AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 40

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
- - AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR
: Case No.
TESTING AND MATERIALS d/b/a: 1:13-cv-01215-PSC-DAR
ASTM INTERNATIONAL;
:
:
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION
:
ASSOCIATION, INC.; and
:
:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF
:
HEATING, REFRIGERATING,
:
AND AIR-CONDITIONING
:
ENGINEERS, INC.
:
Plaintiffs,
:
:
vs.
:
:
PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., :
Defendant.
:
___________________________:
AND RELATED COUNTERCLAIMS. :
___________________________:
Videotaped 30(b)(6) deposition
of American Society for Testing & Materials,
through DANIEL SMITH, held in the offices of
Veritext Philadelphia, 1801 Market Street,
Ten Penn Center, Suite 1800, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania 19103, commencing at 10:43 a.m.,
July 24, 2015, before Linda Rossi Rios, a
Federally Approved RPR, CCR and Notary
Public.

PAGES 1 - 292
Page 1
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 On behalf of the Plaintiffs
4
MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
BY: J KEVIN FEE, ESQUIRE
5
1111 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D C 20004
6
[phone]
jkfee@morganlewis com
7
8
On behalf of the Defendant,
9 Public Resource Org, Inc
10
FENWICK & WEST LLP
BY: MATTHEW BECKER, ESQUIRE
11
and
ANDREW P BRIDGES, ESQUIRE
12
555 California Street
12th Floor
13
San Francisco, California 94104
[phone]
14
mbecker@fenwick com
abridges@fenwick com
15
16
A L S O P R E S E N T:
17
THOMAS B O'BRIEN, JR , Vice President
18
and General Counsel, ASTM International
19
CARL MALAMUD, Public Resource Org
(via telecon)
20
RYAN ARMSTRONG, Videographer
21
- - 22
23
24
25

1 Exhibit 1291 Certificates of Copyright 122
Registration,
2
ASTM000001 - ASTM000168
3 Exhibit 1292 Check, ASTM049368
171
4 Exhibit 1293 2011 Membership renewal 173
invoices,
5
ASTM086030 - ASTM086031
6 Exhibit 1294 Organizational Membership 181
Directory
7
Exhibit 1295 E-mail chain with
187
8
attachment,
ASTM025633 - ASTM025640
9
Exhibit 1296 Membership application, 195
10
ASTM068894
11 Exhibit 1297 2010 ASTM International 201
Committee Membership
12
Application,
ASTM079420
13
Exhibit 1298 ASTM Application,
204
14
ASTM073844
15 Exhibit 1299 ASTM Applications,
205
ASTM066848 - ASTM066853
16
Exhibit 1300 Membership application, 209
17
ASTM067024
18 Exhibit 1301 Membership applications, 210
ASTM066871, ASTM069213,
19
ASTM069058, ASTM080176,
ASTM061450, ASTM063146,
20
ASTM063147, ASTM065682 &
ASTM066345
21
Exhibit 1302 Compilation of documents, 229
22
ASTM066829, ASTM067015,
ASTM067321, ASTM067813,
23
ASTM070124, ASTM071068,
ASTM074751, ASTM075283,
24
ASTM060533, ASTM051140,
ASTM081145
25

Page 2
1
2

I N D E X
WITNESS

PAGE

3
DANIEL SMITH
4
By Mr Becker

10

5
By Mr Fee

288

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7
E X H I B I T S
8
MARKED

DESCRIPTION

PAGE

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1 Exhibit 1303 Compilation of documents, 232
various Bates from
2
ASTM069093 to ASTM057841
3 Exhibit 1304 2010 Membership Renewal 235
Invoice,
4
ASTM075697
5 Exhibit 1305 2011 Membership Renewal 238
Invoice,
6
ASTM082973
7 Exhibit 1306 E-mail chain,
239
ASTM101777 - ASTM101779
8
Exhibit 1307 E-mail chain,
243
9
ASTM099502 - ASTM099506
10 Exhibit 1308 8/20/14 E-mail with
244
attachment,
11
ASTM003314 & ASTM003315
12 Exhibit 1309 ASTM Collaboration Area, 253
ASTM103272
13
Exhibit 1310 ASTM Membership
255
14
Application,
ASTM103274 - ASTM103276
15
Exhibit 1311 Record Retention Policy, 257
16
ASTM003501 - ASTM003522
17 Exhibit 1312 11/21/08 E-mail with
260
attachment,
18
ASTM088320 - ASTM088325
19 Exhibit 1313 Web site screenshots,
261
ASTM001792 - ASTM001800
20
Exhibit 1314 Screenshots,
263
21
ASTM001801 - ASTM001813
22 Exhibit 1315 ASTM Member Application 264
Forms,
23
ASTM052816, ASTM052817,
ASTM062194, ASTM062195,
24
ASTM062198 & ASTM062199
25 Exhibit 1316 Regulations Governing
266
ASTM Technical Committees

Exhibit 1284 ASTM International
34
Participation and
Acknowledgement Form,
ASTM103273
Exhibit 1285 Intellectual Property
60
Policy of ASTM,
ASTM103277 - ASTM103284
Exhibit 1286 Intellectual Property
64
Policy of ASTM
International ("Policy"),
ASTM103285 - ASTM103290

16
Exhibit 1287 Intellectual Property
65
Policy of ASTM
International ("Policy"),
18
ASTM003445 - ASTM003448
19 Exhibit 1288 Intellectual Property
68
Policy of ASTM
20
International ("Policy"),
ASTM003437 - ASTM003441
21
Exhibit 1289 Defendant
88
22
Public Resource Org,
Inc 's Amended Notice of
23
Rule 30(b)(6) Deposition
of American Society for
24
Testing and Materials
25 Exhibit 1290 Exhibit A from Complaint 121
17

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Exhibit 1317 Participating Membership 277
2
Applications,
ASTM064686 - ASTM064692
3
Exhibit 1318 E-mail chain with
277
4
attachment,
ASTM087493 - ASTM087497
5
Exhibit 1319 2011 ASTM International 278
6
Committee Membership
Application,
7
ASTM061183
8 Exhibit 1320 How To Standards Writing 279
101 New Standards
9
Exhibit 1321 How Standards are
280
10
Developed article
11 Exhibit 1322 8/13/08 E-mail,
281
ASTM073852
12
Exhibit 1323 Bates Numbers of
284
13
Assignment Documents
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- - VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on is
record.
Please note that the microphones
are sensitive and may pick up
whispering and private conversations.
Please turn off all cell phones or
place them away from the microphones
as they can interfere with the
deposition audio. Recording will
continue until all parties agree to go
off the record.
My name is Ryan Armstrong
representing Veritext Legal Solutions.
The date today is July 24, 2015,
and the time is approximately 10:43
a.m.
This deposition is being held at
Veritext located at 1801 Market
Street, Suite 1800, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania, and is being taken by
counsel for the defense.
The caption of this case is
American Society for Testing and
Materials International, et al. V

Page 6

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DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
Direction to Witness Not To Answer
Page Line Page Line
161 21 286 13
241 7 286 20
242 12 287 1
243 5 287 10
286 2 287 22
Request For Production of Documents
Page Line Page Line
(None)
Stipulations
Page Line
10 3
Questions Marked
Page Line Page Line
(None)

- - -

Public.Resource.Org, Incorporated.
This case is being held in the
United States District Court for the
District of Columbia, Case Number
1:13-cv-01215-EGS. The name of the
witness is Dan Smith.
At this time the attorneys
present in the room and everyone
attending remotely will identify
themselves and the parties they
represent. Our court reporter Linda
Rossi, representing Veritext Legal
Solutions, will swear in the witness
and we can proceed.
MR. BECKER: This is Matthew
Becker and Andrew Bridges of Fenwick &
West for the defendant
Public.Resource.Org.
MR. FEE: Kevin Fee from Morgan
Lewis on behalf of ASTM.
MR. BRIDGES: We also have
somebody there -MR. O'BRIEN: Tom O'Brien from
ASTM.
MR. BRIDGES: And then on the

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phone is Carl Malamud of
Public.Resource.Org.
MR. FEE: I'm sorry. I did hear
the caption had EGS at the end.
That's the wrong caption now. It's
re-assigned ending with PSC-DAR.
Before we get started, I want to
reserve reading and signing for the
witness.
- - DANIEL SMITH, after having been
duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
- - EXAMINATION
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. My name is Matthew Becker of
Fenwick & West for the defendant
Public.Resource.Org, and I'll be taking your
deposition today.
Could you, please, state your
full name for the record?
A. Daniel Gerald Smith.
Q. Mr. Smith, have you ever had

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A. Yes.
Q. If at any point you do not
understand a question, will you, please, let
me know and I'll try to clarify the question?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you answer my question,
I'll assume that you understood. Does that
make sense?
A. Yes.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
10:46. We're going off the video
record.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
10:46. We're back on the video
record.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, if you ever need a
break for any reason, please let me know and
we'll take a break as long as I'm not in the
middle of a line of questioning. If I am in
the middle of a line of questioning, then
I'll ask that we can finish that line of

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your deposition taken before?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Smith, have you ever been
involved in any lawsuits before?
A. No.
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Remember give me a second to object
first.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, let's just go over
the rules so that you're familiar with them.
In a deposition I'll be asking the questions
and you'll be providing answers to those
questions. Do you understand that you're
giving testimony under oath today as
though -- today as you would in a court of
law?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you understand that the
court reporter is taking down everything that
you say?
A. Yes.
Q. And that means that we need
audible responses to everything, not nods and
gestures.

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questioning and then you can take a break.
Does that sound good?
A. Yes.
MR. FEE: That's fine. We'll
let you at least finish your question
and get an answer.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And if you come to realize at
any point that one of your answers is not
completely correct, will you, please, let me
know and we can address it?
A. Yes.
Q. And after the deposition, the
transcript is prepared, you'll have a chance
to review it and make changes to it.
However, if you make any changes, I will be
able to comment on those changes. Do you
understand?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, is there any
medication or other reason that might prevent
you from giving your best testimony today?
A. No.
Q. Is there any reason that you
can think of that might prevent you from

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giving your best testimony today?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Smith, what do you do for a
living?
A. I work for ASTM International.
Q. And when you say you work for
ASTM International, what do you mean?
A. I'm the vice -MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I'm the vice
president of technical committee
operations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what is technical committee
operations?
A. It's a division within ASTM.
Q. What does technical committee
mean?
A. Technical committees develop
standards.
Q. When you say "standards," what
do you mean by that?
A. Consensus standards.
Q. By "consensus standards," what

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technical committee?
A. A group of experts that develop
standards.
Q. And who are those experts?
A. Volunteers.
Q. And are they only volunteers?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: For the most part
from my knowledge, they're all
volunteers.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How does a technical committee
go about developing standards as you say?
A. They use our consensus process.
Q. What is the consensus process?
A. It's two levels of voting
starting with the subcommittee and then the
main committee.
Q. What's the difference between a
subcommittee and a main committee?
A. A subcommittee is typically
smaller with a more narrow interest. A main
committee has broader interest.
Q. So within a technical
committee, then, there is -- is there just

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do you mean by that?
A. Documents.
Q. Any documents?
A. Specifications, test methods,
practices, guides, classifications and
terminology.
Q. Does the term "standards" have
any specific meaning to you?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you mean by that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you define what a standard
is?
A. Just what I said previously,
it's a test method, a specification, a
practice, a guide, classification or
terminology.
Q. And you say that the technical
committees develop standards. How do -actually, let me back up.
What is a technical committee?
A. I'm not sure how to answer
that. I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Q. How would you define a

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one main committee?
A. A main committee is a technical
committee.
Q. And are there numerous
subcommittees?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many subcommittees on
average?
A. It varies.
Q. Could you give me a range by
which it might vary?
A. The best of my knowledge, maybe
from 3 to 40, 50.
Q. When you say there is a
consensus process that involves voting in the
subcommittee and then voting at the main
committee level, can you elaborate on that
process?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: They vote on
standards so the folks on that
committee will vote on whether or not
they agree or not agree with the
content of the standard.
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. Is that agree or don't agree on
the content of a draft standard or the
finalized standard?
A. A draft standard.
Q. Could we just back up a little
bit and could you walk me through how a
standard is developed at ASTM?
A. It varies, but it could be
by -- it starts typically with a task group.
Q. And what does the task group
do?
A. They'll develop the content of
the draft.
Q. And who composes the task
group?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: The task group is
typically made up of volunteers who
wish to serve on the task group.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are -- is everyone in a task
group an ASTM member?
A. No, not necessarily.
Q. In what situations would
individuals who are not members of ASTM

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average?
A. It varies, but it could be
anywhere from 3 to 30 approximately.
Q. And you said that the task
group develops the content or the original
draft of a standard. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
foundation.
THE WITNESS: From my
experience, that's what a task group
does.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How is a task group initially
formed?
A. It's formed by a group of
volunteers who want to develop a standard or
a revision to a standard.
Q. Do the members and -- excuse
me.
Do the ASTM members and
nonmembers of ASTM who compose task groups
generally have the same or similar interests?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I

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compose members of the task group?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you mean by that. Could you repeat
that or say that differently?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Let's see. Are -- let me back
up just a moment.
Are any members of the task
group also members of ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. But some members of the task
groups are not members of ASTM?
A. Could be. It's mostly members.
Q. And why would individuals who
are not members of ASTM be members of the
task group?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: From my
experience, because they're interested
in the standard that's being
developed.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How large are task groups on

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would think they would have a variety
of different interests.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any characteristics
other than ASTM membership that would
distinguish ASTM members who are members of
task groups and those members of task groups
who are not ASTM members?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The members pay
the $75 membership fee. Nonmembers
don't pay the membership. That's the
only thing I can think of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How does a task group go about
developing the initial draft of a standard?
A. They could do it in a variety
of ways.
Q. Could you give me some examples?
A. They could do it through the
use of our collaboration areas, an online
space that allows them to develop the draft.
Q. And in what other ways?
A. They could do it through course
of e-mail.

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Q. And in what other ways?
A. Through a meeting.
Q. And in what other ways?
A. None other come to mind at this
point.
Q. Are there any differences in
how a task group would develop a draft of a
standard today versus how they might have
developed a draft of a standard in the 1970s
or 1980s?
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
foundation. Calls for speculation.
You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Just from common
sense, we wouldn't have had our Web
tools, they wouldn't have been able to
use our Web tools or our virtual
meeting technology in the '70s.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know how task groups
developed drafts in the 1970s and 1980s?
A. I don't know firsthand, but my
guess is they would have done it at meetings.
Q. When did ASTM first provide the
online collaboration areas for the use by

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outside of ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know how drafts of
the -- of ASTM standards were exchanged
between task group members prior to the
introduction of the online collaboration area
by ASTM?
A. My guess would be through mail
and fax.
Q. Do you know if that mail and
fax of drafts was facilitated by ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I would imagine
that some of them would have been
facilitated by ASTM and others would
not have been.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Prior to the introduction of
the online collaboration area, were there
specific forms that task group members were
made to fill out when drafting drafts of ASTM
standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I believe we had
forms starting in about 2003 on our

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task groups?
A. Guessing, it was sometime
probably in the early 2000s roughly.
Q. How long have you been at ASTM
for?
A. About 23 years.
Q. So you were at ASTM for roughly
a decade, at least a decade prior to when the
online collaboration area was first rolled
out. Is that correct?
A. Approximately.
Q. So prior to when the online
collaboration area was rolled out, how did
task groups develop draft standards at ASTM?
A. To my knowledge, it would have
been at meetings.
Q. Were these meetings organized
by ASTM?
A. Some of them.
Q. But other meetings might not
have been organized by ASTM, is that what
you're saying?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: They could. They
could organize their own meetings

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membership applications that required
members to assign all rights to ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So the membership, the forms on
the membership applications for ASTM that
asked individuals to assign all rights to
ASTM, as you said, started in 2003 and didn't
exist prior to that date?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. And this just concerned the
membership applications. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: We also had them
on our renewal forms, membership
renewal forms. And then we also had
them on our work item registration,
and then our collaboration.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is a work item registration
form?
A. It's for essentially opening up
a new work item.
Q. What is a work item?
A. Either a revision to a standard
or development of a new standard.

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Q. And when was the language that
you say concerns assignments of rights
introduced to the work item form?
A. I think it was in about 2003,
'04, '05, somewhere in there.
Q. So somewhere in the 2003 to
2005 period, you're not certain precisely
when?
A. I believe so.
Q. But it didn't exist on those
forms prior to at earliest 2003?
A. That's correct.
Q. Who fills out a work item form?
A. A member.
Q. Is it only ASTM members who
fill out work item forms?
A. If a member would ask a staff
person to help facilitate filling out a form,
they may do that.
Q. What is a collaboration form?
A. The collaboration, if a member
wants to initiate a collaboration area, they
have to go through an online process to
initiate it.
Q. Just so I understand, is that

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work item registration forms for ASTM?
A. No.
Q. And those individuals I
described a moment ago, do they fill out
collaboration forms for ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. They do. Are they required to
fill out collaboration forms for ASTM in
order to participate in the development of a
draft of a standard?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. From approximately what year
forward have individuals who are members of
ASTM task groups but not themselves members
of ASTM been required to fill out
collaboration forms in order to participate
in the drafting of an ASTM standard?
A. To my knowledge, since the
beginning.
Q. When you say "since the
beginning," what do you mean?
A. When we had -- when we created
the form.

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to create the online collaboration area that
you had described earlier as being a location
online provided by ASTM where members of a
task group could go to help develop the draft
for a standard?
A. Yes.
Q. And so the collaboration form
was only introduced after the collaboration
areas had been provided by ASTM to its
members?
A. Yes.
Q. And when, again, did you say
that that was?
A. I think it was about 2003.
Q. People who are members of task
groups for developing standards but are not
themselves ASTM members, do they fill out
membership applications for ASTM?
A. No.
Q. And those individuals who I
just described a moment ago, do they fill out
renewal forms for ASTM?
A. No.
Q. And those individuals who I
just described a moment ago, do they fill out

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Q. So that would be approximately
2003, you're saying?
A. Yes.
Q. Were individuals who were
members of task groups but not themselves
members of ASTM required to fill out any
forms in order to participate in the drafting
of an ASTM standard prior to 2003?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Is there any means by which
ASTM claims that individuals who are -- who
were members of task groups but not
themselves members of ASTM have assigned any
copyrights that they might have in the drafts
of the standards that were created and
eventually published through ASTM -- to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Instruct you not
to disclose any communications you
might have had with counsel regarding
that subject. If you have an
independent knowledge that is
responsive, you can answer that.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. Not
to my knowledge.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Today when individuals who are
members of ASTM task groups but not members
of ASTM fill out collaboration forms, does
ASTM believe that by doing so those
individuals are assigning their copyright
interest to ASTM in the draft of the standard
that they have created?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Again, I instruct
you not to disclose your
communications with counsel. But if
you have an understanding otherwise,
you can answer.
THE WITNESS: I believe it does.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM believe that it does?
MR. FEE: Same objection and
instruction.
THE WITNESS: I would think so,
yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are all the forms that
nonmembers may provide to ASTM in the course
of their activities with the technical

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interest to ASTM.
Q. And who is given this form?
A. A task group or an individual
who might be bringing something forward to
contribute to ASTM.
Q. Were all members of ASTM task
groups given this form that you're
describing?
A. No.
Q. What members of ASTM task
groups were given this form that you're
assigning?
A. If an individual is bringing a
significant -- like a document to ASTM that
they wanted to convert into an ASTM standard.
Q. When you say "a document," what
do you mean by that?
A. A piece of paper.
Q. In what instances would
individuals have brought documents such as
you're describing to be converted into an
ASTM standard?
A. If an individual wanted to take
a document that they had and make it into an
ASTM standard, they brought it forward to

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committees?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
Vague as to time. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: The collaboration
form. No other forms come to mind
that a nonmember would submit to ASTM,
but there could be some.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any other means by
which nonmembers of ASTM who are themselves
members of an ASTM task group may assign
their copyright interest to ASTM other than
the collaboration form?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. I instruct you
not to disclose your communications
with counsel. If you have any other
responsive information, you can
provide that.
THE WITNESS: We had a form that
we did use for assigning rights to
ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What form is this?
A. It's a form for assigning

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ASTM.
Q. Could you give me some examples
of why somebody might do that?
A. Because they want to make it
into an ASTM standard.
Q. Would this be individuals or
companies that had previously drafted
standards that they would then like to see
turned into ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Could be.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What years -- from between
which years were -- was this form that you're
describing used?
A. I think it was created in
approximately 2002 or somewhere in that area.
Q. Is this document still used?
A. I'm not aware of any recent
use, but it may have.
Q. Do you know if this document
was produced to Public.Resource?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.

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THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. BECKER: Counsel, do you
know if this document was produced to
Public.Resource?
MR. FEE: I'm not here to answer
your questions. You might want to
look at the documents that we sent you
today or yesterday. I think that
would be what he's talking about.
THE WITNESS: It was in the
packet.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what the title of
the document that you're describing is?
A. No, I'm not sure. It's just
one page.
Q. Is it the ASTM International
Participation and Acknowledgement Form?
A. I'm not sure. If I could see
it, I could tell you.
- - (Exhibit 1284, ASTM
International Participation and
Acknowledgement Form, Bates
ASTM103273, was marked for

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A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell me what this
document is?
A. I believe it's a document that
we would give an individual who is interested
in bringing forward a document to have it
become an ASTM standard.
Q. And is this document the
document that you had described just earlier
being a form for assigning rights to ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that you believe
this document was first used in 2002. Is
that correct?
A. I believe that's about right.
Q. Is this form required for all
members of a task group to fill out?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: No, not to my
knowledge, it's not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is this form required for all
members of a task group who are contributing
to the drafting of a standard under ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Are you

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identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1284.
A. Yes.
Q. This document was produced by
ASTM last night at approximately 9:00 p m.,
and the document is Bates labeled ASTM103273.
And the document is titled: "ASTM
International Participation and
Acknowledgement Form." Is this the document
that you were just describing when you said
there was a form for assigning rights to
ASTM?
A. Yes.
MR. FEE: Objection to the
extent that your preamble is you're
asking him to respond to any of that,
you should ask him that separately.
If you're asking him to respond to
your question is this the document, I
don't have an objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you recognize this document?

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done? Objection to the extent it
calls for a legal conclusion. Also
vague.
THE WITNESS: No, not to my
knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What individuals does ASTM
require to fill out this form?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered. You can answer again.
THE WITNESS: We would give this
form to an individual who is
interested in providing a document to
ASTM to make it into an ASTM standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And so on this form where it
says number 1, "I am submitting my original
material," regardless of that statement, this
document is not required if a member of a
task group were to be drafting original
material for the use in the ASTM standard
draft so long as he was doing so directly
with the task group itself and not bringing
in outside documents?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for

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a legal conclusion. Vague.
Confusing. You can answer if you can.
THE WITNESS: I think I'll
answer it by just saying the purpose
of this form is for when an individual
wants to bring a document into ASTM to
make it into an ASTM standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So this document is not
required of every member of a task group who
contributes original material to an ASTM
standard draft?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. To
the extent it calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE WITNESS: This form would
not be.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When is the last time, to your
knowledge, that this form, Exhibit 1284, was
used by ASTM?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you have any guess as to
what year this form was last used by ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of

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Participation and Acknowledgement Form has
ever been signed and returned to ASTM?
A. I don't know for sure, but I
would guess it has been.
Q. And what's your basis for
guessing that it has been?
A. I vaguely remember instances
where we would have to use this.
Q. And what instances were those?
A. I can't remember.
Q. What other information do you
recollect in conjunction with those instances
where you believe that you had to use this
form as you describe it?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: The only thing I
can remember is members interested in
bringing forward documents that they
were interested in having become ASTM
standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Prior to the introduction of
the Participation and Acknowledgement Form in
approximately 2002, was there any means by
which ASTM had members of task groups who

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foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know any specific
standards that this form was used in
conjunction with?
A. I don't know offhand, no. No
specifics.
Q. Does ASTM retain the signed
copies that it receives of this Participation
and Acknowledgement Form?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Do you know how many of these
Participation and Acknowledgement Forms have
been signed and returned to ASTM?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any approximate
guess as to how many of these Participation
and Acknowledgement Forms have been signed
and returned to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if this

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contributed original contents to the drafts
of ASTM standards but were not themselves
members of ASTM thereby transferred their
copyrights to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent -you shouldn't disclose any
communications you had with counsel
regarding the subject matter. If you
have independent information that you
can share, go ahead and answer with
respect to that.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
any formal forms that we used prior to
2003.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any informal
means by which individuals such as those that
I just described in my previous question
might have transferred their copyright to
ASTM?
MR. FEE: Same objection and
instruction.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you mean by "informal."

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm simply asking because you
say you're not aware any formal forms that
are used prior to 2003. So I'm asking if
there were any informal means by which ASTM
believes that individuals transferred their
copyright to ASTM prior to 2003?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. You shouldn't
disclose your communications with
counsel on this subject, but if you
have other information, you can answer
about that.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe -we didn't feel like we needed any
formal, any formal assignment paper.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why didn't ASTM feel like it
needed any formal assignment paper?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. You shouldn't
disclose any communication you had
with counsel regarding the subject,
but if you have any other information
that's responsive, you can answer

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THE WITNESS: Not at this time.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The basic understanding that
you just described, how is that basic
understanding documented?
MR. FEE: Objection. Again,
instruct you not to disclose
communications with counsel on that
subject, but if you have other
information, you can go ahead and
disclose that.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you mean by "documented."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any documents that
reflect the basic understanding that you just
described concerning the reasons for
individuals contributing in the drafting of
ASTM standards?
A. No, we didn't feel like
documentation was needed.
Q. Does ASTM have any documents to
support its position that there was a basic
understanding between the members who -excuse me, let me rephrase that.

Page 42

1
about that.
2
THE WITNESS: Because we felt
3
that there was a basic understanding,
4
there is a basic understanding today
5
and there's been a basic understanding
6
for as long as ASTM has been around
7
that the reason they come to the table
8
is for the sole purpose of developing
9
an ASTM standard that will receive a
10
logo, and that will be copyrighted and
11
be distributed. Our members buy the
12
resulting standards from ASTM. We've
13
never, that I can recall, have had a
14
member or a nonmember take issue with
15
ASTM selling the resulting copyrighted
16
standard to them and to others. I
17
believe that the reason they come to
18
the table is because they want -19
they're there for the sole purpose of
20
having a standard that will have an
21
ASTM logo on it.
22 BY MR. BECKER:
23
Q. Anything else?
24
MR. FEE: Same objections and
25
instructions.

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Does ASTM have any documents to
support its position that there was a basic
understanding between the individuals who
drafted ASTM standards and ASTM that the
copyright in those standards were to belong
to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Instruct
you not to disclose communications
with counsel on that subject. If
you're aware of other documents, you
can go ahead and respond with respect
to them.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
any documents.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Just a moment ago you were
describing the reasons why people participate
in the drafting of ASTM standards. Could you
describe some of the incentives for
individuals to participate in the drafting of
ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
foundation. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: In general, you
can say that an individual would -- or

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a company or an individual would be
interested in having an ASTM standard
that they could say their product or
service is in compliance with.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any other reasons?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm sure there are
other reasons, I just can't think of
any right now.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM have any forms by
which companies have assigned any copyrights
that they may have in the draft standards to
ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. To the
extent it calls for a legal
conclusion, I instruct you not to
disclose communications with counsel
on this subject, but if you have any
documents to identify, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
any.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM distinguish between

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you might think are responsive to
that. If you have other information,
you can go ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: My understanding
is that the members join as
individuals, and that when they come
to an ASTM meeting, they're
contributing their own knowledge to
the ASTM standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say that's your
understanding, is that also ASTM's
understanding?
A. Yes.
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. FEE: And instructions.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "members join as
individuals," does this also include
individuals who are government employees?
A. Yes.
Q. Does ASTM believe that
government employees who are acting within
the scope of their employment by the federal

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companies and individuals in the -- in its
1
understanding of the granting of copyright
2
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3
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague. To
4
the extent I understand it, I think it
5
calls for a legal conclusion. To the
6
extent you think that requires you to
7
disclose any communication from
8
counsel, you shouldn't do so. If you
9
understand you have non-privileged
10
information that is responsive, go
11
ahead and provide it.
12
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
13
you mean by that question.
14
BY MR. BECKER:
15
Q. Let me rephrase. If an
16
individual fills out a form that ASTM
17
believes assigns a copyright to ASTM but that 18
individual is employed by a company and is
19
acting in the scope of employment, does ASTM 20
believe that a copyright is granted to it?
21
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
22
a legal conclusion. Calls for
23
speculation. You shouldn't disclose
24
any communications with counsel that
25

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government join as individuals when they join
ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Calls for
speculation. Instruct you not to
disclose communications with counsel
on this subject, but you can answer if
you have other information.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
the individual members believe. I
believe our committees believe that
the input they get on the standards
are from that individual, the
individual knowledge that they're
providing, not necessarily a company
or a government position.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what's your basis for
believing that that is what the members of
the committee believe?
A. Just my experience.
Q. What experience are you
referring to?
A. My experience with working with
technical committees.

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Q. Can you provide any specific
examples?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I've managed
probably 20 maybe different committees
during my time. A specific example
would be D04 road and paving
committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And could you, please, describe
what instances you're referring to?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Instances of what?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Instances where you believe
that the participation of government, federal
government employees constituted their
participation in an individual capacity and
not in their capacity as employees of the
federal government?
A. Just like I said, my
experience. I'm not sure how I would be able
to characterize a specific example.
Q. Could you refer to particular
individuals who you -- who were members, who

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relate to?
MR. BECKER: This relates to the
issue of ownership and copyright.
The forms that were provided to
us include -MR. FEE: I'll let you answer
his question.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. FEE: We've been going about
an hour, could we take a short break
now?
MR. BECKER: In just a couple of
minutes or so.
MR. FEE: I'll give you a couple
more questions. I'm ready to take a
break. Go ahead.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What communications do you have
with individuals who were employed by the
federal government and participated in at
least one of those 20 different committees
that you managed that reflected their
participation in an individual capacity and
not as federal government employees?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for

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are employed by the federal government that
you interacted with in your management of
these 20 different committees that you
believe were participating in their
individual capacity and not as employees of
the federal government?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.
I don't know for sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The membership fees for federal
government employees, are these typically
paid by the individuals or paid by the
federal government?
MR. FEE: Objection. This is
beyond the scope, I think, of any of
the topics we're here to have
testimony today. Does this have
something to do with one of the three
topics?
MR. BECKER: I don't believe
this is beyond the scope. This has to
do with -MR. FEE: Which topic does it

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a legal conclusion. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you're asking.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any specific
communications that reflect your belief that
individuals who you interacted with on one of
these 20 different committees that you manage
were participating as in their individual
capacity and not as federal government
employees?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I don't have any
concrete examples that I can think of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And do you have any specific
observations that you can think of that would
show that individuals who participated in one
of these 20 different committees were acting
in their individual capacity and not as
employees of the federal government?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion and compound.
THE WITNESS: Again, just my

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experience in sitting in the meetings
and observing the individual members
contribute to the development of the
standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What about those contributions
of those members gave you that impression?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I'm not thinking
of any one example. I'm just thinking
over time in all of my different
committees and all the different
meetings that I've attended, to me it
appears that people are contributing
off the cuff spontaneously in the
development of the standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When they participate, do
members of the federal government use their
federal government issued e-mail addresses?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: They may or they
may not.

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you mean by "differently."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there a specific
classification that's given to government
employees who participate in the development
of standards under ASTM?
A. They're given a classification
just as all other members are.
Q. And what is that classification?
A. It could either be a producer,
user, general interest, depending upon the
scope of the committee.
Q. Would a federal government
employee count as a producer?
A. I can't think of a situation
where they would be.
Q. Would a federal government
employee count as a user?
A. They may.
Q. Would a federal government
employee count as a general interest member?
A. They may.
Q. In what circumstances might a
federal government employee count as a user
versus a general interest member?

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is it about off-the-cuff
or spontaneous contributions that you think
means that these individuals are
participating in their individual capacity
and not as federal government employees?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: Just my belief
based on what I'm observing that I
think it's a very spontaneous
conversation, people providing
contributions based on what they
believe, not necessarily what their
company believes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are individuals who
participate -- excuse me.
Are federal government
employees who participate in ASTM committees
or task groups classified differently than
other individuals who participate in those
committees or task groups?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what

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A. It depends on the scope of the
committee.
Q. Could you give some examples?
A. On my road and paving
committee, federal highway would be
considered a user.
MR. FEE: We've been going quite
some time. I asked to have a short
break. We're going to take a break
now, no question pending.
MR. BECKER: We can take a
break.
VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is now
11:48. We're going off the video
record.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
12:02. We're back on the video
record.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, do you have any
additional recollections or other information
that you would like to add in response to any

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of the questions we've discussed so far
today?
A. Relative to our members'
awareness that they're assigning copyrights
to ASTM, I believe you had asked that
question prior to 2003.
Q. Yes.
A. ASTM also has an Intellectual
Property Policy that makes our members aware
of that as well.
Q. And when was ASTM's
Intellectual Property Policy first
instituted?
A. I'm not sure, but I believe it
was in the '90s.
Q. Is there anything else other
than ASTM's Intellectual Property Policy that
you believe contributes to ASTM's belief that
there was an understanding that the copyright
of individuals who participated in the
drafting of ASTM standards was owned by ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered. Are you asking him to
repeat all the other things he
mentioned before or are you excluding

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- - (Exhibit 1285, Intellectual
Property Policy of ASTM, Bates
ASTM103277 - ASTM103284, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1285. Is this the
Intellectual Property Policy of ASTM that you
had just mentioned?
A. Yes, I believe this is a
version of it.
Q. Are there multiple versions of
the ASTM intellectual property policy?
A. I believe there were at least
two or three.
Q. This says it was approved on
April 28, 1999. Correct?
A. It does say that.
Q. It says that at the top of the
first page and at the bottom of the last
page. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. FEE: Objection. It says

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those?
MR. BECKER: Were there other
things that he mentioned before?
MR. FEE: Oh, yeah. I'll be
honest. Actually I shouldn't say
that. But you're asking him to list
everything he can think of now again?
MR. BECKER: In terms of
documents.
MR. FEE: Oh, documents.
MR. BECKER: I don't think there
was anything else, was there?
MR. FEE: Your prior question
wasn't limited to documents, that's
why I said that.
THE WITNESS: Is it before 2003?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. I'm not aware of any other
documents.
Q. Is there anything else that you
have to add to your earlier testimony other
than your mention of the IP Policy?
A. I can't think of anything at
this time.

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adopted on the last page, not
approved.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And for the record, this is the
document Bates number ASTM 103277 to
ASTM 103284 titled: "INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
POLICY OF ASTM." It says at the top of page
Bates number ASTM103277 "Approved 28
April 1999." Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this the first edition of
the Intellectual Property Policy of ASTM?
A. I believe there was one prior
to this.
Q. Do you know when the
Intellectual Property Policy of ASTM that
existed prior to this was created?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any idea?
A. I think it was at some point in
the '90s. Maybe mid '90s, but I'm not sure.
Q. Does ASTM have any record of an
Intellectual Property Policy prior to this
one, Exhibit 1285?
A. I'm not sure.

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Q. Do you know how many versions
of ASTM's Intellectual Property Policy have
been formally adopted by ASTM over the years?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know who drafted the
ASTM Intellectual Property Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
You're asking about 1285?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Exhibit 1285.
A. I'm not certain.
Q. Do you know who might have
drafted Exhibit 1285?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I'm not certain.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say you're not
certain, you mean you have no idea?
A. I would assume it would have
been under general counsel.
Q. And who would that have been on
April 28, 1999?

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counsel and when Tom O'Brien took over as
general counsel?
A. I'm not certain.
- - (Exhibit 1286, Intellectual
Property Policy of ASTM International
("Policy"), Bates ASTM103285 ASTM103290, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1286. This is the document
produced by ASTM last night as Bates number
ASTM103285 to ASTM103290, titled:
"INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY POLICY OF ASTM
INTERNATIONAL ('POLICY')."
Do you recognize this document?
A. It's our Intellectual Property
Policy.
Q. What is the relationship of
this Exhibit 1286 to the document 1285 that
we were just discussing?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It appears to be a

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A. It would have been Moe Brooke.
Q. Can you spell that for me,
please?
A. B-R-O-O-K-E.
Q. Do you know approximately what
years Moe Brooke was the general counsel of
ASTM from?
A. Roughly from maybe 1980 to late
'90s.
Q. And who took over as general
counsel after Moe Brooke?
A. Tom O'Brien.
Q. And Tom O'Brien is the current
general counsel. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know when Tom O'Brien
took over as general counsel of ASTM?
A. I think it was in about 2004.
Q. So was there anybody who was
the general counsel of ASTM between Moe
Brooke and Tom O'Brien?
A. I don't believe on staff we had
anybody between Moe Brooke and Tom O'Brien.
Q. Was there a gap of some years
between the time when Moe Brooke was general

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revision.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you tell me what the date
is that's in the top right-hand corner of
this document?
A. It appears to be 3/17/10 maybe.
I assume.
Q. At the bottom of the last page
it says, "As amended by the ASTM
International Board of Directors, October 28,
2003 and April 13, 2010." Is that correct?
A. It does say that.
Q. Does this appear to be a
redline showing the changes to the
Intellectual Property Policy of ASTM that
were instituted in 2010?
A. That's what it appears to be.
- - (Exhibit 1287, Intellectual
Property Policy of ASTM International
("Policy"), Bates ASTM003445 ASTM003448, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1287. This is a document
produced by ASTM as Bates number ASTM003445
to ASTM003448. Do you recognize this
document?
A. It appears to be a draft of the
Intellectual Property Policy.
Q. Why do you say that it is a
draft of the Intellectual Property Policy?
A. Or perhaps a version, I should
say.
Q. Do you know what the date of
this version is?
A. At the top it says, Originally
approved April 1999 [as read], and then on
the back it says, "As Amended by the Board of
Directors, ______2003."
Q. Do you know if this version of
the ASTM Intellectual Property Policy went
into effect?
A. I don't know for sure, this
particular version.
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.

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preparation for your deposition today?
A. I believe it was one.
Q. Do you know which version that
was that you reviewed in preparation for your
deposition today?
A. The current 2013 -- or 2010
rather. The one that was adopted in 2010.
Q. Is the one adopted in 2010 the
most recent version of the ASTM Intellectual
Property Policy?
A. To my knowledge, yes.
- - (Exhibit 1288, Intellectual
Property Policy of ASTM International
("Policy"), Bates ASTM003437 ASTM003441, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1288. This is the document
produced by plaintiffs as Bates number
ASTM003437 to ASTM003441. Do you recognize
this document?
A. Yes.

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THE WITNESS: I don't know. Our
general counsel could probably figure
it out, I think. I don't know if this
is the -- I just don't know if this is
the exact version that was approved -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you review the -A. -- by the board.
Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry, go
ahead.
A. I don't know if this is the
exact version that was adopted by our board
in 2003 since the exact date is not at the
end.
Q. Did you review this document in
preparation for your deposition today?
A. I don't know if I reviewed this
exact document.
Q. Did you review any versions of
the ASTM Intellectual Property Policy in
preparation for your deposition today?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know approximately how
many versions of the ASTM Intellectual
Property Policy that you reviewed in

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Q. What is this document?
A. It's the ASTM Intellectual
Property Policy.
Q. What is the date of this
version of the ASTM Intellectual Property
Policy?
A. It was originally approved in
April of 1999. This particular version was
amended by the ASTM International Board of
Directors on October 28, 2003, and April 13,
2010.
Q. So this is the most current
version of the ASTM Intellectual Property
Policy then?
A. I would think.
Q. Is this the version that you
reviewed in preparation for the deposition
today?
A. Yes.
Q. And on the final page of
Exhibit 1288 it says at the bottom, "As
amended by the ASTM International Board of
Directors October 28, 2003 and April 13,
2010," whereas on the front it says -- at the
top of the front page it says, "Originally

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Approved 28 April 1999."
So this document appears to
list three different versions of the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy. Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your basis for
believing -- excuse me, let me rephrase.
After reviewing these dates, do
you still believe there was a version of the
ASTM Intellectual Property Policy that
existed prior to April 28, 1999?
A. I believe we did.
Q. What is your basis for
believing that there was a prior version of
the ASTM Intellectual Property Policy?
A. I just seem to recall, but I
could be wrong. I thought there was.
Q. If there was a prior version of
the ASTM Intellectual Property Policy prior
to April 28, 1999, that was formally adopted
by ASTM, who would know that?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

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a legal conclusion. You shouldn't
disclose any communications you've had
with counsel regarding that subject.
If you otherwise can respond, go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: I'm not a lawyer,
but in reading page 4 of the policy
part D, I believe that that does do
what you asked.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That is the section V policy
part D?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you, please, compare that
section V part D for Exhibits 1285 and
Exhibit 1288?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague if
that's the question.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you see any differences
between section V part D in the Exhibit 1288
versus Exhibit 1285?
A. I'd have to go through it word
by word. Is there anything particular
that --

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you discuss the existence
of a version of the ASTM Intellectual
Property Policy that existed prior to
April 28, 1999, with anyone in preparation
for your deposition today?
A. No.
Q. Do you know why the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy was revised on
at least two occasions?
MR. FEE: Objection. To the
extent that that calls for you to
disclose communications with counsel,
you shouldn't disclose those, but if
you know otherwise, you can answer.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Looking at Exhibit 1285, the
April 28, 1999, version of the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy, does ASTM
believe that this Intellectual Property
Policy grants it any copyrights in the drafts
of standards created by individuals who are
not employed by ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for

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Q. Do you see that in the 2013 -excuse me, 2010 edition, Exhibit 1288, it
adds the line, "Each member agrees by such
participation and enjoyment of his/her annual
membership benefits, to have transferred any
and all ownership interests, including
copyright, they possess or may possess in the
ASTM IP to ASTM"?
A. I do see that.
Q. Why did ASTM insert this
sentence into the ASTM Intellectual Property
Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. I instruct you
not to disclose any communications you
had with counsel regarding that
subject.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any knowledge about
the revisions that were made to the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy subsequent to
the 1999 version?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Compound. You can answer yes or no.

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THE WITNESS: Maybe.
MR. FEE: Or maybe.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "maybe," what do
you mean?
A. I'm not sure exactly what you
mean. I know I can see right here there were
revisions, I could read these. 1286, like
the difference, the differences, but...
Q. Could you tell me what is the
purpose of the clause at part IV C in
Exhibit 1286?
MR. FEE: Objection to the
extent it calls for a legal
conclusion. To the extent your
understanding of the purpose of any -MR. BECKER: Excuse me.
MR. FEE: -- changes in clauses
is based upon communications with
counsel, I instruct you not to answer.
MR. BECKER: Let me say -- let
me rephrase.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I meant Exhibit 1288.
MR. FEE: Same objections and

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question, go ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: I would imagine
our general counsel would know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you look at Exhibit 1285,
does clause IV C exist in that document?
A. I don't see it.
MR. FEE: Objection. The
document speaks for itself.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know why ASTM introduced
that clause at section IV C subsequent to the
April 28, 1999, version of the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. You shouldn't
disclose any communications with
counsel regarding that subject matter.
If you otherwise know why that was
done, you can answer it.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is ASTM aware of any ASTM
members seeking legal advice to explain any
of the language in the ASTM Intellectual

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instructions.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Let me restate for the record.
In Exhibit 1288, what is the purpose of the
clause at part IV C?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent of
your understanding of the purpose of
that clause is based on communications
with counsel, you shouldn't disclose
that. If you have another basis for
understanding the purpose of that
clause, go ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what
that means. It seems like it's very
legal speak.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. To the extent that your
answering that question would require
you to disclose communications that
you've had with counsel, you shouldn't
disclose those. If you otherwise know
who would know the answer to that

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Property Policy?
MR. FEE: Hold on a second. You
can answer it yes or no or maybe.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
any.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you don't know what the
clause at section IV C means, why would you
expect an ASTM member to know what that
clause means?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Mischaracterizes his
testimony. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM know whether any ASTM
member actually understands this language -MR. FEE: Objection. Calls
for -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. -- in the IP Policy?
MR. FEE: Vague. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know
either way.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM know one way or
another whether any members actually
understand the language in its Intellectual
Property Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I can't think of
any evidence either way.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Returning to Exhibit 1288,
section V D, it says, "If requested by ASTM
International, such Participants and
committee members agree to execute any and
all documents deemed necessary or appropriate
by ASTM International to transfer and
effectuate ownership of all such rights,
including but not limited to copyrights, they
may possibly have in ASTM IP." And the first
page, first paragraph says, "...Standards,
Draft Standards, Adjuncts, Certification
Programs and related materials, Technical
Papers, Research Reports, Manuals, Software,
Training Course Materials and Logos
collectively referred to as 'ASTM IP'"?

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in that draft standard to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
understand that question.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Just to back up a moment.
When -- in your previous answer when you said
that the only situations you can recall are
the ones we talked about earlier using that
form, were you referring to Exhibit 1284, the
ASTM International Participation and
Acknowledgement Form?
A. Yes.
Q. Returning to my question, let's
see if I can clarify. Section V D says, "If
requested by ASTM International, such
Participants and committee members agree to
execute any and all documents deemed
necessary, or appropriate by ASTM
International to transfer and effectuate
ownership of all such rights, including but
not limited to copyrights, they may possibly
have in ASTM IP."
Once a -- once an individual

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A. Where were you reading that
first sentence?
Q. That was from the first
paragraph on the front page under
"INTRODUCTION," it defines ASTM IP as those
items that I just listed.
A. Okay.
Q. So returning to section V D,
are you aware of -- excuse me, is ASTM aware
of any instances where it has requested
individuals to agree to execute any documents
necessary to transfer copyright ownership to
ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: The only
situations that I can recall are the
ones that we talked about earlier
using that form. I seem to remember
that there were instances where we
used that form, but I don't know the
specifics about them.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Subsequent to the drafting of
any standards, has ASTM ever retroactively
asked an individual to assign their copyright

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has contributed to the drafting of an ASTM
standard, has ASTM ever asked an individual
to assign the copyright in a draft document
that he or she has already created to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I really don't
know either way. It's possible.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Other than your reference to
Exhibit 1284, are there other instances in
which ASTM has asked an individual to execute
an assignment of copyright to ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. What instances are those?
A. On our work item registration
process, there is a click through that
requests that that individual assign all
rights to their contributions both past and
present as well as on our membership
application and also on our renewal
application and also on our collaboration
area.
Q. And those are the online forms
that you referred to earlier today as having

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first been instituted in approximately 2003.
Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Who would know if ASTM has ever
asked an individual to assign the copyright
in a draft document that that individual has
already previously created to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Assumes
facts not in evidence. You can
answer.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know
who it would be because it would
depend on which committee it involved.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would a staff member be
involved in that or would it simply be a
volunteer committee member?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Involved in what
exactly?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. In the request for an
assignment of copyright for a work that had
already previously been created by an
individual to ASTM?

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did you speak with any ASTM
staff members about documents that ASTM
believes generally assign copyright to
ASTM -MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. -- in preparation for your
deposition today?
A. In general, yes. And then
there were also a few specific forms, forms
that had actual members renewing or applying
for membership.
Q. And who did you speak with,
excluding counsel, regarding the subjects of
copyright assignments to ASTM in preparation
for your deposition today?
A. Specific examples of?
Q. Both specific and general
examples.
A. In general I talked to Marge
Cassidy, our treasurer.
Q. Anybody else?

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A. And that they would bring it in
1
to ASTM for the develop -- as developing as
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an ASTM standard?
3
Q. They -- or that they had
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developed as part of an ASTM committee but 5
had not executed any assignments to ASTM for 6
that document.
7
A. I'm sorry, is your question who
8
would know that?
9
Q. Yeah, who would know that?
10
A. The staff person, whoever the
11
staff manager for that particular committee
12
would be would have knowledge of that.
13
Q. Would the ASTM general counsel
14
have knowledge of whether an assignment was 15
made concerning a particular work to ASTM 16
subsequent to the creation of that work?
17
A. Maybe.
18
Q. Did you speak with any ASTM
19
staff members about any assignments of
20
copyright to ASTM in preparation for your
21
deposition today?
22
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
23
THE WITNESS: Particular
24
assignments?
25

Page 84

A. Jim Thomas, our president.
Q. Anybody else?
A. John Pace, our vice president
of -- our vice president of publications.
Q. Anybody else?
A. Phil Lively, our vice president
of technology.
Q. Anybody else?
A. Kathie Morgan, our executive
vice president.
Q. Anybody else?
A. I believe that's everybody.
Q. What did you speak with Marge
Cassidy about in preparation for your
deposition today?
A. Just any information that she
would have relative to assignment of
copyright by our members.
Q. And what did you learn from
Marge Cassidy?
A. Nothing.
Q. What did Marge Cassidy say
about assignment of copyright from ASTM
members?
A. She really didn't have any

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knowledge.
Q. Did you approach Marge Cassidy
or did she approach you in preparation for
your deposition today?
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
foundation.
THE WITNESS: I didn't initiate
it and she didn't initiate it. We
called a meeting. Our general counsel
called a meeting.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who was in attendance at that
meeting?
A. Our legal team and Marge.
Q. Do you know the date of that
meeting?
A. It was yesterday.
Q. How long did you meet for?
A. Maybe 10, 15 minutes.
Q. What did you speak with Marge
about at that meeting?
A. Just wanted to get her
perspective on anything that has to do with
assigning copyright.
Q. And what was Marge's

1

(A recess was taken.)

2

- - -

3

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now

4

1:58. We're back on the video record.

5

This begins disc two.

6

- - -

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(Exhibit 1289, Defendant

8

Public.Resource.Org, Inc.'s Amended

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Notice of Rule 30(b)(6) Deposition of

10

American Society for Testing and

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Materials, was marked for

12

identification.)

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14
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- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Mr. Smith, I'm handing you

16

what's been marked as Exhibit 1289. This is

17

the "PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG AMENDED NOTICE OF

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RULE 30(B)(6) DEPOSITION OF AMERICAN SOCIETY

19

FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS." Do you recognize

20

this document?

21

A.

I do.

22

Q.

Have you seen this document

23

before?

24

A.

I believe I have.

25

Q.

And do you understand that you

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perspective?
A. She didn't have much of a
perspective as someone who works in
accounting. But she's a senior staff person
who has been at ASTM for a long time, so I
was interested in that.
Q. How long has Marge Cassidy been
at ASTM for?
A. 50 years.
Q. Did you ask Marge about the
assignment of copyright at ASTM prior to your
tenure at ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did she say about
that?
A. She didn't really remember
anything of significance that I can share.
Q. Do you recall any details about
your conversation with Marge Cassidy about
the assignment of copyright?
A. No.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
12:54. We're going off the video
record. This concludes disc one.
- - -

Page 88

1 are testifying on behalf of ASTM today?
2
A. I do.
3
MR. FEE: Just so the record is
4
clear, he's testifying on behalf of
5
ASTM with respects to Topics 2, 3 and
6
24 only.
7
MR. BECKER: And for the record,
8
Public.Resource.Org had requested that
9
ASTM provide a witness on additional
10
topics beyond 2, 3 and 24, and ASTM
11
has refused to provide that additional
12
witness that was requested.
13
MR. FEE: That's not correct.
14
You've had a witness on every other
15
topic. Jeff Grove. Jeff Grove,
16
G-R-O-V-E.
17
MR. BECKER: And as we've
18
discussed, Public.Resource.Org does
19
not believe that Jeff Grove was a
20
sufficient witness on many of those
21
topics and, therefore, has requested a
22
witness on the topics on which
23
Mr. Grove was deficient.
24
MR. FEE: Suffice to say we
25
disagree with that.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, you understand that
you are responsible for preparing to answer
questions on the topics on which you've been
noticed and which you are appearing on behalf
of ASTM. Correct?
A. Yes, I believe it's 2, 3 and
24.
Q. And have you prepared to answer
questions on Topics 2, 3 and 24?
A. Yes.
Q. And you understand that you are
answering these questions on those topics on
behalf of ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Smith, when did you prepare
to answer topics at deposition today?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Yesterday and on
Tuesday.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Tuesday of this week?
A. Correct.
Q. And when were you first
notified that you would be appearing as the

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A. I reviewed our current ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy.
Q. Did you do anything else to
prepare for the deposition today?
A. I met with the people that I
mentioned previously.
Q. Did you review any other
documents other than the ones that you've
just listed a moment ago?
A. I reviewed documents that had
the Bates numbers associated with them.
Q. Do you know which documents
that have Bates numbers associated with them
that you reviewed?
THE WITNESS: Do we have them
somewhere, the ones that we produced?
MR. FEE: You have to answer his
questions, I can't give you the
answers.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you recall the titles of any
of the documents that you reviewed that had
Bates numbers on them?
A. There were specific examples of

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witness for the deposition today?
A. I think we found out, exactly
the date was sometime in maybe the first week
in July.
Q. Have you done any preparation
for your deposition today between the first
week of July and Tuesday of this week?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do to prepare
during that time period?
A. I reviewed the membership
screens, the renewal screens, the work item
registration pages and -Q. Did you do -- I'm sorry.
A. -- any ASTM intellectual
property files.
Q. And when you say the membership
screens, the renewal screens, and the work
item registration pages, are you referring to
the same pages that you had discussed near
the start of our deposition today?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you say that you
reviewed any ASTM intellectual property
files, what do you mean by that?

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memberships that were filled out by a member.
I think it was a renewal that may have been
completed by a member. Screens that I had
mentioned. There were other documents I'm
not thinking of right now, but yes.
Q. The other documents that you
reviewed, did they all have Bates numbers on
them?
A. Yes.
Q. So were there any other
documents other than the ones that you
described just a moment ago specifically that
you reviewed in preparation for your
deposition today that did not have Bates
numbers on them?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe
so.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When did you meet with Jim
Thomas in preparation for your deposition
today?
A. On Tuesday, whatever day that
was. On Tuesday, last Tuesday.

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Q. What did you discuss with Jim
Thomas when you met with him then?
A. I asked Jim about any memory
that he has relative to assignments of
copyright.
Q. And what did he say?
A. Pretty much what I've explained
to you relative to formally getting
documentation from our members on assignment
from 2003 to the present relative to our
renewal forms, membership application forms,
collaboration area. And then prior to that,
Jim's recollection and feelings were that
copyright assignment from our members was a
very basic understanding that our members had
and our staff have had, the sole purpose they
come to an ASTM meeting is to develop a
standard that's going to result in an ASTM
approved standard with a logo on it that's
copyrighted.
Q. Did Mr. Thomas identify any
basis for his belief that copyright
assignment from ASTM members was a very basic
understanding, as you described it, that ASTM
members had with the purpose of developing an

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Q. Did Jim Thomas say all of that
to you? When I say "all of that," I'm
referring to your previous statement that you
attributed to Jim Thomas, were all of those
statements from Jim Thomas?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: Jim has told me
and I have seen Jim do these
presentations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you spoke with Jim Thomas
on Tuesday, did he say that a member has
never challenged the copyright assertions by
ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you met with Jim
Thomas on Tuesday, did he say that the fact
that ASTM sells standards to its members is a
basis for why there may be an understanding
that by ASTM members, that their
contributions would be copyrighted by ASTM?
A. He had indicated that the fact
that we sell the standards back to our
members is probably a real good indication
that there's a basic understanding from our

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ASTM standard?
A. Can you explain?
Q. Let me rephrase that. Did
Mr. Thomas identify any basis for his belief
that ASTM members had an understanding that
their drafts would be -- that the copyright
for their drafts would be held by ASTM?
A. I think his basis was on the
fact that we've never had a member that has
really questioned, that we can recall, or
challenged ASTM copyrighting something.
Another basis being that we sell our
standards and our members are some of our
biggest customers, so they're buying the
standards from us. Jim Thomas has provided
numerous presentations at different committee
meetings announcing about this lawsuit and
what the ramifications potentially could be.
How it could affect our business model and
how we want to maintain our low entry for
participation, $75 membership, no meeting
fees, and we sell our resulting standards so
that we can support our operations. And the
members, based on the presentations that I've
seen, have embraced that concept.

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members that we are copyrighting the material
that they contribute.
Q. Did Jim Thomas say anything
else to you when you met with him on Tuesday?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I can't think of
anything else specific that he said.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you ask Jim Thomas any
questions when you met with him on Tuesday?
A. No, I don't think I asked him
any questions. I think the meeting was
basically to discuss copyright assignment.
And I don't know if -- it was more of a
discussion, I don't think we had -- I had
questions. I mean, I didn't need to ask
questions. It was a discussion.
Q. A moment ago you referred to
the $75 fee. Do ASTM members -- excuse me,
let me rephrase.
Do individuals have to pay ASTM
a fee to participate in the standard drafting
process?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered.

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THE WITNESS: They have to pay
$75 to be a member, but they don't
have to pay $75 to participate. So an
individual can participate without
paying ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are the differences that
individuals who are members of ASTM enjoy in
their participation in the standard drafting
process versus individuals who are not
members?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: They get to -free volume of standards and they get
to vote. When it's on the ballots,
they get to cast votes. Nonmembers do
not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "on the ballots,"
what ballots are you referring to?
A. On the technical standards.
Q. Are those ballots for voting up
or down on the revision or creation of
particular standards?
A. Correct.

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A. No.
Q. When was that meeting?
A. That meeting was yesterday.
Q. So Mr. Pace provided no
information to you on the subject of
copyright by individuals to ASTM?
A. No.
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. A moment ago you referred to
presentations by Jim Thomas. Can you give
any specific -- can you tell me about any
specific presentations by Jim Thomas that you
think address issues of copyright ownership
by ASTM?
A. I can't recall any
presentations that he did specific on that
subject.
Q. What presentations were you
referring to?
A. At ASTM conferences where we
have breakfast meetings with all of the
individuals attending that meeting, are
invited to a breakfast meeting. And we hold
them in four different committee weeks; in

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Q. Have you had any other
communications with Jim Thomas about your
deposition today other than the meeting you
had with him on Tuesday?
A. No.
Q. And have you had any
communications with Marge Cassidy in
preparation for your deposition today other
than the meeting that you had with her?
A. No.
Q. You said you met with John
Pace, the vice president of publications, as
well in preparation for your deposition
today. Correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. What did you discuss with
Mr. Pace?
A. Any knowledge that he would
have relative to the assignment of copyright
from our members.
Q. What did Mr. Pace say?
A. He didn't provide any input.
He didn't have any knowledge.
Q. Did you discuss any other
issues with Mr. Pace at that meeting?

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January, April, May and June of every year.
I've heard Jim Thomas talk about what I said
at those breakfast meetings.
Q. Do you recall on what dates
Mr. Thomas spoke about those issues at
breakfast meetings?
A. I can't provide specific dates.
Q. Do you have general dates as in
this year, last year or the year prior?
A. I believe it was this year was
mentioned. And it was probably last year as
well.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Thomas
mentioning anything on this subject prior to
last year?
A. I can't say for sure.
Q. Are these breakfast meetings
recorded in any way?
A. No.
Q. Are there any minutes kept of
the breakfast meetings?
A. No, but we have annual -- our
annual meeting -- we may have minutes from
our annual meeting, but I'm not sure. I
think we might have slides actually,

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presentation slides that are available for
our annual meetings.
Q. You said you also meet with
Phil Lively, the vice president of
technology. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you meet with him?
A. I met with Phil yesterday.
Q. What did you speak with Phil
Lively about yesterday?
A. About copyright assignments for
members to ASTM.
Q. And what did Phil Lively tell
you?
A. About his involvement and help
with having the language that we talked about
earlier on the membership application screens
and the membership renewal screens and the
collaboration area screen and the work item
registration screens.
Q. When you say, "the language
that we talked about earlier," are you
referring to language that ASTM believes
assigns copyright from individuals to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for

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helped create the electronic version of the
forms that appear on the ASTM Web site. Is
that what you're saying?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
exactly you mean by that, but
essentially he was able to accomplish
getting the language up onto the
screens so that the members can
acknowledge the statement during the
process.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Mr. Lively draft any of the
language on the membership application or
renewal forms or any of the other forms that
you're describing?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe
so.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What did Mr. Lively tell you
about the work that he did related to
copyright assignments?
A. Just that he could remember
helping with putting the information up on

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a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: The language that
we talked about that is on the
membership applications, yes. That
the members acknowledge when they're
either registering a work item or
joining as a new member or renewing
their membership or opening up a
collaboration area that assigns all of
their past, present and future
contributions to ASTM standards -into ASTM standards to ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What was Mr. Lively's
involvement in the language that you are
referring to?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: He helped us with,
from a technology standpoint, getting
that language up onto our Web site,
onto the screens.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So you're saying that
Mr. Lively was involved in the -- Mr. Lively
did not draft the language, but Mr. Lively

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the Web screens, and he could remember when
he was a staff manager back in the very
beginning time, I think it was early '80s
when he was a staff manager, and kind of
reiterating what I had previously said about
there being an understanding that our members
understand that their contributions to ASTM,
is well understood that we're going to
copyright that material.
Q. Did Mr. Lively provide any
basis for his statement that there was an
understanding in the early '80s that ASTM
would copyright the material provided by
individuals that was incorporated into the
standard drafts?
A. Can you repeat that question?
Q. Yes. Did Mr. Lively provide
any basis for his statement that there was an
understanding in the early '80s that ASTM
would copyright the material provided by
individuals that was incorporated into the
standard drafts?
A. No. I think it was just his
belief just as it was my belief.
Q. Did you discuss anything else

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with Mr. Lively at that meeting?
1
A. Not that I can recall.
2
Q. Did you have any other
3
communications with Mr. Lively in preparation 4
for your deposition today other than that
5
meeting yesterday?
6
A. No.
7
Q. And did you have any other
8
communications with John Pace in preparation 9
for your deposition today other than your
10
meeting with him yesterday?
11
A. No.
12
Q. You said that you also met with
13
Kathie Morgan, the executive vice president, 14
in preparation for your deposition today. Is
15
that true?
16
A. Yes.
17
Q. And when did you meet with
18
Kathie?
19
A. Yesterday.
20
Q. What did you discuss with
21
Kathie at your meeting yesterday?
22
A. We discussed the form that we
23
had here, 1284, and her recollection of what
24
that form was used for.
25

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm not
sure. I think it -- it was -- I think
it was in the early 2000s.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Taking a step back, when you
spoke with Phil Lively yesterday in
preparation for your deposition today, did
you ask him when the Web forms were first set
up that included language concerning
copyright assignments on the ASTM Web site?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
Compound.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe I
asked him.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Mr. Lively tell you
yesterday when the Web forms that include
language concerning copyright assignments on
the ASTM Web site were first set up?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
Compound.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe
he -- I don't believe he said.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Other than Marge Cassidy, Jim

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Q. That's Exhibit 1284 you were
referencing?
A. Yes.
Q. What did Kathie Morgan say
about Exhibit 1284?
A. She thought that that form was
used by ASTM whenever an individual who was
bringing forward a full document into ASTM,
that we would want to have that form filled
out which would assign the copyright of that
information to ASTM.
Q. Did Kathie Morgan tell you
anything else about Exhibit 1284?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Did Kathie Morgan tell you when
Exhibit 1284 was first used by ASTM?
A. I think -- I don't know for
sure. I think our recollection was the same
as mine earlier, that it was about, you know,
maybe prior to 2003.
Q. When you say "prior to 2003,"
approximately what year do you believe that
this form, Document 1284, was first used?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered.

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Thomas, John Pace, Phil Lively and Kathie
Morgan, was there anybody else that you met
with in preparation for your deposition
today?
A. Besides our legal team?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. And other than those
individuals, was there anybody else that you
communicated with in preparation for your
deposition today?
A. No.
Q. Collectively about how much
time would you say that you spent in
preparation for your deposition today?
A. Maybe 15 hours.
Q. Returning to Exhibit 1288, the
ASTM Intellectual Property Policy from 2010,
please turn to section VI B, "Intellectual
Property Other Than Standards." That's Bates
numbered ASTM003440. Can you, please, review
subsections 1a and b from this document. For
the record, that's section VI B1a and VI B1b.
Please tell me when you're done reviewing it.
A. [Reviewing document.] Okay.

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Q. This section says it relates to
"Intellectual Property Other Than Standards,"
and it says, "ASTM International recognizes
different ways to assign intellectual
property rights: ...When individual authors
submit manuscripts of technical papers for
publication by ASTM International, the author
must sign an agreement (Author Agreement)
whereby ownership of the material is assigned
to ASTM International...."
Why does ASTM have a special
agreement for authors of intellectual
property other than standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent you
can answer that question without
disclosing communications with
counsel, you may go ahead and do so.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I would -potentially in part the ASTM general

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM believe that if a
standard was prepared in the course of the
author's employment by the U.S., Canadian or
British governments, that a copyright exists
in that standard?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Instruct you not
to disclose any communications with
counsel regarding that matter. If you
can answer it without disclosing those
communications, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I would
potentially think that our ASTM
general counsel would know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there anybody else who would
know?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

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counsel.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there anybody else who would
know?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. This document again goes on to
say, ".. however, if a technical paper was
prepared in the course of the author's
employment by the U.S., Canadian, or British
Governments, ASTM acknowledges that copyright
does not exist."
Why does ASTM acknowledge that
copyright doesn't exist if the technical
paper was prepared in the course of an
author's employment by one of these federal
governments?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Instruct you not
to disclose communications with
counsel regarding that subject, but if
you have knowledge from some other
source, go ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM recognize a
distinction between standards and
intellectual property other than standards in
terms of its copyrightability when created by
someone who is acting in the course of their
employment by the U.S., Canadian or British
governments?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Confusing. Compound. Calls for a
legal conclusion. Instruct you not to
disclose any communications with
counsel regarding that matter. If you
have other information you can share,
go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I really don't
know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Just to rephrase so we have a
clear question here, does ASTM recognize a
distinction between standards and
intellectual property other than standards in
terms of its copyrightability when created by
someone who is acting in the course of their
employment by the U.S. government?

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MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Compound. Calls for a legal
conclusion. Instruct you not to
disclose communications with counsel
regarding the subject. If you have
other information you can share, go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Calls for speculation.
Objection.
THE WITNESS: Potentially our
general counsel.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you discuss this issue in
preparation for your deposition today?
A. No.
Q. Did you inquire about the
copyrightability of material created by
employees of the federal government in the
course of their employment with the federal
government in preparation for your deposition
today?
MR. FEE: Hold on one second.

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recent version, so let me read that again.
Section VI B1b states, "When
ASTM International contracts, subsidizes, or
agrees with writers, authors, editors, or
others to prepare or otherwise help create
ASTM IP other than technical papers as given
in 1a above, a 'Work for Hire' Agreement must
be signed in which copyright is acknowledged
to reside in ASTM International or will be
assigned to ASTM International."
Have you ever seen one of these
"Work for Hire" Agreements that's referenced
in this clause?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Do you know of any situations
in which a "Work for Hire" Agreement as
described in clause VI B1b has been executed?
A. I don't know of any specific
ones that have been executed.
Q. Did you discuss the existence
of any "Work for Hire" Agreements in
preparation for your deposition today?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of any "Work for
Hire" Agreements that have been executed with

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You can answer it yes or no.
THE WITNESS: I don't think we
did. Not that I -- I can't recall
that we talked about that
specifically.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The next clause of the
Intellectual Property Policy states, When
ASTM contracts, subsidizes, or agrees with
writers, authors, editors, or others to
prepare or otherwise help create ASTM
Intellectual Property other than technical
papers as given in 1a above, a "Work For
Hire" Agreement must be signed in which
copyright is acknowledged to reside in ASTM
or will be assigned to ASTM [as read].
MR. FEE: You skipped the word
"International" there twice, for the
record.
MR. BECKER: Excuse me.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You're right, I'm looking at
the earlier version of the Intellectual
Property Policy, it appears that
international has been inserted into the more

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respect to any ASTM standards?
A. No.
Q. Have any "Work for Hire"
Agreements been executed with respect to any
ASTM standards?
A. I'm not aware of any, but there
could have been.
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Whoever the vice
president of technical committee
operations has been for, you know,
however long you want to go back.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm sorry, so that would be -you're saying that the previous vice
president of technical committee operations
prior to yourself would know, might know if
there had been any "Work for Hire" Agreements
executed in relation to ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: They might. And
our general counsel might know as

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well.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How long have you been the vice
president of technical committee operations?
A. Six months.
Q. Who was the vice president of
technical committee operations prior to you?
A. Kathie Morgan.
Q. How long was she the VP of
technical committee operations at ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Roughly seven
years, eight years.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And who was the vice president
of technical committee operations prior to
Kathie Morgan?
A. Ken Pearson.
Q. How long was he the vice
president of technical committee operations?
A. Probably 25 years. 20 to 25
years.
Q. Do you know who the vice
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Q. Do you know who would know if
an Intellectual Property Policy existed prior
to April 28, 1999?
A. Yeah, I would like to go back,
if I could, to a previous answer that I
provided.
Q. Please do.
A. With respect to my meeting with
Jim Thomas, Jim Thomas also had discussion
during that meeting relative to his belief
that there was an Intellectual Property
Policy prior to 1999.
Q. And did Jim Thomas state what
his basis was for thinking that there was an
Intellectual Property Policy prior to 1999?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I believe he was
just saying he remembered one, he
recalled that there was one.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you do anything to try to
get a copy of any Intellectual Property
Policy that may have existed prior to 1999?
A. No.
Q. Is there anyone other than Jim

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was before Ken Pearson?
A. I think it was Jim Thomas.
Q. Do you know how long Jim Thomas
was the vice president of technical committee
operations?
A. No.
Q. When you spoke with Kathie
Morgan in preparation for your deposition
today, did you discuss "Work for Hire"
Agreements with her?
A. No.
Q. You stated earlier that you're
not certain if an Intellectual Property
Policy existed prior to April 28, 1999. Is
that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes his testimony.
THE WITNESS: You're saying that
I wasn't sure -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. -- whether there was?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah. I thought I recalled
that there was.

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Thomas who would know whether an Intellectual
Property Policy existed prior to 1999?
A. I don't think so.
MR. BECKER: Counsel, given
Topic Number 2 in the Notice of
Deposition, we need somebody who is
able to say definitively whether an
Intellectual Property Policy existed
prior to 1999.
MR. FEE: Do you have any other
questions for him or are you done?
MR. BECKER: No, we're
continuing.
MR. FEE: Okay. Go ahead.
- - (Exhibit 1290, Exhibit A from
Complaint, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1290. This is Exhibit A
from the Complaint filed by plaintiffs. Do
you recognize this document?
A. I don't think I looked at this

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1
document.
2
Q. Well, this is the listing of
3
standards that ASTM is asserting are
4
infringed by Public.Resource.Org.
5
- - 6
(Exhibit 1291, Certificates of
7
Copyright Registration, Bates
8
ASTM000001 - ASTM000168, was marked
9
for identification.)
10
- - 11
BY MR. BECKER:
12
Q. I'm handing you what has been
13
marked as Exhibit 1291. These are the
documents produced as Bates number ASTM000001 14
15
to ASTM000168. Do you recognize this
16
document?
17
MR. FEE: Objection.
18
Mischaracterizes what has been marked
19
as 1291 as one document.
20
THE WITNESS: I think I saw an
21
example of one yesterday.
22
BY MR. BECKER:
23
Q. What is Exhibit 1291?
24
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
25
foundation.

A. It was just in the materials
along with other Bates numbered documents.
Q. Do you recall which Certificate
of Copyright Registration you viewed
yesterday?
A. No.
Q. Was it only one Certificate of
Copyright Registration that you looked at?
A. I believe so.
Q. Did you have any discussions
with anyone in preparation for your
deposition today concerning Certificates of
Copyright Registration by ASTM?
MR. FEE: You can answer it yes
or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And who did you have these
discussions with?
A. I had a discussion with Kathe
Hooper.
Q. Anybody else?
A. Other than the legal team, I
don't think so.
Q. I don't believe that Kathe

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THE WITNESS: They look like
they're examples of Certificates of
Copyright Registration.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I will represent to you that
Exhibit 1291 is all of the Certificates of
Copyright Registration that ASTM has produced
to Public.Resource in this action.
You said you saw an example of
one of these Certificates of Copyright
Registration yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that in preparation for
your deposition?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what context did you see
an example of the Certificate of Copyright
Registration?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what
you mean by "context."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Were you shown an example of
the Certificate of Copyright Registration by
anybody?

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Hooper was one of the people that you listed
as an individual that you spoke with in
preparation for your deposition?
A. Yeah, we -- I didn't -- we did
not have a special meeting with her.
Q. What did you discuss when you
spoke with Kathe Hooper in preparation for
your deposition today?
A. We discussed why, when this
form was filled out, why we had checked off
the box yes to question 2a about "Was this
contribution to the work a work made for
hire."
Q. And why is that, that box 2a
was checked off on the copyright
registrations?
A. She said that the copyright
office had told her to fill out the form that
way.
Q. Did she say why the copyright
office told her to fill out the form that
way?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Was she the one who prepared
the copyright registrations?

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A. I think she started back in
1984, I think she may have said.
Q. Do you know who was filling out
ASTM Certificate of Copyright Registration
forms prior to Kathe Hooper?
A. A name was mentioned yesterday,
but I don't recall the name.
Q. Was that individual Robert L.
Meltzer?
A. I recognize that name, but I
don't know if Robert Meltzer was the one that
was filling out this form.
Q. Do you know who Robert Meltzer
is?
A. He was a former vice president
of publications.
Q. Did Kathe Hooper say what
communications with the copyright office led
to her decision to check box 2a of the
copyright registrations?
A. What led her to fill out this
form that way?
Q. Did she say what communications
she had with the copyright office that led
her to fill out the forms to check box 2a?

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Q. Do you know what had been the
discussion with the copyright office by Kathe
Hooper's predecessor concerning checking box
2a?
A. Do I know?
MR. FEE: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yeah.
MR. FEE: Vague.
THE WITNESS: I only know what
Kathe Hooper told me.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what precisely did Kathe
Hooper tell you about that?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered.
THE WITNESS: That the copyright
office had informed Kathe Hooper's
predecessor to check box yes to the
answer -- to the question on 2a.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Kathe Hooper tell you any
information about what her predecessor had
said to the copyright office that led to the
copyright office telling her to check box 2a?

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A. She had said that her
predecessor had a conversation with the
copyright office, and they had informed her
that it should be filled out that way.
Q. Do you know if Kathe Hooper had
any interactions with the copyright office in
which the copyright office told her to fill
out the registrations by checking box 2a?
A. I don't believe she did.
Q. What is Kathe Hooper's role at
ASTM?
A. She assists the vice president
of publications.
Q. How long has Kathe Hooper held
that role for at ASTM?
A. I can't say for certain, but I
think she said yesterday, since about 1984
she was in that role.
Q. And currently the vice
president of publications is John Pace.
Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know how long John Pace
has held that role for?
A. It's been about 11 years.

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A. No. My understanding is it was
just a question on how to fill out the form.
Q. Did ASTM ever have a lawyer
review the applications for copyright
registration?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you have any knowledge about
what information the copyright office had
obtained from ASTM when it said to check box
2a?
A. No.
Q. If ASTM had provided different
facts concerning the material that was being
copyrighted, that might call for a different
answer to whether box 2a should be checked on
the copyright registration form. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Calls for a legal
conclusion. Calls for expert
testimony. You can answer if you
know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is ASTM listed as the
author under section 2a?

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A. I think the copyright office
told us to fill out the form in that manner.
Q. Did Kathe Hooper tell you that
the copyright office said to fill out the
copyright registration form by putting
American Society for Testing and Materials
under name of author, section 2a?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Kathe Hooper tell you
anything else about listing ASTM under the
name of author field in section 2a?
A. No.
Q. Are there any documents that
reflect ASTM's communication with the
copyright office concerning how to fill out
section 2a of the forms for copyright
registration?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. This is beyond the
scope. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware
of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any letters that
reflect ASTM's communication with the

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concerning how to fill out section 2a of the
forms for copyright registration?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
Maybe the people that worked in our
publications department at the time
that that question was -- at the time
that the copyright office had informed
us.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know who was the
president of publications as of the time that
ASTM communicated with the copyright office
regarding how to fill out section 2a of the
copyright registration forms?
A. I believe it was Bob Meltzer,
Robert Meltzer.
Q. Do you know if Robert Meltzer
is still alive?
A. I don't know for sure.
MR. FEE: Matt, is now a good
time to take a break?
MR. BECKER: We can in just a

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copyright office concerning how to fill out
section 2a of the forms for copyright
registration?
MR. FEE: Objection. Same
objections as before, plus you just
answered that question. You can
answer it again.
THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware
of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any internal memos
that reflect ASTM's communication with the
copyright office concerning how to fill out
section 2a of the forms for copyright
registration?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. It's beyond the scope of
his designation. You can answer if
you know.
THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware
of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know whether any
documents exist that reflect ASTM's
communications with the copyright office

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moment.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Please turn to page ASTM000107
of Exhibit 1291. I will represent to you
that this is the earliest copyright
registration that ASTM has provided to
Public.Resource in this action. Under
section 2-1, in the section that says, "NAME
OF AUTHOR," do you see that it lists
"American Society for Testing and Materials,"
and then says, "Was this author's
contribution to the work a 'work made for
hire,'" and then checks the box yes?
A. Yes.
Q. And then on the next page, do
you see that under the "CERTIFICATION" near
the bottom of the page, it lists "Robert L.
Meltzer," and then has his -- what appears to
be his signature -A. Yes.
Q. -- with a date of January 31,
1980?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your belief that as of at
least January 31, 1980, Kathe Hooper's

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predecessor had had a conversation with the
copyright office in which they instructed her
to check the box saying that the -- scratch
that.
Is it your understanding that
as of at least January 31, 1980, someone at
ASTM had had a conversation with someone from
the copyright office in which that person
from ASTM was instructed to check the box
saying that the work was a "work made for
hire," and listing the name "American Society
for Testing and Materials" under the "NAME OF
AUTHOR" field?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
understand the question. If you could
rephrase it, I'm a little lost.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Sure. Is it your -- after
looking at this document, page ASTM000107 to
108, is it your understanding that as of at
least January 31, 1980, someone at ASTM had a
conversation with someone from the copyright
office in which that person from ASTM was
instructed to check the box saying that the

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Q. Mr. Smith, do you know which
standards at issue in this litigation each
copyright registration that ASTM has provided
corresponds to?
A. I'm not sure I get the
question.
Q. If you look at, we were just
discussing ASTM000107 in Exhibit 1291, that's
a standard, the title of the work is "1980
ANNUAL BOOK OF ASTM STANDARDS, Part
1:Steel-Piping, Tubing, Fittings." Is that
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know how many standards
are in the 1980 Annual Book of ASTM
Standards, Part 1:Steel-Piping, Tubing,
Fittings?
A. No.
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
MR. BECKER: I would disagree, I
don't think this is beyond the scope
of his designation. This has to do
with the -- with copyright ownership

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work was a "work made for hire," and listing
the names "American Society for Testing and
Materials" under the "NAME OF AUTHOR" field?
MR. FEE: Objection. Form. Go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I believe
that's right, I just don't know
when that con -- I don't know when
that conversation exactly was made.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. But you believe it was as of at
least January 31, 1980?
A. I don't know. It could have
been before that. I really don't know.
MR. BECKER: All right. We can
go off the record.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
3:08. We're going off the video
record.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
3:20. We're back on the video record.
BY MR. BECKER:

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and the chain of title. This is -MR. FEE: You just asked him how
many chapters essentially there were
in a book.
MR. BECKER: Well, that's one of
the questions I have, is related to
this particular registration. It's a
registration for a work.
MR. FEE: We disagree for the
record.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there multiple standards
listed in the 1980 Annual Book of ASTM
Standards, Part 1:Steel-Piping, Tubing,
Fittings?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because it's our volume of
standards and volumes contain more than one
standard.
Q. Is there a way to confirm -excuse me, scratch that.
Do you know how to determine

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how many standards are in the 1980 Annual
Book of ASTM Standards, Part 1:Steel-Piping,
Tubing, Fittings?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if
there would be a way to find that out
today.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why not?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
Beyond the scope.
THE WITNESS: I just don't know
if we still have that information from
35 years ago.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How would you go about trying
to determine how many standards were in the
1980 Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Part
1:Steel-Piping, Tubing, Fittings?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I would probably
ask our publications department if we
had any record of the index for that
book. And if we did, you can count
them.

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MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: He might.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who else is in the publications
department other than Kathe Hooper and John
Pace?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Let me rephrase. Who else
other than -A. 50-some people. I don't know.
Q. Let me rephrase. Other than
John Pace and Kathe Hooper, who else might
know whether the -- whether copies of all of
ASTM's publications are kept?
A. I don't know.
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. FEE: Calls for speculation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you look at Exhibit 1290 and
compare it with -- compare the second page of
1290 with ASTM0000107, the copyright

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would you be able to determine
this from anything else other than the book
itself or an index for that book?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM keep complete copies
of every book it has published?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
don't think so.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope.
THE WITNESS: Maybe folks from
our publications department.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would Kathe Hooper know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope.
THE WITNESS: She might.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would John Pace know?

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registration page that we've been discussing,
you will see that in the middle of the page,
page 2 of Exhibit 1290 it lists ASTM A370 as
a designation, the edition 1997e2, "Standard
Methods and Definition for Mechanical Testing
of Steel Products" with a registration
certificate number TX 434-207. Do you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that the
registration number TX 434-207 corresponds
with the registration number in the top
right-hand corner of the page ASTM000107 from
Exhibit 1291?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how ASTM
confirmed -- do you know if ASTM confirmed
that ASTM standard A370 1997e2 was in the
1980 Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Part
1:Steel-Piping, Tubing, Fittings?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if
you're suggesting that because the
registration certificate numbers in

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Exhibit 1291 and A370 in Exhibit 1292,
if you are suggesting because they are
the same certificate numbers, that
that confirms that this standard is in
this volume? Is that what you're
asking me?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Well, I'm wondering if that
does confirm that.
A. I don't know because I'm not
sure how the registration number process
really works. I don't know for sure.
Q. So do you have any way of
telling us which standard that is at issue in
this litigation corresponds to which of the
copyright registrations that ASTM has
provided to Public.Resource?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. You can
answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
don't know.
MR. BECKER: I just want to
state for the record I strongly
disagree that this is beyond the scope

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is suing Public.Resource over in this
litigation?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. You can
answer.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if the 1980 Annual
Book of ASTM Standards, Part 1:Steel-Piping,
Tubing, and Fittings is available in ASTM's
digital library?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know how to determine
what works are available in ASTM's digital
library?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I think it's
searchable.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Searchable by whom?
MR. FEE: Same objection.

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of his designation. Topic 2 says,
"All elements of the Chain of Title of
copyright ownership, including
copyright authorship and ownership of
component parts of the Works-At-Issue
in this case." The issue of what
standards are covered by which
registrations seems very relevant to
the question of copyright ownership,
at least to the extent that ASTM is
claiming copyright ownership.
Are you still objecting that
this is beyond the scope of his
designation?
MR. FEE: Yes. Just like every
other deposition objection, they're
not going to get resolved here, they
get resolved, if necessary, at a later
date.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. In preparation for your
deposition today, did you speak to anybody
about how to correlate the copyright
registrations that ASTM has provided to
Public.Resource with the standards that ASTM

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THE WITNESS: By standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can members of the public
search ASTM's digital library?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
Objection. Vague also.
THE WITNESS: If you pay for it
in a subscription.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So members of the public cannot
search ASTM's digital library unless they pay
for a subscription?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Returning to Exhibit 1291 and
turning to the next page, ASTM 00108, it's
the back of this same copyright registration
form that we've been discussing. The section
near the top that says, "PREVIOUS
REGISTRATION," and it says that -- checks yes
for the box that says, "Has registration for
this work or for an earlier version of this
work, already been made in the Copyright

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Office?" And then it says, "give: Previous
Registration Number," and the registration
number "TX 226-040 Year of Registration 1979"
is provided. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes, eliminates portions
of that section.
THE WITNESS: That reads as you
said.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if the standard
ASTM A370 1997e2 was featured in this other
work that's registered as TX 226-040 with the
year of registration 1979?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know for
sure. I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know how somebody would
determine what work is referenced by this
registration number that's provided?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Calls for speculation. Beyond the
scope of his designation.

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than 1977?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what case would there be
more recent versions?
A. If the committee successfully
balloted a revision to the standard.
Q. In what circumstances would a
revision result in a change of the year
that's listed from 1977 to a different year?
A. If it was approved, if a
revision was approved in a different year, it
would be provided that year date.
Q. But for the version that is
marked as 1977e2, was that version first
released in 1977?
A. It depends when it was -- it
depends. If it was approved at the end of
1977, it could have been published in 1978.
Q. Would it have been published
any later than 1978? Excuse me, would it
have been first published any later than
1978?
A. This particular 1977 version, I
wouldn't have -Q. Yes.

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THE WITNESS: I think it's this,
1
the 1980 Annual Book of ASTM Standards 2
or the 1979 book correlates with this
3
registration.
4
BY MR. BECKER:
5
Q. For ASTM A370 1997e2, what does 6
the 19 -- excuse me, did I say -- let me
7
rephrase that.
8
For ASTM A370 1977e2, what does
9
1977 designate?
10
A. It means that's the year that
11
that version was approved. So A370 may have 12
been a new standard that was first approved
13
in 1977, or it could have been revised and
14
that version was approved in 1977.
15
Q. So 1977 is the year of most
16
recent either approval or revision?
17
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
18
Vague. Mischaracterizes his testimony.
19
THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.
20
There could be -- there could be more
21
recent versions.
22
BY MR. BECKER:
23
Q. For ASTM A370 1977e2, could
24
there have been more recent versions of it
25

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A. I wouldn't have thought that it
would be published any later than 1978.
Q. Does ASTM release a new version
of the Annual Book of ASTM Standards every
year?
A. Yes.
Q. What is contained in the Annual
Book of ASTM Standards? Is that every
standard that ASTM -- excuse me. Is that
every ASTM standard that is current as of
that year?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: The Annual Book of
ASTM Standards comprises a collection
of volumes, so there are specific
volumes of ASTM standards. This Part
1:Steel-Piping, Tubing, Fittings is a
volume.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would volume have been -- would
there have been a 1979 Annual Book of ASTM
Standards, Part 1:Steel-Piping, Tubing,
Fittings?
A. Yes.
Q. Would there have been a 1978

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Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Part
1:Steel-Piping, Tubing, Fittings?
A. I don't know specifically if
there would be -- you know, if it was called
the same thing, a Part 1 or -- because
sometimes we have to reshuffle our volumes
depending -- as they get bigger, we have to
manage the size of each volume. So I don't
know if it was -- would have been called Part
1 or something else, but I also don't know if
the same exact standards that were in there
in 1979 are not necessarily in there in 1980.
Q. Would ASTM A370 1977e2 have
been published in an Annual Book of ASTM
Standards prior to 1980?
A. Most -- yeah, most likely, yep.
Q. Do you know why ASTM has not
provided Public.Resource with the copyright
registrations for any such volumes prior to
1980?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:

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A. Yes. Nothing is technically
significant.
Q. Returning to ASTM000108, just
below where it lists the information under
"PREVIOUS REGISTRATION," it has a section
that says, "COMPILATION OR DERIVATIVE WORK"
which says, "PREEXISTING MATERIAL." And then
below that it says, "1979 Annual Book of ASTM
Standards, Part 1." And then below that,
"MATERIAL ADDED TO THIS WORK," it says,
"Compilation of previously published text
plus additional text."
Do you know what that
additional text is that was added to the 1979
Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Part 1 to
create the 1980 Annual Book of ASTM
Standards, Part 1?
A. I don't know exactly what that
text was, but it's -- my guess is that it
means revisions to the standards that were
included in the 1979 book that are also
included in the 1980 book, but there are also
revisions, and any new standards that were
approved that were not in the 1979 book but
made it to the 1980 book.

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Q. Why are some standards
re-approved?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designations.
THE WITNESS: The technical
committees make the decision as to
whether or not they want to re-approve
the standard through the consensus
process.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And in what situations are
standards re-approved?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: If the committees
want -- it's up to the committees. So
if there's -- if the committees are
happy with the current state of the
standard and they don't feel like
there's any revisions that are
necessary, then they can initiate a
ballot for a re-approval.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And does that re-approval mean
there are no changes from the previous
version?

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Q. Is the basis of your previous
statement that typically the next years'
Annual Book of Standards includes standards
that had been recently approved or changed in
that past year?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes his testimony. Vague
and confusing.
THE WITNESS: Can you restate
that?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yeah. Maybe I'll just ask you,
what's the basis for your guess that the
revisions to the standards that were included
in the 1979 book are -- excuse me.
What is the basis for your
statement that your guess is that any
revisions to the 1979 book of standards that
resulted in the 1980 book of standards is
attributable to new standards or revised
standards within that past year?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Confusing.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
completely understand what your

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question means, but I'll just explain
it that if there -- let's just say,
for example, that there's a standard
that is in the 1979 book. If that
standard is revised, then the revision
is included in the 1980 book. Does
that kind of answer your question?
MR. BECKER: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And generally that's the case
for any successive Annual Book of Standards.
Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Compound.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's the
way it works.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there a log of every
revision over time to any particular standard
from its first creation?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: ASTM is 115 years
old, so I don't think there is a log
that exists for standards that were
approved in our early stages.

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compound.
THE WITNESS: It's internal to
ASTM, but we do make historical
versions of standards available from
our Web site. I believe we started
that from 19 -- it might have been
like 2000.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And who maintains these logs?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It's part of our
automated system.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who is in charge of that
automated system?
A. I guess the system itself, our
technology area.
Q. Would that be the VP of
technology who is in charge of that?
A. Uh-huh. Yes. I'm sorry.
Q. On Exhibit 1291, please turn to
ASTM000149. And when you have that open,
please also flip to ASTM000155. If you look
at ASTM000149 under the section 2-1, it says,
"AUTHOR OF (Briefly describe nature of this

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM keep a log of every
revision over time to any particular standard
from its first creation for those standards
that have been created in the past ten years?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: We might. It's
possible.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know who would know
whether this is the case or not?
A. I just don't know the
particular time frame. You say ten years, I
don't know if it's ten years or what the time
frame is that we have it in our system.
Q. So are you saying that a log
exists but you're not certain how far back it
goes?
A. Correct.
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And is that log publicly
available or is that only internal to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague, and

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author's contribution)," and it says, "Entire
Text." In contrast, if you look at
ASTM000155 under section 2-1 "AUTHOR OF
(Briefly describe nature of this author's
contribution)," it says, "Collective Work."
Do you know why ASTM has said
that under one registration, that they are
the author of the entire text, but under a -this other registration, ASTM000155, ASTM
says that it is a collective work?
A. I don't know why.
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document. Did
you answer? Sorry.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, too.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know why there is
this difference between these two copyright
registrations?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You don't know who would know
the answer to that question?

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MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. Bob
Meltzer maybe since it was from 1980.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Please turn to ASTM000167 of
Exhibit 1291. This is a copyright
registration for "F1193-06 Standard Practice
for Quality, Manufacture, and Construction of
Amusement Rides and Devices." Is this a
registration for a single standard by ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: It appears to be.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is F1193-06 just one standard?
A. Yes.
Q. Why has ASTM here registered a
single standard whereas for the bulk of the
registrations that are provided by ASTM to
Public.Resource they have registered entire
volumes of standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. I think I
need to talk about a privilege issue
before he can respond to that

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copies were available prior to them
being available in the volume, we
began filing separate registrations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. At approximately what time did
ASTM begin filing for separate registrations?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly
sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was it prior to 2013 when ASTM
first started filing for individual
registrations of individual standards?
A. Yes.
Q. The standard listed in
ASTM000167 that we're discussing says its
year of completion was 2006 and date of first
publication was March 3, 2006. But the
effective date of the registration as stated
in the top right-hand corner is April 10,
2013. Was this standard first registered in
2013?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Calls for a legal
conclusion. You can answer.

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question. Go outside for one second.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
3:56. We're going off the video
record. This concludes disc two.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
4:02. We're back on the video record.
This begins disc three.
MR. FEE: If you could just read
back the question so he can respond.
- - (The court reporter read the
pertinent part of the record.)
- - THE WITNESS: My understanding
was that back when we only published
books and we didn't make our standards
available as separates, we would
copyright, we would submit copyright
registrations for the entire volume.
As we began making standards available
as single standards available for
purchase, we began -- and those single

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THE WITNESS: Yeah. I really
don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you look in Exhibit 1291 at
the four registrations immediately preceding
this registration we're discussing as
ASTM 00167, so that's the pages ASTM 00159 to
166. These are all copyright registrations
from 2013 -- excuse me, March 5, 2013, but
they concern standards that were first
published many years prior to 2013. Is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know for
sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if ASTM filed for
these registrations in preparation for
litigation with Public.Resource?
MR. FEE: Objection. I'm going
to instruct him not to answer that
question.
THE WITNESS: I won't answer
that question.

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MR. BECKER: Counsel, why is it
that you're instructing him not to
answer that question?
MR. FEE: If it's done in
anticipation of litigation, it's work
product. You're asking him for work
product.
MR. BECKER: Counsel, I'm not
certain if I agree with that. This is
a public filing.
MR. FEE: It doesn't matter if
you agree with it. I'm not -- you can
say whatever you want, but his
instruction is what it is, he's going
to follow it.
MR. BECKER: Counsel, I'll state
for the record that I believe that
this concerns a public filing and it's
not work product.
MR. FEE: The reason why
something was done is not contained in
these public filings. That's what
you're asking him. If you want to ask
him questions about what appears in
the case of public filings, feel free.

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those.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
any other business reasons for why we
filed these as we would for any other
standard that we produced.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are the business reasons
for filing for Certificates of Registration
for any of these standards under ASTM's name?
MR. FEE: Objection. To the
extent that requires you to disclose
attorney-client communications, you
shouldn't do so. If you're aware of
business reasons separate and apart
from legal communications, you can go
ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: My understanding
is that we copyright these standards
so that we can sell them and support
the operations of the organization.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are ASTM organizational
members?
A. Organizational members are
essentially members that wish to support ASTM

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MR. BECKER: Counsel, I'm not
interested in any attorney-client
communications here. I'm simply
asking about the reasons why ASTM took
a particular action here.
MR. FEE: I've instructed him
not to answer. He said he's not
answering the question.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you still refuse to answer
this question?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the business reason
for filing any of these five registrations
that I just discussed that were filed in
2013?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal -- strike that.
Objection. To the extent that
that requires you to disclose
attorney-client communications, I
would direct you not to do so. If you
are aware of business reasons
unrelated to attorney-client
communications, you can disclose

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through a larger membership fee of $400.
Q. Is there any distinction other
than the payment of $400 that separates
organizational members from individual
members?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: Organizational
members may get some other fringe
benefits that the individual members
don't receive.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do organizational members
constitute organizations as apart from
individuals?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: Organizational
members get to designate a particular
individual on the committee. Others
that would join ASTM from that
organization would be considered
individual members.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do individuals who are not part

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of any organizations typically sign up for
organizational memberships?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can organizational members be
members of technical committees?
A. Yes. As a matter -MR. FEE: There's no question
pending.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm sorry, what were you about
to say?
A. I believe all organizational
members are members of technical committees
Q. Have any organizational members
executed copyright assignments for ASTM?
A. Not to my knowledge. I'm
sorry, can you repeat that question?
Q. Yes. Have any organizational
members executed copyright assignments for
ASTM?
A. Through the membership
applications that we talked about earlier,

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answered.
THE WITNESS: No. Organizations
designate a member, an employee to
participate on technical committees.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What's the difference between
what you just said and an organizational
member designating an individual to
participate on technical committees on its
behalf?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes his testimony to the
extent it purports to summarize it.
You can answer.
THE WITNESS: An organizational
member is an individual, it's not the
organization. So the organization
designates a member, an employee to be
a member to represent it on a
technical committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say the organization
designates an employee to be a member to be a
representative on a technical committee, when
you say representative, do you mean a

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through the renewal applications that we
talked about earlier, if they're involved in
a collaboration area, they would make an
assignment, and if they registered a work
item, they would make an assignment.
Q. So those are the same -- the
same assignment language that would relate to
individual members you're saying would also
relate to organizational members when
organizational members sign up for
membership?
A. Correct.
Q. How do organizational members
participate in technical committees?
A. The same way as participating
members, individual members.
Q. Can you elaborate on that?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't think I
can. There's no difference.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do organizational members
designate an individual to participate on
their behalf?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and

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representative of that organization?
A. Maybe.
Q. Does ASTM have any knowledge as
to whether organizational members, when they
designate an individual to participate in a
technical committee, whether those
organizations are designating that individual
on the organization's behalf?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
May call for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I think it varies.
I think organizational -- again,
organizations that choose to support
ASTM through an organizational
membership designate an individual to
participate on a technical committee.
That individual may be contributing to
the content of ASTM standards as an
individual even as an organizational
member, not necessarily representing
the organization's -- the
organizational views.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. For organizational memberships,
does the organization itself typically pay

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the $400 fee?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know for
sure. Not necessarily. But probably
in most cases, probably.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know of any instance
when a person indicated that he or she
disagreed with his or her organization's
position with respect to an action on a
technical committee?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of any instance
when an individual indicated that he or she
was specifically speaking on his or her own
behalf as apart from the organization that he
or she is part of?
A. No.
Q. Are any U.S. federal agencies
organizational members of ASTM?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who would know if any federal
agencies are organizational members of ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for

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MR. FEE: Objection. This is
beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. BECKER: For the record, I
don't believe that this is beyond his
designation as this concerns an
organizational membership renewal.
MR. FEE: I don't think he was
designated to authenticate checks from
2013, but we'll agree to disagree.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does this document indicate to
you that the Department of Consumer Affairs
from the State of California had paid for an
organizational membership renewal with ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: I guess you could
assume that. I don't know for sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any reason for
thinking this -- that's not what this
document shows?
MR. FEE: Same objections.

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speculation. Also beyond the scope of
his designation.
THE WITNESS: We have an
organizational member directory on the
Web site.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And where on the Web site is
that organizational member directory located?
A. I think it's on the membership
page.
- - (Exhibit 1292, Check, Bates
ASTM049368, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as 1292. This is the document
produced by plaintiffs as Bates number
ASTM049368.
Do you recognize this document?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that this document produced by ASTM
is not authentic?

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THE WITNESS: No, no reason not
to believe.
- - (Exhibit 1293, 2011 Membership
renewal invoices, Bates ASTM086030 ASTM086031, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1293. This is the document
produced by plaintiffs as ASTM086030 to
086031. Can you tell me what this document
is?
A. It is a 2011 membership renewal
invoice.
Q. It is a different 2011
membership renewal invoice on each side.
Correct?
A. Yeah. For different persons,
yeah.
Q. And these persons are employees
of NIST. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his

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designation.
THE WITNESS: It says here
they're from NIST.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. NIST is a federal agency.
Correct?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I believe. Sorry.
I believe so.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And they both give their NIST
e-mail addresses. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: The e-mail
addresses are on this piece of paper.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And the e-mail addresses say
@nist.gov. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the addresses that they
provide are for NIST. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his

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where on these renewal invoices, if anywhere,
language exists that would assign any
copyright that Charles E. Gibson or Benjamin
K. Tsai, the individuals listed on these
membership renewal invoices, might have
granted to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Compound. You
can answer if you know.
THE WITNESS: No, there's
language in the middle of both pages
beginning with "You agree...."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that where it says, "You
agree, by your participation in ASTM and
enjoyment of the benefits of your annual
membership, to have transferred and assigned
any and all interest you possess or may
possess, including copyright, in the
development or creation of ASTM standards or
ASTM IP to ASTM. For additional information,
please see the ASTM IP Policy, available at
www.astm.org"?
A. Yes.
Q. For these membership renewal

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designation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the NIST
address is on these pieces of paper.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And did -- the credit card
information and payer is the same for both
renewal invoices. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: It appears that
the names are the same.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And that name appears to be
Aruella Kuehl, K-U-E-H-L. Aruella is spelled
A-R-U-E-L-L-A -- excuse me, that's Arvella,
A-R-V-E-L-L-A.
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: If that's -- yeah,
that's the way you want to spell it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Could you, please, indicate

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invoices, are individuals required to check
any box showing that they have read and
understand the provision that I just read out
loud?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Compound.
THE WITNESS: I don't see here
where there's a box to check off.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. For the membership renewal
invoices, are the members required to sign
anywhere on the renewal invoice?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't see
anywhere else other than the signature
for where the credit card information
is.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And if an individual pays by
some other means that doesn't require a
credit card, would it not be necessary to
sign this membership renewal invoice at all
in order to get a membership renewal?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Form.

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THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
guess you could sign a check. The
only other way you could pay is
through a check, so you could sign a
check.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It also lists electronic
payments. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So if somebody were to provide
an electronic payment, then they would not
need to sign anywhere on this form. Is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I suppose.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any means through the
membership renewal invoice that ASTM ensures
that it has the understanding and assent of
the individual renewing his or her membership
that any copyright he or she has in the
development or creation of ASTM standards is
to be assigned to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague and

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that we read.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And my question is, is there
any means through the membership renewal
invoice that ASTM ensures that it has the
understanding and assent of the individual
who is renewing his or her membership that
any copyright he or she has in the
development or creation of ASTM standards is
to be assigned to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Same objections. Plus
asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Plus what?
MR. FEE: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Same answer.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It's a yes or no answer.
MR. FEE: No. Answer it however
you want to answer it.
THE WITNESS: Within the 2011
membership renewal invoice, there is
this clause that we feel is -- informs
the members that they're assigning
their copyright to us within their
participation at ASTM.

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confusing. Calls for speculation.
Calls for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: Through the
original membership application,
through the work item registration
process, and through the collaboration
registration process.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. My question was with regards to
the 2011 membership renewal invoice. I'll
read it again.
Is there any means through the
membership renewal invoice that ASTM ensures
that it has the understanding and assent of
the individual renewing his or her membership
that any copyright he or she has in the
development or creation of ASTM standards is
to be assigned to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
Vague and confusing. Compound. Calls
for speculation and calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE WITNESS: Within the 2011
membership renewal invoice, the only
thing that is there is this language

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How does ASTM know that a
member has read that clause?
A. We don't.
Q. How does ASTM know that a
member agrees with that clause?
MR. FEE: Objection to the
extent it calls for a legal
conclusion. Also calls for
speculation. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: We don't know for
sure.
- - (Exhibit 1294, Organizational
Membership Directory, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1294. It's a document
titled: "Organizational Membership
Directory." This is two separate printouts
combined. It is the A to K listing and the L
to Z listing. It's something -- it's over
100 pages long.

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Do you recognize this document?
Yes.
MR. FEE: Objection. You should
really look at the document before you
answer that question.
THE WITNESS: The first page I
do. I mean, if this is just the
organizational directory, I'm aware
that it exists and I recognize it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is this the organizational
directory?
A. It appears to be.
Q. Is this the organizational
directory that you were discussing earlier
today that lists the organizational members
of ASTM?
A. Yes.
Q. This is the -- just to be
clear, this is the organizational membership
directory of ASTM. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Unfortunately I don't think
that this document has page numbers on it,
but if you look, let's see, at the 11th from
A.

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Q.
A.

Okay.
Unless I'm on the wrong page.
MR. FEE: Let me see your page.
THE WITNESS: Maybe you meant
the 12th page in?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes, I meant the next page. Do
you see the U.S. Air Force now?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So does this indicate to
you that the U.S. Air Force is an
organizational member of ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: It would appear to
be.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Looking at this page and the
following two pages, which lists a number of
U.S. federal agencies, please tell me if any
of them participate in standards development
at ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
Compound.

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last page, please. This page, in about the
middle of the page you'll see the U.S. AIR
FORCE, U.S. AIR FORCE NONDESTRUCTIVE
INSPECTION OFFICE, U.S. AMC LOGSA PSCC, the
U.S. Army Engineering Research & Development
Center and the U.S. Army Natick Soldier RD&E
Center. Let me know when you see that.
A. Yes.
Q. Does this indicate to you that
a number of federal agencies are
organizational members of ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of the designation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Such as the U.S. Air Force, for
instance. Correct?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't see the
U.S. Air Force on here.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Just above the middle of the
page, right below the ASTM logo that's in the
middle of the page.
A. I have EPA that's below that.

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THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how
to answer that other than if you had
asked me a specific question. I might
know some of them, but I mean, they're
members, but also I'm not sure how you
define "participation."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do any of these U.S. government
agencies that are listed in those three pages
I mentioned help to draft standards at ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
Vague.
THE WITNESS: For my -MR. FEE: Sorry.
THE WITNESS: That's okay. I
mean, I can give you one example from
my personal experience is the USEPA
participates on our environmental
assessment committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And when you say they
participate on the environmental assessment
committee, do you mean that they assist in
the drafting of standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.

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THE WITNESS: They make
contributions at the meetings.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And do those contributions end
up in the final approved standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't -- I can't
say specifically.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What kind of contributions do
they provide at these meetings?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Oral contributions.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do they provide any written
contributions?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: They may through
the balloting process.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do they vote on standard drafts
or revisions?
MR. FEE: Objection. Form.
THE WITNESS: They may. They
have the opportunity to.

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A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever receive this
e-mail that's Exhibit 1295?
A. I may have.
Q. Do you have any reason to think
that if you had -- that you did not receive
this e-mail produced by ASTM that has your
name listed under the cc line?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that this document provided by ASTM
is not authentic?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that a yes or a no?
A. I don't know. I don't see any
reason why it wouldn't be.
Q. If you turn to the second page,
it says -- this is an e-mail from Sarah
Petre, P-E-T-R-E, to Jeff Grove that says -in which you are cc'd at [e-mail]. Is
that correct?
A. Yes.

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- - (Exhibit 1295, E-mail chain with
attachment, Bates ASTM025633 ASTM025640, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1295.
Could you, please, take a
moment to try to put the pages for the
previous exhibit back in the same order that
they were provided to you, if possible?
MR. BRIDGES: I'll do that.
Hand them to me, I'll do that.
THE WITNESS: I think that's the
order.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you recognize this document
that has been provided to you as
Exhibit 1295? It is Bates number ASTM025633
to 025640.
A. No.
Q. Are you copied on this e-mail
that's Exhibit 1295?

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Q. And it says, "Jeff: Attached
is a summary of all the potentially relevant
standards related to the UE's efforts that
focus on the environmental footprint of
products and services. This list is more
over inclusive. I also included a list of
the EPA members that participate in E50 or
E60." Is that correct?
A. That's what it says.
Q. Then if you turn to Bates
number ASTM025637, the second paragraph from
the top says, "The following representatives
from EPA participate on the relevant ASTM
committees...," and then lists a number of
individuals. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know any of these
individuals that are listed?
A. Yes.
Q. Which individuals do you know?
A. I know Deb Goldblum. I know
Sven-Erik Kaiser. And I know Patricia
Overmeyer.
Q. Who is Deborah Goldblum?
A. She works in the EPA. It's --

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I'm not sure what region it is, but it's in
Philadelphia, office in Philadelphia.
Q. Do you know what her position
is?
A. I don't.
Q. Do you know what Sven-Erik
Kaiser's position is?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what Patricia
Overmeyer's position is?
A. No.
Q. How do you know Deborah
Goldblum?
A. Through my work on Committee
E50 on environmental assessment.
Q. And how do you know Sven-Erik
Kaiser?
A. The same.
Q. And how do you know Patricia
Overmeyer?
A. The same.
Q. How has Deborah Goldblum
participated on the Committee E50?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: She brought

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A. Just roughly maybe 2009. 2008,
2010, in that time frame.
Q. What happened after Deborah
Goldblum brought forward her idea in that
committee?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
It's also beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: I believe the
committee formed a task group to
develop the standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what happened at the task
group to develop that standard?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
Beyond the scope and calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I mean, there were
many task group meetings, they had
discussions about developing content.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What was Deborah Goldblum's
idea for a standard concerning green cleanup,
to the best of your knowledge?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the

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forward an idea for standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What idea was that?
A. It was there were standards for
green cleanup.
Q. So she brought forward the idea
for a standard for green cleanup?
A. Yes.
Q. And what happened with her
idea?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: She presented -my recollection is that she presented
it to the subcommittee in E50.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was that standard -- excuse me.
Was that idea that Deborah
Goldblum presented made into an official
standard under ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I'm
no longer with that committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What year is this that Deborah
Goldblum brought forward that idea?

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scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: It was, I think,
for remediation at a construction
site.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know any other details
about Deborah Goldblum's idea for green
cleanup?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What aspects of remediation at
a construction site did Deborah Goldblum's
idea concern?
MR. FEE: Hold a second.
THE WITNESS: I really -MR. FEE: Hold on.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. Also asked
and answered. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I really don't
know. I'm not a technical person.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Sven-Erik Kaiser provide

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any contributions for standards or standard
revisions for Committee E50?
MR. FEE: Objection. Compound.
Form. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Patricia Overmeyer provide
any contributions for standards for Committee
E50?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't know other
than they -- Patricia participated at
the meetings and attended meetings.
MR. FEE: Matt, why don't we
take a break, we've been going an hour
and a half.
MR. BECKER: Just a moment.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did Patricia vote in the
Committee E50?
A. I don't know.
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if Deborah Goldblum

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marked as Exhibit 1296. This is the document
produced by plaintiffs as Bates number
ASTM068894. Can you tell me what this
document is?
A. It appears to be a membership
application, but I -- an older version of a
membership application.
Q. And what does the -- there's
a -- it looks like a stamp with some
handwriting in the bottom right-hand corner.
It says, "ACCT #," "ORD #," "DEC 02 2008,"
"PROCESSED BY: DG." And then it has some
other numbers associated with it. Do you
know what that is?
A. The account number is the -- is
that individual's membership number. So when
you join, you get assigned a membership
number. I don't know what the order number
is. Dec 02, 2008, is, I guess, the date that
was processed by ASTM, but I don't know for
sure.
Q. And do you know who DG is when
it says, "PROCESSED BY: DG"?
A. No.
Q. Does that designate an

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voted in Committee E50?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if Sven-Erik Kaiser
voted in Committee E50?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. BECKER: We can take a
break.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
4:57. We're going off the video
record.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
5:05. We're back on the video record.
- - (Exhibit 1296, Membership
application, Bates ASTM068894, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been

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individual or a department?
A. I don't know.
Q. Does this stamp indicate that
this form has been processed and entered into
the system -MR. FEE: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. -- at ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
It's beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: I really don't
know the specifics of processing these
forms.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know whether this
stamp in the bottom right-hand corner of this
page designates that this application has
been processed into ASTM's system?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope.
Matt, can you explain to me how
this has anything to do with these
three topics you are supposed to be
talking about today?

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MR. BECKER: Yeah. It's a
membership application. That's one of
the ways that ASTM claims that it gets
assignment of rights.
MR. FEE: And the identity of
who DG is is relevant to all this
because of what?
MR. BECKER: Because this is -this is a feature on the membership
application and I need to understand
what it means.
MR. FEE: I'll let you ask that
question, but I'm not going to allow
too many more questions along these
lines, but go ahead.
MR. BECKER: I think this is
perfectly relevant right here. My
question goes to whether this was
entered into the system and whether
this person is, therefore, a member of
ASTM.
MR. FEE: Do you want to read
back the question? Or do you know
what it is?
THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I'm a

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A. Could have been. I don't know
for sure, though.
Q. Do you know who else might have
been the head of internal sales in 2008?
A. I'm not exactly sure.
Q. Could you show me where, if
anywhere, on this document Exhibit 1296 there
is language that ASTM believes it is assigned
copyright through?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent
that question calls for you to
disclose attorney-client
communications, I'd instruct you not
to do that. If you have an answer
otherwise, you can go ahead and
answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't see the
language on this form that was on the
other forms.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any language on this
page that would transfer copyright from the
individual who is listed on this form, Diana,
I believe it's M-E-N-A-G-E-D to ASTM?

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little -MR. FEE: You can answer.
THE WITNESS: No. Just for
clarity, I'd like it repeated, if
possible.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know whether this
stamp in the bottom right-hand corner of this
page designates that this application has
been processed into ASTM's system?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: Possibly somebody
who works in our customer service
department back in 2008.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who heads the customer service
department at ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Derek Franco is
the director of our, I believe it's
called internal sales.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was Derek Franco the head of
internal sales in 2008?

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MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent the
answer would disclose attorney-client
communications, I instruct you not to
disclose that. You can answer if you
have knowledge of it otherwise.
THE WITNESS: I don't see any
language on this particular form that
would indicate that.
- - (Exhibit 1297, 2010 ASTM
International Committee Membership
Application, Bates ASTM079420, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1297. This is the document
produced by ASTM as ASTM079420. Do you know
what this document is?
A. It says, "2010 ASTM International
Committee Membership Application."
Q. Is there any language on this
document, Exhibit 1297, that would assign
copyright from the applicant to ASTM?

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MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent
that question would require you to
disclose attorney-client
communications, I instruct you not to
do so. If you can answer otherwise,
go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don't see any
language on here similar to the
language that we had talked about
earlier.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The applicant here, Raymond
Ortiz, is an organization member of the
Defense Energy Support Center. Is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document.
THE WITNESS: I don't see how
you're figuring out he's an
organizational member.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Excuse me, let me rephrase
that.
Raymond Ortiz says -- lists his

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that is on the form.
- - (Exhibit 1298, ASTM Application,
Bates ASTM073844, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1298. This is a document
produced by ASTM as ASTM073844. Can you tell
me what this document is?
A. It looks like it's an ASTM
application.
Q. Is there any language on this
document that -- Exhibit 1298, that ASTM
believes assigns copyright from the applicant
to ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent
that question would require you to
disclose attorney-client
communication, I instruct you not to
do so. If you have other responsive
information, go ahead and do so.
THE WITNESS: I don't see the

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organization name as "Defense Energy Support
Center." Is that correct?
A. That would appear to be right.
Q. And he lists a, looks like a
military e-mail address. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: That's what would
appear from this form.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It would appear that Raymond
Ortiz is a member of the military. Is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: I suppose that
looks like that's the case.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And it appears that someone
else, Zoe Fitzsimmonds is paying by credit
card, Visa, for Mr. Ortiz's committee
membership application. Is that correct?
A. That's the name that appears,

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language on this form that was on the
previous forms.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "the previous
forms," are you referring to Exhibit 1293?
A. Correct.
Q. But you're not referring to
Exhibit 1297 or Exhibit 1296. Correct?
A. Correct.
- - (Exhibit 1299, ASTM
Applications, Bates ASTM066848 ASTM066853, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1299. These are the
documents produced by ASTM as ASTM066848 to
ASTM066853. Could you tell me what these
documents are?
A. Looks like they're ASTM
applications.
Q. These are ASTM applications
that are in Spanish. Correct?

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A. Would appear to be that.
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Q. Are they membership applications?
2
A. I believe they are.
3
Q. Is there any language on these
4
membership applications that ASTM believes 5
assigns ASTM any copyright by the applicants? 6
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
7
expert testimony to the extent it
8
requires a translation, to the extent
9
it is in Spanish. Calls for a legal
10
conclusion. To the extent that that
11
question requires the disclosure of
12
any attorney-client communication, you
13
shouldn't disclose it. You can answer
14
it otherwise.
15
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
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BY MR. BECKER:
17
Q. Do you speak Spanish?
18
A. No.
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Q. Have you seen this document
20
previously?
21
A. No.
22
Q. In preparation for your
23
deposition today, had you spoken with
24
anybody -- excuse me, let me rephrase.
25

reports on the use of ASTM standards.
Q. Are those national standards
bodies that you're describing government
bodies or private bodies?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly
sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What uses of ASTM standards do
these national standards bodies report to
ASTM?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly
sure. I just think in general use,
but I've never seen one of the
reports.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "general use,"
what do you mean by that?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: How they may be
utilizing ASTM standards within their
country.
BY MR. BECKER:

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In preparation for your
deposition today, have -- had you
communicated with anyone at ASTM about
membership applications that were not in
English?
A. No.
Q. I will submit to you that there
is no assignment language on this document.
MR. FEE: Move to strike that to
the extent you're ever going to try to
use it for something.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what an MOU
affiliation is?
A. It stands for Memorandum of
Understanding.
Q. What is a Memorandum of
Understanding?
A. It's part of our MOU program
that we have with developing countries.
Q. What is the MOU program?
A. It's roughly that we will
provide on a gratuitous basis standards to
national standards bodies of developing
countries. And in return, they provide us

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Q. When you say how they are
utilizing ASTM standards within their
country, when you say "they," are you
referring to these standards bodies?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
Vague.
THE WITNESS: I believe it's how
they're -- the people are utilizing
them. If they're referenced in
regulation or if they're being used.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say "the people," are
you referring to the actual citizens of
that -- those countries?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope. Matt, I'm going to let him
answer this question, but you are so
far off of the topics now, that this
is going to be the last question on
this topic. You can answer it. Go
ahead.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
- - (Exhibit 1300, Membership
application, Bates ASTM067024, was

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marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1300. Could you, please,
identify this document?
A. It says at the top "Laboratory
Inspection Program," but it would appear to
be a membership application.
Q. I'll note that this document is
produced by ASTM as ASTM067024. Is there any
mention of copyright assignment or ASTM's IP
Policy on this document?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't see that
language on here, no.
- - (Exhibit 1301, Membership
applications, Bates ASTM066871,
ASTM069213, ASTM069058, ASTM080176,
ASTM061450, ASTM063146, ASTM063147,
ASTM065682 & ASTM066345, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:

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respective years, 2007 through 2014?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: There probably
was, yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How do you know that?
A. Well, because I know our
applications, we have applications that have
the language that we spoke about earlier that
was on, was it 1293, Exhibit 1293? We have
copies of membership applications that have
that language on there.
Q. Exhibit 1293 is a membership
renewal invoice. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And a membership renewal
invoice is different from a membership
application. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So when you say that there are
different versions, do you mean that there is
different versions of the membership
applications for each year or that there is a
membership application and there also is a
membership renewal invoice --

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Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1301. This is a
compilation of documents that were provided
by ASTM as single pages. It is one example
from each year from which ASTM has provided a
membership application starting with the 2007
membership application and ending with the
2014 membership application. And the Bates
numbers are ASTM066871, ASTM069213,
ASTM069058, ASTM080176, ASTM061450,
ASTM063146, ASTM063147, ASTM065682 and
ASTM066345.
Are these the ASTM membership
application forms for the years 2007 through
2014?
MR. FEE: Objection to the
extent the witness has cherry picked
pages of membership applications that
were produced to you; to form as well,
and compound.
THE WITNESS: These are versions
of the application from these years.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Were there multiple versions of
the ASTM membership applications for these

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MR. FEE: Objection. Form.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. -- for each year?
A. We have membership applications
for these years that have that language from
Exhibit 1293 on them.
Q. How do you know that there are
membership applications for all of the years
2007 through 2014 that have the same language
that is from the 2011 membership renewal
invoice Exhibit 1293?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Because I believe
we put the language on the renewal
forms and the application forms at the
same time.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why would there be membership
applications that do not have the language
that you're referring to? And to -- let
me -- hold on. Let me clarify.
By the language that you're
referring to on Exhibit 1293, you're
referring to the purported copyright
assignment language that starts with "You

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agree. By your participation in ASTM...."
Correct?
A. Yes.
MR. FEE: Hold on. Objection to
form.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
MR. FEE: It's compound. Calls
for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: The language that
I'm talking about is on Exhibit 1293
that begins with "You agree, by your
participation...."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why do you believe that ASTM
put the language that you're referring to on
the renewal forms and the application forms
at the same time?
A. That's what I recall.
Q. Recall from what?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Just what I
remember.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know when ASTM first
used the language that you're referring to

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Q. How many different forms of
membership application existed in 2007?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know how many different
forms of membership application ASTM had for
the year 2008?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how many forms of
membership application ASTM had for the year
2009?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how many forms of
membership application ASTM had for 2010?
A. No.
Q. How about for 2011?
A. No.
Q. Or 2012?
A. No.
Q. Or 2013?
A. No.
Q. Or 2014?
A. No.
Q. Do you know why ASTM has
different membership application forms?
MR. FEE: Objection. To the

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from Exhibit 1293?
A. Not exactly sure.
Q. Do you have any idea as to what
year ASTM first started using that language
that appears on Exhibit 1293?
A. I thought it was in about 2005.
Q. Do you have any way to confirm
when ASTM began using that language that was
featured on Exhibit 1293?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Not right here,
now.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How would you go about
confirming that?
A. I would ask our general counsel.
Q. Is there any other way that you
would confirm that?
A. Not right now.
Q. Is there anyone who would know
other than ASTM's general counsel when the
copyright assignment language that you're
referring to from 1293 was first used by ASTM
on membership forms?
A. I'm not sure.

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extent that your answering that
question would disclose
attorney-client communications, you
shouldn't disclose that. You can
answer otherwise.
THE WITNESS: No. My experience
has been that if we go to a very
focused individual conference, there
may be a -- it could be the staff
manager prepares an application for
that particular committee and did not
use the most current application.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there a difference between
ASTM membership application forms and ASTM
committee membership application forms?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: We have a type of
membership that's called a
participating membership where you
join technical committees. And then
we also have informational members
that just joined ASTM but they do not
join a particular technical committee.
But I'm not aware of a difference

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between a committee membership
application and a membership
application.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you look in this
Exhibit 1301 at page Bates number ASTM063146
and compare that with ASTM063147 following
it, do you see that ASTM063146 is a 2012
membership application whereas ASTM063147 is
an ASTM committee membership application?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you, please, indicate
where, if anywhere on ASTM063146, the 2012
membership application, there is any language
that ASTM believes assigns it copyright from
the applicant?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent
that requires you to disclose
attorney-client communications, you
shouldn't do so, but you can answer
otherwise.
THE WITNESS: At the top it
mentions that by applying or renewing
your ASTM membership, you acknowledge

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what's that answer?
MR. FEE: Same objection again.
Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: At the top of the
page it says, "YOU ACKNOWLEDGE YOU
HAVE READ AND AGREE TO ABIDE BY ASTM'S
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY POLICY."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. But does it include the text
from the Intellectual Property Policy that it
says that the membership applicant must abide
by?
MR. FEE: Objection. Asked and
answered.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It's a yes or no question.
MR. FEE: He can answer the
question however he feels appropriate.
THE WITNESS: If you're asking
me if the actual text of the
Intellectual Property Policy is on
this membership application, the
answer is no.
BY MR. BECKER:

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you have read and agree and abide by
ASTM's Intellectual Property Policy.
The policy is available in the ASTM
Web site (www.astm.org) and/or by
request to ASTM International
headquarters [as read].
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does this document, ASTM063146,
include any of the text from the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. The
document speaks for itself. You can
answer.
THE WITNESS: The document
speaks for itself. It references the
intellectual -- recognizes and says,
"YOU ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE READ AND
AGREE TO ABIDE BY ASTM'S INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY POLICY."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. But does it include the text
from the ASTM Intellectual Property Policy
that it requires members to abide by?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Same answer.

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Q. This application is filled in
by hand. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: It appears to be.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM ever receive requests
for its Intellectual Property Policy by
anybody other than Public.Resource.Org?
A. Possibly.
Q. Do you know one way or the
other?
A. No.
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. It's also beyond the
scope of the designation.
THE WITNESS: Anyone who has
ever received a request would know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you personally aware of any
requests?
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Not that I can
think of.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. On the next page, ASTM063147,
it has different language concerning the ASTM
Intellectual Property Policy than the 2012
membership application that we were just
discussing. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Hold on one second.
You can answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that language
is different.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The language that's on
ASTM063147 is similar to the language that's
on Exhibit 1293, the 2011 membership renewal
invoice. Is that correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Yep, that looks
correct. Slightly different.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is this language different
for the 2012 committee membership application
than for the 2012 membership application?
MR. FEE: Objection. To the
extent that would require you to
disclose attorney-client

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MR. FEE: Objection to form. I
also object to the extent it calls for
attorney-client communications. You
shouldn't disclose any communications
between you and counsel, but you can
answer otherwise.
THE WITNESS: I believe the
language that is at the top of
ASTM063146 was language that we used
prior to the language that we used
that's contained on ASTM063147.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. But if you then turn the page
to ASTM065682, that's a 2013 membership
application, and it has the same language
concerning the ASTM Intellectual Property
Policy as on ASTM063146. Correct?
A. That's what it looks like.
Q. If you turn the page to the
following page, the 2014 membership
application also has that same language.
Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So ASTM has continued to use
this language into 2014?

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communications, you shouldn't do so.
If you can answer otherwise, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: My perspective is
that they're the same thing. They're
both intended for an individual to
join a particular committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is the copyright -- you say
they're the same thing, the copyright
assignment language?
MR. FEE: Same objection and
instruction.
THE WITNESS: No, I believe the
form is the same thing. It serves the
same purpose. It's an application so
an individual can join the technical
committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And my question was about the
actual language that ASTM believes concerns
copyright assignment. Why is there a
difference in the language concerning ASTM's
IP Policy on ASTM063146 as opposed to the
language concerning ASTM's IP Policy on
ASTM063147?

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MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: That's what it
would appear to me.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who knows how many different
versions exist for the membership
applications during each year from 2007 to
2014?
A. I don't know if anybody knows.
Q. Why is that?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: My experience as
being a staff manager is I don't think
people think about the version of an
application that's being used. I
think it's viewed as a tool that
enables an individual to join a
technical committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who creates the membership
applications such as the 2014 membership
application ASTM066345?
A. I'm not sure who creates it.
Maybe our customer relations. Maybe it's our

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membership department. But ASTM knows.
Q. How can you find out how many
versions of the membership application exists
for each year from 2007 to 2014?
A. I don't know if you can figure
it out. I don't know if there's a way.
Q. Who knows how many different
versions exist for ASTM committee
applications during each year from 2007 to
2014?
A. Did you say who would know how
many versions?
Q. I said -- yes.
A. I don't know who would know. I
don't know if anyone would know.
Q. Has Public.Resource received
all applications and renewals of all
participants in all standards that ASTM is
seeking to enforce in this lawsuit going back
to the first creation of the standards at
issue in this litigation?
MR. FEE: Hold on one second.
Objection. Calls for
speculation. Calls for a legal
conclusion. It's beyond the scope of

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what the question means, collection -"collected for production."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Has ASTM looked for and located
in order to comply with its discovery
obligations in this case all applications and
renewals of all participants in all standards
that ASTM is seeking to enforce in this
lawsuit going back to the first creation of
the standards at issue in this litigation?
MR. FEE: Objection. It's
beyond the scope of his designation.
Calls for speculation. Legal
conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Possibly our
general counsel.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would anybody other than ASTM's
general counsel know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

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his designation. You can answer if
you know.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
Maybe possibly our general counsel.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would anyone other than ASTM's
general counsel know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Has ASTM collected for
production all applications and renewals of
all participants in all standards that ASTM
is seeking to enforce in this lawsuit going
back to the first creation of the standards
at issue in this litigation?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation. Calls for a legal
conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand

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- - (Exhibit 1302, Compilation of
documents, Bates ASTM066829,
ASTM067015, ASTM067321, ASTM067813,
ASTM070124, ASTM071068, ASTM074751,
ASTM075283, ASTM060533, ASTM051140,
ASTM081145, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1302. This is a
compilation of documents produced by ASTM as
ASTM066829, ASTM067015, ASTM067321, 067813,
070124, 071068, 074751, 075283, 060533,
051140, 081145.
MR. FEE: I object to the use of
cherry picked documents assembled in
this manner -MR. BECKER: That's fine.
MR. FEE: -- used as an exhibit.
MR. BECKER: That's fine. There
are many more like this.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Once you've had a chance to

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look at them, can you tell me what these
documents are?
A. I believe these are portions of
our renewal notice that we send each year.
Q. When ASTM members return the
renewal letters that ASTM sends them, do they
sometimes return only portions of the renewal
letters?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: Possibly.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know one way or the
other?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
suppose the people at our customer
relations department that receives the
invoices to process.
BY MR. BECKER:

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The only possible thing I can think of
is that they're only including a
portion of the renewal notice that
pertains to the payment. I believe
it's about a four-page form or
five-page form that has other
information on there.
- - (Exhibit 1303, Compilation of
documents, various Bates from
ASTM069093 to ASTM057841, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1303. This, again, is a
compilation of documents produced by ASTM.
It starts with ASTM069093, and I won't read
all of the page numbers in between, but I'll
simply say that the last page is Bates number
ASTM057841.
MR. FEE: Object to this exhibit
as well as being cherry picked
portions of documents or document
production.

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Q. Did you speak with anyone in
preparation for the deposition today about
individuals who had returned partial
membership invoices that did not include any
discussion of ASTM copyright or ASTM IP
Policy?
A. I believe you asked if I talked
to any of the people who returned partial and
the answer to that is no.
Q. I'll read back my question.
Did you speak with anyone in preparation for
the deposition today about individuals who
had returned partial membership invoices that
did not include any discussion of ASTM
copyright or ASTM IP Policy?
A. No.
Q. Is there any reason why ASTM
would remove any mention of ASTM copyright or
ASTM's IP Policy from membership renewal
invoices once they had received them from
members?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.

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MR. BECKER: And as I noted
before, there are many more documents
that ASTM has produced that look just
like these.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Could you tell me what these
documents appear to be?
A. The same as the previous
exhibit.
Q. When you say "the same as the
previous exhibit," do you mean it is a
partial membership application or partial
membership renewal form?
A. Looks like it's the payment
information from the renewal form.
Q. It appears for some of them
such as the second page ASTM069635, that this
payment section of the renewal form has been
torn off from the rest of the renewal form.
Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q.

How so?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I just don't know
that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know that?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I guess if the
person who processed this back in 2008
would remember, maybe that person.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any way to find out
whether, when these renewal invoices were
sent in to ASTM, if they included just this
single third section of the ASTM renewal
invoice?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No, other than by
asking people that processed these.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM keep the original
copies of renewal invoices that it receives
from members?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.

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Renewal Invoice, Bates ASTM075697, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1304. This has been
produced by ASTM as ASTM075697. Can you tell
me what this document is?
A. It says it's the "2010
Membership Renewal Invoice."
Q. It would appear that somebody
has crossed out language on this renewal
invoice and it includes the language that
references the ASTM IP Policy. Is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document.
THE WITNESS: Yes. It looks
like that information and other
information is crossed out.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does somebody review the
membership renewal invoices when they are
delivered to ASTM?
A. We have someone that processes

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Probably for a certain period of time.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: People on our
internal sales.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Anybody else?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware
of.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know any specific people
in ASTM's internal sales that would know the
answer to that question?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Possibly Derek
Franco.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what is Derek Franco's role
at ASTM?
A. He's the director of internal
sales.
- - (Exhibit 1304, 2010 Membership

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that.
Q. Is a membership renewal ever
refused for crossing out the language
referencing the ASTM IP Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope of his designation. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ASTM attribute any
significance to the IP Policy language being
crossed out in membership invoices that are
returned to it?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. To the extent
that question requires you to disclose
attorney-client communications, you
shouldn't do so. If you can answer
that question otherwise, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. But
our online renewal process does not

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allow you to not acknowledge it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. ASTM continues to this day to
accept mail-in membership renewal forms.
Correct?
A. Yes.
- - (Exhibit 1305, 2011 Membership
Renewal Invoice, Bates ASTM082973, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1305. Can you tell me what
this document is?
A. It says it's the "2011
Membership Renewal Invoice."
Q. And this document has the ASTM
IP Policy crossed out as well. Correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes the document.
THE WITNESS: There's a line
through the section 2.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And section 2 includes the

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produced by ASTM as ASTM101777 to 101779. Is
that you addressed on this e-mail as Smith,
Dan at [e-mail] [as read]?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that you did not receive this
document?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that this document is not authentic?
A. No.
Q. Do you know which retreat this
document is referring to when at the top line
of the e-mail it says, "One more 'talking
points' document for the retreat"?
A. It was most likely for our
spring 2012 retreat.
Q. What was the purpose of the
spring 2012 retreat?
MR. FEE: Objection. This is
beyond the scope. Explain to me how
this has had anything to do with the
three topics.

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AS -- the language referencing the ASTM IP
Policy. Correct?
A. Yes, the statement is in there,
"You agree, by your participation...."
Q. For the record, this is
document Bates number ASTM082973.
MR. BECKER: We can go off the
record.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
6:06. We're going off the video
record. This concludes disc three.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
6:14. We're back on the video record.
This begins disc four.
- - (Exhibit 1306, E-mail chain,
Bates ASTM101777 - ASTM101779, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I've handed you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1306. This is a document

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MR. BECKER: This has to do with
a document that he is included on.
MR. FEE: That's it?
MR. BECKER: We have a 30(b)(6)
designee and we can ask him documents
that relate to his work with ASTM.
MR. FEE: I'm going to instruct
him not to answer that question.
MR. BECKER: This also has to do
with copyright issues.
MR. FEE: Copyright issues. If
it has to do with one of the three
topics, he's not going to answer your
question about it, and I don't think
it has to do with any of the three.
You haven't articulated even an
argument that it does.
MR. BECKER: I disagree, and I
believe that the witness should answer
any questions that are posed to him
that we have. And we are entitled to
be able to ask the witness about his
background and his operations with
ASTM.
MR. FEE: This isn't about his

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background. I'm instructing him not
2
to answer this question.
3
MR. BECKER: We are entitled to
4
ask the witness what we want. As a
5
30(b)(6) witness, we can ask him in
6
his individual capacity, and this
7
e-mail is fair game under that.
8 BY MR. BECKER:
9
Q. Mr. Smith, are you going to
10 answer the questions that we ask regarding
11 this document?
12
MR. FEE: No, he's not.
13
THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
14
MR. BECKER: Counsel, I believe
15
that's in violation of the 30(b)(6)
16
requirements.
17
MR. FEE: The court's order said
18
that this was supposed to be on the
19
three topics that we've been talking
20
about all day. That's what the basis
21
for this deposition is.
22
MR. BECKER: The 30(b)(6) rules
23
allow us to ask questions of the
24
30(b)(6) designee. They don't have to
25
be focused purely on those topics, but

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A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that this document is not authentic?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that you did not receive this
document at the time it was sent?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to
believe that you didn't review this document
at the time that it was sent to you?
A. I'm not sure.
- - (Exhibit 1308, 8/20/14 E-mail
with attachment, Bates ASTM003314 &
ASTM003315, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1308. This is a document
produced by ASTM as Bates number ASTM003314
to 15.

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if they are outside of those topics,
you can always object to them, but you
cannot instruct your client not to
answer the question.
MR. FEE: The court has
specifically ordered what the subject
matter of this deposition is going to
be. It did not include anything other
than those three topics, so I'm
instructing him not to answer.
MR. BECKER: I disagree.
MR. FEE: Disagree.
MR. BECKER: The court
instructed -- - (Exhibit 1307, E-mail chain,
Bates ASTM099502 - ASTM099506, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, I'm handing you the
document that's been marked as Exhibit 1307.
This is the document produced by ASTM as
ASTM099502 to ASTM099506. Do you see that
you are cc'd on this document?

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MR. BECKER: I'll note simply to
counsel that in the court's order
concerning the deposition for today,
the court did not limit the deposition
to any topics. The court simply
denied the plaintiff's motion for a
protective order and ordered that a
deposition was to commence.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, do you see your name
listed under the "To" line for Exhibit 1308?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you receive this e-mail?
A. I'm sure I did.
Q. Mr. Smith, do you -- is this
document as produced by ASTM authentic?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
a legal conclusion. Beyond the scope
of his designation.
MR. BECKER: How is a request
for authentication a -MR. FEE: Subject to the federal
rules of evidence.
MR. BECKER: Authentication?
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. Mr. Smith, is this a correct
copy of the -- this e-mail that you received?
A. It could be. There's only
one -- looks like there's only one metric
attached here.
Q. And is that the document
titled: "GMAC.DOCX," that's the first
attachment listed in the e-mail?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: There's only one
attachment here, GMAC.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is page 2 of this document?
A. It's one of the five metrics
that we have in 2015.
Q. What do you mean "one of the
five metrics"?
MR. FEE: Objection. This is
beyond the scope of his designations.
Does this have something to do with
respect to three topics that are the
subject of today's deposition?
MR. BRIDGES: Absolutely.
MR. FEE: How?

1
Q. And when you say "we," are
2 you -- do you mean ASTM?
3
A. Correct.
4
Q. And who specifically at ASTM is
5 focusing on these five projects?
6
A. Our organization.
7
Q. And what are the five different
8 metrics?
9
MR. FEE: Objection. This is
10
beyond the scope. Did any of the five
11
metrics have to do with ownership of
12
copyrights?
13
THE WITNESS: No.
14
MR. BECKER: I'd like to know
15
what the background of this document
16
is.
17
MR. FEE: Is there any link to
18
the topics that are at issue in this?
19
MR. BRIDGES: He's explained
20
that, Counsel.
21
MR. FEE: It's turned out that
22
it has nothing do with copyright
23
issues.
24
MR. BRIDGES: You don't get to
25
ask him the questions.

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MR. BECKER: This concerns the
2
federal government participation in
3
the creation of standards.
4
MR. FEE: And that is relevant
5
to which of your three topics?
6
MR. BECKER: Copyright ownership
7
and assignments and chain of title.
8
MR. FEE: This is respective
9
works at issue. Do you contend that
10
this document has something to do with
11
the work at issue? It's seven years
12
after the most recent work of issue.
13
MR. BECKER: But it still
14
concerns the, potentially the works
15
that are at issue given some of the
16
discussions that are on this document.
17
MR. FEE: I'll give you a little
18
bit of leeway on this, but frankly I
19
don't see that that's going to be the
20
case. Go ahead.
21 BY MR. BECKER:
22
Q. What are the five metrics that
23 you were mentioning?
24
A. We have five different metric
25 projects that we have focused on in 2015.

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MR. FEE: He's already said it.
2
If you can link this to one of your
3
three topics, go ahead, but he's not
4
going to spend the next ten minutes
5
talking about a topic that's beyond
6
the scope of his designation.
7
MR. BECKER: The document
8
concerns the 1,500 federal agency
9
participants in ASTM technical
10
committees. I would like to know what
11
the background of this document is and
12
why it was created.
13
MR. FEE: If you want to ask him
14
about the 1,500 federal government
15
participants, go ahead.
16 BY MR. BECKER:
17
Q. What are the five metrics?
18
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
19
scope. Go ahead. Let him ask a
20
couple more questions.
21
THE WITNESS: That's fine. This
22
is one metric. We have another metric
23
that is investigating whether or not
24
there would be a value to hire
25
technical expertise within ASTM staff.

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We have another metric that is
piloting new technology for
collaborating in development of
documents. We have another metric
that is evaluating a technology
options for consolidating or having a
content management system, a unified
content management system. And
there's another one that I'm not
thinking of right now.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is -- what metric does
this document concern?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It deals with
coordinating, it says it right at the
top. Addresses government interaction
issues and creates an ASTM Government
Member Advisory Committee to advance
the following objectives.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is the ASTM Government
Member Advisory Committee?
A. There is not one.
Q. So the ASTM Government Member

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would know?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Not for sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was Jim Thomas in charge of
this metric?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. FEE: Calls for speculation.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. The top bullet point statement
on the second page says, "Take inventory of
the existing 1,500 Federal agency
participants in ASTM technical committees to
identify areas of under-representation and
participation."
Do you know if that figure of
1,500 federal agency participants in ASTM
technical committees is correct?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It's probably
ballpark.
BY MR. BECKER:

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Advisory Committee was never created?
A. No.
Q. Does ASTM plan to -- is ASTM
still considering creating a Government
Member Advisory Committee?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope.
THE WITNESS: We're considering
it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who prepared this metric?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Jim Thomas.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would anybody else besides Jim
Thomas know who prepared this?
MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Possibly.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you name anybody else who

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Q. Who would know what the exact
number of federal agency participants in ASTM
technical committees is?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Beyond the scope of his
designation.
THE WITNESS: Perhaps somebody
in our membership department. It's a
figure that changes on a daily basis.
- - (Exhibit 1309, ASTM
Collaboration Area, Bates ASTM103272,
was marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1309. This is the document
that was produced by ASTM last night as Bates
number ASTM103272. It's titled "ASTM
Collaboration Area." And it appears that it
was printed on -- it was printed yesterday.
Could you tell me what this document is?
A. I believe it is a picture of an
image on our Web site that indicates a member
must agree to the language that's stated

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there before joining a collaboration area.
Q. Is this the ASTM collaboration
area language concerning the ASTM IP Policy
and copyright that you had discussed earlier
today in the deposition?
A. Looks like it's very similar,
yeah.
Q. When you say it's "very
similar," is there any differences that you
see between this and the version that is on
the ASTM Web site that you were describing
earlier today?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I meant that this
is very similar to the language that
we talked about earlier that was on
the renewal form.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you described earlier that
participants in technical committees who set
up an ASTM collaboration area would have to
agree to language concerning copyright and
the ASTM IP Policy, were you describing this
document 1309?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.

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the membership application as it currently
exists on the Web?
A. It might be, or it might be
part of it.
Q. What is missing, if anything,
from this document if it is the membership
application on the Web?
A. This appears to be the 2003
version, so I don't think this is the most
recent version. It appears that there is
language at the very bottom of page
ASTM013275, it asks for acknowledgment about
reading and understanding ASTM's Intellectual
Property Policy, and agree to abide by its
terms, [check off box].
Q. It says, "put in weblink"
there. Do you know why it says that?
A. No, I don't know why.
Q. Does this appear to be a draft
of the ASTM membership application as of
approximately 2003?
A. I would -- I can't say for sure
but since it says, "Costs for 2003" up top, I
would say that's probably correct.
Q. Do you know if this precise

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THE WITNESS: When earlier was
that?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. At the start of the deposition.
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I may have been.
I'm not sure I recall the beginning of
the deposition, but I think that's
right.
- - (Exhibit 1310, ASTM Membership
Application, Bates ASTM103274 ASTM103276, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1310. This is the document
produced by ASTM last night as Bates number
ASTM103274 to ASTM103276.
Do you recognize this document?
A. It looks like it's our
membership application that we have on our -on the Web.
Q. Is this a correct depiction of

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version of the ASTM member application was
ever implemented online on the ASTM Web site?
A. I don't know for sure, but I'm
guessing it was since this looks like a
picture from the ASTM Web site.
Q. Who would know for certain?
A. I don't know if anybody would
at this point since it was an online
application.
MR. BECKER: Let's go off the
record.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
6:40. We're going off the video
record.
- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
7:01. We're back on the video record.
- - (Exhibit 1311, Record Retention
Policy, Bates ASTM003501 - ASTM003522,
was marked for identification.)
- - MR. FEE: Before we get started,

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I just want to say that Mr. Smith has
been available to be deposed since
10:00 a.m. this morning. It's now
7:00. We have about 55 minutes left.
We're not staying past 8:00. So if
you're going to take any other breaks,
it better be short. That was a
20-minute break and I think a complete
waste of time. Go ahead.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Mr. Smith, I've handed you
what's marked as Exhibit 1311. This is a
document produced by ASTM as 003501 to 3522.
Could you, please, identify it?
A. It says, "RECORD RETENTION
POLICY."
Q. Is this ASTM's record retention
policy?
A. Yes, I believe it is.
Q. Have you -- did you review
ASTM's record retention policy in preparation
for the deposition today?
A. I reviewed it very briefly.
Q. Do you know what category under
the record retention policy that membership

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of Records," section III.
- - (Exhibit 1312, 11/21/08 E-mail
with attachment, Bates ASTM088320 ASTM088325, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1312. This is the document
produced by ASTM as ASTM088320 to ASTM088325.
It is an e-mail with an attachment that says,
"ASTM International Author/Copyright Owner
Agreement." Is this attachment a correct
copy of the ASTM International
Author/Copyright Ownership Agreement?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague as
to time. Beyond the scope of the
designation as well.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who would know whether this
attachment is a correct copy of the ASTM
International Author/Copyright Ownership
Agreement?

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application forms would qualify as?
MR. FEE: Objection. It's
beyond the scope of his designation.
THE WITNESS: Are you referring
to any particular pages?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes. If you look at ASTM 3502
and 3503, it says, "Types of Records." That
includes "Temporary Records," "Final Records"
and "Permanent Records." And then it also
has B is -- section B, "Types of Records That
have Legal or Regulatory Periods of
Retention," "Accounting and Corporate Tax
Records," "Corporate Records," "Employment
and Employee Records," "Bank Records," and
"Legal Records."
A. I don't know what category
membership application would fall under,
would just -- I'm not sure.
Q. Do you know what category the
ASTM IP Policy would fall under?
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.
I'm not very familiar with the "Types

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MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
scope.
THE WITNESS: I would have to
read it first to possibly give you an
answer.
Our publications department
might be able to tell you whether or
not this is the correct
Author/Copyright Owner Agreement since
it's a journal paper, relevant to a
journal paper.
- - (Exhibit 1313, Web site
screenshots, Bates ASTM001792 ASTM001800, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1313. This document was
produced by ASTM with Bates number ASTM001792
to 1800. What is this document?
A. This looks like it is
screenshots from our Web site for how an
individual would renew their membership.

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Q. Is this a correct copy of the
current language for the renewal -- for the
membership renewal process on the ASTM Web
site?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: These are Web
screenshots, so I'm not sure if this
is the current version or not. It's
kind of hard to read, but it looks
like it was -- I mean, it could be
current.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you review the membership
renewal online application in preparation for
your deposition today?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any reason why you
think that this may not be an accurate copy
of the current membership renewal process on
the ASTM Web site?
A. No.
Q. Looking at Exhibit 1313, on the
second page near the top of the page
ASTM001793, does that depict the membership
renewal screen that discusses a copyright and

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A. This is for joining a technical
committee. It's a participating membership
application. So on page ASTM001802 you
select the type of membership that you want
to purchase. And in this particular instance
the screenshots show that they've selected
the participating member. And then after
that it's an example of what one would see if
they selected the organizational membership.
And then the informational and then the
student.
- - (Exhibit 1315, ASTM Member
Application Forms, Bates ASTM052816,
ASTM052817, ASTM062194, ASTM062195,
ASTM062198 & ASTM062199, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1315. This is a
document -- this is a number of documents
Bates labeled ASTM052816 to 817, ASTM062194
to 195, and ASTM062198 to 199. Would you,
please, tell me what these documents are?

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the ASTM IP Policy?
A. Yes.
MR. FEE: Objection. The
document speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS: It's a little
tough to read, but it would appear
that way.
- - (Exhibit 1314, Screenshots,
Bates ASTM001801 - ASTM001813, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I've handed you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1314. This is the ASTM
document Bates labeled ASTM001801 to 1813
Could you, please, identify this document?
A. This looks like screenshots of
the path that an individual could take to
access the membership application and
complete it and submit it online so that they
can join a technical committee.
Q. Is this for joining a technical
committee or is this for getting an ASTM
membership?

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MR. FEE: Object to the use of
randomly selected documents stapled
together as one exhibit. You can
answer.
THE WITNESS: It says at the top
in English "ASTM MEMBER APPLICATION
FORM."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is this an ASTM member
application form that's in English and
Chinese?
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
expert testimony to the extent you're
asking him to speak to what language
this is.
THE WITNESS: I've never seen
this application before, but it says
ASTM member application form. It's
perhaps something that we used as a
service to have Chinese members or
have Chinese individuals join ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any discussion
of copyright or the ASTM IP Policy in these
forms that are in both English and Chinese

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that I've provided here as Exhibit 1315?
MR. FEE: Same objections, plus
lack of formation -- or foundation.
Sorry.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of
whether there was or there was not.
- - (Exhibit 1316, Regulations
Governing ASTM Technical Committees,
was marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1316. Could you, please,
tell me what this document is?
A. The front page says the
"REGULATIONS GOVERNING ASTM TECHNICAL
COMMITTEES."
Q. What are the Regulations
Governing ASTM Technical Committees?
A. It's essentially this entire
document if it's all included here.
Q. Does it appear to be all
included there?
A. I'd have to go through it, but

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Q. What do staff members do to
assist the members of technical committees?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: General
assistance. Provide them with advice
on regulations, on our form and style
manual. We have interlaboratory study
program that assists our members. A
variety of things. I don't know if
there's anything specific that you
want me to focus on.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does -- how does ASTM staff
members assist individual -- assist technical
committee members in the drafting or revision
of standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: We have -- we
provide them with editorial
assistance, so we'll provide editorial
help within the documents. Our
interlaboratory study program is
responsible for organizing round-robin
studies for collecting the data and
doing the number crunching in order to

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it could. Looks like it.
1
Q. What is the purpose of the
2
Regulations Governing ASTM Technical
3
Committees?
4
MR. FEE: Objection. Beyond the
5
scope. Vague.
6
THE WITNESS: Technical
7
committees follow the regulations and
8
develop member standards.
9
BY MR. BECKER:
10
Q. Do you use the Regulations
11
Governing ASTM Technical Committees in the 12
course of your work with ASTM?
13
A. Yes.
14
Q. How do you use them?
15
A. As staff people, we advise our
16
technical committees on the regulations so
17
that they -- the regulations can be followed
18
in the development of their standards.
19
Q. Do staff members do other
20
things to assist the members of the technical
21
committees?
22
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
23
THE WITNESS: Yes.
24
BY MR. BECKER:
25

Page 268

produce precision statements. Our ILS
team will produce the research reports
which are referenced in the standard.
We will help -- we have a graphics
department that will create graphics
for the standards, for committee
members. We have an up-front editor
that provides a great deal of
assistance if we have a draft that
needs to be put into proper ASTM form
and style. We provide them with
assistance on language for caveats
that are placed in the ASTM standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Anything else?
A. We provide an awful lot of
assistance, but nothing else that comes to
mind at this particular time.
Q. When you say editorial
assistance, what do you mean by that?
A. Grammatical things. We'll
inform members if they have mandatory
language in a non-mandatory section, that
that's outside the form and style policy. Or
vice versa, if they have non-mandatory

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language in a mandatory section, we'll
provide assistance in tweaking that language
so that it's within the form and style
guidelines.
Q. Anything else in terms of
editorial assistance other than grammatical
assistance?
A. We could take a document and
place it and organize it so that it has the
relevant sections as defined in the form and
style manual.
Q. Do you mean to reorganize a
draft standard, is that what you're saying?
A. Yes.
Q. What are -- excuse me.
Anything else in terms of
editorial assistance?
A. Our editors will also take a
document that's been approved through our
balloting process, if it's a new standard,
they'll put it into publication format and
work with the technical contacts to make sure
that everything looks good prior to
publication.
Q. When you say they put it into

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that the same grammatical
changes that you were referring to before?
MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes his testimony.
Vague.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm sorry, what did you say?
A. The editors could work with the
technical contacts to incorporate editorial
changes, grammatical or reorganization of
content.
Q. Who are the technical contacts?
A. Who are they?
Q. Yeah.
A. They are individuals that take
the lead in developing a new standard or in
developing a revision to an existing
standard.
Q. Are those volunteers or are
those employees of ASTM?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Calls for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: They're
volunteers.

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publication format, does that involve any
changes to the content of the draft standard?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It involves taking
what was balloted in the Word format
and placing it into our XML format
that we use for producing PDFs.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that a no?
MR. FEE: Objection. You can
answer the question however you like.
You don't have to answer it yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Did you ask me is
that a no?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yeah.
A. What was -- can you repeat the
original question?
Q. The question was, when you say
you put it into publication format, does that
involve any changes to the content of the
draft standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: It could,
editorial changes, yes.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What did you mean when you said
precision statements?
A. Precision statements are
included in test methods.
Q. What are precision statements?
A. Precision statements include
statements on repeatability and reproducibility.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. For a test method, a statement
of repeatability would be a laboratory taking
the ASTM test method and running the test in
the laboratory several times. And they take
the results of that test and they see how
close each iteration is. And if the results
are very close, then that would indicate good
precision. If it's -- if the results are not
close, then that would indicate poor
precision. So that's what repeatability is.
Then reproducibility is at least six labs
doing the same thing as what I just described
as that one lab. And then the
reproducibility is a statement that analyzes
the results from all six or more labs.
Q. Do the same precision

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statements appear in different standards?
A. In test methods.
Q. For test methods they do?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the work that the
graphics department does?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Graphics, I don't
know exactly everything that they do,
but they will take figures that are
perhaps old from years ago and we will
use them in our technology, update
them to make them more user friendly.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are these figures that were
created by committee members or how are these
figures created that the graphics department
would update?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I would assume by
the committee members.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do members -- do committee
members vote on the changes that -- or
additions that you just described?

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significantly when it's transformed
into the published version.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say it's not changed
significantly, what do you mean?
A. There could be editorial
changes. So that's a service that our
editors perform. When they're putting it
into the published version, they will work
with the technical contact to incorporate any
editorial changes that may have been agreed
upon by the committee.
Q. You mentioned caveats in ASTM
standards. What are those?
A. There are caveats that are in
our form and style manual.
Q. Are those -- what exactly are
the caveats in the form and style manual?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't be able
to name all of them for you, but there
are caveats related to the use of
units, so the standard will -- the -there will be a caveat that will
identify the use of units within a

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MR. FEE: Objection.
Mischaracterizes his testimony. Vague
and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do committee members vote on
the final versions of ASTM standards?
A. I'm not sure what you mean by
"final versions."
Q. Do committee members vote on
ASTM standards, on the final appearance of
ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: The final
appearance, the published format?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Do ASTM committee members vote
on the content that appears in the final form
of ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: The content that
is balloted and approved through our
consensus process is not changed

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particular standard. We have certain
safety caveats and hazardous caveats.
I think we have a caveat that deals
with mercury being used in the
standard. I'm sure there are some
others.
- - (Exhibit 1317, Participating
Membership Applications, Bates
ASTM064686 - ASTM064692, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1317. This document has
been produced by ASTM as ASTM064686 to 64692.
What is this document?
A. This looks like a copy of an
old application that was downloaded and saved
from our Web site and that was filled out by
hand. Best guess.
- - (Exhibit 1318, E-mail chain with
attachment, Bates ASTM087493 ASTM087497, was marked for

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identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1318. Does this exhibit
appear to show an individual who was
attempting to renew his application,
membership application with ASTM by phone -A. I'd have to read it.
Q. -- and e-mail?
A. [Reviewing document.] Looks
like, based on what I'm reading here, they
were trying to renew the membership by phone,
but it doesn't say that it actually happened.
Q. Can ASTM members renew their
membership by phone or e-mail?
A. They could. It's not -- I
don't think it's very common, but they could.
- - (Exhibit 1319, 2011 ASTM
International Committee Membership
Application, Bates ASTM061183, was
marked for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:

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Standards Writing 101 How To [as read]. It
looks like something that was written in
Standardization News back in 2000.
Q. Does this document accurately
reflect the way that standards were developed
at ASTM in approximately March of 2000?
MR. FEE: You're going to have
to read the whole document to answer
that question.
THE WITNESS: This was, I
believe, a way that an individual
could request the development of a new
standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So there were other ways that
an individual could request the development
of a new standard as of March 2000?
A. Yeah, they could make a request
from the subcommittee or by the subcommittee
chairman.
- - (Exhibit 1321, How Standards are
Developed article, was marked for
identification.)
- - -

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Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1319, document produced by
ASTM as Bates number ASTM061183. What is
this document?
A. It says, "2011 ASTM...Committee
Membership Application."
Q. Does this document appear to
have a line crossed through the language
concerning the ASTM IP Policy?
MR. FEE: Objection. The
document speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS: I can't say that
that's a line or whether that's an
indicator towards the individual's
account number.
- - (Exhibit 1320, How To Standards
Writing 101 New Standards, was marked
for identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1320. What is this
document?
A. I'm not sure. It says

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1321. This document was
printed from the ASTM Web site at
www.astm.org/MEMBERSHIP/standardsdevelop.HTML.
What is this document?
A. It looks like maybe an article.
MR. FEE: Objection. Lack of
foundation.
THE WITNESS: Maybe an article
we have on our Web site that helps
provide guidance for our members.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what a US TAG ISO
list is?
A. A US -Q. US TAG ISO list.
A. United States Technical
Advisory Group ISO list, I don't know if that
refers to the list of members that are
serving on the technical advisory group.
- - (Exhibit 1322, 8/13/08 E-mail,
Bates ASTM073852, was marked for
identification.)

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- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm handing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 1322 which has been
produced by ASTM as ASTM073852. Can you tell
me what this document is?
A. It's an e-mail from Tom O'Toole
to our customer service department.
Q. Does this refresh your
recollection at all as to what a US TAG ISO
list is?
A. I'm assuming it's the
membership list, because it says, "...listed
as members of the US TAG to ISO TC 160."
Q. Is that an ASTM membership
list?
A. It appears that it's ASTM
subcommittee C14.92, holds the US TAG to the
ISO technical committee 160.
MR. BECKER: All right. Let's
go off the record and take a short
break.
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
7:44. We're going off the video
record.

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A.

I believe I can.
MR. FEE: Do you want to mark
that?
MR. BECKER: Yeah. Let's mark
this as the next one.
- - (Exhibit 1323, Bates Numbers of
Assignment Documents, was marked for
identification.)
- - BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is this your answer to my
question?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this correct to the best of
your -- is this Exhibit 1323 your answer to
my question concerning Topic 24?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this Exhibit 1323 correct,
to the best of your knowledge?
A. Yes, to the best of my
knowledge.
Q. Who prepared this document,
Exhibit 1323?
A. I'm not sure. I think our

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- - (A recess was taken.)
- - VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
7:49. We're back on the video record.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Looking at Exhibit 1289 which
is the Amended Notice of Rule 30(b)(6)
Deposition, topic -MR. FEE: Hold it. Let him grab
it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Okay. Do you have it?
A. Yeah.
Q. If you turn to page 7. Topic
24 is -- on which you've been designated is,
"The bates numbers of at least one instance
of every form of assignment with which You
claim a person assigned any copyright in the
Works-At-Issue to You."
Could you, please, provide the
Bates number of at least one instance of
every form of assignment with which ASTM
claims that a person assigned any copyright
in the Works-At-Issue to ASTM?

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counsel.
Q. Were you provided this
document, Exhibit 1323, by counsel?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do to confirm that
Exhibit 1323 is accurate?
A. I didn't go through number by
number.
Q. Did you look at any of the
Bates numbers that are listed on this
Exhibit 1323 and confirm that they
corresponded with any assignment language?
A. We looked at them yesterday,
yes.
Q. Did you look at all of them?
A. I believe I did.
Q. All of the Bates numbers that
are listed?
A. I don't know if I looked at the
exact Bates numbers to correspond -- to
correspond with each individual document, but
I believe I looked at all of the documents.
Q. Has there been any impairment
to the operations of the ASTM technical
committees that has arisen in the past five

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years?
MR. FEE: Objection. Vague.
Beyond the scope of his designation.
What topic does this relate to? I'm
instructing him not to answer unless
there's a topic that this relates to.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. In your work with the ASTM
technical committees, are you familiar with
of any difficulties that have arisen in the
past five years that concern the operations
of the ASTM technical committees?
MR. FEE: Can you identify any
topic that that relates to? I take
your silence as refusal to do so.
I'll instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have -- are you going to refuse
to answer that question?
MR. FEE: Yes, he is.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Has there been any lack of
resources for the operations of the ASTM
technical committees in the past five years?

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Q. Are you refusing to answer that
question?
A. Yes.
MR. BECKER: Then I'm going to
end the deposition now and reserve my
right to follow up on those questions -MR. FEE: Just so the record is
clear -MR. BECKER: -- and the
questions that counsel instructed the
witness to refuse to answer.
MR. FEE: Okay. We're now at
six minutes and 50 -- six hours and
55 minutes of testimony, just so the
record is clear. I have one or two
questions for you.
- - EXAMINATION
- - BY MR. FEE:
Q. Would you turn back to 1323.
A. Yes.
Q. I just want to make sure that
we're clear about one question. You see in
the middle, slightly above the middle of that

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MR. FEE: Can you identify a
topic to which that relates? I take
that as a no. I'll instruct you not
to answer that question.
MR. BECKER: I don't have to
identify any topics to which that
relates.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Will you answer that question?
MR. FEE: No, he won't.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. In the scope of your work with
ASTM, are you familiar with any lack of
resources that members of ASTM technical
committees have encountered in the past five
years?
MR. FEE: Can you identify any
topic to which that relates?
MR. BECKER: I do not have to
identify a topic.
MR. FEE: If you don't do so,
I'm going to instruct him not to
answer.
BY MR. BECKER:

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page it says, "Bates Range of Paper
Membership Forms," and it says ASTM034596
through ASTM0088302. Did you review
approximately 54,000 pages in connection with
the creation of this document?
A. No.
MR. BECKER: Object as to form.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Would you turn to Exhibit 1313.
A. I'm afraid I -Q. That is, I believe, the
membership renewal -A. Got it. Got it.
Q. -- pages of their screenshots.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Becker
pointed you to, I believe, language on the
second page of this document and asked
whether or not that had any language related
to the IP Policy or assignments?
A. Yes.
MR. BECKER: Object as to form.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Are there any other portions of
what's been marked as 1313 that relate to the

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2
MR. BECKER: Object as to form.
3
THE WITNESS: There is
4
additional language. This document
5
identifies membership renewal Web
6
screenshots for different types of
7
members. So I identified page 2, and
8
then there's also additional language
9
on page ASTM001796 as well as
10
ASTM001798. And I believe that's it.
11
MR. FEE: I have no other
12
questions.
13
Do you have any other questions
14
or is he done?
15
MR. BECKER: No, no redirect.
16
MR. FEE: Great. Thank you.
17
THE WITNESS: Thanks.
18
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
19
7:57. This concludes the videotape
20
deposition of Dan Smith.
21
- - 22
(Witness excused.)
23
- - 24
(Deposition concluded at 7:57
25
p.m.)

1
I declare under penalty of perjury
2 under the laws that the foregoing is
3 true and correct.
4
5
Executed on _________________ , 20___,
6 at _____________, ___________________________.
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_____________________________
12
DANIEL SMITH
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Page 290
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CERTIFICATE

I do hereby certify that I am a Notary
4 Public in good standing, that the aforesaid
testimony was taken before me, pursuant to
5 notice, at the time and place indicated; that
said deponent was by me duly sworn to tell
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth; that the testimony of said
7 deponent was correctly recorded in machine
shorthand by me and thereafter transcribed
8 under my supervision with computer-aided
transcription; that the deposition is a true
9 and correct record of the testimony given by
the witness; and that I am neither of counsel
10 nor kin to any party in said action, nor
interested in the outcome thereof.
11
WITNESS my hand and official seal this
12 7th day of August, 2015.
13
14
15
____________________________
Notary Public
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003501 258:13
01215 1:3 9:5
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060533 229:15
067813 229:14
070124 229:15
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1111 2:5
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1291 4:1 122:6,13
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133:4 136:8 141:14
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1298 4:13 204:3,9
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69:23
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1313 5:19 261:13,20
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1813 263:16
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19103 1:19
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1970s 22:9,21
1977 147:10,14,15
147:16 148:1,9,15
148:18,23
1977e2 147:9,24
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1978 148:18,20,22
149:2,25
1979 146:3,14 147:3
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1980 63:8 133:22,25
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2002 33:18 36:13
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222:14 238:8,16
278:20 279:5
2012 216:17 218:8
218:13 222:4,21,22
240:19,21
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160:11,21,22 161:9
161:9,11 163:16
172:10 216:19
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213:9 216:21
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65:10 69:10,23 70:1
70:12,21 71:5,19
76:13 119:14 120:3
280 6:9
281 6:11
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286 7:5,5,7
287 7:6,6,7
288 3:5
292 1:25
2a 125:11,14 126:19
126:25 127:8 128:4
128:20,25 129:10
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89:5,10 90:7,10
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31 133:21,25 134:6
134:22 135:12
34 3:9
35 138:14
3502 259:7
3503 259:8
3522 258:13
3:08 135:18
3:20 135:24
3:56 159:3
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400 165:1,3 170:1
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434-207 141:7,11
4:02 159:9
4:57 195:12
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50 17:13 87:9
140:12 288:13
54,000 289:4
55 258:4 288:14
555 2:12
5:05 195:18
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241:4 242:5,15,22
242:24 283:8
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abide 219:1,18,23
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accept 238:4
access 263:20
accomplish 104:7
account 196:15
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accounting 87:4
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accurate 262:18
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accurately 280:4
acknowledge 103:5
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acknowledges
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acting 47:20 48:24
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action 123:8 133:7
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activities 30:25
actual 84:14 209:13
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add 57:25 59:22
added 152:10,14
additional 57:24
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176:21 290:4,8
additions 274:25
address 13:11
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addressed 240:2
addresses 54:21
174:12,17,19,22
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adds 73:3
adjuncts 78:21
adopted 61:1 62:3
67:12 68:7,8 70:21
advance 250:19
advice 76:24 268:5
advise 267:16
advisory 250:19,23
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affairs 172:13
affect 95:19
affiliation 207:14
aforesaid 291:4
afraid 289:10
agencies 170:20,24
183:10 184:20
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agency 174:5 249:8
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ago 27:21,25 28:4
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agree 8:11 17:23,23
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80:18 162:9,12
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214:1,11 219:1,18
220:7 239:4 253:25
254:22 256:14
agreed 276:11
agreement 110:8,8
110:12 115:14
116:7,16 260:14,16
260:25 261:9
agreements 116:12
116:21,25 117:4,20
119:10
agrees 73:3 115:9
116:4 181:6
ahead 41:11 44:10
45:11 46:21 47:12
48:3 52:16 67:10
72:5 75:13 76:1
93:17 110:18
111:24 112:12
113:15 114:7
121:14 135:5
164:16 193:21
198:15 200:16
202:7 204:24
209:21 223:2
237:23 247:20
249:3,15,19 258:9

aided 291:8
air 1:7 183:2,3,16,20
184:8,11
al 8:25
alive 132:21
allow 198:13 238:1
242:23
allows 21:22
ambiguous 275:3
amc 183:4
amended 3:22 65:9
66:16 69:9,22 88:8
88:17 283:8
american 1:2,6,15
3:23 8:24 88:10,18
130:6 133:10
134:11 135:2
amusement 158:10
analyzes 273:23
andrew 2:11 9:16
announcing 95:17
annual 73:4 101:22
101:23,24 102:2
136:10,15 137:13
138:1,18 141:19
144:8 147:2 149:4,7
149:13,21 150:1,14
152:8,15,16 153:3
154:11 176:16
answer 7:3 12:6
13:6 14:10 15:23
22:13 29:23 30:14
31:3 34:5 37:10
38:2,4 41:11 42:12
42:25 45:23 48:3
49:7 52:6 71:15
73:25 74:20 75:13
75:25 76:1,20 77:3
77:13 80:8 82:10
90:3,9,17 92:17
110:16 111:24
112:11 115:1 120:5
124:14 128:20
129:15,20 130:20
131:7,18 132:5
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[answer - assign]
142:20 144:5 154:7
157:14,25 160:25
161:22,24 162:3
163:7,10 164:16
168:14 174:15
176:9 180:15,17,18
180:19 181:10
182:5 185:2 194:4
199:2 200:15,17
201:3,5 202:6
206:14 209:17,20
217:5 218:21
219:13,25 220:2,18
220:24 222:8 223:2
224:6 227:1 231:9
235:15 237:22
241:8,13,19 242:2
242:10 243:4,10
261:5 265:4 271:11
271:12 280:8
284:12,16 286:5,16
286:19 287:4,9,24
288:1,11
answered 37:10
58:23 93:17 97:25
107:25 128:16
131:6 158:2 168:1
180:12,14 193:21
220:4,15
answering 75:21
90:13 163:8 217:1
answers 11:13 13:9
92:19
anticipation 162:5
anybody 63:19,23
84:25 85:2,5,8,11
109:2,9 111:3
112:22 123:25
124:22 143:22
206:25 221:9 225:9
228:22 235:8
251:20,25 257:7
apart 164:14 165:14
170:17

appear 65:13 104:2
184:15 203:3,10,12
206:1 210:8 225:3
233:7 236:11
256:19 263:6
266:23 274:1 278:6
279:7
appearance 275:11
275:15
appearing 90:5,25
appears 54:15 64:25
65:6,17 66:6 70:2
115:24 133:18
158:14 162:24
175:10,13 182:13
196:5 203:21,25
215:5 221:5 233:16
253:20 256:8,10
275:20 282:17
applicant 201:25
202:13 204:16
218:16 220:12
applicants 206:6
application 4:9,12
4:13,16 5:14,22 6:6
81:21,22 94:11
102:17 104:14
179:4 195:21 196:6
196:7 197:18 198:2
198:10 199:9
201:13,22 203:24
204:3,13 209:25
210:9 211:6,7,8,14
211:22 212:18,24
213:15 214:16
216:2,5,9,13,24
217:10,12,15,16
218:2,3,9,10,14
220:23 221:1 222:5
222:21,22 223:15
224:15,21 225:16
225:23 226:3
233:12 255:12,23
256:1,7,20 257:1,9
259:1,18 262:14

263:20 264:3,14
265:6,10,17,18
277:19 278:7,8,22
279:6
applications 4:15,18
6:2 25:1,5,11 27:18
103:4 129:4 166:25
167:1 205:12,23,24
206:2,5 207:4
210:19 211:18,25
212:8,8,11,23 213:4
213:8,19 225:7,22
226:9,17 227:16
228:6 277:9
applying 84:14
218:24
approach 86:2,3
appropriate 78:15
80:20 220:19
approval 147:17
151:21,23
approve 151:7
approved 1:21
60:18 61:2,8 66:15
67:5 69:7 70:1
94:19 147:12,13,15
148:10,11,17 151:2
151:12 152:24
153:4 154:25 186:5
270:19 275:24
approximate 39:17
approximately 8:16
20:3 23:11 28:14
29:1 33:18 35:8
40:24 63:5 67:23
82:1 107:22 160:5
256:21 280:6 289:4
april 60:19 61:9
62:25 65:11 66:15
69:8,10,23 70:1,12
70:21 71:5,19 76:13
101:1 119:14 120:3
160:20
area 5:12 23:9,13
24:6,19 26:22 27:1

33:18 81:23 94:12
102:19 103:9
156:17 167:3
253:12,20 254:1,3
254:21
areas 21:21 22:25
27:9 252:17
argument 241:17
arisen 285:25
286:10
armstrong 2:20
8:13
army 183:5,6
article 6:10 280:23
281:7,10
articulated 241:16
aruella 175:14,14
arvella 175:15
asked 25:6 37:9
57:8 58:5,22 72:9
79:25 81:2,12 82:5
93:16 94:3 97:11,24
107:24 108:14
128:15 137:2 158:1
167:25 180:12,14
185:3 193:20 220:4
220:14 231:7
289:18
asking 11:12 35:19
35:21 42:2,4 53:3
58:23 59:6 62:10
142:6 162:6,23
163:4 220:20
234:19 265:14
asks 256:12
aspects 193:12
assembled 229:18
assent 178:20
179:14 180:6
asserting 122:3
assertions 96:13
assessment 185:19
185:22 190:15
assign 25:2,6 31:11
79:25 81:3,18 82:5
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[assign - astm]
84:6 107:10 110:4
assumes 82:8
176:2 201:24
assuming 282:12
assigned 10:6 29:13 astm 1:3 2:18 3:9,12
46:13 110:9 115:16
3:14,17,19 4:11,13
116:10 176:17
4:15 5:12,13,22,25
178:24 179:18
6:5 9:20,24 14:5,7
180:10 196:17
14:17 18:7,22,25
200:8 283:19,24
19:10,13,16 20:20
assigning 30:6 31:21
20:21 21:5,6,8
31:25 32:12 35:14
22:24 23:4,7,14,18
36:10 58:4 86:24
23:21 24:1,4,7,11
180:23
24:15,21 25:2,5,7
assignment 6:13
26:15 27:3,9,17,18
42:16,19 81:13
27:22 28:1,5,8,16
82:23 83:15 85:17
28:17,19 29:6,8,11
85:23 87:11,20 94:9
29:13,16,16 30:3,4
94:14,23 97:13
30:5,7,17,24 31:6
99:19 167:4,5,7
31:10,11,12,22 32:1
198:4 207:8 210:12
32:5,6,10,14,15,22
213:25 215:22
32:25 33:1,5,9
223:10,21 283:18
34:17,22 35:8,10,15
283:23 284:8
36:7,10,24 37:7,14
285:12
37:14,21 38:6,7,11
assignments 26:2
38:21,24 39:9,15,20
83:6,20,25 84:18
40:2,19,25 41:2,3,4
94:4 102:11 104:23
41:21 42:5,7,18
108:10,18 166:18
43:6,9,12,15,21
166:22 247:7
44:19,22 45:1,4,4,6
289:20 290:1
45:18,21 46:2,12,15
assigns 47:18
46:25 47:3,17,18,20
102:24 103:9
48:7,9,23 49:2
204:16 206:6
55:20 56:6 58:5,8
218:15
58:21,21 60:3,10,15
assist 185:23 267:21
61:5,6,7,12,16,22
268:2,14,14
62:3,8 63:7,17,20
assistance 268:5,20
64:6,14,16 65:9,15
269:9,12,17,20
65:20 66:3,19 67:20
270:2,6,7,17
67:24 68:9,14 69:2
assists 127:12 268:8
69:5,9,13,22 70:3
associated 92:11,13
70:11,16,20,22 71:3
196:13
71:8,19,20,24 73:8
association 1:5
73:8,10,11,21 76:11
assume 12:7 62:22
76:13,23,23,25 77:9
65:7 172:20 274:20
77:16,16 78:2,12,16
78:19,25 79:5,9,13

79:24 80:1,12,17,20
80:24 81:1,2,4,12
81:13 82:4,7,25
83:2,3,5,6,14,16,19
83:21 84:4,5,7,18
85:23 87:5,8,11,12
89:1,5,9,10 90:6,14
91:15,24 92:1 94:17
94:18,23,24 95:1,5
95:7,11 96:14,18,20
96:21 97:19,21 98:5
98:8 100:6,15,21
102:12,23,24
103:11,12,12 104:2
105:7,12,19 107:7,8
107:11,16 108:10
108:19 109:18
110:3,7,10,11,25
111:12,14 112:2,19
113:2,20 115:9,11
115:15,16 116:3,6,9
116:10 117:1,5,21
118:10 122:3 123:7
124:13 126:4
127:11,15 129:3,9
129:12,24 130:10
132:15 133:6 134:7
134:9,22,24 136:3
136:10,15 137:13
138:2,18 139:8
141:3,16,17,18,19
142:16 143:10,24
143:25 144:9
145:18 146:12
147:2,6,9,24 149:3
149:4,8,9,10,14,16
149:21 150:1,13,14
150:17 152:8,15,16
154:22 155:2,24
156:3 157:6,9
158:11,18,20 160:6
160:11 161:7,7,18
163:4 164:22,25
165:21 166:18,23
169:3,14,18 170:21

170:24 171:24
172:15 176:6,15,20
176:21,21,22
178:19,23,24
179:13,17,18 180:5
180:9,10,25 181:2,5
182:17,21 183:11
183:23 184:12,22
185:10 188:7,11
189:13 191:19
196:20 197:8 198:3
198:21 199:18
200:8,25 201:11,19
201:21,25 204:3,10
204:12,15,17
205:11,19,22,24
206:5,6 207:3 208:1
208:10,12,23 209:2
210:11 211:4,5,13
211:25 214:1,14,24
215:4,8,23 216:5,9
216:13,23 217:15
217:15,23 218:10
218:15,25 219:3,5,9
219:22 221:7 222:3
223:20 224:16,24
226:1,8,18 227:15
227:17 228:4,8
229:13 230:5,6
231:5,5,14,15,17,18
232:17 233:3
234:14,15,21
235:21 236:7,14,24
237:4,14 238:3,18
239:1 240:1 241:6
241:24 243:23
244:24 245:16
248:2,4 249:9,25
250:18,22,25 251:3
251:3 252:16,20
253:2,11,18,19
254:2,3,11,21,23
255:11,19 256:20
257:1,2,5 258:13
259:7,21 260:11,13
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[astm - astm087497]
260:15,23 261:21
262:3,20 263:1,15
263:24 264:13
265:6,9,18,21,24
266:9,17,20 267:3
267:12,13 268:13
269:10,13 272:21
273:12 275:7,11,12
275:19,21 276:13
277:16 278:8,15,20
279:3,5,9 280:6
281:4 282:5,15,17
283:23,25 285:24
286:8,12,24 287:14
287:15
astm's 48:12 58:11
58:17,18 62:2
130:14,25 131:12
131:24 140:16
144:10,17 145:4,11
164:9 197:19
199:10 210:12
215:21 219:2,18
220:7 223:22,24
227:10 228:22
231:19 235:14
256:13 258:17,21
astm.org 240:3
astm.org. 188:23
astm000001 4:2
122:8,14
astm0000107
140:25
astm000107 133:3
134:20 136:8
141:13
astm000108 152:3
astm000149 156:22
156:24
astm000155 156:23
157:3,9
astm000167 158:6
160:16
astm000168 4:2
122:8,15

astm001792 5:19
261:14,21
astm001793 262:24
astm001796 290:9
astm001798 290:10
astm001800 5:19
261:15
astm001801 5:21
263:10,16
astm001802 264:3
astm001813 5:21
263:10
astm003314 5:11
244:17,24
astm003315 5:11
244:18
astm003437 3:20
68:15,23
astm003440 109:21
astm003441 3:20
68:16,23
astm003445 3:18
65:21 66:3
astm003448 3:18
65:22 66:4
astm003501 5:16
257:22
astm003522 5:16
257:22
astm0088302 289:3
astm013275 256:12
astm025633 4:8
187:3,21
astm025637 189:11
astm025640 4:8
187:4
astm034596 289:2
astm049368 4:3
171:13,20
astm051140 4:24
229:6
astm052816 5:23
264:14,23
astm052817 5:23
264:15

astm057841 5:2
232:11,21
astm060533 4:24
229:6
astm061183 6:7
278:22 279:3
astm061450 4:19
210:21 211:10
astm062194 5:23
264:15,23
astm062195 5:23
264:15
astm062198 5:24
264:16,24
astm062199 5:24
264:16
astm063146 4:19
210:21 211:11
218:6,8,13 219:8
223:23 224:9,17
astm063147 4:20
210:21 211:11
218:7,9 222:2,13
223:25 224:11
astm064686 6:2
277:10,16
astm064692 6:2
277:10
astm065682 4:20
210:22 211:11
224:14
astm066345 4:20
210:22 211:12
225:23
astm066829 4:22
229:3,14
astm066848 4:15
205:12,19
astm066853 4:15
205:13,20
astm066871 4:18
210:19 211:9
astm067015 4:22
229:4,14

astm067024 4:17
209:25 210:11
astm067321 4:22
229:4,14
astm067813 4:22
229:4
astm068894 4:10
195:21 196:3
astm069058 4:19
210:20 211:10
astm069093 5:2
232:11,18
astm069213 4:18
210:20 211:9
astm069635 233:17
astm070124 4:23
229:5
astm071068 4:23
229:5
astm073844 4:14
204:4,10
astm073852 6:11
281:24 282:5
astm074751 4:23
229:5
astm075283 4:23
229:6
astm075697 5:4
236:1,7
astm079420 4:12
201:13,19
astm080176 4:19
210:20 211:10
astm081145 4:24
229:7
astm082973 5:6
238:9 239:6
astm086030 4:5
173:5,12
astm086031 4:5
173:6
astm087493 6:4
277:24
astm087497 6:4
277:25
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[astm088320 - becker]
astm088320 5:18
260:4,11
astm088325 5:18
260:5,11
astm099502 5:9
243:17,24
astm099506 5:9
243:17,24
astm101777 5:7
239:20 240:1
astm101779 5:7
239:20
astm103272 5:12
253:12,19
astm103273 3:11
34:25 35:9
astm103274 5:14
255:12,20
astm103276 5:14
255:13,20
astm103277 3:13
60:4 61:8
astm103284 3:13
60:4
astm103285 3:15
64:7,15
astm103290 3:15
64:8,15
attached 189:1
246:5
attachment 4:8 5:10
5:17 6:4 187:3
244:17 246:8,12
260:4,12,14,23
277:24
attempting 278:7
attendance 86:12
attended 54:14
194:13
attending 9:9
100:23
attorney 163:2,21
163:24 164:12
200:13 201:3 202:4
204:21 206:13

217:3 218:20
222:25 224:3
237:21
attorneys 9:7
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attribute 237:14
attributed 96:4
audible 11:24
audio 8:10
august 291:12
authentic 171:25
188:12 240:12
244:5 245:16
authenticate 172:9
authentication
245:21,24
author 110:7,8
129:25 130:7,11
133:9 134:13 135:3
156:25 157:3,8
260:13,16,24 261:9
author's 111:10,17
112:4 133:11 157:1
157:4
authors 110:5,12
115:10 116:4
authorship 143:4
automated 156:12
156:15
available 102:1
144:10,17 155:24
156:4 159:20,23,24
160:1,2 176:22
219:3 258:2
avenue 2:5
average 17:8 20:1
aware 33:20 41:13
41:17 42:3 45:10,13
46:22 58:9 59:19
76:23 77:4 79:9,9
117:6 130:21 131:8
131:20 163:23
164:2,13 182:8
217:25 221:21
235:10 265:23

266:5
basis 40:5 49:18
awareness 58:4
70:7,14 75:11 94:22
awful 269:16
95:4,8,12 96:19
105:11,18 120:14
b
153:1,13,16 207:23
b 1:3,14 2:17 3:7,23
242:20 253:9
63:4 88:9,18 109:19
bates 5:1 6:12 34:24
109:22 241:4 242:5
35:9 60:3 61:5,8
242:15,22,24
64:7,14 65:21 66:3
259:11,11 283:8
68:15,22 92:11,13
b1a 109:23
92:24 93:7,14
b1b 109:23 116:2,17
109:20 122:7,14
back 12:17 15:21
124:2 171:12,19
18:5 19:7 57:20
173:5 187:3,21
66:16 80:7 88:4
189:10 195:21
96:23 105:2 108:5
196:2 201:13 204:4
117:14 120:4 126:1
205:12 209:25
135:24 145:19
210:19 211:8 218:6
155:17 159:9,12,18
229:3 232:10,20
187:12 195:18
236:1 238:9 239:6
198:23 199:15
239:20 243:17
226:19 227:19
244:17,24 253:12
228:9 231:10 234:9
253:18 255:12,19
239:16 257:19
257:22 260:4
280:3 283:5 288:21
261:14,21 263:10
background 241:23
263:16 264:14,23
242:1 248:15
277:9,24 278:22
249:11
279:3 281:24
ballot 151:21
283:17,22 284:7
balloted 148:6 271:5
285:10,17,20 289:1
275:24
becker 2:10 3:4 9:15
balloting 186:19
9:16 10:17,18 11:9
270:20
12:19 13:7 14:14
ballots 98:15,19,20
15:12 16:11 17:25
98:22
18:20 19:6,24 20:12
ballpark 252:24
21:3,14 22:19 24:2
bank 259:15
24:17 25:3,18 28:13
based 55:10,13
30:1,16,22 31:8,23
74:19 75:9 95:24
33:13 34:2,12 35:3
278:12
35:24 36:21 37:6,15
basic 43:3,4,5 44:3,4
38:8,18 39:3,24
44:16,23 45:2 94:15
40:21 41:16 42:1,17
94:23 96:25
43:22 44:2,14 45:15
basically 97:13
46:5,11,24 47:15
48:10,18 49:17 50:9
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Veritext Legal Solutions
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[becker - beyond]
50:14 51:11,22 52:2
52:12,17 53:4,16
54:5,18 55:1,16
56:2 57:11,22 59:2
59:8,11,17 60:7
61:3 62:6,11,19
64:11 65:2,25 67:6
68:19 71:1,17 72:10
72:19 73:19 74:3,17
74:21,23 75:2,17
76:4,10,22 77:6,15
77:20 78:1,10 79:22
80:6 81:9 82:14,21
84:1,9 86:11 88:14
89:7,17 90:1,21
92:21 93:20 96:10
97:8 98:6,18 100:9
103:13,22 104:12
104:20 108:4,15,24
110:20 111:2,7
112:1,14,21 113:1
113:18 114:9,15
115:6,20,21 117:15
118:2,15 119:20
120:20 121:4,12,20
122:11,22 123:4,22
124:17 128:7,12,21
129:23 130:23
131:10,22 132:12
132:25 133:2
134:18 135:10,15
135:25 136:22
137:5,11,18 138:8
138:15 139:1,7,13
139:19,24 140:3,9
140:22 142:7,23
143:20 144:7,15,23
145:2,9,16 146:10
146:19 147:5,23
149:19 150:25
151:10,22 153:11
154:8,9,17 155:1,9
155:22 156:8,13
157:16,23 158:5,15
160:4,10 161:3,17

162:1,8,16 163:1,9
164:6,21 165:12,24
166:6,12 167:21
168:5,21 169:23
170:7 171:6,16
172:4,11,21 173:9
174:4,10,18 175:4
175:12,19,24
176:13 177:9,18
178:6,17 179:8
180:2,16 181:1,18
182:10 183:15,21
184:6,17 185:7,20
186:3,9,14,20 187:7
187:18 188:16
191:2,15,23 192:12
192:21 193:5,11,24
194:6,17,18,24
195:4,9,24 197:7,15
198:1,8,16 199:6,16
199:23 200:21
201:16 202:12,22
203:11,20 204:7
205:3,16 206:17
207:12 208:9,18,25
209:11 210:3,25
211:23 212:5 213:2
213:17 214:13,23
215:13 217:13
218:4 219:7,20
220:1,9,16,25 221:6
221:20 222:1,11,19
223:7,18 224:12
225:4,20 227:4,9,14
228:3,16,21 229:10
229:20,22,24
230:13,18,25
232:14 233:1,5,25
234:5,11,20 235:2,7
235:12,19 236:4,21
237:9,13 238:2,12
238:24 239:7,23
241:1,4,9,18 242:3
242:8,14,22 243:11
243:13,20 244:21

245:1,9,20,24,25
246:13 247:1,6,13
247:21 248:14
249:7,16 250:11,21
251:10,14,19,24
252:4,12,25 253:15
254:18 255:3,16
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259:6 260:8,21
261:18 262:12
263:13 264:19
265:8,22 266:12
267:10,25 268:12
269:14 271:8,15
272:1,7 273:1
274:14,22 275:5,16
276:3 277:13 278:3
278:25 279:21
280:14 281:1,13
282:2,20 283:6,12
284:4,11 286:7,17
286:22 287:5,8,12
287:20,25 288:4,9
289:7,16,22 290:2
290:15
began 159:23,25
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beginning 28:21,23
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214:11 239:17
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89:1,4 90:5,14
167:24 168:10
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belief 53:6 55:9
58:18 94:22 95:4
105:24,24 120:10
133:24
believe 24:24 25:9
26:9 30:5,15,17
36:4,12,15 40:13
42:14 43:17 47:21
48:23 49:10,11,11
49:20 50:15 51:4,22

55:14 58:5,14,18
60:12,16 61:13
63:22 68:2 70:10,13
71:21 72:8 85:12
88:24 89:19 90:7
93:18 101:10
104:18 107:22
108:13,22,23 112:2
120:17 124:9,25
125:23 127:9
132:18 135:6,11
156:5 162:17
166:15 171:24
172:5 173:2 174:8,9
188:11 192:9
199:21 200:25
206:3 209:7 213:13
214:14 223:13
224:7 230:3 231:7
232:4 240:8,12
241:19 242:14
244:5,8,12 253:23
258:19 280:11
284:1 285:16,22
289:11,17 290:10
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55:15 84:6 102:23
200:8 204:16 206:5
218:15 223:20
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70:15
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176:16
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284:21
better 258:7
beyond 51:17,23
89:10 130:19
131:17 132:4
136:19,23 138:11
139:16,22 140:7,18
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[beyond - certificates]
141:21 142:18,25
143:13 144:3,12,19
145:14 146:15,24
150:22 151:3 165:7
165:17 166:4 171:1
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227:22 228:12
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233:21 237:5
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249:5,18 251:6,16
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bigger 150:7
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67:8,12 69:9,22
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bockius 2:4
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147:3 149:4,8,13,21
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152:16,21,22,24,25
153:3,15,18,19
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books 159:19
bottom 60:22 65:8
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196:10 197:17
199:8 256:11

box 125:11,14
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128:3,19,25 129:9
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282:22
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bridges 2:11 9:16,21
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248:19,24
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258:23
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36:6 37:23 40:18
107:8
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113:7
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63:23,25
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163:13,23 164:3,7
164:14
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buying 95:14
c
c 2:1 74:11 75:5
76:6,12 77:8 291:1
291:1
c14.92 282:18

california 2:12,13
172:14
call 129:14 169:10
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150:9 199:22
217:19
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22:12 29:17 30:9
31:14 33:10,24 37:2
37:25 38:14 39:1,21
41:5 42:8,20 46:17
47:6,22,23 49:3,4
51:7 52:25 53:12,23
54:8,23 55:7 62:16
66:24 70:23 71:12
71:25 73:13 74:14
75:6,19 76:15 77:11
77:18,22 78:6 80:2
81:5 102:25 110:14
110:22 111:19
112:7,16 113:10
114:2,11 117:9,22
118:11 129:17,18
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131:16 132:3
139:15,21 140:21
146:24 150:21
157:20 158:12
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163:17 170:2,25
172:16 173:24
174:13,24 176:7
177:24 178:14
179:1,2,20,21 181:8
181:9 188:13
192:16 200:10,12
201:1 202:1 203:6
203:15 204:18
206:7,10 214:7
218:17 221:3,15
224:2 225:11
226:23,24 227:21
227:23 228:13
230:10 231:23
233:22 237:6,18

245:17 246:9
251:17 252:9 253:4
265:12 272:23
canadian 111:11
112:4 113:7
capacity 50:18,19
51:5 52:23 53:10,21
55:5 242:6
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155:11 162:25
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247:20
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259:17,20
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277:2,2
cc 188:8
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202:15 203:2
certain 26:7 62:13
62:18,21 64:3
119:13 127:16
155:17 162:9 235:1
257:6 277:1
certificate 123:17
123:24 124:3,7
126:4 141:7,25
142:3
certificates 4:1
122:6 123:2,6,10
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[certificates - complete]
124:12 164:8
certification 78:21
133:16
certify 291:3
chain 4:7 5:7,8 6:3
137:1 143:2 187:2
239:19 243:16
247:7 277:23
chairman 280:20
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96:13
chance 13:14 229:25
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275:25 276:4
changes 13:15,16,17
65:14 74:18 151:24
253:9 271:2,21,25
272:3,11 274:24
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252:5
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256:15
checked 125:10,15
129:15
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128:3
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229:18 232:23
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265:21,25
choose 169:13
circumstances
56:23 148:7

citizens 209:13
claim 283:19
claiming 143:11
claims 29:11 198:3
283:24
clarify 12:4 80:16
213:21
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classification 15:17
56:4,7,9
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clause 74:11 75:5,9
75:13 76:6,12 77:8
77:10 115:7 116:13
116:17 180:22
181:3,6
clauses 74:18
cleanup 191:5,7
192:23 193:8
clear 89:4 113:20
182:20 288:8,15,24
click 81:17
client 163:2,21,24
164:12 200:13
201:3 202:4 204:21
206:13 217:3
218:20 222:25
224:3 237:21 243:3
close 273:15,16,18
collaborating 250:3
collaboration 5:12
21:21 22:25 23:9,13
24:6,19 25:17 26:20
26:21,22 27:1,7,8
28:5,8,18 30:4 31:4
31:13 81:22 94:12
102:19 103:9 167:3
179:6 253:12,20
254:1,2,21
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228:2
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collection 149:14
228:1

collective 157:5,10
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109:13
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come 13:8 22:4 31:5
43:7,17 48:6 94:17
comes 269:17
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14:12,15,18 15:22
16:1,12,18,20,23,25
17:1,2,3,17,22
49:20 50:8 56:12
57:2,5 78:14 80:18
82:13,17 83:5,12
95:16 100:25
117:12,18 118:4,7
118:10,17,21,25
119:4 148:5 165:20
168:20,24 169:6,16
170:12 185:19,23
190:14,23 191:22
192:5,10 194:2,8,20
195:1,6 201:12,22
203:23 217:11,16
217:24 218:1,10
222:21 223:6,17
225:19 226:8
250:19,23 251:1,5
263:22,24 264:2
268:15 269:6
274:16,21,23 275:6
275:10,19 276:12
278:21 279:5
282:19
committees 5:25
14:20 15:20 31:1
49:11,25 50:5 51:3
52:21 53:8,20 54:13
55:20,23 151:6,14
151:15,16 166:8,16
167:14 168:4,9

189:14 217:21
249:10 252:16,21
253:3 254:20 266:9
266:18,20 267:4,8
267:12,17,22 268:2
285:25 286:9,12,25
287:16
common 22:14
278:18
communicated
109:10 132:15
207:3
communication
42:22 47:8 130:14
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204:22 206:13
communications
29:19 30:12 31:16
41:8 42:10 44:8
45:8 46:19 47:25
49:6 52:18 53:6
71:13 72:2 73:15
74:19 75:9,22 76:17
99:2,7 106:4,9
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112:9,12 113:12
114:4 126:18,23
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201:4 202:5 217:3
218:20 223:1 224:3
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46:13 47:1
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49:15 55:15
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compilation 4:21
5:1 152:6,11 211:3
229:2,13 232:9,17
complaint 3:25
121:17,23
complete 139:8
258:8 263:21
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[completed - copyright]
completed 93:3
completely 13:10
153:25
completion 160:17
compliance 46:4
comply 228:5
component 143:5
compose 19:1 20:21
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286:11
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245:3 254:3,22
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162:18 172:6
223:20 247:1,14
249:8
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159:4 239:11
290:19

conclusion 29:18
30:10 31:15 37:2
38:1,15 41:6 42:9
42:21 46:18 47:6,23
49:4 51:8 53:1,13
53:24 54:9 55:8
72:1 73:14 74:15
75:7 76:16 80:3
81:6 103:1 110:15
111:20 112:8
113:11 114:3
129:19 158:13
160:25 169:10
176:8 179:2,22
181:9 188:14
200:11 201:2 202:2
204:19 206:11
214:8 218:18
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141:17
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40:12
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16:14,15 17:15
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165:22
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116:3
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97:2
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81:1
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58:18
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169:17
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copy 120:22 246:2
260:15,23 262:1,18
277:18
copyright 4:1 30:6
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45:5 47:2,18,21
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79:12,25 81:3,13
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94:14,22 95:6 96:13
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107:10 108:10,18
111:12,15 112:5
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123:3,7,10,17,24
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143:23 145:19,25
150:18 157:18
158:7 159:21,21
161:8 164:18
166:18,22 176:3,19
178:22 179:16
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[copyright - deficient]
180:8,24 200:9,23
201:25 204:16
206:6 210:12
213:24 215:22
218:15 223:8,9,21
231:5,15,18 241:10
241:11 247:6
248:22 254:4,22
260:13,16,24 261:9
262:25 265:24
283:19,24
copyrightability
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43:15 94:20 96:21
129:14
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97:1
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71:22 78:18 80:23
248:12
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212:14,18 214:2

221:2 222:6,15,18
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252:21 255:25
256:24 260:14,23
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285:21
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285:12
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34:2 41:8 42:11,23
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209:14
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209:3

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249:20
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282:8
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d
d 1:3 3:1 72:8,12,15
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193:7,13 194:25
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151:6
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defendant 1:10 2:8
3:21 9:17 10:19
88:7
defense 8:22 202:15
203:1
deficient 89:23

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[define - disclose]
define 15:13,25
185:6
defined 270:10
defines 79:5
definition 141:5
definitively 121:7
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[disclosing - electronic]
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generally 20:22 84:6
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gibson 176:3
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[historical - instruct]
historical 156:3
hold 77:2 100:24
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keep 139:8 155:2
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[kept - levels]
kept 101:20 140:16
kevin 2:4 9:19
kin 291:10
kind 105:4 154:7
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know 12:4,21 13:11
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large 19:25
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259:12,16 272:23
letters 130:24 230:6
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level 17:17
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[lewis - matter]
lewis 2:4 9:20
library 144:11,18
145:4,11
limit 245:4
limited 59:14 78:18
80:23
linda 1:20 9:11
line 7:4,4,10,10,14
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lively 85:6 102:4,10
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march 160:18 161:9
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matthew 2:10 9:15
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[middle - objection]
middle 12:23,24
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mind 22:4 31:5
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ownership 52:3 73:6
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21:16 22:8,9 25:24
25:25 27:5 28:10,19
29:8 30:7 32:15,22
32:25 33:5 36:7,24
37:14,21 38:7,12
40:20 43:9,16,20
46:2 48:9 54:17
80:1 81:2 83:3
94:18,19 95:1 97:22
98:9 105:15,22
112:3,6 136:9
137:22 141:4,18
142:4,14 145:1
146:11 147:13
148:6 149:9,10
151:8,18 154:3,5,19
155:3 158:8,11,16
158:19 160:15,21
164:5 186:21 191:7
191:16,19 192:11
192:14,23 194:1
269:3 270:13,20
271:2 272:17,19
276:23 277:1,5
280:13,17
standardization
280:3
standards 6:8,8,9
14:21,22,24,25 15:7
15:20 16:3,13 17:21
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23:14 24:4,22 27:16
29:15 33:8,9 39:5
41:2 43:12 44:19
45:4,5,18,21 46:14
49:12 54:4 56:6
58:21 71:23 78:20
78:21 79:24 95:13
95:15,22 96:18,23
98:14,21,24 103:11
103:12 109:20
110:2,13 113:3,4,21
113:22 117:1,5,21
122:3 136:2,10,14
136:16 137:12,14
137:21 138:1,2,17
138:18 141:19
143:7,25 144:9
147:2 149:4,8,14,16
149:22 150:1,11,15
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153:3,14,18,19,20
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155:4 156:4 158:22
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227:17,19 228:7,10
247:3 267:9,19
268:16 269:6,13
271:22 274:1 275:7
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standardsdevelop....
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standpoint 103:19
stands 207:15
stapled 265:2
start 91:21 255:4
started 10:7 25:7
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state 10:22 120:13
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statements 96:5
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style 268:6 269:11
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subjects 84:17
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suggesting 141:24
142:2
suing 144:1
suite 1:18 8:20
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support 7:1 44:23
45:2 95:23 164:19
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202:15 203:1
suppose 178:16
203:18 230:22
supposed 197:24
242:18
sure 15:10,23,24
19:3 34:15,19 39:12
40:3 41:24 44:12
46:8 47:13 49:9

50:22 51:10 53:2
55:25 58:14 61:21
61:25 62:5 66:21
74:6 80:4 101:16,24
104:5 107:18 108:2
119:19 123:20
132:22 134:15,19
136:5 142:11,12
146:18 153:24
160:9 161:16 170:5
172:20 181:12
185:1,5 190:1
191:21 196:21
200:2,5 208:8,15
209:22 215:2,25
225:24 244:14
245:14 251:13
252:3 255:7 256:22
257:3 259:19
260:20 262:7
270:22 275:8 277:5
279:25 284:25
288:23
sven 189:22 190:6
190:16 193:25
195:5
swear 9:13
sworn 10:12 291:5
system 155:15
156:12,15,16 197:5
197:19 198:19
199:10 250:7,8
t
t 2:16 3:7 188:22
291:1,1
table 43:7,18
tag 281:14,17
282:10,14,18
take 12:22 13:1
32:23 43:14 52:10
52:15 57:9,11
132:24 187:10
194:15 195:9
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taken 8:21 11:1
12:14 57:17 88:1
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257:16 283:2 291:4
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task 18:9,10,14,17
18:19,21 19:1,9,12
19:17,25 20:4,10,13
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22:7,20 23:1,14
24:5,20 27:4,15
28:16 29:5,12 30:3
31:11 32:3,6,10
36:17,23 37:20,23
38:10 40:25 55:21
55:23 192:10,13,19
tax 259:13
tc 282:14
team 86:14 109:5
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technical 5:25 14:12
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119:4 151:5 166:8
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267:12,17,21 268:2
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272:10,13 276:10
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technically 152:1
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ten 1:18 155:5,13,14
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8:24 88:10,19 130:6
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text 152:11,12,14,19
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thereof 291:10
thing 21:13 40:16
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things 58:24 59:3
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46:9 47:5,7 48:1
51:17 53:15,18 55:3
55:11 56:15 59:7,11
59:24 61:20 63:18
67:3 69:15 78:8
91:2 93:2 95:8 97:6
97:11,12,15 100:14
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107:17,18 108:2,2
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121:3,25 122:20
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198:16 208:15
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three 51:20 60:17
70:3 159:10 185:9
197:24 239:11
240:25 241:12,15
242:19 243:9
246:22 247:5 249:3
time 8:16 9:7 12:10
12:16 31:3 38:19
44:1 50:6 54:12
57:8,13,19 59:25
63:25 87:5,22 88:3
91:10 105:3 109:14
132:8,9,14,24
135:17,23 154:19
155:3,13,14 159:2,8
160:5 192:2 195:11
195:17 213:16
214:17 235:1 239:9
239:15 244:9,13
257:12,18 258:9
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title 34:13 136:9
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titled 35:10 61:6
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68:1,5 69:18 71:6
81:25 83:22 84:11
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66:14 69:25 141:12
145:21 160:20
189:12 210:7
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240:15 250:17
252:13 256:23
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topic 51:25 89:15
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249:5 283:9,15
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topics 51:18,21 89:5
89:10,21,22 90:4,10
90:13,17 197:24
209:18 240:25
241:13 242:19,25
243:1,9 245:5
246:22 247:5
248:18 249:3 287:6
torn 233:19
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transcript 13:14
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80:21 200:23
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transformed 276:1
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292:3
truth 291:6,6,6
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187:11 207:10
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278:13
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149:17,22 150:2
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91:7 93:24,25,25
96:12,17 97:4,10
99:4
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133:3 156:21 158:6
188:20 189:10

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288:21 289:9
turned 33:9 248:21
turning 145:18
tweaking 270:2
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two 16:16 60:17
71:10 88:5 157:18
159:4 181:22
184:19 288:15
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type 217:18 264:4
types 259:8,11,25
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18:18 51:13 153:2
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u
u 175:14,15
u.s. 111:11 112:4
113:7,25 170:20
183:2,3,4,5,6,16,20
184:8,11,20 185:8
ue's 189:3
uh 99:15 156:20
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11:19 12:3 13:18
26:25 47:5,10 78:4
80:5 88:25 90:2,12
105:7 134:16
153:25 177:3
198:10 227:25
understanding
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44:5,16,24 45:3
47:2 48:4,12,13
58:19 74:16 75:8,12
94:15,24 95:5 96:19
96:25 105:6,12,19
129:1 134:5,21
159:17 164:17
178:20 179:14
180:6 207:16,18
256:13

understands 77:17
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unfortunately
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units 276:23,25
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33:21 37:21 40:8,13
54:20 207:11 208:1
208:15,19 217:12
224:24 229:17
265:1 267:11,15
271:7 274:12
276:22,25
usepa 185:17
user 56:11,18,24
57:6 274:13
uses 208:10
utilizing 208:23
209:2,8
v
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78:12 79:8 80:16
89:16 175:16
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15:9 16:7 17:19
18:16 23:23 24:12
25:12 28:11 31:3
36:18 37:3 38:1,13
40:15 47:4 50:3,12
55:24 62:4,9 64:24
72:17 73:24 77:22
79:14 82:18 83:23
84:8 90:18 97:5
98:12 100:8 103:17
113:9 114:1 123:19
128:9 145:6,13
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177:5 178:25
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214:20 215:10
217:17 222:16
225:1 250:14
251:12 252:7,22
254:13 260:17
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145:24 147:12,15
148:13,14,23 149:3
151:25 196:6
225:15 254:10
256:9,10 257:1
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versions 60:14 62:1
67:19,24 70:3
147:22,25 148:4
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212:21,22 225:6
226:3,8,12 275:7,9
versus 22:8 56:25
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vi 109:19,23,23
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102:4 106:14
117:11,17 118:3,6
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126:15 127:12,19
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57:14,20 87:23 88:4
135:18,24 159:3,9
195:12,18 239:10
239:16 257:13,19
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195:11,17 239:9,15
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283:4 290:18
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visa 203:23
volume 98:14
137:20 142:5
149:18,20 150:8
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186:21 194:19
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vs 1:9
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want 10:7 20:16
33:4 34:6 43:18
95:20 107:9 117:14
142:23 151:7,15
162:13,23 175:23
180:19 198:22
242:4 249:13 258:1
264:4 268:11 284:2
288:23
wanted 32:15,23
86:22
wants 26:22 38:6
washington 2:5
waste 258:9
way 77:25 78:2,9
81:8 101:18 125:19
125:22 126:22
127:4 137:23 138:6
142:13 154:16
167:15 175:23
178:3 215:7,17
221:11 226:6
230:14 234:12
263:7 280:5,11
ways 21:18,23 22:1
22:3 110:4 198:3
280:15
we've 43:12 52:9
57:7 58:1 89:17

95:9 141:1 145:20
194:15 242:19
web 5:19 22:15,17
103:20 104:2 105:1
108:8,10,17,19
156:5 171:5,7 219:4
253:24 254:11
255:24 256:2,7
257:2,5 261:13,24
262:3,6,20 277:20
281:4,11 290:5
weblink 256:16
week 90:22 91:3,7,7
weeks 100:25
went 66:19
west 2:10 9:17 10:19
whispering 8:6
wish 18:19 164:25
witness 3:2 7:3 9:6
9:13 10:9 14:11
15:10 16:8 17:20
18:17 19:3,20 20:9
20:25 21:10 22:14
23:24 24:13,24
25:13 28:12 29:24
30:15,20 31:4,20
33:12 34:1,10 36:19
37:4,11 38:3,16
39:2,23 40:16 41:13
41:24 42:14 43:2
44:1,12 45:13,24
46:8,22 47:13 48:4
48:16 49:9 50:4,13
51:9 52:8 53:2,14
53:25 54:10,24 55:9
55:25 59:16 62:5,18
64:25 67:1 70:25
71:16 72:6 73:18
74:1 75:14 76:2,21
77:4,14,24 78:8
79:15 80:4 81:7
82:11,19 83:24 86:7
89:9,12,14,20,22
90:19 91:1 92:15,20
93:18 96:7 97:6
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111:6,25 112:13,18
112:25 113:16
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117:11,24 118:13
119:18 120:17
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129:22 130:21
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134:15 135:6
136:21 137:17
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139:11,17,23 140:2
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145:1,7,15 146:8,17
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186:18,24 187:16
188:15 190:25
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193:2,10,16,18,22
194:5,11 195:3,8
197:12 198:25
199:3,13,20 200:18

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206:16 208:7,14,22
209:7,22 210:15
211:17,21 212:3
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215:11 217:6,18
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221:24 222:9,17
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227:25 228:15,19
228:25 230:12,17
230:21 231:25
233:24 234:3,8,18
234:25 235:5,10,17
236:18 237:8,12,24
238:22 241:19,22
242:4,5,13 246:11
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259:4,24 260:20
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work 14:5,6 25:16
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82:23 83:16,17
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119:9 125:12,12
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Page 37
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Commonwealth o f Pennsylvania Rules o f Civil
Procedure
Title 231, Chapter 4000
Deposi ti ons and Discovery
Rule 4017

(c) When the testim ony is fully tran sc ribed a copy
of the deposition with the original signature page
shall be submitted to the witness for inspection
and signing and shall be read to o r by the witness
and shall be signed by the witness, unless the
inspection, reading and signing are waived by the
witness and by all parties who attended the taking
of the deposition,

o r the witness is ill o r canno t

be found or refuses t o s ign . Any changes in form or
subs tan ce which the witness desires t o make shall
be entered upon the deposition by the person before
whom it was taken with a statement of the rea sons
given by the witness for making the changes . If the
deposition is not signed by the witness within
thirty days of its submission to the witness,

the

person before whom the deposition was taken shall
sign it and s tate on the re co rd the fa ct o f the
waiver o r of the illness o r absence o f the witness
o r the refu sal to sign together wi th the reason,

if

any,

given therefor; and the deposition may then be

used as fully as though signed, unless the court
holds that the reasons given for the refusal to
sign require rejection of the deposition in whole
or in part .

DISCLAIMER :

THE FOREGOING CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY .
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1,
2014 .

PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE STATE RULES

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP - TO - DATE INFORMATION .