17 assume 21:5 92:10 94:23 99:19 108:13 146:25 147:3 149:15 225:8,16 assumed 99:18 astm 1:4 2:4 4:14 5:16 6:12 7:5,10 9:19 10:5 11:9 13:23,24 14:13,24 15:2 16:4 19:7,12 19:22 21:12,23 22:1 22:5,14,15 23:1,10 23:23 25:14,21 26:11 27:5,7,19 32:21 33:6,16 36:25 38:23 39:4,8,13,21 40:1,3 41:14 43:12 43:13,16,19,25 44:7 44:16,24 45:14,21 46:19,21 47:24 48:7 48:25 49:7 54:1,3,4 54:6,14 55:2,9,22 56:20 57:20,25 58:20,24,25 60:21 60:25 62:3,19,23 64:18 65:9,19 66:8 68:3,4 69:14 70:10 70:14 71:6,15,21 72:14,25 73:9,13,15 73:16,17 74:7,18 77:8,9,22 84:23 85:3,5 86:1 90:3 92:11 93:22 94:13 95:2 96:8 97:4,8,18 98:2,23 99:5 100:9 101:19 102:14 103:18 105:3,11 106:4,14,17,20,23 107:4,10 109:14 110:15 111:2 112:7 112:13,20 113:1,5,8 113:19,22 114:4,8,9 114:17,17 115:19 Page 5 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [astm - attaching] 116:8,17,23 117:7 117:22 118:2,16,23 120:1,16,25 121:10 122:2,7,13,15,17,21 123:8,9,18,23,25 124:7,10,12,17,24 125:7,24 126:4,8,10 127:2 128:22 129:16 130:1 131:4 131:22 132:21,22 135:7,18,22 138:11 138:23 139:20 141:2,3,10,15 142:7 143:1 144:8,22 145:11,12,24 146:4 146:6,17,23 147:7 147:19 148:17,25 149:6,17,20 150:5,5 150:15,18 151:10 151:25 152:14,19 153:1,18,25 154:1 154:18,25 155:1,7 155:15,16 156:16 156:17,25 158:14 160:1,3,11 161:6,10 161:16,20 162:1,12 162:17,22 163:3,13 163:14,18,23 164:4 164:10,15,18 165:16,17 166:4 167:14,16,22,24 168:7,9,11,11,13,20 168:24 169:7,25 170:8,8,14,20,21 171:10,13 172:9,10 172:14,20,22,24 173:1,1,2,25 174:1 174:2,6,19,20,21 175:10,11,14 176:1 176:2,3 178:18,22 179:21,25 180:6,14 180:24 181:2,3,10 181:24 182:4,6,7,9 182:13,18 183:3 184:15,17 185:17 186:19 187:3,9,15 187:22 189:2,20 190:25 191:14 192:5 196:4,5,17,24 197:5,13,17,25 198:1 200:9 202:8 203:5,21 205:25 207:19 208:19,23 208:24 209:5,16 210:7,10 213:12 215:7 216:17,21 218:21 219:5,9,16 219:24 220:3 221:21 222:15,23 222:25 224:8,16,21 224:25 225:5,8,16 226:19 227:6,13,15 228:15 229:19 230:2,21,24 231:5 231:12 232:13 235:2,12,16,16,17 235:25 236:14,16 236:19 237:2,13,16 237:19 238:23 239:23 240:5,21 241:3,21 246:13,25 247:9,18 248:3,9,13 249:4,25 250:3,4,22 250:24,25 251:16 252:22 254:2 255:23,25 256:8,23 256:24 257:9,11,21 258:2,21,22,24 259:7,20,24 260:18 260:19,21 261:18 261:19,25 262:10 262:15,17,17,19,21 263:2,5,25 264:3,14 264:22 265:13,18 266:1,3,8,20 267:3 267:9,19,22 268:1,2 268:8,17,18,21 269:2,13 270:8,14 270:18 271:14 272:9,25 273:6,8 274:6,15,21 275:13 275:15 276:17 278:19,21 279:1,11 280:2 281:12 astm's 17:7,8 18:21 19:3 57:4 60:2 67:11 69:4,5,11,21 69:23 70:1,11 87:10 90:7 96:24 102:18 102:22 104:21 106:10 112:11 115:12 122:11 127:21 135:2 138:8 144:4 151:20,21 160:23 162:9 164:25 165:6,12 167:7,24 168:25 171:9,12 179:21 180:15 183:5 187:15 194:18 209:21 216:3 225:11,12 230:19 247:24 248:1 249:1 249:2 250:6,7 251:23 256:25 277:16 astm001788 10:6 astm001814 9:20 astm003314 11:18 271:7 astm003315 271:8 astm003479 7:11 astm005399 11:15 astm0095371 10:20 astm015162 10:18 astm015659 5:14 astm015661 5:17 astm015779 5:20 astm015828 5:22 astm015912 6:5 astm016538 6:8 astm018709 9:17 astm019297 6:18 astm019650 11:7 astm022627 8:7 astm022630 8:9 astm023336 8:14 astm024218 6:10 astm0255574 8:15 astm027093 8:18 200:1 astm027187 8:22 astm02893 8:5 astm029833 8:20 astm030644 5:18 astm030712 194:10 astm092006 10:22 astm095373 11:5 astm097943 10:8 astm097980 10:10 astm098310 9:5 astm099269 10:13 238:9,12 astm099335 238:9 astm099366 10:14 astm099834 10:16 astm100366 6:20 astm101183 9:9 astm101288 6:22 astm101778 7:6 astm101800 7:8 astm102031 9:11 astm102042 9:13 astm102053 9:15 astm102072 7:13 astm102089 7:15 astm102094 7:17 astm102361 7:20 130:17 astm102388 7:23 astm103024 9:8 astm103025 207:4 astm95376 11:6 atm030712 8:11 attach 20:1 attached 200:6,7 284:8 attaching 199:24 Page 6 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [attachment - beginning] attachment 207:7 207:11 239:9 attachments 207:9 207:10,18 239:5,9 239:15 271:21,24 attempt 161:4 attempted 124:24 attend 89:20 278:17 279:1 attendees 93:13 attending 13:16 278:24 279:4,6 attends 278:19 attention 30:7 111:11 125:7 160:12 176:21 194:25 attorney 14:22 16:16 33:8,11 59:2 59:7,8,11 71:1 78:5 80:9 95:21 130:3 135:7,13,13 137:8 140:16 170:24 198:18,22,22 215:12 216:14 attorneys 13:15 14:14,17 15:13 18:13 attributes 29:10 69:5 audience 36:7,10 audiences 184:5 august 8:19 11:17 48:9 authentic 170:3 171:20 authenticity 171:25 172:3 178:18 179:1 author 84:8 134:1 authorizes 230:25 authors 211:3 automatic 213:23 availability 181:11 181:25 182:10 184:15 185:18 186:20 187:14 available 16:3 40:18 45:18,25 46:3 108:2 111:19 112:14,20 113:9 114:18 120:16,25 121:7,16 122:11,21,24 144:6 144:8 148:17 150:5 171:11,13 175:9 180:16 214:6 219:9 230:6 245:8,9 246:15 250:20,22 251:16 252:14 avenue 3:6 avenues 246:15 avoided 118:4 awards 187:10 aware 22:1 25:8 26:7,12,15,17,18,22 28:24 33:9 39:18 44:12 63:4,12 73:12 73:21,23 77:9,25 78:1 96:14 107:13 108:7 117:7 123:6 124:17 125:2,3,15 126:10 127:1,6,8,9 127:24 139:7,16,18 143:22 145:7 146:14 150:15,18 155:5,7,15 161:20 161:21 162:9,22 163:3,20 165:16 167:7,11,16,16 175:10,22,25 177:25 178:6,11,14 179:22 188:3 191:21 196:6,12,16 196:18,24 197:2,5 197:13,25 199:4 202:9 204:2 214:13 216:17,20 220:10 224:20,24 227:12 227:20 231:25 235:6 241:3 245:23 252:13,19,22 253:6 253:9,14,21 254:2 259:9 260:13 261:14 266:9,10 267:3,4 275:10,18 279:3 awareness 25:2 26:23 29:5 33:22 36:23 39:12 241:6,8 245:22 b b 1:4,15 2:4,15 4:13 5:6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 61:19,19 back 18:5 25:16 46:14 79:10 82:7 94:18 105:15 108:18 109:2 114:20 120:18 127:10,19 128:8 130:12,16 136:14 150:25 159:22 176:18,21 178:1,15 190:6,8 193:13,14 201:1,3 203:14 205:12 228:4 234:24 254:12,21 255:2,5 256:20 260:2 267:4 273:9 273:14,20,24 274:6 274:13,15 background 106:13 106:16,19,22 107:3 107:8 backwards 81:4,9 81:11 bad 118:21 245:13 bakery 277:6,14,20 278:11 279:4 balance 92:13 105:2 105:13 106:8 110:10,16 185:23 212:25 247:9 balanced 219:19 band 176:23 barrier 113:18 barriers 40:16 50:15 94:10 110:20 237:13 250:18 based 54:10 76:2 77:1 101:17 108:20 123:14 132:5 134:7 139:24 141:8 143:23 145:7 148:8 148:13 151:14 153:7 157:9 165:21 169:19 174:10,12 174:14,25 192:19 200:6 220:6 237:12 244:12 245:18,22 251:20 254:16 255:21,22 baseline 122:14 basic 231:8 basis 15:21 40:19 75:13 96:21 123:21 143:25 144:16 153:11 173:6,16 174:8 182:21 192:17 210:7 226:3 244:8 252:15 266:25 bates 178:22 194:8 194:12 209:13 272:5 battery 32:9 205:5 bcc'd 63:8 becker 3:14 13:19 17:18 becoming 39:18 159:16 beefing 212:4 began 105:14 108:22 109:17,18 109:24 110:5,6,14 113:20,20 114:2 115:18 beginning 84:1 121:4,4 146:17 Page 7 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [begins - bridges] begins 269:22 begun 105:12 behalf 13:23 96:8 112:7 196:24 197:5 197:13,25 253:2 belgium 61:16 102:2 belief 246:24 believe 27:23 28:18 29:3,7 30:1,2 31:7 32:7,9,14,21 34:5 35:4,24 36:15 37:8 38:1 39:2,7 40:10 41:3 42:21 43:21,23 49:19,25 51:15 53:22 63:9,9 64:8 66:24 67:24 69:9,25 77:19 83:21 87:24 89:7 91:5,6,19 94:7 94:12 96:8,12 97:13 98:21 100:7,10 101:23 102:8 103:6 104:20 105:19 109:2 110:5 111:7,9 112:23 115:7 117:21 119:4,13 121:2 122:7,20 123:3 124:21 138:19 141:2 142:19 148:16 149:6 156:21 161:3 175:17 179:19 180:10,11 181:1,6 181:16 182:3,12 183:3,10 184:3 185:23 195:2 198:21 200:7 202:15 205:23 206:3 213:22 215:13 216:15 218:22 219:2 220:4 222:15 226:16 230:8 233:22 234:7 235:19 236:16 237:23 241:13 243:21 244:12,19 244:25 245:7,17 246:12,23 253:16 254:15 255:23,25 259:16 262:5 264:1 264:25 265:25 266:11 269:17 270:16 271:17 272:22 273:25 belong 89:19 belongs 23:23 beneficial 92:8 benefit 114:12 210:12 benefits 29:5 33:23 40:13 best 29:8 39:24 42:3 92:10 98:24 141:3 155:20 175:18 185:10 187:4 203:8 219:12 230:9 244:19 245:17 247:9 270:17 274:20 bet 159:24 better 69:25 110:12 117:19 beyond 29:7 33:24 42:6 54:8 55:14,20 56:13,23 59:5 63:2 65:25 67:4 79:25 94:21 96:19 97:11 99:5,16 103:5,23 107:21 108:10 111:22 112:6 132:25 135:10 140:21 141:23 142:19 147:5 156:3 157:5,24 158:11,17 159:8 160:7,25 161:12,18 163:25 164:6,20 165:3 174:7 182:1,10 185:17 186:6 187:6 187:16 188:4 192:12 196:20 197:20 198:4 201:11,17,23 202:11,19 206:13 208:4 209:24 210:21 211:17 212:21 215:9 218:9 219:15,20 220:8 224:3 228:19 229:8 237:4,9,21 241:23 242:7 243:16 244:3 244:10 245:14,24 246:10 247:4 250:1 250:11,12 252:17 252:25 253:12,25 254:6,20 256:2,11 257:13 260:5,22 262:3,22 263:7,19 268:4 269:16 270:11 272:6,14,19 274:9 275:16 276:1 276:12,23 279:9,18 280:22 281:4 big 220:25 221:12 222:8 billings 43:23 bio 266:14 biofuel 124:24 bit 86:24 87:6 123:4 179:8 218:25 blacked 134:15,24 bland 117:9 blocks 277:18 blush 136:16 board 35:2 67:25 68:2,3,25 69:4,10 138:3,8,10 180:8 206:4 248:10 280:7 281:8,13 bob 219:3,4 bockius 3:4 bodies 97:3 246:17 body 138:20,25 boeing 62:6 book 268:18 bosses 81:19 bots 213:23 bottles 70:7 bottom 86:10 134:5 195:3 208:16 209:13 box 100:15,22 101:1 101:2 branch 35:20 brand 69:4,7,12,18 branding 68:25 69:2 breadth 235:16 break 17:13,20 76:10 78:8,11,13 82:1 127:14,17 128:1 136:10 141:19 176:11 189:25 190:16 205:3 209:19 227:21 256:15 breaks 205:6 breathe 97:15 breathing 70:9 bremer 86:14,16 90:23 93:6 102:23 103:1,3 136:21 241:12,22 242:2,6 242:14 brian 68:16,24 bridge 17:22,23 bridges 3:13 5:3 13:18,18 14:8 16:5 16:9,14,24 17:12,17 17:21 18:7 19:10,18 20:5,10,19,25 21:7 21:9,11 22:3,8,20 23:9,16,25 24:4 25:10,20 26:2,14,25 27:13 28:1,7 29:16 30:5,10,16,24 31:4 31:18,22 32:1,11,18 32:23 33:2,10,19 34:10 36:9,18 37:2 37:16,23 38:11,15 38:22 39:3,11,19,25 Page 8 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [bridges - business] 40:20 41:1,12,20,23 42:2,9,17,23 43:6 43:18 44:5,14,21,23 45:13,19 46:2,9,16 47:2,9,18 48:16 49:6,13 50:18,23 51:5,13 52:11,21 53:7,18,25 54:9,16 54:21 55:5,11,16,25 56:10,18 57:2,13,23 58:10,19 59:9,16,22 61:9,17,22 62:2,16 63:5,18,25 64:17 65:2,8,18 66:7,15 66:19 67:9,17 68:1 68:13,22 69:16 70:20 71:4,11,14,19 72:3,8,21 73:7 74:2 74:21 75:2,7,14 76:6,14,22 77:13,24 78:9,16 79:6,18,24 80:4,11,25 81:7,21 82:1,11,19 83:1,10 83:15,19 84:6,15,22 84:25 86:5 87:3,15 90:20 91:13,22 92:24 93:3 94:2 95:4,11 96:5,18,23 97:6,22 98:8,14,22 99:11,25 100:4 103:9,12,20 104:4,7 104:12 105:9 106:12 107:2,7,18 108:6,15 110:1 112:3,18 113:6 114:1 115:17 116:7 116:21 117:8 118:1 118:10,17,22 119:1 119:6,9,15,19,22,25 120:5,14,23 121:14 122:1,9 125:6,22 126:6,25 127:7 128:1,12,20 129:1,6 129:11,15 130:7,20 130:22 131:4,8,14 132:7,14,20 133:2,8 133:15,25 134:10 134:14,22 135:6,15 135:21 136:4,9,13 136:19 137:1,15 138:5,22 139:4,15 140:6,12,17,25 141:13,19,21 142:6 142:14,22 143:8,15 144:12,21 145:3,13 146:12 147:1,11,25 148:5,10,21 149:3 149:19 150:3,13 151:3 152:2,13,18 152:25 153:4,12,24 154:7,10,17,24 155:6,13,24 156:7 156:11,15,23 157:11 158:5,13,20 158:24 159:3,16,23 159:25 160:9,17,22 161:5,15,24 162:4 162:16,21 163:2,7 163:22 164:3,9,14 164:24 165:5,11,23 166:9,17 167:1,6,21 168:4,18 169:5,13 169:22 170:6,16 171:3,21 172:2,8,14 172:19 173:6,12,18 173:24 174:6,16 175:6,19,24 176:11 176:20 177:9,12 178:10,15,21 179:4 179:9,24 180:13,19 181:18 182:5 184:12,24 185:9,15 186:2,11,18 187:2 187:12,21 188:7,14 189:5,12,19 190:15 191:13,25 192:21 193:1,5,9,16,21 194:3,10,16 195:22 196:3,13,22 197:4,9 197:24 198:15,25 199:5,10,18,21,23 200:4,13,20 201:5 201:15,21 202:2,13 202:23 203:3,11,18 204:4,15,23 205:3 205:16,19 206:16 206:23 207:3,11,16 207:22 208:8,15 209:3,12 210:2,9 211:1,7,25 212:19 213:5,10 214:24 215:5,15 216:1,19 216:25 217:20 218:3,18 220:2,17 220:23 221:6,11,24 222:4,24 223:13,23 224:12,23 225:7,15 225:22 226:9,18 228:8,14,24 229:17 229:24 230:12,17 231:4,10,17 232:6 233:4,14,18 234:9 234:17 235:1,11 236:3,7,13,18 237:1 237:7,14 238:1,8,11 238:15,21 239:2,4 239:13,22 240:4,9 240:13,19 241:2,10 242:3,10,13,20 243:5,11,18 244:7 244:15 245:3,20 246:7,18 247:16 248:16,20,25 249:6 249:11,20,24 250:5 250:19 251:13,24 252:4,8,21 253:8,20 254:1,11,14,23 255:3,7 256:6,15,22 257:7,14,20,24 258:8,15,23 259:10 259:17,23 260:7,17 261:16,24 262:9,20 263:4,10,15 264:4 264:12,21 265:3,11 265:16,23 267:6,16 268:10,14,24 269:5 269:7,10,24 270:22 271:6,10,22 272:1 272:12,17,24 273:10,13,15,17 274:3,14,18 275:11 275:20 276:4,9,16 276:20 277:4,12 278:10,18 279:2,12 279:22 280:5,18,25 281:10,20 briefly 205:7 bring 94:24 125:7 bringing 112:10 162:10 broad 24:1 99:21 186:19 broadcast 181:9 broader 179:3 193:9 broadly 40:11 brodoff 64:21 135:1 135:13,17 broke 46:18 broken 232:21 brook 85:14 brooke 101:1 brookings 35:4 40:7 brought 30:6 117:21 brussels 61:15,16 102:2 buckeystown 102:15 bucks 220:25 221:12 222:8 budget 35:21 37:9 49:22 183:24 build 180:6 building 7:21 133:22 211:20 built 122:12 bullet 217:1 218:24 274:1 business 34:6 35:11 144:5 145:11 148:15 166:1 Page 9 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [business - characteristics] 167:17 176:8 182:4 182:6 251:23 255:12 buy 152:20,20 bypassed 162:15 c c 283:1,1 cafe 277:14 calculate 267:13 calendar 183:1 california 3:15,17 4:7 call 18:16 24:2 28:9 49:8 65:15 111:14 125:12 130:16 168:15 184:8,16 217:18 218:13 220:8 252:18 254:6 274:10 called 24:16 25:2 26:16,23 41:4,5 91:1 102:12 107:14 113:12 121:21 239:6,6 277:6,13 calls 25:6 26:10,20 28:3 30:14,20 31:13 31:24 32:13,20,25 33:7,17 36:4,20 37:20 38:19 40:8 42:11 43:14 44:20 45:1 52:16 54:7,11 54:23 55:13,19 56:4 56:22 59:4,14 62:7 63:1 65:12,24 66:13 67:3,23 68:10 70:18 70:23,24 71:7,8,23 71:24 73:2,20 74:24 76:1 78:19 79:13 80:7 93:17 94:20 97:10 98:16 99:2,15 103:4 104:23 112:2 112:5 129:8 132:10 132:24 134:17 135:9,10 136:24 137:5 138:1,18 139:2,13 140:9,15 140:20 141:6 142:10 143:3,11 144:2,18 147:21 148:2 149:1,9 150:21,22 153:3,20 154:4,21 155:4,10 155:22 157:6 158:10,18 159:9 160:6,11,24 161:11 161:19 163:19 164:19 165:2,8 168:1 169:9,18 170:23 172:12,15 173:16 175:16 176:5 187:7 197:20 198:5 202:10,20 206:12 208:3 209:24 210:21 215:8,10 216:11 217:17 219:14 224:3 225:3 227:19 231:7 234:14 240:16 241:24 242:16 243:15 247:3 250:2 251:5 252:16 253:1,11,24 254:5 256:3,12 257:12 260:6 262:23 263:19 265:7 266:24 269:15 270:10 272:7 275:17 276:13,22 campaign 183:10 canada 48:11 51:7 101:22 canadian 51:18,20 capabilities 29:10 capacity 23:22 62:3 62:10,13 87:10 180:8 187:18 capitol 81:20 107:14 116:20 caption 13:9 captured 149:17 169:4 card 93:6 career 109:12,13 carefully 58:3 234:6 carl 4:16 13:21 17:22 38:23 39:4,14 39:21 40:4 63:4,12 135:23 139:1 194:23 207:12 245:4 carl's 143:17 carli 32:3,4 135:1,17 199:24 201:8 202:24 238:25 239:5,15 carmel 188:9 189:7 190:19 193:24 194:15 195:1,14,18 carry 224:7 carrying 209:16 case 1:3 2:3 13:9,11 13:12 45:22 46:22 48:1 50:20 131:17 137:4 149:8 159:18 177:2 180:7 188:5 194:19 216:22 220:13 252:13,19 cassidy 85:17 catch 111:25 163:18 categories 265:12 category 35:12,14 caught 111:11,22 cause 160:20 167:24 168:5 250:25 caused 39:4 47:24 113:18 145:10,24 146:6 153:10 causes 94:16 148:17 192:8 260:1 causing 220:3 cement 102:16 cendrowska 100:25 ceo 184:22 certain 15:2 62:13 99:17 124:6 139:14 151:15 153:9,9 155:19,23 157:21 161:9 164:8,13 165:4,10 186:25 206:15 214:10 215:22 223:4 232:13 278:5 certainly 93:21 131:12 152:7 217:19 certainty 25:13 75:1 89:23 202:21 certification 24:10 85:15 266:10 certify 283:2 284:3 cetera 23:23 cfr 76:7 97:9 chain 142:3,20 chair 51:16 chaired 52:18 chairman 24:9,11 180:7 206:4 chairperson 81:5 chamber 34:13 64:10 chambered 64:6 chance 14:13 change 44:21 234:12 changed 123:7 274:21 275:5 changes 19:7 33:5 100:12 115:7 160:11 274:25 275:10 284:7 changing 100:22 234:11,18 chapter 50:15 character 221:17 characteristics 166:22 Page 10 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [charge - concern] charge 55:17 chart 7:10 100:5,9 157:16 158:2 chartered 24:14 chatted 218:20 check 159:13 272:1 chicago 52:20 children 232:21 choice 254:22 chris 4:18 13:4 church 23:23 cicely 103:14,14,17 103:17 circular 38:2,7 49:23 66:10 95:24 207:19 circulated 41:13 circumstances 132:22 230:20 261:12 cited 79:9 citizens 17:9 214:5 city 102:5,8 claims 131:19 clarify 87:7 191:12 claw 130:16 193:13 193:14 203:13 clean 97:16 clear 46:2 159:18 160:12,14 168:19 171:19 215:13 216:15 255:1 clearly 45:2 client 130:3 131:20 137:8 198:18,22 clip 199:18 close 35:11 181:1 closely 55:22 coaching 171:21 243:21 coalition 25:2,23,25 26:4,7,13 code 75:18,22,24 76:23 77:5,15,25 78:4 105:16 121:25 188:9 189:7,21 190:20 233:1 codes 7:21 109:1,2 133:23 coffee 70:8 collaboration 21:25 91:20,24 92:4 98:7 102:11 colleague 87:19 233:6 colleagues 246:4 collected 160:1,3 collection 181:1 210:8,11,13 251:8 colorful 221:17 columbia 1:2 2:2 13:12 columns 151:18 combined 95:23 come 21:25 28:22 38:10 49:23 50:2 78:25 88:11 89:12 105:10,25 114:9 124:9 170:14 172:3 223:8,8 226:21 234:4 261:7 comes 124:3 222:5 225:12,12,13 245:2 comfortable 248:10 coming 69:11 106:14,17,20,23 107:4,9 115:8 214:9 225:25 226:11 234:24 commencing 2:19 comment 71:2 73:6 79:5,23,25 143:23 245:10 246:13 commented 33:5 43:16 commenting 233:8 comments 5:16 42:14 43:9,11 49:19 57:25 245:21 commerce 24:7,13 34:13 64:10 commercial 108:4 227:10 251:9 commission 50:9 73:22 75:17 229:20 commit 160:10 commitment 114:14 commitments 248:15 committed 211:20 211:20 committee 24:8,12 24:14,18 48:19 52:15,22,23 55:23 56:8 60:2,6,10 67:25 69:10 80:17 81:24,25 89:17,18 99:8,10 100:21 101:8,9,12 138:4 142:4 163:16 180:7 261:4 263:23,23 267:20,23 271:18 committees 60:2 81:22 85:14 96:15 98:18 99:7 105:21 243:2 245:10 246:15 258:5 262:6 263:22 273:6 common 204:12 communicated 36:2 communicating 180:9,11 188:8,17 189:6 190:19 192:24 communication 46:5,5 47:24,25 48:7 49:8 62:6 142:3 153:2 178:5,9 181:14 204:14 communications 32:8 40:1,3 45:7,20 45:24 46:20,25 48:2 48:4,5 60:23 62:23 76:3 77:2 78:21 131:5,9,17,20 137:7 137:9 141:8 142:1 146:3 153:22 165:21,24 189:17 192:15 199:3 203:15,23 241:6 281:3 communities 117:20 244:24 community 34:7 49:25 62:12 72:7,10 72:19 86:23 87:6 88:2,5,7 89:16 95:2 106:10 109:8,9 182:24 companies 28:23 202:8 company 253:3 compare 222:2 compete 256:8 competitiveness 35:7 compiled 196:8 compiling 211:22 complaints 218:9 220:12 complete 157:8 complicated 145:11 component 148:25 compostable 70:8 compound 20:8 23:6 37:20 40:8 42:20 43:4 78:3 80:21 81:3,13,23 96:11 103:15 135:4 164:21 266:23 267:11 268:5,22 269:15 270:11 computer 283:10 computing 22:23 concept 188:15 concern 17:6 103:21 170:12 251:7,15 261:3,10 262:16 Page 11 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [concerned - core] concerned 50:17 152:5,7 158:14,19 158:21 161:1 168:25 181:7 249:19,21 250:4 262:19,21 concerns 31:10 186:9,16 211:19 213:22 conclude 81:18 concluded 282:5 concludes 184:3 conclusion 54:11 59:15 70:24 71:8,24 73:3 74:24 78:20 80:8 135:10 173:15 206:13 215:9,10 216:12 220:6 225:3 227:19 242:16 266:24 concrete 102:16 conditioning 1:7 2:7 conditions 262:10 conducted 38:21 conference 65:15 136:22 209:6 confidential 203:24 242:11 conflicting 255:19 confused 148:16,24 165:17 confusion 144:5 153:9 165:25 166:2 167:16 255:18 congress 80:24 116:6 125:13,14 259:25 260:13,19 260:20 261:1,2,4,8 261:9,14,19 262:1 262:16 congress's 259:18 278:5 congressional 35:17 116:14 117:5 258:22 259:1,15 congressionally 24:14 congressman 81:16 81:17 congresswoman 81:6 connect 235:7 connection 45:8 58:1 132:3 155:16 156:17 170:25 188:1,22,23 196:8 197:17 connie 81:6 consensus 38:5,6 92:14 95:1 96:3 97:3 125:15 234:2,4 234:23 235:22 244:21,25 245:5,18 246:16 252:14,23 253:10,15,18 255:20 263:1,24 264:6 consents 66:6 consequence 150:19 153:18 154:2,19 155:2 165:13 274:7 274:16 consequences 116:16 120:8 161:2 219:22 249:17,17 conshohocken 60:24 101:18 consider 50:11 69:4 95:25 133:23 159:12 211:24 212:4 253:18 consideration 93:15 94:4 considered 115:9 considering 111:3 124:12 135:22 212:6 consistent 20:15 62:19,23 consists 211:2 229:18 238:9,24 271:7 consortia 253:17 constitutes 74:10 consult 59:6 147:6 consultant 61:14 219:5 consultants 61:10 consulting 139:8 consumer 34:15,16 35:11 40:6 73:22 74:6,9 75:3,15,17 75:19 89:4,13,14 90:21 243:2 consumers 117:16 contact 190:14 259:9 contain 75:25 76:24 151:16 152:8 157:4 168:8 contained 244:13 272:11 containing 232:24 contains 76:8,16 77:16,20 78:1,2 168:25 contemplating 241:4 content 143:2 262:17 context 72:13,13 79:9 141:4 193:6 210:1,4,17,19 218:22 225:6 228:22,25 229:7 263:1 281:1 continuation 207:5 continue 81:11 110:18,21 127:10 250:15 251:1 continued 4:1 continuing 201:20 201:22 contract 189:21 215:7 222:13 contractor 101:24 102:2 contractual 223:20 contribute 27:5 55:8 246:5 contributed 17:4 152:9 control 108:5 151:13 161:21 162:10 convene 29:23 convenience 78:12 conversation 18:14 148:13 conversations 18:12 21:3,6 145:8,18,18 145:20 149:14 153:7 242:5 251:21 251:25 252:9 converted 212:7 convey 165:24 cooper 91:7 93:5 233:10 241:14,14 270:2,5 cooperate 264:6 cooperation 64:14 91:2,11,15,23 92:1 92:3,7,17 cooperatively 109:12 copied 64:19 copies 41:13 83:11 231:12 copy 57:4,25 83:12 117:21 205:17,20 copyright 54:2,25 55:3,6 143:6 215:13 216:7,18,21 230:19 copyrighted 39:8 copyrights 54:6 216:3 core 69:12,24 111:19 Page 12 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [corner - decentralized] corner 277:6,14,20 278:11 279:4 corporate 14:22 60:22 101:17 102:19 150:4 153:4 corporation 36:15 correct 22:9 27:8,12 33:15 49:5 57:16 58:14,20,21 59:24 61:3 64:20,24 66:8 68:5,6,18 75:23 83:4 84:3,4,10,12 84:18,23 85:1,2,24 86:7,11,12 90:23 93:1 128:14,17,22 128:23 129:3 135:1 135:3,5,8 136:23 145:15,16 149:5 150:6 159:14 161:3 177:9 180:16 200:10,10,14 201:10 202:25 203:5 204:18 205:1 205:2,25 206:8,11 207:1,2 208:11,17 209:8 211:4,6 217:16 220:20 225:9,17 227:4,5,8 227:9 228:11 229:20 230:4,8 232:9 233:6,7,10 234:12 257:1,11,21 257:23 258:10,17 258:22,25 259:2 270:5,25 271:14,15 277:14,15 283:12 284:5 correction 159:6 corrections 284:7 correctly 157:17 283:8 correspond 201:14 201:16 correspondence 86:7 243:8 corrigenda 164:4 cost 111:19 113:2 114:19 122:22 222:22 costs 251:11 council 24:23 35:7 64:9 75:4,15 188:9 189:7,22 190:20 counsel 3:1 4:1,14 15:21 16:12,17 21:6 33:9,13 45:8,17 46:1,25 47:12,22 48:1,6,8 53:20 54:14 59:1 76:3 77:2 78:22 83:12 85:12 86:17,17 132:2 136:5 139:25 139:25 143:7 161:14 174:11,12 174:15 175:1 178:5 178:9 188:2,13,22 189:16 191:23 192:15,20 194:7,18 196:8 198:7,17 241:7 274:25 275:5 275:8 276:25 280:13 283:13 counsel's 53:19 172:4 counted 122:19 counterclaims 1:12 2:12 counterparts 28:13 28:15 counting 266:4 countless 70:3 countries 74:12 214:17,21 278:5 country 74:12 couple 19:16 84:16 124:16 130:22 187:11 218:23 course 36:22 37:8 43:19 49:2 78:10,10 87:18 102:20 150:9 272:9 court 1:1 2:1 13:12 13:25 194:11 courtesy 281:19 cover 137:2 187:9 199:21 207:17 238:17 covers 188:20 craft 234:6 crafted 248:8 create 255:17 268:19 277:8 created 101:1 277:10 creates 168:6 176:6 creating 208:23 creation 99:1 183:19 creativity 245:1 255:24 256:1 criteria 15:24 16:1 95:24 criticism 118:5 criticisms 117:11 criticize 118:3,23 120:1 criticized 245:5 csr 1:23 2:20 283:19 cups 70:8 curiosity 24:1 192:1 curious 134:23 172:21 current 21:17 99:12 100:13 168:12 261:13,14 268:2 currently 52:18 90:8 121:5 122:10 168:9 171:10,13 customers 148:15 151:22 152:19 153:9,13 166:3,6,14 166:19,22 167:3,8 167:12 210:12 226:1,2 251:9 cut 221:9 cv 1:4 2:4 13:13 d d 1:4 2:4 5:1 13:21 d.c. 1:19 2:19 3:7 13:1,7,8 29:7 33:24 34:1,6,12 35:15 38:24 39:5,10,15,22 101:21 d56571 125:1 d6751 124:25 damage 152:9 155:7 dan 60:4,5 85:21 101:6 dangerous 159:15 daniel 56:9 101:3 database 121:23 122:8,12,13,24 123:1,14 126:17 date 13:5 39:2 58:23 83:6 100:11 108:12 109:6 143:17 145:7 146:2,3 196:4 211:11 259:8 274:7 284:12 dated 6:7 7:19 8:13 8:17,19 9:7 10:12 11:17 172:1 283:22 david 188:9 189:7 190:19 193:23 194:15 233:22 day 70:3,5 89:10 90:25 173:10 days 14:18,18 15:10 89:9 dealing 148:23 deals 113:13 dear 137:20 death 158:8,14 160:20 debate 248:9 december 14:18 decentralized 99:6 Page 13 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [decide - develops] decide 77:11 115:14 decided 29:8 decision 59:20 113:24 115:21 125:17 244:25 deem 119:3 120:4 deemed 74:11 111:20 deep 222:17,18 defendant 1:11 2:11 3:11 13:20 155:17 159:5 165:18 172:9 174:2,21 175:12 176:2 274:19,23 275:6,8 defendant's 147:8 149:22 defendants 147:20 149:7 150:16,19 153:19 154:3,20 155:2,9 156:17,25 157:3,23 158:15 165:7,13 196:5,17 197:16,17 274:8,16 defense 266:17 define 23:14 177:15 degree 22:11,12 237:16,19 delegate 24:21 deliberate 161:4 deliberation 198:1 deliberations 198:9 delicate 105:13 110:16 delivered 181:15 delivery 222:23 demonstrate 114:15 dental 52:19 department 24:7,13 24:20,21 56:7,12,19 113:14 214:17 221:20 222:13 266:13,17 department's 278:4 departments 100:17 214:14 depend 106:25 255:10 267:22 277:21 dependence 278:6 depending 193:14 deponent 283:5,8 284:1 deposed 14:11 deposition 1:15 2:15 5:9 12:1 13:4,6 14:14 16:16 18:14 18:15 33:14 53:5,10 53:11 56:25 57:11 57:21 58:8 61:20 63:16 64:15 65:16 67:7,19 82:9 83:8 84:5,13,21 86:3 99:23 103:10 104:2 128:10,24 132:12 134:8 137:13 141:16,22,24 142:12 154:1 159:19 173:9,10 193:6,11,25 195:20 199:8,16 203:1,9 205:14 206:21 208:6 210:24 220:15 228:6 229:15,22 230:10 232:4 233:2 238:6 240:7 242:18 243:3 257:2,5 258:6,13 268:12 269:8 270:20 271:4 282:2 282:5 283:11 describe 66:1 69:22 221:16 described 58:2 65:21 148:22 describing 79:16 221:18 description 5:8 6:4 7:4 8:4 9:4 10:4 11:4 167:2 design 217:22 218:4 218:12 designate 261:5 designated 62:8 66:1 93:22 95:17 154:6,9,11 214:17 216:13 designation 45:2 54:8 55:14,20 56:5 56:14,23 59:5 63:2 65:25 67:4 94:21 97:11 99:16 103:5 103:24 107:22 108:10 112:6 124:20 132:25 135:11 140:21 156:4 157:6,25 158:11,18 159:9 160:7,25 161:12,19 163:25 164:7,20 165:3 174:8 186:7 187:7,17 188:5 192:13 196:21,23 197:21 198:5 201:12,18,24 202:11,20 206:14 208:4 209:25 210:22 211:17 212:22 215:9 219:15 220:9 224:3 228:20 229:9 237:5 237:10,22 241:24 242:8 243:16 244:4 244:11 245:15,25 246:10 247:4 250:2 250:13 252:17 253:1,12,25 254:6 254:20 256:3,12 257:13,16 260:6,23 262:4,23 263:8,19 268:5 269:16 270:11 272:7,15,20 274:10 275:17 276:2,13,23 279:10 280:23 281:5 designations 250:11 designee 1:17 2:17 53:16 destruction 177:17 determination 15:22 determine 123:5 133:9 235:9 determined 15:18 74:10 determining 77:10 112:20 113:8 120:16,25 127:11 127:20 devalues 210:7 251:8 develop 70:2 250:16 253:15,16 255:21 developed 109:16 252:23 255:19 developer 114:11 219:23 220:6 developers 50:10,16 111:22 developing 92:25 110:19 125:16 219:18 245:5 development 17:9 26:19 40:14 55:4 66:5 91:20 92:13,19 94:9 96:2 97:20 98:1,5 101:7,10,13 108:1 109:11 112:11 116:18 151:13 163:10 213:2 222:23 245:12 246:3,5 248:14 249:18 251:2,10,12 253:10 255:15 256:8 263:2 265:6 267:3 274:4 274:21 develops 111:9 253:23 254:3 Page 14 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [devices - doug] devices 232:24 dhs 220:25 221:13 222:9 223:7,22,24 224:8 dialed 17:22 differed 224:25 difference 101:12 106:4 174:1,20,25 175:2,3 differences 227:13 different 22:18 41:14 62:15 72:13 77:20 79:22 80:23 88:15 96:15,16,16 98:17 106:6 122:18 126:19 166:5 167:15 168:8 175:20 224:16 226:19,22 244:24 251:15 differential 224:21 227:2 difficult 70:11 113:5 126:15 157:8 212:13 267:12 difficulty 232:22 dilemma 114:8 din 138:14,17,21 139:8,9,16,21 dire 130:22 direct 60:25 81:1 100:14,20 126:20 145:1,5 151:14 176:21 262:14 directed 64:25 direction 12:3 16:12 45:8,17,25 46:25 47:11 48:5 132:2,5 188:21 189:16 196:8 274:25 275:5 275:8 276:25 directive 115:16 116:5 directly 17:22 43:16 45:5 61:2,5,11 100:19 144:8 director 21:16 60:16 80:17 90:8 directors 138:3,8,11 206:5 248:10 280:8 281:13 disagree 16:20 244:5 247:14,17 257:17 disagreeing 47:7 disagreement 244:9 disclose 15:23 16:11 16:12,23 45:7 46:24 48:4 76:4,5 77:2 78:21 132:4 134:19 137:7 140:1,2 141:9 142:1 174:11 175:2 178:5 188:2,12,23 189:16 191:22 192:16 196:10 198:8 199:3 277:1 280:14 disclosure 188:15 discounted 222:17 222:18 discovers 164:17 discovery 131:17 discuss 18:13,20 19:6,11 21:1 39:4 46:7 48:12 69:6 89:16 116:15 121:4 129:16 discussed 16:17 17:7 39:13,21 40:13 49:15 97:1 117:6 127:22 129:21 136:21 183:8 214:4 214:5 218:10 255:14 277:24 280:10,12,16,19 discusses 41:7 discussing 38:23 64:12 121:9 202:6 259:1 discussion 29:8 69:8 110:25 112:24 121:8 179:3 198:14 232:11 252:12 255:13 257:9 259:11,14 277:19 discussions 47:5 51:7 87:14,17,19 88:16 114:24 130:3 138:14,24 139:20 198:7 241:11,20 display 171:13 displayed 101:14 268:18 displaying 157:17 158:4 disposal 177:16 disseminated 47:1 distinct 41:8 distinctions 231:14 distributed 40:11,22 41:9 distributes 164:16 distribution 105:6 148:19 149:18 distributors 144:7 170:15 226:1,2 district 1:1,2 2:1,2 13:11,12 diverse 92:12 divided 43:24 division 60:3 113:13 divisions 85:6 doctrine 188:20 document 57:6 62:4 62:8 63:19 64:1 67:13,16,22 77:22 82:14,18,20,23 83:13,16,18 84:3 86:11 93:18,20 101:4 131:13 132:18,23 133:3,5 133:16,17,19 134:1 134:11 136:5 142:15,19,23 163:12,16 168:24 170:13 176:23,25 177:1 178:22 179:10 192:23,25 193:2,6,12,18 194:13 196:4,16 198:11 200:1,3,16 200:19 202:3 203:14 205:21 208:25 209:9 226:16 232:14 233:11,15,16 234:13 238:3,12 241:20 256:23 259:3 268:16 271:11 documents 12:8 15:8,9,13,15,16,18 16:6,11,13,15,17,18 16:22,25 17:1 18:8 66:1 67:18 105:17 106:6,9 107:9,12 110:17 111:11,19 116:13 121:9 149:13 151:12,15 151:16,23,25 152:8 161:2 162:13 166:4 167:7,13,23 169:19 177:2,5,14,16 180:21,23,24 181:2 198:3 199:19 215:14 216:9 218:1 219:20 226:20 doing 97:18 102:7 112:17 189:14,15 211:10 212:8,9 dollar 153:17 154:1 154:18 dollars 147:19 domain 7:22 25:11 145:10 146:16 149:14,17 151:16 double 22:12 82:12 doug 51:19 52:5 Page 15 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [downloads - environment] downloads 149:16 dozen 88:3 draft 32:17 66:24 199:25 202:17 203:7 207:18 drafted 32:17 42:10 42:19 43:2 drafting 98:9,12,20 268:20 269:1 drafts 66:9,14,18 drag 144:4 145:10 145:23 146:5 148:18 176:7 dreyfus 219:3,4 drink 97:15 drinking 70:7 drop 17:23 due 17:9 144:4,5 214:14 225:21 244:23 duly 14:4 283:5 duties 99:14,18 e e 5:1,6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 57:15 57:17 58:12,17 60:5 62:13,25 63:6,13,14 64:4,7,18,20,23 67:10 84:7,9,16 103:13,17,21 104:11 128:13,15 128:16 129:2,18,22 130:18 134:24 136:20 137:2,17,21 138:7,13 139:22 141:1,4 142:8,18,20 143:9,9,9,16 179:2 193:23 194:5,15,21 195:2,3,23 196:1 199:12,21,21,23 200:5,6 201:7 203:4 203:7,17 204:7,9,16 204:24 205:24 206:3,24 207:7,9,18 208:2,9,17,22 209:4 209:4,8 211:2,14 213:19 214:3,7 215:2 217:5 218:19 220:18,19,24 222:1 222:3,6,6 223:9 228:10,22,23 229:18 232:8,9 233:5 238:24 239:4 239:14 241:18 242:22 243:7 256:24 257:9,21 258:9,16,21 270:24 271:13 283:1,1 earlier 58:2 62:5 65:21 97:2 108:17 113:18 115:18 136:21 147:10 150:9 175:21 196:15 197:6,15 220:19 232:8 239:18 255:14 266:5 early 273:23 earth 34:22 40:7 echostar 93:6 economic 24:22 economy 151:22 editor 103:18 163:14 editors 163:18 edits 267:9 268:1 educate 15:5 25:15 183:9 education 107:4,4 educational 106:22 107:1 effect 97:25 98:25 165:12 193:11 199:1 effective 91:21 98:6 effectiveness 37:11 235:21 effort 27:19 42:22 200:8 202:9 efforts 54:4 65:9 105:14 183:8 212:24 egs 1:4 2:4 13:13 eight 80:14 either 41:15 74:7 84:8 113:23 115:13 115:20 123:7,13 124:16 125:2 145:24 146:6 211:3 electronic 183:3 electronics 89:4 90:21 email 5:14,18,20,22 6:5,10,20,22 7:8,13 7:15,17,19 8:5,7,9 8:11,13,15,17,19,22 9:5,7,9,11,13,15,17 10:8,10,12,14,16,18 10:20,22 11:5,7,15 11:17 17:18 embarrassed 76:17 emerging 105:13 emily 86:13,16 87:11 88:11 89:6 93:6,9 102:23,25 103:3,7 104:1 136:20 241:12,22 employee 23:24 206:10,18 279:5 employees 61:1 97:19,23 98:1,25 211:21 266:1 279:3 employment 22:14 81:5 83:23 empower 255:24 256:1 en 74:8 enact 79:4 encapsulates 268:8 encompassed 263:2 encourage 235:2 ended 201:9 energy 278:6 enforceable 215:7 engage 44:16,17 116:14 117:9 125:2 engaged 22:2 29:2 29:12 43:21 45:15 46:19 47:25 65:10 117:5 200:9 engagement 43:20 110:3 117:11 239:23 engages 227:6 253:9 engaging 125:13 engineer 23:2,3 engineering 48:11 49:15 252:24 253:22 254:3 engineers 1:7 2:7 enright 103:14,14 103:17 ensure 97:19 114:13 115:12 159:4 162:13 213:21 219:23 ensuring 92:12 110:20 enter 74:11 213:19 230:20 entered 240:21 entering 215:6 enterprise 35:9 40:15 55:4 110:19 148:20 213:3 248:14 249:19 251:10 enterprises 263:3 enthusiasm 243:13 entire 218:5 entities 30:18 31:1,6 47:25 entitled 16:14,18 47:11,13 198:25 entity 23:19 47:21 environment 17:10 232:22 234:5 244:21 245:18 Page 16 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [environmental - expert] environmental 24:7 34:21 67:11 epa 97:13 232:12,17 equally 43:24 equipped 22:15 errata 163:23 164:2 284:9 error 157:18 158:6 158:8 162:1 269:17 errors 124:24 151:16 152:9 155:16 156:17,24 157:4,10,19,22 159:5 160:1,4 161:8 161:16,22 162:18 162:23 163:20 164:10 168:8 196:5 196:14,15,16,19 197:2,6,6,7,14,14,15 198:2 esq 3:5,13,14 4:4 establish 112:19 113:7 estimate 42:3,6 153:18 154:1,18 155:20 263:16 et 13:10 23:23 european 50:9 61:15 74:7 evaluating 102:7 event 39:7 63:14 64:6,11 67:21 89:25 90:25 events 86:23,25 87:6 87:12 88:2,5,7,11 88:13,19,20 89:1,8 89:10,21 270:6 everyday 17:9 evidence 148:11 evolution 69:20,22 exact 34:3 37:17 39:2 42:1 83:6 108:12 109:24 123:12 223:10 exactly 28:24 39:20 41:2 118:11 122:6 146:18 171:23 211:10 217:7 223:4 examination 14:7 53:10 examine 94:16 95:15 96:9 examining 93:15 94:4 95:6 96:24 179:8 example 125:20,21 excellence 151:11 235:19 excellent 185:23 exception 17:3 exchange 57:15 58:12,17 84:7 86:6 128:13,15,16 208:22 222:16 223:15 226:16,20 232:7 243:7 278:8 exchanged 109:5 exchanging 108:22 109:19 excited 69:10 106:6 232:17 excluding 21:5 132:3 exclusively 108:4 121:20 123:14 excuse 109:10 135:14 184:12 208:12 212:4 229:13 232:23 254:12 excused 282:4 exec 137:20,25 execute 148:19 153:11 executing 148:14 execution 144:5 145:11 166:1 167:17 176:8 executive 35:20 60:12 67:25 69:9,10 99:13 100:16 138:4 142:3 180:7 207:24 263:23 exempt 5:11 exercise 68:17,23 exhibit 5:9,11,14,16 5:18,20,22 6:5,7,10 6:12,15,20,22 7:5,8 7:10,13,15,17,19,21 8:5,7,9,11,13,15,17 8:19,22 9:5,7,9,11 9:13,15,17,19 10:5 10:8,10,12,14,16,18 10:20,22 11:5,7,9 11:12,15,17 53:5,8 56:25 57:3,8,11,14 57:21,24 58:6,8,11 58:15 61:20,22,24 62:18,22 63:16,22 64:15,17 65:16,18 66:2 67:7,9,14 68:14 82:9,12,17 83:3,8,10,14,17 84:5,6,11,13,15,19 84:21,22,24 86:3,6 99:23 100:1,2 103:9 103:10 104:2,5,9 128:10,13,16,18,24 129:1,4,7 132:12,16 132:17 133:7,12 134:8,10,12 137:13 137:16 142:12,14 142:16 143:2 176:22 178:16,19 193:17,22,25 194:2 194:6 195:20,22,25 197:16 199:8,11,16 199:19,23 200:2,5 200:17 201:6 202:18 203:1,4,9,12 204:16,24 205:14 205:17,20 206:21 206:23 207:4,5,7,15 207:17 208:6,9,13 210:24 211:2,5 217:2 220:15,18,21 228:6,9 229:15,18 229:22,24,25 230:10,13,14 232:4 232:7,12 233:2,5 238:6,8,10,18,20,24 240:7,9,10,11,15 242:18,21 243:3,7,9 256:23 257:2,5,8 258:6,8,11,13,16,18 268:10,12,15 269:8 269:11 270:4,15,20 270:23 271:4,6,9,21 existed 223:5 existence 224:11 existing 245:11 exists 218:8 264:19 expanding 100:23 expect 131:10 272:2 expectation 114:10 151:24 expectations 20:12 79:16,19,25 96:16 219:25 expected 124:8 152:1 expense 222:22 experience 91:21 98:4 166:19,23 167:3,9 181:8 221:5 experiencing 19:17 19:22 expert 147:21 148:2 149:1,9,24 150:9,21 153:21 154:4,21 155:4,10 165:2,8 168:1,15 172:15 175:16 176:5 182:24 217:18 218:14,15 220:8 251:5 252:18 254:7 274:10 Page 17 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [experts - fee] experts 251:22 252:1 expired 195:9 explain 70:13 101:11 111:24 164:22 166:21 168:10 272:3 explained 120:7 209:17 explaining 212:12 explore 149:4 explored 120:8 express 117:11 expressed 71:5 105:18 261:3 expressing 71:10,15 expressly 203:14 extended 195:9 extensive 211:21 extent 15:20 34:2 38:6 45:3,24 54:12 70:11 76:2 77:1 93:18 95:18 131:25 134:18 137:6 139:24 141:7,25 150:21 153:20 171:16 173:3,14 174:10,24 178:4 187:25 189:15 192:14 196:7 198:6 215:10 216:12 225:2 227:18 241:5 241:17,19 246:11 250:12 251:2 253:2 254:8 266:24 267:2 273:4 274:24 275:4 276:24 280:12 extremely 157:8 eye 2:18 f f 283:1 f963 73:17,23,25 74:7,18 75:4,16,20 facilitate 265:5 facility 102:15 fact 101:13 111:18 112:17 113:24 115:8,20 116:8,23 117:21 126:4 144:5 150:14,17 168:7 178:12 179:20 216:17 218:8 220:13 221:18,25 222:19 229:12 235:25 246:20 259:9 260:14 264:19 factor 97:5 factors 93:14 94:3,6 105:21,24 facts 54:17 154:25 168:10 175:9,9,21 175:25 220:3 250:20,22 251:16 251:20 factual 152:8 244:8 247:5 failed 114:20 152:1 fair 46:4,6 121:9 fall 140:3 177:24 falls 198:21 false 157:17 172:5 familiar 25:3,4,11 29:9 41:18 55:2,24 67:15 71:9,20 72:1 72:7,14,22,24 73:4 73:8 74:5 104:10 121:20 124:15 126:24 137:17 140:11,13 164:1 170:25 213:11 216:5 261:10 269:18 fashion 29:19 30:18 feature 217:21 218:11,12 february 8:13 58:23 99:19 federal 38:3 50:2 66:4 75:18,22,24 76:23 77:6,15 78:1 78:2,5,18,25 80:5 95:25 97:2,8 98:4 107:25 121:13,16 121:25 123:19,22 125:8,9,13 126:12 127:3 183:25 229:19 247:1,20 248:2 249:4 250:8 250:25 259:19 262:1,11 264:6,13 264:19,23 265:2,5 265:13,21,25 266:7 266:11,19 273:7 federation 34:16 40:6 fee 3:5 13:22,22 14:21 15:20 16:7,10 16:20 19:8,13 20:3 20:8,17,22 21:5,8 21:22 22:7,16 23:6 23:13,21 24:3 25:6 25:17,24 26:9,20 27:9,21,24 28:3 29:13,25 30:8,14,20 31:2,13,20,24 32:6 32:13,20,25 33:7,17 34:2 36:4,13,20 37:15,20,25 38:14 38:18,25 39:6,16,23 40:8,23 41:10,17,22 41:25 42:4,11,20 43:4,14 44:2,10,20 45:1,6,16,23 46:6 46:23 47:7,14 48:3 49:2,10 50:12,21 51:1,9 52:9,16 53:15,20,22 54:7,11 54:18,23 55:10,13 55:19 56:4,13,22 57:6 58:3 59:4,14 59:18 61:6,12 62:7 63:1,20 64:25 65:3 65:12,24 66:12,17 67:3,23 68:10,21 69:15 70:18,23 71:7 71:13,17,23 72:5,16 73:2,20 74:15,23 75:5,12 76:1,9,18 76:25 77:17 78:3,13 78:19 79:10,13,20 80:1,7,21 81:3,13 81:23 82:16,24 87:2 87:8 91:12,16 92:21 93:2,17 94:18,20 95:8,16 96:11,22,25 97:10 98:3,11,16 99:2,15 103:4,15,23 104:6,23 106:2,24 107:5,11,21 108:9 109:21 112:2,5,22 113:10 115:4 116:1 116:10,25 117:13 118:7,13,19,25 119:2,8,10,18,20,24 120:3,12,18,21 121:18 122:4 124:14 125:11,25 126:14 127:5,23 128:3 129:8,13 130:5,14,21,25 131:4,7,12,24 132:10,24 133:5,19 134:17 135:4,9,19 135:24 136:2,7,12 136:17,24 137:5 138:1,18 139:2,13 139:23 140:9,15,20 141:6,17,20,23 142:10 143:3,11 144:2,10,18,25 145:6 146:8,24 147:9,21 148:2,7,12 149:1,9,23 150:7,20 151:6,9 152:4,15,23 153:3,6,20 154:4,8 154:13,21 155:3,10 155:21 156:1,3,9,13 Page 18 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [fee - form] 156:19 157:5,24 158:10,17,22 159:1 159:8,12,18,24 160:6,15,21,24 161:11,18 162:2,8 162:19,24 163:5,19 163:24 164:6,12,19 165:2,8,19 166:7,15 166:24 167:4,18 168:1,15,22 169:9 169:17 170:2,11,23 171:16,22 172:5,12 172:15 173:3,8,13 173:20 174:4,7,23 175:15,23 176:4 177:6 178:3,13,17 178:20,24 179:6,18 180:4,17 181:12 182:2 184:10,18 185:8,11,20 186:6 186:14,22 187:6,16 187:24 188:11,19 189:9,15,23 190:8 190:11 191:3,8,11 191:22 192:10,12 192:25 193:3,7,12 196:7,20 197:1,8,19 198:4,23 199:2,14 199:20,22 200:15 200:18 201:3,11,17 201:23 202:10,19 203:13,25 204:10 204:19 205:17 206:12,19 207:8,14 207:20 208:3,12,25 209:9,23 210:5,20 211:16 212:17,21 213:8 214:22 215:3 215:8,24 216:11,23 217:17,23 218:13 219:14 220:7 221:9 221:14 222:2,10 223:3,18 224:2,19 225:2,10,18 226:8 226:14 227:18,21 228:12,19 229:8 230:22 231:7,13,21 231:23 232:14 233:11,16,20 234:13,20 235:4,14 236:5,10,15,22 237:4,9,21 238:3 239:1,3,8,10,20 240:1,16,23,25 241:5,23 242:7,12 242:15 243:15 244:3,10,18 245:14 245:24 246:9 247:3 248:4,18,23 249:5,8 249:13,22 250:1,10 251:4,18 252:2,6,16 252:25 253:11,24 254:5,19 255:1 256:2,11 257:12,17 257:22 258:19 259:3,13,21 260:2,5 260:9,22 261:21 262:3,13,22 263:7 263:12,18 264:8,16 264:24 265:7,15,19 266:2,23 267:11 268:4,22 269:3,15 270:10 271:2,20,25 272:6,14,19 273:1,9 273:12,14,16,19 274:9,17,24 275:3 275:16 276:1,6,12 276:19,22 277:9,25 278:12,23 279:9,18 279:25 280:11,21 281:2,14,17,23 feel 47:17 249:13 feels 250:3 felt 114:7 117:24 248:10 fenwick 3:12 13:19 fenwick.com 3:19 3:20 fh 130:24 field 138:7 140:18 figure 20:2 75:11 182:23 200:16 figured 224:8 figures 20:11 266:4 figuring 110:9,11 filed 13:11 57:5 139:16 215:20 filing 135:22 177:25 fill 90:13,19 fimsa 113:13 114:24 115:25 116:9,24 120:2 229:13 final 58:25 123:7 202:15 209:15 finances 143:18 144:23 financial 150:23 financials 18:21 find 109:19 114:25 121:15 152:21 172:20,21,24 226:22 247:8 268:11 273:7 275:13 findings 50:3 fine 15:25 127:18 281:20 finish 78:10,14 273:13 finished 133:11 fire 1:5 2:5 firm 29:9,24 30:4 32:16 42:13,19,25 43:7,9 44:7 131:22 132:2 202:7,9,14 firms 44:7,11,12,17 44:24 130:1 first 14:4 28:22 29:1 29:11,17 30:6 39:12 39:13,21 63:3,11 68:9,14,15 82:16 83:2 104:6 108:7 111:20 136:16 143:10 144:22 145:23 146:5,10 155:14,15 156:24 157:1,2 199:20 203:15 211:9 220:13 221:22 222:21 224:7 232:12 240:14 270:1 five 60:23 89:9 108:13 264:23 265:2,13 276:5,8 fix 75:14 flagship 181:13 fleishman 131:6,9 131:23 132:9 202:16 flexible 40:19 112:14 224:9 flipping 82:12 158:3 floor 3:16 4:6 focus 23:25 62:17 folks 241:17 251:21 follow 16:21 263:22 268:20 269:1 followed 269:20 following 40:6 79:4 follows 14:5 93:14 209:4 270:3 force 70:21 71:3,6 71:16 252:24 253:22 254:3 forced 115:13 216:21 foregoing 284:4 foreign 74:24 foremost 114:11 forget 61:13 86:15 173:8 forgot 17:13 forgotten 166:11 form 11:9 19:8,13 22:7 24:3 41:17 57:5 59:8 89:11 115:4 116:1 125:25 126:14 127:5 Page 19 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [form - going] 150:20 152:23 160:24 166:24 167:4,18 168:16 173:21 182:2 197:19 198:4 209:1 220:7 224:19 239:20 248:5 249:10 251:6 260:5 265:19 268:17 284:8 formation 31:16 formats 226:23,24 231:16 formed 28:6 former 281:12 formerly 99:10 275:22 forming 34:7 forms 57:10 formulate 30:3 formulation 256:9 fortunately 155:12 forum 7:21 89:13,15 forwarded 65:7 194:24 forwarding 64:23 found 157:9 foundation 26:9 27:21 38:25 44:10 52:16 66:12 69:15 74:23 75:5 91:12 98:11 107:17 112:5 169:17 178:13 179:18 180:4 195:8 209:23 210:20 211:16 224:2 251:5 257:22 258:19 260:10 262:24 263:18 277:25 four 24:8 89:9 218:24 fpa 25:14,21 27:3,4 27:7,20 36:25 65:10 frame 32:14 109:25 francisco 3:17 4:7 frankly 124:23 free 47:17 50:8 114:19 152:21 244:1 246:22,24 247:17,25 249:1,15 250:6,23 252:15 freely 185:25 246:4 freezes 261:6 frequent 252:11 277:19 frequently 277:24 279:7,16,23 fresh 38:9 friend 34:22 friendly 218:12 friends 40:7 frighten 158:25 159:2,4 front 95:10 143:2 202:4 241:18 247:14 full 181:1 217:14,14 217:15 266:1 273:4 fully 169:11 fun 243:20,24 function 55:21 56:1 181:7 functionality 223:11 functioning 59:2,11 functions 59:7 fund 148:20 249:18 251:10 fundamentally 244:5 funded 107:16 108:1 funding 37:1 49:20 187:23 188:10 189:2,8 190:18,21 191:1,15,20 192:6 222:15 223:14 278:2 funds 266:7 furnish 147:14 198:20 furnishing 215:1 further 43:25 44:4 83:17 95:24 119:17 133:7,12 136:14 194:6 198:14 200:17 future 113:4 223:17 248:14 g g 61:19 101:3 gain 213:14 230:2 gains 19:12 game 46:4 gather 123:17 gathered 123:15 general 4:14 16:19 33:13 38:13 54:14 80:2 85:12 96:21 117:17 143:13 146:19,20,21,22 184:7,16 185:17 186:20 187:14 270:1,17 generally 17:7 20:13 36:6 47:1 54:22 97:13 146:3 163:6 235:12 237:11 269:4 generate 41:16 generates 243:13 germany 138:20,25 getting 119:10 210:12 220:25 221:12 222:8 gillerman 91:5 93:5 give 39:1 42:7 73:11 80:2 83:6 93:19 96:19 99:8 108:12 109:23 119:17 125:20 127:16 131:12 146:1 155:18 162:24 167:2 182:25 216:8 238:16 268:9 276:7 277:22 278:13 281:17 given 125:16 214:8 283:12 284:6 gives 218:2 giving 108:8 194:17 195:1 glad 271:22 glean 117:17 global 21:18 90:12 90:15 151:21 280:3 globally 151:10 go 17:24 19:14 42:6 46:6,9 76:8 77:4 78:23 81:14 89:16 113:24 115:5,21 117:3 121:15 127:10,19 130:5 137:10 141:22 149:25 151:4 154:12 156:5 158:1 159:22 168:17 174:13 178:7 179:17,25 190:11 190:23 192:17 193:16 205:6 217:16 248:6 260:11 267:1,20 276:10 278:13 goal 180:22 214:4 goals 83:24 gobbi 61:19 goes 109:2 163:12 going 15:22 16:10 17:23 18:1 35:3,6,8 35:10,13 44:21 46:7 81:8 87:16 102:7 105:15 108:18 114:10 119:7 124:18 128:4 130:7 130:8,12,14,16 131:1 136:12,13 141:21 154:15 Page 20 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [going - high] 158:8 168:23 173:13 176:9,14 180:2 181:4 191:21 193:3,17,21 203:13 203:15 204:11 205:8 207:3 214:16 221:15,16 233:25 238:11,12 271:2,20 274:1 275:3 good 13:3 14:9,10 16:2 18:25 106:10 112:15 159:25 227:23 google 189:2 191:20 192:4,8 195:8 gordon 91:5 93:5 gotten 125:1 gov 207:13 government 21:17 44:6 59:3,12 70:22 71:20 72:24 73:8,11 73:12 74:16 91:2,10 91:14,23 92:1,3,7 92:16,17,18,22 93:14 94:3,16,23 95:5,14,17 96:7,8 96:20 97:23,25 98:5 98:25 107:9,11,25 115:16 121:17 124:11,11 125:8,9 126:7,11,12 127:2,4 139:19 140:4,8,10 140:14,19,23 142:4 142:8 183:21,23 206:6,10,17 234:11 234:11,18,21 235:20 236:1 239:24 247:1,20 248:2 249:4 250:9 250:25 262:11 264:7,23 265:2,5,13 266:8,11,19 273:4,5 279:3,5 governmental 74:22 governments 73:18 73:24 125:23,24 126:2 235:3,6,12 236:20 256:10 grains 28:17 grant 195:8 grated 244:2 254:16 great 68:17 128:3 133:13 221:4 273:3 greater 29:5 33:22 36:23 91:2,10,14 110:17 111:4,10 gregory 64:24 65:6 ground 97:15 171:18 group 23:17 26:1 27:8 28:10,12 29:2 29:12,23 30:7 31:17 32:15 34:18 36:2,3 46:22 47:13,21,22 178:12 234:23 235:23 255:20 277:6,20 278:11 279:4 groups 34:21 35:12 40:7,12 89:14 182:25 250:18 grove 1:18 2:17 5:2 13:14 14:3,9 53:7 57:2,13,23 58:10 63:19 64:17 65:1 82:11 84:6,15,22 86:6 104:5 128:14 131:22 132:15 136:14,20 137:16 144:13 176:21 194:4 199:11 201:6 203:11 205:16,19 228:9 230:13 232:7 235:2 236:12 238:22 242:20 256:22 261:17 268:14 269:11 270:23 281:21 282:2 284:3 grover 128:12 guess 54:19 80:23 106:3 127:1 129:10 234:15 guidance 15:21 95:25 guideline 123:1 gunderson 81:18 guns 211:9 guy 212:12 guys 159:13 h h 5:6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 228:17 habitate 97:16 half 240:15 hand 65:18 83:11 103:9 114:8,14,16 193:21 238:8 handed 57:2,13,23 58:10 67:9 82:11 195:22 203:11 205:16,19 240:9 268:14 handing 61:22 83:10 128:12 129:1 134:10 271:6 hands 222:20 happen 136:12 224:10 happened 159:10 180:20 264:2 happening 108:23 261:1 278:8 happens 164:15 264:1 269:21 happy 81:12 154:14 179:2 222:11 hard 148:4,6 185:22 273:22 harm 145:12 148:25 150:18 161:4 164:25 167:24 168:5,10,11,19 170:20 172:9 harmful 247:2,21 248:2 249:4 250:9 harms 147:7 150:15 150:23,24 152:3,14 152:17 175:14 176:3 hazardous 113:16 hazards 169:3 head 128:21 281:16 header 204:17,25 headquarters 60:24 101:17 102:20,22 health 17:10 152:6 hear 28:22 105:12 109:17 151:6 161:22 186:1,4 246:19 254:21 heard 25:1 72:9,13 105:17 146:16 152:19 159:20 172:4 218:9 253:5 hearing 112:12 131:18 157:1 heating 1:6 2:6 heavily 94:13 held 13:6 23:11 24:15 164:16 hello 87:13 help 23:14 42:14 59:20 98:9 114:12 117:18 202:7,9 211:21 helped 32:14,17 helping 69:24 97:14 162:12 224:7 helps 98:6 101:6 251:11 hesitant 178:24 hey 261:8 hf 129:7,25 130:16 130:24 hi 87:13 high 110:22 219:18 Page 21 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [highlighting - independence] highlighting 64:11 highway 102:13 hill 80:13,15 81:5,20 107:14 112:25 116:20 hillard 131:6,10,23 132:9 202:16 hired 23:1 hit 229:5 hitchcock 62:11 hold 45:6 154:8 173:20 175:23 177:4,6,13,15 192:10 200:11,15 231:21 240:23 260:9 275:1 homeland 221:20 222:14,20 honest 18:24 honestly 102:25 hong 74:5 hooper 257:25 258:1,9 hope 243:13 houck 206:24 207:23,24 271:13 hour 176:10 hours 14:19 15:14 house 22:18 35:18 81:24 259:5 housewright 28:18 30:13 279:14 huh 51:23 175:13 hundred 187:11 hypothetical 172:13 173:17 256:13 i ibr 36:17 idea 16:2 30:6,17,25 31:5 37:24 38:12 69:11 106:7 107:25 110:6,8,9,10,24 129:12 131:7 141:11 213:4,6 245:13 255:13,14 ideas 105:18 110:14 246:4 identification 53:6 57:1,12,22 58:9,16 61:21 63:17 64:16 65:17 67:8 82:10 83:9 84:5,14,21 86:4 99:24 103:11 104:3 128:11,25 132:13 134:9 137:14 142:13 194:1 195:21 199:9 199:17 203:2,10 205:15 206:22 208:7 210:25 220:16 228:7 229:16,23 230:11 232:5 233:3 238:7 240:8 242:19 243:4 257:3,6 258:7,14 268:13 269:9 270:21 271:5 identified 30:2 62:5 93:13 121:12 150:8 176:7 201:7 208:2 identifies 83:24 231:2 identify 13:16 166:10 167:8 198:10 identifying 29:14 166:13 266:20 ietf 253:5,9,13 ignorant 76:7,12,13 76:15,15,19 ignore 76:12 ileane 56:16 illinois 52:20 imagine 178:25 immediate 159:6 immediately 160:11 impact 143:18 144:4 144:23 145:2 146:2 146:17 impacted 70:10 113:21 114:3 167:17 impactful 70:1 impacting 166:1 impacts 117:6,7 251:22 implement 116:5 implies 54:12 73:6 233:24 imply 118:2 implying 116:4 importance 36:8 important 17:8 34:24 38:3 94:6,7 110:21 152:6,11 159:20 162:12 224:6,7 236:2 impose 80:5 imposed 262:10 impression 168:6 improper 47:3 273:18 improve 70:2,5 inability 153:10 inadvertently 191:18 inches 217:6 include 34:8,11 35:17,20 85:16,17 259:25 included 92:23 204:6 206:25 263:25 includes 77:7 121:23 including 40:12 77:20 92:15,22 194:24 199:12 204:8 208:10 239:5 242:1 inclusion 170:21 income 5:12 incoming 206:4 incomplete 207:15 inconsistent 44:22 incorporate 75:4,6 75:16 77:21 97:2 124:12 125:9,24 235:3,13 236:20 256:10 262:1,11 incorporated 44:8 70:16 72:15,18,25 73:9,13,18,22,24 75:21 105:4 121:6 121:13,17,24 122:8 122:15 123:2 124:18 126:11,13 127:3,4 169:8,16,21 169:25 170:9,19 179:22 213:1 219:11,21 224:14 224:18,22 225:1 227:3,14,17 230:3,7 231:19,20 232:1,3 233:1 235:10,17 237:25 246:23 247:1,11,19 248:1 248:12 249:3 250:8 250:24 262:7 267:10,14 268:2 incorporates 126:8 incorporating 97:8 264:7 incorporation 11:12 31:12 36:11 40:5 64:13 73:5,14 74:17 75:10 77:8 86:19 126:3 133:10,17,24 237:19 259:11,19 260:1 261:2 incorporations 123:18 133:3 232:13 increase 19:16,21,24 incurs 222:23 independence 40:14 40:16 Page 22 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [independent - introduced] independent 15:23 76:4 77:3 78:22,24 115:15 141:10 independently 245:19 index 12:1 indicate 75:20 118:16 149:14 226:23 250:22 indicated 74:17 86:10 134:5 204:17 204:25 283:4 indicating 238:17 individual 98:18 99:7 210:7,15 267:5 individually 62:10 95:19 107:23 109:13 253:4 individuals 80:23 181:16 267:8,25 industries 22:6 157:13 industry 21:17,18 21:21,25 22:1,4,5 23:17 90:13,16 91:2 91:10,15 93:16 94:4 94:17 95:6,15 96:9 114:12,13 171:7 infer 211:18 influenced 105:22 105:24 inform 36:7 59:20 79:3 103:6 198:1 informal 25:1,23,25 26:4,7 28:10,12 31:17 32:15 36:2 information 16:4 38:3 43:9,11,25 44:4 50:3 54:1,4 56:2 77:7,20,23 85:16 108:23 109:6 109:19 114:11 131:9 134:19 147:14 149:16,20 150:5 157:14,18 192:19,19,24 194:17,20 195:2,13 195:16 198:19 208:20 213:24 214:1,8,16 215:4 216:16,17 230:19 231:1,2 233:8 246:14 271:17 273:3 278:8 informational 108:21 112:16 informed 42:13 43:9 informing 38:4 183:19 infrequent 123:21 initially 112:24 initiated 49:8 initiative 18:9 29:23 32:5 injury 152:10 155:7 158:9,15 160:20 innovation 244:17 244:20 245:1,2 255:16,24 innovative 268:7 input 32:19,22,24 33:3 inquiries 184:20 insofar 59:10 inspections 102:17 instance 49:7 57:19 73:12 100:24 122:16 262:8 263:11 281:7 instances 48:25 88:17 89:24 165:16 200:20 260:25 institute 24:17 35:5 35:9 40:7 48:20 49:21 52:2 91:6,8 107:17 111:8 121:22 132:9 232:18 278:3 instruct 15:22 16:10 42:5 45:23 46:24 119:18 130:14 131:1,2,25 134:19 135:24 136:2 137:9 139:25 174:11 175:1 178:5 188:2 188:22 192:15 196:10 198:23 200:16 203:16 204:11 241:7 275:3 277:1 280:13 instructing 47:15 76:18 141:9 instruction 16:21 47:3 48:3 49:2 119:16 188:11 189:9 191:23 198:17 199:1,6 280:21 281:2 insures 163:15 integration 244:1 intelligence 123:4 123:15,17 intend 79:4 234:23 intended 85:10 116:2 163:16 178:2 216:15 intending 213:25 intends 169:7 intent 259:15 intention 169:10 234:3 interact 96:14 182:17 279:7,16,23 interacted 37:5 59:10 interaction 279:21 interactions 32:2 86:13 88:22 96:7 182:21 242:14 253:6 interest 34:18 40:6 49:25 50:9 89:13 105:1,10,13 106:1 107:14,19 109:17 110:2 125:17 126:23 138:23 160:19 185:14 202:1,1,5 204:12 214:20 223:24 278:5 interested 66:23 117:22 120:9 170:17 183:6 261:13 283:15 interesting 105:18 121:7 interests 42:14 247:9 intermittently 228:11 internal 57:5 115:10 248:8 257:21 internally 177:1 international 1:4 2:4 4:14 5:16 57:20 60:16 64:14 68:3 90:9 94:11 188:9 189:7,21 190:20 internet 114:19 149:22 152:21,22 160:19 167:23 168:13 169:7 171:14 174:3,22 175:12 176:3 197:18 198:3 252:23 253:22 interpret 142:7 interpretation 233:23 234:16 interpreting 234:22 interprets 234:19 interrupted 197:11 interview 104:1 interviewed 87:10 87:23 introduce 110:6,24 241:15,16 introduced 110:8,11 112:25 241:17 Page 23 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [introducing - knowledge] introducing 188:15 inventory 273:3,5 invested 94:13 investigate 187:22 189:2 190:25 191:15,19 investigated 192:6 investigation 187:25 188:3 investigator 86:16 investment 50:7 148:23 244:1,17 invite 79:4 invited 48:10 49:14 involve 178:8 198:18 involved 23:8 24:23 32:10,12 45:5,11 49:20 62:14 77:10 138:14,24 142:21 147:13 198:6,13 221:17 245:1 266:12 280:1 involves 139:6 163:13 277:13 iso 74:8,8 143:13 issue 108:25 112:10 115:11 116:15 139:7,10 140:5,7,8 140:11,14 142:4 163:23 164:4,10,25 172:1 179:8 184:21 186:19 192:23 198:13 202:6 220:14 270:18 issued 186:24 187:3 issues 31:11 32:15 36:11 89:15,17 140:19,23,24 144:5 184:21 189:24 193:10 200:19 itc 271:16 item 95:5 130:18 items 272:11 iterative 42:12 43:8 69:3 268:7 itmc 271:16 j j 1:23 2:20 3:5 283:19 james 57:16 85:23 104:14 199:12 203:5 218:21 243:8 january 11:10 143:22 180:1,20,21 180:22,25 181:6 187:4 jeff 6:15 7:5 65:1 68:7,16,19,20 104:17 128:14 208:18 236:12 jeffrey 1:18 2:17 5:2 13:14 14:3 282:2 284:3 jennings 281:11,12 jim 6:15 57:19 62:14 64:5 81:16 83:25 84:2 85:11,22,23 100:14 142:3 146:25 180:9,10 182:20,23 184:22 207:25 218:20,20 jkfee 3:9 job 1:24 21:14,15,20 22:15 58:24 68:17 101:6 237:12 jobs 80:15,19 joe 258:3,4 280:4 john 18:19 86:7 93:6 104:14 128:17 145:15 146:16 147:10 148:14 149:14 153:8 176:7 211:3,18 212:10 220:18 221:4,17 222:18 251:21 252:1,12 270:25 joined 13:23 joint 27:19 200:8 jointly 27:3 jonathan 64:23 65:6 jordana 14:21 joseph 135:1 journals 107:16 108:4 jr 4:13 july 7:11 10:12 11:13 100:6 135:22 137:3 justice 142:17 k kate 58:13,18 59:25 60:1,7 kathe 258:1 katherine 60:13 85:13 99:9 208:10 270:24 kathie 100:15,17,24 101:2,5,17 kathie's 101:6 keep 35:3,6,8,10,13 40:16 76:9 81:8 97:14 203:22 214:10 keeping 110:19 214:20 250:18 keeps 130:18,20 kevin 3:5 13:22 14:21 key 29:6 33:23,25 34:5,12 38:3,24 39:5,14,22 41:16 50:9 105:16 123:22 250:17 262:17 kin 283:14 kind 167:2 kinds 50:4 168:11 knew 19:2 188:10 189:8 190:17,20 know 16:14,18 17:13 20:18,20 23:22 27:24,24,25 28:2,5 30:15,17,25 31:9 34:4 37:22 45:3 47:11,13,22 48:2 54:13,19,22 56:6,15,24 63:8 66:21 80:10,12 88:12 93:24 97:12 99:5 103:2 106:3 109:24 112:8 116:14,19 121:15 123:2 124:6 132:8 132:11,21 134:1,4 134:21 137:4 141:25 150:14 152:6 156:16 158:12 159:23 160:3 161:6,10 162:6 166:8 168:19 172:14 177:19,21 181:20 186:13,24 195:16 198:25 202:17,21 205:21 212:12 215:11 217:21 218:24 222:11,12 223:19 224:15,16 241:1 242:1 243:17 250:3 253:4,13 254:8 264:13,17,18 268:8 271:22,25 276:15 276:17 277:3,10 280:6 knowing 178:25 186:10 knowledge 15:17 25:18 39:24 43:2,10 54:10,17 55:12 56:17,20 78:4 94:25 98:13 102:17 117:18 126:16,18 126:21 135:18,20 140:22 143:1 145:2 145:4,5 146:19,20 146:21,22 147:23 Page 24 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [knowledge - long] 151:14 152:24 153:1 154:23 156:16 160:8 167:25 185:10 187:4 188:6,8 189:6 189:20 190:13,19 191:17 192:7 203:21 204:3,21 215:18 217:7 219:7 219:12 230:9 231:9 240:17,20 241:19 254:10 261:25 262:5,14 265:9 274:20 known 34:19 55:1 73:17 74:8,8 102:13 103:18 138:20 151:10 182:24 kong 74:5 koury 258:3,4 kramer 280:6,6,7,17 280:20 l l 13:21 143:9 lab 232:21 laboratories 52:25 203:19,22 204:6,9 laboratory 102:16 204:13 206:7 lack 26:9 27:21 44:10 66:12 69:15 74:23 75:5 91:12 98:11 112:5 169:17 178:13 179:18 180:4 209:23 210:20 211:16 224:2 251:5 257:22 258:19 260:10 262:23 263:18 277:25 language 227:13,15 233:23 260:19,20 261:13,19 263:6 266:21 267:8,25 large 104:17 launch 181:21 launched 69:18 laura 62:11,14 law 70:22 71:3,6,16 71:21 72:15,25 73:6 105:19 171:1,6 234:12,18,19 259:19 laws 105:4 lawsuit 48:15,21,22 51:11 135:23 139:16 178:1 215:20 lawyer 135:18 lawyer's 119:16 199:6 lawyers 15:16 131:18 lays 95:24 lead 86:16 158:8 leader 111:16 leaders 111:15 league 243:22 learn 18:23 19:15,21 146:13 156:24 learned 108:24 145:23 146:5,10 157:1 188:12,16 leave 58:22 led 21:24 99:10 left 58:20 256:16 269:6,7 legal 2:18 4:18 15:21 33:9 47:5 54:11 59:14 70:23 71:8,23 73:2 74:24 78:19 80:8 89:15,16 135:9 139:7,9,25 140:5,7,19,23 141:8 143:7 161:13 171:17 173:5,14 174:11,12,15 175:1 175:5,7,8 189:3 198:13 203:14 206:12 215:8,10 216:11,13 225:3 227:19 242:16 266:24 267:2 legislation 36:16 112:25 113:11,22 113:23 114:4,25 115:9,20,23,25 116:9,24 117:12 118:4,16,24 120:2 120:10 259:2,5 260:1 261:5 262:18 legislative 80:16,17 115:15 len 242:23,25 243:1 270:24 letter 6:7 65:20 66:20 116:19,20 letters 66:10 116:13 126:21 183:18 level 85:21 165:25 243:13 278:15 lewis 3:4 13:22 libraries 106:16 license 9:19 10:5 227:7,14,16 230:21 230:25 231:18 licensed 144:7 170:14 226:2 licenses 224:24 227:13,15 licensing 224:17 227:6 230:15 life 152:7,10 155:8 159:6 limit 281:15 limited 78:6 198:16 line 12:4,9,14 69:19 86:15 100:14 110:5 137:21 143:10,16 155:18 180:23,24 189:24 195:1 201:13 209:16 lines 48:5 list 35:16 121:16 196:7 207:1 listed 122:3 listen 17:19 listening 13:20 listing 196:5 270:2 lit 41:4 literature 41:6,8,14 43:3 litigation 45:5,12,15 46:20 50:25 51:3,6 51:8 65:19 132:3 136:6 137:8 143:6 177:2,5,14,17 185:5 188:1,22 189:22 196:9 203:23 240:22 241:4 276:21 280:10,12 280:16 little 123:4 179:8 181:8 210:1 220:12 243:22 live 179:11,20,25 180:2,14 181:4,6 lively 85:15 100:25 208:17 219:1,2 lively's 208:19 lives 70:2,5 llp 3:4,12 4:3 lobby 26:11 lobbyist 26:8,12 located 13:7 277:16 location 122:3 215:20 log 131:5,11,13,15 131:21 logo 69:5,7,11,19 167:22 168:12,20 168:25 170:8,21 171:10,13 172:10 173:1,2 174:1,20 175:11 176:1 long 21:12 105:12 108:17 155:20 177:21 181:21 Page 25 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [longer - mckiel] longer 114:17 166:4 167:13 look 38:9 53:7 57:6 97:14,17 113:20 114:3 115:19 121:11 124:9,17,19 206:23 257:8 looked 121:20 looking 70:6 94:9 96:1 111:2 210:6,15 227:23 235:22 looks 100:20 194:22 207:8 231:8 lorraine 32:2,4,7 135:1 199:24 201:7 202:24 238:25 239:4,15 lose 209:18 251:1 loss 147:24 152:10 155:8 160:20 lost 68:8 147:19 148:9,11 149:20 153:18 154:2,19 155:1 177:11 lot 15:7 77:6 121:7 125:4 180:5 181:5 184:20 185:24 201:25 202:5 205:6 213:3 218:7 244:22 248:8 279:21 280:1 low 40:17 110:20 250:18 lower 278:15 lowest 278:16 lunch 127:17 lying 144:9 m m 13:21,21 90:5 228:17 machine 283:8 machinery 22:23 machines 213:24 magazine 103:18 104:1 134:7 181:17 mail 57:15,17 58:17 60:5 62:13,25 63:6 63:13,14 64:4,7,18 64:20,23 67:10 84:7 103:13,17,21 104:11 128:13,15 128:16 129:2,18,22 130:18 134:24 137:2,17,21 138:7 138:13 139:22 141:1,4 142:8,18,20 143:16 193:23 194:5,15,21 195:2,3 195:23 196:1 199:12,21,21,23 200:5,6 201:7 203:4 203:7,17 204:7,9,16 204:24 205:24 206:3,24 207:7,9,18 208:2,17 209:4 211:14 213:19 214:3,7 215:2 217:5 218:19 220:18,24 222:1,3,6,6 223:9 228:23 233:5 238:24 239:4,14 241:18 242:22 243:7 256:24 257:9 257:21 258:9,16,21 271:13 mails 58:12 84:9,16 136:20 179:2 208:9 208:22 209:4,8 211:2 220:19 228:10,22 229:18 232:8,9 270:24 main 70:4 265:12 maintain 40:16 94:7 219:22 maintained 168:9 maintaining 105:5 213:2 major 22:13 majority 21:23 makers 35:15 183:9 making 40:18 59:21 111:18 123:6 124:2 126:22 171:24 212:4 245:21 248:21 259:18 261:14 malamud 4:16 13:21 38:23 39:4,14 39:22 40:4 63:4,12 135:23 139:1 144:24 145:24 146:6 159:19 160:2 194:23 198:2 207:12 229:4 245:4 246:20 malamud's 139:17 246:24 254:15 malamudomb 207:13 management 35:21 37:9 49:22 115:12 183:24 209:5 271:18 manager 60:1 90:12 243:1 258:4 mandated 232:23 manner 74:18 manufacturers 34:9 march 1:20 2:20 13:1,5 283:22 margaret 85:17 mark 193:17 279:20 marked 5:8 6:4 7:4 8:4 9:4 10:4 11:4 12:13 53:5 56:25 57:11,21 58:8 61:20 63:16 64:15 65:16 67:7 82:9 83:8 84:13 86:3 99:23 103:10 104:2 128:10,24 132:12 134:8 137:13 142:12 193:25 195:20 199:8,16 203:1,9 205:14 206:21 208:6 210:24 220:15 228:6 229:15,22 230:10 232:4 233:2 238:6,8 240:7 242:18 243:3 257:2 257:5 258:6,13 268:12 269:8 270:20 271:4,7 market 110:22 219:18 marketing 85:25 marketplace 74:12 74:20 77:12 166:1,2 167:17 169:3 255:18 martin 1:23 2:20 14:1 17:15 53:3 90:14,17 283:19 mary 67:11 138:10 180:8 232:8 maryland 81:6 102:15 massachusetts 32:9 material 134:15 257:11 materials 1:4,16 2:4 2:16 13:10 40:11,21 40:25 43:17 151:25 281:8 matter 45:9 161:13 189:4 227:10 235:5 matters 15:3 175:5 matthew 3:14 13:19 maureen 64:20 135:1,13 206:24 207:23,24 271:13 mbecker 3:20 mcclung 58:13,18 59:25 60:1 mcclung's 60:7 mckiel 67:11 68:9 138:10 141:1,11 180:8 232:8 Page 26 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [mean - narrative] mean 41:13,14 45:20 46:3,20 72:20 77:5 107:1,20 111:5 114:5 115:22,24 118:2 142:2 179:15 180:2 183:21 211:8 217:6 222:7,9,12,12 223:16 225:23 226:6,12 228:18 234:5,6 271:16 meaning 45:20 means 217:9,11,13 233:23 234:16 266:20 meant 114:23 115:2 115:3 121:7 137:25 180:15 243:14,17 measurable 143:18 144:22 measurement 232:24 mechanism 74:9,19 media 184:21 meet 14:13,16,20 86:21 94:10 110:18 226:15 248:14 meeting 51:7,20 68:5 117:21 182:4,6 182:6 279:4 meetings 15:7,13 24:23 36:22 88:15 89:18 277:13,20 278:25 meets 74:7 megan 28:18 30:13 279:14 member 89:11 95:2 124:16 146:4 187:9 230:1 236:2 246:8 266:3 280:7 281:12 members 21:24 22:6 53:2 55:2 80:24 89:12,14,15 137:20 137:25 138:3,8 148:15,23 153:10 153:15 181:15 182:7,11 183:5 184:8,17 185:17 194:23 209:5 245:10 246:12 261:4 266:2 membership 55:18 55:21,24 56:1,3,7 56:12,19,20 memo 6:15 7:5 84:23 85:3 memory 17:5 52:7 89:6 255:4 mention 32:10 181:17 183:17 237:16,18 mentioned 27:7 40:12 51:21 64:7 102:1 139:21 142:8 167:12 183:4 184:22 196:15 197:6,15 240:3,5 255:12 271:23 281:9 mentioning 123:23 mentions 143:6 182:20 mercury 232:19,25 message 94:12 137:20 182:16 217:2 messaging 183:11 met 14:17,21 86:20 87:4,9,21,25 109:7 109:9 metric 236:25 metrics 237:3,8 mexico 102:5,7 middle 78:9 104:17 137:19,22 138:7 199:13 222:1 232:11 273:10 miller 233:9 234:10 miller's 233:22 mind 88:6 157:20 212:14,20 ministry 74:10 minute 176:22 281:14 minutes 17:25 127:16 190:16 269:6,7 mischaracterizes 27:9 50:21 93:18 109:21 144:10 149:2 248:18 254:19 264:8 misinformed 117:24 misleading 169:23 170:7 171:9,12,17 278:1 misled 148:16,24 misperception 244:13 255:8,17 missed 65:3 mission 4:5 17:7,8 38:7 69:21,23 79:2 96:4 97:14,21 224:8 missions 235:8 misspoke 184:10 mistake 130:24 163:18 164:17 mistakes 165:1 misunderstanding 174:16 254:17 mock 118:19 model 37:1 105:7 116:17 220:11 250:16 251:23 moderated 93:4 moderator 51:15 52:5 modes 256:8 moment 35:25 90:10 167:20 money 155:1 209:18 224:1 225:8,17 264:22 265:4 monitor 13:6 217:12 month 31:9 43:24 277:21,22 months 43:22,22 178:1 278:25 279:1 morella 81:6 morgan 3:4 13:22 60:13 85:13 99:9 100:15,24 101:2 208:11 270:24 morgan's 101:16 morganlewis.com 3:9 morning 13:3 14:9 14:10 morrissey 242:23,25 243:1 270:24 morton 51:19 52:5 motivated 31:16 motivation 117:15 120:9 motivations 95:18 96:16 move 221:6 mto.com 4:9 munger 4:3 municipal 125:23 126:7,11 127:2 musts 234:2 n n 5:1 name 13:3,13 25:11 26:3,4 34:21 52:3,4 61:19 99:9 134:7 192:2,4 213:19 214:2 270:3,8 279:19,20 named 28:17 68:23 names 138:6 nancy 1:23 2:20 14:1 283:19 nara 183:25 narrative 150:22 Page 27 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [national - objection] national 1:5 2:5 13:4 24:17,18 34:9 34:25 48:19,20 49:20 50:1 52:2 72:12 89:3,18 91:5 91:7 95:22 107:16 107:17 121:22 138:20,24 183:25 206:7 232:18 278:2 nature 117:23 navigate 217:12 necessarily 234:23 necessary 100:12 109:13 202:7 210:3 210:18 need 17:13 29:4 33:22 101:1 110:18 119:9 130:5 133:9 150:14,17 151:3 166:4 167:13 170:14 193:1 199:18 200:16,18 205:3,5 230:24 233:17,18 247:23 267:13 needed 111:20 159:5 179:5 needs 94:25 96:15 169:4 negotiate 226:3 negotiated 50:8 223:21 neither 283:13 nerves 254:16 networking 87:14 87:16,17 never 72:9 192:2 236:24 new 38:9 52:3 69:18 69:19,19 99:18 100:15 101:1 123:7 123:9,15 124:8 169:2 175:23 185:2 201:5 256:7 news 17:4 18:10 103:19 181:14 182:1 newsletter 103:22 183:3,4 nfpa 28:14,17 32:3 64:21 66:8 105:15 108:17,20 109:5 111:7,16 112:17 135:14 184:8,11 194:8 199:24 200:9 200:9 201:8 238:25 239:5,15,24 240:5 241:21 242:1 279:8 nfpa's 108:7 111:25 nfta 241:12 nice 78:8 nist 88:12,19 93:6 122:8,12,13,24 123:1,14 126:17 278:2 nitsa 229:13 nods 281:16 non 131:18 188:17 nonprofessional 86:25 nonprofit 77:9 106:4 norm 74:7 111:22 normal 87:18 245:11 northwest 13:8 90:5 noted 284:8 notice 5:9 53:10 79:1 111:23 112:1 124:1,7 127:14 144:22 159:12,21 159:21 164:10 176:9 177:1,4,13,19 283:4 noticed 165:12 notified 159:5 notify 164:18 notifying 161:7 number 5:8 6:4 7:4 8:4 9:4 10:4 11:4 39:8 42:1 48:12 62:15 66:21 70:10 85:5 88:15 100:16 106:5 124:7 146:15 149:21 187:20 194:9,12 206:25 208:10 231:2 252:11 263:16 265:25 268:9 271:14 272:5 276:8 numbers 77:22 125:1 numerous 51:2 77:22 200:20 210:14 nw 2:18 3:6 o o 61:19 o'brien 4:13 13:23 14:22 33:12 85:12 140:16,18 143:7 147:3,13 oakridge 206:7 obama 38:10 object 38:18 46:23 93:19 162:25 171:17,18 173:15 173:16 174:8 207:14 247:5 250:13 266:25 271:20 275:3 objecting 173:20 objection 15:20 16:7 19:8,13 20:3,8,17 20:22 21:22 22:7,16 23:6,13,21 24:3 25:6,24 26:9,20 27:9,21 28:3 29:13 29:25 30:8,14,20 31:13,24 32:6,13,20 32:25 33:7,17 34:2 36:4,13,20 37:15,20 38:14,19,25 39:6,16 40:8 41:10,17,22,25 42:4,11,20 43:4,14 44:2,10,20 45:1,16 49:10 50:12,21 51:9 52:9,16 54:7,18,23 55:10,13,19 56:4,13 56:22 59:4,14,18 61:6,12 62:7 63:1 65:12,24 66:12,17 67:3,23 68:10,21,21 69:15 70:18,23 71:7 71:13,17,23 72:5,16 73:2,20 74:15,23 75:5,13 76:1,9,25 77:17 78:3,19 79:13 79:20 80:1,7,21 81:3,13,23 82:24 87:2,8 91:12,16 92:21 93:2,17 94:20 95:8,16 97:10 98:3 98:11,16 99:2,15 103:4,15,23 104:23 106:2,24 107:5,11 107:21 108:9 109:21 112:2,22 115:4 116:1,10,25 117:13 118:7,25 120:12,21 121:18 122:4 124:14 125:11,25 126:14 127:5,23 129:8,13 130:25 131:24 132:10,24 133:19 134:17 135:4,9,24 136:24 137:5 138:1 138:18 139:2,13,23 140:9,15,20 141:6 142:10 143:3,11 144:2,10,18,25 145:6 146:8,24 147:9,21 148:2,7,12 149:1,9,23 150:7,20 150:20,21,22 152:23 153:3,6,20 Page 28 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [objection - opposing] 154:4,21 155:3,10 155:21 156:13,19 157:5,24 158:10,17 158:22 159:1,8 160:6,15,21,24 161:11,18 163:5,19 163:24 164:6,19 165:2,8,19 166:7,15 166:24 167:4,18 168:1,15 169:9,17 170:2,11,23 171:16 172:4,12 173:3,7,21 175:15 176:4 178:3 178:13 179:18 180:4,17 181:12 182:2 184:18 185:8 185:11,20 186:6,14 186:22 187:6,16,24 189:23 191:16 192:12 196:7,20 197:1,8,19,19 198:4 198:17,23 199:14 201:11,17,23 202:10,19 203:13 203:25 204:10 206:12 207:8,20 208:3,25 209:9,23 210:20 211:16 212:17 213:8 214:22 215:8,24 216:11 217:17,23 218:13 219:14 220:7 222:10 223:3 223:18 224:2,19 225:2,10 226:8,14 227:18 228:12,19 229:8 230:22 231:7 231:13,23 232:14 233:11 234:13 235:4,14 236:5,10 236:15,22 237:4,9 237:21 238:3 239:20 240:1,16 241:5,23 242:7,15 243:15 244:3,10,18 245:14,24 246:9 247:3 248:4,18,23 249:5,22 250:1,10 251:4 252:2,6,16,25 253:11,24 254:5,19 256:2,11 257:12,22 258:19,20 259:3,13 259:21 260:5,22 262:3,13,22 263:7 263:12,18 264:8,16 264:24 265:7,15,19 266:23 267:11 268:4,22 269:3,15 270:10 272:6,14,19 273:1 274:9,24 275:16 276:1,6,12 276:19,22 277:9,25 278:12,23 279:9,18 279:25 280:11 objections 31:2,20 37:25 39:23 40:23 77:18 96:11,22,25 113:10 135:19 151:4,7 152:4,15 154:10 156:1,9,19 162:2,8,19,24 164:12 168:22 173:9,10,13 174:9 174:23 206:19 210:5 216:23 234:20 242:12 251:18 261:21 274:17 objectives 6:17 30:2 observation 171:2 observed 92:11 obvious 104:8 obviously 212:10 247:8 occasion 30:17,25 31:3 86:20 87:22 124:21 184:20 occasionally 89:17 occasions 48:18 88:13,18 occur 149:7 181:22 occurred 17:12 155:8 263:17 october 7:19 69:18 89:9 ofac 214:14 278:3 offers 227:14 office 35:21 37:9 39:18 49:22 50:1 52:3 60:15,22 61:15 61:15 86:20 90:2,3 90:7 101:16,20,22 102:1,4,5,8 183:23 183:24 277:17 278:16 279:15,20 officers 99:8 offices 101:19,25 102:10,18 official 87:9 89:17 116:12,12 148:17 151:25 168:7 236:17 264:13 officials 35:21 39:9 102:13 offset 251:11 oftentimes 260:15 oh 65:3 89:7 151:6 192:11 202:4 okay 23:18,20 25:13 34:5 45:23 46:9,23 47:2 48:9 58:5 63:21 73:14 82:2 93:25 127:16 128:3 131:3 141:20 144:14 148:11 151:9 154:17 177:25 179:4,9 190:1 191:2,24 192:18 199:22 204:5 207:14 238:18,19 239:3,10 250:14 260:25 269:25,25 old 101:2,6 older 168:12,21 169:24,25 170:3,8,9 olson 4:3 omb 38:2,7,16,20 58:1,1 65:21 66:4 66:10,10 95:24 121:4 207:19 omb's 37:14 omitting 198:21 207:11 once 14:18 71:12 86:21,22 87:4,11 108:21 142:2 276:3 one's 239:5 ones 16:8,8 29:21 53:23 89:22 157:12 157:15 235:9 255:11 272:25 ooo 13:2 open 92:13 162:11 219:19 244:21 openness 244:22 268:6 operate 255:20 operated 102:4 121:22 220:11 operating 114:13 operation 113:15 213:12 operations 42:15 55:23 56:9 60:3,7 60:10 99:10 100:21 101:8,9,12 opinion 112:9 172:15 174:5 175:5 212:18 opinions 216:13 opportunities 88:10 88:15 opportunity 32:22 87:7 242:2 opposed 150:23 212:15 213:7 opposing 115:24 Page 29 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [options - people] options 213:4 order 110:18 210:4 215:17 216:4,9 230:2 251:10 264:6 265:5 orders 227:16 organization 5:11 23:12,15 24:16 25:2 25:4,9 26:16,23 27:14 28:6,8,10 51:19 52:12 59:12 62:24 69:13 77:10 87:20 102:12 105:6 106:5 113:12 116:5 135:2 139:17 234:24 278:15 281:9 organizational 7:10 89:11 100:5,8 organizations 26:19 27:12,17 28:20 29:4 29:18,20 33:21 34:8 34:24 36:25 38:5 40:15 41:15 42:16 43:24 62:15 66:22 89:12 94:9,10 97:17 105:14 109:11 111:3,5,12 112:11 116:17 134:25 137:3 235:6 240:2 242:5 278:7 organized 27:19 original 21:15 originally 50:24 178:2 origination 142:18 originator 266:21 origins 267:4 ottawa 48:11 101:22 outcome 69:8 283:15 outdated 124:22 171:6 outlying 91:19 outreach 45:14,16 45:20 46:19,20 50:24 239:25 outside 15:13 45:2 45:21,21 46:7,21,21 47:12,21 48:1 56:5 61:4,10 62:23 130:6 140:3 144:6,7 178:12 193:6 219:8 245:11 255:14 overdoing 218:25 owns 216:18,21 p p 3:13 228:17 p.m. 128:6,7 130:10 130:11 176:16,17 176:19 190:4,5 200:24,25 205:10 205:11 228:2,3 256:18,19 282:5 pace 18:19 21:1 86:7 104:14 128:17,21 145:15 146:16 147:10 148:14,22 149:14 153:8,17 166:10,13,18,21 167:2 176:7 211:3,8 211:19 220:18,24 221:4,17 251:21 252:1,12 270:25 pace's 217:1 218:19 pacific 24:22 page 7:9,16,18,20,23 8:8,12,14,18 9:8 10:11,13,17,19 12:4 12:9,14 83:3 101:4 101:5,8,9 134:16 137:22 138:7 143:2 179:11 208:16 209:13,16 217:14 217:14,15 218:5 229:25 232:12 240:14 269:18,23 270:1 272:5 pager 40:24,24 41:6 pages 1:25 5:10,13 5:15,17,19,21,23 6:6,9,11,14,19,21,23 7:7,12,14 8:6,10,16 8:21,23 9:6,10,12 9:14,16,18,21 10:7 10:9,15,21,23 11:6 11:8,11,14,16,19 207:4,6 238:9 271:7 284:4 paid 43:25 107:25 223:25 pane 217:3 panel 48:10 49:14 49:19 51:16 52:1 89:5,7 90:22,23,24 91:1,3,4 92:9 93:4,9 269:20 panelist 52:1 panelists 93:5 paper 231:11,15 238:16 paragraph 68:9,14 68:15 104:18 218:19 paragraphs 218:23 parallel 126:2 parallels 126:17 park 32:9 part 25:22 27:7 55:3 85:18 91:23 92:3 125:12 182:16 183:11 200:8 228:10 232:17 participant 52:6 participants 54:5 94:24 participate 28:8 96:15 220:20 246:3 266:1 278:14 participated 27:15 28:11,12 131:20 277:5 278:21 participates 266:17 278:11 participating 27:18 96:1,17 97:20 219:24 268:20 269:1 273:6 participation 40:17 66:5 92:18 98:5,19 110:20 250:17 273:4 particular 38:12 93:23 233:25 260:20 261:19 263:11,13 266:21 particularly 113:16 117:22 221:22 particulars 223:20 parties 179:1 227:7 partnership 50:7 parts 137:17 party 188:17 283:14 passed 102:6 116:6 259:5 pathway 73:25 74:3 74:4,13,14,19,22 pause 193:20 200:12 231:22 238:14 240:24 254:13 275:2 pay 43:19 123:12 126:19 266:2 payment 226:3 payments 27:5 265:12,17 peer 163:11 peers 244:23 pending 46:17 pennsylvania 3:6 60:24 101:18,20 people 47:12 60:23 70:3,5 98:23 105:18 105:20 112:10 134:25 152:12 162:11 165:16 186:4,12 216:2 Page 30 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [people - posting] 218:5 234:4 245:21 255:20 267:23 percent 19:24 225:11,12,13,20 percentage 209:17 267:23 perception 117:16 117:25 176:6 perform 123:13 152:1 performance 236:24 237:3,8,11,15,18 238:2 performed 201:9 period 14:17 38:8 43:22 44:16,18 124:5 280:8 permission 74:22 257:1,10 258:10 permissions 258:1 person 43:15 47:21 48:7 52:5,7,12,22 56:1,11 59:3 61:18 76:15 80:18 101:23 213:22 216:8 245:19 275:19 278:16 personal 15:10,17 23:22 54:10 187:18 212:18 personally 114:7 163:1 174:4 204:20 254:8 279:10,13 personnel 241:12,21 persons 46:21 47:25 48:6 55:7 85:9 135:17 137:3 164:16 178:12 183:16 206:25 208:2,10 214:11,20 268:19,25 275:15 perspective 173:5 pertain 133:3,16,17 239:17 pertaining 238:2 pertains 63:15 150:15,18 201:8 peter 89:5 105:19 121:3 petre 58:13,20 61:2 84:16 129:2 195:24 196:2 229:19 258:16 259:7 260:18 275:22 276:10 278:20 petroleum 111:8 132:8 phantom 239:9 phil 85:15 100:25 208:17,18,20 218:24 219:1,1,2 228:23 229:1 phmsa 228:16,16 229:4 phone 18:16 103:8 phrased 122:6 pick 70:13 73:15,16 picked 194:23 piece 41:6 261:6 262:18 pieces 41:4,8,14 42:19 43:3 238:16 pimsa 113:13 pipelines 113:16,17 117:19 pirg 34:19 place 127:21 160:4 166:5 167:15 179:21,21 183:15 245:17 283:4 placed 123:8 placing 262:18 plaintiff 46:21 47:13 178:12 plaintiff's 47:21,22 plaintiffs 1:8 2:8 3:3 45:21 48:1 178:11 planning 115:11 152:20 play 98:20 152:6,11 245:2 played 219:17 playing 224:6 plays 162:12 please 13:16 14:1 30:23 35:16 47:9 58:3 63:23 69:22 73:11 79:11 81:11 83:11,13 94:18 120:19 136:11 150:16 168:10 171:4 173:6 190:9 194:8 197:3 201:4 205:18 206:23 207:5 211:14 248:22 249:7 260:3 271:24 272:3 273:11 pleased 218:1,6 221:19 235:12 236:20 plus 77:18 96:11 242:15 251:18 261:21 265:19 point 6:13 104:14 127:15 141:2 142:20 143:24 146:19 159:25 163:10 171:23 210:14 214:4 221:23 226:25 235:7 239:7 262:16 pointed 108:16 237:24 pointing 93:8 points 218:24 274:1 policies 55:3,7 215:4 232:1 253:7 256:25 policy 21:18 23:8 24:18 31:11 35:14 36:11 48:19 52:15 54:25 60:16 74:6 89:18 90:9,12,15 106:23 107:1 123:25 183:9 185:24 215:13 231:15 235:5 280:3 political 22:13 31:11 poor 254:22 popular 182:23 portal 223:5,9 portion 140:1 203:17 270:7 posed 66:4 232:20 position 23:11 71:10 98:24 113:1,5 116:12 125:21 173:25 174:6,10,14 174:17,18,19 236:17 248:9 positioned 111:21 positions 22:19 24:15 81:2 125:19 175:7 possessed 132:22 possession 154:25 167:8 possibilities 149:18 possibility 28:23 possible 94:14 97:17 123:3,19 124:6 160:3 186:5,12 217:19 256:7,14 262:6 263:9 281:7 possibly 85:21 87:12 113:22 114:5 115:19 229:12 post 86:9 99:12 169:7,15 172:25 195:5,8,10,13 posted 111:3 157:3 167:23 168:13,21 169:20 170:22 174:3,21 175:12 176:2 198:3 posting 143:17 155:16 156:17,25 157:23 158:16 160:19 161:2 Page 31 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [posting - protected] 194:22 197:17 posts 172:11 173:1 potential 86:18 97:4 97:5 113:18,21 114:4 117:6 120:8 166:3,6,14,18,22 167:3,8,12 203:23 240:22 potentially 113:1 242:15 power 6:13 239:7 practice 169:4,15 practices 92:11 224:17 precluded 113:3 preferred 266:14 prelude 154:14,15 preparation 18:15 129:17,18,23 142:23 prepare 14:14 16:15 21:4 41:7 67:19 147:6 prepared 18:22 53:13 82:15,21 84:3 202:17,22 281:7 preparing 49:23 presence 97:25 98:25 167:22 168:20 175:10 176:1 present 4:12 13:15 179:4 presentation 51:2,4 82:23 83:5 91:18 239:7 269:19,21,22 269:23 270:4,9,19 presentations 93:23 presented 92:10 presenting 51:16 preserve 110:18 159:6 177:2,16 preserving 110:17 president 4:13 18:16 21:18 32:8 33:12 56:8 57:19 60:6,9,12 67:11 84:2 85:12,13,14,15 85:19,20,20,25 99:13,20 100:16,21 145:8,14 165:22 182:20 205:25 207:25 208:20 218:21 presidents 85:7,7 press 181:3,10,25 186:19,23,24,25 187:3,9,13 presumably 267:18 presume 264:20 pretty 104:7,7 231:8 273:25 prevent 214:16 previous 20:16 50:22 71:18 77:18 83:23 120:7 previously 51:10 102:1 183:8 227:1 245:23 price 210:13 221:23 222:17,18 226:24 227:2 prices 224:17 pricing 224:20 pride 235:24 principles 94:11 print 221:22 222:17 223:1,9,16 printed 40:25 prior 76:11 81:15,17 priorities 112:19 113:8 120:15,24 127:11,20,22 priority 121:10 private 21:24,25 91:20,24 92:4 98:6 privilege 49:3 131:5 131:10,13,15,21 189:24 198:22 200:19 privileged 46:5 134:19 142:1 192:19 199:4 204:13 281:3 privy 37:17 probably 15:14 33:8 53:2 70:9 86:15 91:8 99:9 108:14 111:13 146:11 269:20 280:2 problem 78:15 117:1 172:22,25 176:7 218:17 problematic 172:21 173:4,15 proceedings 193:20 200:12 231:22 238:14 240:24 254:13 275:2 process 22:2 40:15 42:13 43:8 54:5 65:21 69:3 92:14,19 92:23,25 94:24 96:17 97:20 98:1,7 99:6 124:2 151:13 161:21 162:10,11 163:9,10,12,13 164:23 219:19,25 234:3,6 244:23 245:2,5,11 246:3 251:2 253:16,22 254:3 255:15,21,25 263:2,21 264:6 265:6 267:4,21 268:7,21 269:2 273:23 274:22 produce 20:23 produced 40:10 64:18 65:19 132:21 145:12 178:22 179:2 199:25 238:23 256:23 product 16:16 73:22 74:6,9,11,20 75:3 75:15,17,19 131:18 188:19 198:22 production 12:8 200:21 products 151:25 243:2 professionally 86:22 87:5 professor 105:19 proficiency 266:16 profitable 209:18 program 83:2 89:13 266:14,16 programs 85:15 266:11 project 26:24 142:17 232:16 247:12 272:8,11,13 272:16,18 projects 219:5,6 promote 17:8 94:14 256:1 promoted 60:9 101:5 promoting 107:3 prompted 37:14 proofread 163:4 proper 219:23 properly 151:19 property 152:9 155:7 158:9,15 159:7 160:20 proposal 30:3 239:6 proposals 199:25 202:18 propose 29:17 proposed 79:1 124:1 124:8 126:22 proposing 124:22 234:12 propounded 284:7 protect 17:10 110:22 114:12 131:8 161:7 248:13 protected 230:19 Page 32 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [protecting - question] protecting 17:9 152:11 protection 1:5 2:5 67:12 188:18 proud 185:21 186:3 218:4 219:16 proven 141:3 provide 32:22,24 33:3 105:16 110:12 110:21 111:10 113:2 121:23 124:10 131:4 150:5 150:7 169:23 212:5 214:5 217:25 221:20 267:8 268:25 269:21 provided 15:21 32:19 39:9 43:10,10 51:12 108:17 112:15 166:5 167:14 223:11 265:4 267:25 provides 38:3 226:20 264:14 providing 40:17 59:8,19 105:2 110:2 110:16,24 111:4 212:14,25 213:6,25 214:7 226:16 247:10 248:11 provision 112:24 113:17 215:22 provisions 115:24 116:9,24 117:12 118:3,24 120:2 public 7:22 11:13 21:25 22:13 25:15 26:23 29:10 30:4 32:8,16 34:18 40:4 40:6 42:13,18,24 43:7,8 44:6,11,17 44:18,24 45:14 46:18 47:1,4,5,6,10 47:16 50:24 60:16 79:3,5 88:10,19 90:9 91:20,24 92:4 98:6 105:3 106:11 107:8,15,20 108:3,8 108:17 110:13,16 110:23 111:19 112:12 113:2,25 114:18 115:22,25 116:8,23 117:17 118:3,23 120:1,17 120:21 121:5,11,24 122:22 124:4,4 129:25 135:23 136:6 144:24 145:10,25 146:7,15 148:15,24 149:13 149:16 151:16,22 152:22 153:10,15 160:2,10,18,23 161:4,7,7 164:18 167:24 168:14,21 169:1,6,10,14,24 170:22 172:22,23 172:25 173:2 180:16 182:9 183:10 184:8,16,21 184:23 185:17 186:20 187:14,22 188:10 189:8 190:18,21 191:1,15 192:6,8 198:2 202:1 202:1,5,6 208:24 210:12 212:25,25 214:1 217:25 219:10 221:21 223:2,8,25 225:25 226:10 230:2 241:4 246:8,13,21,24 247:10,18,25 248:11 249:2 250:7 250:9,23 252:15 264:15 275:12,24 276:10,18 277:23 280:19 public.resource.o 13:10 public.resource.org 1:10 2:10 4:16 13:20 publication 123:24 134:4 publications 18:17 19:3,7,12,25 106:13 108:2 128:21 145:9 145:14 165:22 225:13 publicly 16:3 45:18 45:25 46:3 48:6 121:15 publish 173:2 published 93:13 103:22 123:7 182:14 246:21 publishes 164:15 pull 213:24 purchase 226:23 231:11,19 purchased 210:16 purchaser 230:24 purchases 231:5 purchasing 225:5 232:2 purely 147:5 purports 163:16 purpose 69:12,12,24 79:8 189:13 213:20 214:9 217:24 272:3 272:4 purposes 21:6 93:16 94:5,15 95:7,13 96:7,10,21 97:7 141:15 177:17 179:5 276:21 pursuant 283:3 pursue 274:2 pursuing 272:23,25 pushed 178:1 put 30:4 68:25 101:2 108:4,4 113:1 113:5,25 115:21 121:10 124:4 127:12 137:2 146:15 149:13 151:15 153:17 222:25 228:15 229:12 247:14 putting 145:9 199:20 219:20 220:4 222:16 223:15 q quality 110:22 151:11,13 157:13 161:21 162:10,13 219:18 255:21 quantify 70:11 147:24 148:4,6 question 21:8 24:1 30:22 37:7 39:20 44:22 46:17,18 47:19,20 50:23 51:5 53:15 57:7 58:4 63:24 75:12 76:11 76:12,13,19,20 77:14 78:7 79:10 89:8 92:2 95:13 96:6 98:24 106:4 109:16 113:7 114:20 116:3,22,23 117:1 118:9,10,18 118:23 119:5,7,12 119:14 120:3,18 122:6 127:1,13 131:2 132:6 133:6 135:25 136:3,15 137:6 144:13,15 150:24 154:14 172:18 173:17,23 175:18,23 188:24 189:1 190:8,12,17 190:18,22,23 191:3 191:4,5 197:3,11 198:16,20,24 199:2 201:3,5 204:1,12 212:18 221:7,10,14 Page 33 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [question - recommendations] 225:6,16 226:6,12 236:4,9 239:11 246:11 247:6 248:17,22 249:1 251:15,15 257:19 261:18,18 268:9 273:9,12,14,19 277:1 questioned 48:14 questioner 198:9 questioning 189:25 questions 12:13 26:5 33:20 36:24 37:3,10 48:21 49:1 54:2 66:4 78:10,11 78:14 93:12 118:20 127:11 130:15,23 175:20 179:5,7 191:10 203:16 233:19 281:18,23 281:24,25 284:6 quick 157:9 193:22 quinn 60:14,15 64:4 90:8 233:6 279:1 quite 50:17 66:23 86:23 87:1,6,12 109:15 124:23 quotation 209:14 quote 34:3 93:21 quotes 93:22 r r 13:10 283:1 radical 193:11 raise 29:5 33:22 36:11,16 raises 255:16 raising 36:23 211:19 randy 281:11,12 rarely 125:19 278:14 reach 244:24 263:24 read 58:3 63:20 66:21,23 79:10,12 94:18,19 95:12 104:6 114:20 120:18,20 123:19 123:20 133:5 150:25 151:2,8 172:6 190:8,10 194:8 201:3 216:16 217:14,15 218:1,5 218:16 247:11 254:21 255:2,5,6 260:2,4 270:13 271:3 273:9,14,21 284:4 reading 9:20 93:19 93:20 104:21,22 105:23 110:2,8,25 111:17,25 112:21 113:9 121:1 122:11 122:13,19,20,24 123:3,9,10,11 127:12,21 158:4 179:12,20,25 180:3 180:6,11,15,15,25 181:4,11,21,25 182:10,18 183:11 183:19 184:15 185:19,21 186:21 187:15 202:3 208:23 211:10,20 211:22,23 212:2,8,9 212:15 213:12,15 213:18 214:11,21 215:1,17 216:10 217:3,22,25 218:2,8 218:12,16 219:9,20 220:4 230:3,7 247:13 248:7 264:14 reads 273:19 real 17:14,14,20 114:8 151:20 205:4 210:7,10 really 46:8 99:6 154:5 157:19 158:14,21 159:25 244:2 273:22 reason 31:16,19,21 36:16 37:13,18,19 38:12 204:5,8 205:4 214:2 216:7 reasonable 40:18 108:3 112:14 149:15 214:15 221:23 224:9 reasonably 108:13 121:7 reasons 262:6 recall 16:23 18:8 19:5,9,20 20:24 21:2,10 24:25 26:3 27:14,17 28:19,24 29:1,11,20,22 30:9 31:3,5,9,15,25 32:2 32:4 33:1,4,4,18 35:24 36:14 37:6 39:17 43:5 48:9,18 48:24,25 49:7,12 52:3,12 61:25 66:14 66:18,20 67:1,20,21 71:10,12 87:24 88:8 88:9,11,24,25 89:3 89:21,24 90:1,21 91:1,9,18 93:4,9,12 102:25 103:7 111:11 116:11,19 117:14 129:20 132:15,19 136:14 137:12 145:22 146:18 166:12,13 166:16 177:20,22 177:23 181:5,23 183:14 184:4,19,22 185:1,3 187:13 190:21 195:10,12 195:15 213:9 214:23 215:23 216:2 239:14 241:9 241:11 242:9,17 245:7 252:3,5,9,11 254:18 255:11 261:11 262:8 263:11,13 278:3,22 278:24 279:5 receipt 56:20 receive 23:2,4 177:4 177:13 181:16 266:12 received 142:18 177:1,19 185:24 194:18 195:23 200:5 202:24 218:7 222:15 242:22 264:18,22,25 receiving 48:7 55:17 56:2 239:14 recess 18:3 46:12 82:5 128:6 130:10 176:16 190:4 200:24 205:10 228:2 256:18 recipient 84:8 211:13,14 recipients 211:4 recognition 187:9 recognize 53:9 57:4 63:19 64:1 74:19 82:14,18,20 83:16 83:18 103:13,16 134:11 138:6 199:11 200:1,3 207:17 240:10 269:11 271:11 recognized 29:4 33:21 259:7 recollection 26:1 27:11 66:16 82:25 93:10 107:24 142:21 176:24 192:18 203:8 215:3 270:6,17 recommendation 125:9 recommendations 64:11,12 86:19 209:6 Page 34 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [recommending - remind] recommending 212:3 213:3 record 13:17 17:24 18:2,6 46:9,10,14 47:9 79:12 82:3,8 94:19 120:20 128:4 128:8 130:7,8,13 151:2,8 176:14,18 190:2,6,10 193:18 194:8,12 200:22 201:1 205:7,8,12 227:25 228:5 255:6 256:17,20 260:4 273:21 282:3 283:12 recorded 283:8 records 50:1 131:5 184:1 207:19 recoup 222:22 recyclable 70:9 redacted 130:17 136:9 176:23 240:14,18 redaction 136:16 137:4 refer 21:21 22:4 74:3 85:4,10 129:7 138:19 161:14 208:22 218:21 219:1 221:3,13 228:22 232:12 reference 11:12 31:12 36:12,15 40:5 44:9 64:13 70:17 72:9,11,25 73:5,9 73:13,15,19,23,25 74:1,14,18 75:11,13 75:16,21 77:7,8,21 77:21 86:19 97:2,9 102:16 104:19 105:4 121:6,13,17 121:25 122:16,17 122:17 123:8,18 124:13,19 125:4,10 125:18,24 126:3,4,8 126:12,13 127:3,4 refers 22:5 83:25 133:4,18,24 137:25 139:9 143:10 140:8 169:8,16,21 reflect 42:15 69:5 170:1,10,19 179:23 97:21 270:8 182:12 209:14 reflected 270:1 213:1 219:11,21 refresh 17:5 93:10 224:14,18,22 225:1 176:24 255:4 227:3,15,17 228:16 refreshed 89:6 229:4,13 230:3,8 refreshing 69:11 231:19,20 232:2,3 refrigerating 1:7 232:13,23 233:1 2:7 235:3,13,18 236:21 refuse 47:15 237:17,20 246:23 regarding 40:4,4,5 247:1,11,19 248:2 46:4 65:20 66:10 248:12 249:3 250:8 130:15 131:9 250:25 256:10 138:14,25 139:21 259:12,19 260:1 150:8 189:22 198:7 261:2,6 262:2,8,12 200:10 207:19 264:7 267:10,15 209:5 227:7 240:21 268:3 256:24 257:10 referenced 113:12 260:21 261:19 125:1 232:25 281:8 register 50:2 123:20 references 203:14 123:22 183:25 259:7 213:14,17 214:25 referencing 124:25 regular 123:20 126:23 141:11 regulates 113:15 171:20 193:13 regulation 24:9 238:4 71:22 72:15 73:1 referred 33:25 78:18 79:4,5,8 42:25 43:3 67:22 263:6,25 68:7 83:2 89:2 regulations 6:12 91:25 92:5 95:5 59:20 75:18,22,25 101:20 109:4 76:24 77:6,16 78:1 113:17 130:15 78:2,5 79:22 80:5 138:13 198:12 105:5 121:25 126:5 234:1 239:18,18 171:1 255:9 259:6 regulatory 58:25 referring 25:14 27:2 64:14 93:16 94:5,15 33:25 42:24 49:17 94:25,25 95:6,13,18 51:20,25 63:13 96:6,10,20 97:7 67:24 86:9 92:19 170:25 95:9 109:20 110:25 rehn 4:4 194:7,7,11 114:24 138:3 217:8 281:25 234:7 246:20 reiterate 245:10 267:13 relate 65:9 136:1 239:23 251:14 related 1:12 2:12 42:22 44:8 48:13 51:8 73:16 75:18 87:12 88:13 102:16 109:25 243:2 266:18 relates 133:10 141:18 relating 27:16 31:11 45:15 46:19 50:24 51:6 115:24 255:13 relation 56:17 139:1 277:16 relations 42:24 44:6 44:7,17,18,24 45:14 46:19 50:24 130:1 139:19 140:4,8,10 140:14,19,23 142:4 142:9 183:10 239:24 relationship 87:18 133:22 165:17 221:19 223:7,20 relayed 178:11 233:9 release 187:1 releases 186:19,24 186:24 187:3,9,13 relevance 41:7 relevant 38:7 48:12 49:8,10,16,17 50:11 50:12,19 51:2,3,4 110:22 131:16 219:18 relied 235:25 rely 123:13 157:13 relying 110:13 remaining 270:7 remember 82:16 93:21 145:17 173:9 191:22 278:13 remind 25:17 Page 35 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [remotely - reviewed] remotely 13:16 remove 232:19 removing 237:12 remuneration 226:17,20 renewals 56:21 renewed 195:9 repeat 53:20 63:23 92:2 133:14 170:5 197:3 rephrase 120:23 replace 130:17 replicated 162:14 replied 243:23 replying 233:22 report 59:23 60:11 60:18,25 61:2,4,10 80:20 100:20,24 182:13 209:15 reported 1:22 50:5 84:17 129:3 reporter 13:25 17:15 53:3 90:14,17 184:23,25 185:2,4 194:11 reporting 100:17 reports 16:3 17:1 18:10 56:8,12 60:12 60:20,25 61:14 146:16 represent 87:10 239:8 269:13 representation 136:4 209:21 representative 14:24 15:2 21:16 28:17 52:25 59:13 62:3,6 102:5 141:15 150:4 153:5,25 representatives 22:18 28:14 29:3 33:21 34:15 35:18 48:13 49:16 51:21 51:24 53:1 92:23 108:20 109:10 278:7 represented 248:8,9 263:3 representing 13:19 represents 88:21 272:8 reproduced 159:14 reps 273:5 republic 185:2 reputation 151:21 164:25 165:6,13 request 12:8 16:12 30:3 86:20 188:1,13 199:25 202:17 256:25 257:10 258:10 260:19,20 261:18 280:13 requested 33:5 49:9 require 126:18 134:18 137:4,7 178:4 193:10 215:6 218:5 required 54:12 requirements 80:5 requires 188:11 requiring 214:2 216:2 research 34:18,24 108:1 reserve 136:14 271:3 resource 35:2 40:4 121:19 135:23 136:6 144:24 145:25 146:7 152:22 160:2,10,18 160:23 161:8 167:24 168:14,21 169:6 170:22 172:22,25 173:2 192:8 198:2 241:4 275:12,25 276:11 277:23 280:19 resource's 169:10 169:15 187:23 188:10 189:8 190:18,21 191:1,15 192:6 276:18 resources 180:6 211:21 respect 15:2 19:12 26:18 27:20 29:2,12 29:23 32:5 36:2 48:3 49:3 50:19 53:16 65:10 111:16 173:15 189:9,24 196:17 221:4 235:8 281:2 respected 235:19 respective 28:20 66:10 respond 118:9 responders 111:20 221:22 222:21 224:7 responding 49:1 53:21 258:9 response 53:19 62:5 62:18,18,22 66:3 198:16,20 228:25 229:7 256:25 responsibilities 100:23 responsibility 99:22 responsible 54:15 60:21,22 79:3,17 85:6 104:20,22 258:1 280:3 responsive 47:17 131:16 276:25 rest 238:18 restate 30:22 177:10 197:11 204:22 restaurant 277:13 restrictions 214:14 214:19 278:4 result 241:6 resulted 123:24 resulting 108:2 158:15 results 92:14 retain 202:7,9,14 retained 26:8,12 36:3 44:25 131:22 132:9 202:16 retaining 29:24 248:12 retention 132:1 239:17 retentions 132:4 retreat 67:25 return 5:11 reveal 16:16 132:1 revenue 19:3,7,12 19:25 20:14,15,16 20:20 57:5 145:10 145:24 146:6 225:11,12,20 265:22,24 266:19 revenues 18:22 144:4 153:18 154:2 154:19 review 15:9,19,23 16:2,6 17:2 18:21 19:2,6 33:6,16 37:9 37:14 38:21 82:16 86:18 113:25 115:22 121:5 122:22 124:4,5 129:18 142:23 163:11 213:3 reviewed 15:7 16:11 16:13,15,18 17:1 18:9 33:4 57:8 58:6 58:15 61:24 63:22 63:24 66:2 67:14,18 82:17 83:14,17 84:11,19,24 100:2 104:9 128:18 129:4 129:22,24 132:17 133:7,12 134:12 142:16,19 194:2,6 195:25 200:2,17 208:13 211:5 220:21 230:14 Page 36 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [reviewed - scope] 238:10,20 240:11 243:9 258:11,18 270:15 271:9 reviewing 15:12 183:1 198:11 200:15 reviews 163:15 237:15,18 revise 49:23 69:7,7 revised 38:2,8 169:2 267:19 revising 267:21 revision 268:20 269:1 rfp 32:17,19 201:19 202:15 ridiculous 273:18 right 17:3,16 24:22 30:1 31:7 38:1 45:10 62:11 66:11 67:1 68:16 74:16 76:16 88:25 95:11 98:17 101:7 104:13 105:2 110:10 111:1 116:11 118:11 136:14 159:22 160:5 176:13 178:21 185:7 186:5 189:1 190:16 192:3 193:7 207:7 212:25 222:1 227:11 229:2 229:6,11 233:13 255:2 266:9 271:3 281:15 rights 55:9 rigorous 161:21 162:9 163:9 255:21 risk 151:20 rmr 1:23 2:21 283:19 rob 143:13 robert 28:17 robust 94:7 151:12 roger 205:25 206:3 role 17:8 60:8 98:20 115:7 139:19 141:14 152:6,11 162:12 208:19 219:17 224:6 roles 62:12 room 9:20 13:16 70:6 104:21,22 105:23 110:3,8,25 111:17,25 112:21 113:9 121:1 122:11 122:13,19,20,24 123:3,9,10,12 127:12,21 179:12 179:20,25 180:3,6 180:12,15,16,25 181:4,11,21,25 182:10,18 183:11 183:20 184:15 185:19,22 186:21 187:15 208:23 211:10,20,22,23 212:2,8,9,16 213:12 213:15,18 214:11 214:21 215:1,17 216:10 217:22,25 218:2,8,12,16 219:9 219:20 220:5 230:4 230:7 247:13 248:7 264:14 roughly 19:16 176:24 rows 151:18 rubel 14:21 rule 1:15 2:15 123:6 123:7,23 124:2,5 126:22 rule's 124:8 rulemaking 79:1 124:8 rulemakings 113:4 123:16 rules 59:20 268:25 run 205:4 266:16 running 180:12 247:13 266:14 s s 5:6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 85:22,23 143:9 228:17 safe 74:11 97:16 113:15 safely 114:13 117:20 safety 17:11 73:16 73:22 74:1,6,10 75:3,15,17,19 113:15 152:7 159:6 243:2 sale 19:3 225:13,14 225:21,23 226:6 251:22 sales 18:17 19:17,22 19:25 85:25 145:8 145:14 148:9,11,19 149:6,18,21 153:11 165:22 221:18 223:21 225:24,25 226:10,12 san 3:17 4:7 sara 61:19 sarah 58:13,18,20 61:2 84:16 129:2 195:24 196:2 229:19 258:16 259:6 275:22 278:20 save 223:9 saying 16:25 42:18 45:17 126:22 137:20 139:9 140:7 180:11 200:6 207:9 229:3 234:10 257:19 264:5,11 says 141:2 217:2 218:20,23 220:24 233:16,16 scale 274:6 scaled 273:24 274:13,15 scholars 121:3 science 22:13 23:7 34:25 81:25 107:15 107:17 123:12 scientific 23:4 scientist 23:8 scope 34:11 45:2 54:8 55:14,20 56:5 56:13,23 59:5 63:2 65:25 67:4 94:21 97:11 99:16 102:17 103:5,23 107:22 108:10 130:2 132:25 135:10 140:4,21 141:23 156:3 157:5,25 158:11,18 159:8 160:7,25 161:12,18 163:25 164:7,20 165:3 174:7 186:7 187:6,16 188:4 192:13 196:21,22 197:20 198:5 201:11,18,23 202:11,19 206:13 208:4 209:24 210:21 211:17 212:21 215:9 219:15 220:8 224:3 228:19 229:8 237:4 237:9,21 241:23 242:8 243:16 244:3 244:10 245:15,24 246:10 247:4 250:2 250:11,12 252:17 253:1,12,25 254:6 254:20 256:2,11 257:13,15 260:6,22 262:3,22 263:7,19 268:4 269:16 270:11 272:6,15,19 274:9 275:16 276:1 276:12,23 279:9,18 Page 37 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [scope - somebody] 280:22 281:4 scott 91:7 93:5 233:10 241:14,14 270:2 scroll 217:3,10,13 218:5 scrolling 217:16 sdo 25:2 239:6,6 241:16 sdo's 109:10 sdoawareness.org 25:12 sdos 116:20 242:1 search 123:22 126:18 226:21 seat 92:15 second 21:16 162:25 177:6 208:12,16 218:19 231:21 240:23 275:1 278:13 secret 242:4 secretary 143:13 sections 53:21 sector 21:24 security 221:20 222:14,20 see 46:7 59:7 68:11 86:22 87:5,12 94:9 97:18 100:19 104:13 105:12,14 123:23 124:17,19 131:10 136:7 137:19,22 138:15 138:16 143:18,20 154:5,8 179:10 188:18 198:12 209:19 212:3 217:1 217:4,5,12 221:1 235:17 241:14,18 262:7 263:3,24 seeing 66:20 137:24 195:5 215:23 seen 61:23,25 67:13 77:5 88:1,13,17,18 88:22 89:21 100:1,8 104:5 124:23 132:15,19 137:16 142:15 151:17,18 169:20 205:21 segment 104:14 select 15:15,16 selected 15:17,18 16:8 selection 201:14 sell 251:9 265:21 selling 74:19 senate 35:18 259:6 send 204:16,24 senior 7:5 56:11 67:25 68:4 84:23 85:3,8,18,19 105:1 146:4 209:5 271:14 sense 125:5 247:23 sensenbrenner 81:16 sensitive 152:10 sent 137:18,19 183:18 193:23 199:12 203:4 204:21 209:4 sentence 68:8,16 143:17 144:1,17 203:15 209:15 211:9 separate 17:21 201:19 232:1 separately 210:16 sequence 191:10 series 208:9 211:2 228:9 270:23 serious 192:23 serve 24:17 79:8 served 24:9,20 81:19 105:7,20 138:4 220:12 serves 62:11 106:5 service 57:5 123:13 126:20 215:17,21 services 13:4 serving 48:19 99:19 99:20 session 51:16 set 17:20,23 180:22 setting 146:19 243:25 244:16 seven 111:25 281:14 shalls 233:25 shape 42:15 shaping 34:7 share 15:24 171:1 246:4,14 shared 66:9 sharing 66:14,18 278:4 sharon 52:19 she'll 99:20 sheet 238:17 284:9 short 17:13 78:8 95:12 104:7 205:3,5 271:17 shortcomings 253:21 254:2 shorthand 283:9 shoulds 233:24 show 82:23 117:23 141:19 142:14 192:25 193:1,4,5 229:24 showing 258:8 shown 201:6 242:20 256:22 shows 192:24 sic 13:10 side 15:24 82:13 sided 82:12 sign 271:3 signature 283:18 284:12 signed 116:13,18 significance 20:1 114:15 235:16 significant 36:16,19 112:16 115:10 157:10,12,15,19,22 158:4,6 227:12 237:25 significantly 98:21 signifies 235:20 signify 235:18 similar 110:5 simple 111:1 simply 100:22 209:19 261:8 singapore 24:23 74:6 single 31:16 88:24 127:8 sir 17:15 sit 195:17 196:14 site 223:5 sitting 33:14 situation 114:16 six 181:16 skeptical 162:14 slides 93:23 slight 19:23 slightly 100:11 small 109:8 209:17 266:12 smith 56:9,16 60:4,5 85:21 101:3 smith's 60:8 socialization 115:11 socialize 110:6,15 society 1:3,6,16 2:3 2:6,16 13:9 48:11 49:15 106:5 152:12 219:17 220:12 sole 211:13 solely 270:4 soliciting 201:9 solution 248:11 solutions 2:18 111:2 somebody 29:22 159:5 170:17 215:16,19 216:6 230:20 255:19 Page 38 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [somo - standard] somo 4:18 13:4 son 85:23 soon 78:13 160:3 227:21 sorry 17:24 24:10 31:9 61:13 65:3 68:11 83:11 89:4 90:15 91:8 92:1 109:17 128:14 133:13 149:25 151:3 155:14 159:16 170:4 172:10 178:21 181:20,23 183:17 183:18 184:3 185:1 185:3,12 188:14 191:18,20 192:11 193:19 204:21 205:2 210:18 222:21 225:4 235:6 239:3,12 247:24 257:18 271:16 272:10 280:4 sort 125:8 252:10 256:16 sounded 119:19 sounds 91:3 93:25 148:22 216:5 225:24 source 37:6 168:23 194:20 195:13,16 265:22 266:18 sources 19:3 187:22 189:2 191:1,15 192:6 265:24 266:7 speak 25:13 41:3 70:12 75:1 89:14 94:1 102:23 103:3 185:25 238:4 242:2 253:2 speaker 269:19 speaking 102:25 103:8 236:12,14 273:18 speaks 133:20 182:25 208:25 209:9 232:15 233:11,15 234:13 235:15 259:3 specific 35:22 37:6 37:10 38:7 67:16 73:16 77:8,21 98:13 113:2,12 116:13 125:20 146:1 230:25 255:10 261:5 263:5 267:5 274:13 281:7 specifically 18:12 33:5 37:22 48:24 54:20 123:1 177:22 181:20 222:7 264:17 specifications 253:17 specifics 91:18 183:1 245:7 speculate 25:18 42:5 134:6 138:2 143:12 217:11 224:5 speculating 52:4 72:19 80:3 129:9 147:5 148:8 162:3 179:16 180:10 187:8 195:19 211:12 229:11 234:15 241:13 speculation 25:7 26:10,21 28:4 30:14 30:21 31:14,24 32:13,20,25 33:7,17 36:5,21 37:21 38:19 40:9 42:11 43:14 44:20 45:1 52:17 54:7,24 55:14,19 56:4,22 59:4 62:7 63:2 65:13,25 66:13 67:3,23 68:10 70:18 70:25 71:7,25 73:20 76:1 79:14 80:7 93:17 94:20 95:17 97:10 98:16 99:2,15 103:4 104:24 112:6 129:8 132:10,24 134:17 135:10 136:24 137:5 138:1 138:18 139:2,13 140:9,15,20 141:6 142:10 143:4,11 144:2,18 153:3 155:11,22 157:6 158:10,18 159:9 160:6,25 161:11,19 163:19 164:19 169:9,18 170:23 172:12 173:17 187:7 197:20 198:5 202:10,20 206:13 208:3 209:24 210:21 217:18 219:14 220:6,9 224:4 231:7 234:14 240:16 241:24 243:15 247:4 250:2 252:17 253:1,12,24 254:5 256:3,12 257:12 260:6 262:23 263:20 265:7 269:16 270:10 272:7 275:17 276:13,22 speech 248:21 spelled 228:17 spend 15:12 80:13 spent 148:14 spoke 89:6,7 90:25 103:7 sponsored 88:20 89:1 107:9,12 sponsors 88:14 spur 244:1,17,19 squiggly 137:21 staff 7:6 35:17 55:1 55:2,22 60:1 67:25 68:4 69:9 80:16,17 84:23 85:3,5,8,18 103:2,6 105:1 110:15 111:2 115:12 116:14 117:5 124:16 146:4 148:18 162:12 163:14 223:22 225:24,25 226:10 243:1 258:4,22,22 271:14 272:9 275:23 staffer 259:9 stakeholder 35:12 88:10 244:24 250:18 stakeholders 29:6 33:24 34:1,6,12 35:13 36:1 37:4 38:24 39:5,14,22 40:12 41:16 88:10 88:19 92:12 114:9 114:14 151:23 181:15 182:7,11,17 183:5,9 184:9,17 185:18 219:24 220:13 236:1 248:15 standard 37:12 70:13 71:6,16 72:12 73:13,16,19 74:8 75:20 117:22,23 122:17,18 123:8,9 124:4,12,18,20,21 124:23,25 125:10 126:8 152:20 162:17 163:11,15 164:16,18 165:1 168:7,13 169:2,24 169:25 170:8,18,18 170:19,21 171:5,8 171:25 172:3 217:14,15 224:21 224:25 225:6 226:22 227:3 234:5 234:11,19,22,23 Page 39 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [standard - strike] 237:24 245:8,11 246:6 255:10,16 257:11 259:15,20 259:25 261:5 262:18,25 263:3,25 standardization 17:4 18:10 94:8,12 94:24 103:19 181:14 182:1 standards 1:16 2:16 6:12 11:10 17:10 24:10,17 25:16 26:19 29:6 31:12 33:23 36:8,24 37:10 37:11 38:5,6 39:8 40:13,14,17 44:8 48:11,20 49:15,21 49:25 50:10,15,16 51:18 52:2 54:5 55:4,8 62:12,15 66:6 70:2,5,10,12 70:14,21 71:21 72:7 72:10,14,19,25 73:9 73:15 74:1 77:8,11 86:23 87:6,12 88:1 88:5,7,12,14,20 89:8,16 91:6,7,20 92:13,14,18,25 93:16 94:5,9,17 95:1,6,15 96:1,3,9 96:24 97:3,3,9,20 98:1,5,10,13,20 99:1 101:7,10,13 105:3,7 108:8,18 109:8,11 110:13,19 110:22 111:9,22 112:11,13,20 113:3 113:4,8,19,21 114:3 114:11,17,18 116:17 117:18 120:16,25 121:6,12 121:16,22,24 122:2 122:7,8,10,15,21,23 123:18,24 124:7 125:7,15,19,24 126:4,10,23 127:2 127:12,20 133:23 138:20,24 144:6 145:9 146:15 148:17 151:12,17 152:6,11 155:17 156:18,25 157:3,23 158:16 159:13,20 160:19 161:8,17 162:1,22 163:3,10 163:23 164:5,11 169:8,15 171:13,14 171:19 172:10 173:1 174:2,2,21 175:11 176:2 179:22 182:24 185:18 186:21 187:15 194:24 196:17 197:17 208:24 209:18 210:6,8,10,13,14,15 212:6,15 213:1,2,7 216:3,7 218:16 219:10,18,23,25 220:4,5 221:21,22 222:16,20,23 223:1 223:10,15,25 224:6 224:13,18 225:9,14 225:17,21,21,23 226:4,7,13 227:8,14 227:16 228:16 230:3,6,7,24 231:6 231:12,19,20 232:1 232:2,13,18,23,25 233:24 234:3 235:3 235:7,10,13,17,22 235:23,25 236:21 237:13,16,19 244:1 244:14,16,20,21 245:6,12,22 246:3 246:14,16,22,22,25 247:11,18 248:1,12 248:14 249:3,18 250:7,16,24 251:1,8 251:9,10,12,22 252:14,22,23 253:10,15,19,23 254:4,17 255:15,19 255:22,23 256:1,8,9 259:8 260:21 261:20 262:2,7,11 263:2 264:7 265:6 265:21 266:18,22 267:3,9,14,18,22 268:1,2,18,19,21 269:2 273:8 274:4 274:21 275:13 278:3,5,7 standards.gov. 121:21 standing 106:10 151:21 standpoint 112:12 stanford 52:19 staple 199:18 stapled 269:18,22 start 38:23 108:22 108:22 201:5 247:23 started 74:3 105:16 109:5,18 starting 209:15 269:25 270:7 state 24:20,21 80:23 102:12 125:23 126:2,4,7,11 127:2 151:4 169:3 173:6 212:19 stated 51:10 74:17 147:10 statement 47:3,10 47:16,20 70:1 83:21 144:1,9,16 179:14 195:17,18 209:22 210:4,19 222:8 244:6 247:17 statements 247:5 states 1:1 2:1 13:11 64:9 86:18 126:3,17 126:19,22 136:23 209:7 232:20 stating 17:19 status 48:14,22 51:11 statute 261:6 steele 143:9,13 step 30:2 steps 69:14 111:10 113:22 114:4 115:13,19,23 116:3 116:4 123:11 138:15,25 161:6 162:14 163:14 208:23 214:15 steve 280:4,6,7,17 280:19 steven 81:17 sticking 211:9 stipend 266:12 stipulate 178:18 233:14 stipulation 233:17 stoller 205:25 206:2 206:4 stop 171:7 stopped 273:17 straightforward 116:22 strategy 138:14,25 139:8,21 141:2,4,8 141:10 142:7,9 169:12 strauss 89:5 105:19 121:3 street 2:18 3:15 4:5 13:8 90:5 strengths 69:6 strike 20:6,14 39:12 40:2 44:15 47:23 54:2 62:20 72:22 88:6 97:24 106:7 110:9,15 126:8 128:15 129:17 133:16 167:11 171:11 172:23 Page 40 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [strike - testifying] 184:6 185:23 203:20 204:7 206:6 212:24 221:6 237:17 243:6 247:9 250:20 254:1 258:20 267:7 272:17 274:5 strikes 131:15 striking 105:2,13 string 5:14,18,20,22 6:5,10,20,22 7:8,13 7:15,17 8:5,7,9,11 8:15,22 9:5,9,11,13 9:15,17 10:8,10,14 10:16,18,20,22 11:5 11:7,15 strong 69:12 strongly 94:13 structural 7:21 struggling 279:19 stuck 184:13 studies 252:13,19 study 253:7 style 11:9 268:18 subcommittees 98:19 subject 15:3 149:24 150:10 198:7 216:7 subjects 15:6 submission 66:25 67:2,6 submissions 66:21 subscribing 183:6 subscription 223:21 subsequent 88:9 123:5 substance 199:3 284:8 substances 113:16 substantively 118:9 substituting 118:5 suddenly 108:24 suffered 148:25 150:15,19 165:6 suffers 168:11,20 suggest 92:8 155:1 175:25 suggested 252:20 suggesting 92:18 211:22 212:1,10 suggests 25:5 131:16 175:10 suite 2:18 90:6 summaries 110:12 212:5,14 213:4,6 summarizes 70:1 summarizing 83:22 summary 212:7 sunscreen 243:20,23 superfluous 154:11 superiors 81:1 237:24 supervision 283:10 supervisor 60:7 83:21 supervisory 99:21 supplemental 77:23 supply 210:4,18 support 12:1 96:3 118:18 supports 118:16 suppose 229:4 supposed 17:14 sure 24:22 45:6 70:6 75:9 78:24 81:10,12 85:11 95:21 114:22 115:1 117:10 150:25 154:17 156:2,6,10,14 159:14,22 186:4 189:18 212:11 223:10 228:22 231:14 260:13 261:14 surprise 55:1 161:22,25 162:6,6 162:17,20 163:21 surprised 187:11 surrounding 36:11 sustain 105:5 sustainable 97:16 sustained 36:25 swear 14:1 sworn 14:4 283:5 system 21:24 29:6 33:23 36:8,24 37:10 37:11,12 40:14 92:11 94:8 126:2 213:24 t t 5:6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 143:9 283:1,1 table 92:15 157:16 158:2 tables 151:17,18 tag 69:19 take 17:20 29:22 57:6 63:20 76:10 78:8,11,13 82:1 93:15 94:4 113:22 114:5 115:19 125:19 127:14,17 128:1 141:21 150:16 154:13 176:11 189:25 205:3 214:15 227:21 235:24 256:15 taken 2:17 18:3 45:8 46:12 69:14 82:5 101:6 125:21,21 128:6 130:10 161:7 176:16 190:4 200:24 205:10 228:2 256:18 264:14 283:3 talk 179:3 189:23 200:18 261:9 talkative 173:11 talking 111:1 150:23 227:10 tanks 34:25 35:4 task 212:13 252:24 253:22 254:3 tax 5:12 tco 60:10 team 60:23 136:9 technical 23:4 50:15 55:23 56:8 60:1,2,6 60:10 85:13 94:10 98:18 99:10 100:21 101:8,9,12 117:17 117:23 151:11 214:16 235:19 246:14 258:5 267:20 273:6 technically 161:3 technologies 93:7 technology 23:7 24:7 49:21 81:25 85:16 91:6 95:22 121:23 208:21 232:18 271:18 278:3 telecon 4:3,16 telephone 13:21 102:24 103:1,3 tell 83:13 85:9 89:22 101:14 109:1 145:17 150:17 157:15 166:18 211:14 261:11 273:24 283:5 teresa 100:25 term 72:1,6,10,17 72:18 73:4 75:10 98:21 164:1 171:17 terms 123:22 215:16 215:21 224:24 267:3 testified 14:5 51:1 115:18 162:5 197:14 testify 53:14 142:24 testifying 14:23 15:1 Page 41 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [testimony - topic] testimony 5:2 21:4 27:10 50:22 58:2 65:22 96:19 105:18 109:22 129:19,23 144:11 147:7,15,22 148:3 149:2,2,4,10 149:24 150:8,9,21 153:21 154:5,22 155:4,11 165:3,9 168:2,16 175:16 176:5 192:9 195:4 217:18 218:14 220:8 222:3,25 239:19 248:19 251:5 252:18 254:7 254:18,20 264:9 274:10 283:3,7,12 testing 1:3,16 2:3,16 13:9 266:16 text 203:7 213:7 thane 4:4 17:18 194:7,11 281:24 thane.rehn 4:9 thank 25:19 49:4 93:8 114:22 160:13 184:12 281:20,22 thanks 17:17 87:7 theories 175:8 thereof 283:15 thermometers 232:19 thing 17:12 270:13 things 50:4 105:22 108:23 124:16 186:7 187:10 211:24 233:24 237:2 274:1 think 16:14 17:3,21 17:22 18:24 30:12 34:24 35:4 43:15 46:17 47:2 61:7 74:24 79:21 88:21 90:22,24 91:17 94:23 96:10,20 97:1 98:23 101:15 108:18 109:7,15,16 110:10 111:14 121:8 123:20 127:25 129:20 130:2 139:6 141:17 141:23 143:6 151:9 152:16 157:22 160:18 163:24 166:12 167:19 178:17 181:8 184:10 185:13 190:11 191:9 192:22 196:22 201:7 218:24 226:5 227:23 233:13 235:15 236:19 244:16 245:13 246:10 248:7 250:11 256:5,7 257:15 260:12,12 260:25 264:1 265:20 271:23 275:1 281:6 thinking 63:14 105:22,25 115:6 212:10 271:2 third 143:16 217:1 thomas 4:13 57:16 57:18,19 62:5,14,20 64:5 67:10 84:2 85:11,22,23 100:14 100:20 104:14 137:19 138:13 143:16 144:1,9,16 146:25 179:10 182:20,23 184:22 199:12 203:5 205:24 207:25 218:21 243:8,12 thomas's 62:17 85:23 thought 16:2 17:2,5 81:8 106:9 111:14 111:16 115:9 116:15 166:3 167:12 171:24 189:1 246:20 thousands 219:10 thread 84:7 127:10 141:1,4 209:8 232:9 257:10 threat 232:20 three 14:18 19:24 20:21 27:12,15 29:18,20 30:18 31:1 31:5 42:8 43:24 81:19 98:23 99:21 119:20 134:25 135:16 156:8 162:18,23 278:24 280:8 tim 85:14 100:25 249:21 time 13:5,15 15:11 15:12 17:14,14,20 23:10 28:16 37:8,18 39:13,21 44:17 52:17 60:5 62:20,24 63:3,11,20 69:6,20 69:22 78:8 84:17 85:14 86:15 87:11 87:11,22,25 102:9 107:13,15 108:3 109:25 110:3,5,11 121:2,18 122:4 125:20 126:21,21 133:9 138:9,10 141:22 143:14,21 143:24 145:23 146:5,10 147:23 148:14,18,23 150:17 152:17 153:14,16 155:12 155:18 174:9 176:10,25 177:11 180:9 183:14 201:13 205:4 206:3 211:21 212:20 222:14 223:6 227:24 241:3 243:19 246:13,13 249:16 256:16 262:15,16 263:14 269:5 270:8,18 281:14,17 283:4 timely 153:11 times 88:1,4,22 109:11 114:10 119:21 123:3 124:6 181:16 261:4 263:17 275:24 276:5,8,10,17 timing 178:2 title 21:15,16,17,20 22:4 23:19 25:3,5 58:24,25 60:16 85:19 100:22 269:22 titles 21:14 28:19 today 13:5 14:23 18:15 21:4 33:14 44:19,25 53:11 129:19,23 142:24 147:7,15 150:9 192:9 196:14 197:7 197:15 213:12 218:10 220:1 today's 18:13,14 told 16:17 108:21 114:16 tolles 4:3 tom 13:23 14:22 33:12 85:12 140:16 140:22 143:7 147:3 147:13 198:12 top 104:15,18 134:15 141:1 176:23 179:11 195:1 203:17 217:2 220:24 229:1 topic 50:11,13,19 66:22 127:19 141:17 145:21 150:6 154:5,9 179:3 252:12 277:19 Page 42 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [topical - use] topical 88:16 topics 18:13 36:3 48:12,13 49:9,11,16 49:17 51:2 53:10,13 53:16,17 150:8 277:23 total 14:19 toy 73:16 74:1,7 trace 267:4 track 126:20 trade 6:13 24:7 50:7 50:8,15,16 60:17 90:9 94:10,11 111:8 229:19 trademarks 167:23 175:11 176:1 training 23:2,5 266:10 transatlantic 50:7 transcribed 283:9 transcript 172:6 transcription 161:8 247:22 283:11 284:5 transfer 54:5 95:23 transparency 244:22 268:7 transparent 92:13 162:11 219:19 244:22 transportation 35:2 102:13 113:14 treasurer 85:17 treasury 214:14,18 278:4 trend 20:14,15 trends 19:11 20:16 20:20 tretler 280:4 tried 123:4 trips 102:21 true 271:25 283:11 truly 209:18 truth 283:6,6,7 try 22:2 88:23 95:19 180:23 trying 36:7 75:11 109:19 114:25 125:4 194:5 226:15 273:7 turn 178:15 twice 119:8 192:1 twitter 194:22 195:3 195:5,8,10,12 two 14:18 19:24 40:24 41:19 48:18 74:12 83:11 85:17 90:10 98:23 99:20 111:14 122:17 156:12 199:19 207:9 209:7 229:18 229:25 239:5 273:25 277:18 278:24 281:18 type 16:3 23:11 44:12 74:18 87:14 108:5 124:19 153:2 types 43:16 44:18 77:23 148:19 213:23 232:24 253:17 u u 13:21 u.s. 22:18 24:13,20 29:5 33:23 34:13,18 34:19 35:18,18 36:8 36:23 37:10,11 40:6 40:13 50:8 64:10 73:21 92:15 94:8 121:25 214:5,7,12 214:14,17 233:1 266:13,14,17 uh 51:23 175:13 ultimate 125:17 ultimately 80:24 202:16 unable 132:6 195:5 195:7 unaware 227:2 unclear 95:9 uncontroversial 178:17 undergoing 121:8 undergraduate 22:11,12 underlying 136:20 209:7 257:9 undermined 250:15 underneath 136:7 understand 14:23 15:1 25:21 37:13,14 37:18 54:3 74:13 75:24 76:23 79:7,8 87:1 88:23,24 95:14 97:7 104:18 105:24 107:19 117:19 122:2 137:24 141:3 143:25 144:3,15 146:2 150:24 169:6 169:11,14 179:14 194:5 204:5 206:17 208:1 211:8 217:9 218:25 221:3 222:9 223:24 243:14 246:11 249:16 251:14 262:15 understanding 18:25 59:11,17 62:4 62:19 65:23 75:8,19 76:2,5 77:1,3,15 78:17,22,25 95:19 95:22 108:19 126:1 133:21 135:12 139:20,24 141:7,10 143:5,21 149:11 151:14,24 153:8 157:7 169:20 174:25 211:15 216:8 219:4 223:6 223:12 230:23 245:4 understood 117:15 222:7 272:4 undertake 29:15 undertaken 27:3 undertaking 123:5 272:9 undertook 25:15,22 underway 272:18 272:22 underwriters 52:25 203:19,22 204:6,9 204:13 unexpected 20:6 unfettered 246:25 247:18,25 249:2,15 250:6,23 252:15 unfortunately 102:6 unintended 116:16 120:7 161:2 219:21 249:17 260:15 united 1:1 2:1 13:11 64:9 86:18 136:23 209:7 232:20 university 280:9 unlimited 222:16 223:1,15,16,16 unredacted 130:19 130:20 unusual 20:6 update 48:22 49:20 49:21 51:11,14 updating 38:13 69:11 upside 151:17 158:3 urging 91:11,14 url 86:10 use 38:5 41:16 66:5 72:18 113:19 124:22,24 126:19 171:7 207:14 215:4 222:17 223:1,16 232:22,24 237:13 257:10 259:15,18 260:19,20 261:19 263:5 267:19 270:14 273:8 Page 43 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [user - washington] user 218:11 230:24 uses 130:1 ustr 24:12 usually 278:15 utilize 114:17 125:18 151:23 utilizing 96:2 113:4 235:23 v v 13:10 vacancy 90:10,11 vague 20:3,8,17 21:22 22:16 23:6,13 25:6,24 26:20 27:10 28:3 29:25 30:8,20 31:13 32:6 36:4,20 38:25 39:6,16 41:10 42:20 43:4 44:2 45:16 49:10 50:12 52:17 54:23 55:13 61:6,12 63:1 65:12 65:24 70:19,24 71:24 72:16 75:6 79:13,20 82:24 87:8 91:16 92:21 93:2 95:8 98:3 99:3 104:23 106:24 107:5,11 108:9 112:22 116:10 117:1,13 118:8 120:21 121:18 122:4 124:14 125:11 127:23 133:19 135:4 139:3 143:3 144:25 146:9 146:24 150:22 155:4 158:17 160:15 163:5,24 164:6 165:19 168:2 170:2 180:17 181:12 184:18 185:20 186:14,22 187:24 192:12 199:14 201:17 209:10 214:22 217:17,23 218:13 220:7 223:3,18 225:2,10 227:18 228:12 230:22 232:14 234:20 235:4,14 236:22 237:5 239:20 240:1 242:7 246:9 247:3 248:5 249:5 250:1 250:10 251:4 252:2 252:16 253:11 256:3,12 262:13 264:9,16,24 265:8 265:15 266:23 267:11 268:5,22 269:3 272:14 274:10 277:9 278:12,23 vagueness 170:11 171:18 value 110:21 162:10 210:7,10 variables 157:17 varies 277:21 variety 77:20 187:10 225:9,17 226:22 various 39:9 66:4,22 85:6 86:23 87:5 105:4 109:9 110:14 126:4 219:5 251:11 vary 98:21 99:6 vendor 123:13 vendors 61:4 126:19 verbatim 222:3 verify 238:22,23 270:14 veritext 2:17 13:4,7 version 124:20,23 125:3 130:18 168:8 168:9,12,12,21 169:1,24,25 170:3,8 170:9,13 171:5,8 228:15 229:3,12,14 260:14,16 261:13 261:15 268:1 versions 122:14,18 171:15 259:24 versus 231:15 232:2 viability 213:2 219:22 220:5 248:13 viable 94:7 vice 4:13 18:16 21:18 24:9,10 32:7 33:12 56:8 60:6,9 60:12 85:7,7,13,14 85:19,20,20,24 99:13 100:16,20 145:8,14 165:22 208:20 video 13:6 videographer 4:18 13:3,25 18:1,5 46:10,14 82:3,7 128:4,8 130:8,12 176:14,18 190:2,6 200:22 201:1 205:8 205:12 227:25 228:4 256:17,20 269:6 281:16 282:1 videotaped 1:15 2:15 view 36:19 46:3 71:5,15 160:23 169:23 170:7 171:9 171:12 172:24 216:9 236:19 247:24,24 249:1 250:6 254:15 259:24 viewed 157:2 224:6 viewing 151:15 views 62:19 87:10 237:2 269:13 270:8 270:17 violation 215:21 virginia 89:5 visit 102:19 visited 275:24 visiting 182:17 voir 130:22 volume 70:15 122:20 volumes 251:8 voluntary 38:5,6 66:5 92:14 95:1 96:2 97:3 125:15 234:2,4,22 235:22 244:21 246:16 252:14,22 253:10 253:14,15,18 263:1 voted 267:24 voting 53:2 266:1 vs 1:9 2:9 w wait 273:19 waiting 154:8 waiver 177:7 192:23 193:4,10 want 23:22 24:21 32:15 46:2 76:20 83:7 88:23 115:15 127:10,19 151:6 154:13 168:19 176:12 179:7,7 186:4,12 193:7,13 211:23 222:2 227:21 234:5 238:22,23 260:13 263:24 268:10 wanted 18:21 19:2 19:15 30:3 117:20 181:8 222:19 228:16 229:13 259:8 262:7 263:3 wanting 62:17 171:7 wants 185:25 191:11 229:4 249:9 washington 1:19 2:19 3:7 13:1,7,8 21:15 22:24 26:8 Page 44 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [washington - witness] 28:13 29:7 33:24 34:1,6,8,12 35:15 38:10,24 39:5,10,14 39:18,22 41:3 48:13 60:15,22 86:23 87:6 88:22 90:3 101:21 105:11 108:24 109:8,9 115:8 121:8 183:9 277:17 278:7 278:9,16 279:15,20 watch 227:23 water 70:7 97:15 way 29:8 44:8 101:14 105:16 108:19 109:2 110:9 110:12 111:21 112:14 124:11 136:17 152:1,9 160:19 191:6 220:11 222:21 234:22 244:19 267:4 274:22 278:6 ways 70:3,4 91:19 106:6 213:25 225:9 225:17 226:19 231:1,2 235:24 we've 17:21 19:17 69:18,19 70:15 92:11 94:13 123:2 123:15 124:23 176:9 185:24 190:13 192:22 205:6 219:17 224:10 235:21 248:8 264:25 274:13 wear 243:20,23 website 25:12 105:17 114:19 121:21 122:22 149:22 179:21 183:15 214:9 223:8 225:25 226:11,21 275:12,25 276:11 276:18 wednesday 1:20 2:19 13:1 week 88:14 89:9,19 156:18,21 255:12 weekend 243:22 weeks 100:18 156:12 welcome 179:6 233:20 246:2 wendler 135:2,17 went 116:20 173:9 179:20 180:14,21 181:6 208:1 222:19 west 3:12 13:19 widely 40:18 94:14 112:14 164:16 181:9 235:18 245:9 widespread 107:4 wisconsin 81:16,18 280:9 wish 36:10 wishes 131:8 withdraw 70:20 144:12 witness 12:3 13:13 14:1 16:1,22 19:9 19:15 20:4,9,18,23 21:10,23 22:17 23:7 23:14 25:8,19,25 26:11,22 27:11,22 27:25 28:5 29:14 30:1,9,15,22 31:3 31:15,21,25 32:7,14 32:21 33:1,8,18 34:5 36:6,14,22 37:22 38:1,20 39:1 39:7,17,24 40:10,24 41:11,18 42:1,8,12 42:21 43:5,15 44:4 44:11 45:4,10 48:9 49:4,12 50:14 51:10 52:10,18 53:4,24 54:14,19,25 55:15 55:21 56:7,16,24 57:8,9 58:5,6,7,15 58:17 59:6,19 61:7 61:13,24,25 62:11 63:3,21,22,23 65:5 65:14 66:2,3,14,18 67:5,14,15,24 68:11 71:1,9,18 72:1,6,17 73:4,21 74:16,25 77:5,19 78:4,15,24 79:15,21 80:2,9,22 81:4,15,24 82:2,17 82:18,25 83:14,17 83:18 84:11,12,19 84:20,24 87:9 90:15 90:19 91:17 92:22 93:22,25 94:22 95:21 96:12 97:1,13 98:4,12,17 99:4,17 100:2,3 103:6,16,25 104:9,10,25 106:3 106:25 107:6,13,24 108:11 109:23 112:7,9,23 113:11 115:6 116:2,11 117:5,14 118:15 119:4,13 120:13 121:19 122:5 124:15 125:12 126:1,15 127:6,24 128:18,19 129:4,5,9 129:14 130:14 131:3 132:5,11,17 132:18 133:1,7,12 133:13,21 134:12 134:13,21 135:5,12 135:20 136:1,25 137:12 138:2,19 139:14 140:3,10,16 140:22 142:2,11,16 142:17 143:5,12 144:3,19 145:1,7 146:10,25 147:10 147:23 148:4,8,13 149:11 150:1,12 151:10 152:5,16,24 153:7,22 154:23 155:5,12,23 156:2,6 156:10,14,21 157:7 158:2,12,19,23 159:2,11,17 160:8 160:16 161:1,13,20 162:3,9,20 163:1,6 163:20 164:1,8,13 164:22 165:4,10,21 166:8,16,25 167:5 167:19 168:3,23 169:11,19 170:4,12 170:24 171:21,23 172:17 173:22 174:14 175:4,17 176:6,13 177:10 178:8,14 179:19 180:5,18 181:13 182:3 184:19 185:13,21 186:9,16 186:23 187:8,20 188:6 189:1,11,18 190:1,13 191:6,9,24 192:11,18 193:19 193:21 194:2,6,14 195:25 196:1,12 197:2,23 198:11 199:15 200:2,3,17 200:18 201:13,19 201:25 202:12,21 203:16 204:3,20 206:15,20 207:21 208:5,13,14 209:2 209:11 210:1,6,23 211:5,6,18 212:24 213:9 214:23 215:12,25 216:14 216:24 217:19,24 218:15 219:16 220:10,21,22 221:16 222:11 223:4,19 224:5,20 225:4,11,19 226:15 227:20,22 228:13 228:21 229:10 230:14,15,23 231:8 Page 45 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 [witness - z] 231:14,25 232:16 233:13,19,21 234:15,21 235:5,15 236:12,16,24 237:6 237:11,23 238:5,10 238:20 239:11,21 240:2,11,12,17 241:1,9,25 242:9,17 243:9,10,17 244:5 244:12,19 245:17 246:2,12 247:8 248:7 249:15,23 250:4,14 251:7,20 252:3,7,19 253:5,13 254:10,21 255:4 256:5,14 257:4,18 257:23 258:11,12 258:18,21 259:5,14 259:22 260:12,25 261:23 262:5,14,25 263:9,13,21 264:11 264:17,25 265:9,20 267:2,12 268:6,23 269:4,17 270:15,16 271:9 272:8,16,21 273:2,17,22 274:12 275:10,18 276:3,7 276:14 277:3,10 278:2,14,24 279:19 280:1,16,24 281:6 281:22 282:4 283:13 word 21:20 117:9 118:4,18 192:2 wording 118:8 words 118:5 234:5 254:22 265:17 work 16:16 17:7 22:1 24:6 25:14,21 26:15,18 29:9,18 32:16 38:4 44:7,8 54:6 55:22 69:25 81:22 86:1 90:4 92:12 97:18 102:14 109:25 114:8 124:5 125:14,14 131:18 140:18,23 180:5 181:7 188:19 196:5 198:18,22 201:9,9 201:20,22 219:6 234:4 244:20,23 246:16 276:24 worked 21:12 22:17 22:22 23:10 26:22 29:21 80:16 102:11 109:12 136:21 185:22 232:17 247:12 working 17:15 28:23 30:18 31:1,6 64:10 81:4,8 86:17 87:13 105:1,11 108:22 109:5,18 124:1 142:5 180:22 226:1,2 234:24 273:23 works 37:12 60:15 90:7 101:23 103:17 140:22 163:13 219:5 243:1 258:4 workshop 11:13 69:1,2 88:12,20 270:1 world 69:25 72:12 73:24 88:14 89:8 94:10 142:17 worldwide 64:24 182:21 226:3 237:12 worry 46:8 writing 54:5 55:8 185:4 written 40:1,3 62:14 207:12 269:21 wrong 76:16 125:1 228:15 229:12 273:12 wrongful 136:15 wrote 116:12 243:12 x x 5:1,6 6:2 7:2 8:2 9:2 10:2 11:2 y yeah 30:15 41:18 46:6 49:19 74:25 87:7 90:5 91:17 92:22 96:12 97:1 101:11 106:3,25 112:9 114:22 117:14 170:4 184:19 185:3 195:10 198:18 225:19 227:22 231:25 232:16 234:21 239:21 240:17 241:25 260:12 274:12 281:6 year 69:19 83:23 89:9 102:20 109:20 109:24 110:7 146:11 155:25 157:2 177:23 181:17 186:24 265:1 266:2 years 19:16,24 20:16,21 21:13 24:8 38:2,8 80:12,14 99:21 102:4 104:25 105:8 108:14 111:25 156:8 219:17 220:11 224:10 237:23 247:12 250:17 261:7 264:2,23 265:2,14 280:8 yesterday 145:19,21 145:25 157:2 184:13 york 52:3 z z 13:10 Page 46 Veritext Legal Solutions 866 299-5127 Federal Rules o f Civil Procedure Rule 30 (e) Review By the Witness; Changes . (1) Review; Statement of Changes . On request by the deponent or a party before the deposition is completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days after being notified by the officer that the transcript or recording is available in which : (A) to review the transcript or recording; and (B) if there are changes in form or substance, to sign a statement listing the changes and the reasons for making them . (2) Changes Indicated in the Officer ' s Certificate . The officer must note in the certificate prescribed by Rule 30(f) (1) whether a review was requested and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent makes during the 30 - day period . DISCLAIMER : THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY . THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1, 2014 . PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP - TO - DATE INFORMATION .

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