AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 41

1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2

FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

3
AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR

)

4

TESTING AND MATERIALS,

)

5

d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;

) Civil Action No.

6

NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION

) 1:13-cv-01215-TSC

7

ASSOCIATION, INC.; and

)

AMERICAN SOCIETY OF

)

8

HEATING, REFRIGERATION AND

)

9

AIR CONDITIONING ENGINEERS,

)

Plaintiffs and

)

10

Counter-Defendants,

)

11

vs.

)

12

PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG,INC.,

)

13
14

Defendant and

)

Counter-Plaintiff.

15
16

VIDEOTAPED 30(b)(6) DEPOSITION OF NATIONAL

17

FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION, INC., BY

18

CHRISTIAN DUBAY, before Jeanette N. Maracas,

19

Registered Professional Reporter and Notary

20

Public in and for the Commonwealth of

21

Massachusetts, at 42 Chauncy Street, Boston,

22

Massachusetts, on Wednesday, April 1, 2015,

23

commencing at 10:00 a.m.

24
25

PAGES 1 - 250
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1 (Exhibits continued)
2
3 No
Description
Page
4
Exhibit 1239 ADS011280
5
Exhibit 1240 ADS007361
6
Exhibit 1241 ADS008689
7
Exhibit 1242 ADS023243 to
8
3244
131
9 Exhibit 1243 ADS011118
10 Exhibit 1244 ADS011153
11 Exhibit 1245 ADS011232
12 Exhibit 1246 ADS011250 to
1254
143
13
Exhibit 1247 ADS011265
14
Exhibit 1248 ADS019171
15
Exhibit 1249 ADS019166 to
16
9167
146
17 Exhibit 1250 ADS019249 to
9259
147
18
Exhibit 1251 ADS019270
19
Exhibit 1252 ADS020865
20
Exhibit 1253 ADS007551 to
21
7560
150
22 Exhibit 1254 ADS002334 to
2335
151
23
Exhibit 1255 ADS000090
24
25

1 APPEARANCES:
2
3 MORGAN, LEWIS & BOCKIUS, LLP
By: J Kevin Fee, Esq
4 1111 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20004
5 For ASTM
E-mail: Jkfee@morganlewis com
6
7 MUNGER, TOLLES & OLSON, LLP
By: Thane Rehn, Esq
8 560 Mission Street
27th Floor
9 San Francisco, California 94105
For NFPA and the Deponent
10 E-mail: Thane rehn@mto com
11
FENWICK & WEST, LLP
12 By: Andrew P Bridges, Esq
555 California Street
13 San Francisco, California 94104
For Public Resource Org, Inc
14 E-mail: Abridges@fenwick com
15
Anthony Piccirilli, Videographer
16
17
ALSO PRESENT:
18
Sally P Everett, Esq , NFPA
19
Mitch Stolz, Esq , Electronic
Frontier Foundation
20
Carl Malamud,Public Resource Org,
Inc (via telephone)
21
22
23
24
25

128
130
130

134
142
143

145
146

149
150

152

Page 2
1
2

INDEX
Testimony of:

Page 4
1 (Exhibits continued)
2
3 No
Description
Page
4
5 Exhibit 1256 ADS000175 to
0200
153
6
Exhibit 1257 ADS019172 to
7
9173
156
8 Exhibit 1258 ADS020867 to
0868
156
9
Exhibit 1259 ADS024931 to
10
5100
157
11 Exhibit 1260 ADS000089 to
0174
158
12
Exhibit 1261 NFPA-PR0048987
13
Exhibit 1262 NFPA-PR0049128
14
Exhibit 1263 NFPA-PR0038686
15
Exhibit 1264 NFPA-PR0038697 to
16
8698
171
17 Exhibit 1265 NFPA-PR0039043
18 Exhibit 1266 NFPA-PR0038683
19 Exhibit 1267 NFPA-PR0096607 to
6608
187
20
Exhibit 1268 NFPA-PR0048992
21
Exhibit 1269 NFPA-PR0066821 to
22
6822
192
23 Exhibit 1270 NFPA-PR0066842 to
6843
195
24
25

Direct Cross

3
Christian Dubay
4
(by Mr Bridges)
9,247
5 (by Mr Rehn)
246
6
EXHIBITS
7
8 No
Description
Page
9
Exhibit 1227 NFPA Regulations
10
and Procedures
document
48
11
Exhibit 1228 NFPA Terms of Use
12
document
93
13 Exhibit 1229 NFPA Disclaimers
document
94
14
Exhibit 1230 NFPA-PR0038497 to
15
8507
95
16 Exhibit 1231 NFPA-PR0038518 to
8520
103
17
Exhibit 1232 NFPA-PR0020393 to
18
0402
117
19 Exhibit 1233 ADS011129 to 1130
125
20 Exhibit 1234 ADS007008
126
21 Exhibit 1235 ADS001673
127
22 Exhibit 1236 ADS011112
127
23 Exhibit 1237 ADS011147
128
24 Exhibit 1238 ADS011264
128
25

Page 3

163
166
169

185
185

191

Page 5

2 (Pages 2 - 5)
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1

1

No
Description
Page
4
5 Exhibit 1271 NFPA-PR0042205 to
2208
203
6
Exhibit 1272 NFPA-PR0042201 to
7
2202
208
8 Exhibit 1273 NFPA-PR0055814 to
5815
222
9
Exhibit 1274 NFPA-PR0068261 to
10
8262
223
11 Exhibit 1275 NFPA-PR0092785
12 Exhibit 1276 NFPA-PR0050050 to
0052
226
13
Exhibit 1277 NFPA-PR0049260
14
Exhibit 1278 NFPA-PR0049264
15
Exhibit 1279 NFPA-PR0049521 to
16
9522
229
17 Exhibit 1280 NFPA-PR0092773 to
2775
231
18
Exhibit 1281 NFPA-PR0040625 to
19
0627
232
20 Exhibit 1282 NFPA-PR0044700
21 Exhibit 1283 NFPA-PR0092763 to
2766
232
22
23
24
25

MR. BRIDGES: Yes.

2

THE WITNESS: Yes.

3

MR. REHN: Yes.

4

MR. FEE: Yes.

5

VIDEOGRAPHER: At this time will

6

counsel and all present identify themselves

7

for the record, after which our court

8

reporter will swear in the witness and we

9

(Exhibits continued)
2
3

can proceed.

10

10:01:12
10:01:12
10:01:13
10:01:13
10:01:15
10:01:17

10:01:17
10:01:18

10:01:19

MR. BRIDGES: This is Andrew Bridges 10:01:20

11

from Fenwick & West, representing the

10:01:23

12

224

defendant, Public.Resource.org. With me

10:01:26

13

is Mitch Stoltz from Electronic Frontier

227

14

Foundation, also representing

228

15

Public.Resource.org. I believe that we

10:01:35

16

have listening in only on the telephone

10:01:36

17

Carl Malamud of Public.Resource.org.

18
19

10:01:31
10:01:32

10:01:39

MR. MALAMUD: Yes, I'm here. Thank
you.

20

10:01:43

10:01:45
MR. REHN: I'm Thane Rehn from

10:01:45

21

Munger, Tolles & Olson, representing the

10:01:45

22

National Fire Protection Association and the

10:01:49

23

232

witness.

24
25

10:01:51

MS. EVERETT: I'm Sally Everett,

10:01:52

general counsel of National Fire Protection

10:01:53

Page 6

Page 8

1

PROCEEDINGS

1

2

VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We

2

MR. FEE: Kevin Fee from Morgan

3

Lewis, on behalf of ASTM International.

3

are now on the record at 10:00 a.m. on

10:00:18

4

April 1st, 2015. This is the video-recorded

5

deposition of Christian Dubay.

10:00:21

My name is Anthony Piccirilli, here

7

with our court reporter, Jeanette Maracas.

8
9
10

4

10:00:25

6

Association.

10:01:56
10:01:59

CHRISTIAN DUBAY

5

10:00:28

10:01:56

10:02:02

A witness called for examination

6

by counsel for the Defendant and

7

Counter-Plaintiff, having been first duly

We are here from Veritext National Deposition 10:00:32

8

sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

and Litigation Services.

9

10:00:30

10:00:35

This deposition is being held at

10:00:37

10

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BRIDGES:

10:02:09

11

G&M Court Reporters in Boston, Massachusetts. 10:00:39

11

Q. Good morning, Mr. Dubay.

12

The caption of this case is American Society

12

A. Good morning.

13

for Testing and Materials versus

13

Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

14

Public.Resource.org, Incorporated.

14

A. No.

15

Q. Have you ever testified under oath before?

16

A. No.

Q. Did you have a chance to meet with counsel

10:00:42

10:00:45
10:00:47

15

Please note that audio and video

16

recording will take place unless all parties

17

agree to go off the record. Microphones are

10:00:54

17

18

sensitive and may pick up whispers, private

10:00:56

18

19

conversations and cellular interference.

20
21

I am not authorized to administer

10:00:50
10:00:51

10:00:58

10:02:10
10:02:11
10:02:12

10:02:13
10:02:14

10:02:16

to discuss how a deposition proceeds?

19

A. Yes.

20

10:01:01

10:02:23

Q. How long did you spend either meeting with

an oath. I am not related to any party in

10:01:02

21

22

this action, nor am I financially interested

10:01:05

22

counsel talking about depositions?

23

in the outcome in any way. May I please have 10:01:07

23

A. Approximately about four hours.

24

an agreement by all parties that we can

24

Q. When did you do that?

25

proceed?

25

A. Monday.

10:01:09

10:01:11

counsel or in other conversations with

Page 7

10:02:16

10:02:20
10:02:23

10:02:26
10:02:28
10:02:31
10:02:32

10:02:34
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Q. Was anyone else present at that meeting?

2

A. No.

3

10:02:34

Q. Did they explain to you how a deposition

10:02:38
10:02:38

proceeds and how objections can be made and

5

how there may be times for you to receive

6

instructions from counsel?

10:02:45
10:02:48

A. Yes.

8

Q. Do you have any physical or mental reason

10:02:54
10:02:54

10:03:03
10:03:06

11

A. No.

12

Q. Will you please state your full name for

13

the record.

Q. Then what?

10:05:20

4

A. Then I was given responsibility for a library 10:05:25

10:05:25

5

of smaller documents as a new engineer to
handle the committee process and the

10:05:31
10:05:35

7

why you can't testify accurately and
truthfully today?

standards.

3

6

10:02:52

7
9

technical questions relating to our codes and 10:05:17

2

4

10

1

management of our technical committees.

10:05:37

8

Q. What did you mean by a library of smaller

10:05:39

9
10

10:03:06

documents?

10:06:04

A. As a staff liaison, I was given approximately 10:06:04

11
10:03:07

10:03:13

on the order of maybe 10 or 12 different

12

standards that I was responsible for with the 10:06:13

13

standards process around those documents.

10:06:17

14

A. Sure. My name is Christian Dubay.

15

Q. What's your home address?

16

A. 32 Alvin Circle, Raynham, Massachusetts.

17

Q. What's your work address?

18

A. One Batterymarch Park, Quincy, Massachusetts. 10:03:23

18

19

Q. What is your job at NFPA?

19

Q. How long did you have that role?

20

A. I'm vice president and chief engineer.

20

A. To the best of my recollection, I had that

10:07:06

21

Q. When did you first begin working for NFPA?

21

smaller set of documents for about two to

10:07:09

22

A. 1995.

22

three years and then I took on a larger role, 10:07:12

23

Q. What work did you have before you joined

23

handling a smaller set of standards, but

24

larger documents around automatic fire

24
25

1
2
3
4
5
6

NFPA?

10:03:13

10:06:09

10:03:16
10:03:17

10:03:22
10:03:27
10:03:33
10:03:36

10:03:42
10:03:44

10:03:51

with the U.S. Navy.
education.

10:03:54
10:04:02

A. I have a Bachelor's degree in fire protection 10:04:02
10:04:05

10:04:09

7

Q. Where was that university degree from?

8

A. University of Maryland.

9

Q. Please take me through your career at NFPA,

10
11

10:04:10

10:04:13

and tell me what your positions have been
since 1995.

were responsible for have a common theme?
A. It was a long time ago, but the best I can

10:06:31

17

recall, yes, mostly around commercial

10:06:34

cooking, chimneys, things like that.

10:06:39
10:06:51

sprinkler systems.

10:07:16
10:07:19

10:07:22
Page 12
10:07:26

2 A. Specifically NFPA 13, NFPA 13R, 13E, some of
them. There's a few more.

4 Q. That group had a common theme of sprinkler
5

systems?
systems.

10:04:24

10:07:51

10:07:54
10:07:59

9 A. I had that role until -- I forget the

10:08:01

10

specific start date, but I had that role

11

10:04:27

until 2007.

10:08:05

10:08:07

12

A. I started out as an associate engineer,

10:04:28

12 Q. At that point how did your role at NFPA

13

worked through the various levels of

10:04:32

13

14

engineering all the way through principal

15

and ultimately vice president and chief

16

engineer.

17
18
19

10:04:34
10:04:36

10:04:38

10:08:12

10:08:17

14 A. At that point I was named vice president and
15

chief engineer.

10:08:20

10:04:40

10:04:51

17 A. Yes.

10:08:27

18 Q. What have your functions been as vice

10:08:28

A. Not formal degree programs, but continuing

10:04:53

19

20

education, management development, things

10:04:57

20 A. I have primarily two responsibilities. The

21

like that.

22

10:05:00

10:08:32

first and foremost is the overseeing of our

22

codes and standards operations. My second

23

role in serving as chief engineer is the

10:05:11

24

primary technical spokesman for the

A. My primary role when I started was answering

10:05:13
25
Page 11

Q. Please take me through your areas of

10:05:01

responsibility starting in 1995 till now in

24

your work at NFPA.

25

president and chief engineer?

21

23

10:08:18

16 Q. You've had the same title from 2007 till now? 10:08:21

Q. Did you receive any academic education after
your Bachelor's degree?

change?

10:07:47

10:07:50

6 A. All related to automatic fire sprinkler
7

10:07:31

10:07:42

8 Q. When did you have that role?

10:04:14

10:06:27

16

3

engineering with a co-op distinction due to

Q. Did the 10 or 12 different standards that you 10:06:22

1 Q. What were those documents?

10:03:58

my work with the U.S. Navy.

15

25
10:03:51
Page 10

A. I was a college student and a co-op engineer

Q. Please take me through your college

14

10:05:07

association.

10:08:33
10:08:37
10:08:40

10:08:44
10:08:47

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2

Q. In what forums do you speak as NFPA's primary 10:09:00
technical spokesman?

10:09:12

committee volunteers.

10:13:04

A. One example is media interviews.

4

Q. How else?

5

2

A. Another example is public forums around our

10:09:25
10:09:26

technical topics of expertise, our standards. 10:09:32

10:13:15

3

10:09:15

Q. Is it the technical committee of volunteers
who determine what constitutes the best

10:13:22

4

3

6

1

minimum level of safety?

5
6

10:13:24

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:13:26

A. It's a combination of -- our technical

10:13:29

7

Q. What type of public forums do you mean?

10:09:36

7

committee members determine the final

8

A. One example is speaking at the conferences

10:09:40

8

technical requirements, however, that's

9

balanced with extensive public review and

9
10
11
12

and training seminars and such.

10:09:47

Q. What types of conferences do you speak at
for NFPA?

10:09:49

10:09:52

10
11

A. In my current role primarily, I guess that's

10:09:52

comment.

10:13:32
10:13:34
10:13:37

10:13:39

Q. I'll come back to that in a minute. How else 10:13:49

12
13

10:14:14

as primary technical spokesman for NFPA? You 10:14:17

a standards role, technically it could

14

involve the topic at hand. It could be a

10:09:59

14

mentioned media interviews, certain public

15

trade event or an association of, say, an

10:10:01

15

forums. You mentioned conferences and

10:14:27

16

association of manufacturers or constituents

16

training seminars. Are there any other ways

10:14:29

17

or government, like fire marshals.

17

in which you serve as the primary technical

10:14:32

18
19

10:09:57

do you -- in what other forums do you speak

13

10:10:08

10:10:11

Q. On what topics do you typically speak at
those conferences?

10:10:18

10:10:23

20

A. As broad as our scope of NFPA.

21

Q. And how broad is that scope?

22

18
19

10:10:25

A. We -- our mission is based upon safety and

spokesman for NFPA?

10:14:24

10:14:34

A. I often give presentations relating to

10:14:35

20

10:10:34

awareness of our process and awareness of how 10:14:39

21

to get involved and how to be part of this

10:10:36

22

public codes and standards process.

23

improving safety and reducing loss. And that 10:10:42

23

Q. To whom do you make those presentations?

24

covers approximately 300 codes and standards

24

A. Various affected parties. Again, really

25

on a multitude of topics.

25

depends on the breadth of topics. So it

10:10:44

10:10:49

10:14:42
10:14:46
10:14:51

10:14:55
10:14:59

Page 14
1
2
3

Q. How do codes and standards improve safety
and reduce loss?

A. Codes and standards are designed -- part of
them is to learn from losses, learn from

5

incidents as such to ensure what protection

6

needs to be in place to account for that.

7

That's one of the ways.

9

10:11:05

10:11:13
10:11:20

Q. How else do codes and standards improve

3
4

varies.

10:15:04

Q. What are some examples of groups to which you 10:15:04
make these presentations?

10:15:08

A. For example, if there's an emerging technical 10:15:09

10:11:27

5

topic of safety or concern to the

6

association, I may meet with fire marshals or 10:15:16

7

10:11:17

10:11:23

safety and reduce losses?

1
2

10:11:03

4

8

10:11:01

Page 16

local safety officials in a given

8

jurisdiction or state to present what we know 10:15:22

9

10:11:30

10

at that time.

10:15:19
10:15:26

Q. To your knowledge, what use do they make of

10:15:30

10

MR. REHN: I'll just object that

11

these questions are outside the scope of the

11

the information that you present to them?

10:15:42

12

topics for which this witness was designated, 10:11:38

12

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:15:45

13

but you can answer.

13

14
15

10:11:35

10:15:13

10:11:41

MR. BRIDGES: I disagree, but we
don't need to argue it.

10:11:36

Calls for speculation.

10:15:47

10:11:44

A. It would really depend on the group.
Q. Let's say fire marshals.

16

10:15:49
10:15:56

MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:15:58

16

A. Codes and standards, at least the NFPA

17

process, brings together a multitude of

10:11:48

17

18

interested parties which can determine,

10:11:51

18

information to make safety decisions within

19

through the consensus process, a best minimum 10:11:53

19

their various jurisdictions or with the

level of safety.

20

20
21
22
23

10:11:46

14
15

10:11:42

10:11:58

Q. Who determines what the best minimum level
of safety is in that process?

10:12:14

10:12:50

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:12:55

10:12:58

21
22
23
24

24

Q. You may answer.

25

25
A. At NFPA our process relies upon our technical 10:12:59
Page 15

A. They often utilize that information as

10:16:01

situations that they're facing.

10:16:11

Q. What kind of safety decisions are you
referring to?

10:16:05

10:16:07
10:16:12

10:16:14

A. It could be, for example, how to understand a 10:16:19
new technology or a new application of

10:16:27

safety, a new safety standard, a new adoption 10:16:34
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or new application area.

10:16:37

1

Q. When you say a new adoption, what do you
mean?

10:16:40

10:16:44

Committee, NPC.

2 Q. What else?

10:19:38
10:19:42

3 A. I'm also co-chair, private sector co-chair of 10:19:44

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A. For example, if a jurisdiction is looking to

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incorporate, say, residential sprinklers in

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the jurisdiction, they may want to utilize an 10:16:54

6 Q. What does that stand for?

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NFPA standard, an installation standard. And 10:16:57

7 A. It's a Homeland Security working group around 10:20:00

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as part of their regulation, I will spend

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different issues that the nation is facing

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around Homeland Security and -- Homeland

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10
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10:16:44

10:17:03

10:17:05

document, but it's HDSCC, I believe.

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Q. To whom else do you make presentations as

10:17:10

NFPA's primary technical spokesman?

the -- I apologize, I don't recall the exact

5

10:17:01

time with them explaining the standard,
explain the requirements.

4

10:16:51

10:17:23

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Q. Who else?

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A. Peer standards developers is another example. 10:17:46

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Q. Sorry?

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A. Peer standards developers, we refer to them

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10:17:53
10:17:53

as SDOs, standards development organizations. 10:17:58
10:18:01

10:18:03

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10:18:03

The most common example I would say is

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working with ANSI, the American National

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Standards Institute, which brings together a

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lot of standards developers. So that's the

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spent engaged in ANSI-related activities?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Lacks foundation.

10:20:32

10:20:37
10:20:43

10:20:46
10:20:47

devoted to ANSI-related activities?

10:20:56

10:21:04

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:21:06

22 A. It depends. Some days may be a one-hour call 10:21:09

10:18:13

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10:18:16

best example I can give you of a place where
we chat about standards operations.

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10:18:19

10:18:23

Q. Is ANSI a peer or an umbrella organization?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:18:25

10:18:28

A. ANSI is a federation of membership

or some days may be a full-day meeting.

24 Q. I'm just trying to get clear, you do

10:18:17

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only specific ANSI activities that I have.

19 Q. Is that ten days per year where the days are

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10:20:19

18 A. Maybe ten days per year, approximately.
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A. Again, there's a lot of them, so it depends.

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10:20:11

10:20:16

14 Q. How much of your time as an NFPA employee is

Q. Which ones do you have in mind when you say
that?

10:20:06

12 A. To the best of my recollection, those are the 10:20:20

A. Industry groups is another example.
10:17:45

10:19:54
10:19:59

Security is the best way to describe it.

11 Q. What else?

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10:17:26

10:19:53

10:18:30

10:21:13
10:21:17

ANSI-related work on only ten days during the 10:21:21
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year or ten full days per year with other

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activities? How do you divide it? How do

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you mean ten days?

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10:21:23
10:21:26

10:21:30

A. The way I would describe it is approximately, 10:21:31

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to the best of my recollection, I'm just

10:21:35

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organization for standards developers as well 10:18:36

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thinking now, is only ten days a year.

10:21:36

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as organizations that are impacted by

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Not -- I don't view it as ten full days, but

10:21:40

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9
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standards.

10:18:40

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there's probably ten times per year where I'm 10:21:43

10:18:45

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involved in ANSI activities. On a couple of

10:18:48

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occasions, they're full-day activities.

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Q. Does that include any type of activity

10:18:42

Q. Does NFPA belong to ANSI?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

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Q. Is it a member of ANSI?

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A. Yes.

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Q. Do you have any position within ANSI?

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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

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10:18:49

Vague and ambiguous.

10:18:51
10:19:01

10:19:02

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something like a section. I'm a member of

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their executive standards council as an

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example.

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10:19:04
10:19:11

10:19:13

10:19:15

Q. What other memberships or committees or units 10:19:16
within ANSI do you have?

10:19:21

A. I'm also a member of the Organizational
Member Forum or OMF.

10:19:23
10:19:26

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Q. Anything else?

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A. I'm also a member of the National Policy

whether you're sending e-mails to people at

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ANSI and the like?

10:21:55

10:21:57

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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

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10:21:58

A. Honestly, I don't keep track of each and

10:22:00

10:19:32

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every e-mail, so I wouldn't know. When you

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asked me the question, I'm estimating how

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many days that I have -- I have an ANSI day,

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A. I am a member of a few of their equivalent,

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10:21:52

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10:18:51

10:21:45

10:21:48

there's something going on, formal.
Q. What are your duties at NFPA as chief

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engineer, apart from being the primary

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technical spokesman?

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10:22:48

MR. REHN: Objection to form. Asked 10:22:53
and answered.

10:22:54

A. Chief engineer. That's my primary, the

10:22:59
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technical aspects.

10:23:03

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A. Primarily around the media interviews.

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Q. What do you do in your role as chief engineer 10:23:08

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Q. Any other ways?

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internally within NFPA when you're not giving 10:23:18

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A. The primary, from a public communications

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maybe interviews or speaking at public

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resource outreach aspect, is through media

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forums?

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inquiries, media interviews and media

10:23:25

10:23:27

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A. The only thing I can think of is acting as

10:23:33

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part of the senior management team in

10:23:39

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day-to-day operations.

10:23:41

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Q. Do you provide technical input within NFPA?

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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

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It's vague.

Q. Do you provide technical information or

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technical assistance within NFPA as chief

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engineer?

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10:24:09
10:24:14

10:24:16

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information internally.

10:24:24

10:24:27

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Q. Are you a resource for technical information

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internally within NFPA in your role as chief

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engineer at NFPA?

10:24:28

Q. Who else within the organization calls upon
engineer?

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Q. Who else?

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differing viewing points of interest,
interest categories as well as the public in

10:28:32

order to develop our codes and standards.

10:28:43

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:28:51
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A. One way is through our technical committee
meetings.

10:28:53

10:28:55

Q. How else does NFPA bring them together?

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A. Through our annual meeting.

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Q. How else?

A. Through special, specially called topical
meetings.

10:29:01

10:29:07
10:29:10
10:29:17

10:29:23

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A. That's all I can think of off the top of my

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head.

10:29:28

Q. And what does NFPA do to bring them together? 10:29:57
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Vague.

10:30:05

10:30:07

A. With respect to our technical committee

10:25:59

meeting and book the meeting facility and

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10:26:06

Q. Anything else?

10:30:30

MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:30:32

A. To clarify, with respect to committee
meetings?

10:26:12

10:30:35

10:30:37

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Q. Yes.

A. We publicly promote them, as all of our

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10:30:10

meetings, we, through the committee, call the 10:30:12
host the meeting.

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10:29:41

10:29:57

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10:25:48

10:29:29

10:29:40

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Q. In what respect do they call upon you for

10:28:39

Q. How does NFPA bring them together?

Q. How else?

10:25:37

upon you for your technical expertise?

10:28:35

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A. Yes, they're part of the senior management

your technical expertise?

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10:25:45

MR. REHN: Objection.

development process that brings together many 10:28:27

A. Through technical forums and summits.

10:25:35

Q. Do outreach public affairs personnel call

10:28:24

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10:25:15

A. I really can't think of another aspect of

team.

10:28:20

Q. How else?

10:25:21

MR. REHN: Same objection.
that.

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
A. NFPA has an open consensus standards

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10:25:18

Q. Who else?

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10:28:09
10:28:18

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A. At times marketing and such like that, things 10:25:27

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of minimum safety; is that right?

10:25:09

10:25:08

MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:27:19

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operation team, which I'm responsible for.

like that.

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10:25:04

MR. REHN: Same objection.

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10:25:01

10:25:08

A. The standards -- codes and standards

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10:27:09

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10:24:59

you for your technical expertise as chief

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10:27:06

consensus process to determine the best level 10:28:15

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A. I would view the senior management team as an 10:24:52

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10:27:02

of interested parties who participate in a

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10:24:48

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Q. You say that NFPA brings together a multitude 10:27:22

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10:24:41
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10:24:44

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
example of those that would call upon me.

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A. Not off the top of my head, no, I do not.

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Q. Who within the organization calls upon you

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Q. You don't recall any of the subjects?

10:24:36

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10:26:49

A. I don't recall.

10:24:37

for your engineering expertise?

A. I don't know. Approximately ten.

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10:24:31

A. Yes, I view myself as a resource.

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10:26:41

10:26:48

Q. On what subjects?

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10:24:35

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in the past year?

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10:24:19

just not connecting with providing technical

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MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:26:40

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10:24:19

A. Could you clarify your question? To me it's

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responses when I'm requested.

Q. How many media interviews have you given

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10:24:07

MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:26:32
10:26:37

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A. I'm not sure I understand the question.

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10:26:21

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10:24:06

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10:24:03

10:26:12

10:26:15

10:30:38
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meetings are open to anyone who wishes to

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attend.

10:30:44

3

Q. Anything else?

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A. No. I think that covers it.

5

Q. What do you mean by call the meeting, NFPA

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10:30:46

technical committee meetings.

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10:30:55

10:31:06

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A. We provide advance public notice when we call 10:31:08

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the meeting, including on our website, social 10:31:12

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media announcements to the committee members

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portion of their job is to attend the

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10:30:49

calls the meeting?

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2

10:30:46

10:31:16

when they attend them?

10:33:39

10:33:45

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10:33:45

A. Their primary responsibility is to capture

10:33:46

all of the technical changes that the

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committee is making to the document they're

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10

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aware of the next meeting date, location,

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et cetera.

10:31:22

10:33:36

Q. What do the liaisons do at those meetings

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to make not only the committee but the public 10:31:20
10:31:26

10:33:33

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10:33:51
10:33:54

working on or standard they're working on.

10:33:57

Q. What do you mean by technical changes in that 10:34:02
context?

10:34:24

A. Our technical committees are responsible for

10:34:27

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Q. How does NFPA book the meeting?

10:31:29

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developing changes to our codes and

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A. We have a meetings department whose

10:31:34

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standards. And one of the primary

15

responsibilities of the technical staff

10:34:37

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liaison is to capture those changes.

10:34:39

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responsibility is to book all of our

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meetings.

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10:31:38
10:31:41

Q. Does that mean to arrange the logistics, like 10:31:42

18

the hotels and conferences rooms and things

19

like that?

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10:31:47

10:31:50

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10:34:31
10:34:34

Q. In what respect are those changes technical
changes?

10:34:50

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A. The meetings department is responsible -MR. REHN: Objection to form.

10:31:52
10:31:51

A. Those changes are specific, technical being

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scientific or wording changes to our codes

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10:31:56

10:34:46
10:34:53
10:34:57

and standards which are technical documents.
Q. How do you distinguish between scientific

A. The meetings department is responsible for

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taking care of finding a proper hotel, large

10:32:02

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changes and wording changes to the technical

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enough meeting rooms, things like that.

10:32:04

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documents?

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Whatever the size of the logistics, they

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10:32:07

10:35:01
10:35:08

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10:35:11

10:35:17

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10:35:18

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handle all the logistics around that meeting

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space and any required hotels.

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10:32:09

10:32:12

Q. How does NFPA host the meeting?

10:32:14

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10:32:20

Q. I should say how does NFPA host the meetings? 10:32:24
MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:32:28

A. I think the best approach is that because

10:32:29

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Lacks foundation. Mischaracterizes the

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testimony.

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10:35:19

10:35:22

A. A technical change, in my view, would be

10:35:22

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changing a specific requirement. A wording

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change may be a change the committee could do 10:35:32

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if they have determined that the requirement

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is confusing or not clear what the specific

10:35:28
10:35:34
10:35:36

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it's an NFPA meeting, so it's -- we're

10:32:31

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requirement is, so they may adjust the

10:35:40

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calling -- when I say we're calling the

10:32:36

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wording to make it easier to interpret or

10:35:41

understand what that actual technical

10:35:45

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meeting, so it's our committee meeting as an

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example.

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10:32:41

staff is there facilitating and running the
meeting along with the actual volunteer

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should clarify what I'm implying by

10:32:46

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"hosting."

committee chairs?

10:33:17

technical committee meetings?

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A. Okay. We have a technical staff liaison

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10:33:20
10:33:23

Q. Yes.

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MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Ambiguous.

10:35:48
10:35:52

10:35:55

10:35:56

A. It's a combination of extensive public review 10:35:58

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10:32:57

10:33:15

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appropriate in the technical committees?

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10:32:56

A. Again, just to clarify, just focusing on

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10:32:50

Q. How does the NFPA staff facilitate and run
the meetings along with the technical

10:35:46

Q. Who determines what wording changes are

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10:32:54

requirement is.

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10:32:48

technical committee chair. So I think that

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10:32:41

So NFPA staff is there, technical

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10:32:37

and comment, the committee's review of that

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and their expertise and with the help of our

19

technical staff to land on the final wording, 10:36:09

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which is ultimately decided by the technical

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committee.

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10:33:25

10:36:13

10:36:15

Q. What criteria do the members of the technical 10:36:23

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10:33:24

10:36:02
10:36:05

committee use in choosing the wording of a

24

code or standard?

25
who's assigned to each of our standards and a 10:33:30
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10:36:38

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10:36:39
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Lacks foundation.

10:36:41

A. Ultimately those decisions are based upon the 10:36:43
technical committee members' expertise and
knowledge within the field.

10:36:47

10:36:50

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Q. And when you say that the technical staff

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liaison has a responsibility to capture all

10:37:00
10:37:18

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of the technical changes that the committee

8

is making to the document, what do you mean

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10

by capture?

10:37:22
10:37:26

10:37:28

A. NFPA has a very robust standards development

10:37:29

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platform that allows our committees to work

10:37:36

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on the text within the document. And the

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technical staff captures those changes in the 10:37:43

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system so that we can then support that staff 10:37:46

15

with editorial changes and such before

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publication.

10:37:40

10:37:51

10:37:54

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Q. I still don't understand what you mean by

18

capture in that context. You said that the

19

technical staff captures those changes. What 10:38:07

20

do you mean by capture there?

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10:38:00
10:38:02
10:38:12

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10:38:13

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A. The committee makes a decision. It is the

23

responsibility of the technical staff to not

24

only just record those changes, but

25

understand the technical context that the

10:38:15
10:38:18

10:38:22
10:38:25

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development process. A piece of that is, for 10:39:45
example, compliance with our manual of style. 10:39:50
Q. What form does that support take?
10:39:57
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
10:40:03
A. It takes several forms. First and foremost 10:40:07
is to capture the specific text or record the 10:40:10
specific technical changes that occurred at 10:40:14
the meeting.
10:40:17
Q. Anything else?
10:40:17
A. Second is to ensure that the wording is in 10:40:26
compliance with our manual style.
10:40:32
Q. Anything else?
10:40:39
A. Also the technical staff is there to ensure 10:40:40
that the new or modified requirements align 10:40:47
with the remainder of the document.
10:40:51
Q. Anything else?
10:40:58
A. They also spend time reviewing those
10:41:05
requirements, the technical staff does, to
10:41:10
make sure they don't establish conflicting 10:41:12
requirements with other portions of that
10:41:14
document or other NFPA standards.
10:41:18
Q. Anything else?
10:41:21
A. Another responsibility is to come back to
10:41:25
NFPA to their offices and ensure that our
10:41:32
editorial production team has full knowledge 10:41:34

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committee is trying to accomplish to ensure 10:38:27
that when those changes go out for ballot to 10:38:29
our technical committees, it's accurate.
10:38:32
Q. That it accurately reflects what the
10:38:35
technical committee intended to produce?
10:38:38
A. The primary job -10:38:41
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
10:38:43
A. The primary job of the technical staff
10:38:44
liaison is to ensure that any recorded
10:38:46
actions accurately reflect that intent of the 10:38:48
technical committee.
10:38:51
MR. REHN: If I can just remind the 10:38:52
witness to give me a chance to object after 10:38:53
the question is asked. Helps the court
10:38:56
reporter out if we're not talking over each 10:39:03
other.
10:39:06
A. Sorry.
10:39:07
Q. You mentioned some sort of the editorial
10:39:16
activity in support of the technical
10:39:30
committees; is that correct?
10:39:35
MR. REHN: Object to form.
10:39:35
Q. You used the word "editorial." I didn't
10:39:36
quite understand the context.
10:39:39
A. There's an extensive amount of support that 10:39:41
NFPA staff provides to our standards
10:39:43

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of those changes as they modify the --

10:41:39

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develop the next edition of the standard.

10:41:43

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Q. Anything else?

4

A. There's an extensive amount of back and forth 10:42:08

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10:41:48

between the editorial and production staff

6

and the technical staff to finalize the

7

language prior to balloting.

10:42:11
10:42:14

10:42:18

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Q. Anything else?

9

A. Once the language is finalized, the technical 10:42:31

10:42:27

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staff works with our project administrators

11

to develop a technical committee ballot which 10:42:41

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is then circulated to that technical

13

committee.

10:42:37

10:42:44
10:42:44

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Q. Anything else?

15

A. Once the ballot is completed and approved,

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10:42:51
10:43:16

the technical staff, working with the project 10:43:22

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administrators, then circulates the ballot of 10:43:23

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the proposed changes to that full technical

19

committee.

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10:43:27

10:43:30

Q. Do they circulate the proposed ballot or
the actual ballot to the full technical
committee?

10:43:39
10:43:39

10:43:39

A. The actual ballot. The actual ballot is

10:44:03

submitted to the committee for formal voting. 10:44:07
Q. Anything else?

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A. Once the initial ballot is complete, the
10:44:18
results are then recirculated to the
10:44:21
committee to ensure -- to finalize the
10:44:23
results.
10:44:45
Q. When you say the results are recirculated
10:44:45
to the committee, does that mean the vote
10:44:47
tally or the text that was the subject of the 10:44:49
ballot for vote?
10:44:54
MR. REHN: Object to form.
10:44:57
A. Both.
10:45:00
Q. So when the initial ballot is complete, the 10:45:00
technical committee receives a report of the 10:45:03
results and the presumptive final language of 10:45:07
the change; is that correct?
10:45:12
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
10:45:13
A. No.
10:45:17
Q. How is that incorrect?
10:45:19
A. The final text is what's being balloted.
10:45:20
Q. When you say the results are recirculated to 10:45:28
the committee to finalize the results; is
10:45:32
that what you said?
10:46:06
A. Mm-hmm.
10:46:07
Q. What does it mean to finalize the results?
10:46:08
A. We have an initial ballot. Our committee
10:46:13
members vote, then we provide another
10:46:16

1
2

A. Through our online codes and standards
system.

10:47:46

10:47:49

3

Q. What happens after the public comment period? 10:47:55

4

A. The technical committee meets and reviews

10:48:00

5

each public comment.

6

Q. Then what happens?

7

A. The technical committee determines if any --

10:48:24

8

excuse me. The technical committee develops

10:48:29

9

10:48:05
10:48:08

responses to each of those public comments.

10

Q. Then what happens?

11

10:48:31

A. The technical committee determines if any

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10:48:40
10:48:43

further revisions or changes are required to
address those public comments.

10:48:48
10:48:52

Q. Then what happens when the technical

10:49:03

committee determines that further changes are 10:49:06
required?

10:49:08

17

A. They would develop a second revision.

18

Q. And what would happen -- what would happen

19
20
21
22

after a second revision?

10:49:11

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:49:26

A. The technical staff liaison would then
capture or record that change.

10:49:28
10:49:31

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Q. Then what would happen?

24

A. They would then -- the technical staff would

10:49:37

25

then integrate one or more changes, whatever

10:49:43
10:49:46
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opportunity for the committee members to see

2

all the votes and the reasons the committee

10:46:21

2

Q. And then what happens?

3

voted a certain way to decide if they want to 10:46:24

3

A. The technical staff would then return to NFPA 10:49:59

4

either change their vote or keep their vote

4

and ensure that all of the technical changes

5

the same.

5

were properly captured and in compliance with 10:50:08

6
7

10:46:26

10:46:28

Q. And with that information is another copy of
the text that was the subject of the ballot?

8

A. No.

9

A. Yes.
Q. Then what happens?

13

A. Once the ballot results are final, a first
Q. Then what happens?

A. There's a period of open public comment on
Q. How long does that last?

19

A. It varies, but approximately ten weeks long.

20

Q. How does the public have access to that

23
24
25

proposed changes at that time?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:50:34

properly recorded and captured within the

10:50:37

10:50:40

Q. Then what happens?

14

A. Once the editorial and production team has

10:50:46
10:50:56

10:47:28

finalized their work, the technical staff

16

liaison again reviews all the changes to

10:51:04

ensure that they remain an accurate

10:51:06

18

10:47:20

10:51:01

reflection of the intent and the wording that 10:51:09

19

the technical committee established.

10:51:12

10:47:36

20

Q. Then what happens?

21

10:47:35

Q. How does the public have access to the

of the proposed technical changes are
draft document.

10:50:25

10:50:29

17

10:47:19

MR. REHN: Objection to form.

editorial and production team to ensure all

15

10:47:12

10:47:17

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22

10:50:24

13

10:47:10

comment at the time?

A. The technical staff would then work with the

12

10:46:51

16

21

10:50:12

11

10:46:48

draft report is published for public comment. 10:46:55

that document.

10:50:05

Q. Then what happens?

10

10:46:47

15
17

our manual style.

10:49:49
10:49:57

9

10:46:46

12

6

was appropriate, into the draft document.

8
10:46:43

descriptions of the votes?

1

7

10:46:40

11

14

10:46:31

10:46:37

Q. They just get the results and the

10

10:46:19

10:49:18

10:49:22

A. The technical staff liaison then works with

22

10:47:37

23
24

10:47:41

25

10:47:44

10:51:15

the project administrators to develop a
ballot for the technical committee.

10:51:23
10:51:26

10:51:30

Q. Then does the ballot process, after that

10:51:35

point, follow the same process you described

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earlier?

10:51:39

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3

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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
A. For the second draft we repeat the same

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ballot process.

10:51:43

10:51:46

of my recollection, the only other motions

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10:51:40

that are available are variations of those

3

main motions.

4

Q. After the same ballot process, is the revised 10:51:47
language again laid open for public comment?

5

10:51:54

7

produce a second draft report.

10:52:04

Q. And what happens with that second draft
report?

8

10:52:08

10:52:12

9
10

A. The second draft report is open for what we

10:52:12

term as NITMAM's, N I T M A M, apostrophe S.

10:52:16

motions you've referred to decided?

10:55:34

10:55:37

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:55:40

A. It's a multistep process which starts with

10:55:42

someone submitting a NITMAM, again, a notice
of intent to make a motion.

10:55:52

Q. Take me through the rest of the process,
please.

12

10:55:49

10:55:55

10:55:57

MR. REHN: Objection as to form,

10:55:58

13

Q. What does that mean?

14

A. It's a notice for an intent to make a motion. 10:52:28

14

15

Q. What does that mean?

15

person who wishes to submit a NITMAM would,

16

A. If someone continues to or is not happy with

16

through our online system, fill out a form

17

and say what motion they wish to make.

17

10:52:24

11

10:55:29

Q. How are the motions -- how are these various

6

A. After the second draft meeting and ballot, we 10:52:00

10:55:24
10:55:26

10:52:38

the results of the process at this point,

18

debate.

10:52:53
10:53:01

A. It depends on the type of motion they're

10:53:04

A. For example, one example is to overturn a

25

change the committee has proposed at the

A. The next step is that motion is captured by

10:53:17

Q. Take me through the whole process, please.

24

25
10:53:23
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make that motion.

2

5

10:53:31

Q. What other types of motions can continue the

10:53:35

3

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
A. The next step is our standard administration

staff provides an initial review to make sure 10:56:46
the motion is in order.

6

10:54:00

7

8

A. The submitter of that public comment.

10:54:07

8

9

Q. What other types of motions can occur after

13

the technical committee to start all over

15

again?

17

11

10:54:41

17

and it would return it back to the technical

10:54:45

18

committee in its entirety for further action. 10:54:48

19

22

the second draft report?

10:54:57

23

would rely on our regulations,

24

government-committed projects, there's a

25

table of motions in there, but, to the best

10:57:11

report to a motions committee of our
standards council.

10:57:14
10:57:17

20

answered my question.

10:57:25

10:57:28

MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for a
narrative.

10:57:30

10:57:31

MR. REHN: Yes, same objection and
it's a compound question.

10:57:33

10:57:34

A. The next step of the process is that

10:57:37

10:55:18
10:55:22

subcommittee of our standards council, the

22

motions committee reviews those motions and

23

10:55:14

determines if they're in order or not in

24

order.

25

10:55:22

10:57:22

10:57:24

21

10:55:00

A. The only other motions, and in this case I

administration review, is to then provide a

Q. Please continue your answer till you've

16

10:54:41

Q. What other types of motion can occur after

A. The next step of the process, after standards 10:57:07

A. No.

19
21

10:57:03

10:57:05

13
15

10:54:40

A. Returning the document is for new standards,

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's compound.

14

10:54:30

10:54:38

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

10:57:02

Q. Is that your complete answer to my question?

18
20

10:56:56

12

10:54:28

Q. Does that mean return the entire document to

9
10

10:54:21

14
16

10:54:13

A. In some cases you can make a motion to return 10:54:24
the entire document.

10:56:48

Q. I've asked you to take me through the whole
the end of the process.

A. Another motion is to accept a public comment. 10:53:53

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10:56:40
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5

10:53:51

Q. Who can make that kind of motion?

11

10:56:34
10:56:38

process. Please continue, and continue until 10:56:59

7

the second draft report?

10:56:32
10:56:34

4

10:53:51

6

10

10:56:17

10:56:24

23

second draft stage. In that case, anyone can 10:53:25

debate?

our standards administration staff.
A. No.

2
4

10:56:16

Q. Is that all?

1
3

10:56:13

21

10:53:12

10:56:07

10:56:10

22

Q. What are the different types of motions?

24

10:56:02

Q. Keep going.

20

10:53:11

23

10:56:01

19

Q. Who can make such a motion?

21

vague, compound.
A. The first part of that process is that a

18

10:52:55

20

making.

10:52:39

10:52:48

they can file a motion to continue the

19

22

13

10:57:45

10:57:46

10:57:48

Q. So that's your testimony as to what the

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complete process is?

10:58:09

2

A. No.

3

Q. My question was please describe the complete

4

process.

5
6

10:58:10
10:58:14

MR. REHN: Same objection.

10:58:15

Q. Can you please answer my questions.

7

10:58:16

MR. REHN: It calls for a narrative

8
9

objecting on that basis.

10:58:19

answer. It's a compound question. I'm

10:58:21

10:58:22

10

MR. BRIDGES: You can make that

11

objection, but that's not an instruction not

12
13

10:58:11

10:58:22
10:58:23

to answer the question as I've asked.

10:58:25

Q. So I'm not sure why you have a hard time

10:58:28

14

answering the question I have given you. I'm 10:58:31

15

asking you to lay out the rest of the

16

complete process.

17
18
19

10:58:33
10:58:35

MR. REHN: Same objections.

10:58:36

A. The next step of the process after the

10:58:39

motions committee reviews it, there is a vote 10:58:42

20

of the motions committee to determine what

21

motions are in order or not in order and a

10:58:47

22

motions committee report is published.

10:58:50

23
24

10:58:44

Q. Do you have anything further to say in answer 10:58:54
to the question?

25

10:58:57

MR. REHN: Same objection. It's

10:58:58

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12
13
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16
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18
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there's many, many steps. Each one has
11:00:23
multiple points.
11:00:25
Q. Please take me through it.
11:00:28
MR. REHN: Same objections.
11:00:30
Q. Please tell me what the steps are and the
11:00:31
multiple points are in that process and tell 11:00:35
me when your answer is complete.
11:00:37
MR. REHN: Same objections.
11:00:38
Compound question.
11:00:39
A. For clarification, I'd like you to state
11:00:41
where you would like me to start.
11:00:44
Q. Where you left off.
11:00:45
A. After the appeal process, if there's none,
11:00:48
then that would be the motions committee
11:00:57
report, which would be the agenda for our
11:00:59
technical committee session.
11:01:01
Q. Tell me when you're answer is complete.
11:01:14
MR. REHN: Objection as to form. If 11:01:17
there's a specific question pending -11:01:20
MR. BRIDGES: There is a specific
11:01:25
question pending.
11:01:25
MR. REHN: The question is extremely 11:01:25
broad. It's calling for a long narrative
11:01:28
answer and it's compound. It's vague. And 11:01:31
he's answering the question.
11:01:33

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2
3

vague now, in addition.
process, my answer is complete.

10:59:06

Q. I'm asking you to tell me about the complete

5

process. For some reason you're resisting

6

giving an answer to the question I've made.

7

I'm asking you for a complete answer to

8

describe the entire process.

10:59:09

4
5

10:59:12
10:59:14

6

MR. BRIDGES: Your objections are
noted.

MR. REHN: Is there a question
pending?

11:01:35

11:01:36
11:01:37

11:01:38

MR. BRIDGES: Yes, there is.

11:01:39

MR. REHN: I'm not aware of it.

11:01:40

7

A. Can you please restate the question for me.

8

10:59:17

10:59:19

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

2
3

10:59:08

4

9

1

10:59:01

A. To the point that we have come to in the

Page 44

Q. Please tell me what the steps are and the

9

10:59:21

10

10:59:22

11:01:44
11:01:52

multiple points that are in that process and

11:02:03

tell me when your answer is complete.

11:02:07

10

Argumentative, calls for a compound. It's a

11

compound question, calls for a narrative.

12

You're now pretty vague about what we're even 10:59:27

12

13

talking about.

13

It's clearly a compound question, and I

11:02:15

14

object on that basis in addition to the form

11:02:19

of the question and the other objections that 11:02:23

11

10:59:25

10:59:30

14

Q. You may answer.

10:59:33

15

A. Once the motions committee report is

10:59:37

15

16

published, there is an opportunity for appeal 10:59:40

16

17

or challenge of that motions committee

17

18

report.

10:59:43

A. No.

21

Q. Tell me when your answer is complete, please. 10:59:52

10:59:50

10:59:52
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:02:27

A. Again, for clarification, you picked one

11:02:29

because our process is a long process and

related to our process, I'd be happy to

21

answer that.

11:02:41

11:02:45

Q. I want you to complete describing the process 11:02:45

11:00:19

23

that I asked you about. I asked you to take

me through the whole process and the multiple 11:02:51

25

11:00:15

25

11:02:40

24

11:00:07

A. I would ask that you restate the question

11:02:34

complete. If you have a specific question

22

11:00:06

24

point in our process and my answer is not

20

20

Argumentative. It's a compound question.

we've noted.

11:02:13

19

Q. So is your answer now complete?

23

11:02:11

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

18

10:59:47

19

22

A. Again, for clarification.

points. I'm asking you to give a complete

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description.
11:02:58
2
MR. REHN: Same objection.
11:03:00
3 Q. That's a fair question and if you're refusing 11:03:01
4
to answer, that's fine. Are you saying
11:03:03
5
you're refusing to answer my question?
11:03:05
6
MR. REHN: Same objection.
11:03:07
7
Argumentative. Mischaracterizes what the
11:03:08
8
witness has said. And if you have a specific 11:03:12
9
question about the process, please ask that 11:03:16
10
question.
11:03:18
11
MR. BRIDGES: No, I have a general 11:03:18
12
question about the process that I'm asking
11:03:20
13
him to give me a complete answer to.
11:03:22
14 Q. So please keep going.
11:03:23
15
MR. REHN: We registered our
11:03:24
16
objections to that question.
11:03:26
17
MR. BRIDGES: Many times.
11:03:26
18
MR. REHN: It's vague. It's
11:03:27
19
compound.
11:03:28
20
MR. BRIDGES: And you've not
11:03:28
21
instructed him not to answer.
11:03:30
22
MR. FEE: It's obvious the witness 11:03:31
23
doesn't understand what you're asking.
11:03:33
24
MR. BRIDGES: No, he understands
11:03:34
25
what I'm asking.
11:03:35

1

all you want. And if he's not answering,

11:04:20

2

the record will show that. We can take a

11:04:22

3

break. If he wants to look back through the

11:04:23

4

transcript and understand what the question

11:04:25

5

is, fine. Let's go off the record.

6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

11:04:26

MR. REHN: Okay. We can go off the
record.

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:04.
We are now off the record.

11:04:34

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:14.
We are now back on the record.

11:14:32

identification.)
BY MR. BRIDGES:

11:14:32
11:14:36

Q. Mr. Dubay, I've handed you Exhibit 1227, I

17

believe that is. What is that document?

18

A. To me it appears to be a portion of our

20

11:14:13

11:14:26

(Exhibit 1227 marked for

15

19

11:04:31

11:04:33

(Break taken)

14
16

11:04:29

11:04:31

11:14:36

11:14:42
11:14:45

regulations governing committee projects, our 11:14:51
actual standards directory.

11:14:55

21

Q. You say it's a portion of the regulations?

22

A. I'll correct that slightly, that I believe

11:14:59

11:14:57

23

it's a portion of our directory which

11:15:02

24

includes our regulations. And it appears to

11:15:04

25

be, to the best of my quick review, a set of

11:15:09

Page 46

1 Q. Please proceed.
11:03:36
1
2
MR. REHN: Please proceed? Is there 11:03:38
2
3
a question pending? Can you please ask a
11:03:40 3
4
question.
11:03:42
4
5
MR. BRIDGES: The question is
11:03:42
5
6
pending.
11:03:43
6
7
MR. REHN: Can you repeat the
11:03:45
7
8
question.
11:03:46
8
9
MR. BRIDGES: We'll go off the
11:03:46
9
10
record and then I can repeat it to him and
11:03:48
10
11
let him soak it in as long as he wants, but 11:03:51
11
12
he's wasted so much time in this fashion
11:03:55 12
13
and you've wasted time with the objections. 11:03:56 13
14
I'm trying to get a straightforward answer
11:03:58 14
15
about the process. Let's go off the record 11:04:01
15
16
and he can -11:04:02
16
17
MR. REHN: Andrew, we're not going 11:04:02 17
18
off the record quite yet. Your points are
11:04:03
18
19
poorly taken. Your question is improper, and 11:04:06 19
20
you're the one wasting time by not asking
11:04:08 20
21
specific questions to invoke specific answers 11:04:11 21
22
rather than improper, general, compound and 11:04:14 22
23
vague questions.
11:04:16
23
24
MR. BRIDGES: They're not
11:04:16
24
25
objectionable. You can make your objections 11:04:17 25

Page 48
our current regulations.

11:15:11

Q. This is a complete set of the current
regulations, correct?

11:15:13
11:15:15

A. The best I can tell just flipping through, it 11:15:17
looks complete.

11:15:20

Q. These are the regulations that set forth

11:15:21

the process that we were discussing before

11:15:23

the break in the deposition; is that correct? 11:15:24
A. Yes.

11:15:27

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:15:28

Q. Do they contain a complete set of the

11:15:29

procedures used in the development of NFPA
standards?

11:15:35

11:15:41

A. Yes, these are our regulations which define
how our standards process works.

11:15:43

11:15:46

Q. And it defines the various entities such as

11:15:48

committees and councils that participate in

11:15:54

that process; is that correct?

11:15:57

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:16:01

A. The regulations actually cover our operations 11:16:03
from our standards council through the
committees, through the development of the
standards as well as through such things as
tentative interim amendments and formal
interpretations.

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11:16:12
11:16:16

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Q. Is there anything about the development of

2

standards that the regulations do not cover?

3

11:16:19
11:16:21

rules and hence, its regulations. We also

5

have our committee officers guide which

11:20:27

2

11:16:33
11:16:35

categories, including -- one example is

3

research and testing is an example. Another

4

A. Our regulations cover the specific accredited 11:16:27

4

1 A. There are, I believe, nine interest

11:20:31

example is enforcer, which includes

5

government officials, both, sometimes federal 11:20:44

11:20:37

11:20:40

6

provides guidance to our technical committee

11:16:37

6

but state and local jurisdictions, as well as 11:20:48

7

members as well as our chairs and our manual

11:16:41

7

special expert, which is consultants as an

8

style.

8

example.

9
10
11
12
13

11:16:46

Q. What other documents govern or regulate the
development of standards within NFPA?

Who are the members, generally

15

speaking, the category of NFPA's technical

16

committees?

17

11:18:20

11:18:26

are they members of NFPA? We have
categories -- we have interest categories of

20

our committee members.

21
22

11:18:36

Q. Who -- what persons are entitled to be

technical committee, and based upon their

expertise and their background, they're
evaluated through a process that ultimately

3

involves standards council appointing them

4

to, or not appointing, depending on their

5

credentials, to the various technical

11:18:55

the technical committees?

11:22:16

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:19:07

stated previously, it's important -- there's
an important role that NFPA staff plays in

guiding, advising the committee, coordinating 11:22:35

24

the activities and providing their technical

11:22:30

into this committee process. But they do not 11:22:43
have -- they're not members of the committee, 11:22:46
and they do not carry a vote in the decisions 11:22:48

6
7

of the committees.

11:22:51

Q. Who constitutes by category of employment
is -- strike that.

9

council?

11:19:24

10

11

Q. What criteria does the standards council

12

apply in determining who should gain

13

11:19:21

membership to the technical committees?

12

matter. Second is balance; is the committee

18

an appropriate balance. And third is the

19

ability to participate.

11:23:17

A. I'd like to provide just a quick comment to
help you clarify the question from my

11:23:26

understanding. Oftentimes our council

11:23:27

members and our committee members are not
appointed based upon employment. It's based

17

upon the interest category they represent.

18

11:19:54
11:20:01

Q. Thank you, yes. By interest category --

19

11:20:02

strike that.

Q. What do you mean by balance?

21

A. By our regulations, NFPA technical committees 11:20:12

11:20:06

You mentioned interest categories

23

Q. Do the same interest categories apply for

interest category can dominate the process.

24

appointments or election to -- strike that.

25

How is the standards council -- strike that.

24

11:23:37

for technical committee membership, correct?

categories to ensure that no one party or one 11:20:18

23

11:23:33

21

A. Yes.

11:20:16
11:20:21
11:20:24
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11:23:31

11:23:43

22

are required to have a balance of interest

11:23:29

20

20
22

11:23:19

13

16

11:19:51

17

11:23:15

15

11:19:42

11:19:46

technical expertise within that subject

11:23:11

11:23:15

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's vague.

11:23:09

14

11:19:39

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
A. It's a multipart criteria. First is

11

11:19:27
11:19:35

11:23:01

11:23:08

By category of employment, who

11:19:23

A. That's correct.

11:22:37
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constitutes the members of the standards

10

11:22:32

expertise, especially technical staff liaison 11:22:40

8

committees?

11:22:27

3
5

11:19:14

9

11:22:23

22

4

11:19:10
11:19:12

Q. So the standards council determines who gains 11:19:17

Q. What are the interest categories?

11:22:20

2

11:19:04

admission to membership in the technical

25

11:21:38

of our technical committees. However, as I

1

11:19:01

8

16

18

11:18:59
25
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15

is labor, is another slot.

23

11:18:51

1

14

15

11:21:34

21

11:18:48

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

committees.

specific slot. Oh, I'm sorry, one other slot 11:21:35

20

11:18:43

members of NFPA's technical committees?
A. Anyone can apply to be a member of an NFPA

7

that can represent a special -- have a

19 A. NFPA employees are not -- cannot be members

11:18:43

24

6

11:21:30

17

11:18:39

23
25

11:21:13

if I said it, but consumer is another one

16 Q. Thank you. Are all NFPA employees members of 11:21:51

A. Just for clarification, the representation or 11:18:29

19

and that's all I can think of. I'm not sure

14

11:18:17

18

11:20:56

13

11:18:09

14

Users, installer maintainers which

are those who install the systems, consumers, 11:21:02

11

11:17:56

11:17:59

Q. Who participates in -- strike that.

9
10
12

A. Off the top of my head I can't think of
anything else.

11:16:46
11:17:44

11:20:52

11:20:56

11:23:44
11:23:47

11:23:49
11:23:49
11:23:53
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How are persons chosen to serve on
the standards council?

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11:24:06

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11:24:08

It's ambiguous.

11:26:54

A. The final decision is accomplished through

11:24:12

3

that ballot of the technical committee, but

11:24:15

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

2
4

the wording itself is that combination of the 11:27:01

A. Because the standards council is the

11:26:56
11:26:58

5

overarching body over our entire standards

11:24:18

5

technical staff and the committee working to

6

development process, they are appointed

11:24:21

6

capture the requirement and get it worded

7

through a process that involves the NFPA

11:24:24

7

properly in the right context, in the right

8

president making recommendations to the NFPA

8

order within a document so that when the

9

board of directors. Ultimately the standards 11:24:29

9

final specific words are balloted, the

11:24:27

11:27:05
11:27:07

11:27:09
11:27:12
11:27:14

10

council members are appointed by our board of 11:24:33

10

committee has it in context of the whole

11

directors.

11

standards and they can make that decision,

12

seeing it within the body of the standard.

12
13

11:24:35

Q. Are any NFPA employees members of the
standards council?

14

11:24:40

11:24:43

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

13

11:24:45

11:27:18
11:27:20
11:27:22

Q. When the text is balloted, is there any

11:27:24

14

indication to the members of the committee

11:24:49

15

what variations have occurred as a

16

technical committees, there is staff assigned 11:24:51

16

consequence of staff input from the text that 11:27:38

17

to support the standards council, their

17

the committee itself was proposing?

15

18
19

A. Specifically, no. However, similar to the

11:24:55

activities and their decisions.

11:24:58

decided on changes to a standard.

22

And you say that a staff

18

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

19

Vague. Lacks foundation. Assumes facts not

11:25:19

process after the technical committee has

21

11:27:43

11:25:11

Q. I'd like to go back for a moment to the

20

11:27:27

11:27:32

20

in evidence.

11:25:26

11:27:48

11:27:51

21

A. There are really two types of changes the

22

11:25:31

11:27:47

committee is balloted on. One is the -- a

11:27:53
11:27:57

23

representative, NFPA staff representative

23

plain first revision or second revision,

24

will capture those changes from the technical 11:25:41

24

which may have been edited to comply with our 11:28:04

25

committee, correct?

25

manual style, get the wording right. That is 11:28:07

11:25:38

11:25:44
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2
3

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

11:25:48

A. The NFPA technical staff that serves as, the

11:25:50

term we use is a staff liaison to a technical 11:25:54

4

committee, they do more than just capture the 11:25:56

5

specific wordings.

6

11:26:00

What they do is they are each

11:26:01

7

technical experts in their field and they not 11:26:03

8

only capture or record those changes, but

9

they provide their expertise to the

11:26:06
11:26:09

10

committee, their field experience, what they

11:26:11

11

have, the information that they're bringing

11:26:14

12

in through questions on the standards and

11:26:16

13

such.

11:26:18

14

And they provide that technical

11:26:19

15

expertise to the committee so the committee

16

can utilize that, a complete combination with 11:26:24

11:26:21

17

all the public input or comments, to land on

18

a final set of proposed language. In

19

summary, it's more than just recording.

20

They're not really recording secretaries, per 11:26:39

21

se.

11:26:27

11:26:32
11:26:37

11:26:43

22

Q. But who ultimately determines the language of 11:26:43

23

the technical committee's proposed changes to 11:26:47

24

a code or standard?

25

11:26:51

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:26:53

11:28:01

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2
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4
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6
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8
9
10
11
12
13
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15
16
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18
19
20
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22
23
24
25

connected directly to the work of the
11:28:09
committee. The second is a revision that's 11:28:11
tied to a pure editorial change.
11:28:15
Q. Do either of these sets of revisions get
11:28:19
identified to technical committee members so 11:28:24
that they can understand what input or
11:28:28
changes, if any, the technical committee
11:28:31
staff contributed?
11:28:35
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
11:28:41
A. Yes, they all do. All changes are indicated 11:28:44
to the technical committees for balloting.
11:28:48
And if there is, in the sense of an editorial 11:28:50
revision, it's indicated that this was
11:28:54
identified by staff as a potential editorial 11:28:57
revision. The committee can then, in their 11:29:01
voting, decide whether that change moves
11:29:05
forward or not.
11:29:10
Q. Where in the records of the development of
11:29:10
each standard does one find the indications 11:29:12
of those changes?
11:29:17
MR. REHN: Objection to the form. 11:29:21
A. They are part of the first draft report or, 11:29:25
and/or, depending, the second draft report. 11:29:29
Both those reports consolidate the whole
11:29:33
record.
11:29:35

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Q. Where does one find the first draft report
and the second draft report?

11:29:36

A. On our document information pages. We call
them doc info pages. It's our website.
any publicly available document?

11:30:05

A. Our process is completely open to the public. 11:30:14
All of those changes, documents, reports are

11:30:18

publicly available to anyone on our website.
Q. So I can go find the first draft report and
the second draft of any code or standard on

12

an NFPA's website?

11:30:21
11:30:25

14
15

11:30:27

18

document in a revision cycle or there is a

19

first or second report, it would be

20

available, absolutely.

21
22
23

11:30:49

fit the form of our manual style as well as

11:32:54

9

to be consistently worded with the technical

11:32:47

11:32:57

11:32:59

So each and every change has been

11:33:01

clarified or worked on by technical staff to
get it ready for committee ballot. So

there's an extensive amount of time. The NEC 11:33:11
is an excellent example of the NFPA staff get 11:33:15

16

it worded correctly and in proper format,
style and technical comments to be balloted

19

11:33:06
11:33:09

by the technical committee.

11:33:18
11:33:23

11:33:28

Q. Where can one detect what changes -- you used 11:33:28

20

the word "worked on," for example. That's a

21

little vague in this context. I would like

11:30:57

22

to know how one can identify any text

11:31:04

23

contributed by technical committee staff

11:33:42

24

liaison in any NFPA code or standard.

11:33:48

11:30:54

24

A. The 2008 NEC was published under our old,

25

excuse me, our old standards development

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

8

18

11:30:53

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:32:49

17

11:30:43

11:30:51

publicly available of the 2008 NEC?

staff, has been modified, been adjusted to

15

11:30:46

Q. Are the first or second draft reports

7

11:32:45

14

second draft report. Some documents at the
stage may not have one. So if there's a

document has been worked on by technical

11:32:36
11:32:39

13

11:30:40

17

any text that has been modified in the

body of the standard.

11:32:34

12

11:30:37

16

worked on by technical staff is, any changes, 11:32:42

5

11

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 11:30:34
vague as to time.

wording of a standard, what's been added or

10

11:30:30

A. I would say provided there is a first or

3

6

11:29:46

A. What I can say about when you look at the

4

11:29:40

MR. REHN: Same objection.

2

Q. Are any of the -- those changes identified in 11:29:52

11
13

1

11:29:38

11:31:07

11:31:14
25
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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:33:33

11:33:36
11:33:38

11:33:54
Page 60

system, so there would not be a first or
11:31:14
1
It's ambiguous. It's compound.
11:33:55
second draft report. There would be a report 11:31:17 2 A. Because -- how can I explain. Because
11:34:03
on proposals and a report on comments.
11:31:23 3
ultimately the final text, the changes are
11:34:06
Q. Does either of those reports show what
11:31:26 4
balloted by the technical committee,
11:34:10
changes in text may have been contributed by 11:31:30 5
oftentimes the staff's work on that text is 11:34:12
technical staff, technical committee
11:31:33
6
contained within the same wording that's
11:34:15
liaisons?
11:31:38
7
being balloted, the ultimate wording that's 11:34:17
A. All of the changes in our old system were
11:31:41 8
balloted by the committee.
11:34:20
contained within the proposals and action on 11:31:45 9
So in our old system, that was
11:34:21
proposals and comment and actions on
11:31:48 10
all -- when you see a change in the document, 11:34:22
comments, so, in some cases, they may have
11:31:50 11
you can know, and that's why I had my
11:34:24
been called out on the report and in some
11:31:53 12
previous answer, that staff was involved in 11:34:26
cases not.
11:31:56
13
that process.
11:34:28
Ultimately, all of them had been
11:31:57
14
In the new process that happens with 11:34:30
balloted through the technical committees.
11:31:58 15
every revision, every revision staff is
11:34:31
Whatever you see in the report on proposals 11:32:01 16
involved in and worked on and more or less
11:34:35
are comments that had gone through the
11:32:03 17
touched, modified, cleaned up to get it ready 11:34:37
committee process.
11:32:05
18
for balloting.
11:34:40
Q. I'm trying to understand how one can
11:32:05 19
There's also an additional level in 11:34:41
ascertain what, if any, text in any code or 11:32:08
20
our new process of editorial revisions so
11:34:42
standard has been contributed by NFPA
11:32:17 21
that it's clear to the committee that this is 11:34:47
technical staff.
11:32:21
22
something that is not directly tied but it is 11:34:48
MR. REHN: Objection as to form, and 11:32:26 23
because of another technical change. So it's 11:34:52
the compound nature of the question.
11:32:29
24
just slightly different.
11:34:54
Q. Please tell me how one can ascertain that.
11:32:31 25
But I can say clearly, if you see a 11:34:56
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revision to the document or a change, for

2

example, to the 2008 NEC, that text has been

11:34:57

3

worked on by editorial production, technical

4

expertise of the staff liaisons on that

5

project. That's their job.

1

11:35:05

11:35:07
11:35:11

6

Q. But I'm not asking about what the technical

7

staff have worked on because they may have

8
9

NFPA's intellectual property, around working

3

through developing a standard that ultimately 11:37:43
is an NFPA document.

11:35:14
11:35:16
11:35:20

11:37:37
11:37:40

11:37:46

5

worked on language that may have come from

10

understanding in the process all goes around

2
4

11:35:00

MR. BRIDGES: Move to strike to the

6

extent he lacks competence and draws legal

7

conclusions.

11:37:49
11:37:50

11:37:55

8

Q. My question is what -- you've mentioned that

the 2005 NEC that has survived into the 2008, 11:35:22

9

comments and proposals may show proposed

2011, 2014. I'm asking how does one identify 11:35:29

10

11

any text contributed by a technical committee 11:35:34

11

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

12

staff liaison in any code or standard of NEC? 11:35:41

12

A. You mentioned comments and proposals, which

13
14

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:35:45

That's ambiguous. It's compound.

language, correct?

11:37:58
11:38:07

11:38:12
11:38:16
11:38:20

13

based upon your previous question, one method 11:38:24

15

to understand where the text came from would

16

be to review each and every proposal and

17

comments that is submitted into our standard

18

development system to see what language was

19

11:38:22

submitted by the person or persons or

15

A. Again, to further try to clarify this is if

16

the text was in a previous edition of the

17

document and moved forward, it would not

18

show an indication of being modified. But

19

wherever there is new text added, deleted

20

or modified, there's an indication in the

20

organizations submitting public comments or

21

margin or shading, in the case of NEC, that

11:36:11

21

proposals, which is part of our copyright and 11:38:42

22

shows that text has been modified, worked

11:36:15

22

transfer to the committee.

23

on, whatever.

24
25

11:35:52

again, is our old system, and in that case,

14

11:35:48
11:35:57
11:36:00
11:36:03
11:36:06
11:36:09

23

11:36:18

And those words can come from lots
of places. And the technical staff is

24

11:36:18

25

11:36:20

11:38:28

11:38:31
11:38:33
11:38:36

11:38:38
11:38:40

11:38:46

MR. BRIDGES: Move to strike the
self-serving legal statement.

11:38:50

11:38:51

Q. So that tells us what suggestions and text

11:38:55

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involved through the committee meeting as

1

came from non-NFPA staff members, correct?

2

well as the public, in the case of the ROP

11:36:27

2

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

3

proposals, comments or public input or

11:36:32

3

4

public comments, which is all developed

5

ultimately to be balloted by the technical

6
7

committee.

11:36:24

11:36:33

4

11:36:38

submit forms with their proposed changes

6

11:36:37

Q. So my question is, when all of these changes

apart from the proposed changes that come

7

through the technical committee process?

are highlighted, how do we know which changes 11:36:41

8

9

came from the technical committee staff

11:36:45

9

10

liaison or other NFPA staff as opposed to

11:36:49

10

from the technical committee members or the

12

public?

11:36:55

11:36:58

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:39:36

Ambiguous. May call for speculation.

11:39:38

A. NFPA staff are prohibited from submitting

11:39:43

forms, public proposals, comments in the old
system, public input, public comments into

MR. REHN: Same objections as to

11:36:59

13

14

the form. It's ambiguous. It's compound.

11:37:01

14

A. One way to determine that is you could review 11:37:07

16

each and every of our proposal and comment

17

forms where the material is submitted and

18

copyright is signed over to us as NFPA and

19

our committees act from that.

11:37:13

15
16

the new system.

11:39:48
11:39:53

11:39:54

Q. Why are they prohibited from doing so?

11:39:57

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:40:01

A. Because the reason NFPA staff are prohibited

11:40:06

11:37:24

11:40:10

18

process is to ensure that they are acting as

11:40:12

neutral facilitators as well as focusing on

11:40:16

capturing and working with the committee and

21

using their expertise to accomplish the goals 11:40:21

11:40:19

21

one of those, see what words were submitted,

22

what words were developed by the committee,

23

ultimately compare that to the final balloted 11:37:31

23

Q. So if you need to identify language that NFPA 11:40:28

24

text.

24

staff members on their own contributed to any 11:40:39

25

NFPA codes or standards, where would you

25

11:37:26

from participation at that level of our

20

11:37:19

17
19

11:37:17

11:37:22

So you could review each and every

11:39:23
11:39:28

11

13

11:39:15

11:39:19

12

11

20

11:39:10

Q. Let me ask you this: Do NFPA staff members

5

11:36:35

8

15

Mischaracterizes. Ambiguous.

11:39:01

11:39:08

11:37:28

11:37:34
But ultimately in the end, the

11:37:34

22

of the technical committee.

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go -- strike that.

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If you needed to identify the

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that the text of the technical committee is

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11:40:53

balloted?

3

language that NFPA employees contributed to

11:40:55

3

4

NFPA codes and standards, how would you

11:41:05

4

5

determine that language?

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11:41:07

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's vague and compound.

11:41:10

technical committee at the end of the day

11

such would be difficult, if not impossible,

12

because of ultimately the technical staff

13

provides that content to the committee which

14

then approves those words.

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21

11:41:47
11:41:51

11:42:02

11:42:13

25

technical staff of NFPA are experts in their

11:42:15

11:42:10

who are sitting on the committee, or it can

11:43:55
11:43:58

11:43:37
11:43:45

11:43:49
11:43:53

11:42:20

2

establish a requirement for X and the

3

technical staff is there saying, well, we can 11:42:24

4

word it this way and that way, does this meet 11:42:27

5

your intent, how about we do this, I can

6

research some information, get back to you at 11:42:30

7

the next meeting.

11:42:23

11:42:29

11:42:32

The technical staff provides a vital 11:42:33
11:42:35

10

accomplish their mission of developing those

11:42:38

11

words that become ultimately the final words

11:42:40

12

of the standard.

11:42:43

Q. Who makes the decision about the words in a

11:42:44

11:42:46

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:44:06

direction of the committee to land on the

20

final technical language that is balloted.

11:42:46

11:42:48

A. The final decision is -- and to summarize,

11:42:49

18

it's a two-part decision. A committee

19

ballots on it, the ballot's on the final

20

word, the committee approves it. At the

21

end of the day our standards council issues

11:43:00

22

that document, but the committee ballot

11:43:03

23

establishes the position of the type of

24

committee at that time.

11:42:54
11:42:55
11:42:58

11:43:03
11:43:07

Q. And how does the text evolve up to the point

23
25

field, and the committee may want to

role in helping the technical committee

Ultimately that evolution is the
staff liaison synthesizes all that with the

24

1

25

expertise of the technical committee members

22

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17

13

21

11:42:04

Ambiguous.

come from that. It can come from the

19

committee is trying to accomplish. The

16

or a public comment form. The language can

18

11:41:53

A. In some cases yes, to accomplish what the

15

through a proposal form or public input form

17

A. In many cases the technical staff in the room 11:41:59

standard?

10

come from technical staff providing that to

24

14

A. So in a few ways. One is it can be submitted 11:43:33

11:43:32

the committee as their work progresses along. 11:44:01

23

13

11:43:31

16

Q. Is proposing new text?

9

Q. I think so.

15

22

8

saying?

8

11:41:37

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

is drafting the text.

11:43:25

11:43:28

11:41:44

staff doesn't draft the standards, correct?
Mischaracterizes.

created and included? Is that what you're

14

11:41:33

content to the committee? The technical

19

11:43:22

12

11:41:35

17

Ambiguous. Compound.

A. The text can evolve and by evolve, you mean

11

11:41:25

Q. You said the technical staff provides the

11:43:20

9

11:41:21
11:41:30

16

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

7

11:41:15

11:41:19

approved. Into -- each individual word and

18

6

11:41:11

A. What we could determine is the language the

10

15

5

11:43:16

11:43:19

11:43:07
Page 67

11:44:08
11:44:13
11:44:15

Q. With the direction of the committee, meaning
with the approval of the committee members?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Mischaracterizes the testimony.

11:44:18
11:44:29

11:44:31
11:44:34

Q. What do you mean by with the direction of the 11:44:36
Page 68

1
committee?
11:44:38
2 A. So a committee could want to establish a
11:44:40
3
requirement again for X for something and
11:44:45
4
they may say, we want the requirement to read 11:44:48
5
12 and the staff liaison would have to put
11:44:51
6
text around that to get it to read in context 11:44:55
7
of the document. Or they may say we want to 11:44:57
8
have a draft chapter on something, technical 11:45:00
9
staff can you do research, pull together
11:45:03
10
drafting of documents to present to the
11:45:12
11
committee to consider.
11:45:14
12
In the end the committee will agree 11:45:16
13
through a meeting vote what text is going to 11:45:19
14
move forward towards ballot. Then the
11:45:21
15
staff's job is to turn that into a ballot and 11:45:24
16
make sure it fits to our manual style and
11:45:28
17
ballot with the technical committee on the
11:45:28
18
final language.
11:45:31
19 Q. What criteria do technical committees use
11:45:31
20
to determine what text moves forward to a
11:45:34
21
ballot?
11:45:37
22
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
11:45:38
23 A. It's their expertise. It's their
11:45:42
24
professional opinion in a balanced way
11:45:46
25
through a meeting vote of what they believe 11:45:48
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will move forward. There's motions we

11:45:50

1

cheaper, easier to accomplish things,

2

follow, Robert's Rules of Order, and when

11:45:53

2

accomplishes a higher level of safety. Those 11:48:07

3

there's a motion and it carries by a meeting

3

are a few examples.

4

vote, which is 50 percent plus one, that

5

proposed change is then approved to move

6

forward to ballot, to letter ballot, excuse

7
8
9

me.

11:45:55
11:45:57

4

11:46:00

11:48:04
11:48:10

Q. Please give me more examples of criteria that 11:48:12

11:46:08

technical committee members would use in

6

11:46:02

5

deciding what text to move forward to ballot. 11:48:18

11:48:16

7

Q. Your answer focused on the process. I'm

11:46:08

MR. REHN: Same objection.

8

A. Other the examples could include research,

11:48:20
11:48:23

asking what criteria the technical committee

11:46:10

9

10

members use to decide what text to move

11:46:15

10

be loss reports. For example, there's been a 11:48:37

11

forward to a ballot.

11

large fire somewhere, a large chemical hazard 11:48:41

12

or something. There's often an investigative 11:48:43

13

report that NTSB or CSB or local fire marshal 11:48:45

14

has done. And the committee would look at

15

that and say we may have a safety issue that

12

11:46:18

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:46:20

13

A. I would think the criteria would depend on

14

each individual member of the technical

15

committee and their expertise and what bar

16

they believe needs to be crossed or what

17

things they need to have answered

18

professionally to make a decision to modify

19

the standard.

20

11:46:24
11:46:26
11:46:28
11:46:31

16

11:46:32

17

11:46:34

data. Such things -- another example could

needs to be addressed.

Q. What criteria in your role as the person in

11:46:36

21

charge of standards development at NFPA --

11:48:54

22

strike that.

18

11:46:46

11:48:56

may -- that may motivate them, but I think
your answers are focusing less on what

11:48:59
11:49:06

20

11:46:42

11:48:50
11:48:52

Q. So you've mentioned information that they

19

11:46:36

11:48:30

criteria they apply to determining what text

21

would move forward.

22

11:49:09

11:49:11

I'd like for you to tell me the

11:49:12

23

different criteria that technical committee

24

of standards development at NFPA, what do you 11:46:49

24

members apply, to your knowledge, in deciding 11:49:17

25

understand the most typical criteria to be by 11:46:52

25

what text to move forward to a ballot.

23

In your role as the person in charge 11:46:46

11:49:14
11:49:20

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which technical committees determine what

2

text to move forward to a ballot?

3
4
5

11:46:59

11:47:02

1
2

MR. REHN: Same objection.

11:49:23

A. Again, I think it would be difficult, without 11:49:25

11:47:04

11:47:06

A. I don't think there's a single answer to

11:47:09

6

that, and that's why we rely on a consensus

7

ballot that requires two-thirds of our

11:47:11

11:47:15

3

speculating, I'm not sure what each person

4

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's vague.

Page 72

would use for criteria, and that's why my

11:49:31

5

answer previously focused on having a

11:49:34

6

balanced committee of different experts,

11:49:36

7

topical experts in that area, will each bring 11:49:39

8

technical committee to move anything forward. 11:47:16

8

a different set of personal criteria,

9

That's part of the open consensus process in

9

11:49:29

personal decisionmaking that will decide

10

11:47:20

that you need two-thirds of a balanced

11:47:22

11

committee to agree on a technical change to

12

move it forward.

10

11:47:29

Q. I'd like for you to tell me what some of
those personal criteria are that you were

13

aware of, based on your interactions with

14

technical committee members at NFPA.

Each party is going to have a

different motivation for how they want to

15

vote or how they want things to go forward or 11:47:32

15

16

not.

16

11:47:35

Q. Tell me and enumerate for me some of the

11:49:45

11

14

11:47:31

11:47:35

11:49:43

what's going to move forward.

12

11:47:26

11:47:28

13

17

11:49:39

11:49:47
11:49:49
11:49:52
11:49:55

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:50:00

A. I think many of those things I stated, like

11:50:01

17

data, research reports, information combined

11:50:03

18

criteria that you understand them to apply in 11:47:38

18

is one of the main reasons, information is

19

determining what text to move forward to a

19

one of the main things, data, facts are

20

ballot.

20

important criteria for our committee members. 11:50:14

11:47:42

11:47:44

21

MR. REHN: Same objection.

11:47:44

22

A. Some criteria could include what's the loss

23

data associated with this issue that we're

24

facing, fire loss data, injuries, deaths and

25

such. Some can include economic gain. It's

21

I think the other thing that's very

11:50:09
11:50:11

11:50:17

22

important to our committee members and to our 11:50:18

11:47:54

23

process is their extensive experience in the

11:47:57

24

field and seeing results of different

11:47:49

25
11:48:00
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approaches.

11:50:20

11:50:24
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Q. Let me rephrase it differently because I'm

11:50:27

1

we call them enforcers, to attend our

11:50:29

2

committee meetings.

11:53:46

2

not sure you're responding to my question

3

about criteria. What are the different

4

reasons, not what background information are

4

time in participation in the technical

5

they acting on, but what are the different

11:50:38

5

committee work?

6

goals that, to your knowledge, technical

11:50:40

6

7

committee members have in deciding whether to 11:50:45

7

for public sector officials who we classify

8

progress certain text to a ballot?

8

as enforcers, we have an enforcer fund which

9

we pay 80 percent of their associated travel

11:54:15

to a committee meeting, including hotel,

11:54:15

9
10

11:50:31

3

11:50:34

11:50:49

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

11:50:54

A. I think the biggest overarching goal is the

11:50:55

11

accomplishment of the NFPA mission. They

12

want to ultimately reduce life loss, injury,

13

property loss, economic loss due to fire and

14

other related hazards.

10

11:51:03

11:51:04

12

11:51:09

Q. How do decisions regarding progressing

16

certain text to a ballot touch upon that

17

mission?

Q. Do any -- does NFPA pay any persons for their 11:53:50
11:53:57
11:54:02

A. NFPA does not pay for time, but what we do

airfare, et cetera.

11:51:13

understand it, to participate in technical
committees?

15
16

11:51:24

11:54:12

11:54:20

14

11:51:17

11:54:06

11:54:09

Q. What is the motivation of persons, as you

13

11:51:11

15

11

11:53:48

11:54:20
11:54:23

11:54:28

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

11:54:29

A. I think there's lots of motivations. I think 11:54:32

17

overwhelmingly the number one motivation, in

18

my opinion and my years of service, is the

19

overarching mission of NFPA. Our mission of

11:51:33

20

safety is very attractive to many people.

18

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

19

A. Fundamentally does it progress towards

11:51:26

20

accomplishing that mission? Does the

21

institution of a new technology or a new

11:51:37

21

Many of our volunteers not only

22

requirement or modifying an existing

11:51:39

22

volunteer to participate in the NFPA process

23

requirement lead to better life safety,

23

but also volunteer their time to do so, and

24

better fire protection, better electrical

24

that's a strong indication to me that that's

25

safety, better protection of our nation's

25

the primary motivation.

11:51:30

11:51:42
11:51:46
11:51:48

11:54:35

11:54:37
11:54:40

11:54:44
11:54:47
11:54:49
11:54:51
11:54:54

11:54:56

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first responders? Does it accomplish the

2

mission? So that's the best way.

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11:51:51

2

11:51:53

Q. Are you aware of any person whose primary

11:55:05
11:55:10

3

reward for participation in the technical

4

question that technical committees address in 11:52:05

4

committee process?

5

deciding whether to progress certain text to

5

6

a ballot is whether the proposed change will

7

improve outcomes?

3

8
9
10

Q. Does it -- would you say that a general

11:51:59
11:52:18

11:55:13

A. I'm not aware of an individual, per se, but I 11:55:21

A. I would speculate that each decision would be 11:52:41

in their fields, and there's professional

recognition and acknowledgment for being on

9

11:52:37

would speculate that these people are experts 11:55:26

8

MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 11:52:34

6
7

11:52:22

11:52:29

question.

11:55:02

motivation is to receive some financial

an NFPA technical committee.

11:55:28
11:55:32

11:55:36

10

MR. BRIDGES: Why don't we take a

11:55:46
11:55:47

11

in guidance or in alignment with improving

11:52:47

11

break. We've been going for a while. What

12

safety. And those would be the outcomes,

11:52:53

12

time is it?

13

improving safety, reducing loss, preventing

11:52:53

13

VIDEOGRAPHER: 11:55.

14

incidents from happening again that resulted

11:52:57

14

MR. BRIDGES: We'll keep going.

15

in life loss injuries, property loss,

16

et cetera.

15

11:52:59

16

11:53:04

17

Q. Who pays for members of the technical

18

committees to participate in their work?

19

A. Again, a lot of my answers are it depends.

11:53:11

17
18

11:53:15
11:53:23

19
20

11:53:26

11:55:51
11:55:51

VIDEOGRAPHER: There's another
15 minutes on the tape.

MR. BRIDGES: We'll keep going
another 15 minutes.

11:55:56

11:55:58

Q. How can the public gain access without

11:56:15

payment to NFPA's codes and standards?

11:56:33

In this case, you have everything from

21

companies to people's own time, people taking 11:53:30

21

22

vacation time and in some cases, NFPA

22

our codes and standards to ensure that

23

reimburses participation through our enforcer 11:53:37

23

anyone, public or private sector or citizen

24

fund to get public safety officials like fire 11:53:41

24

consumer, has the ability to read and

25

marshals, electrical inspectors, and other,

25

understand the requirements of any of our

11:53:44

11:55:54

11:55:55

20

11:53:34

11:55:52

A. NFPA provides free read-only access to all of 11:56:37

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11:56:42
11:56:46
11:56:49
11:56:52
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standards, while, at the same time, balancing 11:56:53

1

A. NFPA 70 is our National Electrical Code.

12:00:42

2

our need to protect our intellectual

2

Q. That's the largest code that NFPA publishes,

12:00:45

3

property, revenue and ultimately, the

4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

11:56:55
11:56:58

advancement of our mission.

11:57:00

deposition yesterday?

11:57:09

A. Just briefly to say, how did it go and that
was it.

7

11:57:20

12:00:51

12:00:54

A. I believe it is the largest page count
document, yeah.

12:00:55
12:01:04

A. No.

11:57:31

A. No.

18

conditions, restrictions, limitations,

12:01:18

standards that NFPA claims to own for

15

12:01:04

exclusions and exceptions of access to the

14
11:57:27

financial terms, other requirements,

12

11:57:27

terms, including, but not limited to

13

Q. Was there any discussion about any of the

17

corporate representative on the topic of the

11
11:57:23

11:57:25

15

Q. You have been designated by NFPA as its

10

11:57:23

Q. Did you discuss any of the topics of the

questions at that deposition?

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Ambiguous.

9

11:57:18

deposition?

12:00:51

8

A. That it went fine, it went late. That's all
I know.

5
6

11:57:13

11:57:17

Q. What did you hear about it?

correct?

4

Q. Have you talked to anybody about Mr. Mullen's 11:57:04

14
16

3

12:01:21

reading, study, research, commentary,

12:01:25
12:01:27
12:01:29
12:01:34
12:01:41

20

A. With counsel.

21

Q. Anybody else?

22

A. No.

23

Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 1223.

24

A. (Witness examines document)

11:58:45

25

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1223?

11:59:00

11:58:06
11:58:11
11:58:14

shifting, space shifting, data mining and
comparison to other versions, standards and

12:01:55

documents by the public. Are you aware of

12:01:58

21

11:58:04

18
20

deposition?

annotation, reproduction, personal use, place 12:01:48

19

11:57:33

19

evaluation, criticism, bookmarking, other

17

Q. With whom did you discuss Mr. Mullen's

16

11:57:33

that?

12:01:52

12:02:03

22

A. Yes.

23

Q. And in that role, are you aware that these

24

are terms that the public must accept in

25

11:58:14

12:01:43

12:02:03

order to have free read-only online access

12:02:06
12:02:12
12:02:15

Page 78

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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A. The only thing I recognize is it's from our 11:59:02
1
website.
11:59:08
2
Q. Have you seen this language before that's in 11:59:11 3
the smaller window in the middle of both
11:59:17 4
pages of Exhibit 1223?
11:59:23
5
A. I can't say specifically. It looks like
11:59:31
6
something associated with our publications, 11:59:33 7
but I can't specifically say I've seen this 11:59:36
8
actual wording.
11:59:38
9
Q. Do you recognize that these are terms that
11:59:40 10
the public must accept in order to gain the 11:59:46 11
read-only access for free to NFPA's codes and 11:59:58 12
standards?
12:00:02
13
MR. REHN: Object to form.
12:00:03
14
A. I can see their terms. I'm not sure what
12:00:06
15
they're terms for. But I can see "accept
12:00:10
16
terms" is the first statement on the top of 12:00:13
17
the first page and second page.
12:00:15
18
Q. I think the language there says, "accept
12:00:18 19
terms for: 2014 edition of NFPA 70." Can
12:00:21 20
you make that out?
12:00:30
21
A. Yeah, accept terms for 2014 edition. I can't 12:00:31 22
tell if it's NFPA 70 or 79. Unfortunately, 12:00:35
23
they're both standards.
12:00:38
24
Q. What is an NFPA 70?
12:00:39
25

Page 80
to NFPA 70?

12:02:20

A. It's my understanding and my knowledge that
you access our standards in various formats,

12:02:24

12:02:28

whether it's our codes online or free access, 12:02:30
and that the user must agree to some terms
and conditions.

12:02:33

12:02:36

Q. Are you referring to terms and conditions of
the website?

12:02:37

12:02:38

A. From my perspective, there are terms and
conditions for a lot of our platforms and

12:02:41
12:02:47

different things. And it's my understanding

12:02:49

that with free access, with codes online,

12:02:51

that the user must agree to terms and

12:02:55

conditions.

12:02:57

Q. I'm representing that these are terms and

12:02:59

conditions that appeared very recently with

12:03:03

respect to the public read-only access of the 12:03:10
2014 edition of NFPA 70.

12:03:13

Do the terms and conditions that you 12:03:17
see on both pages of 1223 accord with your
understanding of what the terms and
conditions are for the public free read-only
access to NFPA 70?

12:03:23

12:03:29

A. I can't speak to the specific terms

12:03:36

themselves, the words within the terms. It

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12:03:18
12:03:21

12:03:39
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is -- in my area of expertise, I understand

12:03:42

1

MR. REHN: Same objection.

2

that users must agree to a set of terms and

12:03:44

2

MR. BRIDGES: I'll withdraw the

3

conditions.

4
5

12:03:46

3

Q. What are the terms and conditions that users
must agree to?

12:03:46

12:03:49

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

7

and we did produce the terms and conditions.

8

It's not clear when this document was

9
11
12
13

12:03:53

12:03:56

users enter into a binding contract with

7

NFPA?

8
9

12:04:02

MR. REHN: The terms speak for
themselves.

Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether,
by accepting those terms and conditions,

12:03:57

10

A. I'm not sure what those specific terms are.

12:04:05

11

12:04:06

12

Q. Tell me all the terms and conditions that you 12:04:06

12:06:02
12:06:03

6

12:03:51

produced, but the witness may answer.

question. It was badly formed.

5

6

10

4

12:06:01

12:06:04

12:06:06
12:06:09

12:06:12

MR. REHN: Same objection. Calls
for a legal opinion. Terms speak for
themselves.

12:06:13
12:06:14

12:06:16

A. I have no knowledge of that, on how to
interpret that.

12:06:19

12:06:22

13

Q. Do you know that in order to gain access for

14

are aware of that the public must accept in

12:04:11

14

free to the read-only codes and standards on

15

order to have the free access to read-only

12:04:15

15

NFPA's website, a member of the public must

16

codes and standards of NFPA on NFPA's

16

agree to waive objection to venue in a court

17

website.

17

of competent jurisdiction in the State of

18

Massachusetts for disputes arising out of the 12:07:02

19

terms and conditions?

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19
20

12:04:20

12:04:26

MR. REHN: Objection to form. We

12:04:26

produced the terms and conditions.

12:04:27

MR. BRIDGES: He's the 30(b)(6)

12:06:58

12:07:06

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MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

12:04:31

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The terms speak for themselves. If you want

22

to direct him to language in the terms, and

witness on this very topic, and I'm entitled

22

to get his testimony and to get him to

23

authenticate a document from NFPA's website.

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I'm absolutely entitled to that.

12:04:33
12:04:36

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24

12:04:39

MR. REHN: The objection stands.

12:06:35
12:06:44

12:04:30

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25

12:06:23
12:06:32

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12:04:41

ask if he's aware of that language.

12:07:08
12:07:10
12:07:12

12:07:14

Q. Sure. Let me ask you to look at the last two 12:07:16
paragraphs on the second page of

12:07:18

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2

The witness may answer.

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12:04:42

A. Specifically, what I understand and my

Page 84

12:04:44

Q. Have you read those two paragraphs?

knowledge of the terms and conditions is that 12:04:46

3

4

users are required to agree to a set of terms 12:04:48

4

5

and conditions as shown on our website when

5

6

they register to view the free codes.

7
8
9
10

6

12:04:55

7

The extent to which -- the terms and 12:04:58
words, I have no specific knowledge or
experience in the actual terms.

8

12:05:01

9

12:05:05

Q. Are you aware that in order to get free

10

12:05:09

12:07:21

A. I'm there.

3

12:04:52

Exhibit 1223.

2

12:07:26
12:07:28

MR. REHN: Take your time and go
ahead and read them.

12:07:30

12:07:32

A. (Witness examines document)

12:07:32

VIDEOGRAPHER: There are five

12:07:38

minutes remaining on the videotape.
A. I've read them.

12:07:39
12:08:05

Q. Before today, were you aware that those were

11

access to the read-only codes and standards

12:05:14

11

terms and conditions that a consumer or --

12

on NFPA's website, that a user must enter

12:05:17

12

strike that.

13

into a contract, a binding contract with

14

NFPA?

15
16

Before today, were you aware that

14

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Calls for a legal opinion, and the terms

12:08:10

12:08:12

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12:05:25

12:05:29

those two paragraphs are among the terms and

12:08:14

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conditions that a member of the public must

16

12:05:30
12:05:31

agree to in order to have free access to

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A. To restate, what I am aware of is that users

12:05:37

18

standards?

19

must agree to a set of terms and conditions.

12:05:41

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21

speak for themselves.

12:05:34

That is the extent of my knowledge.

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12:05:45

Q. Do you understand whether -- do you have any

12:05:47

12:08:19

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Lacks foundation.

12:08:28

12:08:30

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A. Before today, I had not read these.

Q. Before today, had you known that these were

12:08:32

understanding one way or the other as to

12:05:50

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whether users must enter into a binding

12:05:53

23

among the terms and conditions that the

24

contract in accepting those terms and

24

public must accept in order to have free

25

conditions?

25

access to the read-only versions of NFPA's

12:06:01

12:08:25

12:08:27

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12:05:58
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12:08:22

read-only versions of NFPA's codes and

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12:08:34

12:08:37
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codes and standards?

12:08:45

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

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A. Before today, as previously stated, my

two paragraphs were among the terms and

3

12:08:47

Q. Have you known that the substance of these

2

12:08:46

conditions before today?

4

understanding wholly was that a user had to

12:08:50

4

5

agree to some terms and conditions in order

12:08:54

5

6

to gain free read-only access to our codes

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and standards.

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12:10:44

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

12:10:46

A. As I previously stated and I stand by my

12:10:47

6

Q. You're not answering my question. It's a yes 12:08:59

9

or no question. Before today, were you aware 12:09:01

testimony that I was not aware of any of the

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12:08:59

8

terms and conditions, only that a user had to 12:10:54

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agree to terms and conditions in order to

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gain free access to our codes and standards.

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that the last two paragraphs that you've just 12:09:05

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read were among those terms and conditions?

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12

12:10:40
12:10:42

12:09:07

MR. REHN: Object to the form. And

12:09:10

12

12:10:52
12:10:57
12:10:59

MR. BRIDGES: I think it's time for
a break.

12:11:03

12:11:04

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:11.

12:11:04

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the witness doesn't have to answer the way

12:09:10

13

This is the end of Tape No. 1, and we are now 12:11:07

14

that you want him to answer. This question

12:09:12

14

off the record.

15

has been asked and answered.

16
17

12:09:14

Q. It's a yes or no.

MR. REHN: Again, the witness can

12:09:17

answer the question in the most accurate way

19

they can.

MR. BRIDGES: Don't coach the

12:09:18

12:09:22

were among the terms and conditions that the
public had to accept in order to have free

25

access to the read-only versions of NFPA's

2

codes and standards?

are now back on the record.
MR. BRIDGES:

12:21:07
12:21:08

Q. Mr. Dubay, in order to prepare for today's

12:21:09

deposition, what did you do to become

12:21:16

22

familiar with the terms and conditions for

12:21:18

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public access to the read-only versions of

24

12:09:27

12:09:28

NFPA's codes and standards?

25
12:09:30
Page 86

12:21:24
12:21:29

MR. REHN: I instruct the witness to 12:21:32
Page 88

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12:09:34

exclude from his answer anything that would

12:21:33

2

12:09:34

MR. REHN: Same objection as to

12:21:05

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Q. Yes or no. Did you know these two paragraphs 12:09:25

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18

12:21:00

This is the beginning of Tape No. 2, and we

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12:09:23

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1

12:11:12

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12:09:22

witness. That's, believe me, coaching.

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VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:20.

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18

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(Break taken)

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12:09:16

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12:11:09

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reveal the substance of communications with

12:21:35

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form. And you may answer the question in the 12:09:36

3

4

most accurate way that you can.

4

A. I didn't do anything to prepare.

5

Q. What documents did you review in connection

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6
7
8
9
10

12:09:39

MR. BRIDGES: The most accurate way
is yes or no.

12:09:41

strike that. Same objection as before.

12:09:43

those words, those last two paragraphs was
just now.

with preparing to testify at today's
deposition?

9
10

A. As I previously stated, the first time I read 12:09:49

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12:21:40

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8

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12:21:37

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12:09:42

MR. REHN: Objection and move to
Q. Please proceed.

legal counsel.

12:09:52

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12:21:46
12:21:49

MR. REHN: If you remember any

12:21:53

specific documents, you may answer.

12:21:54

MR. BRIDGES: That's coaching, that
statement, if ever I've heard one.

12:21:56

12:21:58

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12:09:54

12:21:44

A. None.

12:22:01

Q. Is it true that before the public can access

12:09:55

13

14

paragraphs of the text on Exhibit 1223 before 12:10:01

14

NFPA's codes and standards in their read-only 12:22:19

15

you read them?

15

versions for free on NFPA's website, a member 12:22:24

16

of the public must register and provide

information and an e-mail address to NFPA?

13

16

Q. Were you aware of the terms in the last two
12:10:12

MR. REHN: Object as to form.

12:10:14

17

A. No, I was only aware of terms and conditions. 12:10:18

17

18

Q. Of the existence of terms and conditions?

18

19

A. Yes.

20

Q. You were not aware of these two paragraphs as 12:10:24

21

12:10:21

19

12:10:23

part of those terms and conditions?

12:22:02

12:22:27
12:22:34

A. It's my understanding that in order to gain

12:22:42

read-only access, that you do need to

12:22:45

20

register and agree to terms and conditions.

12:10:26

21

Q. And registering includes providing an e-mail

12:10:28

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MR. REHN: Object as to form.

23

A. Again, assuming that these are accurate from

12:10:30

23

24

our website, I have not read these paragraphs 12:10:35

24

25

until just now when you asked me to.

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12:10:38

address?

12:22:55

12:22:59

Q. And one must register before one can even

Page 87

12:22:50

12:22:53

A. I believe that's the case. I'm sure it has
to be e-mail.

12:22:48

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review the terms and conditions in order to

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decide whether to accept or to decline the

12:23:02

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terms and conditions? Are you aware of that? 12:23:07

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A. No, I'm not.

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6

terms and conditions, one is unable to gain

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free access to the read-only versions of

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NFPA's codes and standards?

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11
12

2

12:23:18

12:23:25

Q. You may answer.

12:26:13

A. My understanding is that you must register

5

and agree to some terms and conditions to
gain access to the free read-only of all of
our codes and standards.

12:26:17
12:26:21

12:26:23

12:26:27

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A. My understanding is that you have to agree to 12:23:30
12:23:32

Q. And that's all you know about it?

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A. That's the extent of my knowledge of what's

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12:23:34

Q. Do you understand that NFPA adds the e-mail

3

7

12:23:12

12:23:23

granted free read-only access.

12:26:08

12:26:10

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12:23:11

the terms and conditions before you're

MR. REHN: I'll object as to the
form of this question.

4

Q. Are you aware that if someone declines the

10

1

12:23:04

11
12:23:39

12:26:28

involved in the process, yes.

12:26:30

12:26:32

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that in order

12:26:33

12

to gain free access to the read-only versions 12:26:51

13

addresses that people furnish in the

12:23:46

13

of NFPA's codes and standards, a member of

12:26:58

14

registration process to e-mail lists that it

12:23:48

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the public must enter into an acknowledgment

12:27:02

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uses for marketing purposes?

15

that NFPA owns copyright on all the codes and 12:27:08

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standards?

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17

12:23:55

MR. REHN: Object as to form.
Outside the scope.

12:23:56

12:23:58

18

A. I don't have first-hand knowledge of what

19

happens with the registrants to our free

20
21

access.

17
12:24:01

12:27:13

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

12:27:14

12:24:08

Lacks foundation. To the extent this is a

question about the terms of access, the terms 12:27:18

20

12:24:06

Q. What information does NFPA collect about

18
19

12:24:04

speak for themselves, and this may call for a 12:27:20

21

legal opinion.

12:27:15

12:27:20

22

persons who visit NFPA's website to gain free 12:24:12

22

A. My understanding of the process is that you

23

access to the read-only versions of NFPA's

23

register and agree to terms and conditions.

24

codes and standards?

24

That is the extent of my knowledge.

25

12:24:17

12:24:20

12:27:26
12:27:30

12:27:32

25

1

and conditions on Exhibit 1223 are the terms

and conditions that a user has to agree to in 12:27:45

3

order to have free access to the read-only

4

12:24:22

Q. And you're unable to say whether the terms

2

MR. REHN: Same objections as to

12:27:38
Page 92

versions of NFPA's codes and standards?

Page 90
1

form and to the scope of the designated

2

topics.

3
4

12:24:23

12:24:25

A. Can you restate the question. I'm sorry.

12:24:29

MR. BRIDGES: I'll ask the court

12:24:35

12:27:49
12:27:51

5

reporter to re-read it.

12:24:36

5

6

(Question read)

12:24:37

6

Q. Is that correct?

7

MR. REHN: And the same objection as 12:24:55

7

A. What I can say is this document that you've

8

to form and the scope of the designated

9

topics. But if the witness has personal

11

A. I don't have personal knowledge of what we

12

request, and it resides outside of my area.

12:27:56
12:27:57

12:25:02

handed me appears to be from our website and

9

12:24:58

knowledge of this question, he may answer.

12:27:54

8

12:24:56

10

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

12:27:41

it appears to be terms and conditions. I

12:28:01

12:28:03

10

can't comment whether these are the actual

12:28:06
12:28:08

11

current terms and conditions or whether they

12:25:06

12

were previous terms and conditions because as 12:28:10

12:25:10

12:25:04

13

I previously stated, I just read the last two 12:28:12

14

requirements apply to the public in order for 12:25:22

14

paragraphs just now or just a few moments

15

the public to gain free access to the

15

ago.

16

read-only versions of NFPA's codes and

17

standards other than the fact that they must

12:25:34

17

18

agree to some terms and conditions; is that

12:25:43

18

19

correct?

13

20
21
22

Q. You're unfamiliar with what other

12:25:29

MR. REHN: Was that -- was that the

12:25:48

20

12:25:49

21
22

12:25:58

23

23

MR. REHN: Hold on one second.

24

MR. BRIDGES: If you want to object, 12:26:03

25

then object.

16

19

12:25:48

prior question? Is that the same question?
Q. You may answer.

12:25:32

12:26:00

24
25

12:26:05

12:28:15

12:28:18
(Exhibit 1228 marked for

identification.)

12:28:45
12:28:57

Q. I hand you Exhibit 1228. Please tell me if
you recognize this document and if so, tell
me what it is.

12:28:57
12:29:04

12:29:07

A. It looks like a page from our website and the 12:29:10
title of it is "Terms of Use."

12:29:20

Q. Are these, in fact, the terms of use of
NFPA's website?

12:29:23

12:29:26

A. Again, I can't comment on whether these are

Page 91

12:29:36
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the actual terms of use on our website as I 12:29:38
don't have any involvement in determining
12:29:42
these or viewing them or establishing the
12:29:44
content of them.
12:29:46
(Exhibit 1229 marked for
12:30:04
identification.)
12:30:04
Q. I hand you Exhibit 1229. Please tell me if 12:30:07
you recognize it, and if so, tell me what it 12:30:13
is.
12:30:15
A. Again, it appears to be a page from our
12:30:19
website around our disclaimers, and I
12:30:23
recognize some of these statements around
12:30:26
our standards process.
12:30:29
Without getting into is it
12:30:33
accurately worded throughout, they look like 12:30:34
some of our standard statements that we use 12:30:37
within our standards process.
12:30:41
Q. Are you in a position to say whether the
12:30:47
terms of use in Exhibit 1228 and the
12:30:49
disclaimers in Exhibit 1229 apply to the
12:30:52
public's access to the read-only versions
12:31:03
of NFPA's codes and standards?
12:31:07
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
12:31:10
Calls for a legal opinion.
12:31:12
A. I don't believe I'm in the position to do
12:31:14

1
2

if so, identify it.

3
4

that. In my normal course of work, I would

2

rely on our general counsel to provide

3

guidance on how these apply.

12:31:16
12:31:19

12:31:22

4

Q. Do you have any reason to believe that

5

Exhibits 1223, 1228 and 1229 do not

6

accurately depict terms of use and

12:31:43

7

disclaimers on NFPA's website?

12:31:52

8
9

12:31:27
12:31:34

A. With the assumption that you have accurately

10

to be from our website. They appear to be,

11

based upon logo, formatting and such, appear

12

to be part of our content.

13

12:32:04

replicated them from our website, they appear 12:32:09
12:32:11
12:32:13

12:32:16

Q. So does that mean you don't have any reason

12:32:18

14

to believe that they do not accurately depict 12:32:22

15

the terms of use and disclaimers on NFPA's

16

website?

12:32:25

12:32:29

17

A. Personally, I don't, but I would rely on

18

legal counsel to confirm those things

12:32:34

19

because, again, I don't have first-hand

12:32:38

20

knowledge of these. These are not within my

21

area of responsibility.

22
23
24
25

(Exhibit 1230 marked for
identification.)

12:32:31

12:32:41

12:32:43
12:33:42
12:33:54

Q. Mr. Dubay, I've handed you Exhibit 1230. Can 12:34:07
you please tell me whether you recognize and

12:34:13
Page 95

12:34:19

MR. REHN: Take your time. Make

12:34:25

sure you review the document in its entirety. 12:34:28

5

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1230

6

appears to be a view, screen captured from

7

our standards development site relating to

8

the public comment stage associated with NFPA 12:34:50

9
10
11
12

70E.

12:34:47

12:34:54

pages?

12:35:02

12:35:06

MR. REHN: There is some handwritten 12:35:07

13

annotation on one page. It appears to be

14

part of the copy.

15
16
17
18

12:34:32
12:34:43

Q. Did you participate in the design of these

12:35:09

12:35:14

MR. BRIDGES: I'm sorry. There is
that handwritten -- right.

12:35:17

12:35:21

Q. Please disregard the handwriting on --

12:35:29

MR. REHN: It's your understanding

12:35:34

19

that handwritten annotation does not appear

20

on the NFPA's website?

21

12:35:36

12:35:38

A. No, the handwritten annotations can't appear

12:35:40

22

on our website. So I would assume -- my

12:35:43

23

assumption is that that was someone's notes

12:35:46

24

before photocopy.

25

12:35:48

Q. That's right. I apologize for that, but

Page 94
1

12:34:17

A. Just give me one moment here.

12:35:49
Page 96

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apart from that handwriting, you understand 12:35:52
this to be a form that's used for public
12:35:54
comment?
12:35:59
A. Yes, in part it's the view of the website
12:35:59
and then it looks like it's the steps through 12:36:07
submitting a public comment, so yes.
12:36:07
Q. Let me ask you to turn to the page that has a 12:36:07
stamping at the bottom that ends with 38502. 12:36:12
A. I'm there.
12:36:22
Q. It says in the middle, "Note, due to
12:36:29
copyright considerations, NFPA is unable to 12:36:32
accept these submissions electronically at 12:36:35
this time." What does that mean?
12:36:38
A. At this point in the process you are stating 12:36:45
what the reason is for your public comment, 12:36:52
why you're submitting it, and at times
12:36:55
submitters desire to attach reports,
12:36:57
publications and such.
12:37:01
And we have a very strict policy on 12:37:04
copyright and protection of intellectual
12:37:07
property, not only of ours, but of others and 12:37:09
at times, submitters from the public will
12:37:12
want to submit a document as supporting, we 12:37:14
call it supporting material, and we require 12:37:18
them to send us a hard copy so that we can -- 12:37:21
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via mail so that we can verify that they

2

truly retain the copyright and can give us

3

permission to post that or that we can reach

4

out specifically to the owner of said

5

copyright to determine whether a copyright

6

would be -- a reproduction, posting,

7

et cetera, would be allowed, permitted by

8

them.

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12:37:24

12:37:37

12:37:54

MR. REHN: Again, I'll object to
the extent it calls for legal opinion or it

18

calls for the substance of any privileged

19

communications. But you can answer to the

20

extent you know.

intellectual property, that legal counsel

24

discusses the term "fair use" with me and

25

discusses it in their decisionmaking. I'm

for purposes of production which I suspect is 12:40:28
the case.

13

12:40:30

MR. REHN: We can stipulate to that. 12:40:31

12:38:00

This was a way to make sure we got all the
screen shots.

16

12:38:02

17

12:38:04

12:40:34

12:40:35

Q. So this, to your understanding, Mr. Dubay,
this document contains the fields and

12:40:36

12:40:40

18

12:38:08

headings and text that the public normally

19

encounters when the public submits comments

20

12:38:05

in the course of NFPA's standards

21

12:38:11

22

12:38:13

12:40:49
12:40:53

12:40:58

development; is that correct?

12:41:00

A. Correct. To the best of my knowledge, it

12:41:02

23

steps of submitting a comment from the

25

12:38:20

appears that it's captured all of the various 12:41:05

24

12:38:17

origination of selecting the text through the 12:41:11
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MR. BRIDGES: You may want to

stipulate that this was just done as a mockup 12:40:24

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12:37:57

know that when we request to utilize our

12:40:22

12

A. It's my general understanding in dealing with 12:37:52

A. I don't know the specifics of it. I just

may call for speculation.

12:40:14
12:40:18

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12:37:47
12:37:48

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MR. REHN: Object to the form. It
may call for attorney-client privilege. It

9

12:40:08

12:40:14

10

MR. REHN: Object to the form to

legal counsel, yes, we do.

forms?

8

12:37:46

Q. What is NFPA's fair use policy?

actually make submissions and execute these

5

12:40:05

7

Q. Does NFPA have a policy regarding fair use in 12:37:42

the extent it calls for a legal opinion.

production in litigation, or does she

6

12:37:39

12:37:41

copyright?

12:40:01

4

12:37:34

12:39:56

prints of these documents for purposes of

3

12:37:31

that just for convenience in making screen

2

12:37:29

16

21

1

12:37:27

not aware of a specific policy, per se, but 12:38:22
1
it's often brought up.
12:38:26
2
Q. Do you have any understanding about the
12:38:28 3
concept of fair use and copyright law?
12:38:34
4
MR. REHN: Objection. Calls for
12:38:36
5
legal opinion.
12:38:38
6
A. My only understanding of that is that from a 12:38:41 7
general concept of that small uses of our
12:38:46
8
intellectual property in certain ways are
12:38:52
9
permitted through the term called "fair use." 12:38:53 10
My professional background, I don't have the 12:38:56 11
specifics of that. That's my understanding. 12:38:58 12
Q. So looking at Exhibit 1230 again, this
12:39:02 13
appears to be a page directed at somebody by 12:39:06 14
the name of Debra Baio, is that correct?
12:39:14
15
MR. FEE: Which page?
12:39:21
16
Q. The first page, I believe it's B A I O, but 12:39:22
17
maybe it's B A I O I. Is that a name you
12:39:30
18
recognize?
12:39:34
19
A. Yes, she works in our codes and standards
12:39:35 20
division responsible for our system, and she 12:39:37 21
develops training content and such around our 12:39:41 22
platform.
12:39:43
23
Q. So this document has her name in several
12:39:45 24
places as though she's the submitter. Is
12:39:51
25

12:41:08

copyright assignment at the end, yes, it
appears that way.

12:41:14

12:41:17

Q. This mockup appears to be specific to one
standard and one section of a standard,

12:41:18
12:41:25

namely NFPA 70E and informative NXK; is that
correct?

12:41:27

12:41:42

A. What it contains is the public comment view

12:41:43

of NFPA 70 and then -- 70E, excuse me, and
the selection process through that.

12:41:45

12:41:48

Q. The selection process through that, meaning

12:41:51

what a public commenter would follow to reach 12:41:54
a certain point to comment on a certain

12:41:58

aspect of the standard; is that correct?

12:42:00

A. This is an example of a public, proposed

12:42:12

public comment or training material around

12:42:16

NFPA 70 on the second draft of, excuse me, on 12:42:20
the first draft of NFPA 70.

12:42:24

Q. And it's specifically focusing in on one part 12:42:27
of that draft, namely informative NXK,
general categories of electrical hazards; is
that correct?

12:42:29
12:42:33

12:42:39

A. It appears that the person Debbie, or whoever 12:42:39
put this together, did select NXK. It's just 12:42:43
kind of blurry, but I believe it looks like
she selected NXK as the example.

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Q. And there is on the third page of the

12:42:55

1

Q. And this is a form that's got some

12:46:51

2

exhibit, which ends in No. 38500, near the

12:42:58

2

information that's put in here I assume for

3

top of the field inside the browser window,

12:43:07

3

dummy purposes under applicant's personal

4

it says Public Comment No. 15-SF, looks like

5

DEM, D E M,-PC-2015; is that correct?

6
7

12:43:10
12:43:17

A. I believe it says 15-5F, I think, DEM PC 215
or SF.

12:43:25

12:43:32

4
5
6

info, correct?

Q. How are those numbers assigned?

12:43:34

9

A. Those numbers are assigned based upon when

12:43:40
12:43:42

8
9

12:47:00

information again.

12:47:07

12:47:10

MR. REHN: I can stipulate to that.
This is to enable us to produce this
document.

12:47:11
12:47:15

12:47:17

10

you submit a comment on the document. I

11

believe this is a demonstration file, so

12

you're seeing the DEM in there versus 15-70E

13

or 15 dash the document. They're all related 12:43:56

13

A. Yes, I see the pull-down menu.

14

in order, numerical order based upon the

14

Q. Do those member categories correspond to

15

document.

15

the -- I forgot what you referred to them,

16

interest groups or interest -- to the

17

interest groups you referred to earlier?

12:43:47

10

12:46:56

A. It appears that way, that it's just sample

7

8

12:46:54

11

12:43:49

12:43:59

12:44:04

12:47:18

pull-down menu for principal member category. 12:47:26
Do you see that?

12:47:32
12:47:35
12:47:37
12:47:42

16

Q. And then on pages that end in 38506 and

17

38507, there are headings for copyright

18

assignment and signature (required) and then

19

alternative copyright assignment and

12:44:38

19

principal member or an alternate member.

20

signature (required). Do you see those?

12:44:41

20

Q. Okay. That referred to membership on the

21

A. Yes, I see them.

22

Q. It appears that the alternative copyright

12:44:05

12

Q. Okay. And there's a, what appears to be a

12:44:24
12:44:32

12:44:48

21

12:44:49

23

assignment signature shown on the second of

24

those pages is what one reaches by clicking,

25

when you "click here" line on the first of

18

12:47:44
12:47:48

A. That relates to are you applying as a

12:47:51
12:47:53

22

12:44:56
12:44:58

A. Not the interest category.

23

12:48:00

12:48:04

Q. Is there any place on here for somebody to

24

indicate what interest category they fall

25

12:45:03

12:47:56

committee, not the type of member of NFPA?

into?

12:48:18
12:48:21

12:48:27

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those two pages in the middle of the field, 12:45:04
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is that correct?
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A. The alternate copyright statement comes up
12:45:13 3
when you -- if you are not the author of all 12:45:17
4
of the content that you're submitting and
12:45:22
5
then we ask you to click here, and I'm pretty 12:45:24 6
sure that the next page is the alternate. It 12:45:28
7
replaces the current copyright with the
12:45:31
8
alternate copyright statement.
12:45:35
9
Q. So it's your understanding that the "click
12:45:35 10
here" link on the page ending 38506 takes
12:45:35 11
somebody to the page 38507 in order to
12:45:39 12
execute a different form of -- or to execute 12:45:42 13
what's referred to as an alternative
12:45:47
14
copyright assignment and signature; is that 12:45:50 15
correct?
12:45:52
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A. That is my understanding.
12:45:52
17
(Exhibit 1231 marked for
12:46:22
18
identification.)
12:46:23
19
Q. Mr. Dubay, can you please identify
12:46:24 20
Exhibit 1231.
12:46:26
21
A. This appears to be our online committee
12:46:37 22
member application process, first part of the 12:46:43 23
form that you would fill out to apply for
12:46:47
24
technical committee membership.
12:46:49
25

Page 104
A. No. There's no place on our form to indicate 12:48:27
what category you are applying to. That's

12:48:46

ultimately the decision of our standards
council.

12:48:50

12:48:52

Q. Do you see on the third page of Exhibit 1231, 12:48:52
the page ending 38520, there's no assigned -- 12:48:59
copyright assignment language on this,
correct?

12:49:10

12:49:14

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

12:49:15

Mischaracterizes the document. Calls for a
legal opinion.

12:49:17

12:49:19

A. Each and every committee member participates
in the NFPA process with the full

12:49:23

12:49:26

understanding that the material that they're
developing is the intellectual property of

12:49:28
12:49:30

NFPA. And that has been that way for as long 12:49:33
as I've been involved in NFPA and as part of

12:49:36

the application process as well as we have a

12:49:38

policy that we verify each and every public

12:49:42

input public comment proposal that comes in
that that has happened.

Q. Do you understand what a work-made-for-hire
is?

12:49:44

12:49:47
12:49:51

12:49:55
MR. REHN: Object to the form.

Calls for a legal opinion.

Page 103

12:49:55
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A. Not specifically.

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Q. Do you have any general understanding of what 12:50:05

3

a work-made-for-hire is?

4
5
6

12:49:58

1

12:50:08

MR. REHN: Same objection. Calls
for a legal opinion.

12:50:10

the wording that we utilize on our public
input and public comments is that we do this

12:50:16
12:50:19

to establish our intellectual property at the 12:50:22

request of legal and my team's responsibility 12:52:27

7

is to ensure that those are signed off and

12:52:31

8

the forms are updated as appropriate.

12:52:34

9

legal review and they establish how to

12:50:26

11

properly word these. I don't have any

12:50:28

12

13

specific general knowledge.

12:50:30

Q. I understand what the purpose may be for the
sitting here today, understand what a

17

work-made-for-hire is?

18
19
20

12:50:24

update those forms, that is done at the

12

16

12:50:35
12:50:37

MR. REHN: Same objection. Calls

12:50:40

understand what a work-made-for-hire is.

12:50:47

Q. Do you know when language relating to

12:52:37

verify that it's been acknowledged.

12:52:41

Q. What different formulations of the

12:52:43

intellectual property language have there

14

been in the NFPA standards development

15

documents that participants are required to

16

sign?

12:52:47
12:52:56
12:52:59

12:53:01
MR. REHN: Same objection. Lacks

18

themselves.

12:53:01

foundation. The documents speak for

19

A. My response is based upon I don't necessarily 12:50:43

22

And the process in my team remains

the same. We don't get into the wording. We 12:52:39

17

12:50:41

21

10

12:52:25

13

12:50:32

12:50:38

for legal opinion.

12:52:17

6

11

language. I'm just asking if whether you,

A. My understanding is based upon our process,

where, over the years, when there's a need to 12:52:22

same time we utilize our general counsel and

15

12:52:14
12:52:16

4

10

14

MR. REHN: Same objection. The
documents speak for themselves.

5

A. My understanding of this agreement as well as 12:50:12

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9

3

12:50:11

7

2

20

12:53:03

12:53:05

A. At this point I can't diagram each one. I'd

12:53:07

21

have to review each edition of those

12:53:16

12:50:49

22

documents over the course of time.

12:53:18

23

works-made-for-hire first came into the forms 12:50:57

23

24

that NFPA required of those participating in

24

25

the NFPA standards development process?

1

12:51:01

25
12:51:04
Page 106

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

12:51:06

A. No.

3

12:51:10

Q. Do you know whether work-made-for-hire

12:51:13

4

language was in NFPA documents before 2012?

5

MR. REHN: Object to the form. If

6

you have documents to show the witness, you

7

can show them to him.

8
9
10

1
2

2

12:51:16

12:51:26

12:51:32

20 years, my knowledge is that there's always 12:51:36
been a release and sign-off associated with

12:51:38

11

the committee application as well as

12

submission of proposal and comments. When

13

those modifications came into place, I don't

14

know.

4
5

12:53:20

documents to prepare for today's deposition?
A. No.

Page 108
Q. What different formulations of the

12:53:26

intellectual property language do you recall? 12:53:30
MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
documents speak for themselves.

12:51:41

12:53:34

12:53:37

A. From my position, the way I recall it is that 12:53:40

6

we enforce the current version of the text,
which has been provided to us, on each and

8

every proposal, comment, public input

9
10
11

12:53:23

12:53:26

7

12:51:27

12:51:29

A. In my opinion, in my tenure at NFPA in the

3

Q. Have you reviewed the different types of

committee application.

12:53:43
12:53:46
12:53:48

12:53:51

Q. What different formulations of the

12:53:56

intellectual property language do you recall? 12:53:58

12:51:45

12:51:47

12

MR. REHN: Same objection. The

13

documents speak for themselves. We produced

14

12:51:43

12:54:00

forms in connection with every standard at

12:54:02

12:54:05

15

issue in this case. If you want to show him

16

been to the intellectual property language in 12:51:50

16

those forms, you can, but the documents speak 12:54:09

17

the various documents that participants in

17

for themselves.

18

the standards development processes must

19

execute?

15

20
21

Q. Do you know what modifications there have

12:51:47

12:51:54
12:51:58

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The

12:52:00

12:52:02

22

A. Not specifically.

23

Q. Generally, what do you understand to have
been modifications in the intellectual

25

property language in those documents?

12:54:12

that I can get through every form that I

12:54:13

20

would like for him to authenticate?

12:54:16

21
22

12:52:06

24

12:54:12

MR. BRIDGES: Will you stipulate

19

12:52:00

documents speak for themselves.

18

12:54:07

12:52:08

12:52:10

23
24

25
12:52:13
Page 107

MR. REHN: You can start showing him 12:54:18
some forms.

12:54:19

MR. BRIDGES: Will you stipulate

12:54:20

that you'll allow him to testify about every

12:54:21

single form I want him to authenticate?

12:54:23
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MR. REHN: I'll stipulate that you 12:54:25
1
can fill your seven hours however you choose. 12:54:27 2
Q. The question remains what different
12:54:31
3
formulations of the intellectual property
12:54:37
4
language do you recall as you sit here today? 12:54:39 5
MR. REHN: I'll object. At this
12:54:41
6
point this question has been asked and
12:54:42
7
answered multiple times. Same objection as 12:54:43 8
to the documents speaking for themselves.
12:54:46 9
MR. BRIDGES: It's not been
12:54:49
10
answered.
12:54:50
11
Q. You may proceed.
12:54:51
12
A. I don't specifically recall individual
12:54:51
13
versions of the document.
12:54:53
14
Q. You don't recall any form of the intellectual 12:54:55 15
property language that participants must sign 12:54:57 16
in order to participate in the NFPA standards 12:55:01 17
development process?
12:55:04
18
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
12:55:04
19
Mischaracterizes the testimony.
12:55:06
20
Argumentative.
12:55:08
21
A. No, I do not. I rely on our policy and our 12:55:09 22
team meeting with legal counsel and
12:55:12
23
establishing that wording in accordance with 12:55:14 24
their directions.
12:55:16
25

the 30(b)(6) notice?

12:57:20

MR. REHN: Our representation --

12:57:22

those Bates numbers represent assignment

12:57:26

forms that we produced in this litigation and 12:57:29
including assignment forms pertaining to each 12:57:32
of the standards at issue.

12:57:34

MR. BRIDGES: That's a different
thing.

12:57:38

12:57:39

Q. Mr. Dubay, are you able to identify by Bates
number, which is a term lawyers use for

12:57:39

12:57:45

document production number, one instance of
each of the different forms of assignment by

12:57:48
12:57:51

which NFPA claims that it received

12:57:57

assignments of copyrights in this action?

12:57:59

MR. REHN: Same objection as to

12:58:02

form. It's an improper question. The

12:58:03

witness can answer if he knows.

12:58:06

A. What I can tell you, I'm not sure if it

12:58:08

answers your question, my team reviews tens
of thousands of forms a year to verify

12:58:11

12:58:13

copyright signing, checking the box, signing
the forms and submitting them.

12:58:16

12:58:20

Q. How many different versions of the blank
forms has NFPA created?

12:58:22

12:58:25

A. I don't recall how many versions, but we do

12:58:28
Page 112

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1

Q. Do you have the document production numbers,

12:55:33

1

have one single version now that we use on

12:55:44

2

our online system that verifies that each and 12:58:37

instance of every form of assignment that --

12:55:48

3

every submission has the same appropriate

with which NFPA claims that a person

12:55:52

4

material in it.

2

which we call Bates numbers, of at least one

3
4
5

participating in the NFPA standards

12:55:57

5 Q. And have you seen that form today?

6

development process has signed?

12:55:59

6

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 12:56:04

7

12:58:34

7
8

an improper question for a deposition, and

9

I'll represent for the record that I provided 12:56:10

12:56:07

12:58:39

12:58:44
12:58:53

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's vague and ambiguous.

12:58:58

12:59:00

8 A. I believe I've seen the screen shot of our
9

12:59:04

comment view from NFPA 70E sample document,

12:59:09

10

Bates numbers for the assignment forms to

12:56:13

10

11

opposing counsel on the telephone on Friday.

12:56:15

11 Q. Does that have the form of assignment

12

MR. BRIDGES: One Bates number for

12:56:23

12

language that is required universally by NFPA 12:59:20

13

at this point?

13
14

each of the different forms?

12:56:24

MR. REHN: We provided the Bates

15

numbers that represent the assignment forms

16

that we have produced.

12:56:25
12:56:27

12:56:29

17

MR. BRIDGES: And that was how

18

many -- how many documents were in the range

19

that you indicated?

20
21

15

12:59:15
12:59:18

12:59:25

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's ambiguous.

12:59:31

12:59:33

16 A. It appears that you've -- if the copy and the 12:59:39

12:56:30

12:56:35

12:56:36

17

screen shots are correct, you've copied one

18

version of our copyright assignment

19

12:56:33

12:56:34

MR. REHN: I don't remember the
number.

14

Exhibit 1230.

associated with our comment system.

12:56:53

22

Q. You gave numbers 38,556 to 97,870. Is it

23

your representation that there were over

24

50,000 different instances of every form of

25

assignment in compliance with Topic No. 35 of 12:57:13
25
Page 111

12:57:08

12:59:50

20 Q. How do other forms of copyright assignment
21

12:57:05

12:59:44
12:59:46

22

differ from that -- strike that.

12:59:54

01:00:04

How do the other forms of copyright

01:00:08

23

assignment that NFPA requires differ from the 01:00:10

24

one in that -- the ones in that exhibit?
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

01:00:14
01:00:18
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Assumes facts.

01:00:19

1

Exhibit 1230 has at the end a copyright

01:03:43

2

assignment and signature, and it has an

01:03:52

01:00:27

3

alternative copyright assignment and

01:03:56

4

input, I'm not positive if the wording is the 01:00:30

4

signature.

5

same or not, public comment. And the next

01:00:33

5

01:00:36

6

to that NFPA requires with respect to

7

copyright for public comments?

2

A. We have primarily three areas. One is our

3

public input. For each and every public

6

area is each and every committee member,

7

through our application process, has an

8

appropriate assignment form.

01:00:22

01:00:39
01:00:42

9

Q. And was that the assignment form you just

10

referred to the same form that is shown in

11

Exhibit 1231?

01:03:59

Are those the forms you're referring 01:04:00
01:04:02
01:04:04

8

01:00:45
01:00:49

A. NFPA has a policy to require copyright

9

01:04:10

sign-off for all public comments, and

01:04:13

A. With the same caveat that assuming that the

13

form has been properly duplicated from the

14

website, it appears so, with the knowledge

15

that we had a paper system prior to this for

16

both of these systems.

01:01:09
01:01:11
01:01:15
01:01:16

Exhibit 1230 appears to have both the primary 01:04:16

11

01:00:55

12

10

copyright assignment as well as the

12

alternative copyright statement on 506 and

13
14

507 of that exhibit.

01:04:20
01:04:29

Q. What other form does the public have for what 01:04:30

15

you call public input as opposed to public

16

01:01:18

01:04:23

comment?

01:04:33

01:04:37

17

Q. I'll represent that we didn't get this from

01:01:19

17

A. To clarify, did you say forum or form?

18

your website. I'll represent that NFPA's

01:01:22

18

Q. Form, F O R M.

19

counsel produced this in document production

19

A. The public input form looks very similar to

01:04:49

20

in this case.

20

the public comment form. The document is

01:04:53

21

based upon the current edition of the

01:01:52

22

standard, so very similar process.

23

of assignment, did you say one was for public 01:01:54

23

24

input, one was for committee members? What

24

copyright assignment language as

25

was the third?

25

Exhibit 1230?

21
22

01:01:24

01:01:26

MR. REHN: That's correct.

01:01:27

Q. So you said there were three different forms

01:01:56

01:02:00

01:04:39

01:04:46

01:04:57
01:04:59

Q. Does it have the same or very similar

01:05:02
01:05:05

01:05:07

Page 114
1

A. There are three primary versions of
assignment that I can think of right now and

3

one is public input, any and all public

4

inputs; one is public comment; and one is

5

committee membership.

6
8

correct?

11
12
13
14
15
16

01:02:33

you've given me, that would be shifted to
"public input."

Q. With the agreement and certification

01:05:21
01:05:23

01:05:26

6

Q. Otherwise, they'd be the same?

A. Otherwise, it is my opinion that they would

9
10

01:02:35
01:02:36

11

be the same.

01:05:27

(Exhibit 1232 marked for
identification.)

01:05:29

01:05:31
01:05:53
01:05:57

Q. I hand you an exhibit marked 1232. I'll

01:06:01

01:02:44

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
The document speaks for itself.

12

represent it's been produced to us by NFPA's

01:02:47

regarding copyright at the end, correct?

13

counsel. I just want to confirm that this is 01:06:08

14

an organization chart of NFPA's management

15

and staff as of October 2014; is that

16

correct?

01:02:48

A. It appears that the agreement certification
is on page ending in 520.

term "public comment" within the exhibit

4

8

01:02:28

committee application tool.

01:05:14

However, with public inputs, where we use the 01:05:19

7

01:02:21

01:02:26

A. Exhibit 1231 does appear to be our online

A. My understanding is it's very similar.

5

01:02:11

Q. So committee membership I think you said was

2
3

01:02:08

Exhibit 1231. That's the form for that,

9

01:02:04

01:02:14

7

10

1

01:02:01

2

Page 116

01:02:51

01:02:55

17

01:06:25

01:06:32

01:06:43

A. To the best of my knowledge it appears

01:06:45

17

Q. And then Exhibit 1230 is the form for public

18

comment that includes near the end either a

01:03:03

18

accurate with one exception. James Pauley on 01:06:47

19

copyright assignment and signature or an

01:03:06

19

Page 1 is president of NFPA and my direct

20

alternative copyright assignment --

21

(Interruption)

22

interruption.

25

Q. Exhibit 1230 -- just to be clear,

supervisor.

Q. I guess it's indicated that way on the later

22

papers of the exhibit, just not on the first

01:03:38

23

01:03:18

page; is that correct?

01:06:51

01:06:55

21
01:03:35

question that was interrupted by that

24

20

01:03:08

MR. REHN: Can we strike the

23

01:03:00

01:06:04

01:07:00
01:07:06

01:07:08

24

01:03:41

A. It appears so, yes.

25

01:03:39

Q. Are you the number two ranking member of the

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01:07:19
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NFPA staff?

1

3 Q. Are you familiar with litigation that NFPA
4

01:08:06

was in against International Code Council?

5

01:08:17

MR. REHN: Object to the question

01:08:30

3

same time balancing our need to protect our

4

intellectual property, our revenue and

5

ultimately the advancement of our safety
mission.

6

insofar as it's outside the scope of any

7

topics, I believe any notice topics, period,

01:08:30

7

8

but certainly topics for which this witness

01:08:31

8

9

was designated. But the witness may answer

10

01:08:30

understands the requirements while at the

6

01:07:30

access that allows anyone to read and

2

01:07:25

2 A. I'm one of several vice presidents.

it in his personal knowledge.

01:08:34

16

Q. How does read-only access allow NFPA to
protect its revenue and to protect the

01:11:26

01:11:33

advancement of its safety mission?

01:11:36

A. NFPA relies on the sale of our intellectual

01:11:43

on our mission while at the same time

13

balancing that against providing free

14

read-only access to all of our documents so

15

that anyone who's potentially impacted by

01:11:57

01:08:53

16

them has the ability to read and understands

01:11:59

17

those requirements.

pleadings in that case?

MR. REHN: Same objection as to
scope.

01:08:46

01:08:49
01:08:52

18 Q. Were you aware of any of the arguments that

01:08:56

18

19

NFPA made in defense of copyright claims by

01:08:59

19

20

ICC?

01:09:03

20

21 A. No.

01:09:07

21

23

01:11:21

01:11:23

12

01:08:46

17 A. No.

22

01:11:19

01:08:55

at all.

15

01:11:17

property to fund our mission, to move forward 01:11:47

01:08:38

13 Q. Did you ever review any of the documents or
14

01:11:15

11

11 A. I was aware of it, but no specific knowledge
12

9
10

01:08:36

01:11:14

MR. REHN: Same objection as to
scope.

01:09:07

22
23

01:09:08

24 Q. What protocols and procedures does NFPA have

01:09:41

24

25
01:09:45
Page 118

25

regarding granting licenses or permissions

1

for any third party to use NFPA's codes and

2

standards?

01:11:50
01:11:53

01:12:01

Q. What do you mean by NFPA's intellectual
property in that answer?

01:12:02

01:12:05

MR. REHN: Object to form. May call 01:12:06
for a legal opinion.

01:12:08

MR. BRIDGES: I'm asking what he
meant by it.

01:12:10

01:12:11

A. What I meant by our intellectual property is

01:12:15

our codes and standards that are developed

1

process and our other publications.

01:12:18
Page 120

through the NFPA standards development

2

01:09:49

01:09:51

01:11:54

01:12:19
01:12:21

01:09:53

3

Q. How easy is it for somebody to read and

4

This witness was not designated on that

01:09:55

4

understand the National Electrical Code

5

topic, but the witness may answer to the

01:09:57

5

through read-only access on NFPA's website?

6

extent he has personal knowledge.

3

MR. REHN: Objection as to scope.

8

the licensing agreements work other than it

9

01:10:03

involves our product and marketing team as

10

6

01:09:59

7 A. I have very little personal knowledge of how

well as our legal team.

01:10:07

7
8

01:12:35
01:12:59

MR. REHN: Objection to form. Vague 01:13:08
and ambiguous.

01:13:10

A. Based on my personal experience, I've never

12

access to read-only versions of NFPA's codes

13

and standards?

01:10:15

01:10:23

01:10:26

14 A. To the best of my knowledge, we believe that

01:10:30

had any complaints about it and, in fact,

01:13:16

I've had several requests from states and

01:13:19

11

other jurisdictions to provide access to

12

their jurisdictions through widgets and on

13

11 Q. Do you know why NFPA decided to provide free

the web links to give their constituents free 01:13:27

14

read-only access to it.

01:13:21
01:13:23

01:13:36

15

by providing free access, read-only access to 01:10:32

15

16

all of our codes and standards that we can

01:10:36

16

somebody to read and understand the National

17

ensure that anyone, including the public, is

01:10:38

17

Electrical Code through read-only access on

18

able to read and understand the requirements

18

NFPA's website?

19

of all of our standards at any time.

21

01:10:50

22
23

standards?

01:10:55

access facilitates understanding of the

24

01:10:41

01:10:43

Is it NFPA's belief that read-only

01:11:06

MR. REHN: Object as to form.

19
20
21

Q. So my question is, how easy is it for

01:13:38

and answered.

01:11:08

complaints about any difficulty at all. I

would assume, in my personal opinion, that

24

it's very easy.
Q. You just assume it's easy?

01:13:47

01:13:49

A. My response remains the same. I've had no

22

25
01:11:10
Page 119

01:13:41
01:13:43

01:13:45

MR. REHN: Same objections. Asked

23

01:11:05

25 A. We believe that by providing free read-only

01:13:13

9
10

01:10:10

01:10:14

20 Q. And is it your -- strike that.

01:13:03

01:13:54

01:13:56
01:14:00

01:14:01
01:14:03
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MR. REHN: Objection.

01:14:04

Argumentative.

3

A. My previous answer stands.

4

01:14:05

Q. You assume that it's easy?

5
6

01:14:08
01:14:09

MR. REHN: Same objection.
A. Yes.

7

01:14:11

01:14:12

MR. REHN: Asked and answered.

8

Q. You may answer.

9

01:14:13

A. My previous answer stands.

10
11

01:14:14
01:14:16

Q. You have nothing more to add to your answer,
I gather, in response to my question?

12

01:14:19

01:14:22

MR. REHN: Objection to form.

01:14:25

13

Q. That's your complete answer, that's fine.

01:14:26

14

A. No.

15

Q. No, that is your complete answer or no, that

01:14:28
01:14:29

16

is not your complete answer?

01:14:38

17

A. I have nothing further to add.

01:14:39

18

Q. How much text can somebody read without

19

scrolling in NFPA's read-only access on its

20

website?

21
22
23
24
25

01:14:43
01:14:55

01:15:03

MR. REHN: Objection to form.
Assumes facts.

01:15:06

01:15:08

A. If I recall correctly, the last time I was on 01:15:10
the site, it was one page.

01:15:13

Q. It was one full page of the code?

01:15:19

1 A. We provide read-only access, and that's
01:16:36
2
the limit of the term of free read-only.
01:16:39
3
There are not other features to that
01:16:41
4
platform.
01:16:43
5
MR. BRIDGES: If it's all right,
01:17:10
6
why don't we go ahead and take our lunch
01:17:12
7
break now. If we can convene in one hour,
01:17:14
8
I'd appreciate it.
01:17:17
9
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 1:17.
01:17:17
10
We are now off the record.
01:17:19
11
(Lunch break)
01:17:47
12
01:17:47
13
01:17:47
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Page 122

Page 124
1

1

A. I believe so.

2

Q. And NFPA designs the website to preclude

01:15:24
01:15:24

2

3

anybody from being able to cut and paste text 01:15:27

3

4

from the read-only access, correct?

4

5
6
7

01:15:33

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Assumes facts.

access to all of our codes and standards.

9

Q. Its policy is not to facilitate cutting and

11

5

01:15:50

of rights to NFPA as part of the standards
development process. I'm going to show you

A. NFPA provides access to our codes and

02:23:02
02:23:06

02:23:08

I basically need from you a yes or

02:23:09

01:16:05

no from you for each one as to whether, based 02:23:12

13

01:16:03

15

a number of these documents.

02:22:50
02:22:57

12

01:15:59

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

02:22:44

purport to claim, purport to be assignments

11

Q. And nothing more?

02:22:35

tens of thousands of pages of documents that

versions of the codes and standards, correct? 01:15:56

14

BY MR. BRIDGES:

Q. Mr. Dubay, your counsel furnished to us

7

10

13

02:21:25

02:22:33

9

01:15:47

A. Our policy is to provide read-only.

We are now back on the record.

8

01:15:43

pasting of the text from the read-only access 01:15:53

12

01:17:51

6

01:15:40

A. NFPA's policy is to provide free read-only

8
10

01:15:39

AFTERNOON SESSION
VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:22.

on this representation, based on the document 02:23:14

14

as you see it, you believe that they are

02:23:18

01:16:07

15

indeed documents that NFPA possesses as part

16

standards in a multitude of ways and multiple 01:16:11

16

of that process. The first one is

17

platforms and various aspects. One way is

17

Exhibit 1233.

18

through free read-only access to all of our

19

codes and standards.

01:16:13

19

01:16:18

20

Q. Does NFPA provide those who access the

21

read-only standard the ability to cut and

22

paste text from those standards, yes or no?

23

18

01:16:16

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

24

The witness may answer it, but he's not

25

limited in his answer.

01:16:19

20

02:23:30

(Exhibit 1233 marked for
identification.)

02:23:36
02:23:53

Q. Does this appear to you to be a record that

02:23:53

21

NFPA maintains in the ordinary course of its

01:16:24

22

business as preserving the documentation

01:16:29

23

for participants for participation in the

01:16:32

24

standards development process?

01:16:22

25

01:16:34

02:23:57
02:24:00

02:24:06
02:24:11

A. In this case, the best of my knowledge, it

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02:23:22

02:23:27

02:24:12
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does. However, I should note that I didn't

02:24:16

1

2

start at NFPA till 1995, so I wouldn't have

02:24:19

2

3

had knowledge of the specific forms, but it

02:24:23

3

Q. Same questions with respect to Exhibit 1237.

4

looks like a typical NFPA historical form.

02:24:25

4

Do you believe that this is a document that

5

Q. Does the language at the bottom of that page

5

NFPA maintains in the ordinary course of its

6

resemble language that you recall in NFPA

6

business that it received as part of the

7
8
9
10
11

forms?

02:24:26
02:24:30

02:24:32

A. Yes, it looks familiar to me.

7

02:24:45

(Exhibit 1234 marked for

8

02:25:15

identification.)

9

02:25:19

10

Q. Same question with respect to Exhibit 1234.

02:25:19

11

(Exhibit 1237 marked for
identification.)

02:29:25
02:29:25
02:29:25

02:29:28
02:29:31

02:29:34

standards development process?

02:29:37

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, this would
also seem typical.

02:29:53

(Exhibit 1238 marked for
identification.)

02:29:39

02:29:55
02:30:19

12

Does this appear to be a document from NFPA's 02:25:33

12

Q. Same questions with respect to Exhibit 1238.

02:30:19

13

records of the standards development process

13

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, this also

02:30:38

14

that it keeps in its ordinary course of

15
16

business?

02:25:35

02:25:38

02:25:40

15

A. Yes, it looks like the right format, however, 02:25:58

17

with the caveat that "I hereby grant NAPA"

18

at the bottom. It's not NFPA. I'm not sure

19

where that typo came from.

20
21

14

02:26:01

23

Q. To the best of your knowledge, is this a

02:26:17

Q. Do you believe Exhibit 1239 is a document
that NFPA has maintained in its records in
the ordinary course of business as part of

20

the standards development process and is a
document that it requires of participants in

22

02:26:16

17

that process?

23

24

document from NFPA's records? I'll represent 02:26:20

24

25

it was produced by NFPA.

25

02:26:24
Page 126

1

the best of my knowledge, it does look

3

typical for them.

4
5

02:26:30

(Exhibit 1235 marked for

6

Q. Same questions with respect to Exhibit 1235.

7

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, it appears
to be typical of what I would expect.

9

(Exhibit 1236 marked for

10

02:27:02
02:27:23

MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 02:31:39
that question. Compound.

02:31:40

A. My answer would be with respect to this form, 02:31:45
Page 128
it looks like a typical proposal form versus
something a participant in the process would
fill out. But as a public proposal form, it
looks typical.

02:31:47
02:31:50

02:31:53

02:31:56

Q. As a public proposal form, what do you mean

6

distinguishing that from somebody who's a

7

participant in the process?

02:32:03

A. I understand participants to be committee

9

members as well as public submitters, so I

02:32:07
02:32:12

10

02:28:08

02:31:59

02:32:05

8

02:27:26
02:28:06

identification.)

02:31:36

5

02:27:02

8

02:31:30
02:31:34

1

4

02:26:51

identification.)

02:31:23

3

02:26:29

02:31:11
02:31:26

2

A. To the best of my knowledge -- excuse me. To 02:26:26

2

02:30:52
02:31:11

21

02:26:16

A. That is correct.

(Exhibit 1239 marked for
identification.)

19

Q. The second acronym in that paragraph is NFPA, 02:26:11

22

02:30:44

18

02:26:05

02:26:09

correct?

16

seems typical.

just -- our committee members have different

02:32:16

11

forms to utilize, so I just want to clarify

12

believe these to be -- do you believe this to 02:28:13

12

that point.

13

be a copy of a document that NFPA has

02:28:17

13

Q. What forms do the committee members provide?

14

maintained in the ordinary course of business 02:28:21

14

A. They have a committee member application

in its standards development process?

15

11

15

Q. Same questions with respect to 1236. You

02:28:08

02:28:25

16

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, this as

17

well, Exhibit 1236 does also look typical.

18

Q. Has the same language at the bottom of the

19

page as at least some of the earlier

20

exhibits?

21
22
23
24
25

fill out a committee member application.

17

This is a form on a public proposal or

18

public comment which is the public open,
public process.

02:32:46
02:32:46
02:32:47

02:32:52

20

02:29:01
02:29:10

for suggesting language changes for the code

22

02:28:59

Q. So do the committee members use any forms

21

02:28:51

A. It does look similar to some of the other
forms.

02:28:44

02:28:47

MR. REHN: Object to the form of
the question. It's vague.

02:28:39

or standards?

23
24

02:29:15

25

02:29:15

02:32:32

02:32:37

form, so you -- that we covered earlier, they 02:32:40

16

19

02:28:29

02:32:18

02:32:22

02:33:01

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Foundation.

02:33:04

02:33:04

A. No. If they wanted to submit them as a

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02:32:53
02:32:55

02:33:07
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member of the public, they can do that

02:33:08

1

2

through utilizing these forms or they can

02:33:09

2

3

just do it verbally or through working

4

documents at the committee meeting.

5

(Exhibit 1240 marked for

6
7

02:33:11

3

02:33:13
02:34:24

identification.)

5

02:34:33

6

Q. Handing you Exhibit 1240. Do you believe

02:34:33

8

this to be a copy of a document that NFPA has 02:34:41

9

maintained in the ordinary course of business 02:34:45

10
11
12

reflecting a proposal received regarding the
1999 National Electrical Code?

02:34:49

02:34:52

A. It does appear to be a proposal form, and it

13

does look -- the edition is cut off, but I

14

4

02:40:41

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May
call for speculation.

A. Based upon the form, I would speculate that
Richard Owen...

02:35:05

Q. He was employed at the time by the City of
St. Paul, based upon this document, it

8

appears; is that correct?

9

02:41:22

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

02:41:26

A. Based upon reviewing the form, it does appear 02:41:31
that he was still employed by the City of
St. Paul.

02:41:34

02:41:37

Q. Does this comment reflect the comment that
Mr. Owen has relayed from the

02:41:45

Panel 3/Panel 16 Task Group?

02:41:49

Electrical Code. The top half of that is cut 02:35:13

15

16

off.

16

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

17

(Pause)

17
18
19

(Exhibit 1241 marked for

02:36:03

identification.)

02:36:10

18

Q. I've handed you Exhibit 1241. Does this

02:36:10

19

02:41:57

02:41:57

MR. REHN: I think there's a
question pending.

02:42:24
02:42:24

20

also appear to be a document that NFPA has

21

maintained in the ordinary course of business 02:36:27

21

question? I heard you make a statement.

02:42:27

22

consisting of a record from its standards

22

Q. Does this comment reflect -- strike that.

02:42:30

23
24
25

development process?

02:36:24

02:41:38

14

15

02:35:15

02:41:07

02:41:21

12
13

02:35:09

02:40:47

02:41:03

7

10

02:40:43

02:40:46

11

02:35:02

believe it does look like the 1999 National

comment?

02:36:31

23

02:36:34

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, it appears
to be consistent.

20

02:36:38

02:42:26

Does this form -- strike that.

24
25

02:36:42

A. Is there -- I apologize. Is there a

02:42:33

Does Exhibit 1242 reflect a comment
that Mr. Owen relayed from the

02:42:36

02:42:38

Page 130
1
2
3

(Exhibit 1242 marked for

02:39:02

Q. I just handed you, I think that's

02:39:02

Panel 3/Panel 16 Task Group referred to in

02:42:41

the document which has reference also to

02:42:46

3

members of those panels at the bottom of the

4

first page and top of the second page of the

5

exhibit?

4

Exhibit 1242. Do you recognize this as a

5

document that NFPA maintains in its records

6

in the ordinary course of business as part

02:39:30

6

7

of the standards development process

02:39:33

7

8
9
10

recordkeeping?

02:39:19

1
2

02:36:46

identification.)

Page 132

this.

13

Q. Who is Richard Owen?

14

A. He is a retired electrical inspector who

02:39:46

02:39:49
02:39:50
02:39:52

15

served on our technical committee panels for

16

the National Electrical Code.

Q. Does this document reflect a proposal by

18

participants in the standards development

19

process?

23

02:40:03
02:40:17

02:43:00

02:43:01

A. Based upon my review of this specific form
here, it appears that Mr. Owen who, as I

02:43:04
02:43:07

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

02:40:22
02:40:26

Q. And so this -- this -- that's right. This is 02:40:33
a form for comments, not a form for

25

proposals. Sorry. And who authored this

11

did submit something on behalf of a task

group, and that's based upon that first line. 02:43:17

13
14
15
16
17
18
20
21

02:43:11

02:43:15

Q. Are those groups also committee members? Are 02:43:20
group members committee members?

02:43:25

MR. REHN: Objection.
Q. Strike that.

02:43:27
02:43:27

Are the group members in those task

02:43:28

groups also technical committee members -MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
Q. -- or were they at the time?

02:43:29
02:43:32

02:43:33

MR. REHN: Compound.

02:43:35

22

02:40:29

24

stated, was a longstanding committee member,

19

02:40:19

A. No. It appears to be a comment, not a
proposal.

02:39:58

02:40:01

17

22

MR. REHN: And I'll object to the
form.

12

Q. Do you know who Richard Owen is?
A. Yes.

9

02:42:58

10

02:39:43

12

21

8

02:39:36

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, I recognize 02:39:38

11

20

02:39:27

02:42:51
02:42:56

02:40:37

A. Without seeing this specific committee list,

23

I couldn't tell you. I see from the wording

24

he references from panel such and such for

02:43:48

some of them, but without reviewing the

02:43:51
Page 133

25
02:40:39
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02:43:37
02:43:45

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committee list at the time, I can't tell you

2

for certain.

02:43:55

1

02:43:56

2

3

Q. Based upon the -- do you have any reason to

4

disbelieve any of the statements he made in

5

that document?

02:43:57
02:44:05

3

Q. How did the five to ten different forms vary
from each other?

02:47:25

02:47:32

A. Most often, based upon my recollection of my

02:47:38

4

20 years, the forms most often differed based 02:47:42

5

upon the submission method. We get tens of

02:44:18

6

thousands of these forms every year or we

7

as panel members or himself as a panel chair, 02:44:22

7

used to, now they're all electronic. And

8

I have no reason to specifically agree or

8

when we got those, people would submit those

9

disagree with that because I don't have the

9

via PDF as attachments, consolidated word

6

10
11
12
13

02:44:07

A. With respect to the names that he identifies

full record in front of me.

02:44:31

02:44:32

(Exhibit 1243 marked for
identification.)

02:44:28

02:47:45
02:47:50

02:47:53
02:47:55
02:47:57

10
11

Q. I handed you Exhibit 1243. This looks

02:44:52

so, depending how they were submitted and

12

02:44:44
02:44:52

documents as well as paper faxes, FedEx. And 02:48:01
received, they might have a slightly

13

different look to them.

02:48:06

02:48:07
02:48:09

14

freshly typed in some respect, but does this

02:45:00

14

Q. You mentioned slightly different look. How

15

appear to be substantially the correct form

02:45:06

15

many different forms have there been during

16

for a form for proposals in 1995, to your

02:45:15

16

this period since 1995 in the sense that they 02:48:13

17

knowledge?

17

have had different wording?

18
19

02:45:21

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

02:45:21

02:48:19

18

A. To the best of my knowledge, it looks like as 02:45:27

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

19

A. I would say, based upon my experience since
1995, I would -- overall wording changes, I

20

the wording from a typical proposal form.

02:45:32

20

21

However, in past history over the years, as

02:45:36

21

22

you've noted from the record, there's many

23

different versions of our forms and ways of

24

submission. So it looks like it's freshly

25

typed, as you said.

02:45:38

22

02:45:40

23
24

02:45:42

25

02:45:47

02:48:22

2

would have to estimate five or six, at most.

02:48:41

Q. What have some of those wording changes been? 02:48:45
MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
documents speaks for themselves.

02:48:51
02:48:53

A. The wording forms are changed -- our forms

3
4

02:49:00
Page 136

1

change to reflect terminology within our

02:49:03

2

standards development system as our

02:49:05

02:45:51

3

regulations changed, section versus article,

02:49:07

02:45:55

4

annex versus appendix and such, as well as

5

any updates to any legal disclaimers or

Q. So how many different versions of the forms
have there been?

02:48:33
02:48:36

Page 134
1

02:48:10
02:48:12

02:45:47

02:45:50

A. I can't -- I would be speculating. I'm not
quite sure how many over the years.

02:49:10

Q. What is your best estimate?

6

A. The reason I'm thinking about this is going

02:46:02

6

copyright releases during our normal update

7

back to 1896, I would imagine there was on

02:46:13

7

process. So those are some of the ways I can 02:49:21

8

the order of a large magnitude of different

9

forms. I'm just not quite sure how to

02:46:20

9

capture that many years of history.

02:46:26

10

changes in the answer just now, one change

11

relating to the words, section and article;

12

is that correct?

10
11

02:45:58

02:49:13

5

02:46:16

Q. So during your -- let me ask you, since 1995, 02:46:30

12

how many different forms are you aware of

13

that NFPA has had, how many different

14

versions of forms for proposals has NFPA had

15
16

since 1995?

02:46:32

8

think they might have changed.

02:49:25

Q. I think you identified three different

02:49:32

02:46:42

02:46:46

A. We've probably had different -- we have two

02:46:50

02:49:37
02:49:43

02:49:49

13

A. That is correct, section versus article.

14

Q. Which word replaced the other?

15

02:46:35

02:49:17

02:49:51

A. They coexist, actually, section and article

16

coexist. Our standards, exclusive of our

02:49:53
02:49:56
02:50:00

17

aspects. One is ways of submissions and

17

electrical suite of standards, rely on the

02:50:02

18

forms. Historically there was paper and

02:47:00

18

term "section" while as the National

02:50:05

19

online electronic via PDFs and now it's all

02:47:02

19

Electrical Code and a few other of our

20

online. So those on the order of five to

20

electrical standards rely on the term

21

ten, depending on the project.

21

"article."

02:46:57

02:47:07
02:47:10

02:50:07
02:50:10

02:50:11

22

Q. What's the reason for that distinction?

23

Code had its own unique title on their forms, 02:47:14

23

A. We have two style manuals, NFPA style manual, 02:50:16

24

so it was known that it went to the National

24

which applies to the broad library of our

02:50:20

25

Electrical Code.

25

codes and standards; and our national or

02:50:23
Page 137

22

For example, the National Electrical 02:47:13
02:47:17

02:47:25
Page 135

02:50:11

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electrical style manual, which applies to our 02:50:24

1

2

electrical documents.

2

3
4
5
6
7

02:50:27

Q. Do the terms "annex" and "appendix" coexist
in NFPA's forms today?

02:50:45

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Lacks foundation.

"appendix" to "annex" at that time to be

11

terminology.

a single chapter where all the definitions

7

are included.

8
9

02:51:09

02:51:12

13

not all, of our documents, many of our

14

documents have gone through the process of a

15

full revision where that is changed from

16

appendix to annex.

02:51:23

02:51:39

20

Q. Do the different standards developers tend to 02:51:55

02:51:53

converge around terminology and format that
works for their constituents that utilize

02:52:13

that through our process.

Q. What were some of the changes to the forms

that you recall as part of those updates?

02:54:35

speak for themselves.

02:54:38

02:54:40

A. I think some of the major changes are

02:54:43

historically, there was lots of different

7

formattings and layouts. Having consistent

8

format, consistent titles, consistent look

9

and feel is probably the biggest ones that I

02:52:33

10

02:52:20

02:52:26

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May

02:54:31
Page 140

MR. REHN: Objection. Documents

02:52:23

practices of various standards development
organizations?

4

02:54:27

02:54:29

6

02:52:18

9

3

02:54:24

consistent format. If you notice

Q. Does that lead to some convergence among the

call for speculation.

update our forms, and we would accomplish

24

02:54:46
02:54:49
02:54:49
02:54:51
02:54:55

was -- that I'm aware of and was involved in. 02:54:59

11

Q. My question was specifically to the updates
of disclaimers and copyright releases. What

02:55:02

updates do you recall to the text of the

02:55:09

14

disclaimers and copyright releases?

02:55:12

02:55:05

A. I would -- from my personal opinion, I view

13

it as a usability and we want to make it as

14

easy and as possible for users to understand

15

the structure of the standard and the

16

requirements and the layout of the documents, 02:52:51

16

17

so often those changes may end up in a common 02:52:53

17

responsibility. Oftentimes we were given a

18

format to make it easier to understand.

18

set of text to insert as that part of the

19

form and we didn't do a line by line

20

comparison. That was -- our job was to

21

implement the appropriate disclaimers, which

22

was legal's responsibility to provide to us

20
21
22
23

02:52:37

12
13

02:52:34

12

19

02:52:41
02:52:45

02:52:57
02:52:59

02:53:01

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Vague.

15

02:52:49

Q. A common format with some other standards
developers organizations?

02:53:05

02:53:06

A. In my view, yes. For example, a given set

24

chapter where all the definitions are

25

contained is a good example.

02:54:17

02:54:22

5

02:52:15

8

11

was often our legal team would ask us to

2

A. In my opinion I would say standard developers 02:52:08

5

A. From my perspective, my team's perspective,
we never got into the details of those. It

1
02:52:03

4

02:54:10

21

25
02:51:58
Page 138

02:52:01

02:54:08
02:54:14

23

A. Not that I'm aware of.

24

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May

22

02:51:46

02:54:02

02:54:06

respect to the terms used in the question.

23

10

and copyright releases?

call for a legal opinion. Ambiguous with

Q. Is there a general style manual for standards 02:51:41

their standards.

02:54:00

19

A. That's correct.

7

but as needed.

02:53:51

Q. What updates were needed to the disclaimers

18

21

6

A. That is correct. Over my 20 years, I'm aware 02:53:48

17

02:51:35

converge around using words in similar

02:53:40

02:53:47

to the forms on a -- not on a specific basis, 02:53:57

14
16

20

3

correct?

02:51:33

organizations' terminology; is that correct?

fashion?

disclaimers and copyright releases; is that

02:51:29

consistent with other standards development

2

Q. Then you mentioned that there were updates to 02:53:36

that updates were added to the forms or just

15

02:51:26

19

1

02:53:30

02:53:33

13

02:51:21

Q. You said NFPA made the change to be

02:53:25

12

02:51:17

18

25

10
11

And so it's my opinion that most, if 02:51:14

developers terminology?

there, but the best example I can give you is 02:53:28

6

02:51:05

consistent with other standards developers

02:53:22

example that I could think of why we shifted

02:51:02

10

22

02:53:20

02:50:56

was year 2000, and we changed the term

17

to annex, correct?

A. To the best of my recollection, that's an

5

02:50:54

A. We updated our manual style in, I believe it

9

3
4

02:50:48

8

12

02:50:37

Q. Another example is changing the word appendix 02:53:17

02:53:06

23
24

02:53:13

25

02:53:14

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

02:55:15

A. That was not, again, not part of my

and ensure that it got in there.

02:55:18
02:55:21

02:55:23
02:55:26
02:55:29
02:55:31

02:55:33

02:55:35

Q. What are some of the changes that you recall? 02:55:37
MR. REHN: Objection. Asked and

Page 139

02:55:40
Page 141

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answered.

02:55:41

2

A. I don't recall specific wording changes.

3

Q. Do you recall generally any wording changes?

4
5

02:55:43

MR. REHN: Same objection.

02:55:45

02:55:50

A. I only recall changes to the general form and 02:55:51

6

I understand you're asking about the

7

disclaimer. I don't recall any specific ones 02:55:55

8

or copyright release or disclaimers or

9

transfers.

02:55:54
02:55:57

02:55:59

10

Q. You don't recall anything about changes in

11

text of disclaimers or copyright language?

12
13
14
15
16
17

02:56:01
02:56:04

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The

02:56:09

documents speak for themselves. The question 02:56:10
has been answered.

02:56:14

A. No, I do not.

02:56:16

(Exhibit 1244 marked for

02:56:52

identification.)

02:57:05

18

Q. Mr. Dubay, do you recognize Exhibit 1244 as

02:57:05

19

another document from -- that NFPA maintains

02:57:14

20

in the ordinary course of business as part of 02:57:18

21

the standards development process?

02:57:23

22

A. Yes. Again, this seems like another

02:57:26

23

typical -- Exhibit 1244 seems like another

24

typical form.

25

02:57:29

02:57:32

Q. Is this typical for content of types of

02:57:33

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q. That's a yes, then?
03:00:28
A. Yes, it does look typical.
03:00:29
Q. It appears that this document lacks a
03:00:39
signature. I gather that NFPA would accept 03:00:42
proposals like this that lacked signatures; 03:00:46
is that correct?
03:00:50
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
03:00:50
A. We have a policy in place to not accept any 03:00:52
proposals, comments, public inputs or public 03:00:54
comments in our new process without the
03:00:57
appropriate copyright transfer. In my
03:00:59
personal opinion, I note that it's an -- it 03:01:02
appears to be a Word file and many times we 03:01:04
would get individuals would submit large
03:01:07
numbers of proposals and comments with a
03:01:10
cover sheet having a signature applying to
03:01:13
all of them.
03:01:15
And this may be that case, but I'm 03:01:18
speculating on that point. But we have a
03:01:20
strict policy in place to review each policy 03:01:22
for signature.
03:01:26
Q. Because it's important to NFPA to get a
03:01:26
signature to Point 5 on this document; is
03:01:29
that correct?
03:01:34
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
03:01:34

Page 142
1

proposals that NFPA receives?

Page 144
1

02:57:41

A. We have a policy in place, and the importance 03:01:39

2 A. In general I think it's one example. We

02:57:49

2

of that policy is to verify each and every

3

02:57:52

3

public input, public comment and under the

4

old system, proposal that a signature was

5

provided on any and all submissions.

receive many different types and formats.

4 Q. I understand that.
5
6

02:57:55

(Exhibit 1245 marked for

02:57:58

identification.)

6

02:58:19

7 Q. Same question with respect to Exhibit 1245.

02:58:19

7

8

Do you recognize this as a document that NFPA 02:58:33

8

9

maintains in the ordinary course of business

02:58:37

9

as part of its standards development process? 02:58:39

10

10

typical.

14 A. I don't know Stan personally, but I know his
name. I know of him, I should say.

02:58:58

02:59:01
02:59:20

18 A. Off the top of my head, I don't recall.
identification.)

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Asked and answered.

03:02:00
03:02:03

A. Historically, for my team, it was important

one task. And during times of heavy volumes, 03:02:15

14

we would assign multiple staff to that
specific task.

03:02:18

03:02:21

(Exhibit 1247 marked for

03:03:06

identification.)

03:03:41

03:00:03

03:03:41

recognize this as a document that NFPA

03:03:53

20

03:00:03

Q. I've handed you Exhibit 1247. Do you

19

maintains in the ordinary course of business

03:03:55

21

as part of the standard development process?

22

recognize this as a document that NFPA has

03:00:08

22

23

maintained in the ordinary course of business 03:00:11

23

as part of the standards development process? 03:00:14

24

Q. This was a non-electrical form, but the

25

sender indicated it was for the National

25 A. Exhibit 1246 does look typical.

03:02:13

18

02:59:25
02:59:30

21 Q. I've handed you Exhibit 1246. Do you

24

03:02:05

that we had full-time staff assigned to that

17

20

03:01:54

03:01:56

13

17

(Exhibit 1246 marked for

get that for Paragraph 5?

15

02:58:52

16

19

Q. My question was whether it was important to

because we had a policy in place to the point 03:02:11

16 Q. Is he a member of any technical committee, or 02:59:16
has he ever been?

03:01:51

11

02:58:46

02:58:49

13 Q. By the way, do you know who Stan Kaufman is?
15

03:01:45
03:01:48

12

11 A. Yes, it also -- Exhibit 1245 also looks
12

03:01:42

03:00:22

A. Yes, this form does look typical,
Exhibit 1247.

Page 143

03:04:00

03:04:08
03:04:11
03:04:11
03:04:14
Page 145

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Electrical Code; is that correct?

03:04:18

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

1

03:04:21

A. It appears based on Line Item 1A that the

03:04:26

4

document the person was submitting it on was

5

to the National Electrical Code.

03:04:29

03:04:32

Q. There was normally -- didn't you say there

7

was normally a different type of form for

8

submissions for the National Electrical Code? 03:04:39

9

03:04:34

03:10:40

Q. Do you know Mr. Belke, James C. Belke?

3

A. No, sir.

4

Q. Do you know whether he's a member of any

5

6

Exhibit 1250.

2

technical committee?

03:10:46

03:10:50

6

A. Not off the top of my head.

7

Q. Do you know what the annotations in

8

handwriting various places in the form

03:04:45

9

indicate? There's a checkmark in several

03:04:47

10

different places. There's some asterisks,

03:04:36

A. If we look at some of the forms you've

03:10:41

03:10:46

03:10:55
03:10:56
03:11:05
03:11:14

10

submitted to me, some of them had the title.

11

The title was different, said form for the X

11

there's a pound sign A, pound sign B, pound

12

edition of the National Electrical Code, and

03:04:51

12

sign C.

13

so we didn't prohibit you from using any

03:04:53

13

MR. REHN: Is that the question?

14

standard form.

14

MR. BRIDGES: Yes.

15
16
17
18

03:04:57

(Exhibit 1248 marked for
identification.)
(Pause)

03:04:49

03:05:30

15

03:06:03

16

03:06:05

03:11:21

03:11:46
03:11:48

MR. REHN: Objection that it's
compound.

03:11:49

03:11:50

17

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1248 as a form for

03:06:05

A. So let me first answer the first part and we

18

can follow up if we need to. Each change

19

that came in was processed, again, by

19

proposal that NFPA has maintained in the

20

ordinary course of business as part of its

03:06:47

20

full-time staff to verify signatures and

21

standards development process?

03:06:50

21
22

material, there's supporting material which

24

has an attached CSB report.

03:12:00

the first page under Proposals, not original

23

03:11:57

copyright concerns. And if you notice on

22
23
24
25

03:06:44

03:11:32

03:11:36

A. Yes, Exhibit 1248 does look typical.

03:06:53

(Exhibit 1249 marked for
identification.)

03:07:33
03:07:41

25
03:07:41
Page 146

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1249 as a form for

1

proposal that NFPA has maintained in the

2

ordinary course of business in its standards

3

development process?

03:12:03
03:12:06
03:12:09
03:12:11
03:12:15

03:12:16

And it appears that someone wrote

03:12:26
Page 148

03:08:04

4

A. Yes, Exhibit 1249 does look typical.

5

Q. And some persons might suggest proposals with 03:08:21

03:08:13

1

down that it was not being submitted as

2

change but as supporting material to support

3

03:07:53
03:07:58

03:12:29

a change.

4

Q. Go ahead.

5

A. The checkmarks, each of these changes had to

03:12:31

03:12:35
03:12:41
03:12:42

6

attachments where they can't fit the text of

03:08:27

6

be keyed manually by the staff who verified

7

the proposal in the lines on the form. And

03:08:33

7

all the text, editorial and production staff, 03:12:47

8

and oftentimes they would check the forms as

03:12:51

9

they worked through them to ensure they had

03:12:53

8

this exhibit reflects an attachment on the

9

reverse page of Exhibit 1249; is that

10

correct?

03:08:36
03:08:42

10

03:08:45

captured everything. That -- in this case it 03:12:55

11

A. Based upon my review of the statement of

11

would be speculation on my part that that's

12

Item 4 and the proposed text on the back, it

03:09:02

12

what those checkmarks are there for.

13

appears to be consistent that the two pages

03:09:06

13

14

were copied correctly.

15
16
17

03:08:47

14

03:09:08

(Exhibit 1250 marked for
identification.)

15

03:09:26

(Exhibit 1251 marked for
identification.)

Q. I've handed you Exhibit 1250. Do you

03:09:46

03:13:22

Q. Does Exhibit -- strike that.

16

03:09:41

03:13:30

Do you recognize 1251 as a document

that NFPA maintains in the ordinary course of 03:13:49

recognize this as a form for proposals that

18

business in the standards development

NFPA has maintained in the ordinary course of 03:10:09

19

process?

20

business in its standards development

20

21

process?

23

03:10:13

21

03:10:17

A. (Witness examines document) Based upon my
review, it appears that this is typical.

24

Q. So that's a yes?

25

A. That's a yes. It appears to be typical,

03:10:18

22
23

03:10:33

24

03:10:36

03:13:52

03:13:53

A. Exhibit 1251 does look typical for a proposal 03:13:54
form.

03:13:58

Q. So the answer is yes?

03:13:59

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
A. Yes, Exhibit 1251 does look typical.

25

03:10:37

03:13:46

17

19

03:10:01

03:12:57
03:12:59

03:13:30

18

22

03:12:45

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03:14:01
03:14:05

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2
3

(Exhibit 1252 marked for

03:14:30

identification.)

2

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1252 as a document

4

that NFPA has maintained in the ordinary

5

course of business in its standards

6

development process?

7
8
9
10
11

03:14:44

03:15:00
03:15:02

03:15:05

form.

03:15:14
03:15:45

Q. So I guess if I asked if you recognized 1252

13

the ordinary course of business in its

14
15

was Exhibit 1252 does look typical for a

16

proposal form. So is the answer yes?

20

portion of a record.

Q. At the time of this document, September 15,

03:23:07

14

1997, he was not president of NFPA, correct?

03:23:11

15

03:22:55

A. That is correct. Jim Pauley was not

03:23:17

A. Based upon this comment form, it appears so.

03:23:30

19

Q. And his comments related to some proposal

03:23:34

20

involving deleted text based on Items 1 and

03:17:25
03:17:25
03:17:39

21
22

03:24:19

this confusion and make it clear as to what

rules apply. So it does appear he's

2

03:18:09

4

5

electronic submission of numerous proposed

03:18:12

5
6

03:18:16
03:18:19
03:18:24

03:18:26
03:18:30

03:24:22
Page 152

commenting on a proposal with deleted text.

excuse me, I recognize Exhibit 1253 as an

A. We maintain all submissions, whether they're

7

03:24:24
03:24:26

VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Bridges, there's
less than one minute remaining.

MR. BRIDGES: Why don't we go off
the record, then.

03:25:30

03:25:32

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:25.

03:25:33

8

This is the end of Tape No. 2, and we are now 03:25:35

9

off the record.

10

(Break taken)

03:25:37
03:25:41

submitted electronically, paper, via fax or

03:18:32

11

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:36.

12

in any other means to keep the record

03:18:35

12

This is the beginning of Tape No. 3. We are

13

together.

13

now back on the record.

16

03:18:36

identification.)

14

03:19:36
03:19:45

identification.)

16

03:36:05
03:36:16

03:36:19

(Exhibit 1256 marked for

15

03:19:45

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1254 as a copy of a

03:25:25

03:25:27

11

(Exhibit 1254 marked for

03:24:04

03:24:17

4

development process, correct?

03:23:55

A. Based upon my reading of Statement No. 4, it
deletion of this text will clear up much of

3

ordinary course of business in its standards

03:23:49

does appear that Mr. Pauley states the

03:18:06

changes by one submitter.

2; is that correct?

03:23:22

1

03:17:56

A. (Witness examines document) I recognize this 03:18:00

Q. Okay. And NFPA maintains these in the

03:23:20

23

25
03:17:55
Page 150

MR. REHN: Objection. Seems to

president at that time.

24

03:17:43

03:17:46

as an electronic submission of numerous --

15

03:23:02

18

03:17:10

3

14

03:22:46

03:22:50

13

03:16:17

(Exhibit 1253 marked for

development process?

9

comment form, so Exhibit 1255 seems to be a

Q. He was employed by Square D Company?

ordinary course of business in its standards

10

03:22:42

17

24

8

03:22:34

A. This appears to be a partial electronic

03:16:13

23

7

ordinary course of business?

03:22:10

03:22:30

16

proposals that NFPA has maintained in the

6

NFPA has maintained in its records in the

A. Jim Pauley is the president and CEO of NFPA.

03:16:06

A. Yes, 1252 does look typical.

misstate the document.

03:22:10

Q. Do you recognize the name Jim Pauley?

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1253 as a form for

2

identification.)

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1255 as a form that

03:16:09

22

1

03:21:44

12

03:16:06

21

25

9
10

03:20:48

(Exhibit 1255 marked for

11

03:15:58

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

identification.)

7

03:20:46

03:15:58

standards development process, your answer

19

5

the ordinary course of business?
A. This appears to be a typical record.

03:15:58

as a document NFPA had maintained in

18

4

8

VIDEOGRAPHER: There are ten minutes 03:15:44
remaining on the videotape.

3

6

A. Exhibit 1252 does look typical for a proposal 03:15:10

12

17

1

03:14:44

03:36:35

BY MR. BRIDGES:

03:36:47
03:36:47

17

Q. Mr. Dubay, do you recognize Exhibit 1256

18

as a group of forms for comments with a

03:37:02

19

transmittal page attached that NFPA has

03:37:08

standards development process of the National 03:20:21

20

maintained in the ordinary course of business 03:37:12

Electrical Code?

21

in the course of its standards development

03:20:29

22

process?

23

Exhibit 1254 is an electronic submission of a 03:20:37

23

24

typical form for proposals.

24

17

form for proposals and a transmittal form

18

that NFPA has maintained in the ordinary

19

course of business in connection with the

20
21
22

25

03:20:07
03:20:13
03:20:17

03:20:29

A. Based upon my review, it appears that

03:20:39

Q. NFPA has maintained it in its records during

25
03:20:39
Page 151

03:36:47

03:37:15

03:37:17

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1256
does appear to be a form of an electronic

03:37:23

03:37:34

submission process with numerous comments on

03:37:38
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the National Electrical Code.

03:37:42

Q. Do you recognize this as a document that

3

NFPA has maintained, given the language at

4

the bottom that says "comments for submittal

5

to NFPA as of 12/23/97" (sic) and with date

6

stamps and numbers written on them?

03:40:43
03:43:31

3

Q. Mr. Dubay, do you recognize Exhibit 1257 as

03:37:54

4

a comment that NFPA has maintained in the

5

ordinary course of its standards development

03:38:02

6

process? I'll note that it's a two-sided

7

document.

03:37:56

for submittal to NFPA as of 10/23/97."

03:38:14

9

MR. BRIDGES: What did I say?

10

MR. REHN: I think you said 12.

11

MR. BRIDGES: Sorry. Correct that.

14

(Exhibit 1257 marked for
identification.)

03:37:48

8

13

2

MR. REHN: I think it says "comments 03:38:12

7

12

1

03:37:43

10/23/97.

03:38:17
03:38:18

a typical submission?

9
10

03:38:22

03:38:36

A. So just to be clear, is the question is this

8

11
12

03:38:36

13

03:38:39

14

03:43:54
03:43:58

03:44:00

03:44:07

A. Exhibit 1257 does look typical for comments
we've received.

03:44:08

03:44:14

Q. And do you recognize this as a document from
NFPA's archives?

03:44:15

03:44:17

A. Yes, it does look familiar, not specifically, 03:44:19
but in general form.

03:44:22

(Exhibit 1258 marked for

03:45:00

15

Q. No. The question is, do you recognize this

16

as a document that NFPA has maintained as

16

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1258 as a comment

17

part of its standards development process?

03:38:46

17

from the NFPA archives that it maintains in

18

A. Yes. It appears to be a typical document

03:38:50

18

the ordinary course of business in connection 03:45:28

19

from our archives.

03:38:40

03:43:31

03:38:42

03:38:52

15

identification.)

03:45:08

19

Q. Do you know who Roger Witt is?

03:38:53

21

A. No, I do not.

22

Q. How did the uses differ between -- as between 03:38:58

03:38:57

23

forms for proposals and forms for comments?

24

You may have touched on it earlier, but I

25

didn't quite understand it.

with its standards development process?

20

A. Yes, this document, Exhibit 1258, looks

21

20

typical and is consistent with the forms.

03:45:08
03:45:19

03:45:28
03:45:33
03:45:35

03:39:19

Q. You understand it to be from NFPA archives?

23

A. Yes, it seems consistent.

24

Q. Are you familiar with Marcelo Hirschler?

25

03:39:14

03:39:16

22

A. Yes.

03:45:40

03:45:44
03:45:59

03:46:32

Page 154
1
2

03:39:23

mean the use of the proposal form and the

5

comment form or how it plays out in our
process?

8
9

on several of our standards as well as an

4

active participant in the NFPA standards

5

development process.

10

03:39:27

03:39:35

6

03:39:35

7

MR. REHN: I'll object to the

8

03:39:37

question as being compound.

A. At a high level, proposals in our old system, 03:39:41
public inputs in our new systems are

recommended changes to the existing edition

13

of a standard. Comments in both the old and

03:40:01

13

14

the new system are public comments on the

03:40:05

14

actions that the committee has taken to
modify that standard.

12

15

03:40:09

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1259 as a collection 03:47:26

Electrical Code?

03:48:15

A. (Witness examines document)

03:48:15

MR. REHN: Object to the question.

technical committee action on that standard;

19

is that correct?

03:48:24

A. Based upon my review just now, it appears to

03:48:50

03:40:28

A. All comments would be related to something

03:40:31

03:40:34

17

all of which have been submitted

18

electronically. And based upon a few

03:48:59

minutes' review here, it does appear that

03:49:03

20

they're all from Mr. Hirschler. It's a mix

21

03:40:16
03:40:25

be a mix of proposals and comments, generally 03:48:53

of materials.

03:48:58

that committee has done. It could be

22

specific to the change or it could be saying

03:40:38

22

Q. Is it your understanding that these -- that

23

you did this here, you should also do it over 03:40:39

23

NFPA maintains these documents in its

24

here.

24

archives of the standards development

25

process?

03:40:43
03:40:43
Page 155

03:49:05

03:49:10

21

Q. Thank you.

03:48:22

It clearly misrepresents the document.

19

Q. So all comments would follow some kind of

18

25

03:47:44
03:47:53

16

03:40:11

17

20

03:47:15
03:47:26

Mr. Hirschler with respect to the National

12

16

(Exhibit 1259 marked for
identification.)

of proposals from NFPA's archives from

11

03:39:59

03:46:43

03:46:46

10
11

03:39:56

03:46:34

03:46:40

9

03:39:39

15

03:46:32

03:39:30

4

Q. Both.

A. He's a -- both a technical committee member

3

A. If you could help me clarify, please, do you

7

Q. Who is he?

03:39:31

3

6

1
2

MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 03:39:21
question as vague.

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03:49:12
03:49:16
03:49:19

03:49:21
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A. Yes, these all appear to be typical from -from the archives.

03:49:23

03:49:26

(Exhibit 1260 marked for

2

03:50:32

identification.)

1
3

03:50:46

4

Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1260 as a collection 03:50:46
03:51:05

5

6

of comments from Jim Pauley that NFPA has

7

maintained in its archives relating to the

03:51:10

7

8

standards development process?

03:51:13

8

6

9

A. Exhibit 1260 appears to be a collection of

03:51:21

9

10

electronically submitted comments from

03:51:27

10

11
12

Jim Pauley, based upon the forms.

03:51:30

Q. Do you know whether he submitted these

13

comments as a member of a technical

14

committee?

03:51:33

15

03:51:35

03:51:38

11
12
13

comments from anyone.

03:55:30

Q. Including proposals and comments relating
to style, correct?

03:55:30

03:55:32

A. We accept proposals and comments and public
inputs relating to any aspect of the

03:55:37

03:55:41

document.

03:55:43

Q. And any aspects, as you've just answered,
includes style, correct?

03:55:44

03:55:46

MR. REHN: Objection. Asked and
answered.

03:55:48

03:55:50

A. We do accept proposals and comments relating
to style manual issues.

03:55:51

03:55:54

Q. Mr. Dubay, the most recent version of the

03:55:55

14

A. He -- what I can say is that he was an active 03:51:42

16

member of the code-making panels which is --

17

03:51:57

or member of the code-making panels of the

03:52:06

National Electrical Code is the 2014 version; 03:58:12

15

is that correct?

16
17

03:58:16

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

03:58:19

A. Yes, the current version of the National

03:58:22

18

National Electric Code as a committee member, 03:52:08

18

19

but I can't speculate what he submitted it

19

Q. Do you know when the first time was that any

20

for or what intention he had.

20

of the language in that code appeared in any
of the earlier versions of the code?

03:52:11

03:52:14

21

Q. I ask you to turn your attention to the page

03:52:32

21

22

that ends with the numbers 110 and 111 at

03:53:03

22

23

the bottom, those two pages.

23

03:53:10

24

A. 110?

03:53:12

24

25

Q. Right. You'll note at the bottom there's a

25
03:53:13
Page 158

1

statement of problem and substantiation for

2

comment. This appears to address compliance

3

with the style manual, it says; is that

4
5

correct?

03:53:26
03:53:30

03:53:41

03:53:53

Electrical Code is the 2014 edition.

03:58:25

03:58:37

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Extremely compound.

03:58:40
03:58:45

A. I would say that our handling of the National 03:58:55
Electrical Code goes back to, I believe, 1896 03:59:03
Page 160

1

or 1898. Without doing analysis, I couldn't

03:59:06

2

tell you what words have remained for the

03:59:11

3

last hundred-plus years, but NFPA's published 03:59:14

4

A. He does note in his statement that the

03:53:53

the National Electrical Code for that period

5

of time.

03:59:17

03:59:20

6

exceptions, I'm assuming the exceptions in

03:53:55

6 Q. Has there been any point where the National

7

the proposal, do not comply with the style

03:53:58

7

Electrical Code was so completely overhauled

8

manual, yes.

8

that NFPA started a new version or a new

9

edition of the code from scratch?

9

03:54:01

Q. So a number of participants and technical

03:54:02

03:59:20
03:59:32
03:59:35

03:59:39

10

committees and code-making panels and even

11

some public commenters may make proposals

12

that relate to the conformance of text to

03:54:23

12 A. Not to my knowledge.

13

the NFPA's style manual, correct?

03:54:32

13 Q. Does NFPA have any way of determining when

03:54:35

14

any particular wording in the code, in the

04:00:18
04:00:24

14
15

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Lacks foundation.

03:54:10

03:58:26

03:58:32

03:54:15

03:54:36

10
11

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 03:59:42
ambiguous.

03:59:46
03:59:55

15

current edition of the code, first appeared

03:54:40

16

in any edition of the code?

03:54:43

17

16

A. NFPA publishes and makes publicly available

17

both our NFPA style manual and our NEC style

18

manual. So in some cases, submissions will

19

come in to address any discrepancies between

03:54:50

19

the style manual and the published document.

03:54:53

20 A. We maintain archives by edition of each

20
21

03:54:47

Q. And those submissions may come in from

03:55:04

22

technical committee members or code-making

23

panel members or the public, correct?

21

03:55:08

04:00:26

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

18 Q. I'm referring to the NEC.

04:00:30
04:00:34

MR. REHN: It's the same objection.

04:00:40
04:00:45
04:00:47

22

original document. Historically, over time

23

the records become better and better, but we

03:55:17

24

have archives all the way back.

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

25

A. NFPA accepts public proposals, public input,

04:00:38

document, and our records go back to the

03:55:11

24

04:00:00

03:55:19
25 Q. Does NEC -- strike that.
Page 159

04:00:52

04:00:55
04:01:01
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Does NFPA at any point index the

04:01:06

1

the Code should contain a particular

04:05:51

04:01:14

2

requirement relating to the installation of

04:05:54

3

arc fault circuit interrupters? Is that your 04:05:57

2

original source of any of the changes that

3

have become incorporated into the code over

4

the course of multiple editions?

5
6
7
8
9

04:01:25

04:01:30

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

4

04:01:35

Vague and ambiguous.

04:01:37

04:01:44

related to Proposal 2-105 and whatever that

7

was trying to accomplish, remove, add. I
don't have that part of the record in front

9

of me.

10

for any particular language, without looking

04:01:52

10

11

through every code, when that language first

04:01:56

11

12

came into some edition of the code.

13
14

12

Q. Mr. Dubay, do you recognize Exhibit 1262 as

13

a comment that NFPA has maintained in its

14

archives as part of its standards development 04:08:19

A. In general, no. At a high level, we keep

04:02:07

track of major technical changes from edition 04:02:11

15

to edition to support our regional field

16

17

team.

04:02:14

04:02:18

17

18

Q. What do you mean by major technical changes?

19

A. For example, when arc fault circuit

04:02:20

04:02:28

20

interruption technology was introduced into

21

the NEC, we put together, changed documents

22

and technical information to support our

25

1
2

04:07:25
04:07:42

04:02:05

16

24

04:06:17

04:06:18

(Exhibit 1262 marked for
identification.)

04:06:08
04:06:13

04:02:00

MR. REHN: Same objections.

15

23

04:06:00

8

04:01:42

Q. Keep track of the -- to be able to identify

interpretation of this?

A. Based upon the form, it is a comment directly 04:06:05

6

A. Clarifying question from my perspective, what 04:01:39
do you mean by index?

5

04:02:31
04:02:34

04:02:38

regional staff around the country.

04:02:40

Q. Is that because they needed to know that

04:02:48

04:02:57

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

19
20

04:03:03

04:08:09

04:08:22

A. Yes, Exhibit 1262 appears to be typical and
something from our archives.
Q. I have a question. What confidential

04:08:40

information is in this document?

04:08:44

MR. REHN: I'll object to the extent 04:09:05
it calls for a legal opinion. The witness

22

can answer, based on his knowledge.

23
24

1

04:08:28

04:08:39

21

25
04:02:50
Page 162

there was a new technical aspect to the code

that had not been there before?

18

process?

04:09:07
04:09:14

A. Based upon my knowledge, all of our proposals 04:09:19
and comments are publicly available when
submitted. So I'm not sure relating to --

04:09:21
04:09:25
Page 164

I'm assuming you're referring to the footer.

2

Q. Yes.

04:09:29

04:09:31

3

A. I have no knowledge of that.

4

major technical changes is to develop

04:03:09

4

Q. Right. Do you see where this submitter

5

training and education materials so that

04:03:11

5

6

users can understand those requirements.

3

7
8

A. The primary reason that we keep track of

(Exhibit 1261 marked for

04:03:06

04:09:31
04:09:32

checked Box B under copyright assignment?

04:09:54

6

A. Yes, in Item 6 I see they selected Item B.

7

04:03:14

04:04:16

identification.)

04:07:42

Q. Does NFPA reject comments and proposals that

8

04:04:22

derive from non-original -- strike that.

04:10:04
04:10:08

04:10:14

04:04:22

9

you recognize this as a comment that NFPA has 04:04:39

10

11

maintained in its archives in connection with 04:04:45

11

did not author the text or other materials in 04:10:26

12

the standards development process?

12

the comments?

9
10

13
14
15

Q. Mr. Dubay, I've handed you Exhibit 1261. Do

04:04:47

A. (Witness examines document) Yes, it appears
that Exhibit 1261 is a typical archived,

04:04:51

04:04:56

looks like a comment on the 2008 NEC.

04:04:58

16

Q. This comment related to some requirement

17

pertaining to arc fault circuit interrupters

18

in the National Electrical Code, correct?

19
20

04:05:04

04:05:15

25

the example you've provided me, Exhibit 1262, 04:10:41

16

Mr. Hammer does not actually provide any

17

proposed changes or text to the document.
Q. Why do you believe there's a reference to
American Petroleum Institute in this

20

document?

submitter, Mr. Walls, says that -- discusses
the installation of arc fault circuit

15

19

22

interrupters.

each and every submission. And in this case, 04:10:38

04:05:30

Lacks foundation. Assumes facts.

04:05:35
04:05:38

21
22

Q. This is a comment about the -- about whether

04:10:44
04:10:46
04:10:52
04:10:59

04:11:04

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It
may call for speculation.

23

A. In my personal opinion, he indicates right
above Line No. 1 that he represents the

25
04:05:45
Page 163

04:11:07

04:11:09

24

04:05:41
04:05:44

04:10:35

14

18

A. My answer is based upon Item 4 where the

24

04:10:33

04:05:22

21

04:10:20

A. No. We have a strict policy of reviewing

04:05:29

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

23

13

Does NFPA reject comments and

proposals from persons who indicate that they 04:10:23

American Petroleum Institute. Therefore, it

04:11:10
04:11:14
04:11:16
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is my assumption that he submitted this on

04:11:20

1

grant and assign to the NFPA all and full

2

behalf of the American Petroleum Institute.

04:11:22

2

rights and copyright in the comment, and NFPA 04:14:24

3

makes the comments publicly available, I
think you said, correct?

3

Q. Does NFPA ask for permission from the

04:11:30

4

American Petroleum Institute to copy and

04:11:37

4

5

circulate comments submitted on its behalf?

04:11:40

5

6

A. We have a policy of reviewing each and every

7

one of these when they're submitted. And in

8

the event there was copyrighted material

04:11:53

04:11:56
04:11:59

04:14:29

04:14:33

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

04:14:34

A. NFPA, in the old process, makes all of the

04:14:40

7

proposals and comments publicly available via 04:14:44

8

the publication of a report on proposals and

9

being distributed, we would, as general

10

practice in our policies, contact to seek

04:12:04

10

11

permission before distributing that.

04:12:05

11

04:12:08

12

assignment of copyrights in the comment

13

itself?

04:14:47

language at the bottom to be a grant and

12

04:12:01

6

04:14:22

And, again, to support my past

13

statement, there doesn't appear to be any

14

proposed text.

15
16
17

9

04:12:11

04:12:13

14

Q. Well, what -- there's a reference here, isn't 04:12:15
there, to copyright in this comment?

04:12:21

MR. REHN: Object to the question,

18

to the form of the question.

19

Mischaracterizes the document.

15
16

04:12:29

04:12:33

17
18

04:12:34

19

20

Q. It says, "I hereby grant and assign to the

04:12:36

20

21

NFPA all and full rights and copyright in

04:12:39

21

22

this comment." Isn't that what it says?

23

04:12:41

22

forms, when someone submits specific text

25

changes, we require the signature.

04:14:50
04:15:14
04:15:22
04:15:25

04:15:28

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
language speaks for itself.

04:15:29

04:15:31

Q. I'm just asking what you understand as the

04:15:33

person in charge of the standards development 04:15:35
process at NFPA.

04:15:37

A. My understanding --

04:15:39

MR. REHN: Object to the form of
that question as well.

04:15:40

04:15:41

A. My understanding is that the forms require a

04:13:02

04:13:05

23

signature, one, for archives and; two, to

04:15:45

24

address the intellectual property rights

04:15:48

associated with changes in the text within

04:15:50
Page 168

Page 166
1

In this case it appears the

1

04:13:09

our document.

04:15:52

2

Q. That's your interpretation of the italicized

has just recommended that a proposal from the 04:13:20

3

language above the signature on this page?

4

ROP portion of our cycle be accepted with no

4

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

5

proposed text.

2

Exhibit 1262 that you've chosen, Mr. Hammer

3

04:15:42

25

A. Similar to our proposal forms and our comment 04:12:58

24

report on comments.
Q. And this -- you don't understand this

04:13:12
04:13:20

5

04:13:21

6

04:15:58
04:16:00

Mischaracterizes the testimony. Calls for

04:16:01

legal opinion. Document speaks for itself.

04:16:04

6

Q. It doesn't say, "I grant and assign to the

7

NFPA all and full rights and copyright to

04:13:29

7

8

proposed text changes," it says, "I hereby

04:13:30

8

individual word and how it relates, but my

04:16:13

9

grant and assign to the NFPA all and full

04:13:33

9

policy is enforcing that each and every one

04:16:17

rights and copyright in this comment."

04:13:36

10

of these submissions requires the sign-off by 04:16:21

11

the submitter to ensure that it is

12

appropriate for us to move forward with the

13

use of that material.

10
11
12
13
14
15

04:13:24

04:15:54

Does it say anything in there about

04:13:42

copyright and proposed changes?

04:13:44

MR. REHN: Object to the form and

04:13:47

04:16:23
04:16:25

04:16:28

14

opinion.

15

italicized language above the signature on

16

Exhibit 1262?

04:13:52

Q. I'm just asking for your understanding.

17

04:13:54

A. My understanding is they are completely

04:13:56

disconnected. A proposal that recommends

19

a proposal is the choice of the submitter to

21

either recommend text or not.

18

text and a comment that recommends action on

20

17

04:13:57

18

But in either case our policy is

23
24

proposals require a signature.

04:14:01

04:14:04

04:14:07
04:14:09

that any public comments in any public

25

04:16:11

object on the basis that it calls for a legal 04:13:50

16

22

A. I can't specifically comment on each

04:14:11
04:14:14

Q. And it requires a signature saying that you

19
20
21
22
23
24

25
04:14:20
Page 167

Q. And you have no other interpretation of the

04:16:32
04:16:35

04:16:38

MR. REHN: Same objection.
Q. Is that your testimony?

04:16:39
04:16:40

MR. REHN: Same objections, and

04:16:41

asked and answered at this point as well.
A. I have no other interpretation.
(Exhibit 1263 marked for
identification.)

04:16:44
04:16:47

04:17:46
04:18:15

Q. Mr. Dubay, what is Exhibit 1263?
A. Exhibit 1263 appears to be a comment from

04:18:15
04:18:33
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Mr. Skweres on the 2014 National Electrical

2

Code.

3

04:18:38

Q. Is it your understanding that the material

04:18:53

4

inside the box under Item 4 is proposed new

5

wording?

04:19:10

04:19:16

A. Based upon my review, it's difficult to tell

7

without seeing the proposal of record being

8

2-132, because the submitter did not use

04:19:30
04:19:33
04:19:36

9

legislative text. So a portion of that may
or may not have been included already in

11

Proposal 2-132.

12

in her comment. Is that your interpretation
of it?

3
4

04:23:56

04:23:59
MR. REHN: Object to the form.

04:24:02

A. My interpretation when I read Item 5 is I see 04:24:03

5

6

10

1
2

04:18:53

04:19:40

04:24:07

it's subsequent to the UL guide information.

04:24:11

7
8
9

04:19:43

Q. She provided those references as

04:24:16

substantiation for the comment that she makes 04:24:22
above in Section 4, correct?

04:24:26

04:19:48

10

A. Based upon her submission, it does appear

11

04:19:45

Q. Legislative text in that context means a

direct references to the UL guidebook and

6

that the UL materials, only indicated in her

12

statement of the problem, were

04:24:34
04:24:36

04:24:39

13

format for determining what has been added or 04:19:51

13

14

deleted; is that correct?

14

Q. Do you know whether anyone at NFPA has

15

checked the references to the UL white book

16

and UL guide information to determine whether 04:24:57

17

any of the language in the comment has come

15

04:19:54

A. Yes, in general, strike through where you're

16

deleting text and underline where you're

17

adding text.

04:19:58
04:20:01

04:20:03

substantiation.

04:24:40
04:24:51
04:24:54
04:25:00

18

Q. But it's not legislative text that one might

04:20:03

18

19

see from a legislature that says things like

04:20:06

19

20

"be it resolved" or fancy language of the

04:20:08

20

comment, but our policy is that, in this case 04:25:15

21

legislature? That's not what legislative

04:20:14

21

where Item B has been selected, our staff

22

language means in this text, correct?

04:20:16

22

would have contacted the submitter to get a

04:20:17

23

clear picture of what the intent was and what 04:25:24

24

they were submitting to be considered in

25

front of the committee, especially since it

23
24
25

MR. REHN: Object to form.

A. It's legislative format as we give an example 04:20:19
under Item 4.

04:20:20

from one of those sources?

04:25:02

A. I can't speak specifically to this one

04:25:13
04:25:18
04:25:21
04:25:27
04:25:31

Page 170
1
2
3

Q. There's a box that says "new text" that's
been checked on this, correct?

04:20:23

1
2

04:20:31

A. Based upon my review Line Item 3, yes, the

Page 172

04:20:36

3

appears that Ms. Dwyer or Mr. Dryer works for 04:25:33
Wells Fargo and not UL.

04:25:38

Q. Does NFPA frequently get copyright permission 04:25:44

4

box for new text has been checked.

4

from other organizations for the text that it 04:25:48

5

Q. Does the text in the box under Item 4,

04:20:41

5

incorporates in the National Electrical Code? 04:25:51

conform to NFPA's manual of style?

04:20:45

6

A. I can say in general it appears that it does. 04:21:01

7

the extent the question calls for legal

8

opinion.

6
7
8
9

04:20:39

However, I would rely, because it's a

04:21:04

National Electrical Code, on our editorial

04:21:05

11

permission from other organizations for the

04:22:02

12

text that it incorporates in the National

13

Electrical Code?

if it's completely compliant.
(Exhibit 1264 marked for

04:21:09

04:22:27

14

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1264.

15

A. Exhibit 1264 appears to be an archival of a

16
17
18
19
20
21
22

04:22:27
04:22:47

comment on the 2014 National Electrical Code. 04:22:56
Q. Do you see on Page 2 of the exhibit Option B

04:23:03

A. I do see Item 6, Copyright Assignment B has

04:26:08

MR. REHN: Again, I'll object to

04:26:08

15

the form of the question and also object to

16

the extent it calls for legal opinion.

17

04:26:02

04:26:05

04:26:09

04:26:11

A. I just need a clarification, please. Are you 04:26:14

04:23:32
04:23:36

04:23:39

23

A. That appears to be the statement.

24

Q. And so that appears to be the source of some

04:23:45

25

of the material that Ms. Dwyer has provided

04:23:46

18

asking me do we get requests from other

04:26:17

19

organizations to use the contents from the

04:26:19

National Electrical Code, or are you asking

04:26:21

21

do we seek permission to use their contents

04:26:23

22

04:23:21

04:23:35

Q. There's a reference to UL white book and UL
guide information?

14

04:26:00

20

has been checked under Copyright Assignment?
been checked.

04:25:58

04:21:12

11

identification.)

Q. Actually, I will withdraw the question.
Does NFPA ever get copyright

team and our actual NEC manual style to see

13

04:25:56

04:25:58

10

10
12

9

MR. REHN: Object to the form and to 04:25:55

in the National Electrical Code?

04:26:26

23

Q. The second.

24

A. I'm not aware of ever having a request to

25
04:23:50
Page 171

04:26:27

include another organization's language

04:26:35
04:26:37
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within the NEC. Specifically, across all of

2

our standards, we either, as a general common 04:26:44

04:26:42

2

3

understanding that and accepted across our

04:26:47

3

4

committees and submitters, that when they

04:26:51

4

material that the people have contributed to

5

propose new text within our process, that it

5

the NFPA standards development process?

6

becomes part of NFPA's intellectual property, 04:26:55

6

MR. REHN: Same objection. Asked

7

it becomes part of our published standards

7

8

and I don't believe I've had that request.

04:26:53
04:26:59
04:27:01

those public records.

04:29:43

Q. So how many times is your best estimate that

and answered as well.

04:29:53
04:29:58
04:30:00

A. I would -- speculation on my part in my

9

04:30:07

tenure, I would say nothing shy of tens of

Q. So even if the language originated with
another organization, it's your statement

11

that it becomes part of the NFPA's

12

intellectual property by being submitted into 04:27:14

12

to owners of copyrighted material that

13

the standards development process?

04:27:18

13

persons have proposed for incorporation in

04:27:20

14

NFPA's codes and standards?

04:27:12

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

10
11

thousands of times.

04:30:11

04:30:14

Q. What records does NFPA have of its contacts

04:30:27

04:30:32

Mischaracterizes the testimony. May call for 04:27:22

15

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

16

a legal opinion. May call for speculation.

16

There's some embedded legal conclusions in

17

these questions. The witness can answer to

04:27:31

04:30:36

17

A. In my personal opinion, I would say no. We

18

would contact an organization as soon as we

19

identified any potential copyright text being 04:27:37

19

20

submitted as well as the submitter, knowing

20

that currently and in recent history, as we

21

that they didn't have the authority to

04:27:42

21

identify those documents, we attach a chain

22

release copyright of said material.

04:27:45

22

of information. It could be an e-mail, a

23

letter correspondence with the originator to

24

say what we can and can't do with that

04:30:38

A. The best way I can answer that question is

04:27:34
04:27:40

23

Q. How often in your tenure at NFPA has NFPA

24

contacted any other organizations regarding

25

potential copyright text that has come into

1

standard?

25
04:28:04
Page 174

the process of developing a particular

2
3
4

04:28:06

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

04:28:26

A. I can't speak to a specific number, but given 04:28:33

4

04:30:43
04:30:49
04:30:52
04:30:55
04:31:01
04:31:03
04:31:06

material. Historically, I cannot speak to

04:31:07
Page 176

going back.

04:31:11

Q. Where does NFPA maintain that chain of events 04:31:16
in its records?

04:31:23

A. We maintain that chain of information, to the 04:31:26

5

best of my knowledge, in our original

04:28:38

6

documentation that's behind each cycle, so

04:31:34

7

our archive information. So, for example, a

04:31:38

references to copyright material or there are 04:28:44

8

public input that had a reference to a

references to selecting the alternative

9

copyrighted report, that report will be part

04:31:47

10

of the record for that individual proposed

04:31:48

6

changes every year and any time there's

7

attached supporting material or there's

8
9

04:28:41
04:28:46

10

copyright statement, it is our policy that

11

each and every one of those submitters be

12

contacted to determine whether NFPA has the

13

authority or not to utilize that material,

14

even in the distribution of our technical
committees.

04:28:50
04:28:52
04:28:54

04:28:58
04:29:01

Q. How many times in your tenure at NFPA has

17

NFPA contacted the sources of that material

18

for permission to include any of that

19

material in NFPA's codes and standards?

04:29:03
04:29:07

04:29:16
04:29:18

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

04:29:26

A. Again, a number is very difficult. To the

11
12

04:29:28
04:29:33

14

record?

16

04:31:55
04:31:56

04:31:58

A. Any material that required permission before
we either posted it to our website,
distributed to our committee or made it

18

publicly available.

04:32:06

04:32:09

19

Q. Where does NFPA maintain the documents

20

relating to the permissions it has received

21

in that process?

22

best of my knowledge, it's our policy that
each and every time we contact that source,

24

especially where it's clearly identifiable

25

25
via copyright statements or statements within 04:29:41
Page 175

23
24

04:32:09
04:32:13

04:32:19

A. Within our revision archive for each edition
of the document.

04:32:01

04:32:03

17

23

04:29:38

04:31:52

Q. When you say "that report," you mean that
copyrighted report would be part of the

22

04:29:35

change.

04:31:32

04:31:44

13
15

04:29:03

16

21

3

the extent he understands.

04:30:40

04:28:35

that we get tens of thousands of proposed

20

1
2

04:28:19

5

15

04:27:48
04:27:56

18

04:30:16

04:30:22

15

04:27:25

04:29:48

04:30:02

8

9

04:27:09

04:29:46

NFPA has contacted the owners of copyrighted

10

14

04:27:05

1

04:32:24

04:32:28

Q. And who maintains the revision archives?
A. Our codes and standards administration

04:32:31
04:32:40
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and of persons submitting proposals and

2 Q. Who, within the codes and standards

04:32:42

2

comments?

3

administration department, is in charge of

04:32:46

3

4

maintaining those records?

1

department.

04:32:42

6

project administrators.
administrators?

04:32:49

5

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Ambiguous.

04:35:38

04:35:39

A. Given our policy of reviewing each and every, 04:35:44

6

04:32:58
04:33:01

9 A. The manager of that group is Patrick Foley.

04:33:02

speaking of the National Electrical Code,

7

5 to 7,000 proposals and comments each cycle

8

04:32:54

7 Q. Who's in charge of the project
8

4

04:32:47

5 A. There's actually a team of people called our

04:35:34

04:35:37

and verifying the copyright requirements

9

within those proposals and comments, I'm not

10 Q. Approximately how many permissions from other 04:33:06

10

11

copyright holders did NFPA obtain for

04:33:09

11

12

material contained in the current edition of

04:33:13

12

any typographical errors in

13

NFPA's National Electrical Code?

04:33:16

13
14

MR. REHN: I'll object to the form

15

again here and some of the embedded legal

16

conclusions. But, again, the witness may

17

answer the question.

04:33:24
04:33:26

Q. By the way, have you ever been made aware of

04:37:20

Have you ever been made aware of any 04:37:24
typographical errors in published editions of 04:37:26

16

the National Electrical Code?

04:37:30

MR. REHN: I believe this is outside 04:37:37

18

the scope of the notice topics, but the

19

any permissions that were required for the

19

witness can answer if he knows as an

20

text within the National Electrical Code

04:33:35

20

individual.

21

other than those normal releases on our

04:33:38

21

22

proposals and comment forms.

04:33:41

22

23 Q. So it's your testimony that within the entire 04:33:42

23

24

National Electrical Code, no text had as its

24

25

source some copyright owner other than

25
04:33:54
Page 178

1

persons who participated in the standards

04:34:04

2

development process or made proposals or

3

comments and signed the copyright language

4

that NFPA furnishes them. Is that your

5

testimony?

6
7
8

04:33:46

04:34:09
04:34:14

04:34:21

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

04:34:21

Mischaracterizes the testimony.

04:34:24

A. To the best of my knowledge, I'm not aware of 04:34:28

3

6
7

04:34:36

organizations, just text that comes from

16
17

A. We post those on our doc info pages as well

Code.

04:38:05

04:38:09
04:38:12

04:38:16

Q. What, if anything, does NFPA do to notify

04:38:16

earlier purchasers of its codes and standards 04:38:22
about the existence of the errata?

11
12

04:38:27

MR. REHN: Same objection as to
scope.

04:38:33

04:38:34

A. We have two mechanisms of notifying. Number

04:38:39

04:34:46

04:34:48

A. I'm not aware of any text in the current

04:34:55

one is through our website where we post
information on our doc info pages and every

15

user has the ability to sign up for an "alert 04:38:49

16

04:34:44

13
14

04:34:42

MR. REHN: Again, object to the
form. It's vague.

04:34:38

04:38:00

04:38:04

8
9

copyright held by another organization.

04:37:59
Page 180

production run of the National Electrical

10

Q. I'm not asking about copyright held by other

04:37:54

MR. REHN: Same objection as to the

as integrate those erratas into the next

04:34:30

15

04:37:51

4

04:34:33

another copyright owner.

those cases, publish erratas.

04:37:49

Q. Where does the NFPA publish the errata?

you have an understanding.

National Electrical Code that is -- has its

14

we do make publication errors and we, in

scope of the topics, but you can answer if

any text within the current edition of the

13

A. I'm aware at times when we publish documents, 04:37:46

2

9

12

04:37:41

04:37:43

1

10
11

04:37:39

5

04:34:18

04:36:15

04:37:19

18 A. To the best of my knowledge, I'm not aware of 04:33:30
04:33:32

04:35:56

04:35:58

15
17

04:33:29

04:35:50

04:35:53

published comments -- strike that.

04:33:23

14

aware of any.

04:35:48

04:38:42

me" which gives them an automatic notice of

17

changes relating to whatever document they've 04:38:54
signed up on.

04:38:45
04:38:52

18

edition of the National Electrical Code where 04:34:57

18

19

the copyright is held by anyone but the

04:35:00

19

National Fire Protection Association.

04:35:06

20

document, part of the invoice includes

04:39:00

21

notices of where to do that, to sign up for

04:39:02

22

those alerts as well as other information on

04:39:05

23

those documents, where to obtain that

04:39:09

24

material.

20
21

Q. Are you aware of any text in the National

04:35:07

22

Electrical Code that has come from any

23

ultimate source other than someone who has

24

signed the copyright documentation that NFPA

25

requires of the technical committee members

04:35:10
04:35:17
04:35:25

25
04:35:30
Page 179

04:38:56

And each and every purchase of a

04:38:57

04:39:12

Q. Why do you notify people of the errata?

04:39:14
Page 181

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MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 04:39:18

2

question.

3

Q. Strike that.

4
5

Why does NFPA notify persons about
the errata in its codes and standards?

04:39:21

there are typographical errors which we do
issue erratas to correct them as soon as

3

04:39:20

1
2

04:39:20

we're aware of them.

04:41:53
04:41:56

04:41:59

4

Q. Have you become aware of any errata in the

5

04:39:24

postings of NFPA's standards that have been

6

MR. REHN: I'll object to the form

04:39:27

6

incorporated into law by the defendant in

7

of the question and again, I'll object as to

04:39:28

7

this case?

8

the scope is outside the scope of the notice

9
10

04:39:32

topics. The witness can answer if he knows.
A. I believe it relates to our same decision

11

around providing free access to all of our

12

codes and standard.

13

04:39:34

04:42:00
04:42:04
04:42:09

04:42:13

8

MR. REHN: Objection as to the

04:42:14

9

questioning outside the scope of any topics

04:42:17

04:39:36

10

for which this witness was referred, for

04:39:43

11

which this witness was designated. But the

12

witness may answer if he knows the answer.

04:39:45

We want anyone who's impacted by our 04:39:46

04:42:19

A. No, not specifically.

14

Q. I think I misspoke, so I'm going to re-ask

04:42:24

04:42:27

14

codes and standards to be aware of the

15

requirements and be able to understand them.

16

And in the event of an errata, we want to

04:39:55

16

17

make sure they are aware of that as well.

04:39:58

17

in the postings of NFPA's standards that have 04:42:39

18

been incorporated into law by the defendant

19

in this case?

18
19

in the National Electrical Code?

23

20

04:42:33

04:42:35

Have you become aware of any errors

04:42:37
04:42:43

04:42:45

MR. REHN: Same objection as to the

04:42:46

21

scope of this topic. There's also some

04:42:47

22

embedded legal conclusions in this

04:42:50

23

connection. The witness may answer if he

24

knows.

04:40:07

MR. REHN: Same objection.

04:40:10

04:40:11

25
Page 182

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2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

the question a little differently.

04:40:05

Q. Do you have an estimate?
A. No.

04:40:04

15

04:40:07

A. No.

24

04:39:58

04:40:01

MR. REHN: Same objection as to
scope.

22

25

04:39:51

Q. Do you know how many errata there have been

20
21

04:39:48

13

04:42:22

Q. Is it a number that is important to you?
04:40:12
1
MR. REHN: Same objection as to
04:40:19
2
scope. Argumentative. Vague.
04:40:20
3
A. No, the number is not important.
04:40:32
4
Q. Have there been errors in NFPA's -- strike
04:40:34 5
that.
04:40:43
6
Have there been typographical errors 04:40:44
7
in NFPA's other codes and standards, apart
04:40:47 8
from the National Electrical Code?
04:40:55
9
MR. REHN: Same objection as to the 04:40:57 10
scope of the topics. Witness can answer.
04:41:00 11
A. The same answer applies.
04:41:04
12
Q. As to my earlier questions about the National 04:41:11 13
Electrical Code?
04:41:16
14
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
04:41:16 15
It's ambiguous.
04:41:19
16
A. Yes, the errata process applies to all of our 04:41:21 17
standards.
04:41:25
18
Q. And there have been errata in other standards 04:41:31 19
of -- strike that.
04:41:35
20
And there have been typographical
04:41:37
21
errors in NFPA's other codes and standards? 04:41:38 22
MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
04:41:41 23
Compound.
04:41:43
24
A. Through our publication process, at times
04:41:50 25

04:42:52

04:42:54

A. To the best of my knowledge, I believe we did 04:42:54
Page 184
issue an errata relating to the 2014 edition
of the NEC.

04:42:56

04:43:00

Q. Actually, I'm asking a different question and 04:43:04
that is, focusing on the defendant's postings 04:43:10
in this case, are you aware of any errors in

04:43:14

the documents -- strike that. I'll withdraw

04:43:23

the question.

04:43:35

(Exhibit 1265 marked for
identification.)

04:43:35
04:44:05

Q. Mr. Dubay, can you please identify
Exhibit 1265.

04:44:05

04:44:17

A. Exhibit 1265 appears to be a public comment
on the 2014 National Electrical Code.

04:44:19

04:44:29

Q. This comment included some proposed new text; 04:44:32
is that correct?

04:44:38

A. Based upon Mr. Baclawski's comments and his
indication of the new text check box on

04:44:41

04:44:51

No. 3, it appears that he's applying some new 04:44:53
text to his recommendation.
(Exhibit 1266 marked for
identification.)

04:44:56
04:47:03
04:47:14

Q. Mr. Dubay, I ask you to look at Exhibit 1266. 04:47:14
Can you please identify it.

04:47:34

A. Exhibit 1266 appears to be a public comment
from our archives.

Page 183

04:47:39

04:47:44
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Q. Do you see the proposed new text in the
comment in Box 4?

04:47:49

A. Assuming the underlying text is new text,
then yes.

04:48:23

04:48:31
04:48:40

A. I'm assuming that it's the Independent

04:48:45

Electrical Contractors Association.

04:48:48

9

Q. Do you see where it says, "Please indicate
organization represented, if any," it says
"IEC"?

04:48:59
04:49:03

Q. What information does NFPA have about

17

04:49:08

that was an actual additional attachment or
attachment. That's to the best of my

7

knowledge from looking at this exhibit you've 04:54:51

8

handed me.

9
10

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May

04:49:17

04:49:21

15

knowledge personally, but I believe he's also 04:49:27

18

a panel member, committee member of the

04:49:29

19

20

National Electrical Code. So we would have

04:49:32

20

23
24

04:49:35

A. In my opinion, I don't view this as a

04:55:16

comment. My opinion is that it was to

04:55:22

before me.

04:55:30

Q. Do you know whether the Life Safety Code
incorporates any text that the American
Forest & Paper Association proposed?

04:55:44

A. Based upon my first-hand knowledge, I can't
answer that.

04:49:40
04:49:43

Q. How would one determine that fact?

04:55:58

22

Electrical Contractors a member of NFPA?

A. You would have to review the record,

04:56:07

23

determine what was submitted by the American

24

Forest & Paper Association, what material was 04:56:13

25
04:49:51
Page 186

copyrighted by them and then ultimately

A. We do not have organizational members of our

1

technical committees. They may represent an

1

organization, but the individual itself holds 04:49:55

2

throughout our entire standards process.

3

the seat.

3

5

identification.)

04:49:53

04:49:57

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1267.

7

A. (Witness examines document) You want me to

9
10

identify both sides?
Q. Yes, please.

04:52:50
04:53:06

A. Side 1, I guess it's Log No. 607, it appears

the standard, and we'd go back through our
archives and produce a history of that

04:53:29

12

13

seeing attached agreement. On Side 2, being

04:53:32

13

14

Page 608, appears to be a substitute

17

Association and our associate general

18

counsel, Dennis Berry.

04:53:41
04:53:49

04:53:51

specific portion of the document.

04:56:47

Q. Has NFPA ever produced such a history during
proposals or comments?

11

proposals with a signature and some notes on

04:53:45

04:56:43

your tenure regarding any person or entity's

to be a form for comments on NFPA's report on 04:53:24

agreement on copyright language material

04:56:31

04:56:45

10

12

04:53:35

04:56:26

04:56:30

7
9

04:53:17

between the American Forest & Paper

would you determine it?

6

11

16

04:56:24

Q. If someone asked you to determine that, how
A. We would review the concern on the text of

8

04:53:14
04:53:16

15

04:56:21

5

04:52:36

6
8

4

04:52:35

04:56:10

04:56:18
Page 188

accept it and integrate into the standard

2

(Exhibit 1267 marked for

04:55:53

04:55:57

25

4

04:55:31
04:55:37

21

04:49:37

Q. Is he a member or is the Independent

04:55:03

04:55:25

19

an application on file if that is the case,

04:54:57

Exhibit 1267 to be a comment?

04:55:28

18

if I remember correctly.

Q. Well, do you consider the reverse of

communicate this agreement. Again, that is

17

22

04:54:56

my opinion, based upon the records I have

04:49:23

21

04:54:46
04:54:49

13

16

A. To my knowledge, I don't have specific

04:54:43

14

04:49:13

call for speculation.

04:54:37

04:54:37

the item was just to communicate this one

12

Mr. Hittinger's role in IEC?

04:54:29

5

11

13

16

to be 2 of 2, so I'm not sure what -- if

04:49:05

A. Yes.

15

3

04:49:08

12
14

pages. On the second page, the page appears

6

04:48:32

10
11

note that it appears this fax was only two

4

Q. Do you know what the IEC of Greater
Cincinnati is?

1
2

04:48:18

14

04:57:03

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Vague.

04:57:05

04:57:06

A. No. I want to make sure I answer completely

15

accurate on that. I was assuming that you

16

were referring -- with reference to

17

copyrighted material, therefore, my answer

18

was no.

04:57:08

04:57:33
04:57:36
04:57:37

04:57:41

Q. Unfortunately, I don't think we received in

04:53:56

19

20

the document production the attachments to

04:53:58

20

you're referring to as copyrighted material,

21

this that are referred to in Items 4 and 5

04:54:01

21

has NFPA ever produced such a history during

22

on the front page, but it does indicate in

04:54:04

22

your tenure regarding proposals or comments

23

Item 3 that there was a recommendation of

23

from any person or entity?

24

new text. Do you see that?

19

25

04:54:07

04:54:08

24

25
A. I do see what you're referring to, but I also 04:54:19
Page 187

04:56:51

04:56:57

Q. Even regarding any text other than what

04:57:46
04:57:52
04:57:55
04:57:58

04:58:00

MR. REHN: Same objection.

04:58:02

A. Sometimes NFPA gets requests to produce a

04:58:04
Page 189

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history of a section so that the user,

1

Mr. Williams signed the copyright assignment

2

whoever is requesting that, can understand

04:58:09

2

at the bottom, he owned the copyright in the

3

why technical changes were made to the

04:58:11

3

word "separate"?

4

document and the reasoning or substantiation

04:58:13

4

5

behind them. Often our library produces that 04:58:16

5

question. It may call for speculation.

05:02:41

6

function for us.

6

Appears to call for a legal opinion.

05:02:43

7
9
11
12

04:58:20

Q. From whom do those types of requests come?

8
10

04:58:06

MR. REHN: I think we've now, we've

04:58:21

04:58:27

and have been deleted by the proposal. He
could be proposing to put it back in as one

11

example.

he can answer.

04:58:34
04:58:35

12

04:58:38

13

Q. Approximately how many times has NFPA

16

provided persons with those types of

17

histories during your tenure?

18

04:58:41
04:58:45

04:58:48

MR. REHN: The transcript says as

20

consumers?

21
23

the length of time.

04:59:13

Q. What's your best estimate?

4

A. I'd say again, completely speculating,

6

4

04:59:30

NFPA, on the order of hundreds.

5

the notice topics.

13
14

identification.)

04:59:41
05:00:46

05:01:17

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1268

05:01:19

appears to be a public comment from our
archives in the National Electrical Code.

05:01:28

Q. And this comment proposes the -- apparently

18

proposes the addition of one word, the word

19

"separate;" is that correct?

Page 192
Q. Is it your understanding that this comment

05:05:10

was suggesting the revision of text by adding 05:05:13
"copper" and then the other phrase?

05:05:18

A. Assuming that he copied the remaining text
correctly, then yes, it appears that he's
adding those words.

05:05:24

05:05:28
05:05:34

8

form under Point 5, "statement of problem"
and "substantiation for comment" with
language in the parentheses after that?

05:05:54
05:05:58

A. No, I do not.

Q. Was that language in the forms for comments
and forms for proposals of NFPA when you

14

arrived?

15
17

proposal or a proposed change to the NEC and

23

add the word "separate" to some -- in some

24

portion of that text.

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
documents speak for themselves.

21

05:02:14

A. Without researching all the way back to 1995, 05:06:22

22

Q. So this or something similar to this was in
it when you arrived at NFPA?

05:02:23

05:06:29

05:06:31

A. NFPA has always, as far as I can recall,

23

required a statement of problem or
comments.

05:06:33

substantiation for any of the proposals or

25

05:02:20

05:06:26

05:06:27

24

05:02:17

05:06:16

05:06:18

similar.

20

05:06:06
05:06:10

05:06:15

to the best of my knowledge, it seems

05:01:58

22

05:06:05

18

05:02:10

comments, it appears that he wants to make a

05:05:34
05:05:51

12

19

05:01:51

A. Based upon my review of Mr. Williams'

Q. Is it your understanding that until

05:01:39
05:01:44

21

25

05:05:08

Q. Do you know who crafted the language in the

16

05:01:31

17

20

with the National Electrical Code.

13

05:01:01

16

05:04:58

11

05:01:01

15

I think that's "AGW;" is that correct?

A. To your latter point, AGW would be consistent 05:05:05

10

04:59:38

Q. Mr. Dubay, can you please identify
Exhibit 1268.

05:04:43
05:04:45

9

line of questioning is beyond the scope of

9

Q. Do you understand this comment to be

7

04:59:37

8

12

6

04:59:34

MR. REHN: I'll note again, this

(Exhibit 1268 marked for

1

04:59:28

thinking across our library in my tenure at

05:04:38

05:04:41

"copper" and the words "not smaller than 12," 05:04:52

3

04:59:17

5

05:04:23

05:04:28

proposing revision of text to add the word

2

04:59:15

3

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1269

21

25
04:59:11
Page 190

because of the breadth of our standards and

05:04:19

05:04:21

from our archives.

24

2

Exhibit 1269.

proposals from the National Electrical Code

23

04:59:05

04:59:06

1

05:04:19

22

04:59:03

A. Again, I couldn't speculate on a number

identification.)

Q. Mr. Dubay, can you please identify

appears to be a comment on a report on

20
04:59:01

MR. REHN: I just wanted to clarify
that.

05:03:48

19

04:58:59

THE WITNESS: Media requests and

05:03:03

(Exhibit 1269 marked for

18

04:58:59

consumer requests.

15

05:02:57
05:03:00

17

04:58:57

well as -- did you say as media and

14
16

04:58:52

19

11

05:02:49
05:02:55

9

15

10

could have appeared in the current edition

10

jurisdiction as well as media and consumers.

7

A. There's many possibilities here. "Separate"

8

04:58:32

14

25

7

04:58:29

users of our standards, authorities having

24

MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 05:02:39

topics, but if the witness knows the answer,

13

22

05:02:36

moved outside of the scope of the notice

A. I've personally received requests from

05:02:26
05:02:30

Page 191

05:06:37
05:06:39

05:06:42
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Q. What is meant on this form by "statement of
problem"?

05:06:43

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:06:51

A. In my opinion, it's what is the submitter
hoping to solve.

05:06:55
05:07:03
05:07:07

A. NFPA's regulations governing committee

05:07:09

projects require that each and every proposal 05:07:18
and comment or public input into the system

11

be responded to in technical aspects.

12

And so this is important for the

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1270

4

05:07:20

7
8
9

12

05:07:27
05:07:29

if it's tied to the Consumer Product Safety

15

proper response to that public comment or

05:07:33

15

05:07:35
05:07:46

A. NFPA does not require a specific set of

05:11:39

that.

It is up to the submitter to determine what

22

Do you recall ever seeing a form

17

like this for where the submitter has struck

05:12:10

the copyright assignment language?

05:12:18

18

05:12:09

05:07:58

is warranted for their recommendation or

20

you showed me from the American Forest

21

Products Association.

05:08:01

A. The only time I recall was a previous exhibit 05:12:30
05:12:35

05:12:36

05:08:05
05:08:10

22

Q. Do you recall ever seeing this form before?

23

05:08:03

A. No, I do not.

24

Q. Do you recall ever seeing a statement by a

24

Q. NFPA suggests three possible bases for

25

substantiation for comment on this form,

25
05:08:23
Page 194

1

namely, copies of tests, research papers and

05:08:27

2

fire experience, correct?

1
2

05:08:31

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:11:42

05:12:08

19

requirements for substantiation or problem.

21

4

Commission.

05:11:34
05:11:36

Q. Have you ever in your recollection -- strike

05:07:52

20

3

05:11:25

16

Q. And what substantiation does NFPA require for 05:07:41

their proposed change.

13

05:11:21

05:11:25

A. I do recognize his name, but I'm not certain

14

23

agree with that.

11

05:07:23

comments or proposals?

05:11:21

Q. Do you know who Doug Lee is?

05:07:30

19

that correct?

05:11:11
05:11:14

A. Based upon what he's indicated here, I would

10

intending and why so they can provide a

18

05:11:09

U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission; is

14

public input.

on the report on proposals.

05:11:07

6

committee to understand what the person was

17

05:10:58

appears to be an archival copy of a comment

Q. And the comment was from an employee of the

13

16

05:10:44

5

Q. Why is that a requirement on forms for

10

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1270.

3

05:06:58

comments and forms for proposals?

1
2

05:06:47

3

05:08:35

A. NFPA provides a few examples there, but in my 05:08:38

4

05:12:43
05:12:48

federal employee like the one at the top of

05:12:54
Page 196

the second page of Exhibit 1270?

05:12:59

A. No, I do not. This is the first time I've
seen this.

05:12:39

05:13:05

05:13:07

Q. Have you ever been aware that works created

05:13:08

05:08:43

5

by U.S. government employees in the course of 05:13:25

6

individual will utilize to substantiate their 05:08:47

6

their employment are not subject to

7

proposed changes.

7

copyright?

5

8
9

experience, the list is endless of what an

05:08:50

Q. What are some other common sources of

05:08:51

substantiation for proposed changes?

10

A. One example you mentioned, the style manual.

11

Another example could be a specific incident

12

that occurred in a jurisdiction or somewhere. 05:09:09

13

Q. What others come to mind?

14
15

economic savings.

05:09:19

19

document. The standard may have made a

20

change in one cycle in one area, and they're

21

realizing that they need to make a

22

substantive initial change to be consistent

23

across the requirements.
identification.)

14

that.

05:13:40
05:13:43

05:13:47

Q. What is that anecdotal knowledge?

05:13:47

MR. REHN: Same objection. Calls
for a legal opinion.

05:13:50

05:13:53

17

05:09:54

05:09:55
05:10:28

19

with general knowledge that I have, that my

20

team is required to verify copyright and
copyright permissions associated with any
material from the federal government or

employees of the federal government just like 05:14:14

24

05:09:50

05:09:52

available and there are policies that, even

23

05:09:48

A. My knowledge is that it may or may not be

22

05:09:46

18

21

05:09:40

top of my head is consistency across the

25

federally produced materials and things like

16

A. I think the last one I can think of off the

A. Based upon my experience, I guess I would say 05:13:36
anecdotal knowledge around copyright of

15

18

05:13:30
05:13:31

12

05:09:27

17

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for a legal opinion.

11

05:09:32

Q. Anything else?

(Exhibit 1270 marked for

10

13

05:09:13

16

24

05:09:00

05:09:04

A. Improvements in overall safety as well as

8
9

05:08:54

05:13:27

05:13:29

we would do with any other material.

25

05:10:44

Q. Is it your understanding that NFPA asserts

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05:14:08
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copyright over contributions to its codes and 05:14:22

1

2

standards that federal government employees

2

3

have made?

4
5
6

05:14:29

05:14:34

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for a legal opinion.

3

05:14:35

05:16:51
05:16:52

A. In my 20 years of experience in working

05:17:00

4

through our committee as a liaison and now

5

05:14:37

as vice president, I've never had a question

05:17:03
05:17:12

05:14:43

6

or a challenge around the copyright from our

05:17:14

7

copyright over the final text of our codes

05:14:45

7

participants or from those who submit public

05:17:17

8

and standards so that text that ends up in

05:14:48

8

input, public comment proposals.

9
10
11
12

A. It's my position that the NFPA asserts

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for a legal opinion. Assumes facts.

the documents is where our copyright remains. 05:14:51
Q. In its entirety?

05:14:55

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for legal opinion.

14

I will say in the standards themselves, what

17

we publish is what we copyright.

05:15:23

05:15:27

A. I have no specific knowledge of how that

22

that the appropriate statements and such are

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

18

A. The question I have is potential discussions

05:17:49

with counsel. Should we spend a minute

05:17:52

05:17:42
05:17:46

05:17:55

Q. No. I'm asking you what knowledge you have

22

as to whether -- I'm asking you whether, to

your knowledge, NFPA has ever sued anybody
for copyright infringement before?
MR. REHN: If you can answer that

05:18:07
Page 200

Q. In other words, a copyright notice in the

4

I've already asserted to the question as
well.

05:16:06

6

05:18:12

05:18:18

A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. NFPA has sued others for copyright

8
9

05:16:09

05:18:08

05:18:20

7

05:16:02

05:16:05

MR. REHN: Same objection. Calls

may do so. Again, I'll assert the objections 05:18:14

5

05:15:54

advice you received from legal counsel, you

3

05:15:57

question without revealing the substance of

2

infringement?

05:18:22
05:18:26

05:18:29

MR. REHN: Same objections. And you 05:18:30

A. If that's the case, but I'm referring to the

05:16:09

10

may answer it to the extent you can answer

11

statement that we put in the front of the

05:16:12

11

without disclosing the substance of advice

12

documents.

12

you received from legal counsel.

14
15

05:16:14

Q. How else do you understand the NFPA obtains
copyright rights in its codes and standards?

05:16:14

05:16:18

compound. Calls for a legal opinion.

17

A. We have a policy for each and every

13
14
15

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 05:16:21

16

05:16:26

member applications and appointment process
to verify that those signatures and those

05:16:36

21

22

rights have been obtained through that

05:16:38

22

Exhibit 1270; is that correct?

05:18:44

infringement?

21

25

specific knowledge.

18

20

process.

05:16:29
05:16:33

19
20

23

05:16:40
05:16:49

05:18:46
05:18:52

05:18:54

MR. REHN: Same objections, and

05:18:55

exactly the same objections as before.

05:18:59

A. I have no first-hand knowledge of any of the
details of that.

Q. Apart from that, are you aware of any

24

copyright lawsuit that NFPA has brought
against anyone before this case?

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05:19:01

05:19:04

25

05:16:42

05:18:38

ICC lawsuit that you mentioned, but I have no 05:18:40

copyright infringement or for trademark

process as well as through our committee

Q. And that includes rights to the material in

A. To the best of my knowledge, relating to the

17

submission into our standards development

24

05:18:34

Q. Do you know whether NFPA sued ICC for

19

05:16:31

05:18:32

05:18:37

16

05:16:23

18

23

05:18:03

05:18:05

10

13

05:17:56

05:18:00

1
05:15:50

05:15:51

Protection Association, 2012.

05:17:40

24

05:15:48

A. For example, copyright National Fire

for a legal opinion.

extent he has knowledge of that question.

25
05:15:46
Page 198

MR. REHN: Same objection to the

publication itself?

pleadings. The witness may answer to the

discussing it or?

05:17:35
05:17:37

23

05:15:34

Q. What statements are you referring to in

extent this calls for legal opinion.

interpretation of legal documents and

16

21

05:15:37

that answer?

the notice topics. It also may call for

20

05:15:32

in the material in the front matter of each

25

think this is outside the scope of any of

14

05:15:29

process happens other than my team ensures

and every standard we publish.

13

05:15:27

21

24

05:17:33

19

05:15:21

23

05:17:32

MR. REHN: Object to the form. I

17

05:15:16

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
conclusion.

05:17:24
05:17:29

15

05:15:05

Vague and ambiguous. Calls for a legal

20

05:15:03

05:15:08

19

infringement before?

12

Q. How does NFPA copyright its standards?

18

NFPA ever sued anybody for copyright

11

05:14:59

05:15:00

A. I'm not sure how to answer that question, so

16

Q. In your 20 years of experience at NFPA, has

10

13
15

9

05:17:20

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Question straightforwardly asks for

05:19:14

2

persons might identify as proposals that they 05:25:16

3

interpretation of legal documents and

05:19:15

3

want to make to the text of the codes or

4

pleadings. It's outside the scope of the

4

standards?

5

notice topics. And to the extent the witness 05:19:21

5

6

has knowledge that would not reveal the

05:19:23

6

7

substance of communications with legal

05:19:26

7

8

counsel, you may answer.

9

MR. REHN: Same objections.

05:19:17

05:19:28

A. I have no knowledge.

do to verify whether Doug Lee had authority

12

to propose text that would go into NFPA's

13

copyrighted code?

14

05:19:39
05:19:55

05:20:02

05:20:11

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:25:20

05:25:28

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for speculation.

05:25:31

05:25:33

A. I would say the most common reason people

05:25:35

use the proposal forms is to propose new

05:25:38

9

Q. What, if anything, did staff members of NFPA

11

05:25:12

8

05:19:29

10

Q. These would be for proposals that various

changes to documents. Sometimes it's to

05:25:40

10

propose major changes, minor changes, but to

11

propose changes to our standards.

12
13

05:20:13

Q. In those contexts, whose idea is it usually

05:25:50

for the individuals to make the proposals?

14

05:25:42

05:25:45
05:25:54

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 05:26:00

15

Mischaracterizes the document. Assumes there 05:20:15

15

16

are legal conclusions embedded in the

05:20:18

16

Q. Much of the time does the individual say,

17

question. It assumes facts not in evidence.

05:20:21

17

I've got an idea, I want to submit that for

05:26:10

18

A. Based upon our policy of verifying each and

05:26:13

05:20:29

ambiguous. Calls for speculation.

05:26:04
05:26:08

18

consideration? Is that how the process

19

every -- and reviewing each and every

05:20:33

19

works, at least in part?

20

submission, it is my assumption that they

05:20:35

20

21

would have contacted Mr. Lee to determine

22

what authority he has or what was

05:20:41

22

individuals submit changes to our process and 05:26:26

23

appropriate. But that's based upon our

05:20:42

23

they realize they're using the document and

24

policy of reviewing each and every one that's 05:20:45

24

they have an idea that they would like to

05:26:36

25

submitted.

25

submit and they can submit it through a

05:26:38
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05:20:37

05:20:48

21

05:26:15

MR. REHN: Same objections.

05:26:17

A. I would say in the vast majority of cases,

05:26:21
05:26:30

Page 202
1
2

(Exhibit 1271 marked for
identification.)

05:23:18

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1271.

05:23:21

4

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1271

5

appears to be three public proposals on the

05:23:39
05:23:55

6

2011 National Electrical Code from the same

7

individual.

9
10
11

05:23:58

05:24:02

proposal in connection with the standards

05:24:07

05:24:15

05:24:23

5

its codes and standards?

6

05:26:58

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Calls for a legal opinion.

05:27:01
05:27:02

8 A. One of the primary roles of NFPA staff is to
9

05:26:46

05:26:51

act as facilitators for the process. And

05:27:07

05:27:13

or people call us and have difficulties with

12

the standard, we advice them that they can

05:27:20

13

also participate in the open process and we

05:27:22

14

are there to guide them and help them to

05:27:25

05:24:39

15

ensure that their voices are heard.

05:24:44

16 Q. If they wish to participate, they can do so

A. I would ask that you clarify "how," please.

14

Q. What's the process that NFPA envisions when

18

of the general public to draft proposals for

11

MR. REHN: Object to form. Question 05:24:24

13

17

4

when we do receive questions on the standards 05:27:15

is ambiguous. May call for speculation.

16

05:26:42

10

12

15

now.

3 Q. To what extent does NFPA commission members

7

Q. Do you know how people use these forms for
development process?

submission of a form or our new online system 05:26:40

2

3

8

1

05:23:21

05:24:25
05:24:32

people use these forms for proposals?
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Question is ambiguous. Compound.

05:24:35

05:24:48

05:27:27

17

by submitting a proposal or a comment. Is

05:24:51

A. That would be an easy mechanism for the

05:27:17

18

that the process?

05:27:29
05:27:31

05:27:35

19

members of the public or whoever wishes to

05:24:55

19 A. To participate, you can submit proposals,

20

submit proposed changes could document

05:24:56

20

comments. You can apply to be on the

05:27:39

21

recommended changes to the documents, the

21

committee meeting. You can attend the

05:27:41

22

reasons for them and ensure that we have a

22

committee meetings themselves as a member

23

copy on record for ANSI process or ANSI

23

of the committee or as a member of the

24

accreditation and to submit to the technical

24

public.

25

committee for review.

05:25:00
05:25:02
05:25:05
05:25:08

05:25:10

25
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05:27:36

05:27:43
05:27:45

05:27:47

VIDEOGRAPHER: There are ten minutes 05:27:54
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remaining on the video.

05:27:54

Q. Do you see the language in italics on the

1

05:27:57

to my earlier representation about that

2

process.

3

bottom of the first page of Exhibit 1271?

05:27:59

3

4

A. Yes, I see the italics at the bottom of the

05:28:04

4

5
6
7
8
9
10

page.

05:28:15

5

Q. What do you understand that sentence to mean? 05:28:15
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Q. The first sentence in the italics at the
MR. REHN: Object to the form.

13

for itself.

9
10

05:28:30

11

05:28:32

A. It appears to be part of the -- a form of our 05:28:38
05:28:49

Q. Do you have any understanding as to what the

17

first sentence of that italicized portion

18

means?

05:29:01

Calls for a legal opinion. Document speaks

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:31:45

Document speaks for itself.
A. My previous answer stands.

14

Q. And can you identify -- have you seen today

21

for itself.

05:31:46
05:31:50

all of the different text variations that

16

NFPA has had in its assignment, in its
copyright forms?

19

05:29:02

05:29:04

05:31:38

05:31:43

12

18

20

20

05:31:53

05:31:58
05:32:04

05:32:12

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:32:14

Documents speak for themselves.

05:32:15

A. Given the magnitude of the number of forms

05:32:18

21

A. No, I do not.

05:29:07

23

Q. This is the form that was used for proposals
for the 2011 National Electrical Code; is

05:29:08

that we get on the order of tens of thousands 05:32:20

22

22

that correct?

there?

17

05:28:51

05:29:01

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

25

Q. How many different versions of the forms are

15

05:28:57

19

24

05:31:31

05:31:33

13

05:28:35

sign-off text provided by legal.

05:31:26

National Electrical Code copies of all the
forms.

05:28:26

05:31:22

that we have provided, for example, 2011

8

Calls for a legal opinion. Document speaks

16

05:31:10

7

05:28:29

12

15

no protective order on this issue.

05:31:09

A. I guess my response is it's my understanding

05:28:23

11

14

MR. BRIDGES: I think there's been

05:28:21

Which sentence are you referring to?
bottom of the page.

6

05:31:06

05:31:08

per year, I'm unable at this time to comment

23

on that.

24

05:29:31

25

05:29:40

05:32:23

05:32:27

(Exhibit 1272 marked for
identification.)

05:33:04
05:33:07

Page 206

Page 208
1

Q. Mr. Dubay, please identify Exhibit 1272.

2

A. What I can say is this is the statement that

05:29:43

2

A. (Witness examines document) This appears to

3

was on this particular version of the form.

05:29:45

3

4

That's the best I can tell you, given that

5

this is what I have in front of me.

1

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:29:40

05:29:48
05:29:50

6

Q. How many versions were there of forms for

7

proposals for the 2011 National Electrical

8

Code?

9
10
11

05:29:57
05:30:06

in its archives in the ordinary course of

7

business?

05:33:52

A. It appears so.

9

Q. What is the reference to ISA in the box

11

05:33:56

under Heading No. 4?

05:33:57

05:34:15

A. ISA, it's my understanding ISA is a standards 05:34:21
organization, and he's referencing a newer
edition of that standard. I don't know the

05:30:16

14

specific acronym of ISA, what it stands for,

05:30:21

15

13

and through multiple platforms. So as we

14

look through the record, the only way to

15

determine that would be to look at each

16

individual proposal.

05:30:10
05:30:12

16

05:30:25

Q. You're not prepared here today on behalf of

05:30:27
05:30:31

17

however.

05:34:46

Exhibit 1272 and the italicized language at

19

the bottom of Exhibit 1271?

one instance of each of the different forms

20

that NFPA claims the benefit of as having

20

A. Yes.

21

received assignments from participants in the 05:30:51

21

Q. What is the difference?

22

standards and development process, correct?

22

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 05:30:57

23
24

24

an improper question. We've met and

05:30:59

25

conferred about these questions, and I refer

25
05:31:03
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05:34:55
05:34:57

18

NFPA to furnish document numbers of at least

05:30:54

05:34:39

the italicized language at the bottom of

19

05:30:43

05:34:35
05:34:37

Q. Do you recognize any differences between

18

05:30:36

05:33:46

05:33:55

13

say because we accept them in multiple ways

23

05:33:44

12

12

17

to the 2014 National Electrical Code.

Q. This is a proposal that NFPA has maintained

6

10

05:29:59

A. As previously discussed, it's difficult to

5

05:33:32

be a proposal form from our archives relating 05:33:41

8

05:29:57

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Assumes facts.

05:29:51
05:29:53

4

05:33:07

05:35:01

05:35:05
05:35:12
05:35:19

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
documents speak for themselves.

05:35:22

05:35:24

A. Without doing a word-by-word comparison, it
just appears that there's difference in

05:35:28

05:35:35
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length and some initial discussions around

2

the term "technical committee."

3

Q. Is that all?

4
5

05:35:43

MR. REHN: Object to the form. The
A. No.

7
8
9

05:35:45

05:35:46

Q. What else?

MR. REHN: Same objections.

05:35:54

A. Again, for example, the term starts out "I

05:36:00

05:36:05

Q. Do you see any reference to the phrase,

12

"works-made-for-hire" in Exhibit 1272?

13
14
15

A. If you're referring to the italicized text,
bottom of Exhibit 1272.

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5:53.
This is the beginning of Tape No. 4, and we

8

are now back on the record.

05:53:17

BY MR. BRIDGES:

05:53:20

9

05:38:25
05:53:03
05:53:15

Q. Mr. Dubay, you mentioned earlier that NFPA's

05:53:20

staff check each of these proposal and

12

comment forms when they are submitted to look 05:53:34

13

for signatures on the copyright language and

14

indications as to whether the material is

15

original or comes from another source; is

16

that correct?

05:36:26
05:36:33

05:36:35

Q. Were you aware of the change in the

17

05:36:37

05:53:26
05:53:42

05:53:46
05:53:48

05:53:52

A. We have a policy that each and every

05:53:53

18

proposal, public input or comment is reviewed 05:53:57

19

for completeness being signature, copyright

between the 2011 National Electrical Code and 05:36:46

20

release as well as any attached materials for 05:54:03

the 2014 National Electrical Code?

05:36:49

21

05:36:52

22

19

italicized text in the forms for proposal

20
21
22

25

05:38:22

(Break taken)

11

05:36:24

17

24

off the record.

5

05:36:17

I don't see the term "works-for-hire" at the

23

4

10

05:36:22

16
18

05:38:17

This is the end of Tape No. 3, and we are now 05:38:19

05:36:08

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Document speaks for itself.

05:38:17

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 5:38.

7

05:35:48

11

off the record.

2

6

05:35:48

agree" versus "I hereby."

1
3

documents speak for themselves.

6

10

05:35:37

05:35:40

05:36:42

MR. REHN: Object to the form.
Assumes facts.

05:54:08

Q. How many proposals, communications with

23

05:36:54

A. As I previously stated, there were changes

potential copyright with those as well.

05:36:57

public input or comments, falling in the

24

05:54:11

categories you just mentioned, does NFPA

25
05:37:05
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made throughout my tenure at NFPA, and I'm

05:53:59

receive each year?

05:54:20
05:54:26

05:54:29
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1

not aware of specific changes, how they were

05:37:08

1

A. I would approximate if you combine all of our 05:54:36

2

made, but the record before me shows two

05:37:11

2

documents in a given year on the magnitude of 05:54:40

3

versions.

3

public input or comments because that's all

4

we accept now, is on the order of

5

approximately 10,000, on average.

4
5

05:37:14

Q. Were you aware of these changes before
today?

05:37:15

05:37:23

6

A. I was aware before today that we had

7

different versions. I was not aware of

8

specific versions related to specific time

9

frames as shown here.

10

05:37:23

6

05:54:43

05:54:47
05:54:49

Q. So has that average been consistent over the

05:37:32

7

05:37:35

8

A. The average depends. For example, on one

9

year on one document, we got 15,000 public

05:37:37

Q. Do you have any understanding as to the

05:37:40

11

reason for the change in the italicized

12

language at the bottom of Exhibits 1271 and

05:37:42

13

1272?

05:37:47

10

course of your tenure at NFPA?

comments.

05:54:54

05:55:01
05:55:07
05:55:11

05:55:14

11

Q. What document and year was that?

12

A. I'm not sure of the year. It was NFPA 1,500. 05:55:19

05:55:17

13

Q. What is that document?

14

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

05:37:51

14

A. I believe the title is Occupation Safety and

05:55:25

15

The question appears to call for a legal

05:37:53

15

Health For Firefighters. But the best of my

05:55:32

16

opinion. As a precautionary measure, I'll

05:37:57

16

recollection, I don't think that's the exact

17

instruct the witness to exclude from his

05:37:57

17

18

answer anything that was revealed in

05:37:57

18

Q. So over the course of your tenure at NFPA,

05:55:38

19

substance through communications with legal

19

what do you believe the average number of

05:55:46

20

comments and proposals to have been in one

21

year?

20

counsel.

05:37:51

05:38:01

21

A. Can you read back the question, please?

22

Q. I'll restate it.

23
24
25

05:38:00
05:38:08

05:38:15

A. I would speculate that over the course of

23

the time, it's in the 10s, 10,000-ish per
year depending on what documents are in

25
MR. BRIDGES: We'll go off, we'll go 05:38:15
Page 211

cycle.

05:55:49

05:55:57

24

05:38:14

05:55:36

05:55:37

22

05:38:10

VIDEOGRAPHER: Could we change the
tape?

title.

05:55:23

05:55:57
05:55:59
05:56:04

05:56:09
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Q. How many persons check those proposals and

2

submissions for signatures and for the

3

copyright language?

4
5

05:56:09

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.
It's vague as to time.

05:56:19

05:56:21

6

A. Currently our process is that it happens

7

at least in two ways. It's automatic with

05:56:25

8

our online submission system that you have

9

to check the appropriate releases and provide 05:56:35

05:56:30
05:56:33

gave me now, you had another 10 to 13, so

2

you're looking at somewhere between 18 and 23 05:59:09
persons checking signatures and copyright

4

language before the automated submission

5

05:56:17

1
3

05:56:15

process went into effect?

6

05:59:06
05:59:14
05:59:17

05:59:21

A. With our old system, our paper system, those

05:59:25

7

18 to 20 people did the same jobs that our

05:59:29

8

project administrators do, which includes

05:59:32

9

reviewing for copyright but also preparing

05:59:35

10

an electronic signature before you submit.

05:56:38

10

ballots, mailings to committees, committee

05:59:37

11

And then secondly, where there's attached

05:56:42

11

notices and such. So those assignments, with 05:59:40

12

the old process, were much more manually

12

materials or the alternative copyright, then

13

there's a human intervention.

14
15
16
17

05:56:45

05:56:48

Q. How many people perform that task in any
given year?

05:56:54

MR. REHN: Same objection.
Ambiguous as to time.

05:56:58

A. Currently we have a department of eight

19

full-time project administrators and one

20

additional manager. And in times of high

21

volume, we may bring in additional staff

22

resources to assist with that process.

14
15

05:56:57

18

16
17

05:57:00
05:57:05

18

intensive.

05:59:45

Q. But you had how many persons doing the review 05:59:46
during the manual process in total?

05:59:51

MR. REHN: Objection. Asked and
answered.

05:59:55

05:59:56

A. So to ensure that it's a clear answer, they

05:59:57

19

were not solely doing review. It's

05:57:09

20

supporting the committee process. We had an

05:57:12

21

approximately, I would say, 15 to 20

22

administrative staff in that process.

05:57:15

23

Q. What's the largest number of persons you've

24

had engaged in that process at any one time?

25

13

05:56:51

05:59:43

05:57:20
05:57:22

23
24

25
05:57:27
Page 214

A. I don't have direct first-hand knowledge of

06:00:01

06:00:08

Q. And on average before the new automated

06:00:12

online submission system, what percentage of
their time did the 15 to 20 administrative

that because the team scales up as they need

1

06:00:21

staff spend checking for signatures and

2

to and utilize staff from other portions of

05:57:41

2

copyright information on the submissions?

3

my department to get the job done.

05:57:41

3

4
5

Q. What's your understanding as to the largest
number of persons participating in that

05:57:46
05:57:46

06:00:18
Page 216

1

05:57:35

06:00:03

06:00:05

06:00:24
06:00:33

A. I can't speculate on what percentage of the

06:00:45

4

time, but what I can say is the vast majority 06:00:47

5

of their time was spent preparing the

06:00:50

6

material for the committee process, which

06:00:52

7

A. Again, I would say -- I would have to go with 05:57:50

7

included keying those changes, verifying

06:00:54

8

an average and on average, it's that eight to 05:57:58

8

copyright, making sure the agendas were

9

ten, the nine, the eight full-time project

9

ready, supporting the standard system.

6

10
11
12
13

process at any one time?

05:57:49

05:58:01

administrators, the manager and an additional 05:58:03

10

administrative assistant as needed.

11

percentage of the time they spent checking

12

for signatures, verifying the copyright

06:00:57
06:01:00

05:58:06

Q. Was the number larger when there was no
automatic online submission form?

05:58:09
05:58:15

13
14

14

A. Yes.

05:58:21

15

Q. How many persons in a given year before the

05:58:21

information.

06:01:02
06:01:05

06:01:07

06:01:10

A. If I was to speculate, I would say at least

15

50 percent of their time was related to the

16

establishment of the agendas for the

06:01:16
06:01:20
06:01:25

16

automatic online submission form that

17

reviewed these submissions for signatures and 05:58:33

17

committee meetings, which included the

18

copyright language?

18

proposals, comments, verifying materials, all 06:01:30

19

complete, consolidating all that data and

19

05:58:29

Q. So I'm asking your best estimate as to what

05:58:35

A. Historically we've used, utilized a different 05:58:39

06:01:28
06:01:32

20

staffing model where we had more individual

05:58:42

20

information for preparation for the committee 06:01:36

21

one-on-one review of each paper submission.

05:58:45

21

meeting.

22

And in that case, there was approximately,

23
24
25

06:01:38

22

Q. But that wasn't answering my question. My

date depended, approximately an additional 10 05:58:52

23

question was about the percentage of time

06:01:40

to 13 additional individuals.

24

spent checking for signatures and copyright

06:01:42

05:58:48

05:58:54

25
Q. So in addition to the eight to ten number you 05:59:02
Page 215

information. Please answer that question.

06:01:38

06:01:44
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MR. REHN: Object to the form.

06:01:45

Argumentative. Question has been asked and

3

answered.

4

A. And my response remains the same that I can't 06:01:50
speculate specifically to that level of

6

detail of their day-to-day tasks.

8

11
12

06:01:52
06:01:54

other tasks, but not about these tasks?
MR. REHN: Objection.
testimony.

A. No.

Q. Were you ever aware of how much time they

4
6

06:02:00

7
8

06:02:02

Argumentative. Mischaracterizes the

Q. You can't give any estimate at all?

2

5

Q. You can speculate as to specific detail about 06:01:57

9
10

06:01:46

06:01:49

5
7

1
3

2

9

06:02:03

10

06:02:05

11

Q. Why are you not answering the question I've

06:02:05

12

06:03:44

06:03:46

spent on the task?

06:03:54

A. I'm aware of the full-time resources that it

06:03:57

takes to accomplish our process of supporting 06:04:00
our technical committees.

06:04:03

Q. But you're unaware of how much time they
spend carrying out the policy that you
described?
MR. REHN: Objection.

06:04:10
06:04:14

Argumentative.

06:04:14

asked, which is, what's your best estimate of 06:02:07

13

A. I believe I've answered your question.

14

the time, of the percentage of time those

14

Q. What verification -- strike that.

15

persons spent on checking for signatures and

16

copyright information in the submissions?

17

MR. REHN: Objection.

06:02:12
06:02:17

Argumentative. Asked and answered.

19

A. I can speculate on their total workload,

20

their tasks they took --

06:04:17
06:04:19

What efforts did NFPA make to obtain 06:04:34

06:02:21
06:02:24

06:02:27

16

assignments from the companies that employed

17

06:02:20

18

15

06:04:08

06:04:14

13

06:02:10

06:03:46

individuals who submitted proposals or

18

comments for NFPA's codes and standards?

19

06:04:53

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 06:04:58

20

ambiguous. It assumes facts. There's some

21

embedded legal conclusions.

06:05:00

21

Q. That wasn't my question. My question is,

22

what percentage applied to checking for

23

signatures and copyright information? That's 06:02:33

23

submission from the individual. We do not go 06:05:11

24

my question. Is it clear?

24

to their companies to verify authority of

25

their signature.

25

06:02:29

06:04:38

06:04:48

06:02:30

06:02:37

MR. REHN: Objection.

06:02:39

22

06:05:04

A. NFPA verifies through our policy the

06:05:07
06:05:16

06:05:18

Page 218
1

Argumentative.

06:02:39

2

Q. Is the question clear?

3

A. No.

4

Page 220
1 Q. And how does NFPA verify submissions from the 06:05:20

06:02:41

Q. What's unclear about it? Do you understand

2

06:02:43

3

individuals?

06:05:30

MR. REHN: Objection. I think this

06:05:36

06:02:44

4

topic has been extensively asked and answered 06:05:38

5

what checking for signatures means in looking 06:02:47

5

at this point.

6

at the assignment for copyright forms? Do

6 A. Several ways, one of which includes verifying 06:05:43

7

you understand?

8
9
10

06:02:51

06:02:58

MR. REHN: Objection.

7

06:03:00

form indicating it is their right or their

9

06:02:59

A. I understand that we have a policy that each

that the submitter has signed the release

8

06:02:58

Argumentative.

authority to release it.

and every proposal and comment is checked for 06:03:02

11

12

copyright and any associated submitted

12

13

material is also checked. I have a team, a

14

full-time staff that that is one of their

06:03:04
06:03:07

primary tasks to do each and every day.
Q. Great. I'm glad to know about the policy.

06:05:53

submission from the individual?

06:06:06

MR. REHN: Same objection.

06:06:08

06:03:11
06:03:14

06:06:14

15

that is not of that individual who submitted

06:06:18

16

it, we then contact them and if possible, we

06:06:21

17

contact the owner of the copyright of the

06:06:24

18

time do you estimate, your best estimate,

06:03:23

18

statement that's within that attached

19

that they spend carrying out that policy?

06:03:27

19

material.

22

06:03:18

and there's an obvious copyright statement

Now my question is, what percentage of their

21

MR. REHN: Objection. Asked and
answered.

06:03:30

06:03:31

A. I would restate that, due to all the

variables and the amount of variations that

24

happen each year, I cannot speculate on that

25

specific singular task.

22

06:03:37

06:06:27

06:06:28

20 Q. What else does NFPA do to verify the
21

06:03:34

23

06:06:10

14

17

20

06:05:54

13 A. Another example is if we review the material

06:03:09

16

06:05:46
06:05:48

10 Q. What else does NFPA do to verify the

11

15

06:05:40

submission from the individual?

06:06:31
06:06:35

MR. REHN: Same objection.

06:06:37

06:03:42

06:06:44

24

that's the direct way we do it to the person

06:06:48

25

06:03:39

23 A. That's -- to the best of my recollection,
who submitted it.

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06:06:50
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Q. Do you recall anything else that NFPA does to 06:06:51

1

A. Language within parentheses, what I see is

2

verify the submission from the individual?

06:06:54

2

the note original material. Is that what

3

MR. REHN: Same objection. Asked

06:06:57

3

you're referring to?

4

and answered.

06:06:58

6

Q. Does NFPA have any documents setting out the

9
10

06:06:59

verification process that you've described?

06:07:00

Q. Right.

06:11:05

5

A. No.

8

A. Okay.

06:11:05

6

Q. Was that language -- that language was in a

06:07:31

7

06:07:41

A. I believe that our codes and standards

8

department has a best practices document on
how to process each review.

06:07:47

06:07:51

9
10

11

Q. Who wrote that best practices document?

12

A. I don't know.

13

Q. Do you know whether the best practices

06:07:52

14

document says anything about getting

06:08:04

14

15

assignments or copyright releases from

06:08:05

15

16

employers of individuals who have submitted

17

proposals or comments?

06:07:58

06:08:09

06:08:13

A. Without reviewing that document in

19

specificity, I can't comment to that.

20
21
22
23
24
25

06:08:15

produced in this litigation?

06:08:21

06:08:27

(Exhibit 1273 marked for

06:11:32

Q. In other forms provided by NFPA for comments
or proposals, correct?

A. It appears consistent to the proposal form.
(Exhibit 1275 marked for
identification.)

06:11:39

06:12:08
06:12:27

18

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1275.

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1275

20

appears to be a proposal form on NFPA 101

06:12:27

from our archives.

A. (Witness examines document) Looks like an
archival version of a form proposals on one

3

of our documents, looks like the National

06:08:47
06:09:04

06:12:34
06:12:39

06:12:44

Q. And this appears to be a proposal from a

06:12:47

Robert DiAngelo of the U.S. Army Corps of
Engineers; is that right?

25
06:08:43
Page 222
1
2

06:11:32

06:11:36

24

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1273.

06:11:23

06:11:30

23

06:08:34

Electrical Code.

16

21

06:08:43

2

5

06:11:17

seen.

22

1

4

speak for themselves.

A. Based upon my knowledge and review today, it

19

06:08:31

identification.)

MR. REHN: Objection. The documents 06:11:16

appears similar to other statements I've

13

06:11:06

06:11:11

11

17

06:08:18

Q. Do you know whether that document was
A. I do not know.

number of NFPA's forms, correct?

12

06:07:56

18

06:11:04

4

5
7

06:10:53

06:11:01

06:12:53

06:12:56

A. Based upon the form, yes, it appears to be

correct from Mr. DiAngelo.

06:13:00
Page 224

06:13:03

Q. Based on your position at NFPA, what

06:13:04

06:09:10

Q. This is from -- NFPA maintained this like the 06:09:10

verification would you expect the project

06:13:09

administrators to conduct with respect to

06:13:12

5

this proposal?

6

06:13:18

A. I would anticipate that they would review the 06:13:28

6

other documents in the ordinary course of

7

business as part of the standards development 06:09:17

7

form and ensure that it's been completed,

8

process?

8

it's appropriate on the edition of the

9

document, that the appropriate checks box has 06:13:37

9
10
11
12

06:09:15

3
4

06:09:07

06:09:19

A. Yes. This document appears to be one from
our standards archive.

06:09:19

(Exhibit 1274 marked for

12

06:09:50

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1274.

14

A. (Witness examines document) This appears to

15

be an archival from our archives of the 2008

16

National Electrical Code proposal.

18

06:09:50
06:10:14

Q. Proposal from Doug Lee of the Consumer
Products Safety Commission?

06:10:24

20

Q. Down below you see Item 5 has been marked
A. Yup.

23

Q. It says, "This proposal is original material" 06:10:40

06:10:38

within parentheses. Do you see that?

14

A. There's a box checked in this case, the

15

original material is checked, so there's a
selection and there's a signature.

17

06:13:43

06:13:47
06:13:49
06:13:52
06:13:55

Q. Has it been the practice of anyone at NFPA to 06:13:58
contact the company listed on these forms,

06:14:03

here, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, to

06:14:07

20

confirm the authority of the submitter to
submit a proposal like this?

06:14:11

06:14:16

22

22

25

the appropriate check box?

21

06:10:28

06:10:37

and then there's language after that, "NA"

06:13:43

Q. And what makes it -- how does one determine

19

06:10:28

24

submitter.

06:13:40

18

06:10:28

A. Yes.
with an X?

13

been selected and that it is signed by the

16

06:10:06

06:10:21

19
21

11

06:09:38

identification.)

13

17

10

06:09:21

06:13:31
06:13:35

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

23

A. Again, based upon my 20 years of experience,

06:14:17
06:14:21

06:10:50

24

this type of form, this type of signature and 06:14:26

25

06:10:42

original material signature has never been

Page 223

06:14:28
Page 225

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questioned, challenged or brought into

06:14:30

1

2

consideration on the authority aspect. It's

06:14:35

2

3

the understanding that the person's

4
5
6

06:14:36

not his original material, so I wouldn't

submitting it to the NFPA codes and standards 06:14:38

4

assume that, based upon our policy, this

process.

5

would not have been project administrators at 06:19:46

6

this time, it would have been the admin staff 06:19:48

7

back in 2000 would have contacted Mr. Burns

8

to find out the relationship to Mr. Houston

9

and act accordingly, based upon what they

06:14:41

Q. It's the understanding that the person

06:14:42

submitting to the NFPA code and standards

8

process does what?

06:14:49

06:14:52

MR. REHN: I believe what he said

06:14:54

10

was the person is submitting it to the NFPA

11

code and standard. Is that what you said?

12

THE WITNESS: Yes.

13
15
16
17
18
19

06:14:55
06:14:58

MR. REHN: I think the transcript

14

didn't catch the "is."

06:15:05
06:15:08

06:15:15

(Exhibit 1276 marked for

06:15:46

Q. Can you please identify Exhibit 1276.

A. (Witness examines document) This appears to

24
25

proposal might have been rejected on
formality grounds?

06:20:02
06:20:03

06:20:06

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

15

A. I have no knowledge of what the final result

06:20:08
06:20:10

was on this proposal.

06:20:15

Q. Is that a possibility?

06:20:16

06:16:22

Q. And the submitter indicates his company and

MR. REHN: Same objection.

06:20:17

A. That is a possibility. It's also a

06:20:21

06:16:42

20

possibility that Mr. Burns, or Mr. Houston

06:20:23

21

could have submitted it on his own and

06:20:25

22

06:16:00

06:16:18

his apparent business address; is that

Q. So in your view, it's possible that this

18

06:15:57

proposal NFPA 13 from our archives.

06:19:56

06:19:59

11

19

21
23

06:19:49

06:19:53

17

06:15:57

be an -- Exhibit 1276 appears to be a

06:19:43

16

06:15:23

identification.)

06:19:40

14

Q. Mr. DiAngelo gives a company and a business
A. Yes, it appears so.

found out.

13

06:15:04

address on this form, does he not?

10
12

06:15:02

20
22

06:19:36

And secondly, Item 5 he said this is 06:19:38

3

7
9

at the top he's not completed.

provided a statement to supplement the

06:20:27

23

record.

24
25

06:16:54

06:20:52

(Exhibit 1278 marked for
identification.)

06:20:52
06:20:59

Page 226
1
2
3

correct?

1

06:17:02

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

06:17:02

A. Based upon my review of Exhibit 1276, it does 06:17:04

4

appear that he states a company and street

5

address.

6
7
8
9
10
11
12

06:17:08

Q. The company -- you understand that to be the
MR. REHN: Object to the form.
A. I have no way to confirm that at this time.
(Exhibit 1277 marked for

06:17:27

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1277

06:18:22

archive.

19
20
21

06:21:50

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1279.

8

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1279

10

13

06:21:50
06:21:57

appears to be a proposal on NFPA 12 from our
archives.

06:22:13

06:22:18

Q. It's also indicated that the proposal is not
original material, correct?

06:22:21

06:22:29

A. Based upon my review, it appears that the

06:22:35

submitter, Mr. Kennedy, is looking to update

06:22:38

06:18:39

15

a reference to a document not published by

06:22:40

NFPA.

06:18:47

What verification of this submission 06:19:02
have performed on this document?

identification.)

06:21:39

14

06:18:43

would you expect project administrators to

6

06:21:22

(Exhibit 1279 marked for

16

appears to be a proposal on NFPA 10 from our

16

Q. Do you recall -- strike that.

our archives.

06:18:27

15

18

4

12

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1277.

06:21:02

appears to be a proposal form on NFPA 10 from 06:21:18

11

06:17:45
06:18:22

14

06:20:59

3

9

06:17:23

identification.)

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1278

7

06:17:22

13

17

06:17:19

06:17:20

Calls for speculation.

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1278.

2

5

06:17:10

company's street address?

Page 228

06:19:05
06:19:09

A. Based upon my review, there's two things that 06:19:21
06:19:26

17
18
19
20
21
22

06:22:43

Q. Was he looking to update a reference or to
correct an error?

06:22:44

06:22:48

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

06:22:49

Q. Do you see where he says the ASME code
is referenced incorrectly?

06:22:55

06:22:58

A. Based upon my experience in NFPA standards

06:23:14

22

stands out to me. One is Mr. Burns has not

23

indicated how he wants us to communicate with 06:19:29

23

development process, our documents could also 06:23:22

24

him because we ensure that we respond to each 06:19:31

24

be referred to as ANSI, NFPA. Those are

25

25
and every proposal. So there's an indication 06:19:34
Page 227

ANSI-accredited standards. In this case it

06:23:25
06:23:31
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appears that this gentleman is looking to

2

delete the ANSI term in front of ASME. But

3

based upon my experience, ASME 31.1 is an

4

ANSI-accredited standard.

06:23:31

Q. ANSI-accredited?

6

A. Yes, sir.

7

Q. Does that mean issued by ANSI?

9

06:23:37

06:23:42

5

8

call for speculation. Outside the scope.
06:23:54

11

Q. Does that mean that -- so is it permissible

12

for persons to refer to NFPA codes that are

13

ANSI-accredited as ANSI codes?

A. (Witness examines document) It appears to

8

be a proposal from our archives relating to
NFPA 70.

11

06:24:04

06:27:44
06:27:48
06:28:18

06:28:22

(Exhibit 1282 marked for

06:28:31

identification.)

06:28:53

12

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1282.

13

A. (Witness examines document) Exhibit 1282

06:24:13

14

appears to be a proposal from our archives

15

on NFPA 70.

Ambiguous. Confusing. Outside the scope.

17
18

Q. Is it appropriate to refer to them as -- is

06:24:15

standards as ANSI-accredited standards.
it appropriate to refer -- strike that.

06:24:21
06:24:24
06:24:27

Is it NFPA 70 ANSI-accredited?

21

MR. REHN: Outside the scope. The
A. Yes. It's processed through our

06:29:20

(Exhibit 1283 marked for

06:29:49

identification.)

06:29:59

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1283.

A. (Witness examines document) It appears to

06:29:59
06:30:05

20

be a recommendation from the Department of

21

the Army for a change to our Life Safety

22

06:24:37
06:24:39

Code.

06:30:53

Q. Would it have been a policy of NFPA's to

24

reject this recommendation for failure to

25

06:24:50

06:30:44

06:30:46

23

06:24:41

ANSI-accredited standards development system. 06:24:48
Q. And is it appropriate to refer to it as

17

06:29:05
06:29:16

19

06:24:33

witness may answer if he knows.

16

06:28:53

18

06:24:30

20

25

06:27:44

Q. Please identify Exhibit 1281.

06:23:55

A. It would be appropriate to refer to NFPA

24

06:27:35

identification.)

06:24:08

16

23

(Exhibit 1281 marked for

06:27:03

7

10

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

22

documents to NFPA 101 from our archives.

9

06:23:51

06:23:52

A. No.

19

3

06:26:49

06:27:00

6
06:23:47

10

15

be a proposal form with its attached

5

06:23:47

A. (Witness examines document) This appears to

2
4

06:23:45

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May

14

1

06:23:33

include copyright language?

06:30:53
06:30:57

06:31:02

Page 230
1

ANSI 70?

2
3

1

06:24:57
06:25:00

3

form. Our policy would be to follow up as

06:25:03

Vague.

4

requested by a Lieutenant Colonel

5

Everette Horne with Mr. Prediger to determine 06:31:18

6

if they wished to submit a formal

7

recommendation through the process and to

8

help them through that process.

06:24:57

06:25:03

6 A. Because it's NFPA 70.

06:25:04

7 Q. To your knowledge, is ASME B31.1 also known
as ANSI ASME B31.1?

9 A. Historically, yes.

9

06:25:55

to ANSI NFPA 70?

question as to being outside the scope. The

16

witness can answer if he knows.

23
24

identification.)

form in order to consider recommendation for
a change by the Department of the Army?

06:31:36
06:31:39

A. Our policy would say that if they're

06:31:45

submitting a formal recommendation through

06:31:48

06:31:50

15

wish to attend the committee meeting to

06:31:53

discuss a change with the committee or

06:31:55

present material to the committee, we have

06:31:58

18

open meetings and we would allow that.

06:32:00

Q. There are persons permitted to attend

06:32:03

committee meetings and to make suggestions at 06:32:07
committee meetings without signing documents

22

that yield all copyright rights and their

23

06:26:38

20
21

06:26:31
06:26:33

06:26:35

25 Q. Please identify Exhibit 1280.

Q. Would NFPA require a signature on a copyright 06:31:31

our public process, yes. However, if they

19

06:26:27

MR. REHN: Same objection to scope

(Exhibit 1280 marked for

06:31:27

06:31:29

17

06:26:24

and objection to the form of the question.

22 A. No.

06:31:25

16

06:26:19

06:26:22

18 Q. Would it ever be appropriate to refer to

06:31:11
06:31:14

14

06:26:21

17 A. Not to my knowledge.

12

06:31:09

13

06:26:16

15

21

06:26:05

06:26:10

MR. REHN: I'll object to this

20

11

06:26:04

12 Q. Historically has NFPA 70 ever been referred

NFPA 70 as ANSI 70?

10

06:25:57

11 A. Not to my knowledge.

19

06:25:16

06:25:44

10 Q. Is it also known as ANSI B31.1?

14

06:31:05

the basis of it just initially lacking the

5 Q. Why not?

13

A. Our policy is not to reject a submission on

2

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

4 A. No.

8

Page 232

contributions to NFPA?

24

06:26:47

25

06:26:47

06:32:10

06:32:14
06:32:19

MR. REHN: Objection to form. Calls 06:32:21
for a legal opinion.

Page 231

06:32:22
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A. Members of the public or whoever, I guess

2

private sector or public sector, are

3

permitted to attend our committee meetings

4

and discuss issues with our technical

5

committee.

06:32:25

6

06:32:28
06:32:31

06:32:32

06:32:34

Ultimately in the committee meeting, 06:32:34

7

our technical committee members are

8

responsible for developing any text or

9

changes to the document in coordination with

10
11

staff.

06:32:36
06:32:39
06:32:41

06:32:43

Q. Are members of the public who attend the open 06:32:44

12

technical committee meetings permitted to

13

suggest textural revisions or additions?

14
15

06:32:46
06:32:50

MR. REHN: Objection to form.

06:32:57

A. We do not limit the statements on the public. 06:32:58

16

MR. BRIDGES: Let's go off the

17

record, if we may, briefly. What I'm going

18

to ask him to do when we come back is to

19

authenticate a bunch of the codes.

20
21
22
23
24
25

06:33:04
06:33:06
06:33:09
06:33:11

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6:33. We 06:33:14
are now off the record.
(Break taken)

06:33:17
06:33:20

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6:47, and 06:47:26
we are now back on the record.

06:47:32

MR. BRIDGES: Thank you. As we went 06:47:33
Page 234

1

off the record, I was discussing a desire to

2

authenticate a number of the NFPA codes and

3

standards at issue in the case.

4
5

I think we have an agreement; I'd

Page 236
1

06:47:37
06:47:40

A. 17729?

2

Q. Right. Do you see shading at several points

3

06:47:43

on that page?
A. Yes, I do see shading.

Q. I'm not referring to the shading around the

6

06:47:48

article titles. What does the other shading

7

on the page indicate?

that rather than authenticating a bunch of

7

big documents, counsel will agree that NFPA

8

counsel will furnish us Bates ranges of the

06:47:58

8

9

standards at issue in the lawsuit and that we 06:48:06

9

06:47:53

06:50:23
06:50:25
06:50:28

06:50:31

A. Shading within the NEC indicates locations

11

those Bates numbers as produced as authentic

12

copies of the relevant codes and standards.

13

Is that agreeable?

10

06:48:12

can rely upon copies of those documents with

06:50:35

where changes have occurred between editions. 06:50:39

06:48:09

10

06:50:17

06:50:20

5

06:47:46

6

14

06:50:07

4

06:47:45

just like to get a stipulation on the record

1
we'll stipulate to true and correct copies of 06:48:53
2
the standards at issue in this case.
06:48:55
3
MR. BRIDGES: You'll stipulate to
06:48:57
4
the fact that they are true and correct
06:48:58
5
copies if they were produced?
06:48:59
6
MR. REHN: Sure.
06:49:00
7
MR. BRIDGES: Okay. Thanks.
06:49:01
8
BY MR. BRIDGES:
06:49:01
9 Q. I'm not marking this as an exhibit, but I'm 06:49:04
10
referring to it by the numbers stamped at
06:49:06
11
the bottom. Can you please identify the
06:49:11
12
document that starts at 17535, ends at 18417. 06:49:17
13
I'm not asking you to look through 06:49:28
14
every page, but I assume that this is a copy 06:49:30
15
of the 2011 edition of the National
06:49:33
16
Electrical Code. Does that seem correct to 06:49:38
17
you?
06:49:41
18 A. Based upon what I have in front of me, it
06:49:42
19
appears to be a copy of the 2011 National
06:49:44
20
Electrical Code.
06:49:49
21 Q. There are some items within this document
06:49:49
22
that have some shading. I don't know if
06:49:53
23
they're in color on other instances of it,
06:49:56
24
but let me ask you to refer to the page with 06:50:00
25
Bates No. 17729, for example.
06:50:03

11

was this a means of indicating changes from

12

earlier editions?

06:48:15

13

06:48:17

Q. How many times -- through how many editions

06:50:47

06:50:49

A. To the best of my knowledge, with respect to

14

the NEC, which is one of the few documents we 06:50:58

06:48:22

15

use shading, it was for the 2011 and 2014. I 06:51:01

stipulate that we will agree to a method of

16

identifying the standards at issue in the

17

case. We're amenable to Bates numbers, but

18

we'll take it under advisement as to the most 06:48:34

18

something changed there compared to the 2011

19

efficient way to do that.

19

edition, correct?

21
22

16

06:48:26
06:48:28

06:48:36

MR. BRIDGES: Can we get that
information within 15 days?

06:50:53

06:48:18

MR. REHN: We will -- yeah, we'll

15

20

06:50:42

do not recall if it was prior to that.

06:51:06

Q. So in the 2014, if there's shading, it means

06:48:40

20

A. Correct.

Q. And the 2011 edition, if there's shading,

06:51:12

06:51:15
06:51:16

22

that indicates that there's something changed 06:51:19

23

to meet further to hammer out the details.

06:48:41

23

there from the 2008 edition. Is that a fair

24

But with respect to the standards at issue in 06:48:44

24

inference?

25

this case, we are going to be objecting --

25

06:48:46

06:51:08

06:51:14

21

06:48:37
06:48:38

MR. REHN: Sure, and we'll be happy

17

A. If you refer to Page 17559 --

Page 235

06:51:21

06:51:27
06:51:36
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Q. Yes.

2

A. Top left-hand paragraph below the bold

3

06:51:42

1

4

including shaded or bulleting, like a dot.

5

Q. It says, "Changes other than editorial are

2

itself.

06:51:57

discusses what we used to indicate changes

correlation across the entire standard

06:51:52

3

Q. And these pages identify various code-making

4

panels and then they indicate which portions

5

of the National Electrical Code they were

6

responsible for; is that correct?

06:51:59
06:52:07

6

highlighted with gray shading." Do you see

7

that?

06:52:13

06:52:15

7

8

A. Yes.

06:52:15

9

Q. What's an example of some editorial changes

8

10
11

the NEC?

06:52:16

that would have occurred between editions of

06:52:19

06:52:22

Q. Anything else?

06:52:23

14

A. The only thing I can think of is occasionally 06:52:36

06:52:34

documents, paragraphs roll into each other,
so spacing, things like that.

17

06:55:18

MR. REHN: Object to the form of the 06:55:25
question.

06:55:26

A. That is my understanding.

06:55:27

Q. And it indicates the -- and this list

06:55:29

of those persons who participated in the work 06:55:41

13

06:52:46

that's reflected in this edition; is that

14

correct?

06:55:45

06:55:50

06:52:52

15

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

16

06:52:50

Q. The document contains lists of persons

indicates both the names and the affiliations 06:55:34

A. Our committee lists indicate the name of the

17

06:55:50

individual who holds the seat, whether

18

starting at Page 17547 up through Page 17558, 06:53:07

18

correct?

19

company they work for and, if any,

20

representation if they do have a

21
22

06:53:18

MR. FEE: Could you repeat that.
What was the question?

06:53:25
06:53:30

Q. The document contains lists of persons

21

06:53:31

representation.

06:55:51

06:55:56

they're a principal or alternate, what

19
20

06:55:12
06:55:16

12

A. Sample could be a spelling error.

13

16

06:55:59
06:56:01
06:56:03

06:56:05

22

Q. So let's say in the case of Page 17551 --

23

starting at Page 17547 up through Page 17558, 06:53:34

23

A. 551.

24

correct?

24

06:56:08

Q. There's a reference to John Ray of Duke

25

06:53:39

25
A. Just to make sure I understand your question, 06:53:41
Page 238

1

you just indicated there is a list of

2

persons?
Q. Right.

4
6
7

06:56:28
Page 240

Electric Light and Power Group." What does
that mean?

3

06:53:51
06:53:57

A. Before I answer the question, I'm just having 06:56:38
trouble finding John's name. Is he on the

5

one on Code-Making Panel 7?

06:56:41
06:56:43

6

Q. Panel 7, left column, four from the bottom.

06:54:02

7

A. So in that case it appears Mr. Ray, the

06:54:00

Q. And I think you testified earlier but just

06:56:29

06:56:33

4

06:53:54

technical committee members as well as NFPA
staff, where appropriate.

06:56:22

Energy Corporation and it says, "Rep,

2

A. Those pages appear to contain lists of

5

06:56:20

1

06:53:49

06:53:50

3

06:55:05

11

12

15

9
10

06:54:56

06:54:59

06:56:46
06:56:55

8

for the sake of clarification, committees

06:54:04

8

company he works for is Duke Engineering

9

that are called technical committees for

06:54:09

9

Corporation. He represents a utility, and

10

06:54:11

06:57:00
06:57:02

his representation of the committee is

06:57:04

10

other codes and standards are called

11

code-making panels when it comes to the

12

National Electrical Code; is that correct?

06:54:15

12

Q. And the letters in brackets after the names,

06:57:13

13

A. That is partially correct. There are two

06:54:18

13

employers and states indicate the -- what do

06:57:23

you call it? Not the interest group. The

06:54:13

11

14

ways we address the National Electrical Code. 06:54:21

14

15

There are code-making panels and their work

15

16

is overseen by a technical correlating

17

committee.

18
19
20

06:54:24

06:57:29

06:57:32

A. It's the interest category.

17

06:54:30

Q. The interest category. So the letters within 06:57:37

06:57:34

06:54:37

18

brackets at the end of the line on which the

19

06:54:35

A. The technical correlating committee is

interest section?

06:57:06

16

06:54:26

Q. What is the work of the technical correlating 06:54:31
committee?

Electrical Light and Power Group, EEI.

names of the individuals are found is a code

20

for the interest category; is that correct?

06:57:39
06:57:45

21

responsible for correlation across the entire 06:54:42

21

A. That is correct.

22

document to ensure that the code-making

22

Q. M is manufacturer; is that right? M stands

23

panels are aware of potential conflicting

24

requirements between their portions of the

25

document and also consistency. It's

06:54:45

23

06:54:49

for manufacturer?

06:57:47

06:54:53

24

A. Yes, M is for manufacturer.
Q. E stands for enforcer; is that correct?

Page 239

06:57:48

06:58:00

25

06:54:52

06:57:43

06:58:00
06:58:02
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A. Correct. The Es could represent federal
06:58:05
1
government, state and local government as
06:58:14 2
well as state fire officials, local fire
06:58:17
3
officials.
06:58:20
4
Q. I notice on the front page of this there's a 06:58:21
5
section near the bottom right of the page
06:58:42
6
that says "Order redline PDF." Do you see
06:58:45 7
that?
06:58:48
8
A. Yes.
06:58:48
9
Q. That redline PDF is a different document.
06:58:49 10
This is not the redline, correct?
06:58:52
11
A. Based upon my review here, it appears to be 06:58:57 12
the, quote, unquote, normal version with the 06:59:01 13
shading to track changes and not a full track 06:59:04 14
changes redline version.
06:59:07
15
Q. And if one orders the redline PDF, does that 06:59:08 16
show the text that was deleted which might
06:59:11 17
not appear in this version?
06:59:14
18
A. That is my understanding, but I have not seen 06:59:17 19
the redline version of this document.
06:59:21
20
Q. Let me ask you to turn to Page 17538.
06:59:23 21
A. 17538.
06:59:53
22
Q. Does the language on that page appear
06:59:57 23
correct, to your knowledge?
07:00:02
24
MR. REHN: You're referring to the 07:00:11
25

Vague and ambiguous.

07:01:33

A. Yes. We had a major rewrite of our

07:01:36

regulations in approximately 2007, 2008 time
frame we started that process.

07:01:40

07:01:48

Q. Has there been any significant change
since -- strike that.

07:01:50

07:01:53

You said that's when the process

07:01:54

started. When did that process end?

07:01:56

A. The rewrite to our regulations ended, to the

07:01:57

best of my knowledge, in approximately 2009,
2010.

07:02:06

07:02:09

Q. Have there been any other, in your mind,
significant changes to the standards

07:02:13
07:02:16

development process since 2010?
A. No.

07:02:18

07:02:22

Q. Do you, in preparing and overseeing the

07:02:22

development of codes and standards, strive to 07:02:48
make them suitable for governments to adopt
for purposes of enforcement?

07:02:53

07:02:59

MR. REHN: Object to the form. It's 07:03:05
vague. May call for a legal opinion.

07:03:07

A. Part of our committee officers guide is a

07:03:15

guidance document that is to address

07:03:19

usability, adoptability and enforceability.

07:03:22

It's guidance to our committees to

07:03:27

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Page 244

1

whole language on the page?

07:00:13

1

ensure that they write clear and not vague

07:03:29

2

MR. BRIDGES: Right.

07:00:15

2

requirements that are understandable and

07:03:31

3

MR. REHN: Objection as to form.

3

concise.

07:00:15

4

A. To the best of my knowledge, it appears like

5

our opening issuing statement, our history

07:00:21
07:00:23

4
5

07:03:33

Q. You said usability, adoptability and

07:03:34

enforceability; is that right?

07:03:38

6

and development of the National Electrical

07:00:27

6

A. Yes.

7

Code as well as our copyright statements, to

07:00:29

7

Q. Does adoptability include within that concept 07:03:41

8
9
10

the best of my knowledge.

07:00:34

Q. So it's correct, to the best of your
knowledge?
A. It appears correct.
A. 536.

as enforceable law?

10

Q. What about the language on Page 17536?

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the ease of adoption by governments of codes

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07:00:37

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8

07:00:34

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07:03:40

07:00:37

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07:00:40

07:03:50

07:04:01

MR. REHN: Object to the form. May
call for a legal opinion.

07:04:03

07:04:07

MR. REHN: Object to the form and

07:00:52

A. I can't comment on the ease of the adoption.

07:04:11

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07:00:45

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What I can comment on is my view of that is

07:04:15

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that our standards need to contain, for

07:04:19

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to the extent the question calls for the

07:00:53

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example, mandatory language if they're going

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witness to render a legal opinion.

07:00:55

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to be a standard and enforceable and, I would 07:04:26

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MR. BRIDGES: I'm just asking if

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it's correct to the best of his knowledge.

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A. To the best of my knowledge, this appears

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correct and typical of our front matter

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within our standards.

07:01:01

17

07:01:03

assume, adoptable.

07:04:29

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07:01:11
07:01:14

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them suitable for a government to adopt the

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07:01:08

Q. That makes -- the mandatory language makes
codes and standards as law?

21

07:04:35

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

07:04:37

Assumes facts. May call for a legal opinion. 07:04:40

Q. A couple broad questions: Has the standards

07:01:20

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development process changed in any material

07:01:23

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A. That's partly my understanding but also the

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way since you arrived at NFPA?

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mandatory language ensures that private

25

entities, private organizations can also

MR. REHN: Object to the form.

07:01:25
07:01:33

07:04:31
07:04:34

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07:04:22

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utilize them in their facilities and

2

applications.

3
4
5

VIDEOGRAPHER: We've reached the
seven hours.

07:04:59

07:05:01

MR. BRIDGES: Thank you very much.

6
7

07:04:54
07:04:57

CROSS EXAMINATION

07:05:01

07:05:01

BY MR. REHN:

07:05:01

8

Q. Mr. Dubay, I have a couple of questions for

9

you just to clear up some issues that arose

07:05:05
07:05:07

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earlier I think in response to my own perhaps 07:05:10

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confusing instruction.

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07:05:14

Do you recall being asked whether

07:05:17

you reviewed any documents in preparation for 07:05:18
this deposition?

07:05:20

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A. Yes.

07:05:21

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Q. Do you recall that before you answered

07:05:21

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that question, I instructed you to answer to

18

the extent you remembered any specific

19

documents?

07:05:24
07:05:26

07:05:27

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A. Yes.

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Q. And do you recall that your answer to that

22
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07:05:29
07:05:29

question was "no" after I've given you that
instruction?

07:05:31

07:05:35

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A. Yes.

07:05:35

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Q. So I'd like to just ask that question again.

07:05:35

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This is the end of Tape No. 4 as well as
07:06:35
the deposition, and we are now off the
07:06:37
record.
07:06:39
(Whereupon the deposition was
07:06:39
concluded at 7:06 p m.)

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In preparation for this deposition, did

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you review any documents, excluding

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identifying any specific documents, but

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did you review any documents in preparation

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for today?

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07:05:43

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several that I reviewed with counsel.
Q. Thank you.

07:05:49

07:05:53

MR. REHN: No further questions.

07:05:53

MR. BRIDGES: I have a follow-up.
What were the documents -questions.

07:05:55

07:05:55

MR. FEE: Hold on. I have no

07:05:55

07:05:59

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BRIDGES:

07:05:59
07:05:59

Q. What were the documents that you reviewed
with counsel?

MR. REHN: I will instruct the

19

witness not to answer that question on the

21
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ground of attorney-client privilege.

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A. Yes.

24

Q. Okay.

25

07:06:01
07:06:02
07:06:04

Q. And do you intend to follow your counsel's
instruction?

07:05:59

07:06:00

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07:05:45

A. The only documents I reviewed were the

14
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07:06:29

VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7:06.

07:06:31
Page 247

Page 248

1
I declare under penalty of perjury
2 under the laws that the foregoing is
3 true and correct.
4
5
Executed on _________________ , 20___,
6 at _____________, ___________________________.
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_____________________________
12
Christian Dubay
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COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS)
SUFFOLK, SS )

I, Jeanette Maracas, Registered
Professional Reporter and Notary Public in
and for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do
hereby certify that there came before me on
the 1st day of April, 2015, at 10:00 a m ,
the person hereinbefore named, who was by me
duly sworn to testify to the truth and
nothing but the truth of his knowledge
touching and concerning the matters in
controversy in this cause; that he was
thereupon examined upon his oath, and his
examination reduced to typewriting under my
direction; and that the deposition is a true
record of the testimony given by the witness
I further certify that I am neither
attorney or counsel for, nor related to or
employed by, any attorney or counsel employed
by the parties hereto or financially
interested in the action
In witness whereof, I have hereunto
set my hand this 8th day of April, 2015

Notary Public
My commission expires 8/14/20

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101 224:20 232:3
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110 158:22,24
111 158:22
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1130 3:19
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229:9
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1231 3:16 103:18,21
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1232 3:17 117:9,11
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1252 4:19 150:1,3,7
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1253 4:20 150:19,21
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1254 4:12,22 151:14
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1260 5:11 158:3,5,9
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1263 5:14 169:22,24
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1264 5:15 171:12,14
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1265 5:17 185:8,11
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1266 5:18 185:20,22
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1269 5:21 192:12,15
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1270 5:23 195:24
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1271 6:5 203:1,3,4
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1272 6:6 208:24
209:1,18 210:12,17
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1273 6:8 222:23,25
1274 6:9 223:11,13
1275 6:11 224:16,18
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1276 6:12 226:18,20
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1277 6:13 227:11,13
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1278 6:14 228:24
229:1,2
1279 6:15 229:5,7,8
128 3:23,24 4:4
1280 6:17 231:23,25
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1282 6:20 232:10,12
232:13
1283 6:21 232:16,18
12:11 88:12
12:20 88:16
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216:1 226:23
130 4:5,6
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134 4:9
13e 13:2
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146 4:14,16
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15-5f 102:6
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150 4:19,21
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1997 152:14
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2000 138:8 228:7
20004 2:4
2005 62:9
2007 13:11,16 244:3

2008 58:22,24 62:2
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2009 244:10
2010 244:11,14
2011 62:10 203:6
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210:20 236:15,19
237:15,18,21
2012 107:4 199:5
2014 62:10 79:20,22
81:18 117:15
160:14,18 170:1
171:16 185:1,13
209:4 210:21
237:15,17
2015 1:22 7:4 102:5
250:6,16
203 6:5
208 6:7
215 102:6
2202 6:7
2208 6:5
222 6:8
223 6:10
224 6:11
226 6:12
227 6:13
228 6:14
229 6:16
23 216:2
231 6:17
232 6:19,20,21
2335 4:22
246 3:5
250 1:25
2766 6:21
2775 6:17
27th 2:8
2:22 125:2
3
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153:12 171:3
185:18 187:23

212:3
30 1:16 82:20 112:1
300 14:24
31.1 230:3
32 10:16
3244 4:8
35 111:25
38,556 111:22
38500 102:2
38502 97:8
38506 102:16
103:11
38507 102:17
103:12
38520 105:6
3:25 153:7
3:36 153:11
4
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163:21 170:4,25
171:5 172:9 186:2
187:21 209:10
212:7 248:1
42 1:21
48 3:10
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172:4 180:7 187:21
193:8 223:20 228:2
50 70:4 217:15
50,000 111:24
506 116:12
507 116:13
5100 5:10
520 115:16
536 243:13
551 240:23
555 2:12
560 2:8
5815 6:8
5:38 212:2
5:53 212:6

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165:6 171:19
607 187:10
608 187:14
6608 5:19
6822 5:22
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6:33 234:20
6:47 234:23
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7,000 180:7
70 79:20,23,25 80:1
81:1,18,23 101:8,16
101:17 230:20
231:1,6,12,13,19,19
232:9,15
70e 96:9 101:5,8
113:9
7560 4:21
79 79:23
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8262 6:10
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american 1:3,7 7:12
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amount 31:24 33:4
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analysis 161:1
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annotation 80:17
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anthony 2:15 7:6
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187:10,14 188:1,2
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193:5 196:3 203:5
206:14 209:2,8,25
211:15 223:9,14
224:11,15,20,22,25
226:17,21,22
227:15 229:3,9,13
230:1 232:1,7,14,19
236:19 241:7
242:12 243:4,11,19
appendix 137:4
138:3,9,16 140:1
applicant's 104:3
application 17:24
18:1 103:23 105:18
107:11 109:9 114:7
115:10 129:14,16
186:21
applications 199:20
246:2
applied 218:22
applies 137:24
138:1 183:12,17
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[apply - attorney]
apply 50:24 51:12
53:23 71:18 72:20
72:24 91:14 94:20
95:3 103:24 153:1
205:20
applying 104:18
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66:10 70:5
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67:20
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250:16
arc 162:19 163:17
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archival 171:15
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archive 177:7,22
223:10 227:16

archived 163:14
archives 154:19
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164:14,17 168:23
177:24 185:25
189:7 191:16
192:19 209:3,6
223:15 224:21
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232:3,8,14
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91:12 95:21 114:6
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areas 11:22 114:2
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asking 42:15 43:4,7
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168:1
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168:12 171:18,19
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assignments 112:14
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assist 214:22
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associate 11:12
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associated 71:23
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association 1:7,17
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assumes 56:19
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assuming 87:23
114:12 159:6 165:1
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assumption 95:8
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astm 1:5 2:5 9:3
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153:19 175:7
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214:11 221:18
232:2
attachment 147:8
188:4,6
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attend 26:2 28:1,4
76:1 205:21 233:15
233:19 234:3,11
attention 158:21
attorney 100:7
247:20 250:13,13
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[attractive - body]
attractive 76:20
audio 7:15
authentic 235:11
authenticate 82:23
109:20,25 234:19
235:2
authenticating
235:6
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182:14,17 184:3,4
184:16 185:5 197:4
201:23 210:18
211:1,4,6,7 220:3,5
239:23

awareness 16:20,20
b
b 1:5,16 3:6 82:20
99:17,18 112:1
148:11 165:5,6
171:17,19 172:21
b31.1 231:7,8,10
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33:4 39:18 48:3,12
54:19 67:6 88:18
125:3 135:7 147:12
153:13 160:25
161:21,24 177:1
189:6 192:10
193:17 211:21
212:8 228:7 234:18
234:24
background 51:1
74:4 99:11
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badly 84:3
baio 99:15
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51:22
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71:10 73:6
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120:3,13
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34:1,8,11,24 35:7
35:13 37:23,24 38:4
38:5,7 56:3 60:13
67:22 69:14,15,17
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71:2,7,20 72:6,25
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ballot's 67:19
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56:13,22 59:15
60:17 61:4,7,8 63:5
63:23 68:2,20

balloting 33:7 57:11
61:18
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bar 70:15
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50:25 53:16,16
64:14 73:13 95:11
102:9,14 106:20
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125:12,13 132:4,7
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134:3 136:3,4,19
146:3 147:11,22
151:22 152:18,20
152:22 157:15,18
158:11 163:21
164:5,22,23 170:6
171:3 172:10
185:16 188:14,19
191:20 196:8
197:10 202:18,23
224:10,25 225:2,23
227:3,21 228:4,9
229:13,22 230:3
236:18 242:12
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233:2
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70:16 80:6 86:21
89:23 94:25 95:4,14
99:17 101:24 102:6
102:11 113:8 118:7

119:14,25 123:1
125:14 127:12,12
128:4,17 130:7,14
138:7 160:25
165:18 174:8
180:17 182:10
184:25 186:18
213:14,19 220:13
222:8 226:9
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27:7 39:25 48:25
49:4 75:2 100:22
117:17 119:14
125:25 126:23
127:1,2 134:19
135:5 140:3,5
175:22 176:2,19
177:5 178:18 179:8
184:25 188:6 191:3
193:18 201:6,13
207:4 213:15
217:10 218:13
219:18 221:23
222:9,11,13 237:13
243:4,8,9,18,19
244:10
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binding 83:13,23
84:6
blank 112:23
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board 54:9,10
bockius 2:3
body 54:5 56:12
60:10
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[bold - change]
bold 238:2
book 25:18 26:13,15
171:21 172:15
bookmarking 80:16
boston 1:21 7:11
bottom 97:8 126:5
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109:18,23 110:10
111:12,17 112:7
120:22 124:5 125:4
148:14 153:3,5,16
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211:25 212:9
234:16,25 235:20
236:3,7,8 243:2,17
246:5 247:10,15
briefly 78:7 234:17
bring 24:24 25:3,13
73:7 214:21

bringing 55:11
brings 15:17 18:24
24:14,20
broad 14:20,21
44:23 137:24
243:22
brought 99:2 201:24
226:1
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228:20
business 125:22
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131:6 142:20 143:9
143:23 145:20
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149:18 150:5,13,23
151:8,19 152:1,7
153:20 156:18
209:7 223:7 226:15
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c
c 7:1 148:2,12
california 2:9,12,13
call 20:22 23:4,19
23:24 25:17 26:5,7
58:3 65:9 76:1
92:20 97:24 100:7,8
111:2 116:15
120:20 132:3
139:11 140:18
165:22 174:15,16
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200:14 203:12
205:11 211:15
230:9 241:14
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239:9,10

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23:5 26:6 41:16
42:7 43:10,11 83:16
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164:21 167:14
169:5 173:7,16
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198:18 199:3,8,16
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227:9 233:24
243:15
caption 7:12
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30:6,9,18,20 32:6
36:22 54:24 55:4,8
56:6 135:10
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149:10
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220:9
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62:21 63:2 64:13
75:20 89:23 100:12
109:15 114:20
118:14 125:25
144:18 149:10
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172:20 184:7,19
185:5 186:21
199:10 201:25
215:22 225:14
229:25 235:3,17,25
236:2 240:22 241:7

cases 39:11 59:11,13
66:20,23 75:22
159:18 180:23
204:21
catch 226:14
categories 24:22
50:19,19 51:23,25
52:2 53:20,23
101:20 104:14
212:24
category 50:15
51:24 53:5,7,17,18
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241:16,17,20
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126:17
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ceo 152:12
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101:12,12 134:2
196:11
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115:15
certify 250:6,12
cetera 26:12 75:16
76:11 98:7
chain 176:21 177:2
177:4
chair 20:3,3 27:15
134:7
chairs 27:20 50:7
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200:6
challenged 226:1
chance 9:17 31:13
change 13:13 29:3,5
29:5 34:14 35:4
36:22 38:25 57:3,16
60:11 61:10,23 62:1
70:5 71:11 75:6
137:1,10 138:17
148:18 149:2,3
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[change - combination]
155:22 177:11
191:22 194:23
195:20,22 210:18
211:11,23 232:21
233:11,16 244:5
changed 136:25
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changes 28:7,10,13
28:16,17,18,19,20
28:23,23 29:12 30:7
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32:7 33:1,18 35:24
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37:16 54:21,24 55:8
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57:20 58:5,8 59:5,8
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217:7 234:9 237:9
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140:6
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212:11 214:1,9
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225:15
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149:12
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13:15,19,23 21:20
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23:6
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7:5 9:4 10:14
249:12
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circle 10:16
circuit 162:19
163:17,23 164:3
circulate 33:20
166:5
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112:13 118:19
207:20
clarification 44:10
45:11,17 50:17
173:17 239:8

clarified 60:12
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27:16,21 53:13
62:15 116:17
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190:23 203:13
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218:24 219:2 245:1
246:9
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157:14 175:24
click 102:25 103:6
103:10
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89:10
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58:11 59:20 60:24
62:12 80:1,2 118:4
121:4,17 122:25
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131:16 135:23,25
137:19 146:1,5,8,12
151:21 154:1
157:11 158:16,17
158:18 159:10,22
160:14,18,20,21,25
161:4,7,9,14,15,16
162:3,11,12,25
163:18 164:1 170:2
171:9,16 173:5,13
173:20,22 178:13
178:20,24 179:10
179:18,22 180:6,16
181:6 182:19 183:9
183:14 185:13
186:20 188:16

191:16 192:18,25
202:13 203:6
206:24 207:8 208:7
209:4 210:20,21
223:4,16 226:7,11
229:20 232:22
236:16,20 239:11
239:12,14,15,22
240:3,5 241:5,19
243:7
codes 12:1 13:22
14:24 15:1,3,8,16
16:22 23:9 24:23
28:13,20 36:1 65:25
66:4 77:20,22 79:12
81:4,12 82:16 83:6
83:11 84:14 85:17
86:1,6 87:1 88:9,24
89:14 90:8,24 91:16
92:7,13,15 93:4
94:22 99:20 119:1
119:12,16 120:25
123:8,11,15,19
137:25 175:19
176:14 177:25
178:2 181:8 182:5
182:12,14 183:8,22
198:1,7 199:14
204:3 205:5 220:18
222:8 226:4 230:12
230:13 234:19
235:2,12 239:10
244:17 245:8,20
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138:3
collect 90:21
collection 157:8
158:5,9
college 10:25 11:2
colonel 233:4
color 236:23
columbia 1:2
column 241:6
combination 16:6
29:16 55:16 56:4
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[combine - completely]
combine 213:1
combined 73:17
come 16:11 32:23
43:2 62:8,24 65:6
68:12,12,15 159:19
159:21 172:17
174:25 179:22
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234:18
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239:11
commencing 1:23
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68:11 93:10,25 96:8
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132:1,13,13,22,24
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166:16,22,23
167:10,19 168:2,12
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172:1,8,17,20
178:22 185:12,14
185:24 186:2
188:10,12 191:15
191:17 192:17,20
193:1,9 194:10,15
194:25 196:3,5
200:8 205:17
208:22 212:12,18
219:11 222:19
245:12,13

commentary 80:15
50:6,20,25 51:17
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55:15 56:3,5,10,14
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64:12,17,20 65:11
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63:22 64:22 65:7,20
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131:24 144:9,10,15
67:1,9,18,20,22,24
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68:1,13,14,16,19,21
154:4,7,23 155:13
68:22 69:1,2,11,12
155:14,17,20 156:8
69:17 70:9,15 71:8
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71:11 72:5,14,23
160:1,2,4,11 164:24
73:6,14,20,22 74:7
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76:2,5,10 77:4,9
167:23 168:3,7,9
103:22,25 104:21
179:3 180:2,7,9,13
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185:16 187:11
109:9 114:6,24
189:11,22 191:21
115:5,6,10 129:8,10
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130:4 131:15
213:3,10,20 217:18
133:10,13,14,18,22
220:18 222:17
134:1 143:16 148:5
224:13
155:15,18,21 157:2
commercial 12:17
158:14,18 159:22
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172:25 177:17
196:13 205:3
179:25 186:19
223:18 250:21
194:8,13 199:19
committed 39:24
200:4 203:25
committee 12:6 16:1
205:21,22,23 210:2
16:2,7 20:1 25:1,16
216:10,20 217:6,17
25:17,22 26:9,10
217:20 233:15,16
27:10,15,20,22 28:2
233:17,20,21 234:3
28:8 29:5,21,23
234:5,6,7,12 239:5
30:3,7,22 31:1,5,11
239:17,19,20
33:11,13,19,22,24
240:16 241:10
34:3,6,12,20,24
244:22
35:1,2 36:4,7,8,11
committee's 29:17
36:15 37:19,23
55:23
38:25 39:14,19
committees 12:7
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[completely - copyright]
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completeness
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compliance 32:2,11
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compliant 171:11
comply 56:24 159:7
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conferred 207:25

confidential 164:18
confirm 95:18
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conflicting 32:19
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[copyright - defendant's]
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copyrights 112:14
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corporate 80:9
corporation 240:25
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corps 224:23 225:19
correct 31:20 34:14
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data 71:23,24 72:9
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[defendants - discussing]
defendants 1:10
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degree 11:4,7,18,19
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discussion 78:15
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[eei - example]
eei 241:11
effect 216:5
efficient 235:19
efforts 220:15
eight 214:18 215:8,9
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either 9:20 35:4
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example 14:3,5,8
17:4,23 18:4,13,15
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[example - feel]
18:22 19:1,19 23:4
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feel 141:9
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[fenwick - forms]
fenwick 2:11 8:11
fenwick.com 2:14
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forms 32:5 63:17
65:5,11 100:5
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[forms - guess]
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[guidance - include]
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[include - issue]
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169:2,14,21 172:1,4
200:15 202:3
interpretations
49:25
interrupted 115:23
interrupters 163:17
163:24 164:3
interruption 115:21
115:24 162:20
intervention 214:13
interviews 14:3
16:14 22:4 24:1,5,7
introduced 162:20
investigative 72:12
invoice 181:20
invoke 47:21
involve 14:14
involved 16:21 21:9
61:12,16 63:1 92:10
105:17 141:10
involvement 94:2
involves 51:3 54:7
119:9
involving 152:20
isa 209:9,11,11,14
ish 213:23
issue 71:23 72:15
109:15 112:6 184:2
185:1 208:4 235:3,9
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[issue - legal]
235:16,24 236:2
issued 230:7
issues 20:8 67:21
160:12 234:4 246:9
issuing 243:5
italicized 169:2,15
206:17 209:17,18
210:15,19 211:11
italics 206:2,4,9
item 146:3 147:12
163:21 165:6,6
170:4,25 171:3,5,19
172:4,21 187:23
188:5 223:20 228:2
items 152:20 187:21
236:21
j
j 2:3
james 117:18 148:2
jeanette 1:18 7:7
250:4
jim 152:11,12,15
158:6,11
jkfee 2:5
job 10:19 28:1 31:6
31:8 62:5 69:15
141:20 215:3
jobs 216:7
john 240:24
john's 241:4
joined 10:23
jurisdiction 17:8
18:4,6 84:17 190:14
195:12
jurisdictions 17:19
52:6 121:11,12
k
kaufman 143:13
keep 21:15 35:4
40:18 46:14 77:14
77:17 151:12 162:9
162:14 163:3
keeps 126:14

kennedy 229:14
kevin 2:3 9:2
keyed 149:6
keying 217:7
kind 17:21 39:7
101:24 155:17
know 17:8 21:16
24:9 60:22 61:11
63:8 78:11 84:13
86:22 92:8 98:20,21
98:22 106:22 107:3
107:14,15 119:11
131:11 143:13,14
143:14,15 148:2,4,7
154:20 158:12
160:19 162:24
172:14 182:18
186:5 188:16 193:7
196:10 201:16
203:8 209:13
219:16 222:12,13
222:20,22 236:22
knowing 174:20
knowledge 17:10
30:4 32:25 72:24
74:6 81:2 83:3,8,20
84:11 90:18 91:10
91:11 92:9,24 95:20
100:22 106:13
107:9 114:14
117:17 118:10,11
119:6,7,14 125:25
126:3,23 127:1,2
134:17,19 161:12
164:22,23 165:3
175:22 177:5
178:18 179:8
184:25 186:17,18
188:7,19 193:18
197:11,14,17,19
198:20 200:17,21
200:23 201:6,13,15
201:21 202:6,9
214:25 224:10
228:15 231:7,11,17

237:13 242:24
243:4,8,10,18,19
244:10 250:8
known 85:22 88:1
135:24 231:7,10
knows 112:17
180:19 182:9
184:12,24 190:10
230:22 231:16
l
labor 52:15
lacked 144:5
lacking 233:2
lacks 20:17 29:1
30:1 56:19 64:6
85:20 92:18 108:17
138:6 144:3 159:15
163:20
laid 38:6
land 29:19 55:17
68:19
language 33:7,9
34:13 38:6 55:18,22
62:8 64:10,18 65:23
66:3,5,8 68:11,20
69:18 79:3,19 84:22
84:23 105:7 106:15
106:22 107:4,16,25
108:13 109:2,11
110:5,16 113:12
116:24 126:5,6
127:18 129:21
142:11 154:3
160:20 162:10,11
168:11,15 169:3,15
170:20,22 172:17
173:25 174:9 179:3
187:15 193:7,10,12
196:18 206:2
209:17,18 211:12
212:13 214:3
215:18 216:4
223:24 224:1,6,6
232:25 242:23

243:1,12 245:15,18
245:24
large 26:23 72:11,11
135:8 144:14
larger 12:22,24
215:12
largest 80:2,6
214:23 215:4
late 78:10
law 99:4 184:6,18
245:9,20
laws 249:2
lawsuit 201:14,24
235:9
lawyers 112:10
lay 42:15
layout 139:16
layouts 141:7
lead 74:23 139:7
learn 15:4,4
lee 196:10 202:11,21
223:17
left 44:12 238:2
241:6
legal 64:6,24 83:16
84:9 89:3 92:21
94:24 95:18 98:12
98:14,17,23 99:6
105:11,25 106:5,11
106:19 108:6
110:23 119:10
120:21 137:5
140:18,22 164:21
167:14 169:6 173:7
173:16 174:16
176:16 178:15
184:22 192:6 197:9
197:16 198:5,12,18
199:3,9,16 200:2,15
201:2,12 202:3,7,16
205:7 206:12,15,20
211:15,19 220:21
233:25 243:16
244:21 245:11,22
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[legal's - marked]
legal's 141:22
legislative 170:9,12
170:18,21,24
legislature 170:19
170:21
length 191:2 210:1
letter 70:6 176:23
letters 241:12,17
level 15:20,21 16:4
24:16 61:19 65:17
72:2 155:10 162:14
218:5
levels 11:13
lewis 2:3 9:3
liaison 12:10 27:24
28:16 30:6 31:9
36:21 37:16,21
52:25 55:3 60:24
62:12 63:10 68:18
69:5 200:4
liaisons 28:3 59:7
62:4
library 12:4,8
137:24 190:5 191:5
licenses 118:25
licensing 119:8
lieutenant 233:4
life 74:12,23 75:15
188:16 232:21
light 241:1,11
limit 124:2 234:15
limitations 80:12
limited 80:10
123:25
line 102:25 133:12
141:19,19 146:3
165:24 171:3 191:8
241:18
lines 147:7
link 103:11
links 121:13
list 133:22 134:1
195:5 239:1 240:10
listed 225:18

listening 8:16
lists 90:14 238:17,22
239:4 240:16
litigation 7:9 100:3
112:4 118:3 222:21
little 60:21 119:7
184:15
llp 2:3,7,11
local 17:7 52:6
72:13 242:2,3
location 26:11
locations 237:8
log 187:10
logistics 26:17,25
27:1
logo 95:11
long 9:20 12:16,19
35:18,19 43:25
44:23 47:11 105:16
longstanding
133:10
look 48:3 60:2 72:14
78:23 84:24 94:15
127:2,17,23 130:13
130:14 136:13,14
141:8 143:25 144:2
145:22 146:9,22
147:4 149:20,24
150:7,15,18 156:8
156:12 185:22
207:14,15 212:12
236:13
looking 18:4 99:13
162:10 188:7 216:2
219:5 229:14,17
230:1
looks 49:5 79:6
93:21 97:5 101:24
102:4 116:19 126:4
126:8,16 129:1,4
134:13,19,24
143:11 156:20
163:15 223:1,3
loss 14:23 15:2
71:22,24 72:10

74:12,13,13 75:13
75:15,15
losses 15:4,9
lot 18:21,25 75:19
81:10
lots 62:24 76:16
141:6
lunch 124:6,11
m
m 38:12,12 102:5
116:18 241:22,22
241:24
magnitude 135:8
208:20 213:2
mail 2:5,10,14 21:16
89:17,21,24 90:12
90:14 98:1 176:22
mailings 216:10
mails 21:12
main 40:3 73:18,19
maintain 151:10
161:20 177:2,4,19
maintained 127:14
128:18 130:9,21
143:23 146:19
147:1,19 150:4,12
150:22 151:18,25
152:6 153:20 154:3
154:16 156:4 158:7
163:11 164:13
209:5 223:5
maintainers 52:9
maintaining 178:4
maintains 125:21
128:5 131:5 142:19
143:9 145:20
149:17 151:7
156:17 157:23
177:24
major 141:4 162:15
162:18 163:4
204:10 244:2
majority 204:21
217:4

making 28:8 30:8
38:22 54:8 100:1
158:16,17 159:10
159:22 217:8
239:11,15,22 240:3
241:5
malamud 2:20 8:17
8:18
management 11:20
12:7 22:7 23:3,21
117:14
manager 178:9
214:20 215:10
mandatory 245:15
245:18,24
manual 32:2,11 37:6
50:7 56:25 60:8
69:16 137:23 138:1
138:7,21 159:3,8,13
159:17,18,20
160:12 171:6,10
195:10 216:15
manually 149:6
216:12
manuals 137:23
manufacturer
241:22,23,24
manufacturers
14:16
maracas 1:18 7:7
250:4
marcelo 156:24
margin 62:21
marked 48:13 93:16
94:5 95:22 103:18
117:9,11 125:18
126:9 127:4,9 128:1
128:10,15 130:5,17
131:1 134:11
142:16 143:5,19
145:16 146:15,23
147:15 149:13
150:1,19 151:14
152:3 153:14 156:1
156:14 157:6 158:3
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[marked - morning]
163:7 164:10
169:22 171:12
185:8,20 187:4
191:10 192:12
195:24 203:1
208:24 222:23
223:11,20 224:16
226:18 227:11
228:24 229:5
231:23 232:4,10,16
marketing 23:13
90:15 119:9
marking 236:9
marshal 72:13
marshals 14:17 17:6
17:15 75:25
maryland 11:8
massachusetts 1:21
1:22 7:11 10:16,18
84:18 250:1,5
material 63:17
97:24 101:15
105:14 113:4
148:23,23 149:2
166:8 169:13 170:3
171:25 174:22
175:7,8,13,17,19
176:4,12,25 177:15
178:12 181:24
187:15 188:24
189:17,20 197:22
197:24 198:23
199:24 212:14
217:6 219:13
221:13,19 223:23
224:2 225:15,25
228:3 229:12
233:17 243:23
materials 1:4 7:13
157:21 163:5
165:11 172:11
197:12 212:20
214:12 217:18
matter 51:17 198:23
243:20

matters 250:8
mean 12:8 14:7 18:3
21:3 26:5,17 28:10
30:8,17,20 34:6,23
38:13,15 39:13
51:20 68:5,25 95:13
97:13 120:18 129:5
155:4 162:8,18
177:12 206:6 230:7
230:11 241:2
meaning 68:21
101:10
means 151:12
170:12,22 206:18
219:5 237:11,17
meant 120:23,24
194:1
measure 211:16
mechanism 203:18
mechanisms 181:12
media 14:3 16:14
24:1,4,5,5,7 26:9
190:14,19,21
meet 9:17 17:6 67:4
235:23
meeting 9:20 10:1
20:23 25:4,18,18,19
26:5,6,8,11,13,24
27:1,3,8,10,10,14
32:8 38:7 63:1 67:7
69:13,25 70:3 76:10
110:23 130:4
205:21 217:21
233:15 234:6
meetings 25:2,7,17
25:23 26:1,14,16,20
26:22 27:5,19,22
28:2,3 76:2 205:22
217:17 233:18,20
233:21 234:3,12
meets 36:4
member 19:11,16
19:17,22,23,25
50:24 70:14 84:15
85:15 89:15 92:13

103:23 104:11,14
104:19,19,21
105:12 114:6
117:25 129:14,16
130:1 133:10
143:16 148:4 157:2
158:13,16,17,18
186:19,19,23,24
199:20 205:22,23
members 16:7 26:9
29:22 30:3 34:25
35:1 50:7,14,18,20
50:22 52:16,19 53:2
53:8,15,15 54:10,12
56:14 57:5 63:11
65:1,4,24 68:13,22
70:10 72:5,24 73:14
73:20,22 74:7 75:17
114:24 129:9,10,13
129:20 133:3,13,14
133:14,17,18 134:7
159:22,23 179:25
186:25 202:10
203:19 205:3 234:1
234:7,11 239:5
membership 19:5
51:8,13 53:21
103:25 104:20
115:5,6
memberships 19:20
mental 10:8
mentioned 16:14,15
31:18 53:20 64:8,12
72:17 136:14 140:8
195:10 201:14
212:10,24
menu 104:11,13
met 207:24
method 64:14 136:5
235:15
microphones 7:17
middle 79:4 97:10
103:1
mind 18:19 195:13
244:12

minimum 15:19,21
16:4 24:17
mining 80:18
minor 204:10
minute 16:11 153:4
200:19
minutes 77:16,18
85:8 150:9 157:19
205:25
mischaracterizes
29:1 46:7 65:3
66:19 68:24 105:10
110:20 166:19
169:5 174:15 179:7
202:15 218:10
misrepresents
157:14
mission 2:8 14:22
67:10 74:11,17,20
75:2 76:19,19 78:4
120:6,9,11,12
misspoke 184:14
misstate 151:1
mitch 2:19 8:13
mix 157:16,20
mm 34:22
mockup 100:10
101:3
model 215:20
modifications
107:13,15,24
modified 32:14 60:5
60:7 61:17 62:18,20
62:22
modify 33:1 70:18
155:16
modifying 74:22
moment 54:19 96:2
moments 93:14
monday 9:25
morgan 2:3 9:2
morganlewis.com
2:5
morning 7:2 9:11,12
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[motion - nfpa]
motion 38:14,18,20
38:21 39:2,6,7,11
39:20 40:9,17,19
41:2 70:3
motions 38:23 39:3
39:9,22,25 40:1,3,4
40:5 41:10,22,22
42:19,20,21,22
43:15,17 44:14 70:1
motivate 72:18
motivation 71:14
76:12,17,25 77:2
motivations 76:16
move 64:5,23 69:14
70:1,5,10 71:2,8,12
71:19 72:6,21,25
73:10 87:7 120:11
169:12
moved 62:17 190:9
moves 57:16 69:20
mto.com 2:10
mullen's 78:5,18
multipart 51:15
multiple 44:2,6 45:9
45:24 110:8 123:16
145:14 162:4
207:12,13
multistep 40:7
multitude 14:25
15:17 24:14 123:16
munger 2:7 8:21
n
n 1:18 3:1 7:1 38:12
name 7:6 10:12,14
99:15,18,24 143:15
152:11 196:11
240:16 241:4
named 13:14 250:7
names 134:6 240:11
241:12,19
napa 126:17
narrative 41:17
42:7 43:11 44:23

nation 20:8
nation's 74:25
national 1:6,16 7:8
8:22,25 18:23 19:25
80:1 121:4,16
130:11,14 131:16
135:22,24 137:18
137:25 145:25
146:5,8,12 151:20
154:1 157:10
158:18 160:14,17
160:24 161:4,6
163:18 170:1 171:9
171:16 173:5,12,20
173:22 178:13,20
178:24 179:10,18
179:20,21 180:6,16
181:5 182:19 183:9
183:13 185:13
186:20 191:16
192:18,25 199:4
203:6 206:24 207:7
208:7 209:4 210:20
210:21 223:3,16
236:15,19 239:12
239:14 240:5 243:6
nature 59:24
navy 11:1,6
near 102:2 115:18
242:6
nec 58:22,24 60:14
62:2,9,12,21 159:17
161:18,25 162:21
163:15 171:10
174:1 185:2 191:22
237:8,14 238:11
necessarily 106:20
need 15:15 65:23
70:17 71:10 78:2
89:19 108:4 120:3
125:11 148:18
173:17 195:21
215:1 245:14
needed 66:2 140:14
140:15 162:24

215:11
needs 15:6 70:16
72:16
neither 250:12
neutral 65:19
never 121:8 140:21
200:5 225:25
new 12:5 17:24,24
17:25,25 18:1,2
32:14 39:17 61:14
61:20 62:19 65:13
66:22 74:21,21
144:10 155:11,14
161:8,8 162:25
170:4 171:1,4 174:5
185:14,17,18 186:1
186:3 187:24 204:8
205:1 216:23
newer 209:12
nfpa 2:9,18 3:9,11
3:13,14,16,17 5:12
5:13,14,15,17,18,19
5:20,21,23 6:5,6,8,9
6:11,12,13,14,15,17
6:18,20,21 10:19,21
10:24 11:9,24 13:2
13:2,12 14:11,20
15:16,25 16:13,18
18:7 19:9 20:14
21:20 22:3,9,14,21
22:22 24:14,19,24
25:3,13 26:5,13
27:3,5,8,12,18
30:10 31:25 32:21
32:24 37:3 49:12
50:10,18,24 51:21
52:16,19,22 54:7,8
54:12,23 55:2 59:21
60:15,24 63:10,18
64:4 65:1,4,10,16
65:23,25 66:3,4,25
70:21,24 73:14
74:11 75:22 76:3,6
76:19,22 77:9,21
79:20,23,25 80:1,2

80:8,14 81:1,18,23
82:16 83:14 84:7
89:17 90:12,21
92:15 96:8 97:11
98:9 101:5,8,16,17
104:21 105:13,16
105:17 106:24,25
107:4,8 108:14
110:17 111:4,5
112:13,24 113:9,12
113:23 116:6,8
117:19 118:1,3,19
118:24 119:11
120:7,10 121:1
123:2,15,20 125:8
125:15,21 126:2,4,6
126:18,20,25
127:13 128:5,18
130:8,20 131:5
135:13,14 137:23
138:17 142:19
143:1,8,22 144:4,22
145:19 146:19
147:1,19 149:17
150:4,12,22 151:7
151:18,25 152:6,12
152:14 153:19
154:3,5,8,16 156:4
156:17,22 157:4,23
158:6 159:16,17,25
161:8,13 162:1
163:10 164:13
165:7,9 166:3,21
167:7,9 168:1,2,6
168:18 172:14
173:3,10 174:23,23
175:12,16,17 176:3
176:5,11 177:2,19
178:11 179:4,24
180:24 181:7 182:4
186:13,24 189:9,21
189:25 190:15
191:6 193:13,21,22
194:17,19,24 195:4
197:25 198:6,16
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[nfpa - objection]
199:13 200:9,10,23
201:7,16,24 202:10
203:14 205:3,8
207:18,20 208:16
209:5 210:25
212:24 213:7,12,18
220:15,22 221:1,10
221:20 222:1,6
223:5 224:13,20
225:2,17 226:4,7,10
226:23 227:15
229:3,9,16,22,24
230:12,16,20 231:6
231:12,13,19 232:3
232:9,15 233:9,23
235:2,7 239:5
243:24
nfpa's 14:1 18:12
50:15,22 58:12 64:2
77:20 79:12 82:16
82:23 83:12 84:15
85:17,25 86:25
88:24 89:14,15 90:8
90:22,23 91:16
92:13 93:4,24 94:22
95:7,15 96:20 98:15
100:20 114:18
117:12,14 119:1,12
119:21 120:18
121:5,18 122:19
123:7 126:12,24
138:4 156:11 157:9
159:13 161:3 171:6
174:6,11 175:19
176:14 178:13
183:5,8,22 184:5,17
187:11 194:8
202:12 212:10
220:18 224:7
232:23
nine 52:1 215:9
nitmam 40:8,15
nitmam's 38:12
non 65:1 145:24
165:8

normal 95:1 137:6
178:21 242:13
normally 100:18
146:6,7
notary 1:19 250:5
250:21
note 7:15 97:10
126:1 144:12 156:6
158:25 159:5 188:1
191:7 224:2
noted 45:2,16
134:22
notes 96:23 187:12
notice 26:7 38:14
40:8 112:1 118:7
141:5 148:21
180:18 181:16
182:8 190:9 191:9
199:6 200:14 202:5
242:5
notices 181:21
216:11
notify 181:7,25
182:4
notifying 181:12
npc 20:1
ntsb 72:13
number 76:17
111:12,21 112:10
112:11 117:25
125:10 159:9 175:4
175:21 181:12
183:1,4 190:25
208:20 213:19
214:23 215:5,12,25
224:7 235:2
numbers 102:8,9
111:1,2,10,15,22
112:3 144:15 154:6
158:22 207:18
235:11,17 236:10
numerical 102:14
numerous 151:3,5
153:25

nw 2:4
195:3 197:8 198:4
nxk 101:5,19,23,25
198:11,17 199:15
200:1,12 202:14
o
203:11,16 204:5,14
o 7:1 99:17,18
205:6 206:7,11,19
116:18
207:1,9,23 208:11
oath 7:21 9:15 250:9
208:18 209:22
object 15:10 23:2
210:4,13,22 211:14
24:18 25:14 27:4
218:1 220:19
28:5,25 29:14,25
225:22 227:2,8
30:21 31:7,13,21
228:14 229:19
32:4 34:9,15 45:14
230:8,14 231:14
54:3 55:1 58:13
240:7,15 243:14,25
75:8 76:15 79:14
244:20 245:10,21
85:19 86:2,12 87:16
objecting 42:9
87:22 90:16 91:24
235:25
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objection 15:23 16:5
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protection 1:6,17
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44:22,25 45:3,7,13
45:15,19 46:3,5,9
46:10,12,16 47:3,4
47:5,8,19 48:4
53:13 59:24 63:7
64:8,14 74:2 75:4,9
84:3 86:8,9,14,18
87:3 91:3,6,10,21
91:21 92:2,19 110:3
110:7 111:8 112:16
112:19 115:23
118:5 121:15
122:11 126:11
127:22 128:24
132:19,21 140:19
141:11 142:13
143:7 145:6 148:13
154:13,15 155:2,9
157:13 162:7
164:18 166:17,18
168:21 173:7,9,15
176:19 178:17
182:2,7 184:15
185:3,7 192:5
198:13 200:5,17,18
201:1,4 202:2,17
203:11,17 207:24
211:15,21 217:22

217:23,25 218:2,12
218:21,21,24 219:2
219:17 220:13
231:15,21 238:21
238:25 240:8 241:3
243:15 246:17,22
246:25 247:19
questioned 226:1
questioning 184:9
191:8
questions 12:1
15:11 42:6 47:21,23
55:12 78:16 127:6
127:11 128:3,12
176:17 183:13
205:10 207:25
243:22 246:8 247:9
247:13
quick 48:25 53:12
quincy 10:18
quite 31:23 47:18
135:4,9 154:25
quote 242:13
r
r 7:1 116:18
range 111:18
ranges 235:8
ranking 117:25
ray 240:24 241:7
raynham 10:16
reach 98:3 101:11
reached 246:3
reaches 102:24
read 69:4,6 77:21,24
79:12 80:25 81:17
81:22 82:15 83:11
84:14 85:3,5,9,17
85:21,25 86:6,11,25
87:10,15,24 88:23
89:14,19 90:7,11,23
91:5,6,16 92:6,12
93:3,13 94:21
119:12,15,18,21,25
120:1,7,14,16 121:3
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[read - rehn]
121:5,14,16,17
122:18,19 123:4,7
123:10,12,18,21
124:1,2 172:4
211:21
reading 80:15
152:22
ready 60:13 61:17
217:9
realize 204:23
realizing 195:21
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23:17 55:20 56:21
reason 10:8 43:5
65:16 95:4,13 97:15
134:3,8 135:6
137:22 163:3 204:7
211:11
reasoning 190:4
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74:4 203:22
recall 12:17 20:4
24:11,12 109:2,5,11
110:5,13,15 112:25
122:23 126:6 141:1
141:13,24 142:2,3,5
142:7,10 143:18
193:22 196:16,19
196:22,24 222:1
227:17 237:16
246:12,16,21
receive 10:5 11:17
77:2 143:3 205:10
212:25
received 112:13
128:6 130:10
136:12 156:9
177:20 187:19
190:12 201:2,12
207:21
receives 34:12 143:1
recirculated 34:2,5
34:19
recognition 77:8

recognize 78:25
79:1,10 93:19 94:8
94:12 95:25 99:19
131:4,9 142:18
143:8,22 145:19
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149:16 150:3,21
151:2,4,16 152:5,11
153:17 154:2,15
156:3,10,16 157:8
158:5 163:10
164:12 196:11
209:16
recognized 150:11
recollection 12:20
20:12 21:5 40:1
136:3 140:3 196:14
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recommend 167:21
recommendation
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194:22 232:20,24
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recommendations
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record 7:3,17 8:7
10:13 30:24 32:6
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57:25 88:14,18
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164:8 170:7 177:10
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211:2 212:1,4,8
228:23 234:17,21
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recorded 7:4 31:9
reflect 31:10 131:17
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55:19,20
reflecting 130:10
recordkeeping
reflection 37:18
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refrigeration 1:8
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131:5 151:25 152:6 regarding 74:15
161:21,23 176:1,11
98:9 115:12 118:25
177:3 178:4 188:14
130:10 174:24
redirect 247:14
189:10,19,22
redline 242:7,10,11 regional 162:16,23
242:15,16,20
register 83:6 89:16
reduce 15:2,9 74:12
89:20,25 92:4,23
reduced 250:10
registered 1:19
reducing 14:23
46:15 250:4
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registering 89:21
refer 18:17 207:25
registrants 90:19
230:12,16,18,19,25 registration 90:14
231:18 236:24
regulate 50:9
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regulation 18:8
reference 133:2
regulations 3:9
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49:1,3,6,14,20 50:2
189:16 209:9
50:3,4 51:21 137:3
210:11 229:15,17
194:8 244:3,9
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rehn 2:7 3:5 8:3,20
referenced 229:21
8:20 15:10,23 16:5
references 133:24
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172:5,7,15 175:8,9
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referencing 209:12
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referred 40:5
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26:21 27:4,6 28:5
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referring 17:22 81:7
35:25 36:20 38:2
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39:5,16 40:6,12,24
187:25 189:16,20
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198:25 199:10
42:25 43:9,22 44:4
206:8 210:15 224:3
44:8,18,22 45:3,6
236:10 237:5
45:12 46:2,6,15,18
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[rehn - request]
47:2,7,17 48:6
49:10,19 50:23
51:14 52:18 53:10
54:3,14 55:1,25
56:18 57:9,21 58:13
58:23 59:23 60:1,25
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67:15 68:3,23 69:22
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75:8 76:15 79:14
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91:7,20,23 92:1,17
93:5 94:23 96:3,12
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100:6,13 104:7
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107:1,5,20 108:1,17
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reimburses 75:23
reject 165:7,9
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rejected 228:12
relate 159:12
related 7:21 13:6
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relates 104:18 169:8
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relevant 235:12
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rely 39:23 71:6 95:2
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remain 37:17
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remove 164:7

render 243:16
rep 240:25
repeat 38:3 47:7,10
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reporter 1:19 7:7
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representation
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representative
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241:9
reproduction 80:17
98:6
request 91:12 98:22
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[requested - savings]
requested 24:6
233:4
requesting 190:2
requests 121:10
173:18 189:25
190:7,12,21,22
require 97:24 116:8
166:25 167:24
168:22 194:9,17,19
233:9
required 27:2 36:12
36:16 51:22 83:4
102:18,20 106:24
108:15 113:12
177:15 178:19
193:23 197:20
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29:8,11 56:6 67:2
69:3,4 74:22,23
163:16 164:2 194:6
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139:16 163:6 180:8
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245:2
requires 71:7
113:23 116:6
128:21 167:25
169:10 179:25
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80:15 195:1
researching 193:17
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residential 18:5
resides 91:12
resisting 43:5
resolved 170:20
resource 22:20,24
24:4
resources 214:22
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respect 23:24 25:16
25:22 28:17 81:17
116:6 126:11 127:6
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134:6,14 140:19
143:7 157:10 225:4
235:24 237:13
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responses 24:6 36:9
responsibilities
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responsibility 11:23
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30:6,23 32:23 95:21
108:6 141:17,22
responsible 12:12
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26:22 28:12 99:21
234:8 239:21 240:6
rest 40:10 42:15
restate 43:24 45:7
83:18 91:3 211:22
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34:19,20,23 35:9,13
38:17 73:24
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return 37:3 39:11
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returning 39:17
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revealing 201:1

revenue 78:3 120:4
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reverse 147:9 188:9
review 16:9 29:16
29:17 41:1,9 48:25
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revision 36:17,19
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138:15 177:22,24
192:21 193:2
revisions 36:12 57:4
61:20 234:13
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richard 131:11,13
132:5
right 24:17 56:7,7
56:25 96:16,25
115:2 124:5 126:16
131:23 158:25
165:4,23 221:8

224:4,24 237:2
239:3 241:22 242:6
243:2 245:5
rights 125:8 166:21
167:7,10 168:2,24
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52:22 67:9 70:20,23
80:23 186:14
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room 66:20
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rop 63:2 167:4
rules 50:4 70:2
153:1
run 27:18 181:5
running 27:13
s
s 3:6 7:1 38:12
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15:9,20,22 16:4
17:5,7,18,21,25,25
24:17 72:2,15 74:23
74:25 75:12,13,24
76:20 120:5,9
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196:6,12 213:14
223:18 232:21
sake 239:8
sale 120:10
sally 2:18 8:24
sample 104:5 113:9
238:12
san 2:9,13
savings 195:15

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[saying - small]
saying 46:4 67:3
68:7 155:22 167:25
says 79:19 97:10
102:4,6 154:4,7
159:3 163:22
166:20,22 167:8
170:19 171:1 186:9
186:10 190:18
222:14 223:23
229:20 238:5
240:25 242:7
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180:18 181:1,11
182:8,8,21 183:3,11
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191:8 200:13 202:4
230:9,15,21 231:15
231:20
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screen 96:6 100:1,15
113:8,17
scrolling 122:19
sdos 18:18
se 55:21 77:5 99:1
seat 187:3 240:17
second 13:22 32:10
36:17,19 38:3,7,8,9
38:11 39:1,10,21
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58:2,11,16,19,21
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102:23 126:20
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197:1
secondly 214:11
228:2
secretaries 55:20
section 19:17 101:4
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sector 20:3 76:7
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192:3,7

september 152:13
serve 16:17 54:1
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73:8 82:2 83:4,19
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six 136:21
size 26:25
skweres 170:1
slightly 48:22 61:24
136:12,14
slot 52:14,14,15
small 99:8
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[smaller - standards]
smaller 12:5,8,21,23
79:4 192:22
soak 47:11
social 26:8
society 1:3,7 7:12
solely 216:19
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somebody 99:14
103:12 104:23
121:3,16 122:18
129:6
someone's 96:23
soon 174:18 184:2
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172:19 174:1
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spent 20:15 217:5
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spokesman 13:24
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sprinkler 12:25 13:4
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square 152:17
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staff 12:10 27:12,13
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65:25 66:4,17 67:21
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staff's 61:5 69:15
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staffing 215:20
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stage 39:1 58:17
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stan 143:13,14
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stand 20:6 88:5
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standard 17:25 18:7
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start 13:10 39:14
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started 11:12,25
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starts 40:7 210:9
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state 10:12 17:8
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substantially 134:15
substantiate 195:6
substantiation
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tasks 218:6,8,8,20
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ten 20:18,19,25 21:1
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term 38:12 55:3
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terms 3:11 79:10,15
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today's 88:20 89:6
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202:18 217:7,12,18
221:6

veritext 7:8
version 109:6 113:1
113:18 160:13,14
160:17 161:8 207:3
223:2 242:13,15,18
242:20
versions 80:19
85:17,25 86:25
88:23 89:15 90:7,23
91:16 92:12 93:4
94:21 110:14
112:23,25 115:1
119:12 123:11
134:23 135:1,14
160:21 207:6 208:9
211:3,7,8
versus 7:13 102:12
129:1 137:3,4,13
210:10
vice 10:20 11:15
13:14,18 118:2
200:5
video 7:4,15 206:1
videographer 2:15
7:2 8:5 48:8,11
77:13,15 85:7 88:12
88:16 124:9 125:2
150:9 153:3,7,11
205:25 211:23
212:2,6 234:20,23
246:3 247:25
videotape 85:8
150:10
videotaped 1:16
view 21:7 22:24
23:3 29:3 83:6 96:6
97:4 101:7 113:9
139:12,23 188:11
228:11 245:13
viewing 24:21 94:3
visit 90:22
vital 67:8
voices 205:15
volume 214:21

volumes 145:13
volunteer 27:14
76:22,23
volunteers 16:1,2
76:21
vote 34:6,8,25 35:4
35:4 42:19 53:3
69:13,25 70:4 71:15
voted 35:3
votes 35:2,10
voting 33:24 57:16
vs 1:11
w
waive 84:16
walls 163:22
want 18:6 35:3
45:22 48:1 67:1
69:2,4,7 71:14,15
74:12 84:21 86:14
91:24 97:23 100:9
109:15,25 117:13
129:11 139:13
182:13,16 187:7
189:14 204:3,17
wanted 129:25
190:23
wants 47:11 48:3
191:21 227:23
warranted 194:22
washington 2:4
wasted 47:12,13
wasting 47:20
way 7:23 11:14
20:10 21:4 25:1
35:3 63:15 67:4,4
69:24 75:2 83:22
86:13,18 87:4,5
100:14 101:2 104:5
105:16 109:5
117:21 123:17
143:13 161:13,24
176:19 180:11
193:17 207:14
221:24 227:10

235:19 243:24
ways 15:7 16:16
24:2 68:9 99:9
123:16 134:23
135:17 137:7
207:12 214:7 221:6
239:14
we've 45:16 77:11
135:16 156:9 190:8
190:8 207:24
215:19 246:3
web 121:13
website 26:8 58:4,9
58:12 79:2 81:8
82:17,23 83:5,12
84:15 87:24 89:15
90:22 93:8,21,24
94:1,11 95:7,9,10
95:16 96:20,22 97:4
114:14,18 121:5,18
122:20 123:2
177:16 181:13
wednesday 1:22
weeks 35:19
wells 173:2
went 78:10,10
135:24 216:5
234:25
west 2:11 8:11
whereof 250:16
whispers 7:18
white 171:21 172:15
wholly 86:4
widgets 121:12
williams 191:20
192:1
window 79:4 102:3
wish 40:17 205:16
233:15
wished 233:6
wishes 26:1 40:15
203:19
withdraw 84:2
173:9 185:6
Page 39

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[witness - yup]
witness 8:2,8,23 9:5
15:12 31:13 46:8,22
78:24 82:9,21 83:1
85:6 86:13,17,21
88:25 91:9 96:5
107:6 112:17 118:8
118:9 119:4,5
123:24 127:7,16
128:8,13 130:24
131:9 147:22 151:2
153:23 157:12
163:13 164:21
176:17 178:16
180:19 182:9
183:11 184:10,11
184:12,23 187:7
190:10,21 191:14
192:16 196:2
200:16 202:5 203:4
209:2 211:17 223:1
223:14 224:19
226:12,21 227:14
229:2,8 230:22
231:16 232:1,7,13
232:19 243:16
247:19 250:11,16
witt 154:20
word 31:22 60:20
66:10 67:4,20
106:12 136:9
137:14 140:1
144:13 169:8
191:18,18,23 192:3
192:21 209:24,24
worded 56:6 60:9
60:16 94:15
wording 28:20,23
29:4,9,12,19,23
32:10 37:18 56:4,25
60:3 61:6,7 79:9
106:7 108:10
110:24 114:4
133:23 134:20
136:17,20,22,25
142:2,3 161:14

170:5
wordings 55:5
words 56:9 62:24
63:21,22 66:14
67:11,11,13 81:25
83:8 87:11 137:11
138:25 161:2
192:22 193:6 199:6
work 10:17,23 11:6
11:24 20:25 30:11
37:8,15 57:1 61:5
68:16 75:18 76:5
95:1 105:22 106:3
106:17,21 107:3
119:8 239:15,18
240:12,19
worked 11:13 60:4
60:6,12,20 61:16
62:3,7,8,22 149:9
working 10:21
18:23 20:7 28:9,9
33:16 56:5 64:2
65:20 130:3 200:3
workload 218:19
works 33:10 37:21
49:15 99:20 106:23
139:5 173:1 197:4
204:19 210:12,16
241:8
write 245:1
written 154:6
wrote 148:25 222:11
x
x 3:1,6 67:2 69:3
146:11 223:21
y
yeah 79:22 80:7
235:14
year 20:18,19 21:1,1
21:6,8 24:8 112:20
136:6 138:8 175:6
208:22 212:25
213:2,9,11,12,21,24
214:15 215:15

219:24
years 12:22 76:18
107:9 108:4 134:21
135:4,10 136:4
140:11 161:3 200:3
200:9 225:23
yesterday 78:6
yield 233:22
yup 223:22

Page 40
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Federal Rules o f Civil Procedure
Rule 30

(e) Review By the Witness; Changes .
(1) Review; Statement of Changes . On request by the
deponent or a party before the deposition is
completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days
after being notified by the officer that the
transcript or recording is available in which :
(A)

to review the transcript or recording; and

(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to
sign a statement listing the changes and the
reasons for making them .
(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer ' s Certificate .
The officer must note in the certificate prescribed
by Rule 30(f) (1)

whether a review was requested

and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent
makes during the 30 - day period .

DISCLAIMER :

THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY .
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1,
2014 .

PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP - TO - DATE INFORMATION .