AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 44

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

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FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

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AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING

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AND MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM

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INTERNATIONAL; NATIONAL FIRE

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PROTECTION ASSOCIATION, INC.,;

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and AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING,

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REFRIGERATING, AND AIR-CONDITIONING

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ENGINEERS, INC.

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Plaintiffs,
vs.

CIVIL ACTION FILE
NO. 1:13-CV-01215-EGS

PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,
Defendant.

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30(b)(6) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

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STEVEN COMSTOCK

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March 5, 2015

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10:20 a.m.

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1075 Peachtree Street

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Suite 3625

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Atlanta, Georgia

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30309

Lee Ann Barnes, CCR-1852, RPR, CRR

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PAGES 1 - 199
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APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
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3 On behalf of the Plaintiff American Society of
Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning
4 Engineers, Inc :
KING & SPALDING LLP
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ANTONIO E LEWIS, ESQ
100 N Tryon Street
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Suite 3900
Charlotte, North Carolina 28202
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704 503 2583
704 503 2622 (facsimile)
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alewis@kslaw com
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On behalf of the Plaintiff National Fire Protection
10 Association, Inc :
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MUNGER TOLLES & OLSON LLP
THANE REHN, ESQ (via telephone)
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560 Mission Street
27th Floor
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San Francisco, California 94105
415 512 4000
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thane rehn@mto com
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On behalf of the Plaintiff American Society for
16 Testing and Materials d/b/a ASTM International:
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MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS
JORDANA S RUBEL, ESQ (via telephone)
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J KEVIN FEE, ESQ (via telephone)
1111 Pennsylvania Ave , NW
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Washington, D C 20004-2541
202 739 5118
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202 739 3001 (facsimile)
jrubel@morganlewis com
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jkfee@morganlewis com
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INDEX OF EXAMINATION
2 WITNESS: STEVEN COMSTOCK
3 EXAMINATION
PAGE
By Mr. Bridges
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INDEX TO EXHIBITS
2 Defendant's
Exhibit
Description
Page
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Exhibit 1076 Defendant's Amended Notice 9
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of 30(b)(6) Deposition of
ASHRAE
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Exhibit 1077 Technical Proposal
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Exhibit 1078 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1079 Terms of Use for ASHRAE org 101
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Website
9 Exhibit 1080 E-mail Chain
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10 Exhibit 1081 Multiple User License
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11 Exhibit 1082 Copyright License and
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Distribution Agreement
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Exhibit 1083 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1084 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1085 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1086 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1087 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1088 Multiple User License
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Exhibit 1089 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1090 License and Distribution 132
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Agreement
21 Exhibit 1091 E-mail Chain
132
22 Exhibit 1092 E-mail Chain
133
23 Exhibit 1093 E-mail Chain
136
24 Exhibit 1094 E-mail Chain
145
25 Exhibit 1095 E-mail Chain
149

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (Continued)
On behalf of the Defendant Public.Resource.Org:
FENWICK & WEST LLP
ANDREW P. BRIDGES, ESQ.
MATTHEW B. BECKER, ESQ.
555 California Street
San Francisco, CA 94104
415.875.2300
415.281.1350 (facsimile)
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

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10 Also Present:
Carl Malamud (via telephone)
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Spencer Bush, Videographer
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Exhibit
Description
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Exhibit 1096 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1097 Copyright Permission
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Request
6 Exhibit 1098 E-mail Chain
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7 Exhibit 1099 E-mail Chain
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8 Exhibit 1100 E-mail Chain
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9 Exhibit 1101 E-mail Chain
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10 Exhibit 1102 E-mail Chain
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11 Exhibit 1103 E-mail Chain
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12 Exhibit 1104 E-mail Chain
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13 Exhibit 1105 Membership Dues Revenue
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14 Exhibit 1106 Life-To-Date Sales for 90 1 171
15 Exhibit 1107 Projected Revenue
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16 Exhibit 1108 Sales by Customer Type L 178
17 Exhibit 1109 Sales by Customer Type
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Report
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Exhibit 1110 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1111 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1112 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1113 Letter dated 4/19/10
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Exhibit 1114 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1115 Various Reprint Requests 189
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Exhibit 1116 E-mail Chain
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Deposition of STEVEN COMSTOCK
March 5, 2015
(Reporter disclosure made pursuant to
Article 8.B of the Rules and Regulations of the
Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial Council
of Georgia.)
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of the
videotaped -- the 30(b)(6) videotaped deposition
of Steven Comstock. Today's date is March 5,
2015, and the time on the video record is
10:20 a m.
Would counsel please introduce themselves
for the record.
MR. BRIDGES: This is Andrew Bridges and
with me is Matthew Becker of Fenwick & West of
San Francisco, representing the defendant
Public.Resource.Org. And also participating or
listening in by telephone is Carl Malamud.
MR. LEWIS: Antonio Lewis, King & Spalding,
on behalf of plaintiff American Soci- -- Society
of Heating, Refrigerating -- Refrigeration, and
Air-Conditioning Engineers, Incorporated.
VIDEOGRAPHER: And counsel on the phone?
MS. RUBEL: Jordana Rubel, Morgan -- from

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INDEX TO EXHIBITS
2 Defendant's
Exhibit
Description
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Exhibit 1117 E-mail Chain
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Exhibit 1118 E-mail Chain
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Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, here representing
American Society for Testing and Materials.
MR. REHN: And Thane Rehn from the Munger
Tolles & Olson law firm, representing the
National Fire Protection Association.
MR. BRIDGES: I think that's everybody.
VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
please swear in the witness.
STEVEN COMSTOCK, having been first duly sworn,
was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY-MR. BRIDGES:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Comstock.
A. Good morning.
Q. How long have you worked for ASHRAE?
A. A little bit over 40 years.
Q. What's your current title?
A. Director of publications and education.
Q. How long have you had that title?
A. The -- I was director of publications and
communications in 1985, and then the education
component was added -- I'm going to guess now -- that
was probably about 2000.
Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken
before?

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A. Yeah, about 12 years ago I had one taken.
Q. Is that the only deposition?
A. That's the only one.
Q. What kind of case did that involve?
A. That was a personnel matter for our
organization.
Q. Did you testify at trial?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you have a chance to meet with
Mr. Lewis or other counsel before this deposition to
prepare for the deposition?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I'll ask you to look at Exhibit 1076 -(Defendant's Exhibit 1076 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- which is Defendant's
Notice of 30(b)(6) deposition of ASHRAE. Please take
a look at it, Mr. Comstock.
Do you understand that you are here today
testifying as a representative of ASHRAE on Topics 4,
5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 18, 23, 24, 30, and 31?
A. Yes, that's my understanding.
Q. When did ASHRAE start providing a reading
room for public access to ASHRAE's standards?
A. We made selected standards available for

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public access to some of its standards?
A. We were actually hoping to increase our
sales of those standards. It would be to the -- to
allow somebody to view those standards, but not be
able to download those standards or print those
standards. So that would drive demand for those -for those standards.
Q. What was ASHRAE's experience in that
regard?
A. It was -- our experience was that it was
relatively flat. It didn't have -- seem to have much
of a positive impact, nor in -- in that case did it
seem to have a negative impact.
Q. Does ASHRAE have information about how many
persons have accessed the standards in its reading
room?
A. We did. We changed the -- the -- the
software platform from which they were made available
for viewing. We originally used -- we originally
used a RealRead vendor-supplied system and then we
went -- they went out of business, I believe, and
then we switched to iWrapper.
But I -- I know for certain when we were
with RealRead, we would track the views. There was
no registration so we wouldn't know who those people

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read-only access, and I believe that was about 15
years ago. I don't have the exact date. It was in
that -- that range of time.
Q. How did ASHRAE select what standards to
make available?
A. These are our -- our most popular
standards, the ones for which there was the greatest
demand.
Q. How many standards -- strike that.
How many current standards does ASHRAE
publish?
A. I don't have the exact number. My
recollection would be in the neighborhood of -- of
75.
Q. How many of those standards are on ASHRAE's
reading room available to the public now?
A. At the current time, I believe there are 10
of those standards available.
Q. Does ASHRAE also make available through its
reading room earlier versions of those 10 standards?
A. We provide -- we provide the current
versions of those standards.
Q. But not the earlier versions?
A. I believe that's the case.
Q. Do you know why ASHRAE began providing

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were, but we did track views.
I think we do so with iWrapper, as well,
now, but I know for certain it was done with
RealRead.
Q. Do you recall any statistics regarding the
number of accesses of various standards?
A. I -- the -- the -- the most prominent of
those standards was 90.1, and I think if my
recollection is correct, I believe maybe 40-, 45,000
views of the 2010 version of that -- that -- that
standard over the course of the time it was made
available.
Q. And was it ASHRAE's experience that the
effect of the public access to the 90.1 standard was
somewhere between nothing and minimal?
A. That's -MR. LEWIS: Object to the form.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) You can answer.
A. I didn't see much of an impact one way or
the other.
Q. Does ASHRAE still sell earlier versions of
its current standards?
A. Yes.
Q. How much -- strike that.
Roughly how much revenue per year does

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ASHRAE gain from either sale or licensing of its
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standards for persons to either own or have access
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to?
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A. It will vary a little depending upon where
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documents are in -- in their various revision cycles.
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Looking at a little more granul- -6
granular level to build that, it would be 300- to
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$500,000 in print sales, another 300- to 400,000 in
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PDF sales, and then it -- it may be as much as -9
from standards component, maybe $800,000 in -- in -- 10
in -- in royalties network-type sales and another
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20,000 in CD sales.
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So if you add those up, that would be about
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the -- the total, with some variation depending upon 14
the -- the year -- where we are in the revision
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cycle.
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Q. That sounds to me like somewhere between 17
1.5 and $1.7 million in your total?
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A. That soun- -- that sounds accurate.
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Q. You said it depends on where ASHRAE is in 20
the revision cycle.
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By that, you're referring to the fact that
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ASHRAE, like other standards development
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organizations, updates standards every few years; is 24
that correct?
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say, are in the 1.5 to $1.7 million range.
What amount of that or what percentage of
that would be older versions?
MR. LEWIS: You have to let him finish the
question. Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Then -- then that would be -if I had to make a guess, it would be somewhere
between 5, 8 percent.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And what do you base that
estimate on?
A. I would base that on my having to make a -approve print runs. Typically, what happens is when
we run out of inventory and we have to replace,
replenish our inventory, those requests go through my
office. So that's -- that's something I would
routinely see.
Q. How does ASHRAE decide -- strike that.
Are you familiar with the concept of either
adoption or incorporation of standards into law or
regulation?
A. I'm not -- I'm not extremely knowledgeable
about that. I have a passing understanding of that
that I would have in my role as the publications
director, but that is a process I don't personally
engage in for ASHRAE.

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A. That's correct.
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Q. How does the revision cycle affect ASHRAE's 2
sales?
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A. There is an increase within the -- the
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first year of a revision cycle and then there'll be
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a -- a -- a -- a dropoff. However, there still
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continues to be demand for the -- for the -- the -7
the previous editions, which is why we sell them.
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So I don't know the exact nature of that,
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but there does -- there is a -- a jump that we would
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see in -- in those revision cycles after a new
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standard is released.
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Q. Do you have an estimate as to what
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percentage of ASHRAE's revenues from publications 14
relates to older versions of current standards?
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A. I really do not know. I know they're a
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component of that. Breaking that -- the older
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versions down, I'm not -- I'm not sure what that -18
that percentage would be.
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Q. If you had to make an estimate, what would 20
your estimate be?
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A. Older versions -- and this is -- could -22
could you repea- -- in terms of the total sales of
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standards?
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Q. Right. The total sales of standards, let's
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Q. But you understand that some standards of
standards development organizations get adopted or
incorporated into law and others do not get adopted
or incorporated -A. I do.
Q. -- into law; right?
Are you familiar with which ASHRAE
standards are incorporated into law?
A. I am not. I know some are.
Q. Do you know roughly what percentage of
ASHRAE's standards are incorporated or adopted into
law or regulation?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That's -- that -- I do not,
and that's an area that's outside of -- of what
I do.
I look at the -- the demand for the -- for
the standards and the -- the inventory and the
print runs and make sure that we have adequate
inventory to deliver our demand, but I do not
track what states or how many states or
municipalities may -- may -- may adopt or
include the standard.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are you aware of any
facts that would allow you to determine whether

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there's a relationship between sales or licenses of a
standard and incorporation of that standard into
law -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- or regulation?
A. No. We don't -- that's -- that's not a
metric that we use at all. I mean, I imagine, you
know, perhaps you -- you look at where sales are
from, but we don't do that. That's not part of our
business.
And I would think that the -- there's
people who do work in our industry do work across
states, across municipalities, but that's not a
metric that we -- we keep as part of our business
operation.
Q. Apart from keeping a metric, do you have
any, let's say, anecdotal experience observing that
incorporation of a particular ASHRAE standard leads
to a jump in sales of that standard?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Really, no. I have -- I
mean, there'll be times when somebody will say
to me, "Steve, how do I find an older version of
a standard in our bookstore," because we're -we -- we have to put on education, training

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standard before the revision has been on the reading
room -- strike that.
Is "reading room" a term that you use at
ASHRAE?
A. We do not.
Q. What do you use -- what term do you use for
the facility by which the public can view ASHRAE
standards for free?
A. I believe we call it free viewing.
Q. Free viewing?
A. Free viewing.
Q. When ASHRAE revises a standard and the
standard before that revision has been available for
free viewing, does ASHRAE replace the older version
of the standard with the newer version of the
standard for free viewing as soon as ASHRAE issues
the standard?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And does ASHRAE then take the older version
of the standard out of the free viewing facility when
that happens?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Is there a reason why ASHRAE removes the
older standard from the free viewing?
A. That's been our process going back to when

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related to that standard.
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So I have anecdotal questions that are
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asked or comments that are made to me along
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those lines, but nothing that's -- that -- that
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would, you know, trigger that back to specific
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sales totals.
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is there anything that
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can tie it to a general trend of sales, in your view?
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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. I mean,
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I -- we sell -- when a new standard -- a -- a
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new version of a standard is -- is published,
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there's interest in the market to buy that
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standard, and if stan- -- if older versions of
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standards are still relevant, we sell those
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standards and continue to sell those.
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) In what circumstances
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would an older version of an ASHRAE standard be 18
relevant in the marketplace?
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A. I assume that would be because it's -- it's
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referenced in -- in legislation or regulation or -21
or codes. I think it would probably depend upon what 22
the owners of the -- the -- the -- the owner of a
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building may have in their specifications.
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Q. When ASHRAE revises a standard and the
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we first started the free viewing, which is the -- 15
years ago or so.
And the -- the -- the reason for that is -is we always wish to have the most current
application of the technology used. So the -- the -the notion is that as a standard is revised, it's
a -- it's a better application of the technology
that's current at the time.
So we -- it -- it -- it's always been
our -- our preference to -- to have -- to -- to move
the market towards the more current version of the
standard because of the application of technology.
Q. Now, I think you mentioned a few minutes
ago -- and please correct me if I'm wrong because I
don't want to misquote you -- that there are some
times when people want older standards but they
aren't in stock and so there has to be a new print
order for those; is that correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Actually, our objective is to
never have them out of -- out of stock. It's -usually, I will be asked a question, "Steve, do
we have these in stock," and I will say, "Yes."
And we go through a process where we have
a -- a trigger -- this is what we do for all of

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our publications. There's a trigger point when
you get to a certain level of inventory, that's
when somebody in my group will say, "We're
running low. Do we wish to reprint this item?"
And then they usually will recommend a print run
and I approve that or -- or modify that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you print the previous
versions of standards in smaller print runs than the
current versions of standards?
A. Most likely.
Q. How many do you generally print in a print
run, let's say, for a seven-year-old standard?
A. Well, it -- that would be somewhat
dependent upon the standard. If it's -- if it's
90.1, for example, we do anywhere from maybe 500 to
750 copies.
But -- and -- and part of the -- the
printing technology has changed where print -smaller print runs are now more feasible with newer
publishing technology.
Plus when items are ordered for print from
our on-line bookstore, in fact, right now it's print
on demand. So in that case, there's always print
copies available because of the technology we employ.
This is more for inventory that we have for

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THE WITNESS: That's -- to my
understanding, that's correct.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are you familiar with the
analogous free viewing facilities of ASTM and NFPA?
A. I have never gone to their sites to
experience those, but I was aware they do offer free
viewing.
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in
the proceedings.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Whom do you consider your
counterparts to be at ASTM and NFPA?
A. At -- at ASTM, I would consider my
counterpart John -- John Pace.
At NFPA, I am not sure who my counterpart
is.
Q. Are there persons at NFPA with whom you
discuss publication issues from time to time?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: With -- with -- with NFP- -yes, I -- I have discussed publication issues
with NFPA, I think most recently three, four
years ago.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you recall whom you
had those discussions with?
A. Well, there were two people. One I had a

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off-line orders, orders that come in outside of the
bookstore.
Q. You referred just now to print on demand.
What does that mean in this context?
A. It -- it means when an order comes in
through our on-line bookstore, that order then is
transmitted to a -- to a copier and that document is
reproduced on demand as that order comes in,
packaged, and put in the mail, entered into the mail
stream for delivery.
Q. Does ASHRAE do that printing?
A. No. We use a -- we use a vendor, a
supplier, for that.
Q. Does ASHRAE provide a different type of
print on demand option where the customer would be
able to print it himself or herself on his or her own
equipment on demand?
A. When a customer purchases a PDF copy from
us, the customer has the -- has the ability and
the -- the license to make -- to make a copy for
themselves.
Q. I believe you mentioned that there's no
registration requirement for the free viewing;
correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.

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telephone conversation with and the other was a
e-mail exchange, one a lady. I think Michael was
maybe the fellow. I -- I don't recall. The woman
was maybe Julie. I'm stretching now, but...
Q. Do you recall ever learning that ASTM and
NFPA have registration requirements for their free
viewing facilities?
A. No, I think I have heard that over the -over the years of my knowledge of what they've done.
I wouldn't -- and I'm -- I wouldn't swear to the fact
that they've -- that they would have those processes,
but I -- I think that John Pace had mentioned to me
once they do that.
Q. Have you ever discussed with them the
relative -- strike that.
Did you ever discuss with them any
considerations as to why an organization would or
would not impose a registration requirement?
A. No, I never have.
Q. Coming back to 90.1, is that the most
popular standard that ASHRAE provides?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative). It is.
Q. How would you briefly describe the scope
and purpose of 90.1?
A. 90.1 provides guidance for the design and

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operation of buildings that are energy efficient.
Q. Is it true that some people credit 90.1
with significant energy savings at the national level
because of its implementation in building design and
operation?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What I hear mostly is -- what
I hear is it's -- there's a -- there's savings
that can be achieved over the previous editions
of the standard.
So when a new edition of that standard
comes out, it would be -- I -- I hear that it
will be a 15 percent energy savings over a
building constructed from the previous version
or 30 percent savings.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know how many
copies of 90.1 ASHRAE has sold or distributed or
provided access to? And my question is specific to
the 2010 edition.
A. For ASHRAE providing access -- and this
would be, say -- you said 90.1 2010; is that right?
Q. Right. And actually, by this I don't mean
through the free facility, I mean -A. So -Q. -- on a paid or --

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those sources.
Q. Do you have an estimate of something
analogous to a circulation figure for an -- sorry,
for ASHRAE 90.1?
MR. LEWIS: Object to form.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) You understand what I
mean by "circulation figure" in this context?
A. I'll -- well, I'll answer by saying I'm
also the publisher of our magazines -Q. Right.
A. -- so each of our magazines has a
circulation statement, which -- which verifies how
many copies of the magazine are put into the mail -Q. Right.
A. -- and made available -Q. Right.
A. -- or accessed online.
There is nothing analogous to that sort of
statement for our public -- for our standards
actively.
Q. And I understand that there's -- there's
not an industry standard circulation number as there
is for magazines when we're talking about books, but
just trying to get a sense of the -- the number of
persons that ASHRAE believes have interacted with

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A. Yeah.
Q. -- or -A. Yeah.
Q. -- on a pay basis.
A. Yeah. 90- -- my recollection is 90.1 2010
would be in the neighborhood of 7,000 to 9,000 copies
that -- that we would have provided access to. There
may be a few more -- a few other more outlying copies
that would be part of a CD collection that would
include -- that would have included 90.1, so maybe
that's another 500 or so.
Q. And did these numbers include numbers of
copies of 90.1 that distributors may have sold?
A. It -- it -- it would not include the -what we call the value-added distributors, the -which is -- reaches a big percentage of the market
for us.
Those would be the groups that would take
our standards and make them available to customers
along with the standards of other organizations, or
they could also sell -- just resell our standards.
And typically, those would be large percentage of
network licenses and so on.
So it does not -- to answer your question,
that number would not include sales from -- from

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90.1 in the 2010 edition, whether that is by physical
copy sale, whether it's by bundled or value-added
sale, whether it's by license, whether it's by some
subscription or network license, but I'm omitting
from this question the free reading facility.
MR. LEWIS: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: That would be pure conje- -I -- I do not know.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What -- is there a
standard retail price for the current version of
ASHRAE 90.1?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. How much is that?
A. That's what I'm -- I believe the ASHRAE
member price for the current edition of standard 90.1
is $99. I believe the list price is $120.
Typically, our member discount is 15 percent.
Q. Does ASHRAE have a figure of -- strike
that.
Does ASHRAE have an understanding of the
approximate revenue that it has gained from the sale
or licensing, direct or indirect, of the ASHRAE 90.1
standard?
A. We would have the information that would
represent the revenue from the copies that we sell.

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When it comes to the revenue that is
derived from the -- these value-added resellers, we
wouldn't -- we do not have a specific breakdown of
what component of that total rev- -- revenue is
attributable to 90.1.
Q. And I understand there may be no specific
breakdown because when somebody's selling a
compendium they don't charge on every piece of it,
but do you have an estimate, based on the relative
importance of 90.1 in those compendia, of what the
revenue stream is to ASHRAE that the ASHRAE 90.1 2010
standard provides?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: It -- just -- just when -when -- when you mention the indirect, would
that also include educational courses and other
activities that are based on the standard, as
well?
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Good -- good question.
No.
A. Okay.
Q. What I meant by "indirect" here is that
either ASHRAE sells to a ultimate purchaser or it
sells to a book dealer or a bookstore or it sells to
ANSI and ANSI sells it where the ultimate purchaser

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of -- of -- of the components, especially from
the big resellers that we have. If it's a
reseller that just resells specific documents
then we may see that, but that's a very small
percentage of the whole.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Who are ASHRAE's big
resellers?
A. The -- the largest one would be Information
Handling Services. Second largest one would be
Techstreet. Third would most likely be ANSI.
Fourth, MADCAD. Those would be the top four.
Q. And if you had to estimate what proportion
of your reseller revenue comes from those four, what
would that estimate be?
A. From those four? Oh, gosh, that would be
85, 90 percent.
Q. What is ANSI's [sic] yearly
publication-based revenue from resellers?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What royalties does ANSI
[sic] collect with respect to its standards?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Let me -- I'll clarify
the question.

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is not interacting directly with ASHRAE. That's what
I mean.
A. So now that I have achieved that
clarification, could you repeat your original
question, please?
Q. Certainly, certainly.
Do you have an estimate of what the total
revenue stream is to ASHRAE that the ASHRAE 90.1 2010
standard provides, taking into account all of the
channels of distribution and licensing?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I -- I really do not.
I mean, I -- I just know -- I -- I know the -or could derive the -- the amount of income from
the sales that we are responsible for, where we
make the sale, and it's a substantial, you know,
proportion. It's our largest revenue generator
in -- in standards.
I would intuitively think that -- that it
would also be a substantial re- -- portion of
the revenue that comes from the resellers, but
we just do not receive the information in
that -- that manner.
We receive our royalty, a royalty check,
and there is -- we do not receive a breakdown

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What types of royalties and for what types
of transactions does ASHRAE collect
publication-related royalties?
A. This is with -- just generally? Is that -Q. Yes.
A. Yeah. For the most part, my understanding
is that the -- the resellers are selling network
licenses and broad-based access to our standards
within companies. They -- typically, they would
reach a little different market than we would,
whereas, you know, they're for the most part, my
understanding would be, reaching larger corporate
entities, institutional entities, whereas our
membership is -- is more -- it's an in- -- ASHRAE is
an individual member-based organization. So our
market is typically those individuals.
Q. Do you know roughly how much revenue ASHRAE
receives in royalties from network licenses?
A. I -- I know the amount of -- I can estimate
the -- the amount of revenue that we receive from our
value-added resellers. I'm -- again, I -- I know
that they also will sell one-off copies from their -from -- that's one of their sales channels. However,
I do not believe that's a major component of their
sales.

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So I -- I would -- I would assume that
the -- the largest -- the most substantial revenue
stream that they provide to us in royalty comes from
network licenses.
Q. And how much would you estimate that to be
on an annual basis?
A. Do you mean the -- the -- the total revenue
or the part from -- or the part from network
licenses?
Q. Let's say the total revenue from
value-added resellers to begin with and then
understanding whether you can break out network -A. Yeah.
Q. -- licenses.
A. Our -- our total royalty revenue would be
roughly 1.2 million to 1.4 million.
Q. And when you identify your total royalty
revenue, that revenue number is separate from the
revenue number you gave me earlier about publications
revenue; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. So to understand the total -- I hate to use
the word, but monetization value of publications, one
would have to add in the publications revenue and the
royalty revenue; correct?

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revenue is both what we sell and the royalties,
what's the component of that that is
attributable to -Q. (By Mr. Bridges) 90.1 -A. -- 90.1?
Q. -- all versions.
A. Yeah. And let me just go through some math
as I'm -- as I'm speaking.
And this would not be any of the kind of
indirect educational or, you know, credibility and
other -- other ways that that may impact us.
Q. Right.
A. Yes, just give me -- okay. Now let me just
run through those numbers now.
Well, when it gets to the royal- -- the
problem is for the royalty part I'm really making
guesses, because it's -- because I don't have -- you
know, it -- it -- I -- I don't have those numbers,
you know, broken down as such.
Q. I'll just ask you for your best estimate.
A. Best estimate.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So the best estimate, if the
total was $450,000 -Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Out of the total.

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A. That is correct.
Q. What other components would be missing if I
had just the publication revenue and the royalty
revenue?
A. Now, we are speaking just -- of just
publications?
Q. Right, and really specifically standards.
A. Standards. Just running through our
financial statements in my mind. That -- that's it.
Again, there's educational components that
we may use standards in which -- but there's no -but sometimes like we include a standard in a
registration fee for a conference, so there's no
direct revenue from that standard.
But if you added together the royalty sales
and you added together our direct sales of
publications, that would represent our -- our total
publication revenue.
Q. Do you have an estimate as to what
percentage of that total revenue is attributable, in
your mind -- or in ASHRAE's mind, to all versions of
90.1?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So what percentage of our
total publications revenue, if that total

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A. Out of the total as an estimate, just
conjecturing.
Q. Is -- excuse me, I may have -- I don't
think I asked the exact same question. I may have
asked a similar question earlier. Forgive me if I
repeat myself because I'm working on one hour of
sleep.
Is 90.1 ASHRAE's -- I think -- strike that.
I think you said it was ASHRAE's most
popular standard; is that correct?
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What would you consider
the second most popular standard to be?
A. Second I would consider Standard 62.1,
which is ventilation requirements for buildings.
Q. What would round out the rest of the top
five, in your view?
A. Top five. Standard 55, which is a thermal
comfort standard; Standards 15 and 34, which relate
to refrigerant use and -- in air-conditioning and
refrigeration systems.
Q. I think, based on the number of years
you've been at ASHRAE, is it correct that you started
at ASHRAE before ASHRAE first published 90.1?

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A. My first job at ASHRAE was to edit the
proposed version of Standard 90.
Q. Of 90?
A. It was originally called Standard 90 when
it was first released in 1975. The .1 was added as a
variation at a later time.
Q. Did -- did ASHRAE take that work over from
some different predecessor?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, there was a
National Bureau of Standards. I've heard that
was -- that was -- that was underway.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And so had it published
an earlier standard that ASHRAE then updated and made
ASHRAE's own standard?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. I
don't -- I don't believe there was a previous
document in existence.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is it your understanding
that there was a previous process in existence and
ASHRAE took that over?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I thought I read
someplace that -- that -- that ASHRAE developed it as

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I want to come back to the reading room for
a second -- I'm sorry, the free reading facility. I
should use your terminology.
What functions can a viewer carry out at
the free reading facility?
A. When we used the RealRead platform, I know
it was -- it was just to view. So it was purely to
view, you did not download. And there was a -- at
some point in time, we added a "Buy Now" button, so
we put a "Buy Now" button there.
When we switched to iWrapper, my -- my
recollection is that that is pure viewing only and I
do not know if we've got a "Buy Now" button on -with the iWrapper platform, but I'm quite sure we do.
I can't imagine why we wouldn't. That was -- we
switched platforms -- I think that was two years ago.
Q. How do you spell "iWrapper"? Is it capital
I-W-r-a-p-p-e-r?
A. I think it's small i, capital
W-R-A-P-P-E-R.
Q. Oh, okay.
A. And I think -Q. Do you recall whether there's a text search
function that when somebody goes to the -A. I do not recall.

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some follow-on to something else, and I'm trying to
1
figure out what that is.
2
A. I think there was -3
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
4
THE WITNESS: I think there was a desire.
5
There was a need that was voiced that ASHRAE
6
then fulfilled that need by developing
7
Standard 90.
8
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know who it was
9
who articulated that need?
10
A. With -- within ASH- -- within ASHRAE now? 11
Q. No, no, whoever it was that initiated the
12
statement saying there's a need for something like
13
this -14
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
15
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- and then ASHRAE
16
fulfilled it.
17
A. I -- I -- I do not. I'm working from my
18
memory of presidential speeches of that -- of that
19
year, "presidential" meaning ASHRAE presidential -- 20
Q. ASHRAE -21
A. -- not President Nixon -22
Q. Right.
23
A. -- whoever was in office at the time.
24
Q. Right.
25

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Q. Do you recall whether there's a possibility
of selecting text for pasting?
A. I do not -- I do not believe there is. I
believe it's -- it's viewing, but I -- I'm not sure.
Q. Who is in charge of the technical aspects
of the iWrapper implementation?
A. I approve it. We -- when RealRead -- when
I received the notice from RealRead going out of
business, I was responsible for shifting us over to
another platform.
And so we -- I talked -- we use various
suppliers and vendors, and so one vendor who we use
extensively for publications work, we asked him what
his solution would be and -- and he recommended
iWrapper, which is a commercially-available -- I'm
not sure if that's Adobe or that's -- I think it's
probably Adobe, but -- but that's commer- -- so he
recommended using that commercially-available
platform.
And -- and my intent would have been to
replicate what we had with the RealRead
functionality.
Q. Who's the vendor that ASHRAE uses?
A. For -- for -- for this project, we used -used a firm iENGINEERING, which is outside of

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Washington.
Q. Who is ASHRAE's principal contact there?
A. Riaz Ahmed.
Q. R-I-A-Z A-H-M-E-D?
A. Yes. That's the first name and last name.
Q. Who at ASHRAE supervises the relationship
with iENGINEERING?
A. Well, at the -- approving the payment of
invoices and approving the initiation of work, it is
me, and -- and then there's a -- a gentleman in my
group who actually then works on a day-to-day basis
with vendor relationships. David Soltis is his name.
Q. How do you spell Soltis?
A. S-O-L-T-I-S.
Q. If a member of the public wanted to write
an article about the evolution of the 90.1 standard
over the last 20 years by showing a comparison
through, let's say, a redline, an electronic
comparison -- let me back up.
Do you understand what a redline is?
A. I do.
Q. If a member of the public wanted to write
an article about the evolution of the 90.1 standard
over the last 20 years by providing a redline of the
various changes from version to version, is there

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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And what would the
earlier versions be?
A. PDFs.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) PDF.
And if one wanted to trace the evolution
across four versions to produce one document with
annotations showing, for example, when each provision
entered into the standard and when various provisions
disappeared from the standard, would the person need
to get permissions to reuse each of the four
versions, according to ASHRAE's practices?
A. If they were doing this for their personal
use, then no, because that would be allowed for in
their purchase of the standards.
The permission would require -- would be
required for the extent to which that person would
want to make information available more widely other
than for personal use, and then there would be
considerations that would be given for amount of
content, so on.
Q. Well, what -- what if somebody wanted to
write an article criticizing the evolution and saying

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a -- what would the -- I'm going to start the
question again. Let me strike that.
If a member of the public wanted to write
an article about the evolution of the 90.1 standard
over the last 20 years by providing a redline of
various changes from version to version, what steps
would that person need to go through in order to
generate a comparison document?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: We currently offer for the
current version of Standard 90.1 -- .1 a redline
version that's available for sale. That's
something we only initiated a year ago, year and
a half. So we would not be able to provide that
document, if that's a -- if that's -- if that's
the question.
If they wish to reuse our content, then we
have a process that we follow for reprint
permission or request for -- for -- for use.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Leaving aside the
permissions process, how, from a technical
standpoint, would one be able to generate that
redline? Would one have access to earlier versions
in an electronic format that would be suitable for
applying a comparison tool to?

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that it had gotten off track and wanting to
illustrate the arguments by quoting substantial bits,
let's say two pages at a time for five different
instances.
According to ASHRAE's practices, what would
be required for the person -- for that person to be
able to do this?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Whether the article is
critical or not isn't part of our process of
granting permission for use of content.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Leaving that part aside,
then, what would the person need to do, according to
ASHRAE's practices, to get permission to provide,
let's say, four two-page excerpts showing the
changes?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: They would need to specify
what content from the standard they wished to
use, what -- how much content, what type of
content, and what the use would be, say an
article.
We do not ask what that article is going to
say, nor do we review that article before it is
used. That's not part of our process.

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So they would have to specify the amount of
content that they wish to use, what content, and
how and what that use would be.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Would ASHRAE give that
permission without charge?
A. We always use a balance in -- in -- in how
we approach reprint requests.
If I do not feel there's going to be a
negative impact on the sales of -- of a standard,
typically I will grant reprint permission use,
because I think it also promotes awareness of a
standard.
I should say that we also have an on-line
system that we use, as well, RightsLink. You can go
to our website and you can see that. But that hasn't
worked very well. That was my attempt at trying to
remove a little bit of the care and hand- -- well,
the time that has to go in with processing requests.
In -- in that system, it was a cookie
cutter, a certain amount of money for a certain -for a certain number of figures and so on. But
that's really not a very practical system and it's
just about -- we -- I think we still have the link
there, but it's really -- doesn't have very good
functionality.

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the proceedings.)
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of
Video 2. We are going on the record at
11:46 a m.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know roughly what
percentage of publications income comes from
government sources for ASHRAE?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know what government support ASHRAE
gets in the development or revision of standard -standards?
A. I am not aware of any funding received by
ASHRAE for development or the revision of -- of
standards.
Q. You're aware that government employees
participate in the standard development process?
A. I do. And -- well, I -- what I am aware of
is that there -- there may be individuals with the
government who purchase copies of -- of standards.
I'm not exactly sure of their role on project
committees, but -- but they are -- would be included
in the -- the customer base for standards.
Q. And you're aware that -- does the U.S.
government enter into any contracts with ASHRAE for
the sale or availability of standards?

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Q. And it sounds to me as though the reason
for that is that it wasn't flexible enough to
accommodate different use cases?
A. That -- that's correct. And -- and it's
hard to keep it up to date. We publish many
articles, we publish many standards, and so to try to
keep that database of permission -- so when somebody
goes in and they identify the -- the source of the
content, it was as much work for us to keep the
database up to date as it was to handle the
permissions personally.
Q. Do you have a dedicated permission staff?
A. My administrative assistant is the focal
point for permissions.
Q. What is your assistant's name?
A. Julie Harr, H-A-R-R.
MR. BRIDGES: If it's all right with you, I
ask that we take a break. We've gone just a
little bit over an hour. Normally I'd like to
go longer, but I'm working on sleep deprivation.
I'll try and keep the breaks short, but I may
need them every hour.
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of Video 1.
We're going off the record at 11:26 a m.
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in

Page 48

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A. We have had -- in -- in recent -- this is
in recent years, we've had three contracts I've been
engaged with related to the distribution of
standards, specifically 90.1.
Q. What were the contracts for?
A. Three -- first contract was for making
90.1 -- and I believe that was the 2010 version of
the standard -- available to ASHRAE members for -well, I -- available from the ASHRAE website for free
download.
And then there were two subsequent
contracts that were done in conjunction with the
International Code Council where actually they did
the -- the distribution, but inclu- -- which -- which
the distribution included one of their documents,
the -- what is called the IECC, International Energy
Conservation Code.
So -- so that -- that document was
provided -- distributed by ICC and included in that
package ASHRAE Standard 90.1 2010.
And then the third contract added 90.1 2007
distribution, and that was to a distribution list
provided to ICC from, in this case, Pacific Northwest
Laboratories, which was a -- a laboratory under
contract at the Department of Energy.

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Q. I'd like to go back to the beginning of
1
your answer, because I -- I didn't quite understand
2
it.
3
The first contract was for making the 2010
4
version of the standard available in some fashion and 5
I think first you said available to ASHRAE members 6
and then I think you said available from the ASHRAE 7
website for free download.
8
Is -- did you mean available not
9
specifically to ASHRAE members, but available from 10
the ASHRAE website for download?
11
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
12
THE WITNESS: I meant to say was available 13
for free download from the ASHRAE website.
14
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Who -- and under that
15
contract, who had access to the free downloads?
16
A. Anyone who logged into our website and
17
clicked on the option to complete that download.
18
Q. Oh, any person -19
A. Anybody could -20
Q. -- any person, country?
21
A. That's correct. Actually, in the world.
22
Q. In the world.
23
A. That's my -- as I say that, that's my
24
recollection, is it was not rest- -- I know it was
25

A. So that was how we did the -- knew when it
ended.
Q. How could you distinguish, let's say,
between a download and a simple view of the document
from ASHRAE's website?
A. There was no viewing associated with this
particular functionality. You just clicked on a box
that said "Download."
Q. Got it.
With what government agency was the
contract?
A. Our contract was with PNL, Pacific
Northwest Laboratory, which is a laboratory of the
U.S. Department of Energy.
Q. Did ASHRAE ever come to have an
understanding as to why Pacific Northwest Laboratory
wished to have that facility available?
A. This was part of the -- the time frame is
2011, and I believe this was part of the -- the
Recovery Acts, the National Recovery Acts that were
in place at that time.
And I was approached by somebody from PNL
as a -- to do that. I do not know what their -their motivations were except to make the standard
available.

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not restricted to members -- I misspoke at first -2
and I think it was open to -- to anyone.
3
Q. And that's what I was trying to figure out.
4
A. Yeah.
5
Q. Okay. So the first contract -- just to
6
summarize again, the first contract was for ASHRAE to
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make 90.1 available for free to the public by
8
download; correct?
9
A. That is correct.
10
Q. Was that contract for a limited period of
11
time or was it for -- what were the terms of that
12
contract?
13
A. There was a contract that had a -- a dollar
14
amount associated with it, and so there was a fee
15
that every -- every time a download was made, a fee
16
for that unit was charged. So once that total
17
contract amount was met, then the downloads stopped.
18
Q. Do you recall what the per-download fee
19
was?
20
A. I believe it was $15 a -- a document.
Q. Do you know how ASHRAE knew when a download 21
22
occurred?
23
A. Yes, because we had a -- a system that
24
would click -- keep track of the downloads.
25
Q. How --

Page 52

Q. Do you know how many downloads occurred
under that contract?
A. I do not, but if -- if it was the 15 per
download and the contract was $322,000, it would be
that division.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1077 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) My brain is sitting next
to me and my brain hands me important things from
time to time.
Mr. Comstock, I ask you to look at
Exhibit 1077.
Could you identify it, please?
A. This appears to be the -- the proposal that
I just -- I just spoke of. I think I did say 2010.
This document says 2000 -- 2007 version of that -oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, it says -MR. LEWIS: I'll just note for the record
that the document is two sided.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Yes, always. I think all
of our documents will be.
A. So it's the 2007 version, yes.
Q. Okay. Was this free download facility
something that ASHRAE proposed?
A. No. The -- we -- we were approached by

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PNL, to my -- to my knowledge.
Q. The -- just the format, it's in response to
an RFP or request for proposals.
Do you know what the RFP No. 140008
specified?
A. I -- I do not.
Q. The proposal envisioned that ASHRAE would
promote the free download program through targeted
e-mails to members of ASHRAE; correct? I'm looking
rough- -- just above the midpoint in that exhibit.
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know to what extent ASHRAE promoted
the free download program to the broader public,
apart from members of ASHRAE?
A. I -- we put notices on our website to -- is
my recollection. I believe we did news releases, but
I am -- that's an assumption on my part.
Q. And then you said there were two other
contracts; is that correct?
A. That's correct. Both of those also
involved versions of Standard 90.1 and then also
included a document, the -- the IECC that I
referenced.
Q. Were they on roughly the same terms as the
terms in Exhibit 1077?

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Now, the first agreement I believe was
$188,000, in that neighborhood. The second agreement
was $230,000. The -- the -- but the second
agreement, I think -- so the first one, it would be
dividing the 45,000 into that -- $45 into that total
amount. The second agreement actually included two
versions of 90.1, if I recall, and two different
versions of the IECC, so it could have been that cost
was $90 total in- -- $90 per unit into that $230,000
number.
Q. And just to clarify one thing.
In the last couple of answers, you referred
to the first contract and the second contract. If we
put them in the context of the other contract, that
would make these the second and third contracts?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. In your answer just now, when you
were saying first and second, in the broader scope,
you were referring to the second and third contracts;
is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. As a result of these contracts, did ASHRAE
observe any effect on its other sales or licenses of
the 90.1 standard?
A. These -- these three contracts all involve

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A. No. That -- that was a -- a different
arrangement. For that process, the documents were
sent in hard copy form to recipients who were
provided to us from the -- from PNL. And the
distribution was made by ICC, which is the publisher
of the IECC. ICC is International Code Council.
Q. Were the second and third contracts
contracts between PNL and ICC?
A. No. I believe they were contracts between
PNL and ASHRAE and then ICC was engaged to fulfill
the agreement.
Q. Do you recall the expected audience,
recipients, of the hard-copy publications in the
second and third contracts?
A. I believe the targeted audience for that
was code officials at state and municipalities.
Q. Do you recall quantities and financial
terms for the second and third contracts?
A. The -- the -- the -- the purchase price for
the 90.1 inclusion was the same as this, $15, if I
recall, and then there was a -- I believe ICC charge
for distribution of the IECC was also $15 and then
there was a $15 charge by ICC for printing, mailing,
inventory, distribution. So that was a total per
unit, that I recall, of $45.

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distribution of not the current version of the ASHRAE
standard, but the previous version.
Did we see any noticeable change in the
distribution or the sales of the -- the current
version? Nothing seemed to jump out.
Q. Did ASHRAE observe any noticeable effect on
the distribution, even of the earlier versions, apart
from -- from these contracts?
A. Intuitively, I would think there would have
been some impact, but I can't say -- we didn't
monitor that, so I have no evidence one way or the
other.
Q. So you don't know one way or the other
whether these contracts cannibalized other types of
sales of the same versions?
A. Yeah, I have no -- no evidence one way or
the other.
Q. Has ASHRAE entered into any other
agreements for public access or distribu- -- public
access to or distribution of its -- strike that.
Has ASHRAE en- -- entered into any other
agreements for broad public access to or distribution
of its standards, either for free or for reduced
price?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: Was your question by -repeat the question, please?
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Sure.
Has ASHRAE entered into any other
agreements to provide broad public access to or
distribution of its standards either for free or for
a reduced price?
A. At -- at times over the past -- not for
90.1, but for some other standards, a company may pay
a license fee to make a standard available if it
relates specifically to their products. That would
be a license agreement.
And that's very rare. I mean, it's -it's -- perhaps one standard every three to five
years would -- would be the case. But nothing with
government like was done here.
Q. Okay. What proportion of ASHRAE's yearly
revenues comes from the monetization of its
publications? Do you understand that term?
A. When you say "publications," do you include
periodicals?
Q. Good point, so I'm going to withdraw my
question.
But I just want to make sure -- I think you
understand my -- my word "monetization" in this

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there would be books. And I believe that -- that -that covers it.
Q. Roughly what percentage of ASHRAE's
expenses pertain to the organization and supervision
of the standards development process and the costs of
publication and the costs of administering the
permissions and distributions and the like?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can speak to the side of
that process that deals with the -- the -- the
publications part. I do not know what the -the costs would be to support the development of
the product. My role begins when we push that
standard out to the -- to -- to the marketplace.
What would be -- I -- I'd probably say
there are staff salaries that would be
attributable to standards activities from the
publication side of things, production, so on.
If you add portions of people's time together,
we're probably speaking of four people from the
publications side.
And then the -- the cost of the
infrastructure for the book- -- for the
bookstore, the on-line process, and warehousing,
and finally the -- the -- the work that may be

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context. You nodded, but the court reporter can't
take nods down.
Do you understand, broadly speaking,
monetization of publications through revenue sources
like purchasing and licensing and the like?
A. Yes.
Q. And royalties?
A. Yes.
Q. What proportion of ASHRAE's yearly revenues
comes from the monetization of its standards as
publications?
A. I'm making sure I'm doing the math right.
Q. That's fair. That's fair.
A. Let's see. It would be -- directly
attributable to standards would be approximately
10 percent.
Q. How else does ASHRAE earn revenue, other
than through the monetization of its standards?
A. Membership dues, conference registrations,
advertising, subscription sales, educational course
registrations, certification, exposition income.
And when you said "publications," if -- so
in addition to publications, we have books. So
books, if -- if -- if -- if that's -- if you
distinguish between standards in your questions, then

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involved in -- in -- in managing that on-line
bookstore.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are you able to estimate
a percentage of ASHRAE's expenses involved in what
you've just described?
A. Boy, and I -- and I -- I left -- the
easiest numbers, the printing costs, I just left out.
Q. Right.
A. The cost to print -Q. Right.
A. -- a unit would be included.
You know, if -- if we have a hundred -- I'm
just guessing now. If you have a -- I said those -those individuals, you know, we have a hundred
employees, so -- with various activities.
So I'd say 5 percent of labor and then you
figure the -- the cost of that infrastructure,
standards amounts to a large portion of it. And
permissions, a lot of that is attributed to
standards. That's maybe -- that part, $200,000.
Q. 200,000 to the -A. For the -- just the expenses of doing those
things. The bookstore, I mean, you know, processing
orders, apart from the -- the -- the labor.
Q. So you're saying 5 -- 5 percent of the

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staff count plus about 200,000 in expenses?
A. That's correct, for the portion of the
standards work that is involved in what we do, which
is the distribution of those to the -- to the
marketplace.
I -- probably in terms of context, our
bookstore is actually -- we do that in partnership
with an outside group, so that is a -- we pay fees
associated with -- any time orders are taken through
our bookstore. So there are -- are costs that we
have through the -- through the vendor for operation
of our bookstore.
Q. And just to be clear, I think you either
said this or started to say it. I think I didn't
hear it completely.
The expenses you just described were from
that point in the process where your part of the
organization takes over and pushes the standards out
to the public. These numbers did not include the
costs and expenses and staffing that ASHRAE invests
in the creation and revision of the standards
themselves; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Has -- do you understand

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Q. Is that David Hollman?
A. It was somebody with Carrier, Carrier
Corporation.
Q. Carrier UTC?
A. Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Q. Does the name David Hollman ring a bell to
you?
A. I -- I think so.
Q. Do you know whether he's an ASHRAE member?
A. I do not know. Carrier's -- there are many
employees with -- with -- from -- of Carrier who are
members of ASHRAE.
Q. Do you recall any other information ASHRAE
has regarding any potential monetary loss as a
consequence of defendant's conduct?
A. I have no firsthand knowledge of -- of
that.
Q. Do you have any other information that you
might have acquired secondhand?
A. With regard to -Q. Monetary losses.
A. -- this -- this -- in this case?
Q. Caused by defendants, yes.
A. No, I do not have any -- any other
knowledge of that.

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what a subvention is of a publication?
1
A. I do not.
2
Q. Has ASHRAE ever received any grants to
3
support the publication of any particular standards?
4
A. I have no knowledge of ASHRAE receiving
5
funds for that.
6
Q. Is ASHRAE aware of any monetary losses that 7
it has suffered as a consequence of the defendant's
8
conduct in this case?
9
A. I can't speak to any -- any tracking of -10
of losses. And anecdotally, people say if -- they've 11
asked me if a standard is available on the Internet,
12
is that -- is that allowed, is that permissible, so
13
we -- in those cases, we will seek to remove them.
14
But we don't -- we -- I don't have any
15
record of tracking such loss of -- of revenue.
16
Q. Apart from tracking it, does ASHRAE have 17
any information regarding monetary losses it has
18
suffered as a consequence of defendant's conduct?
19
A. I -- I do recall there was one message we
20
got from somebody who refer- -- I think it was
21
somebody with Carrier Corporation, if I recall, who 22
referred to -- who referred to that. I don't know if
23
they had intended to purchase or not, but that was
24
one specific case I do recall.
25

Page 64

Q. Are you aware of any persons being misled
as to a relationship between the defendants and
ASHRAE?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. Are you aware of anybody being confused in
any way as a consequence -- strike that.
Are you aware of anyone being deceived in
any way by defendant?
A. I am not aware -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: -- of that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are you aware of anyone
being confused in any way by any conduct of the
defendant?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: If I recall, I think that
was -- the fellow from Carrier was asking me a
question of whether that was an authorized use,
perhaps. I can't remember the exact wording,
but there was a -- a question that I was asked
of that -- of that person.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are you aware of any
other instances of anyone being confused in any way
by any conduct of the defendant?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.

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THE WITNESS: Not -- not specifically.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know whether
ASHRAE is aware of anyone being confused in any way
by any conduct of the defendant?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I am -- that's -- if so,
that's not been passed on to me. I -- I'm not
aware of that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Apart from Mr. Hollman
and the other -- strike that.
Apart from Mr. Hollman and other standards
development organizations, has anyone complained to
ASHRAE about the conduct of the defendant in this
case?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not know if anyone's
complained to ASHRAE. The only instance I'm
familiar is -- familiar with is that one.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Whom I think is
Mr. Hollman.
A. Mr. -- the fellow from Carrier.
Q. Right.
And just so you know, we're going to dig up
what we think is the relevant document. We just
don't have it. We'll probably have to print it out,

1
some ramification for us, but I can't point to a
2
specific claim that was made.
3
MR. BRIDGES: I think we've gone about an
4
hour. Why don't we take a lunch break now.
5
I'll just tell you that I don't anticipate using
6
the full seven hours in case you're worried
7
about timing.
8
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
9
VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record
10
at 12:24 p m.
11
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in
12
the proceedings.)
13
VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video
14
record at 1:43 p m.
15
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Good afternoon.
16
A. Good afternoon.
17
(Defendant's Exhibit 1078 was marked for
18
identification.)
19
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, during the
20 morning session, you had mentioned communication from
21 someone connected with Carrier; correct?
22
A. Correct.
23
Q. Please look at Exhibit 1078 and tell me
24 what that exhibit is.
25
A. This is an inquiry that we received from a

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but I'll ask you to look at it. I'm not holding that
back for some reason.
Is ASHRAE aware of any harms that it has
suffered in any way from the conduct of the defendant
in this case?
A. We always try to protect our copyright.
Whether I'm aware of any specific instances that have
been brought to my attention about the -- the conduct
in this case, I can't say I'm aware of that, but we
do have a process we follow where we protect our
copyright, which we do consistently.
Q. I understand that.
Has ASHRAE suffered any harm to its
reputation as a consequence of the defendant's
conduct in this case?
A. I can't say at this point that ASHRAE has.
Q. Has ASHRAE encountered any communication in
which a person informed or suggested to ASHRAE that
ASHRAE would lose a sale of a standard because of the
defendant's conduct in this action?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can't recall receiving any
such messages or being engaged in such
conversations. It's intuitive that if our
documents are available, that there would be

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person with a Carrier UTC e-mail address noting that
he found an ASHRAE document published at Resource.org
website.
Q. Was that the instance you were referring to
in your testimony this morning?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you recall whether there was any other
communication with Mr. Hollman about this topic?
A. I do not recall any further exchange except
what's represented here.
Q. What is Carrier?
A. Carrier's probably -- well, one of the
largest air-conditioning equipment suppliers in the
world with a global -- global outreach, founded by
Willis Carrier, the so-called father of
air-conditioning, if you would.
Q. That actually reminds me of -- the
perspective you gave on that question reminds me,
what was your background before joining ASHRAE?
A. I worked for a newspaper after graduating
from -- from college. Graduated from a -- from a
school that had a very strong engineering program. I
chose not to go into engineering, went into -- worked
for a newspaper and then did that for a short amount
of time and then took an editorial position with

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ASHRAE.
Q. What newspaper were you working for?
A. Bergen News.
Q. Bergen County, New Jersey?
A. Bergen County, New Jersey, yes.
Q. And you mentioned you graduated from a
school that had a very strong engineering program.
Which one was that?
A. Lehigh University in Bethlehem,
Pennsylvania.
Q. So you had come to -- you came to ASHRAE
from a publishing and -- from a publishing background
with a technology slant in the publishing?
A. With a familiarity, to some degree, of
engineering, but it was mainly with an editorial
background.
Q. To what extent -- strike that.
Earlier today when we were talking about
revenues, I think you were distinguishing between
revenues that ASHRAE receives directly from the sale
or licensing of publications and other revenues that
may in some way involve the publications, such as
training programs where a copy of a standard would be
furnished.
Do you recall that?

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five -- a total of five days of training, which is
a -- an intensive HVAC design training program, and
much of that content deals with Standard 90.1
content, Standard 62.1 content.
Q. What other revenue-generating activities
does ASHRAE engage in, apart from the publication
sales and licensing and the education offerings you
just mentioned?
A. Do you mean with a direct or indirect tie
to standards, for example?
Q. Yes.
A. The -- the magazine will -- our -- our
principal magazine, which is a -- a trade
publication, B-to-B publication, ASHRAE journal
will -- will have -- will be quite often articles
about ASHRAE standards there.
So that -- that is always -- when we have
topics related to standards, those are often articles
that we will promote to our -- to our advertising
base.
Q. What other activities does -- strike that.
What other revenue-generating activities
does ASHRAE engage in relating to -A. We have -Q. -- standards?

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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
1
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
2
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'd like to explore for a
3
little bit what activities ASHRAE engages in that may 4
touch upon standards, apart from the sale or
5
licensing of standards.
6
So education is one; right?
7
A. Correct.
8
Q. What types of education offerings does
9
ASHRAE provide?
10
A. We -- we offer a -- a varied program. We
11
really take seriously trying to help with the
12
application of the standard, ensure the standards are 13
applied properly.
14
And so that consists of instructor-led
15
training that we will provide, either -- typically,
16
three-hour or six-hour courses for which there are
17
registration fees, and we also will have web-based
18
learning programs that are available, which would be 19
e-learning experiences that are available on demand. 20
And many of those courses deal with
21
applications of -- of standards, and specifically
22
there's -- there's quite a few courses that would
23
deal with topics related to 90.1.
24
And -- and we also offer a -- a -- a
25

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A. We have some electronic products, for
example, that are based on ASHRAE standards that -that -- apps that are based on content and ASHRAE
standards specifically. So we offer those types of
products for sale.
Q. What are some of the apps?
A. For -- related to 62.1, there would be a -a ventilation rate effectiveness app that we have
available, a duct-fitting app and a duct-fitting
database. However, that probably relates more to our
hand- -- that relates more to our handbook than to
standards.
Right now, we're developing an app for 90.1
compliance.
Q. Anything else in terms of standards
relating to revenue-generating activities?
A. Users manuals.
Q. How are they organized? In other words, is
there a user's manual for each standard?
A. Not for all the standards, but the more
popular standards, the more complex standards, we
have users manuals to assist with their appropriate
and proper application.
Q. I assume there's a user's manual for 90.1?
A. There is.

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Q. What other rev- -- revenue-generating
activities does ASHRAE engage in pertaining to
standards?
A. We've covered royalties. We've covered the
sales of the documents. We've covered the articles
that would impact the advertising, the courses, the
ancillary support documents.
I could imagine at one -- at -- some
extension of that could be either sessions that are
presented at our conferences that would deal with
90.1, for which -- for which there would be
attendance interests that would be generated for
that.
I believe that -- I believe that would
cover the -- the -- the potential for -- for revenue.
Q. Does the sale of -- strike that.
Does the sale and licensing of standards
subsidize other ASHRAE activities apart from
standards development -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- and publication?
A. All of the revenue flows into a single -single source. There's some standards that are -are very low-selling standards, so there are -- so it
would be fair to say that some -- if a standard

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that are -- are -- are deemed by peers to have been
successful. They're developed by people who are
recognized by their peer -- peers as being
knowledgeable in their respective fields.
So it provides standards. And especially
the -- the ASHRAE handbook really provide -- they
provide solutions. They -- they -- they incorporate
new technology that's available in products and
equipment and assist designers as to what new design
options may be available because of new products in
the marketplace.
Q. You use terminology that I hear frequently.
I often push back at it a little bit wherever I hear
it, so don't take this personally.
But I've never quite understood what
"solutions" means, because it's often a very vague
term. Sometimes it's a liquid in a bottle; okay?
That's not what you meant here.
How else would you describe what you're
referring to as solutions here?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: One of the things that I've
noticed in the industry as an editorial person
is that there's so many different technologies
that can be provided that are available to

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generates more revenue, that helps support those
activities that don't have revenue streams that would
cover them.
Q. There's no requirement that each activity
fully self-support itself?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Our -- our obligation's to
advance the technology. We -- we -- there are
some items that are needed, but they have a
difficult time finding the financial support to
carry them forward.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And in your last
statement, you said, "Our obligation is to advance
the technology."
Is that a summary or a reference to
ASHRAE's mission?
A. In our bylaws, ASHRAE's organized to
advance the arts and sciences of heating,
refrigeration, air-conditioning, ventilation, and
their allied arts and sciences.
Q. How does ASHRAE's development and
publication of its standards advance the technology?
A. Because it sets a -- a standard for
practice. It incorporates through user experiences
those solutions to technical applications that are --

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maintain air in a building, whether it be
conditioned air at a particular temperature or
air that's free of contaminants. There's many,
many different methods of applying technology,
different types of technology, to provide a -an air-conditioning -- HVAC system in a building
or a refrigeration system.
And so designers have more choices
available to them than ever before, so part of
the role that ASHRAE provides in offering
solutions is to help guide those engineers to -to provide the appropriate -- the -- the
appropriate application of technology which best
solves the design problem that they face.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Thank you for that
explanation.
I spoke with ASHRAE counsel during a break
about your testimony earlier today about the reading
room.
Did you have any clarifications that you
wanted to make about the functionality of the reading
room? I'm sorry, about the functionality of the free
viewing facility.
A. Yes. I -- in -- in -- in checking that
point, I understand now that there's search

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capability that you can apply in our free viewing
capability documents.
It's still my understanding that you cannot
cut and paste from those documents, but you are able
to search and view.
Q. Thank you.
For the free viewing facility, you
mentioned that one does not have to register; is that
correct?
A. That is my understanding.
Q. Does someone have to agree to terms of
service in order to engage in the free viewing?
A. I do not believe so.
Q. Moving away from free viewing now to sales
of physical documents, does ASHRAE impose any
obligations on the purchaser of standards in physical
form as a condition of that transaction?
A. If in paper form -Q. Right.
A. -- no.
Q. What about the sale of electronic access to
standards? Does ASHRAE impose any obligations on the
purchaser of standards in that fashion as a condition
of that transaction?
A. In -- in a legal sense, "obligations" means

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Q. Thank you for clarifying that.
Again, regarding individual purchases of
PDFs, can you think of any other terms and conditions
for that type of sale?
A. I cannot.
Q. So we've just talked about terms and
conditions for personal access to electronic
documents.
What other types of transactions does
ASHRAE engage in with respect to electronic access to
AS- -- ASHRAE's standards?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: We have CD products that
would include standards. There would be a
message that has an agreement that you would
have in accessing that CD, which would be
similar in -- in wording, that this is for
personal use only.
And then network licenses, although we do
not direct- -- we do not directly sell network
licenses ourselves, those are done by
third-party -- those value-added resellers that
I referenced before.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Apart from the ones you
just discussed, what other types of transactions does

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that -- restrictions?
Q. Well, that's a good question. I'll get
there, because that's not exactly what I had in mind.
Does somebody have to promise to do
something or promise not to do something in order to
purchase electronic access to standards that ASHRAE
has published?
A. My recollection is that they would agree to
certain terms and conditions when making a purchase
of an electronic document.
Q. Do you recall what some of those terms and
conditions are?
A. I believe those terms and conditions would
be that the document is for personal use only, may
not be copied nor distributed to another party.
Q. Anything else?
A. Perhaps there is store -- you're not able
to store unless it's for your personal use. I can't
recall that exact wording, but the notion would be
that you're not able to put it into a cloud from
which other -- or a company network from which other
people would be able to gain access.
And I should say we're -- I'm not speaking
of network licenses now, I'm speaking of an
individual purchaser of a PDF document.

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ASHRAE engage in with respect to electronic access to
ASHRAE's standards?
A. CDs, PDFs, network through our resellers.
I believe that's it, those -- those three areas.
Q. What -- strike that.
Do the terms and conditions associated with
the sale of CDs match i- -- identically the terms and
conditions associated with the sale of physical
documents?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The wording would not be
identical. The intent of what is conveying
the -- the notion and concept this is for
individual use would be consistent among the
terms and conditions.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Actually, I think I
misspoke. I may have given you a misleading
question, so your counsel was wise to object.
Because I think you said that there were no
terms and conditions associated with the sale of
physical documents; right? I think I should have
meant PDFs, so let me start all over again.
Am I correct -A. Yeah, I think I -- I believe I said -- I
believe I said paper.

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Q. Oh, paper, but -- but did you mean PDF?
This is confusing enough. I'm just going
to -MR. LEWIS: I'm just going to throw an
objection in there.
MR. BRIDGES: Yeah, put an objection in
there.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'll -- I'll move on and
give you a better question.
A. Okay.
Q. I think you said there were no obligations,
terms and conditions, on the sale of paper documents.
A. I believe that's what I said and I believe
that was the case.
Q. So let me rephrase this question.
There are terms and conditions associated
with sales of electronic access to PDFs that users
can download; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. There are terms and conditions associated
with the sale of standards in an electronic media,
such as CDs, where the media are physically delivered
to the customers; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. How do the terms and conditions with

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license has been purchased.
Q. When a third-party reseller delivers ASHRAE
products to customers for network uses, does a
reseller impose terms and conditions on the
purchasers?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And to the extent the reseller is reselling
matters that pertain to ASHRAE's standards, does
ASHRAE dictate the terms and conditions of the
customer's use of ASHRAE's standards?
A. Typically, we do not go into great detail
about the terms and conditions statement.
Often -- and we have maybe 10 such
agree- -- maybe five such agreements -- the -- the
language may actually be part of the agreement, part
of the contract with the reseller.
In other cases, it may be something
generic, such as the -- the reseller will provide
digital rights management, controls over the
distribution.
But I would dare say for all the
agreements, there's a -- there's some language that
says the -- the -- the -- the reseller is going to
apply prudent and appropriate levels to ensure
protection of the documents.

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respect to those two categories differ from each
other?
A. The intent is -- would be similar, in that
it's -- they are both meant for personal use.
There may be some nuances of the platform
that are involved with that delivery that may require
some differences in the specific wording.
Q. Then take me a step further.
How do the terms and conditions with
respect to network licenses differ from the terms and
conditions that apply to either PDF delivery or CD
delivery?
A. For network delivery, probably -- first of
all, ASHRAE doesn't deliver those products to -- for
network uses. Those are done through third parties,
and I am -- I'm sure there are variations among those
third-party resellers about those terms.
They may relate to the type of network
license that's purchased, for example, is it
simultaneous -- is the license based on simultaneous
users? Is the license based on sites? There could
be a wide spectrum of what the use is.
The intent of all those licenses, however,
is to restrict the access to the people -- number of
persons, number of stations, for which the -- the

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Q. Does ASHRAE approve or review terms and
conditions that the reseller imposes on its customer
when its customer purchases electronic access to an
ASHRAE standard?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Typically, we do not.
However, sometimes those terms are in the -- are
in the agreement that we have with a reseller.
In terms of -- of our bookstore, which
is -- which is -- is managed by a third party,
which is Techstreet, for that bookstore, we
would review what those terms and conditions
are, since that bookstore is on our site.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) When ASHRAE sells CDs of
its standards, does that sale come with a license to
the purchaser?
A. It has an agr- -- a user agreement. I
guess that would be called a license.
Q. Does ASHRAE sell CDs for multiple user use?
A. At the current time, I do not believe
our -- we have one CD and I do not believe that one
CD is a network option. It is meant for personal
use.
Q. I know I touched on this earlier, but I
want to come back and ask the question in a way that

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ties very closely to the notice of deposition.
Is ASHRAE aware of any consumer confusion,
mistake, or deception caused by Public Resources'
posting of ASHRAE's standards, apart from whatever
you discussed this morning?
A. I have no knowledge other than what I
discussed this morning.
Q. A similar question, but phrased slightly
differently.
Does ASHRAE have any awareness of any
consumer confusion, mistake, or deception caused by
the appearance of ASHRAE's standards that Public
Resource has posted?
A. Except for what I stated this morning, I'm
not aware of any other.
Q. Does ASHRAE have any special licensing
terms with respect to its standards for particular
types of users?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) By -- for example, does
it give different terms for the sale or license of
its standards to public libraries or to universities
or to professors?
A. Our licenses would be -- our licenses would
be handled by the resellers.

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Does ASHRAE have different terms and
conditions for licenses of standards according to
whether the standards are incorporated into law or
regulation or not?
A. No, I cannot think of any -- any difference
for that.
I -- I did think of one other thing I
should say.
Q. Go ahead.
A. I -- for example, I can -- back to a case
like professors, which you mentioned, there may be a
case where some group is writing another standard and
that standards writing group will ask can they make a
standard of ours available for reference on that
association's website restricted to members of that
committee. There's cases where I would probably
grant that, as well.
Q. That would be something as to which you
would apply your discretion and custom tailor
something, rather than having a -- a set alternative
for that type of content?
A. Yes. Usually, that -- that would come in
through the channel of a reprint permission, may we
reprint that standard. And as corollary to that,
they say, "Well, instead of sending us paper copies,

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When it comes to professors, there might be
some cases where we would allow some content to be
used in course packs, for example. I'm not sure if
that borders as much on reprint permission as it does
a -- as a network license, but certainly I do receive
requests from instructors to use content in their
classes.
If -- sometimes if it's explained to me
that the professor would put it on some sort of
internal network restricted solely to students who
are registered for that class -- and, typically,
these would be professors who are members of ASHRAE
and have -- I've interacted with over -- over the
years -- I would typically grant that. There may be
a fee that we would charge. Again, it would depend
upon was it an entire standard they were going to
use.
So I -- I think there's -- until you said
"professors," I think there are cases where we would
have some different terms for professors. But if a
university buys a product for a -- for a university
network, that would go through one of the resellers.
Q. Does ASHRAE have different terms and
conditions for licenses according to whether -strike that.

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can we put it on a -- a restricted intranet available
only to the members of the committee writing the
standard so they have reference?"
So there are instances where we've -- we've
done that sort of activity, which I apply my judg- -judgment for in granting.
Q. Does ASHRAE have different terms and
conditions for governmental agencies with respect to
the licensing of ASHRAE standards?
A. No. Again, that would be handled through
our -- through our resellers and they would apply
whatever their -- their sales principles are.
Q. Would that be true -- strike that.
But the resellers resell only networked
standards, right, network access licenses?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: For the most -- they also
will -- will sell single copies of documents if
they have retail stores, if you would.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Okay. The resellers
don't sell CDs; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. I guess my question -- I'll ask it another
way just to make sure I'm getting the point out.
Do governments get any different terms of

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access to ASHRAE's standards from the terms available
to the general public?
A. No. However, we do have a -- a price -- if
somebody is a code official and writes to us making a
request for purchase as a code official on their
letterhead, there is a -- a discount category that's
available to them as a code -- as an individual code
official.
Q. What do you mean by a code official?
A. I've never explored it all that -- that
detail.
The -- it would be somebody who works for a
code enforcement body that would be part of a
governmental entity, most likely at a municipal,
perhaps state, level.
Q. When ASHRAE licenses its standards that are
on a CD to an individual for personal use, does that
license include the ability of the individual to make
and preserve altered versions of the standards; for
example, extracts for reference or terms juxtaposed
in a different way?
A. To the best of my knowledge, with our
current CD product, those standards are each
available on the CD.
And I should clarify. This -- we have one

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standards is in PDF form. So whatever the
functionality associated with a PDF is, that is what
you would find on the CD.
That sounded to me like a technological
restriction embedded in the CD, on what people could
do with the CD; is that correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What I meant to say was that
we don't alter the PDF functionality; we just
take the PDF that we finish our editorial
process with, create a PDF, and that file gets
moved over and manufactured as part of the CD.
So we just use that -- that file format as
being an easily transportable file that the user
can -- can use the way you normally would a PDF.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) So my question following
up on that is this: Is there anything in the license
grant that accompanies the CD when ASHRAE sells or
delivers the CD to a user that regulates the
different types of things that the user can do with
the CD with the -- with the documents on the CD?
For example, does, to ASHRAE's
understanding, the license prohibit a user from
making edits to the standard for one's own reference
and, therefore, changing the standard?

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CD that has our complete set of standards -1
Q. Okay.
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A. -- and on that one CD, each one of those
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individual C- -- standards is in PDF form.
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So whatever the functionality associated
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with PDF is, that is what you would find on the CD.
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Q. Does that mean that ASHRAE uses limitations 7
on the functionality of the CD as a way of limiting
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the license that is available for use of the CD?
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MR. BRIDGES: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: We want the CD and its
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content to be usable for the purchaser. We want 12
to make it a product that meets the users'
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demand.
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The restrictions that are there are meant
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to convey that this is for that user.
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Oh, you're not talking
17
about technical restrictions, then; you're talking
18
about license restrictions?
19
A. Well, I don't understand.
20
Q. I may have misunderstood your earlier
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question.
22
You said that on the one CD that has a
23
complete set of standards, each one of those
24
standards is -- each one of those individual
25

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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: There is nothing in the
license agreement that I can recall that would
prevent a user from doing that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is there anything in the
license agreement that authorizes a user to do that?
A. To the best of my recollection, the license
agreement would be silent on that issue.
Q. Is it ASHRAE's understanding that the scope
of permissions granted to the user in the license has
the same contours as the technological capability of
the PDF files in the CD -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- themselves?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: That would be my
understanding, the contours between the content
on the CD and PDF technology would be the same.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) This is another one of
these questions where I'm going back and tying it
more precisely to the list in the notice.
Has ASHRAE identified, apart from what
you've mentioned today, any harms, financially or
otherwise, to ASHRAE arising from any acts,
omissions, or operations of Public Resource?

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A. The -- the -- the concerns that -- that -that ASHRAE has is to be able to maintain control
over its -- its document for how it's -- it's used
and distributed in the market in accordance with
its -- with its terms.
Whether there's a specific harm that's been
seen from PR -- from the case at hand, I can't speak
to that. But in -- in principle, the -- the
organization sees harm if -- if it -- if -- if its
documents are not able to be maintained.
Q. And apart from that, has ASHRAE detected
any harms, financially or otherwise, to itself
arising from any acts, omissions, or operations of
Public Resource?
A. I -- I've got no evidence. I have not seen
cases of that.
Q. Again, this overlaps a little bit with some
earlier questions.
What -- what are all the factors that you
understand ASHRAE considered in deciding to provide
free viewing to ASHRAE's standards?
A. I was the one who actually launched that
effort, and it was -- so much of what we do is a
balance between trying to assist our members, trying
to help provide a better explanation of the

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How do ASHRAE's standards function as
working tools for persons who are part of the
engineering community?
A. ASHRAE's stan- -- they -- they provide a -well, many of the standards are method of test, so
they provide methods of testing equipment so that
equipment can be measured -- can be compared with
similar levels of performance.
Our -- some of the standards set
definitions of refrigerants and classify those
refrigerants in terms of their flammability, in terms
of their toxicity, different characteristics.
And then you have a third type of standard,
which is a design standard, which actually provides
guidance that says, "You shall have a -- your design
shall do this in these circumstances."
Q. And as you just mentioned, does that
guidance take the form of specific requirements that
are specified in the standard?
A. It says "shall."
Q. So that answer's yes?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any other factors involved in
the decision to provide free viewing of ASHRAE's
standards?

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technology, and allowing our -- our business model
to -- to -- to be supported. So it was a combination
of those things.
Number one was to -- in -- in theory, when
we first decided to move in that direction, it was so
that our members could see a document and be able to
determine if they wished to buy it or not. So they
had some familiarity that, yes, this is a document
that would be worthwhile for us to have, and then -then to be able to build into that that notion that
then it's going to lead to a sale.
And then there are -- our mission statement
means that we are to advance technology, so then the
third element would be to make it available to other
people who would have an interest in -- in looking at
the standard, but -- but would not be an engineer or
part of the engineering community, so wouldn't need
the technical depth of the -- the document as a
working tool.
So it's those three factors that went into
our decision to create the -- the free viewing,
which, again, I'm -- I can't recall the exact year,
but it's -- it's 15 years ago, maybe even a little
bit longer than that.
Q. How do the standards func- -- strike that.

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A. No. Those three factors were the -- that
was the -- the -- the thrust of our initiative.
Q. Are there any protocols or procedures at
ASHRAE governing the granting of licenses or
permission requests to anyone outside the
organization? And you can limit your answer to
standards.
A. Typically, the factors that would be
considered would be amount of content that's to be
used. Typically, we would want it to be less than
33 percent of a standard. That's not a hard and fast
rule, but that's a general guideline that my
assistant has.
We would look at what the use is. If it's
a classroom use, that's one thing; if it's posting it
on the Internet, that's another thing; if it's a
company brochure, that's another thing. So it's -it's -- it's how the distribution will be done and -and who is doing it, for example, a company, as
opposed to an educator.
Then there would also be the -- you know,
our expectation that the -- the -- the -- that there
be a citation so that the doc- -- the document is
sourced. And in that particular case, it would be
reprinted as it is unless it's specified that it

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is -- that there's commentary about it -- it -- it
being modified in some way.
Q. Do you know whether some jurisdictions
incorporate ASHRAE standards into their laws or
regulations by quoting the standards, literally, in
the laws and regulations?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I think there must be some
cases like that. Offhand, I can't recall any
specific instances. It seems logical that there
would be such a reference.
I'm not -- I don't get involved
specifically with code adoption. The request to
use our content would come to me; I just look at
it in terms of a -- a reprint request. It seems
that -- logical there would have been some cases
to that nature. I don't think it's an abundance
of such cases.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And then another way in
which standards get incorporated or adopted into law
or regulation is by reference; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Let me just stop for just a
second and point out that this witness is not
addressing incorporation or adoption.
MR. BRIDGES: I understand. This is

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publishes the altered version that suits it.
Are you aware of that type of scenario?
A. I am not. I'm not saying it may not
happen, but there's no -- I have no -- no knowledge
of that passing through -- through my office -- or I
have no knowledge of it happening at all.
Q. Does ASHRAE require any royalties from any
jurisdictions that adopt or incorporate ASHRAE's
standards into law or regulation?
A. By ref- -- by reference?
Q. Whether it's incorporation or adoption,
either explicitly or by reference.
A. From -- from my perspective, I would look
at reprint permission. I'm not aware of any
reprinting of our standards with modifications by
government officials, so there would be -- I'm not
aware of any royalties from that.
If a standard was adopted exactly as we
have published it and is distributed by that
governmental entity, that would be a reprint
permission and we would charge a royalty fee that
would be associated with that, because that would be
a distribution of our standard.
Q. So ASHRAE would charge the jurisdiction
that reprint fee?

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foundational to get to -MR. LEWIS: Sure, sure. I just wanted to
make sure you were aware of that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) So I'll repeat my last
question.
Another way in which standards get
incorporated or adopted into law or regulation is by
reference; correct?
A. My understanding is that happens.
Q. Do you know whether some jurisdictions,
when they adopt an ASHRAE standard into law or
regulation, adopt the standard with some
modifications that that jurisdiction itself wanted?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not know. I would -- I
receive reprint requests. If they modify a
standard, that probably would not -- that
process would not come to -- to my attention.
Q. Whose attention would that come to?
A. My guess is that's to our standards staff.
Q. And the reason I'm asking you these
questions is: Are you aware of any publications by
anyone other than ASHRAE of modified versions of
ASHRAE's standards? If, for example, a state adopts
your standards, but with changes, perhaps the state

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A. That -- that is correct.
Q. If a state adopted an ASHRAE standard
exactly into its law and then wished to make that
standard, now law, available for free and
unrestricted public access on the Web, would ASHRAE
charge that state a fee for posting the standard on
the Web?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: If that happened, that would
seem to fit our business model that we would -there would be a fee involved because our -because of our standard being copyrighted.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Are there -- strike that.
How would ASHRAE determine the appropriate
price for such an action by the state?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: When I charge royalty fees or
set royalty fees, I start with the price of the
standard.
I then take into account the distribution,
the number of copies that are expected to be
distributed, and I would take into account how
that might impact our sales.
Principally, though, I would look at the
number of copies distributed and the price.

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MR. BRIDGES: By the way, it's a little
2
unfair. I'm drinking coffee after coffee. If
3
you need a coffee or you need a break or if you
4
do, we can -- we can take breaks.
5
MR. LEWIS: How long have we been back on
6
the record?
7
VIDEOGRAPHER: An hour and three minutes.
8
MR. BRIDGES: Oh, maybe we should just take
9
a break then.
10
THE WITNESS: Sure.
11
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of Video 2.
12
We're going off the record at 2:46 p m.
13
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in
14
the proceedings.)
15
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of
16
Video 3. We are on the record at 3:07 p.m.
17
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I'm handing
18 you Exhibit 1079.
19
(Defendant's Exhibit 1079 was marked for
20
identification.)
21
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Can you please tell me
22 what it is?
23
A. This appears to be the terms of use for the
24 ASHRAE.org website.
25
Q. How did these terms of use differ, to your

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ASHRAE home page.
Secondly would be if they con- -- if they
just contact ASHRAE in -- in general.
Q. And if -- are there any other ways that
you're aware of?
A. No, just those two.
Q. If someone contacts ASHRAE in general, is
it my understanding, based on your testimony earlier,
that the person contacting ASHRAE is likely to be
directed to your assistant?
A. That is correct.
Q. And your assistant would typically act as
some kind of interface between ASHRAE and whoever's
seeking the permission?
A. That is correct.
Q. Who besides yourself would direct your
assistant in connection with the assistant's handling
the requests for permission?
A. I would be the only person who would be
giving her that direction.
Q. I also want to review systematically some
of the information that I've heard today about
sources other than ASHRAE for ASHRAE standards.
So to begin with, ASHRAE makes its
standards available through the Web to persons who

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knowledge, from the terms of use that apply, for
example, to CD products that ASHRAE delivers?
A. The intent of this was for access to the
website, so it was developed specifically for the
website, the other -- the terms of use for the CD for
that product.
Q. Is it your understanding that Exhibit 1079
applies to persons who use the free viewing facility
of the ASHRAE website?
A. I'm not sure of that. This appears to deal
with the website and its content, so if the free
viewing is part of that, then my assumption is that
would apply.
Q. Do these terms in Exhibit 1079 apply
equally to ASHRAE members and to non-members?
A. I'm not aware of any separate agreement
for -- for members.
Q. So to the best of your information, it
would apply to both members and non-members?
A. I would think that's correct.
Q. You've touched on this a little bit, but
what are the different ways persons can approach
ASHRAE in order to gain permission to use information
from an ASHRAE standard?
A. One, it is from a permissions link on the

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want to view or acquire the standards through the Web
interface, whether by using the free viewing facility
or by ordering a PDF or ordering a CD; is that
correct?
A. That is correct, or a book.
Q. If somebody wants networked access to
ASHRAE's standards, that person normally goes through
a reseller; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you identified several resellers
earlier today; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Are there any other significant resellers
apart from the four you mentioned who resell ASHRAE's
standards?
A. I don't -- significant sellers, the only
other ones that come to mind, SAI Global -- I don't
believe I referenced them, and Barber Index would
be -- would be -- I think that may be six then.
Those are the principal resellers.
Q. And then apart from them, there may be book
retailers?
A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
MR. LEWIS: You have to -THE WITNESS: Yes.

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What other major sources
of AST- -- sorry, of ASHRAE standards other than
ASHRAE have I missed?
A. When you say "sources," sources that make
our documents available in the marketplace?
Q. Right, right. What I would consider to be
a source to which a member of the public would go in
order to obtain ASHRAE standards.
A. I know we have publications in Amazon, for
example. I don't know if -- offhand, I can't recall
if among the titles they offer are standards, but I
would think it's likely that they would be.
Q. Any others that we haven't reviewed?
A. There's an assortment of small book
redistributors, Engineer's Bookstore over at Georgia
Tech, for example, Barnes & Noble, which does college
bookstores. They may maintain inventory of ASHRAE
standards for resale.
Q. Do college students get a discount on the
price of AS- -- of ASHRAE standards?
A. We have a student member price that is
available to student members of ASHRAE.
Q. And do members have to purchase standards
through ASHRAE's website in order to take advantage
of member discount?

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include in the package that's purchased documents
from ASHRAE, as well as other organizations.
Q. Okay. So that might be a -- would that be
for on-line access?
A. My understanding is that, yes, that would
be for on-line access.
Q. So that would be a form of multi-title
on-line access where the different titles might come
from different organizations?
A. That is correct.
Q. Does ASHRAE authorize anyone to disseminate
to the public any ASHRAE standards together with
someone else's annotations or commentary?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not recall any such
license.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) If someone wishes to
publish a book advising the public how to make the
most effective use of ASHRAE standards, does ASHRAE
take the position that the author or publisher of
such a book would need a grant of permission or a
license from ASHRAE?
A. ASHRAE's position would be if there's
content from the standard that is used as it's
expressed in the ASHRAE standard, then permission

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A. Yes, yes, through the website or by calling
our customer service department.
Q. And did you say earlier that ASHRAE
authorizes some entities to include ASHRAE standards
in some other publications that include a broad
collection of standards?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I may have misheard you
or misunderstood. I thought I heard something to
that effect.
A. I don't believe I said that.
Q. So if -- if -- so any authorized
distribution of ASHRAE standards would be only
individually or grouped with other ASHRAE standards
or other ASHRAE publications; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: We have resellers who will
sell ASHRAE standards with other collections.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Would that be bundling
separate products together the way Amazon might
suggest, that if you like book A you might want book
B and it tries to sell you both?
A. I am not sure how they may package
standards. I was referring to electronic access that
would be available from resellers where they would

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would be required.
Q. Does ASHRAE know whether, apart from the
defendant in this -- this case, there is any other
source apart from ASHRAE's website for free viewing
of ASHRAE's standards?
A. There have been occasions where posting of
ASHRAE standards have been brought to our attention.
Q. Were these postings without ASHRAE -without ASHRAE's permission?
A. That's the first thing we do, is check and
see if there is an authorization that's been granted.
And as part of that process, then we would ask if the
person posting has authorization.
Q. Does ASHRAE regularly demand that persons
making those postings stop the postings?
A. Yes, that is a process that we follow.
Typically, what we see most often are file-sharing
sites.
Q. Does ASHRAE have any information suggesting
that the presence of its standards on file-sharing
sites has caused it to lose money?
A. All we have are complaints from somebody
who perhaps has bought a standard and says, "Now I
see this is available here, what gives."
Q. Has ASHRAE succeeded in eliminating the

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unauthorized postings of its standards apart from the
posting by defendant in this case?
A. We typically have success removing postings
as they come up, but it's a continuing problem.
Q. Does ASHRAE have any information suggesting
that Public Resource has posted ASHRAE standards or
any standards to the Internet for purposes other than
a public benefit?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of the
motivations.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Apart from the formal
committee process leading to standards development,
are you aware of any of the plaintiffs providing a
public facility for the posting of discussions or
comments by the public about the standards of the
plaintiffs?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of any
other organizations -Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What about -A. -- what they do.
Q. -- ASHRAE? How does that apply to ASHRAE?
A. Could you ask the ques- -- question again,
please?

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qualify to register to make comments on that
ExCHANGE?
A. My -MR. LEWIS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: My recollection is that you
provide your name, e-mail address, and verify
you're over a certain age to allow you to post.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And does one have to
agree to terms of service?
A. I imagine there -- there is a -- yes, there
is a terms of service that you would agree to.
Q. Does ASHRAE make public its standards for
free viewing through a facility other than the free
viewing facility we've discussed when standards are
under consideration for incorporation by a
government?
A. I am not aware of that.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1080 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I hand you
Exhibit 1080. This is an exchange of e-mails between
you and someone who's contacted ASHRAE regarding
extracting some information for another code and
guideline; is that correct?
A. This appears to be a request for use of

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Q. Sure.
Apart from the formal committee process
that's part of standards development, are you aware
of ASHRAE's providing a public facility for the
posting of discussions or comments about ASHRAE's
standards?
MR. LEWIS: I'll just insert an objection
here that this is outside the scope of the
topics for this witness.
MR. BRIDGES: We can debate it, but you're
not instructing him anyway, so...
THE WITNESS: There's interpretations of
standards that are -- that are -- that are made.
I'm not aware of a place on our website where we
allow posting of comments about any of -- about
our standards or other publications.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Does ASHRAE maintain any
public forum where the interested public can make
comments and where commenters can, for example,
respond to each other?
MR. LEWIS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: The -- ASHRAE offers a
platform called ASHRAExCHANGE at which if you
register, you may post comments.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What must one do to

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content for 90.1.
Q. And I'm not trying to force you into a -any unfair characteriz- -- characterization, so feel
free to push back.
Is this within a typical range of the types
of communications that ASHRAE receives for
permissions?
A. It's not unique. I'm not sure it could be
characterized as being typical, but it's certainly a
type of request that we receive.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1081 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Can you please identify
Exhibit 1081?
A. Okay. This is a multiuser license for use
of 90.1, 2007.
Q. Help me understand one thing.
This is a license for use of a PDF file by
multiple persons; is that correct?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. What I don't understand is it says the
purchase of the PDF file is not included in the
license fee.
Do you see that in the first full paragraph
in the body of it?

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A. (Witness nodded head affirmatively.)
Q. So this means that -- is this correct that
this means that somebody has to pay this license fee
and then separately has to purchase a PDF file?
A. That is correct.
Q. This license fee, this agreement, cost
$1,000; correct?
A. As I -- as I see stated here, yes.
Q. How much more does somebody have to pay to
purchase the PDF file?
A. This would have been a -- somewhere
between -- well, what's the date of this? 2009.
My assumption is that there's previous
reference to these being ASHRAE members, so most
likely they paid a fee of something about $99, which
would have been the member price.
Q. And it goes on to say, "Networking of
updated standards would require a new licensing
agreement. This standard is on continuous
maintenance."
What does that last sentence mean?
A. Continuous maintenance is the process that
ASHRAE followed so that every three years there's a
revision of that standard released.
Q. Now, in the sentence before that, I think

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A. Year designation.
Q. Year designation.
And that would -- a new year designation
means that, within the meaning of this document, it's
an updated standard?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. What do the addenda typically
include?
A. Typically, an addenda -- or I guess I
should -- a singular addendum would be a section of
the standard that has been revised, so the committee
has agreed to revise this section of the standard.
That then becomes an addendum.
Q. Do the addenda contain corrections to
errors that may have appeared in a published version
of a standard in the nature of an errata?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I -- I believe the errata is
a sep- -- that's a separate issue. The addenda
would be a change to the standard.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Okay. Thank you.
Would the errata be furnished -- would the
errata to a particular version be included within the
license for that version?
A. Yes, and that was our attempt to say that,

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which I also earlier read, it said, "Networking of
updated standards would require a new licensing
agreement."
Then it goes on to say, "This standard is
on 'continuous maintenance'" and then it says, "Any
approved addenda posted on the ASHRAE website may
also be included with the document on the network at
no additional fee."
So there's a license to a standard, but it
doesn't cover updated standards; correct?
A. It does not include revisions -- different
versions of that standard. This license is for 90.1
2007.
Q. But it looks to me as though it does -that the license does extend to any approved addenda
posted on the ASHRAE website.
A. That is correct, because those addenda are
freely available as individual units.
Q. Okay. So there's a -- there's a standard
and then the standard may have some addenda over
time; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. But then after a certain point in time, the
standard is updated and that becomes a new version of
the standard, typically given a new date?

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"Here is you -- you have access -- just as anyone has
access to the addenda, you do, as well."
Q. So this says that the license does not
expire, correct, in the second sentence of the first
full paragraph?
A. Second sentence. I see the sen- -- that's
correct, it does say that.
Q. So help me understand this.
This is ASHRAE Standard 90.1 2007?
A. Yes.
Q. So this means that the holder of this
license can have multiple -- it can have multiple
user access to 90.1 2007, to the addenda to 90.1
2007, not explicitly, but presumably also to any
errata that pertain to 90.1 2007; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that this license would enable somebody
to have access to that version of that standard
indefinitely?
A. That is correct.
Q. Even after a new revision has come out?
A. That is correct.
Q. How many addenda does ASHRAE typically
publish for any standard during a -- one revision
cycle?

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A. I do not know and -- and I think it would
2 vary quite a bit, depending upon the standard.
3
Q. How many errata does ASHRAE publish for any
4 standard during one revision cycle?
5
A. I do not know.
6
Q. Do you know the range?
7
A. I do not.
8
Q. Do you know the type of errors that are
9 included among the errata?
10
MR. LEWIS: I'm going to insert my
11
objection again about being outside the scope
12
and topics, but...
13
MR. BRIDGES: It's generally within -- I
14
mean, he's basically in charge of publication.
15
The errata is part of the publication process.
16
That's why I'm asking him. I'm not asking you
17
to agree with me; I'm just trying to explain.
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MR. LEWIS: I understand.
19
THE WITNESS: The -- the errata are posted
20
on the ASHRAE website in the standards section
21
of the website, which is different from -- from
22
the section of the website where we sell the
23
standard.
24
So they're published in that -- they're
25
posted on the website and I'm not engaged in

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A. This is for packaging 90.1 with the IECC,
which is published by the International Code Council.
Q. And this is an agreement between ASHRAE and
the International Code Council; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Do you know by what method ICC reproduced
ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 2007 in its publication?
A. I know they did a book.
Q. Do you know how the book was typeset, for
example?
A. I -- what we did was provide them with a
PDF from which they -- they manufactured the book.
Q. Do you know whether they simply reproduced
the PDF?
A. My assumption is they -- they -- my
understanding and assumption is that they reproduced
the PDF as we provided it to them, and I think it may
even say in here that they're required to do so.
Q. I didn't see that. What I saw was
paragraphs 4 and 5.
A. It's certainly my understanding that the
document was reprinted as ASHRAE distributes it.
I -- which, I believe, is covered in Section 4.
Q. I guess in Section 4(a), I -- I'm not sure
what I -- what the phrase "in other formats" means.

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that process.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Who -- who is engaged in
that process?
A. That's our standards staff that does that.
Q. Do you -- do you know -- sorry.
Do you have any knowledge of the types of
corrections that the errata include?
A. I -- I really do not. I've -- I've not
looked at them.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1082 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I think I gave you two
copies.
A. I have two, yes.
Q. Please give one to your counsel.
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Actually, I'm going to
start doing that on a regular basis -A. Okay. I'll be prepared.
Q. -- since you're closer to him. So it
wasn't my mistake after all, it was just a brilliant
plan.
Do you recognize Exhibit 1082?
A. I do.
Q. What is it?

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A. I'm not sure exactly what that means
either.
Q. In paragraph -- or in Section 5, paragraph
(b), what did ASHRAE mean by "stringent quality
control procedures"?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. That was in
Section 5(b)?
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) 5(b), I'm sorry, on
page 3 of 6.
A. My reading this agreement would mean that
it was -- that the document was up to -- is
comparable to the standards by which our products are
distributed to the public, made available for sale.
Q. Are you familiar with the term "double
keying"?
A. Yes.
Q. To what does that term apply?
A. I -- my understanding of double keying
would mean there would be a document that would be
keyboarded twice to ensure accuracy to the
document -- of what's been typed in.
Q. Do you have a view as to whether that is a
standard for entry of text into a -- into a
publication in the publishing industry?

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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I've not come across that
being done for many, many years, because now so
much of the reproduction is PDF.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What about fresh entry of
text? Are you familiar with double keying as a
standard in the industry for fresh entry of text?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that now as
a standard.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Were you aware of it as a
standard at any time in the past?
MR. LEWIS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm aware of it being done.
I'm not aware that it was a standard.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Whom were you aware of
doing it?
A. In the mid-1970s, we did a directory and
there was a firm that we used in Pennsylvania for
this directory. So it was very straightforward
keying, and they employed double -- double keying.
Q. Do you recall ever asking a vendor to
provide triple keying of fresh text entry?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I am not.

1
case, if ASHRAE is ever aware of any error in
2
the defendant's posting, please do let us know
3
immediately.
4
You can reserve whatever rights you want to
5
it, but we think it would be better for us to
6
know sooner, rather than later, not as a matter
7
of discovery, but as a matter of public
8
interest.
9
I raise that because this has come up in a
10
different context with others where it appears
11
that they are collecting instances of errors,
12
but not telling Public Resource.
13
MR. FEE: I'd like to note for the record
14
that we object to that and move to strike it.
15
This is Kevin Fee on behalf of ASTM.
16
MR. REHN: NFPA will join that.
17
MR. BRIDGES: Well, for the record, I made
18
the same offer to both -- and request to both
19
NFPA and ASTM.
20
(Defendant's Exhibit 1084 was marked for
21
identification.)
22
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I don't
23 believe I see -- you are copied on this document.
24
Do you recognize this document?
25
A. I don't recall it, but I see that I'm --

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(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1083 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've handed
you Exhibit 1083. Could you please identify it?
A. This is an e-mail exchange between myself
and Jeff Littleton.
Q. Who is Mr. Littleton?
A. He is our executive vice president and
person to whom I report.
Q. Does this e-mail exchange pertain to the
agreement we've just discussed as Exhibit 1082?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. By the way, have you -- strike that.
Has ASHRAE studied the reproductions of
ASHRAE's standards on the defendant's website?
A. I have not.
Q. Do you know whether anyone at ASHRAE has?
A. I am unaware.
Q. Do you know whether ASHRAE is aware of any
errors in the standards -- in the ASHRAE standards
posted by defendant?
A. I am not aware of any errors.
MR. BRIDGES: I would just like to say
for -- for the record, regardless of what
positions the parties take as they combat this

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I'm copied on this exchange and was involved in it.
Q. And this is an exchange of e-mails in part
to you, but between someone named Mike Moore at
Newport Ventures, Inc. and ASHRAE regarding a request
for permission to reprint ASHRAE 90.1; is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Who is Julie Harr?
A. Julie Harr is my assistant.
Q. And she's the one we discussed earlier as
having responsibility for acting as a point person or
interface with ASHRAE with respect to requests for
permission; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1085 was marked for
identification.)
MR. LEWIS: Thank you, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, this is
a -- at the top, an e-mail from Steve Ferguson to you
regarding a request to reprint tables from ASHRAE
90.1 2010 and one or more codes in Minnesota; is that
correct?
A. That's what this pertains to, yes.
Q. Do you recall the outcome of this request?
A. I do not recall.

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Q. Based on the information in this e-mail,
would you have an expectation as to what the likely
outcome of this request was?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: We try to work with -- this
is from the Minnesota -- State of Minnesota
Energy Mechanical Codes. We like to cooperate
with them.
It looks like there's a couple of tables.
My guess is we would probably grant that
permission.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1086 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've handed
you Exhibit 1086.
Is this an e-mail from you, with other
e-mails earlier in the thread, to your assistant
regarding permission ASHRAE granted in response to a
request from Minnesota?
A. I'm sorry. What's -Q. I'm sorry. Is this an e-mail from you -A. Oh.
Q. -- with other e-mails earlier in the thread
to your assistant regarding permission ASHRAE granted
in response to a request from Minnesota?

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Was the import of this
that Minnesota was adopting these two other codes and
not ASHRAE codes, but wanted certain sections from an
ASHRAE code to graft into those Minnesota codes?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: My concern here was the use
of -- the request to use content from Standard
90.1. So I focused my attention on -- on that
use.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) But the permission you
granted was to use material from 90.1 in a state code
that was incorporating provisions from other codes
through other sources; correct?
A. I think our intent was to allow reprinting
of the sections that were specified in the message.
Q. Well, the context was that that reprinting
would be in a state code that also incorporated
material from two other codes from another source;
correct?
A. That's -- that -- as I read it here, that's
what that seems to say.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1087 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, this is an
e-mail that you received from your colleague,

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A. Yes, this appears to be the same thread.
Q. The beginning of the thread on the second
page of the exhibit says, "The State of Minnesota
intends to adopt the 2012 International Mechanical
Code and the 2012 International Energy Conservation
Code by reference with amendments."
You see that?
A. Was that the previous document?
Q. No. That's on page 2 of -- of
Exhibit 1086.
A. Page 2. Yes, I see that.
Q. Are the International Mechanical Code and
International Energy Conservation Code both ASHRAE
codes?
A. No, they are not.
Q. Is either of them?
A. No, neither of them is an ASHRAE document.
Q. So he was just giving that to you by -for -- for informational purposes or what? Do you -did you have an understanding as to what the
relevance of that was?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm -- I -- I think he's -- I
think it's just providing additional
information.

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Michshell Phillips, regarding a request for a copy of
a standard -A. Yes.
Q. -- from -- and -- sorry, it's from someone
in Israel; is that right?
A. Israeli standards organization, I believe.
Q. Who is Michshell Phillips?
A. She is an editorial coordinator in our -in our special publications group.
Q. It appears that -- in this e-mail that
ASHRAE generated an invoice for one-time license fees
for the use of ASHRAE Standard 62.1 and Standard 90.1
to be included in Israeli standards; correct?
A. That is what this indicates, yes.
Q. How much would -- would -- strike that.
Would ASHRAE consider that revenue to be
royalty revenue or sale of publication revenue or
something else?
A. We would account for that as a royalty.
Q. Do you know how much ASHRAE earns in
royalties in a particular year paid to it by other
entities that are responsible for developing
standards or codes?
A. So the question is to restrict it to
entities that are going to use content from us in a

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code -Q. Right -A. -- not just -Q. -- but in a code, I -- I mean in a -- not
in a legal code, but in a -- in some other standard
or code produced by some other standards organization
or standards authority.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: On an average basis, my guess
would be $10,000.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Per year?
A. Per year, yeah.
Q. Does ASHRAE pay other standards
organizations for the privilege of using material
from their codes or standards in ASHRAE's codes or
standards?
A. To my knowledge, we do not.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1088 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, what is
Exhibit 1088?
A. A multiuser license for 90.1 2010 and 189.1
2009.
Q. So this is a -- sort of a bundled license
for two different standards?

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Doesn't a license give rights to use the
content?
A. It -- it may be a bad choice of words in
this case.
Q. Okay. What -- what do you think this
means?
A. That ASHRAE retains ownership over the
content. That's how I would read that.
Q. By the way, I see references to IP and SI
versions from time to time.
Does "IP" stand for inches and pounds and
"SI" for system international?
A. Correct.
Q. And a more ordinary word for "SI" would be
metric?
A. A more ordinary word, but perhaps not as
precise.
Q. Thank you.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1089 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've handed
you Exhibit 1089. It is an exchange of
correspondence between ASHRAE and someone in Slovenia
regarding Standard 90.1 2013; is that correct?
A. That is correct.

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A. It looks -- it appears to be that way, yep.
Q. In the first sentence in the main part of
the text, in the smaller print, it says, "In
purchasing a Multiple User License from ASHRAE for a
Standard, the purchaser recognizes that the title,
ownership rights and intellectual property rights in
the data shall remain in ASHRAE and/or its supplier."
Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. For what ASHRAE standards do title
ownership rights and intellectual property rights in
the data remain with a supplier of ASHRAE, as opposed
to ASHRAE itself?
A. I can't answer that -- answer that.
That -- that may be referring to a distribution
process that's applied.
Q. Well, then that would normally be ASHRAE
and/or its distributor, I would assume.
A. I -- I would think so. Offhand, I can't -I -- I -- I'm not aware of -- of content being
provided by a supplier, if the content's an ASHRAE
standard.
Q. Farther along in the second line, after
"and/or its supplier," it says "This license gives no
rights to content."

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Q. Do you understand that this refers to a
Slovenian translation?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you have an understanding as to who was
going to conduct the translation or prepare the
translation?
A. My understanding was that it would be
prepared by the Slovenian Society of Mechanical
Engineers, was their name.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1090 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've handed
you Exhibit 1090.
Could you identify it, please?
A. This is a license and distribution
agreement with -- between ASHRAE and ICC.
Q. Is this for a -- is this an update of a
previous agreement?
A. It -- it -- it is. This is the replacement
for an earlier agreement we had for an earlier
version of -- of our standard and their code.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1091 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is Exhibit 1091 e-mail
correspondence between yourself and Mark Johnson of

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the International Code Council regarding the document
you just identified as Exhibit 1090?
A. Yes.
Q. And a draft of 1090 is an attachment to
this e-mail in 1091; correct?
A. Correct.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1092 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Please identify
Exhibit 1092.
A. This is an e-mail exchange between myself
and Jodi Scott in our office.
Q. The e-mail identifies Jodi Scott as
communications manager; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What does that role entail?
A. She was the -- our public relations and she
would monitor Internet postings related to ASHRAE.
Q. You said to her -- strike that.
The underlying e-mail is from you to your
assistant, Julie Harr; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that e-mail says, "If you ever receive
a copyright infringement notice/message involving

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various trade publications.
Q. Did you become aware of it from other
persons in the industry through conversations or
e-mail messages?
A. Not from -- from e-mail messages, I don't
believe. There were discussions that -- that I heard
about free access to documents on the Internet.
Q. What -- what discussions do you recall?
A. If I would go to conferences at which
publishing matters were discussed, whether it be
academic journals, books, standards.
Q. Who -- who would speak at those conferences
about these issues?
A. There would be -- typically, they would be
peer-to-peer groups that would -- so people in my
roles who would -- who would discuss perhaps people
from commercial publishers.
Q. To your knowledge, did ASHRAE ever
communicate to Mr. Malamud before this lawsuit that
it wanted Mr. Malamud to remove ASHRAE standards from
his website?
A. I have no knowledge of that.
Q. Do you know who would?
A. I -- I don't know.
Q. Did you ever become aware of Underwriters

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Karl Malamud (sp?) bring to my attention."
What type of copyright infringement notice
or message were you anticipating in that statement?
A. That someone would bring to our attention
that there was a -- a violation of our copyright.
Q. Would that be something along the lines of
the communication from Dave Hollman of Carrier that
we reviewed earlier today?
A. Something along those lines, that's
correct.
Q. Do you recall receiving any other written
communications or notices of a similar sort that fall
within the description of what you are looking out
for in Exhibit 1092?
A. Yeah, I do not recall that.
Q. Did you read the article that Jodi Scott
brought to your attention?
A. I -- I believe I did.
Q. Did you have a -- an impression about
Mr. Malamud before you ran that article?
A. I was aware that -- that he held a position
where copyrighted documents could be -- be made
available on the Internet.
Q. How did you become aware of that?
A. I think from articles such as this one from

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Laboratories having discussions with anyone at ASHRAE
about Mr. Malamud?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever become aware of anyone at ASME
having discussions with anyone at ASHRAE regarding
Mr. Malamud?
A. No, I have no knowledge of such
discussions.
Q. Were you -- sorry.
Was ASHRAE aware of a lawsuit that Public
Resource brought against SMACNA, or the Sheet Metal
and Air Conditioning Contractors' National
Association?
A. Yes, I was aware of that.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1093 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Can you please identify
Exhibit 1093?
A. This is an e-mail exchange that involves
Claire Ramspeck and me.
Q. Claire Ramspeck is director of technology
at ASHRAE, or at least was at the time of this
e-mail; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What were her functions as director of

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technology?
A. She's administrator of our standards
activity, or they fall within her area.
Q. Please turn to the earliest e-mail in the
thread on the reverse side of the page.
Are you familiar with something called the
IPRPC?
A. I am not.
Q. At the bottom of the front page of
Exhibit 1093, Ms. Ramspeck -- that's a -- that's an
e-mail from Ms. Ramspeck to you; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And she said, "I thought you'd want to know
about the latest development in the Carl
Malamud/Incorporation by Reference issue."
Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What earlier developments was ASHRAE aware
of with respect to the Carl Malamud incorporation by
reference issue?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: What I'm aware of is the -is the position of Mr. Malamud that -- that
documents -- that copyrighted documents could be
made freely available, from articles such as had

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standards and other information.
Q. That's a business name?
A. That's correct.
Q. That's not an industry category?
A. No. That's a company name.
Q. When you said "he," referring to Tom
Soles -- strike that.
In the second sentence of that paragraph,
the "he" at the beginning of the sentence refers to
Tom Soles of SMACNA; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) You said, "He had his
hand slapped by Tom Pace (ASTM), ANSI and had a call
from NFPA when I was actually with him."
Do you see that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What did you mean by the phrase, "He had
his hand slapped by Tom Pace (ASTM)..."?
A. That's what Tom Soles told me.
Q. What -- what details did he furnish to you?
A. Just that there was a lot of concern
from -- among the -- the -- the standards developers
about the -- the violation of the copyright postings
on the Internet.

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been sent to me from -- from Jodi. So I was
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aware of this being an issue.
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'm trying to focus on
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her choice of the words "the latest development," and 4
I was wondering what earlier developments either you 5
or ASHRAE was aware of that made this the latest
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development.
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A. I'm not aware of earlier developments
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except that the -- the position of -- about posting
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copyrighted documents is one that all publishers
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follow -- were following that issue.
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Q. Following Ms. Ramspeck's e-mail to you, you 12
sent an e-mail back to her on February 26, 2013;
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correct?
14
A. That's correct.
15
Q. You're referring in that e-mail to the IHS
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meeting.
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What was that?
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A. I was at a conference of Information
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Handling Services.
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Q. Information Handling?
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A. Yes, uh-huh (affirmative).
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Q. What does Information Handling Services
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mean?
24
A. They're -- they're a distributor of -- of
25

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Q. Does that explain why Mr. Soles would say
he had his hand slapped by Tom Pace, ASTM, and ANSI?
A. I wasn't involved in -- in their
discussions. That's just what Tom -- what Tom Soles
relayed to me.
Q. So I'm trying to understand the context of
his explaining that.
It -- it suggests that he was reprimanded
by ASTM and ANSI.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Was that your
understanding of it?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Those were the words he used
with me.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Was it your understanding
when he used those words that it was some kind of a
reprimand that he was referring to?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I can't say. That was -that -- those were the words he -- he relayed to
me.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And then you relayed to
Ms. Ramspeck that Mr. Soles had a call from NFPA when
you were with him; correct?

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A. That's correct.
Q. What did you observe with respect to him
during that call that came in from NFPA?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm -- that's what Tom Soles
told me, that he had a phone call.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Well, I thought you were
telling Ms. Ramspeck that Tom Soles had a phone call
from NFPA when you were with Tom Soles.
A. Well, I -- I wasn't part of that
conversation.
Q. But were you -A. I -Q. Were you with him as he engaged in that
conversation on the telephone?
A. Not -- not that I recall.
Q. By the way, the reference to Tom Pace,
could that have been John Pace, the director of
publications at ASTM?
A. Yeah, that's John Pace.
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
COURT REPORTER: Who was that, please?
MR. FEE: That was Kevin Fee from ASTM.
COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

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A. Well, that he'd be at the center of that.
Q. Why would it be unfortunate that he would
be at the center of that?
A. Because it would be a -- it would be a -- a
significant effort to try to resolve the copyright
issue.
Q. Was there -- was there concern that it was
unfortunate because he was the -- was not -- or
because SMACNA was not the most strategically
advantageous party to litigate the issue?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
MR. FEE: Objection. Calls for
speculation. Vague. Calls for legal
conclusion. Kevin Fee again.
THE WITNESS: I -- I can't speak to what -what the motivations were.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'm not asking for
speculation about motivations; I'm trying to explore
why the fact that SMACNA would have a high-profile
case as to which there would be a great deal of
awareness would be unfortunate.
MR. FEE: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I just think anyone who was
gonna be involved in this would really need to
be aware of what all the issues were.

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) As you sit here, you say
you -- you now know that that was John Pace?
A. My recollection.
MR. FEE: Same objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Then you said to
Ms. Ramspeck, "Not a good excuse but he had no idea
of what he was getting into."
Could you please explain the -- your
statement that he had no idea of what he was getting
into?
A. That was from articles such as the -- the
previous one, where we saw where this -- where there
was a lot of concern about the high-profile nature
of -- of the -- of the postings.
Q. What was it that he was getting into?
A. A case of high visibility.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, not that I'm aware of.
Q. And Ms. Ramspeck responded to you by
saying, "It is unfortunate."
What did you understand from that to have
been unfortunate?
A. That there would be a lot of -- a lot of -be a high-profile case, high-profile awareness.
Q. And what -- what makes that unfortunate?

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What are all the issues
that one needs to be aware of?
A. I would say that would -MR. FEE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: The -- the high-profile
nature of the -- of -- of the case.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What else?
A. I'm not aware of any- -- anything else.
Q. Ms. Ramspeck went on to say, "SMACNA should
have been more plugged in on this issue...."
What did you understand that to mean?
A. From the high-profile nature of the -of -- of -- of the -- the -- the postings, that this
was meant to be a real test case of copyright on the
Internet.
Q. But what did "more plugged in" mean? Did
that mean in greater conversation with others?
A. I can't speak -MR. FEE: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know which -I -- I would interpret that as being awareness,
but I can't speak to anything more than that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Why is it unfortunate for
SMACNA to have had litigation with Public Resource,
as opposed to ASHRAE, ASTM, and NFPA to be in

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litigation with Public Resource?
MR. FEE: Objection to form.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
MR. FEE: Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of what those
issues might be.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1094 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock,
Exhibit 1094 is an e-mail from you to your assistant,
Julie Harr; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you understand -- strike that.
What did you mean when you wrote to Julie
Harr, "Be glad not me and you"?
A. I believe this would be a high-profile case
that would take a considerable amount of time to
resolve.
Q. But ASH- -- ASHRAE brought a lawsuit
against Public Resource; correct?
A. That -- I'm not sure when that -- when that
action initiated, but that was not something I was -that I was involved in.
Q. Bringing the lawsuit was not something you
were involved in?

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support that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know who at ASHRAE
decided that ASHRAE would be one of the plaintiffs in
this lawsuit?
MR. LEWIS: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not know.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) In your response to
Ms. Harr at the top of the page on Exhibit 1094, you
mentioned you "...played golf with the SMACNA guy who
did this back in February when he told me I said
watch out."
So -- so what was the name of the SMACNA
guy you were referring to there?
A. Tom Soles.
Q. Tom Soles.
The same one you saw at the ISH meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. What caused you to tell him, "Watch out"?
A. Because from all I had read in the trade
press and so on, it was going to be a high-profile
case.
Q. Did you tell him to watch out because it
would be a risky case to SMACNA?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I told him it was going to --

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A. That's correct.
Q. Were you aware of ASHRAE's plans to file
this lawsuit before ASHRAE filed it?
MR. LEWIS: I'll insert my objection that
this is outside the scope of this witness'
topics.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) You may answer.
A. I -- I remember -- there were discussions
that were -- that were held that I was aware of, but
I was not privy to those.
Q. Did you offer any opinion internally at
ASHRAE about the wisdom or propriety of ASHRAE
bringing a lawsuit against Public Resource?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I did think it was important
for ASHRAE to protect its copyright.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Did you offer an opinion
internally at ASHRAE about the wisdom or propriety -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- of -- of ASHRAE
bringing a lawsuit against Public Resource?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I thought it was prudent for
ASHRAE to -- to protect its copyright, and if
that meant engaging in a lawsuit, then I would

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it -- my intention was that it was going to be a
high-profile case, it was going to require much,
much detail and attention.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Did you tell him that the
case might have bad consequences for the standards
development industry?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you have any other explanation to him
of why he should watch out?
A. No.
Q. Did Jeff Littleton decide to bring the case
on behalf of ASHRAE?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I do not know if -- I do not
know if it was Jeff. Such decision -- decisions
are usually made by our executive committee.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Who chairs the executive
committee?
A. The president of the association.
Q. The president of the executive -- sorry.
The president of the association is a
volunteer; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Who's the senior-most employee of the
association?

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A. Jeff Littleton.
MR. LEWIS: We've been going for about an
hour and a half now, but I didn't want to stop
you if you guys were getting close to -MR. BRIDGES: Let me just do one or two
more. It's not some great crescendo or
anything. I'm just -- let me get through one or
two.
I'll stop in an instant if you need to stop
right now.
THE WITNESS: I'm okay.
MR. BRIDGES: We'll go a couple of minutes.
All that coffee's finally having its effect on
me.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1095 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, do you
recognize Exhibit 1095 as an ASHMAE -- as an e-mail
that you received from Jodi Scott, ASHRAE's
communications manager?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. This appears to forward a Google News Alert
on Carl Malamud.
Do you see that down below?
A. Yes, I do.

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A. Yes, it is.
Q. -- and it's in response to a request from
someone in Vermont for use of material from an ASHRAE
standard; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1097 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Please identify
Exhibit 1097.
A. This is a copyright permission request.
This looks like a -- a blank form, a model.
Q. Is this a model that ASHRAE furnished to
persons seeking permission to reprint material from
ASHRAE standards?
A. This was not specific to standards; this
would have been used for general publications
content.
Q. That would include standards, as well?
A. That's -- that is correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1098 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock,
Exhibit 1098 is an e-mail exchange between you and an
employee of the City of Houston regarding Houston's
adoption of an ASHRAE standard, at least portions of

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Q. Were you aware of ASHRAE having a Google 1
News Alert subscription for -- for references to Carl
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Malamud?
3
A. I would get items from Jodi Scott from
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Google Alerts.
5
Q. Do you know how many Google Alerts
6
regarding Carl Malamud you saw?
7
A. I do not recall. I don't -- just a couple,
8
I think, but I'm not aware of anything more.
9
Q. Do you know when ASHRAE first started a 10
Google News Alert on Carl Malamud?
11
A. I do not know.
12
MR. BRIDGES: This is a good time to break. 13
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of Video 3 14
We're going off the record at 4:45 p m.
15
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in
16
the proceedings.)
17
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of 18
Video 4. We're on the record at 4:58 p.m.
19
(Defendant's Exhibit 1096 was marked for
20
identification.)
21
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've just
22
handed you Exhibit 1096.
23
Can you confirm for me, please, that this
24
is an e-mail from your assistant, Julie Harr -25

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an ASHRAE standard; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1099 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, can you
please identify Exhibit 1099?
A. This pertains to an article that was -- was
published with ASHRAE -- I assume with ASHRAE content
from 90.1.
MR. BRIDGES: With counsel's permission, I
would like to add the following as a second part
to this exhibit. They're sequential Bates
numbers and I believe that this is probably
identified as an attachment in the e-mail cover
page of 1099.
MR. LEWIS: I'm happy for you to ask the
witness if that's his recollection.
MR. BRIDGES: Sure. Just for the
formality, I'd like to go ahead and say that the
exhibit now constitutes Bates Nos. ASHRAE0027658
through -665.
MR. LEWIS: That's fine. I do want the
record to reflect that -MR. BRIDGES: I'll ask him.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, do you

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recognize the second portion of Exhibit 1099 as the
article to which the e-mail refers as the first part
of Exhibit 1099?
And I draw your attention, as well, not
only to the Bates numbers as given them by ASHRAE in
producing documents, but also to the attachment file
name as shown on the front page of the exhibit.
A. So this article is what is referred to in
the e-mail.
Q. And the article being the second part of
Exhibit 1099?
A. That's correct.
Q. Exhibit 1099 is an e-mail ostensibly from
Julie Harr to herself several times.
Do you know if you received a copy of this
as a bcc recipient?
A. I don't recall that I -- I don't recall
receiving copies as bcc.
Q. Do you understand what the reference is at
the top of Exhibit 1099, "Call Julie at NIA..."?
A. I do not.
Q. Is "NIA" an acronym you're familiar with,
referring to the National Insulation Association?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not aware of a --

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there was concern that content was used without
permission.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is it ASHRAE's belief
that for that reason, the use of the content was
illegal?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: My understanding of a
copyright violation is that would be unlawful.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is it ASHRAE's view that
this article violated ASHRAE's copyright?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I need to look at the
standard to confirm that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Without -- this is a
standard that you have been in charge of publishing
for at least 20 years; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And how many pages is the standard, in its
standard typesetting as a PDF?
A. Off the top of my head, 140 pages.
Q. How long is this article?
A. Four pages.
Q. How much of this article -- strike that.
What do you think the highest possible
percentage is the material in this article

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of that -- I'm not aware. Don't know.
1
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know whether the
2
National Insulation Association is responsible for
3
the publication of Insulation Outlook and
4
InsulationOutlook.com, which is the subject of this
5
message?
6
A. That seems logical. Offhand, I don't -7
I -- I don't know if there is a National Insulation
8
Association.
9
Q. Well, for the record, I looked up the phone
10
number and that's what came back.
11
A. It is? Then -12
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
13
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is it ASHRAE's position
14
that the references to Standard 90.1 in this article
15
are illegal?
16
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
17
THE WITNESS: I think the concern was
18
whether or not there was use of the cop- -- of
19
copyrighted content.
20
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) So my question is: Is it
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ASHRAE's position that the use of ASHRAE's
22
copyrighted content in this article was illegal?
23
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
24
THE WITNESS: It appears from this exchange 25

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constituted in ASHRAE's Standard 90.1?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: A very small amount of
content.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Can you assign a
percentage to that, please?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'd just be guessing for a
percentage. It's not much.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Under 5 percent?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I think that's an accurate
estimate.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Turning to the tables and
footnotes at the top of the second and third pages of
Exhibit -- sorry, of the article, Bates Nos. -027663
and -027664, it appears that those tables were taken
directly from ASHRAE's Standard 90.1, given the
references at the top of the pages; is that correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'd -- I'd have to look at
the standard to tell if they were taken directly
or not.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Could you suggest other
ways by which a writer could express the ideas

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contained in those two tables at the top of pages
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-027663 and -027664?
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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: They could likely reformat
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tables.
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What else?
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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
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THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
8
(Defendant's Exhibit 1100 was marked for
9
identification.)
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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'm showing you
11
Exhibit 1100.
12
Who is Doug Reed?
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A. He was our director of government affairs
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in Washington.
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Q. During what period of time did he hold that
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post?
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A. I can tell you more accurately when he
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ended, which was approximately -- he retired six
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months or so ago. He was employed by ASHRAE for 20
probably five to seven years before that.
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Q. Has someone succeeded him in that role?
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A. Nobody.
23
Q. Has someone else taken over his job
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functions?
25

identification.)
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I've handed you
Exhibit 1101.
Can you identify this, please?
A. Yes. This is an exchange between me and
someone from Vancouver -- City of Vancouver.
Q. That's Vancouver, Canada; correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What are the ASHRAE 90.1 2007 compliance
PDFs?
A. Those were or are forms that are -- are
used where you would enter data to -- to achieve
compliance with the -- the standard.
Q. What creative expression is in those forms,
to the best of your knowledge?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Could you ask the question
again? I'm sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What creative expression
is in those forms, to the best of your knowledge?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I -- I do not know
the -- the technical application.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Please look at the page

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A. We have several other people in our
Washington office and -- and among those people
there, they are conducting the affairs of our
Washington office.
Q. Who are those persons?
A. Jim Scarborough and Mark Ames.
Q. Are you familiar with this e-mail exchange
or with its topics?
A. I -- I do recall this now.
Q. Do you recall interest of the United States
State Department in extracting an appendix of
ASHRAE's 90.1 standard?
A. Only from -- from -- from what's in the
exchange, where I guess they asked to use Appendix B,
for which I provided that to them.
Q. And does this exhibit refresh your
recollection about that?
A. Yes -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: -- I think I did and required
it be -- be referenced from the standard.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What is Appendix B to
Standard 90.1?
A. I do not know.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1101 was marked for

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stamped with the number at the bottom -0027650.
What was the rationale for the conditions
that ASHRAE imposed upon the City of Vancouver?
A. The -- the rationale would be that -- that
the -- this -- this standard was still required to
use the forms and that there would be recognition of
the ASHRAE ownership and its copyright for the forms.
Q. Does ASHRAE sell those forms?
A. They are part of the standard.
Q. Does it sell the forms independently of the
standard?
A. No, I don't believe we do.
Q. What harm would come to ASHRAE from the
unbridled distribution of those forms?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Our -- our procedures and
policy are to maintain the copyright and to
ensure that the -- or try our best to ensure
that the forms are -- are properly used and
associated with the Society and the standard in
the correct manner.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I -- I hear that as a
concern. I -- I guess I'm not sure I heard what
harms would flow to ASHRAE from the unbridled
distribution of those forms.

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MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Our -- our process is to try
to protect our copyright whenever -- whenever we
can.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And the harm came -would come -- would be in what nature?
A. Harm would be if -- if -- if our -- if the
information was -- was made in a way that didn't
provide a -- a connection to ASHRAE as being a source
for additional information, explanation, further
background.
Q. Would it -- would ASHRAE suffer greater or
less harm if the forms were used without any
reference to ASHRAE whatsoever?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I can -- I -- I
can answer that.
Again, our process is to protect our -- our
copyright. I'm not in the position of -- of -of knowing what could be the consequences of not
using the forms properly or without reference to
ASHRAE.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1102 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Exhibit 1102 consists of

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intent of the files were kept intact. They -they couldn't be modified to the extent that
they were asking for information that weren't
part of the original files.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is there a reason ASHRAE
had to prevent people from adapting the files to
their own particular specifications or desires?
A. I believe in this case, it was to
demonstrate compliance with the standard.
Q. Is there only one way to demonstrate
compliance with the standard?
A. I'm -- I am not aware of -- I -- I don't
have the knowledge of the technical application.
Q. Was the form necessary and -- was the form
uniquely necessary to demonstrate compliance?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. I think
it was a -- it was a -- a tool to assist, an
aid.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1103 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I've handed
you Exhibit 1103. I think we've seen another
exhibit -- and I'm sorry I don't have the number
right at hand -- with some of this e-mail thread in

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other correspondence between you and Mr. McCall of
the City of Vancouver, Canada; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You mention that the files -- strike that.
You mention files on the front page of
Exhibit -- Exhibit 1102; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. What files were you referring to?
A. These would be the files of the -- of -- of
the forms.
Q. PDF files of -- of the forms?
A. We may have converted them to Word.
Q. So whatever format they were, these were
electronic files containing files in a particular
format; is that correct?
A. Yeah, they were -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: -- they were files of -of -- of -- that were formatting files.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Was there rationale as to
why ASHRAE wanted to use tamperproof formatting or
tamperproof files for these forms?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Looking back on this, that
would be so that the -- the -- the nature and

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it, but this is correspondence on which you were
copied between your assistant, Ms. Harr, and an
employee of the City of Minneapolis, I believe; is
that correct?
A. That's -- I believe that's correct.
Q. And this involves permission without a
royalty fee for use of one section and three tables
of an ASHRAE standard; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And looking at the context and the
discussions earlier, this is -- they grant under
conditions of a request to use these in one or two
Minnesota codes, namely the Minnesota Mechanical Code
and the Minnesota Commercial Energy Code; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. At the end of Ms. Harr's e-mail to
Mr. Manz, M-A-N-Z, in this exhibit, she refers to a
required copyright notice -- to a copyright notice
that ASHRAE was going to require of the City of
Minneapolis; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that notice would be required where
more than one element or more than a 50-word excerpt
from those portions of ASHRAE 90.1 2010 were going to
be used by the State of Minnesota; is that correct?

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A. That is correct.
Q. Did ASHRAE understand the final sentence of
that copyright notice to be a legal requirement? And
I quote, "This material may not be copied nor
distributed in either paper or digital form without
ASHRAE's permission"?
A. Yeah, I think that's just an expression of
our -- our wishing to maintain copyright.
Q. It's not, in your view, a statement of a
legal restriction?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I -- I can't speak to the -to the legality of this. I -- this is our
standard statement we use that we wish to have
our copyright respected.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Where did ASHRAE expect
that copyright notice to appear in either of the
Minnesota codes that were the subject of this
correspondence?
A. That would be with the applicable sections
or tables, I imagine.
Q. Was it ASHRAE's view that the Minnesota
Mechanical Code and the Minnesota Commercial Energy
Code, to the extent they included more than one
element mentioned in this e-mail or more than a

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namely Exhibit 1103, indicate such a limitation or
narrowness of ASHRAE's expectation?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Not that I read here.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1104 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Please identify
Exhibit 1104.
A. E-mail exchange between myself and David
Branson.
Q. Who is Mr. Branson?
A. He's a member of ASHRAE. He's active on
our committees.
Q. What was the subject of this
correspondence?
A. It looks like he wants to develop a
software product.
Q. Do you know whether he ended up developing
that software product?
A. I have -- I have no recollection of
anything further from -- from this message.
Q. Was it your expectation, in connection with
this correspondence, that ASHRAE would have to pay
Mr. Branson or any of his students for their efforts
on that software product?

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50-word excerpt, could not be copied or distributed
in either paper or digital form without ASHRAE's
permission?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: The intent here would be to
restrict this to the use of the ASHRAE content
that's -- that's reprinted.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Where would that be
reprinted?
A. With -- with those pertinent sections.
Q. Right.
Was it ASHRAE's expectation that to -let's assume that the section and all three tables
from ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 2010 appeared in the
Minnesota Mechanical Code. Let's assume one full
section, 6.4.4, and the three tables referred to all
appeared in the Minnesota Mechanical Code.
Was it ASHRAE's expectation that as a
consequence, the Minnesota Mechanical Code could not
be copied or distributed in either paper or digital
form without ASHRAE's permission?
A. That would not be my expectation. Those
elements separate from the -- those two codes is what
my expectation would be.
Q. Does anything in this correspondence,

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A. Could you repeat that, please?
Q. Sure.
Was it your expectation or ASHRAE's
expectation in connection with this correspondence in
Exhibit 1104 that ASHRAE would have to pay
Mr. Branson or any of his students for their efforts
on the software product?
A. If we developed a software product with
Mr. Branson, we'd have an agreement to do that and
the agreement would spell out those terms and perhaps
a distribu- -- perhaps a distribution agreement.
Q. Does anything in this exchange of
correspondence in 1104 indicate an expectation of
payment on Mr. Branson's part or on his students'
part?
A. Payment from ASHRAE to Mr. Branson?
Q. Or his students, correct.
A. I don't think so. I don't recall anything.
Q. ASHRAE, in fact, had an expectation that it
could use the apps that Mr. Branson and his students
developed in order to gain revenue for ASHRAE,
correct -MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- if you look at the
bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3 of the

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correspondence?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: So what I was suggesting here
was, yes, the possibility that he would develop
an app for ASHRAE.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And there's also a
suggestion of the possibility that the app that he
would develop for ASHRAE would provide a modest
revenue stream, looking at the top of page 3 of the
exhibit; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you see that Mr. Branson had -- strike
that.
Do you see that Mr. Branson expressed a
possible motivation for developing the app? At the
bottom of page 3, he said, "I was looking for
something to use in a coding exercise, and noted that
90.1 could possibly be a fit. I also determined that
this could be an easy way to get the Standard into
the hands of a huge number of Authorities Having
Jurisdiction (building inspectors, fire marshals,
etc.), engineers, and contractors."
Do you see that?
A. I -- I -- I see where he wrote that, yes.
Q. To this date, has ASHRAE developed an app

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building inspectors and fire marshals, as well as
engineers and contractors?
A. Nothing specific I'm aware of other than
the -- the agreements we had with ICC for
distribution of 90.1.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1105 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, I'm going
to be handing you a series of documents in the nature
of financial discovery that we received from ASHRAE,
and I just want to get you to identify or
authenticate them, if you can. So there won't be a
lot of questions on these.
Do you understand this printout, which we
received from ASHRAE, to represent accurately the
dues -- membership dues revenues that ASHRAE has
received each year from 2002-3 to 2013-14?
A. Yes. And the question was?
Q. Do you understand this printout to
represent accurately the membership dues revenues for
each of the corresponding years?
A. They appear to be. I don't know the exact
numbers, but they appear to be relatively accurate.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1106 was marked for
identification.)

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of the sort Mr. Branson was suggesting?
A. We are develop- -- we're -- we're just
beginning development now of an app that would be
tied in with compliance for the standard. Let's see
what was he suggesting.
90.1 checklist. It -- it -- what we're
developing may be very similar to what he was
thinking of doing, as well. There's much interest
in -- in -- in publishing about making -- having
electronic tools that help make books and documents
easier to use in different formats.
Q. Of course, at the bottom of page 3, he
wasn't suggesting making the documents easy to use.
He said, "I also determined that this could be an
easy way to get the Standard into the hands of a huge
number of Authorities Having Jurisdiction (building
inspectors, fire marshals, etc.), engineers, and
contractors."
Do you see that?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Has ASHRAE on its own
taken any steps since this exchange of correspondence
in 2010 to get the standard into the hands of a huge
number of authorities having jurisdiction, such as

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I ask you to look at
Exhibit 1106, which again I'll represent to you is a
document that we received in discovery from ASHRAE.
Does this appear to you to be an acc- -accurate representation of the sales of the ASHRAE
90.1 standards for three different versions of the IP
version, the inches pounds version?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. Did the member price and retail price of
those standards change over those three versions?
A. I do not believe so. I don't think between
2010 and '07. I can't recall if '04 had a different
price.
Q. Do you know -- I'm not sure that we have -or maybe I don't have handy -- the corresponding
figures for the SA version.
There was an SA version at one point?
A. SI.
Q. SI?
A. Yeah.
Q. I'm sorry.
Do you recall roughly how they compared to
these numbers?
A. They'd be much smaller.
Q. Much smaller?

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A. Yeah.
Q. Would the -- would the pattern of growth
and diminishment be equivalent, in your view?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Let me say this: Would
the trends be equivalent to the trends evident in
Exhibit 1106, in your view?
A. I don't think you'd have as many sales of
older versions.
Q. Otherwise, would the trends be roughly
equivalent?
A. The market for the SI version is overseas,
so much smaller numbers.
And -- what do you mean by -- by -- what -by trends? What do you mean?
Q. Well, for example, if you look in the
middle, the 2007, the numbers grew substantially as a
percentage of the previous year until they peaked,
and then they went down a bit and then fell very
substantially.
A. When the standard is -- is newly released,
the sales are higher.
Q. Right.
And my question just has to do with the -whether the graph that might describe the SI sales

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various formats or from various channels, I guess is
a better description.
Q. Did you prepare this chart?
A. Someone in my group did.
Q. Is it -- is this -- does this reflect
current projections?
A. That's correct.
Q. And does this show all of the methods and
channels of monetization of the standards themselves,
as opposed to other activities that may involve the
standards?
A. Those that are directly related to the
standards, yes.
Q. Okay. Is there a reason why ASHRAE
projects lower -- a lower -- or a declining trend in
projected revenue of PDF sales?
A. That would be tied to the cycle of the
standard.
Q. Would that imply, then, that over these
three years, the standards would be approaching end
of their current life as a new version of the
standard being prepared?
A. That's right, that would -- yes, that's
correct. That would occur in some place around
'16 -- 2016-2017, which is probably why it goes back

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would be roughly analogous to the graph describing
the IP sales in terms of the slope and peak and the
like.
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't think you'd have as
many years. The -- the sales would be focused
on those years when the SI version was current.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) And when you say the SI
sales are much smaller, what's your best estimate as
a percentage of the IP sales?
A. Let me look at -- for 2013, for example, if
you ask me what the SI version of the 2010 would be,
a hundred.
Q. A hundred quantity?
A. A hundred quantity, yeah. That may even be
a little on the high side. That's -- I'm guessing at
that now, but...
Q. But that's an estimate?
A. That's correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1107 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Exhibit 1107 is a
document that ASHRAE produced to us in discovery.
Can you identify it, please?
A. These are sales of -- of -- of standards in

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up a little bit.
Q. All right. I'm sorry. I misread it.
You're -- you're correct. So my description of the
trend was inaccurate.
Looking at the 2014-2015 projected revenue,
how did those numbers compare with the projected
revenue for 20- -- or, I'm sorry. Strike that.
How did those numbers compare with the
actual revenue for 2013 to 2014?
A. My guess is this number's a little bit
higher.
Q. The number in the projections?
A. That's -- the '14-'15 year is probably
projected slightly higher than '13-'14.
Q. Thank you.
Please look back at Exhibit 1106. What's
interesting to me is that the peak revenue for the
different standards doesn't appear to be in the year
of introduction of a new standard. So that's just a
statement, but let me then ask you a question.
If we look at the numbers for 90.1 2004,
that standard was introduced in 2004; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Its peak sales were in 2007; correct?
A. Correct.

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Q. And if we look at the 2007 version -- it
was introduced in 2007 -- its peak sales were in
2009; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. What, in your view, causes peak sales to
lag maybe two years or so, maybe two or three years,
behind the introduction of a new version?
A. Typically, our standards will come out late
in the year, so I'm assuming this is a calendar year,
how this was done. Yeah, I'm quite sure a calendar
year.
So it wouldn't come out early in that year,
it would come out somewhere around the midpoint of
the year, sometime later than June 1. So that would
certainly explain why you would have -- see the -the sales then the next year.
Now, why it may lag two years behind, that
could be cases where there's more awareness of the
standard, there's more knowledge that there's a newer
version available and it may catch up in that manner.
But it doesn't surprise me it's one year
behind. Two years, it -- it may be that that -- that
that -- the big boost of sales is early in that -that second year out and then it starts dipping down
again towards the latter half of the year.

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about to forget my own name.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't going to help.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock, what is
Exhibit 1108?
A. This is a sales by customer type report.
Q. Could you please go through the various
columns and indicate what those headings mean?
A. Sure. So "Product Code" is the code for a
particular item, book, document that we sell.
"Non-Member" would be sales to someone
who's not a member of ASHRAE, both quantity and
dollars.
Sales to members at -- at member prices,
quantity and amount.
Book dealers would be those organizations
that buy products in bulk and resell.
Then same pattern for school libraries,
public libraries, subscription agencies, and
bookstores.
Q. Does this page refer to any sales of
standards?
A. This page does not.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1109 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Same questions with

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Q. But if we look at the peak year for 2004,
that came in 2007 after two full years.
A. Yeah, I -Q. Could it have to do with that -- the fact
that awareness of these codes flowed in part from
their incorporation by governments into laws and
regulations requiring -MR. LEWIS: Object.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) -- more persons to
consult and apply the standards?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not sure.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is that an ex- -- a
possible explanation for it?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I would think that's a
possible explanation.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1108 was marked for
identification.)
MR. LEWIS: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. -- I'm sorry, I'm now
spacing. I've forgotten your name.
MR. BECKER: Comstock.
MR. BRIDGES: Comstock. I'm so sorry. I'm

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respect to Exhibit 1109. I don't think we need to
repeat the columns, but the question is: Does this
exhibit reflect any sales of standards?
A. This page does not reflect sale of
standards.
Q. Is there a reference to "Out of Print"?
A. I see "Not Available."
Q. If we look about two-thirds of the way -or I guess 60 percent of the way down -A. "Out of Print," yes, I see that.
Q. It's "01"- -- sorry, "081900 Out of Print.
Use 01940."
That's just referring to a work farther
down in the -- in the list there; correct?
A. I see the "Doubt of" -- the "Out of Print"
references now.
Q. Down below there are items that say "Not
available thru ASHRAE."
Do you know what that is?
A. I -- I do not know.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1110 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Could you please identify
Exhibit 1110?
A. This is an e-mail exchange started by Jodi

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Scott.
Q. Are you familiar with the discussions that
are contained within this e-mail?
A. This -- only what I read here.
Q. At the end of Mr. Ames' e-mail at the top,
he said, "Standards community lobbyists are keeping a
close watch on this...."
Do you have any idea who the lobbyists for
ASHRAE are and have been?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I don't know what
he's referring to here.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Who is Michael Burgess,
do you know?
A. Is he on this?
Q. He's on a different -A. Different.
There was a -- a member on our board,
Michael Burgess, from California. I'm not sure if
that's who's being referred to.
Q. Xpera Group?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Vague.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) That's I think -MR. BRIDGES: You're right. It is vague.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Does that name ring a

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that would -- that would be applicable.
Q. But do you know why ASHRAE allows ANSI to
make its standards available for free viewing?
A. I would say only because they're also ANSI
standards.
Q. Are all ASHRAE standards ANSI standards?
A. No. There are some that are not.
Q. Do you know whether ANSI makes available
for public viewing all of ASHRAE's ANSI standards?
A. I do not know.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1111 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I've handed you
Exhibit 1111.
This is an exchange of e-mails among ANSI
employees and also ASHRAE employees; correct?
A. I'm not -- I do not know who all those
people are.
Q. Who is Cindy Simmons?
A. Cindy Simmons is our controller. I -- I do
recognize the names on the top message.
Q. Mr. Littleton is the executive director of
ASHRAE; correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And he says to the others, "You will want

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bell with you as being associated with Mr. Burgess?
A. Could you repeat the name of that?
Q. Xpera Group.
A. No, it does not.
Q. Do you receive copies of e-mails on a
distribution list from the ASHRAE board of directors?
A. Typically not.
Q. You're not part of ASHRAE-BOD?
A. I am not.
Q. Has ASHRAE published any information to its
members about this lawsuit?
A. I do not believe we have.
Q. When did -- strike that.
Has ASHRAE given per- -- permission to ANSI
to make ASHRAE standards available for free on-line?
A. I believe they have a reading room at which
we allowed for free viewing some years ago, I
believe.
Q. Do you know why ASHRAE makes its
standards -- strike that.
Do you know why ASHRAE allows ANSI to make
ASHRAE's standards available for free viewing?
A. My assumption would be that they would only
be the -- the ANSI-approved standards. So they're
ANSI -- ANSI standards, as well as ASHRAE standards

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1 to read the testimony referenced below. No e-mails,
2 please"; correct?
3

A. That's correct.

4

Q. What conversations occurred regarding the

5 testimony that this e-mail thread refers to?
6

A. Personally, I don't recall any

7 conversations about the -- about the -- the -- the
8 thread or the items in the thread.
9

Q. Do you recall any other non-written

10 communications?
11
12

A. No, no.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1112 was marked for

13

identification.)

14

Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock,

15 Exhibit 1112 is a document that ASHRAE's furnished to
16 us in discovery.
17

Are you familiar with the -- with this

18 e-mail?
19

A. I -- yeah, I have a recollection of it now

20 that I see it.
21

Q. So it appears to be an exchange between

22 Kimberly Gates of ASHRAE and Thomas Long, a member of
23 ASHRAE and chair of the Chapter Education Committee;
24 is that -25

A. That's correct, yes.

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Q. Is that what this e-mail correspondence is
about?
A. That is correct.
Q. Who is Kimberly Gates?
A. She manages our inventory. She works in my
group.
Q. Do you know anything about Thomas Long
beyond what's indicated in this e-mail?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know anything about Larry Spiel- -Spielvogel?
A. He's been a member of ASHRAE for the whole
time I've been an employee.
Q. Has he had any leadership roles?
A. He was on our board of directors at some
point. He -- he's been a -- certainly on many
committees.
Q. Who is Kristina Rayford?
A. She was an employee who reported to
Kimberly Gates.
Q. What did you understand about Mr. Long's
needs for print copies of the standard?
A. It appears as if he was organizing a
chapter seminar at which he wished to have copies of
the standard for the seminar.

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Q. And is it ASHRAE's understanding that it
needed to give permission to New York State in order
for New York State to incorporate the materials by
reference?
A. I can't speak to that. My involvement was
their contacting us to ask if they could make copies
for their libraries, which I granted.
Q. Are ASHRAE's standards available in most
public libraries, to your knowledge?
A. I -- I do not know.
Q. If -- if someone living in New York City
and interested in some of the legal requirements that
pertains to ASHRAE standards wanted to review what
those legal requirements were, what would that
person's practical options be for reviewing the
standards?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I think in New York State,
they would go to one of those libraries.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) What about someone in
Brunswick, Georgia?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm not aware what library
facilities may have our standards.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Do you know what

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Q. And it appears that chapter -- chapters
wanting to use ASHRAE standards have to buy those
standards from the organization; is that correct?
A. Well, from a source. I mean, we -certainly from us, but there's others, as well.
Q. But -- but a chapter doesn't get a special
dispensation to get free copies of standards for
chapter education?
A. No, that's correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1113 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Exhibit 1113 is something
that ASHRAE produced to us in deposition -- sorry, in
discovery. That was correcting it. The record
should reflect that.
Do you recall this document?
A. Vaguely.
Q. Is this a request from a New York State
agency?
A. That is correct.
Q. What do you recall about the context of
this?
A. I believe it was to maintain copies in
libraries in New York State so they could be
referenced.

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libraries in Georgia have ASHRAE's standards, the
ones that have been incorporated -A. I do not.
Q. -- into law?
A. I would just process requests like this.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1114 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock,
Exhibit 1114 is an exchange of correspondence between
you and a gentleman in Canada regarding creation of a
code and guideline; is that correct?
A. That appears to be the case.
Q. And in it you quoted a price of $10 per
table with a minimum fee of $25 for your
correspondent to extract tables or figures from the
standard; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And, in fact, the person wanted
to take information from the tables and figures, as
opposed to the formatted tables and figures
themselves; is that correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) At least that's evident
in his statement in the e-mail; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection. Vague.

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THE WITNESS: I -- I think that was a
question I had, whether or not they would be
lifted exactly as they were.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I mean, I think he
answered no to that; correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't see my reply to that.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Yeah, I don't see your
reply, but this seems to be his reply to you.
"If you lifted tables or figures exactly as
they were," and you go on to say more, and he
responds by saying, "We will not be using tables and
figures exactly as they are in the standard; they
will instead be applied to the needs of this proj- -this project. Also, we will be using some text as it
appears in the standard but not taking exact pages of
text from it."
Does that suggest to you that he was
looking for the formatting and expression of the
standard or the information in the standard?
A. That would suggest to me it's the
information and I would not charge a fee.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1115 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I'm handing you a -- an

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which consists of an e-mail followed by several
pages. This is the way they were produced to us. I
think the several pages after the first two were in a
separate file associated with the e-mail on top, so I
suspect that after the second page of the exhibit,
we're looking at the attachment, "How to Use
RightsLink.doc."
Is that your understanding looking at the
document, as well?
A. Yes.
Q. And, again, this is an e-mail by your
assistant, Julie Harr, to someone outside of ASHRAE
apparently named Sam Hurt, who describes himself on
page 2; is that right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Do the pages in the apparent attachment
starting on the third page of the exhibit depict the
RightsLink process?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. And it depicts the RightsLink process as
ASHRAE offered it to persons wishing to seek
permission to use ASHRAE material; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1117 was marked for
identification.)

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Exhibit 1115. This is as we received, a group of
documents, it appears to us, from ASHRAE in
discovery.
And I was wondering if you had an
understanding as to what this group of documents is.
MR. LEWIS: There's quite a bit there, so
take your time.
THE WITNESS: These appear to be various
reprint requests that Julie Harr had processed
or involved with.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Is it your understanding
that she compiled and gathered these various
requests?
A. Yes, that's what I believe has happened.
Q. Did she compile it for purposes of
discovery in the case?
A. I -- I believe that's the case. I believe
she was asked for samples.
Q. So these are samples from the -- from
ASHRAE's records?
A. That's -- that's my understanding.
Q. Thank you.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1116 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I hand you Exhibit 1116,

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Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Mr. Comstock,
Exhibit 1117 is an exchange -- strike that.
Exhibit 1117 is a series of e-mails, one to
you from someone named Mike Moore and then another
from you forwarding it to your assistant; is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And in the top e-mail, this is your
communication to your assistant on how to respond to
the request in Mr. Moore's e-mail; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
(Defendant's Exhibit 1118 was marked for
identification.)
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) I hand you Exhibit 1118.
This is a series of e-mails between you and Mike
Moore, who we referred to in a previous exhibit,
followed by a response to you from Steve Comstock,
who you had copied on one of your e-mails to
Mr. Moore; is that correct?
MR. LEWIS: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Steve Ferguson.
Q. (By Mr. Bridges) Yes, I apologize. Let me
restate that.
This is a series of e-mails between you and
Mike Moore, whom we referred to in a previous

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exhibit, followed by a response to you from Steve
Ferguson, whom you had copied on one of your e-mails
to Mr. Moore; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What is Steve Ferguson's role?
A. He's -- he's in our standards group and he
works with code bodies.
Q. And what do you mean by "code bodies"?
A. Oh, I guess code-writing groups like -- so
he would go to code hearings, for example, for codes
that are considered for adoption.
Q. Is that codes within ASHRAE or outside
ASHRAE or both?
A. External to ASHRAE.
Q. External.
When you say "codes being considered for
adoption," do you mean codes being considered for
adoption into law or regulation?
A. I think it's building codes. Steve, he's
outside of my group so I'm not sure exact- -- exactly
what his responsibilities are, but they are in the
codes arena within our standards area.
Q. Can you explain the context of the e-mails
in Exhibit 1118, please?
A. So it looks like this fellow, Mike Moore,

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If ASHRAE did it, then that was the -- the
standards people involved thought that was a -- that
it was a -- a good technical solution to submit our
content.
So -- but at that time, there was concerns
about whether somebody else -- somebody else using
our content and submitted it.
Q. Does ASHRAE 90.1 include any content from
other standards organizations?
A. I don't believe so.
MR. BRIDGES: Why don't we take a short
break and then I think I may have a few wrap-up
questions, but I think I'm through with the
documents. Oh, sorry, I may have one more.
Oh, yes, let me just do this. No.
So let's take a break, we'll do a short
regroup, and then we'll have just a final set of
questions.
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of Video 4
We're off the record at 6:38 p m.
(Thereupon, there was an interruption in
the proceedings.)
VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of
Video 5. We're on the record at 6:45 p.m.

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wanted to get permission from ASHRAE for use of
content.
And besides what I -- I really can't recall
any of the background for this besides what I can
read here.
Q. You refer to ICC policies as having been
made clear to us.
Do you recall what that means?
A. Yeah. Back in this era -- this is quite
some -- it was quite a few years ago -- when ASHRAE
content was submitted to the ICC at the time, ASHRAE
lost the copyright of the con- -- ownership of the
content.
Q. Do you know what specific documents you're
referring to?
A. I real- -- I think this was back -probably IECC, the International Energy Conservation
Code, is probably the document that this was to be
include- -- yes, IECC.
Q. And does this reference mean that somehow
ASHRAE lost the copyright because of an ICC policy?
A. That's -- that was my understanding at the
time, that if -- if our content was submitted by
somebody to ICC, then we would lose the ownership of
that.

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MR. BRIDGES: Mr. Comstock, I have no
further questions. Thank you very much.
VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
deposition. We're going off the record at
6:46 p.m.
(Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at
6:46 p.m.)
(Pursuant to Rule 30(e) of the Federal
Rules of Civil Procedure and/or O.C.G.A.
9-11-30(e), signature of the witness has been
reserved.)

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CERTIFICATE

STATE OF GEORGIA:
4
COUNTY OF FULTON:
5
6
I hereby certify that the foregoing transcript was
7 taken down, as stated in the caption, and the
questions and answers thereto were reduced to
8 typewriting under my direction; that the foregoing
pages represent a true, complete, and correct
9 transcript of the evidence given upon said hearing,
and I further certify that I am not of kin or counsel
10 to the parties in the case; am not in the regular
employ of counsel for any of said parties; nor am I
11 in anywise interested in the result of said case.
12
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16 LEE ANN BARNES, CCR B-1852, RPR, CRR
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Page 198
1
DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET
2
3 Our Assignment No. 2023730
Case Caption: AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING
4 AND MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL, et al. vs.
PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.
5
DECLARATION UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY
6
I declare under penalty of perjury
that I have read the entire transcript of
7 my Deposition taken in the captioned matter
or the same has been read to me, and
8 the same is true and accurate, save and
except for changes and/or corrections, if
9 any, as indicated by me on the DEPOSITION
ERRATA SHEET hereof, with the understanding
10 that I offer these changes as if still under
oath.
11
Signed on the ______ day of
____________, 20___.
12
___________________________________
13
STEVEN COMSTOCK
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13 10:21 177:14
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132 5:19,21
133 5:22
136 5:23
14 10:21 177:13,14
140 156:20
140008 54:4
145 5:24
149 5:25
15 11:1 21:1 26:13
29:17 37:20 51:20
53:3 55:20,22,23
95:23 177:13
150 6:3
151 6:4,6
152 6:7
157 6:8
158 6:9
16 176:25
161 6:10
163 6:11

167 6:12
171 6:13,14
174 6:15
178 6:16
179 6:17
18 10:21
180 6:18
183 6:19
184 6:20
1852 1:23 198:16
186 6:21
188 6:22
188,000 56:2
189 6:23
189.1 130:22
190 6:24
191 7:3
192 7:4
1970s 122:18
1975 38:5
1985 9:21
199 1:25
1:13 1:12
1:43 68:14
2
2 48:3 102:11 127:9
127:11 169:25
192:14
20 42:17,24 43:5
156:16 177:7
199:11
20,000 14:12
200,000 61:20,21
62:1
2000 9:23 53:16
20004-2541 2:19
2002-3 172:17
2004 177:21,22
179:1
2007 49:21 53:16,22
113:16 115:13
117:9,13,14,15
120:7 160:10
174:17 177:24
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[2007 - acquire]
178:1,2 179:2
2009 114:12 130:23
178:3
2010 13:10 26:19,21
27:5 29:1 30:11
31:8 49:7,20 50:4
53:15 125:21
130:22 165:24
167:14 171:24
173:12 175:12
2011 52:19
2012 127:4,5
2013 132:24 139:13
175:11 177:9
2013-14 172:17
2014 177:9
2014-2015 177:5
2015 1:18 8:1,11
2016-2017 176:25
202.739.3001 2:20
202.739.5118 2:19
2023730 199:3
23 10:21
230,000 56:3,9
24 10:21
25 189:14
26 139:13
27th 2:12
28202 2:6
2:46 102:12
3
3 102:16 121:10
151:14 169:25
170:9,16 171:12
30 1:16 5:4 8:9
10:17,21 26:15
197:8
300 14:7,8
30309 1:22
31 10:21
322,000 53:4
33 97:11
34 37:20

3625 1:21
3900 2:6
3:07 102:16
4
4 10:20 120:20,23
120:24 151:19
196:20
4/19/10 6:21
40 9:16 13:9
400,000 14:8
415.281.1350 3:6
415.512.4000 2:13
415.875.2300 3:5
45 55:25 56:5
45,000 13:9 56:5
450,000 36:24
4:45 151:15
4:58 151:19
5
5 1:18 8:1,10 10:21
16:8 61:16,25,25
120:20 121:3,8,9
157:10 196:25
50 165:23 167:1
500 22:15 27:11
500,000 14:8
52 5:5
55 37:19
555 3:4
560 2:12
6
6 1:16 5:4 8:9 10:17
121:10
6.4.4 167:16
60 181:9
62.1 37:15 72:4 73:7
129:12
665 153:21
67 5:6
6:38 196:21
6:45 196:25
6:46 197:5,7

7
7 10:21
7,000 27:6
704.503.2583 2:7
704.503.2622 2:7
75 11:14
750 22:16
8
8 4:3 10:21 16:8
8.b 8:4
800,000 14:10
85 32:16
9
9 5:3 10:21
9,000 27:6
9-11-30 197:10
90 27:5 32:16 38:2,3
38:4 39:8 56:9,9
90.1 6:14 13:8,14
22:15 25:20,24,25
26:2,17,21 27:5,10
27:13 28:4 29:1,11
29:15,22 30:10,11
31:8 35:22 36:4,5
37:8,25 42:16,23
43:4,11 49:7,20,21
51:7 54:21 55:20
56:7,24 58:9 72:3
73:13,24 74:11
113:16 115:12
117:9,13,13,15
120:1,7 125:5,21
128:11 129:12
130:22 132:24
155:15 157:1,18
159:12,23 160:10
165:24 167:14
170:18 171:6 173:6
177:21 196:8
90.1. 30:5 49:4
71:24 113:1 128:8
153:9 172:5

94104 3:5
94105 2:13
99 29:16 114:15
a
a.m. 1:19 8:12 47:24
48:4
ability 23:19 90:18
able 12:5 23:16
43:14,22 45:7 61:3
78:4 79:17,20,22
94:2,10 95:6,10
abridges 3:6
abundance 98:17
academic 136:11
acc 173:4
access 10:24 11:1
12:1 13:14 14:2
26:18,20 27:7 33:8
43:23 50:16 57:19
57:20,22 58:5 78:21
79:6,22 80:7,10
81:1 82:17 83:24
85:3 89:15 90:1
101:5 103:3 105:6
107:24 108:4,6,8
117:1,2,13,18 136:7
accessed 12:15
28:17
accesses 13:6
accessing 80:16
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account 31:9 101:20
101:22 129:19
accuracy 121:21
accurate 14:19
157:12 172:23
173:5 199:8
accurately 158:18
172:15,20
achieve 160:13
achieved 26:9 31:3
acquire 105:1

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[acquired - appeared]
acquired 64:19
acronym 154:22
act 104:12
acting 125:11
action 1:11 67:20
101:15 146:22
active 168:12
actively 28:20
activities 30:17
60:17 61:15 71:4
72:5,21,22 73:16
74:2,18 75:2 176:10
activity 75:4 89:5
138:3
acts 52:20,20 93:24
94:13
actual 177:9
adapting 164:6
add 14:13 34:24
60:19 153:11
added 9:22 27:15
29:2 30:2 33:21
34:11 35:15,16 38:5
40:9 49:21 80:22
addenda 115:6,15
115:17,20 116:7,9
116:14,19 117:2,13
117:23
addendum 116:10
116:13
addition 59:23
additional 115:8
127:24 162:10
address 69:1 112:6
addressing 98:24
adequate 17:19
administering 60:6
administrative
47:13
administrator 138:2
adobe 41:16,17
adopt 17:22 99:11
99:12 100:8 127:4
adopted 17:2,3,11
98:20 99:7 100:18

101:2
adopting 128:2
adoption 16:19
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152:25 194:11,17
194:18
adopts 99:24
advance 75:8,13,18
75:22 95:13
advantage 106:24
advantageous
144:10
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72:19 74:6
advising 108:18
affairs 158:14 159:3
affect 15:2
affirmative 25:22
139:22 140:12
affirmatively 37:11
105:23 114:1
afternoon 68:15,16
age 112:7
agencies 89:8
180:18
agency 52:10 187:19
ago 10:1 11:2 21:2
21:14 24:22 40:16
43:13 95:23 158:20
183:17 195:10
agr 85:17
agree 78:11 79:8
84:14 112:9,11
118:17
agreed 116:12
agreement 5:11,20
55:11 56:1,2,4,6
58:12 80:15 84:15
85:8,17 93:3,6,8
103:16 114:6,19
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123:11 133:16,18
133:20 169:9,10,11
agreements 57:19
57:22 58:5 84:14,22

172:4
ahead 88:9 153:19
ahmed 42:3
aid 164:19
air 1:9 2:3 8:23
37:21 69:13,16
75:19 77:1,2,3,6
137:12
al 199:4
alert 150:22 151:2
151:11
alerts 151:5,6
alewis 2:8
allied 75:20
allow 12:4 17:25
87:2 111:15 112:7
128:14
allowed 44:16 63:13
183:17
allowing 95:1
allows 183:21 184:2
alter 92:9
altered 90:19 100:1
alternative 88:20
amazon 106:9
107:20
amended 5:3
amendments 127:6
american 1:4,8 2:3
2:15 8:21 9:2 199:3
ames 159:6 182:5
amount 16:2 31:14
33:19,20 44:22 46:1
46:20 51:14,17 56:6
69:24 97:9 146:17
157:3 180:14
amounts 61:18
analogous 24:4 28:3
28:18 175:1
ancillary 74:7
andrew 3:3 8:15
anecdotal 18:17
19:2
anecdotally 63:11

ann 1:23 198:16
annotations 44:10
108:13
annual 34:6
ansi 30:25,25 32:10
32:21 140:14 141:2
141:9 183:14,21,24
183:25,25 184:2,4,6
184:8,9,15
ansi's 32:17
answer 13:18 27:24
28:8 50:2 56:17
97:6 131:14,14
147:7 162:17
answer's 96:21
answered 30:13
156:11 190:5
answers 56:12 198:7
anticipate 68:5
anticipating 135:3
antonio 2:5 8:20
anybody 50:20 65:5
anyone's 66:16
anyway 111:11
anywise 198:11
apart 18:16 54:14
57:7 61:24 63:17
66:9,11 71:5 72:6
74:18 80:24 86:4
93:22 94:11 105:14
105:21 109:2,4
110:1,12 111:2
apologize 193:22
app 73:8,9,13 170:5
170:7,15,25 171:3
apparent 192:16
apparently 192:13
appear 166:17
172:22,23 173:4
177:18 191:8
appearance 86:12
appearances 2:1 3:1
appeared 116:15
167:14,17
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[appears - ashrae's]
appears 53:14
102:23 103:10
112:25 124:10
127:1 129:10 131:1
150:22 155:25
157:17 185:21
186:23 187:1
189:12 190:16
191:2
appendix 159:11,14
159:22
applicable 166:20
184:1
application 21:5,7
21:12 71:13 73:23
77:13 160:24
164:13
applications 71:22
75:25
applied 71:14
131:16 190:14
applies 103:8
apply 78:1 83:11
84:24 88:19 89:5,11
103:1,13,14,19
110:23 121:18
179:10
applying 43:25 77:4
approach 46:7
103:22
approached 52:22
53:25
approaching 176:20
appropriate 73:22
77:12,13 84:24
101:14
approve 16:12 22:6
41:7 85:1
approved 115:6,15
183:24
approving 42:8,9
approximate 29:21
approximately
59:15 158:19

apps 73:3,6 169:20
area 17:15 138:3
194:22
areas 81:4
arena 194:22
arguments 45:2
arising 93:24 94:13
arrangement 55:2
article 8:4 42:16,23
43:4 44:25 45:9,22
45:23,24 135:16,20
153:7 154:2,8,10
155:15,23 156:10
156:21,23,25
157:16
articles 47:6 72:15
72:18 74:5 135:25
138:25 143:11
articulated 39:10
arts 75:18,20
ash 39:11 146:19
ashmae 150:18
ashrae 5:4 9:15
10:17,20,23 11:4,10
11:19,25 12:14
13:21 14:1,20,23
16:17,25 17:7 18:18
19:18,25 20:4,7,12
20:14,16,19,23
23:11,14 25:21
26:17,20 28:4,25
29:11,14,18,20,22
30:11,11,23 31:1,8
31:8 33:2,14,17
37:24,25,25 38:1,7
38:14,22,25 39:6,11
39:16,20,21 41:23
42:6 46:4 48:7,9,13
48:24 49:8,9,20
50:6,7,10,11,14
51:6,21 52:15 53:24
54:7,9,12,14 55:10
56:22 57:1,6,18,21
58:4 59:17 62:20
63:3,5,7,17 64:9,12

64:13 65:3 66:3,13
66:17 67:3,13,16,17
67:18,19 69:2,19
70:1,11,20 71:4,10
72:6,14,16,23 73:2
73:3 74:2,18 76:6
77:10,17 78:15,22
79:6 80:10 81:1
83:14 84:2,9 85:1,4
85:14,19 86:2,10,16
87:12,23 88:1 89:7
89:9 90:16 91:7
92:18 93:22,24 94:2
94:11,20 97:4 98:4
99:11,23 100:7,24
101:2,5,14 103:2,9
103:15,23,24 104:1
104:3,7,9,13,23,23
104:24 106:2,3,8,17
106:20,22 107:3,4
107:13,14,15,18
108:2,11,12,19,19
108:22,25 109:2,7,8
109:14,19,25 110:5
110:6,23,23 111:17
111:22 112:12,22
113:6 114:14,23
115:6,16 117:9,23
118:3,20 120:3,22
121:4 123:14,17,19
123:20 124:1 125:4
125:5,12,20 126:18
126:24 127:13,17
128:3,4 129:11,12
129:16,20 130:13
131:4,7,10,12,13,17
131:21 132:7,23
133:16 134:19
136:18,20 137:1,5
137:10,22 138:18
139:6 145:25
146:19 147:3,12,12
147:16,18,20,24
148:2,3 149:12
151:1,10 152:3,12

152:14,25 153:1,8,8
154:5 158:20
160:10 161:3,7,8,13
161:24 162:9,12,14
162:22 163:21
164:5 165:8,19,24
166:2,16 167:6
168:12,23 169:5,16
169:19,21 170:5,8
170:25 171:22
172:10,15,16 173:3
173:5 175:23
176:14 180:11
181:18 182:9 183:6
183:8,10,14,15,19
183:21,25 184:2,6
184:16,23 185:22
185:23 186:12
187:2,13 188:13
191:2 192:12,21,22
194:12,13,14 195:1
195:10,11,21 196:1
196:8
ashrae's 10:24
11:15 12:8 13:13
15:2,14 17:11 32:6
35:21 37:8,9 38:15
42:2 44:14 45:5,14
52:5 58:17 59:9
60:3 61:4 75:16,17
75:21 80:11 81:2
84:8,10 86:4,12
90:1 92:22 93:9
94:21 96:1,4,24
99:24 100:8 105:7
105:14 106:24
108:23 109:4,5,9
111:4,5 120:7
123:15 130:15
147:2 150:19
155:14,22,22 156:3
156:9,10 157:1,18
159:12 166:6,22
167:2,12,14,18,21
168:2 169:3 183:22
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[ashrae's - believe]
184:9 185:15 188:1
188:8 189:1 191:20
ashrae.org 5:7
102:24
ashrae0027658
153:20
ashraexchange
111:23
aside 43:20 45:12
asked 19:3 21:22
30:13 37:4,5 41:13
63:12 65:20 156:11
159:14 191:18
asking 65:17 99:21
118:16,16 122:22
144:17 164:3
asme 137:4
aspects 41:5
assign 157:5
assignment 199:3
assist 73:22 76:9
94:24 164:18
assistant 47:13
97:13 104:10,12,17
125:9 126:17,24
134:22 146:10
151:25 165:2
192:12 193:5,9
assistant's 47:15
104:17
associated 51:14
52:6 62:9 81:6,8,20
82:16,20 91:5 92:2
100:22 161:20
183:1 192:4
association 1:7 2:10
9:5 137:13 149:19
149:21,25 154:23
155:3,9
association's 88:15
assortment 106:14
assume 19:20 34:1
73:24 131:18 153:8
167:13,15

assuming 178:9
assumption 54:17
103:12 114:13
120:15,16 183:23
ast 106:2
astm 1:5 2:16 24:4
24:11,12 25:5
124:15,19 140:14
140:19 141:2,9
142:19,24 145:25
199:4
atlanta 1:22
attachment 134:4
153:14 154:6 192:6
192:16
attempt 46:16
116:25
attendance 74:12
attention 67:8 99:18
99:19 109:7 128:8
135:1,4,17 149:3
154:4
attributable 30:5
35:20 36:3 59:15
60:17
attributed 61:19
audience 55:12,15
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author 108:20
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authority 130:7
authorization
109:11,13
authorize 108:11
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107:12
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107:4
availability 48:25
available 10:25 11:5
11:16,18,19 12:18
13:12 20:13 22:24
27:19 28:15 41:15
41:18 43:12 44:20

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89:1 90:1,7,24 91:9
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106:5,22 107:25
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121:14 135:23
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181:7,18 183:15,22
184:3,8 188:8
ave 2:18
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48:12,15,17,23 63:7
65:1,4,5,7,9,12,22
66:3,8 67:3,7,9 86:2
86:15 99:3,22 100:2
100:14,17 103:16
104:5 110:14 111:3
111:14 112:17
122:9,11,14,15,16
123:19,22 124:1
131:20 135:21,24
136:2,25 137:4,10
137:14 138:18,22
139:2,6,8 143:18
144:25 145:2,8
146:5 147:2,9 151:1
151:9 154:25 155:1
164:12 172:3
188:23
awareness 46:11
86:10 143:24
144:21 145:21
178:18 179:5
b
b 1:5,16 2:16 3:4 5:4
8:9 10:17 72:14,14
107:22 121:4,8,9
159:14,22 198:16
199:4

back 19:5 20:25
25:20 40:1 42:19
50:1 67:2 68:13
76:13 85:25 88:10
93:20 102:5 113:4
139:13 148:10
155:11 163:24
176:25 177:16
195:9,16
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70:12,16 162:11
195:4
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base 16:9,11 48:22
72:20
based 30:9,17 32:18
33:8,15 37:23 71:18
73:2,3 83:20,21
104:8 126:1
basically 118:14
basis 27:4 34:6
42:11 119:18 130:9
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154:5 157:16
bcc 154:16,18
becker 3:4 8:16
179:24
began 11:25
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50:1 102:15 127:2
140:9 151:18 171:3
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8:21 124:15 149:12
belief 156:3
believe 11:1,17,24
12:21 13:9 19:10
20:9 23:22 29:14,16
33:24 38:17,18 41:3
41:4 49:7 51:20
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[believe - buys]
52:19 54:16 55:9,15
55:21 56:1 60:1
74:14,14 78:13
79:13 81:4,24,25
82:13,13 85:20,21
105:18 107:11
113:20 116:18
120:23 124:23
129:6 135:18 136:6
146:16 153:13
161:12 164:8,17
165:3,5 173:11
183:12,16,18
187:23 191:14,17
191:17 196:10
believes 28:25
bell 64:6 183:1
benefit 110:8
bergen 70:3,4,5
best 36:20,21,23
77:13 90:22 93:7
103:18 160:16,21
161:18 175:9
bethlehem 70:9
better 21:7 82:9
94:25 124:5 176:2
beyond 186:8
big 27:16 32:2,6
178:23
bit 9:16 46:17 47:19
71:4 76:13 94:17
95:24 103:21 118:2
174:19 177:1,10
191:6
bits 45:2
blank 152:11
board 8:5 182:18
183:6 186:15
bockius 2:17 9:1
bod 183:8
bodies 194:7,8
body 90:13 113:25
book 30:24 60:23
105:5,21 106:14
107:21,21 108:18

108:21 120:8,9,12
180:9,15
books 28:23 59:23
59:24 60:1 136:11
171:10
bookstore 18:24
22:22 23:2,6 30:24
60:24 61:2,23 62:7
62:10,12 85:9,11,13
106:15
bookstores 106:17
180:19
boost 178:23
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bottle 76:17
bottom 138:9 161:1
169:25 170:16
171:12
bought 109:23
box 52:7
boy 61:6
brain 53:8,9
branson 168:10,11
168:24 169:6,9,16
169:20 170:12,14
171:1
branson's 169:14
break 34:12 47:18
68:4 77:17 102:3,9
151:13 196:12,16
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31:25
breaking 15:17
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bridges 3:3 4:3 8:15
8:15 9:6,12 10:16
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18:5 19:7,17 22:7
24:3,10,23 26:16
28:6 29:9 30:19
32:6,21,24 36:4,25
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39:9,16 43:20 44:3
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47:17 48:5 50:15

53:8,20 58:3 61:3
62:25 65:12,22 66:2
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82:6,8 85:14 86:20
89:20 91:10,17
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121:9 122:5,11,16
123:3,23 124:17,22
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128:1,10,24 130:11
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137:17 139:3
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[bylaws - collecting]
bylaws 75:17
c
c 91:4 198:1,1
ca 3:5
calendar 178:9,10
california 2:13 3:4
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96:12
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113:3
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coding 170:17
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collecting 124:11
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[collection - content]
collection 27:9
107:6
collections 107:18
college 69:21 106:16
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columns 180:7
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[content - crr]
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189:15
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crr 1:23 198:16
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[current - different]
current 9:17 11:10
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15:15 21:4,8,11
22:9 29:10,15 43:11
57:1,4 85:20 90:23
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96:12 103:22 108:8
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118:21 124:10
130:25 171:11
173:6,12 177:18
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[different - edition]
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differently 86:9
difficult 75:10
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digital 84:19 166:5
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editorial 69:25
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[exhibit - flows]
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[identifies - inventory]
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[inventory - legal]
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83:21 86:18 91:13
uses 41:23 83:15
84:3 91:7
usually 21:22 22:5
88:22 149:16
utc 64:4 69:1
v
vague 38:9 76:16
144:13 157:2
182:22,24 189:25
vaguely 187:17
value 27:15 29:2
30:2 33:21 34:11,23
80:22
vancouver 160:7,7,8
161:3 163:2
variation 14:14 38:6

variations 83:16
varied 71:11
various 6:23 13:6
14:5 41:11 42:25
43:6 44:11 61:15
136:1 176:1,1 180:6
191:8,12
vary 14:4 118:2
vendor 12:20 23:12
41:12,23 42:12
62:11 122:22
vendors 41:12
ventilation 37:16
73:8 75:19
ventures 125:4
verifies 28:12
verify 112:6
vermont 152:3
version 13:10 18:23
19:12,18 20:14,15
20:19 21:11 26:14
29:10 38:2 42:25,25
43:6,6,11,12 49:7
50:5 53:16,22 57:1
57:2,5 100:1 115:24
116:15,23,24
117:18 133:21
173:7,7,16,17
174:12 175:7,12
176:21 178:1,7,20
versions 11:20,22,23
13:21 15:15,18,22
16:3 19:14 22:8,9
35:21 36:6 43:23
44:4,9,14 54:21
56:7,8 57:7,15
90:19 99:23 115:12
132:10 173:6,10
174:9
vice 123:8
video 8:11 47:23
48:3 68:13 102:11
102:16 151:14,19
196:20,25

videographer 3:11
8:8,24 9:7 47:23
48:2 68:9,13 102:7
102:11,15 151:14
151:18 196:20,24
197:3
videotaped 1:16 8:9
8:9
view 12:4 19:8 20:7
37:18 40:7,8 52:4
78:5 105:1 121:23
156:9 166:9,22
174:3,7 178:5
viewer 40:4
viewing 12:19 20:9
20:10,11,14,16,20
20:24 21:1 23:23
24:4,7 25:7 40:12
41:4 52:6 77:23
78:1,7,12,14 94:21
95:21 96:24 103:8
103:12 105:2 109:4
112:13,14 183:17
183:22 184:3,9
views 12:24 13:1,10
violated 156:10
violation 135:5
140:24 156:8
visibility 143:16
voiced 39:6
volunteer 149:22
vs 1:12 199:4
w
w 40:18,20
want 21:15,16 40:1
44:20 58:24 85:25
91:11,12 97:10
104:21 105:1
107:21 124:4
138:13 150:3
153:22 172:11
184:25
wanted 42:15,22
43:3 44:8,24 77:21
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[wanted - z]
99:2,13 128:3
136:20 163:21
188:13 189:18
195:1
wanting 45:1 187:2
wants 105:6 168:16
warehousing 60:24
washington 2:19
42:1 158:15 159:2,4
watch 148:11,18,22
149:9 182:7
way 13:19 57:11,13
57:16 65:6,8,13,23
66:3 67:4 70:22
85:25 89:24 90:21
91:8 92:15 98:2,19
99:6 102:1 107:20
123:13 131:1 132:9
142:17 162:8
164:10 170:19
171:15 181:8,9
192:2
ways 36:11 103:22
104:4 157:25
we've 40:13 47:18
49:2 68:3 74:4,4,5
80:6 89:4,4 112:14
123:11 150:2
164:23
web 71:18 101:5,7
104:25 105:1
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49:9 50:8,11,14,17
52:5 54:15 69:3
88:15 102:24 103:4
103:5,9,11 106:24
107:1 109:4 111:14
115:6,16 118:20,21
118:22,25 123:15
136:21
went 12:21,21 69:23
95:20 145:9 174:19
west 3:3 8:16
whatsoever 162:14

whoever's 104:13
wide 83:22
widely 44:20
willis 69:15
wisdom 147:12,18
wise 81:18
wish 21:4 22:4
43:17 46:2 166:14
wished 45:19 52:17
95:7 101:3 186:24
wishes 108:17
wishing 166:8
192:21
withdraw 58:22
witness 4:2 9:8 16:6
17:14 18:21 19:10
21:20 24:1,19 26:7
29:7 30:14 31:12
32:20 35:24 36:23
37:11 38:10,17 39:5
43:10 44:2 45:9,18
50:13 58:1 60:9
62:24 65:11,16 66:1
66:6,16 67:22 71:2
75:7 76:22 80:13
81:11 85:6 89:17
91:11 92:8 93:2,16
98:8,23 99:15 101:9
101:17 102:10
105:23,25 107:17
108:15 110:10,19
111:9,12,22 112:5
114:1 116:18
118:19 121:7 122:2
122:9,14,25 126:5
127:23 128:6 130:9
138:22 140:12
141:14,20 142:5
144:15,23 145:5,20
146:5 147:5,15,23
148:6,25 149:14
150:11 153:17
154:25 155:18,25
156:7,12 157:3,8,12
157:21 158:4,8

159:20 160:18,23
161:16 162:2,16
163:18,24 164:17
166:12 167:5 168:4
170:3 171:21 175:5
179:13,17 180:2
182:11 188:18,23
190:1,7 191:8
193:21 197:10
woman 25:3
wondering 139:5
191:4
word 34:23 58:25
132:14,16 163:12
165:23 167:1
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79:19 80:17 81:11
83:7
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139:4 141:14,17,21
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60:25 62:3 126:5
181:13
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69:20,23
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47:20 70:2 95:19
96:2
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186:5 194:7
world 50:22,23
69:14
worried 68:6
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44:25
writer 157:25
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writing 88:12,13
89:2 194:9
written 135:11
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wrong 21:14
wrote 146:14 170:24
x
xpera 182:21 183:3
y
yeah 10:1 27:1,3,5
31:12 33:6 34:13
36:7 51:4 53:17
57:16 64:5,5 81:24
82:6 130:12 135:15
142:20 160:23
163:16 166:7
173:20 174:1
175:15 178:10
179:3 185:19 190:8
195:9
year 13:25 14:15
15:5 22:12 39:20
43:13,13 95:22
116:1,2,3 129:21
130:11,12 172:17
174:18 177:13,18
178:9,9,11,12,14,16
178:21,24,25 179:1
yearly 32:17 58:17
59:9
years 9:16 10:1 11:2
14:24 21:2 24:22
25:9 37:23 40:16
42:17,24 43:5 49:2
58:15 87:14 95:23
114:23 122:3
156:16 158:21
172:21 175:6,7
176:20 178:6,6,17
178:22 179:2
183:17 195:10
yep 131:1
york 187:18,24
188:2,3,11,18
z
z 42:4 165:17

Page 33
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Federal Rules o f Civil Procedure
Rule 30

(e) Review By the Witness; Changes .
(1) Review; Statement of Changes . On request by the
deponent or a party before the deposition is
completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days
after being notified by the officer that the
transcript or recording is available in which :
(A)

to review the transcript or recording; and

(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to
sign a statement listing the changes and the
reasons for making them .
(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer ' s Certificate .
The officer must note in the certificate prescribed
by Rule 30(f) (1)

whether a review was requested

and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent
makes during the 30 - day period .

DISCLAIMER :

THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY .
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1,
2014 .

PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP - TO - DATE INFORMATION .