AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 37

Page 1

1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
3 _____________________________
AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING ) Case No.
4 AND MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM
) 1:13-cv-01215
INTERNATIONAL;
) TSC-DAR
5
)
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION
)
6 ASSOCIATION, INC.; and
)
)
7 AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING, )
REFRIGERATING, AND AIR
)
8 CONDITIONING ENGINEERS,
)
)
9 Plaintiffs-Counterdefendants )
)
10 vs.
)
)
11 PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., )
Defendant-Counterclaimant )
12 ______________________________)
13
14 Videotaped Deposition of Mary H. Saunders
15
Washington, D.C.
16
August 15, 2019
17
10:16 a.m.
18
19 Reported by:
20 Bonnie L. Russo
21 Job No. 3461686
22 Pages 1 - 334

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9 Videotaped Deposition of Mary Saunders held at:
10
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Veritext Legal Solutions
12
1250 Eye Street, N.W.
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Washington, D.C.
14
15 Pursuant to Notice, when were present on behalf
16 of the respective parties:
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[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

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APPEARANCES:
On behalf of American Society for Testing and
Materials d/b/a ASTM International:
J. KEVIN FEE, ESQ.
JANE W. WISE, ESQ.
MORGAN, LEWIS & BOCKIUS, LLP
1111 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20004
202-739-5596
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
On behalf of National Fire Protection
Association, Inc.:
RACHEL G. MILLER-ZIEGLER, ESQ.
MUNGER, TOLLES & OLSON, LLP
1155 F Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20004
202-220-1115
[e-mail]

Page 4

1 APPEARANCES (CONTINUED):
2 On behalf of Public.Resource.Org, Inc.:
3 MATTHEW B. BECKER, ESQ.
4 ANDREW P. BRIDGES, ESQ.
5 FENWICK & WEST, LLP
555 California Street, 12th Floor
6 San Francisco, California 94104
7 415-875-2300
8 [e-mail]
9 [e-mail]
10
11 On behalf of the Witness:
12 GERALD W. GRIFFIN, ESQ.
13 CARTER, LEDYARD & MILBURN, LLP
14 2 Wall Street
15 New York, New York 10005
16 212-238-8672
17 [e-mail]
18
19 Also Present:
20 Sally P. Everett, Vice President and General
21 Counsel, National Fire Protection Association
22 Daniel Russo, Videographer
Pages 1 - 4

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1
CONTENTS
2 EXAMINATION OF MARY SAUNDERS
3 BY MR. BECKER
12, 323
4
BY MR. FEE
311, 331
5
6
7
EXHIBITS
Exhibit 1 Subpoena to Testify
15
8
at a Deposition in
a Civil Trial
9 Exhibit 2 Letter dated 7-29-19
16
10 Exhibit 3 ANSI Organization Chart
117
11
ANSI 1536
Exhibit 4 E-Mail Chain dated 8-28-15 118
12
PRO_00264718-723
13 Exhibit 5 Draft Report
150
14
4-21-11
15
ANSI 2690-2692
16 Exhibit 6 Draft Agenda
156
17
4-21-11
18
ANSI 2296
19 Exhibit 7 Agenda
157
20
4-21-11
ANSI 2538
21 Exhibit 8 Agreement on Technical
160
22
Barriers to Trade

PAGE

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1 EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
2 Exhibit 18 E-Mail Chain dated 3-18-12
237
ANSI 3121-3122
3 Exhibit 19 ANSI Response to Request
237
for Comments on
4
Incorporation by Reference
5
ANSI 3123-3128
6 Exhibit 20 E-Mail Chain dated 4-10-12
240
7
ANSI 3602-3604
8 Exhibit 21 E-Mail Chain dated 6-27-12
245
9
ANSI 3792-793
10 Exhibit 22 E-Mail Chain dated 7-16-12
247
11
ANSI 3844
12 Exhibit 23 E-Mail Chain dated 7-16-12
250
13
ANSI 4530-531
14 Exhibit 24 House Outreach Matrix
250
15
ANSI 4472-4481
Exhibit 25 E-Mail Chain dated 1-8-14
256
16
ANSI 8056
17 Exhibit 26 E-Mail Chain dated 2-27-13
259
18
ANSI 8802-805
19 Exhibit 27 E-Mail Chain dated 2-27-12
268
20
ANSI 9053-056
21 Exhibit 28 E-Mail Chain dated 5-29-12
271
22
ANSI 9121-124

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1 EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
2 Exhibit 9 IBR Handbook
164
July 2018
3 Exhibit 10 Draft Minutes
179
4
3-22-12
5
ANSI 0638-0644
6 Exhibit 11 E-Mail dated 4-27-12
190
7
PRO_00167221-7222
8 Exhibit 12 Draft Proposed Agenda
204
9
ANSI 0303-307
10 Exhibit 13 Copyright Infringement and
205
11
Incorporation by Reference
12
Recent Developments
ANSI 0308-0327
13 Exhibit 14 Draft Minutes
229
14
5-16-13
15
ANSI 0328-0336
Exhibit 15 E-Mail dated 3-1-12
230
16
ANSI 2860
17 Exhibit 16 E-Mail dated 3-15-12
232
18
ANSI 3083
19 Exhibit 17 ANSI Response to Request for 235
20
Comments on Incorporation
21
by Reference
22
ANSI 3084-3089
[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

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EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
Exhibit 29 LinkedIn Profile
278
of Mary Saunders
Exhibit 31 Draft Meeting Report
288
10-27-11
ASTMO16254-265
Exhibit 32 Draft Meeting Report
289
5-21-12
ANSI 1179-187
Exhibit 33 Draft Proposed Agenda
289
ANSI 0263-267
Exhibit 34 Standards Incorporated
290
by Reference into Law
ANSI 0268-0276
Exhibit 35 Draft Minutes
291
5-24-12
ANSI 0277-284
Exhibit 36 Draft Proposed Agenda
292
ANSI 0680-684
Exhibit 37 Draft Minutes
293
3-21-13
ANSI 0685-691
Exhibit 38 Draft Meeting Report
294
ANSI 1527-535
Pages 5 - 8

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1 EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
2 Exhibit 39 Draft Agenda
295
ANSI 0715-719
3 Exhibit 40 Draft Minutes
296
4
11-6-13
5
ANSI 0729-736
6 Exhibit 41 Discussion on Changes
296
7
to the Office of Management
8
and Budget Circular A-119
ANSI 0033-51
9 Exhibit 42 Draft Agenda
297
10
7-24-14
11
ANSI 0771-775
12 Exhibit 43 Federal Engagement in
298
13
Standards Activities
14
ANSI 0776-782
15 Exhibit 44 Draft Minutes
299
7-24-14
16
ANSI 0783-790
17 Exhibit 45 Draft Minutes
300
18
11-19-14
19
ANSI 0791-797
20 Exhibit 46 Letter dated 6-28-19
301
21
Attachment
22
SAU 001-162

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PROCEEDINGS

1
2
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We 3
are going on the record at 10:16 a.m. on August
4
15, 2019.
5
Please note that the microphones are
6
sensitive and may pick up whispering, private
7
conversations and cellular interference.
8
Please turn off all cell phones or place them
9
away from the microphones as they can interfere 10
with the deposition audio. Audio and video
11
recording will continue to take place unless
12
all parties agree to go off the record.
13
This is Media Unit 1 of the
14
video-recorded deposition of Mary Saunders
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taken by counsel for defendant in the matter of
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American Society for Testing and Materials
17
d/b/a ASTM International, National Fire
18
Protection Association, Incorporated, and
19
American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and
20
Air Conditioning Engineers,
21
plaintiffs-counterdefendants, versus
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Public.Resource.Org, Incorporated,
defendant-counterclaimant, filed in the United
States District Court for the District of
Columbia, Case No. 1:13-cv-01215-TSC-DAR.
This deposition is being held at
Veritext Legal Solutions located at 1250 Eye
Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
My name is Daniel Russo from the
firm Veritext Legal Solutions and I am your
videographer today. The court reporter is
Bonnie Russo from the firm Veritext Legal
Solutions.
Counsel and all present in the room
and everyone attending remotely will now state
their appearances and affiliations for the
record, please.
MR. BECKER: Good morning. My name
is Matthew Becker of the law firm Fenwick &
West representing Public.Resource.Org and with
me is my colleague Andrew Bridges.
MR. GRIFFIN: Gerald Griffin,
Carter, Ledyard & Milburn, representing the
Page 12

witness.
MR. FEE: Kevin Fee from Morgan
Lewis on behalf of ASTM.
MS. WISE: Jane Wise from Morgan
Lewis on behalf of ASTM.
MS. MILLER-ZIEGLER: Rachel
Miller-Ziegler, Munger, Tolles & Olsen on
behalf of NFPA.
MS. EVERETT: Sally Everett, NFPA.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
reporter please swear in the witness.
MARY H. SAUNDERS,
being first duly sworn, to tell the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth,
testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL DEFENDANT
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Good morning, Ms. Saunders. Have
you ever had your deposition taken before?
A. I have not.
Q. Have you ever been involved in any
lawsuits before?
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A. I have not.
Q. Let's see. So in that case, we will
set out some preliminaries. In a deposition,
I'm going to be asking you questions and you
will provide answers.
Do you understand that you are
giving testimony under oath today?
A. I do.
Q. Just as you would in a court of law?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You understand that the court
reporter is taking down everything that you
say.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. In that case, we need only audible
responses and not just gestures or sort of
something of the like.
A. I understand.
Q. Thank you. If at any point you
don't understand a question, will you please
let me know and I will try to rephrase?
A. I will.

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Q. And in that case, I'm going to try
to give you the clearest questions I can so
long as you promise to let me know if you don't
understand the question. All right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. If you ever need a break
for any reason, please let me know and as long
as a question isn't pending, I'll provide one.
A. Yes, thank you, I understand.
Q. If you come to realize that any of
your answers that you previously provided is
not completely correct, just let me know and we
will address it. Okay?
A. Yes.
Q. After the transcript and deposition
is prepared, you will have a chance to review
it and make changes to it. However, I can
comment on any changes that you make. Do you
understand?
A. Understood.
Q. Is there any reason preventing you
from giving your best testimony today?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A.

No.
MR. BECKER: Please mark this
Exhibit 1.
(Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, I am handing you what
has been marked as Exhibit 1.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's a subpoena to testify at a
deposition in a civil action.
Q. Is this a subpoena that you
received?
A. I did receive it.
Q. And are you familiar with this
lawsuit, ASTM, et al., versus
Public.Resource.Org?
A. Yes. I'm generally aware of the
lawsuit, yes.
MR. BECKER: Can you please mark
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this as Exhibit 2.
(Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, I am handing you what
has been marked as Exhibit No. 2.
Have you seen this document before?
A. I have seen this document.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's a letter from Russell Craig,
who's the associate chief of the general
litigation division at the U.S. Department of
Commerce, RE: Subpoenas to Mary H. Saunders
for a deposition and document production.
Q. When you say it's a letter to -A. I'm sorry.
Q. You mean it's a letter to -A. It's a letter to Russell Craig from
you as I remember.
Q. Do you understand what the purpose
of this letter is?
A. I do.
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Q. What is the purpose of this letter?
A. My understanding is that you had a
conversation with Mr. Craig and Henry Wixon who
is the general counsel for the National
Institute of Standards and Technology regarding
topics that were not open for discussion with
me since I'm testifying in my personal capacity
from the time when I was a government official.
These are internal -- any internal government
deliberations are protected under process
privilege.
Q. Did you have any conversation with
Mr. Craig about this matter?
A. About the letter?
Q. About this litigation.
A. I'm not following. About the letter
or about the -Q. Have you had any conversation with
Mr. Craig about the Public Resource litigation?
A. I had a conversation with Mr. Craig
and Henry Wixon about my deposition, not about
the litigation per se.

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Q. When did that conversation take
place?
A. That was yesterday. That was
yesterday at 2:00.
Q. And what did you talk about?
A. We talked about the contents of this
letter that you sent to Mr. Craig. We just
wanted to make sure that I had the same
understanding that he and Henry, Mr. Wixon with
regarding -- with respect to what is not open
for discussion.
I also asked if they were planning
to be available and I understand Mr. Craig and
Mr. Wixon will be available by phone if needed.
Q. Did you talk about anything else?
A. No.
Q. Is there any other time, other than
yesterday at 2:00, that you talked to Mr. Craig
about this litigation?
A. No, there is no other time.
Q. And is there any other time that you
talked with Mr. Wixon about this litigation?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. No. I did not talk -- I spoke with
both Henry and Russell Craig yesterday at 2:00.
Q. Do you have any written
communications with Mr. Craig or Mr. Wixon
about this litigation?
A. Not about the litigation. I sent an
e-mail to Russell Craig, I believe a couple of
weeks ago asking if he had actually engaged
with you regarding what would be permissible
and not permissible. That's all that I have.
Q. Did you receive a response?
A. Yes. He said that he had, and
that's -- the result is this letter as I
understand it.
MR. BECKER: Would it be possible to
see a copy of that e-mail?
MR. GRIFFIN: If you are requesting
it, we will go back and look for it.
MR. BECKER: Sure, on a break, that
would be great. Thank you.
MR. GRIFFIN: I'm not sure I'll be
able to get it to you today, but after the
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deposition, yes.
Can we agree that this is the letter
that memorializes your agreement with Russell
Craig with respect to the questions that you
can and cannot ask Ms. Saunders today?
MR. BECKER: Yes.
MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. Thank you.
MR. BRIDGES: By this, Counsel,
you're referring to -MR. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 2, correct.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, are there any other
names other than Mary Saunders that you have
gone by?
A. My maiden name is Mary Catherine
Howard.
Q. Ms. Saunders, where do you work
today?
A. I'm currently the vice president for
government relations and public policy at the
American National Standards Institute.
Q. And that's -- the American National
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Standards Institute is more commonly referred
to as ANSI?
A. That's correct.
Q. How long have you held that position
for?
A. I have held that position since the
1st of March, 2017.
Q. What was your employment immediately
before being VP of government relations and
public policy at ANSI?
A. I was the associate director for
management resources at the National Institute
of Standards and Technology also known as NIST.
I retired from federal service on the 3rd of
February, 2017.
Q. What is NIST?
A. NIST is the National Measurement
Institute for the United States. It is a
bureau of the U.S. Department of Commerce and
it has additional response -- mission related
responsibilities I can go into if you would
like me to, which were delegated under the --

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in 1988, under a revision to NIST
responsibilities. So NIST has broader
technology and standards-related
responsibilities as well as being the National
Measurement Institute for the United States.
Q. How long did you hold the role of
associate director for management resources for
NIST?
A. From the end of November 2012 until
the time that I retired, which as I mentioned,
was the 3rd of February, 2017.
Q. Did you hold any other employment
positions between -- sorry, let me rephrase
this.
Were you employed in any other
positions at any organization or entity between
November 2012 and today, other than the two
that you just referred to?
A. The two -- I'm sorry. I'm not
following. I was a federal employee so I was
employed at NIST from -Q. Since November 2012 --

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. Yes.
Q. -- have you held -- have you been
employed in any position other than the VP of
government relations and public policy at ANSI
and the associate director for management
resources at NIST?
A. I understand. No, I have not.
Q. What was your employment immediately
before being associate director at NIST?
A. You want me to go backwards. Okay.
So from March, the end of March 2011
through November 2012, I was the director of
the standards coordination office at NIST.
Q. Prior to that position, what was
your employment?
A. No, it's easier for me to do it
doing forward.
So going backwards, I was -- prior
to that, I was the deputy assistant secretary
for manufacturing and services at the
International Trade Administration which is
also a bureau of the Department of Commerce. I
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occupied that position from the 18th of
December, 2008, through the end of March 2011.
Q. What position did you hold before
that?
A. From October 2001 through the 18th
of -- well, 17th of December, 2008, I was the
chief of the standards services division at -which is a component of technology services at
the National Institute of Standards and
Technology.
Q. And what was your employment
immediately prior to that?
A. So I transferred from the
international trade administration to NIST in
July of 1993 and I was an international
economist in -- what was called in 1993, the
office of standards services.
The office of standards services was
renamed the standards services division as part
of a realignment within NIST, so '93 to 2001, I
was in the -- what became the standards
services division but I was -- became the chief
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in October of 2001.
Q. Prior to July of 1993, what was your
employment immediately prior to that?
A. So I began my commerce department
career in January of 1996 at the International
Trade Administration. I held positions as an
international trade specialist in two offices
of the International Trade Administration, the
office of capital goods and the second position
was in the office of European community
affairs.
Q. When I refer to "standards," do you
know what I'm referring to?
A. Yes.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How would you define a standard?
A. So depending on context, there may
be a variety of definitions but the -- there
are standards of conduct, there are a variety
of standards, but if you are asking me about
technical standards, those are standards for

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products, processes or services. There is a
definition. The International Organization for
Standardization has a definition, the World
Trade Organization's technical barriers to
trade agreement has a definition. Those are
the definitions I believe you are referring to.
Q. Between those two definitions, is
there any difference?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't
believe there is, but I haven't looked in
detail at those documents recently. I believe
the WTO TBT agreement takes its definition from
ISO.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does standards coordination
mean?
A. In the context of the standards
coordination office?
Q. Yes.
A. So in the context of the standards
coordination office, it means coordinating

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

internally within NIST with respect to
standards-related activities, documentary
standards-related activities and it means
working externally within -- with other federal
agencies and with White House offices and the
private sector in the context of the NIST
activities related to documentary standards,
particularly policy activities related to
documentary standards.
Q. When you refer to policy activities
related to document -- related to standards,
what is it that you are referring to?
A. I am referring to responsibilities
that NIST has under the National Technology
Transfer and Advancement Act of 1995,
specifically as expressed in NIST's mission as
it's described by Congress.
Q. What is the National Technology
Transfer and Advancement Act of 1995?
A. So I can't speak to the entire
National Technology Transfer Act of 1995, it
was a -- it's a revision. I can speak
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specifically to Section 12 of the National
Technology Transfer -- NTTAA of 1995 which
specifically directs federal agencies to use
technical standards developed by voluntary
consensus bodies in support of mission
activities where relevant and appropriate in
lieu of developing government-unique standards.
Q. Do you understand that today when I
use the word "standards," I will be referring
to technical standards unless I say otherwise?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I will pause.
MR. GRIFFIN: That's okay.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When did you first begin working in
a position that required you to be familiar
with standards?
A. In my first position at the
International Trade Administration around the
time period 1989, I was in the office of
capital goods at the time, a component of the
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International Trade Administration and the
European community at that time led by the
European commission was embarking upon its
internal market program, which involved the
passage of a large amount of European
legislation related to product -- related to
how the European community would deal with
product safety and health requirements,
otherwise supported by standards.
These are technical regulations, but
in the European community at the time, now the
European Union, there are technical standards
that support legislation and that's how I first
became involved in standards in the trade
context.
Q. Had you been involved in standards
in any other context prior to that?
A. No.
Q. Does the United States develop its
own standards?
A. It's a little bit difficult to
answer that question. So standards are -- by

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the United States, do you mean the United
States Government or the United States -- I'm
not quite following.
Q. The United States Government. Does
the United States Government develop standards?
A. The United States Government at
large does not develop its own standards.
Individual federal agencies may develop
government-unique standards in support of
mission activities. I mentioned the National
Technology Transfer and Advancement Act, so
individual agencies may engage in standards
activities.
Q. In what situations do individual
U.S. Government agencies develop their own
standards?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So let me give you a
little bit more background. The
standardization system in the United States is
private sector led with government agency's
participation. In areas where government, a

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

specific government agency or a part of an
agency has a need to support a regulation or -a regulation or an other mission-related
activity and there is no technical standard
available in the private sector, the agency may
write its own documents. They are called
government-unique standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Typically, why is it that there
wouldn't be a standard available in the private
sector as required by the agency?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the
answer to that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you offhand know of any standards
that a U.S. Government agency has developed?
A. I am aware generally of EPA test
methods which in some cases are -- have been
developed by the Environmental Protection
Agency.
Q. Do you know the names of any of
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those?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know why the EPA would have
developed those standards rather than using a
standard that was privately developed?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection to form.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that
question. You would have to ask someone at the
EPA about that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever had affiliations with
standard development organizations?
A. If by "affiliations," you mean have
I served on the boards of standards -- specific
standards development organizations, yes.
Q. Have you been a member of standards
development organizations?
A. I have, yes. During my federal
career, I was a member of ASTM International.
For a period of time, I was also a member of
the Institute for Electrical and Electronics
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Engineers.
Q. And that last organization is often
referred to as the IEEE, correct?
A. It is, correct.
Q. Any other standards development
organizations?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Can you clarify, have
I been a member -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. A member of -A. -- of any other standards
development organizations?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I have not.
Q. Do you understand what I am
referring to when I use the term "standards
development organization?"
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is a standards development

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organization?
A. A standards development organization
is an organization that engages in the
administration of process that leads to the
development of standards. We typically focus
on voluntary consensus standards.
Q. What is a voluntary consensus
standard?
A. A voluntary consensus standard is
defined in OMB Circular A-119, and I will be
paraphrasing, a voluntary consensus standard is
produced through a process that includes
characteristics of openness, transparency,
balance and consensus, due process as well.
Q. Is there an alternative to a
voluntary consensus standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: There are many
different types of standards. There are
standards developed by treaty organizations
such as the International Telecommunications
Union. There are, as I mentioned, voluntary

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

consensus standards developed under a process
including the characteristics that I
highlighted.
There are consortia standards.
There are open standards. There are many
different types of standards that are used
widely globally and in the United States.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is an open standard?
A. And so my understanding here is
limited, but an open standard might -- as I
have heard it described, it's very common in
the IT sector. It's a standard where
individual technical experts come together and
discuss a particular technical area and may -the document is open to input manipulation -manipulation is a bad word, but open to input
and change from a variety of different sources.
It's, as I said, common in the IT sector.
Q. When you referred to a voluntary
consensus standard, you said that it's a
standard produced by a process that includes
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characteristics of openness, transparency,
balance and consensus and due process; is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What do you mean by "balance?"
A. A balance of interest across
materially interested in affected parties, so
there are interest categories which may vary
depending on what type of standard is under
consideration, but generally speaking, interest
categories might include producer, user,
general interest, might include consumer, might
include labor interest. It's an intent to
achieve balance or a representation amongst -across a range of interests in a particular
topic.
Q. What stakeholders participate in the
development of voluntary consensus standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It's -- I can't
speak -- that's a very general question. I
can't speak to that. I said materially
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interested in affected parties which may differ
depending on the technical topic.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do members of government participate
in the development of voluntary consensus
standards in the United States?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: They -- technical
staff and individual federal agencies may
participate in the development of standards.
They would be classified in the general
interest category.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Who else would be in the general
interest category?
A. I can't speak to that. It's not
solely government, but again, it depends on the
standard at -- under development as to who
would have a general interest. It would be any
individual organization that is not either a
producer, a user or in another category, but I
can't speak specifically to your -- in answer

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to your question.
1
Q. What are the -- other than the
2
general interest category, what are the other
3
categories of participants?
4
A. Again, that depends on the balance
5
and how that is achieved depends on the
6
individual standard at -- at issue. I am
7
speaking to high level categories as laid out
8
in the ANSI essential requirements for the
9
development of American national standards, 10
producer, user, general interests. Other
11
possible categories depending on the standard 12
include consumer interest, labor interests. It 13
depends.
14
Q. Is there industry interests?
15
A. Of course, producer, user, those can
16
both -- those categories can include industry 17
representatives.
18
Q. Any other interests?
19
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
20
THE WITNESS: It depends on the
21
standard under -- under development.
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do government and representatives
participate in standard development?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So the National
Technology Transfer and Advancement Act, as I
mentioned, Section 12, specifically directs
federal agencies to use technical standards
developed by voluntary consensus standards
bodies. The law also directs the agencies to
participate in standards development activities
when those activities are relevant to their
mission interests.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And how -- how do members of
government participate in standards development
activities when those activities are relevant
to their mission interests?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The type of
participation, as I understand, will vary from
Page 40

agency to agency. Individual agencies have
particular guidelines for how their technical
staff participate in standards development
activities, so I -- I can't speak to the
general question. It varies from agency to
agency.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you refer to "technical staff,"
are you referring to government employees?
A. Yes, I am referring to government
employees.
Q. Is ANSI an SDO?
A. No. ANSI is not a standards
development organization.
Q. What is ANSI?
A. ANSI is the -- ANSI's mission is to
represent the private sector-led
standardization system in the United States and
represent its interests.
ANSI is also -- as part of that
mission, ANSI is the national standards body
representing -- national standards body to the
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International Organization for Standardization
and through the U.S. national committee to the
International Electrotechnical Commission which
are two international -- two organizations that
develop international standards.
Q. So by that, do you mean ANSI
represents standards development organizations?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I do not mean that
ANSI represents -- you mean generally speaking?
Standards -- ANSI has several member
categories where ANSI is a federation, there is
a government member category, so government
agencies are members of ANSI. Organizational
membership category which includes standards
development organizations and other
organizations. There is a company member
category, there is a consumer category.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Any other categories?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Those are all the ones

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I remember.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You said that organizational
category includes standards development
organizations and other organizations.
What other organizations?
A. Trade associations that may not
develop standards.
Q. Any other organizations?
A. Not that I can enumerate currently.
Q. Are you a member of ANSI?
A. I'm on the staff of ANSI. I'm not a
member of ANSI.
Q. Were you previously a member of
ANSI?
A. Personally, no. The National
Institute of Standards and Technology was -- is
a government member of ANSI and I was a staff
member of the National Institute of Standards
and Technology.
Q. So you were never personally a
member of ANSI but you were -- you participated

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

in ANSI through NIST?
A. That's correct.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection. Wait one
second.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How did you participate in ANSI
through NIST?
A. In a variety of ways. I was a
member of the ANSI national policy committee.
I served as chair of the national policy
committee for a term. I participated in
international policy committee, I participated
in representing NIST in ANSI activities that
are relevant to the NIST mission.
Q. Did NIST pay any membership or
participation fee for you when you were
participating in ANSI?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not for me personally.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did NIST pay any membership or
participation fee so that you were able to
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participate in ANSI as a member -- as a person
employed by NIST?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what fees those were?
A. I mentioned that ANSI has different
membership categories. NIST paid the fees
relevant to the government membership category.
I don't have the details of those dues.
Q. Did you participate in any standards
development organizations in your capacity at
NIST?
A. I participated as a member of an
ASTM committee from 1993 probably for a couple
of years specifically. I believe the number is
E50. It's the ASTM committee that served as
the -- that administered the technical advisory
group to ISO, Technical 207 which is
environmental management systems, so I was a
member of that committee for a period of time.
Q. Do you know approximately how long
you were a member of that committee for?
A. Approximately two years would be my
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Page 47

guess. It's been -- '93, 2003, it's been more
1
than 25 years.
2
Q. Did NIST pay your membership dues
3
when you were participating in that committee? 4
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
5
THE WITNESS: I paid my $75
6
membership dues to ASTM when I was
7
participating in that committee personally.
8
BY MR. BECKER:
9
Q. Did you get those dues reimbursed?
10
A. No, I did not.
11
Q. Were you participating in that ASTM
12
committee in your personal capacity or in -- or 13
in a government employee capacity?
14
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
15
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
16
earlier, the National Technology Transfer and 17
Advancement Act directs federal agency
18
employees to participate in standards
19
development activities that are relevant to
20
their missions and that direction is also
21
codified in OMB Circular A119, so yes, I was 22
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participating pursuant to law and policy as a
NIST employee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did ASTM have a government
membership category at that time?
A. I'm not following that question.
Q. Was there -- did you pay a different
fee to ASTM as a member of government as
opposed to one you might pay if you were a
member of the private sector at the time?
A. No. My understanding is that the
$75 membership fee applies to anyone who would
like to be a member of ASTM.
Q. Did you participate in the IEEE in
your capacity as a government employee?
A. I was a member of the IEEE standards
association board for one term in my capacity
as a NIST employee.
Q. When was that?
A. I would have to look at my risumi to
remember. I believe it was the early 2007,
2008, but I would have to look at my risumi to

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

remind myself of the actual timing.
Q. Have you participated in any
standards development organizations in your
personal capacity?
A. No, I have not.
Q. When did you first become involved
with ANSI?
A. Again, it's been a long time. Let
me think. I mentioned I moved from the
International Trade Administration to NIST to
July of 1993 to the office of standards
services, it would have been sometime following
July of 1993.
Q. How were you involved with ANSI
initially?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I -- as I mentioned,
in 1993, that's more than 25 years ago. I
would have to go -- I can't give you a specific
answer. It would probably have been -- I can't
give you a specific answer.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. When you said that you were -- first
became involved with ANSI in July 1993, are you
referring to work that involved ANSI or in your
government capacity?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
earlier, I moved to NIST to the office of
standard services in July of 1993. NIST, at
that time and still, is a member on behalf of
the Department of Commerce in ANSI.
So I would have been aware as a
staff person in the office of standards
services about NIST's participation in ANSI. I
believe at that time, participation in policy
committees was limited to board members so I
would not, at that time, have been directly
engaged in policy activities.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When did you first become directly
engaged in activities at ANSI?
A. Again, I would have to go look at my
risumi to remind myself of the particular
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Page 51

dates, but as I mentioned, it's likely -- let's
1
see. Chief of global standards program -2
2001, which is when I became chief of the
3
standards services division would be a
4
reasonable time frame to begin engagement in 5
policy activities at ANSI.
6
Q. What kind of policy activities were
7
you involved in with ANSI in -- when you were 8
chief of standards services division?
9
A. So I -- as I mentioned, I had a term
10
as the chair of the international policy
11
committee of ANSI. I also served as the chair 12
of the national -- not at the same time,
13
consecutively, as the chair of the national
14
policy committee of ANSI. I was on an
15
accreditation board dealing with environmental 16
management systems for a period of time.
17
Q. Subsequent to that, what other -18
can you tell me the -- the positions that you
19
have held in ANSI in chronological order?
20
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
21
THE WITNESS: I would be happy to
22
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provide you with a copy of my risumi. I don't
have that data in my head that I could tell
you.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you recall some of the other
positions that you've held at ANSI?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not off the top of my
head, no.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. No other positions than those?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I would be happy to
provide you with my risumi which lists all the
positions.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have a copy of your risumi
available today?
A. No, but I can send you one.
Q. What work did you do as chair of
international -- of the international policy
committee at ANSI?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. So the international policy
committee of ANSI is a committee which provides
information to ANSI members or members of the
community on international activities ranging
from the activities in the International
Organization for Standardization and the
International Electrotechnical Commission to -reports on standards developments in other
parts of the world, such as the European Union,
China and so forth, its international policy.
Q. What work did you do as a member of
the national policy committee at ANSI?
A. So the responsibilities of the
national policy committee are to look at
national issues related to standardization.
The national policy committee has a committee
on education which focuses on education related
to standards activities, so that was a topic of
discussion and the national policy committee
also was the policy committee to which the ANSI
executive standards council and the board of
standards review reported.
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Those two committees are responsible
for overseeing the ANSI essential -- the
implementation of the ANSI essential
requirement and the development of American
national standards.
Q. What do you mean by "education
related to standards activities?"
A. So, there is a great interest in the
community at large, the private sector and the
government community in ensuring future
availability of standards professionals and
there are -- there are a growing number of
universities that include standards -- a
component in their education, engineering,
legal education, other education programs,
education programs focused on those types of
activities.
Q. So the committee on -- correct me if
I am mistaken, the committee on education
assisted in the education of future standards
professionals?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: You can look at the
information on the committee on education, I
believe it's available on the ANSI website but
the committee on education was a committee of
interested ANSI members who would either
provide materials that might be used in
universities or -- or discuss the value of
including knowledge about standards in various
university -- relevant university programs.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Other than as a member of the ASTM
Committee E50, have you had any other roles at
ASTM?
A. As I mentioned earlier, I was on the
board of ASTM for one term from 2010 to 2012.
Q. What did you do as a member of the
board of ASTM?
A. So I -- as a member of the board, I
heard reports from the president of ASTM and
from -- reports from the head of technical
operations at ASTM. We received reports and
had discussions.

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Q. Did you participate in
decisionmaking activities for ASTM when you
were a member of the board?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: From my experience in
one term on the ASTM board, I don't remember
taking any specific decisions. As a government
employee, I recused -- would recuse myself from
any budgetary issues, items, fiduciary items.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you recuse yourself from any
other items other than budgetary and fiduciary
at ASTM?
A. No. As I -- no.
Q. How did you become a member of the
board at ASTM?
A. So NIST, as I have experienced, I
can only speak to NIST, NIST has had a -- had,
previously had a member of the ASTM board for
many -- for several terms. I was actually
asked to stand for a member election as a
potential member of the ASTM board when I was

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

in the International Trade Administration
because of my trade expertise, and I agreed to
be a candidate for the board and I was elected
by the membership of the board.
Q. Who asked -A. By the membership of ASTM.
Q. Who asked you to stand?
A. I -- it's -- I believe Jim Thomas
who was then the president of ASTM asked me if
I was willing to be a candidate.
Q. Were there other government
employees who were a member of the board of
ASTM at the time that you served as a member of
the board?
A. I would have to go back and look at
the membership at the time. That's almost ten
years ago. It's possible. I just can't
remember off the top of my head.
Q. Do you recall approximately how many
people comprised the board of ASTM at the time
that you served?
A. I believe it was 12 or 15. Again,
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from memory.
Q. Have you served in -- have you
participated as a member at ASTM in any other
capacity other than with E50 and as a member of
the board in 2010 to 2012?
A. So for a couple of years toward the
end of my tenure at NIST, I was a member of E60
which is the sustainability committee.
Q. What did you do as a member of E60?
A. I commented on draft -- I voted on
draft documents.
Q. When you say, "draft documents,"
what kind of documents?
A. Standards.
Q. Was that voting on the revision of
draft standards?
A. So the sustainability committee was
created at the time that I became a member so
the initial effort was to develop new
standards.
Q. Okay. So you voted on drafts of new
standards -Pages 53 - 56

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A. That's correct.
Q. -- as a member of E60?
A. I did.
Q. And at approximately what time was
that?
A. Probably 2015 to -- or 2014 to 2017
when I retired. Again, the time frame is
coming from memory.
Q. When you were a member of the E60,
did E60 end up developing any standards that
were finalized and released to the public?
A. I don't remember specifically.
Q. What considerations went into your
decisions when you were voting on draft
standards?
A. So sustainability is an area that
was of -- is of interest to the national -- to
NIST, and I looked at the draft documents to -with a view to whether they were -- how they
were written and whether they were easy to
understand.
Q. What is the purpose of voting on

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draft standards as a member of E60?
1
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
2
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
3
THE WITNESS: The purpose of voting? 4
As I mentioned earlier, committees looked to
5
achieve a balance of interests and those
6
interests are -- it is the expectation that
7
those interests will vote on standards.
8
BY MR. BECKER:
9
Q. Do the members of E60 have to
10
approve a standard by majority vote in order 11
for the draft to be published -12
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
13
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
14
BY MR. BECKER:
15
Q. -- as final?
16
A. You would have to check with ASTM 17
about that, what their requirements are for
18
moving a draft through the various stages of 19
the process.
20
Q. How were drafts of standards
21
developed when you were a member of E60? 22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I was essentially a
corresponding member of E60. I did not attend
a committee meeting so I can't speak to how
those drafts were developed.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does "corresponding member"
mean?
A. It means I did not attend a meeting.
I received electronic versions of documents and
I voted on them.
Q. Did you ever contribute any text to
a standard when you were participating with
ASTM?
A. No, I did not.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What aspects of the draft standards
did you evaluate?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As I -- I'm not -- the
question is not clear. Can you rephrase that.
Page 60

BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Sure. Were there certain criteria
you used when reviewing draft standards, draft
ASTM standards?
A. My background is heavily in
trade-related issues, also I have a background
in political science and economics, so I looked
at the text of the draft standards, as I
mentioned earlier, for readability,
understandability, those types of issues, those
types of aspects.
Q. Did you ever submit any comments
referring to -- did you ever submit any
comments when you were a member of E60
suggesting changes in any of the drafts that
you reviewed?
A. I did not.
Q. Was your participation as a member
of E60 limited to just voting?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever vote against a draft as
a member of E60?
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A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you ever vote for a draft as a
member of E60?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Other than as a member of E60 and a
member of E50 and a board member in 2010 to
2012, have you participated in ASTM in any
other capacity?
A. I was an invited speaker at an ASTM
event hosting standards -- national standards
bodies from I believe Latin America, so I was
an invited speaker on behalf of NIST at that
ASTM event.
Q. Other than that and the involvement
we just previously discussed, is there any
other way in which you participated in ASTM?
A. No.
Q. How have you participated in IEEE?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As I mentioned, I was
on the IEEE Standards Association board of
governors for one term, I believe it was 2007,

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2008. That is the extent of my engagement with
IEEE.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What do you do in that position at
the IEEE?
A. So the board of governors of the
standards association oversees
standards-related activities of the IEEE, so we
received reports from the patent committee, we
received reports from the various committees
that are available at IEEE to advise on
standards activities.
Q. When you say, "you oversee
standards-related activities," what does that
involve?
A. I should have said -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: A better way to
support standards-related activities at the
IEEE. I mentioned the patent committee. At
the time that I was on the board of governors,
there was quite a bit of interest within the

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

standards association at -- in expanding the
international visibility of IEEE, so I engaged
with other members of the board in activities
related to international engagement and
visibility.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any other way that you
participated as a member of the board of
governors at IEEE?
A. Not that I remember, no. I think
that characterizes my engagement. Again, I was
-- understand primarily on the board of
governors because of my trade expertise.
Q. How do you become a member of the
board of governors at IEEE?
A. Again, there is an election of the
members. The slate of proposed board of
governors, new board of governors members is
sent out to the membership for a vote. A staff
person at the IEEE Standards Association asked
me if I would stand for election to the board
of governors.
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Q. Do you know who that staff person
was?
A. Judy Gorman who was at that time the
executive director of the standards
association.
Q. When you refer to "the standards
association," what are you referring to?
A. It's a subcomponent of IEEE.
Q. Do you know why Judy Gorman asked
you to serve as a member of the board of
governors of IEEE?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I didn't ask her why
she asked me. I assumed it's because of my
trade expertise.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What board positions have you held
at ANSI?
A. Board positions?
Q. Yeah.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I was a director at
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large on the board of ANSI. As I mentioned
earlier, as chair of the international policy
committee and also later as chair of the
national policy committee, those chairs are -ex-officio are members of the board, so I was
both a director at large and I have also been
on the board as the IPC and the NPC chairs.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you had any other involvement
with -- as a member of the board of ANSI?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Have I had any other
positions? Is that your question?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. So I neglected to mention earlier
because I did not remember until now, that I
was -- I served as a vice chair of ANSI as well
and as a vice chair, I was also a member of the
board.
Q. What is the role of a vice chair of
ANSI?

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A. So there are -- there are four vice
chairs at ANSI. And the four vice chairs,
along with the chairman of the board, the past
chair advice the president and CEO of ANSI on
issues that he raises with that small group.
Q. When you refer to "that small
group," what are -A. The four vice chairs, the chairman
of the board and the past chair.
Q. When were you vice chair of ANSI?
A. Let me think. It's in my risumi so
let's see. It would have -- certainly through
2016. So back up.
Probably, I would have to back it up
from there, but certainly through -- through
the end of 2016.
Q. Do you know approximately how many
years you served in that position?
A. I think it's two two-year terms.
Q. Two separate two-year terms?
A. Yes.
Q. Were those consecutive?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. Yes.
Q. How did you become the vice chair of
ANSI?
A. I put my hat in the ring to be
nominated to be a vice chair of ANSI and I was
selected by the nominating committee of ANSI -or recommended by the nominating committee of
ANSI.
Q. Were you already a director at large
at the time that you became vice chair of ANSI?
A. I would have to go back and look if
I was a member of the board as -- on the basis
of chairing a policy committee or if I was a
director at large. I don't have those dates at
my fingertips.
Q. What were your responsibilities as a
director at large of ANSI?
A. So the ANSI board is very large.
There's 53 members of the ANSI board and I was
one of those 53 individuals. The board meets
twice a year and it receives briefings from the
staff of ANSI and the president and CEO on
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ANSI's activities.
Q. Did you attend each of those
meetings?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have any other
responsibilities as director at large of ANSI?
A. I'm not following your -- I was a
member of the board and -Q. Other than attending those meetings?
A. And chairing the policy committees
when I -- at the time I was a chair? No.
Q. Was chairing the policy committees a
required component of being a director of the
board?
A. No. As I mentioned earlier, there
are different types of board members. Chairs
of policy committees are automatically members
of the board ex-officio, and then other members
of the board are directors at large who are
elected based -- directly to the board.
Q. As a member of the ANSI board, did
you vote on policy decisions by ANSI?
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MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned,
members of the board would receive briefings on
ANSI's activities. ANSI's strategic objectives
were presented to the board every year, ANSI's
activities in ISO and ISE were briefed to the
board on a regular basis.
There probably were instances where
the board was asked to vote. I don't remember
the specifics of those votes. I would have
recused myself from any fiduciary votes that
the board -- the board approves the budget
every year. I did not vote on that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you ever participate in any
votes of the board of ANSI?
A. I'm sure I did.
Q. Do you recall any of those votes
that you participated in?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not off the top of my
head.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How did you become the VP of
government relations and public policy at ANSI?
A. I applied for the position and I was
selected.
Q. Were there other candidates for that
position?
A. I don't know.
Q. When did you apply for that
position?
A. In the fall of 2016. I had made my
retirement plans and I was looking at
post-government employment. It was one of
several positions I applied for.
Q. What were the other positions that
you applied for?
A. I applied for positions at other
501(c)(3) organizations, that -- well, I
applied for a position at the Association for
the Advancement of Medical Instrumentation as
well.
Q. Were there any other positions that

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

you applied for at that time?
A. No.
Q. What is the Association for the
Advancement of Medical Instrumentation?
A. It's a nonprofit organization that
engages in activities, including standards
development activities related to the health
technology sector.
Q. When did you learn that you had
gotten the position as VP of government
relations and public policy at ANSI?
A. As I said, I had already made my
retirement plans. This was post-government
employment. I filed all the required
disclosure forms with the Department of
Commerce. I learned in December of 2016 that I
had been -- the job was offered to me in
December of 2016.
Q. Do you know when you accepted the
job?
A. I can't -- presumably about that
time. I can't remember specifically. As I
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said, I filed all the necessary disclosure
forms with the Department of Commerce prior to
engaging in a job search.
Q. What are the -- those disclosure
forms?
A. What organizations I was seeking a
position with and a disclaimer that I would -information that I would recuse myself from any
decisions related to those organizations.
Q. Did you recuse yourself from any
decisions related to ANSI during that time?
A. I was the associate director for
management resources so I had -- at the time at
NIST, so I had no direct responsibilities with
respect to ANSI decisions in standards
activities.
Q. What was your job as associate
director for management resources?
A. So the associate director for
management resources is directly responsible
for all of the operational activities at NIST,
which are facilities and property management,
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acquisitions and grants management, health and
safety, human resources. The chief financial
officer reported to me as did the chief
information officer, so all of the operational
activities at NIST.
Q. So does that mean that you oversaw
the human resources department and other
departments?
A. That's correct. I reported to -the chief officers reported to me.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are your responsibilities as
the VP of government relations and public
policy at ANSI?
A. I'm responsible for ANSI's
relationships with federal -- with government
agencies not just federal agencies. Federal -government agencies as well as keeping track of
any Congressional activities that might be
relevant to standards -- the standardization
community for ANSI.

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Q. When you refer to "the
standardization community," what are you
referring to?
A. I am referring to standards as well
as -- and assessment of conformity to
standards. That's why we use the term
standardization.
Q. When you refer to "assessment of
conformity to standards," what are you
referring to?
A. Testing, product certification,
inspection, verification and validation. Those
are confirming assessment activities.
Q. Does ANSI itself engage in any
assessment of conformity to standards?
A. No. ANSI, through its division, the
American National Accreditation Board accredits
conformity assessment activities. It does not
engage in the activities that I listed.
Q. When you say it "accredits those
activities," what are you referring to?
A. There are a suite of international

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

standards establishing a hierarchy for what we
call conformity assessment activities
accreditation. It is a -- there are standards
at the accreditation level, ISO standards,
which speak to determining the competence of
conformity assessment organizations, so ANSI is
an accreditor.
Q. What is a conformity assessment
organization?
A. It could be a test lab, a product
certifier, an inspection body, a validation and
verification body, personnel certification.
There are a range of types of activities,
conformity assessment activities, all of which
have international standards associated with
them.
Q. Are there any instances you are
aware of in which a conformity assessment
organization requires ANSI accreditation in
order to operate?
A. Are you asking -- can you repeat the
question or clarify the question.
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Q. Are there any instance you are aware
of in which a conformity assessment
organization requires ANSI accreditation in
order to operate?
A. The question is still not clear. So
ANSI accreditation -- you're asking me if ANSI
accreditation is mandatory in specific cases?
Q. Yes.
A. Not specifically ANSI accreditation.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Accreditation -- well, the U.S.
system for conformity assessment, like the U.S.
standards system, has a multiplicity of -there is not a national accreditation body in
the United States. There are multiple
accreditation bodies of which the ANSI national
accreditation board is one.
Accreditation generally may be --as
demonstration of a competence through
accreditation generally may be required by
purchasers, by specifiers, by particular
interests, and ANSI may be one of those
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accreditors. It's not the only one.
Q. Is accreditation ever required by
government law or regulation?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Do you want to
rephrase, please.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yeah. Is accreditation ever
required by government law?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can't -- I don't
know the answer whether any law requires
accreditation. There are regulations where
accreditation is determined to be a means of
demonstrating competence.
I would have to go back and read -the Food Safety Modernization Act might be one
example, but I'm more familiar with the
regulation activities than I am with the laws.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any specific regulations
that you know of, sitting here today, that

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require accreditation in this capacity?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I mentioned the Food
Safety Modernization Act when the FDA
established its program for oversight of food
safety. There is a provision for accreditation
of competent organizations. The FDA
administers that overall program. I mean -- go
ahead.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there any other specific
regulations that you can think of, sitting here
today, that require accreditation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'll speak generally.
A component of the National Technology Transfer
and Advancement Act, we covered the standards
related -- directions under Section 12.
Section 12 also directs federal agencies to
coordinate their conformity assessment

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

activities with those of the private sector.
The most recent revision of OMB
Circular A119 has an extensive section on
conformity assessment activities in it which
reflect both developments in the -- at the
World Trade Organization's technical barriers
to trade agreement as well as other government
policies, and those documents encourage federal
agencies to rely on private sector conformity
assessment activities wherever feasible.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Going back to my question: Are
there specific examples of regulations, other
than the Food Safety Modernization Act, that
you know of that require accreditation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So the Federal
Communications Commission directs accredit -that telecommunication certification bodies be
accredited. FCC's recognition of testing
laboratories that do electromagnetic
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compatibility testing, requires accreditation.
EPA's Energy Star Program, but EPA administers
that program.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ANSI provide the accreditation
in either the FCC examples that you just
provided or the Food Safety Modernization Act?
A. Yes, both. ANSI has been evaluated
and is recognized by both the FCC and EPA as a
qualified accreditation body as are others.
Q. Do you know approximately how many
other qualified accreditation bodies there are?
A. Not off the top of my head.
Q. Do you have an estimate?
A. Let's see. In the Food Safety
Management Act, I believe one other
accreditation body is -- has demonstrated
technically competent, but I -- again, you
would have to look on the -- at the FDA
website.
Q. Do you recall what -- what
accreditation body that is?
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A. I believe it's the American
1
Association for Laboratory Accreditation.
2
Q. Does ANSI charge a fee for providing
3
accreditations?
4
A. All accreditation bodies charge fees
5
for accreditation.
6
Q. Do you know what ANSI's fee is?
7
A. I do not.
8
Q. And can I take that as a yes, that
9
ANSI does charge a fee to provide
10
accreditation?
11
A. Yes, accreditation is a
12
fee-for-service activity.
13
Q. Is ANSI listed in the Food Safety
14
Modernization Act as a body that can provide 15
accreditation?
16
A. Not under the Act, no.
17
Q. Is ANSI listed under a regulation as
18
a body that can provide accreditation under the19
requirements of the Food Safety Modernization20
And?
21
A. As I mentioned, the Food and Drug
22
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Administration has evaluated ANSI with respect
to its competence to provide services related
to the Food Safety Modernization Act and its -ANSI -- the American National Accreditation
Body, ANAB, the division of ANSI is listed I
believe by the FDA.
Q. Listed in a regulation?
A. No, listed on its website.
Q. Okay. Do any standards development
organizations provide conformity assessment -provide accreditation for conformity assessment
organizations?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Are you asking me if
any standards development organizations are
also accreditors?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes.
A. No. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Why is that, do you know?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I -- I don't have an

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

opinion on that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what -- approximately
what portion of ANSI's revenues are derived
from accreditation?
A. I believe that information is
available in the annual report. I don't have
that number at my fingertips.
Q. Do you have an estimate?
A. I would have to go look at the
annual report.
Q. Is that annual report provided to
the public?
A. Yes.
Q. Under the Food Safety Modernization
Act and its related regulations, is there any
other means for a conformity assessment
organization to operate other than by
accreditation by ANSI or the other accreditors
that you had referenced?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
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THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.
You would have to go look at the FDA website.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What's the role of a conformity
assessment organization in the scope of the
Food Safety Modernization Act?
A. I can't answer that.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't have the
details on the Food Safety Modernization Act.
That wasn't within my area of expertise.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what the term
"incorporation by reference" means?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: In what context?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. In the context of law.
MR. FEE: Same objection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I am familiar with the
National Archives and Records Administration
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Incorporation by Reference Handbook for
incorporation into regulations, and I am
familiar with the OMB Circular A119 discussion
of incorporation by reference.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What's the National Archives and
Records Administration's Incorporation by
Reference Handbook?
A. The National Archives and Records
Administration houses the Office of Federal
Register. The Incorporation by Reference
Handbook is NARA's instructions to agencies as
to the appropriate way to incorporate material
by reference into regulations which will become
part of the Code of Federal Regulations.
Q. When you say, "it's NARA's
instructions to agencies," what do you mean by
that?
A. As I mentioned, the National
Archives and Records Administration houses the
Office of Federal Register and in that context,
it provides instructions to regulation writers

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and agencies as to how to prepare materials for
publication in the Office of Federal Register,
and at the end of the rulemaking, in the Code
of Federal Regulations.
Q. When you say, "it provides
instructions," are these instructions that the
regulation writers and agencies are required to
follow or is this just guidance?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: The IBR -- the NARA
IBR handbook is available on the website. You
can review it directly. It is instructions for
how to prepare material to be published in the
Federal Register and in the Code of Federal
Regulations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And my question was: Are those
instructions -- excuse me.
Are the writers of regulations and
agencies required to follow the instructions in
that handbook?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

THE WITNESS: Not having been a
regulation writer, I can't speak directly to
that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is "incorporation by
reference?"
A. Incorporation by reference is
incorporating a document by reference to that
document in a -- in a notice of proposed
rulemaking or a rule itself.
Q. What is the effect of incorporation
by reference?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can only speak to
the effect of incorporation by reference as
defined in the NARA IBR handbook for materials
that are published in the Federal Register and
in the Code of Federal Regulations. It's
incorporated in by reference into the Code of
Federal Regulations. I can't speak beyond
that.
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is incorporation by reference
used?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Again, I refer to the
NARA handbook and the instructions. There are
a variety of reasons and for reasons of
efficiency, for reasons of reducing the volume
of the materials that are actually published,
and very importantly for copyright reasons,
documents that are copyrighted have protection
under the law.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you speak more to that?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What -- I'm not clear
about what additional -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "very importantly for
copyright reasons," what do you mean by that?
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A. So NARA -- the NARA handbook lists
several considerations that agencies should
take under advisement, as does the OMB
circular, with respect to incorporating
materials by reference, and one of those is
copyright obligations, obligations to protect,
to -- obligations to protect copyright.
Q. What do you mean by "obligations to
protect copyright?"
A. Well, copyrighted documents are
protected by the Copyright Act.
Q. So how does incorporation by
reference relate to an obligation to protect
copyright?
A. Incorporation by reference is in
lieu of producing -- reproducing an entire
copyrighted document in a federal document.
mean -Q. And again, how does incorporation by
reference relate to an obligation to protect
copyright?
MR. FEE: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: I just -- I thought I
just answered that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you saying that by not
publishing a document in full in a law or
regulation, the entity that is publishing that
law or regulation thereby avoids copyright
infringement?
MR. FEE: Objection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not a
copyright lawyer so I can't speak to the
details of that. I refer you to the OMB
circular which has a very extensive discussion
of considerations for agencies and
incorporating material by reference as well as
the NARA handbook.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know when the NARA handbook
was first published?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know who drafts the NARA

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

handbook?
A. The staff of the Office of Federal
Register is my understanding.
Q. Do you know how the NARA handbook is
drafted?
A. I do not.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know who has input on the
contents of the NARA handbook?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any estimate as to when
the NARA handbook was first issued?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How long have you been referring to
the NARA handbook?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As a source document?
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The NARA handbook was -- is updated
periodically. The NARA handbook was updated in
-- following the publication -- I think
immediately prior to the publication of the
current version of the OMB circular. OMB
deferred to NARA to update its regulations
prior to completing the update of the OMB
circular and I -- the current version of the
NARA handbook is dated 2018.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you refer to the NARA handbook
as an authoritative source of information when
you were a government employee?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As I said, I never was
in a position to be a regulation writer.
Relevant documents are pointed to on
standards.gov and so it's the National
Technology Transfer and Advancement Act, the
OMB circular and the NARA handbook. There may
be other documents as well, but I have never
been a regulation writer.
Pages 89 - 92

Page 93

1
2

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Did you ever refer to the NARA

3 handbook when you were a government employee?
4

A.

Personally, no, because I never

5 wrote a regulation.
6

Q.

Did you ever read the NARA handbook

7 while you were a government employee?
8

A.

I have read the NARA handbook, yes.

9

Q.

While you were a government

10 employee?
11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Why was it that you read the NARA

13 handbook while a government employee?
14

A.

As I mentioned, there are -- the

15 relevant documents are the National Technology
16 Transfer and Advancement Act, the OMB circular
17 and the NARA handbook. There are related
18 executive orders as well as 1512866 and other
19 memos. I read all those documents. I was
20 familiar with those documents at a high level
21 because NIST is directed by Congress to promote
22 reliance on private voluntary consensus

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standards by federal agencies and those are
1
operative documents.
2
Q. When you say, "operative documents," 3
what do you mean?
4
A. Those are relevant documents.
5
Q. Okay. How is the NARA handbook
6
relevant to the promotion of reliance on
7
private voluntary consensus standards by
8
federal agencies?
9
A. It speaks to good practices in
10
incorporated material by reference in the Code 11
of Federal Regulations and the material may 12
include standards.
13
Q. Is there a more authoritative source
14
of information on the practices for
15
incorporation by reference of material into
16
regulations?
17
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
18
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
19
THE WITNESS: I have listed the
20
documents I am aware of.
21
BY MR. BECKER:
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. But my question was: Is there a
more authoritative document other than that?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you consider the IBR handbook to
be an authoritative document?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I consider the IBR
handbook to be relevant to agencies that are
incorporating material by reference.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What kind of documents are
incorporated by reference into law?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm familiar with
regulations, not the law.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What's the distinction between law
and regulations?
Page 96

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: At the federal -- I am
familiar with the federal level, federal agency
activities only, which typically, agencies
issue regulations pursuant to laws that
Congress has passed.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So by laws, are you referring to
statutes?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm referring to
legislation that passes Congress and is signed
by the President.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Okay. When I - today, when I refer
to "law,"
I will be including regulations in the term
law.
If I want to refer to statutes or
legislations specifically or regulations
specifically, I will use those terms.
Does that make sense to you?
Pages 93 - 96

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A. I understand what you said. I will
1
continue to refer to them as regulations though 2
because I see a difference.
3
Q. What kind of documents are
4
incorporated by reference into regulations?
5
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
6
THE WITNESS: So I can't speak to
7
that general question. I haven't looked at
8
every regulation in terms of what documents
9
might be incorporated.
10
BY MR. BECKER:
11
Q. Can you give me examples of
12
documents that are incorporated by reference 13
into regulation?
14
A. Yes. There are -- some standards
15
are incorporated by reference into regulation. 16
Q. Are you aware of other documents,
17
other than standards, that are incorporated by 18
reference into regulation in the United States? 19
A. Not specifically.
20
Q. Are you aware of specific -- excuse
21
me.
22
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Are you generally aware of other
1
documents that are incorporated by reference 2
into regulation in the United States other than 3
standards?
4
A. I am aware that there is the
5
possibility that other documents may be
6
incorporated by reference. I don't have any
7
direct experience.
8
Q. Do you know what types of other
9
documents might be incorporated by reference 10
into regulation in the United States?
11
A. I do not.
12
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
13
BY MR. BECKER:
14
Q. Who makes the decision to
15
incorporate a document by reference into a
16
regulation in the United States?
17
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
18
MR. FEE: Objection.
19
THE WITNESS: Who makes the
20
decision? So agencies -- regulatory agencies 21
have regulatory staff that write draft
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Page 99

regulations which are subject to the
Administrative Procedures Act, which means that
they go out for public comment. The agency
responds to those comments and then moves
through the process to a final rule. So
agencies are responsible for proposing
regulations and proposing material incorporated
in those regulations. Those actions are
subject to the Administrative Procedures Act.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So when you say that "an agency is
responsible for proposing material incorporated
into regulations," who makes the final decision
as to what material will be incorporated into
those regulations?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can't speak to
internal agency processes as to who the
decisionmakers are. Likely, various from
agency to agency. It will be an internal
review process for a notice of proposed
Page 100

rulemaking, and for certain rules over a
certain economic threshold, the Office of
Management and Budget will also reviews those
proposed rules.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do members of the public have input
as to what documents will be incorporated by
reference into regulations in the United
States?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I mentioned that
regulations are subject to the Administrative
Procedures Act which means they are subject to
notice and comment by the public.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what does notice and comment by
the public involve?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: An agency develops and
publishes in the Office of Federal Register, a
notice of proposed rulemaking, allows a certain
Pages 97 - 100

Page 101

1 period of time for comment on that proposed
2 rule, and then under the Administrative
3 Procedures Act must take the comments into
4 account and respond to those comments and move
5 through the process. That's what I mean.
6
7

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Earlier, you had discussed the

8 reasons for incorporation by reference and -9 as opposed to stating the contents of the
10 document that would be incorporated verbatim
11 into the law or regulation, and you had
12 mentioned that those reasons included
13 efficiency and also copyright concerns; is that
14 correct?
15

A.

Yes.

16

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

17

BY MR. BECKER:

18

Q.

Are there other reasons other than

19 efficiency and copyright concerns?
20

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: The OMB circular has

22 an extensive section on considerations that

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agencies need to take into account when
incorporating standards by reference into
regulations. I don't have at my fingertips
that full list, but I would refer you to that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you referring to A119?
A. I'm referring to OMB Circular A119,
correct.
Q. What is the OMB Circular A119?
A. OMB Circular A119 is instructions to
federal agencies on use of voluntary consensus
standards and participation and standards
activities.
Q. Are you aware of any change in a
proposed incorporation by reference of a
standard in a regulation as a result of public
comment?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't have that
information, since I have never worked at an
agency that issues regulations.
BY MR. BECKER:

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. Are you aware of any instance in
which there has been a change in a proposed
incorporation by reference of a standard in a
regulation as a result of input by the standard
development organization that publishes that
standard that would be incorporated by
reference?
A. I don't have the details of a
particular -- any particular rulemaking
process, so I can't speak to that.
Q. Sitting here today, are you aware of
any such instances?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instances in
which a standards development organization has
asked that its standard not be incorporated by
reference into a regulation?
A. Not personally, no.
Q. Are you aware of any change in a
proposed incorporation by reference of a
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standard in a regulation as a result of any
proceeding under the Administrative Procedure
Act?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I am not personally
aware of that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you generally aware of any
instance where a standards development
organization has asked that its standard not be
incorporated by reference into a regulation?
A. No.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you generally aware of any
instances where a standards development
organization has asked that its standard be
incorporated by reference in a regulation?
A. No.
Q. So you are not aware of any instance
where a standards development organization has
asked that its standard be incorporated by
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reference into a regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So my responsibilities
at NIST and the responsibilities of the
standards coordination office were at a very
high policy level. We did not engage in
specific -- specific engagements between
standards development organizations and
agencies.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What about in your role at ANSI or
at any of the standards development
organizations that you have participated with?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: M I aware of any
instance in which a standards development
organization asked to have a standard? No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever discussed with anyone
the possibility of a standards development
organization asking that its standard not be

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incorporated by reference into a regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you ever come to hear directly
or indirectly that a standards development
organization asked that its standard not be
incorporated by reference into a regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any benefit to a standards
development organization in having its standard
incorporated by reference into a regulation?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So since I have never
been employed by a standards development
organization, I can't speak to the benefit that
might accrue.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Even despite being a board member of
two standards development organizations?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. In my memory, those issues were not
discussed at the board level.
Q. Was incorporation by reference ever
discussed at the board level at either of the
standards development organizations that you
were a board member of?
A. Not that I represent.
Q. Was incorporation by reference ever
discussed at the board level at ANSI?
A. There are several board meetings
which reports on incorporation by reference
were provided. I believe Public.Resource.Org
has those documents as a result of a FOIA
request made to NIST.
Q. Does -- does ANSI advocate for the
incorporation by reference of standards into
regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: ANSI advocates for
federal agencies reliance on voluntary
consensus standards in carrying out their
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mission responsibilities.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "reliance," what do
you mean by that?
A. So depending on the agency, organic
legislation and their authorities, there are
various ways that agencies can rely on
voluntary standards to carry out their
missions.
Q. Does that -- including incorporation
by reference -A. Yes.
Q. -- in the regulations?
A. That includes incorporation by
reference into regulations.
Q. What are the other ways that an
agency could rely on voluntary standards to
carry out its mission?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: In the guidance area,
agencies can point to standards that are
relevant to an agency mission space and
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identify those for interested members of the
regulated community.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "point to standards
that are relevant to an agency mission and
identify those for interested members of the
regulated community," what's the difference
between that and incorporation by reference?
A. Incorporation by reference is a very
specific term. It's for documents that are
incorporated by reference into the Code of
Federal Regulations, so that is different than
identifying standards as part of guidance.
Q. Why wouldn't an agency just identify
a standard as part of guidance?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: It depends on the
agency. What their -- their organic act and
the -- Congress, the direction Congress has
given to them as to how to carry out their
regulatory responsibilities so it's unique, it
depends on the agency.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm not certain I understand.
A. You would have to look to the
particular agency, scope of responsibilities
and how they are directed by Congress to carry
out those responsibilities. It differs from
agency to agency.
Q. So why would an agency -- why would
an agency just refer to a standard rather than
using incorporation by reference?
A. It may not -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It may not be
permitted under their authorizing legislation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why wouldn't referring to a standard
be permitted under authorizing legislation?
A. Well, I can't speak to that.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: You'd have to check

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

with agency -- with those particular agencies.
MR. GRIFFIN: Just pause for one
second.
Before you answer, just pause for
one second.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instances where
an agency both refers to standards and uses
incorporation by reference?
A. Not off the top of my head. I'm
sure there are instances where that occurs.
MR. GRIFFIN: We just hit the
two-hour mark, so whenever you -MR. BECKER: Sure. We can take a
break in just a few minutes unless someone is
dying to take a break right now.
MR. GRIFFIN: No, no.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You said that ANSI advocates for
federal agencies to rely on consensus standards
in carrying out their mission responses, and
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that there are various ways that agencies can
rely on voluntary standards to carry out their
missions.
One way of relying on those
standards is by incorporation by reference and
the other is by simply referring to those
standards, correct?
MR. FEE: Objection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: "An" other way, not
"the" other way.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what are -- other than
incorporation by reference and referring to
these standards, are there other ways that an
agency could rely on voluntary standards to
carry out its mission?
A. So that is outside of my area of
expertise.
Q. Are you aware of any other ways,
other than referring to standards or
incorporating standards by reference into
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regulation?
A. So I'm not going to guess as to
possible ways agencies may rely. It differs
from agency to agency.
Q. Does ANSI ever advocate for an
agency referring to a standard rather than
incorporating a standard by reference into
regulation?
A. That's the agency's decision.
Q. Is that a no?
A. That's a no.
Q. Does ANSI ever advocate for an
agency incorporating a standard by reference
into regulation rather than simply referring to
the standard?
A. No. I said that's the agency's
decision.
Q. Does ANSI ever discuss the benefits
or detriments of incorporation by reference
versus other reference to a standard in
regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: ANSI as an institute?
I referred to the OMB Circular A119 and other
relevant documents I referred to earlier that
provides the overall context for this situation
so ANSI operates within that context.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And my question is: Does ANSI, as
an organization, ever discuss the benefits or
detriments of incorporation by reference versus
other reference to a standard in regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: With agencies?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Or generally.
A. No, not at that level of
specificity.
Q. Do they do so at a different level
of specificity?
A. No, you are asking for my personal
recollection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The institute does not

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

get into those types of differentiations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did NIST ever advocate for reference
to a standard as opposed to incorporation by
reference of a standard into regulation?
A. No, again, that's the agency's
decision.
Q. Did NIST ever provide guidance as to
when an agency should reference a standard
versus incorporate the standard by reference
into regulation?
A. No. That's the responsibility of
the individual regulatory agency.
MR. BECKER: We can take a break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
the record. This is the end of Media Unit No.
1. The time is 12:23.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back
on the record. This is the start of Media Unit
No. 2. The time is 1:11.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. Ms. Saunders, are there any answers
to questions earlier today that you realized
are incorrect or that you would like to change?
A. I think we've covered the point that
I neglected to mention the first time you asked
me about my positions in which -- at ANSI,
which I neglected to mention, I was a vice
chair but we covered that in a later exchange.
Beyond that, I don't think I have
any connections.
Q. Okay. And, Ms. Saunders, if you
wouldn't mind, if you could just try to speak a
little bit slower -A. I am trying.
Q. So our court reporter can get
everything and your attorney can make
objections. I know it's -- it's hard to do -speak at the cadence required for a deposition.
A. I will do my best.
MR. BECKER: Can you please mark
that. I believe that is Exhibit 3.
(Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for
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identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 3.
This is the document produced by
ANSI at Bates No. ANSI 1536.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is this document?
A. This is the current ANSI
organizational chart.
Q. So this document was produced in
2015. Is there -- has there been any change to
the ANSI organizational chart between 2015 and
today that you are aware of?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: This looks -- this
looks accurate as of 2019.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Great. What positions on this ANSI
organization chart have you held?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: I have served, as we
noted earlier, on the ANSI board of directors.
I have served on the national policy committee
and as the chair of the national policy
committee. I have actually served on the
appeals board. This is one level below the
national policy committee.
I have served as a member and also a
chair of the international policy committee,
and as a government member, I was a member of
the government member from up here.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That's the government member listing
under forums?
A. Correct. And I served on several
occasions on the nominating committee which is
not a standing committee that's reconstituted
every year. Hold on a second. That's it.
(Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, I have handed you what

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

has been marked as Exhibit No. 4.
This is a document produced as
PRO_00264718 to PRO_00264723.
Have you ever seen this document
before?
A. I must have, since it was a document
provided as part of discovery in response to
the FOIA request. It is a printout, as it says
at the top, of the NIST standard committee
participation database.
Q. Starting on the third to last page
of Exhibit No. 4 which is Bates-stamped
PRO_00264721, does this have a listing of the
SDOs that you have had a membership with?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It lists the standards
activities in which I participated that are
recorded in the standard committee
participation database. It appears to include
everything.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. Here, it lists ANSI as an SDO; is
that correct?
A. It lists ANSI as an SDO. It doesn't
list ANSI -- it lists ANSI as an SDO because
the database does not make provisions for other
types of organizations. ANSI is not an SDO.
Q. Are there other types of
organizations other than SDOs and ANSI that
would be listed in this database?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No. ANSI is the only
one, but ANSI is unique in that the database
was developed to track standards committee
participation which is mostly in SDOs. ANSI is
a policy level organization and it is included
in the database.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Looking over the -- this list, are
there any committees that you have been part of
for an SDO or ANSI that are not listed here?
A. The standards committee
participation database does not list my
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participation in ASTM E50 because I believe
that would have been 1993. That predated the
existence of the database.
Q. Anything else?
A. No.
Q. When you were participating with -on the committee for ASTM E50, what was your
role?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I was a member of the
standards committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does a member of the standards
committee do?
A. A member of the standards committee
participate in the development of documents -standards under the -- that come under the
purview of that committee.
In this specific case, because E50
operated and operates as a U.S. technical
advisory group to the International
Organization for Standardization technical

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committee 207, it operated as -- in developing
U.S. positions on standards that were being
developed in ISO.
Q. Did E50 develop any ASTM standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I was specifically
participating in that committee in its role as
the U.S. technical advisory group to ISO, so
the documents I commented on and in which I
participated in discussions were to be ISO
standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "to be ISO standards,"
what's the distinction between that and an ASTM
standard?
A. Those are two different -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Those are two
different standards organizations. The
International Organization for Standardization
is headquartered in Geneva, participation is on
a national standards body basis, and ANSI is

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

the national standards body representing the
U.S. to ISO. ANSI accredits U.S. technical
advisory groups. In this case, the technical
advisory group to TC 207 was administered by
ASTM.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Going back to Exhibit No. 3, and now
that you have the benefit of having Exhibit No.
4 in front of you, are there any additional
positions on the ANSI organization chart that
you have participated in that you didn't
previously tell me about?
A. I neglected to mention the executive
committee and I think a reason I did not
mention that is by dent of my -- it's a
chairman chair position first for the IPC and
the national policy committee, you are -- those
chairs are also automatically members of the
ANSI executive committee as are ANSI vice
chairs are automatically members of the ANSI
executive committee.
Q. Approximately how many individuals
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are on the ANSI executive committee?
A. Approximately 18.
Q. What is the role of the ANSI
executive committee?
A. The ANSI executive committee is -serves as a subset of the ANSI board. The
executive committee meets three times a year
and is typically the committee where ANSI
policy positions that will be further
deliberated by the board are first -- first
discussed.
The executive committee is also
responsible for approving nominations of chair
positions I believe.
Q. What are the ANSI forums that's
listed here on the upper left side of Exhibit
No. 3?
A. As I mentioned earlier, ANSI has
different membership categories. These -there is a forum for each of the membership
categories.
Q. When you say, "there is a forum for
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Page 125

1 each of the membership categories," what
2 exactly is the forum?
3

A.

So as a government member of -- I

4 say representative of a government member,
5 ANSI, I was automatically a member of the
6 forum. It is -- each of the fora are -- forums
7 are places where a membership category can meet
8 or -- to discuss shared interests and can share
9 information.
10

Q.

So this is where government -- the

11 government member forum would be one where
12 government members of ANSI would meet and share
13 information?
14

A.

Yes.

15

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

16

BY MR. BECKER:

17

Q.

Did you ever participate in the ANSI

18 government member forum?
19

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

20

THE WITNESS: As an employee of a

21 government member, I was automatically a member
22 of the government member forum.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Did you use that forum to engage in

3 communications with other government members?
4

A.

Well, official communications? I

5 mean, can you clarify? I mean, the forum
6 periodically -- the forum periodically had
7 meetings.
8

Q.

Did you participate in those

9 meetings?
10

A.

I probably participated in a few of

11 those meetings.
12

Q.

Do you know how regularly they had

13 meetings?
14

A.

The forum -- the government member

15 forum did not meet regularly.
16

Q.

Would that be once a year or there

17 is just no -- when you say, "it doesn't meet
18 regularly," do you mean that there is no set
19 number of meetings per year?
20

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

21

THE WITNESS: What I meant is that

22 in my memory, the government member forum would
[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

meet periodically.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you recall approximately how
frequently?
A. One to two times a year.
Q. What is the role of the appeals
board on the national policy committee?
A. So the -- I mentioned earlier, that
two of the committees which currently come
under the responsibility of the national policy
committee are the ANSI executive -- the ANSI
board of standards review and the ANSI
executive standards council. These two
entities are responsible for managing the
process by which American national standards
are developed and approved.
As part of the ANSI essential
requirements for process, there is a dispute
settlement provision so -- and there can be an
appeal at several levels of an action that is
taken by an accredited standards developing
organization or -- and there can be appeal
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about a particular standard, an American
national standard as well. The appeals board
is the final level of appeal at ANSI with
respect to actions related to American national
standards.
Q. What kind of disputes would come
under that dispute settlement provision?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Organizations can
raise questions about conformance to the ANSI
essential requirement, emulates to the process
of developing American national standards. It
specifically does not touch on the technical
content of the standard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are the ANSI essential
requirements?
A. So you can find a copy of the ANSI
essential requirements documents on the ANSI
website. As I mentioned earlier, the ANSI
essential requirements relate to openness,
transparency, balance, due process and
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consensus.
Q. Are you aware of any instances when
anyone has complained about the difficulty in
accessing a standard that is incorporated by
reference into federal regulation?
A. May I just add to my previous
answer.
Q. Of course.
A. Lack of dominance is an essential
requirement that I forgot.
Q. What is lack of dominance?
A. So balance and lack of dominance are
related, a balance of interest and the lack of
dominance of any particular interest category
in the consensus process.
Q. So does that mean that if, say,
industry had a majority of members or something
like that in the development of a standard,
then it might not be given ANSI accreditation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What it means is that
standards developing organizations who process,

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conform to the essential requirements must make
best efforts to ensure balance, but also within
that balance, lack of dominance.
They may do that a variety of ways,
so if one interest category has a larger number
of participants then another interest category,
they can address -- they can address lack of
dominance through weighted devoting. There are
a variety of different ways.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instance where
ANSI refused to -- or excuse me.
Are you aware of any instance where
ANSI declined to provide accreditation for a
particular standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So the actual
terminology would be that ANSI accredits
standards developing organizations, as
standards developing organizations may apply
for accreditation by ANSI, and the
accreditation relates to the conformance of the

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

process that the standards developing
organization administers to the ANSI essential
requirements.
Only accredited SDOs can submit
draft -- can submit draft standards for
consideration as American national standards.
So they -- so they don't -- ANSI does not
accredit the standard. It accredits the
standards developing organization.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Thank you.
What is the benefit of having an
organization accredited by ANSI so that it can
submit draft standards for consideration as an
American national standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So ANSI considers the
benefit to be that the essential requirements
are the bedrock of the voluntary consensus
standards process. Very similar requirements
are reflected in the World Trade Organization's
technical barriers to trade agreement in its
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description of the process for international
standards development.
Typically, and a standards
developing organization will submit a
particular project for processes in American
national standard because its stakeholders find
that valuable. That may be -- its stakeholders
find that valuable.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are there other benefits to being
able to submit a standard as an American
national standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes, but I can't
recall them -- I can't reflect them for you
right off the top of my head. We have an
entire set of pages on the American national
standards process and a presentation that our
senior standards coordinator gives
periodically, but I'm not recalling all the
benefits at this time.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. Are American national standards more
likely to be used by industry versus if a
standard is not designated an American national
standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The American national
-- the body of American national standards is a
very small subset of the overall body of
standards that are used generally in the United
States or globally. There are about 12,000 and
they tend to be -- they tend to be -- have
tended to be health and safety standards in
long established industry sectors.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Going back to my question: Are
American national standards more likely to be
used by industry versus if a standard is not
designated an American national standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are American national standards more

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likely to be used by agencies for incorporation
by reference than standards that are not
designated American national standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So ANSI does not track
the implementation of particular American
national standards. ANSI is responsible for
the process by which those standards are
developed.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What do you mean by
"implementation?"
A. Use. The use of the standard.
Q. Is incorporation by reference a form
of implementation?
A. Yes.
Q. What are some other forms of
implementation?
A. A purchaser of a product that may be
-- as covered by an American national standard
may specify to suppliers that in order to be
considered a part of their supply chain, they

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

must conform to a standard.
So purchasers of products, either
individual products or retailers, for example,
who have requirements for qualified suppliers,
it's possible insurance companies could give a
preference to particular standards.
Q. Did -- does NIST track the
incorporation by reference of standards into
regulations?
A. So NIST until 2016 maintained the
standards incorporated by reference database,
and in that sense, yes, provided information on
incorporations into the Code of Federal
Regulations.
Q. What happened in 2016?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The database had been
maintained by a contractor to the standard
services division. I believe that contractor
retired. In addition, ANSI had begun the
development and maintenance of the ANSI
incorporation by reference portal.
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So what is the ANSI incorporation by
reference portal?
A. So the ANSI IBR portal is a
read-only portal providing read-only access to
standards that are incorporated by reference
into the Code of Federal Regulations.
Q. So earlier, when I said, are
American national standards more likely to be
used by agencies for incorporation by reference
than standards that are not designated American
national standards, you said ANSI does not
track the temporary -- excuse me. The text is
not complete here.
But I believe you said that ANSI
doesn't track the incorporation by reference of
standards; is that true?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So ANSI, as an
institute, does not track the incorporation by
reference in the Code of Federal Regulations.
ANSI -- NIST provided the database, the
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standards incorporated by reference database to
ANSI as a basis for the creation of the -- of
the ANSI portal and ANSI maintains that portal.
When federal agencies incorporate a
standard by reference, either as part of a
notice of proposed rulemaking or later on as an
actual final rule, they reach out to ANSI and
ask to have that standard reflected in the
portal.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How did the creation of the ANSI IBR
portal affect the maintenance of the SIBR
database?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So the standards
incorporated by reference database is different
than the ANSI IBR portal. The standards
incorporated by reference database listed the
-- would list the reference, the specific
reference in the Code of Federal Regulations.
The agency that was incorporating the reference
and the place in the Code of Federal

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Regulations where the reference could be found,
and a -- and the number or title, in most cases
there is a number of the standard and the
sponsoring standards developing organization.
The SIBR database did not include
any standards content. It simply identified
the referenced document by title or by number.
The ANSI IBR portal provides read-only access
to the documents that are incorporated by
reference for those SDOs that do not maintain
their own link, their own portal for reasonable
availability.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was the creation of the ANSI IBR
portal a factor in NIST's decision to stop
maintaining the SIBR database?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the
answer to that because that decision was taken
while I was the associate director for
management resources, so I have no part in that
decision.

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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is it then that you referenced
the creation of the ANSI IBR database when I
asked what happened in 2016 to cause the -NIST to cease maintaining the SIBR database?
A. 2016 was also the year that they
revised OMB Circular A119 was published in
January of 2016 with an extensive discussion of
reasonable availability when agencies
incorporate by reference.
My understanding is that ANSI
developed and offered the IBR portal as a means
of reasonable availability, and as I mentioned
earlier, it was my understanding that NIST
standards coordination office provided the SIBR
database to ANSI as a basis for that portal,
but I wasn't part of the decision as to timing.
Q. When did ANSI create the IBR portal?
A. I wasn't part of that decision as to
timing so I can't speak to that.
Q. Do you know why ANSI created the IBR
portal?
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MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: To assist the federal
agency community with addressing the reasonable
availability principle.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Was there a concern that without the
ANSI IBR portal, standards incorporated by
reference into regulations otherwise would not
be reasonably available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: ANSI provided the
portal as an assistance, an aid to small
standards developing organizes that might not
have the resources to provide their own
read-only access provisions.
ANSI also as the national standards
body to ISO and IEC is the only organization in
the U.S. that could arrange with ISO and IEC
for access to those documents.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. My question was: Was there a
concern that without the ANSI IBR portal,
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standards incorporated by reference into
regulations otherwise would not be reasonably
available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe
that was the -- there was a general concern. I
believe -- ANSI provided the portal as an
assistance to small SDOs to minimize the burden
with respect to reasonable availability. I
would not say that there was a concern that
without it, there wouldn't be reasonable
availability.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever heard someone say that
without a read-only access, standards
incorporated by reference into regulations are
not reasonably available?
A. No. Both the OMB circular -- the
OMB circular specifically lists a variety of
different ways, which I will not be able to
repeat since I don't have the circular in front

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of me, for it to assure reasonable availability
including read-only access but not limited to
read-only access.
Q. So you are saying you have never
heard the -- anyone opine that without
read-only access, standards incorporated by
reference into regulations are not reasonably
available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.
That is very general. I mean, I may have heard
an individual say that. It's not something
that I can attest to.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever heard -- have you ever
heard anyone opine that standards incorporated
by reference into regulations generally are not
reasonably available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I may have heard that
comment. Again, I can't attest to that

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comment.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever heard Carl Malamud say
that standards incorporated by reference into
regulations are not reasonably available?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you heard anybody else say that
standards incorporated by reference into
regulations are not reasonably available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So there were
significant discussions as part of the
administrative conference for the -- of the
U.S., and as part of the administrative
conference of the U.S., who the administrative
of conference developed their recommendation of
incorporation by reference, and as part of
those discussions, in which I believe Carl
Malamud participated as well as did many other
individuals, administrative law practitioners
and many others, I'm sure those comments came
up.
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you participate in that?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else participated in that -- in
that discussion?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: You would have to -I'm sure the ACUS -- the administrative
conference of the U.S. has the records of the
participation. There were several public
meetings and I think at least a six-month
process of discussion in the development of the
ACUS, A-C-U-S recommendation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever heard someone say that
a particular standard is not reasonably
available -- excuse me.
Have you ever heard someone opine
that a particular standard incorporated by
reference into regulations is not reasonably
available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: I can't speak to that.
It's very -- nonspecific question, have I ever
heard.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instance where
an individual has said that they were unable to
access a standard that was incorporated by
reference into regulation?
A. It is likely that there are
constituencies that have made that comment.
Q. So my question was: Whether you
have ever heard that -- have you ever learned
of an individual complaining of not being able
to access a standard incorporated by reference
into regulation?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: In my position at
NIST, we never -- I never -- I am not aware
that we received comments -- a comment directly
from an individual about that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What about other than in your

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position at NIST?
1
MR. FEE: Same objection.
2
THE WITNESS: I didn't -- I haven't
3
received any of that -- any comment of that
4
type from -- in my position at ANSI.
5
BY MR. BECKER:
6
Q. Have you ever heard of an individual
7
saying that, that individual was unable to
8
access a standard that was incorporated by
9
reference into regulation?
10
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
11
THE WITNESS: It's possible. I
12
don't have a specific memory.
13
BY MR. BECKER:
14
Q. Do you have a general memory of an 15
individual stating that he or she was unable to 16
access a standard that was incorporated by
17
reference into regulation?
18
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
19
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
20
THE WITNESS: So what I can speak to 21
is the fact that there are a variety of means
22

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that agencies make available to their -- the
regulated constituency and the public reading
rooms, depository libraries, a variety of
different means to access regulations and
related documentation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I don't think you have answered my
question, so I'm going to go back and say it
again.
Do you have a general memory of an
individual stating that he or she was unable to
access a standard that was incorporated by
reference into a regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection. Asked and
answered.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As I said, I don't
have a memory of an individual expressing that
concern. I am aware that there were extensive
discussions under the auspices of the
administrative conference of the U.S. and in
the process of revising the OMB circular where
Page 148

those comments may have been made.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instance where
a government employee has said that he or she
was unable to access a standard that had been
incorporated by reference into a regulation?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I -- you have to give
me an example. I can't answer that general -a general statement like that. It's -BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there any instance you know of
where a government employee has said that he or
she was unable to access a standard that had
been incorporated by reference into a
regulation?
MR. FEE: Objection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you ever learn of a report of a
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person or entity saying that they were unable
to access a standard incorporated by reference
into regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I thought I answered
that. A report -- can you repeat the question.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes. Did you ever learn of a report
of a person or entity saying that they were
unable to access a standard incorporated by
reference into regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So I was chief of the
standard services division for seven years and
the head of the standards coordination office
for -- in my position as chief of the standard
services division for seven years and director
of the standards coordination office for a
little over a year and a half, it is possible
that I came into contact with a comment like
that but I have no specific memory about that.
(Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for

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identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I've handed you what's been marked
as Exhibit 5.
This is the document produced by
ANSI as ANSI 2690 to ANSI 2692.
Do you recognize this document?
A. I remember the joint meeting, yes.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's the draft report of a joint
interagency committee on standards policy, ANSI
government member forum meeting with standards
developers.
Q. What is ICSP?
A. The ICSP is the Interagency
Committee on Standards Policy. The committee
is established under OMB Circular A119 and it
is comprised of the standards executives of the
federal agencies that are tasked with
implementing the circular.
Q. Is that a government committee?
A. That is.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. What is GMF?
A. GMF is the ANSI Government Member
Forum.
Q. So is this a meeting of a government
committee and an ANSI committee?
A. That's correct.
Q. This took place on April 21, 2011?
A. That's what the document says, yes.
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. It says that you conducted the
opening of the meeting; is that correct?
A. Yes, in my position as chair of the
interagency committee on standards policy.
Q. Do you remember what the purpose of
this meeting was?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The purpose of the
meeting is outlined in Paragraph 3: "ANSI
staff agreed to arrange a meeting that would
allow the SDO community to showcase their
efforts to meet the needs of federal agencies
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with respect to access to standards and
participation in the development of standards."
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What were the needs of the federal
agencies for access to standards?
A. So federal agencies -- it is useful
for federal agencies, regulatory agencies in
particular to have access to standards as -- in
support of them conducting their mission
activities which include but are not limited to
development -- writing regulations.
Q. What is the role of federal agencies
in the development of standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
earlier, the law, the National Technology
Transfer and Advancement Act as supported by
the OMB circular directs federal agencies where
consistent with the mission and public need to
also -- not only use voluntary consensus
standards but to participate in their
development.
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How is it that federal employees
participate in the development of standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: From my experience as
a NIST employee, we -- technical staff at NIST
participated as members of committees. They
might, if determined by the committee, actually
chair a committee. Those are methods of
participation. Obviously, serving on boards of
standards developing organizations as well
where relevant.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. At this meeting, did federal
employees opine that they would like to have
free access to standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no memory of
that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Could you turn to the third page of

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Exhibit No. 5.
Could you read the paragraph at the
top of that page.
A. "At least one federal agency noted
that they billed standards into their business
models and opined that it would be more
beneficial to pay the same membership dues as
all other participants, if it meant that access
to the standards was free. Free access to
standards as part of their membership would
also support their participation in the
development process as opposed to paying for
individual standards and receiving a special
membership discount."
Q. How is it that free access to
standards as part of a membership would support
government participation in the development
process?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can't -- I can't
speak to that comment since it came from an

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

unidentified federal agency and I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Three paragraphs below that, it
says: "The open discussion concluded noting
that each of the six SDOs have different
business models but nonetheless each one makes
provisions to accommodate the needs of the
federal agencies to achieve greater
participation in the development process and
access to the standards themselves."
What kind of provisions do SDOs
engage in to accommodate the needs of federal
agencies to access standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So while I know
generally that they do, I am not privy to the
business operations of individual SDOs so I
can't answer that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does this draft report accurately
characterize the discussion at the meeting to
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the best of your knowledge?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So given that the
meeting took place more than eight years ago, I
-- it seems accurate to me.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Were these reports regarding the -this meeting and other meetings like it
regularly prepared and maintained in the course
of ANSI business?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Meeting reports of all
-- of policy commitments are developed and
maintained and certainly for forum meetings as
well, yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 6 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I am handing you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 6.
This is a document produced by ANSI
as ANSI 2296.
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Do you recognize this document?
A. It is the draft agenda of the same
meeting we just discussed.
Q. Were draft agendas such as this
regularly prepared and maintained in the course
of ANSI business?
A. Yes, draft agendas for meetings are
generally maintained -- prepared and
maintained.
(Deposition Exhibit 7 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Including this one?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q . Exhibit No. 6?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So this was a joint
meeting of the interagency committee on
standards policy and the joint and the
government member forum. A portion of the
meeting involving the government member forum

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was an open meeting. The follow-on session
after lunch, the interagency committee on
standards policy was a closed session just for
government members of the interagency
committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. My question to you was whether
Exhibit No. 6 had been prepared and maintained
in the course of business?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So I'm not following
your reference. The two are exactly the same
except the second one includes the closed
session of the interagency committee on
standards policy.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any reason to believe
that either Exhibit 6 or Exhibit 7 are not -excuse me.
Do you have any reason to believe
that Exhibit 6 is a document that was not

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

maintained -- prepared and maintained in the
regular course of business?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: This agenda would have
been developed and maintained as part of the
regular course of business for ANSI and for the
ICSP.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you Exhibit No. 7
which is ANSI 2538.
Do you recognize this document?
A. As I said earlier, it's the same
agenda for the joint meeting but includes the
reference to the closed ICSP session that
followed the joint meeting.
MR. BECKER: Let's take a short
break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
the record. This is the end of Media Unit No.
2. The time is 2:07.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back
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on the record. This is the start of Media Unit
No. 3. The time is 2:36.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, during the break, have
you come to the realization that any of your
prior answers was incorrect that you would like
to -- or are there any answers that you would
like to amend?
A. I would simply like to note that
Exhibit 6 is the draft agenda for the joint
meeting and Exhibit 7 is the final agenda which
includes what was in the draft plus the
addition of the closed session. That's the
only difference I seen between the two
documents.
(Deposition Exhibit 8 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, I have handed you what
has been marked as Exhibit 8 which starts with
the Page No. 1 and says: "Technical barriers
to trade," at the very top and then ends on
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Page 26.
Do you know what this document is?
A. It's the World Trade Organization's
technical barriers to trade agreement.
Q. Is this the document that you had
referenced earlier when you talked about the
definition for standards?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you turn -- if you turn to
Page 23, is that the definition for standards
at Bullet Point No. 3 towards the bottom that
you had referenced earlier:
A. "A technical specification approved
by a recognized standardizing body for repeated
or continuous application with which compliance
is not mandatory." That is accurate. That's
not the -- yes.
Q. What were you going to say?
A. I was referring to the ISO
definition of standardization which I believe
is the same.
Q. Okay. So it says: "A standard is a

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technical specification approved by a
recognized standardizing body for repeated or
continuous application with which compliance is
not mandatory," correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And above, at Bullet Point No. 1, it
references the definition of technical
specification; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It says: "A specification contained
in a document which lays down characteristics
of a product such as levels of quality,
performance, safety or dimensions. It may
include or deal exclusively with terminology
symbols, testing and test methods, packaging,
marking or labeling requirements as they apply
to a product;" is that correct?
A. Yes. So you take the two together.
This is a technical specification and then down
in standard, it's a technical specification,
referring to this paragraph, which is approved
by a recognized standardizing body. Take the

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

two together.
Q. And then it references at Point No.
2, technical regulation -A. Yes.
Q. -- and defines that as: "A
technical specification including the
applicable administrative provisions with which
compliance is mandatory;" is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What is -- in your understanding,
what is the difference between a technical
specification and a technical regulation?
A. One is mandatory and the other is
not.
Q. Is a standard that has been
incorporated by reference into a regulation a
technical regulation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not itself. It's a
component of a technical regulation.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. What are the other components of a
technical regulation?
A. So depending on the agency, a
technical regulation would include all of the
requirements with which the agency deems
necessary for the regulated community to
comply. It might, as part of that, might
include reporting requirements, a variety of
other actions. So I can't speak any more
specifically than that. It depends on the law
that is being implemented.
(Deposition Exhibit 9 was marked for
identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 9.
This is a document titled: "IBR
Handbook, July 2018, Office of the Federal
Register."
Do you recognize this document?
A. I do.
Q. What is this document?
Pages 161 - 164

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A. This document is the IBR handbook
that is produced by the Office of the Federal
Register.
Q. Is this the IBR handbook that we
were discussing earlier in the deposition
today?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Could you please turn to Page 7 of
Exhibit 9.
And at the bottom of that page, it
says: "What is the required availability for
IBR material? A, incorporated materials must
be reasonably available."
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. And do you see the paragraph
immediately under that that's labeled .1?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It says: "Material that is
incorporated by reference must be 'reasonably
available' during the life cycle of the
relevant regulation and its regulatory

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programs. This can pose a challenge for agency
especially when material is copyrighted. We
interpret 'reasonably available' in a flexible
case-by-case manner that takes specific
considerations into consideration. However,
the agency must provide the basis for a finding
of reasonably available."
Then it says: "2, when necessary,
the responsible agency should collaborate with
the standards development organizations and
other publishers of incorporated material to
ensure that the public has reasonable access to
the incorporated documents."
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. Are you aware of any efforts within
the U.S. Government to collaborate with SDOs to
ensure that the public has reasonable access to
incorporated documents?
A. So an individual agency when it
engages in a rulemaking may reach out to the
owner of the copyrighted standards that the

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

agency intends to incorporate in whole or in
part, to make -- to discuss with the owning SDO
ways to make the material reasonably available.
To publish a notice of proposed
rulemaking in the Office of the Federal
Register, it is good practice to have a copy of
the standard that is incorporated by reference
available at a minimum in an agency reading
room.
So yes, I am aware of times when
agencies have reached out to SDOs to discuss
access to incorporated documents.
Q. What is an agency reading room?
A. So each agency has a -historically, it was a physical reading room, a
room that people -- that interested parties
could come to in an agency where -- for a
regulatory agency, hard copy notices of
proposed rules and other documents would be
available for reading. Many agencies these
days have what are called electronic reading
rooms.
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Q. Is that a reading room that is
available online?
A. It can be, yes.
Q. Do those agencies' electronic
reading rooms provide copies of standards that
are incorporated by reference into regulations?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So I don't know the
specifics of individual reading rooms. I do
know that some agencies will point to the
owning organization, the owning centers
development organization, if that organization
has a -- their own portal or reading room. In
some cases, agencies have pointed interested
parties to the ANSI IBR portal, because ANSI
posts documents on request from federal
agencies that are engaged in proposed
rulemaking. It varies from agency to agency.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of specific instances
where agencies have collaborated with SDOs to
ensure that the public has reasonable access to
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an incorporated standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I think that's a good
practice for agencies, so yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you name any of those particular
instances that you are aware of?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Department of
Transportation across a range of its programs
makes -- works with relevant SDOs to assure
reasonable access and there are likely others.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. How do you define "reasonable
access?"
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
right down here on the bottom of Page 8B, NARA
outlines a few ways of -- that agencies may
make incorporated material reasonably
available. There is also a discussion of

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reasonable availability in -- as part of the
ACUS proceeding, administrative conference of
the U.S. as well as in the OMB circular.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It says at the bottom of Point B on
Page 8 that you're referencing: "Remember,
read-only access on its own may not meet the
reasonable availability requirement at the
final rule stage of rulemaking. If the
regulated parties are not able to use the
material (which may be different than simply
reading or accessing it) throughout the life of
the rulemaking, this could lead to enforcement
issues."
What do you understand that to mean?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I understand that to
be an advice to agencies regarding the fact
that read-only access might need to be
supplemented by other means of access in -- at
the final rule stage, when the rule is finally

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

in place.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of potential uses of
material that's been incorporated by reference
into regulations beyond uses that include
reading or accessing that material?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you
repeat that. I didn't quite follow.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Yes. Are you aware -- so other than
reading or accessing, are you aware of other
potential uses of IBR standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm still
not following.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So it says in the second sentence
that I had read a moment ago: "If the
regulated parties are not able to use the
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material which may be different than simply
reading or accessing it," what other uses of
incorporated material is there other than
reading or accessing?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, many industry -many industries that are regulated have
subscriptions to standards as a normal course
of business that they use in terms of
conducting their every day business, so a use
of a material would include actually
implementing and ensuring that if your product
needs to comply with a particular -- conform to
a particular standard, your engineers have
access to those documents so that they can
ensure that's the case.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Would a use of the material also
include duplicating a portion of the
incorporated document and providing that to a
colleague?
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MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So my understanding -as I mentioned earlier, standards are
copyrighted documents and individuals in
companies or elsewhere can buy an individual
copy of a copyrighted document. A company or
organization can pay for a -- what is called a
site license so that any number of individuals
at that company or organization can use the
document, but if you buy an individual copy, my
understanding of copyright protection is that
you are not to make copies of that document.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you had any training in
copyright law?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I have not had any
training in copyright law.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. My question was: Would the use of
incorporated material also include duplicating

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a portion of the incorporated document and
1
providing it to a colleague? Yes or no.
2
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
3
MR. FEE: Same objection.
4
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't call that
5
an authorized use of the material.
6
BY MR. BECKER:
7
Q. I didn't ask about authorized use.
8
I said, would a use of a material
9
also include duplicating a portion of the
10
incorporated document and providing that to a 11
colleague?
12
MR. FEE: Same objection.
13
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
14
THE WITNESS: You'd have to have
15
access to the entire document to begin with so 16
that you could copy the incorporated portion so 17
I mean, I don't know -- I'm not clear what you 18
are getting at, I mean.
19
BY MR. BECKER:
20
Q. My -- so I am trying to identify
21
other uses of material incorporated by
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

reference other than simply reading or
accessing it as described in the IBR handbook.
And I am asking if the transcription
of a portion of the incorporated document and
providing that transcription to a colleague
would constitute use?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's beyond my
capabilities to answer. I mean, you can call
anything you want to use, I suppose. I think
the intention of the National Archives and
Records Administration was with respect to what
we typically understand to be use of a standard
which is to purchase a copy and actually apply
it to the relevant product process or system.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you consulted with any
copyright experts to form your views on
copyright as applied to incorporated by
reference standards?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
Page 176

THE WITNESS: I have not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what the Fair Use
Doctrine is?
A. I have a general idea. I do not
know the specifics of the Fair Use Doctrine.
Q. What do you know about the Fair Use
Doctrine?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That a very minimal
portion of a copyrighted document may be
subject to fair use, may be allowed to be
reproduced for fair use purposes. I don't know
the extenuating circumstances.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is the basis of that view?
A. My view?
Q. Yes.
A. As I said general -- I have heard
generally about the Fair Use Doctrine. I know
nothing about the specifics of the Fair Use
Doctrine.
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Q. Do you have a view as to the effect
on a regulation if an incorporated standard is
not reasonably available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have a view as to the
enforcement of a regulation if an incorporated
standard is not reasonably available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I would like to turn to Page 9 of
this Exhibit No. 9.
At the top, it says: "C, balancing
procedural requirement and substantive
statutory authority. 1, when you propose to
incorporate material by reference, under the
NTTAA, you must balance the following: A,
statutory obligations regarding reasonable

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availability of the standards under FOIA, B,
U.S. copyright law, C, U.S. international trade
obligations, and D, the ability to
substantively regulate under its own
authorizing statutes."
What is -- do you know what NTTAA
refers to here?
A. It's the National Technology
Transfer and Advancement Act.
Q. Are you aware of any consultation by
any U.S. government agency with the copyright
office of the Library of Congress on copyright
issues related to incorporation by reference?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not personally, no.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of the U.S. Copyright
Office's position on the copyrightability of
edicts of government?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I am not.
BY MR. BECKER:

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. Are you aware of any standard
development organization consulting with the
copyright office regarding any copyright issues
concerning incorporation by reference?
A. I'm not personally aware of any
interactions.
Q. Have you received any information
about any party or individual consulting with
the U.S. Copyright Office regarding copyright
issues concerning incorporation by reference?
A. Not that I remember.
(Deposition Exhibit 10 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you Exhibit 10 which
is produced as ANSI 0638 to 0644.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Draft minutes of an executive
committee meeting of the ANSI board of
directors from 2012.
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. It's likely that I was. I don't
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have a specific memory.
Q. Could you please turn to Page 4 of
that document.
A. Okay.
Q. Agenda Item 2.3: "Federal
engagement and standards activities."
It says that: "Ms. Saunders
discussed the work of the National Science and
Technology Council subcommittee on standards
who met several times in 2011;" is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So does this refresh your
recollection that you were -A. Yes.
Q. -- present? Okay.
On the following page, Page No. 5,
there is Agenda Item 2.6, current activities of
the copyright task group.
In the second paragraph -- well,
actually let me back up.
In the first paragraph it says Ms.
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Griffin.
Who is Ms. Griffin?
A. Patty Griffin is the general counsel
for ANSI.
Q. Do you know if she was a general
counsel at -- on this date, on March 22, 2012?
A. She has been the general counsel
since 2004.
Q. Okay. It says: "Ms. Griffin
discussed recent activities of the ANSI
copyright task group including its development
of an ANSI position paper on copyright
implications of government incorporation of
voluntary consensus standards."
What is the ANSI copyright task
group?
A. So ANSI -- intellectual property
rights policy committee has two task groups,
two standing task groups, and one is the
copyright task group and the other is the
trademark, I think, task group. It's a task
group of the intellectual property rights

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materials incorporated by reference into the
Code of Federal Regulations.
Do you know what that petition is
that it's referring to?
A. I don't remember, that was eight,
not eight, seven years ago.
Q. It says: "Ms. Griffin noted that a
position paper would be sent to the ANSI IPRPC
for further input prior to ANSI governance
review."
What is the ANSI IPRPC?
A. It's the ANSI Intellectual Property
Rights Policy Committee.
Q. Have you ever been a member of the
IPRPC?
A. I have not.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what is referred to by
ANSI governance review?
A. ANSI governance means executive
committee and board review.

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policy committee.
Q. Are you a member or have you ever
been a member of the ANSI copyright task group?
A. I have not.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever assisted the ANSI
copyright task group?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what the ANSI position
paper on copyright implications of government
incorporation of voluntary consensus standards
is?
A. I do not have a memory of that. It
may be posted on the ANSI website but I don't
personally remember that.
Q. It refers to a February 27, 2012
Federal Register Notice regarding a petition to
amend the National Archives and Records
Administration's regulations governing

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Page 184

1

Q.

Remind me, were you on the ANSI

2 board as of March 22, 2012?
3

A.

I believe so.

4

Q.

The next paragraph says: "Mr.

5 Cooper discussed a box of documents including
6 73 standards that had been sent to ANSI by Mr.
7 Carl Malamud, founder of Public.Resource.Org,
8 who has been challenging SDOs rights to charge
9 for standards especially those incorporated by
10 reference."
11

Do you see that?

12

A.

I do.

13

Q.

Had you known of Carl Malamud prior

14 to the date of this meeting on March 22, 2012?
15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

How did you know of Carl Malamud?

17

A.

I had exchanges with Mr. Malamud

18 regarding -- early, much earlier than this,
19 regarding our -- the NIST standards
20 incorporated by reference database. He had
21 some questions about the information in the
22 database and some recommendations as I remember
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Page 187

for making the information more -- for
1
improving how the information was presented, so
2
I was aware of Mr. Malamud.
3
Q. Do you know when those exchanges
4
occurred?
5
A. That would have been when I was the
6
chief of the standards services division so
7
that would be -- would be no later than the end
8
of 2008.
9
Q. This also refers to a related topic,
10
as it refers to it, the Pipeline Safety,
11
Regulatory Certainty and Job Creation Act of
12
2011, which is shortened to Pipeline Bill HR
13
2845.
14
Do you know what the pipeline bill
15
is?
16
A. I remember the piece of legislation,
17
yes.
18
Q. Going back just a moment, you had
19
said that Carl Malamud had sent recommendations 20
to you.
21
Do you recall what those
22
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recommendations were?
A. I don't. That would have been ten
years ago. I do remember having exchanges with
him about the standard incorporated by
reference database, but that's the extent of my
memory.
Q. Do you know if anyone acted on Mr.
Malamud's recommendations to you?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I believe that -- of
course, as a federal government employee, we
would have taken advice and implemented that
advice where we could, so yes, I don't remember
the specifics.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It says -- so are you saying that
some of the recommendations that Carl Malamud
provided were implemented?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I
remember having an exchange with him explaining

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

the underlying approach to creating the
standards incorporated by reference database.
I don't remember the specifics.
I think he may have pointed out some
incorrect references in the database and we
corrected those.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you have any recollection as to
how much correspondence, in terms of number of
e-mails, you had with Mr. Malamud?
A. Not specifically.
Q. Do you have an estimate?
A. My estimate would be three to four
exchanges.
Q. Did you produce any of those
documents in your discovery responses?
A. I don't have those documents.
Q. And why is that?
A. Because I retired from the federal
government and all my documents remained with
the Department of Commerce. I have nothing.
Q. And all of your communications were
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with your government e-mail address?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Further down on Page 5, it
says: "It was noted that ASTM is working with
ASME and NFPA on a public relations outreach
campaign and plans to meet with the heads of
regulatory agencies to talk about the
contributions of SDOs."
Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you know what is being referred
to there?
A. Well, not more than what it says in
the text.
Q. Do you have any recollection from
the -- what discussion occurred at the meeting
regarding the public outreach campaign?
A. I do not.
Q. It then says at the next paragraph:
"Mr. Pauley noted that it was important to
address the free standards issue and the
misunderstanding by some of how the
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Page 191

standardization system works."
1
Do you know what the free standards
2
issue is?
3
A. My understanding is that Mr. Pauley
4
is referring to the comment above that -- let's
5
see. I want to get the exact wording. The
6
standards incorporated by reference should be 7
available for free.
8
Q. Who is Mr. Pauley?
9
A. Jim Pauley at the time, 2012, was
10
the chairman of the board of ANSI.
11
Q. Did -- was Mr. Pauley also
12
affiliated with NFPA at that time?
13
A. He -- Mr. Pauley's employer was the
14
electronics company. I am missing the name 15
now. Anyway, he was employed by a private 16
company in the electronics -17
electro-electronics field. He may have been -- 18
he was probably a member of the National Fire 19
Protection Association. He is an engineer.
20
Q. It goes on to say, this is referring
21
to Mr. Pauley: "He suggested that ANSI may 22
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need to engage a public relations firm to help
ANSI's communications team craft the
appropriate messaging to explain how the
standard system works and the public benefits
it brings."
Do you know if ANSI engaged a public
relations firm for that purpose?
A. ANSI did not.
Q. Why is that?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I just
-- I know that ANSI -- the institute did not
engage a public relations firm.
(Deposition Exhibit 11 was marked
for identification.)
THE WITNESS: My timing was wrong.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That was going to be my next
question.
A. I apologize. I did not remember the
timing.
Q. My reason for asking about the

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

documents was because I had not seen any such
documents like that.
I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 11.
This is the document produced as
PRO_00167221 to 167222.
Do you recognize this document?
A. I do now that you give it to me, and
that was when I was -- it was not in 2008, but
the second stint at NIST.
Q. This was the correspondence between
you and Carl Malamud that you were just
referring to; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And so Mr. Malamud asked you
questions about the SIBR database; is that
correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And he says that -- he is asking
about when the last time is that -- that NIST
had done an audit of the SIBR database; is that
correct?
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A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And he is concerned that there are
errors?
A. Correct.
Q. And he also says that he is -- he
references a few instances or several instances
where he believes there are errors; is that
correct?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. And then he says he is finding a lot
of references to fed spec and fed STD
documents.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what those -- what that
refers to?
A. GSA documents, General Services
Administration documents.
Q. Are those produced by the U.S.
Government?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he raises a concern about
how current the database is.
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A. Correct. I see that.
Q. And you respond that: "With respect
to the currency of the information compared to
the latest version of the C.F.R., the database
is not intended to be a real-time index of what
is in the C.F.R. It does not represent any
specific C.F.R. citation as it may be on a
particular day other than the day that a
specific record was verified as identified in
the database;" is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What did you mean by "verified?"
A. As I mentioned earlier, we had an
individual on contract who was charged with
searching the Code of Federal Regulations on a
daily basis to identify citations that should
be included in the standards incorporated by
reference database, so he would verify on that
day but might not go back to reverify.
Q. When you say, "might not go back to
reverify," what does that distinction mean?
MR. FEE: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: Well, what I -- what I
meant was, he would identify a record as needs
to be included in the standards incorporated by
reference database and on the day that he
identified it, it would be included. If there
were updates to that reference later, they
might not be picked up.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Your e-mail goes on to say: "The
range of review data to be incorporated into
the database runs from 2001 through 2011;" is
that correct?
A. Where are you? Oh, I see, the next
page. Yes. Yes, I said it in my e-mail.
Q. And so what does that mean?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That the individual
was reviewing the Code of Federal Regulations
from, as it existed in 2001 through 2011.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. He then in the next paragraph
writes: "You noted that several entries in the

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SIBR database contained the letters NDG or no
date given in the edition column. NIST uses
the acronym in the database when a text found
in a specific paragraph of the C.F.R.
references a voluntary consensus standard, VCS,
without citing a specific edition of the
standard."
A. Yes.
Q. Are there instances in U.S.
regulations where the text references a -excuse me, where the text incorporates a
standard by reference but doesn't say what
edition of that standard is being incorporated
by reference?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, there must be at
least as reflected in the versions of the Code
of Federal Regulations that were being
reviewed. It is considered best practice for
agencies to cite the year of the edition that
they are referencing.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. You then write: "Some confusion may
occur when misuse of the acronym NDG for a
specific standard in one SIBR record, while it
cites the specific edition of the standard in
another related record from the same agency,
such as in the case identified in your
Public.Resources.Org comments to the OFR;" is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you read Mr. Malamud's comments
to the OFR that you are referencing?
A. I had at the time obviously.
Q. You then say: "This is not an
error. It is and has been NIST's practice to
cite regulatory language exactly as it appears
in the text of each specific C.F.R. citation
and to not make assumptions about what a
regulatory agency intended in its regulation;"
is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Why didn't NIST make assumptions
about what a regulatory agency intended in its
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regulation?
A. That would be irresponsible and out
of our scope of responsibility.
Q. Why would that be irresponsible?
A. NIST is not -- NIST is not a
regulatory agency. We don't have any -- NIST
did not have any authority over regulatory
agency activities. It's the responsibility of
the regulatory agency to make accurate
citations.
Q. Wasn't NIST able to figure out what
edition of the standard was -- the agency had
intended to incorporate?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: No. Only the agency
would know that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Why is it a best practice to refer
to a particular edition of a standard when
incorporated by reference?
A. Because agencies are incorporating
specific -- a standard as it stood in a

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specific point in time. As the standard is
updated, the content of the standard may change
and an agency would have to make a separate
decision about incorporating an updated
reference.
Q. Did NIST ever contact an agency to
try to find out what edition of a standard was
intended to be incorporated by reference into a
regulation?
A. No. Periodically, we distributed
portions of the standards incorporated by
reference database to each agency so you can
sort by agency as well as by -- you can sort by
any column. We would distribute on a periodic
basis DOT's sections to the Department of
Transportation, Departments of Interior's
section to them and just note to them, you
might -- you might want to look at the data.
It's their responsibility, not NIST's
responsibility.
Q. You then give an example, you say:
"For example," in the next paragraph: "For

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example, when NIST compiled the initial
inventory of standards incorporated by
reference, the Mine Safety and Health
Administration, MSHA, referenced the National
Fire Protection Association, NFPA, National
Electric Code, NFPA 70 in 30 C.F.R. 57.12048,
without citing a specific edition. NDG appears
in the edition column for that record."
"However, NIST also found other MSHA
references to NSPA 70 that identified a
specific edition. For example, in Paragraph 3,
C.F.R. 75.513-1, MSHA references the 1968
edition of NFPA 70. In this record, 1968
appears in the edition column. NIST cannot
speculate that the nondated incorporation
refers to or is intended to refer to the 1968
edition of NFPA 70 referenced in the date of
incorporation."
"That intent or interpretation is up
to the regulatory agency promulgating the
regulation. The format and manner in which
SIBRs are identified in the C.F.R. is an
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individual agency decision;" is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So can you explain to me so I better
understand why is it that -- that NIST couldn't
just assume that the earlier reference to NFPA
70 in the MSHA referred to the 1968 edition,
seeing as elsewhere in the MSHA, it referred to
the 1968 edition?
A. We wouldn't have the information
necessary to make that determination and we are
not going to guess.
Q. In the next paragraph, you describe
NIST providing agency standards executives
Excel spreadsheets containing the referenced
records for their review.
Was that what you were earlier
describing in which NIST tried to point out
errors to certain agencies?
A. When I -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: -- mentioned earlier
that we would provide hard-copied portions of
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Page 201

1 the database, the Department of Transportation
2 portion, the Department of Interior and so on,
3 to each agency to review through their
4 standards management system, yes, that's what I
5 was referring to.
6
7

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

At the bottom of the page, you say:

8 "In addition to cross-references for
9 incorporation in the C.F.R., such as those
10 above, there are many federal specifications,
11 military specifications and other federal GSA
12 standard documents cited in the C.F.R. by
13 various agencies. Many of these have been
14 withdrawn, replaced or updated by the issuing
15 agency but not by the using agency. The
16 references will be retained in the database
17 until the using agency reviews and revises its
18 regulation in the C.F.R."
19

What's the distinction between an

20 issuing agency versus a using agency?
21

A.

So a military specification is a

22 Department of Defense document. The Department

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of Defense might withdraw a military
specification. If another agency such as the
Coast Guard or another component of an agency
outside of the Department of Defense had
referenced that military specifications, they
are the using agency.
Q. Is that the same -- kind of the same
thing as where a standards development
organization might withdraw their standard but
it might still be listed as incorporated by
reference into a particular regulation?
A. That's correct.
Q. You then say: "Finally, you note
that you identified five BSI standards
referenced in the C.F.R. while the SIBR
database only identified two. This is likely
due to the fact that NIST's periodic review has
not yet captured the additional three
references. We will take a closer look at this
specific case and update the database."
Was this the instance that you were
referring to about taking action on a

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particular recommendation that Mr. Malamud
made?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if the SIBR database
was, in fact, identified -- updated to reflect
additional BSI standards as a result of any
action in response to Mr. Malamud's e-mail?
A. I can commit that the -- that the
person responsible for reviewing the Code of
Federal Regulations, I asked him to take a -to take a specific look and update the database
if he identified additional references.
MR. BECKER: Thank you. Let's take
a short break.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
the record. This is the end of Media Unit No.
3. The time is 3:29.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back
on the record. This is the start of Media Unit
No. 4. The time is 3:41.
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(Deposition Exhibit 12 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I am handing you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 12.
Do you recognize this document?
This is the document produced as
ANSI 0303 to ANSI 0307.
A. Yes. I recognize this to be an
agenda of the ANSI board of directors meeting.
Q. Were you in attendance at this board
of directors meeting?
A. I was.
Q. As you -- it says on the third page
that you are listed as presenting the federal
engagement and standards activities
information/discussion; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. It says that you are going to
provide updates on recent activities of the
National Science and Technology Council
subcommittee on standards and OMB A119
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revision.
A. Yes.
Q. And above that, it says that there
is going to be updates, that standards
incorporated by reference into law are going to
be discussed and there will be updates on
incorporation by reference, Public.Resource.Org
and IBR portal; is that correct?
A. I see that, yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 13 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 13.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0308 to ANSI 0327.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's the presentation that is
referenced in the board agenda on copyright
infringement and incorporation by reference,

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Brazil, I think was a significant problem area,
and India.
Q. The next page says: "The unique
problem, standards incorporated by reference,
IBR, into law. Many countries are struggling
with what to do about standards that have been
incorporated by reference into law. Arguments
have been made that such standards should be
freely available. Counter-arguments have been
made that such standards are copyright
protected and that copyright should not yield
to free access;" is that correct?
A. That's what it says on the slide.
Q. Do you know who was making the
arguments that standards should be freely
available?
A. Referring to Bullet 2?
Q. Yes.
A. Not specifically. There are general
arguments on both -- on both sides of the
issue.
Q. The following three pages refer to

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recent developments.
1
Q. Were you present for this
2
presentation?
3
A. I'm sure I was.
4
Q. It says on Slide 2, so that would be
5
the second page: "Copyright infringement up 6
generally. The posting of unauthorized
7
copyrighting standards on the internet has
8
skyrocketed over the last year;" is that
9
correct?
10
A. That's what it says, yes.
11
Q. Were you aware of concerns at that
12
time about the posting on the internet about
13
unauthorized copies of standards?
14
A. Yes.
15
Q. What is Attributor Guardian?
16
A. I -- other than it appears to be a
17
service that searches the web for violations,
18
for posting of copyrighted documents. Most of 19
the issues that were being faced -- many of the 20
issues being faced by copyright owners were 21
with respect to foreign postings, in China,
22

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Page 208

countries either requiring free access to
standards that have been incorporated into law
or countries that -- as is phrased here, uphold
copyright in IBR standards; is that correct?
A.

Yes, that's correct.

Q.

It lists eight countries that have

acquired free access to standards that are
incorporated into law and it lists four
countries that have not; is that correct?
A.

Yes, that's correct.

Q.

It then goes on to list the --

U.S.A. requires reasonable access for IBR
standards, correct?
A.

Yes.

Q.

It says: "Some U.S.-based SDOs make

IBR standards available on a read-only basis
online and without fees, e.g., ASTM reading
room, API government cited and safety
documents, NFPA free access. Other SDOs do not
view reasonable access as requiring free online
access. "
What is the ASTM reading room?
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A. My understanding is that's ASTM's
electronic portal where they provide read-only
access to ASTM standards that have been
incorporated by reference into regulation.
Q. What is the API government cited and
safety documents?
A. I don't have specific knowledge, but
I assume it's a similar service, but I don't
know.
Q. Is API a standards development
organization?
A. It's the American Petroleum
Institute.
Q. What is NFPA free access?
A. National Fire Protection Association
free access. Again, that would be an NFPA
service.
Q. It says -- do you know what SDOs do
not view reasonable access as requiring free
online access?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: I don't have specific
knowledge about that. There are 240 accredited
standards developing organizations in the
United States and many more that are not
accredited by ANSI. It's a large number of
organizations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know of any specific
standards setting organizations -- excuse me,
standards development organizations that do not
provide free online access to standards that
have been incorporated by reference?
A. Well, I suppose I -- you could make
that determination by the process of
elimination. The three standards developing
organizations who are listed here with the
reading rooms and the SDOs who have made their
standards available via the IBR portal. I
don't have that number, but I can speak to the
positive. I don't have information about the
negative.
Q. The next page says: "U.S. dialogue

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on IBR, NARA petition."
What -- what does NARA stand for?
A. The National Archives and Records
Administration.
Q. It says: "On February 27, 2012, a
Federal Register Notice called for comment on a
petition filed by a group of academics to amend
the National Archives and Records
Administration, NARA's regulations governing
the approval of agency requests to incorporate
materials by reference into the Code of Federal
Regulations."
Are you familiar with that Federal
Register Notice?
A. Well, I was at the time. I don't
have any memory of it currently.
Q. Then it says: "ANSI developed a
consensus response on behalf of the
standardization community;" is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you participate in the consensus
response that ANSI developed?
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A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember what that consensus
response stated?
A. No, but it should be available in
NARA's record.
Q. On Slide 10, it refers to the
pipeline safety bill.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that to be the same
pipeline bill that we discussed earlier today?
A. I do.
Q. It says: "The U.S. Department of
Transportation Pipeline Hazardous Materials
Safety Administration, PHMSA, contacted SDOs to
request that their standards incorporated by
reference in PHMSA legislation be made
available online for free;" is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that event occurring?
A. I recall hearing about it.
Q. Do you know what the justification
was for asking SDOs to make their standards
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incorporated by reference in PHMSA legislation
available for -- online for free?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So my -- well, if you
read the Section 4 of the bill, prohibited the
reference -- prohibited DOT from referencing
any standard unless the documents were made
available free of charge on an internet
website, so my understanding is that DOT then
reached out to SDOs to determine whether that
was feasible. With a view to making the
argument to the Congressional committee that it
was -- that this was not necessarily feasible
in all cases.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "with a view to making
the argument to the Congressional committee
that it was not necessarily feasible in all
cases," what is your basis for that knowledge?
A. There was a technical correction
made to the -- not to bill itself but to the

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record related to the legislation, which
altered this requirement and made it -- made it
more flexible so DOT, Department of
Transportation, Congressional legislative
affairs folks worked with the committee on the
technical correction to the bill.
Q. How is it that you -- strike that.
Have you -- had you spoken with
anybody from DOT about their views on the
pipeline bill?
A. Not since the time period 2012, 2013
when that was in play.
Q. At that time in 2012 or 2013, had
you spoken with anybody from the Department of
Transportation about their view on the pipeline
bill?
A. I actually participated in an open
community meeting that the Department of
Transportation, Pipeline and Hazardous Material
Safety Administration convened to discuss the
incorporation by reference in the particular
context of the bill, so I participated in a

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

meeting that they held. It's on C-SPAN or
YouTube. It's available.
Q. So is it your view that the
Department of Transportation did not actually
want SDOs to make their standards incorporated
by reference in PHMSA legislation available
online for free?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't have an
opinion on that. The Department of
Transportation was working with the
Congressional committee to ensure that they
could comply with the committee's intent, while
at the same time, enable them to still continue
carrying out their regulatory responsibilities.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Moving on to Slide 12, that slide
discusses Public.Resource.Org; is that correct?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Slide 13 then refers to a lawsuit
between Public Resource and the Sheet Metal and
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Air Conditioning Contractor's National
Association, Inc.; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is a SDO, correct?
A. I believe so, yes, it's national
standards, yes.
Q. It's referred to as SMACNA?
A. Yes.
Q. SMACNA sent Public Resource a cease
and desist letter using Attributor Guardian in
response to posting SMACNA standards; is that
correct?
A. That's what the slide says, right.
Q. Were you -- at this time, were you
keeping updated on developments in the SMACNA
lawsuit?
A. No.
Q. Did you subsequently keep updated on
developments in the SMACNA lawsuit?
A. No.
Q. Slide 14 discusses the ANSI IBR
portal.
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A. Uh-huh.
Q. It says: "ANSI intends to provide a
portal for read-only access to a subset of
standards incorporated by U.S. federal agencies
in rulemaking. Goal is to make it easier for
interested parties to find IBR standards and to
access them via the internet at no cost."
How would this make it easier for
interested parties to find IBR standards and
access them via the internet with no cost?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So the IBR portal is a
portal which provides read-only access to a
number of -- to standards that are maintained
by a number of standards developing
organizations including ISO and IEC in one
place, so having all that information in one
place would make it easier for interested
parties to find the standards.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. At this time, the ANSI IBR portal

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was not yet in existence; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. It says: "One important motivation
for providing this access is to encourage the
U.S. Government's reference to private sector
standards and regulations in lieu of having the
government develop its own standards;" is that
correct?
MR. FEE: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Can you explain that motivation?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The National
Technology Transfer and Advancement Act directs
federal agencies to rely on private voluntary
consensus standards in lieu of developing their
own standards. That's simply a repetition of
the text of what -- the direction under the
law.
BY MR. BECKER:

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. How does the ANSI IBR portal factor
into that?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Well, as you mentioned
earlier and the bullet above, it provides it
easier, simpler access to a range of standards
that are incorporated by reference into
regulations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And why would simpler access have
any relation to the U.S. Government's reference
to private sector standards and regulations in
lieu of having the government develop its own
standards?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, I mentioned that
the Bullet 3 refers to the direction from
Congress to federal agencies. That statement
simply supports what the direction that the law
provides. ANSI's IBR portal is -- was intended
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to be and currently is a tool for assisting
federal agencies and providing reasonable
access, reasonable availability.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It says on the next page: "Phase 1
will include only IBR standards that have been
developed by ANSI-accredited SDOs as well as by
IEC and ISO;" is that correct?
A. That's what it says.
Q. Is that -- when the ANSI IBR portal
was first made publicly available, did it
include only standards developed by
ANSI-accredited SDOs as well as by IEC and ISO?
A. That's -- I believe that -- that's
what it says on the slide. I can't
independently confirm that but I see no reason
to say that's not the case.
Q. It says: "A number of SDOs have
already given permission for ANSI to either
include their standards or a link to their
site;" is that correct?
A. That's what it says.
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Q. Through your involvement with ANSI
at this time, were you aware of ANSI believing
that it needed to get permission in order to
include a SDO standard on its read-only site?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That copyright belongs
to the copyright owner which in all of these
cases is the standards development
organization, so yes, ANSI could not post
copyrighted information even for read-only
purposes without permission from the copyright
owner.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Through your experience with ANSI at
this time, were you aware of ANSI believing it
needed to get permission from an SDO in order
to link to the SDO's own read-only site?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I know what is listed
on the slide. I don't think general practice
is -- I think it is good practice to reach out

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to owning organizations with respect to either
posting the copyrighted information or linking
to their cites for a specific purpose.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And why is that good practice?
A. Just sounds like good corporate
practice to me.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Why would you link
without permission.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you think that people typically
ask for permission each time that they link to
somewhere on the internet?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Well, that's ANSI's
practice. I can't speak to any other
organization.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that ANSI's practice for any
outbound link to another website?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A. I don't know. You'd have to check
with our publications staff about that.
Q. Does ANSI make IBR standards
available to the print disabled?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. You
would have to look at the portal to see.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any availability to
the print disabled of IBR standards?
MR. FEE: Objection. Form.
THE WITNESS: I have no personal
knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Slide 16 discusses -- it says:
"Multiple dimensions of protection."
Do you know what that is referring
to, or what do you understand that to refer to?
A. I am assuming it is referring to the
bullets that are listed below the title.
Q. What does -- what is protection
referring to?
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A. Copyright protection is my
assumption.
Q. It says: "Read-only access users
can only open and read the licensed materials.
Print restriction, user cannot print the
licensed material. Text copy prevention,
contact cannot be copied. Screen shot
prevention, screen prints are disabled.
Machine limits, the licensed materials cannot
be copied to a different computer or network
file system. Watermarks, a watermark
containing text provided by the content
provider will be added to the protected license
to materials;" is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is this referring to aspects of the
ANSI read-only portal?
A. It's referring to the IBR -- the
ANSI IBR portal, yes.
Q. It then says on the next page:
"User will be presented with a form that must
be completed before the user is given access to
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the licensed materials. The form collects such
information as name, e-mail address, company or
organization name, and stores this information
in a secure database."
Do you know why users were required
to fill out this form before accessing the ANSI
IBR portal?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if ANSI still requires
users to fill out this form in order to access
the IBR portal?
A. I do not know that.
Q. Do you know -- what -- do you know
whether this information that is collected is
used by ANSI in any way?
A. No.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of
that.
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. Who would know whether this
information collected by ANSI is used in any
way?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: That's a part of our
business operations so somebody in the
standards facilitation staff would probably
know. I don't have that information and I
don't know who has that information.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. It then says: "User will be
required to sign an end user license agreement,
EULA, before being permitted to access a
licensed material."
Do you recall any debate within ANSI
as to whether an end user license agreement
should be required in order to use the ANSI IBR
portal?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know what the terms of the
end user license agreement are?
A. I have no idea.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. On Slide 19, it says: "The portal
will also include the following statement:
Caution, the standards available on this site
are the versions and year dates actually
referenced in the respective federal
legislation or law. The standard reference may
not be the most recent or up-to-date version
available. It is possible that the standard
and/or technology at issue has changed or been
updated during the period of time since the
regulation/law was enacted. ANSI does not
control which standards and versions hereto are
referenced in federal regulations or laws of
the U.S.A."
Do you know why that statement was
included on the ANSI IBR portal?
A. I don't have any personal knowledge
of why that statement was included.
Q. Do you have a guess as to why this
statement was included?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
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THE WITNESS: You want me to guess.
I think it's good practice to let individuals
who access a particular source of information
know if the reference is not the most recent or
up-to-date version.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is there a concern -- are you
concerned that there could be a negative
result, as a result due to somebody relying on
an out-of-date standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
earlier, agencies incorporate standards by
reference into regulations when it's relevant
and it helps them fulfill their mission. A
good practice is that agencies provide dated
references so it's the responsibility of the
agency to have a process in place to
periodically look to update references. But if
they don't update references, then those are
the references that are relevant for a
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particular regulation.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does ANSI do for its IBR portal
when the regulation incorporating a standard
doesn't list the particular edition of that
standard?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the
answer of that. I don't know the details of
the portal. I have actually never looked at
it.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You've never used the portal?
A. No, I've never used the portal.
(Deposition Exhibit 14 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 14.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0328 to 0336.
Do you recognize this document?

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A. I do.
Q. What is this document?
A. These appear to be the minutes of
the -- related to two agenda items on the -- at
the May 16, 2013 meeting of the ANSI board of
directors.
Q. This is the same meeting that we
have been discussing for the past several
minutes, correct?
A. That's correct.
(Deposition Exhibit 15 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 15.
This is the document marked as ANSI
2860.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's an e-mail from Scott Cooper at
ANSI to Patricia Griffin, Fran Schrotter and

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Liz Neiman regarding my participation in an
ANSI review group.
Q. Do you know what review group that
is?
A. Let's see. Given the date March 1,
2012, it is probably a response to the NARA
request for information, request for input.
Q. It says further on: "Mary Saunders,
she would be pleased to be part of an ANSI
review group. She didn't think NIST would
respond on their own but I think she was
pleased to have the ANSI venue to allow her to
weigh in."
Do you know what is being -- what do
you understand it to mean when Scott Cooper
says: "She didn't think NIST would respond on
their own?"
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That NIST would not
submit NIST comments to NARA on the -- on the
request.
Although, I would note, since you
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have given me now the minutes that NARA -there was a comprehensive -- let's see. U.S.
Government, ICE -- no, never mind. That's not
relevant.
Government agencies did not respond
to NARA's requests I don't think.
(Deposition Exhibit 16 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 16.
This is the document Bates-stamped
ANSI 3083.
Do you recognize this document?
A. I am an addressee on this -- or I'm
copied on this e-mail to -- it's hard to tell
who the addressees are, but I'm copied on the
e-mail.
Q. It says on February 27 -- excuse me,
actually let me back up a moment.
Do you recall receiving this e-mail?
A. No, I do not.
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Q. Do you have any reason to believe
that this e-mail produced by ANSI and listing
your name and e-mail address as under the BCC
line is not authentic?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you have any reason to think that
you didn't receive this e-mail?
A. No, I don't have any reason to think
I didn't get it.
Q. And the e-mail that's listed for you
is [e-mail]; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you always use your NIST e-mail
address when conversing with ANSI prior to
leaving NIST?
A. Yes.
Q. The e-mail says: "On February 27, a
Federal Register Notice called for comments on
a petition filed by a group of academics to
amend the National Archives and Records
Administration, NARA's regulations governing
the approval of agency requests to incorporate

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materials by reference, IBR, into the Code of
Federal Regulation. I am writing to you
because you volunteered to take part in a
review group that would participate in the
development of ANSI's response to this notice;"
is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Is this -- is the subject of this
Exhibit 16 the same as the subject of Exhibit
15?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Hold on. Which is
Exhibit 15?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That was the e-mail we just looked
at saying that -A. Got it.
Q. -- "you would be pleased to be part
of an ANSI review group."
A. Yes.
Q. Did you volunteer to take part in
this particular review group?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

A.

I must have.
(Deposition Exhibit 17 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 17.
This is produced by ANSI as Bates
No. 3084 to 3089.
Do you recognize this document?
A. It's the ANSI response, request for
comments on incorporation by reference which
was sent to the National Archives and Records
Administration.
Q. Is this the document that was
attached to the e-mail we just looked at,
Exhibit No. 15?
MR. FEE: Objection. Form.
THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know.
This is the final -- this is the final document
that was submitted.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you certain that this is the
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final document?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, I'm not certain.
It looks like the final document but I can't
tell you.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Looking back at Exhibit 16, the
e-mail, the attachment line says: "ANSI
response IBR_031512_review.docX"; is that
correct?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And in the third paragraph -- the
final sentence of the third paragraph says:
"As such, we respectfully request that you send
any comments you have on this document by noon
on Monday, March 19, staff will then compile
your comments into a new version that will go
to the IPRPC;" is that correct?
A. That's what it says.
Q. After reviewing that, does this
refresh -- excuse me.
Does this refresh your recollection
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that Exhibit 17 was a draft of the ANSI
response that was attached to Exhibit 16?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can't tell. There
is no date on that document.
(Deposition Exhibit 18 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 18 which ANSI produced as
Bates No. 3121 to 3122.
Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes.
Q. What is this document?
A. It's an e-mail from -- that I sent
to Liz Neiman at ANSI noting that I had
attached comments on the draft document all on
Page 6 of the draft.
Q. It lists an attachment on this
e-mail; is that correct?
A. Right.
(Deposition Exhibit 19 was marked

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for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 19.
This is the document produced as
ANSI 3123 to ANSI 3128.
Is this the draft that you had sent
as part of Exhibit No. 18?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, I can't tell.
There is no date or any other identification.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. If you turn to the -- actually, can
you compare the final page of Exhibit 19 with
the final page of Exhibit 17.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that in Exhibit 19, in
the -- let's see. The second line at the top
of the page, it says: "It is both an
independent federal agency and a federal
advisory committee."
A. Yes.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. Do you recall inserting that text
into the draft?
A. No, but I must have, it's a
statement of fact.
Q. Do you recall inserting the
statement on the next line down: "Which was
passed on a voice vote at the December 2011
ACUS Plenary?"
A. I do not recall, but again, that's a
statement of fact.
Q. And then under Bullet Point No. 9,
the final sentence of that paragraph says:
"This could have a chilling effect on agencies'
willingness to refer to voluntary standards in
support of regulatory actions."
Do you recall adding that text to
this draft?
A. No, but I take the point that I must
have added it.
Q. How would an extended review period
at various stages of rulemaking have a chilling
effect on agencies' willingness to refer to
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voluntary standards in support of regulatory
actions?"
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: My -- I don't have
memory -- my memory is not specific enough to
remember the context. I mean, at the time, I
obviously had read the NARA petition and
related documents but it's been seven years so
I don't remember.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know what was being referred
to there regarding an extended review period?
A. No, I don't remember it. It must
have been part of the petition.
(Deposition Exhibit 20 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 20.
This is a document produced as ANSI
3602 to ANSI 3604.
Do you recognize this document?
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A. I am a recipient of the e-mail, so
yes.
Q. What is this e-mail?
A. It's an e-mail from Liz Neiman of
ANSI to all ANSI members plus additional
addressees regarding the fact that the deadline
for comment has been extended to June 1 for the
ANSI -- deadline for comment on the NARA
incorporation by reference petition.
Q. Do you know why you were
specifically BCC'd on that?
A. It's not BCC. Those are all -- I'm
an addressee but in order to avoid every
addressee getting responses, they put you all
on BCC. I misspoke the first time.
No, I don't know why we are called
out separately.
Q. Do you know -- when it refers to all
ANSI members, is that all organizations that
are part of ANSI or is that a broader group?
A. I don't know what that e-mail alias
refers to specifically.

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Q. The following page lists questions
from the notice and the first one is: "Does
reasonably available mean that the material
should be available for free to anyone online,"
and then it says: "Create a digital divide by
excluding people without internet access."
Do you believe that if reasonable -reasonably available meant that a document
needed to be available for free online that it
would create a digital divide by excluding
people with no internet access?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So the question here
is, does reasonably available create a digital
divide by excluding people without internet
access.
Reasonable availability, as I
understand it under the circular and with
respect to NARA, includes as one option, if
available via internet. There are other
options I mentioned, reading room, hard copy,

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

depository libraries, so that people without
internet access could actually have access to
the documents.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. So in that case, do you think that
if reasonably available required online access
for free, that it wouldn't create a digital
divide by excluding people without internet
access?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't have an
opinion on that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of whether ANSI has an
opinion on whether requiring reasonably
available to include -- excuse me, let me
strike that.
Do you -- are you aware of whether
ANSI has an opinion on whether reasonably
available requiring free online access would
result in a digital divide?
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MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: If you want, I can
read you the relevant section from the ANSI
response. It does not speak directly to the
digital divide issue.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does it say?
A. It says: "ANSI believes the text of
standards and associated documents should be
available to all interested parties on a
reasonable basis, which may include
compensation where appropriate." That
statement is footnoted.
"Reasonably available should not be
strictly defined using terms such as for free
and to anyone online. Rather, the definition
should encompass a broad spectrum of access
options."
The ANSI response does not address
the question regarding digital divide, so I
don't -- I don't see that ANSI took a position
on that.
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Q. If a standard is not available for
free online and a person must instead either
purchase the standard or fly to a location
where the standard is -- a physical copy of the
standard is housed to review the standard, does
that create a financial divide?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Now you've asked me
about a financial divide. I don't have an
opinion on that.
(Deposition Exhibit 21 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 21.
This is the document produced by
ANSI as Bates No. 3792 to 3793.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize this document?
A. I do.
Q. What is this document?

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A. Well, it's an e-mail string. The
operative portion of which is Ms. Griffin
asking me for my thoughts on Department of
Transportation's proposed public workshop,
which is where I participated as a speaker and
my response to her request.
Q. Your response says: "Patty, my
understanding is that DOT feels like they are
likely to be sued either way. If they make
docs freely available, violating copyright, or
if they don't, pipeline safety community"
issue -- "issues. The issues the FR notice
outlines are all valid issues. My guess is
that DOT is looking for additional data to
support a request to the Hill for more time."
What was the basis for your guess
that DOT was looking for additional data to
support a request to the Hill for more time?
A. Well, as I mentioned earlier in our
discussion about the pipeline safety bill, the
Department of Transportation, Congressional
legislative affairs and the technical folks

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

felt that the requirements would have
significant -- of the bill as written
initially, would have significant adverse
effects on their ability to carry out their
regulatory responsibilities and they asked -so they were seeking public comment for
suggestions on how to address that problem or
that issue.
And I also mentioned to you that the
Department of Transportation worked with the
Congressional committee to implement, to work
with the technical, the Congressional committee
as the committee developed a technical
correction to the bill which resolved the issue
further outlined here.
(Deposition Exhibit 22 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 22.
This is a document Bates-stamped
ANSI 3844.
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This is an e-mail between Scott
Cooper and Elizabeth Neiman, CC'ing Patricia
Griffin and Fran Schrotter, and it says -well, in the first e-mail, Elizabeth Neiman is
asking Scott Cooper about Friday, what is
referred to as Friday's workshop on the
webcast, and then Scott Cooper responds: "I
thought it went quite well. Mary Saunders and
Emily Bremer were showcased and were able to
make good points on importance of copyright for
USG, and need to continue to refine reasonable
availability."
Do you know what workshop they are
referring to?
A. It's the workshop that I referred to
earlier and which is referred to in the earlier
e-mail as well. It was a public workshop. I
don't have the dates, but so DOT first is noted
in the earlier exchange should the Federal
Register Notice seeking public input on the
construction of the pipeline safety bill. They
asked for public input and they -- public
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comment, they also had a public meeting.
That's the workshop I was referring to.
It was held at the Department of
Transportation, and as I mentioned earlier, I
was one of the speakers.
Q. Who is Emily Bremer?
A. Emily Bremer at the time was a staff
person working for the administrative
conference of the U.S. She's an administrative
law lawyer.
Q. Do you know Emily Bremer?
A. I do know Emily.
Q. How long have you known Emily Bremer
for?
A. I met Emily during the ACUS
deliberations.
Q. Did Emily Bremer have a standpoint
that you understood -- excuse me.
Did you understand Emily Bremer to
have a standpoint with regard to what
reasonable availability meant?
MR. FEE: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: So as I mentioned
earlier, the webcast of the pipeline safety
workshop is still available online. You can
access it. You can listen to Emily's statement
and mine as well. I don't -- I don't remember
the specifics of Emily's position.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know if Emily Bremer
advocated against making standards available
for free?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't have that
information. No, I do not know.
(Deposition Exhibit 23 was marked
for identification.)
(Deposition Exhibit 24 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 23 which is ANSI 4530 to 31,
as well as Exhibit 24, ANSI 4472 -A. Right.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q.

-- to 4481.
Have you seen either of these
documents before?
A. Not that I -- no, not that I
remember. I am not an addressee on any of the
e-mails.
Q. So on June 29, 2012, Emily Bremer
writes -- excuse me.
Scott Cooper writes to Emily Bremer
and describes what looks like elements of
perhaps a panel or something like that. The
subject is: "ACUS ANSI IBR Conference."
Do you know what is being referred
to as the ACUS ANSI IBR conference?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Then Scott Cooper forwards the
e-mail and says -- to Joe Bhatia.
Who is Joe Bhatia?
A. Joe Bhatia is the president and CEO
of ANSI.
Q. And he says: "Dear Joe. There are
a number of fronts where the IBR issues are
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being played out. We have developed an
outreach plan to take the ANSI IBR message to
Congress and relevant agencies. Attached is
the updated outreach list. You and I have our
first meetings with the majority and minority
staff directors from the technology and
innovation subcommittee of health science on
July 27. Patty and I are meeting with lawyers
from ACUS and the Coast Guard to talk about IBR
copyright on July 23rd."
And then Exhibit 24 is a spreadsheet
that on the first page is titled: "House
Outreach Matrix," and then on the page
Bates-stamped ANSI 4478 is labeled:
"Administration Outreach Matrix."
Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. And do you see yourself listed there
on Row 140, Mary Saunders. It says:
"Relevance is missed."
A. Right. Apparently I am on their
outreach list.
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Q. And then on the following page, Row
140 continued, and under where it says: "Date
of meeting," it says: "11-30-11 conference
call with Mary Saunders, Henry Wixon, Gordon
Gillerman and Ajit Jillavenkatese."
A. Jillavenkatese.
Q. Pardon me.
Do you recall having that conference
call?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that
that conference call occurred?
A. I do not.
Q. Who is Henry Wixon?
A. Henry Wixon is the general counsel
for NIST.
Q. Who is Gordon Gillerman?
A. Gordon Gillerman and Ajit
Jillavenkatese at that time were both staff
members of the standards coordination office
working for me.
Q. Do you know why ANSI would have had

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an outreach call to you regarding IBR issues?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't know why they
would or would not.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is your understanding of the
purpose of this outreach matrix?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have never seen it
so I don't know. I can't speak to -- I mean,
this is a Scott Cooper document. I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is your understanding of why
ANSI would have wanted to reach out to you on
the IBR message?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: They might -- they
might have wanted to inform us about their Hill
meetings. I don't know.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are their Hill meetings?
A. The Hill meetings is what I am
talking about.
Q. The meetings with each of the
members of Congress and their staff?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your understanding of why
ANSI set up meetings with members of Congress
and their staff on this issue?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know anything
more than is in this e-mail. I didn't
participate in any of these meetings and I
don't remember.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Bullet Point No. 3 in -- on Exhibit
23 says: "We have agreement with ACUS to put
on a late fall ACUS ANSI IBR event that would
bring in Congressional staff and the SDO
community to discuss reasonable availability.
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There is a brief discussion on that proposed
event attached below."
Do you know what ACUS ANSI IBR event
is being referred to there?
A. No, I didn't -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Sorry. I do not.
(Deposition Exhibit 25 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 25.
This is a document ANSI produced
Bates-stamped ANSI 8056.
In the lower e-mail on this page
titled: "For review, IBR testimony for 1/14,"
in the second paragraph, the second says -- or
the first sentence says: "Next step is to send
to the select group that Scott/Joe e-mailed
yesterday evening. Patty also proposed that we
include Mary Saunders in this review group."
Do you know what review group they
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Page 257

1 were discussing?
2

A.

It appears to be a group to review

3 the testimony that Patty Griffin gave before a
4 Congressional committee on January 14.
5

Q.

In the e-mail above, Joe Bhatia

6 writes: "Somewhere, somehow, we should mention
7 that standards development in this country is
8 one of the earliest and most successful
9 examples of the public private partnership
10 which has benefitted our nation tremendously on
11 many fronts" - particularly, excuse me,
12 competitiveness -- I'm sorry.
13 "Competitiveness, public safety, successfully
14 commercializing American innovations globally,
15 and on and on. Congressmen particularly the
16 Republican ones should eat that up."
17

Why do you think that Joe Bhatia

18 would have suggested that Republican
19 Congressmen would be in favor of referring to a
20 public private partnership?
21

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection to form.

22

THE WITNESS: I have no insight into

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Joe's thinking on this matter.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you ever heard Joe Bhatia
suggest that -- the reference to public private
partnership should be made related to IBR
issues?
A. The public private partnership is
comprehensive. It's the public private
partnership in the development of voluntary
consensus standards.
Q. Do you recall any instances when Joe
Bhatia has suggested that referring to the
public private partnership would be especially
successful in influencing Republican
Congressmen?
A. He never made that statement to me.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What is your understanding of why
Joe Bhatia would have said this?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
wasn't in on that conversation.
(Deposition Exhibit 26 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 26.
This is the document produced as
ANSI 8802 to ANSI 8805.
In the e-mails below the first and
most recent one, does this reflect an e-mail
correspondence that you had with -- with other
individuals?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall having this e-mail
correspondence?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to think that
the e-mail correspondence is not accurate or
authentic?
A. I do not.
Q. In the earliest e-mail, if you turn
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to ANSI 8804, Patricia Griffin sends to you as
well as Mary McKiel an e-mail.
Who is Mary McKiel?
A. Mary McKiel at that time was the
standards executive for the Environmental
Protection Agency.
Q. Patricia Griffin says: "Hi Mary and
Mary. I hope you are doing well and
congratulations, Mary S on your new position."
What was that new position at the
time, do you recall?
A. Must be associate director for
management resources position.
Q. She goes on to say: "I wanted to
bring to your attention that Carl Malamud has
filed a declaratory judgment lawsuit Friday
against an ANSI accredited SDO who has sent
Public.Resource.Org a cease and desist letter
relating to IBR standard posted to Malamud's
site. I am going to be speaking to some
developers at U.S. and non-U.S. later in the
morning about steps others may be taking to
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address Malamud's activities."
Did you learn of steps that were
considered for addressing what is referred to
as Malamud's activities here?
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't privy to
those conversations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Griffin goes on to say: "One
question I will be asking is the status of the
U.S. Government efforts to address the
reasonable availability question is the
OMB/NARA initiative. Last I recall, OMB had
crafted a draft which it circulated to other
federal agencies for input. My understanding
was that a draft (either the original one or an
updated one) reflecting other agency comments
would then be available for public review at
some point. Do you know of any developments
that you could share with me (and me with other
SDOs currently looking into this issue)?"
Do you know what she is requesting

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-- what do you understand her to be requesting 1
there?
2
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
3
THE WITNESS: She is asking if -- if
4
and when a draft of the revision to the OMB
5
circular -- she is asking me when and if a
6
draft of the revised circular would be
7
available for public comment which it was not 8
at that time.
9
BY MR. BECKER:
10
Q. How is it that you would know
11
whether -- at that time whether a revision to
12
the OMB circular was available for public
13
comment at that time?
14
A. If it was available for public
15
comment, it would have been posted in the
16
Federal Register so I would know about it.
17
Q. What is your understanding of why
18
Ms. Griffin would have asked you instead of
19
checking the Federal Register herself?
20
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
21
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You then respond -- sorry.
Mary McKiel responds and then you
respond on top of that, saying: "Patty and
Mary, the latest version of the draft circular
that I have seen still has the neutral language
that Mary McKiel references below. I don't
think there is much/any interest at OMB in
leaning forward on this issue, that is, in
changing current practice dramatically."
What did you mean when you were
referring to "leaning forward?"
A. Changing current practice
dramatically.
Q. What do you mean by "changing
current practice dramatically?"
A. The question was with respect to
incorporation by reference or reasonable
availability, so that's what I meant. Changing
current practice with respect to -- in 2013,
and with respect to reasonable availability.
Page 264

Q. What was the basis for your belief
that there wasn't much or any interest at OMB
in terms of changing current practice
dramatically?
A. So I think this falls under the
exclusion that you talked with Henry and
Russell Craig about. These are internal
government deliberations, specifically with
respect to the circular. I can look at the
letter if you want.
Q. And you shared your -- this
information with Ms. Griffin?
A. No. You asked me how I would know
and that is -- those are nonpublic aspects. I
did not share any nonpublic information, but
you asked me how I would know about it through
discussions with OMB. I made a high-level
statement.
MR. GRIFFIN: I have to instruct her
not to answer the questions given the agreement
that you have with DOC that we put on the
record at the beginning until we get
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clarification if you need.
MR. BECKER: I understand that, but
I would like to know why it would be
permissible to discuss this with Ms. Griffin at
that time.
MR. GRIFFIN: She just said that she
didn't.
THE WITNESS: I didn't.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. But you said that you believed that
there wasn't much or any interest at OMB in
changing current practice dramatically?
A. It was a general statement.
Q. So it's permissible to share a
general statement about internal political
deliberations, but it's not okay to share more
specific information?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: You asked me how I
knew, which leads -- which would have led me to
discuss internal government deliberations. The

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information I shared was not privileged.
1
BY MR. BECKER:
2
Q. What would be the distinction
3
between privileged and nonprivileged
4
information in this context?
5
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
6
MR. FEE: Objection.
7
MR. GRIFFIN: Again, I'm going to
8
instruct her not to answer given the agreement 9
you have with DOC.
10
MR. BECKER: I am not looking for
11
the specifics, but I would like to know -12
MR. GRIFFIN: You are sort of coming 13
close to that though.
14
MR. BECKER: I want to know what the 15
basis is for the distinction that she's making. 16
MR. GRIFFIN: Right. And you're
17
going to have to talk to DOC about that as you 18
agreed to do in your letter.
19
MR. BECKER: I don't think I need to
20
speak with DOC to know what the basis is for 21
her saying that one piece of information is
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

privileged and another piece of information is
not privileged.
MR. GRIFFIN: I'm telling you that I
think you are crossing the line on what she is
permitted pursuant to the agreement to testify
to, and I'm going to err on the side of caution
and you can discuss it with Russell Craig as
you agreed to do.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, was it publicly known
at that time that OMB did not have much or any
interest in changing current practice
dramatically?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: It might have been. I
don't have any reason to -- I don't know.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I'm sorry, you don't have any reason
to what?
A. I don't have any -- I can't answer
that question, was it publicly known. It's
likely. OMB -- the OMB staff have
Page 268

conversations with quite a few people, private
sector and government.
Q. Do you not know one way or the
other?
A. I do not know one way or the other.
(Deposition Exhibit 27 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 27.
This is a document produced by ANSI
as 9053 to 9056.
On the first page at the bottom,
there is an e-mail from Scott Cooper to Fran
Schrotter and Patricia Griffin and it says: "I
sent a message to Mary Saunders to see if she
wanted NPC to offer its good offices for the
corner bakery SDO activities."
What -- do you know what -- what do
you understand NPC to mean there?
A. National -- I don't know. My first
thought would have been national policy
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committee, but that doesn't make any sense.
Q. Why doesn't that make sense?
A. It makes no sense to have the ANSI
national policy committee offer its good
offices for some bakery meeting. I don't
understand what this e-mail is meaning.
Q. Have you ever heard of the corner
bakery meetings?
A. They are -- yes, they are meetings
of Washington representatives of standards
developing organizations who get together
monthly just to share information.
Q. Do you know what the subjects of the
meetings are?
A. Well, I do now since I am an ANSI
staff, but I didn't then. I was not aware at
that point of the corner bakery meeting.
Q. Have you ever provided an office for
a corner bakery meeting?
A. No.
Q. Do you know which standards
development organizations are involved in the

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corner bakery meetings?
A. The -- as I mentioned, it's the
Washington reps SDOs. Some SDOs have
Washington offices, others do not. There are,
I believe about 28 individuals on the e-mail
list.
Q. What is your understanding of why
SDOs maintain Washington offices?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't have a
specific -- the same reason any nonprofit
organization or company would maintain a
Washington office. I don't have anything more
specific than that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What does that mean?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can't speak to the
construct of individual SDO's Washington
offices. I just know that some of them have

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

offices with staff in Washington.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is it to be able to meet with
policymakers?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I can't -- I can't
answer that.
(Deposition Exhibit 28 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 28.
And this is a document produced by
ANSI as ANSI 9121 to ANSI 9124.
The earliest e-mail in this chain is
an e-mail from Ms. Griffin and it says: "In
light of the discussions last week at the NPC
IPRPC and board meetings, I revamped the
proposed e-mail to the copyright group and
given the urgency of these issues, proposed
sending an e-mail along these lines out today."
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And then in the draft of the
copyright task group e-mail on the following
page, it says at the bottom of the second
paragraph: "Recall that in response to the
NARA Federal Register Notice, ANSI said that
'reasonable available' should not be strictly
defined using terms such as for free and to
anyone online. Rather, the definition should
encompass a broad spectrum of access options.
For example, some SDOs make certain standards
available online on a read-only basis and many
SDOs make standards available at discounts or
without charge to consumers, policymakers and
small businesses."
Do you believe that making a
standard that is incorporated by reference
available at a discount constitutes reasonably
available?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: As I mentioned
earlier, there are many different mechanisms
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Page 275

1 for achieving reasonable availability. That

1 anything, ASME did to make standards reasonably

2 may be one of them.

2 available?

3

3

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

4

THE WITNESS: I do not. I have no

4

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Why would SDOs -- what is your

5 understanding of why SDOs would make standards

5 knowledge of that.

6 that are incorporated by reference available at

6

7 a discount to policymakers?

7

8

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

8 Ms. Neiman meant by "the good work that we

9

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

9 could include from other organizations like

10

THE WITNESS: The reference -- the

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

What is your understanding of what

10 ASTM, NFPA and others?"

11 specific sentence speaks to NIST makes

11

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

12 standards at large generally available at

12

MR. FEE: Objection.

13 discounts or without charge to consumers, to

13

THE WITNESS: I don't know. I

14 policymakers and small businesses. It speaks

14 wasn't the addressee on this e-mail.

15 to standards generally.

15

16

16

17

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Further down, on the two paragraphs

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Is that referring to the fact that

17 ASTM and NFPA had their own read-only websites?

18 down, Ms. Griffin writes: "In light of the

18

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

19 forgoing, I would be grateful if you would send

19

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

20 by me Friday, June 1, specific examples of what

20

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

21 you are doing if anything to make incorporated

21

BY MR. BECKER:

22 by reference standards reasonably available."

22

Q.

Does it seem to you that that's

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Are you aware of any compilation by
ANSI of means that SDOs had taken to make
standards reasonably available?
A. No, I am not.
Q. In the e-mail that follows,
Elizabeth Neiman responds and says: "Hi,
Patty. Thanks very much for this. Just a few
typos below plus some other recommendations are
highlighted. More philosophically, I am not
sure though including the examples of access in
our own FR response. Beyond the deadline
issue, I think that it is enough for ANSI to
say that there are different ways to get it
done, as we have in the excerpt you included
below. If we get too specific, it may look
prescriptive, like, only the few examples given
are ANSI-endorsed. I am thinking here of ASME,
in particular, who are unlikely to give us an
example and may feel slighted by all the good
work that we could include from other
organizations, like ASTM, NFPA and others."
Do you know at that time what, if

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Page 276

1 likely what she was referring to?
2

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

3

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

4

THE WITNESS: It's possible.

5

BY MR. BECKER:

6

Q.

I just want to step back a moment to

7 Exhibit No. 26.
8

Do you have that in front of you?

9

A.

I do.

10

Q.

On the second page, there was an

11 e-mail from you that was responding to the
12 earlier e-mail from Ms. Griffin that referred
13 to the Carl Malamud SMACNA declaratory judgment
14 lawsuit, and at the bottom of your e-mail, you
15 say: "It would be very interesting to track
16 the California case that Public Resource
17 filed."
18

Do you see that?

19

A.

I do.

20

Q.

What -- why did you think that it

21 would be interesting to track the SMACNA
22 lawsuit?
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A. I don't remember. Let me look at
the e-mail to see if I can -- I don't know.
Q. Did you track the SMACNA lawsuit?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you track the lawsuit that ASTM,
NFPA and ASHRAE have filed against Public
Resource?
A. I did not.
Q. Have you read any of the documents
that have been filed in the lawsuit filed by
ASTM, et al., against Public Resource?
A. I have. I read the ANSI amicus
filing and I read the recent circuit court
decision, the appeal, May 11 of last year or
something like that. That's it.
Q. No other documents?
A. No.
Q. When did you read those documents?
A. Pretty close to the time that they
were published.
Q. Why did you read those documents
around the time that they were published?

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A. Why not? I mean, I was on -- I was
a member of the ANSI board so I think we were
all -- ANSI membership was -- was circulated a
copy of the ANSI amicus brief, so I just read
it for general -- general interest.
Q. How about the -- why did you read
the appeal decision?
A. Because as an ANSI staff member, it
was circulated to me when it was issued.
Q. Were there other filings in this
litigation that have been circulated to you?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No, not to my
knowledge.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did you have any involvement in the
organization or drafting of the ANSI amicus
brief?
A. I don't remember having involvement
in the amicus brief.
(Deposition Exhibit 29 was marked
for identification.)

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 29.
This document was produced by ASTM,
Bates-stamped ASTM 015659 to -MR. FEE: Matt, you can't show her
this document unless it says on the face of the
document that she's received it as a
confidential under the protective order.
MR. BECKER: My apologies.
MR. FEE: We will just take it away
from you.
MR. GRIFFIN: I suppose I can't see
it either.
It's 5:15 now. Do you know how long
you're going to go and if it's longer, maybe we
could take a break.
MR. BECKER: It is longer, but we
can take a break. Sure. That's fine.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
the record. This is the end of Media Unit No.
4. The time is 5:18.
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(A short recess was taken.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back
on the record. This is the start of Media Unit
No. 5. The time is 5:37.
(Deposition Exhibit 30 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Ms. Saunders, I have handed you what
has been marked as Exhibit No. 30.
What is this?
A. It's my LinkedIn page.
Q. Does this accurately reflect the
contents of your LinkedIn profile?
A. Yes.
Q. Is the information on your profile
accurate?
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
MR. GRIFFIN: I think we are on 29.
MR. BECKER: Excuse me. We struck
29 so this should actually be 30. So we will
leave it as 30 and we are striking 29 for the
record.
Pages 277 - 280

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2

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Under ANSI vice president for

3 government relations and public policy, can you
4 please read to yourself what it says there.
5

A.

6

Mary leads ANSI -MR. GRIFFIN: No, read it to

7 yourself.
8

BY MR. BECKER:

9

Q.

You can read it to yourself.

10

A.

Oh, read it to myself. Okay. Fine.

11 Okay.
12

Q.

Where you write: "Mary leads ANSI"

13 -- excuse me, actually let me just ask, have
14 you -- did you write this description?
15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Where you write: "Mary leads ANSI'S

17 efforts to advocate greater use of voluntary
18 consensus standards and conformance programs by
19 government agencies," what do you mean by
20 "use?"
21

A.

I mean the same meaning that is in

22 the National Technology Transfer and

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Advancement Act and in OMB Circular A-119, use
in support of agency mission activities,
regulation, procurement and policy activities.
Q. Can you break that down a little bit
more for me, like, what you personally mean
here when you say "greater use of voluntary
consensus standards?"
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. What are the examples of use?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Agencies may use
standards as we discussed by incorporating by
reference in regulation. They may -- agencies
may use standards internally with respect to
their internal operations. Agent -procurement agencies may use standards as part
of procurement actions. Agencies may use
standards in relationship to their policy
activities. There is a variety of different
ways of using standards.
BY MR. BECKER:

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. Do agencies enforce standards as one
of their uses?
A. Agencies enforce regulations.
Q. Do agencies enforce regulations that
incorporate standards by reference?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Agencies enforce
regulations which may incorporate standards by
reference.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Are you aware of any instances of an
agency enforcing the terms of a standard as
incorporated by reference into a regulation?
A. I'm not specifically aware of agency
enforcement activities. That is outside of my
agreement.
Q. Are you aware that U.S. federal
agencies do enforce the terms of standards as
incorporated by reference into regulations?
A. Agencies enforce regulations, some
of which incorporate standards by reference, so
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they enforce the regulation. That's what I'm
aware of. I don't have any specific examples
of enforcement actions by agencies.
Q. And if those regulations contain
standards incorporated by reference, do those
agencies then also enforce the terms of the
standards as incorporated?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't have direct
knowledge of how agencies enforce their
regulations so I can't speak to that.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You also write: "She also works
with ANSI members to create
standardization-related outreach programs to
legislators and to increase understanding of
the private sector standards community among
agencies involved in trading commerce issues."
A. Yes.
Q. What is the outreach that you are
describing there?
Pages 281 - 284

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A. So the most common form of outreach
are posting panel events on the Hill in -- at
the Longworth Building and Rayburn Building,
for example. These are open events where we -ANSI hosts and features member organizations
talking about their standards activities and
how, in the case of the most recent event,
standards contribute to technology and
innovation supporting the nation's
infrastructure.
Those are informational events,
Congressional staff and others are invited to
attend those events. It's simply an
information-sharing activity.
Q. Does outreach legislature -- excuse
me.
Does outreach to legislators include
the suggestion of actions that they can take?
A. Not by me. ANSI is a 501(c)(3)
organization. We don't lobby. We educate, so
I don't make any recommendations about actions
that legislators might take.

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Q. Do you consider making a
recommendation as to what a legislator -- or
what action a legislator might take to be
lobbying?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I have a very narrow
definition of what is permitted under
educational activities and I adhere to that
definition.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Does ANSI have its own definition as
to what is permitted under educational
activities?
A. Not that is written down that I know
of.
Q. What is your definition of what is
permitted under educational activities?
A. In my personal role as the vice
president of government relations and public
policy, I provide fact-based information to
legislators. I mentioned the Hill event, just

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

a statement of actions that are activities that
are taking place, but I don't cross the line
into making a specific recommendation for -with respect to a piece of legislation.
Q. Does your outreach include the
suggestion that legislature -- legislation or
regulation favor the use of voluntary consensus
standards?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So as I have
mentioned, the law passed by Congress in early
-- and signed by presidential law in early
1996, directs federal agencies to rely on, to
use technical standards developed by voluntary
consensus standards organizations in conducting
their mission-related activities, so I hue to
that direction from Congress notifying
Congressional staff about the existence of the
law and the existence of OMB policy. It's a
fact-based activity.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you provide fact-based
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information about regulations that are suitable
for incorporation by reference?
A. No.
Q. Do you provide fact-based
information about standards that are suitable
for incorporation by reference?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
(Deposition Exhibit 31 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I am handing you what has been
marked as Exhibit 31.
This is the document produced as
ASTM 016254 to 016265.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft meeting report of the
ANSI national policy committee meeting on -- of
October 27, 2011.
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. Yes. I was the chair of the
meeting.
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Q. Does this draft meeting report
appear to accurately reflect the proceedings of
that meeting?
A. I'm guessing that it does. I
haven't looked at it but I'm sure it does.
(Deposition Exhibit 32 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 32.
This document was produced as ANSI
1179 to ANSI 1187.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft meeting report of the
ANSI national policy committee meeting of May
21, 2012.
Q. Does it accurately reflect the
proceedings?
A. I assume so.
(Deposition Exhibit 33 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. I have handed you what has been
1
marked as Exhibit 33.
2
This is the document produced as
3
ANSI 0263.
4
What is this document?
5
A. This is a draft proposed agenda for
6
the ANSI board of directors meeting of May 24, 7
2012.
8
Q. Does it accurately reflect the
9
proceedings?
10
A. It accurately reflects the proposed
11
agenda for that meeting, at least the portion
12
that is reproduced.
13
(Deposition Exhibit 34 was marked
14
for identification.)
15
BY MR. BECKER:
16
Q. I have handed you what's been marked 17
as Exhibit 34.
18
This document was produced as ANSI 19
0268.
20
What is this document?
21
A. It's a PowerPoint presentation
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

entitled: "Standards incorporated by reference
into law, presented by Scott Cooper, vice
president government relations, and Patricia
Griffin, vice president and general counsel at
the ANSI board meeting of May 24, 2012."
Q. Is that a PowerPoint presentation
that was presented at that same meeting?
A. I assume so.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. Yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 35 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what's been marked
as Exhibit 35.
This is a document produced as ANSI
02677.
What is that document?
A. It is a draft minutes of the ANSI
board of directors meeting of May 24, 2012,
Page 292

specific excerpts, Agenda Items 2.2 through
2.4.
Q. Does that document accurately
reflect the proceedings?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Without reading it, I
will stipulate that it does.
(Deposition Exhibit 36 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 36.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0680.
What is this document?
A. It's entitled: "Proposed agenda
executive committee of ANSI board of
directors," of a meeting date is March 21,
2013, and it's an excerpt covering two agenda
items.
Q. Does this accurately reflect the
proposed agenda for that meeting?
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A. It appears to.
Q. Were you present for that meeting?
A. I was.
Q. Who prepares the agendas for these
meetings?
A. ANSI staff prepare the agendas for
these meetings.
(Deposition Exhibit 37 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. When you say, "staff," what staff
are you referring to?
A. The senior management team. The
lead is typically taken by ANSI's general
counsel and Patricia Griffin with input from
ANSI senior staff with respect to agenda items
that would be relevant for discussion at either
the executive committee or the board.
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 37.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0685.

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the 14th of May, 2013.
Q. Were you present at that meeting?
A. I believe I was.
Q. Does this draft meeting report
accurately reflect the proceedings?
A. I will agree that it does. There
are two agenda items that are listed.
(Deposition Exhibit 39 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 39.
That's the document produced as ANSI
0715.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft agenda for the
executive committee of the ANSI board of
directors meeting, November 6, 2013.
Q. Were you present for that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Does this document accurately
reflect the proceedings?

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What is this document?
A. It's a draft minutes of the
executive committee of the ANSI board of
directors meeting of March 21, 2013.
Q. That's the same meeting that the
previous document was referring to, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that -- does this exhibit
accurately reflect the proceedings?
A. I will stipulate that it does
without reading it.
(Deposition Exhibit 38 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 38, which has been produced
as ANSI 1527.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft meeting report of the
-- an ANSI policy committee meeting, a joint
meeting of the conformity assessment policy
committee and the national policy committee on

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A.

Yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 40 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 40.
This is the document produced as
ANSI 0729.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft minutes of the
executive committee of the ANSI board of
directors meeting, November 6, 2013.
Q. Is that the same meeting that -- as
the previous exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. And does this document accurately
reflect the proceedings?
A. Yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 41 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
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marked as Exhibit 41.
1
This is a document produced as ANSI
2
0033.
3
What is this document?
4
A. It's a copy of a PowerPoint
5
presentation entitled: "Discussion on changes 6
to the Office of Management and Budget, OMB 7
Circular A-119 presented by Patricia Griffin
8
March 6, 2014."
9
Q. Were you present for that
10
presentation on March 6, 2014?
11
A. Let's see. It's a webinar. I see.
12
I was -- I did participate in the webinar.
13
Yes.
14
Q. Does -- is this document, Exhibit
15
41, accurate and authentic?
16
A. I believe so.
17
(Deposition Exhibit 42 was marked
18
for identification.)
19
BY MR. BECKER:
20
Q. I have handed you what has been
21
marked as Exhibit 42.
22
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This is a document produced as ANSI
0771.
What is this document?
A. It's a draft agenda of the executive
committee of the ANSI board of directors
meeting, July 24, 2014.
Q. Were you present for that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Does this exhibit accurately reflect
the agenda for that meeting?
A. Agenda Item 2.1. It's the only one
reproduced.
(Deposition Exhibit 43 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked Exhibit 43.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0776.
What is this document?
A. It's a copy of a PowerPoint
presentation entitled: "Federal engagement and

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

standards activities presented at the ANSI
executive committee meeting by Scott Cooper,
July 24, 2014."
Q. Does this document correspond to the
same meeting that you said that you were
present for in the previous exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this Exhibit 43 accurate and
authentic?
A. It appears to be. It's not my
presentation.
Q. Did you witness that presentation?
A. I must have since I was at the
meeting.
(Deposition Exhibit 44 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit 44.
This document was produced as ANSI
0783.
What is this document?
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A. Draft minutes of the executive
committee meeting of the ANSI board of
directors on July 24, 2014.
Q. Were you present for that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that document accurately
reflect the proceedings?
A. Yes.
(Deposition Exhibit 45 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. I have handed you what has been
marked as Exhibit No. 45.
This is a document produced as ANSI
0791.
What is this document?
A. Draft minutes of the executive
committee meeting of the ANSI board of
directors, November 19, 2014.
Q. Were you present for that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Does this document accurately
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reflect the proceedings?
A. With respect to Agenda Item 1.2,
approval of the agenda, yes.
Q. Is there anything inaccurate in that
document?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Have you discussed the certiorari
petition by the State of Georgia to the Supreme
Court regarding Georgia's litigation with
Public Resource?
A. Have I discussed it?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Have you discussed that case?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I haven't discussed
the case.
(Deposition Exhibit 46 was marked
for identification.)
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. I have handed you what's been
produced by your attorney in response to the
requests for production that were delivered to
you along with the subpoena that you are
responding to today.
Do you recognize these documents?
A. Yes.
Q. These are the documents produced as
SAU 1 to 162, and it -- along with the cover
letter from your -- from the law firm of your
attorney; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So did you -- were you the one who
gathered the documents that are produced as
Exhibit 46?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there -- let's see.
How did you go about gathering the
documents to produce for Exhibit 46?
A. I searched my e-mail files and my
hard copy files for relevant -- and my notes
for relevant information.

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Q. Could you please turn to SAU 004.
A. Yes.
Q. This is an e-mail between you and
someone at the FAA; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is this e-mail you produced
accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. The individual at the FAA -- is that
the Federal Aviation Administration?
A. That's correct.
Q. He says in his e-mail towards the
end of his e-mail: "The portal description
says that these documents are accessible if
they are referenced in the C.F.R.s. In most
cases, the references are in official advisory
circulars, guidance documents to the rules in
the C.F.R.s or in policy documents used in
conjunction with the C.F.R.s. Do these
references count?"
And your response in the second
paragraph says that: "Standards referenced in
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advisory circulars and/or policy documents are
not accessible via the IBR portal."
Why is it that those documents are
not accessible via the IBR portal?
A. The IBR portal specifically focuses
on standards incorporated as referenced in the
Code of Federal Regulations.
Q. Are these -- let's see.
Could you please turn to SAU 090.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this your handwriting?
A. It is.
Q. And in this and the following pages
through SAU 100, what is this that you are
writing about?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So I attended a
meeting on April 18, 2018, of the pipeline -pipeline standards developing organization
coordinating committee.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And what was discussed at that
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meeting?
A. So the meeting included the
organizations listed in my notes as well as
representatives of the Department of
Transportation's public -- Pipeline and
Hazardous Materials Safety Administration. It
is a standing committee that the DOT has
created.
Information was exchanged on what
standards are currently under development by
these organizations.
You want me to read my notes?
Q. Sure.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection. You want
her to read the entire document?
MR. BECKER: Well, I just want to
know what the substance of the discussion was.
MR. GRIFFIN: I think he means to
review it and see if you can summarize them.
THE WITNESS: As I remember, it was
a general information session, the various
organizations updated the DOT folks on their

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1
current standards activities. I spoke about
the IBR portal and ANSI accreditation of SDOs 2
3
generally.
4
BY MR. BECKER:
5
Q. Could you please turn to -- towards
6
the end of this compilation of papers.
7
Could you please turn to SAU 157,
8
very close to the end.
9
A. Ah, yes.
10
Q. This is a document titled:
11
"Lobbying assignments for SDO education
12
outreach."
13
What is this document referring to?
14
A. Oxymoron. These are -- it's
15
referring to members of the House
16
administration committee and you can see
members of the House oversight and reform 17
18
committee and House judiciary. It's a very
19
long list, and individual staff representatives
of government relations representatives, in my 20
21
case of ANSI, and in other cases of specific
22
SDOs, agreed to -- it's an inaccurate title,

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

agreed to contact staff of these Congress
people to set up informational meetings.
Contacts were only made actually
with the House administration committee
members. No other contacts were made.
Q. Who prepared this document?
A. Alec French who is an outside
consultant to the National Fire Protection
Association.
Q. Alec French is at Thorsen French
Advocacy; is that correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. If you turn to SAU 155.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an e-mail from Alec French
that is attaching the lobbying assignment
documents that we just discussed -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. -- as well as a draft of the
copyright protection for codes and standards
Page 308

document as well as -- excuse me. No, just
those two documents?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: As I said, the title
of the attachment is inaccurate. I did not
engage in any -- we did not -- the group did
not engage in any lobbying activities that I
participated in.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is Thorsen French Advocacy a
lobbying organization?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do you know whether anyone
instructed Mr. French about lobbying
restrictions on 501(c)(3) organizations?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Turning to SAU 161.
A. Yes.
Q. Is this an e-mail to you -- excuse
me, an e-mail from you to Alice Yates and
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others?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No. On 161?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Excuse me, you are right. This is
from -A. It's an e-mail from Alice Yates to
me.
Q. Yes, to you. And does this e-mail
contain the attachment that -- the following
page SAU 162?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that document?
A. It's a one-pager providing
fact-based information on the importance of
copyright protection for codes and standards.
Q. Did anyone object to the
distribution of this document or contacting
individuals in government as potentially being
lobbying?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I'm not clear where

Page 311

1

2 we take just a two or three-minute break.
3

MR. BECKER: Sure.

4

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off

5 the record. This is the end of Media Unit No.
6 5. The time is 6:20.
7

(A short recess was taken.)

8

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back

9 on the record. This is the start of Media Unit
10 No. 6. The time is 6:28.
11 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR ASTM INTERNATIONAL
12

you're going with this. Did anyone object?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did anybody object to this document
as being impermissible lobbying?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: This is not a lobbying
document. I shared this with ANSI, ANSI's
general counsel as well as the other senior
staff. It's a fact-based statement of -- it's
a fact-based statement, it's not a lobbying
document.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did anybody object to the document
titled: "Lobbying assignments," on the basis
that you used the word "lobbying?"
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't think anybody
was paying that much attention to the title of
the attachment. As I said, it's not -- the
purpose was not lobbying.
MR. BECKER: With that, feel free to
ask your questions. I have concluded.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

BY MR. FEE:

13

Q.

I just have a few questions for you.

14

A.

No problem.

15

Q.

I want to ask you primarily

16 questions about your time at NIST and the
17 positions that you took on behalf of NIST
18 during your employment there. Okay?
19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

So during the time that you were at

21 NIST, did NIST have a position as to whether or
22 not the standards development organization's

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MR. FEE: I think it will be best if

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development of standards was a benefit to
society?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes. NIST doesn't
institute, felt that the activities of the
standards development organizations are a
benefit -- do benefit society.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Can you identify some of the
benefits that NIST believed were -- arose out
of the standards development organization's
developments?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: So a primary
contribution of the standards developing
organizations is to convene a wide range of
stakeholders in a particular technical activity
and to manage the process by which those
volunteers collaborate on the development of
voluntary standards. In many cases, those
standards are relevant and help protect public
health, safety, security and the environment.
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BY MR. FEE:
Q. Why did NIST believe it was
important to have a wide range of interests
participating in the development process as
opposed to just having industry regulators?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: So as the national
measurement institute for the United States and
also with NIST's broader responsibilities given
to the institute by Congress under the National
Technology Transfer and Advancement Act, the
institute felt strongly that bringing in the
largest -- a large range of interested and
affected stakeholders was a best practice way
to produce robust documents that would meet the
broadest range of needs. In fact, NIST
followed -- follows still that practice in its
own activities.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. During your time at NIST, did you
become aware of the fact that it cost money to
develop these standards?

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A. Yes, I was aware of the fact that it
is a costly endeavor to support the
infrastructure that enables the development of
voluntary consensus standards.
Q. Do you have an understanding based
on your time at NIST, as to how standards
development organizations fund their
development activities?
A. Generally speaking, yes.
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: I am not familiar with
the business model -- specific business model
for individual standards developers.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Were you aware of the fact that many
SDOs relied on copyright protection as part of
their method for funding their development
activities?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm aware of that
fact.
BY MR. FEE:

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Q. Did NIST have a position during the
time that you were there as to whether or not
it was appropriate for standards development
organizations to fund their operations at least
in part through the sale and licensing of
copyrighted documents?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember NIST
taking a position one way or the other on that.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Does ANSI have a position with
respect to that?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: ANSI strongly supports
the current private sector model of standards
development in the United States.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Does that include support for the
ability to fund standards development through
the use of copyrights on the standard at issue?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that's an ANSI
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position.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. During the time that you were at
NIST, did the federal government have the
ability to write all the standards that were
adopted or incorporated by reference if there
were not standards development organizations
running those standards?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: So in my personal
opinion, no, and -- in my personal opinion, no,
federal agencies did not and do not have the
capacity, the technical capacity or the
administrative capacity to develop all the
standards that they would need to carry out
their mission responsibilities.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. And is that belief based upon the
work that you did at NIST?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Pursuant to the
direction from Congress to federal agencies
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under the National Technology Transfer and
Advancement Act, we at NIST had several -- had
interactions with federal agencies and were
very cognizant of the limited technical
resources, the limited budget resources and the
value of relying on the private sector that led
to the standardization system.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. During the time that you were at
NIST, did NIST take any positions with respect
to whether or not incorporation by reference
should respect copyright protection?
A. No.
Q. During the time you were at NIST,
were you aware of any other government agencies
taking the position on that front?
A. No.
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Do you know if the OMB A-119 takes
any position with respect to whether government
agencies should respect copyrights of standards

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development organizations?
1
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
2
THE WITNESS: Beginning with the
3
1998 version of the OMB Circular A-119, which 4
is the first one with which I am familiar, all
5
versions pursuant -- succeeding versions have 6
directed agencies to respect the copyrights of 7
the standards developing organizations.
8
BY MR. FEE:
9
Q. Are you familiar with 1 C.F.R. Part
10
51?
11
A. No. Does it have a title?
12
Q. Yeah. It's the Office of Federal
13
Register's regulation with respect to
14
incorporated by reference.
15
A. Yes, I am familiar with it.
16
Q. Do you know if the Office of Federal
17
Register's regulations with respect to
18
incorporation by reference, take the position 19
with respect to whether or not copyrights
20
should be terminated upon incorporation by
21
reference?
22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: I believe the
regulations as well as the related IBR handbook
direct agencies to respect the copyrights of
standards developing organizations.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. During the time that you were at
NIST, were you involved in any discussion with
either the OMB or OFR with respect to the issue
of copyright protection for standards that are
incorporated by reference?
A. I was involved in discussions with
OMB, the office of international -- information
and regulatory affairs and with representatives
of the Office of the Federal Register about -about the policy of incorporation by reference.
Q. Did you support OMB and OFR's
positions with respect to protection of
copyrighted works after incorporation by
reference?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes, and that was the
Page 320

Commerce Department's position as well.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. During the time that you were at
NIST, did NIST take any positions with respect
to whether or not reasonable accessibility
required free online, ability to print and save
standards incorporated by reference?
A. We -- the institute did not take a
position.
Q. Are you aware of any government
agencies that took a position with respect to
that issue during the time that you were at
NIST?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Are you aware of any government
agency that have ever required free online
access, including the ability to print and
download in order to be deemed reasonably
accessible under the Freedom of Information
Act?
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MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of
any.

Page 323

1

2 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT
3

BY MR. FEE:
4
Q. During the time that you were on the
5
ANSI board as -- you're acting on behalf of
6
NIST, correct?
7
A. That's correct.
8
Q. Did you, on behalf of NIST, express
9
any objections to the positions that ANSI took 10
with respect to copyrightability of standards
11
after they become incorporated by reference? 12
A. I did not.
13
Q. To the best of your recollection,
14
did you agree with the positions that ANSI took 15
with respect to the need for copyright
16
protection after incorporation by reference?
17
A. Yes, I did.
18
Q. And you were doing that on behalf of 19
NIST?
20
A. That's correct.
21
MR. BECKER: I will object to form
22
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MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.

to that last one.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Were you doing that on behalf of
NIST?
MR. BECKER: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. FEE:
Q. Okay. Are you aware of any instance
in which an individual was unable to access an
ASTM standard?
A. No, I am not aware of an instance.
Q. Are you aware of any instance when
an individual was unable to access an NFPA
standard?
A. No.
Q. Are you aware of any instance when
an individual was unable to access an ASHRAE
standard?
A. No, I am not.
MR. FEE: I have no other questions.
MR. BECKER: I would just like to do
a quick redirect on that.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Ms. Saunders, prior to -- when Mr.

Fee started talking to you at 6:28 today, were
you aware of any of the subjects that Mr. Fee
might ask you in the past several minutes since
he first began questioning you?
A.

No.

Q.

You said that it cost money to

develop standards, correct?
A.

Yes.

Q.

Do only SDOs pay those costs to

develop a standard?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: SDOs bear the cost of
maintaining the infrastructure, including IT
infrastructure and organizational
infrastructure, staff, et cetera, to enable the
development of standards. That's an expense on
the part of SDOs.
BY MR. BECKER:
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Q. Do the individuals who participate
in the development of standards bear costs in
order to develop those standards?
A. So it varies based on the interest
category in which the -- in which the
participants are categorized. I mentioned many
standards developing organizations maintained
low or zero participation fees for the
volunteers, but volunteers or their home -and/or their home organizations will of course
bear the cost of the travel of the staff to
participate in a technical committee meeting
when that travel is necessary.
Q. And those costs might also include
hotel or accommodation costs as well, correct?
A. It's possible, yes.
Q. And those costs might also involve
time off of their job and other things like
that, correct?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: So the costs of the
existing private sector-led standards
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development system are shared by all of the
participants in the system. The standards
developing organizations as I mentioned bear a
significant share of the cost and the various
participants across a broad range of
stakeholders also bear some share of those
costs as well, distributed across a large range
of interested individuals and organizations.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Companies pay costs for their
employees to participate in standards
development, correct?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Companies have an -that have an interest in standards because
those standards are relevant to their business
models in either domestic or global
competitiveness, they find that that's a
business expense that is relevant for
companies.
BY MR. BECKER:

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Q. Governments pay costs for their
employees who participate in the development of
those standards, correct?
A. Government -MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Government agencies do
support their technical staff participating in
standards development.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That's at both the federal and state
level, correct?
A. I can't -MR. GRIFFIN: Object to form.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: -- speak to the state
level.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Academics or their institutions pay
costs for the academics to participate in
standards development, correct?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I actually don't -I'm not familiar with how universities fund or
do not fund their participants. I'm only
familiar with the government agencies and
company representatives.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do the participants who develop the
standards receive any of the proceeds of the
sales of those standards?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: No. They are not the
copyright owner.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Is that the sole determinant of who
should receive the proceeds?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
THE WITNESS: In my experience, the
participants in voluntary standards development
process do not receive a share of the proceeds
from the sale and licensing of those documents.
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Even though they bear part of the
costs for the development of those documents?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: As I said, the cost is
borne across the entire private sector-led
system, it is widely distributed.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You testified that SDOs have a wide
range of volunteer stakeholders and that they
manage the process by which -- sorry, one
second, excuse me.
You testified that SDOs have a wide
range of volunteers or stakeholders and that
they manage the process by which those people
collaborate; is that correct?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Can you clarify what
you mean by "manage the process by which they
collaborate."
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BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Do SDOs manage the collaboration
between individuals in -- in developing
standards?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection to form.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: ANSI-accredited SDOs,
I can speak to from personal experience, manage
a process which adheres to the ANSI essential
requirements which are also reflected in the
World Trade Organization's technical barriers
to trade agreement, so that -- those processes
are open to all materially interested and
affected stakeholders.
There is a policy of seeking
balance, ensuring lack of dominance, ensuring
that there are dispute settlement procedures
and reaching consensus.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. You had said just earlier that SDOs
managed the process by which volunteers
collaborate; is that correct?

Page 331

1

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

2

THE WITNESS: That activity includes

3 the process of developing the standard from
4 start to finish and participating in both -- as
5 the document moves from stage to stage. I
6 can't speak to the details of whether federal
7 agencies staff actually put pen to paper.
8
9

BY MR. BECKER:
Q.

Do state and municipal governments

10 also send employees to participate in the
11 development of standards?
12

MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

13

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

14

THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of

15 the state and municipal level activities.
16

MR. BECKER: Okay. All set. Thank

17 you.
18

MR. FEE: I actually have one more

19 question.
20

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR ASTM

21

INTERNATIONAL

22

BY MR. FEE:

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MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Did I say that
specifically?
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. That was my recollection.
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection. That was
the question.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. Did those volunteers include U.S.
Government employees?
MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: In specific cases
where the standards development activity or the
-- either a new standard or the maintenance of
a standard has a direct -- is of a direct
interest to a particular agency, the agency may
assign staff to participate in that activity.
BY MR. BECKER:
Q. And does that activity include the
drafting of standards?

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Page 332

1

Q.

Can you turn to Saunders Exhibit 1,

2 please, the subpoena.
3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

I want you to look at Exhibit A

5 which is this -- this issue in this case.
6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

My question is: Do you have any

8 knowledge as to whether any government employee
9 played any role in any of the standards listed
10 in Exhibit A?
11
12

A.

I do not.
MR. FEE: Okay. That's the only

13 question I had.
14

MR. GRIFFIN: Thank you all.

15

MR. BECKER: Thank you.

16

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the

17 record at 6:47 p.m. This concludes today's
18 testimony given by Mary Saunders. The total
19 number of media units used was six and will be
20 retained by Veritext Legal Solutions.
21

(Whereupon, the proceeding was

22 concluded at 6:47 p.m.)
Pages 329 - 332

Page 333

1
2

I declare under penalty of perjury

3

under the laws that the foregoing is

4

true and correct.

5
6
7

Executed on _________________ , 20___,
at _____________, ___________________________.

8
9
10
11

___________________________
MARY SAUNDERS

12
13
14

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME

15
16

THIS _____DAY OF ________________, 2019.

17
18

__________________ ______________________

19

(NOTARY PUBLIC)

MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:

20
21
22
Page 334

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, Bonnie L. Russo, the officer before
whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do
hereby certify that the witness whose testimony
appears in the foregoing deposition was duly
sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness
was taken by me in shorthand and thereafter
reduced to computerized transcription under my
direction; that said deposition is a true
record of the testimony given by said witness;
that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor
employed by any of the parties to the action in
which this deposition was taken; and further,
that I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel employed by the parties
hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested
in the outcome of the action.

_____________________________
Notary Public in and for
the District of Columbia
My Commission expires: June 30, 2020

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

Pages 333 - 334

Transcript Word Index

[& - 1-8-14]
&
&
3:6,16 4:5,13 11:18,22
12:7
0
001-162
9:22
00167221
191:6
00167221-7222
6:7
00264718
119:3
00264718-723
5:12
00264721
119:13
00264723
119:3
0033
297:3
0033-51
9:8
004
303:1
01215
1:4 11:4
015659
279:5
016254
288:15
016265
288:15
0263
290:4
0263-267
8:10
02677
291:19
0268
290:20
0268-0276
8:13
0277-284
8:15
0303
204:8
0303-307
6:9
0307
204:8
0308
205:16
0308-0327
6:12

031512
236:9
0327
205:16
0328
229:21
0328-0336
6:15
0336
229:21
0638
179:16
0638-0644
6:5
0644
179:16
0680
292:14
0680-684
8:17
0685
293:22
0685-691
8:20
0715
295:14
0715-719
9:2
0729
296:8
0729-736
9:5
0771
298:2
0771-775
9:11
0776
298:19
0776-782
9:14
0783
299:21
0783-790
9:16
0791
300:15
0791-797
9:19
090
304:9
1
1
1:22 5:7 10:14 15:3,4,8
115:17 160:21 162:6
165:17 177:19 220:5 231:5

1 (cont.)
241:7 273:20 302:9 318:10
332:1
1.2
301:2
1/14
256:16
1:11
115:21
1:13
1:4 11:4
10
6:3 179:12,15 212:6
10:16
1:17 10:4
100
304:14
10005
4:15
10-27-11
8:5
11
6:6 190:14 191:4 277:14
1111
3:7
11-19-14
9:18
11-30-11
253:3
1155
3:17
11-6-13
9:4
117
5:10
1179
289:12
1179-187
8:8
118
5:11
1187
289:12
119
9:8 34:10 282:1 297:8
317:20 318:4
12
5:3 6:8 28:1 39:7 55:22
78:20,21 204:1,5 215:18
12,000
133:10
12:23
115:17
1250
2:12 11:6

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

12th
4:5
13
6:10 205:10,14 215:21
14
6:13 216:21 229:15,19
257:4
140
252:19 253:2
14th
295:1
15
1:16 5:7 6:15 10:5 55:22
230:11,15 234:10,13
235:16
150
5:13
1512866
93:18
1527
294:17
1527-535
8:22
1536
5:11 117:6
155
307:13
156
5:16
157
5:19 306:7
16
5:9 6:17 223:15 230:5
232:7,11 234:9 236:7
237:2
160
5:21
161
308:19 309:3
162
302:9 309:11
164
6:2
167222
191:6
17
6:19 235:2,6 237:1 238:15
179
6:3
17th
24:6
18
7:2 124:2 237:6,10 238:8
304:18
1-8-14
7:15

[18th - 30]
18th
24:1,5
19
7:3 227:1 236:16 237:22
238:4,14,17 300:19
190
6:6
1968
199:12,13,16 200:6,8
1988
22:1
1989
28:21
1993
24:15,16 25:2 44:13 47:11
47:13,18 48:2,8 121:2
1995
27:15,19,21 28:2
1996
25:5 287:13
1998
318:4
1st
21:7
2
2
4:14 5:9 16:1,2,6 20:10
115:21 159:20 163:3 166:8
206:5 207:17
2.1.
298:11
2.2
292:1
2.3
180:5
2.4.
292:2
2.6
180:18
2:00
18:4,18 19:2
2:07
159:20
2:36
160:2
20
7:6 240:15,19 333:6
20004
3:8,18
2001
24:5,20 25:1 49:3 194:11
194:19
2003
45:1

2004
181:8
2007
46:21 61:22
2008
24:2,6 46:22 62:1 185:9
191:9
2010
53:15 56:5 61:6
2011
23:11 24:2 151:7 180:10
185:13 194:11,19 239:7
288:19
2012
22:9,17,22 23:12 53:15
56:5 61:7 179:20 181:6
182:19 184:2,14 189:10
211:5 214:11,13 231:6
251:7 289:16 290:8 291:5
291:22
2013
214:11,13 230:5 263:21
292:19 294:4 295:1,18
296:12
2014
57:6 297:9,11 298:6 299:3
300:3,19
2015
57:6 117:13,14
2016
66:13,16 70:11 71:16,18
135:10,15 139:4,6,8
2017
21:7,15 22:11 57:6
2018
6:2 92:9 164:18 304:18
2019
1:16 10:5 117:18 333:16
2020
334:22
202-220-1115
3:19
202-739-5596
3:9
204
6:8
205
6:10
207
44:17 122:1 123:4
21
7:8 151:7 245:12,16
289:16 292:18 294:4
212-238-8672
4:16

22
7:10 181:6 184:2,14
247:16,20
2-27-12
7:19
2-27-13
7:17
229
6:13
2296
5:18 156:22
23
7:12 161:10 250:14,20
255:19
230
6:15
232
6:17
235
6:19
237
7:2,3
23rd
252:10
24
7:14 250:16,21 252:11
290:7 291:5,22 298:6
299:3 300:3
240
7:6 210:2
245
7:8
247
7:10
25
7:15 45:2 47:18 256:8,12
250
7:12,14
2538
5:20 159:10
256
7:15
259
7:17
26
7:17 161:1 259:3,7 276:7
268
7:19
2690
150:6
2690-2692
5:15
2692
150:6
27
7:19 182:19 211:5 232:19

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

27 (cont.)
233:17 252:8 268:6,10
288:19
271
7:21
278
8:2
28
7:21 270:5 271:9,13
2845
185:14
2860
6:16 230:17
288
8:4
289
8:7,9
29
8:2 251:7 278:21 279:3
280:18,20,21
290
8:11
291
8:14
292
8:16
293
8:18
294
8:21
295
9:2
296
9:3,6
297
9:9
298
9:12
299
9:15
3
3
5:10 70:18 116:21,22
117:4 123:7 124:17 151:19
160:2 161:11 199:11
203:18 219:19 255:18
285:19 308:17
3:29
203:18
3:41
203:22
30
199:6 280:5,9,20,21
334:22

[300 - a.m.]
300
9:17
301
9:20
3083
6:18 232:13
3084
235:8
3084-3089
6:22
3089
235:8
31
8:4 250:20 288:9,13
311
5:4
3-1-12
6:15
3121
237:11
3121-3122
7:2
3122
237:11
3123
238:6
3123-3128
7:5
3128
238:6
3-15-12
6:17
3-18-12
7:2
32
8:7 289:6,10
3-21-13
8:19
3-22-12
6:4
323
5:3
33
8:9 289:20 290:2
331
5:4
334
1:22
34
8:11 290:14,18
3461686
1:21
35
8:14 291:13,17
36
8:16 292:8,12

3602
240:21
3602-3604
7:7
3604
240:21
37
8:18 293:8,20
3792
245:18
3792-793
7:9
3793
245:18
38
8:21 294:12,16
3844
7:11 247:22
39
9:2 295:8,12
3rd
21:14 22:11
4
4
5:11 118:19 119:1,12
123:9 180:2 203:22 213:6
279:22
40
9:3 296:2,6
41
9:6 296:19 297:1,16
4-10-12
7:6
415-875-2300
4:7
42
9:9 297:18,22
4-21-11
5:14,17,20
4-27-12
6:6
43
9:12 298:13,17 299:8
44
9:15 299:15,19
4472
250:21
4472-4481
7:15
4478
252:14
4481
251:1
45
9:17 300:9,13

4530
250:20
4530-531
7:13
46
9:20 301:20 302:15,19

70
199:6,10,13,17 200:6
7-16-12
7:10,12
7-24-14
9:10,15
7-29-19
5
5:9
5
73
5:13 149:22 150:4 154:1
184:6
180:17 188:3 280:4 311:6
75
5:15
45:6 46:12
279:15
75.513-1
5:18
199:12
279:22
8
5:37
8
280:4
5:21 160:16,20 170:6
501
8056
70:18 285:19 308:17
7:16 256:14
51
8-28-15
318:11
5:11
5-16-13
8802
6:14
259:9
5-21-12
8802-805
8:7
7:18
5-24-12
8804
8:14
260:1
5-29-12
8805
7:21
259:9
53
8b
67:19,20
169:19
555
4:5
9
57.12048
9
199:6
6:2 164:12,16 165:9
6
177:15,16 239:11
9053
6
268:12
5:16 156:16,20 157:16
158:8,19,22 160:10 237:18 9053-056
7:20
295:18 296:12 297:9,11
9056
311:10
268:12
6:20
9121
311:6
271:15
6:28
9121-124
311:10 323:5
7:22
6:47
9124
332:17,22
271:15
6-27-12
93
7:8
24:20 45:1
6-28-19
9:20
94104
4:6
7
a
7
5:19 157:10 158:19 159:9 a.m.
160:11 165:8
1:17 10:4

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

[a119 - agencies]
a119
45:22 79:3 85:3 102:6,7,9
102:10 114:2 139:7 150:17
204:22
ability
178:3 247:4 315:19 316:5
320:6,19
able
19:22 43:22 132:11 141:21
145:13 170:10 171:22
197:11 248:9 271:3
abridges
4:9
academics
211:7 233:19 326:19,20
accepted
71:19
access
136:5 138:8 140:15,19
141:16 142:2,3,6 145:7,14
146:9,17 147:4,12 148:5
148:15 149:2,10 152:1,5,8
153:16 154:8,9,15 155:10
155:13 166:12,18 167:12
168:22 169:12,15 170:7,20
170:21 172:16 174:16
207:12 208:1,7,12,19,20
208:21 209:3,14,16,19,20
210:11 217:3,7,10,14
218:4 219:7,11 220:3
224:3,22 225:12 226:13
228:3 242:6,11,17 243:2,2
243:6,9,21 244:17 250:4
272:9 274:10 320:19 322:9
322:13,17
accessibility
320:5
accessible
303:14 304:2,4 320:21
accessing
129:4 170:12 171:6,13
172:2,4 175:2 225:6
accommodate
155:7,12
accommodation
324:15
account
101:4 102:1
accredit
79:19 131:8
accreditation
49:16 74:17 75:3,4,19 76:3
76:6,7,9,11,14,16,17,18,20
77:2,8,13,14 78:1,7,14
79:15 80:1,5,10,12,17,22
81:2,5,6,11,12,16,19 82:4

accreditation (cont.)
82:11 83:5,19 129:19
130:14,21,22 306:2
accreditations
81:4
accredited
79:21 127:21 131:4,13
210:2,5 220:7,13 260:17
329:7
accreditor
75:7
accreditors
77:1 82:16 83:19
accredits
74:17,20 123:2 130:18
131:8
accrue
106:19
accurate
117:18 156:5 161:16 197:9
259:19 280:16 297:16
299:8 303:7
accurately
155:21 280:12 289:2,17
290:9,11 292:3,21 294:9
295:5,21 296:16 298:9
300:6,22
achieve
36:14 58:6 155:8
achieved
38:6
achieving
273:1
acquired
208:7
acquisitions
73:1
acronym
195:3 196:2
act
27:15,19,21 30:11 39:6
45:18 77:17 78:5,19 79:14
80:7,16 81:15,17 82:3
83:16 84:6,10 89:11 92:19
93:16 99:2,9 100:14 101:3
104:3 109:18 152:17 178:9
185:12 218:16 282:1
313:11 317:2 320:22
acted
186:7
acting
321:6
action
15:13 127:20 202:22 203:7
286:3 334:12,16

actions
99:8 128:4 164:9 239:15
240:2 282:18 284:3 285:18
285:21 287:1
activities
9:13 27:2,3,7,8,10 28:6
30:10,13 39:11,12,17,17
40:4 43:13 45:20 48:17,20
49:6,7 51:4,5,18 52:7,17
54:2 62:8,12,14,19 63:3
68:1 69:4,6 71:6,7 72:16
72:21 73:5,20 74:13,18,19
74:21 75:2,13,14 77:19
79:1,4,10 96:4 102:13
119:18 152:10 180:6,18
181:10 197:8 204:16,20
261:1,4 268:18 282:2,3,20
283:16 285:6 286:9,14,18
287:1,16 299:1 306:1
308:7 312:5 313:18 314:8
314:18 331:15
activity
31:4 81:13 285:14 287:20
312:17 330:15,19,21 331:2
actual
47:1 130:17 137:7
acus
144:8,13 170:2 239:8
249:15 251:12,14 252:9
255:19,20 256:3
add
129:6
added
224:13 239:19
adding
239:16
addition
135:20 160:13 201:8
additional
21:20 88:19 123:9 202:18
203:6,12 241:5 246:14,17
address
14:13 130:7,7 188:1,21
225:2 233:3,14 244:19
247:7 261:1,11
addressee
232:15 241:13,14 251:5
275:14
addressees
232:17 241:6
addressing
140:3 261:3
adhere
286:9
adheres
329:9

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

administered
44:16 123:4
administers
78:9 80:2 131:2
administration
23:21 24:14 25:6,8 28:20
29:1 34:4 47:10 55:1 82:1
84:22 85:10,20 175:13
192:17 199:4 211:4,9
212:14 214:20 233:21
235:13 252:15 303:10
305:6 306:16 307:4
administration's
85:7 182:22
administrative
99:2,9 100:13 101:2 104:2
143:13,14,15,20 144:8
147:21 163:7 170:2 249:8
249:9 316:14
adopted
316:6
advancement
27:15,19 30:11 39:6 45:18
70:20 71:4 78:19 92:19
93:16 152:17 178:9 218:16
282:1 313:11 317:2
adverse
247:3
advice
66:4 170:19 186:12,13
advise
62:11
advisement
89:3
advisory
44:16 121:21 122:8 123:3
123:4 238:21 303:16 304:1
advocacy
307:11 308:10
advocate
107:15 113:5,12 115:3
281:17
advocated
250:9
advocates
107:20 111:20
affairs
25:11 214:5 246:22 319:14
affect
137:12
affiliated
189:13
affiliations
11:15 32:12,14
agencies
27:5 28:3 30:8,12,15 37:9

[agencies - apparently]
agencies (cont.)
39:8,10 40:1 41:14 73:18
73:18,19 78:21 79:9 85:12
85:17 86:1,7,20 89:2 90:15
94:1,9 95:11 96:4 98:21,21
99:6 102:1,11 105:9
107:21 108:7,21 111:1,21
112:1 113:3 114:12 134:1
136:10 137:4 139:9 147:1
150:19 151:22 152:5,6,7,7
152:12,18 155:8,13 167:11
167:20 168:4,10,14,17,21
169:4,20 170:19 188:7
195:20 197:21 200:18
201:13 217:4 218:17
219:20 220:2 228:14,17
232:5 239:13,22 252:3
261:15 281:19 282:12,14
282:17,18 283:1,3,4,8,19
283:21 284:3,6,11,19
287:13 316:12,22 317:3,15
317:22 318:7 319:4 320:11
326:7 327:5 331:7
agency
31:1,2,5,11,17,21 40:1,1,5
40:6 45:18 96:3 99:3,11,19
99:21,21 100:20 102:21
108:5,17,22 109:5,14,18
109:22 110:4,7,7,8,9 111:1
111:9 112:16 113:4,4,6,13
115:9,13 137:21 140:3
154:4 155:1 164:3,5 166:1
166:6,9,20 167:1,8,13,14
167:17,18 168:18,18
178:11 196:5,18,22 197:6
197:8,9,12,15 198:3,6,12
198:13 199:20 200:1,13
201:3,15,15,17,20,20
202:2,3,6 211:10 228:19
233:22 238:20 260:6
261:17 282:2 283:13,15
320:18 330:18,18
agency's
30:21 113:9,16 115:6
agenda
5:16,19 6:8 8:9,16 9:2,9
157:2 159:4,13 160:10,11
180:5,18 204:10 205:21
230:4 290:6,12 292:1,16
292:19,22 293:16 295:7,16
298:4,10,11 301:2,3
agendas
157:4,7 293:4,6
agent
282:16

ago
19:8 47:18 55:17 156:4
171:21 183:6 186:3
agree
10:13 20:2 295:6 321:15
agreed
55:2 151:20 266:19 267:8
306:22 307:1
agreement
5:21 20:3 26:5,13 79:7
131:22 161:4 226:12,16,21
255:19 264:20 266:9 267:5
283:17 329:12
ah
306:9
ahead
78:10
aid
140:12
air
1:7 10:21 216:1
ajit
253:5,18
al
15:18 277:11
alec
307:7,10,15
alias
241:21
alice
308:22 309:7
allow
151:21 231:12
allowed
176:12
allows
100:22
altered
214:2
alternative
34:15
amend
160:8 182:21 211:7 233:20
america
61:11
american
1:3,7 3:2 10:17,20 20:21
20:22 38:10 52:4 74:17
81:1 82:4 127:15 128:1,4
128:12 131:6,15 132:5,11
132:17 133:1,3,6,7,16,18
133:22 134:3,6,20 136:9
136:11 209:12 257:14
amicus
277:12 278:4,17,20

amount
29:5
anab
82:5
andrew
4:4 11:20
annual
83:7,11,12
ansi
5:10,11,15,18,20 6:5,9,12
6:15,16,18,19,22 7:2,3,5,7
7:9,11,13,15,16,18,20,22
8:8,10,13,15,17,20,22 9:2
9:5,8,11,14,16,19 21:2,10
23:4 38:9 40:12,13,15,16
40:20,21 41:6,10,11,12,14
42:11,12,13,15,18,22 43:1
43:6,9,13,17 44:1,5 47:7
47:14 48:2,3,10,13,20 49:6
49:8,12,15,20 50:6,22 51:2
51:3,12,20 52:2,3 53:3,5
64:18 65:1,10,18,22 66:2,4
66:10 67:3,5,6,8,10,17,18
67:19,22 68:6,21,22 69:16
70:3 71:11 72:11,15 73:15
73:22 74:14,16 75:6,19
76:3,6,6,9,16,22 80:5,8
81:3,10,14,18 82:1,4,5
83:19 105:11 107:9,15,20
111:20 113:5,12,18 114:1
114:5,7 116:6 117:6,6,10
117:14,20 118:2 120:1,3,4
120:4,6,8,11,12,14,20
122:22 123:2,10,19,19,20
124:1,3,5,6,8,15,18 125:5
125:12,17 127:11,11,12,17
128:3,10,16,18,19,20
129:19 130:12,14,18,21
131:2,7,13,17 134:5,7
135:20,21 136:2,4,12,15
136:19,22 137:2,3,3,7,11
137:17 138:8,14 139:3,11
139:16,18,21 140:7,11,16
140:22 141:8 146:5 150:6
150:6,6,11 151:2,5,19
156:10,21,22 157:6 159:6
159:10 168:15,15 179:16
179:19 181:4,10,12,15,17
182:3,7,12,17 183:8,9,11
183:12,20,21 184:1,6
189:11,22 190:6,8,12
204:8,8,10 205:15,16
210:5 211:17,22 216:21
217:2,22 219:1 220:7,10
220:13,19 221:1,2,9,14,15
223:3 224:17,19 225:6,11

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

ansi (cont.)
225:17 226:2,15,17 227:11
227:16 229:3,20 230:5,16
230:22 231:2,9,12 232:13
233:2,14 234:19 235:7,10
236:8 237:1,10,16 238:6,6
240:20,21 241:5,5,8,19,20
243:15,20 244:3,8,19,21
245:18 247:22 250:20,21
251:12,14,20 252:2,14
253:22 254:16 255:9,20
256:3,13,14 259:9,9 260:1
260:17 268:11 269:3,15
271:15,15,15 272:5 274:2
274:12,17 277:12 278:2,3
278:4,8,17 281:2,5,12
284:15 285:5,19 286:12
288:18 289:11,12,15 290:4
290:7,19 291:5,18,21
292:13,17 293:6,16,21
294:3,17,20 295:13,17
296:8,11 297:2 298:1,5,18
299:1,20 300:2,14,18
306:2,21 310:7 315:11,14
315:22 321:6,10,15 329:7
329:9
ansi's
40:16 68:1 69:4,4,5 73:16
81:7 83:4 190:2 219:22
222:17,21 234:5 281:16
293:14 310:7
answer
29:22 31:14 32:8 37:22
47:20,21 77:12 84:1,7
111:4 129:7 138:19 142:10
148:10 155:19 175:10
229:9 264:20 266:9 267:20
271:8
answered
90:2 147:7,15 149:5
answers
13:5 14:11 116:1 160:6,7
anybody
143:7 214:9,14 310:3,13
310:17
anyway
189:16
api
208:18 209:5,10
apologies
279:10
apologize
190:20
apparently
252:21

[appeal - aware]
appeal
127:20,22 128:3 277:14
278:7
appeals
118:6 127:6 128:2
appear
230:3 289:2
appearances
3:1 4:1 11:15
appears
119:20 196:15 199:7,14
206:17 257:2 293:1 299:10
334:6
applicable
163:7
application
161:15 162:3
applied
70:4,14,16,17,19 71:1
175:20
applies
46:12
apply
70:9 130:20 162:16 175:15
approach
187:1
appropriate
28:6 85:13 190:3 244:12
315:3
approval
211:10 233:22 301:3
approve
58:11
approved
127:16 161:13 162:1,21
approves
69:12
approving
124:13
approximately
44:20,22 55:19 57:4 66:17
80:11 83:3 123:22 124:2
127:3
april
151:7 304:18
archives
84:22 85:6,9,20 175:12
182:21 211:3,8 233:20
235:12
area
35:15 57:16 84:11 108:20
112:18 207:1
areas
30:22
argument
213:13,18

arguments
207:7,9,15,20
arose
312:10
arrange
140:18 151:20
ashrae
277:6 322:17
asked
18:12 54:21 55:5,7,9 63:20
64:9,14 69:9 103:18
104:10,17,22 105:18 106:7
116:5 139:4 147:14 191:15
203:10 245:9 247:5 248:22
262:19 264:13,16 265:20
asking
13:4 19:8 25:21 75:21 76:6
82:14 105:22 114:19 175:3
190:22 191:19 212:22
246:3 248:5 261:10 262:4
262:6
asme
188:5 274:17 275:1
aspects
59:18 60:11 224:16 264:14
assessment
74:5,8,13,15,18 75:2,6,8
75:14,18 76:2,12 78:22
79:4,10 82:10,11 83:17
84:5 294:21
assign
330:19
assignment
307:16
assignments
306:11 310:14
assist
140:2
assistance
140:12 141:9
assistant
23:19
assisted
52:20 182:7
assisting
220:1
associate
16:11 21:11 22:7 23:5,9
72:12,17,19 138:20 260:12
associated
75:15 244:9
association
1:6 3:14 4:21 10:19 46:17
61:21 62:7 63:1,20 64:5,7
70:19 71:3 81:2 189:20
199:5 209:15 216:2 307:9

associations
42:7
assume
200:5 209:8 289:19 291:8
assumed
64:14
assuming
223:19
assumption
224:2
assumptions
196:17,21
assure
142:1 169:11
astm
1:4 3:3 10:18 12:3,5 15:18
32:20 44:13,15 45:7,12
46:4,8,13 53:11,13,15,17
53:19,21 54:2,6,13,16,19
54:22 55:6,9,13,20 56:3
58:17 59:14 60:4 61:7,9,13
61:16 121:1,7 122:4,14
123:5 188:4 208:17,22
209:3 274:21 275:10,17
277:5,11 279:4,5 288:15
311:11 322:10 331:20
astmo16254-265
8:6
astm's
209:1
attached
235:15 237:2,17 252:3
256:2
attaching
307:16
attachment
9:21 236:8 237:19 308:5
309:10 310:19
attend
59:3,9 68:2 285:13
attendance
204:11
attended
304:17
attending
11:14 68:9
attention
260:15 310:18
attest
142:13,22
attorney
116:16 302:2,11 334:14
attributor
206:16 216:10
audible
13:15

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

audio
10:11,11
audit
191:21
august
1:16 10:4
auspices
147:20
authentic
233:4 259:20 297:16 299:9
authoritative
92:12 94:14 95:2,8
authorities
108:6
authority
177:19 197:7
authorized
174:6,8
authorizing
110:15,18 178:5
automatically
68:17 123:18,20 125:5,21
availability
52:11 138:12 139:9,13
140:4 141:10,13 142:1
165:11 170:1,8 178:1
220:3 223:9 242:18 248:12
249:21 255:22 261:12
263:20,22 273:1
available
18:13,14 31:5,10 50:18
53:3 62:11 83:7 86:11
140:9 141:3,18 142:8,18
143:5,9 144:17,21 147:1
165:13,21 166:3,7 167:3,8
167:20 168:2 169:22 177:3
177:10 189:8 207:9,16
208:16 210:18 212:4,17
213:2,9 215:2,6 220:11
223:4 227:3,8 242:3,4,8,9
242:15,21 243:6,17,21
244:10,14 245:1 246:10
250:3,9 261:18 262:8,13
262:15 272:6,11,12,17,18
273:6,12,22 274:3 275:2
avenue
3:7
aviation
303:10
avoid
241:13
avoids
90:7
aware
15:20 31:18 48:11 75:18
76:1 94:21 97:17,21 98:1,5

[aware - board]
aware (cont.)
102:14 103:1,11,16,21
104:6,8,15,20 105:16
111:8 112:20 117:15 129:2
130:11,13 145:5,18 147:19
148:3 166:16 167:10
168:20 169:7 171:3,12,13
178:10,17 179:1,5 185:3
206:12 221:2,15 223:9
243:15,19 269:16 274:1
283:12,15,18 284:2 313:21
314:1,15,20 317:15 320:10
320:17 321:2 322:8,11,12
322:16 323:6
b
back
19:18 55:15 66:13,14
67:11 77:16 79:12 115:19
123:7 133:15 147:8 159:22
180:21 185:19 193:19,20
203:20 232:20 236:7 276:6
280:2 311:8
background
30:19 60:5,6
backwards
23:10,18
bad
35:17
bakery
268:18 269:5,8,17,19
270:1
balance
34:14 36:2,5,6,14 38:5
58:6 128:22 129:12,13
130:2,3 177:21 329:16
balancing
177:17
barriers
5:22 26:4 79:6 131:22
160:21 161:4 329:11
based
68:20 208:15 286:21
287:20,22 288:4 309:15
310:9,10 314:5 316:18
324:4
basis
67:12 69:7 122:22 137:2
139:16 166:6 176:16
193:16 198:15 208:16
213:20 244:11 246:16
264:1 266:16,21 272:11
310:14
bates
117:6 119:12 232:12 235:7
237:11 245:18 247:21

bates (cont.)
252:14 256:14 279:5
bcc
233:3 241:12,15
bcc'd
241:11
bear
323:16 324:2,11 325:3,6
328:2
becker
4:3 5:3 11:17,18 12:17
15:2,6,22 16:4 19:15,19
20:6,11 25:16 26:15 28:15
31:8,15 32:11 33:10,21
35:8 37:3,13 39:1,14 40:7
41:19 42:2 43:5,20 45:9
46:3 47:22 48:18 50:4,10
50:16 53:10 54:10 58:9,15
59:6,17 60:1 62:3 63:6
64:16 65:8,14 69:14 70:1
73:12 77:7,20 78:11 79:11
80:4 82:17 83:2 84:3,12,17
85:5 86:16 87:4 88:1,14,20
90:3,18 91:8,13,18 92:10
93:1 94:22 95:6,13,20 96:7
96:14 97:11 98:14 99:10
100:5,16 101:6,17 102:5
102:22 103:15 104:7,14
105:10,19 106:4,11,20
108:2 109:3 110:1,16
111:7,15,19 112:12 114:6
114:13 115:2,14,22 116:20
117:2,19 118:12,21 119:22
120:17 121:12 122:12
123:6 125:16 126:1 127:2
128:15 130:10 131:10
132:9,22 133:14,21 134:10
136:1 137:10 138:13 139:1
140:5,20 141:14 142:14
143:2 144:1,14 145:4,21
146:6,14 147:6 148:2,12
148:21 149:7 150:2 152:3
153:1,13,21 155:2,20
156:6,18 157:12,15 158:6
158:17 159:8,16 160:3,18
163:22 164:14 168:19
169:5,13 170:4 171:2,11
171:19 172:18 173:14,20
174:7,20 175:17 176:2,15
177:7,14 178:16,22 179:14
182:6,11 183:18 186:15
187:7 190:17 194:8,20
195:22 197:17 201:6
203:13 204:3 205:12 210:7
213:16 215:17 217:21
218:11,22 219:10 220:4

becker (cont.)
221:13 222:4,11,20 223:8
223:14 225:10,22 226:10
228:6 229:2,12,17 230:13
232:9 234:14 235:4,21
236:6 237:8 238:2,12
240:10,17 243:4,14 244:6
245:14 247:18 250:7,18
254:6,14 255:1,17 256:10
258:2,18 259:5 261:8
262:10 263:2 265:2,9
266:2,11,15,20 267:9,17
268:8 270:16 271:2,11
273:3,16 275:6,15,21
276:5 278:15 279:1,10,18
280:7,19 281:1,8 282:9,22
283:11 284:13 286:11
287:21 288:11 289:8,22
290:16 291:10,15 292:10
293:10 294:14 295:10
296:4,21 297:20 298:15
299:17 300:11 301:15,22
304:21 305:16 306:4
307:20 308:9,14 309:4
310:2,12,21 311:3 312:3
312:13 313:6 314:10,19
315:7,13,21 316:9,20
317:18 318:2 319:1,21
320:14 321:1,22 322:5,21
323:3,22 325:9,22 326:10
326:18 327:7,14 328:1,9
329:1,19 330:5,9,20 331:8
331:16 332:15
bedrock
131:19
began
25:4 323:8
beginning
264:22 318:3
begun
135:20
behalf
2:15 3:2,13 4:2,11 12:3,5,8
48:9 61:12 211:18 311:17
321:6,9,19 322:3
belief
264:1 316:18
believe
19:7 26:6,11,12 44:14
46:21 48:14 53:3 55:8,22
61:11,22 80:16 81:1 82:6
83:6 107:12 116:21 121:1
124:14 135:19 136:15
141:6,8 143:18 158:18,21
161:20 184:3 186:10 216:5
220:14 233:1 242:7 270:5

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

believe (cont.)
272:15 295:3 297:17
307:12 313:2 319:2
believed
265:10 312:10
believes
192:7 244:8
believing
221:2,15
belongs
221:6
beneficial
154:7
benefit
106:12,18 123:8 131:12,18
312:1,7,7
benefits
113:18 114:8 132:10,21
190:4 312:10
benefitted
257:10
best
14:22 116:19 130:2 156:1
195:19 197:18 280:17
311:1 313:14 321:14
better
62:18 200:3
beyond
87:21 116:9 171:5 175:9
274:11
bhatia
251:17,18,19 257:5,17
258:3,12,20
bill
185:13,15 212:7,10 213:6
213:22 214:6,10,16,22
246:20 247:2,14 248:21
billed
154:5
bit
29:21 30:19 62:22 116:13
282:4
board
46:17 48:15 49:16 51:21
53:15,17,18 54:3,6,16,19
54:22 55:3,4,12,14,20 56:5
61:6,21 62:6,21 63:3,8,12
63:15,17,18,21 64:10,17
64:19 65:1,5,7,10,20 66:3
66:9 67:12,18,19,20 68:8
68:14,16,18,19,20,21 69:3
69:5,7,9,12,12,16 74:17
76:17 106:21 107:2,4,6,9
107:10 118:2,6 124:6,10
127:7,12 128:2 179:19
183:22 184:2 189:11

[board - changes]
board (cont.)
204:10,11 205:21 230:5
271:19 278:2 290:7 291:5
291:22 292:17 293:18
294:3 295:17 296:11 298:5
300:2,18 321:6
boards
32:15 153:10
bockius
3:6
bodies
28:5 39:10 61:11 76:16
79:20 80:12 81:5
body
40:21,22 75:11,12 76:14
80:10,17,22 81:15,19 82:5
122:22 123:1 133:7,8
140:17 161:14 162:2,22
bonnie
1:20 11:11 334:3
borne
328:7
bottom
161:11 165:10 169:19
170:5 201:7 268:13 272:3
276:14
box
184:5
brazil
207:1
break
14:6 19:19 111:16,17
115:14 159:17 160:4
203:14 279:17,19 282:4
311:2
bremer
248:9 249:6,7,11,13,17,19
250:8 251:7,9
bridges
4:4 11:20 20:8
brief
256:1 278:4,18,20
briefed
69:6
briefings
67:21 69:3
bring
255:21 260:15
bringing
313:12
brings
190:5
broad
244:17 272:9 325:5
broader
22:2 241:20 313:9

broadest
313:16
bsi
202:14 203:6
budget
9:8 69:12 100:3 297:7
317:5
budgetary
54:9,12
building
285:3,3
bullet
161:11 162:6 207:17 219:6
219:19 239:11 255:18
bullets
223:20
burden
141:9
bureau
21:19 23:22
business
154:5 155:6,18 156:10
157:6 158:9 159:2,6
172:10,11 226:6 314:12,12
325:17,20
businesses
272:14 273:14
buy
173:6,11
c
c.f.r.
193:4,6,7 195:4 196:16
199:6,12,22 201:9,12,18
202:15 318:10
c.f.r.s
303:18
c.f.r.s.
303:15,19
cadence
116:18
california
4:5,6 276:16
call
75:2 174:5 175:10 253:4,9
253:12 254:1
called
24:16 31:6 167:21 173:8
211:6 233:18 241:16
campaign
188:6,17
candidate
55:3,10
candidates
70:6

capabilities
175:10
capacity
17:7 44:10 45:13,14 46:15
46:17 47:4 48:4 56:4 61:8
78:1 316:13,13,14
capital
25:9 28:22
captured
202:18
career
25:5 32:20
carl
143:3,18 184:7,13,16
185:20 186:17 191:12
260:15 276:13
carry
108:8,18 109:20 110:5
112:2,17 247:4 316:15
carrying
107:22 111:22 215:16
carter
4:13 11:22
case
1:3 11:4 13:2,15 14:1
121:19 123:3 166:4,4
172:17 196:6 202:20
220:17 243:5 276:16 285:7
301:16,19 306:21 332:5
cases
31:19 76:7 138:2 168:14
213:15,20 221:8 303:16
306:21 312:20 330:14
categories
36:8,11 38:4,8,12,17 41:12
41:20 44:6 124:19,21
125:1
categorized
324:6
category
37:12,15,21 38:3 41:13,15
41:18,18 42:4 44:7 46:5
125:7 129:14 130:5,6
324:5
catherine
20:15
cause
139:4
caution
227:3 267:6
cc'ing
248:2
cease
139:5 216:9 260:18
cell
10:9

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

cellular
10:8
centers
168:11
ceo
66:4 67:22 251:19
certain
60:2 100:1,2,22 110:2
200:18 235:22 236:3
272:10
certainly
66:12,15 156:14
certainty
185:12
certificate
334:1
certification
74:11 75:12 79:20
certifier
75:11
certify
334:5
certiorari
301:7
cetera
323:19
chain
5:11 7:2,6,8,10,12,15,17
7:19,21 134:22 271:16
chair
43:10 49:11,12,14 50:20
65:2,3,18,19,21 66:4,9,10
67:2,5,10 68:11 116:8
118:4,9 123:16 124:13
151:13 153:9 288:21
chairing
67:13 68:10,12
chairman
66:3,8 123:16 189:11
chairs
65:4,7 66:2,2,8 68:16
123:18,20
challenge
166:1
challenging
184:8
chance
14:16
change
35:18 102:14 103:2,21
116:3 117:13 198:2
changed
227:9
changes
9:6 14:17,18 60:15 297:6

[changing - compliance]
changing
263:11,14,16,20 264:3
265:12 267:12
characteristics
34:13 35:2 36:1 162:11
characterize
155:22
characterizes
63:11
charge
81:3,5,10 184:8 213:9
272:13 273:13
charged
193:14
chart
5:10 117:11,14,21 123:10
check
58:17 110:22 223:1
checking
262:20
chief
16:11 24:7,22 49:2,3,9
73:2,3,10 149:13,16 185:7
chilling
239:13,21
china
51:10 206:22
chronological
49:20
circuit
277:13
circular
9:8 34:10 45:22 79:3 85:3
89:4 90:14 92:5,8,20 93:16
101:21 102:7,9,10 114:2
139:7 141:19,20,22 147:22
150:17,20 152:18 170:3
242:19 262:6,7,13 263:6
264:9 282:1 297:8 318:4
circulars
303:17 304:1
circulated
261:14 278:3,9,11
circumstances
176:14
citation
193:7 196:16
citations
193:16 197:10
cite
195:20 196:15
cited
201:12 208:18 209:5
cites
196:4 222:3

citing
195:6 199:7
civil
5:8 15:13
clarification
265:1
clarify
33:8 75:22 126:5 328:20
classified
37:11
clear
59:22 76:5 88:18 174:18
309:22
clearest
14:2
clm.com
4:17
close
266:14 277:19 306:8
closed
158:3,14 159:14 160:13
closer
202:19
coast
202:3 252:9
code
85:15 86:3,14 87:19,20
94:11 109:11 135:13 136:7
136:21 137:20,22 183:2
193:15 194:18 195:17
199:6 203:9 211:11 234:1
304:7
codes
307:22 309:16
codified
45:22
cognizant
317:4
collaborate
166:9,17 312:19 328:17,22
329:22
collaborated
168:21
collaboration
329:2
colleague
11:20 172:22 174:2,12
175:5
collected
225:16 226:2
collects
225:1
columbia
1:2 11:4 334:21
column
195:2 198:14 199:8,14

coming
57:8 266:13
comment
14:18 99:3 100:15,17
101:1 102:17 142:22 143:1
145:10,19 146:4 149:20
154:22 189:5 211:6 241:7
241:8 247:6 249:1 262:8
262:14,16
commented
56:10 122:9
comments
6:20 7:3 60:12,14 99:4
101:3,4 143:21 145:19
148:1 196:7,10 231:20
233:18 235:11 236:15,17
237:17 261:17
commerce
16:13 21:19 23:22 25:4
48:10 71:16 72:2 187:21
284:19 320:1
commercializing
257:14
commission
29:3 41:3 51:7 79:19
333:19 334:22
commit
203:8
commitments
156:13
committee
41:2 43:9,11,12 44:13,15
44:19,21 45:4,8,13 49:12
49:15 50:22 51:2,2,12,14
51:16,16,19,20 52:18,19
53:2,4,4,12 56:8,17 59:4
62:9,20 65:3,4 67:6,7,13
118:3,5,7,9,16,17 119:9,19
120:13,21 121:7,11,14,15
121:18 122:1,7 123:14,17
123:19,21 124:1,4,5,7,8,12
127:7,11 150:11,16,16,21
151:5,5,14 153:8,9 157:19
158:2,5,15 179:19 181:18
182:1 183:13,22 213:13,18
214:5 215:13 238:21
247:11,12,13 257:4 269:1
269:4 288:18 289:15
292:17 293:18 294:3,20,22
294:22 295:17 296:11
298:5 299:2 300:2,18
304:20 305:7 306:16,18
307:4 324:12
committees
48:15 52:1 58:5 62:10
68:10,12,17 120:19 127:9

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

committees (cont.)
153:7
committee's
215:14
common
35:12,19 285:1
commonly
21:1
communications
19:4 79:19 126:3,4 187:22
190:2
community
25:10 29:2,7,11 51:4 52:9
52:10 73:22 74:2 109:2,7
140:3 151:21 164:6 211:19
214:18 246:11 255:22
284:18
companies
135:5 173:6 325:10,15,21
company
41:17 173:7,10 189:15,17
225:2 270:13 327:6
compare
238:14
compared
193:3
compatibility
80:1
compensation
244:12
competence
75:5 76:19 77:15 82:2
competent
78:8 80:18
competitiveness
257:12,13 325:19
compilation
274:1 306:6
compile
236:16
compiled
199:1
complained
129:3
complaining
145:13
complete
136:14
completed
224:22
completely
14:12
completing
92:7
compliance
161:15 162:3 163:8

[comply - copyrighted]
comply
164:7 172:14 215:14
component
24:8 28:22 52:14 68:13
78:18 163:21 202:3
components
164:1
comprehensive
232:2 258:8
comprised
55:20 150:18
computer
224:10
computerized
334:8
concern
140:6,22 141:7,11 147:19
192:21 228:7
concerned
192:2 228:8
concerning
179:4,10
concerns
101:13,19 206:12
concluded
155:4 310:22 332:22
concludes
332:17
conditioning
1:8 10:21 216:1
conduct
25:20
conducted
151:11
conducting
152:9 172:11 287:15
conference
143:13,15,16 144:9 147:21
170:2 249:9 251:12,14
253:3,8,12
confidential
279:9
confirm
220:16
confirming
74:13
conform
130:1 135:1 172:14
conformance
128:10 130:22 281:18
conformity
74:5,9,15,18 75:2,6,8,14
75:18 76:2,12 78:22 79:4,9
82:10,11 83:17 84:4
294:21

confusion
196:1
congratulations
260:9
congress
27:17 93:21 96:6,12
109:19,19 110:5 178:12
219:20 252:3 255:6,9
287:11,17 307:1 313:10
316:22
congressional
73:20 213:13,18 214:4
215:13 246:21 247:11,12
255:21 257:4 285:12
287:18
congressmen
257:15,19 258:15
conjunction
303:19
connections
116:10
consecutive
66:22
consecutively
49:14
consensus
28:5 34:6,7,9,11,14,16
35:1,21 36:2,18 37:5 39:9
93:22 94:8 102:11 107:22
111:21 129:1,15 131:19
152:20 181:14 182:14
195:5 211:18,21 212:2
218:18 258:10 281:18
282:7 287:7,15 314:4
329:18
consider
95:7,10 286:1
consideration
36:10 131:6,14 166:5
considerations
57:13 89:2 90:15 101:22
166:5
considered
134:22 195:19 261:3
considers
131:17
consistent
152:19
consortia
35:4
constituencies
145:10
constituency
147:2
constitute
175:6

constitutes
272:17
construct
270:21
construction
248:21
consultant
307:8
consultation
178:10
consulted
175:18
consulting
179:2,8
consumer
36:12 38:13 41:18
consumers
272:13 273:13
contact
149:20 198:6 224:7 307:1
contacted
212:14
contacting
309:18
contacts
307:3,5
contain
284:4 309:10
contained
162:10 195:1
containing
200:14 224:12
content
128:14 138:6 198:2 224:12
contents
18:6 91:10 101:9 280:13
context
25:18 26:18,21 27:6 29:15
29:17 84:16,18 85:21
114:4,5 214:22 240:6
266:5
continue
10:12 97:2 215:15 248:11
continued
4:1 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1 253:2
continuous
161:15 162:3
contract
193:14
contractor
135:18,19
contractor's
216:1
contribute
59:12 285:8

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

contribution
312:15
contributions
188:8
control
227:12
convene
312:16
convened
214:20
conversation
17:3,12,18,20 18:1 259:2
conversations
10:8 261:7 268:1
conversing
233:14
cooper
184:5 230:21 231:15 248:2
248:5,7 251:9,16 254:13
268:14 291:2 299:2
coordinate
78:22
coordinating
26:22 304:20
coordination
23:13 26:16,19,22 105:5
139:15 149:15,18 253:20
coordinator
132:19
copied
200:22 224:7,10 232:16,17
copies
168:5 173:13 206:14
copy
19:16 50:1,17 128:18
167:6,18 173:7,11 174:17
175:15 224:6 242:22 245:4
278:4 297:5 298:21 302:21
copyright
6:10 88:11,22 89:6,7,9,11
89:14,21 90:7,12 101:13
101:19 173:12,16,19
175:19,20 178:2,11,12,17
179:3,3,9,9 180:19 181:11
181:12,15,20 182:3,8,13
205:21 206:6,21 207:10,11
208:4 221:6,7,11 224:1
246:10 248:10 252:10
271:20 272:2 307:22
309:16 314:16 317:12
319:10 321:16 327:13
copyrightability
178:18 321:11
copyrighted
88:12 89:10,17 166:2,22
173:5,7 176:11 206:19

[copyrighted - delivered]
copyrighted (cont.)
221:10 222:2 315:6 319:19
copyrighting
206:8
copyrights
315:20 317:22 318:7,20
319:4
corner
268:18 269:7,17,19 270:1
corporate
222:6
correct
14:12 20:10 21:3 33:3,4
36:3,4 43:2 52:18 57:1
73:9 101:14 102:8 112:7
118:15 120:2 151:6,12
162:4,8,17 163:8 180:11
188:2 191:13,17,18,22
192:1,4,8,9 193:1,10,11
194:12 196:8,19,20 200:1
200:2 202:12 204:17,18
205:8 206:10 207:12 208:4
208:5,9,10,13 211:19
212:17 215:19 216:2,4,12
218:1,2,8,10 220:8,21
224:14,15 230:9,10 233:11
233:12 234:6,7 236:10,18
237:20 302:11 303:4,5,11
307:11 321:7,8,21 323:11
324:15,19 325:12 326:3,12
326:21 328:17 329:22
333:4
corrected
187:6
correction
213:21 214:6 247:14
correspond
299:4
correspondence
187:9 191:11 259:12,16,19
corresponding
59:3,7
cost
217:7,10 313:21 323:10,16
324:11 325:4 328:6
costly
314:2
costs
323:13 324:2,14,15,17,21
325:7,10 326:1,20 328:3
council
51:21 127:13 180:9 204:21
counsel
4:21 10:16 11:13 12:16
17:4 20:8 181:3,6,7 253:15
291:4 293:15 310:8 311:11

counsel (cont.)
323:2 331:20 334:11,14
count
303:20
counter
207:9
counterclaimant
1:11 11:2
counterdefendants
1:9 10:22
countries
207:5 208:1,3,6,9
country
257:7
couple
19:7 44:13 56:6
course
38:16 129:8 156:9 157:5
158:9 159:2,6 172:9
186:11 324:10
court
1:1 11:3,10 12:10 13:9,11
116:15 277:13 301:9
cover
302:9
covered
78:19 116:4,8 134:20
covering
292:19
craft
190:2
crafted
261:14
craig
16:10,18 17:3,13,19,20
18:7,13,18 19:2,4,7 20:4
264:7 267:7
create
139:18 242:5,10,15 243:7
245:6 284:15
created
56:18 139:21 305:8
creating
187:1
creation
137:2,11 138:14 139:3
185:12
criteria
60:2
cross
201:8 287:2
crossing
267:4
currency
193:3

current
92:5,8 117:10 180:18
192:22 263:11,14,17,21
264:3 265:12 267:12 306:1
315:15
currently
20:19 42:10 127:9 211:16
220:1 261:21 305:10
cv
1:4 11:4
cycle
165:21
d
d.c.
1:15 2:13 3:8,18 11:7
daily
193:16
daniel
4:22 11:8
dar
1:4 11:4
data
50:2 194:10 198:18 246:14
246:17
database
119:10,20 120:5,9,12,16
120:22 121:3 135:11,17
136:22 137:1,13,16,18
138:5,16 139:3,5,16
184:20,22 186:5 187:2,5
191:16,21 192:22 193:4,10
193:18 194:4,11 195:1,3
198:12 201:1,16 202:16,20
203:4,11 225:4
date
181:6 184:14 195:2 199:17
227:7 228:5,10 231:5
237:5 238:11 253:2 292:18
dated
5:9,11 6:6,15,17 7:2,6,8,10
7:12,15,17,19,21 9:20 92:9
228:17
dates
49:1 67:14 227:4 248:18
day
172:11 193:8,8,19 194:4
333:16
days
167:21
deadline
241:6,8 274:11
deal
29:7 162:14
dealing
49:16

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

dear
251:21
debate
226:15
december
24:2,6 71:16,18 239:7
decision
98:15,21 99:13 113:9,17
115:7 138:15,19,22 139:17
139:19 198:4 200:1 277:14
278:7
decisionmakers
99:20
decisionmaking
54:2
decisions
54:7 57:14 68:22 72:9,11
72:15
declaratory
260:16 276:13
declare
333:2
declined
130:14
deemed
320:20
deems
164:5
defendant
1:11 10:16 11:2 12:16
323:2
defense
201:22 202:1,4
deferred
92:6
define
25:17 169:14
defined
34:10 87:17 244:15 272:7
defines
163:5
definition
26:2,3,5,13 161:7,10,20
162:7 244:16 272:8 286:8
286:10,12,17
definitions
25:19 26:6,7
delegated
21:22
deliberated
124:10
deliberations
17:10 249:16 264:8 265:16
265:22
delivered
302:3

[demonstrated - discussion]
demonstrated
80:17
demonstrating
77:15
demonstration
76:19
dent
123:15
department
16:12 21:19 23:22 25:4
48:10 71:15 72:2 73:7
169:9 187:21 198:15 201:1
201:2,22,22 202:4 212:12
214:3,14,18 215:4,11
246:3,21 247:10 249:3
305:4
departments
73:8 198:16
department's
320:1
depending
25:18 36:9 37:2 38:12
108:5 164:3
depends
37:17 38:5,6,14,21 109:17
109:22 164:10
deposition
1:14 2:9 5:8 10:11,15 11:5
12:19 13:3 14:15 15:4,13
16:2,14 17:21 20:1 116:18
116:22 118:19 149:22
156:16 157:10 160:16
164:12 165:5 179:12
190:14 204:1 205:10
229:15 230:11 232:7 235:2
237:6,22 240:15 245:12
247:16 250:14,16 256:8
259:3 268:6 271:9 278:21
280:5 288:9 289:6,20
290:14 291:13 292:8 293:8
294:12 295:8 296:2,19
297:18 298:13 299:15
300:9 301:20 334:4,6,9,12
depository
147:3 243:1
deputy
23:19
derived
83:4
describe
200:12
described
27:17 35:12 175:2
describes
251:10

describing
200:17 284:22
description
132:1 281:14 303:13
designated
133:3,18 134:3 136:11
desist
216:10 260:18
despite
106:21
detail
26:12
details
44:8 84:10 90:13 103:8
229:9 331:6
determinant
327:15
determination
200:10 210:14
determine
213:11
determined
77:14 153:8
determining
75:5
detriments
113:19 114:9
develop
29:19 30:5,7,8,15 41:5
42:8 56:19 122:4 218:7
219:14 313:22 316:14
323:11,14 324:3 327:8
developed
28:4 31:17,20 32:4,5 34:20
35:1 39:9 58:22 59:5
120:13 122:3 127:16 134:9
139:12 143:16 156:13
159:5 211:17,22 220:7,12
247:13 252:1 287:14
developers
150:13 260:21 314:13
developing
28:7 57:10 122:1 127:21
128:12 129:22 130:19,20
131:1,9 132:4 138:4
140:13 153:11 210:3,15
217:16 218:18 269:11
304:19 312:15 318:8 319:5
324:7 325:3 329:3 331:3
development
32:13,16,18 33:5,13,18,22
34:2,5 36:18 37:5,10,18
38:10,22 39:3,11,16 40:3
40:14 41:7,16 42:4 44:10
45:20 47:3 52:4 71:7 82:9
82:15 103:5,17 104:9,16

development (cont.)
104:21 105:8,12,17,21
106:6,13,17,22 107:5
121:16 129:18 132:2
135:21 144:12 152:2,11,13
152:22 153:3 154:12,17
155:9 166:10 168:12 179:2
181:11 202:8 209:10
210:10 221:8 234:5 257:7
258:9 269:22 305:10
311:22 312:1,6,11,19
313:4 314:3,7,8,17 315:3
315:16,19 316:7 318:1
323:20 324:2 325:1,12
326:2,9,21 327:20 328:3
330:15 331:11
developments
6:12 51:8 79:5 206:1
216:15,19 261:19 312:12
develops
100:20
devoting
130:8
dialogue
210:22
differ
37:1
difference
26:8 97:3 109:7 160:14
163:11
different
34:19 35:6,18 44:5 46:7
68:16 109:12 114:17
122:16,19 124:19 130:9
137:16 141:21 147:4 155:5
170:11 172:1 224:10
272:22 274:13 282:20
differentiations
115:1
differs
110:6 113:3
difficult
29:21
difficulty
129:3
digital
242:5,10,15 243:7,22
244:5,20
dimensions
162:13 223:16
direct
72:14 98:8 284:10 319:4
330:17,17
directed
93:21 110:5 318:7

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

direction
45:21 109:19 218:20
219:19,21 287:17 316:22
334:9
directions
78:20
directly
48:16,19 68:20 72:20
86:12 87:2 106:5 145:19
244:4
director
21:11 22:7 23:5,9,12 64:4
64:22 65:6 67:9,14,17 68:6
68:13 72:12,18,19 138:20
149:17 260:12
directors
68:19 118:2 179:20 204:10
204:12 230:6 252:6 290:7
291:22 292:18 294:4
295:18 296:12 298:5 300:3
300:19
directs
28:3 39:7,10 45:18 78:21
79:19 152:18 218:16
287:13
disabled
223:4,10 224:8
disclaimer
72:7
disclosure
71:15 72:1,4
discount
154:14 272:17 273:7
discounts
272:12 273:13
discovery
119:7 187:16
discuss
35:15 53:7 113:18 114:8
125:8 167:2,11 214:20
255:22 265:4,22 267:7
discussed
61:15 101:7 105:20 107:2
107:4,9 124:11 157:3
180:8 181:10 184:5 205:6
212:10 282:13 301:7,11,16
301:18 304:22 307:17
discusses
215:19 216:21 223:15
discussing
165:5 230:8 257:1
discussion
9:6 17:6 18:11 51:19 85:3
90:14 139:8 144:5,12
155:4,22 169:22 188:16
204:17 246:20 256:1

[discussion - electrical]
discussion (cont.)
293:17 297:6 305:17 319:8
discussions
53:22 122:10 143:12,18
147:20 264:17 271:18
319:12
dispute
127:18 128:7 329:17
disputes
128:6
distinction
95:21 122:14 193:21
201:19 266:3,16
distribute
198:14
distributed
198:10 325:7 328:8
distribution
309:18
district
1:1,2 11:3,3 334:21
divide
242:5,10,16 243:8,22
244:5,20 245:6,10
division
16:12 24:7,19,22 49:4,9
74:16 82:5 135:19 149:14
149:17 185:7
doc
264:21 266:10,18,21
docs
246:10
doctrine
176:4,6,8,20,22
document
15:9,11 16:7,8,9,14 27:11
35:16 87:8,9 89:17,17 90:5
91:22 95:2,8 98:16 101:10
117:5,7,9,12 119:2,4,6
138:7 150:5,7,9 151:8
156:21 157:1 158:22
159:11 161:2,5 162:11
164:17,20,22 165:1 172:21
173:7,11,13 174:1,11,16
175:4 176:11 179:17 180:3
191:5,7 201:22 204:6,7
205:15,17,19 229:20,22
230:2,16,18 232:12,14
235:9,14,19 236:1,4,15
237:5,12,14,17 238:5
240:20,22 242:8 245:17,20
245:22 247:21 254:13
256:13 259:8 268:11
271:14 279:4,7,8 288:14
288:16 289:11,13 290:3,5
290:19,21 291:18,20 292:3

document (cont.)
292:13,15 293:21 294:1,6
294:18 295:13,15,21 296:7
296:9,16 297:2,4,15 298:1
298:3,18,20 299:4,20,22
300:6,14,16,22 301:5
305:15 306:10,13 307:6
308:1 309:13,18 310:3,7
310:11,13 331:5
documentary
27:2,7,9
documentation
147:5
documents
26:12 31:6 56:11,12,13
57:18 59:10 79:8 88:12
89:10 92:17,21 93:15,19
93:20 94:2,3,5,21 95:14
97:4,9,13,17 98:2,6,10
100:7 107:13 109:10 114:3
121:16 122:9 128:19 138:9
140:19 160:15 166:13,19
167:12,19 168:16 172:16
173:5 184:5 187:16,17,20
191:1,2 192:12,16,17
201:12 206:19 208:19
209:6 213:8 240:8 243:3
244:9 251:3 277:9,16,18
277:21 302:6,8,14,19
303:14,17,18 304:1,3
307:17 308:2 313:15 315:6
327:22 328:3
doing
23:17 260:8 273:21 321:19
322:3
domestic
325:18
dominance
129:9,11,12,14 130:3,8
329:16
dot
213:7,10 214:3,9 246:8,14
246:17 248:18 305:7,22
dot's
198:15
doubt
253:11
download
320:20
draft
5:13,16 6:3,8,13 8:4,7,9,14
8:16,18,21 9:2,3,9,15,17
56:10,11,12,16 57:14,18
58:1,12,19 59:18 60:3,3,8
60:21 61:2 98:22 131:5,5
131:14 150:10 155:21

draft (cont.)
157:2,4,7 160:10,12
179:18 237:1,17,18 238:7
239:2,17 261:14,16 262:5
262:7 263:6 272:1 288:17
289:1,14 290:6 291:21
294:2,19 295:4,16 296:10
298:4 300:1,17 307:21
drafted
91:5
drafting
278:17 330:22
drafts
56:21 58:21 59:5 60:15
90:22
dramatically
263:11,15,17 264:4 265:12
267:13
drug
81:22
due
34:14 36:2 128:22 202:17
228:9
dues
44:8 45:3,7,10 154:7
duly
12:13 334:6
duplicating
172:20 173:22 174:10
dying
111:17
e
e.g.
208:17
e50
44:15 53:12 56:4 61:6
121:1,7,19 122:4
e60
56:7,9 57:2,9,10 58:1,10
58:22 59:3 60:14,19,22
61:3,5
earlier
45:17 48:7 53:14 58:5 60:9
65:2,16 68:15 101:7 114:3
116:2 118:2 124:18 127:8
128:20 136:8 139:14
152:16 159:12 161:6,12
165:5 173:4 184:18 193:13
200:5,16,21 212:10 219:6
228:14 246:19 248:16,16
248:19 249:4 250:2 272:22
276:12 329:20
earliest
257:8 259:22 271:16

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

early
46:21 184:18 287:11,12
easier
23:16 217:5,8,19 219:7
easy
57:20
eat
257:16
economic
100:2
economics
60:7
economist
24:16
edicts
178:19
edition
195:2,6,13,20 196:4
197:12,19 198:7 199:7,8
199:11,13,14,17 200:6,8
229:5
educate
285:20
education
51:17,17 52:6,14,15,15,16
52:19,20 53:2,4 306:11
educational
286:9,13,18
effect
87:11,16 177:1 239:13,22
effects
247:4
efficiency
88:9 101:13,19
effort
56:19
efforts
130:2 151:22 166:16
261:11 281:17
eight
156:4 183:5,6 208:6
either
37:20 53:5 80:6 107:4
135:2 137:5 158:19 208:1
220:19 222:1 245:2 246:9
251:2 261:16 279:14
293:17 319:9 325:18
330:16
elected
55:3 68:20
election
54:21 63:16,21
electric
199:6
electrical
32:22

[electro - exhibit]
electro
189:18
electromagnetic
79:22
electronic
59:10 167:21 168:4 209:2
electronics
32:22 189:15,17,18
electrotechnical
41:3 51:7
elements
251:10
elimination
210:15
elizabeth
248:2,4 274:6
embarking
29:3
emily
248:9 249:6,7,11,12,13,15
249:17,19 250:8 251:7,9
emily's
250:4,6
employed
22:15,21 23:3 44:2 106:17
189:16 334:12,14
employee
22:20 45:14 46:2,15,18
54:8 92:13 93:3,7,10,13
125:20 148:4,14 153:6
186:11 332:8 334:13
employees
40:9,11 45:19 55:12 153:2
153:15 325:11 326:2
330:11 331:10
employer
189:14
employment
21:8 22:12 23:8,15 24:11
25:3 70:13 71:14 311:18
emulates
128:11
enable
215:15 323:19
enables
314:3
enacted
227:11
encompass
244:17 272:9
encourage
79:8 218:4
endeavor
314:2
endorsed
274:17

ends
160:22
energy
80:2
enforce
283:1,3,4,8,19,21 284:1,6
284:11
enforcement
170:13 177:9 283:16 284:3
enforcing
283:13
engage
30:12 74:14,19 105:6
126:2 155:12 190:1,13
308:6,7
engaged
19:8 48:17,20 63:2 168:17
190:6
engagement
9:12 49:5 62:1 63:4,11
180:6 204:16 298:22
engagements
105:7
engages
34:3 71:6 166:21
engaging
72:3
engineer
189:20
engineering
52:14
engineers
1:8 10:21 33:1 172:15
ensure
130:2 166:12,18 168:22
172:17 215:13
ensuring
52:10 172:13 329:16,16
entire
27:20 89:16 132:17 174:16
305:15 328:7
entities
127:14
entitled
291:1 292:16 297:6 298:22
entity
22:16 90:6 149:1,9
entries
194:22
enumerate
42:10
environment
312:22
environmental
31:20 44:18 49:16 260:5

epa
31:18 32:3,10 80:2,9
epa's
80:2
err
267:6
error
196:14
errors
192:3,7 200:18
especially
166:2 184:9 258:13
esq
3:4,5,15 4:3,4,12
essential
38:9 52:2,3 127:17 128:11
128:16,19,21 129:9 130:1
131:2,18 329:9
essentially
59:2
established
78:6 133:13 150:17
establishing
75:1
estimate
80:14 83:9 91:14 187:12
187:13
et
15:18 277:11 323:19
eula
226:13
european
25:10 29:2,3,5,7,11,12
51:9
evaluate
59:19
evaluated
80:8 82:1
evening
256:20
event
61:10,13 212:19 255:20
256:2,3 285:7 286:22
events
285:2,4,11,13
everett
4:20 12:9,9
ex
65:5 68:18
exact
189:6
exactly
125:2 158:13 196:15
examination
5:2 12:16 311:11 323:2
331:20

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

example
77:18 135:3 148:10 198:21
198:22 199:1,11 272:10
274:19 285:4
examples
79:13 80:6 97:12 257:9
273:20 274:10,16 282:10
284:2
excel
200:14
excerpt
274:14 292:19
excerpts
292:1
exchange
116:8 186:22 248:19
exchanged
305:9
exchanges
184:17 185:4 186:3 187:14
excluding
242:6,10,16 243:8
exclusion
264:6
exclusively
162:14
excuse
86:18 97:21 130:12 136:13
144:17 158:20 195:11
210:9 232:19 236:21
243:17 249:18 251:8
257:11 280:19 281:13
285:15 308:1,21 309:5
328:13
executed
333:6
executive
51:21 64:4 93:18 123:13
123:19,21 124:1,4,5,7,12
127:11,13 179:18 183:21
260:5 292:17 293:18 294:3
295:17 296:11 298:4 299:2
300:1,17
executives
150:18 200:13
exhibit
5:7,9,10,11,13,16,19,21
6:2,3,6,8,10,13,15,17,19
7:2,3,6,8,10,12,14,15,17
7:19,21 8:2,4,7,9,11,14,16
8:18,21 9:2,3,6,9,12,15,17
9:20 15:3,4,8 16:1,2,6
20:10 116:21,22 117:4
118:19 119:1,12 123:7,8
124:16 149:22 150:4 154:1
156:16,20 157:10,16 158:8

[exhibit - filings]
exhibit (cont.)
158:19,19,22 159:9 160:10
160:11,16,20 164:12,16
165:9 177:16 179:12,15
190:14 191:4 204:1,5
205:10,14 229:15,19
230:11,15 232:7,11 234:9
234:9,13 235:2,6,16 236:7
237:1,2,6,10,22 238:4,8,14
238:15,17 240:15,19
245:12,16 247:16,20
250:14,16,20,21 252:11
255:18 256:8,12 259:3,7
268:6,10 271:9,13 276:7
278:21 279:3 280:5,9
288:9,13 289:6,10,20
290:2,14,18 291:13,17
292:8,12 293:8,20 294:8
294:12,16 295:8,12 296:2
296:6,14,19 297:1,15,18
297:22 298:9,13,17 299:6
299:8,15,19 300:9,13
301:20 302:15,19 332:1,4
332:10
exhibits
5:7 6:1 7:1 8:1 9:1
existed
194:19
existence
121:3 218:1 287:18,19
existing
324:22
expanding
63:1
expectation
58:7
expense
323:20 325:20
experience
54:5 98:8 153:5 221:14
327:19 329:8
experienced
54:17
expertise
55:2 63:13 64:15 84:11
112:19
experts
35:14 175:19
expires
333:19 334:22
explain
190:3 200:3 218:12
explaining
186:22
express
321:9

expressed
27:16
expressing
147:18
extended
239:20 240:12 241:7
extensive
79:3 90:14 101:22 139:8
147:19
extent
62:1 186:5
extenuating
176:14
externally
27:4
eye
2:12 11:6
f
faa
303:4,9
face
279:7
faced
206:20,21
facilitation
226:7
facilities
72:22
fact
146:22 170:19 202:17
203:5 239:4,10 241:6
275:16 286:21 287:20,22
288:4 309:15 310:9,10
313:16,21 314:1,15,21
factor
138:15 219:1
fair
176:3,6,7,12,13,20,21
fall
70:11 255:20
falls
264:5
familiar
15:17 28:17 77:18 84:21
85:3 93:20 95:18 96:3
211:13 314:11 318:5,10,16
327:3,5
favor
257:19 287:7
fcc
80:6,9
fcc's
79:21
fda
78:5,8 80:19 82:6 84:2

feasible
79:10 213:12,14,19
features
285:5
february
21:15 22:11 182:19 211:5
232:19 233:17
fed
192:11,11
federal
9:12 21:14 22:20 27:4 28:3
30:8 32:19 37:9 39:8 45:18
73:17,18,18 78:21 79:8,18
85:10,15,21 86:2,4,14,14
87:18,19,21 89:17 91:2
94:1,9,12 96:2,3,3 100:21
102:11 107:21 109:12
111:21 129:5 135:13 136:7
136:21 137:4,20,22 140:2
150:19 151:22 152:4,6,7
152:12,18 153:2,14 154:4
155:1,8,12 164:18 165:2
167:5 168:16 180:5 182:20
183:2 186:11 187:19
193:15 194:18 195:18
201:10,11 203:10 204:15
211:6,11,13 217:4 218:17
219:20 220:2 227:5,13
233:18 234:2 238:20,20
248:19 261:15 262:17,20
272:5 283:18 287:13
298:22 303:10 304:7 316:4
316:12,22 317:3 318:13,17
319:15 326:11 331:6
federation
41:12
fee
3:4 5:4 12:2,2 32:7 36:19
37:7 38:20 39:20 43:16,22
45:15 46:8,12 58:3,13 59:1
59:16 77:4,10 78:3,16
79:17 81:3,7,10,13 82:13
82:21 83:22 84:8,15,19
86:9,22 87:14 88:4,16
89:22 90:9 94:18 95:3,9,16
96:10 97:6 98:19 99:17
100:11 105:15 106:15
107:19 108:19 110:13,20
112:8 119:16 120:10 122:5
134:4 137:14 141:5 142:20
145:16 146:2,11,19 147:16
148:7,18 152:14 153:4,17
154:20 155:14 156:2,11
158:11 163:19 168:7
169:17 170:17 171:7,15
172:6 173:2 174:4,13

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

fee (cont.)
175:8 176:9 177:5,12
178:14 186:20 190:10
193:22 197:14 209:21
213:4 215:9 217:12 218:9
218:14 219:4,17 221:19
222:8,16 223:5,11 225:19
226:4 227:22 228:12
234:11 235:17 236:2 240:3
242:13 243:11 244:1 245:8
249:22 250:11 254:3,10,19
255:12 258:22 261:5
262:22 265:19 266:7
267:14 270:10,19 271:6
272:20 273:9 275:12,19
276:3 279:6,11 283:7
284:9 286:6 291:9 292:5
309:21 310:5,16 311:1,12
312:8 313:1,19 314:14,22
315:10,17 316:2,17 317:8
317:19 318:9 319:6 320:2
320:16 321:4 322:2,7,20
323:5,6,15 324:20 325:14
326:6,15 327:1,11,17
328:5,19 329:6 330:2,13
331:1,13,18,22 332:12
feel
274:19 310:21
feels
246:8
fees
44:4,6 81:5 208:17 324:8
felt
247:1 312:5 313:12
fenwick
4:5 11:18
fenwick.com
4:8,9
fiduciary
54:9,12 69:11
field
189:18
figure
197:11
file
224:11
filed
11:2 71:14 72:1 211:7
233:19 260:16 276:17
277:6,10,10
files
302:20,21
filing
277:13
filings
278:10

[fill - getting]
fill
225:6,12
final
58:16 99:5,13 128:3 137:7
160:11 170:9,22 235:19,19
236:1,4,13 238:14,15
239:12
finalized
57:11
finally
170:22 202:13
financial
73:2 245:6,10
financially
334:15
find
128:18 132:6,8 198:7
217:6,9,20 325:19
finding
166:6 192:10
fine
279:19 281:10
fingertips
67:15 83:8 102:3
finish
331:4
fire
1:5 3:13 4:21 10:18 189:19
199:5 209:15 307:8
firm
11:9,11,18 190:1,7,13
302:10
first
12:13 28:16,19 29:13 47:6
48:1,19 90:20 91:15 116:5
123:16 124:10,10 180:22
220:11 241:15 242:2 248:4
248:18 252:5,12 256:18
259:10 268:13,21 318:5
323:8
five
202:14
flexible
166:3 214:3
floor
4:5
fly
245:3
focus
34:5
focused
52:16
focuses
51:17 304:5
foia
107:13 119:8 178:1

folks
214:5 246:22 305:22
follow
86:8,20 158:1 171:10
followed
159:15 313:17
following
17:16 22:20 30:3 46:6
47:12 68:7 92:3 158:12
171:18 177:21 180:17
207:22 227:2 242:1 253:1
272:2 304:13 309:10
follows
12:15 274:5 313:17
food
77:17 78:4,6 79:14 80:7,15
81:14,20,22 82:3 83:15
84:6,10
footnoted
244:13
fora
125:6
foregoing
333:3 334:4,6
foreign
206:22
forgoing
273:19
forgot
129:10
form
32:6 36:19 37:7 38:20
39:20 45:15 58:3,13 59:1
59:16 77:4,10 78:3 79:17
82:13,21 83:22 84:8,15
86:9,22 87:14 88:4,16
94:18 95:3,9,16 97:6 99:17
100:11 106:15 107:19
108:19 110:13,20 119:16
122:5 134:4,14 145:16
146:11,19 148:7 152:14
153:4,17 154:20 155:14
156:2,11 168:7 169:17
170:17 171:7,15 173:2
175:19 176:9 186:20
197:14 209:21 213:4 215:9
218:9 219:4 222:16 223:5
223:11 224:21 225:1,6,12
225:19 226:4 227:22
228:12 234:11 235:17
242:13 254:3,10 257:21
258:22 262:22 265:19
267:14 270:10,19 271:6
272:20 273:9 275:19 276:3
283:7 284:9 285:1 286:6
291:9 292:5 307:18 309:21

form (cont.)
310:5,16 312:3,13 313:6
314:10,19 315:7,13,21
316:9,20 317:18 318:2
319:1,21 320:14 321:1,22
322:5 323:15 324:20 326:6
326:14,15 327:1,11,17
328:5,19 329:5,6 330:2,13
331:1,13
format
199:21
forms
71:15 72:2,5 134:17
forth
51:10
forum
124:20,22 125:2,6,11,18
125:22 126:2,5,6,14,15,22
150:12 151:3 156:14
157:21,22
forums
118:14 124:15 125:6
forward
23:17 263:10,13
forwards
251:16
found
138:1 195:3 199:9
founder
184:7
four
66:1,2,8 187:13 208:8
fr
246:12 274:11
frame
49:5 57:7
fran
230:22 248:3 268:14
francisco
4:6
free
153:16 154:9,9,15 188:21
189:2,8 207:12 208:1,7,19
208:20 209:14,16,19
210:11 212:17 213:2,9
215:7 242:4,9 243:7,21
244:15 245:2 250:10 272:7
310:21 320:6,18
freedom
320:21
freely
207:9,15 246:10
french
307:7,10,10,15 308:10,16
frequently
127:4

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

friday
248:5 260:16 273:20
friday's
248:6
front
123:9 141:22 276:8 317:16
fronts
251:22 257:11
fulfill
228:16
full
90:5 102:4
fund
314:7 315:4,19 327:3,4
funding
314:17
further
124:9 183:9 188:3 231:8
247:15 273:17 323:2
331:20 334:12
future
52:10,20
g
gathered
302:14
gathering
302:18
general
4:20 16:11 17:4 36:12,21
37:11,14,19 38:3,11 40:5
97:8 141:7 142:11 146:15
147:10 148:10,11 176:5,19
181:3,5,7 192:16 207:19
221:21 253:15 265:13,15
278:5,5 291:4 293:14
305:21 310:8
generally
15:20 31:18 36:10 41:10
76:18,20 78:17 98:1 104:8
104:15 114:14 133:9
142:17 155:17 157:8
176:20 206:7 273:12,15
306:3 314:9
geneva
122:21
georgia
301:8
georgia's
301:9
gerald
4:12 11:21
gestures
13:16
getting
174:19 241:14

[gillerman - hat]
gillerman
253:5,17,18
give
14:2 30:18 47:19,21 97:12
135:5 148:9 191:8 198:21
274:18
given
109:20 129:19 156:3 195:2
220:19 224:22 231:5 232:1
264:20 266:9 271:21
274:16 313:9 332:18
334:10
gives
132:19
giving
13:7 14:22
global
49:2 325:18
globally
35:7 133:10 257:14
gmf
151:1,2
go
10:13 19:18 21:21 23:10
47:19 48:21 55:15 67:11
77:16 78:9 83:10 84:2 99:3
147:8 193:19,20 236:17
279:16 302:18
goal
217:5
goes
189:21 194:9 208:11
260:14 261:9
going
10:4 13:4 14:1 23:18 79:12
113:2 115:15,19 123:7
133:15 147:8 159:18,22
161:18 185:19 190:18
200:11 203:16,20 204:19
205:4,5 260:20 266:8,18
267:6 279:16,20 280:2
310:1 311:4,8
good
10:3 11:17 12:18 94:10
167:6 169:3 221:22 222:5
222:6 228:2,17 248:10
268:17 269:4 274:19 275:8
goods
25:9 28:22
gordon
253:4,17,18
gorman
64:3,9
gotten
71:10

griffin (cont.)
governance
101:16,20 102:18 103:13
183:9,20,21
104:4,13 105:2,14 106:2,9
governing
107:18 109:16 110:12,21
182:22 211:9 233:21
111:2,13,18 112:9 113:22
government
114:11,21 117:16,22
17:8,9 20:20 21:9 23:4
119:15 121:9 122:17
28:7 30:2,4,5,6,9,15,21,22
125:15,19 126:20 128:8
31:1,7,17 37:4,17 39:2,16
129:20 130:16 131:16
40:9,10 41:13,13 42:18
132:13 133:5,19 135:16
44:7 45:14 46:4,8,15 48:4
136:18 138:17 140:1,10
52:10 54:7 55:11 70:3,13
141:4 142:9,19 143:10
71:10,13 73:14,17,19 77:3
144:6,22 146:20 147:14
77:9 79:7 92:13 93:3,7,9
148:8,19 149:4,12 151:17
93:13 118:10,11,13 125:3
153:18 154:19 155:15
125:4,10,11,12,18,21,22
157:14,17 158:10 159:3
126:3,14,22 148:4,14
163:18 169:2,8,16 170:16
150:12,21 151:2,4 154:17
171:8,16 172:5 173:1,17
157:21,22 158:4 166:17
174:3,14 175:7,22 177:4
178:11,19 181:13 182:13
177:11 178:20 181:1,2,3,9
186:11 187:20 188:1
182:5,9 183:7,17 186:9,19
192:19 208:18 209:5 218:7
194:16 195:15 200:20
219:14 232:3,5 261:11
209:22 213:3 215:8 217:11
264:8 265:22 268:2 281:3
218:13 219:3,16 221:5,18
281:19 286:20 291:3
222:15 225:8 227:21
306:20 309:19 316:4
228:11 229:7 230:22
317:15,21 320:10,17 326:4
231:18 237:3 238:9 242:12
326:7 327:5 330:11 332:8
243:10 245:7 246:2 248:3
governments
254:2,9,18 255:11 256:6
326:1 331:9
257:3,21 258:17,21 260:1
government's
260:7 261:9 262:3,19,21
218:5 219:12
264:12,19 265:4,6,18
governors
266:6,8,13,17 267:3
61:22 62:6,21 63:9,13,15
268:15 270:9,18 271:5,17
63:18,18,22 64:11
272:19 273:8,18 275:3,11
grants
275:18 276:2,12 278:12
73:1
279:13 280:18 281:6 282:8
grateful
282:11 283:6 284:8 286:5
273:19
287:9 288:7 291:4 293:15
great
297:8 301:14,17 304:16
19:20 52:8 117:20
305:14,18 307:18 308:3,12
greater
309:2 323:1 325:13 326:5
155:8 281:17 282:6
326:14,22 327:18 328:4,18
griffin
329:5 330:1,7,12 331:12
4:12,17 11:21,21 19:17,21
332:14
20:7,10 25:15 26:9 28:12
group
28:14 30:17 31:12 32:6
44:17 66:5,7 121:21 122:8
33:7,19 34:17 39:4,19 41:8
123:4 180:19 181:11,16,20
41:21 43:3,18 45:5 47:16
181:21,22 182:3,8 211:7
48:5 49:21 50:7,12 52:22
231:2,3,10 233:19 234:4
54:4 58:2,14 59:20 61:19
234:19,22 241:20 256:19
62:17 64:12,21 65:11 69:1
256:21,22 257:2 271:20
69:20 73:11 78:2,15 79:16
272:2 308:6
83:21 84:20 87:13 88:5,17
90:10 91:7,11,16,21 92:14 groups
123:3 181:18,19
94:19 95:4,17 96:1 98:13
98:18 99:16 100:10,19
[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

growing
52:12
gsa
192:16 201:11
guard
202:3 252:9
guardian
206:16 216:10
guess
45:1 113:2 200:11 227:19
228:1 246:13,16
guessing
289:4
guidance
86:8 108:20 109:13,15
115:8 303:17
guidelines
40:2
h
half
149:19
handbook
6:2 85:1,8,12 86:11,21
87:17 88:7 89:1 90:17,19
91:1,4,10,15,20 92:1,2,9
92:11,20 93:3,6,8,13,17
94:6 95:7,11 164:18 165:1
165:4 175:2 319:3
handed
117:3 118:22 150:3 159:9
160:19 164:15 179:15
191:3 205:13 229:18
230:14 232:10 235:5 237:9
238:3 240:18 245:15
247:19 250:19 256:11
259:6 268:9 271:12 279:2
280:8 289:9 290:1,17
291:16 292:11 293:19
294:15 295:11 296:5,22
297:21 298:16 299:18
300:12 302:1
handing
15:7 16:5 156:19 204:4
288:12
handwriting
304:11
happened
135:15 139:4
happy
49:22 50:13
hard
116:17 167:18 200:22
232:16 242:22 302:21
hat
67:4

[hazardous - incorporating]
hazardous
212:13 214:19 305:6
head
50:2,9 53:20 55:18 69:22
80:13 111:11 132:16
149:15
headquartered
122:21
heads
188:6
health
29:8 71:7 73:1 133:12
199:3 252:7 312:22
hear
106:5
heard
35:12 53:19 141:15 142:5
142:11,15,16,21 143:3,7
144:15,18 145:3,12 146:7
176:19 258:3 269:7
hearing
212:20
heating
1:7 10:20
heavily
60:5
held
2:9 11:5 21:4,6 23:2 25:6
49:20 50:6 64:17 117:21
215:1 249:3
help
190:1 312:21
helps
228:16
henry
17:3,21 18:9 19:2 253:4,14
253:15 264:6
hereto
227:12 334:15
hi
260:7 274:6
hierarchy
75:1
high
38:8 93:20 105:6 264:17
highlighted
35:3 274:9
hill
246:15,18 254:21 255:2,3
285:2 286:22
historically
167:15
hit
111:13
hold
22:6,12 24:3 118:18

hold (cont.)
234:12
home
324:9,10
hope
260:8
hosting
61:10
hosts
285:5
hotel
324:15
hour
111:14
house
7:14 27:5 252:12 306:15
306:17,18 307:4
housed
245:5
houses
85:10,20
howard
20:16
hr
185:13
hue
287:16
huh
217:1
human
73:2,7
i
ibr
6:2 86:10,11 87:17 95:7,10
136:4 137:11,17 138:8,14
139:3,12,18,21 140:7,22
164:17 165:1,4,12 168:15
171:14 175:2 205:8 207:5
208:4,12,16 210:18 211:1
216:21 217:6,9,13,22
219:1,22 220:6,10 223:3
223:10 224:18,19 225:7,13
226:17 227:16 229:3 234:1
236:9 251:12,14,22 252:2
252:9 254:1,17 255:20
256:3,16 258:5 260:19
304:2,4,5 306:2 319:3
ice
232:3
icsp
150:14,15 159:7,14
idea
176:5 226:22 308:13,18
identification
15:5 16:3 117:1 118:20

identification (cont.)
150:1 156:17 157:11
160:17 164:13 179:13
190:15 204:2 205:11
229:16 230:12 232:8 235:3
237:7 238:1,11 240:16
245:13 247:17 250:15,17
256:9 259:4 268:7 271:10
278:22 280:6 288:10 289:7
289:21 290:15 291:14
292:9 293:9 294:13 295:9
296:3,20 297:19 298:14
299:16 300:10 301:21
identified
138:6 193:9 194:5 196:6
199:10,22 202:14,16 203:5
203:12
identify
109:1,6,14 174:21 193:16
194:2 312:9
identifying
109:13
iec
140:17,18 217:17 220:8,13
ieee
33:3 46:14,16 61:18,21
62:2,5,8,11,20 63:2,9,15
63:20 64:8,11
immediately
21:8 23:8 24:12 25:3 92:4
165:17
impermissible
310:4
implement
247:11
implementation
52:3 134:6,12,15,18
implemented
164:11 186:12,18
implementing
150:20 172:13
implications
181:13 182:13
importance
248:10 309:15
important
188:20 218:3 313:3
importantly
88:11,21
improving
185:2
inaccurate
301:4 306:22 308:5
include
36:11,12,13 38:13,17
52:13 94:13 119:20 138:5

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

include (cont.)
152:10 162:14 164:4,8
171:5 172:12,20 173:22
174:10 220:6,12,20 221:4
227:2 243:17 244:11
256:21 274:20 275:9
285:17 287:5 315:18
324:14 330:10,21
included
101:12 120:15 193:17
194:3,5 227:16,18,20
274:14 305:2
includes
34:12 35:22 41:15 42:4
108:14 158:14 159:13
160:12 242:20 331:2
including
35:2 53:8 71:6 96:17
108:10 142:2 157:13 163:6
181:11 184:5 217:17
274:10 320:19 323:17
incorporate
85:13 98:16 115:10 137:4
139:10 167:1 177:20
197:13 211:10 228:14
233:22 283:5,9,22
incorporated
8:11 10:19 11:1 87:20
94:11 95:15 97:5,10,13,16
97:18 98:2,7,10 99:7,12,14
100:7 101:10 103:6,18
104:11,18,22 106:1,8,14
109:11 129:4 135:11 136:6
137:1,16,18 138:9 140:7
141:1,17 142:6,16 143:4,8
144:19 145:7,14 146:9,17
147:12 148:6,16 149:2,10
163:16 165:12,20 166:11
166:13,19 167:7,12 168:6
169:1,21 171:4 172:3,21
173:22 174:1,11,17,22
175:4,20 177:2,9 183:1
184:9,20 186:4 187:2
189:7 193:17 194:3,10
195:13 197:20 198:8,11
199:2 202:10 205:5 207:4
207:7 208:2,8 209:4
210:12 212:15 213:1 215:5
217:4 219:8 272:16 273:6
273:21 283:14,20 284:5,7
291:1 304:6 316:6 318:15
319:11 320:7 321:12
incorporates
195:11
incorporating
87:8 89:4 90:16 95:12

[incorporating - issue]
incorporating (cont.)
102:2 112:22 113:7,13
137:21 197:21 198:4 229:4
282:13
incorporation
6:11,20 7:4 84:14 85:1,2,4
85:7,11 87:5,7,11,16 88:2
89:12,15,19 94:16 101:8
102:15 103:3,22 107:3,8
107:11,16 108:10,14 109:8
109:9 110:10 111:10 112:5
112:14 113:19 114:9 115:4
134:1,14 135:8,22 136:2
136:10,16,20 143:17
178:13 179:4,10 181:13
182:14 199:15,18 201:9
205:7,22 214:21 235:11
241:9 263:19 288:2,6
317:11 318:19,21 319:16
319:19 321:17
incorporations
135:13
incorrect
116:3 160:6 187:5
increase
284:17
independent
238:20
independently
220:16
index
193:5
india
207:2
indirectly
106:6
individual
30:8,12,14 35:14 37:9,20
38:7 40:1 115:13 135:3
142:12 145:6,13,20 146:7
146:8,16 147:11,18 154:13
155:18 166:20 168:9 173:6
173:11 179:8 193:14
194:17 200:1 270:21 303:9
306:19 314:13 322:9,13,17
individuals
67:20 123:22 143:20 173:5
173:9 228:2 259:13 270:5
309:19 324:1 325:8 329:3
industries
172:8
industry
38:15,17 129:17 133:2,13
133:17 172:7 313:5
influencing
258:14

inform
254:21
information
51:3 53:2 72:8 73:4 83:6
92:12 94:15 102:20 125:9
125:13 135:12 179:7
184:21 185:1,2 193:3
200:9 204:17 210:20
217:18 221:10 222:2 225:2
225:3,16 226:2,8,9 228:3
231:7 250:13 264:12,15
265:17 266:1,5,22 267:1
269:12 280:15 285:14
286:21 288:1,5 302:22
305:9,21 309:15 319:13
320:21
informational
285:11 307:2
infrastructure
285:10 314:3 323:17,18,19
infringement
6:10 90:8 205:22 206:6
initial
56:19 199:1
initially
47:15 247:3
initiative
261:13
innovation
252:7 285:9
innovations
257:14
input
35:16,17 91:9 100:6 103:4
183:9 231:7 248:20,22
261:15 293:15
inserting
239:1,5
insight
257:22
inspection
74:12 75:11
instance
76:1 103:1 104:9,20
105:17 130:11,13 145:5
148:3,13 202:21 322:8,11
322:12,16
instances
69:8 75:17 103:12,16
104:16 111:8,12 129:2
168:20 169:7 192:6,6
195:9 258:11 283:12
institute
17:5 20:21 21:1,12,18 22:5
24:9 32:22 42:17,19 114:1
114:22 136:20 190:12

institute (cont.)
209:13 312:5 313:8,10,12
320:8
institutions
326:19
instruct
264:19 266:9
instructed
308:16
instructions
85:12,17,22 86:6,6,12,18
86:20 88:7 102:10
instrumentation
70:20 71:4
insurance
135:5
intellectual
181:17,22 183:12
intended
193:5 196:18,22 197:13
198:8 199:16 219:22
intends
167:1 217:2
intent
36:13 199:19 215:14
intention
175:12
interactions
179:6 317:3
interagency
150:11,15 151:14 157:19
158:2,4,15
interest
36:6,8,10,12,13 37:12,15
37:19 38:3,13 52:8 57:17
62:22 129:13,14 130:5,6
263:9 264:2 265:11 267:12
278:5 324:4 325:16 330:18
interested
36:7 37:1 53:5 109:1,6
167:16 168:14 217:6,9,19
244:10 313:13 325:8
329:13 334:15
interesting
276:15,21
interests
36:15 38:11,13,15,19
39:13,18 40:19 58:6,7,8
76:22 125:8 313:3
interfere
10:10
interference
10:8
interior
201:2

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

interior's
198:16
internal
17:9,9 29:4 99:19,21 264:7
265:15,22 282:16
internally
27:1 282:15
international
1:4 3:3 10:18 23:21 24:14
24:15 25:5,7,8 26:2 28:20
29:1 32:20 34:21 41:1,3,4
41:5 43:12 47:10 49:11
50:21,21 51:1,4,5,7,10
55:1 63:2,4 65:2 74:22
75:15 118:9 121:21 122:20
132:1 178:2 311:11 319:13
331:21
internet
206:8,13 213:9 217:7,10
222:14 242:6,11,16,21
243:2,8
interpret
166:3
interpretation
199:19
inventory
199:2
invited
61:9,12 285:12
involve
62:15 100:18 324:17
involved
12:21 29:4,14,16 47:6,14
48:2,3 49:8 269:22 284:19
319:8,12
involvement
61:14 65:9 221:1 278:16
278:19
involving
157:22
ipc
65:7 123:16
iprpc
183:8,11,15 236:18 271:19
irresponsible
197:2,4
ise
69:6
iso
26:14 44:17 69:6 75:4
122:3,8,10,13 123:2
140:17,18 161:19 217:17
220:8,13
issue
38:7 96:5 188:21 189:3
207:21 227:9 244:5 246:12

[issue - level]
issue (cont.)
247:8,14 255:10 261:21
263:10 274:12 315:20
319:9 320:12 332:5
issued
91:15 278:9
issues
51:15 54:9 60:6,10 66:5
102:21 107:1 170:14
178:13 179:3,10 206:20,21
246:12,12,13 251:22 254:1
258:6 271:21 284:19
issuing
201:14,20
item
180:5,18 298:11 301:2
items
54:9,9,12 230:4 292:1,20
293:16 295:7
j
jane
3:5 12:4
jane.wise
3:11
january
25:5 139:8 257:4
jillavenkatese
253:5,6,19
jim
55:8 189:10
job
1:21 71:17,20 72:3,17
185:12 324:18
joe
251:17,18,19,21 256:19
257:5,17 258:3,11,20
joe's
258:1
joint
150:8,10 157:18,20 159:13
159:15 160:10 294:20
judgment
260:16 276:13
judiciary
306:18
judy
64:3,9
july
6:2 24:15 25:2 47:11,13
48:2,8 164:18 252:8,10
298:6 299:3 300:3
june
241:7 251:7 273:20 334:22
justification
212:21

k

l

keep
216:18
keeping
73:19 216:15
kevin
3:4 12:2
kevin.fee
3:10
kind
49:7 56:13 95:14 97:4
128:6 155:11 202:7
knew
265:21
know
13:21 14:3,7,12 25:13
26:10 31:13,16,22 32:3
44:4,20 64:1,9 66:17 70:8
71:19 77:12,22 79:15
80:11 81:7 82:20 83:3
84:13 90:19,22 91:4,9 95:5
98:9 116:17 126:12 138:18
139:21 148:13 155:1,16
161:2 168:8,10 174:18
176:3,6,7,13,20 178:6
181:5 182:12 183:3,19
184:16 185:4,15 186:7
188:11 189:2 190:6,11,12
192:14 197:16 203:4
207:14 209:9,18 210:8
212:21 221:20 223:1,6,17
225:5,11,14,15,15 226:1,8
226:9,20 227:15 228:4
229:8,9 231:3,14 235:18
240:11 241:10,16,18,21
248:13 249:11,12 250:8,13
251:13 253:22 254:4,12,13
254:22 255:13 256:3,22
259:1 261:19,22 262:11,17
263:1 264:13,16 265:3
266:12,15,21 267:16 268:3
268:5,19,21 269:13,21
270:22 274:22 275:13,20
277:2 279:15 286:15
305:17 308:15 317:20
318:17
knowledge
53:8 82:19 106:3,10
133:20 148:20 156:1 209:7
210:2 213:20 223:13
225:20 227:17 275:5
278:14 280:17 284:11
301:6 331:14 332:8
known
21:13 184:13 249:13
267:10,21

lab
75:10
labeled
165:17 252:14
labeling
162:16
labor
36:13 38:13
laboratories
79:22
laboratory
81:2
lack
129:9,11,12,13 130:3,7
329:16
laid
38:8
language
196:15 263:7
large
29:5 30:7 52:9 65:1,6 67:9
67:14,17,18 68:6,19 210:5
273:12 313:13 325:7
larger
130:5
largest
313:13
late
255:20
latest
193:4 263:6
latin
61:11
law
8:12 11:18 13:9 39:10 46:1
77:3,9,12 84:18 88:13 90:5
90:7 95:15,19,21 96:16,18
101:11 143:20 152:16
164:10 173:16,19 178:2
205:5 207:5,7 208:2,8
218:21 219:21 227:6,11
249:10 287:11,12,19 291:2
302:10
laws
77:19 96:5,8 227:13 333:3
lawsuit
15:18,21 215:21 216:16,19
260:16 276:14,22 277:3,5
277:10
lawsuits
12:22
lawyer
90:12 249:10

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

lawyers
252:8
lays
162:11
lead
170:13 293:14
leads
34:4 265:21 281:5,12,16
leaning
263:10,13
learn
71:9 148:22 149:8 261:2
learned
71:16 145:12
leave
280:21
leaving
233:15
led
29:2 30:21 40:17 265:21
317:6 324:22 328:7
ledyard
4:13 11:22
left
124:16
legal
2:11 11:6,9,11 52:15
332:20
legislation
29:6,13 96:12 108:6
110:15,18 185:17 212:16
213:1 214:1 215:6 227:6
287:4,6
legislations
96:20
legislative
214:4 246:22
legislator
286:2,3
legislators
284:17 285:17,22 286:22
legislature
285:15 287:6
letter
5:9 9:20 16:10,15,17,18,21
17:1,14,16 18:7 19:13 20:2
216:10 260:18 264:10
266:19 302:10
letters
195:1
level
38:8 75:4 93:20 96:3 105:6
107:2,4,9 114:15,17 118:6
120:15 128:3 264:17
326:12,17 331:15

[levels - mary]
levels
127:20 162:12
lewis
3:6 12:3,5
libraries
147:3 243:1
library
178:12
license
173:9 224:13 226:12,16,21
licensed
224:4,6,9 225:1 226:14
licensing
315:5 327:22
lieu
28:7 89:16 218:6,18
219:14
life
165:21 170:12
light
271:18 273:18
limited
35:11 48:15 60:19 142:2
152:10 317:4,5
limits
224:9
line
233:4 236:8 238:18 239:6
267:4 287:2
lines
271:22
link
138:11 220:20 221:17
222:9,13,22
linkedin
8:2 280:11,13
linking
222:2
list
102:4 120:4,18,22 137:19
208:11 229:5 252:4,22
270:6 306:19
listed
74:19 81:14,18 82:5,7,8
94:20 120:9,20 124:16
137:18 202:10 204:15
210:16 221:20 223:20
233:10 252:18 295:7 305:3
332:9
listen
250:4
listing
118:13 119:13 233:2
lists
50:14 89:1 119:17 120:1,3
120:4 141:20 208:6,8

lists (cont.)
237:19 242:1
litigation
16:12 17:15,19,22 18:19
18:22 19:5,6 278:11 301:9
little
29:21 30:19 116:13 149:19
282:4
liz
231:1 237:16 241:4
llp
3:6,16 4:5,13
lobby
285:20
lobbying
286:4 306:11 307:16 308:7
308:11,16 309:20 310:4,6
310:10,14,15,20
located
11:6
location
245:3
long
14:3,7 21:4 22:6 44:20
47:8 91:19 133:13 249:13
279:15 306:19
longer
279:16,18
longworth
285:3
look
19:18 46:20,22 48:21
51:14 53:1 55:15 67:11
80:19 83:10 84:2 110:3
198:18 202:19 203:11
223:7 228:20 264:9 274:15
277:1 332:4
looked
26:11 57:18 58:5 60:7 97:8
229:10 234:15 235:15
289:5
looking
70:12 120:18 236:7 246:14
246:17 261:21 266:11
looks
117:17,18 236:4 251:10
lot
192:10
low
324:8
lower
256:15
lunch
158:2

m
machine
224:9
maiden
20:15
mail
5:11 6:6,15,17 7:2,6,8,10
7:12,15,17,19,21 19:7,16
188:1 194:9,14 203:7
225:2 230:21 232:16,18,21
233:2,3,7,10,13,17 234:15
235:15 236:8 237:15,20
241:1,3,4,21 246:1 248:1,4
248:17 251:17 255:14
256:15 257:5 259:11,15,19
259:22 260:2 268:14 269:6
270:5 271:16,17,20,22
272:2 274:5 275:14 276:11
276:12,14 277:2 302:20
303:3,6,12,13 307:15
308:21,22 309:7,9
mailed
256:19
mails
187:10 251:6 259:10
maintain
138:10 270:8,13
maintained
135:10,18 156:9,14 157:5
157:8,9 158:8 159:1,1,5
217:15 324:7
maintaining
138:16 139:5 323:17
maintains
137:3
maintenance
135:21 137:12 330:16
majority
58:11 129:17 252:5
making
185:1 207:14 213:12,17
250:9 266:16 272:15 286:1
287:3
malamud
143:3,19 184:7,13,16,17
185:3,20 186:17 187:10
191:12,15 203:1 260:15
276:13
malamud's
186:8 196:10 203:7 260:19
261:1,4
manage
312:18 328:12,16,21 329:2
329:8

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

managed
329:21
management
9:7 21:12 22:7 23:5 44:18
49:17 72:13,18,20,22 73:1
80:16 100:3 138:21 201:4
260:13 293:13 297:7
managing
127:14
mandatory
76:7 161:16 162:4 163:8
163:13
manipulation
35:16,17
manner
166:4 199:21
manufacturing
23:20
march
21:7 23:11,11 24:2 181:6
184:2,14 231:5 236:16
292:18 294:4 297:9,11
mark
15:2,22 111:14 116:20
marked
15:4,8 16:2,6 116:22 117:4
118:19 119:1 149:22 150:3
156:16,20 157:10 160:16
160:20 164:12,16 179:12
190:14 191:4 204:1,5
205:10,14 229:15,19
230:11,15,16 232:7,11
235:2,6 237:6,10,22 238:4
240:15,19 245:12,16
247:16,20 250:14,16,20
256:8,12 259:3,7 268:6,10
271:9,13 278:21 279:3
280:5,9 288:9,13 289:6,10
289:20 290:2,14,17 291:13
291:16 292:8,12 293:8,20
294:12,16 295:8,12 296:2
296:6,19 297:1,18,22
298:13,17 299:15,19 300:9
300:13 301:20
market
29:4
marking
162:16
mary
1:14 2:9 5:2 8:3 10:15
12:12 16:13 20:13,15
231:8 248:8 252:19 253:4
256:21 260:2,3,4,7,8,9
263:4,6,8 268:16 281:5,12
281:16 332:18 333:11

[mary.saunders - moment]
mary.saunders
233:11
material
85:13 86:13 90:16 94:11
94:12,16 95:12 99:7,12,14
165:12,19 166:2,11 167:3
169:21 170:11 171:4,6
172:1,3,12,19 173:22
174:6,9,22 177:20 214:19
224:6 226:14 242:3
materially
36:7,22 329:13
materials
1:4 3:3 10:17 53:6 86:1
87:17 88:10 89:5 165:12
183:1 211:11 212:13 224:4
224:9,14 225:1 234:1
305:6
matrix
7:14 252:13,15 254:8
matt
279:6
matter
10:16 17:13 258:1
matthew
4:3 11:18
mbecker
4:8
mckiel
260:2,3,4 263:4,8
mean
16:17 26:17 30:1 32:14
36:5 41:6,9,10 52:6 59:8
73:6 76:10 78:9 85:17
88:22 89:8,18 94:4 101:5
108:4 126:5,5,18 129:16
134:11 142:11 170:15
174:18,19 175:10 193:12
193:21 194:15 231:15
240:6 242:3 254:12 263:12
263:16 268:20 270:17
278:1 281:19,21 282:5
328:21
meaning
269:6 281:21
means
26:22 27:3 59:9 77:14
83:17 84:14 99:2 100:14
129:21 139:12 146:22
147:4 170:21 183:21 274:2
305:18
meant
126:21 154:8 194:2 242:8
249:21 263:20 275:8
measurement
21:17 22:5 313:8

mechanisms
272:22
media
10:14 115:16,20 159:19
160:1 203:17,21 279:21
280:3 311:5,9 332:19
medical
70:20 71:4
meet
125:7,12 126:15,17 127:1
151:22 170:7 188:6 271:3
313:15
meeting
8:4,7,21 59:4,9 150:8,12
151:4,9,12,16,19,20
153:14 155:22 156:4,8,12
157:3,19,22 158:1 159:13
159:15 160:11 179:19,21
184:14 188:16 204:10,12
214:18 215:1 230:5,7
249:1 252:8 253:3 269:5
269:17,19 288:17,18,20,22
289:1,3,14,15 290:7,12
291:5,7,11,22 292:18,22
293:2 294:4,5,19,20,21
295:2,4,18,19 296:12,13
298:6,7,10 299:2,5,14
300:2,4,18,20 304:18
305:1,2 324:12
meetings
68:3,9 107:10 126:7,9,11
126:13,19 144:11 156:8,14
157:7 252:5 254:22 255:2
255:3,5,9,15 269:8,9,14
270:1 271:19 293:5,7
307:2
meets
67:20 124:7
member
32:17,20,21 33:9,11 41:11
41:13,17 42:11,13,14,18
42:19,22 43:9 44:1,12,19
44:21 46:8,10,13,16 48:9
51:11 53:11,16,18 54:3,15
54:19,21,22 55:12,13 56:3
56:4,7,9,18 57:2,9 58:1,22
59:3,7 60:14,18,22 61:3,5
61:6,6 63:8,14 64:10 65:10
65:19 67:12 68:8,21
106:21 107:6 118:8,10,10
118:11,13 121:10,13,15
125:3,4,5,11,18,21,21,22
126:14,22 150:12 151:2
157:21,22 182:2,3 183:14
189:19 278:2,8 285:5

members
37:4 39:15 41:14 48:15
51:3,3 53:5 58:10 63:3,17
63:18 65:5 67:19 68:16,17
68:18 69:3 100:6 109:1,6
123:18,20 125:12 126:3
129:17 153:7 158:4 241:5
241:19 253:20 255:6,9
284:15 306:15,17 307:5
membership
41:15 43:15,21 44:6,7 45:3
45:7 46:5,12 55:4,6,16
63:19 119:14 124:19,20
125:1,7 154:7,10,14,16
278:3
memorializes
20:3
memory
56:1 57:8 107:1 126:22
146:13,15 147:10,18
149:21 153:19 180:1
182:16 186:6 211:16 240:5
240:5
memos
93:19
mention
65:16 116:5,7 123:13,15
257:6
mentioned
22:10 30:10 34:22 39:7
44:5 45:16 47:9,17 48:6
49:1,10 53:14 58:5 60:9
61:20 62:20 65:1 68:15
69:2 78:4 81:22 85:19
93:14 100:12 101:12
124:18 127:8 128:20
139:13 152:15 169:18
173:4 193:13 200:21 219:5
219:18 228:13 242:22
246:19 247:9 249:4 250:1
270:2 272:21 286:22
287:11 324:6 325:3
message
252:2 254:17 268:16
messaging
190:3
met
180:10 249:15
metal
215:22
method
314:17
methods
31:19 153:9 162:15
microphones
10:6,10

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

milburn
4:13 11:22
military
201:11,21 202:1,5
miller
3:15 12:6,7
mind
116:12 232:3
mine
199:3 250:5
minimal
176:10
minimize
141:9
minimum
167:8
minority
252:5
minute
311:2
minutes
6:3,13 8:14,18 9:3,15,17
111:16 179:18 230:3,9
232:1 291:21 294:2 296:10
300:1,17 323:7
missed
252:20
missing
189:15
mission
21:20 27:16 28:5 30:10
31:3 39:13,18 40:16,21
43:14 108:1,18,22 109:5
111:22 112:17 152:9,19
228:16 282:2 287:16
316:16
missions
45:21 108:9 112:3
misspoke
241:15
mistaken
52:19
misunderstanding
188:22
misuse
196:2
model
314:12,12 315:15
models
154:6 155:6 325:18
modernization
77:17 78:5 79:14 80:7
81:15,20 82:3 83:15 84:6
84:10
moment
171:21 185:19 232:20

[moment - object]
moment (cont.)
276:6
monday
236:16
money
313:21 323:10
month
144:11
monthly
269:12
morgan
3:6 12:2,4
morganlewis.com
3:10,11
morning
10:3 11:17 12:18 260:22
motivation
218:3,12
move
101:4
moved
47:9 48:7
moves
99:4 331:5
moving
58:19 215:18
msha
199:4,9,12 200:6,7
mto.com
3:20
multiple
76:15 223:16
multiplicity
76:13
munger
3:16 12:7
municipal
331:9,15
n
n.w.
2:12 3:7,17
name
11:8,17 20:15 169:6
189:15 225:2,3 233:3
names
20:13 31:22
nara
86:10 87:17 88:7 89:1,1
90:17,19,22 91:4,10,15,20
92:1,2,6,9,11,20 93:2,6,8
93:12,17 94:6 169:19
211:1,2 231:6,20 232:1
240:7 241:8 242:20 261:13
272:5

nara's
85:12,16 211:9 212:5
232:6 233:21
narrow
286:7
nation
257:10
national
1:5 3:13 4:21 10:18 17:4
20:21,22 21:12,17 22:4
24:9 27:14,18,21 28:1
30:10 38:10 39:5 40:21,22
41:2 42:16,19 43:9,10
45:17 49:13,14 51:12,14
51:15,16,19 52:5 57:17
61:10 65:4 74:17 76:14,16
78:18 82:4 84:22 85:6,9,19
92:18 93:15 118:3,4,7
122:22 123:1,17 127:7,10
127:15 128:2,4,12 131:6
131:15 132:6,12,17 133:1
133:3,6,7,16,18,22 134:3,7
134:20 136:9,12 140:16
152:16 175:12 178:8 180:8
182:21 189:19 199:4,5
204:21 209:15 211:3,8
216:1,5 218:15 233:20
235:12 268:21,22 269:4
281:22 288:18 289:15
294:22 307:8 313:7,10
317:1
nation's
285:9
ndg
195:1 196:2 199:7
necessarily
213:14,19
necessary
72:1 164:6 166:8 200:10
324:13
need
13:15 14:6 31:2 102:1
152:19 170:20 190:1
248:11 265:1 266:20
316:15 321:16
needed
18:14 221:3,16 242:9
needs
151:22 152:4 155:7,12
172:14 194:2 313:16
negative
210:21 228:8
neglected
65:16 116:5,7 123:13
neiman
231:1 237:16 241:4 248:2

neiman (cont.)
248:4 274:6 275:8
neither
334:11
network
224:10
neutral
263:7
new
4:15,15 56:19,21 63:18
236:17 260:9,10 330:16
nfpa
12:8,9 188:5 189:13 199:5
199:6,13,17 200:5 208:19
209:14,16 274:21 275:10
275:17 277:6 322:13
nist
21:13,16,17 22:1,2,8,21
23:6,9,13 24:14,20 27:1,6
27:14 43:1,7,13,14,15,21
44:2,6,11 45:3 46:2,18
47:10 48:7,8 54:17,18,18
56:7 57:18 61:12 72:14,21
73:5 93:21 105:4 107:14
115:3,8 119:9 135:7,10
136:22 139:5,14 145:18
146:1 153:6,6 184:19
191:10,20 195:2 196:21
197:5,5,6,11 198:6 199:1,9
199:14 200:4,13,17 231:10
231:16,19,20 233:13,15
253:16 273:11 311:16,17
311:21,21 312:4,10 313:2
313:16,20 314:6 315:1,8
316:4,19 317:2,10,10,14
319:8 320:4,4,13 321:7,9
321:20 322:4
nist.gov
233:11
nist's
27:16 48:13 138:15 196:14
198:19 202:17 313:9
nominated
67:5
nominating
67:6,7 118:16
nominations
124:13
non
260:21
nondated
199:15
nonprivileged
266:4
nonprofit
71:5 270:12

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

nonpublic
264:14,15
nonspecific
145:2
noon
236:15
normal
172:9
northwest
11:7
notary
333:19 334:1,21
note
10:6 160:9 198:17 202:13
231:22
noted
118:2 154:4 183:7 188:4
188:20 194:22 248:18
notes
302:21 305:3,12
notice
2:15 87:9 99:22 100:15,17
100:22 137:6 167:4 182:20
211:6,14 233:18 234:5
242:2 246:12 248:20 272:5
notices
167:18
notifying
287:17
noting
155:4 237:16
november
22:9,17,22 23:12 295:18
296:12 300:19
npc
65:7 268:17,20 271:18
nspa
199:10
nttaa
28:2 177:21 178:6
number
44:14 52:12 83:8 126:19
130:5 138:2,3,7 173:9
187:9 210:5,19 217:15,16
220:18 251:22 332:19
o
oath
13:7
object
218:9 309:17 310:1,3,13
312:3,13 313:6 314:10,19
315:7,13,21 316:9,20
317:18 318:2 319:1,21
320:14 321:1,22 322:5
326:14

[objection - organization]
objection
25:15 26:9 28:12 30:17
31:12 32:6,7 33:7,19 34:17
36:19 37:7 38:20 39:4,19
39:20 41:8,21 43:3,18 45:5
45:15 47:16 48:5 49:21
50:7,12 52:22 54:4 58:2,3
58:13,14 59:1,16,20 61:19
62:17 64:12,21 65:11 69:1
69:20 73:11 77:4,10 78:2,3
78:15,16 79:16,17 82:13
82:21 83:21,22 84:8,15,19
84:20 86:9,22 87:13,14
88:4,5,16,17 89:22 90:9,10
91:7,11,16,21 92:14 94:18
94:19 95:3,4,9,16,17 96:1
96:10 97:6 98:13,18,19
99:16,17 100:10,11,19
101:16,20 102:18 103:13
104:4,13 105:2,14,15
106:2,9,15 107:18,19
108:19 109:16 110:12,13
110:20,21 112:8,9 113:22
114:11,21 117:16,22
119:15,16 120:10 121:9
122:5,17 125:15,19 126:20
128:8 129:20 130:16
131:16 132:13 133:5,19
134:4 135:16 136:18
137:14 138:17 140:1,10
141:4,5 142:9,19,20
143:10 144:6,22 145:16
146:2,11,19,20 147:14,16
148:7,8,18,19 149:4,12
151:17 152:14 153:4,17,18
154:19,20 155:14,15 156:2
156:11 157:14,17 158:10
158:11 159:3 163:18,19
168:7 169:2,8,16,17
170:16,17 171:7,8,15,16
172:5,6 173:1,2,17 174:3,4
174:13,14 175:7,8,22
176:9 177:4,5,11,12
178:14,20 182:5,9 183:17
186:9,19,20 190:10 193:22
194:16 195:15 197:14
200:20 209:21,22 213:3,4
215:8,9 217:11,12 218:13
218:14 219:3,4,16,17
221:5,18,19 222:8,15,16
223:5,11 225:8,19 226:4
227:21,22 228:11,12 229:7
231:18 234:11 235:17
236:2 237:3 238:9 240:3
242:12,13 243:10,11 244:1
245:7,8 249:22 250:11

objection (cont.)
254:2,3,9,10,18,19 255:11
255:12 256:6 257:21
258:17,21,22 261:5 262:3
262:21,22 265:18,19 266:6
266:7 267:14 270:9,10,18
270:19 271:5,6 272:19,20
273:8,9 275:3,11,12,18,19
276:2,3 278:12 282:8,11
283:6,7 284:8,9 286:5,6
287:9 288:7 291:9 292:5
301:14,17 304:16 305:14
307:18 308:3,12 309:2,21
310:5,16 323:15 324:20
325:13,14 326:5,6,15,22
327:1,11,17,18 328:4,5,18
328:19 329:5,6 330:1,2,7
330:12,13 331:1,12,13
objections
116:17 321:10
objectives
69:4
obligation
89:13,20
obligations
89:6,6,7,8 177:22 178:3
obviously
153:10 196:12 240:7
occasions
118:16
occupied
24:1
occur
196:2
occurred
185:5 188:16 253:12
occurring
212:19
occurs
111:12
october
24:5 25:1 288:19
offer
268:17 269:4
offered
71:17 139:12
offhand
31:16
office
9:7 23:13 24:17,18 25:9,10
26:19,22 28:21 47:11 48:7
48:12 85:10,21 86:2 91:2
100:2,21 105:5 139:15
149:15,18 164:18 165:2
167:5 178:12 179:3,9
253:20 269:18 270:14

office (cont.)
297:7 318:13,17 319:13,15
officer
73:3,4 334:3
officers
73:10
offices
25:7 27:5 268:17 269:5
270:4,8,22 271:1
office's
178:18
official
17:8 126:4 303:16
officio
65:5 68:18
ofr
196:7,11 319:9
ofr's
319:17
oh
194:13 281:10
okay
14:13 20:7 23:10 28:14
56:21 82:9 94:6 96:15
116:11 161:22 180:4,16
181:9 188:3 203:15 265:16
281:10,11 311:18 322:8
323:1 331:16 332:12
olsen
12:7
olson
3:16
omb
34:10 45:22 79:2 85:3 89:3
90:13 92:5,5,7,20 93:16
101:21 102:7,9,10 114:2
139:7 141:19,20 147:22
150:17 152:18 170:3
204:22 261:13,13 262:5,13
263:9 264:2,17 265:11
267:11,22,22 282:1 287:19
297:7 317:20 318:4 319:9
319:13,17
once
126:16
ones
41:22 257:16
online
168:2 208:17,20 209:20
210:11 212:17 213:2 215:7
242:4,9 243:6,21 244:16
245:2 250:3 272:8,11
320:6,18
open
17:6 18:10 35:5,9,11,16,17
155:4 158:1 214:17 224:4

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

open (cont.)
285:4 329:13
opening
151:12
openness
34:13 36:1 128:21
operate
75:20 76:4 83:18
operated
121:20 122:1
operates
114:5 121:20
operational
72:21 73:4
operations
53:21 155:18 226:6 282:16
315:4
operative
94:2,3 246:2
opine
142:5,16 144:18 153:15
opined
154:6
opinion
83:1 215:11 243:13,16,20
245:11 316:11,11
opposed
46:9 101:9 115:4 154:12
313:5
option
242:20
options
242:22 244:18 272:9
order
49:20 58:11 75:20 76:4
134:21 221:3,16 225:12
226:17 241:13 279:9
320:20 324:3
orders
93:18
organic
108:5 109:18
organization
5:10 22:16 26:2 33:2,18
34:1,2,3 37:20 40:14 41:1
51:6 71:5 75:9,19 76:3
83:18 84:5 103:5,17
104:10,17,21 105:18,22
106:7,13,18 114:8 117:21
120:15 121:22 122:20
123:10 127:22 131:2,9,13
132:4 138:4 140:17 168:11
168:12,12 173:8,10 179:2
202:9 209:11 221:9 222:19
225:3 270:13 278:17
285:20 304:19 308:11

[organizational - permitted]
organizational
41:14 42:3 117:11,14
323:18
organizations
32:13,16,18 33:6,13 34:20
41:4,7,16,17 42:5,5,6,9
44:10 47:3 70:18 72:6,9
75:6 78:8 82:10,12,15
105:8,13 106:22 107:5
120:6,8 122:19 128:9
129:22 130:19,20 153:11
166:10 210:3,6,9,10,16
217:17 222:1 241:19
269:11,22 274:21 275:9
285:5 287:15 305:3,11,22
308:17 312:6,16 314:7
315:4 316:7 318:1,8 319:5
324:7,10 325:3,8
organization's
26:4 79:6 131:21 161:3
311:22 312:11 329:11
organizes
140:13
original
261:16
outbound
222:22
outcome
334:16
outlined
151:19 247:15
outlines
169:20 246:13
outreach
7:14 188:5,17 252:2,4,13
252:15,22 254:1,8 284:16
284:21 285:1,15,17 287:5
306:12
outside
112:18 202:4 283:16 307:7
overall
78:9 114:4 133:8
oversaw
73:6
oversee
62:13
overseeing
52:2
oversees
62:7
oversight
78:6 306:17
owner
166:22 221:7,12 327:13
owners
206:21

owning
167:2 168:11,11 222:1
oxymoron
306:14
p
p.m.
332:17,22
packaging
162:15
page
5:2 119:11 153:22 154:3
160:21 161:1,10 165:8,10
169:19 170:6 177:15 180:2
180:17,17 188:3 194:14
201:7 204:14 206:6 207:3
210:22 220:5 224:20
237:18 238:14,15,19 242:1
252:12,13 253:1 256:15
268:13 272:3 276:10
280:11 309:11
pager
309:14
pages
1:22 132:17 207:22 304:13
paid
44:6 45:6
panel
251:11 285:2
paper
181:12 182:13 183:8 331:7
papers
306:6
paragraph
151:19 154:2 162:21
165:16 180:20,22 184:4
188:19 194:21 195:4
198:22 199:11 200:12
236:12,13 239:12 256:17
272:4 303:22
paragraphs
155:3 273:17
paraphrasing
34:11
pardon
253:7
part
24:19 31:1 40:20 85:15
109:13,15 119:7 120:19
127:17 134:22 137:5
138:21 139:17,19 143:12
143:14,17 154:10,16 159:5
164:7 167:2 170:1 226:5
231:9 234:3,18,21 238:8
240:14 241:20 282:17
314:16 315:5 318:10

part (cont.)
323:21 328:2
participants
38:4 130:6 154:8 324:6
325:2,5 327:4,8,20
participate
36:17 37:4,10 39:3,11,16
40:3 43:6 44:1,9 45:19
46:14 54:1 69:15 121:16
125:17 126:8 144:2 152:21
153:3 211:21 234:4 255:15
297:13 324:1,12 325:11
326:2,20 330:19 331:10
participated
42:22 43:11,12 44:12 47:2
56:3 61:7,16,18 63:8 69:19
105:13 119:18 122:10
123:11 126:10 143:19
144:4 153:7 214:17,22
246:5 308:8
participating
43:17 45:4,8,12 46:1 59:13
121:6 122:7 313:4 326:8
331:4
participation
30:22 39:22 43:16,22
48:13,14 60:18 102:12
119:10,20 120:14,22 121:1
122:21 144:10 152:2
153:10 154:11,17 155:9
231:1 324:8
particular
35:15 36:15 40:2 48:22
76:21 103:9,9 110:4 111:1
128:1 129:14 130:15 132:5
134:6 135:6 144:16,19
152:8 169:6 172:14,15
193:8 197:19 202:11 203:1
214:21 228:3 229:1,5
234:22 274:18 312:17
330:18
particularly
27:8 257:11,15
parties
2:16 10:13 36:7 37:1
167:16 168:15 170:10
171:22 217:6,9,20 244:10
334:12,14
partnership
257:9,20 258:5,7,9,13
parts
51:9
party
179:8
passage
29:5

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

passed
96:6 239:7 287:11
passes
96:12
patent
62:9,20
patricia
230:22 248:2 260:1,7
268:15 291:3 293:15 297:8
patty
181:3 246:7 252:8 256:20
257:3 263:5 274:7
pauley
188:20 189:4,9,10,12,22
pauley's
189:14
pause
28:13 111:2,4
pay
43:15,21 45:3 46:7,9 154:7
173:8 323:13 325:10 326:1
326:19
paying
154:12 310:18
pen
331:7
penalty
333:2
pending
14:8
pennsylvania
3:7
people
55:20 167:16 222:12 242:6
242:11,16 243:1,8 268:1
307:2 328:16
performance
162:13
period
28:21 32:21 44:19 49:17
101:1 214:11 227:10
239:20 240:12
periodic
198:14 202:17
periodically
92:2 126:6,6 127:1 132:20
198:10 228:20
perjury
333:2
permissible
19:9,10 265:4,14
permission
220:19 221:3,11,16 222:10
222:13
permitted
110:15,18 226:13 267:5

[permitted - prevention]
permitted (cont.)
286:8,13,18
person
44:1 48:12 63:20 64:1
149:1,9 203:9 245:2 249:8
personal
17:7 45:13 47:4 114:19
223:12 227:17 286:19
316:10,11 329:8
personally
42:16,21 43:19 45:8 93:4
103:20 104:5 178:15 179:5
182:18 282:5
personnel
75:12
petition
182:20 183:3 211:1,7
233:19 240:7,14 241:9
301:8
petroleum
209:12
phase
220:5
philosophically
274:9
phmsa
212:14,16 213:1 215:6
phone
18:14
phones
10:9
phrased
208:3
physical
167:15 245:4
pick
10:7
picked
194:7
piece
185:17 266:22 267:1 287:4
pipeline
185:11,13,15 212:7,10,13
214:10,15,19 246:11,20
248:21 250:2 304:18,19
305:5
place
10:9,12 18:2 137:22 151:7
156:4 171:1 217:18,19
228:19 287:2
places
125:7
plaintiffs
1:9 10:22
plan
252:2

planning
18:12
plans
70:12 71:13 188:6
play
214:12
played
252:1 332:9
please
10:6,9 11:16 12:11 13:20
14:7 15:2,22 77:6 116:20
165:8 180:2 281:4 303:1
304:9 306:5,7 332:2
pleased
231:9,12 234:18
plenary
239:8
plus
160:12 241:5 274:8
point
13:19 108:21 109:4 116:4
161:11 162:6 163:2 168:10
170:5 198:1 200:17 239:11
239:18 255:18 261:19
269:17
pointed
92:17 168:14 187:4
points
248:10
policies
79:8
policy
20:20 21:10 23:4 27:8,10
43:9,10,12 46:1 48:14,17
49:6,7,11,15 50:21 51:1,10
51:12,14,16,19,20 65:2,4
67:13 68:10,12,17,22 70:3
71:11 73:15 105:6 118:3,4
118:7,9 120:15 123:17
124:9 127:7,10 150:11,16
151:14 156:13 157:20
158:3,16 181:18 182:1
183:13 268:22 269:4 281:3
282:3,19 286:21 287:19
288:18 289:15 294:20,21
294:22 303:18 304:1
319:16 329:15
policymakers
271:4 272:13 273:7,14
political
60:7 265:15
portal
135:22 136:3,4,5 137:3,3,9
137:12,17 138:8,11,15
139:12,16,18,22 140:7,12
140:22 141:8 168:13,15

portal (cont.)
205:8 209:2 210:18 216:22
217:3,13,14,22 219:1,22
220:10 223:7 224:17,19
225:7,13 226:18 227:1,16
229:3,10,13,14 303:13
304:2,4,5 306:2
portion
83:4 157:21 172:20 174:1
174:10,17 175:4 176:11
201:2 246:2 290:12
portions
198:11 200:22
pose
166:1
position
21:4,6 23:3,14 24:1,3 25:9
28:17,19 62:4 66:18 70:4,7
70:10,19 71:10 72:7 92:16
123:16 145:17 146:1,5
149:16 151:13 178:18
181:12 182:12 183:8
244:21 250:6 260:9,10,13
311:21 315:1,9,11 316:1
317:16,21 318:19 320:1,9
320:11
positions
22:13,16 25:6 49:19 50:6
50:11,15 64:17,19 65:13
70:14,15,17,22 116:6
117:20 122:2 123:10 124:9
124:14 311:17 317:10
319:18 320:4 321:10,15
positive
210:20
possibility
98:6 105:21
possible
19:15 38:12 55:17 113:3
135:5 146:12 149:19 227:8
276:4 324:16
post
70:13 71:13 221:9
posted
182:17 260:19 262:16
posting
206:7,13,19 216:11 222:2
285:2
postings
206:22
posts
168:16
potential
54:22 171:3,14
potentially
309:19

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

powerpoint
290:22 291:6 297:5 298:21
practice
167:6 169:4 195:19 196:14
197:18 221:21,22 222:5,7
222:18,21 228:2,17 263:11
263:14,17,21 264:3 265:12
267:12 313:14,17
practices
94:10,15
practitioners
143:20
predated
121:2
preference
135:6
preliminaries
13:3
prepare
86:1,13 293:6
prepared
14:16 156:9 157:5,8 158:8
159:1 307:6
prepares
293:4
prescriptive
274:16
present
2:15 4:19 11:13 151:9
179:21 180:16 206:2
288:20 291:11 293:2 295:2
295:19 297:10 298:7 299:6
300:4,20
presentation
132:18 205:20 206:3
290:22 291:6 297:6,11
298:22 299:11,12
presented
69:5 185:2 224:21 291:2,7
297:8 299:1
presenting
204:15
president
4:20 20:19 53:19 55:9 66:4
67:22 96:13 251:19 281:2
286:20 291:3,4
presidential
287:12
presumably
71:21
pretty
277:19
preventing
14:21
prevention
224:6,8

[previous - purposes]
previous
129:6 294:6 296:14 299:6
previously
14:11 42:14 54:19 61:15
123:12
primarily
63:12 311:15
primary
312:14
principle
140:4
print
223:4,10 224:5,5 320:6,19
printout
119:8
prints
224:8
prior
23:14,18 24:12 25:2,3
29:17 72:2 92:4,7 160:6
183:9 184:13 233:14 323:4
private
10:7 27:6 30:21 31:5,10
40:17 46:10 52:9 79:1,9
93:22 94:8 189:16 218:5
218:17 219:13 257:9,20
258:4,7,8,13 268:1 284:18
315:15 317:6 324:22 328:7
privately
32:5
privilege
17:11
privileged
266:1,4 267:1,2
privy
155:17 261:6
pro
5:12 6:7 119:3,3,13 191:6
probably
44:13 47:20 57:6 66:14
69:8 126:10 189:19 226:7
231:6
problem
207:1,4 247:7 311:14
procedural
177:18
procedure
104:2
procedures
99:2,9 100:14 101:3
329:17
proceeding
104:2 170:2 332:21
proceedings
289:2,18 290:10 292:4
294:9 295:5,22 296:17

proceedings (cont.)
300:7 301:1
proceeds
327:9,16,21
process
17:10 34:4,12,14 35:1,22
36:2 58:20 99:5,22 101:5
103:10 127:15,18 128:11
128:22 129:15,22 131:1,20
132:1,18 134:8 144:12
147:22 154:12,18 155:9
175:16 210:14 228:19
312:18 313:4 327:21
328:12,16,21 329:9,21
331:3
processes
26:1 99:19 132:5 329:12
procurement
282:3,17,18
produce
187:15 302:19 313:15
produced
34:12 35:22 117:5,12
119:2 150:5 156:21 165:2
179:16 191:5 192:18 204:7
205:15 229:20 233:2 235:7
237:10 238:5 240:20
245:17 256:13 259:8
268:11 271:14 279:4
288:14 289:11 290:3,19
291:18 292:13 293:21
294:16 295:13 296:7 297:2
298:1,18 299:20 300:14
302:2,8,14 303:6
producer
36:11 37:21 38:11,16
producing
89:16
product
29:6,8 74:11 75:10 134:19
162:12,17 172:13 175:16
production
16:14 302:3
products
26:1 135:2,3
professionals
52:11,21
profile
8:2 280:13,15
program
29:4 49:2 78:6,9 80:2,3
programs
52:15,16 53:9 166:1
169:10 281:18 284:16
prohibited
213:6,7

project
132:5
promise
14:3
promote
93:21
promotion
94:7
promulgating
199:20
property
72:22 181:17,22 183:12
propose
177:19
proposed
6:8 8:9,16 63:17 87:9
99:22 100:4,22 101:1
102:15 103:2,22 137:6
167:4,19 168:17 246:4
256:1,20 271:20,21 290:6
290:11 292:16,22
proposing
99:6,7,12
protect
89:6,7,9,13,20 312:21
protected
17:10 89:11 207:11 224:13
protection
1:5 3:13 4:21 10:19 31:20
88:12 173:12 189:20 199:5
209:15 223:16,21 224:1
260:6 307:8,22 309:16
314:16 317:12 319:10,18
321:17
protective
279:9
provide
13:5 14:8 50:1,14 53:6
80:5 81:10,15,19 82:2,10
82:11 115:8 130:14 140:14
166:6 168:5 200:22 204:20
209:2 210:11 217:2 228:17
286:21 287:22 288:4
provided
14:11 80:7 83:12 107:12
119:7 135:12 136:22
139:15 140:11 141:8
186:18 224:12 269:18
provider
224:13
provides
51:2 85:22 86:5 114:4
138:8 217:14 219:6,22
providing
81:3 136:5 172:21 174:2
174:11 175:5 200:13 218:4

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

providing (cont.)
220:2 309:14
provision
78:7 127:19 128:7
provisions
120:5 140:15 155:7,11
163:7
public
17:19 20:20 21:10 23:4
57:11 70:3 71:11 73:14
83:13 99:3 100:6,15,18
102:16 144:10 147:2
152:19 166:12,18 168:22
188:5,17 190:1,4,6,13
215:22 216:9 246:4 247:6
248:17,20,22,22 249:1
257:9,13,20 258:4,7,8,13
261:18 262:8,13,15 276:16
277:6,11 281:3 286:20
301:10 305:5 312:21
333:19 334:1,21
public.resource.org
1:11 4:2 11:1,19 15:19
107:12 184:7 205:7 215:19
260:18
public.resources.org
196:7
publication
86:2 92:3,4
publications
223:2
publicly
220:11 267:10,21
publish
167:4
published
58:12 86:13 87:18 88:10
90:20 139:7 277:20,22
publishers
166:11
publishes
100:21 103:5
publishing
90:5,6
purchase
175:15 245:3
purchaser
134:19
purchasers
76:21 135:2
purpose
16:20 17:1 57:22 58:4
151:15,18 190:7 222:3
254:8 310:20
purposes
176:13 221:11

[pursuant - reference]
pursuant
2:15 46:1 96:5 267:5
316:21 318:6
purview
121:18
put
67:4 241:14 255:19 264:21
331:7
q
qualified
80:10,12 135:4
quality
162:12
question
13:20 14:4,8 29:22 32:9
36:21 38:1 40:5 46:6 59:22
65:13 75:22,22 76:5 79:12
86:17 95:1 97:8 114:7
133:15 140:21 145:2,11
147:8 149:6 158:7 173:21
190:19 242:14 244:20
261:10,12 263:18 267:21
330:8 331:19 332:7,13
questioning
323:8
questions
13:4 14:2 20:4 116:2
128:10 184:21 191:16
242:1 264:20 310:22
311:13,16 322:20
quick
322:22
quite
30:3 62:22 171:10 248:8
268:1
r
rachel
3:15 12:6
rachel.miller
3:20
raise
128:10
raises
66:5 192:21
range
36:15 75:13 169:10 194:10
219:7 312:16 313:3,13,16
325:5,7 328:11,15
ranging
51:4
rayburn
285:3
reach
137:7 166:21 221:22
254:16

reached
167:11 213:11
reaching
329:18
read
77:16 93:6,8,12,19 136:5,5
138:8 140:15 141:16 142:2
142:3,6 154:2 170:7,20
171:21 196:10 208:16
209:2 213:6 217:3,14
221:4,10,17 224:3,4,17
240:7 244:3 272:11 275:17
277:9,12,13,18,21 278:4,6
281:4,6,9,10 305:12,15
readability
60:9
reading
147:2 167:8,13,15,20,21
168:1,5,9,13 170:12 171:6
171:13 172:2,4 175:1
208:17,22 210:17 242:22
292:6 294:11
real
193:5
realignment
24:20
realization
160:5
realize
14:10
realized
116:2
reason
14:7,21 123:14 158:18,21
190:22 220:16 233:1,6,8
253:11 259:18 267:16,18
270:12
reasonable
49:5 138:11 139:9,13
140:3 141:10,12 142:1
166:12,18 168:22 169:12
169:14 170:1,8 177:22
208:12,20 209:19 220:2,3
242:7,18 244:11 248:11
249:21 255:22 261:12
263:19,22 272:6 273:1
320:5
reasonably
140:9 141:2,18 142:7,18
143:5,9 144:16,20 165:13
165:20 166:3,7 167:3
169:21 177:3,10 242:3,8
242:15 243:6,16,20 244:14
272:17 273:22 274:3 275:1
320:20

reasons
88:8,8,9,11,22 101:8,12,18
recall
50:5 55:19 61:1 69:18
80:21 127:3 132:15 185:22
212:19,20 226:15 232:21
239:1,5,9,16 253:8 258:11
259:15 260:11 261:13
272:4
recalling
132:20
receive
15:16 19:11 69:3 233:7
327:9,16,21
received
15:15 53:21 59:10 62:9,10
145:19 146:4 179:7 279:8
receives
67:21
receiving
154:13 232:21
recess
115:18 159:21 203:19
280:1 311:7
recipient
241:1
recognition
79:21
recognize
15:9 117:7 150:7 157:1
159:11 164:20 179:17
191:7 204:6,9 205:17
212:9 229:22 230:18
232:14 235:9 237:12
240:22 245:20 302:6
recognized
80:9 161:14 162:2,22
recollection
114:20 180:14 187:8
188:15 236:22 321:14
330:6
recommendation
143:16 144:13 203:1 286:2
287:3
recommendations
184:22 185:20 186:1,8,17
274:8 285:21
recommended
67:7
reconstituted
118:17
record
10:4,13 11:16 115:16,20
159:19 160:1 193:9 194:2
196:3,5 199:8,13 203:17
203:21 212:5 214:1 264:22

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

record (cont.)
279:21 280:3,22 311:5,9
332:17 334:10
recorded
10:15 119:19
recording
10:12
records
84:22 85:7,9,20 144:9
175:13 182:21 200:15
211:3,8 233:20 235:12
recuse
54:8,11 72:8,10
recused
54:8 69:11
redirect
322:22
reduced
334:8
reducing
88:9
refer
25:12 27:10 40:8 64:6 66:6
74:1,8 88:6 90:13 92:11
93:2 96:15,19 97:2 102:4
110:9 197:18 199:16
207:22 223:18 239:14,22
reference
6:11,21 7:4 8:12 84:14
85:1,4,8,11,14 87:6,7,8,12
87:16,20 88:2 89:5,13,15
89:20 90:16 94:11,16
95:12,15 97:5,13,16,19
98:2,7,10,16 100:8 101:8
102:2,15 103:3,7,19,22
104:11,18 105:1 106:1,8
106:14 107:3,8,11,16
108:11,15 109:8,9,11
110:10 111:10 112:5,14,22
113:7,13,19,20 114:9,10
115:3,5,9,10 129:5 134:2
134:14 135:8,11,22 136:3
136:6,10,16,21 137:1,5,16
137:18,19,20,21 138:1,10
139:10 140:8 141:1,17
142:7,17 143:4,8,17
144:20 145:8,14 146:10,18
147:13 148:6,16 149:2,11
158:13 159:14 163:16
165:20 167:7 168:6 171:4
175:1,21 177:20 178:13
179:4,10 183:1 184:10,20
186:5 187:2 189:7 193:18
194:4,6 195:12,14 197:20
198:5,8,12 199:3 200:5
202:11 205:5,7,22 207:4,7

[reference - replaced]
reference (cont.)
209:4 210:12 211:11
212:16 213:1,7 214:21
215:6 218:5 219:8,12
227:6 228:4,15 234:1
235:11 241:9 258:4 263:19
272:16 273:6,10,22 282:14
283:5,10,14,20,22 284:5
288:2,6 291:1 316:6
317:11 318:15,19,22
319:11,16,20 320:7 321:12
321:17
referenced
83:20 138:7 139:2 161:6
161:12 199:4,17 200:14
202:5,15 205:21 227:5,13
303:15,22 304:6
references
162:7 163:2 187:5 192:6
192:11 195:5,10 199:10,12
201:8,16 202:19 203:12
228:18,20,21,22 263:8
303:16,20
referencing
170:6 195:21 196:11 213:7
referred
21:1 22:18 33:3 35:20
114:2,3 183:19 188:11
200:6,7 216:7 240:11
248:6,15,16 251:13 256:4
261:3 276:12
referring
20:9 25:13 26:6 27:12,13
28:9 33:17 40:9,10 48:3
60:13 64:7 74:3,4,10,21
91:19 96:8,11 102:6,7
110:17 112:6,14,21 113:6
113:14 161:19 162:21
183:4 189:5,21 191:13
201:5 202:22 207:17
223:17,19,22 224:16,18
248:14 249:2 257:19
258:12 263:13 275:16
276:1 293:12 294:6 306:13
306:15
refers
111:9 178:7 182:19 185:10
185:11 192:15 199:16
212:6 215:21 219:19
241:18,22
refine
248:11
reflect
79:5 132:15 203:5 259:11
280:12 289:2,17 290:9
292:4,21 294:9 295:5,22

reflect (cont.)
296:17 298:9 300:7 301:1
reflected
131:21 137:8 195:17
329:10
reflecting
261:17
reflects
290:11
reform
306:17
refresh
180:13 236:21,22
refrigerating
1:7 10:20
refused
130:12
regard
249:20
regarding
17:5 18:10 19:9 156:7
170:19 177:22 179:3,9
182:20 184:18,19 188:17
231:1 240:12 241:6 244:20
254:1 301:9
register
85:11,21 86:2,14 87:18
91:3 100:21 164:19 165:3
167:6 182:20 211:6,14
233:18 248:20 262:17,20
272:5 319:15
register's
318:14,18
regular
69:7 159:2,6
regularly
126:12,15,18 156:9 157:5
regulate
178:4
regulated
109:2,7 147:2 164:6
170:10 171:22 172:8
regulation
31:2,3 77:3,19 81:18 82:7
85:22 86:7 87:2 90:6,7
92:16,22 93:5 97:9,14,16
97:19 98:3,11,17 101:11
102:16 103:4,19 104:1,11
104:18 105:1 106:1,8,14
107:17 113:1,8,14,21
114:10 115:5,11 129:5
145:8,15 146:10,18 147:13
148:6,17 149:3,11 163:3
163:12,16,17,21 164:2,4
165:22 177:2,9 196:18
197:1 198:9 199:21 201:18

regulation (cont.)
202:11 209:4 227:11 229:1
229:4 234:2 282:3,14
283:14 284:1 287:7 318:14
regulations
29:10 77:13,21 78:13
79:13 83:16 85:2,14,15
86:4,15,19 87:19,21 92:6
94:12,17 95:19,22 96:5,17
96:20 97:2,5 99:1,7,8,13
99:15 100:8,13 102:3,21
108:13,15 109:12 135:9,14
136:7,21 137:20 138:1
140:8 141:2,17 142:7,17
143:5,9 144:20 147:4
152:11 168:6 171:5 182:22
183:2 193:15 194:18
195:10,18 203:10 211:9,12
218:6 219:9,13 227:13
228:15 233:21 283:3,4,9
283:20,21 284:4,12 288:1
304:7 318:18 319:3
regulators
313:5
regulatory
98:21,22 109:21 115:13
152:7 165:22 167:18
185:12 188:7 196:15,18,22
197:6,7,9 199:20 215:16
239:15 240:1 247:5 319:14
reimbursed
45:10
relate
89:13,20 128:21
related
21:20 22:3 27:2,3,7,8,11
27:11 29:6,6 31:3 51:15,17
52:7 60:6 62:8,14,19 63:4
71:7 72:9,11 78:20 82:2
83:16 93:17 128:4 129:13
147:5 178:13 185:10 196:5
214:1 230:4 240:8 258:5
284:16 287:16 319:3
334:11
relates
130:22
relating
260:19
relation
219:12
relations
20:20 21:9 23:4 70:3 71:11
73:14 188:5 190:1,7,13
281:3 286:20 291:3 306:20
relationship
282:19

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

relationships
73:17
relative
334:13
released
57:11
relevance
252:20
relevant
28:6 39:12,17 43:14 44:7
45:20 53:9 73:21 92:17
93:15 94:5,7 95:11 108:22
109:5 114:3 153:12 165:22
169:11 175:16 228:15,22
232:4 244:3 252:3 293:17
302:21,22 312:21 325:17
325:20
reliance
93:22 94:7 107:21 108:3
relied
314:16
rely
79:9 108:7,17 111:21
112:2,16 113:3 218:17
287:13
relying
112:4 228:9 317:6
remained
187:20
remember
16:19 42:1 46:21 54:6
55:18 57:12 63:10 65:17
69:9 71:22 150:8 151:15
170:6 179:11 182:18 183:5
184:22 185:17 186:3,13,21
186:22 187:3 190:20 212:1
212:2 240:6,9,13 250:5
251:5 255:16 277:1 278:19
305:20 315:8
remind
47:1 48:22 184:1
remotely
11:14
renamed
24:19
repeat
75:21 141:22 149:6 171:10
repeated
161:14 162:2
repetition
218:19
rephrase
13:21 22:13 59:22 77:6
replaced
201:14

[report - safety]
report
5:13 8:4,7,21 83:7,11,12
148:22 149:6,8 150:10
155:21 288:17 289:1,14
294:19 295:4
reported
1:19 51:22 73:3,9,10
reporter
11:10 12:11 13:12 116:15
reporting
164:8
reports
51:8 53:19,20,21 62:9,10
107:11 156:7,12
represent
40:17,19 107:7 193:6
representation
36:14
representative
125:4
representatives
38:18 39:2 269:10 305:4
306:19,20 319:14 327:6
representing
11:19,22 40:22 43:13
123:1
represents
41:7,10
reproduced
176:13 290:13 298:12
reproducing
89:16
reps
270:3
republican
257:16,18 258:14
request
6:19 7:3 107:14 119:8
168:16 212:15 231:7,7,21
235:10 236:14 246:6,15,18
requesting
19:17 261:22 262:1
requests
211:10 232:6 233:22 302:3
require
78:1,14 79:15
required
28:17 31:11 68:13 71:14
76:20 77:2,9 86:7,20
116:18 165:11 225:5
226:12,17 243:6 320:6,18
requirement
52:4 128:11 129:10 170:8
177:18 214:2
requirements
29:8 38:9 58:18 81:20

requirements (cont.)
127:18 128:17,19,21 130:1
131:3,18,20 135:4 162:16
164:5,8 247:1 329:10
requires
75:19 76:3 77:12 80:1
208:12 225:11
requiring
208:1,20 209:19 243:16,21
resolved
247:14
resource
17:19 215:22 216:9 276:16
277:7,11 301:10
resources
21:12 22:7 23:6 72:13,18
72:20 73:2,7 138:21
140:14 260:13 317:5,5
respect
18:10 20:4 27:1 72:15 82:1
89:4 128:4 141:10 152:1
175:13 193:2 206:22 222:1
242:20 263:18,21,22 264:9
282:15 287:4 293:16 301:2
315:12 317:10,12,21,22
318:7,14,18,20 319:4,9,18
320:4,11 321:11,16
respectfully
236:14
respective
2:16 227:5
respond
101:4 193:2 231:11,16
232:5 263:3,5
responding
276:11 302:5
responds
99:4 248:7 263:4 274:6
response
6:19 7:3 19:11 21:20 119:7
203:7 211:18,22 212:3
216:11 231:6 234:5 235:10
236:9 237:2 244:4,19
246:6,7 272:4 274:11
302:2 303:21
responses
13:16 111:22 187:16
241:14
responsibilities
21:21 22:2,4 27:13 51:13
67:16 68:6 72:14 73:13
105:3,4 108:1 109:21
110:4,6 215:16 247:5
313:9 316:16
responsibility
115:12 127:10 197:3,8

responsibility (cont.)
198:19,20 228:18
responsible
52:1 72:20 73:16 99:6,12
124:13 127:14 134:7 166:9
203:9
restriction
224:5
restrictions
308:17
result
19:13 102:16 103:4 104:1
107:13 203:6 228:9,9
243:22
retailers
135:3
retained
201:16 332:20
retired
21:14 22:10 57:7 135:20
187:19
retirement
70:12 71:13
revamped
271:19
revenues
83:4
reverify
193:19,21
review
14:16 51:22 86:12 99:22
127:12 183:10,20,22
194:10 200:15 201:3
202:17 231:2,3,10 234:4
234:19,22 239:20 240:12
245:5 256:16,21,22 257:2
261:18 305:19
review.docx
236:9
reviewed
60:16 195:19
reviewing
60:3 194:18 203:9 236:20
reviews
100:3 201:17
revised
139:7 262:7
revises
201:17
revising
147:22
revision
22:1 27:22 56:15 79:2
205:1 262:5,12
right
14:4,6 111:17 132:16

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

right (cont.)
169:19 216:13 237:21
250:22 252:21 266:17
294:6 309:5
rights
181:18,22 183:13 184:8
ring
67:4
risumi
46:20,22 48:22 50:1,14,17
66:11
robust
313:15
role
22:6 65:21 84:4 105:11
121:8 122:7 124:3 127:6
152:12 286:19 332:9
roles
53:12
room
11:13 167:9,13,15,16
168:1,13 208:18,22 242:22
rooms
147:3 167:22 168:5,9
210:17
row
252:19 253:1
rule
87:10 99:5 101:2 137:7
170:9,22,22
rulemaking
86:3 87:10 100:1,22 103:9
137:6 166:21 167:5 168:18
170:9,13 217:5 239:21
rules
100:1,4 167:19 303:17
running
316:8
runs
194:11
russell
16:10,18 19:2,7 20:3 264:7
267:7
russo
1:20 4:22 11:8,11 334:3
s
safety
29:8 73:2 77:17 78:5,7
79:14 80:7,15 81:14,20
82:3 83:15 84:6,10 133:12
162:13 185:11 199:3
208:18 209:6 212:7,14
214:20 246:11,20 248:21
250:2 257:13 305:6 312:22

[sale - significant]
sale
315:5 327:22
sales
327:10
sally
4:20 12:9
san
4:6
sau
9:22 302:9 303:1 304:9,14
306:7 307:13 308:19
309:11
saunders
1:14 2:9 5:2 8:3 10:15
12:12,18 15:7 16:5,13 20:5
20:12,13,17 116:1,11
118:22 160:4,19 180:7
231:8 248:8 252:19 253:4
256:21 267:10 268:16
280:8 323:4 332:1,18
333:11
save
320:6
saying
90:4 142:4 146:8 149:1,9
186:16 234:16 263:5
266:22
says
119:8 151:8,11 155:4
160:21 161:22 162:10
165:11,19 166:8 170:5
171:20 177:17 180:7,22
181:9 183:7 184:4 186:16
188:4,13,19 191:19 192:5
192:10 204:14,19 205:3
206:5,11 207:3,13 208:15
209:18 210:22 211:5,17
212:12 216:13 217:2 218:3
220:5,9,15,18,22 223:15
224:3,20 226:11 227:1
231:8,16 232:19 233:17
236:8,13,19 238:19 239:12
242:5 244:8 246:7 248:3
251:17,21 252:19 253:2,3
255:19 256:17,18 260:7
268:15 271:17 272:3 274:6
279:7 281:4 303:12,14,22
schrotter
230:22 248:3 268:15
science
60:7 180:8 204:21 252:7
scope
84:5 110:4 197:3
scott
230:21 231:15 248:1,5,7
251:9,16 254:13 256:19

scott (cont.)
268:14 291:2 299:2
screen
224:7,8
sdo
40:12 120:1,3,4,6,20
151:21 167:2 216:4 221:4
221:16 255:21 260:17
268:18 306:11
sdos
119:14 120:8,14 131:4
138:10 141:9 155:5,11,18
166:17 167:11 168:21
169:11 184:8 188:8 208:15
208:19 209:18 210:17
212:14,22 213:11 215:5
220:7,13,18 261:21 270:3
270:3,8 272:10,12 273:4,5
274:2 306:2,22 314:16
323:13,16,21 328:10,14
329:2,7,20
sdo's
221:17 270:21
se
17:22
search
72:3
searched
302:20
searches
206:18
searching
193:15
second
25:9 43:4 111:3,5 118:18
158:14 171:20 180:20
191:10 206:6 238:18
256:17,17 272:3 276:10
303:21 328:13
secretary
23:19
section
28:1 39:7 78:20,21 79:3
101:22 198:17 213:6 244:3
sections
198:15
sector
27:6 30:21 31:5,11 35:13
35:19 40:17 46:10 52:9
71:8 79:1,9 218:5 219:13
268:2 284:18 315:15 317:6
324:22 328:7
sectors
133:13
secure
225:4

security
312:22
seeing
200:7
seeking
72:6 247:6 248:20 329:15
seen
16:7,8 119:4 160:14 191:1
251:2 254:11 263:7
select
256:19
selected
67:6 70:5
send
50:19 236:14 256:18
273:19 331:10
sending
271:22
sends
260:1
senior
132:19 293:13,16 310:8
sense
96:22 135:12 269:1,2,3
sensitive
10:7
sent
18:7 19:6 63:19 183:8
184:6 185:20 216:9 235:12
237:15 238:7 260:17
268:16
sentence
171:20 236:13 239:12
256:18 273:11
separate
66:20 198:3
separately
241:17
serve
64:10
served
32:15 43:10 44:15 49:12
55:13,21 56:2 65:18 66:18
118:1,3,5,8,15
serves
124:6
service
21:14 81:13 206:18 209:8
209:17
services
23:20 24:7,8,17,18,19,22
26:1 47:12 48:8,13 49:4,9
82:2 135:19 149:14,17
185:7 192:16
serving
153:10

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

session
158:1,3,15 159:14 160:13
305:21
set
13:3 126:18 132:17 255:9
307:2 331:16
setting
210:9
settlement
127:19 128:7 329:17
seven
149:14,17 183:6 240:8
share
125:8,12 261:20 264:15
265:14,16 269:12 325:4,6
327:21
shared
125:8 264:11 266:1 310:7
325:1
sharing
285:14
sheet
215:22
short
115:18 159:16,21 203:14
203:19 280:1 311:7
shortened
185:13
shorthand
334:7
shot
224:7
show
279:6
showcase
151:21
showcased
248:9
sibr
137:12 138:5,16 139:5,15
191:16,21 195:1 196:3
202:15 203:4
sibrs
199:22
side
124:16 267:6
sides
207:20
sign
226:12
signed
96:12 287:12
significant
143:12 207:1 247:2,3
325:4

[similar - standards]
similar
131:20 209:8
simpler
219:7,11
simply
112:6 113:14 138:6 160:9
170:11 172:1 175:1 218:19
219:21 285:13
site
173:9 220:21 221:4,17
227:3 260:20
sitting
77:22 78:13 103:11
situation
114:4
situations
30:14
six
144:11 155:5 332:19
skyrocketed
206:9
slate
63:17
slide
206:5 207:13 212:6 215:18
215:18,21 216:13,21
220:15 221:21 223:15
227:1
slighted
274:19
slower
116:13
smacna
216:7,9,11,15,19 276:13
276:21 277:3
small
66:5,6 133:8 140:12 141:9
272:14 273:14
society
1:3,7 3:2 10:17,20 312:2,7
sole
327:15
solely
37:17
solutions
2:11 11:6,9,12 332:20
somebody
226:6 228:9
sorry
16:16 22:13,19 28:13
111:6 171:9,17 256:7
257:12 263:3 267:18
328:12
sort
13:16 198:13,13 266:13

sounds
222:6
source
91:22 92:12 94:14 228:3
sources
35:18
space
108:22
span
215:1
speak
27:20,22 36:21,22 37:16
37:22 40:4 54:18 59:4 75:5
78:17 87:2,15,21 88:15
90:12 97:7 99:18 103:10
106:18 110:19 116:12,18
139:20 145:1 146:21
154:22 164:9 210:19
222:18 244:4 254:12
266:21 270:20 284:12
326:16 329:8 331:6
speaker
61:9,12 246:5
speakers
249:5
speaking
36:10 38:8 41:10 260:20
314:9
speaks
94:10 273:11,14
spec
192:11
special
154:13
specialist
25:7
specific
31:1 32:15 47:19,21 54:7
76:7 77:21 78:12 79:13
97:21 105:7,7 109:10
121:19 137:19 146:13
149:21 166:4 168:20 180:1
193:7,9 195:4,6 196:3,4,16
197:22 198:1 199:7,11
202:20 203:11 209:7 210:1
210:8 222:3 240:5 265:17
270:12,15 273:11,20
274:15 284:2 287:3 292:1
306:21 314:12 330:14
specifically
27:16 28:1,3 37:22 39:7
44:14 57:12 71:22 76:9
96:20,21 97:20 122:6
128:13 141:20 164:10
187:11 207:19 241:11,22
264:8 283:15 304:5 330:4

specification
161:13 162:1,8,10,19,20
163:6,12 201:21 202:2
specifications
201:10,11 202:5
specificity
114:16,18
specifics
69:10 168:9 176:6,21
186:14 187:3 250:6 266:12
specifiers
76:21
specify
134:21
spectrum
244:17 272:9
speculate
199:15
spoke
19:1 306:1
spoken
214:8,14
sponsoring
138:4
spreadsheet
252:11
spreadsheets
200:14
staff
37:9 40:3,8 42:12,18 48:12
63:19 64:1 67:22 91:2
98:22 151:20 153:6 223:2
226:7 236:16 249:7 252:6
253:19 255:6,10,21 267:22
269:16 271:1 278:8 285:12
287:18 293:6,11,11,16
306:19 307:1 310:9 323:19
324:11 326:8 330:19 331:7
stage
170:9,22 331:5,5
stages
58:19 239:21
stakeholders
36:17 132:6,7 312:17
313:14 325:6 328:11,15
329:14
stamped
119:12 232:12 247:21
252:14 256:14 279:5
stand
54:21 55:7 63:21 211:2
standard
25:17 31:4,10 32:5,13 34:8
34:9,11,16 35:9,11,13,21
35:22 36:9 37:18 38:7,12
38:22 39:3 48:8 58:11

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

standard (cont.)
59:13 102:16 103:3,4,6,18
104:1,10,17,22 105:18,22
106:7,13 109:15 110:9,17
113:6,7,13,15,20 114:10
115:4,5,9,10 119:9,19
122:15 128:1,2,14 129:4
129:18 130:15 131:8,15
132:6,11,12 133:3,4,17,18
134:13,20 135:1,18 137:5
137:8 138:3 144:16,19
145:7,14 146:9,17 147:12
148:5,15 149:2,10,14,16
161:22 162:20 163:15
167:7 169:1 172:15 175:14
177:2,10 179:1 186:4
190:4 195:5,7,12,13 196:3
196:4 197:12,19,22 198:1
198:2,7 201:12 202:9
213:8 221:4 227:6,8
228:10 229:4,6 245:1,3,4,5
245:5 260:19 272:16
283:13 315:20 322:10,14
322:18 323:14 330:16,17
331:3
standardization
26:3 30:20 40:18 41:1 51:6
51:15 73:21 74:2,7 121:22
122:20 161:20 189:1
211:19 284:16 317:7
standardizing
161:14 162:2,22
standards
8:11 9:13 17:5 20:21 21:1
21:13 22:3 23:13 24:7,9,17
24:18,19,21 25:12,20,21
25:22,22 26:16,18,21 27:2
27:3,7,9,11 28:4,7,9,10,18
29:9,12,14,16,20,22 30:5,7
30:9,12,16 31:7,16 32:4,15
32:16,17 33:5,12,17,22
34:2,5,6,19,20 35:1,4,5,6
36:18 37:6,10 38:10 39:8,9
39:11,16 40:3,13,21,22
41:5,7,11,15 42:4,8,17,19
44:9 45:19 46:16 47:3,11
48:12 49:2,4,9 51:8,18,21
51:22 52:5,7,11,13,20 53:8
56:14,16,20,22 57:10,15
58:1,8,21 59:18 60:3,4,8
61:10,10,21 62:7,8,12,14
62:19 63:1,20 64:4,6 71:6
72:15 73:21 74:4,6,9,15
75:1,3,4,15 76:13 78:19
82:9,15 94:1,8,13 97:15,18
98:4 102:2,12,12 103:17

[standards - sworn]
standards (cont.)
104:9,16,21 105:5,8,12,17
105:21 106:6,12,17,22
107:5,16,22 108:8,17,21
109:4,13 111:9,21 112:2,5
112:7,15,16,21,22 119:17
120:13,21 121:11,13,15,17
122:2,4,11,13,19,22 123:1
127:12,13,15,21 128:5,12
129:22 130:19,20 131:1,5
131:6,9,14,20 132:2,3,18
132:19 133:1,7,9,12,16,22
134:2,3,7,8 135:6,8,11
136:6,9,11,12,17 137:1,15
137:17 138:4,6 139:15
140:7,13,16 141:1,16
142:6,16 143:4,8 149:15
149:18 150:11,12,16,18
151:14 152:1,2,5,8,13,21
153:3,11,16 154:5,9,10,13
154:16 155:10,13 157:20
158:3,16 161:7,10 166:10
166:22 168:5 171:14 172:9
173:4 175:21 178:1 180:6
180:9 181:14 182:14 184:6
184:9,19 185:7 187:2
188:21 189:2,7 193:17
194:3 198:11 199:2 200:13
201:4 202:8,14 203:6
204:16,22 205:4 206:8,14
207:4,6,8,10,15 208:2,4,7
208:13,16 209:3,10 210:3
210:9,10,11,15,18 212:15
212:22 215:5 216:6,11
217:4,6,9,15,16,20 218:6,7
218:18,19 219:7,13,15
220:6,12,20 221:8 223:3
223:10 226:7 227:3,12
228:14 239:14 240:1 244:9
250:9 253:20 257:7 258:10
260:5 269:10,21 272:10,12
273:5,12,15,22 274:3
275:1 281:18 282:7,13,15
282:17,19,21 283:1,5,9,19
283:22 284:5,7,18 285:6,8
287:8,14,15 288:5 291:1
299:1 303:22 304:6,19
305:10 306:1 307:22
309:16 311:22 312:1,6,11
312:15,20,21 313:22 314:4
314:6,13 315:3,15,19
316:5,7,8,15 317:22 318:8
319:5,10 320:7 321:11
323:11,20 324:2,3,7,22
325:2,11,16,17 326:3,9,21
327:9,10,20 329:4 330:15

standards (cont.)
330:22 331:11 332:9
standards.gov
92:18
standing
118:17 181:19 305:7
standpoint
249:17,20
star
80:2
start
115:20 160:1 203:21 280:3
311:9 331:4
started
323:5
starting
119:11
starts
160:20
state
11:14 301:8 326:11,16
331:9,15
stated
212:3
statement
148:11 219:20 227:2,15,18
227:20 239:4,6,10 244:13
250:4 258:16 264:18
265:13,15 287:1 310:9,10
states
1:1 11:3 21:18 22:5 29:19
30:1,2,2,4,5,6,20 35:7 37:6
40:18 76:15 97:19 98:3,11
98:17 100:9 133:10 210:4
313:8 315:16
stating
101:9 146:16 147:11
status
261:10
statutes
96:9,19 178:5
statutory
177:19,22
std
192:11
step
256:18 276:6
steps
260:22 261:2
stint
191:10
stipulate
292:7 294:10
stood
197:22

stop
138:15
stores
225:3
strategic
69:4
street
2:12 3:17 4:5,14 11:7
strictly
244:15 272:6
strike
214:7 243:18
striking
280:21
string
246:1
strongly
313:12 315:14
struck
280:19
struggling
207:5
subcommittee
180:9 204:22 252:7
subcomponent
64:8
subject
99:1,9 100:13,14 176:12
234:8,9 251:12
subjects
269:13 323:6
submit
60:12,13 131:4,5,14 132:4
132:11 231:20
submitted
235:20
subpoena
5:7 15:12,14 302:4 332:2
subpoenas
16:13
subscribed
333:14
subscriptions
172:9
subsequent
49:18
subsequently
216:18
subset
124:6 133:8 217:3
substance
305:17
substantive
177:18
substantively
178:4

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

succeeding
318:6
successful
257:8 258:14
successfully
257:13
sued
246:9
suggest
258:4
suggested
189:22 257:18 258:12
suggesting
60:15
suggestion
285:18 287:6
suggestions
247:7
suitable
288:1,5
suite
74:22
summarize
305:19
supplemented
170:21
suppliers
134:21 135:4
supply
134:22
support
28:5 29:13 30:9 31:2 62:19
152:9 154:11,16 239:15
240:1 246:15,18 282:2
314:2 315:18 319:17 326:8
supported
29:9 152:17
supporting
285:9
supports
219:21 315:14
suppose
175:11 210:13 279:13
supreme
301:8
sure
18:8 19:19,21 60:2 69:17
111:12,15 143:21 144:8
206:4 274:10 279:19 289:5
305:13 311:3
sustainability
56:8,17 57:16
swear
12:11
sworn
12:13 333:14 334:6

[symbols - training]
symbols
162:15
system
30:20 40:18 76:12,13
175:16 189:1 190:4 201:4
224:11 317:7 325:1,2
328:8
systems
44:18 49:17
t
taken
10:16 12:19 115:18 127:21
138:19 159:21 186:12
203:19 274:2 280:1 293:14
311:7 334:4,7,12
talk
18:5,15 19:1 188:7 252:9
266:18
talked
18:6,18,22 161:6 264:6
talking
255:4 285:6 323:5
task
180:19 181:11,15,18,19,20
181:21,21 182:3,8 272:2
tasked
150:19
tbt
26:13
tc
123:4
team
190:2 293:13
technical
5:21 25:22 26:4 28:4,10
29:10,12 31:4 35:14,15
37:2,8 39:8 40:2,8 44:16
44:17 53:20 79:6 121:20
121:22 122:8 123:2,3
128:13 131:22 153:6
160:21 161:4,13 162:1,7
162:19,20 163:3,6,11,12
163:17,21 164:2,4 213:21
214:6 246:22 247:12,13
287:14 312:17 316:13
317:4 324:12 326:8 329:11
technically
80:18
technology
17:5 21:13 22:3 24:8,10
27:14,18,21 28:2 30:11
39:6 42:17,20 45:17 71:8
78:18 92:19 93:15 152:16
178:8 180:9 204:21 218:16
227:9 252:6 281:22 285:8

technology (cont.)
313:11 317:1
telecommunication
79:20
telecommunications
34:21
tell
12:13 49:19 50:2 123:12
232:16 236:5 237:4 238:10
telling
267:3
temporary
136:13
ten
55:16 186:2
tend
133:11,11
tended
133:12
tenure
56:7
term
33:17 43:11 46:17 49:10
53:15 54:6 61:22 74:6
84:13 96:17 109:10
terminated
318:21
terminology
130:18 162:14
terms
54:20 66:19,20 96:21 97:9
172:10 187:9 226:20
244:15 264:3 272:7 283:13
283:19 284:6
test
31:18 75:10 162:15
testified
12:15 328:10,14
testify
5:7 15:12 267:5
testifying
17:7
testimony
13:7 14:22 256:16 257:3
332:18 334:5,6,10
testing
1:3 3:2 10:17 74:11 79:21
80:1 162:15
text
59:12 60:8 136:13 188:14
195:3,10,11 196:16 218:20
224:6,12 239:1,16 244:8
thank
13:19 14:9 19:20 20:7
131:11 203:13 331:16
332:14,15

thanks
274:7
thing
202:8
things
324:18
think
47:9 63:10 66:11,19 78:13
92:3 116:4,9 123:14
144:11 147:7 169:3 175:11
181:21 187:4 207:1 221:21
221:22 222:12 228:2
231:10,11,16 232:6 233:6
233:8 243:5 257:17 259:18
263:9 264:5 266:20 267:4
274:12 276:20 278:2
280:18 305:18 310:17
311:1
thinking
258:1 274:17
third
119:11 153:22 204:14
236:12,13
thomas
55:8
thorsen
307:10 308:10
thought
90:1 149:5 248:8 268:22
thoughts
246:3
three
124:7 155:3 187:13 202:18
207:22 210:15 311:2
threshold
100:2
time
17:8 18:17,20,21 22:10
28:21,22 29:2,11 32:21
44:19 46:5,10 47:8 48:9,14
48:16 49:5,13,17 55:13,16
55:20 56:18 57:4,7 62:21
64:3 67:10 68:11 71:1,22
72:11,13 101:1 115:17,21
116:5 132:21 159:20 160:2
189:10,13 191:20 193:5
196:12 198:1 203:18,22
206:13 211:15 214:11,13
215:15 216:14 217:22
221:2,15 222:13 227:10
240:6 241:15 246:15,18
249:7 253:19 260:4,11
262:9,12,14 265:5 267:11
274:22 277:19,22 279:22
280:4 311:6,10,16,20
313:20 314:6 315:2 316:3

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

time (cont.)
317:9,14 319:7 320:3,12
321:5 324:18
times
124:7 127:5 167:10 180:10
timing
47:1 139:17,20 190:16,21
title
138:2,7 223:20 306:22
308:4 310:18 318:12
titled
164:17 252:12 256:16
306:10 310:14
today
11:10 13:7 14:22 19:22
20:5,18 22:17 28:8 50:18
77:22 78:14 96:15 103:11
116:2 117:15 165:6 212:10
271:22 302:5 323:5
today's
332:17
tolles
3:16 12:7
tool
220:1
top
50:8 55:18 69:21 80:13
111:11 119:9 132:16 154:3
160:22 177:17 238:18
263:5
topic
36:16 37:2 51:18 185:10
topics
17:6
total
332:18
touch
128:13
track
73:19 120:13 134:5 135:7
136:13,16,20 276:15,21
277:3,5
trade
5:22 23:21 24:14 25:6,7,8
26:4,5 28:20 29:1,14 42:7
47:10 55:1,2 60:6 63:13
64:15 79:6,7 131:21,22
160:22 161:3,4 178:2
329:11,12
trademark
181:21
trading
284:19
training
173:15,19

[transcript - videographer]
transcript
14:15
transcription
175:3,5 334:8
transfer
27:15,19,21 28:2 30:11
39:6 45:17 78:18 92:19
93:16 152:17 178:9 218:16
281:22 313:11 317:1
transferred
24:13
transparency
34:13 36:1 128:22
transportation
169:10 198:16 201:1
212:13 214:4,15,19 215:4
215:12 246:21 247:10
249:4
transportation's
246:4 305:5
travel
324:11,13
treaty
34:20
tremendously
257:10
trial
5:8
tried
200:17
true
136:17 333:4 334:9
truth
12:13,14,14
try
13:21 14:1 116:12 198:7
trying
116:14 174:21
tsc
1:4 11:4
turn
10:9 153:22 161:9,9 165:8
177:15 180:2 238:13
259:22 303:1 304:9 306:5
306:7 307:13 332:1
turning
308:19
twice
67:21
type
36:9 39:21 146:5
types
34:19 35:6 52:16 60:10,11
68:16 75:13 98:9 115:1
120:6,7

typically
31:9 34:5 96:4 124:8 132:3
175:14 222:12 293:14
typos
274:8
u
u.s.
16:12 21:19 30:15 31:17
41:2 76:11,12 121:20
122:2,8 123:2,2 140:18
143:14,15 144:9 147:21
166:17 170:3 178:2,2,11
178:17 179:9 192:18 195:9
208:15 210:22 212:12
217:4 218:5 219:12 232:2
249:9 260:21,21 261:11
283:18 330:10
u.s.a.
208:12 227:14
uh
217:1
unable
145:6 146:8,16 147:11
148:5,15 149:1,10 322:9
322:13,17
unauthorized
206:7,14
underlying
187:1
understand
13:6,11,18,20 14:4,9,19
16:20 18:13 19:14 23:7
28:8 33:16 39:22 57:21
63:12 97:1 110:2 170:15
170:18 175:14 200:4
223:18 231:15 242:19
249:19 262:1 265:2 268:20
269:6
understandability
60:10
understanding
17:2 18:9 35:10 46:11 91:3
139:11,14 163:10 173:3,12
189:4 209:1 213:10 246:8
254:7,15 255:8 258:19
261:15 262:18 270:7 273:5
275:7 284:17 314:5
understood
14:20 249:18
unidentified
155:1
union
29:12 34:22 51:9
unique
28:7 30:9 31:7 109:21

unique (cont.)
120:12 207:3
unit
10:14 115:16,20 159:19
160:1 203:17,21 279:21
280:3 311:5,9
united
1:1 11:2 21:18 22:5 29:19
30:1,1,2,4,5,6,20 35:7 37:6
40:18 76:15 97:19 98:3,11
98:17 100:8 133:9 210:4
313:8 315:16
units
332:19
universities
52:13 53:7 327:3
university
53:9,9
update
92:6,7 202:20 203:11
228:20,21
updated
92:1,2 198:2,4 201:14
203:5 216:15,18 227:10
252:4 261:17 305:22
updates
194:6 204:20 205:4,6
uphold
208:3
upper
124:16
urgency
271:21
use
28:3,9 33:17 39:8 74:6
96:21 102:11 126:2 134:13
134:13 152:20 170:10
171:22 172:10,11,19
173:10,21 174:6,8,9 175:6
175:11,14 176:3,6,7,12,13
176:20,21 226:17 233:13
281:17,20 282:1,6,10,12
282:15,17,18 287:7,14
315:20
useful
152:6
user
36:11 37:21 38:11,16
224:5,21,22 226:11,12,16
226:21
users
224:3 225:5,12
uses
111:9 171:3,5,14 172:2
174:22 195:2 283:2

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

usg
248:11
v
valid
246:13
validation
74:12 75:11
valuable
132:7,8
value
53:7 317:6
varies
40:5 168:18 324:4
variety
25:19,20 35:18 43:8 88:8
130:4,9 141:20 146:22
147:3 164:8 282:20
various
53:8 58:19 62:10 99:20
108:7 112:1 201:13 239:21
305:21 325:4
vary
36:8 39:22
vcs
195:5
venue
231:12
verbatim
101:10
verification
74:12 75:12
verified
193:9,12
verify
193:18
veritext
2:11 11:6,9,11 332:20
version
92:5,8 193:4 227:7 228:5
236:17 263:6 318:4
versions
59:10 195:17 227:4,12
318:6,6
versus
10:22 15:18 113:20 114:9
115:10 133:2,17 201:20
vice
4:20 20:19 65:18,19,21
66:1,2,8,10 67:2,5,10
116:7 123:19 281:2 286:19
291:2,4
video
10:11,15
videographer
4:22 10:3 11:10 12:10

[videographer - writes]
videographer (cont.)
115:15,19 159:18,22
203:16,20 279:20 280:2
311:4,8 332:16
videotaped
1:14 2:9
view
57:19 176:16,17 177:1,8
208:20 209:19 213:12,17
214:15 215:3
views
175:19 214:9
violating
246:10
violations
206:18
visibility
63:2,5
voice
239:7
volume
88:9
voluntary
28:4 34:6,7,9,11,16,22
35:20 36:18 37:5 39:9
93:22 94:8 102:11 107:21
108:8,17 112:2,16 131:19
152:20 181:14 182:14
195:5 218:17 239:14 240:1
258:9 281:17 282:6 287:7
287:14 312:20 314:4
327:20
volunteer
234:21 328:11
volunteered
234:3
volunteers
312:19 324:9,9 328:15
329:21 330:10
vote
58:8,11 60:21 61:2 63:19
68:22 69:9,13 239:7
voted
56:10,21 59:11
votes
69:10,11,16,18
voting
56:15 57:14,22 58:4 60:19
vp
21:9 23:3 70:2 71:10 73:14
vs
1:10
w
wait
43:3

wall
4:14
want
23:10 77:5 96:19 175:11
189:6 198:18 215:5 228:1
244:2 264:10 266:15 276:6
305:12,14,16 311:15 332:4
wanted
18:8 254:16,21 260:14
268:17
washington
1:15 2:13 3:8,18 11:7
269:10 270:3,4,8,14,21
271:1
watermark
224:11
watermarks
224:11
ways
43:8 108:7,16 112:1,15,20
113:3 130:4,9 141:21
167:3 169:20 274:13
282:21
web
206:18
webcast
248:7 250:2
webinar
297:12,13
website
53:3 80:20 82:8 84:2 86:11
128:20 182:17 213:10
222:22
websites
275:17
week
271:18
weeks
19:8
weigh
231:13
weighted
130:8
went
57:13 248:8
west
4:5 11:19
we've
116:4
whispering
10:7
white
27:5
wide
312:16 313:3 328:10,14

widely
35:7 328:8
willing
55:10
willingness
239:14,22
wise
3:5 12:4,4
withdraw
202:1,9
withdrawn
201:14
witness
4:11 12:1,11 26:10 28:13
30:18 31:13 32:8 33:8,20
34:18 36:20 37:8 38:21
39:5,21 41:9,22 43:19 45:6
45:16 47:17 48:6 49:22
50:8,13 53:1 54:5 58:4
59:2,21 61:20 62:18 64:13
64:22 65:12 69:2,21 77:5
77:11 78:4,17 79:18 82:14
82:22 84:1,9,16,21 86:10
87:1,15 88:6,18 90:1,11
91:12,17,22 92:15 94:20
95:5,10,18 96:2,11 97:7
98:20 99:18 100:12,20
101:21 102:19 103:14
104:5 105:3,16 106:3,10
106:16 107:20 108:20
109:17 110:14,22 111:6
112:10 114:1,12,22 117:17
118:1 119:17 120:11
121:10 122:6,18 125:20
126:21 128:9 129:21
130:17 131:17 132:14
133:6,20 134:5 135:17
136:19 137:15 138:18
140:2,11 141:6 142:10,21
143:11 144:7 145:1,17
146:3,12,21 147:17 148:9
148:20 149:5,13 151:18
152:15 153:5,19 154:21
155:16 156:3,12 157:18
158:12 159:4 163:20 168:8
169:3,9,18 170:18 171:9
171:17 172:7 173:3,18
174:5,15 175:9 176:1,10
177:6,13 178:15,21 182:10
186:10,21 190:11,16 194:1
194:17 195:16 197:15
200:21 203:15 210:1 213:5
215:10 217:13 218:10,15
219:5,18 221:6,20 222:9
222:17 223:6,12 225:9,20
226:5 228:1,13 229:8

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)

witness (cont.)
231:19 234:12 235:18
236:3 237:4 238:10 240:4
242:14 243:12 244:2 245:9
250:1,12 254:4,11,20
255:13 256:7 257:22 259:1
261:6 262:4 263:1 265:8
265:20 267:15 270:11,20
271:7 272:21 273:10 275:4
275:13,20 276:4 278:13
282:12 283:8 284:10 286:7
287:10 288:8 292:6 299:12
301:18 304:17 305:20
307:19 308:4,13 309:3,22
310:6,17 312:4,14 313:7
314:11,20 315:8,14,22
316:10,21 318:3 319:2,22
320:15 321:2 322:6 323:16
324:21 325:15 326:7,16
327:2,12,19 328:6,20
329:7 330:3,14 331:2,14
334:5,6,10
wixon
17:3,21 18:9,14,22 19:4
253:4,14,15
word
28:9 35:17 310:15
wording
189:6
work
20:17 48:3 50:20 51:11
180:8 247:11 274:20 275:8
316:19
worked
102:20 214:5 247:10
working
27:4 28:16 188:4 215:12
249:8 253:21
works
169:11 189:1 190:4 284:14
319:19
workshop
246:4 248:6,13,15,17
249:2 250:3
world
26:3 51:9 79:6 131:21
161:3 329:11
write
31:6 98:22 196:1 281:12
281:14,16 284:14 316:5
writer
87:2 92:16,22
writers
85:22 86:7,19
writes
194:22 251:8,9 257:6

[writes - ziegler]
writes (cont.)
273:18
writing
152:11 234:2 304:15
written
19:3 57:20 247:2 286:15
wrong
190:16
wrote
93:5
wto
26:13
y
yates
308:22 309:7
yeah
64:20 77:8 318:13
year
66:19,20 67:21 69:5,13
118:18 124:7 126:16,19
127:5 139:6 149:19 195:20
206:9 227:4 277:14
years
44:14,22 45:2 47:18 55:17
56:6 66:18 149:14,17
156:4 183:6 186:3 240:8
yesterday
18:3,4,18 19:2 256:20
yield
207:11
york
4:15,15
youtube
215:2
z
zero
324:8
ziegler
3:15,20 12:6,7

[8/15/2019] 2019 0815 SAUNDERS, MARY (VIDEO)