AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND MATERIALS et al v. PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.

Filing 204

LARGE ADDITIONAL ATTACHMENT(S) to Public Resource's Second Motion for Summary Judgment by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. 202 MOTION for Summary Judgment filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC., 203 SEALED MOTION FOR LEAVE TO FILE DOCUMENT UNDER SEAL filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC. (This document is SEALED and only available to authorized persons.) filed by PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.. (Attachments: # 1 Public Resources Statement of Disputed Facts, # 2 Public Resources Evidentiary Objections, # 3 Public Resources Request for Judicial Notice, # 4 Declaration Carl Malamud, # 5 Declaration Matthew Becker, # 6 Consolidated Index of Exhibits, # 7 Exhibit 1, # 8 Exhibit 2, # 9 Exhibit 3, # 10 Exhibit 4, # 11 Exhibit 5, # 12 Exhibit 6, # 13 Exhibit 7, # 14 Exhibit 8, # 15 Exhibit 9, # 16 Exhibit 10, # 17 Exhibit 11, # 18 Exhibit 12, # 19 Exhibit 13, # 20 Exhibit 14, # 21 Exhibit 15, # 22 Exhibit 16, # 23 Exhibit 17, # 24 Exhibit 18, # 25 Exhibit 19, # 26 Exhibit 20, # 27 Exhibit 21, # 28 Exhibit 22, # 29 Exhibit 23, # 30 Exhibit 24, # 31 Exhibit 25, # 32 Exhibit 26, # 33 Exhibit 27, # 34 Exhibit 28, # 35 Exhibit 29, # 36 Exhibit 30, # 37 Exhibit 31, # 38 Exhibit 32, # 39 Exhibit 33, # 40 Exhibit 34, # 41 Exhibit 35, # 42 Exhibit 36, # 43 Exhibit 37, # 44 Exhibit 38, # 45 Exhibit 39, # 46 Exhibit 40, # 47 Exhibit 41, # 48 Exhibit 42, # 49 Exhibit 43, # 50 Exhibit 44, # 51 Exhibit 45, # 52 Exhibit 46, # 53 Exhibit 47, # 54 Exhibit 48, # 55 Exhibit 49, # 56 Exhibit 50, # 57 Exhibit 51, # 58 Exhibit 52, # 59 Exhibit 53, # 60 Exhibit 54, # 61 Exhibit 55, # 62 Exhibit 56, # 63 Exhibit 57, # 64 Exhibit 58, # 65 Exhibit 59, # 66 Exhibit 60, # 67 Exhibit 61, # 68 Exhibit 62, # 69 Exhibit 63, # 70 Exhibit 64, # 71 Exhibit 65, # 72 Exhibit 66, # 73 Exhibit 67, # 74 Exhibit 68, # 75 Exhibit 69, # 76 Exhibit 70, # 77 Exhibit 71, # 78 Exhibit 72, # 79 Exhibit 73, # 80 Exhibit 74, # 81 Exhibit 75, # 82 Exhibit 76, # 83 Exhibit 77, # 84 Exhibit 78, # 85 Exhibit 79, # 86 Exhibit 80, # 87 Exhibit 81, # 88 Exhibit 82, # 89 Exhibit 83, # 90 Exhibit 84, # 91 Exhibit 85, # 92 Exhibit 86, # 93 Exhibit 87, # 94 Exhibit 88, # 95 Exhibit 89, # 96 Exhibit 90, # 97 Exhibit 91, # 98 Exhibit 92, # 99 Exhibit 93, # 100 Exhibit 94, # 101 Exhibit 95, # 102 Exhibit 96, # 103 Exhibit 97, # 104 Certificate of Service)(Bridges, Andrew)

EXHIBIT 43

1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

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----------------------------------AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR TESTING AND
) Case No.
MATERIALS d/b/a ASTM INTERNATIONAL;) 1:13-cv-01215-EGS
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION
)
ASSOCIATION, INC.; and
)
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING,
)
REFRIGERATING, AND
)
AIR-CONDITIONING ENGINEERS, INC., )
Plaintiffs,
)
vs.
)
PUBLIC.RESOURCE.ORG, INC.,

)

10
11
12

Defendant.
)
-----------------------------------)
AND RELATED COUNTERCLAIMS.
)
-----------------------------------)

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RULE 30(B)(6) VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF AMERICAN
SOCIETY OF HEATING, REFRIGERATING, AND AIR-CONDITIONING
ENGINEERS, INC.

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BY AND THROUGH ITS DESIGNEE,
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STEPHANIE REINICHE
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MONDAY, MARCH 30, 2015
9:10 a.m.
VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
1075 PEACHTREE STREET
SUITE 3625
ATLANTA, GEORGIA
Reported By:
SHARON A. GABRIELLI, CCR B-2002
Job No. 2035289
Page 1
Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

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2

1
2 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
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4
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ASTM:
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6
MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
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BY: J. KEVIN FEE, ESQ.
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1111 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
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Washington, D.C. 20004
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[phone]
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[e-mail]
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14 FOR THE PLAINTIFF ASHRAE:
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KING & SPALDING
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BY: J. BLAKE CUNNINGHAM, ESQ.
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101 Second Street
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Suite 2300
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San Francisco, California 94105
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[phone]
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[e-mail]
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24
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INDEX
EXAMINATION

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Witness Name
Page
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5 STEPHANIE REINICHE
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By Mr. Becker ............................... 10
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By Mr. Cunningham ........................... 223
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EXHIBIT
9
Exhibit
Description
Page
10
Exhibit 1119 Status Report and Proposed Order
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on Outstanding Discovery Requests
12 Exhibit 1120 ASHRAE0002835-02841
13 Exhibit 1121 ASHRAE0002553-2560
14 Exhibit 1122 ASHRAE0002561-2568
15 Exhibit 1123 ASHRAE0002610-2617
16 Exhibit 1124 ASHRAE0002578-2585
17 Exhibit 1125 ASHRAE0002847-2854
18 Exhibit 1126 ASHRAE0002872-2879
19 Exhibit 1127 ASHRAE0002895-2901
20 Exhibit 1128 ASHRAE0013632-13639
21 Exhibit 1129 ASHRAE0002902-2909
22 Exhibit 1130 ASHRAE0016583-16591
23 Exhibit 1131 ASHRAE0005359-5367
24 Exhibit 1132 ASHRAE0002467-2468
25 Exhibit 1133 ASHRAE0002469-2470

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Page 4

Page 2
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2
3 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (CONTINUING):
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5
6 FOR THE DEFENDANT:
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FENWICK & WEST LLP
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BY: MATTHEW BECKER, ESQ.
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555 California Street
10
12th Floor
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San Francisco, California 94104
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[phone]
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[e-mail]
14
15
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
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Carl Malamud, Public.Resource.Org (via telecon)
19
Corynne McSherry, Electronic Frontier Foundation
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--oOo-22
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EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
Exhibit
Description
Page
Exhibit 1134 ASHRAE0022821-22822
Exhibit 1135 ASHRAE0022819
Exhibit 1136 ASHRAE0022823-22824
Exhibit 1137 ASHRAE0022825-22826
Exhibit 1138 ASHRAE0022820
Exhibit 1139 ASHRAE0022814-22816
Exhibit 1140 ASHRAE0022817-22818
Exhibit 1141 ASHRAE0022813
Exhibit 1142 ASHRAE0001618
Exhibit 1143 ASHRAE0001601
Exhibit 1144 ASHRAE0001602-1603
Exhibit 1145 ASHRAE0001606
Exhibit 1146 ASHRAE0001600
Exhibit 1147 ASHRAE0001604
Exhibit 1148 ASHRAE0001608-1609
Exhibit 1149 ASHRAE0001610-1611
Exhibit 1150 ASHRAE0001605
Exhibit 1151 ASHRAE001613-1615
Exhibit 1152 ASHRAE0001616-1617
Exhibit 1153 ASHRAE0001612
Exhibit 1154 ASHRAE0022827
Exhibit 1155 ASHRAE0001598-1599
Exhibit 1156 ASHRAE0026227-26228

Page 3

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Page 5

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866 299-5127

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EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
Exhibit
Description
Page
Exhibit 1157 ASHRAE0026229-26231
Exhibit 1158 ASHRAE0005856-5867
Exhibit 1159 ASHRAE0003496-3510
Exhibit 1160 ASHRAE0025561-25562
Exhibit 1161 ASHRAE0005677-5705
Exhibit 1162 ASHRAE0026233-26234
Exhibit 1163 ASHRAE0024558-24589
Exhibit 1164 ASHRAE0024245-24257
Exhibit 1165 ASHRAE0024235-24242
Exhibit 1166 ASHRAE Standards Errata
Exhibit 1167 Errata Sheet for Reprint GG 8/96
and Earlier Copies of ANSI/ASHRAE
Standard 41.3-1989
Exhibit 1168 ASHRAE0029501-29502
Exhibit 1169 ASHRAE0029503-29504
Exhibit 1170 ASHRAE0029496-29497
Exhibit 1171 ASHRAE0029498-29500
Exhibit 1172 ASHRAE0029505-29507
Exhibit 1173 ASHRAE0029508-29511
Exhibit 1174 ASHRAE0029512-29513
Exhibit 1175 ASHRAE0001590-1591
Exhibit 1176 ASHRAE0001592-1597
Exhibit 1177 ASHRAE0013961-13985

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EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
Exhibit
Description
Page
Exhibit 1201 ASHRAE0029650-29651
202
Exhibit 1203 ASHRAE0024592-24597
206
Exhibit 1202 ASHRAE000024591
206
Exhibit 1204 Email chain - top email from
206
Steven Emmerich to Andrew Persily
dated April 29, 2014
Exhibit 1205 Email chain - top email from
207
Steve Ferguson to Steve Ferguson,
et al., dated April 28, 2008
Exhibit 1206 Email chain - top email from Mark 209
Weber to APersily, et al., dated
June 4, 2008
Exhibit 1207 Email chain - top email from Mark 211
Weber to Rhonda Dickerson dated
March 13, 2009
Exhibit 1208

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ASHRAE0024209-24216

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Exhibit 1209

ASHRAE0027383-27384

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Exhibit 1210

ASHRAE0027817-27818

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--oOo--

Page 6

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EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
Exhibit
Description
Page
Exhibit 1178 ASHRAE0011934-11966
Exhibit 1179 ASHRAE0016488
Exhibit 1180 ASHRAE0002471-2474
Exhibit 1181 ASHRAE0012324-12327
Exhibit 1182 ASHRAE0020220-20227
Exhibit 1183 ASHRAE0012340-12344
Exhibit 1184 ASHRAE0012247-12253
Exhibit 1185 ASHRAE0018975-18980
Exhibit 1186 ASHRAE0027814-27815
Exhibit 1187 ASHRAE0024373
Exhibit 1188 ASHRAE0024374-24378
Exhibit 1189 ASHRAE0027781-27783
Exhibit 1190 ASHRAE0029704
Exhibit 1191 ASHRAE0029659-29661
Exhibit 1192 ASHRAE0029734-29735
Exhibit 1193 ASHRAE0001628-1673
Exhibit 1194 ASHRAE006892-6899
Exhibit 1195 ASHRAE0024267-024268
Exhibit 1196 ASHRAE0024287
Exhibit 1197 ASHRAE0024388
Exhibit 1198 ASHRAE0024393
Exhibit 1199 ASHRAE0024624-24638
Exhibit 1200 ASHRAE0026916

Page 8
1

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record. 09:09

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Please note that the microphones are

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sensitive and may pick up whispering and

09:09

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private conversations.

09:09

09:09

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Please turn off all cell phones or place

09:09

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them away from the microphones, as they can

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interfere with the deposition audio.

09:10

09:10

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Recording will continue until all parties

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agree to go off the record.

09:10
09:10

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My name is Isaac Horner, representing

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Veritext Legal Solutions. Today's date is

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March 30th, 2015, and the time is

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approximately 9:10.

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09:10
09:10
09:10

09:10

This deposition is being held at

09:10

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Veritext Legal Solutions, located at 1075

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Peachtree Street, Northeast, Atlanta,

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Georgia, and is being taken by counsel for

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the defendants.

09:10
09:10
09:10

09:10

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The caption of this case is American

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Society for Testing and Materials, et al., v.

09:10

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Public.Resource.Org, Incorporated.

09:10

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This case is being held in the United

09:10

09:10

23

States District Court for the District of

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Columbia, Case Number 1:13-CV-01215-EGS.

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The name of the witness is Stephanie

Page 7

09:10
09:10

09:10
Page 9

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Veritext Legal Solutions
866 299-5127

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Reiniche.

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09:11

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At this time, the attorneys present in

09:12

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the room and everyone attending remotely will

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identify themselves and the parties they

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represent, after which our court reporter,

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Sharon Gabrielli, representing Veritext Legal

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Solutions, will swear in the witness and we

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can proceed.

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09:13

3

A

09:16

4

Q

09:19

5

09:11

MR. BECKER: This is Matthew Becker of

09:16

McSherry from Electronic Frontier Foundation,

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and we're representing the defendant,

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Public.Resource.Org. And also listening by

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telephone is Carl Malamud.

Thermal Design.

09:18
09:18

A

Defendant in that case.

Q

And what was the -- what was the nature of

09:11

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09:16

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Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning

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Engineers.

It had to do with our Standard 90.1 and

09:17
09:14

14 business. That's the short story.
09:12

the American Society of Heating,

A

09:14

09:17

13 prevented Thermal Design from being able to conduct

09:18

MR. CUNNINGHAM: This is Blake

09:10

12 whether or not the -- the information in a table

09:14

17

09:11

9 the restraint of trade claim against ASHRAE in that
10 case?

Cunningham of King & Spalding, representing

09:13

09:16

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Q

09:19

09:10

09:12

Why did they think that the information in a 09:14

16 table would prevent them from being able to conduct
17 business?
18

09:19

A

09:17

09:19

They -- they were saying that -- it

09:13

19 basically -- their product was being excluded from the 09:18

MR. FEE: Kevin Fee on behalf of ASTM

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09:17

And was ASHRAE the plaintiff or the defendant 09:16

09:19

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International.

Thermal Design.

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09:12

09:16

7

09:13

Fenwick & West. And with me is Corynne

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And who was the party that was opposing

6 in that case?

09:13

10

15

Q

2 ASHRAE in that case?

09:10

09:14

20 marketplace, and so they were losing, they claimed,

09:13

21 millions of dollars in revenue because of what -- of

STEPHANIE REINICHE,

22 the numbers that were in the table.

09:16

09:19

23 having been first duly sworn, was deposed and testified 09:16

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24 as follows:

24 the table that they claimed excluded them from the

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09:16
EXAMINATION

Q

09:16

And how was it exactly that the numbers in

25 marketplace?

09:16

09:11
09:17

09:10

Page 10
1 BY MR. BECKER:
2

Q

Page 12
1

09:19

Hi, Ms. Reiniche. My name is Matthew Becker 09:12

A

Since it's technical, I can only kind of give 09:12

2 you a summary of it, since I'm not technical in nature. 09:15

3 of Fenwick & West, and I'm representing the defendant

09:11

3 It had to do with U factors and R factors, and their -- 09:18

4 Public.Resource.Org. Have you ever taken -- have you

09:16

4 they were claiming that it gave an unfair advantage to 09:14

5 ever been deposed before?

5 other competitors in the marketplace, because they

09:10

6 could say theirs met the U factors and R factors in

6

A

Yes.

7

Q

Okay. And when was that?

09:11

8

A

There's been two times. One was over ten

09:12

9 years ago, and the other one was, I think it's been

09:11

11

Q

And what were those -- were you deposed in

A

Yes.

14

Q

Okay. And what kind of matters were those

A

Q

And what was the reason that they had you

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MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: I was testifying -- gosh,

09:10

The first one was a wills and trust issue.

09:11

17 And the second one was a lawsuit that ASHRAE was

09:17

testified about. It was a limited capacity
as to some process questions.
Q

09:18
09:11

it's been so long. I can't remember what I

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09:17

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09:16

17

09:13
09:15
09:19

(BY MR. BECKER) Okay. Thank you.
So you -- it sounds like you have previous

18 involved in, so it was my capacity of my job at ASHRAE. 09:13

18 experience being deposed. We'll review the rules

19

19 anyway just so that you're aware of them.

Q

And that was the lawsuit that was two years

20 ago?

20

09:10

A

Yes.

22

Q

Okay. And what was the -- what was that

23 ASHRAE lawsuit about?
A

09:11
09:12

09:14

So as you know, in a deposition, I'll be the 09:11
09:14

22 providing answers on the record. And those answers -- 09:17
23 do you understand that the answers that you are giving 09:19

09:16

24 are being provided under oath, like in a court of law? 09:12

It was restraint of trade. It was against -- 09:17

25 it involved Thermal Design.

09:10
09:11
09:18

21 one who will be asking questions, and you'll be

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09:18

09:13

09:16

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09:12

09:16

09:18

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09:15

15 that you were deposed in?

8 were erroneous.
10 appear for a deposition in that case?

09:16

12 your personal capacity?

09:10

7 that table, and they claimed those -- those numbers

09:11

10 about two years now.

09:16

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09:13

A

Yes.

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Veritext Legal Solutions
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Q

Okay. And you understand that the court

09:18

2 reporter is taking down everything that you say?
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A

Yes.

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Q

09:10

09:12

And for that reason, we need audible

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5 responses, which means no nods or gestures?
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A

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Q

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Yes.
Thank you.

09:16

09:13
09:13

So if at any point you don't understand a

09:14

9 question, will you please let me know, and then I can
10 try to rephrase the question?
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A

Yes.

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Q

Thank you.

13

09:15

09:18
09:10
09:11

And if you come to realize that one of your

09:14

14 answers isn't completely correct or if you have

09:18

15 information to add to it, will you please tell me that 09:11
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09:13

17 correct?

09:16

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A

Yes.

09:17

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Q

And that can come after breaks and so forth. 09:18

20 So if you go on a break and you recall that there was

09:10

21 something else you wanted to add, you can please let me 09:13
22 know.

09:15

23

A

Yes.

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Q

And you understand that after the transcript 09:10

09:18

25 of the deposition is prepared, that you'll have a

09:12

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A
Q

No.
09:18
Thank you.
09:18
Ms. Reiniche, could you tell me about your 09:18
educational background?
09:18
A I have a bachelor's degree from Eastern
09:18
Michigan University, and a juris doctor degree from 09:18
DePaul University College of Law.
09:18
Q And what was the bachelor's in?
09:18
A Political science.
09:18
Q Okay. And what year was that?
09:18
A '94.
09:18
Q And when did you graduate with a JD?
09:18
A 1998.
09:19
Q And do you have any experience with legal 09:19
practice?
09:19
A I did wills and trusts and family law and 09:19
bankruptcy.
09:19
Q And how long was that for?
09:19
A Four years.
09:19
Q Four years.
09:19
And did you practice with a firm?
09:19
A Yeah, two -- it was one-person firm, me and 09:19
one other person.
09:19
Q Okay. And what was the name of that law
09:19
firm?
09:19

Page 14

2

A

Yes.

3

Q

09:16

09:10

And that if you make any changes, I'll be

09:11

6

Q

7

Yes.
Thank you.

09:15

8 preventing you from giving your best testimony today,
9 such as illness or medication?
No.

11

Q

Ms. Reiniche, could you please state your

09:19

Stephanie Church Reiniche.

14

Q

And have you gone by any previous names?

15

A

My maiden name was Jenkins.

16

Q

Was that Stephanie Church Jenkins?

17

A

Yes.

18

Q

And when did you change your name?

19

A

I got married in June of 1994.

20

Q

Yes.

Q

And Kathleen Krumm, was she the -- the other 09:19

09:19
09:19

7

A

Yes, she owned -- she owned the firm.

09:19

8

Q

And do you have any other graduate or

09:19

09:19

A

No.

11

Q

And let's see, so you said you -- from -- it 09:19

13

09:15
09:17

09:10
09:13

09:19

A

Yes. I didn't start there until 1999, I

14 think -- or 19 -- sorry -- '89. Right? No, '90 -Q

09:16

18 started at the firm?

09:20

09:10
09:14

19

A

No.

Q

And you said you were at the firm for four

21 years; is that correct?

09:20

A

Yes.

Q

Okay. So that was until 2003, was that?

24

A

Correct.

25
And do you have any other business addresses? 09:14
Page 15

Q

And what did you do in 2003?

09:11

09:17

09:20

09:20

23

09:16

09:20

09:20

20

09:18

1791 Tullie Circle, Northeast, Atlanta,

24 Georgia, 30329.

09:20

Okay. And did you do anything between the

22

22 address?

09:20

15 '99, sorry. A year after I graduated law school.
16

09:20

09:20

17 year that you graduated from law school and when you

09:16

And could you please state your business

Q

09:19

A

12 was four years that you were working at that firm?

09:12

A

25

3 Kathleen Krumm?

9 technical degrees?

09:14

13

A

09:19

10

A

23

09:19

09:12

10

Okay. Thank you.

09:19

And was Kathleen -- I'm sorry, is that

6 person you worked with?

09:15

Ms. Reiniche, is there anything that would be 09:16

21

Kathleen Krumm & Associates.

Q

4

09:13

12 full name for the record?

A

5

4 able to comment on those changes?
A

1
2

1 chance to review it and make changes to it, right?

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09:20
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A

I moved from Michigan to Georgia.

2

Q

And what was your first job that you took

09:21

ASHRAE.

Q

09:25

6 ASHRAE?

09:26

09:28

7

A

No.

09:29

8

Q

Okay. And when was it that you started

9 working at ASHRAE?

09:29

09:21

10

A

November 2003.

09:23

11

Q

Okay. How was it that you came to start

12 working at ASHRAE?
13

A

A

Yes.

Q

And what is the title that you were promoted 09:21

A

Senior manager of standards.

Q

And is that the title that you hold today?

8

A

Yes.

9

Okay. Did you move to Georgia to work at

And so were you promoted once again in 2014? 09:27

6

A

5

That title, till 2014.

Q

4

4

A

2
3

09:23

1

7

3 once you moved to Georgia?

09:29

Q

Okay. And do you have any other roles at

5 to?

09:21
09:20
09:23
09:24
09:21

09:24
09:24

10 ASHRAE, other than senior manager of standards?
09:23

09:24

A

No.

12

09:24

I applied online. I -- I saw a job posting, 09:27

11

09:29

Q

Have you served on any of the committees in

13 ASHRAE?

09:29

09:21

14 at that time it was for a procedures administrator, and 09:21

14

A

No.

15 I submitted a résumé.

15

Q

Have you -- what involvement in the design of 09:24

16

Q

09:23

Had you ever heard of ASHRAE before that

17 point?

09:21

17

09:23

No.

Q

Were you familiar with the air-conditioning, 09:24

20 heating and cooling industry prior to that point?

09:26

21

A

No.

22

Q

What was it that made you qualified for the

09:21

23 job at ASHRAE?

09:22

09:27

09:29
And what -- how long were you a procedures

5

A

I want to say until December 2004.

6

Q

And were you promoted at that time?

7

A

Yes.

8

Q

And what was -- what position were you

09:27
09:24

09:25

Standards administrator.

11

Q

09:26

20

A

It involves a lot of things. It involves

09:27
09:22

22 overseeing the documentation for public reviews, could 09:27
24 drafts, editing and reviewing those, working with the

1

Q

09:20

09:27
Page 20

And when you say you oversee the

09:25

3 change proposals and publication drafts, what does that 09:23
4 entail?
5

A

09:26
It can entail -- well, making sure that the

09:28

6 document for membership, that the documentation is all 09:22

And how long did you hold the title of

09:26

A

I think it was about three years.

14

Q

And were you promoted after three years?

15

A

Yes.

16

Q

And what title were you promoted to?

17

A

Assistant manager of standards

09:29
09:23

10 committees to help them make sure their committee is

09:22

13

8 filled out, everything is properly signed. And it
9 could involve talking with the chairs of project

09:20

12 standards administrator for?

And what does that involve?

7 complete, meaning every -- all the, you know, parts are 09:25
09:26

09:29

A

18 administration.

09:24

09:20

10

09:26

Q

2 documentation for membership and for public reviews and 09:29

4 administrator at ASHRAE for?

9 promoted to?

09:23

19

25 appeals.
09:23
Page 18

1 background and ability to -- to write and things like
Q

I oversee the development of all the

23 be change proposals, could be minutes, the publication 09:24

09:26

25 was about procedures and process, and so just legal

3

A

21 reviewing all the documentation for membership,

I suppose because it was -- at that time, it 09:20

2 that.

09:21

18 standards at ASHRAE.

A

19

A

16 standards have you played?

09:23

18

24

09:23

11 balanced.
12

09:24

Q

09:24

What do you mean by making sure the project

13 committees are balanced?
09:21

09:23

14

A

09:29
09:27

09:20

Under our ANSI rules, our committees have to 09:22

15 be balanced, meaning for nonsafety standards, no more
09:24
09:27

09:28

16 than 50 percent of the people can be in any one

09:25

09:29

17 interest category; and for safety standards, no more

09:23

18 than one-third in each interest category.

09:26
09:22

19

Q

And how long did you hold that position for? 09:27

19

Q

And what is an interest category?

20

A

A year or two.

20

A

It's -- it describes the -- the role a person 09:25

21

Q

And were you promoted again after that point? 09:26

21 plays typically in their job or their duties that

22

A

Yes.

22 they're doing, and that shows their bias for that

23

Q

And what title were you promoted to?

24

A

Manager of standards.

25

Q

And how long did you hold that position for? 09:29
25 categories?
Page 19

09:20
09:29
09:20
09:22

23 particular standard that's being developed.
24

Q

09:22
09:25
09:20

Could you list for me the interest

09:27

09:29
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A

For which standard?

2

Q

So the interest categories are different for 09:23

09:21

1

A

For which part of the process? After

2 membership?

09:29

09:22

3 particular standards?

09:25

3

Q

Let's talk about membership applications.

09:23

4

A

They can be, yes.

09:26

4

A

So for membership applications, there is an

09:27

5

Q

Okay. Do you know the -- off the top of your 09:27

6 head the interest categories for the 90.1 standards?
7

A

9

Q

Okay.

10

A

09:28

There's compliance, industry, utility,

Q

09:24
09:27

8 categorized. And then they would have -- then there is 09:33

09:22

11 general, and I think user.

6 project committee they're applying for, their name,
7 what interest category they believe they should be

I can list some of them, but I would have to 09:26

8 look at a roster to verify they're all correct.

12

09:20

5 application form that would list the -- you know, what 09:20

9 a signature at the bottom and their voting status, what 09:35
09:22

10 they would like to be on that committee.

09:21

11

And what does -- what are the -- those

09:39

There's a bias/conflict of interest form,

09:32

09:27

12 which gives background on where they've worked for the 09:36

13 categories? Excuse me, let me rephrase.

09:25

13 last five years, other organizations that they've been 09:30

14

09:29

14 involved with, who pays their way to participate, and

09:22

15 any public statements they would have made in regards

What -- what kind of a person would a --

15 would fall into the compliance category?
16

A

I would need to look at the application that 09:26

16 to the particular standard they're applying for, and

17 shows the definition to give you an exact person, the

09:28

17 that, too, is signed.

18 exact definition; but for example, somebody that's

09:22

18

19 involved in codes would be a compliance person.
20

Q

09:26

When you say someone who's involved in codes, 09:20

21 like what -- what kind of role do you mean by that?

09:24

09:27

09:34
09:38

09:31

09:34

And then there's a biographical record that

09:36

19 is done through the ASHRAE website which gives their

09:38

20 background, like where they -- you know, their degrees 09:33
21 and things like that, whether -- other committees

22

A

A code official.

23

Q

A code --

24

A

A building code person; that type of person. 09:20

24

25

Q

Would that be something like a regulator?

25 these fields are filled out?

09:38

22 they've been involved in within ASHRAE, awards; things 09:31

09:29

23 like that.
09:23

Q

09:36

Are you the person who makes sure that all of 09:36
09:39

Page 22

Page 24
1

1

A

Could be.

2

Q

Okay. So that would -- that would encompass 09:27

09:26

A

I have a staff person that does that, but

09:31

2 then they are reviewed by another committee. And when 09:32

3 somebody in a government position, then, would be under 09:21

3 there's a question, then I'm the one that helps work

4 compliance?

4 with that.

5

09:27

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

6

09:28

8

would be listed. It depends on where they

9

work, what they do. Without looking at an

11

Q

A

It's varied over the years.

8

Q

What is the name of the person today?

9

A

Katrina Shingles.

10

Q

And is there -- does Katrina Shingles have a 09:36

09:20

09:25

Depending on the -- it depends on what the

09:29

16 definition is. I really probably should look at the
And where would the definitions be found?

19

A

The definitions would be as part of the

09:25

The membership application?

22

A

Yes, sir.

23

Q

You also said that one of your jobs is to

13

Q

Is there a specific position for the person

09:32
09:38

15

A
Q

It's been a secretary or an administrative

09:37

09:30

And you said there's also a committee that

18 looks over that?
A

09:32

09:37

09:39

Yes. There's a staff liaison, and then there 09:30

20 is -- in addition to that, and then there is --

09:34

21 depending -- the process has changed slightly. There

09:21

22 could be up to two oversight committees.

09:22

23

09:21

24 make sure that documentation is complete. What does
25 that involve?

She's a secretary.

19

09:28

09:20

Q

09:31

A

17

09:24

Q

21

09:37

09:30

12

16 assistant.

09:21

18

20 application.

09:35

14 who has always checked the -- the forms?

09:28

17 definitions to tell you for sure.

09:32

11 specific position?

09:21

(BY MR. BECKER) Okay. What other categories 09:24

14 compliance?
A

7

09:26

13 could a government official go under, other than
15

6 checks these forms?

09:22

they would go under compliance.

12

And what is the name of the staff person who 09:30

09:20

the roster to see how a government employee

individual, I can't tell you for sure that

Q

09:29

THE WITNESS: I would have to look at

7

10

5

09:35

09:39

09:24

And you said that the process has changed.

24 When did the process change?
25

09:27

Q
A

This year.

Page 23

09:37

09:30
09:33

09:37
09:30
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Q

And how did it change?

2

A

There is -- the only extra -- there's only

1

09:39

Q

When reviewing the membership applications,

3 oversight for the chair of a policy-level committee at 09:35

3 membership?

4 a higher body. So there's only two approving --

4

09:30

A

Do you mean by me or do you mean by the chair 09:38

5 of the project committee -- the chair of the project

6 the membership.

6 committee or the approving bodies?

Q

09:37

So it used to be that all the membership

9 sorry, I think I'm confused. Could you please
11

A

Sure.

09:38

12

Q

-- how that -- how that works?

13

I don't reject anyone. I send it back if

A

There's two types of committees: Policy

11 limbo.
12

09:39

09:36
09:39
09:33

Q

09:39

09:32
And when you say you send it back, are you

13 sending it back to the person who had submitted the

09:33

15 originally it was the standards project liaison

14 application?

17 approve the chair and only SPLS would approve the

09:32
09:37

A

Yes.

16

Q

And does anyone else who reviews membership

09:37

17 applications act in any manner that's different than

09:32

09:34

18 what you described your behavior was as to incomplete

09:33

And then for policy-level committees, both

19 applications?

09:34

20 SPLS and standards committee would approve membership

09:31 20

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

09:33

21

22 standards -- SPLS and the standards committee approves 09:33

22

them because the forms aren't complete?

23 the chair.

23

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Yes.

24

A

If the forms are not complete, then yes.

25

Q

So -- so who is it who would reject them if

09:34

What's the difference between nonpolicy-level 09:33

25 committees and policy-level committees?

09:38

09:38

09:32

09:36

21 and the chair, but now SPLS approves the members and

Q

09:34

09:36

15

09:38

16 subcommittee, or SPLS, and standards committee would

24

09:31

09:30

14 level and nonpolicy level. For nonpolicy level,

19

By any of them?

A

10 completing it. If they don't, it just sits there in

09:38

18 membership.

Q

8

9 it's incomplete and make it -- make them finish

09:36

10 explain --

09:32
09:34

7

09:38

8 would have -- would approve these forms and now -- I'm 09:30

09:31

09:38

5 there's two approving bodies for a chair instead of all 09:34
7

09:38

2 has -- has anyone ever been rejected by ASHRAE for

09:31

THE WITNESS: Do you mean do they reject

09:35

09:37
09:30
09:31
09:35

Page 26
1

A

Page 28

09:30

1 the forms were not complete?

09:33

2

So the easiest way to describe it is policy

2 level requires more oversight. Typically, it's

A

09:37

Myself, another staff person that's reviewing 09:30

3 something that may be more controversial topics or

09:36

3 it, the project committee chair, the members of SPLS

4 somebody has, you know, said this is going to receive

09:34

4 when we're reviewing the membership. It usually

5 thousands of comments when it goes out for public

09:38

5 doesn't get past them, but if it did, then standards

6 review. So there is higher oversight in approving

09:30

6 would send it back.

09:33

09:36

7 documents when it comes from a policy, where nonpolicy 09:34

7

8 wouldn't be that way.

8 are you referring to standards as a department within

9

Q

09:37

How is it that ASHRAE predicts that -- that

09:34

10 the topic is going to be controversial, and therefore

09:33

11 should go under the policy, as opposed to nonpolicy?
12

A

Sometimes it's just a feeling. It's --

09:37

Q

When you say "standards would send it back," 09:34

9 ASHRAE?

13 there's a form when someone proposes a new project,

09:34

09:35

09:38

10

A

Sorry, standards committee.

09:39

11

Q

Are you aware of any incomplete membership

12 applications ever making it through the process and

09:30

09:33
09:30

13 being approved?

09:32
09:34

09:36

14

A

No.

15 one of the questions that's on the form that, you know, 09:32

15

Q

When you described Standard 90.1 as being

16 how controversial is this topic, and that type of

16 policy level and -- and also describing policy level as 09:30

14 either a person or a technical committee, and that's

17 thing.
18

Q

09:30
09:35

09:37
09:34

17 requiring more oversight because it's controversial,

09:38
Could you give me a couple examples of what

09:30

09:37

18 what is it that makes Standard 90.1 controversial?

09:39

19 would go to the policy committee?

09:34

19

20

09:37

20 it might be a policy level. I don't know that 90.1 is 09:35

A

Sure. Sure. For example, 90.1 is a

21 policy-level standard. 189.1, which is our green

A

I don't know that -- that's just one reason

09:33

21 necessarily controversial. It's, in part, because it's 09:30

09:31

22 building version of 90.1, is a policy level. Nonpolicy 09:37

22 referenced in federal law. And usually as we're trying 09:34

23 level are typically things like a method of test

23 to make it more energy efficient, there are some areas 09:40

09:32

24 standard. Most people don't comment. It's not a big
25 controversy with method of test.

09:35

09:31
Page 27

24 that it covers that generate a lot of comments, because 09:45
25 it might be an area not covered in the standard before. 09:49
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Q

And what's special about it being referenced 09:43

2 in federal law?
3

A

09:47

It is -- let's see if I get this right --

1

A

International Energy -- I'm not positive. I 09:44

2 just speak in acronyms, so I can't remember. I have to 09:49

09:48

3 look it up, to be honest. But it's through

4 it's referenced in the EPAct, so it's the minimum

09:40

4 International Code Council. It's their energy

5 energy code for commercial buildings.

09:45

5 efficiency code.

6

Q

I'm sorry, could you spell that, EPAct?

09:48

6

7

A

E-P-A-C-T. It's the Energy Policy Act.

09:43

7 known as ICC?

8

Q

And what does the Energy Policy Act do?

9

A

That's the federal law for -- it's the

09:47

11 to 90.1. So 90.1 is the minimum. That's the code in

09:46
09:40

The International Code Council, are they

09:46

09:48

8

A

Yes.

09:40

Q

What's the -- is there any relationship of

09:44

10 the IECC to ASHRAE's Standard 90.1?

09:47

Q

The -- I'm sorry, the minimum for what?

14

A

Commercial buildings.

15

Q

Is that the minimum level of energy

09:40

A

90.1 is a compliance option to the IECC.

Q

What does that mean?

13

09:48

11
12

09:47

13

16 efficiency?

Q

09:47

09:42

9

09:41

10 minimum efficiency for commercial codes as it relates
12 EPAct.

09:42

09:43

A

It means you can choose -- if you adopt that 09:44

09:42

14 as your code and you adopt it in its entirety and

09:42

09:49

15 then -- and 90.1 is a reference as a compliance option 09:43

09:44

16 at the -- whatever level you're -- design your code -- 09:49

17

A

Yes.

09:45

18

Q

So if I understand you correctly, ASHRAE

17 wherever that code is adopted, if they -- if the
09:40

09:43

18 builder wants to build according to what's in 90.1,

09:46

19 Standard 90.1 is referenced in the EPAct as the minimum 09:44

19 they have that option or they can build according to

20 standard for energy efficiency for commercial

20 the IECC, and then that's their choice.

09:44

09:49

09:42

21 buildings?

09:47

21

22

A

09:48

22 comply with ASHRAE Standard 90.1 and that would be

23

Q

Correct.

So who is it who has to follow the EPAct?

24
25

09:44

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

09:40

THE WITNESS: To the best of my

Q

Does the IECC say within it that someone can 09:41

23 sufficient?

09:40

24

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

25

09:44

09:47

THE WITNESS: It -- there is a reference

09:41
09:43

Page 30
knowledge, it's the -- the requirement is all

2
3

so many years to the latest version of

5

90.1.

6

Q

IECC, yes.

3

Q

it or deem to comply by another method every

4

as -- yeah, as a compliance option to the

2

09:43

states are supposed to become compliant with

1

09:48

1

09:45

09:44

09:49

(BY MR. BECKER) So compliance option, then, 09:40

4 means an alternative?

09:49

09:42

5

09:41

(BY MR. BECKER) When you say that all states 09:45

7 must become compliant, does that mean that the states
8 have to adopt this into their regulations or does it

09:47

A

Correct.

09:44

6

Q

And is -- does that mean that ASHRAE's

9

09:40

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: I would have to review.

10

09:49

09:45

7 Standard 90.1 is more rigorous than the IECC?
8

09:40

9 mean that these states have to build their buildings to 09:45
10 comply with the EPAct?

Page 32

09:41
09:41

It depends on what version. Off the top of

11

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

09:41

11

my head, I -- I don't know.

12

THE WITNESS: It means they're supposed

09:43

12

Q

09:42

09:44

(BY MR. BECKER) Taking a step back,

09:40

13

to adopt a code that is equivalent to the

09:45

13 Ms. Reiniche, who do you report to at ASHRAE?

14

current version of 90.1 within two -- I

09:48

14

A

Claire Ramspeck.

15

believe it's within two years of each year,

09:41

15

Q

And what is Ms. Ramspeck's position?

16

or there is some other rules that they have

09:45

16

A

Director of technology.

17

to follow if they don't deem to comply.

09:48

17

Q

And do you report to anybody else?

09:48

18

It does not have to be 90.1. It could

18

A

I suppose you could say Jeff Littleton.

09:44

19

Q

And what is Mr. Littleton's position?

09:47

20

A

Executive vice president.

21

Q

And is there anybody else that you report to? 09:40

22

A

No.

23

Q

And is there anyone who reports to you?

24

A

Yes.

25
09:40
Page 31

Q

And who are those people?

19

be another version of a different code.

20

So...

21

Q

09:42

09:47

(BY MR. BECKER) What other codes would --

22 would suffice to -- to satisfy the EPAct?
23

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

24

THE WITNESS: The IECC.

25

Q

09:44

(BY MR. BECKER) What is the IECC?

09:45

09:40
09:44
09:47

09:41

09:44
09:48

09:43

09:40
09:42
09:43

09:46
09:47
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A

Mark -- Mark Weber, Carmen Manning, Nicole

2 Jones, Angela McFarlin, Katrina Shingles, Steve

09:41

09:40

3 Ferguson, Beverly Fulks, Tanishe Meyers-Lisle, Susan
4 LeBlanc, and Bert Etheridge.

09:43

09:41

Q

And what is Mr. Weber's position?

09:42

6

A

He is the manager of standards American.

7

Q

Does that mean he's in charge of the American 09:41

9

A

09:44

Yes, but there's some that are assigned to

11

Q

13

A

09:46
09:41

09:44
09:40

14

09:58

16 for each new version every three years. He does the
17 minutes.

18 range of standards, with the exception of some other

09:43

18

A

09:55

15 publication drafts in the final roll-ups of the 90.1

09:45

09:46

Q

20

A

09:53

09:57

Are you aware of any other work that

09:53

19 Mr. Ferguson does as the staff liaison for 90.1?

He does -- he's the main point of contact for 09:47

09:56
09:58

09:53

He reviews all of the public -- final

So does Mark Weber provide staff support to

20

09:57

11 when they make one change to a section and then they
13 there's not conflicts.

09:47

09:44

19 group of standards?

09:52

He processes the letter ballots for approval 09:55

12 haven't made a similar change to another section so

15 schedule that one person can provide higher levels of
Q

7 subcommittee meetings.

10 they're written consistently. He points out conflicts 09:52

09:43

14 standards, and we divide them up because of the

17

09:59

9 of all drafts. He reviews the drafts to make sure

09:48

We provide staff support for some of the

16 support.

09:52

6 full project committee meetings, some of the
8

And why would some of them be assigned to

12 other people?

3 come up with a balance committee, looking at terms, you 09:54
5 people in and out per our rules. He attends all the

09:46

10 other people; but the majority of them, yes.

2 Katrina, works with the project committee chair to help 09:58
4 know, helping making sure they, you know, get -- rotate 09:59

5

8 ASHRAE standards?

1 do a double review of the membership items reviewed by 09:53

09:55

That's -- that's pretty much the general

09:51

21 the majority of the standards. There's some that he is 09:42

21 stuff that I can think of. He has other duties besides 09:54

22 specifically the staff liaison to, and then there's

22 90.1.

09:47

23 several others that are assigned to other managers in
24 the department.
25

Q

09:40

23

Q

09:57
Does Mr. Ferguson draft any of the text for

24 90.1?

09:43

Okay. And why is it that there are others

25

09:44

A

09:58

09:53
He reviews the drafts and points out

09:54

Page 34

Page 36

1 that are assigned to other managers in the department? 09:47

1 conflicts.

2

2

A

We just -- we just split them up because

09:41

Q

3 of staff loads. One person can't support them based on 09:44

3 90.1?

4 their meeting schedules; one person can't do all of

4

5 them. Some of them, it's based on their prior
6 expertise.
7

Q

09:40

8 are not assigned to Mark Weber that are American

09:41

Yes.

11

Q

And which standards are those?

12

A

90.1, 90.2, 90.4, 189.1, 15, 34.

13

Q

And who is Standard 90.1 assigned to?

14

A

Steve Ferguson.

15

Q

And you say that Steve Ferguson reports to

09:45

He would edit it, send it back. If it's a

09:50
09:56
09:59

14 consultation with a subcommittee chair can say that's
09:50

09:54

15 correct and -- and then move it forward in whatever

09:58

16 step in the process it's in.

09:53

17

Yes.

Q

And what is Steve Ferguson's position?

09:54

19

A

Manager of standards for codes.

20

Q

And he's also the staff liaison for 90.1, you 09:56

Q

09:50

When you say he edits it and sends it back,

18 does that mean that he actually changes the text, or

09:55

20 conflict or something like that and leaves it to the
21 committee to make the change?

09:51

22

22

A

Yes.

23

Q

Okay. What does Mr. Ferguson do as staff

09:51
09:54

19 does this mean that he sends a comment that there is a 09:56

09:58

09:51
09:54

A

09:50

09:52

If it's -- it depends. If it's a conflict

09:54

23 and he understands -- he has an engineering degree, so 09:57
24 if he understands how to change it, he can propose a -- 09:51

09:57

A lot of things. He'll -- he does -- he'll

A

09:56

09:58

13 editorial, then the chair or a subcommittee -- or in

09:59

A

A

And what would he do if they had written

12 back to the committee for a new vote. If it's

09:53

18

25

Q

09:53

11 substantive change to fix it, then it would have to go 09:53

09:46
09:49

17

24 liaison for 90.1?

8
10

A

09:52

09:50

7 something in the incorrect format.
9 something in an incorrect format?

09:45

10

21 were saying?

No. He may comment when they're discussing

6 but he does not necessarily, unless they wrote

09:47

16 you as well?

09:57

09:51

5 proposed text changes to make them aware of something, 09:56

09:43

And do you know what standards they are that 09:49

9 standards?

A

09:57

But he doesn't contribute text directly to

25 he may propose the wording change. If it's not

09:59
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1 something he understands and it's a conflict, then
3

Q

09:53

And is there any record of the wording

A

7 via email.
8

Q

09:54

If you wanted to go back and find any

A

A

09:57

6 of approximately -- I think it's 15 members.

09:58

Q

And are they elected or are they appointed?

A

The standards committee members are elected

09:55
09:50

9 by the board of directors, and then the subcommittee

09:55

13

Q

09:50

09:53
09:50

So when you say that the assignments are done 09:51

14 by the incoming chair and a vice chair along with

09:59

And how would that -- would that change be

16 reflected in the minutes in -- in any way?
17

09:50

12 depends. It's a rotating four-year term.

09:55

13 something recorded in the minutes, so he would have
Q

That is a subcommittee of standards committee 09:54

11 chair, along with myself every year. So it just

09:52

12 have proposed them in the minutes. That's not

15

And who is -- who composes SPLS?

A

10 assignments are done by the incoming chair and vice

09:51

I'd have to look in his email. He wouldn't

14 sent it via email.

Q

8

09:51

9 proposed changes that Mr. Ferguson had made, how would 09:57
11

09:53

09:58

7

09:58

10 you go about doing that?

There is a single SPLS for ASHRAE. They

5

09:52

6 back, it -- to the committee, it would have been sent

There's -- is there a single SPLS for ASHRAE? 09:50

A

4

09:56

There's probably -- if he sent something

Q

2

3 review all the standards.

09:53

4 changes that Mr. Ferguson has proposed?
5

1

09:50

2 he'll comment and ask the committee for direction.

09:52

16 term, the -- are you saying that these appointments are 09:53

09:54

Not -- not unless it was -- if he sent a

17 made for a subset of the 15 people every -- every year? 09:50

09:58

18 change back, this assumes that the committee has

09:56

15 yourself every year and that it's a rotating four-year 09:51

09:54

18

A

No. It's -- standards committee has 26

09:54

19 already approved the proposed change. And if there was 09:57

19 members, and then there's multiple subcommittees.

09:57

20 an issue and he sent it back, then if -- if a change

20 Standards committee, about one-third rolls off every

09:51

09:59

21 had to be made that was substantive, there would be

09:54

21 four years. So we don't have a new standards committee 09:53

22 another -- there would be a letter ballot. So then it 09:57

22 every four years. So there's some consistency. So

23 would be reflected in a letter ballot. If it's

23 there might be just a couple people that were on SPLS

24 editorial, the chair would accept it.
25

Q

09:51

A

24 one year that will roll off, and so we're adding some

09:54

25 new or moving some others into SPLS.
Who makes the determination for a substantive 09:59
Page 38

1 change versus an editorial change?
2

09:57

1

09:53

If staff -- the difference between a

3 substantive and an editorial change is a substantive

Q

09:59
Page 40

What are some of the other subcommittees for 09:55

2 a standards -- standards committee?

09:57
09:50

4 change changes the requirements of the standard. So

09:53

3

A

09:50
09:55

09:51

Then there's the standards reaffirmation

09:53

4 subcommittee. There's the code interaction

09:51

5 changing a "should" to a "shall" would be a substantive 09:58

5 subcommittee. There's the policy, procedures, and

6 change.

6 interpretation subcommittee -- I'm doing acronyms in my 09:58

7

09:51

If it's editorial, like, you know, changing

8 an "a" to a "the" or something like that, it's clear
9 that's an editorial.

09:53

7 head -- and an international liaison subcommittee

09:52

10:07

8 and -- /intersociety association subcommittee. And

09:54

9 then there's a -- there's an ExCom.

09:59

10:03

10:09

10

Q

I'm sorry, there's --

11

A

ExCom.

12

Q

What is ExCom?

13

A

Executive committee.

14 be SPLS for public reviews or standards for publication 09:54

14

Q

Returning to SPLS, what is their role?

15 approval. We make them aware of it -- that concern,

15

A

SPLS is the oversight committee. They're the 10:06

10

If staff questions acceptance of a change as 09:51

11 substantive and the committee does not want to send a
12 new letter ballot out, when it goes to the next body,

09:54

09:57

13 we make the next body aware for approval, which would

09:50

09:50

10:04
10:06
10:08
10:00

16 and then SPLS looks at it and makes a determination of 09:53

16 first level to go to -- they have -- they're assigned

17 whether or not it's substantive or editorial. And then 09:50

17 to -- liaisons are assigned to multiple project

18 if it's substantive and they didn't vote it out, it

09:52

18 committees to help in addition to staff provide

19 goes back to the project committee.

09:54

10:00

19 guidance, and they're the -- the person that moves

20

Q

Could you tell me again what the acronym SPLS 09:55

21 stands for?
22

A

Standards Project Liaison Subcommittee.

23

Q

And is there a separate SPLS for each

24 standard?
25

A

No.

20 forward any of the issues from those project
21 committees.

09:59
09:50

10:00
10:04

22

10:09
10:01
10:05

10:07

They review title, purpose and scope changes, 10:09

23 membership, public review drafts, work plans, and deal 10:04

09:54

24 with issues common to project committees that get

09:59

25 brought before them.

09:59
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10:09

10:03
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1

Q

3

A

1 notice if there's references that need to be updated.

And so you said that SPLS was first. Is that 10:08

2 in terms of -- in terms of what are you referring to?
It depends on the stage in the process.

2

10:03

3 to the "the" type of thing that needs to be fixed

10:08

4 They're the ones that first approve membership, and

10:05

They may see some editorial changes, the "a" 10:09

10:02

10:03

4 that -- or there was an errata issue for that same

10:08

5 then if required, then it goes to standards committee. 10:05

5 reason, so it needs to be incorporated. That wouldn't 10:09

6 They -- there's a process for approving public review

6 be considered a substantive change; it's editorial.

7 drafts. Again, depends on if it's policy level or

10:09

8 nonpolicy level. There's a process for approving

11

Q

And do these processes go through different

13 question?
14

A

10 public review.
10:00

Q

18

A

A

10:01

Why reaffirm a standard? Why not just leave 10:04
10:06

We can't under the ANSI process. ANSI has a 10:08
10:02

15 to be done at the five-year mark of the -- five years

10:01

10:05

16 since it had last published. So we do the reviews at

10:07

10:00

17 three years, so we have to submit paperwork telling

10:05

18 ANSI what we want to do.

The standards reaffirmation subcommittee is a 10:07

19 balance committee. They deal with reaffirming ASHRAE
20 standards that are -- do not require any substantive
22 re -- the reference standards are themselves

10:00

10:05

21 changes. And so what that means is, for example, the

10:07

10:03

23 reaffirmations; there's no changes or there's been no

10:07

24 changes in the standard, and there's no -- been no

10:06

10:04

14 process that we follow that requires -- something has

10:05

What does the standards reaffirmation

17 committee do?

Q

12 it as it is?
13

10:02

15 through -- start -- go through SPLS in some form.
16

11

10:02

Yes, but all the processes I mentioned go

10:04

9 subcommittee, reviews that and then puts it out for

10:00

10:02

12 subcommittees depending on the particular process in

10:02

So the technical committee makes a

8 recommendation, then SRS, the standards reaffirmation

10:05

9 title, purpose and scope changes, and a process for
10 work plan changes or work plans.

7

10:02

10:02

19

10:03

10:06

We would -- either are going to file project 10:09

20 initiation notification system that says we are

10:01

21 revising it or we're going to let them know we are

10:01

22 reaffirming it. We have until the ten years since it's 10:05
23 published to do something and republish; otherwise, it 10:09
24 loses its ANSI status.

10:02

25
25 change in the industry, so we can do what's called the 10:04
Page 42

Q

And for the record, what does ANSI stand for? 10:05
Page 44

1

A

American National Standards Institute.

2

Q

Thank you.

1 reaffirmation and just get issued, you know, as a new
2 standard again, as required by ANSI.
3

10:07

10:01

And then they also act as a revision project 10:04

4 committee in a limited sense. When the technical

10:07

5 committee that does the initial review of the drafts

10:03

3

And what does the code interaction

4 subcommittee do?
5

10:07

10:07

A

10:02
10:05

The code interaction subcommittee is the

10:07

6 says that updating to those references that it may have 10:06

6 group that oversees the process for code change

7 changed does not cause a substantive change to the

7 proposals to the model code bodies.

10:04

8 standard, then SRS in that limited instance can act as 10:02

8

Q

Could you elaborate on that a little bit?

10:04

9 the revision project committee for that. In any event, 10:07

9

A

The model code bodies would be ICC, NFPA, and 10:06

10:09

10 if comments are submitted, then a -- a project

10:01

11 committee -- a separate project committee has to be
12 formed.
13

Q

10:05

10 IAPMO.
11

Q

10:00

10:03

Okay. And who makes the code change

10:09

12 proposals to these model code bodies?

10:07

With regards to reaffirmations, you say that 10:04

13

A

10:06

They can come from the -- typically, it comes 10:09

14 there may be no changes that are made to the standard, 10:06

14 from the project committee members. It can be anybody. 10:01

15 but they are -- they are reaffirmed. Why is that done? 10:08

15 You could propose a change. If it's coming from one of 10:04

16

16 our project committees, the rule is it has to --

A

It's typically done because there hasn't been 10:03

17 any change in the industry on that particular topic.

10:06

10:00

17 whatever proposal, it has to be technically equivalent 10:04

18 It's more done on method of test standards, where there 10:09

18 to whatever standard they're wishing to make the

19 might not be a change in -- in what you need to do to

19 reference to.

20 test a particular product or process that you're
21 working on.
22

10:03

10:06

But typically, we -- we try to ask for --

10:03

21 that the standard be referenced in its entirety with no 10:08

10:00

So there's a technical committee with

20

10:09

10:03

10:01

22 changes, but there are times when they'll pull portions 10:02

23 expertise in that area that would review it after -- a 10:04

23 and submit that instead.

24 staff review is done first to know if there's any

24

10:00

25 reference updates, to put that technical committee on

Q

10:06

Is there a difference between a standard and 10:01

25 a code?
10:02
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1

A

Not exactly. A -- a standard could become a 10:03

2 code, because 90.1 is a standard and it could be the
3 code. It depends on whoever is wanting to make the
4 code -- or make the rule.
5

Q
A

10:01

6 strategic planning; that type of thing.

10:15

10:18

10:09

7

8 standards committee, are these all ASHRAE employees?

9 ASHRAE. They are the body that reviews any proposed

10:07

Q

So the committee members that are part of the 10:14

10:01

10:05
10:01

9

A

No.

10

Q

Are any of them ASHRAE employees?

11

10 changes to any of the procedures related to standards
And then the other thing is they form

10:12

10:04

8 standards or guideline projects to be developed by

12

10:18

5 issues about the subcommittees and then, you know,

10:08

11 and interprets the -- any of our rules.

3 And then I'm the staff liaison for that group, other
4 staff attend, but they -- they just talk about the

10:04

They review proposals for new projects, new

10:18

2 committee and the board -- the board ExO to standards. 10:12

10:08

And what does the policy, procedures and

6 interpretation subcommittee do?
7

1 subcommittees, the chair and the vice chair standards

10:05

A

No, just me as a staff liaison, and then

10:18

10:11
10:13
10:15

12 another staff person that does the minutes.

10:18

13 interpretation sub -- interpretation committees when an 10:04

13

10:11

14 interpretation request is submitted on a standard that 10:07

14 industry?

15 we don't have a standing standard project committee

15

16 for.
17

10:09

10:02

Q

18 know how it is that standards become codes?
THE WITNESS: It -- either they're

21

proposed into a code and the code accepts

22

them, or a local jurisdiction decides to use

23

a standard and that's -- and use that as

24

their code.

25

Q

10:03

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

20

A

So these are -- are these members of
10:16

They're -- they're balanced as well. The

10:00
10:02
10:05

19

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Could I just ask, are
Are we talking about the executive committee?
Are we talking about the previous questions?

23
24
25
10:08
Page 46

(BY MR. BECKER) And when you say "they're

MR. CUNNINGHAM: The standards

1
2

MR BECKER: Yeah

3 code, and they're proposed into that code that NFPA has 10:08

3

4 made?

4

standard? I just wanted to make sure we're

5

clear here

6 part of whatever -- I can't remember the number of the 10:06

6

Q

7 NFPA code that references 90.1, but that becomes part

7 committees are there?

10:11
Page 48

MR CUNNINGHAM: For a specific

So NFPA references 90.1, and that becomes

8 of that code. If they -- through their process, it
9 gets accepted.
10

Q
A

10:09

10:02

8

10:08

A

10:12
10:13
10:13
10:14

10:15

(BY MR BECKER) How many standards

10:11

10:12

There's project committees, and those overdo 10:13

9 the standards, but the standards committee is one

And what does the international liaison or

11 intersociety subcommittee do?
12

10:03

committee

10:04

10:17

10

They're dealing with relationships between us 10:00

13 and sometimes other standards developers, but the

10:02

Q

There's just one standards committee?

11

10:08

A

With the -- right, with the subcommittees

10:19
10:11

12

Q

And what's the difference between the

10:17

13 projects committees and the standards committees?

14 majority of their work is in the -- is in the oversight 10:06

14

15 of the development of international standards.

15 the group that's responsible for writing the standard

16

Q

10:10

What involvement does ASHRAE have in the

17 development of international standards?
18

A

10:15

10:17

We are the secretariat for several of the

19 international standards organization technical

THE COURT REPORTER: "Is an oversight"?
THE WITNESS: Yes
Q

20 members of the project committees?

10:16

A

No

22 U.S.

22

Q

Are the members of the project committees

10:16
And, finally, you mentioned the executive

10:11

24 committee. What does the executive committee do?
25

A

That is the -- the chairs of each of the

10:13

10:18

23 people from various interest categories -24

A

Yes

25

10:15

10:15

(BY MR BECKER) And are any ASHRAE employees 10:13

21

Q

10:18

10:19

21 TAG, which is the technical advisory groups within the 10:11
23

10:13

16 Standards committee is an over -- oversight committee

19

10:18

10:19

A project committee is the one that is -- is 10:11

18

10:15

20 committees. We are also the secretariat for the U.S.

A

17

10:19

10:19

10:10

10:02

10:02

10:16
10:18

MR. BECKER: The standards committee as
a whole.

2 mean that a -- that something like NFPA might make a

A

10:14

22

10:02

10:13

we talking about the project committee here?

21

10:04

10:15

18 they are members of ASHRAE, but they're from all over. 10:19
20

10:07

10:12

17 they use. There are -- they're members -- they're --

1 proposed into a code and the code accepts them," do you 10:00

5

10:19

16 board has slightly different interest categories that

I'm sorry, just to back up a moment. Do you 10:09

19

Q

Q

-- as you had defined previously?

Page 47

10:13

10:19

10:13
10:13

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1

A

Yes.

2

Q

And are the project committee membership --

10:16

1

4 categories?
5

A

2

to schedule my deposition. I'm guessing

10:11

3

February.

4

3 memberships balanced based off of those interest

this when we first tried to -- started trying

10:16

Q

10:14

Yes. Whatever interest categories the

10:16

10:15
10:19

10:11

(BY MR. BECKER) And have you reviewed the

5 topics of examination that's starting on page 4?

6 project committee has, then they're balanced based on

10:18

6

A

Yes.

7 the number of project committees. That doesn't mean,

10:12

7

Q

And you're aware that you are here as a

8 you know, if there's 30 people and you have five

10:14

9 interest categories, there's six in each. It means no 10:17
10 more than 50 percent in one interest -- interest
11 category.
12

Q

10:13
10:17

8 30(b)(6) designee for ASHRAE with regards to particular 10:19
9 topics of examination?

10:14

10:16

10

10:13

Yes.

11

10:17

So why is it that these people who are not

A

10:17

Q

And that means that -- that you are expected 10:17

12 to prepare and be knowledgeable as to those particular 10:10

13 ASHRAE employees participate in the project committees? 10:10

13 topics, correct?

14

10:16

14

A

Yes.

10:18

15

Q

And those topics are, topic number 1, "The

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

15

10:14

10:16

THE WITNESS: I would say because either

16

they really like that topic, it may affect --

10:10

17

you know, it may be because it affects

18

something that they do in their business.

19

They may be in the -- in the code arena and

20

they want to make sure it's written so that

21

you can adopt it in code. It could be a

22

number of reasons why they choose to

23

participate.

24

Q

10:13
10:14
10:16

16 process and activities of developing the works at

10:11

10:14

17 issue, including participation of government and

10:14

10:16

18 private sector personnel in standards development."

10:18

10:17

19

Q

And did you prepare for that topic?

21

A

Yes.

22

10:18

Yes.

20

10:13
10:16

A

10:10

Q

And have you been using your knowledge of

10:11

10:13
10:17

23 that topic in the answers that you had given me earlier 10:19

10:10

(BY MR. BECKER) And why is it that they'd

25 want to participate for a standard that would be

10:16

24 today concerning the standards committee and project
25 committee?

10:18

10:13

10:18

Page 50
1 adopted into code?

Page 52
1

10:12

2

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

10:14

3

THE WITNESS: My -- my guess would be

4

that, you know, it's going to affect their --

5

their business somehow or the -- you know, or

6

the jurisdiction in which they work.

7

Q

10:17

Yes.

Q

And have you been using your knowledge with

10:19

3 regards to that topic as it applies to the other

10:11

10:13

4 answers that you've provided me about the ASHRAE's

10:18
10:12

5 operations?

10:12
10:13

10:16

10:19

6

10:16

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

8 you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1076.

A

2

A

Yes.

7

Q

And the other topics that you have prepared

10:10

8 for today include topic number 2, correct?

10:10
10:12

9

A

For the copyright?

10

Q

For topic number 2, "All elements of the

10:12

11 Heating, Refrigeration, and Air-Conditioning Engineers, 10:18

11 chain of title of copyright ownership, including

10:15

12 Inc. And this document had been previously introduced 10:18

12 copyright authorship and ownership of component parts

13 in Mr. Comstock's deposition.

13 of the works at issue in this case"?

9 This is Defendant Public.Resource.Org's Amended Notice 10:19
10 of Rule 30(b)(6) Deposition of American Society of

10:13

10:13

14

A

Okay.

15

Q

Have you seen this document before,

10:17

16 Ms. Reiniche -- excuse me, Ms. Reiniche?

10:19

A

Yes.

18

Q

And when did you first see this document

10:18
10:16

Yes.

10:14

15

Q

And you've also prepared for topic number 3, 10:17

16 "The authority of persons executing copyright

10:10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: So I'm -- Matt, this

10:11

question is obviously fine, but I just want
to caution the witness to not go into the

10:15

23

substance of any communications that may have

24

occurred between you and counsel.

10:13

THE WITNESS: I probably would have seen

10:13
10:17
10:19

20 employees to assign copyrights they do not own

10:12

21 individually"?

10:13

22

18 copyright rights in their works or expression,

19 including but not limited to evidence of authority of

10:10

21

25

A

17 assignment forms in favor of you to convey the

17

20

10:19

10:13

14

10:16

19 before, to your recollection?

10:11

10:15

22
10:18

A

Yes.

23

Q

On to page 5. You've also prepared for topic 10:13

10:16

24 number 6; is that correct?
25
10:15
Page 51

A

Yes.

10:17
10:11
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Q And you have also prepared for topic
10:15
1
number 11; is that correct?
10:18
2
A Yes.
10:20
3
Q And on to page 6, you have also prepared for 10:27 4
topic number 15; is that correct?
10:23
5
A Yes.
10:27
6
Q And you've also prepared for topic number 16; 10:29 7
is that correct?
10:23
8
A Yes.
10:23
9
Q And you've also prepared for topic number 17; 10:24 10
is that correct?
10:27
11
A Yes.
10:28
12
Q And you've also prepared for topic number 19; 10:29 13
is that correct?
10:23
14
A Yes.
10:23
15
Q And you've also prepared for topics 20, 21, 10:25 16
and 22; is that correct?
10:29
17
A Yes.
10:23
18
Q And you've also prepared for topic 25; is
10:28 19
that correct?
10:25
20
A Yes.
10:26
21
Q You've also prepared for topic number 26; is 10:27 22
that correct?
10:20
23
A Yes.
10:23
24
Q And have you also prepared for topic
10:25
25

excuse me.

10:41

Ms. Reiniche, do you see that this is a

10:49

status report that has been filed in the -- this case? 10:41
A

Yes.

Q

And if you turn to page 3, do you see that it 10:40

10:46

says that it was submitted by Thane Rehn, counsel for

10:45

NFPA, with permission from counsel for ASTM, ASHRAE,
and Public Resource?
A

Yes.

Q

And turning to page 2, do you see under the

10:41
10:41

heading "Discovery Issues Pending from December 1

10:49

Hearing, ASHRAE," where it then says that "At the last 10:41
hearing, the Court ordered ASHRAE to produce assignment 10:48
forms and lists of persons who signed those forms. For 10:42
pre-2010 forms, ASHRAE was ordered to produce lists of 10:45
project committee members because ASHRAE did not have
other lists of signees readily available. ASHRAE

10:21

represents it has completed its production of all lists 10:46
of all persons who signed forms for its 2010 version of 10:48
Standard 90.1, lists of project committee members for

10:44

pre-2010 versions of Standard 90.1 and ASHRAE's

10:47

assignment forms. With that representation, Public

10:42

Resource agrees the motion is now moot as to ASHRAE."
Do you see that?
A

Yes.

A

Yes.

3

Q

And have you also prepared for topics 28 and 10:21

4 29?
5

A

6

Q

7

10:21

10:49

Thank you.

10:21
10:21

9

about to --

14

10:21

10:21
10:21

MR. BECKER: Yeah.

17
18

19 (Recess taken.)

10:21

at 10:44.

24

Q

10:42

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, could you tell 10:49

A

10:40

10:46

That means it -- this says revised 9/7/2001. 10:47
10:46
10:41

16
10:21

10:39

Q

17 tell you?
A

10:45

Thank you. And what -- what does this roster 10:47
10:43

This roster tells me who the voting members

10:48

19 were, along with their interest categories, and who the 10:40
10:39

10:39

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record

23

11

18

20 (Exhibit 1119, Exhibit 1120, and Exhibit 1121
22

Q

15 report to print the roster.

10:21

21 marked for identification.)

10:40

13 been approved or a correction made to the roster that

10:21

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record
at 10:21.

starts at Bates number ASHRAE0002835.

14 date and then printed 9/10/01, was when we ran the

MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's fine.

16

I'll note that this is the document that

7

10:47

12 That would mean that there was -- either something had 10:42

10:21

15

10:45

10:41

MR. BECKER: And just for the record,

10 document signify?

10:21

MR. BECKER: Let's take a break right
now.

10:47

9 me what the dates in the top left corner of this
10:21

MR. CUNNINGHAM: -- switch topics, do

13

This is a roster for Standard 90.1 project

8

10:21

10:21

MR. BECKER: Yeah.
you want to take a break?

A

6

for about an hour and 20 minutes. If you're

12

3
5

8

11

Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing you the exhibit

4 committee.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Matt, we've been going

10

Q

2 marked 1120. Could you tell me what this document is? 10:40

10:21
Yes.

10:45

10:48
Page 56

1

2

10:49

10:41

Page 54
1 number 27; is that correct?

10:41

10:48

20 SPLS liaison was at the time, who the consultants were, 10:42
21 who the staff liaisons were, and who the technical

10:39

10:44

22 committee liaisons were on the roster.
23

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

25 you what has been marked as Exhibit 119 -- or 1119,

10:44

Q

10:46
10:41

And for the project committee, that would be 10:48

24 the people who were contributing text to the Standard

10:44
25 90.1 at that time; is that correct?
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10:42

10:49
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Do you mean everyone on the roster, or do you 10:42

1

Q

And would that have meant that the -- the

10:58

2 mean just project committee?

10:45

2 records for the 2007 edition of 90.1 would have been

3

Q

For everyone on the roster.

10:40

3 destroyed at the time of the 2010 publishing?

4

A

For -- yes, for everyone on the roster.

5

Q

And so are there people outside of the

If they were destroyed, then yes.

Q

You had mentioned before the term "continuous 10:59

10:52

6 maintenance change." What does that mean?

10:53

7

10:43

10:46

10:56

A

Standard 90.1 is on continuous maintenance,

8 so anyone at any time can propose a change to the

8

A

Yes.

10:48

9

Q

And would all of the people who were

11 listed on these pages of the roster?

10 the public. If it's the public, then there's a

10:43

12 submitted.

A

No.

13

10:48

Q

So what other people would have been

10:49

13

14 change proposal forms, would those also have been

Commenters on -- draft goes out for comment

10:46

Q

10:51

10:54

10:42

14 contributing text to Standard 90.1 at that time?

10:53

10:56

11 continuous maintenance change proposal form that gets

10:46

12

10:59

9 standard. It could be a project committee member or

10:40

10 contributing text to Standard 90.1 at that time be

A

A

5

10:40

6 project committee that would be contributing text to

15

4

10:44

7 Standard 90.1 at that time?

10:52

10:59

And similarly, for the continuous maintenance 10:56

15 destroyed?

10:51

10:54

16 and those who submitted a continuous maintenance change 10:40

16

A

They could have been destroyed.

17 proposal.

17

Q

Who would know whether or not these documents 10:52

18

Q

19
20

10:43

And where does -- excuse me.

A

10:53

Q

What was the ASHRAE's record retention

24 policy?
25

A

10:56
10:59

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object

21

retention policy is outside the scope of the

23

30(b)(6) topics.

10:50

10:56
10:58

10:52

You can answer.

25
We follow the ANSI policy of keeping records 10:53
Page 58

1 back to the last prior revisions.

10:54

that the line of questioning about document

24

10:52

10:55

10:50

22

10:54

22 wouldn't require us to keep records this far back.

19 were or were not destroyed?
20

We have lists of commenters. For this year, 10:58

21 I don't know, because our record retention policy
23

18 for the 2010 prior editions of ASHRAE Standard 90.1

10:44

Does ASHRAE keep lists of commenters?

10:56

10:54

THE WITNESS: Okay. I would -- I --

10:57
Page 60

1

there is a log of files that we keep that are

2

at Iron Mountain. I have access to those

10:54

3

logs, can find out what's there. I would not

10:54

4

know what was or was not destroyed unless I

5

brought every single box back from Iron

10:54

6

Mountain, assuming they are all labeled

10:54

7

correctly.

8 electronic, we probably still have them. There may be 10:51

8

Q

9 some in paper format that are in Iron Mountain. I

9 Exhibit 1119 on page 2, where it says that ASHRAE was 10:55

2

Q

And what is the last prior revision for

3 Standard 90.1?

10:50

10:50

4

A

2013.

10:50

5

Q

So does that mean that ASHRAE would not have 10:51

6 records for the 2010 addition of 90.1?
7

A

10:51

Not necessarily. We -- if they're

10:51

10 can't guarantee that all the prior stuff is still

10:51

10:51

11 there, especially if it's not in electronic format.
Q

And what is Iron Mountain?

13

A

It's an off-site storage facility.

14

Q

And does the -- your same answer that you

10:54

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, looking at

11 does Exhibit 1120 provide that list of project

10:51

10:55

13
10:51

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.

14

THE WITNESS: This is only at one point

15 don't necessarily have records as to the 2007 and 2004 10:51

15

in time, so this isn't every single one.

16 edition of Standard 90.1 also apply?

10:51

16

This is at one point.

17

10:51

17

Q

A

That would be correct. Some -- if it's

19 it's paper, it may or may not still be at Iron
20 Mountain.
21

Q

10:51

10:55
10:55

(BY MR. BECKER) But would it provide that

18 for that one point in time?

10:51

10:55
10:55

19
10:52

Yes.

20

10:51

At what point would ASHRAE have destroyed

A

10:55

Q

Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing you what has been 10:56

21 marked as Exhibit 1121 --

10:56

22

A

Okay.

23 if it had done so?

23

Q

-- which reads "ASHRAE Roster." Could you

A

10:52

If we destroyed it, we could have destroyed 10:52

25 it at the time of 2013 publishing.

10:55

10:55

22 these documents for Standard 20 -- 90.1 2010 edition, 10:52
24

10:54

10:55

12 committee members for Standard 90.1?

10:51

18 electronic, then we probably still have it. But if

10:54

10 ordered to produce lists of project committee members, 10:55

10:51

12

10:53

24 tell me what this is?

10:52

25

A

10:56
10:56

This is the roster that would have been --

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10:56

10:56
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1 for 90.1 that would have been published on 8/7 of '02. 10:56

1 December 17th, 2008.

2 (Exhibit 1122 marked for identification.)

2 (Exhibit 1130 marked for identification.)

3

Q

4

10:56

(BY MR. BECKER) Thank you.

10:56

And I'm handing you what has been marked as

3

10:50

Q

11:00
11:02

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:01

4 marked as Exhibit 1130, Bates number ASHRAE0016583.

5 Exhibit 1122. Could you tell me what this document is? 10:53

5 Could you tell me what this document is?

6

6

A

This is the roster for 90.1 that was printed 10:57

7 on September 19th, 2002.

10:50

8 (Exhibit 1123 marked for identification.)
9

Q

A

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 10:54
10:54

Q

13

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 10:53

A

Q

10:54

Q

Looking over the ASHRAE rosters that I've

11:00
11:02
11:00

A

No.

20

10:53

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 10:57

11:03

Q

And in your role at ASHRAE, are you familiar 11:00

21 with these rosters?

11:03

10:58 22

A

Yes.

23

Q

And have you used these rosters in your daily 11:06

10:55

This is the roster for 90.1 as of December 6, 10:57

25 2005.

11:01
11:04

19

23 Could you tell me what this document is?
A

This is the roster for 90.1 as of

18 documents that have been provided by ASHRAE?

22 marked as Exhibit 1125, ASHRAE Bates number 0002847.
24

15

24 line of work?

10:51

25

A

Yes.

11:05
11:02
11:02

Page 62
1 (Exhibit 1126 marked for identification.)
2

Q

11:06

17 reason why you would think that these are not authentic 11:06

10:58

20 (Exhibit 1125 marked for identification.)
21

A

10:55 16 just provided you as these exhibits, is there any

10:52

This is the roster for 90.1 as of

19 August 27th, 2004.

11:01

11:02

11:00

14 February 19th, 2010.

16 marked as Exhibit 1124, Bates number ASHRAE0002578.
18

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what has

12 is, please?

10:55

17 Could you tell me what this document is?

Q

11 ASHRAE0005359. Could you tell me what this document

10:59

14 (Exhibit 1124 marked for identification.)
15

9

11:09

10:56 10 been marked as Exhibit 1131, Bates number

This is the roster for 90.1 that was printed 10:56

13 March 23rd, 2003.

11:07

8 (Exhibit 1131 marked for identification.)

10 marked as Exhibit 1123, Bates number ASHRAE0002610.
12

This is the roster for 90.1 as of July 21st, 11:02

7 2009.

10:51

11 Could you tell me what this document is?

A

11:02

11:00

10:58

Page 64
1 (Exhibit 1132 marked for identification.)

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 10:58

2

Q

11:07

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:05

3 marked as Exhibit 1126, ASHRAE0002872. Could you tell 10:58

3 marked as Exhibit 1132, Bates number ASHRAE0002467.

4 me what this document is?

4 Could you tell me what this document is, please?

5

A

10:59

This is the roster for 90.1 as of April 4th, 10:59

6 2006.

10:59

7 (Exhibit 1127 marked for identification.)
8

Q

5

Q

18

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what has

19 2008.

10:59

21

Q

19

Q

11:02

11:06

A

11:03

And does the proposer number correlate to

11:00

11:02

The proposal -- that's just how the committee 11:02

Q

Can multiple people be affiliated with a

A

They could.

11:03

Q

Is this a document that ASHRAE would

11:00

11:09

21
22

11:00

11:04

11:06

20 single proposal?

11:00

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:00

This is the roster for 90.1 as of

14

18 It gets marked on their form.

11:00 23 ordinarily retain, rather than destroying with its

11:01
11:05

24 document destruction policy, to your knowledge?
11:00

11:08

25

11:00
A

This document tells me who submitted change

15 something else?

11:00

23 ASHRAE0002902. Could you tell me what this document
25

11:01

17 tracks it so they know which proposal they're doing.

22 marked as Exhibit 1129 of -- Bates number
24 is?

A

10:59 16

This is the roster for 90.1 as of June 16th, 11:00

20 (Exhibit 1129 marked for identification.)

And what does this document tell us?

13 came in.
10:59

11:00
A

Q

12 proposal number it is, when it was received and how it 11:00

16 ASHRAE0013632. Could you tell me what this document
17 is?

11:00

9

11 proposals. It gives their proposer number, what

10:59

15 been marked as Exhibit 1128, Bates number

8 2004.

11:09

11:03

10

10:59
10:59

13 (Exhibit 1128 marked for identification.)
14

10:59

This is the roster for 90.1 as of May 5th -- 10:59

12 I mean, May 3rd, 2007.

11:05

7 been to the 90.1 2001 version printed January 5th,

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 10:59

10 Could you tell me what this document is?
A

This is the report for proposals received

6 under continuous maintenance for 90.1. It would have
10:59

9 marked as Exhibit 1127, Bates number ASHRAE0002895.
11

A

11:06

11:03

11:00
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THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, it is

2
3

was entered in the database. At the time, we

4

had the database that tracks them. And

5

provided there's not an issue with the

6

database, then it would be kept.

7

Q

11:01

probably something we keep it's a -- if it

A

11

Q

11:05

11:06
11:07

11:09

They just aren't using it -- there may have 11:07

11:07
11:07

11:07
11:08

7

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:08

And do you know when ASHRAE first started

13

A

Around 2003.

11:08

14

Q

What kind of information does that database

11:02

11:08

9 ASHRAE0002469. Could you tell me what this document
10 is?

11:05

A

A

8 marked as Exhibit number 1133. This is Bates number

12 using that database?

16

11:07

6 (Exhibit 1133 marked for identification.)

We have a continuous maintenance change

15 contain?

Why is that?

5 but we don't use a Task Sheet 9 now.

11:04

10 proposal access database.

No.

Q

4 been one way back when they did everything in paper,

11:01

(BY MR. BECKER) And what database are you

8 referring to?
9

11:09

A

3

11:06

1
2

11:04

11

11:08

11:08
A

These are proposals received for continuous 11:08

12 maintenance of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 2004 dated as of
13 January 4th, 2005.
11:04

11:07

14

Q

11:08

For both Exhibit 1132 and 1133, it appears

15 that the dates that the proposals were received --

What you see in this report, which is the

11:07

17 proposer, the number, proposal date, when it was

16 excuse me, let me say that again.

11:00

17

11:08

11:08
11:08

11:08

For Exhibits 1132 and 1133, it appears that 11:08

18 received. And then there -- there will be a date that 11:03

18 the date of the document in the top right corner is

19 isn't shown on here that tells when the committee would 11:07

19 subsequent to the year of the standard itself; is that 11:09

20 have responded so that we can close out the proposal.

20 correct?

21

Q

And does the database also contain the

22 content of the proposal itself?

11:01

11:06

A

No.

24

Q

Where would someone find the content of the

11:02

A

You mean --

22

23

25 proposal itself?

11:09

21

11:00

11:08

Q

Let me clarify. For -- for Exhibit 1132,

11:09
11:09

23 that exhibit pertains to Standard 90.1 2001, but the
11:04

11:07

11:09

24 document itself is from January 5th, 2004; is that

11:09

25 correct?

11:09

Page 66
1

A

If it was -- when we were saving

11:09

Page 68
1

A

That's correct.

2 electronically, then there will be a -- what we call a 11:03

2

Q

And why is that?

3 task sheet that we save on our network drive where

3

A

That would have been at the one-year mark -- 11:07

4 they're saved. And then if not, it's in paper. It

11:09

5 would have been sent to Iron Mountain.
6

Q

11:06

And what would be the title of the document

8

A

9

Q

On the network drive?
Yeah.

11:05

4 well, they have 13 months to -- to respond to

11:03

7 that would have this -- one of these proposals in it?

11:05

11:06
11:09

11:05

6 so this would have been printed prior to their January 11:07
7 2004 meeting, because we would want to know what the
8 status of the continuous maintenance change proposals

11:06

9 were at that time.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

11:09

10

11

THE WITNESS: It's probably Task Sheet 6

11:01

11 those be -- if made effective, would those be made

would be the title.

13

Q

11:05

The proposals that were reflected here, would 11:11
11:16

12 effective in Standard 90.1 2001 or in a later version? 11:15

(BY MR. BECKER) And what does -- are there

14 other task sheets?

Q

11:01
11:05

11:10

10
12

11:02

5 continuous maintenance change proposals within a year, 11:05

11:06

15

A

Yes.

16

Q

And what are the other task sheets?

11:04

17

A

There's a Task Sheet 1 for new projects; Task 11:08

13

A

A later version.

14

11:03

Q

So the proposals reflected in Exhibit 1132,

11:10
11:19

15 would those, if they had been enacted, be enacted into 11:13
11:05

18 Sheet 2 that was membership; Task Sheet 3 is title,

16 Standard 90.1 2004?

11:02

17

A

Yes.

11:18
11:10

18 (Exhibit 1134 marked for identification.)

11:12

19 purpose and scope change. I don't believe we have a 4; 11:07

19

20 a Task Sheet 5, which is public review; Task Sheet 7,

20 marked as Exhibit 1134, Bates number ASHRAE0022821.

21 which is publication; and Task Sheet 8, which is

11:02
11:07

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:10

21 Could you tell me what this document is, please?

22 appeals. And Task Sheet 10 might -- there might be a

11:03

22

23 Task Sheet 10 now. We might have switched the

11:07

23 review draft for an addendum to 90.1 2004.

24 continuous maintenance to that.
25

Q

Is there a Task Sheet 9?

11:01

24

11:03

A
Q

This is the form to comment on a public
And do you see where it says "Number 2,

25 copyright release"?
Page 67

11:11

11:19
11:12
11:17
11:17

11:10
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A

Yes.

2

Q

What is the significance of the copyright

3 release?

11:12

1
11:12

11:12

3

4

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

5

THE WITNESS: It -- the significance of

11:12
11:12

it is when the commenter submits their

7

comments, they are giving ASHRAE the

8

nonexclusive rights to use whatever material

11:12

9

they submit in their comments to change or

11:12

11:12

11

copyright, and they don't.

Q

11:11

11:16

Does this document contain a copyright

4 release as well?

11:10

11:14

5

11:12

modify the standard and then ASHRAE owns the

This is a document to submit a continuous

A

Yes.

6

6

10

A

2 maintenance change proposal.

11:15

Q

Could you please mark on the page where the

7 copyright release is?

8 (Witness complied with the request of counsel.)
9

11:12

11:12

A

10

11:12

11:16

There's two spots.

11:13

11:13

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to go ahead

11

and object again to form here, Matt.
Q

11:15

11:19

12

MR. BECKER: I'm sorry, Counsel, will

11:12

12

13

you mind elaborating on the reason for your

11:12

13 marked with a number 1 and number 2; is that correct?

14

objection?

15

11:12

conclusion.

17

Q

That's correct.

Q

Why does ASHRAE use two copyright releases on 11:12

16 this form?

(BY MR. BECKER) Why does ASHRAE include the 11:12 17
11:12

THE WITNESS: We include it so that we
can include the material in -- in the

22

having to get copyright permission; because

24

they're giving it, we don't have to go back.

25

They're giving it when they sign it.

11:13

signature in. I just think there's a

signature line that we missed when we made
the form.

24

11:13
11:13

send it in or they could put an electronic

23

11:12

allowed it so they could either sign it and

22

11:12

Q

11:10

THE WITNESS: Actually, I think we

19
20

11:12

document that they're commenting on without

23

11:19

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

18
11:12

21

11:12

21

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

20

11:19

A

15

11:12

11:12

18 copyright release in this document?
19

11:18

14

MR. CUNNINGHAM: It calls for a legal

16

(BY MR. BECKER) And those two spots you've

11:11
11:11
11:14
11:17
11:18

11:10

(BY MR. BECKER) So this form should have

25 a -- a signature line below the first copyright

11:13

11:14

Page 70
1

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Does ASHRAE believe that it 11:10

2 owns the copyright if somebody signs this form?

11:11

1 release, but it does not?

11:10

A

Yes.

4

Q

Would ASHRAE accept a form like this if it

11:16
11:12

11:16

2

A

Correct.

3

3

5 had not been signed and dated?

Page 72

11:11

Q

And if this form were printed out and sent to 11:13

4 ASHRAE, would ASHRAE reject it if someone had not
5 signed below the first copyright release?

6

A

No.

7

Q

Do you know of any instance in which ASHRAE

11:18

6
11:11

A

On this one, we would have allowed either the 11:17

7 electronic signature if they printed it with the

11:10

8 has accepted a form like this if it has not been signed 11:14

8 electronic or if they had signed it, because the

9 and dated?

9 language was the same.

11:17

10

A

No.

11:18

11

Q

Do you have any reason to believe that this

10
11:11

12 document produced by ASHRAE is not an authentic
13 document?
A

No.

15

11:13

Q

And are you familiar with this document

Would ASHRAE accept this document if someone 11:19

12 name"?
13

11:16

16 through your work at ASHRAE?

A

11:11

15

Q

If -- if they did not sign it and did not

A

Yes.

18

Q

Is this one of the documents that you review? 11:19

19

A

Yes.

19

11:16

17 copyright release -- the first copyright release in

11:13

22 been marked as Exhibit 1135, Bates number
A

Yes.

25

Q

And what is this document?

11:19

21

Q

11:15

11:17

And comparing the first and second copyright 11:12

23 between those two are?
24

11:19

25

11:19

11:10

There is missing -- oh, no, I just can't read 11:10

22 release in 1135, can you say what the differences

11:12

23 ASHRAE0022819. Do you recognize this document?

A

11:17

11:12

11:13

20 right. No, they're the same.

11:16

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what has

24

11:13

Comparing documents Exhibits 1134 and 1135,

18 1135?

Q

11:10

16 is the copyright release in 1134 the same as the

17

21

11:14

11:10

14 insert their name, we would not accept it.
11:13

20 (Exhibit 1135 marked for identification.)

11:11

11:14

11 had not typed in their name where it says "I, insert

11:16

14

Q

11:19

11:13

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm just going to
object. Matt, I think the document speaks

Page 71

11:16

11:10
11:11
11:12
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19 (Pages 70 - 73)
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for itself here

2

1

3

is one we allow electronic signature, and the

4

other is just a hand -- is a handwritten

5

signature

6

Q

11:12

Q

(BY MR BECKER) Thank you

Yes

12

Q

And what is this document?

13

A

This is the -- the form to comment on a

22

Q

A

That's correct.

11:21

Q

11:28

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

11:27
11:27

Yes.

Q

And what is this document?

16

11:26

A

This is the form to submit a proposed change 11:28

11:27

17 to an ASHRAE standard under continuous maintenance.

11:17

18

11:18

Q

And does this document contain the same two

20 exhibit, 1137?

11:28

23 on -- at Exhibit 1136, if you look at the second page

A

Yes.

22

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, looking again 11:26

11:20

11:24

21

11:28

11:21

11:27

19 copyright releases that were featured in the previous

11:27

11:29

Q

And at the bottom of the page, does this

11:22

23 document show that it was revised on March 9th, 2007?

11:26

24

24 of the exhibit, could you tell me what the significance 11:22
25 of the date on the second page is?

11:21

A

15

11:10

11:14

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record
at 11:22

9

11:20

14

11:17

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

21

And Exhibit 1137 says that it was revised on 11:21

13 ASHRAE0022820. Do you recognize this document?

11:14

THE COURT REPORTER: Can we go off the

20

Q

12 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1138, Bates number

11:13

14 public review draft standard guideline or addendum

at 11:19

11:25

10 (Exhibit 1138 marked for identification.)

11:12

19 (Recess taken )

11:20

That's correct.

11

A

18

11:26

A

8 correct?

11:10

11

17

And which is the same as the copyright

7 January 30th, 2006 on the back of the document; is that 11:26

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:12

record a second?

Q

6

11:11
11:14

9 marked as Exhibit 1136, Bates number ASHRAE0022823 Do 11:14

16

11:25

5

10 you recognize this document?

15

11:22

Yes.

4 releases on Exhibit 1135; is that correct?

11:15

11:10

7 (Exhibit 1136 marked for identification )
8

1136.

A

3

11:11

Q

2

11:14

THE WITNESS: The -- the only difference

A

Yes.

25 (Exhibit 1139 marked for identification.)

11:27

11:24

11:25
11:21

Page 74
1

A

That was when we were -- we must have made a 11:23

Page 76
1

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:26

2 revision. So if we changed anything, even if it's one 11:23

2 marked as Exhibit 1139. This is Bates number

3 word, we put a new revision date on a form.

3 ASHRAE0022814. Do you recognize this document?

4

Q

11:23

And returning to Exhibit 1135, is that also 11:23
11:23

11:23

7

A

Yes.

11:23

8

Q

And returning to Exhibit 1134 at the back of 11:23

11

A

Yes.

12

Q
Q

11:24
11:24

16 0022825. Do you recognize this document?

Could you tell me what this document is?

A

This is an Application for Project Committee 11:26

11:24

Q

Does this document include a copyright

9 release under section 6?

11:27
11:27

11:20

A

Yes.

Q

Apart from referring to ASHRAE standard or

11:22

11:24

14 as the copyright -- the first copyright release in
15 Exhibit 1138?

Yes.

11:24

18

Q

And what is this document?

19

A

This is a form for commenting on a public

11:24

20 review draft to an ASHRAE standard, guideline or

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Actually, it differs.

18
11:24

11:24

Q
A

There's additional language included in

20 Exhibit 1139.
21

And does this document also contain the same 11:24

11:26
11:20

(BY MR. BECKER) How does it differ?

19

11:24

11:22

11:23

16
17

A

11:24
11:20

13 release under section 6 of Exhibit 1139 appear the same 11:24
11:24

11:24

17

Q

Q

12 guideline project committee, does this copyright

15 marked as Exhibit 1137. This is ASHRAE Bates number

22

5

11

(BY MR. BECKER) Handing you what's been

21 addendum.

11:24

10

11:24

13 (Exhibit 1137 marked for identification.)
14

Yes.

8

11:23

Thank you.

A

7 Organizational Representative Membership form.

9 that document where it says "REV 03-01-2004," is that 11:23
10 also what that date means?

11:20

4
6

5 what "revised 1/30/2006" means at the bottom of that
6 document?

11:26

Q

11:22
11:24

11:29

And could you tell me what that -- excuse me, 11:21

22 could you tell me what that additional language is?

23 copyright release -- excuse me, the same two copyright 11:24

23

24 releases that had appeared on the previous exhibit?

11:24

24 contributions I make to documents prepared by or for

25

A

Which one?

11:24

11:25

A

In the third sentence down, it adds, "to any 11:29

25 such committee for ASHRAE publication." And -- and
Page 75

11:24
11:28
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2

Q

11:22

3 was revised?
4

A
Q

11:21

11:21

October 2009.

11:23

(BY MR. BECKER) Handing you what's been

11:35

11:35

11:32

A

Yes.

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:32

11

A

This is the ASHRAE Standard Guideline Project 11:34

A

And does this Exhibit 1140 include a

11:38

11:31

14 copyright release under section 5?

Actually, I -- I would -- correct. If it was 11:30

7 would have been why it would have been redacted.

A

Yes.

16

Q

Could you tell me if this copyright release

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:34

10 marked as Exhibit 1142. This is ASHRAE Bates number

11:39

12 numbers, does this document appear to you to be

11:33

A

Yes.

11:36

11:32

15 (Exhibit 1143 marked for identification.)
11:30

17 differs in any way from the copyright release on

11:35

11:30

19
20

16

Q

11:33

THE WITNESS: The only difference is

11:31

21

that on form 1139, it says "elected as an

22

organizational member" versus 1140, which is

11:34

23

"as a member."

24

Q

11:32

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:38

17 marked as Exhibit 1143. Could you tell me what this
18 document is?

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

19

A

11:35

This is the Form for Continuous Maintenance

20 Change Proposal.

11:32

Q

And do you recognize this document?

22

A

Yes.

Q

And could you tell me when this document was 11:37

24 last revised?

11:35
25
Page 78

A

1 to fill out in order to obtain membership with ASHRAE? 11:30

1

Q

2

11:30

11:32
11:30

2 copyright releases as in Exhibit 1135?

11:37

3 (Exhibit 1141 marked for identification.)
4

Q

11:30

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:30

5 marked as Exhibit 1141. Do you recognize this
6 document?

11:36

11:39

23

11:33

(BY MR. BECKER) Are Exhibits 1139 and

For project committees, yes.

11:30

21

11:30

25 Exhibits 1140 documents that individuals are required

A

11:35

11 0001618. With the exception of the different Bates

14

11:36

11:38

11:35

13 identical to the previous exhibit, Exhibit 1141?

11:34

15

11:38

11:36

6 contact information of the individual on here, and that 11:36

9
11:32

12 Committee Application for Individual Membership.

18 Exhibit 1139?

11:32

8 (Exhibit 1142 marked for identification.)

9

Q

Does ASHRAE ordinarily keep a document that

5 redacted, it was probably because it had contact -- or 11:32

10

13

No.

Q

4
11:31

7 marked as Exhibit 1140. Do you recognize this
8 document?

A

2

3 would look like this in its redacted form?

5 (Exhibit 1140 marked for identification.)
6

1

Could you tell me on what date Exhibit 1139

11:31

3

January 30th, 2006.

11:31
Page 80

A

And does this document have the same two
Yes.

11:37

4 (Exhibit 1144 marked for identification.)
5

Q

11:37

11:37
11:37

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:38

6 marked as Exhibit 1144. Do you recognize this

11:36

7 document?

11:39

11:38

11:38

7

A

Yes.

8

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:30

8

A

Yes.

9

A

This document is -- language includes our

11:33

9

Q

Could you tell me what it is?

10

A

This is the Form for Commenting in a Public 11:38

10 copyright information for electronic or -- or the
11 signing.
12

Q

11:37

13 same two copyright releases that were seen in Exhibit
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

16

THE WITNESS: There's a few "and"s
missing in the -- in -- in 1141 that are in

18

1135. And in 1141, the signature line is

19

than that, they're the same.

21

Q

11:38
11:36

included, which is not in 1135. But other

20

Q

And looking at the second page of this

11:35

A

March 1st, 2004.

16

Q

And does this document have the same

11:38

Yes.

11:38
11:38

11:39

19 (Exhibit 1145 marked for identification.)
20

11:38

A
Q

11:38

11:38

15

18

11:30

11:39

(BY MR. BECKER) Handing you what's been

11:32

Does this document appear to be redacted to

21 marked as Exhibit 1145. This is Bates number

11:35

11:39

22 ASHRAE0001606. Could you -- do you recognize this
23 document?

11:38

A

Yes.

25

Q

Do you know why this document is redacted?

11:38

11:39
11:39

11:39

24

24

11:38

11:38

13 document, could you tell me the date on which it was

17 copyright release as Exhibit 1134?

11:38

(BY MR. BECKER) Thank you.

23 you?

12

14 revised?

15

22

11:33

11:39

17

11:38

11 Review Draft ASHRAE Standard, Guideline or Addendum.

11:31

Does this document, Exhibit 1141, include the 11:36

14 1135?

11:38

A

Yes.

25
11:39
Page 79

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:39
11:39
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A

This is the Form for Commenting on a Public

1

11:39

2 Review Draft ASHRAE Standard, Guideline or Addendum
3

Q

March 1st, 2004

6

Q

A

January 30th, 2006.

11:34

6

Q

Does this document under section 2,

11 marked as Exhibit 1146 Do you recognize this

13

A

14

Yes

Q

A

Q

11:44

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:44

15 marked as Exhibit 1149. Do you recognize this

11:49

16 document?

11:41

11:44

11:44

17

Yes.

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

19

11:47

This is the Form for Submittal of a Proposed 11:48

A

18

(BY MR BECKER) Could you tell me what this 11:45

18 document is?
19

14

11:44
11:44

11:44

13 (Exhibit 1149 marked for identification.)
11:47

record, this document is Bates number

17

In the first paragraph, in -- in the third

12 standard."

11:44

ASHRAE0001600

11:44

A

11 see in Exhibit 1135, in Exhibit 1148, it says "this

11:40

MR BECKER: And this -- just for the

16

11:43

11:43

10 line down, instead of saying "the standard," like we

11:44

15

11:43

9

11:41

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:49

12 document?

11:43

8 releases that were in Exhibit 1135?

11:46

9 (Exhibit 1146 marked for identification )
Q

11:43

7 "Copyright Release," have the same two copyright

And does this include the same copyright

11:43

Looking at the second page of this document, 11:43

5

11:33

7 release that was in the previous exhibit, 1144?

10

Q

11:36

A

Yes

This is the Form for Commenting on a Public 11:43

4 could you tell me when this document was revised?

11:39

5

A

A

2 Review Draft ASHRAE Standard, Guideline or Addendum.
3

And could you tell me the date on which this 11:37

4 was revised?

8

11:32

11:44

A

This is the Form for Commenting on a Public 11:45

11:44

20 Change to ASHRAE Standard Under Continuous Maintenance 11:41

20 Review Draft, ASHRAE Standard, Guideline or Addendum. 11:45

21

21

Q

Could you -- could you tell me the

11:47

23 corner?

11:43

A

That would have been the date it was revised 11:43

25

Q

Does this document include the same copyright 11:43

Page 82
1 release under section 1 as was in Exhibit 1134?
A

11:45

With the exception of splitting up a

11:41

state that this is Bates number

11:45

ASHRAE0001610.

11:45

24

11:49

24

2

MR. BECKER: For the record, I'll just

22
23

22 significance of the date in the bottom left-hand

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Looking at the back of the 11:45

25 document, could you tell me the date on which this was 11:45
Page 84
1 revised?

11:41

11:45

2

A

January 30th, 2006.

3 sentence, it's exactly the same. There's an "and" in 11:41

3

Q

Does this document, Exhibit 1149, have the

4 1134 between "proposals" and "I understand" -- and "I 11:41

4 same copyright releases as in the previous exhibit,

5 understand" that is not in 1146.

5 1148?

11:42

6 (Exhibit 1147 marked for identification.)
7

Q

11:42

6

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:42

8 marked as Exhibit 1147. This is Bates number

11:42

9 ASHRAE0001604. Do you recognize this document?
10

A

Yes.

11

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

12

A

This is a Continuous Maintenance Submittal

13 form.
14

Q

January 30th, 2006.

17

Q

Does this document include the same two

11:46
11:46

A

Yes.

25

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:46

12

Q

And could you tell me what this document is? 11:46

A

This is the Form for Submittal of a Proposed 11:46

14 Change to an ASHRAE Standard Under Continuous
Q

11:46

11:46

And could you tell me, looking at the bottom 11:46

17 right-hand corner, the date on which this was revised? 11:46

11:42

18

A

March 9th, 2007.

19

Q

And does Exhibit 1150 have the same two

11:43

11:46

20 copyright releases as Exhibit 1135?

11:43

11:43

24

Yes.

11:42

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:43

22 marked as Exhibit 1148. Do you recognize this

A

16

11:43

20 (Exhibit 1148 marked for identification.)

23 document?

9 marked as Exhibit 1150. This is Bates number

15 Maintenance.

11:42

18 copyright -- copyright releases as in Exhibit 1135?

Q

11:42

11:42

A

21

11:45

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:46

11

And could you tell me when this document was 11:42

Yes.

11:45

13

16

A

Yes.

10 ASHRAE0001605. Do you recognize this document?
11:42

11:42

15 revised?

19

11:42

Q

11:45
11:45

11:45

7 (Exhibit 1150 marked for identification.)
8

11:42

A

11:45

21

A

11:46

11:46

With the exception of an "and" that's in

11:47

22 paragraph -- in the second paragraph of 1135, where

11:47

23 it's between "proposals" and "I understand," it's the 11:47

11:43

24 same.
11:43

11:47

25 (Exhibit 1151 marked for identification.)
Page 83

11:47
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Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what has

11:48

3 document?

11:40

11:42

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:42

6

A

This is an Application for Project Committee 11:45

1

MR. BECKER: For the record, I'll note

2

that this is Bates number ASHRAE0001612.

3

2 been marked as Exhibit 1151. Do you recognize this

11:57

Q

11:58

(BY MR. BECKER) Are users of the ASHRAE

4 website required to fill in their name into the box
11:43

11:58

5 that says "Name of whoever is logged in to comment
6 would be entered here"?

11:54

11:57

7 Organizational Representative Membership.

11:47

7

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.

8

11:41

8

THE WITNESS: In order to comment, any

Q

And looking at the bottom left-hand corner,

9 could you tell me the date on which this was revised?
10

A

11

Q

12

October 2009.

Yes.

15

Q

And comparing that copyright release on

11:43

A

They are identical.

Q

Thank you.

17

11:41

(BY MR. BECKER) Could you tell me who checks 11:55

A

11:58

You can't go forward. If you click "I do not 11:51

Q

11:53

If -- does somebody check whatever names are 11:56

18 put in there to make sure that they match with the

11:50

19 person who's submitting the comments?
11:48

20

(BY MR. BECKER) Handing you Exhibit 1152,

11:41

A

11:53

Do you mean can I physically tell if you were 11:58

21 signed in as somebody else and put their name in there? 11:52

11:43 22

Q

Yes.

23

A

I cannot physically tell that.

24

22 Bates number ASHRAE0001616. Do you recognize this
23 document?

Q

11:54

16 agree," you cannot submit a comment.

11:42

11:46

20 (Exhibit 1152 marked for identification.)
Q

11:50

online comment database.

15

11:47

17 Exhibit 1139, can you tell me if they are identical?
19

and hit "I agree" in order to comment in the

14 that box for names?

16 Exhibit 1151 with the copyright release on
18

11:58

13

11:41

11:55

their name as it would appear above that line

12

11:47

A

member of the public would have to enter

11

Comparing the copyright release -- excuse me. 11:40
Is there a copyright release under Exhibit -- 11:45

9

11:59
11:52

10

13 excuse me, section 6 of Exhibit 1151?

21

11:45

11:48

14

Q

And if -- if I went on to the ASHRAE website 11:51

11:49

24

A

Yes.

25

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

11:49

11:56
11:58

25 and I put in my name as just the letter Z and clicked

11:43

11:56
Page 88

Page 86
1

A

This is the ASHRAE Standard Guideline Project 11:44

Q

5

A

6

Q

7

11:47

And could you tell me the date on which this 11:56

4 was revised?

11:57

October 2009.
Comparing the -- excuse me.

10

Q

Comparing the copyright release on section 5 11:56

11:54

11 of Exhibit 1152 with the copyright release from

11:58

12 Exhibit 1151, could you tell me if there are any
The difference is on 1151, it's for an

Q

11:59

11:50
11:56
11:55
11:58

10 agree."
11

Q

11:51
So it might not allow you to enter your full 11:53

A

11:56
Correct. You have to enter whatever it shows 11:56
11:58

15 many -- the coding is such to so many characters.

11:52

16
11:56

19 marked as Exhibit 1153. Do you recognize this

11:54

Q

And where would it show the person's name?

11:57

17

11:56

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:58

20 document?

11:57

There is a name -- where you see "Name of

14 above there, because it's -- you know, it's got so

11:55

17 (Exhibit 1153 marked for identification.)
18

And how does it stop me from proceeding?

A

13

11:56

Thank you.

Q

12 name?

11:52

15 organizational member; and 1152, it's a member.
Q

3

9 characters. That's what I enter there and hit "I

Yes.

16

11:56

8 ends up stop -- it goes to a certain amount of

11:52

A

A

No.

7 mine, it would say Mrs. Stephanie R-E-I-N, is where it 11:51

9

14

A

6 the system generates the letters -- for example, for

11:52

Is there a copyright release at section 5 of 11:59

13 differences between the two?

11:53

2

5 whoever is logged in to comment would be entered here," 11:53

11:58

8 Exhibit 1152?

1 "I agree," would it allow me to proceed?

4

2 Committee Application for Individual Membership.
3

11:56

A

Where you see "Name of whoever is logged in

11:59

18 to comment would be entered here," their name would
19 appear there.
20

11:50

Q

Okay. Does this Exhibit 1153 include a

21 copyright release?

21

A

Yes.

11:51

22

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

23

A

This is how you would enter a comment on the 11:55

A

Yes.

23

Q

And is that the second paragraph on

24 online comment database with entering the -- your name 11:58

24 Exhibit 1153?

25 into that field and "I agree" in order to go forward.

25

11:52

A

Yes.

Page 87

11:56

11:56

22

11:54

11:52

11:56

11:57
11:51

11:54
11:56
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23 (Pages 86 - 89)
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Q

And does this copyright release on

11:52

2 Exhibit 1153 appear identical to the second copyright
3 release on Exhibit 1135?
4

A

1
11:55

11:50

A

2

No.

11:53

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form on

3

that.
Q

11:55

11:56

Other than the fact you can't do the "I,

11:53

4

5 insert name," it starts with "I, hereby," it's the

11:56

5 between copyright releases and copyright assignments?

6 same.

11:50

6

7 (Exhibit 1154 marked for identification.)
8

Q

11:53

9 marked as Exhibit 1154. Do you recognize this
10 document?
11

A

12

Yes.

11:50

11:54
11:56

Q

15 document is?
16

A

11:59

11:54

18 being logged in, because my name appears,
Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Is there any way in which

23

17 releases that we have discussed today?

Q

And is this copyright release identical to

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.
THE WITNESS: Do you mean because their

12:03

20

a different document and put it in there?
Q

12:08

company submitted -- they took language from

12:01

12:03

(BY MR. BECKER) I mean, does ASHRAE believe 12:06

23 that it owns the copyright in contributions to

11:56

12:08

24 Standard 90.1 or to the 1993 ASHRAE handbook by virtue 12:05

11:58

25 of any copyright assignments or releases, other than

11:59

Q

Ms. Reiniche, do you know when this copyright 11:50

3

A

12:00
Page 92

A

No.

It would have been when we started the online 11:54

3

Q

And does ASHRAE believe that it owns

5 sorry, around 2008.
Q

9

A

Yes.

10

Q

11:54
11:58

7

10

11:55

A

11:51

13 blank copyright releases that ASHRAE has produced to

11:55

legal conclusions.

11:57

17 Standards 90.1 or for the 1993 ASHRAE handbook that

11:53

MR. BECKER: I think that we can stop
for lunch here, if that works for the rest of

13

you.
at 12:01.

19

11:53

19

at 13:03.

20

Q

21

Q

11:55

Is ASHRAE aware of any copyright releases

22 that have not been produced to Public Resource?

11:57
11:50

13:05

A

No.

11:54

24

Q

Is ASHRAE aware of any copyright assignments 11:57

13:02

13:03

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, we're back on 13:03

21 the record now.

13:05

Did you have anything that you had remembered 13:06

23 or wanted to add to prior testimony today?

23

25 that have not been produced to Public Resource?

13:04

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record

22

12:06

12:07

17 (Exhibit 1155 marked for identification.)
18

20 produced.

12:05

16 (Lunch recess.)

11:50

I'm not aware of anything that has not been

12:01
12:03

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

18 have not been produced to Public Resource?
A

12:08
12:09

12:01

12

15

Are you aware of any other copyright releases 11:53

16 that ASHRAE uses in order to get copyright for

12:05

insofar as the last few questions called for

14

11:50

No.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object

11

Ms. Reiniche, I will represent to you that we 11:59

12 have now produced before you as exhibits all of the

15

6 those copyright releases that we have discussed today? 12:01

9

11:54

14 Public Resource through discovery.

12:09

4 copyright in contributions to Standards 90.1 or to the 12:02

8

11:53

-- in order to gain access?

12:08

5 1993 handbook by virtue of any other means, other than 12:06

And for the online comment database, has it

8 click "I agree" --

11:56

11:57

7 always required individuals to enter their name and

11

12:04

2

4 comment database, which was around 2005 -- no, I'm
6

1 those that we have discussed today?

11:57

2 release was first added to the ASHRAE website?

12:05

12:04

Page 90
1

11:58

12:09

21

11:55

24 the copyright release in Exhibit 1153?

11:56

14 someone who contributed text to Standards 90.1 or to

22

Yes.

Yes.

Q

11:51

19

11:54

A

A

11:59

THE WITNESS: No.

18

11:57

22

25

11:50

And does this document, Exhibit 1154, include 11:59

21 a copyright release?

outside the scope.

11:52
11:56

16 rights to ASHRAE, other than through the copyright

11:53

19 Mrs. Stephanie C. R-E-I-N.

11:51

15 the 1993 ASHRAE handbook would have given copyright

This is the -- where you would go to log in

17 at the online comment database, and it shows me as

20

13

11:54

11:58

(BY MR. BECKER) Do you see a difference
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object insofar as it's

12

(BY MR. BECKER) Could you tell me what this 11:53

11:57

9 between copyright releases and copyright assignments?
11

11:58

Bates number ASHRAE0022827.

14

THE WITNESS: No.
Q

10

MR. BECKER: For the record, this is

13

8

11:54

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

7

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 11:50

(BY MR. BECKER) Does ASHRAE see a difference 11:51

24

A

No.

25
11:51
Page 91

Q

Thank you.

13:09

13:03
13:04
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1

Now, Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing you what's

13:05

2 been marked as Exhibit 1155. It's Bates number

13:09

1 publication. If they need to make more changes, it
2 will go back to the public review process.

3 ASHRAE0001598. So, Ms. Reiniche, my sincere apologies. 13:07

3

4 I had missed this one last document that pertains to

13:04

4 it's the standards committee that would begin drafting 13:05

5 the subject that we were discussing prior to lunch.

13:08

5 the document; is that correct?

6

Can you tell me if you recognize this

7 document?

6

13:02

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

And can you tell me what this document is?

13:05

10

A

This is an Application for Membership on

13:09

13:04

11 ASHRAE Standard or Guideline Project Committee.
Q

So in this process that you were describing, 13:01

A

13:08

No. It's the project committee that drafts

7 the document.

13:04

8

12

Q

13:06
13:08

13:01

And can you tell me if this document contains 13:03

Q

13:09

13:01

And the process that you just described, is

13:01

9 that the process that's used for ASHRAE Standard 90.1? 13:06
10

A

It would have when it was started. The

13:02

11 difference -- there's a little difference now because
12 it's on continuous maintenance.

13:04

13:06

13 a copyright assignment?

13:06

13

Q

And what -- what does that difference mean?

14

A

Yes, under number 7.

13:08

14

A

The difference is the membership is on a

15

Q

Okay. And could you tell me if after seeing 13:09

16 this document if that changes any of your answers
17 earlier today?

13:08
13:00

15 four-year rotating cycle, so one -- basically, roughly 13:04

13:01

16 one-third of the committee would roll off every four

13:08

17 years, so they're not -- everyone is not coming off at 13:01

13:05

18

A

No, it does not.

13:05

18 the same time. And new members will be added, so

19

Q

Thank you.

13:07

19 they're added continuously, typically once a year.

20

Ms. Reiniche, could you walk me through at a 13:07

21 high level how ASHRAE standard -- standards are
22 created?
23

A

13:00

20

Then instead of the full draft going out,

13:04
13:07

13:02

21 their addenda are issued to go out for public review

13:07

22 and comment. They'd either come from stuff that has

13:03

23 been generated by the committee or through a continuous 13:03

Sure. So it starts with a title, purpose and 13:03

24 scope being submitted for consideration to be approved. 13:08

24 maintenance change proposal. And then the rest of the 13:05

25 process would follow the same way.
25 That would have been approved by the procedures, policy 13:03
Page 94
1 interpretation subcommittee, then forwarded to the

13:07

2 standards committee for approval. Depending on what
3 year, it would have had to go to tech council, but

13:00

13:02

13:06

1

Q
A

Page 96

And the -- who drafts the title, purpose and 13:03

2 scope?
3

13:07

13:07
The title, purpose and scope can be -- a new 13:02

4 always ends up at our board of directors to approve the 13:00

4 one can be submitted by anyone. I could submit one;

5 title, purpose and scope for a new standard project

5 you could submit one. The technical committee within

6 committee or guideline.
7

13:03

13:07

Then after that, you would do a call for

9 applications, and then the committee chair would

13:05

13:01

7
13:02

13:02

Q

And is the technical committee, are they

8 volunteers or are they employees of ASHRAE?
9

A

Volunteers.

10 recommend to the standards project liaison subcommittee 13:08

10

Q

11 and standards committee their membership.

11 volunteers, correct?

13:07

And the project committee as well is

13:01

And then the committee would -- would begin

13:06

13 working on drafting the document. Then they would

13:00

14 approve it for public review. And then depending on

13:04

15 what type of committee, would dictate how much more
16 oversight. So standards project liaison subcommittee

13:08
13:03

13:00
13:01

13:03

12

A

That's correct.

13:04

13

Q

How are ASHRAE employees involved in the

15

A

13:04

18 out for public review. It goes out for comment.

13:01

18 until now.

19

13:05

19

13:07

20 have been proposed, a staff member would -- would

21 commenters have to indicate their resolution status.

13:00

22 And then the committee needs to decide whether or not
23 changes need to be made to the standard -- to the

24 document based on the comments received, or if not -25 if not, it goes for -- they'll approve it for

13:03

13:06
13:09

13:02

Q
A

13:05

In the -- are you talking from now or are you 13:01

16 talking about when it was first started?
17

20 responds to all the commenters. And then the

13:01

14 creation and maintenance of ASHRAE Standard 90.1?

17 or the SPLS liaison would -- would say it's okay to go 13:06
The committee reviews all the comments,

13:07

6 ASHRAE is usually how it's submitted.

13:09

8 members, people would submit the membership

12

13:05

Let's -- let's go from when it first started 13:07
13:09

So when the title, purpose and scope would

21 review that to make sure it's in the correct format

13:01
13:03
13:05

22 and, if there is some questions, would actually send it 13:09
23 back to whoever had proposed it to make -- to correct

13:01

24 it or say if they're okay, if we met their intent, and 13:05
25 then send it forward to -- it probably when -- 19 --

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1 90.1 was developed in, I think, 1975. They probably

13:05

1

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) And by "the codes," are you 13:18

2 didn't have all the subcommittees that we have now, but 13:01

2 referring to the standards that have been enacted into 13:19

3 would have went through the approving bodies up through 13:04

3 regulation?

4 the board that way.

4

5

Q

13:07

And would there have been a project committee 13:07

6 as well for -- for the original 90.1?

13:09

7

A

Yes.

8

Q

And during that process, did staff members

9 draft any of the text for 90.1?

13:09

13:15

A

From the beginning?

11

Q

Yeah.

12

A

13:10
13:13

A

THE WITNESS: I'm sure there are. I

13:14
13:15

12

And would staff members have contributed any 13:12
13:18

In the same way, either in the discussions,

18 if there's a conflict or stuff doesn't -- or through

13:16

13

people apply for membership.

13:19

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Does ASHRAE draw -- draft

15 model laws or ordinances?
16

13:10

A

18

13:17

Q

Where we would start with the drafting for

Q

And does ASHRAE have any record of that?

21

A

If it was done -- it would have been done via 13:17

13:12

20

A

13:16

13:11

Does ASHRAE oversee the drafting of model

19 laws and ordinances?

20

13:12

13:16

We submit comments on things that are coming 13:18

21 out through -- through -- through the -- through

13:10

22 email, at the time email started. 90.1 started before 13:10

22 Congress or that have been posted in the Federal

23 the Internet, so if the -- if -- if the records still

23 Register; things like that.

13:15

24 existed, it would have been in paper format.
25

Q

2

A

Q

2

13:16

3 building sciences. We have a long mission statement,
5

13:12

6 purposes in -- in developing these standards?

13:15

13:14

3 want stuff that's been done through consensus process

I would say yes.

13:13

8

Q

And how does ASHRAE advance the building

13:16

8

Q

I would -- well, I would say through the

13:10

When you say "you want stuff that's been done 13:15

10 sentence?

13:12

11 development of the -- the standards that affect, you

13:15

11

A

13:18

12

Q

ASHRAE. Okay.

13

13:12

13:15
13:15

And why is it that ASHRAE wants things that

14 there's other things that we create, courses and books 13:15

14 have been done through the consensus process?

15 that are outside the standards development process that 13:18

15

16 we do as well.

16 participating in the development of those documents,

17

Q

13:11

And why is it that individuals who are not

A

Because the -- the proper experts are

17 it's -- it's been vetted in the industry, people have

13:10

13:10

13:14

ASHRAE.

12 know, the energy efficiency of buildings, indoor air
13 quality, indoor environmental quality. I'm sure

13:17

13:14

9 through the consensus process," who is "you" in that

13:19

13:19

13:13

5 Another reason may be to make it consistent language
7 others; that type of thing.

A

A

13:11

The purpose is to -- to -- typically, you

6 with what's already out there in our standards or

13:18

7

10

A

4 and has the expertise, so that may be a reason.

13:16

Does ASHRAE's mission statement reflect its

9 sciences?

13:15

And what's the purpose of submitting comments 13:16

1 regulation as you're describing?

13:14

It's to -- the purpose is to advance the

4 but that's essentially what it is.

Q

13:12

25 in -- for things that are coming out in legislation and 13:19
13:11
Page 98
Page 100

What is ASHRAE's purpose in creating these

1 standards?

24

13:10

13:11

13:14

17 the law, is that what you mean?

13:13

19 the editing and review of the material.

just -- that's not a question I ask when

14

13:16

13:19

13:19

13:13

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

11

13:12

16 text to subsequent versions of 90.1?
17

13:13

8 in the ASHRAE development -- standard development
10

13 because of conformity and -- or conflicts or things
Q

13:19

Are there any other reasons why -- why

9 process?

Not unless they were making the edits to --

15

Q

7 individuals who are not employees of ASHRAE participate 13:16

10

14 like that.

That and -- and the international codes, the 13:14

5 codes spelled by NFPA, IAPMO.
6

13:01

A

13:14

13:18
13:11

13:14
13:17

13:10

18 employees of ASHRAE participate in the standard design 13:16

18 had a chance to comment. We've tried to reach

19 process?

19 resolution so, you know, an equal amount of people are 13:17

13:19

20

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

21

THE WITNESS: I would say because for

13:13
13:14

22

various reasons it could affect their

23

company. Maybe they want to make the world a

24

better place, maybe it affects the codes. It

25

varies. It depends on the individuals.

20 unhappy.
21

Q

13:13

13:10

And you referred to an interest in expertise 13:14

22 in the process of drafting legislation and regulation. 13:18

13:18
13:10

23 Does that also reflect ASHRAE's interest in -- in
24 having expertise reflected in that process?

13:13

25

13:16

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

Page 99

13:13
13:17
13:19
Page 101

26 (Pages 98 - 101)
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1

THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you

2

mean.

3

Q

13:11

(BY MR. BECKER) Okay. Just a moment ago,

4 you said the purpose is to -- "typically, you want

13:16

5 stuff that's been done through consensus process and

13:10

6 has the expertise, so that may be a reason." So what
7 did you mean by "has expertise" there?
8

A

13:13

13:13

13:18

13:19
13:19

3 90.2 and a 90.4, because they cover -- it's energy

13:19

4 efficiency, but they cover a certain building type.
5

Q

13:19

And when referring to these standards, if

13:19

6 they were referred to in, say, regulation, would it

13:19

7 need to say ASHRAE 90.1 or could the regulation simply 13:19

So if you're writing, for example, something 13:12

9 on how to create a widget, you want the people that

1 the next number for a standard. There are a couple
2 when they're tied together; for example, 90.1 has a

13:12

13:14

10 know how to create a widget, the information coming

8 say 90.1 and would people know what that was referring 13:19
9 to?

13:19

13:18

10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

11 from that versus someone who has -- in legislation may 13:11

11

MR. FEE: Same objection.

12 have a marketing degree that doesn't understand how to 13:16

12

THE WITNESS: If you're within ASHRAE,

13 create that widget.

13

you will know ASHRAE 90.1. If you just said

14

90.1, I would probably want you to say

14

Q

13:18

And so for air-conditioning or heating, you

13:19

15 would want somebody who has expertise in that area,

13:13

13:19

13:19
13:19
13:19
13:19

15

ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 90.1 and the year, so

16 rather than necessarily a legislator or a regulator who 13:17

16

you know which document they're talking

17 doesn't have expertise in that area; is that correct?

17

about.

18

Q

18

A

13:11

We would want the information to come through 13:15

13:19
13:19

13:19

(BY MR. BECKER) Would that be the correct

19 stuff that had been done by the expert to be reflected, 13:17

19 way to cite the ASHRAE 90.1 standard?

20 that would be correct.

20

MR. FEE: Objection, form.

21

THE WITNESS: I would include the title.

21

Q

13:11

And why is that important to have it come

22 from an expert?
23

A

13:12

13:14

Because they're the ones that understand how 13:15

25 or how to make something more energy efficient; that

1 type of thing.
2

Q

13:13

4
5

writing. But I don't think you can do it
have to have some knowledge.
Q

13:20

(BY MR. BECKER) Yeah. So people should say 13:20
13:20
Page 104

13:19
13:12

(BY MR. BECKER) So for -- to make it

THE WITNESS: They should say

13:20
13:20

ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 90.1, energy efficiency

4

for -- oh, I just lost the blank -- my -- for

13:20

5

buildings -- not -- except for residential

13:20

buildings or something.

7

13:15

13:16

Q

8
13:13

10 concrete for Standard 90.1, is that a standard that

MR. FEE: Same objection.

2

13:19

just with -- just looking at something. You

9

Q

6

THE WITNESS: It depends on what you're

8

makes it clear.

24

13:15

13:20

Referring back to Exhibit 1155, on the back 13:21

9 of that exhibit, Bates number ASHRAE0001599, it refers 13:21
10 to interest categories; is that correct?

13:21

11

A

That's correct.

12 its contents were and what should be enacted into law? 13:16

12

Q

And it has a -- an interest category that

13

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

13 includes user; is that correct?

14

THE WITNESS: You need to understand
how -- all of 90.1. It does help to have

16

or not something needs -- the technical

18

expertise is needed to go into the law, I

19

would still venture on the side of yes.

20

Q

13:12

technical expertise in engineering. Whether

17

13:19

13:18

A

A

That's correct.

13:22

Q

And within the user interest category is a

A

That's correct.

13:13

18

Q

And that's for a representative of a

13:17

19 government agency; is that correct?

(BY MR. BECKER) How does one identify a

13:10
13:14

13:11

Each has a number, and so it's just

14

17

22 particular naming convention that ASHRAE uses for its
24

13:22

13:22

13:19

13:22

13:22
13:22
13:22

20

A

That would be correct.

21

Q

And this document by the -- the date on the 13:22

13:22

22 bottom left-hand corner, does that mean that this
23 document was last revised on March 5th, 2001?

13:13

13:22

16 subcategory for a user government; is that correct?

13:11

21 particular ASHRAE standard? Is there -- is there a
23 standards?

13:21

15

13:15

13:20

13:20

(BY MR. BECKER) Thank you.

11 would require technical expertise in order to know what 13:19

15

13:20
13:20

3

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

7

23

1
13:17

6

The first reference you make as well still

13:10
25 ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 90.1?
Page 102

Is there technical expertise that's necessary 13:14

3 in order to understand that subject?

13:20

22

24 to make that product or how to construct that building 13:17

13:19

13:19

24

A

Yes.

25 sequential in number; whatever number we are last at is 13:16
25
Page 103

Q

Thank you.

13:22
13:22

13:22
13:22
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1

And if you refer to Exhibit 1151, please.

13:22

1 with the Department of Energy with senior leadership

2

A

Okay.

13:23

3

Q

This also has, under section 5, a listing of 13:23

2 within ASHRAE.
3

13:24

13:29

And document 1157 appears to be a draft,

13:22

4 check boxes for interest categories; is that correct? 13:23

4 because -- since it's not signed, I can't say it's the 13:21

5

A

That's correct.

5 official one, but a Draft Memorandum of Understanding

13:24

6

Q

And for SSPC 90.1, those categories include 13:23

6 Between the Department of Energy and ASHRAE.

13:27

13:23

7 compliance, designer, general interest, industry, user 13:23

7

8 and utility; is that correct?

8 the Exhibit 1157, was the attachment to Exhibit 1156?

13:23

9

A

That's correct.

10

Q

And if you turn to the next page, Bates

13:23

9
13:23

11 number ASHRAE0001614, that includes a -- the
12 definitions of these interest categories; is that
13 correct?

13:23

15

13:23

Q

And for compliance, would that category

16 include regulators?
17

A

19

Q

21

A

13:23
13:24

18
13:24
13:24

21

13:24

Yes.

A

Could you tell me what -- what is the purpose 13:22

The applicant suggests which interest

A

13:20

Its -- its basic purpose is to talk about

20 goals.

Do you mean who decides which interest

Q

13:25
13:27

13:21

19 ways that we're going to work together or towards

13:24

24

I'll -- I'll represent that -- that it is

17 with ASHRAE?

13:24

23

Q

13:24

13:28
And does ASHRAE have a history of working

22 together with the Department of Energy?

13:24

13:25

13:27

23

A

Yes.

24

13:24

25 category they belong in, then the chair of the -- of

Q

How long has ASHRAE been working with the

13:21

13:24
25 Department of Energy?
Page 106

1 the project committee will review that information,

13:21

13:27
Page 108

13:23

1

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

2 look at all their applicable paperwork, and then decide 13:26

2

THE WITNESS: I would probably say since

3 if that's correct.

3

at least 90.1 has been as part of -- adopted

4

into EPAct as the minimum energy efficiency

5

for commercial buildings.

6

Q

4

13:29

They may say no and put them in a different

13:21

5 interest category. And then SPLS will look at that

13:24

6 recommendation, and they could look at the same

13:20

7 paperwork and determine that they're still not in the
8 correct interest category and move them into a
9 different one.
10

Q

13:22

A

Yes.

14 identification.)
15

Q

13:28

Q

13:24

I would -- I want to say '99, but I'm -- I

13:32

13:36

What's the -- the -- what -- what is the

13:38

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.
THE WITNESS: To -- to advance the
mission of ASHRAE, which is, you know,

15

advance the art of building sciences.

16

13:23

Q

13:30
13:32

(BY MR. BECKER) And for -- for Exhibit

18 the recipients for this email; is that correct?

13:34

19

A

That's correct.

20

13:26

13:37

13:27 17 ASHRAE -- excuse me, Exhibit 1156, you're listed among 13:39

13:23
13:24

13:32
13:38

14

13:38

Q

And you're listed among the recipients for

13:39

21 the -- the email that's further down in the chain in -- 13:32

21

A

Yes.

22

Q

And could you tell me what these documents

A

(BY MR. BECKER) Do you have any idea when -- 13:23

13

13:21

18 Exhibit 1157 is Bates number ASHRAE0026229.

24

13:26

12

(BY MR. BECKER) I'd like to hand you what's 13:21

20 Ms. Reiniche?

13:24

11 purpose of ASHRAE's work with the Department of Energy? 13:33

13:28

17 Exhibit 1156 is Bates number ASHRAE0026227. And then

23 are?

10

13:20

13:27

Do you recognize these documents,

A

13:22

13:21

9 need to check.

16 been marked as 1 -- Exhibits 1156 and Exhibits 1157.

19

8

And so has it happened that people have been 13:28

13 (Exhibit 1156 and Exhibit 1157 marked for

13:22

7 approximately when that would have been?

13:26

11 moved from one interest category to a different one?
12

13:29

16 of the Department of Energy Memorandum of Understanding 13:24

And who makes the determination for these

22 category a person belongs in?

Q

15

13:23

20 particular interest categories?

13:24

13:25

14 the -- the attachment.

If you -- if you include them as federal

18 officials, then yes.

13:20

Well, I would say it probably is the exhibit, 13:20

12 is the same one.
13

That's correct.

13:22

11 says DOEMOU.doc on it, I would have to assume that it

13:23

A

A

And does it appear to you that this draft,

10 but since the document doesn't have a -- a thing that

13:23

14

Q

13:27
13:21

22 on that exhibit; is that correct?

13:38

23

13:23
Document 1156 is an email conversation

13:26

25 regarding a meeting that's -- that was going to occur

A

That's correct.

13:39

24

Q

On Exhibit 1157, section 2, it refers to

13:38

25 promoting and supporting implementation of ASHRAE
13:34
13:21
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1 standards through training programs, including

13:37

1 the Department of Energy?

2 self-directed learning, building code interaction and

13:30

2

A

No.

3

Q

And section 10 refers to "Advancing and

3 ASHRAE chapter oriented training.
4

What is the Department of Energy's role in

5 that?
6

13:33

A

13:36

13:31
13:32
13:34

4 supporting the professional development of DOE

They -- Department of Energy provides

13:39

13:36

5 personnel by facilitating membership, attendance, and

13:38

13:39

6 active participation at the local and society levels of 13:33

7 training not only ASHRAE, but other code bodies' codes, 13:33

7 ASHRAE, especially as a member of technical committees 13:37

8 so it would be supported through software development, 13:30

8 and standard project committees, and by providing a

9 maybe at the DOE level, they give trainings on what's
10 in 90.1; things like that.
11

Q

13:35

10

Does the Department of Energy provide funding 13:33

12 to ASHRAE?

13:37

A

No.

14

Q

Does the Department of Energy provide any

13:37

13:36

13:37
A

They're talking about research publication.

13:31

13 If the DOE does research, they're publishing it

15 funds to ASHRAE?
A

13:33

What kind of publication is this referring

11 to?
12

13

16

9 venue for publication of research and practice."

13:30

13:30

13:34

14 somewhere. It's not referring to standards.

13:34

13:30

13:37

15

17 Department of Energy pays their membership fees to

13:32

Q

Does ASHRAE publish DOE research?

16

I suppose if someone is a -- a member and the 13:38

A

Not that I'm aware of.

13:30

17

Q

With regards to section 13, do you know what 13:32

13:36

18 ASHRAE to be a member of ASHRAE, then yes, but it goes 13:34 18 they are referring to with regards to counter-terrorism 13:38
19 to membership.
20

Q

13:37

19 design features?

On the second page of Exhibit 1157,

13:36

21 subsection 5 says, "Cooperating in promoting of

24
25

What is that referring to?
A

13:36

A

No.

21

13:32

22 ANSI/ASHRAE standards adoption in the International
23 Standards Organization (ISO) standards."

13:35

20

13:30

Q

Do you know what -- under -- under section

23 Innovation Cluster Initiative is?

13:39

24

13:32

13:34

22 14, the DOE Energy Efficient Building Systems Regional 13:38
A

13:35

I don't think that exists anymore, but

13:30

25 there's been a collaborative where they've worked
That must have been -- that would have been a 13:35
Page 110

13:32
Page 112

1 new thing added. The Department of Energy hasn't done 13:37

1 together, and they just -- they talk about research and 13:34

2 anything that I'm aware of to promote the adoption of

2 things like that.

13:30

3 ASHRAE -- ANSI/ASHRAE standards in ISO.
4

Q

And for section 8, where it refers to

13:32

5 "Cooperating and promotion of ANSI/ASHRAE standards
7

A

13:30

13:36

That could be supporting proposals that would 13:33

8 have been submitted to adopt 90.1 in -- in the

10 and they would have provided supporting testimony,
12

Q

13:37

Was the Memorandum of Understanding Between

5 both ASHRAE and the Department of Energy?
6

13:37

A
Q

13:34

13:30
How would you characterize the relationship

13:31

13:32

9 between the Department of Energy and ASHRAE?
10

A

I mean, they work -- we work together.

12 projects, but I mean some things.

13:35
13:30

13 supporting testimony, probably," is that the Department 13:33

13

14 of Energy that would provide that?

14 Department of Energy would testify on behalf of ASHRAE 13:33

15

A

A -- a staff member from the Department of

16 Energy.
17

Q

13:36
13:37

Okay. Are there any other ways that ASHRAE, 13:31

19 promoting these standards adoption in building codes?
A

I'm not aware of ANSI promoting standards

21 adoption in building codes, other than -- it's an

You mentioned that someone from the

13:30

15 in terms of getting the Standard 90.1 adopted as a

13:38

16 building code. How does ASHRAE benefit from having

13:30

18 ANSI and the Department of Energy have cooperated in
20

Q

13:34
13:32

11 That's probably on -- not all -- not all of these

13:30

When you say "they would have provided

13:31

I need to go back and check to see if it was 13:37

7 signed.
8

13:39

9 international code, because that's the federal minimum, 13:33
11 probably.

Q

4 the DOE and ASHRAE, Exhibit 1157, eventually signed by 13:34

13:38

6 adoption in building codes," what does that refer to?

3

13:39
13:33

13:30
13:34

17 90.1 endorsed by the DOE?
18
19

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the
characterization of prior testimony.

13:35
13:36

20

THE WITNESS: They don't testify on

21

behalf of ASHRAE. They testify on behalf of

22 ANSI/ASHRAE standard going through their process. They 13:39 22

13:38

13:32

the Department of Energy.

13:30
13:31

13:34

23 don't go to building codes. I can't think of anything 13:31

23

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Excuse me.

24 else with the Department of Energy.

24

A

So the benefit is then the IECC and 90.1 can 13:36

25

Q

13:36

25 be the same. So it's a -- it's the benefit to having
Anything else with regards to just ASHRAE and 13:38
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13:35
13:35
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1 a -- one code.

1 within ASHRAE?

13:39

13:43

2

Q

And are the IECC and Standard 90.1 the same? 13:32

2

A

Yes.

3

A

They are not exactly the same.

3

Q

And is that located in Washington, D.C.?

4

Q

And how do they differ?

4

A

Yes.

5

A

I would have to look at the versions and the 13:32

5

Q

And what is -- why is it that ASHRAE has a

13:36
13:39

6 comparisons. In some instances, 90.1 would be more
7 stringent; in other, IECC.
8

Q

13:35
13:30

A

They have a different process. The IECC,

11 while it's a consensus process, is not an ANSI

8

A

12 consensus process, so it's comparing apples to oranges. 13:49

12

13

What does ASHRAE do to educate governments

15

A

13:46

14

13:49

break.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

17

13:53

at 13:56.

18 and things like that.

18

Q

Q

13:44

And are there particular staff people who

20 talk to staff members on the hill?

20

A

Yes.

22

Q

And what individuals are these?

23

A

Mark Ames and Doug Read. And Jeff Littleton 13:45

Q

13:40

A

A

90.1 policy committee? You mean on the

Q

Project committee, excuse me.

23

A

Yes.

24

Q

They are?

25
And you say ASHRAE has leadership that talks 13:49
Page 114

A

There is a staff person on there, yes.

13:49

13:42

The -- it -- it could be Jeff, it could be

1

13:45

13:56
13:56

13:56

22

13:41

1 to staff on the hill. Is that Jeff Littleton?
2

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, are you aware 13:56

21 project committee?

21

25

13:56

13:56

19 if DOE employees are on the 90.1 policy committee?

13:45

13:47

24 might talk to some, too.

13:44

13:44

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record

17 what standards we have, certification programs, classes 13:44
19

13:44

13:44

at 13:44.

16

13:49

13:44

13:44

15 (Recess taken.)

It has a staff person and/or leadership talk 13:42

16 to the staff on the hill about what our process is,

13:44

MR. BECKER: All right. Let's take a

13

Q

14 and government officials about its work?

13:44

So they can -- it's easier to talk to people 13:44

9 on the hill. It's been there as long as I've been
11

13:45

13:43

6 separate department for government affairs that's

10 there.

13:41

13:43

13:43

7 located in Washington, D.C.?

13:30

On balance, would you characterize the IECC

9 as being more stringent than ASHRAE 90.1 or vice versa? 13:34
10

13:43

13:56
13:56
13:56
13:56
Page 116

Q

And have DOE employees been on the 90.1

2 project committee -- committee in the past?

13:53
13:57

3 whoever is the president for that given -- given

13:40

3

A

Yes.

4 society year or vice president that society year. It

13:43

4

Q

Okay. And so DOE employees provide -- they

13:59
13:50

5 depends on the year, it depends on who they're talking 13:47

5 contribute to the development of 90.1; is that correct? 13:50

6 to.

6

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

7

THE WITNESS: They participate in the

7

13:42
Q

And what are Mr. Ames' and Mr. Read's

8 positions at ASHRAE?
9

A

13:42

13:47

Well, Mr. -- Mark's title is senior manager

13:54

8
9

13:49

process. I'm not aware of any draft
language.

13:55
13:57

13:50

10 of government affairs. Doug's title was director. He 13:46

10 (Exhibit 1158 marked for identification.)

11 has retired.

11

12

Q

13:43

And was -- was Doug's -- Doug Read's title

13 just director or director of government affairs?

13:46

13:51

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

12 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1158. This is a

13:49

A

Director of government affairs.

13:42

15

Q

Are there other employees of ASHRAE who work 13:48

14 "Marketing Task Force Report."

16 with -- or who did work with Mr. Ames and Mr. Read on

13:52

13:53

13 document with Bates number ASHRAE0005856. It's labeled 13:50

14

17 government affairs?

Q

13:43

13:48

13:58

15

A

Okay.

16

Q

Are you familiar with this document,

17 Ms. Reiniche?

13:50
13:53

13:55

They have a secretary -- or an administrative 13:41

18

A

Yes.

19 assistant that works there. She doesn't talk to people 13:46

19

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

13:50

20 on the hill. And they have a new person there, Jim

20

A

This is a document that would have been

13:53

18

A

21 Scarborough. He deals with local.
22

Q

Is that a local government that he works --

23 deals with?

13:48

13:42
13:40

21 presented to the project committee on priorities -- on 13:54
22 trying to get things out in the marketplace.
23

13:43

24

A

Yeah, the grassroots chapters within ASHRAE. 13:44

25

Q

So is government affairs its own department

13:59

Q

24 what Chris Mathis's position is at ASHRAE?

25
13:49
Page 115

A

13:56

And could you tell me what -- do you know
He is not a staff member at ASHRAE.

13:53
13:56
13:50
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1

Q

Oh, really. Who is Chris Mathis?

13:52

1 et cetera, that was considered an obstacle?

2

A

He's an ASHRAE member.

13:55

2

3

Q

Okay. And is -- what was the purpose of

4 creating this document?
6

THE WITNESS: Just to tell -- inform

7

people of where they were on these priorities

8

for marketing.

9

Q

13:59

13 wouldn't been -- wouldn't have been a -- a committee
Q

13:51

9

This would have been a -- a separate ASHRAE

13:58

A

An ad hoc or something like that.

13:53

18

Q

And is it typical to have individuals who are 13:56

14:07

understand.
Q

14:00

14:03

14:06

(BY MR. BECKER) And is that something that

13 you know from your work at ASHRAE?
A

14:07

15 done one complete overhaul in the formatting.
Q

18

A

14:04

And what are they referring to by

14:00
14:04

They're probably talking about the fact that 14:00

19 not employees of ASHRAE who are on marketing committees 13:59 19 not all states abide by it. They don't -- there's a
20 for ASHRAE?
21

A

In any ad hoc committee, we have members

13:58

22 on -- on those committees. It's not typically just
23 ASHRAE staff.
24

Q

25
14:01
Page 118

14:00

2 architects, engineers and building officials."

2

Then as a -- subpoints under that, it says, 14:00

8

A
Q

14:00

A

14:01

14

Q

9
14:01

14:01
14:01

16 partnership activities underway (training)."
Is that referring to the train-the-trainer

19

A

20

Q

14

14:01

16

What is it about the format, printing,

A
Q

14:03

14:06

And what is the -- the purpose of ASHRAE's

14:08

14:06

To market the ASHRAE products and classes and 14:06
14:00

Does that include marketing the standards

14:02

14:04

A

Yes.

Q

And why was it that the marketing department 14:09

14:02 21

A

14:06
14:00

I don't know. That's a -- was a decision

14:04

22 made by -- it would have been Jeff Littleton and
23 probably the board ExCom.

14:02

25 beauty, readability, editing, style, images, voice,

Q

20 had been dissolved?

14:02

14:02

Q

14:00

19

21 number ASHRAE005865, it says "Obstacles Recognized."

24

We had a marketing department, then they

18

14:01

Yes.

A

17 themselves?

14:01

On the third-to-last page, marked Bates

14:03

Does ASHRAE now have a marketing department? 14:08

15 things like that.

14:01

No, the train-the-trainer sessions.

A

Below that, "Good news! ASHRAE has approved 14:07

13 marketing department?

14:01

18 sessions or is that referring to something else?

23

14:05

10 dissolved it and moved them under, and now they're
12

On the next page it says, "Expand the reach 14:01

22 Do you see that?

And it says, "ASHRAE's history of marketing

11 starting back up a marketing section.

14:01

15 of the standard," and then a subpoint, it says, "DOE
17

14:04
14:02

Q

8

14:01

I would have to check, because this would

14:00

14:02

4
6

And do you know how ASHRAE and DOE were

13 have been when it was started.

ASHRAE 90.1 or something that's deemed to

7 funding to establish a marketing department!!!"

11 partnering to provide these training sessions?
12

A

5 successes."

14:01

It's to train people to teach others about

9 90.1.
10

Just to clarify, when you say "older versions 14:08
Page 120

3 comply, like the IECC, an older version of the IECC.
14:00

14:00

Do you know what these train-the-trainer

Q

1 of the code," you mean older versions of ASHRAE 90.1?

14:00

4 "Underway! ASHRAE and DOE partnership to bring

7 sessions are?

14:08

24 version of 90.1 is more energy efficient than the last. 14:02

14:01

1 Priority (#2). Increase the use of the standard by

6

14:00
14:04

23 within two years of the determination that the newest

14:05

With regards to the fifth page of Bates

5 train-the-trainer sessions to the Chapters!"

14:07

21 when they're supposed -- when, according to EPAct,
22 they're supposed to be adopting the latest version

14:01

25 number ASHRAE0005859, it says, "Actions on each

3

14:02

20 lot of states that are on older versions of the code

13:54

14:07

Yes, we have since -- since this, and we have 14:00

17 "enforcement of EPAct" there?

17

14:04

changed the chapter organization just to make

11

16

13:52

14:00

it flow better and easier for the reader to

14

13:53

16 committee?

one column to two columns. We would have

12

13:57

13:58

14:09

the formatting, we just changed -- went from

10

13:51

There must have been a marketing committee,

after this that we -- just the readability,

8

12 because there was a marketing task force, but it

15

14:07

THE WITNESS: Well, it would have been

7

13:51

13:55

14:02

14:03

6

13:58

(BY MR. BECKER) Is there some kind of a

14 within 90.1.

was designated for.

5

13:52

10 marketing committee that he was part of?
A

leaves the scope of the topics this witness

4

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

11

3

13:56

13:59

5

14:06

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object, insofar as this

24

14:02

Q

And do you know why it was brought back?

25

14:02

A

That was another decision that was made by

Page 119

14:06

14:09
14:02
14:06
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1 Jeff and the board ExCom.

14:05

2 (Exhibit 1159 marked for identification.)
3

Q

1

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 14:06

4 marked as Exhibit 1159. Do you recognize this
5 document?
6

A

9

I've not seen it labeled like this, but I've 14:06

about marketing that you think falls within
the scope of the topics that Ms. Reiniche was

11

designated for?

18

14:06

14
14:06

adoption and use of the code 90.1.

17

14:07

keep the questioning focused on that, then.

21

Q

A

20

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, do you have

No.

14:17

14:11

Do you know what that statement was in
A

Q

19

14:07
14:07

14:14

14:15

That people don't want to have to pay for the 14:18
14:12

14:14

Has ASHRAE received comments or complaints

14:17

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to
the scope.

14:14

14:16

21

THE WITNESS: That would have been

14:17

22

14:07

23 ASHRAE as Bates number ASHRAE0003496 is not an
25

14:13

18 that the cost of the -- the Standard 90.1 is too high? 14:10
14:07

22 any reason to doubt that this document produced by
24 authentic document?

14:09

16 standard is too high.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. Let's try to

14:01
14:04

15 standard, is my guess, or they think the cost of the

14:07

20

14:06

And on page 6, what's marked ASHRAE0003500

13 reference to?

14:07

MR. BECKER: So as to the -- the

19

Q

12

14:06

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Which subjects

17

14:03

10 standard," then subpoint, "Revenue objectives are

14:06

specifically are you referring to?

14:01

11 antithetical to widespread adoption."

reports has to do with the subjects that

16

It means -- because the IECC uses 90.1 as

9 titled "Challenges to Adoption," it says, "Cost of the 14:13

14:06

MR. BECKER: Well, the content of these

15

A

8

14:06

she's been designated for.

3

7 state or jurisdiction could use 90.1.
14:06

14:06

10

14

14:00

6 and did not change it, then that -- that particular

14:06

13

What -- what does it mean, then?

5 jurisdiction adopted it and left that requirement in

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Matt, just what is it

12

No.

Q

4 a -- as a compliance option, if the state or

14:06

7 seen the material that's in here.
8

14:06

A

2

14:06

something that Steve Comstock would have

14:18

14:07 23

14:07

known. He's the one that deals with the

24
25

14:07

Q

14:10

standards and the cost.

Page 122

14:14

(BY MR. BECKER) Are you personally aware of 14:15
Page 124

1

Q

And could you describe what this document is? 14:00

1 any instances where individuals have complained about

2

A

It appears to be a presentation on the

2 the cost of -- of the -- the 90.1 standard being too

14:02

3 marketing task group's meeting report from June 26,
4 2004.
5

Q

14:06

14:00

3 high?
4

On the second page of this document, it

14:16
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the scope

14:08

5

again. Ms. Reiniche is not being deposed in

6 refers to "increased number of states using or"

14:00

6

her personal capacity.

7 referring -- "referencing 90.1." And that's under

14:05

7

8 "Good News." Why would that be good news?
9
10

14:08

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the

14:01

characterization of the document.

11

14:02

THE WITNESS: It would be good news

12

that's part of the EPAct.

14

Q

14:10

THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
Q

14:07

14:16
14:17

14:13

(BY MR. BECKER) Two pages after that, on

13 Others are not passive."

(BY MR. BECKER) And then it says, "However, 14:03

14:11

14

14:19

14:12

Do you know what that refers to?

14:14

15 these, 'adoptions' and references are almost all due to 14:04

15

16 adoption of the I-codes, not the direct adoption of

16 submitted to -- to the IECC that are more stringent

17 90.1."
18

14:00

14:05

A

That means that there's been code proposals

17 than 90.1.

Do you know what they're referring to by

14:01

14:16

11 proposals that are more stringent than 90.1 viewed as a 14:13
12 significant risk to our standing in the marketplace.

14:00

14:13

9 ASHRAE003502, it says, "Some recognized risks." And
10 then in the middle of that page, it says, "Code

14:06

because people are using our product, and

13

8

14:17

14:11

18

Q

14:10
14:13

14:18

Do you know how ASHRAE responded to this

14:17

19 I-codes?

14:02

19 perceived risk that there were code proposals submitted 14:12

20

A

Yes.

14:03

20 that were more stringent than 90.1?

21

Q

And what is that?

22

A

That would be the IECC.

23

Q

And so does that mean that when the IECC is

21

14:04

A

14:15

If a code proposal that was submitted was

14:10

22 more stringent than 90.1, then ASHRAE would have spoke 14:13

14:05
14:03

23 most likely against that proposal, depending on --

14:18

24 adopted, 90 -- ASHRAE Standard 90.1 is adopted as well 14:07

24 there's a lot of factors that that would have been

25 because it's an equivalent?

25 dependent on. It would have depended on what part,

14:07
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14:14
14:17
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1 what portion of 90.1 it was commented on or, you know, 14:11

1

2 how it was developed, that type of thing.

2 of this email?

3

Q

14:16

And then two pages later on ASHRAE0003506, it 14:14

4 then has "Recommendations," and then parentheses

14:10

5 "repeated." And the first three recommendations are
6 "Make it free, make it beautiful, and make it
7 electronic."
8

14:14

14:17

And is that -- are you one of the recipients 14:12
14:17

3

A

Yes.

14:19

4

Q

And what is this email?

5

A

This is an email on having a discussion about 14:16

14:14

6 DOE comparing the IECC and 90.1 as equivalent.

14:10

7

Do you understand this as referring to ASHRAE 14:15

9 90.1?

Q

14:17

Q

14:14

At the bottom of -- near the bottom of the

14:18

8 page, Ryan Colker writes, "Folks, we are seeing some

14:13

9 indications from DOE that they are beginning to see the 14:18

10

A

Yes.

14:17

11

Q

Three pages later on ASHRAE0003509, it says, 14:17

10 IECC and 90.1 as equivalent (i.e., states can be in

14:11

11 compliance if they adopt the IECC without the reference 14:11

12 "Paradigm Shift Issues." And then it says, "Decide if 14:15

12 to 90.1.) As you can guess, this could have

13 we want to continue to live in this code minimum

13 significant impact on the future of 90.1."

14:10

14

What did Mr. Colker mean by that?

14:17

15

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

16

THE WITNESS: That he's concerned that

14:19

14 world." And "code minimum" is underlined.
15

14:12

Do you know what this is referring to with

14:16

16 the term "code minimum world"?
17

A

14:18

That means, you know, a minimum level for

14:15

Q

22

A

I'm sorry, what do you mean by "go beyond the 14:14
14:17
Maybe towards the -- towards the development 14:18

23 of green standards or green codes.
24

Q

14:12

14:10

if it's found to be equivalent, that it could

14:17

mean that the IECC would be referenced in

19

EPAct instead of 90.1.

20

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) And who is Ryan Colker?

A

Well, at that time, he was the manager of

14:19

14:13

22 government affairs for ASHRAE.

14:18

Do you know if Mr. Colker is still at ASHRAE? 14:17

A

He is not.

Q

Do you know when he left ASHRAE?

1

A

I want to say sometime in 2010.

2

14:16

Q

24
25

14:14

Q

And Doug Read responded to Ryan Colker by

14:20
14:20
Page 128

Page 126
1

A

Green codes and green standards typically are 14:14

2 not cost -- cost -- cost justified, where you can

14:16

3 propose doing some technology -- technological thing
4 that's expensive that, you know, a normal building

14:12
14:16

14:25

3 saying, "I echo Ryan's concern. I suggest we take a

6

14:25

5 differentiate ourselves from the ICEC. Doug."

6 wouldn't want to put in their building versus a

14:14

14:25
14:21

4 stance and clearly delineate the differences and

5 person wouldn't want to put -- you know, building owner 14:11

14:28

Did -- do you think that Mr. Read meant the

14:25

7 minimum, which is not only is it energy efficient, but 14:18

7 IECC?

8 it's cost -- cost effective.

8

A

Yes.

9

Q

And has ASHRAE taken a stance and clearly

9
10

14:11

THE COURT REPORTER: A building owner
would want to put in their building?

11

their building.

13

Q

14:12
14:17

16

(BY MR. BECKER) At the bottom of that page, 14:17
What is ASHRAE's EPAct advantage?

A

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 14:13

13 line for line, no.
14

Q

14:24

We have not done a comparison between the two 14:27
14:23

Was that what ASHRAE was considering doing,

14:26

15 was doing a line-for-line comparison between the IECC

14:29

14:25

17

A

They discussed it.

Q

Has ASHRAE done anything else to

14:27

20 of the public?

14:22

14:10

21

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

14:24

THE WITNESS: I am not aware we've done

14:28

anything in the eyes of the public. We've

Do you recognize this document, Ms. Reiniche? 14:10

24

probably had discussions where we pointed out

Yes.

25

the difference between the processes that are

A

Okay.

24

Q

25

A

14:20

22

14:14

23

23

14:22

19 differentiate Standard 90.1 from the IECC in the minds 14:25

14:13

21 marked as Exhibit 1160. This is Bates number
22 ASHRAE0025561.

A

18

14:12

14:15

19 (Exhibit 1160 marked for identification.)
Q

14:20

16 and ASHRAE Standard 90.1?

14:17

17 another minimum energy efficient commercial building

20

14:18

14:12

That were referenced in the EPAct over

18 code.

11 and the IECC?
12

14:17

14 it says, "How long will we have our EPAct advantage?"
15

14:28

10 delineated the differences between ASHRAE Standard 90.1 14:28

14:13

THE WITNESS: Would not want to put in

12

14:17

14:16

23

And how do green standards and green codes

25 differ from Standard 90.1?

17
18

14:17

19 efficiency, or do you want to go beyond the code.
21 code"?

14:10
14:13

21

18 your -- the development of -- in 90.1, energy
20

14:14

14:15
14:16
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14:21
14:23
14:27
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33 (Pages 126 - 129)
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1

used to develop the two documents, but it's

14:29

1

MR. BECKER: It has not been asked.

2

not been, like, you know, a press release or

14:21

2

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Okay. I -- are you --

3

something like that.

4

Q

3

14:25

(BY MR. BECKER) Was ASHRAE concerned that if 14:28 4

14:27
14:27

is your position here that someone who, by

14:27

virtue of being on one of the committees,

14:27

5

essentially speaks for ASHRAE, such that you

6

can ask Ms. Reiniche to interpret their --

7 incorporation of standard -- ASHRAE Standard 90.1 into 14:20

7

their documents?

8 laws and regulations throughout the United States?

8

5 the IECC and ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 were seen as

14:20

6 equivalent, it would mean that there would be less

14:25
14:26

14:27

14:27

14:27

MR. BECKER: Well, if Ms. Reiniche has

9

an understanding of what this might mean,

10 If -- if the reference changed. That's possible.

14:26

10

particularly because of her senior role with

11

14:20

11

regards to the development of these standards

12

and so forth, then I would hope that

13

14:27

Ms. Reiniche can provide that information.

9

A
Q

It would depend on if the EPAct changed.
Would that mean that if -- if the EPAct

12 changed -13

A

14:23

14:23

If the reference in the EPAct was changed

14 from 90.1 to the IECC.

14:23

14

14:26

14:27
14:27
14:27

14:28
14:28

I think that a document such as this

14:28

15

discussing ASHRAE 90.1 2010 falls well within

16 adoption of Standard 90.1 into the laws and regulations 14:25

16

topic number 1 that she's been designated on.

17 of jurisdictions in the United States?

17

Q

15

Q

Then that would mean there would be less

14:22

14:20

A

It's possible, yes.

19

Q

And was ASHRAE concerned about that?

20

A

If -- if that changed, they were. They were 14:23

14:24
14:26

Did it change?

23

A

No.

24

Q

Did the DOE ever publicly weigh the option of 14:22

14:21

Not that I'm aware of, there hasn't been

14:28

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: I think because the

14:28
14:29

growing period, there's one time frame where

24

I think they pulled residential out. I think

14:29

14:22 25
Page 130

at one time it included residential. It does

14:29

14:29

Page 132

1

14:21

14:23

have been when we started continuous

14:28

3

14:25

not include low-rise residential. 1999 would

2

14:22

2 anything published where they were going to do that
3 (Exhibit 1161 marked for identification )

14:28

23

14:23

25 changing the EPAct to IECC instead of ASHRAE 90.1?

A

20 maturity period for Standard 90.1?
22

Q

maintenance.

14:21

4

Without seeing Mr. Skalko's notes on

5 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1161 This is Bates 14:20

5

this, but based on my knowledge, I think that

6 number ASHRAE0005677 Do you recognize this document? 14:25

6

these periods are times that -- in the

7

A

Yes

7

maturity period shows greater energy savings,

8

Q

Could you tell me what this document is?

8

and that's what he's trying to demonstrate in

9

A

This is a presentation given by Stephen

9

that timeline.

4

Q

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

11 energy codes 2010
12
13

14:29

14:29
14:24
14:27

10 Skalko, who is the chair of 90 1, at a conference on

10

14:21

"Who is the chair of 90 1," and --

14

Charlotte, North Carolina

17

Q

A

Yes.

14:23

Q

And who is he?

14

A

He is the past chair of 90.1. I think he

14:24

15 started after the 2010 version published.
16

14:25

18

14:29

A

14:26
14:23

And do you have any idea how long Mr. Skalko 14:32

17 has been a member of ASHRAE?

(BY MR BECKER) On page 3 of this document, 14:23

18 Bates number ASHRAE0005679, it says at the top,

Q

14:21

14:25

13

14:28

14:23
14:27

14:20

14:27

energy codes conference in 2010 at -- in

16

14:26

(BY MR. BECKER) Do you know who Mr. Steven

12

14:27

14:27

THE WITNESS: It's at -- given at an

15

Q

14:23
14:29

11 V. Skalko is?

14:27

THE COURT REPORTER: Say that again

14:28

19 distinction between this growing period and mature -- 14:28
21

14:29

22

1

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm sorry, Ms. Reiniche.

18 Let's see. I asked why do you think there was a

18

21 concerned if it changed, yes.

14:28
14:28

14:30

I would have to look in the ASHRAE records,

14:32

19 "Standard 90 1 Timeline," and it delineates between the 14:25

19 but he's been a member longer than I've been there, so 14:35

20 growing period from 1970 to 1999, and then the maturity 14:22

20 over 11 years.

21 period from 1999 to 2010 What does that mean?

14:20

21

22

MR CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form

14:22

22 worked on ASHRAE 90.1?

23

Matt, do we know if the Steven person, do we

24

know if he's an ASHRAE staff member? Do

25

we -- was that asked at any point?

Q

14:38

And for as long as you know, has Mr. Skalko

14:32

14:36

23

14:28

A

Yes.

24

14:23

14:32

Q

And would you say that Mr. Skalko is -- is -- 14:32

25 would you say that Mr. Skalko knows a good deal about

14:21

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14:39
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34 (Pages 130 - 133)
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1 ASHRAE Standard 90.1?
2

A

3

14:36

Yes.

2 my -- my guess is their goals are the same as ours,

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

14:38

4 (Exhibit 1162 marked for identification.)
5

Q

1 I don't know why they would choose to do that. I mean, 14:38

14:38
14:34

4 would assume they would enter MOUs with whatever

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 14:34

6 marked as Exhibit 1162. This is Bates number

14:34

8

A

Yes.

14:38

9

Q

And could you tell me what this document is? 14:39

10

A

This is a Memorandum of Understanding between 14:31

12 but I would guess it's sometime in 2007 time frame,

14:34

14:35

13 because that's when Terry Townsend was president of
15

Q

14:39

14:34

And is this a signed copy of the Memorandum

14:35
14:39

17

A

Yes.

14:34

18

Q

Has ASHRAE had multiple Memorandums of

A

Yes.

Q

14:35
14:30

When did ASHRAE first start having

14:32

24

A

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to form.

9

14:36

THE WITNESS: I am not positive on how

10
11

Q

14:37

that came about. I would have to check.

14:39

(BY MR. BECKER) Did ASHRAE staff meet with

12 the Department of Energy to help facilitate the
A

I have -- I'll have to go back and double

15 check in my records to see.
16

Q

14:31

14:36

14:39

Would it be customary for ASHRAE staff to

14:30

18 the incorporation of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 into EPAct?
19

A

It would be customary for ASHRAE staff with

14:32

14:38

23
14:34

14:38

14:36

22 (Exhibit 1163 marked for identification.)
Q

14:39

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 14:32

24 marked as Exhibit 1163. This is Bates number

14:33

25 ASHRAE0024558. Do you recognize this document?

14:38
Page 136

Page 134
1

Could you remind me of when that was?

A

I think it was '99

14:30

3

Q

Okay

4

A

Around that time frame

5

Q

Was that soon after EPAct?

6

A

I would have to look

7

Q

Has ASHRAE -- ASHRAE and the DOE continued to 14:36

14:32
14:34

Yes.

Q

And what is this document?

3

Q

2

A

2

1

14:36

A

This is a presentation that would have been

14:39
14:30

4 made by the D.C. office to tech council and the chapter 14:32

14:34

5 technology and transfer committee. I think that's what 14:33

14:35

6 CTTC stands for. And it would have been made in -- at 14:36

14:31

7 the ASHRAE meeting in Albuquerque, New Mexico, on
8 June 26, 2010.

8 enter into memorandums of understanding to the present 14:33
9 day?

14:39

14:36

13 incorporation of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 into EPAct?

21 requesting that type of thing.
14:39

14:32

After EPAct was -- when 90.1 was made a

25 reference in EPAct.

14:30

20 ASHRAE volunteer leadership to go to -- when they were 14:32
14:34

22 Memorandums of Understanding with the Department of
23 Energy?

How is it that ASHRAE 90.1 came to be

17 meet with members of the Department of Energy prior to 14:37

19 Understanding with the Department of Energy?
21

14:35

Q

7 incorporated into EPAct?

14

16 of Understanding between the DOE and ASHRAE?

20

14:32

8

11 the Department of Energy and ASHRAE. It's not dated,

14:38

5 organizations would help them reach that goal.
6

14:35

7 ASHRAE0026233. Do you recognize this document?

14 ASHRAE.

14:31

3 energy efficient buildings in the United States. So I 14:36

9

14:36

Q

And what is the purpose of this document, to 14:42

10 your understanding?

14:37

14:41

14:47
14:44

10

A

Yes

11

Q

How regularly do they do so?

14:37

11

12

A

It -- it varies It depended -- it depends

14:32

12 office just to let the CTCC [sic] and tech council know 14:49

13 on who's at -- who's in charge at the Department of

15 positive if it's signed yet
Q

Is this typically an annual event?

17

A

Not always annual Sometimes it's every

18 couple of years

14

14:38

Q

18 join."

14:36

Q

And is it sometimes an annual event, though? 14:37

19

20

A

Sometimes

20

21

Q

And why would the -- why would the leadership 14:32

14:39

22 of the Department of Energy reflect or change whether

I can't speak for the Department of Energy

14:45

14:43
What is that referring to?

A

14:44

There is a high-performance building caucus

21 coalition that meets in D.C. It deals with high

14:45

14:40

22 performance buildings. Beyond -- that would be beyond 14:44

14:33

23 ASHRAE would enter into a memorandum -- memorandum of

A

14:48

17 Coalition," in parentheses, "ask your representative to 14:49

14:34

19

25

14:45

16 says, "High-Performance Building Congressional Caucus

14:37

24 understanding with the Department of Energy?

14:44

On the third page of Bates number

15 ASHRAE0024560 titled "Participation Coalitions," it

14:33

16

The purpose of this document is for the D.C. 14:45

13 what they've been doing in D.C.

14:35

14 Energy We were just working on a new one I'm not

A

14:38

23 the minimum code.

14:47

24

Q

Are these -- and who composes this coalition? 14:40

25

14:30
14:36

A

Oh, there's a lot of different standards

Page 135

14:48
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1 developers that are in part of it. It might even be in 14:41

1

2 here, it tells you. There's a -- there's a long list. 14:46

2 or how often they still meet. I think it was about

3 I don't have that memorized. I don't know if it -- oh, 14:41

3 once a month.

4 if you turn to page -- that says ASHRAE0024575, that

4

14:47

A

Q

Yeah, about -- I'm not sure they still meet

5 Congress or as a larger group?

6 in the high-performance building congressional caucus

6

A

14:40

14:42

Do they meet individually with the members of 14:49

5 shows you who's on the high -- what groups are involved 14:45
14:40

14:47

14:41

If they're doing it as the high-performance

14:45

7 at that time. It includes the representatives and then 14:45

7 building congressional caucus, they're meeting as a

14:48

8 the different standards developers that are involved.

14:47

8 group. If they're advancing something within their

14:41

9

14:44

9 organization, then the supporting coalition would

14:44

Q

The code chairs and members that are listed

10 on that page you just referenced, are these all members 14:46

10 probably be meeting individual with representatives.

11 of Congress?

11

14:49

12

A

Yes.

14:40

13

Q

What's the purpose of participation in the

A

14:47

14:47

18 more energy efficient than the minimum code.

14:42

20 these members of Congress so as to have them

23
24

14:41

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

14:48

Um-hmm.

14:43

Q

Then on the following page it says, "American 14:43

16 Clean Energy and Security Act, HR 2454 a/k/a

14:46

17 Waxman-Markey, sets national building code energy
18 efficiency targets."

14:41

14:42

14:49

Then two bullet points down it says, "Uses

14:42

20 ASHRAE 90.1-2004 and" E -- "IECC 2006 as baselines."
Does ASHRAE advocate for the use of earlier

23 laws or regulations?

14:45

14:44

24

A

That's not what this refers to.

14:44

Q

What does that refer to?

14:46

Page 138
1

A

Education.

2

Q

And what is the benefit of educating the

14:44

3 members of Congress?
4

A

14:48

Q

14:42

14:44
14:46

14:49

5 residential code. That's where that falls in there.
And they want to do it -- set it at a

14:44

14:48

7 baseline, so each consecutive every three years. So

8 to -- as to what to incorporate into reference into the 14:49
9 law?

14:48

4 about the IECC 2006, they're talking about the
6

So it's to help them with their decisions

This refers to as part of EPAct the

3 more energy efficient 90.1 -- and when they're talking 14:45

5 before them when they're making a decision of what to
7

A

2 Department of Energy is required to determine how much 14:41

So they understand things when things do come 14:49

6 incorporate into law.

Page 140
1

14:45

14:42

14:41

8 for example, 90.1-2007 has to be more energy efficient 14:44
9 than -- so much more energy efficient than 90.1-2004

10

A

Correct.

14:43

11

Q

And how does the high-performance building

14:49
14:44

11 then they wouldn't adopt that. And then for 90.1-2010. 14:49
12 They are just taking a baseline target to measure the

13 educate these members of Congress on issues related to 14:40
14 incorporating these -- excuse me, incorporating

14 and cause market confusion.

14:40

13 amount of energy efficiency so that it's not in flux

16
17

14:46

14:40

15

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the

14:43

characterization of the prior testimony.

18

14:45

THE WITNESS: They -- my recollection

19
20

office was that they -- they have a lunch,

21

they sit there and they talk, sometimes they

22

have an educational session; things like

23

that.

24

Q

And the same with the IECC. That's -- but

16 the IECC refers only to the residential, not to

14:49

18

Q

20

14:45

A

14:46

Does ASHRAE 90.1-2004 refer only to

14:44

14:47

22

Q

14:49

No, 90.1-2004 is commercial. There's two

21 codes in that reference, two different codes.

14:40

14:40
14:42

19 residential and not commercial in this instance?

14:42

14:43

14:48

17 commercial in this instance.

14:47

from the presentations made by the D.C.

So in this instance, if you had a -- a

14:41
14:44

14:47

23 commercial building, then ASHRAE 90.1-2004 would be the 14:41

(BY MR. BECKER) So they meet with the

25 members of Congress?

14:49

10 They measure that. If it's not more energy efficient, 14:44

12 congressional caucus and the supporting coalition

15 standards into the law?

14:45

14:48

22 versions of 90.1 in Standard -- excuse me, in -- in

25

(BY MR. BECKER) What's the purpose of having 14:40

25 the members of Congress involved?

A

21
14:47

THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of.
Q

14:48

14

19

14:46

21 incorporate these standards into the law?
22

14:41
14:49

And is this for the purpose of influencing

14:43

15

It's really pro -- promoting doing things for 14:43

17 standards, pushing the envelope to make things even
Q

14:47
14:45

13 and then it says, "ASHRAE Washington, D.C."

14:40

16 high-performance buildings, so stretch codes, green

19

On page ASHRAE0024568, it says,

12 "Legislation," with an image of the capitol building,

14 high-performance building congressional caucus?
15

Q

14:44

14:46

24 baseline standard and not be IECC 2006?
25

A

No.

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14:48

14:43
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1

Q

How am I mistaken?

2

A

1 the -- but we explained that once you -- as you get

What this proposed legislation was, was to

14:45

14:50

2 above -- when you're going between the 30 and the 50

14:48

14:53

14:43

3 percent, it gets more and more difficult to have

4 determination on whether or not the next version of

14:47

4 cost-effective equipment and things like that and -- in 14:58

5 90.1 is more energy efficient. So this was proposing

14:40

5 there. So it -- it wasn't put in the law.

3 set the baseline for which the DOE uses to make the

6 to use 90.1-2004 as the benchmark for each subsequent
7 version of 90.1.
8

14:44

9 then the IECC is for residential. They're referenced

14:43
14:41

12 subsequent version of the IECC for residential moving

17

A

9 and then under that, "Standard 90.1 and Standard

14:50

11

14:54

Does this mean that the Washington office was 14:50

12 engaged in promoting the adoption of Standard 90.1 into 14:54
13 building codes?
14

14:42

15 commercial buildings or is it only for residential
16 buildings?

14:46

14:49

Okay. Does the IECC itself refer to

A

14:50

I don't remember. And without seeing it, if 14:55

15 he -- he didn't have notes with it, so I don't think it 14:59

14:49

16 was at a building code level. I think that's something 14:52

14:42

17 they were talking about expanding in the grassroots.

There -- there's different I-codes within the 14:46

18 IECC. So there's the IRC, which is residential, but

14:40

18 That was not done at that time.

19 it's part of the whole body of codes. So the IECC for 14:43

19

20 residential is just the energy efficiency stuff for
22

Q

14:40

21

14:44

On the following page, it says, "American

14:58

24 "Introduced by Senator Jeff Bingaman, D-NM. Updates

14:53

14:55

We have started a grassroots program to reach 14:51

14:51

14:53

23 different standards. And we could ask volunteers in

14:58

24 those jurisdictions to go.

25
14:58
Page 142

25 national building energy codes and standards at least

A

So that's something -- is that something

22 out when we are made aware of references to -- to

14:55

23 Clean Energy Leadership Act, S.1462." It says,

Q

14:57

14:52

20 that's done in -- at this time?

21 residential home -- residential stuff.

14:58

14:56
14:56

10 189.1/IGCC promotion."

14:48

11 that you use the IECC 2006 as the baseline for each

Q

14:52

On page ASHRAE0024581, it says, "Additional

8 third major bullet point, "Building code adoptions,"

And then -- and that's only commercial. And 14:40

10 as the residential. What's being advocated here is

14

Q

7 Washington office activities." And it says for the

14:48

13 forward as for energy efficiency.

6

14:55

Q

14:52

And when you say "a grassroots program," who 14:53
Page 144

1 every three years to achieve target energy savings of," 14:51

1 is involved in the grassroots program?

2 and then it -- four bullet points down from that, it

2

14:55

A

14:57

It's -- it's the individual ASHRAE chapters

14:50

3 says, "If DOE determines ASHRAE's future revised model 14:50

3 within each state, and then each -- you know, there's

4 codes will not meet targets, DOE will propose or

14:55

4 multiple chapters within a state. So whoever is

14:55

5 establish a modified code or standard that meets the

14:58

5 closest to wherever the decision is being made.

14:58

6 above targets. Uses 90.1-2004 as baseline for

14:50

7 commercial buildings IECC 2006 for residential."
8

14:56

When it references "Uses 90.1-2004 as

14:59

9 baseline for commercial buildings," is that in the same 14:53
10 capacity as the reference on the prior page that you
11 were just referring to?
12

A
Q

14:51

This is -- this proposed language is not

14:59

9

14:58

10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection.
Q

(BY MR. BECKER) -- in states and local

12

14:52

mischaracterization of prior testimony.

14:56

15

other standards as well.

17

Q

14:53

90.1. It could include any other -- our

16

14:58

14:59

14:51

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection,

14

14:50

14:52
14:54

14:53

Did the Department of Energy propose or

16 above targets on page ASHRAE0024570?
A

And so this is -- the grassroots program

8 adoptions of Standard 90.1 into building codes --

13

14:54

15 establish a modified code or a standard that met the
17

Q

7 works to advocate for building code adoptions --

11 governments?

14:59

Yes. One is a bill proposed in the House;

13 one is a bill proposed in the Senate.
14

14:56

6

14:52

THE WITNESS: It could include Standard

14:54

14:56
14:59

(BY MR. BECKER) And at the bottom of this

14:54

18 in -- in law at this particular time. This was -- this 14:51

18 page, it says, "Empowering chapters to engage state and 14:56

19 was talking about what was being proposed at this point 14:55

19 local policy-makers." Do you know what that

20 in time in 2010.

20 references?

14:50

21

Q

What was the outcome?

22

A

21

14:53

I don't -- I don't think they set -- I don't 14:56

A

14:52

That's referencing what I was talking about, 14:53

22 the grassroots, and encouraging local chapters to talk 14:55

23 believe that they set targets, because it's -- as part 14:59

23 to their state and local policy makers.

24 of the -- these codes, it has to be cost effective.

24

14:56

25 And as ASHRAE explained -- and I'm not sure if it's

14:59

Q

14:51

And on the next page, it says, "Opportunities 14:55

25 for individual member participation. Contact state and 14:59
14:51
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1 local policy-makers on important issues "
2

3 energy codes " Is this also referring to the same
4 activities?
5

1

14:53

A

And are these six government offices and

3 interfaces with?

14:58

4

14:52

Actually, I think on this slide they were

Q

15:00

2 agencies those that the ASHRAE government affairs

And the first bullet point there is "Building 14:56

A

Yes.

15:00

5 (Exhibit 1164 marked for identification.)

14:55

15:01

6 telling the members of tech council and CTTC what they 14:57

6

7 could do at their state and local I don't think this 14:51

7 marked as Exhibit 1164. Do you recognize this

8 related to the grassroots

8 document?

9

Q

14:52

And on the next page, it has -- it says,

9

14:55

10 "ASHRAE/DOE Fellowship " What is the ASHRAE/DOE
11 Fellowship?
12

A

Q

15:00

15:00

A

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:02

This is a followup to testimony of Kent

15:02

10 Peterson to the U.S. House of Representatives on

14:56

11 "Building Green, Saving Green."

14:52

I know what it is, but I'm not sure how to

15:02

15:02

12

14:53

Q

15:02

15:02

On the fourth page, ASHRAE0024238, the first 15:02

13 articulate what it is It's usually someone that works 14:55

13 full paragraph, it says, "In addition to the need for 15:03

14 with the D C office and -- and then may assist the

14 having up-to-date building codes on the books,

14:52

15:03

15 D C staff with educating members of Congress Beyond 14:50

15 jurisdictions must have the necessary enforcement

15:03

16 that, I -- I need to look it up

16 mechanisms and training to ensure its compliance."

15:03

17

Q

14:56

So would this be a member of ASHRAE or a

17

14:59

18 member -- or an employee of -- would this be an

18

14:53

19 employee of ASHRAE or an employee of DOE who would

A

22

It --

15:03

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Where are you seeing
that?

23

the ASHRAE/DOE fellowship on 583 or the

24

internship on 584?

MR. BECKER: Excuse me. I think I

15:03
15:03

handed you the wrong document.

15:03

23 (Exhibit 1165 marked for identification.)

14:52

24

14:58

MR BECKER: On 583

THE WITNESS: I'm not seeing that.

22

14:51

Q

15:03

15:03

20

14:51

14:57

MR CUNNINGHAM: Are we talking about

25

19

14:56

Where are you, because I'm --

21

20 have -- have the ASHRAE/DOE fellowship?
21

A

15:04

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:04

25 marked as Exhibit 1165. Do you recognize this

14:50

15:04
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Page 146
1

MR. CUNNINGHAM: 583, okay.

14:51

1 document?

2

THE WITNESS: I would have to see -- I

14:57

2

have signed for the funding to answer that

14:50

4

question, since the funding is provided by

14:52

5 1164 was the followup testimony of Kent Peterson; is

4
5
6

DOE.

7
9

14:57
14:50

MR. BECKER: We -- we may follow up with
a request for that if it's under the -- the

15

requests.

16

Q

14:50

15:08
15:04

Why is compliance important for ASHRAE?
A

It doesn't -- you're -- you're not having

15:02
15:05

17 it's being done and that they're seeing a savings if

15:08

15:01

18 you're not assuring that people are complying with the 15:04

14:58

19 codes that are on the books.

A

Yes.

20

14:59

Q

It says, "Build relationships with government 14:59

21 officials interested in the built environment.

23 expertise." And then it lists six government offices

20

Q

15:07

And how does ASHRAE work to -- excuse me,

21 does ASHRAE work to encourage compliance?

14:52

22 Establish ASHRAE as a source for unbiased technical

That's correct.

15:06

14:57 16 with it. You can't prove compliance, you can't prove

14:52

19

A

11 jurisdictions must have the necessary enforcement

15 energy efficient buildings if people aren't complying

14:56

17 says, "Government Relations Activities." Do you see

24 and agencies; is that correct?

15:03

14

14:52

(BY MR. BECKER) Then on ASHRAE 0024586, it

18 that?

15:03

9 first full paragraph, it says, "In addition to the need 15:00

13

14:55

14:56

14

So on Exhibit 1165, on the fourth page, the

12 mechanisms and training to assure its compliance."

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I don't know the -- one

13

15:01

Q

10 for having up-to-date building codes on the books,

14:54

way or the other.

Correct.

15:04

15:01

A

8

ASHRAE/DOE fellowship has been produced in

11

And so the document I provided you as Exhibit 15:02

7

14:56

idea if the contract concerning the
discovery?

Q

15:09

6 that correct?

14:58

MR. BECKER: Counsel, do you have any

8

25

15:06

3 Peterson.

would have to see the contract they would

12

15:05

Yes, this is the -- the testimony of Kent

14:59

3

10

A

14:55

14:58

22

A

ASHRAE provides training for code officials

23 and consulting -- anyone that wants the training to
24 help understand what's in 90.1.

15:06

25

15:08

Q

15:09
15:04

15:08

Does ASHRAE do anything else to encourage

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15:00
15:05

15:02
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1 compliance?

15:07

1

2

A

Not that I'm aware of.

15:02

3

Q

Was there a specific reason why ASHRAE was

A

2

4 concerned that jurisdictions might not have the

15:09

15:01

3

Yes.

15:09

MR. BECKER: Could we take a quick
break?

4

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

5 necessary enforcement mechanisms and training to assure 15:07

5

6 compliance?

6 (Recess taken.)

7

A

15:02

Well, this was at a time when the economy was 15:02

8 not doing so good, so places were cutting back, and

15:04

9 that included the local building departments. So these 15:07
10 building code officials aren't able to do as much,

15:02

11 they're not able to check as much. The codes have

15:18

15:19

at 15:10.

7

15:10

15:11
15:26

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record

8

at 15:26.

9

Q

15:20

15:22

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, as part of the 15:21

10 process for developing the works at issue and updating 15:22

15:05

11 them, does ASHRAE have a process for correcting any

15:28

12 gotten more complex, so it's harder for them to enforce 15:08

12 errors that might have occurred in previous versions of 15:23

13 compliance.

13 Standard 90.1?

14

Q

15:02

If you turn to Exhibit 1164, the followup

15:01

15:28

14

A

Yes.

15 testimony of Kent W. Peterson. And if you please turn 15:07

15

Q

And what is that process called?

16 to the sixth page, ASHRAE0024250. It says,

16

A

We issue an erratum.

17

Q

Okay. And how does that work?

18 paragraph down, essentially the middle of the page, it 15:08

18

A

Some -- somebody finds an issue where

19 says, "Theoretically, there exists a national baseline 15:00

19 there -- there's something wrong and believes that it

15:06

17 "Theoretically" -- excuse me, on -- on the fourth

15:07

20 for building energy codes (ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2004
21 for commercial buildings and the International Energy
22 Conservation Code for residential buildings)."
23

15:02

15:06

15:00

"EPAct 2005 requires states to adopt a

15:20
15:22
15:25

15:08

1 enforcement mechanisms against the states that do not

15:25

21 propose -- previous change that had been approved, it

15:21

22 gets sent into staff. We consult with the chair of the 15:23
24 it is, to make sure that that's correct. If it's

15:05

1

Q

Page 152

Okay.

15:25

15:08

2 (Exhibit 1166 marked for identification.)

3 largely due to the fact that building codes generally

15:03

3

5

Does this relate to ASHRAE's concern

15:05
15:04

6 regarding enforcement mechanisms concerning
7 Standard 90.1?
A

Say that one more time.

9

Q

15:06

15:08

10 regarding enforcement mechanisms concerning

15:00

15:05

A

Yes.

13

Q

Concerns such as reflected in Exhibit 1165

A

15:06

17

Q

19

A

15:00

15:03

Yes.

Q

And what is this document?

A

This is a page -- a printout of the page on

15:27
15:29

15:06

10 they apply for.
Q

And starting on the third page of this

15:23

13 90.1?
A

15:09

If you -- well, the third major header starts 15:34

17 next one is the SI edition.
18

This also relates to the fact that while the 15:00

Q

15:37

15:30

And these documents appear to have dates on

19 the -- the end of them. So for instance, under -- on
15:03

15:07

21 dates for the -- the second bullet point, it says,
22 "Errata sheet for fourth printing GG 3/94 and all

23 the need for the states to adopt that if there's no way 15:05

23 earlier editions September 16th, 1994."

24 to enforce it at a national level?

24

15:08
15:07

15:35
15:36

20 the third page under Standard 90.1-1989 errata, various 15:33

22 an enforcement mechanism as well, so where's -- where's 15:00

Is that still the case?

15:29

15:27

16 down is the 19. -- 90.1-1999 I-P edition, and then the 15:33

21 do this, there's no penalty if they don't. So that's

Q

15:24

15:20

15 for the errata for 90.1-1989, and then the next one

15:09

20 federal government under EPAct requires the states to

25

15:20

9 the website that lists all the erratum and for what

14

I'm sorry, what do you mean by "it appears to 15:07

18 be a little bit more than that"?

A

15:23

12 document, are these the errata for standard ASHRAE

Yes, and it appears to be a little bit more

16 than that.

6

11

12

15

15:27

8

15:06

14 that we were just discussing?

4 marked as Exhibit 1166. It's a printout from the

7

Does this relate to ASHRAE's concern

11 Standard 90.1?

15:23

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:25

5 ASHRAE website. Do you recognize this document?

15:02

8

Q

15:26

15:20
15:22

2 adopt codes that meet these requirements. This is
4 are considered a state and local government issue."

15:23

20 was changed such and such a way in a -- a previous

25 correct, then we issue an erratum.
15:02
Page 150

25 90.1-2004 and the IECC. However, there are no

15:27

23 committee and/or the subcommittee, depending on where

15:07

24 building energy code that is at least as stringent as

15:20

15:38
15:30
15:36

What does the date September 16th, 1994 there 15:30

25 signify?
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15:36
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1

A

That's when -- that's when we published it on 15:36

2 the web -- or when we discovered there was an error,
3 and that's the date that we put it out.
4

Q

15:39

15:31

So September 16th is when the -- the errata

5 was released -A

Right.

7

Q

-- by ASHRAE?

8

A

Right.

9

Q

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:30

2 marked as Exhibit 1170. This is Bates numbered

15:31

3 ASHRAE0029496. Can you tell me what this document is? 15:36
15:35

4

15:30

6

1

A

It's an email conversation regarding an

15:34

5 unpublished errata sheet that we wanted the -- would

15:32

6 have been the chair at the time, Jerry White, to look

And is that -- is that the -- true for the

15:33

7 at so that when special pubs did the reprint of

15:33

15:37
15:34

15:37

8 90.1-2001, the I-P edition, it could include the errata 15:32
15:32

9 in that list.

15:30

10 other dates that are listed in -- similarly, say, under 15:35

10

11 the Standard 90.1-1999 errata?

11 question and -- of Martha VanGeem about whether one of 15:35

12

A

15:32

Yes.

15:36

12 that was -- one of the things was correct.

13 (Exhibit 1167 marked for identification.)
14

Q
A

This is an Errata Sheet for ANSI/ASHRAE

17 Standard 40.1.3[sic]-1989.
18

Q

15:32

15:31

15:37

15:33

Q

Is this email characteristic of how the

14 errata would be treated prior to publication?
15

A

15:30

Normally, there's probably not a long list of 15:34

16 unpublished errata, but this would be for a reprint, so 15:34
17 they were -- they -- with errata, they correct it in

And this errata was released on January 5th, 15:35

19 1998; is that correct?

15:39

13

15:32

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:30

15 marked Exhibit 1167. Do you recognize this document?
16

And then there's a discussion -- there was a 15:32

15:38

15:38

18 the reprint version, the error, so that it's correct in 15:30
19 the next version. Even in -- so this would be normal. 15:34

20

A

That's correct.

15:39

21

Q

And what is the purpose of -- of releasing an 15:39

20 (Exhibit 1171 marked for identification.)
21

Q

15:30

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:31

22 errata almost ten years after the date of the standard 15:35

22 marked as Exhibit 1171. Could you please tell me what 15:33

23 itself?

23 this document is?

24

A

15:31
Someone didn't find it until ten years later. 15:32

25 And if that standard is still being used, when we

1 reprint the standard, we include it with the next

24

15:37

So this is a continuation of the email

15:35

15:35
25 conversation in Exhibit 1170. Further discussions on
Page 154

2 instead of degrees R and degrees K.

15:34

3 (Exhibit 1172 marked for identification.)

4 important

4

15:30

6

Q

(BY MR BECKER) Handing you what's been

8 document?

6 this document is?

15:30

7

15:31

Yes

10

Q

And can you tell me what this document is?

11

15:39

A

This is an Errata Sheet for ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA 15:31

Q

13 would have been the chair of the lighting subcommittee 15:44
14 agrees that this is editorial.
16

15:30

Yes This is the Errata Sheet for

15:42

(BY MR. BECKER) And I'm handing you Exhibit 15:45

18

A

This is a document that's an email exchange

19 that's in continuation of Exhibits 1170, 1171, 1172

15:33
A

Q

17 marked 1173. Could you tell me what this document is? 15:48

15:32

18 ASHRAE0029503 Could you tell me what this document
19 is?

15:48

15 (Exhibit 1173 marked for identification.)

15:36

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:31

17 marked as Exhibit 1169 This is Bates numbered

20

12 that those changes were editorial. And that Eric, who 15:41

15:30

15 (Exhibit 1169 marked for identification )
16

11 made by the committee and that the committee determined 15:48

15:37

15:30
Thank you

15:42

10 were editorial or substantive. It talks about motions 15:42

15:39

12 Standard 90 1-2001 I-P edition, dated November 7th,

Q

15:32

This is a further email exchange as -- which 15:48

9 continued the discussion on whether the erratum were -- 15:49

A

14

A

8 would have been part of Exhibit 1170 and 1171,

15:39

9

13 2003

15:36

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:35

5 marked as Exhibit 1172. Could you please tell me what 15:36

15:33

7 marked as Exhibit 1168 Do you recognize this

Q

15:37

15:31

3 clearly the equation was wrong, and I'm guessing that's 15:37

5 (Exhibit 1168 marked for identification )

15:38
Page 156

1 whether or not it should be degrees F and degrees C

15:30

2 edition so people know the correct information So

A

15:44
15:48

20 where Mr. Spielvogel disagrees with what Mark Weber has 15:46

15:34

21 ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA Standard 90 1-2001 SI Edition, dated 15:39

21 said is a substantive change and says it's interpreting 15:43

22 November 7th, 2003

22 what he believes to be ANSI's rule on substantive

15:38

23

Q

And do you recognize this document?

24

A

Yes

23 changes.

15:39

24 (Exhibit 1174 marked for identification.)

15:31

25 (Exhibit 1170 marked for identification )

25

15:32

Page 155

Q

15:40

15:44
15:44

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:41
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1 marked as Exhibit 1174. Could you please tell me what 15:42

1

A

Yes

2 this document is?

2

Q

Can you tell me what this document is?

3

A

This document is the letter that gets sent to 15:46

3

A

15:42

This is a subset, I think, of another email 15:42

15:44
15:44

4 exchange related to Exhibit 1170 where Mark indicates 15:43

4 the project committee that shows the public review

5 that this correction was made by Jim Calm.

5 comments for BSR/ASHRAE/IESNA Addenda S, T, and X to

15:43

6 (Exhibit 1175 marked for identification.)
7

Q

15:44

6 ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA Standard 90 1-2007

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:44

8 marked as Exhibit 1175. Do you recognize this
9 document?

15:49

15:44

15:45

7

Q

And if you look at the sixth, seventh,

15:40

8 eighth, ninth, and I believe tenth page of this

15:47

9 document, are those copyright releases on all of those 15:51

10

A

Yes.

11

Q

And could you tell me what this document is? 15:45

11

A

Yes

12

A

This is a Certificate of Registration with

12

Q

And who are those copyright releases from?

13 the United States Copyright Office for the 1993 ASHRAE 15:45

13

A

Larry Spielvogel

14 Handbook: Fundamentals Inch-Pound Edition.

15:45

14

Q

Do you know who Larry Spielvogel is?

15

15:45

15

A

Yes

16

Q

Who is Mr Spielvogel?

17

A

He is an ASHRAE member

18

Q

Has Mr Spielvogel ever been an employee of

Q

15:45

17

A

10 pages I mentioned?

15:45

What is the 1999 ASHRAE Handbook:

16 Fundamentals?

15:45

It covers a variety of topics. I would have 15:45

18 to look at the inside cover to tell you every topic
19 that it covers.
20

Q

15:45

15:45

15:59
15:57

15:45

15:54

15:58
15:58
15:50

19 ASHRAE?

What's the purpose of the 1993 ASHRAE

15:57

15:50

20

A

No

15:45

21

Q

Do Mr Spielvogel's proposed contributions

22

15:45

22 appear in this document?

It's a -- it's a tool for engineers to use

23 when they're working with the topics covered in that
24 book.
25

Q

A
Q

A

Actually, yes

Q

And where is that?

15:45
25
Page 158

A

Under -- on the page labeled ASHRAE0013966,

15:59
15:51

Page 160

2 approve and do not publish this addendum."
3

15:46

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:46

Q

15:46

6 ASHRAE0001592. Could you -- do you recognize this

15:46

15:46

So these are his contributions, then, as to 15:52

4 say "Do not approve and do not publish this addendum" 15:52
5 that he's referring to?

15:52

6

A

That is correct.

15:52

Q

If you turn to the page ASHRAE0013973, is

8 that another signed copyright release on that page?

8

A

Yes.

15:46

9

Q

And could you please tell me what it is?

10

A

Well, the first page labeled ASHRAE001592 is 15:47

A

Yes.

10

Q

And in that instance, has it been signed and 15:53

15:53

11 also had the -- the name of the individual inserted?

12 the United States Copyright Office for ANSI/ASHRAE/IES 15:47

12

A

Yes.

13 Standard 90.1-2010 IP Edition.

13

Q

And who is that individual?

14

A

James Calm.

15 the Certificate of Registration with the United States 15:47

15

Q

And what is Mr. Calm's relationship to

16 Copyright Office for ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA

16 ASHRAE, if any?

15:47

For the page labeled ASHRAE0001594, that is 15:47

17 Standard 90.1-2007 IP Edition.
18

15:47

15:53

15:53
15:53
15:53
15:53

15:53

17

15:47

For the page labeled ASHRAE001596, this is

15:52
15:53

9

15:46

11 the certification -- Certificate of Registration with 15:47

14

15:52

15:52

7

5 marked as Exhibit 1176. This is Bates number
7 document?

15:56

1 under 4 "Comment (Proposed Text)," it says, "Do not

15:46
15:46

3 (Exhibit 1176 marked for identification.)
4

15:50

15:54

24

Is the 1993 ASHRAE Handbook: Fundamentals

I would have to look.

15:57

23

15:45

1 referenced in ASHRAE Standard 90.1?
2

15:45

15:52

15:57

21 Handbook: Fundamentals?
A

15:43

15:45

15:47

A

He's a member of ASHRAE.

18

Q

And has Mr. Calm ever been an employee of

15:53
15:53

19 the Certificate of Registration with the United States 15:47

19 ASHRAE?

20 Copyright Office for ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA

20

A

No.

21

Q

And Mr. Calm's contribution on the following 15:53

21 Standard 90.1-2004 IP -- IP Edition.
22 (Exhibit 1177 marked for identification.)
23

Q

15:48
15:48
15:48

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:48

15:53
15:53

22 page, is that "Disapprove proposed revisions in
23 Addendum S"?

15:53

15:54

24

A

That would be his comment, yes.

25 with ASHRAE0013961. Do you recognize this document? 15:48 25
Page 159

Q

And then if you turn to ASHRAE0013982, is

24 marked as Exhibit 1177. It's the document beginning

15:48

15:54
15:54
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1 that a copyright release from Pekka Hakkar --

15:59

2

A

Hakkarainen.

3

Q

-- Hakkarainen?

4

A

Yes.

5

Q

Is that Mr. or Ms. Pekka?

6

A

Mister.

7

Q

And Mr. Hakkarainen, how is he affiliated

1 (Exhibit 1180 marked for identification.)

15:56

2

15:57

4 document?
15:59

A

He's a member of ASHRAE.

Q

And has Mr. Hakkarainen ever been an employee 15:52

15:51

Q

And following section 4 on this page,

A

Yes.

18

Q

19

A
Q

10

Q

15:55

15:59

And does this document include a copyright

15:50

15:55

A

It includes it.

Q

Has the copyright release been signed?

A

Not on this particular copy.

15

Q

And what is Mr. Barnes's affiliation?

16

15:58

15:56

A

He would be an ASHRAE member or could be

15:58
15:51
15:55

17 someone that works just at the lab. I don't recognize 15:50

90.1?

15:55

18 his name.

Yes.

15:57

19
15:59

15:53

And Mr. Barnes's proposed change, is that

21

A

15:55

It's in part under -- he references the

16:09
16:03

23 right-hand corner. That's his proposed change.
24

Q

16:08

Do you know if ASHRAE has a copyright release 16:00

25 on file for Mr. Barnes?

15:51

16:09

16:02

22 document that's on page -- it says page 2 in the

15:51

15:50

This is the packet that was sent to the

Q

20 under section 5?

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:50

24 document is?

16:04

Page 162

Page 164

1 project committee members of 90.1, November 14th, 2006, 15:53

1

2 that has the first public review comments for

2 This appears to be from February of 2000, so very

15:50

3 BSR/ASHRAE/IESNA Addenda AN, AT, and AV to
Q

15:54

And does this document also contain copyright 15:51

6 releases from individuals that have been signed?
7

A

Yes.

9

Q

15:55
15:52

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:59
15:50

15:55

Q

16:08

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:02

9

A

Yes.

15:56

13

Q

And what is this document?

14

A

This is the Form for Submittal of a Proposed 15:59

This is a Form for Submittal of Proposed

16:01

10 Change to ASHRAE Standard Under Continuous Maintenance 16:04

12 April 9th, 2007

15:57

13

15 Change to an ASHRAE Standard Under Continuous

15:57

And does this document include a copyright

Q

16:07

16:01

And does this form include a copyright

16:03

14 release?

15:53

16 Maintenance submitted by Jonathan McHugh.

15:50

16:09

15

A

It does

16:00

16

Q

And has the copyright release been signed?

17

A

No, but Mr Rosenstock was a member of the

18 release?

15:52

18 project committee, and so he wouldn't have had to

19

A

Yes.

15:52

19 submit this as a formal proposal

20

Q

And under section 5, "Proposed Change," where 15:57

21 it says, "Revised section 5.1 as follows," do you

15:53

22 understand this to mean that the revision that's been
23 proposed by Mr. McHugh is that final line that starts
24 with 5.1.2.2, which is underlined?
25

A

Yes.

15:59
15:52

15:57

20

Q

16:00
16:02
16:05

16:08

And has Mr Rosenstock ever been an employee 16:01

21 of ASHRAE?

16:06

22

A

No

16:06

23

Q

And when you say that he wouldn't have had to 16:03

24 submit this as a formal proposal, what -- why do you

15:52

16:03

16 00

11 submitted by Steve Rose- -- Steven Rosenstock on

A

Q

16:09
16 06

16:09

5 (Exhibit 1181 marked for identification )

8 document is?

12

17

16:07

7 marked as Exhibit 1181 Could you tell me what this

10 marked as Exhibit 1179. Do you recognize this
11 document?

I would have to look through the records

4 that would be at Iron Mountain

6

15:54

8 (Exhibit 1179 marked for identification.)

A

15:53 3 likely this is in the paper copies of our documents

4 ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA Standard 90.1-2004.
5

15:52

15:55

23 starts at ASHRAE0011934. Could you tell me what this
A

15:52

14

15:54

22 marked as Exhibit 1178. This is the document that

25

15:50

13

15:59
15:55

20 (Exhibit 1178 marked for identification.)
21

This is the Form for Submittal of Proposed

12

15 Mr. Hakkarainen's proposed contribution to the ASHRAE
17

And what is this document?

A

11 release?

15:55

14 continuing on to the next page, is this
16 standard?

Q

9 Continuous Maintenance.

15:55

13

15:57

8 Change to ASHRAE Standards and Guidelines Under

9

No.

Yes.

7

10

A

15:56

A

6
15:53

15:50

12

15:52

5

15:52

11 of ASHRAE?

15:57

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 15:51

3 marked as Exhibit 1180. Do you recognize this

15:58

8 with ASHRAE, if at all?

Q

25 say that?

Page 163

16:06

16:01

Page 165

42 (Pages 162 - 165)
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1

A

I -- and I think Mr. Barnes might have been

16:02

1 Form For Public Proposals in the International Codes.

16:06

2 on the project committee, too. As I'm recollecting the 16:04

2 This would have been for the 2007/2008 code development 16:01

3 roster you shown -- had shown me previously, I believe 16:00

3 cycle.

4 his name was on there. And for -- for a project

4

Q

Is that for the code development of the ICC? 16:06

5

A

Yes.

6 to file a continuous maintenance change proposal. They 16:09

6

Q

Would that be for the IECC or for something

7 can just submit it as a motion to change it, either at 16:02

7 else?

8 the subcommittee level or at the full committee level. 16:07

8

16:02

5 committee member to propose a change, they don't have

9 They would never have to do it through the formal.

16:07

16:09

10 They can choose to, but they have also already signed

16:02

A

16:05
16:01

I need to look at the proposal. This would

9 have been for the IECC.
10

Q

16:02

16:09
16:00

16:07

And the company that's listed on the front of 16:08

11 the copyright release form as part of their membership 16:05

11 this document under section 1, "Jurisdiction/Company"

12 on the project committee.

12 is ASHRAE; is that correct?

13

Q

16:08

So it's not necessary for them to fill out

14 one of these forms?

16:09

A

Correct.

16

Q

16:03

17 forms?
A

A

That's correct.

14

And why would they fill out one of these

18

13

16:02

15

16:00

16:05

Q

Does ASHRAE submit material to be included in 16:00

15 the IECC?
16:03

16:06
16:06

It may be just -- just because they want to, 16:07

19 to -- you know, put a -- maybe they're asking to do

Yes.

Q

Why is it that ASHRAE submits material to be 16:09

16:08

18 included in the IECC?

16:02

19

16:04

16:03

20 version of 90.1.

20 that so we put it on a timeline. When it comes on a
21 form, there's a timeline that applies, a 13-month

A

17

16:05

16

16:08

21

A
Q

To make the IECC consistent with the current 16:04
16:09

And if you turn to the final page of this

16:07

22 window. Where if you submit it in the committee, there 16:03

22 document, ASHRAE0012344, could you tell me what that

23 isn't a timeline.

23 is?

24

16:06

So this is just maybe for his -- the reason

16:00

24

16:09

16:08
A

This is a Copy Release for 2007/2008

16:08

25 Mr. Rosenstock did this was so that it would be handled 16:03
25 Proposals, Modifications and Public Comments Submitted 16:04
Page 166
Page 168
1 within 13 months

1 on ICC Codes from -- that's produced and published by

16:00

2 (Exhibit 1182 marked for identification )
3

Q

5 document?
A

3

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:05

4 marked as Exhibit 1182 Do you recognize this

6

2 the International Code Council.

16:04

Q

And so this is a copyright release to the

4 ICC; is that correct?

16:06

16:08

16:00

5

Yes This is a Form for Submittal of

16:01

A

That's correct.

6

16:00

16:07

16:01

16:01

Q

And has ASHRAE entered into a copyright

16:04

7 Proposed Change to an ASHRAE Standard Under Continuous 16:04

7 release to the ICC for the -- its contributions to the 16:07

8 Maintenance, submitted by Shlomo Rosenfeld in --

8 IECC?

9 June 11th, 2009
10

Q

16:09

9

16:05

And does this document include

12

A

Yes, it does

13

Q

Is the copyright release for the project

16:04
Steve Comstock would have signed a copyright 16:08

10 release.

16:03

11 Mr Rosenfeld's proposed change under section 5?

A

11 (Exhibit 1184 marked for identification.)

16:07

12

16 02

Q

13 marked as Exhibit 1184. Do you recognize this

16:01
16:04

14 document?

15 memberships that -- that we had discussed earlier

16:02

15

17

A

Thank you

22

Q

18

16:08

That is correct.

Q

16:16

And on the first page of this document,

16:17
16:10

22 an "X" next to where it says "2007/2008 Cycle Copyright 16:18

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:00

23 Release on File." Is that correct?

16:01

16:13

24

A

That's correct.

25

25

Q

Does that mean that ASHRAE had submitted a

Yes This is a Public Code Change Proposal

16:15
16:19

24 number ASHRAE0012340 Do you recognize this document? 16:07
A

16:13

21 where -- under section 2, "Copyright Release," there is 16:13

16:00

23 marked as Exhibit 1183 This is a document Bates

For the ICC; is that correct?

A

20

16:03

Q

19

16:08

19 proposal forms and on our -- the comment forms, yes
Q

Yes. This is a Public Code Change Proposal

17 for the 2007/2008 Code Development Cycle.

The -- on the application form, the copyright 16:05

21 (Exhibit 1183 marked for identification )

A

16:17

16:11

16 Form for Public Proposals in the International Codes

16 04

18 language is the same as on our continuous maintenance

20

16:00

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:16

14 committee the same as the copyright releases for

16 today?

16:01

16:03

Page 167

16:15
16:15
Page 169

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1 copyright release to the ICC for its contributions to
2 the IECC in 2007?
3

A

16:10

1 this copy of the Department of Energy's proposal to the 16:19

16:15

2 ICC?

That's correct, Steve Comstock would have

4 issued a copyright release.

16:19

16:13

3

16:15
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to scope.

16:19

4

THE WITNESS: Because the Department of

5

Energy would have gotten the -- we would have

6 would submit content to the ICC for incorporation into 16:16

6

given them the copyright release to submit

7 the IECC or would it be volunteers?

7

the code change proposal for language that

8

was pulled directly from 90.1.

9

Q

5

Q

8

Typically, would it be ASHRAE employees that 16:14
16:10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.

16:16

16:10
16:13
16:15
16:17

16:13

9

THE WITNESS: There is a process for

16:12

10

which code change proposals are approved

16:13

10 Department of Energy will take language from 90.1 and

11

through ASHRAE. Steve Ferguson, as the

16:15

11 submit it to the ICC for inclusion in the IECC?

12

ASHRAE staff representative at the code

13

hearings, would be the one that would submit

14

the code change proposals after they've gone

15

through the process.

16

Q
A

12

16:10

It is -- Steve would put them in the form,

16:17

since this time frame; but yes, they did
submit it.

17

16:12

THE WITNESS: During this time frame

16

Q

16:12

in -- they have not done it to my knowledge

15
16:19

16:15

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.

14

16:15

16:12
16:11

13

16:12

(BY MR. BECKER) Who drafts the code change

17 proposals?
18

16:18

(BY MR. BECKER) Does that mean that the

16:13
16:15
16:19

16:13

(BY MR. BECKER) And they -- the Department

16:10

18 of Energy would do this in cooperation with ASHRAE?

16:13

19 Ferguson, but they would be -- they would come from the 16:11

19

20 existing text of the standard that we're referencing.

16:14

20 get permission if it was language pulled verbatim from 16:10

21

16:11

21 90.1. I don't know if this is verbatim from 90.1.

Q

Would they be exact quotes of the text that

22 was referenced?
23

A

The rule in ASHRAE is code -- typically, it's 16:17
16:10

1 proposed text from ASHRAE standards, they have to be
Q

5

A

16:18

16:11

24 ASHRAE Standard 90.1 and submit it as a proposal to the 16:18

1
2

16:11

And who determines that the text is

4 technically equivalent?

16:18

25 IECC?
16:12
Page 170

25 change proposals that are being submitted that submit

3

4

16:12
Page 172

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection, calls for a
legal conclusion.

3

16:18
16:14

It first goes back to the project committee

Q

16:14

Does ASHRAE believe that the Department of

22

2 technically equivalent if they are not verbatim.

Yes, if it was language pulled -- they would 16:17

23 Energy needs permission in order to take a quote from

16:15

24 the exact text, but the rule in ASHRAE is for code

A

THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q

16:10

(BY MR. BECKER) What is ASHRAE's

5 relationship to the ICC?

16:15

16:15

16:19
16:15

16:16

6 responsible for the particular standard being proposed 16:18

6

A

We have multiple relationships with the ICC. 16:12

7 into code. After they have approved it as technically 16:11

7

Q

Could you please explain?

8 equivalent or just approved its submittal, then it goes 16:17

8

A

So I would say in terms of the IECC, ASHRAE

9 to the code interaction subcommittee and they -- they

16:10

9 90.1 would be in competition with that particular

10 approve submitting it. They're reviewing the process

16:15

11 and making sure the process was followed.
12

Q

13 equivalent and not identical to the content from the
14 ASHRAE Standard 90.1?
15

A
Q

16:17

A

16:15

What kind of things does ASHRAE and the ICC

16:13

16:10

We have had ASHRAE members on the code

16:10

16:13

15 council. We've had I -- ICC members participate in the 16:13
16 development of ASHRAE standards.

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:19

18 marked as Exhibit 1185. Could you tell me what this
20

A

16:19

16:10

Members of the project committee.

19 document is?

Q

13 work together on?
14

16:11

16 (Exhibit 1185 marked for identification.)
17

12

16:11

16:10

16:17

10 document. And -- and then there's other things where
11 we work together on.

16:18

Who drafts the content if it is technically

16:19

16:11

16:18

17 (Exhibit 1186 marked for identification.)
18

Q

16:19

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:16

19 marked as Exhibit 1186. Do you recognize this

16:14

Yes, this is the Public Code Change Proposal 16:15

21 Form for Public Proposals in the International Codes
23

Q

And who is this proposal on behalf of?

16:16

24

A

The Department of Energy.

25

Q

And do you know why the -- why ASHRAE has

16:19

16:16

16:10

21

A

Yes.

22

Q

And what is this document?

23

16:17

22 for the 2009/2010 Code Development Cycle for the ICC.

20 document?

16:17

16:17

A

This is an email exchange with Dave Conover

16:19
16:13

24 and Doug Read about a comparison document for 90.1 and 16:17
25 the IECC.
16:16
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16:12
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1

Q

And on the first page, Mr. Comstock says at

16:13

1 standards that ASHRAE provides free public online

16:25

2 the second email in the chain, the bottom of the second 16:14

2 access to are incorporated by reference into the CFR

16:28

3 email, he says, "Please advise. With all the ICC

3 and otherwise used by federal agencies in programs

16:22

4 controversy, we are being cautious."
5

16:11

A
Q

16:21

16:25
16:20

16:26

16:29

A

Yes.

15

Q

And is ASHRAE's position that ASHRAE 90.1 is 16:21

A

16:21

Q

16:29

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to the
scope.

16:20

THE WITNESS: Without seeing the list of

16:25

the 30 references to know what they are, it's
hard for me to comment on that from the CFR

16:28

database. And -- and so without knowing how

16:27

18

they're referenced or what they're

19

16:21

16:29

15
17

18 (Exhibit 1187 and Exhibit 1188 marked for
20

16:21

12

16

16:29

19 identification.)

16:22

9 standards and related materials," but on the next page, 16:21

14

16:26

Yes.

Why is it that on the previous page, it says 16:24

13

14

17

That's correct.

Q

11 the CFR are provided for free public online access?

16:29

16 better than the IECC?

A

7

10 it says that only five standards that are referenced in 16:26

Is Mr. Comstock referring to the -- to ASHRAE 16:24

13 Standard 90.1?

16:25

16:22

8 that "The CFR incorporates by reference 30 of ASHRAE's 16:27

And Mr. Comstock says two paragraphs above

11 than the IECC?"

5 correct?
6

10 that, "Isn't our position that our standard is better
12

16:14

16:16

About the potential for the IECC becoming

8 referenced in EPAct instead of 90.1.
9

4 either in their current or prior editions." Is that

Do you know what Mr. Comstock was referring

6 to there?
7

16:17

16:26

referenced, and I don't know why -- what

16:23
16:25

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

16:29

20

versions are on there, I believe more

21 you what's been marked as Exhibits 1187 and 1188. Do

16:21

21

versions of standards are now on our website.

22

Q

22 you recognize these documents?

16:29

23

A

Yes.

24

Q

And the email 1187, which you are a recipient 16:27

16:20

16:20

2

A

16:28

16:21

24 30 of ASHRAE's standards and related materials," what

16:24

4

Q
A

16:23

A

Without seeing that list, I would have to say 16:24

16:27

16:29
Exhibit 1187 is an email from Mark Ames that 16:20

Q

Might that include the 1993 ASHRAE handbook? 16:29

6

A

That may include the 1993 ASHRAE handbook,

8

9 into the Code of Federal Regulations.

16:21

16:25

And then a copy -- and it looks like there

12 extension of the comment period.

16:28

13

16:28

15 starts off by saying, "ASHRAE standards are currently
16 referenced 130 times in the Code of Federal

11

A

16:24

16:27
16:20

Q

16:23

I don't know

16:24

That's correct.

Q

And then if you turn to the next page, on the 16:26

16:23

16 this document?
A
Q

19

Yes

16:37
16:37

And could you tell me what this document is? 16:39
MR CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to object to

20 last paragraph, the second-to-last sentence in the last 16:21

20

the scope here This appears to be something

21 paragraph says, "The CFR incorporates by reference 30

21

that would have been covered with

22 of ASHRAE's standards and related materials." Is that 16:22

22

Mr Comstock as part of his topics

23 correct?

16:28

23

24

A

Yes.

16:29

24

25

Q

And then on the next page, it says, "The five 16:20
25
Page 175

16:27

16:28

16:29

15 document Bates number ASHRAE0027781 Do you recognize 16:32

18

A

19

16:24

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

14 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1189 This is

17

18

16:26

16:21

12 (Exhibit 1189 marked for identification )

16:21

14 page, if you look at the third paragraph down, it

Do you know if the 1993 ASHRAE handbook has

10 regulation?

16:23

And looking at Exhibit 1188, on the first

Q

16:22

16:26

9 been incorporated by reference into any law or

16:21

11 was also a copy of the request for comments and

17 Regulations." Is that correct?

16:23

16:27

5

8 were submitted on standards incorporated by reference

Q

16:29

4 article I don't know without seeing the list

7 yes

13

Page 176

3 publications within ASHRAE It could be a referenced

7 provides the recipients of the email the comments that 16:27

10

16:27

2 could be user's manuals It could be other

16:25

And could you tell me what these documents

5 are?
6

1

That appears to be what the attachment

3 describes this as, yes.

16:20

23 page, when it says "The CFR incorporates by reference

25 of, included the document 1188 as a attachment; is that 16:22
25 does it mean by "related materials"?
Page 174
1 correct?

16:22

(BY MR. BECKER) And again, on that second

16:34
16:35
16:37

MR BECKER: Ms Reiniche is copied on
this email

16:33

16:31

16:34

MR CUNNINGHAM: And you guys purposely

16:35

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chose to not depose her in her personal

16:30

1

2

capacity as part of your effort to extend

16:30

2 Public Resource?

3

your number of depositions that you guys were

4

doing a few months back.

5
6
8

16:30

16:31
16:31
16:31

16:31

MR. BECKER: No.

14

17

16:31
16:31

Q

16:32

And so as a designee for ASHRAE, are you

16:37
16:33

A

That was -- the email conversations were

16:32

17 started with the SMACNA lawsuit.
16:31

16:31

16:36

18 (Exhibit 1190 marked for identification.)

16:38

19

MR. BECKER: If it was.

21

16:34

14 saying that the first that ASHRAE was aware of Public
16

16:31

20

16:30

15 Resource was with the initiation of the SMACNA lawsuit? 16:36

THE COURT REPORTER: Entirely certain of
what?

My recollection is that there was an

11 the stuff down, and then a lawsuit was filed by Public 16:37
13

16:31

MR. BECKER: I'm actually not entirely
certain if it was.

18
19

16:31

authenticated with Mr. Comstock?

16

A

16:36

16:38

12 Resource against SMACNA.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Why was it not

15

7

16:32

And what was the -- the context of that

10 on Public.Resource.Org. They sent a letter saying take 16:31

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Do you plan to do

13

I believe it was related to information about 16:32

9 copyrighted material. They found copyrighted material 16:38

16:31

anything else with it?

Q

16:35

16:39

8 organization that worked for SMACNA to look for

MR. BECKER: I'm having -- I'm having
her authenticate the document.

A

6 litigation?

MR. CUNNINGHAM: It's outside the scope

11
12

5

16:30

of the 30(b)(6) deposition.

3

And how did ASHRAE first become aware of

4 a court case with SMACNA.

16:30

authentication process.

9
10

16:30

MR. BECKER: This is part of the

7

16:30

Q

THE WITNESS: This is -- this is an

16:31

email I received -- would have received from

23

Mick Schwedler asking for what type of

24

copyright permission would be needed to show

25

excerpts of some of the items in 90.1.

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:32

20 marked as Exhibit 1190. Do you recognize this

16:31

22

Q

21 document?

16:31

16:33

16:38

22

16:31

16:31

Yes.

23

16:31

A

16:34

Q

This document is an -- excuse me. Can you

24 tell me what this document is?
25

A

16:39

16:34

This is an email from Jodi Scott to Jeff

16:35

Page 178
1

What appears to be missing is the email

2

I would have forwarded to Steve Comstock

16:33

3

since it was published, and I don't have

4

authority to grant copyright permission when

5

it's a published document.

Page 180
1 Littleton about the legal actions and if -- what or if 16:39

16:35
16:38

2 we need to conduct a PR campaign in conjunction with
3 the lawsuit.

16:30

4

16:33

Q

16:38

16:34

Has ASHRAE conducted a -- I'm sorry, what

5 does PR campaign stand for?

16:33

16:35

6

And then is Steve Comstock providing the

16:38

6

A

Public -- like a press release-type campaign. 16:38

7

stipulations for the copyright for which Mick

16:34

7

Q

Does that mean public relations?

8

could show --

8

A

Yes, thank you.

9

Q

And has ASHRAE engaged in a public relations 16:39

9

16:30

THE COURT REPORTER: For which what?

10

THE WITNESS: -- Mick could show

16:30
16:30

11

portion -- or screenshots of 90.1.

12

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Is that Mick Schwedler?

13

A

Yes.

14

Q

Do you know Mr. Schwedler?

15

A

Yes.

16

Q

And who is Mr. Schwedler employed by?

17
18

16:32

16:30

A

No.

Q

Are you sure of that?

14

16:39

A

I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen anything

15 come out.
16:37
16:30

Q

16:39
16:35

16:36

16:34

17 organizational participants in the lawsuit are ASTM UL 16:38
19

A

16:32

The L stands for laboratories. I think it's 16:30

20 United Laboratories.

16:33

20

Trane.

21

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) And what is Trane?

16:37

21

Q

Could it be Underwriters Laboratory?

16:36

22

A

Trane is a engineering company, manufacturer. 16:38

22

A

Underwriters. Thank you. That's right.

16:30

23

Q

Ms. Reiniche, when did ASHRAE first become

23

Q

Separate from any information that you may

24 aware of Public Resource?
25

A

16:37

16:38

16:30

And this email says that the other

18 and NFPA. Who is UL?

16:32

THE WITNESS: Mick is employed by

16

16:34

16:38

12
13

16:30

is still clearly outside the scope.

10 campaign in conjunction with the lawsuit against
11 Public.Resource.Org?

16:37

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection. This

19

16:34
16:37

16:36

24 have been given by counsel, so no information that

16:30

25 you've been given by counsel, do you know why it is

I think it was around -- I want to say 2012. 16:35
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16:30
16:32
16:36
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2 litigation?

16:38

1

3

A

No, I do not.

16:33

4

Q

Can you venture a guess as to why they're not 16:38

5 part of this litigation?
7

MR. FEE: Same objection.

8

THE WITNESS: My guess would be they --

16:34

it's cost prohibitive for them to be part of
Q

16:36

16:41

the lawsuit. That would be my guess.
(BY MR. BECKER) And is it not cost

A

conjunction with -- with legal counsel. So I

6

don't believe I can answer that.
Q

16:45

16:48

16:48

16:41

(BY MR. BECKER) The document says, "An

A

16:42
16:43

16:46

Yes, but I believe legal counsel was involved 16:41

11 in that meeting.

16:41

16:43

8 initial meeting of PR folks is being organized." Did
10

16:49

I suppose it could be cost prohibitive.

not to do a PR campaign was held in

9 that meeting take place?

16:44

12 prohibitive for ASHRAE to be part of the lawsuit?
13

4

16:33

conversations about the -- what -- whether or

7

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the form.

11

16:47
16:42

5

6

9

THE WITNESS: I believe all of the

3

16:31

10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

2

16:32

16:45

12

Q

When did the meeting take place?

16:46

13

A

Sometime probably shortly after this date.

14 That's a decision made by our board of directors.

16:40

14

Q

Do you know who was in attendance at that

15

16:49

15 meeting?

Q

When did ASHRAE first consider filing a

16 lawsuit against Public.Resource.Org?
17

A

16:43

It was probably if -- my understanding, it

16

16:48

A

16:42

I don't know everyone that was in attendance 16:43

17 at that meeting.

16:47

18 was after conversations that Jeff Littleton would have 16:45

18

19 had with his counterparts at ASTM and NFPA.

19 in the document were at that meeting?

20

Q

And by that, do you mean the leadership of

21 ASTM and NFPA?
22

16:47

A

16:48

20

16:41

I mean those with a similar title, not --

16:43

22

24 staff person may be named C -- CEO or CFO instead of
25 executive VP. I can't remember what the titles of

2

Q

4

A
Q

24

1

I would only know the ASHRAE person, which

Q

So you don't know the names of any PR firms

A

Q

16:41
Page 184

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

2 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1191.
MR. FEE: Matt, if these relate to

16:45

Why is it that ASHRAE was considering a PR

16:42

16:42

4

public relations, the firms or anything

that's involving ASTM, I would like to have a

6

chance to review the documents before you

7

16:41

16:45

have any questions on them. You haven't

16:45
16:45
16:45

MR. FEE: Objection.

16:42

8

provided me with any copies throughout the --

9

To the extent that that calls for

16:42

9

the course of the day.

16:45

16:45

16:42

10

16:42

11

and your co-counsel had not been in

12

attendance at the previous ASHRAE deposition,

13

I did not expect that you are going to be in

14

attendance at this particular deposition. I

10

disclosure of any common interest privilege

11

communications, I would instruct you not to

12

disclose those and ask that your lawyer

16:42

13

instruct you not to disclose those as well.

16:42

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection, and

16:42

16:45

16:45

5

16:41

16:41

16:46

8

14

16:43

16:44

No, I do not.

3

16:41
Sometime after the -- the SMACNA thing in

7 campaign in conjunction with the lawsuit?

16:48

16:41

16:43
25 (Exhibit 1191 marked for identification.)
Page 182

16:41

5 2012, so my guess is late 2012.
6

A

Do you know which PR folks as is referenced

23 that attended that meeting?
16:47

And do you know when that conversation took 16:41

3 place?

Q

21 would have been Jodi Scott and Aman -- and Amanda Dean. 16:45

23 they're -- whatever they're -- they don't -- their head 16:45

1 their head person are.

16:48

16:41

MR. BECKER: My apologies. Because you

16:45

16:45
16:45

16:45
16:45

15

I'll instruct you not to -- not to disclose

15

do not have additional copies to provide

16

anything that would involve communications

16:42

16

you.

17

with counsel for ASHRAE or counsel for the

16:42

17

MR. FEE: That's fine. You're just

16:45

18

other SDOs who would have been involved in

18

going to have to wait until I read it; that's

16:45

19

those conversations.

19

all.

20

16:42

16:42

16:42

THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the

21

question?

22

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Why is it that ASHRAE was

24 lawsuit?
MR. FEE: Same objections.

16:45
MR. BECKER: You can read over his

21

23 considering a PR campaign in conjunction with the
25

20

16:42

16:42
16:42

16:42

shoulder.

22

Q

25

16:42

16:45

16:46

(BY MR. BECKER) Do you recognize this

23 document?
24

16:42

16:45

16:45

MR. FEE: Hold on. Let me read the
document before you ask any questions about

Page 183

16:46

16:46
16:46
16:46
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it. Whenever you're done.

16:46

2 (Discussion off written record.)
3
4

MR. FEE: Okay. Go ahead.
Q

1 (Exhibit 1192 marked for identification.)

16:46

2

16:47

16:50

(By MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 16:57

3 marked as Exhibit 1192. Do you recognize this

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, do you

5 recognize that document?

Q

16:47

16:47

4 document?

16:59

16:52

5

Yes, I do.

Q

And what is that document?

16:47

8

A

This is an email that came for -- came from 16:47

16:47

9 ANSI. The -- I'm never going to remember what this

16:47

Q

Okay. And what is this document?

7

A

7

Yes.

6

6

A

16:53

A

This is an email exchange between Claire

16:55
16:58

8 Ramspeck and I about seeing if I can become a member of 16:52
9 IPRPC. At that time, it was past the time where they

16:59

10 acronym stands for, but it's from the IPRPC or sent to 16:47

10 approved the membership, and I indicated that I was on 16:53

11 the IPRPC from Patricia Griffin, who's the counsel for 16:47

11 the -- on the Listserv already. And then there's a

12 ANSI. And this is about her testimony before the

12 thing at the top about -- an update from IPRPC.

16:47

16:56
16:51

13 committee on the judiciary subcommittee on courts, IP 16:47

13

14 and Internet.

14 Exhibit 1192, Ms. Ramspeck writes to you, "Please look 16:51

15

16:47

And then she provided a link to the live

16:47
16:48

16:48

18 online. And then there are some responses from
20 forwarded this on to Jeff Littleton's and Claire's
21 attention.

16:48
16:48

Q
A

It's a -- I always have to look up this

16:59

A

That's correct.

16:51

18

Q

And then she says, "I think there are issues 16:52

19 that we need to be tracking, and it will let you use
21 Monday."

What is the IPRPC?

23

16 to the subject line "IPRPC"; is that correct?

16:48

22

16:49

16:51

What was Ms. Ramspeck referring to when she

23 says "there are issues that we need to be tracking"?

24 acronym. It's like a policy committee, like it's -- I 16:49

24

1

issues, legal issues, some of that stuff is

2 along that line.

2

16:57

included in the IPRPC that would be of

3

Q

And who is a member of the IPRPC?

16:41

3

4

A

There's lots of people that are members. I'm 16:44

4

Q

16:47

6 You can ask to be put on the Listserv and be provided
8

Q

16:53

A

16:49

(BY MR. BECKER) And did you have a meeting 16:53

6

A

8

Q

16:53

I don't remember. I'd have to look at my

16:53

16:53

For the second email from the top in that

16:53

9 chain, Ms. Ramspeck writes to you and says, "Did you

As far as I know, anyone can send a note into 16:52

11 ANSI and ask to participate.

16:53

5 with Ms. Ramspeck that following Monday?
7 calendar.

Can anyone ask to be put on the Listserv and 16:45

9 be provided information?
10

16:49

16:44

16:54

Q

Could you name other members of the IPRPC?

13

10 know that there has been a big increase in the number 16:53

A

Not off the top of my head, because they

16:53

16:58

13 any updates on that yet."

15 but --

15 Public.Resource.Org in that statement?

16:56

17

A

She is the staff liaison.

18

Q

What does that mean, staff liaison?

19

A

That means she's the person that -- there

16:57

16:59

16:54

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.
THE WITNESS: Yes.

16:57

(BY MR. BECKER) Was Ms. Ramspeck's purpose 16:54

20 of Public.Resource.Org?

16:54

21

22 provide the agendas, help get the materials around,

16:59

22

23 provide -- draft things to send to the committee. I

Q

16:54

16:54

19 in asking you to join the IPRPC to follow the actions 16:54

21 Elizabeth Neiman, but usually they're the ones that

25 staff liaisons at ANSI.

16:54

16
18

16:52

20 might be one other person there that works with her,

24 don't have a description for all the duties of the

Was Ms. Ramspeck referring to

17

16:52

16:54

16:54

14

Is Patricia Griffin a member of the IPRPC?

16:54

12 beginning in January? I'm not sure if IPRPC has had

14 aren't people that I normally work with everyday so -- 16:51
Q

16:53

11 of copyrighted docs, including ASHRAE standards

12

16

16:59
Page 188

16:53

interest to ASHRAE that we track.

5 just an observing member; I am not a voting member.

16:51

THE WITNESS: Things like just copyright

1 looking. It's Intellectual Property Rights; something 16:48
16:47

16:58

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form.

25 can never remember what the acronym stands for without 16:49
25
Page 186

7 information.

16:54

20 your legal mind as well. Again, we can discuss more on 16:58

16:48

22

16:58

17

16:48

19 different members about the testimony. And then I

In the earliest email on that chain on

15 into getting involved with this ASAP," and that refers 16:56

16 stream and links to Mr. Malamud's published written
17 testimony where it's posted online in an article

Q

16:54
16:52

23

16:54

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to form,
calls for speculation.

THE WITNESS: No. I had actually been

24

asked to join it a while back, just that my

25

16:54

schedule and my responsibilities didn't allow

Page 187

16:54

16:54
16:54
16:54
16:54
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for time at the time.

2

Q

1

3 was -- that Ms. Ramspeck was referring to

4 Public.Resource.Org when she said "Did you know that

16:56

5 there has been a big increase in the number of

16:59

6 copyrighted docs beginning in January"?

16:51

7

A

Because I knew about the SMACNA things, and

16:57

8 so staff was watching to see what copyrighted documents 16:52
9 were out there, if they belonged to ASHRAE.
10

Q

post it after the public review period has

4

ended. And I've sent letters to ask them to
remove it, and they are removed.
Q

16:53
16:56
16:58

(BY MR. BECKER) Is ASHRAE aware of

16:56

7 infringement or potential infringement on file-sharing 16:59
8 websites of ASHRAE standards?

16:53

9

16:56

16:57
16:51

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

10

16:56

And so there was sufficient discussion of

without seeking permission from me first to

6

16:52

our Standard 188 posted on company websites

5

16:50

2
3

16:58

(BY MR. BECKER) How did you know that she

THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of those.

16:55
16:57

11 Public.Resource.Org in February of 2013 that without

16:59

11

MR. BECKER: We can take a break here.

12 even referencing Public.Resource.Org, you knew that

16:54

12

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

13 Ms. Ramspeck was referring to Public.Resource.Org?

16:58

13

14

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to the form.

16:51

14 (Recess taken.)

15

THE WITNESS: At that time, we would

16
17

would have known that's what she was

18

referring to.

19

Q

21
22

16:59

Q

17:19
17:24

17:26

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, could you

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection.

24

THE WITNESS: It's -- it's dealing with

Okay.

Q

Ms. Reiniche, does ASHRAE claim to be the

17:28
17:20

23 author of standard -- of the editions of Standard 90.1 17:24

16:56

24 that are listed in Exhibit 1176?

16:59

intellectual property mostly, things -- or

A

22

16:55

17:26

17:27

21

16:54

25

16:52

17:20

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to the

17:27
Page 192

Page 190
1

things like patents and some, I guess, quasi

2

legal things.

3

Q

16:56

5
7

form.

2

(BY MR. BECKER) How much of the discussion 16:56
16:56

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

6

1

16:56

4 in IPRPC relates to Public.Resource.Org?
THE WITNESS: On the items I have either
participate remotely on their calls, minimal.

9

Q

Q

17:28

(BY MR. BECKER) And does ASHRAE claim to be 17:20

5 listed in Exhibit 1175?
16:56

17:28

6

16:56

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

7

16:56

8

3

17:27

THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 the author of the 1993 ASHRAE Handbook: Fundamentals as 17:22

16:56

seen in email or when I've been able to

THE WITNESS: Yes.

8

(BY MR. BECKER) Is ASHRAE concerned about

16:57

Q

17:21
17:27

(BY MR. BECKER) Is ASHRAE the sole author of 17:28

9 these works?

17:20

10 alleged copyright infringement by other entities other 16:57

10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

11 than Public.Resource.Org?

11

THE WITNESS: It's the members of the

12
13

16:57

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to scope and
to the form.

14

16:57

17:20
17:27

project committee as -- as part of their

membership that agreed to write the document

14

16:57

12
13

16:57

THE WITNESS: Of course. We don't -- we

17:25

19 are the certificates of registration from the copyright 17:22
20 office.

16:52

23
25

16:52

18 please refer again to Exhibits 1175 and 1176. Those

16:51

MR. FEE: Objection, lack of
foundation.

at 17:24.

17

16:59

16:50

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record

16

16:56

(BY MR. BECKER) What is the purpose of the

20 IPRPC?

15

16:55

have discussed Public.Resource.Org, and I

at 16:58.

16:57

17:29

and -- and have it attributed to ASHRAE.
Q

17:23
17:25

15

don't allow other people to post copyrighted

16:57

15

16

material or anywhere else. If -- when we're

16:57

16 project committee are not employees of ASHRAE, correct? 17:20

17

made aware of it, we ask for it to be

18

removed.

19

Q

16:57

21
22

17

(BY MR. BECKER) Where has ASHRAE seen

16:57

THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not privy to
every single time. I don't -- it's not

24

related to 90.1, but I know that there have

25

been public review drafts of, for example,

That's correct.

Q

And so what is the basis for ASHRAE's claim

21
22

16:57

THE WITNESS: As a basis of the signed
sign when they apply for membership, that the

25

16:57

copyright assignments that all the members

24

16:57

commenters sign when they submit a comment

Page 191

17:25

17:26

23

16:57

17:28

17:21

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to the form,
calls for a legal conclusion.

17:29

17:23

19 that it's the author of these works?
20

16:57

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

23

16:57

A

18

16:57

20 infringement of its standards?

(BY MR. BECKER) And the members of the

17:20
17:22
17:25
17:29
Page 193

49 (Pages 190 - 193)
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1

and that the members that submit change -- or

17:21

1

2

the public that submits change proposals sign

17:26

2 for sure from Saturday, January 24th, 2004. Then

3

when they submit a change proposal

4

Q

(BY MR BECKER) Has ASHRAE ever compensated 17:24

6 sale of any of the works at issue?
A

No

8

Q

Ms Reiniche, is the project committee for

6 And from Monday, January 26, 2004.

9 Standard 90 1 in charge of the selection and

17:23

8?

Yes

12

Q

Is anybody else responsible for the selection 17:23

17:28

13 and arrangement of standard -- of the content of

Q

Yes. Section 10 on page 8 includes the

14 has one customer that it has failed to fulfill the

17 the formatting in terms of, you know, the two-column

17 to be a customer?

17:22

18 format, it could switch from one to two column after

20

And who made the decision to switch it from

A

It would be one customer.

17:38

Q

17:31

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

That would have been Steve Comstock would

23 what this document is?

17:21

24

17:24

25 originally one column When they go out for public

A

17:33

25 summary combined -- compiled by Valerie Block, the

17:27

3 have to mess with the formatting
4

1 chair of the 90.1 marketing committee.

17:20

2 for people to read one column, you know, and we don't

2

17:22

17:38
Page 196

4

17:29

5 switched to a two-column format for publication

17:33

And can you tell me what the purpose of this 17:32

3 questionnaire summary was?

17:25

Then because of the length, I believe they

Q
A

17:35

The purpose of -- of the questionnaire or the 17:36

5 summary -- summary?

17:21

17:34

This document is an ASHRAE 90.1 questionnaire 17:34

Page 194
1 review, we put it in one column, because it's easier

17:38
17:30

22 This is Bates number ASHRAE0006892. Can you tell me

17:28

24 have decided to -- I believe the standard was

A

17:35

21 you a document that has been marked as Exhibit 1194.

17:24

17:37

Does ASHRAE consider the Department of Energy 17:33

19 (Exhibit 1194 marked for identification.)

17:20

17:23

22 one column to two column?
23

18

17:26

19 public review is done by public -- our publications

17:32

15 needs of, and that is the Department of Energy, DOE."

17:24

16

Q

17:30

13 for Standard 90.1. Chris stated that the subcommittee 17:37

17:27

16 arrangement, they're not going to change the order, but 17:20

21

17:39

12 discussion included the question of who is the customer 17:33

17:23

The selection of the content, no The

20 department

17:33

17:39

11 it says in the second and third sentence, it says, "The 17:39

A

A

And could you please turn to page 8?

A

10 marketing task force ad hoc subcommittee update. And

17:28

11

15

Q

9

17:27

17:35

17:30

8

17:26

10 arrangement of the content of Standard 90 1?

17:34
17:31

4 meeting on Sunday, January -- January 25th, 2004. Hang 17:35

7

7

17:38

5 on. They usually have more than -- another meeting.

17:26

17:23

14 Standard 90 1?

These are the minutes from the 90.1 meeting

3 from -- and it also includes the minutes from the

17:29

5 any of the members of the project committee for the

A

17:39

6 And -- and that's -- that's why they did it, so the -- 17:24

6

Q

Of the summary itself.

7 your printed copy isn't, you know, 3 inches thick

7

A

It was to give information to the committee

17:32

8 on what -- the opinions of the users of the standard

17:37

8 versus an inch and a half thick
9

Q

17:29

17:24

So when you say two-column format, you mean

9 were.

17:27

17:31

17:31

10 the text appears in two columns on the page, as opposed 17:28

10

Q

And which committee was that?

11 to just being a single column on the page?

11

A

90.1.

12

A

That's correct

13

Q

17:23

17:32

17:33

12 (Exhibit 1195 marked for identification.)

17:25

And is that the only change in arrangement

13

17:23

Q

17:38

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

17:38

14 that's performed by ASHRAE staff?

17:27

14 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1195. Bates labeled 17:30

15

17:20

15 ASHRAE0024267. Do you recognize this document?

A

By publications, they might correct the

17:23

16 numbering of a section if the committee changed
17 something and the numbering was off, but it's just to
18 make it format correctly for -- on the publication
19 side

Q

A

This is -- yes.

17:25

17

Q

And can you tell me what this document is?

18

A

This is a document where the president of

17:28

17:35

17:30
17:32
17:39

19 ASHRAE was asking for the committee on utilities and

17:23

20 (Exhibit 1193 marked for identification )
21

16

17:38

20 energy to consider a building energy labeling program
17:30

17:33

21 that was being developed by ASHRAE. This is the

17:24

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

17:38

22 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1193 This is Bates 17:31

22 building energy quotient, but it's not -- it's not a

23 number ASHRAE0001628 Do you recognize this document? 17:37

23 90.1 tool.

24

A

Yes

24 (Exhibit 1196 marked for identification.)

25

Q

Can you tell me what this document is?

17:33

25

17:35

Q

17:36

17:31
17:34

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

Page 195

17:34
Page 197

50 (Pages 194 - 197)
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1 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1196, ASHRAE Bates
2 number 0024287. Do you recognize this document?

17:35
17:39

1 meeting with different organizations in Washington,
2 D.C.
3

17:30

Q

17:41

17:41
And when you say what would have been an

17:41

3

A

Yes.

4

Q

And could you tell me what this document is? 17:32

4 ASHRAE leadership meeting with different organizations 17:41

5

A

This is a letter from -- who would have been 17:34

5 in Washington, D.C., do you mean it was a meeting that 17:41

6 the president of ASHRAE at the time in 2009, Gordon

17:38

7 Holness, to President Obama talking about as we're

17:33

8 working towards energy efficiency, where we have agreed 17:31
9 to try to -- the project committee to be 30 percent

12

8

Q

Is it clear to you who the participants of

17:42
17:42

MR. FEE: Can I see this document before
you get into this any further?

17:42

17:42

12

17:35

16 considering using the building EQ program.

17:38

17 (Exhibit 1197 marked for identification.)

17:39

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

19 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1197. Do you
20 recognize this document?

17:33
17:34

17:37

21

A

Yes.

17:30

22

Q

And can you tell me what this document is?

23

A

This is an ASHRAE Facts and Stats document

17:31

24 that D.C. folks would leave with congressional staff

17:35
17:39

ASHRAE side, based on this email, that Lynn

15

Bellenger, Ron Jarnigan, Tom Watson, Jeff

16

Littleton, Doug Read, and Mark Ames would
have been at these meetings. Some of them I

18

can -- it appears from this that OSTP had

19

Kevin Hurst there.

20

17:36

15 implementing the executive order, that they look at

THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell from the

17

17:32

Okay.

13
14

17:39

14 use of buildings and to ask that the -- while they're

25 members.

17:41

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) That's fine if you --

21

And it also mentions our Building Energy

Q

Yes.

11

17:34

13 Quotient BEQ program that provides people with energy

18

A

10

17:31

11 Standard 90.1 to the 2010 version.

17:41

7

9 this meeting would have been?

17:35

10 more energy efficient from 2004, version of

6 did occur?

17:42

A

I mean, I would have to -- I mean, some of

17:42
17:42
17:43
17:43
17:43
17:43

17:43
17:43
17:43

22 them I can tell that -- you know, who was there, I can 17:43
23 tell which organizations were there, but some I can

17:43

24 tell by the way the notes were written who was there, 17:43
25 and some I cannot. I can -- if it would be easier, I 17:44

17:37
Page 198

1

Q

3

A

Just to give you a -- give them information

5 about our standards, our research program,

Q

Yes, if you could say which organizations.

A

So -- and this -- my recollection of the

17:46

5 one meeting, so they weren't all in one meeting

17:48

6 together, so these would have been notes from all of

17:33

7 their meetings.
8

17:39

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

17:46
17:40

4 leadership meetings, typically it's more -- more than

17:33

17:30

17:37

8 (Exhibit 1198 marked for identification )

Q

3

17:31

6 publications, continuing education; just ASHRAE as a
7 whole

17:44

2

17:30

4 about what ASHRAE is, what our expertise is in, and

9

1 can tell you what organizations appears.

And what was the purpose of leaving this with 17:37

2 congressional staff members?

Page 200

17:40

17:42

So they would have talked with the EPA,

17:45

9 DOE -- sorry, the page is sticking -- FEMP, NEMA, ASE, 17:48

17:34

10 you what's -- what's been marked as Exhibit 1198, Bates 17:35

10 AHRI, NASEO, N-A-S-E-O, and that looks to be it.

11 number ASHRAE0024393 Do you recognize this document? 17:30

11

12

A

Yes

12 are -- that are listed as individual acronyms at the

13

Q

And what is this document?

14

A

This is another sort of fact sheet type thing 17:39

17:37

19

Q

A

Right.

15

17:32

17:41

Q

And would those have been separate meetings

16 with each individually?

17:36

17

17:31

18 (Exhibit 1199 marked for identification )

17:40

17:40

14

15 that ASHRAE does to educate the staff members of the

17 and our views on how to get there

Okay. So it's all of the organizations that 17:48

13 top of each paragraph section?

17:37

16 legislature about ASHRAE's role in energy efficiency

Q

17:42

A

17:44

17:46

Some of them could have been clumped

17:47

18 together, some of them could have been separate. It's 17:41

17:33

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

19 hard to tell from this email string how those occurred. 17:43

17:42

20 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1199 This is Bates 17:45

20 But sometimes they have it where they're going to meet 17:49

21 labeled ASHRAE0024624 Do you recognize this document? 17:40

21 with these three organizations and then these three

22

A

Yes

22 organizations; something like that.

23

Q

And what is this document?

24

A

These are -- this is an email that shows the 17:42

17:40

23 (Exhibit 1200 marked for identification.)

17:41

25 notes from what would have been an ASHRAE leadership

24
17:45

Q

17:42

17:44
17:49

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 17:45

25 marked as Exhibit 1200. This is Bates labeled

Page 199

17:46
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1 ASHRAE0026916. Do you recognize this document?

17:42

1

A

For 90.1, I would say it's another full-time 17:56

2 job for the volunteers that work on that, with the

17:40

17:59

2

A

Yes, this looks -- yes.

3

Q

And could you tell me what this document is? 17:43

3 amount of hours they spend on subcommittee calls where 17:51

4

A

This -- this appears to look like a proposal 17:46

4 they're drafting the -- where smaller groups are

17:55

5 to -- to get some funding -- it's not clear from him -- 17:49

5 drafting it based on the expertise of the different

17:58

6 for the development of a new course for code officials 17:47

6 chapters within 90.1, in addition to meeting four times 17:50

7 that specifically gives them information that's useful 17:43

7 a -- four times a year face-to-face, full subcommittee, 17:55

8 to them when they need to verify compliance with the

8 full project committee members -- meetings for four

17:47

9 days straight from 8 in the morning until 10 at night. 17:52

9 standard for the purposes of receiving federal funding. 17:41
10 (Exhibit 1201 marked for identification.)
11

Q

10 It's a huge time commitment for those volunteers.

17:40

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 17:44

12 marked as Exhibit 1201. It's Bates labeled

16
17
18

14

MR. CUNNINGHAM: We'd like a minute to
review this one, Matt.
Q

19

17:46

17:55

And he says, "particularly those that are

17:53
17:57

A

17:52

Because usually when it's something that's

17:57

15 going to be adopted into law and it's going to be a

17:59

16 major change, it -- it generates a lot of comments, not 17:52

17:47

Go ahead.

Q

17:49 13 are adopted into law that take time and resources?

17:47

15

11

12 adopted into law." Why is it particularly those that

17:45

13 ASHRAE0029650. Could you tell me what this document
14 is?

17:59

17 just one or two, talking 50 to a hundred lengthy

17:40

(BY MR. BECKER) Have you reviewed it?

17:40

MR. CUNNINGHAM: We have, correct. Yes.

20

THE WITNESS: Okay. This is a -- an

21

email that Jeff Littleton sent to the ASHRAE

22

board of directors letting them know about

23

a -- about Public Resource shipping 25 copies

24

of 73 different standards made by 10 or so

25

different organizations. This did not

17:41

17:56

18 comments, because people in -- in the industry have

17:52

19 different opinions and the committee has to listen to

17:55

20 those, look at the -- whatever technical justification 17:58

17:45

21 they submit, determine if -- if what they're submitting 17:51

17:46

22 is cost justified, looking at, you know, what the

17:49
17:42

23 change would do, and if that's truly what's being done 17:50
24 in the industry.

17:48

25

17:42

17:56

17:53

So what -- the more significant the change,

17:54

Page 202
1

include ASHRAE.

2

1 the longer it takes to get something through the

17:44

And sent it to -- purportedly sent it to

Page 204

Q

17:58

And are there other reasons why the standards 17:52

media, Congress, Federal Trade Commission,

4

including salaries of the CSOs of those

5

organizations, and then indicating that

17:48

5 resources?

6

they're going to post those online on

17:40

6

7

May 1st.

9

17:41

3

3

8

4 that are adopted into law would take greater time and

17:44

Appears a member of the board responded

17:46

back to Jeff asking why ASHRAE standards
he -- he doesn't know, but right now they're

12

happy to let someone else fight the battle

13

since we're not included.

14

Q

17:40

aren't included, and Jeff reported back that

11

I suppose that when you're -- if you define

17:50

8 takes to present those changes to the code, to the

17:54

9 testimony. Again, that's almost another full-time job, 17:57
11 talking about the issues.

17:46

12

17:49

Q

17:55

And are those code hearings before

13 governmental bodies?

17:42

14

A

They're by code bodies.

Q

Code bodies. And what do you mean by "code

16 bodies"?

A

Correct.

17

17:55

Q

So ASHRAE was at the very least aware of

18 Public Resource in March of 2012, correct?

17:56
17:52

17:53

A

Correct.

17:56

20

17

A

International Code Council, NFPA, IATMO.

18

Q

Does that also include time and resources

Q

And Mr. Littleton says at the top of the page 17:52

20

A

22

17:52

21 regulations or federal law.

22 particularly those that are adopted into law, takes

17:59

23 time and resources that someone must underwrite."

17:52

Can you tell me about the time and resources 17:58

Q

Would it also include time and resources when 17:58

A

Yes, if -- if people are aware it's -- it's

25 happening.

17:52

17:54

23 it's going into state regulations or state law?
24

17:57
17:52
17:58

It could, if it's going into federal

21 in the middle of the paragraph, "Developing standards, 17:56

17:54

17:56

19 spent working with government officials?

19

25 that are required to develop standards?

17:50
17:52

15

17:50

17:54

16

24

17:57

10 the amount of time people spend at those code hearings, 17:51

17:43

(BY MR. BECKER) And this is in March 2012,

15 correct?

A

17:55

17:53

7 laws including the codes, then there's the time it

17:44

10

17:56

2 standards development process.

17:46

Page 203

17:51
17:55

17:58
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1 (Exhibit 1202 and Exhibit 1203 marked for
2 identification )

1 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1205. Could you tell 18:00

17:53

2 me what this document is?

17:59

18:07

(BY MR BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 17:59

3

4 marked as Exhibits 1202 and 1203 1202 is Bates number 17:50

4

5 ASHRAE0024591 And 1203 is Bates number ASHRAE0024592 17:52

5

6

6

from -- it starts with -- from Bruce Wilcox

18:04

17:56

7

talking about the -- what was adopted in

18:00

Number 1202 is an email that came from

8

California in regards to Standard 62.2 and

18:02

9

asking for permission to maybe get use of the

3

Q

Ms Reiniche, could you tell me what these

7 documents are?
8

A

17:53

17:58

9 Senator Portman's staff to Mark Ames and other

17:56

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection as the
last document.

18:00

18:01

THE WITNESS: It appears to be an email

18:01

18:07

10 organizations, like UTC, AHRI, NEMA, Snyder Electric,

17:51

10

material in the user's manual or for

18:01

11 JCI, IA -- IALD, ANSI, DWGP, ASE, and NAIOP

17:53

11

training, and then Jodi replying that it's

18:04

12

officially adopted, and meaning that Standard

13

62.2 is now mandatory in California.

12

And it references the document that's labeled 17:58

13 Exhibit 1203, which is a proposed revision to the

17:53

Q

19 please tell me what this document is?

17:51

17:58

20

A

I need a second to read it

21

Q

Take your time

17:58

22

A

So this is an email from Jodi -- well,

he says to members of SAC, that's the
standards advisory committee, and there was
something that he says, "Please see below."

20

18 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1204 Could you

18:08

18

17:50

18:05

longer exists within ASHRAE -- when it's --

19

(BY MR BECKER) Ms Reiniche, I'm handing

Ferguson to a committee -- this committee no

17

17:59

And then there is an email from Steve

16

17:50

17:55

16 (Exhibit 1204 marked for identification )
17

18:07

14
15

14 Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act of
15 2011

18:02

Q

18:00

22

17:59

23 it's -- was Jodi Dunlap at the time, it's now Jodi

There was a time when they had -- when ASHRAE 18:04

24 high-level issues related to standards. It could have 18:00

17:58

25 Ferguson about Standard 62 2 and its adoption And

18:01

18:02

23 had the standards advisory committee to just talk about 18:06

17:54

24 Scott -- to Steve Emmerich, Max Sherman and Steve

A

18:03
18:07

(BY MR. BECKER) What was the standards

21 advisory committee?

17:51

18:01

25 been adoption, it could have been membership issues.

17:55

18:05
Page 208

Page 206
1 that it was about to be adopted in California and

17:56

2 New York. And Steve Emmerich asked if anyone knew if
3 someone, meaning a member, might be close to the
4 happenings in New York.
5

1 It -- it was more like a policy-looking committee that 18:09
17:53

17:53

17:56

And Steve Ferguson replied that he knew a

2 reported to the ASHRAE board of directors.
3

Q

18:05

And when you say "adoption," do you mean

18:07

4 adoption by reference into codes legislation and
17:50

5 regulation?

18:09

18:05

6 member that was in New York that was helpful in getting 17:53

6

7 the 62.1 ventilation tables into the IMC and the New

7 things, so it could be any type of adoption. They

17:56

8 York State billing code, so he may know something.
9

And I'm not sure -- oh, and then it appears

17:51

11 personally, which is his boss at NIST.

17:53

17:58

12

THE WITNESS: "His boss at NIST."

14

THE COURT REPORTER: NIST?

15

THE WITNESS: N-I-S-T.

16

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll go ahead and lodge

18

several others we've seen today, does not

19

relate to any of the standards at issue here.

20

Q

I don't.

Q

Q

Simply for a clear record, the answer to my

12 question.

18:03

14 you mean adoption by reference into codes, legislation 18:06
16

18:09

17

THE WITNESS: Yes.

18:02

18

18:09

MR. FEE: Objection to form.

18:05

Q

18:01
18:03

(BY MR. BECKER) Thank you.

19 (Exhibit 1206 marked for identification.)
18:01

18:01

18:08
18:01

The question was, when you say "adoption," do 18:04

20

Q

18:04
18:05

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 18:08

21 marked as Exhibit 1206. Could you please take a moment 18:09
22 to read this document and tell me what it is?

18:07

23
18:03

24

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

25
18:08
Page 207

24 (Exhibit 1205 marked for identification.)
25

10

18:06

22 email?
A

18:05

15 and regulation?
18:08

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, do you know

21 who Michael Burnetter is that's referred to in this

18:02

13

18:08

a relevance objection to this document, like

23

17:59

17:59
18:08

17

18:00

8 didn't approve it; they -- they just talked about

11 question, was that a yes or a no? I'll repeat my

THE COURT REPORTER: "His boss at" what?

13

They -- their topics were any policy-related 18:06

9 policies on how -- and that kind of things.

17:57

10 that Steve Emmerich sent that email chain to Andrew

A

18:04

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to the scope and
relevance, seeing as how this again does not
relate to Standard 90.1 or any of the

18:06

18:09
18:01
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1

standards at issue here.

18:03

1

if we could get comp copies to send to HUD to

2

THE WITNESS: This email relates to

18:06

2

consider it, and Mark indicated that's

3

Standard 161-2007. That's indoor air quality

18:08

3

probably very likely

4

for commercial aircrafts. And it's about a

5

congressional committee considering an FAA

6

reauthorization bill and wants to know if --

7

if the members of 161 are supportive of this

8

bill.

9

Q

18:04

4

18:09

18:01

18:04
18:07

And then they ask for the -- where to

18:00

using the paper comment -- paper format, they

8

18:01

who I'm assuming is from HUD And instead of

7

18:06

send it, to Rhonda from -- Rhonda Dickerson,

6

18:01

5

18:03

sent a PDF copy that -- indicating it wasn't
to be distributed outside of the HUD

18:08
18:02

18:08

(BY MR. BECKER) And in the top email,

18:05

9

10 Mr. Weber's communication, he says, "Ladies and

18:01

10

manufacturing housing consensus committee and

11 Gentlemen, below is an email from Ryan Colker, manager 18:06

11

not to reprint without ASHRAE permission

12 of government affairs in the ASHRAE Washington office. 18:09

12

Q

13 ASHRAE is encouraging legislators to adopt ASHRAE

13 email; is that correct?

18:03

14 Standard 161-2007 and intends on sending the attached
15 letter early next week. Ryan would like to make the

18:07
18:03

18:12
18:15
18:18

(BY MR BECKER) You are a recipient of this 18:13

14

A

Yes

18:15
18:17

15

Q

What does HUD stand for?

16 SSPC aware of the intentions and would like to know if 18:07

16

A

Housing Urban Development

17 their organizations are willing to support the

17

Q

And is that a federal agency?

18

A

Yes

19

Q

Is it common for ASHRAE to provide copies of 18:10

18 adoption."
19

18:01

18:04

Is one of the roles of government -- ASHRAE's 18:09

20 government affairs office in Washington, D.C., to

18:02

21 encourage legislators to adopt ASHRAE standards?
22

A

If it's relevant to a bill that the

18:01

23 legislature is -- is drafting.
24

Q

18:06

18:08

18:11

21 considering incorporating that standard into

23

25 adopt ASHRAE Standard 90.1?

18:14
18:17

20 ASHRAE standards to members of government when they are 18:16

22 legislation or regulation?

Does that include encouraging legislators to 18:01

18:10

A

18:10
18:14

If it's been requested, we typically will

18:17

24 provide a copy for them to review, yes

18:04

25

Q

18:10

And that would be a complimentary copy,

18:13

Page 210
1

A

3

Q

1 correct?

If it's related to a legislation that they're 18:07

2 creating.

Page 212

2

18:00

So if -- for clarity, if the -- if standard

A

18:11

That is correct.

18:11

3 (Exhibit 1208 marked for identification.)

18:01

4

5 created, then the Washington office of ASHRAE might

5 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1208. This has been 18:11

6 encourage the adoption of Standard 90.1 into that
7 legislation?
8

A

18:03

18:08

Q

18:11

4 ASHRAE 90.1 is related to the legislation that's being 18:09

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

6 produced as ASHRAE0024209. Do you recognize this
7 document?

18:03

Yes, in consultation with ASHRAE leadership

18:05

8

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Object to this document

9

as it also appears to relate to standards

10

other than those that are at issue in this

18:12

case.

18:12

18:12

18:09

10 (Exhibit 1207 marked for identification.)

18:12

18:12

18:09

9 and those with relevant technical expertise.

18:11

(BY MR. BECKER) I'm handing you what's been 18:07

11

12 marked as Exhibit 1207. Could you please take a moment 18:08

12

13 to read this document and tell me what it is?

13

document.

14

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) And what is this document? 18:12

15

A

This is a document from Terry Townsend, who 18:12

11

14

Q

18:02

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection as the

15

last document. This is outside the scope and

16

irrelevant, as it doesn't relate to the

17

standards at issue.

18:02

18:03

18:12

THE WITNESS: Yes, I recognize the

18:12

18:12

16 would have been the president of ASHRAE in 2007, to

18:06

18

THE WITNESS: So this is an email where

18:05

18 about a draft report to Congress on server and

19

Mike Lubliner, who was involved in 62.2, said

18:09

19 datacenter energy efficiency.

20

he was talking with HUD and about having them

21

adopt 62.2 and asked -- and discussing with

22

Steve Emmerich, who I believe was the chair

23

at that time, about who could speak on that.

24
25

And then they asked Mark Weber if we
could -- who is the staff liaison for 62.2,

18:13

17 Andrew Fanara from EPA Energy Star Program. And it's 18:13

18:08

18:05
18:00
18:06

20

18:13

18:13

And he's talking about the -- how ASHRAE is 18:13

21 involved in that and the majority of this deals with

18:13

22 our technical committee 9.9, which is missing critical 18:13
23 facilities and the work they've done in the different 18:13

18:08

24 publications they have, thermal guidelines for data

18:13

25 processing equipment. And -- and then they had

18:03
18:07

18:13
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1 indicated that 90.1 was not relevant for cooling in
2 datacenters.
3

18:15

18:11

Q

Did you discuss the topics in the 30(b)(6)

18:10

2 notice with anyone other than counsel or Mark Ames or

And this was in 2000 -- 90.1-2004. So 90.1

18:12

4 was going to evaluate whether datacenters could be

3 Claire Ramspeck or Steve Ferguson?

18:19

5 included, and then talking about the metrics for

18:13

6 datacenter energy efficiency, they -- we had

18:17

7 recommended the use of datacenter efficiency, rather
8 than power usage effectiveness.
9

1

4

A

No.

5

Q

Did you create any notes or other documents

18:10

And then there's a list of different research 18:12

7

A

No.

Q

What research did you do to prepare yourself 18:11

18:18

9 to answer questions on the topics in the notice?
10

11 members of the technical committee 9.9.

18:14

11 ton of research, because I helped find a lot of

Q

13

Thank you.

18:10
18:16

A

Well, since I helped -- I didn't have to do a 18:12

18:11

13 most of that stuff I knew.

18:13

14 you did in preparation for this deposition today?

14

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'll go ahead and

18:10
18:11

Q

18:11

Did you review any documents to prepare for

15 deposition today?

16

counsel you not to -- you -- you can

17

obviously answer the question in terms of

18

when we met, how many times, how long, but

19

don't reveal any of the actual content of any

18:17

communications that you had with any

18:11

20

21

attorneys.

16
18:15

18:13

A

Only with legal counsel.

17

18:13

Q

Did any documents that you reviewed refresh

18:17

18:14

18:15

18 your memory as to any matter involved in the deposition 18:18
A

18:12
With -- that I reviewed with legal counsel or 18:14

21 that we --

THE WITNESS: I met on approximately

18:12

18:16

19 today?

20
22

18:15

12 material that we submitted as part of the discovery, so 18:18

Ms. Reiniche, could you please tell me what

15

18:14

8

18:17

10 projects that were attached, along with the list of the 18:16
12

18:11

6 or outlines in preparation for this deposition today?

18:12

18:17

22

Q

That -- that you reviewed with legal counsel. 18:18

23

three separate occasions with legal counsel

18:18

23

A

Yes.

24

to review potential questions that may be

18:11

24

Q

Could you identify which documents those

25

asked.

18:11

25 were?

18:16

18:12

18:14

Page 214
1

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) And did you communicate with 18:18

Page 216
1

A

2 anyone other than legal counsel in preparation for this 18:11
3 deposition?

3

Of this stack? Out of the stack you have

2 here?

18:14

18:16

18:10
MR. CUNNINGHAM: Matt, what exactly are

4

you trying to get at here? What's -- what's

5 office to make sure I understood the process for how we 18:12

5

the purpose of this line of questioning?

6 worked with the federal government and state and local 18:17

6

7 officials. I spoke with Claire Ramspeck about some of 18:11

7

document has refreshed her recollection, then

8 the questions that would have related to leadership

8

that's a document that we're entitled to know

9

about.

4

A

I -- I spoke with Mark Ames at our D.C.

18:17

18:15

9 meetings and Steve Ferguson to make sure I did not
10 misrepresent the code process.
11

Q

18:11

14

18:15

18:19

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm going to again

18:12

15

counsel that if you were seeking advice on a

16

topic that came out of a discussion with

17

counsel, then that would be covered under the

18

privilege. So don't reveal the substance of

19

any communications that occurred between you

20

and legal counsel.

21

additional conversations.

23

Q

25

A

18:15
18:19

Q

18:19

A

(BY MR. BECKER) Were there documents other

18:14

18:18

Not that I recall. I'm pretty sure

18:18

Q

21
23

18:13

Can you identify particular documents within 18:17

19 that stack that refreshed your recollection?

25
Page 215

18:11

18:13

17 everything we talked about is in these documents.

18:10

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Refreshed her
recollection as to what, Matt?

18:24
18:24

MR. BECKER: As to topics discussed in
the deposition today.

24

18:12
18:16

18:19

14 than those that you've been shown today that refreshed 18:16

22

18:11

(BY MR. BECKER) And you've reviewed the
Correct.

today? What's the --

20

18:17

24 topics in the 30(b)(6) notice, correct?

know about the documents you showed her

12

18

18:12

18:19
18:12

18:15

11

16

18:10

18:15

MR. CUNNINGHAM: You're saying you don't

15 your recollection?

18:13
18:18

THE WITNESS: There wasn't any other

22

18:13

13

Were there any other topics of discussion in 18:13

18:10

18:11

MR. BECKER: So the question as to if a

10

18:17

12 those meetings, other than the meetings with your
13 counsel?

18:13

18:17

THE WITNESS: Exhibit 1201.
Q

18:26

18:27
18:29

(BY MR. BECKER) And that was a document that 18:25
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1 you had reviewed prior to today?
2

A

3
4

Yes.

18:26

Exhibit 1191. That's it.
Q

5

1 green schools, specifically referencing ASHRAE Standard 18:25

18:29

2 189.1 and the IGCC. And they were going to consider

18:22

Thank you, Ms. Reiniche.

3 our edits, so he was asking for comments.

18:26

Could you tell me, are you familiar with a

4

18:27

6 group called the Corner Bakery Group?

5

18:21

THE COURT REPORTER: They weren't or
they were --

18:21

18:22

A

Yes.

8

Q

And what is the Corner Bakery Group?

9

A

It's a group of standards developers that

6

18:24
18:27

18:24

asking for comments, so Jeff responded with a

18:24

8

comment basic -- and then pulling myself and

18:28

9

18:24

THE WITNESS: They were -- they were

7

7

Claire Ramspeck and Steve Ferguson into the

18:21

10 meet in D.C. at the Corner Bakery, down the street from 18:29

10

11 ASHRAE, once a month to talk about issues of top -- you 18:24

11

encourage states to update their code minimum

12 know, that relate to standards development

12

to be compliant with the version of 90.1

13

recognized by DOE, which is EPAct.

18:28

13 organizations and have lunch.
14

Q

18:22

And does that tend to be the D.C. offices of 18:23

A

Yes.

17

Q

18:23

18:29

A

They have discussed it.

20

Q

And do they ever discuss this litigation?

21

A

Not this litigation in particular, no.

22

Q

And how is it that you're familiar with the

18:29
18:21

And they were considering a reference to

15

our 30 percent advance energy design guide
for K through 12 schools as a guidance
document. And then it looks like Mark sent

18:22

out all the comments in one document at the

18:26

very last email.

20

18:24

21

18:21

18:28

24

18:23

18:27

THE COURT REPORTER: "And they were

18:25

18:26

THE WITNESS: Comments.

23
18:25

18:22
18:27

going to consider our edits"?

22

18:24

That was part of my discussions with Mark

25 Ames.

18:25

14

19

18:23

19

A

18:29
18:22

17

18:29

Okay. And do they ever discuss Public

24

18:24

18

16

23 Corner Bakery Group?

conversation, suggesting that they also

16

15 the -- these standards development organizations?

18 Resource?

18:29

18:26

18:26

THE COURT REPORTER: "They were," is
what I'm --

25

18:26

18:26

THE WITNESS: Yes.

18:26

Page 218
1

Q

Does Mark Ames participate in the Corner

2 Bakery Group?

18:23

18:23

A

Yes.

4

Q

Does anybody else from ASHRAE participate in 18:23

6

A

18:23

8

Q

18:23
18:23

And are you familiar with an entity known as 18:23
18:23

A

No.

11

Q

Are you familiar with an entity known as

Q

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

8 recognize this document?

18:22
18:23

18:26

A

Yes.

18:26

Q

And what is this document?

A

This is an email that started from Tim Manz, 18:28

18:27

14

Q

Are you familiar with APCO Worldwide?

15

A

No.

12 who is -- was the Minnesota chapter president for

18:24
18:24

18:24

18:34

13 ASHRAE, that -- indicating that the Minnesota

No.

18:37

14 chapter -- or he was representing the Minnesota chapter 18:32
15 of ASHRAE at the State of Minnesota Mechanical Code

16 (Exhibit 1209 marked for identification.)

18:25

(BY MR. BECKER) Ms. Reiniche, I'm handing

18 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1209. Do you
A

6

18:24

11

18:24

18:24

A

20

18:29

9

18:24

13

19 recognize this document?

Correct.

10

10

Q

A

18:26

18:28

7 you what's been marked as Exhibit 1210. Do you

9 the Coalition for SDO Awareness?

17

4

18:26

(BY MR. BECKER) And you are a recipient of

5 (Exhibit 1210 marked for identification.)

18:23

12 FleishmanHillard?

THE COURT REPORTER: Okay.
Q

3 this email, correct?

Doug Read probably did when he was still

7 there.

1
2

3

5 the Corner Bakery Group?

Page 220

16 Advisory Committee, and he wanted to use several
18:25

18:25

18:25

This is an email from Mark Ames to what

17 sections from 90.1-2010 in the Minnesota Mechanical

18:36

18 Code and/or Minnesota Commercial Energy Code.

18:31

19
18:26

18:36
18:30

They were adopting the 2012 International

18:37

20 Mechanical Code and the 2012 International Energy

18:32

21 appears to be our -- our advocacy group at that time. 18:26

21 Conservation Code by reference with amendments, so my

22 And about a -- there was a national -- the national

18:26

22 assumption is he's asking to add these as the minutes

23 conference of state legislature has two -- had two

18:26

23 to that code.

18:32

24 policies that were of interest to ASHRAE relating to

18:26

25 greening the built environment and healthy efficient

18:27
25 Permissions, which is a general email inbox, and Mark
Page 219

24

18:35

18:39

And he sent that to -- well, to Publication

18:34
18:39
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1 Wills, who worked in the D.C. office at that time. And 18:33

1

2 then -- then Mark Wills sent that on to Steve Ferguson 18:37

2 document?

3 and myself and copied Claire and Doug Read.

3

A

This would have been drafted by Chris Mathis. 18:39

4

18:33

And then Steve Ferguson sent it on to Steve

18:39

Q

Do you know who would have drafted this

18:33

18:38

4

Q

Is Chris Mathis an ASHRAE employee?

5 Comstock to get permission to provide him, and then it 18:32

5

A

No.

6 would have been up to Steve Comstock -- there's

6

Q

Right before lunch, you were asked the

18:37

7 obviously something missing from this email.
8

Q

18:37

A

18:32

7 following question: Does ASHRAE believe that it --

By which you mean the -- the next email after 18:35

9 this?
10

18:31

18:33

18:37
18:36

8 that it owns copyright and contributions to Standards

18:38

9 90.1 or to the 1993 handbook by virtue of any other

Right. Right. So either Steve Comstock

18:37

18:31

10 means, other than the copyright releases that we

18:36

11 responded back with language to provide to Mr. Manz or 18:33

11 discussed today. Do you recall being asked that

18:38

12 he responded directly to Mr. Manz.

12 question?

13

Q

18:36

Does ASHRAE require that states or other

18:38

14 governmental bodies ask permission before reprinting
15 part of Standard 90.1 in their codes or regulations?

18:30

13

18:36

18:30

A

Yes.

14

Q

And when you answered that question, were you 18:31

18:30

15 answering with regard to ASHRAE's belief that it owns

18:34

16

A

If they're requesting portions of 90.1, yes. 18:37

16 copyrights generated by ASHRAE employees or by

18:30

17

Q

Does ASHRAE consider it to be copyright

17 third-parties?

18:30

18 infringement if a state were to publish part of

18:34

19 Standard 90.1 in their codes or regulations without
21
22

18:30

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Objection to the
form.

23

18

18:37

20 getting permission from ASHRAE?

18:33

THE WITNESS: It depends on how it's

25

IECC, we've already given permission through

Q

Today we've seen a number of documents that

18:39
18:32

A

1

Q

What standard would that have been?

2

A

189.1.

18:35
18:39

3 portion from the IECC, does that mean that ASHRAE would 18:32

3

4 consider it to be copyright infringement?

4

18:36

5

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Same objection.

6

THE WITNESS: Yes, if we know about it.

7

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Madam Reporter, may I

9

record goes?

18:30

inquire where we are, as far as time on the

10
11

left.

12

MR. BECKER: All right. Thank you very

18:38

MR. CUNNINGHAM: You can finish this

17

MR. BECKER: Oh, no, that's -- that's

18:30

document if you had more on this document.

19

18:31

18:36

Q
A

Okay.

18:35

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record
at 18:35.

(Deposition concluded at 6:35 p.m.)

10

18:35

18:35
--oOo--

18:35

18:35
18:35

12
13
15
16

19

23

18:36

24 Exhibit 1159, which you were shown earlier today.
25

MR. BECKER: I'd like to -- that's fine.

7

22

18:36

First, I would like to ask you to look at

6

21

18:36

22 BY MR. CUNNINGHAM:
23

18:34

20

18:37

EXAMINATION

18:34

18:34

18

18:35

questions, Ms. Reiniche, quickly.

MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. That's all
I have.

17

18:34

MR. CUNNINGHAM: I have just a few

21

18:34

18:34

14

16

20

18:36

18:30

fine.

Page 224

11

18:35

18:38

18:34

MR. FEE: I don't have any questions.

9
18:33

To another ASHRAE standard.

5

8

18:39

18:31

much.

15

18

18:36

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yeah, seven hours.

13
14

18:31

MR. FEE: We should have one minute

18:35

18:33

25
18:30
Page 222

(BY MR. BECKER) But if it's not part of a

18:36

21 standards or green building codes. When you were

24 ASHRAE standard?

18:36

8

18:34

23 reference generally to Standard 90.1 or to some other

18:34

done. If it's part of a reference from the

the IE -- ICC process.

By third-parties.

Q

22 talking about green building standards, was that a

24

2

A

19

20 addressed -- or where you mentioned green building

18:33

1

18:34

18:39

24
25

18:33
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1
CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF GEORGIA:
COUNTY OF FULTON:
3
I, SHARON A. GABRIELLI, HEREBY CERTIFY that
4 the foregoing deposition was taken down by me in
stenotype, and the questions and answers thereto were
5 transcribed by means of computer-aided transcription,
and that the foregoing represents a true and correct
6 transcript of the testimony given by said witness.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not kin or
7 counsel to the parties in the case; am not in the
regular employ of counsel for any of said parties; nor
8 am I in any way financially interested in the result of
said case.
9
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand this 10th day of April, 2015
10
11
_______________________________________
SHARON A. GABRIELLI, RPR
12
CCR-B-2002
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
--oOo-21
22
23
24
25
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[& - 122]
&
& 2:6,15 3:7 10:10
10:16 11:3 17:1
0
0001618 80:11
0002847 62:22
0022825 75:16
0024287 198:2
0024586 147:16
01215 1:3 9:24
02 62:1
03-01-2004 75:9
1
1 52:15 56:11 67:17
72:13 83:1 107:16
132:16 168:11
1/30/2006 75:5
10 4:6 67:22,23
112:3 196:9 202:24
204:9
101 2:17
107 5:25 6:4
1075 1:20 9:15
1076 51:8
10th 226:9
11 54:2 133:20
1111 2:8
1119 4:10 55:20,25
61:9
1120 4:12 55:20
57:2 61:11
1121 4:13 55:20
61:21
1122 4:14 62:2,5
1123 4:15 62:8,10
1124 4:16 62:14,16
1125 4:17 62:20,22
1126 4:18 63:1,3
1127 4:19 63:7,9
1128 4:20 63:13,15
1129 4:21 63:20,22
1130 4:22 64:2,4

1131 4:23 64:8,10
1132 4:24 65:1,3
68:14,17,22 69:14
1133 4:25 68:6,8,14
68:17
1134 5:3 69:18,20
73:15,16 75:8 81:17
83:1,4
1135 5:4 71:20,22
73:15,18,22 75:4
76:4 79:14,18,19
81:2 83:18 84:8,11
85:20,22 90:3
1136 5:5 74:7,9,23
76:1
1137 5:6 75:13,15
76:6,20
1138 5:7 76:10,12
77:15
1139 5:8 76:25 77:2
77:13,20 78:2,18,21
78:24 86:17
1140 5:9 78:5,7,13
78:22,25
1141 5:10 79:3,5,12
79:17,18 80:13
1142 5:11 80:8,10
1143 5:12 80:15,17
1144 5:13 81:4,6
82:7
1145 5:14 81:19,21
1146 5:15 82:9,11
83:5
1147 5:16 83:6,8
1148 5:17 83:20,22
84:11 85:5
1149 5:18 84:13,15
85:3
1150 5:19 85:7,9,19
1151 5:20 85:25
86:2,13,16 87:12,14
106:1
1152 5:21 86:20,21
87:8,11,15

1153 5:22 87:17,19
89:20,24 90:2,24
1154 5:23 90:7,9,20
1155 5:24 93:17
94:2 105:8
1156 5:25 107:13,16
107:17,24 108:8
109:17
1157 6:4 107:13,16
107:18 108:3,8
109:24 110:20
113:4
1158 6:5 117:10,12
1159 6:6 122:2,4
223:24
1160 6:7 127:19,21
1161 6:8 131:3,5
1162 6:9 134:4,6
1163 6:10 136:22,24
1164 6:11 148:5,7
149:5 150:14
1165 6:12 148:23,25
149:8 151:13
1166 6:13 153:2,4
1167 6:14 154:13,15
1168 6:16 155:5,7
1169 6:17 155:15,17
117 6:5
1170 6:18 155:25
156:2,25 157:8,19
158:4
1171 6:19 156:20,22
157:8,19
1172 6:20 157:3,5
157:19
1173 6:21 157:15,17
1174 6:22 157:24
158:1
1175 6:23 158:6,8
192:18 193:5
1176 6:24 159:3,5
192:18,24
1177 6:25 159:22,24
1178 7:3 162:20,22

1179 7:4 163:8,10
1180 7:5 164:1,3
1181 7:6 165:5,7
1182 7:7 167:2,4
1183 7:8 167:21,23
1184 7:9 169:11,13
1185 7:10 171:16,18
1186 7:11 173:17,19
1187 7:12 174:18,21
174:24 175:6
1188 7:13 174:18,21
174:25 175:13
1189 7:14 177:12,14
119 55:25
1190 7:15 180:18,20
1191 7:16 184:25
185:2 218:3
1192 7:17 188:1,3
188:14
1193 7:18 195:20,22
1194 7:19 196:19,21
1195 7:20 197:12,14
1196 7:21 197:24
198:1
1197 7:22 198:17,19
1198 7:23 199:8,10
1199 7:24 199:18,20
11th 167:9
12 220:16
1200 7:25 201:23,25
1201 8:3 202:10,12
217:24
1202 8:5 206:1,4,4,8
1203 8:4 206:1,4,5
206:13
1204 8:6 206:16,18
1205 8:8 207:24
208:1
1206 8:10 209:19,21
1207 8:12 211:10,12
1208 8:14 213:3,5
1209 8:15 219:16,18
1210 8:16 221:5,7
122 6:6
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[127 - 5]
127 6:7
12th 3:10
13 8:13 69:4 112:17
166:21 167:1
130 175:16
131 6:8
134 6:9
136 6:10
14 112:22
148 6:11,12
14th 163:1
15 35:12 40:6,17
54:5
153 6:13
154 6:14
155 6:16,17,18
156 6:19
157 6:20,21,22
158 6:23
159 6:24,25
16 54:7
161 210:7
161-2007 210:3,14
162 7:3
163 7:4
164 7:5
165 7:6
167 7:7,8
169 7:9
16th 63:18 153:23
153:24 154:4
17 54:10
171 7:10
173 7:11
174 7:12,13
177 7:14
1791 15:23
17th 64:1
180 7:15
184 7:16
188 7:17 192:1
189.1 27:21 35:12
144:10 220:2
189.1. 225:2

19 17:14 54:13
97:25 153:16
195 7:18
196 7:19
197 7:20,21
1970 131:20
1975 98:1
198 7:22
1989 154:17
199 7:23,24
1993 91:17 92:15,24
93:5 158:13,20,25
177:5,6,8 193:4
224:9
1994 15:19 153:23
153:24
1998 16:13 154:19
1999 17:13 131:20
131:21 133:1
158:15
19th 62:7 64:14
1:13 1:3 9:24
1st 81:15 82:5 203:7
2
2 53:8,10 56:10 61:9
67:18 69:24 72:13
84:6 109:24 119:1
164:22 169:21
20 54:16 55:8 59:22
2000 165:2 214:3
20004 2:9
2001 65:7 68:23
69:12 105:23
2002 1:24 62:7
226:12
2003 17:23,25 18:10
62:13 66:13 155:13
155:22
2004 19:5 59:15
62:19 65:8 68:12,24
69:7,16,23 81:15
82:5 123:4 196:2,4
196:6 198:10

2005 62:25 68:13
91:4 150:23
2006 63:6 76:7
80:25 83:16 84:5
85:2 140:20 141:4
141:24 142:11
143:7 163:1
2007 59:15 60:2
63:12 76:23 85:18
134:12 165:12
170:2 213:16
2007/2008 168:2,24
169:17,22
2008 8:9,11 63:19
64:1 91:5
2009 8:13 64:7 78:4
86:10 87:5 167:9
198:6
2009/2010 171:22
201 7:25
2010 56:15,19,21
59:6,22 60:3,18
64:14 129:1 131:11
131:15,21 132:15
133:15 137:8
143:20 198:11
2011 206:15
2012 179:25 183:5,5
203:14,18 221:19
221:20
2013 59:4,25 190:11
2014 8:7 20:1,2
2015 1:18 9:12
226:9
202 2:10 8:3
2035289 1:25
206 8:4,5,6
207 8:8
209 8:10
21 54:16
211 8:12
213 8:14
219 8:15
21st 64:6

22 54:17
221 8:16
223 4:7
2300 2:18
23rd 62:13
2454 140:16
24th 196:2
25 54:19 202:23
25th 196:4
26 40:18 54:22
123:3 137:8 196:6
27 55:1
27th 62:19
28 8:9 55:3
29 8:7 55:4
3
3 53:15 56:5 67:18
131:17 195:7
3/94 153:22
30 1:13,18 50:8
51:10 52:8 60:23
144:2 175:21 176:8
176:15,24 178:8
198:9 215:24 216:1
220:15
30329 15:24
30th 9:12 76:7 80:25
83:16 84:5 85:2
318-1218 2:20
34 35:12
3625 1:21
3rd 63:12
4
4 8:11 52:5 67:19
161:1 162:13
40.1.3 154:17
41.3-1989 6:15
415 2:20 3:12
4th 63:5 68:13
5
5 53:23 67:20 78:14
87:7,10 106:3
110:21 163:20
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[5 - active]
164:20 167:11
5.1 163:21
5.1.2.2 163:24
50 21:16 50:10
144:2 204:17
55 4:10,12,13
555 3:9
583 146:23,25 147:1
584 146:24
5th 63:11 65:7 68:24
105:23 154:18
6
6 1:13 51:10 52:8
53:24 54:4 60:23
62:24 67:11 77:9,13
86:13 124:8 178:8
215:24 216:1
62 4:14,15,16,17
62.1 207:7
62.2 206:25 208:8
208:13 211:19,21
211:25
63 4:18,19,20,21
64 4:22,23
65 4:24
68 4:25
69 5:3
6:35 225:9
7
7 67:20 94:14
71 5:4
73 202:24
739-5353 2:10
74 5:5
75 5:6
76 5:7,8
78 5:9
79 5:10
7th 155:12,22
8
8 67:21 111:4 196:7
196:8,9 204:9

8/7 62:1
8/96 6:14
80 5:11,12
81 5:13,14
82 5:15
83 5:16,17
84 5:18
85 5:19,20
86 5:21
87 5:22
875-2389 3:12
89 17:14
9
9 67:25 68:5
9.9 213:22
9.9. 214:11
9/10/01 57:14
9/7/2001 57:11
90 5:23 17:14
123:24
90.1 12:11 22:6
27:20,22 29:15,18
29:20 30:11,19
31:14 32:10,11,15
32:18,22 33:7 35:12
35:13,20,24 36:15
36:19,24 37:3 46:2
47:5,7 56:20,21
57:3,25 58:7,10,14
59:3,6,16,22 60:2,7
60:18 61:12 62:1,6
62:12,18,24 63:5,11
63:18,25 64:6,13
65:7 68:12,23 69:12
69:16,23 91:17
92:14,24 93:4 96:9
97:14 98:1,6,9,16
98:22 103:10 104:2
104:7,8,14,15,19,25
105:3 106:6 109:3
110:10 111:8
113:15,17,24 114:2
114:6,9 116:19,20
117:1,5 120:24

121:1,2 123:24
124:3,18 125:2,11
125:20,22 126:1,9
126:18,25 128:6,10
129:10,16,19 130:5
130:7,14,16,25
131:10,13,19
132:15,20 133:22
134:1,24 136:6,13
136:18 140:22
141:3 142:5 144:9
144:12 145:8 151:7
151:11 152:13
153:13 159:1
162:18 163:1
171:14 172:10,24
173:9,24 174:13,15
191:24 192:23
194:9,10,14 196:1
196:24 197:1,23
198:11 204:1,6
209:25 210:25
211:4,6 214:1,3
220:12 222:15,16
222:19 224:9,23
90.1-1989 153:15,20
90.1-1999 153:16
154:11
90.1-2001 155:12,21
156:8
90.1-2004 140:20
141:9,18,20,23
142:6 143:6,8
150:20,25 159:21
90.1-2004. 163:4
214:3
90.1-2007 141:8
159:17
90.1-2007. 160:6
90.1-2010 159:13
221:17
90.1-2010. 141:11
90.1. 30:11 31:5,18
36:22 65:6 103:15
104:13 118:14

119:9 122:18 123:7
123:17 124:7
125:17 128:12,13
128:19 133:14
142:7 145:15
149:24 168:20
172:8,21,21 174:8
178:25 179:11
196:13 197:11
90.2 35:12 104:3
90.4 35:12 104:3
93 5:24
94 16:11
94104 3:11
94105 2:19
99 17:15 109:8
135:2
9th 76:23 85:18
165:12
a
a.m. 1:18
abide 120:19
ability 19:1
able 12:13,16 15:4
150:10,11 191:7
accept 38:24 71:4
73:10,14
acceptance 39:10
accepted 47:9 71:8
accepts 46:21 47:1
access 61:2 66:10
91:10 176:2,11
achieve 143:1
acronym 39:20
186:10,24,25
acronyms 32:2 41:6
201:12
act 28:17 30:7,8
43:3,8 140:16
142:23 206:14
actions 118:25
181:1 189:19
active 112:6

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[activities - application]
activities 52:16
119:16 144:7 146:4
147:17
actual 214:19
ad 118:17,21 196:10
add 14:15,16,21
93:23 221:22
added 91:2 96:18,19
111:1
addenda 96:21
160:5 163:3
addendum 69:23
74:14 75:21 81:11
82:2 84:2,20 161:2
161:4,23
adding 40:24
addition 25:20
41:18 59:6 148:13
149:9 204:6
additional 77:19,22
144:6 185:15
215:22
address 15:22
addressed 224:20
addresses 15:25
adds 77:23
administration
19:18
administrative
25:15 115:18
administrator 18:14
19:4,10,12
adopt 31:8,13 32:13
32:14 50:21 111:8
128:11 141:11
150:23 151:2,23
210:13,21,25
211:21
adopted 32:17 51:1
109:3 113:15
123:24,24 124:5
203:22 204:12,13
204:15 205:4 207:1
208:7,12

adopting 120:22
221:19
adoption 110:22
111:2,6,19,21
122:18 123:16,16
124:9,11 130:16
144:12 206:25
208:25 209:3,4,7,13
209:14 210:18
211:6
adoptions 123:15
144:8 145:7,8
advance 99:2,8
109:13,15 220:15
advancing 112:3
140:8
advantage 13:4
127:14,15
advice 215:15
advise 174:3
advisory 47:21
208:18,21,23
221:16
advocacy 219:21
advocate 140:21
145:7
advocated 142:10
affairs 115:10,13,14
115:17,25 116:6
128:22 148:2
210:12,20
affect 50:16 51:4
99:11,22
affiliated 65:19
162:7
affiliation 164:15
agencies 147:24
148:2 176:3
agency 105:19
212:17
agendas 187:22
ago 11:9,20 102:3
agree 9:9 87:25
88:11,16 89:1,10
91:8

agreed 193:13 198:8
agrees 56:23 157:14
ahead 72:10 186:3
202:17 207:16
214:15
ahri 201:10 206:10
aided 226:5
air 1:6,14 10:18
18:19 51:11 99:12
102:14 210:3
aircrafts 210:4
al 8:9,10 9:20
albuquerque 137:7
alleged 191:10
allow 74:3 89:1,11
189:25 191:15
allowed 72:19 73:6
alternative 33:4
aman 184:21
amanda 184:21
amended 51:9
amendments 221:21
american 1:3,5,13
9:19 10:17 34:6,7
35:8 45:1 51:10
140:15 142:22
ames 114:23 115:7
115:16 175:6
200:16 206:9 215:4
216:2 218:25 219:1
219:20
amount 89:8 101:19
141:13 204:3
205:10
andrew 8:6 207:10
213:17
angela 34:2
annual 135:16,17,19
ansi 6:14 21:14 43:2
44:13,13,18,24,25
58:25 104:15,25
105:3 110:22 111:3
111:5,18,20,22
114:11 154:16
155:11,21 159:12

159:16,20 160:6
163:4 186:9,12
187:11,25 206:11
ansi's 157:22
answer 59:14 60:24
147:4 184:6 209:10
214:17 216:9
answered 224:14
answering 224:15
answers 13:22,22,23
14:14 52:23 53:4
94:16 226:4
antithetical 124:11
anybody 33:17,21
45:14 194:12 219:4
anymore 112:24
anyway 13:19
apart 77:11
apco 219:14
apersily 8:10
apologies 94:3
185:10
appeals 20:25 67:22
appear 13:10 77:13
79:22 80:12 88:10
89:19 90:2 108:7
153:18 160:22
appearances 2:2 3:3
appeared 75:24
appears 68:14,17
90:18 108:3 123:2
151:15,17 165:2
175:2 177:20 179:1
195:10 200:18
201:1 202:4 203:8
207:9 208:5 213:9
219:21
apples 114:12
applicable 107:2
applicant 106:24
application 22:16
23:20,21 24:5 28:14
77:6 78:12 86:6
87:2 94:10 167:17
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[applications - ashrae0001610]
applications 24:3,4
28:1,17,19 29:12
95:9
applied 18:13
applies 53:3 166:21
apply 59:16 100:13
153:10 193:24
applying 24:6,16
appointed 40:7
appointments 40:16
approval 36:8 39:13
39:15 95:2
approve 26:8,17,17
26:20 42:4 95:4,14
95:25 161:2,4
171:10 209:8
approved 29:13
38:19 57:13 94:24
94:25 121:6 152:21
170:10 171:7,8
188:10
approves 26:21,22
approving 26:4,5
27:6 28:6 42:6,8
98:3
approximately 9:13
40:6 109:7 214:22
april 8:7,9 63:5
165:12 226:9
architects 119:2
area 29:25 43:23
102:15,17
areas 29:23
arena 50:19
arrangement
194:10,13,16
195:13
art 109:15
article 177:4 186:17
articulate 146:13
asap 188:15
ase 201:9 206:11
ashrae 2:14 6:13,14
11:17,18,23 12:2,5
12:9 18:4,6,9,12,16

18:23 19:4 20:10,13
20:18 24:19,22 27:9
28:2 29:9 30:18
32:22 33:13 34:8
40:1,2 42:19 46:9
47:16 48:8,10,18
49:19 50:13 52:8
56:7,12,13,15,16,17
56:23 58:19 59:5,21
60:18 61:9,23 62:22
64:15,18,20 65:22
66:11 68:12 70:7,10
70:17 71:1,4,7,12
71:16 72:15 73:4,4
73:10 75:15,20
76:17 77:11,25
78:11 79:1 80:2,10
81:11 82:2,20 84:2
84:20 85:14 87:1
88:3,24 91:2,13,16
91:17,21,24 92:4,15
92:16,22,24 93:3
94:11,21 96:9 97:6
97:8,13,14 98:20
99:8,18 100:7,8,14
100:18 101:11,12
101:13 103:21,22
104:7,12,13,15,19
104:25 105:3 108:2
108:6,17,21,24
109:14,17,25 110:3
110:7,12,15,18,18
110:22 111:3,3,5,17
111:22,25 112:7,15
113:4,5,9,14,16,21
114:9,13,25 115:8
115:15,24 116:1,5
117:24,25 118:2,15
118:19,20,23 119:4
119:10 120:13
121:1,2,6,8,14
122:23 123:24
124:17 125:18,22
126:8 128:22,23,25
129:9,10,14,16,18

130:4,7,19,25
131:24 132:5,15
133:17,18,22 134:1
134:11,14,16,18,21
135:7,7,23 136:6,11
136:13,16,18,19,20
137:7 140:13,20,21
141:18,23 143:25
145:2 146:10,10,17
146:19,20,23 147:9
147:16,22 148:2
149:13,20,21,22,25
150:3,20 152:11
153:5,12 154:7,16
155:11,21 158:13
158:15,20,25 159:1
159:12,16,20 160:5
160:6,17,19 161:16
161:17,19 162:8,9
162:11,15 163:3,4
163:15 164:8,16,24
165:10,21 167:7
168:12,14,17 169:6
169:25 170:5,11,12
170:23,24 171:1,14
171:25 172:18,22
172:24 173:8,12,14
173:16 174:12,15
175:15 176:1 177:3
177:5,6,8 179:23
180:1,13,14 181:4,9
182:12,15 183:6,17
183:22 184:20
185:12 189:3,11
190:9 191:9,19
192:6,8,22 193:3,4
193:8,14,16 194:4
195:14 196:16,24
197:19,21 198:1,6
198:23 199:4,6,15
199:25 200:4,14
202:21 203:1,9,17
208:16,22 209:2
210:12,13,13,21,25
211:4,5,8 212:11,19

212:20 213:16,20
218:11 219:4,24
220:1 221:13,15
222:13,17,20 223:3
224:4,7,16,24,25
ashrae's 32:10 33:6
53:4 56:21 58:23
98:25 99:5 101:23
109:11 121:4,12
127:15 130:5 143:3
151:5,9 173:4
174:15 175:22
176:8,24 193:18
199:16 210:19
224:15
ashrae000024591
8:5
ashrae0001590-15...
6:23
ashrae0001592
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[ashrae0001610-1611 - ashrae0024575]
ashrae0001610-16...
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88:2
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[ashrae0024581 - bakery]
ashrae0024581
144:6
ashrae0024591
206:5
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ashrae0024592-24...
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ashrae0024624
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ashrae003502 125:9
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asked 131:25 132:1
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207:2 211:21,24
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asking 13:21 166:19
178:23 189:19
197:19 203:9 208:9
220:3,7 221:22
assign 53:20
assigned 34:9,11,23
35:1,8,13 41:16,17
assignment 53:17
56:13,22 94:13
assignments 40:10
40:13 91:24 92:5,9
92:25 193:23

assist 146:14
assistant 19:17
25:16 115:19
associates 17:1
association 1:4 41:8
assume 108:11
136:4
assumes 38:18
assuming 61:6
212:6
assumption 221:22
assure 149:12 150:5
assuring 149:18
astm 1:3 2:4 10:20
56:7 181:17 182:19
182:21 185:5
atlanta 1:21 9:16
15:23
attached 210:14
214:10
attachment 108:8
108:14 174:25
175:2
attend 48:4
attendance 112:5
184:14,16 185:12
185:14
attended 184:23
attending 10:3
attends 36:5
attention 186:21
attorneys 10:2
214:21
attributed 193:14
audible 14:4
audio 9:7
august 62:19
authentic 64:17
71:12 122:24
authenticate 178:10
authenticated
178:15
authentication
178:6

author 192:23 193:4
193:8,19
authority 53:16,19
179:4
authorship 53:12
av 163:3
available 56:17
avenue 2:8
awards 24:22
aware 13:19 29:11
36:18 37:5 39:13,15
52:7 91:15,19,21,24
111:2,20 112:16
116:18 117:8
124:25 129:22
131:1 138:23
144:22 150:2
179:24 180:1,14
191:17 192:6,10
203:17 205:24
210:16
awareness 219:9
b
b 1:3,13,24 51:10
52:8 60:23 178:8
215:24 216:1
226:12
bachelor's 16:5,8
back 28:8,12,13
29:6,7 33:12 37:10
37:12,17 38:6,8,18
38:20 39:19 46:17
58:22 59:1 61:5
68:4 70:24 75:8
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96:2 97:23 105:8,8
113:6 121:11,24
136:14 150:8 171:5
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203:10 222:11
background 16:4
19:1 24:12,20
bakery 218:6,8,10
218:23 219:2,5
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[balance - bottom]
balance 36:3 42:19
beautiful 126:6
114:8
beauty 119:25
balanced 21:11,13
becker 3:8 4:6 10:9
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10:9 11:1,2 13:16
ballot 38:22,23
23:12 28:23 31:6,21
39:12
31:25 33:3,12 46:25
ballots 36:8
48:23 49:2,6,19
bankruptcy 16:17
50:24 51:7 52:4
barnes 164:25 166:1
55:10,13,16,24 57:5
barnes's 164:15,19
57:8 61:8,17 62:3,9
based 35:3,5 50:3,6
62:15,21 63:2,8,14
95:24 133:5 200:14
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204:5
66:7 67:13 68:7
baseline 141:7,12,24
69:19 70:12,17 71:1
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71:21 72:12,24 74:6
150:19
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baselines 140:20
77:1,18 78:6,24
basic 108:18 220:8
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basically 12:19
81:5,20 82:10,14,17
96:15
83:7,21 84:14,21,24
basis 193:18,22
85:8 86:1,21 87:18
bates 57:7 62:10,16
88:1,3,13 90:8,12
62:22 63:9,15,22
90:14 92:4,8,13,22
64:4,10 65:3 68:8
93:11,20 100:1,14
69:20 71:22 74:9
102:3 103:9,20
75:15 76:12 77:2
104:18,24 105:7
80:10,11 81:21
107:15 109:6,16
82:15 83:8 84:22
113:23 116:11,18
85:9 86:22 88:2
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90:13 94:2 105:9
120:12 122:3,12,17
106:10 107:17,18
122:21 123:14
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124:25 125:8
119:20 122:23
127:13,20 128:20
127:21 131:5,18
130:4 131:4,17
134:6 136:24
132:1,8,17 133:10
137:14 155:17
134:5 136:11,23
156:2 159:5 167:23
138:24 139:24
177:15 195:22
145:10,17 146:25
196:22 197:14
147:7,13,16 148:6
198:1 199:10,20
148:21,24 152:2,9
201:25 202:12
153:3 154:14 155:6
206:4,5
155:16 156:1,21
battle 203:12
157:4,16,25 158:7
bcunningham 2:21
159:4,23 162:21
163:9 164:2 165:6

167:3,22 169:12
170:16 171:17
172:9,17 173:4,18
174:20 176:22
177:13,23 178:5,9
178:13,16,20
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182:11 183:22
184:7 185:1,10,20
185:22 186:4 188:2
189:4,18 190:2,19
191:3,9,19 192:6,11
192:17 193:3,8,15
194:4 195:21
196:20 197:13,25
198:18 199:9,19
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202:11,18 203:14
206:3,17 207:20,25
208:20 209:18,20
210:9 211:11
212:12 213:4,14
215:1,23 217:6,13
217:22,25 219:17
221:2,6 223:2,13,17
225:6
becoming 174:7
beginning 98:10
128:9 159:24
189:12 190:6
behalf 10:20 113:14
113:21,21 171:23
behavior 28:18
belief 224:15
believe 24:7 31:15
67:19 71:1,11 92:22
93:3 143:23 160:8
166:3 172:22
176:20 180:3 184:2
184:6,10 194:24
195:4 211:22 224:7
believes 152:19
157:22
bellenger 200:15

belong 106:25
belonged 190:9
belongs 106:22
benchmark 142:6
benefit 113:16,24,25
139:2
beq 198:13
bert 34:4
best 15:8 30:25
better 99:24 120:10
174:10,16
beverly 34:3
beyond 126:19,20
137:22,22 146:15
bias 21:22 24:11
big 27:24 189:10
190:5
bill 143:12,13 210:6
210:8,22
billing 207:8
bingaman 142:24
biographical 24:18
bit 45:8 151:15,18
blake 2:16 10:15
blank 91:13 105:4
block 196:25
board 40:9 48:2,2
48:16 95:4 98:4
121:23 122:1
182:14 202:22
203:8 209:2
bockius 2:6
bodies 26:5 28:6
45:7,9,12 98:3
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body 26:4 39:12,13
46:9 142:19
book 158:24
books 99:14 148:14
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boss 207:11,12,13
bottom 24:9 75:5
76:22 82:22 85:16
86:8 105:22 127:13
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[bottom - charlotte]
128:7,7 145:17
174:2
box 61:5 88:4,14
boxes 106:4
break 14:20 55:12
55:13 116:12 152:3
192:11
breaks 14:19
bring 119:4
brought 41:25 61:5
121:24
bruce 208:6
bsr 160:5 163:3
build 31:9 32:18,19
147:20
builder 32:18
building 22:24
27:22 99:3,8 102:24
104:4 109:15 110:2
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119:2 127:4,5,6,9
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137:16,20 138:6,14
139:11 140:7,12,17
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149:10 150:9,10,20
150:24 151:3
197:20,22 198:12
198:16 224:20,21
224:22
buildings 30:5,14,21
31:9 99:12 105:5,6
109:5 136:3 137:22
138:16 142:15,16
143:7,9 149:15
150:21,22 198:14
built 147:21 219:25
bullet 140:19 143:2
144:8 146:2 153:21
burnetter 207:21
business 12:14,17
15:21,25 50:18 51:5

c
c 30:7 90:19 157:1
182:24 226:1,1
calendar 189:7
california 2:19 3:9
3:11 207:1 208:8,13
call 67:2 95:7
called 42:25 93:9
152:15 218:6
calls 70:15 173:1
183:9 189:22 191:8
193:21 204:3
calm 158:5 161:14
161:18
calm's 161:15,21
campaign 181:2,5,6
181:10 183:7,23
184:4
capacity 11:12,18
13:14 125:6 143:10
178:2
capitol 140:12
caption 9:19
carl 3:18 10:14
carmen 34:1
carolina 131:16
case 1:3 9:19,22,24
12:2,6,7,10 13:10
53:13 56:3 151:25
180:4 213:11 226:7
226:8
categories 21:25
22:2,6,13 23:12
48:16 49:23 50:4,5
50:9 57:19 105:10
106:4,6,12,20
categorized 24:8
category 21:17,18
21:19 22:15 24:7
50:11 105:12,15
106:15,22,25 107:5
107:8,11
caucus 137:16,20
138:6,14 139:12

140:7
cause 43:7 141:14
caution 51:22
cautious 174:4
ccr 1:24 226:12
cell 9:5
ceo 182:24
certain 89:8 104:4
178:17,18
certificate 158:12
159:11,15,19
certificates 192:19
certification 114:17
159:11
certify 226:3,6
cetera 120:1
cfo 182:24
cfr 175:21 176:2,8
176:11,16,23
chain 8:6,8,10,12
53:11 109:21 174:2
188:13 189:9
207:10
chair 26:3,5,17,21
26:23 28:4,5 29:3
36:2 37:13,14 38:24
40:10,11,14,14 48:1
48:1 95:9 106:25
131:10,13 133:14
152:22 156:6
157:13 197:1
211:22
chairs 21:9 47:25
138:9
challenges 124:9
chance 15:1 101:18
185:6
change 15:18 20:23
21:3 25:24 26:1
36:11,12 37:11,21
37:24,25 38:15,18
38:19,20 39:1,1,3,4
39:6,10 42:25 43:7
43:17,19 44:6 45:6
45:11,15 58:16 60:6

60:8,11,14 65:10
66:9 67:19 69:5,8
70:9 72:2 76:16
80:20 82:20 85:14
96:24 124:6 130:22
135:22 152:21
157:21 163:15,20
164:8,19,23 165:10
166:5,6,7 167:7,11
167:25 169:15
170:10,14,16,25
171:20 172:7 194:1
194:2,3,16 195:13
204:16,23,25
changed 25:21,23
43:7 75:2 120:7,9
130:9,10,12,13,20
130:21 152:20
195:16
changes 15:1,3,4
37:5,18 38:4,9 39:4
41:22 42:9,10,21,23
42:24 43:14 44:2
45:22 46:10 94:16
95:23 96:1 157:12
157:23 205:8
changing 39:5,7
130:25
chapter 110:3 120:9
137:4 221:12,14,14
chapters 115:24
119:5 145:2,4,18,22
204:6
characteristic
156:13
characterization
113:19 123:10
139:17
characterize 113:8
114:8
characters 89:9,15
charge 34:7 135:13
194:9
charlotte 131:16
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[check - committee]
check 88:17 106:4
109:9 113:6 119:12
136:10,15 150:11
checked 25:14
checks 25:6 88:13
choice 32:20
choose 32:13 50:22
136:1 166:10
chose 178:1
chris 117:24 118:1
196:13 224:3,4
church 15:13,16
circle 15:23
cite 104:19
claim 12:9 192:22
193:3,18
claimed 12:20,24
13:7
claiming 13:4
claire 33:14 188:7
215:7 216:3 220:9
222:3
claire's 186:20
clarify 68:22 120:25
clarity 211:3
classes 114:17
121:14
clean 140:16 142:23
clear 39:8 49:5
104:23 200:8 202:5
209:10
clearly 129:4,9
155:3 179:18
click 88:15 91:8
clicked 88:25
close 66:20 207:3
closest 145:5
clumped 201:17
cluster 112:23
coalition 137:17,21
137:24 139:12
140:9 219:9
coalitions 137:15
code 22:22,23,24
30:5,11 31:13,19

32:4,5,6,14,16,17
41:4 45:3,5,6,7,9,11
45:12,25 46:2,3,4
46:21,21,24 47:1,1
47:3,3,7,8 50:19,21
51:1 110:2,7 111:9
113:16 114:1
120:20 121:1
122:18 125:10,15
125:19,21 126:13
126:14,16,19,21
127:18 137:23
138:9,18 140:17
141:5 143:5,15
144:8,16 145:7
149:22 150:10,22
150:24 167:25
168:2,4 169:2,15,17
170:10,12,14,16,23
170:24 171:7,9,20
171:22 172:7
173:14 175:9,16
202:6 205:8,10,12
205:14,15,15,17
207:8 215:10
220:11 221:15,18
221:18,20,21,23
codes 22:19,20
30:10 31:21 35:19
46:18 99:24 100:1,4
100:5 110:7 111:6
111:19,21,23
123:16,19 126:23
126:24 127:1
131:11,15 138:16
141:21,21 142:17
142:19,25 143:4,24
144:13 145:8 146:3
148:14 149:10,19
150:11,20 151:2,3
168:1 169:1,16
171:21 205:7 209:4
209:14 222:15,19
224:21

coding 89:15
colker 128:8,14,20
128:23 129:2
210:11
collaborative
112:25
college 16:7
columbia 1:1 9:24
column 120:8
194:17,18,22,22,25
195:1,2,5,9,11
columns 120:8
195:10
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come 14:13,19 36:3
45:13 96:22 102:18
102:21 139:4
170:19 181:15
comes 27:7 45:13
166:20
coming 45:15 96:17
100:20,25 102:10
comment 15:4 27:24
37:4,19 38:2 58:15
69:22 74:13 87:23
87:24 88:5,8,11,12
88:16 89:5,18 90:17
91:4,6 95:18 96:22
101:18 161:1,24
167:19 175:12
176:16 193:25
212:7 220:8
commented 126:1
commenter 70:6
commenters 58:15
58:19,20 95:20,21
193:25
commenting 70:22
75:19 81:10 82:1
84:1,19
comments 27:5
29:24 43:10 70:7,9
88:19 95:19,24
100:20,24 124:17
160:5 163:2 168:25

175:7,11 204:16,18
220:3,7,18,22
commercial 30:5,10
30:14,20 109:5
127:17 141:17,19
141:20,23 142:8,15
143:7,9 150:21
210:4 221:18
commission 203:3
commitment 204:10
committee 21:10
24:6,10 25:2,17
26:3,16,20,22 27:14
27:19 28:5,6 29:3
29:10 36:2,3,6
37:12,21 38:2,6,18
39:11,19 40:5,8,18
40:20,21 41:2,13,15
42:5,17,19 43:4,5,9
43:11,11,22,25 44:7
45:14 46:15 47:24
47:24 48:2,7,8,20
48:21,23 49:1,9,10
49:14,16,16 50:2,6
52:24,25 56:16,20
57:4,22,23 58:2,6
60:9 61:10,12 65:16
66:19 77:6,12,25
78:12 86:6 87:2
94:11 95:2,6,9,11
95:12,15,19,22 96:4
96:6,16,23 97:5,7
97:10 98:5 107:1
116:19,20,21,22
117:2,2,21 118:10
118:11,13,16,21
137:5 152:23
157:11,11 160:4
163:1 165:18 166:2
166:5,8,12,22
167:14 171:5,15
186:13,24 187:23
193:12,16 194:5,8
195:16 197:1,7,10
197:19 198:9 204:8
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[committee - contribution]
204:19 208:15,15
208:18,21,23 209:1
210:5 212:10
213:22 214:11
221:16
committees 20:12
21:10,13,14 24:21
25:22 26:13,19,25
26:25 41:18,21,24
45:16 46:13 47:20
49:7,8,13,13,20,22
50:7,13 79:2 112:7
112:8 118:19,22
132:4
common 41:24
183:10 212:19
communicate 215:1
communication
210:10
communications
51:23 183:11,16
214:20 215:19
comp 212:1
company 92:20
99:23 168:10,11
179:22 192:1
comparing 73:15,21
86:11,15 87:6,10
114:12 128:6
comparison 129:12
129:15 173:24
comparisons 114:6
compensated 194:4
competition 173:9
competitiveness
206:14
competitors 13:5
compiled 196:25
complained 125:1
complaints 124:17
complete 21:7 23:24
28:22,24 29:1
120:15
completed 56:18

completely 14:14
completing 28:10
complex 150:12
compliance 22:10
22:15,19 23:4,11,14
32:11,15 33:1,3
106:7,15 124:4
128:11 148:16
149:12,13,16,21
150:1,6,13 202:8
compliant 31:2,7
220:12
complied 72:8
complimentary
212:25
comply 31:3,10,17
32:22 121:3
complying 149:15
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component 53:12
composes 40:4
137:24
computer 226:5
comstock 124:22
169:9 170:3 174:1,5
174:9,12 177:22
178:15 179:2,6
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comstock's 51:13
concern 39:15 129:3
151:5,9
concerned 128:16
130:4,19,21 150:4
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concerning 52:24
147:8 151:6,10
concerns 151:13
concluded 225:9
conclusion 70:16
173:2 193:21
conclusions 93:10
concrete 103:10
conditioning 1:6,14
10:18 18:19 51:11
102:14

conduct 12:13,16
181:2
conducted 181:4
conference 131:10
131:15 219:23
conflict 24:11 37:20
37:22 38:1 98:18
conflicts 36:10,13
37:1 98:13
conformity 98:13
confused 26:9
confusion 141:14
congress 100:22
138:11,20,25 139:3
139:13,25 140:5
146:15 203:3
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congressional
137:16 138:6,14
139:12 140:7
198:24 199:2 210:5
conjunction 181:2
181:10 183:7,23
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conover 173:23
consecutive 141:7
consensus 101:3,9
101:14 102:5
114:11,12 212:10
conservation 150:22
221:21
consider 182:15
196:16 197:20
212:2 220:2,21
222:17 223:4
consideration 94:24
considered 44:6
120:1 151:4
considering 129:14
183:6,23 198:16
210:5 212:21
220:14
consistency 40:22
consistent 101:5
168:19

consistently 36:10
construct 102:24
consult 152:22
consultants 57:20
consultation 37:14
211:8
consulting 149:23
contact 34:20 80:5,6
145:25
contain 66:15,21
72:3 75:22 76:18
163:5
contains 94:12
content 66:22,24
122:12 170:6
171:12,13 194:10
194:13,15 214:19
contents 103:12
context 180:5
continuation 156:24
157:19
continue 9:8 126:13
continued 5:1 6:2
7:1 8:1 135:7 157:9
continuing 3:3
162:14 199:6
continuous 58:16
60:5,7,11,13 65:6
66:9 67:24 68:11
69:5,8 72:1 76:17
80:19 82:20 83:12
85:14 96:12,23
133:2 163:15 164:9
165:10 166:6 167:7
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continuously 96:19
contract 147:3,8
contribute 37:2
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contributed 92:14
98:15
contributing 57:24
58:6,10,14
contribution 161:21
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[contributions - cunningham]
contributions 77:24
92:23 93:4 160:21
161:3 169:7 170:1
224:8
controversial 27:3
27:10,16 29:17,18
29:21
controversy 27:25
174:4
convention 103:22
conversation 107:24
156:4,25 183:2
220:10
conversations 9:4
180:16 182:18
183:19 184:3
215:22
convey 53:17
cooling 18:20 214:1
cooperated 111:18
cooperating 110:21
111:5
cooperation 172:18
copied 177:23 222:3
copies 6:14 165:3
185:8,15 202:23
212:1,19
copy 134:15 164:14
168:24 172:1
175:10,11 195:7
212:8,24,25
copyright 53:9,11
53:12,16,18 69:25
70:2,11,18,23 71:2
72:3,7,15,25 73:5
73:16,17,17,21
75:23,23 76:3,19
77:8,12,14,14 78:14
78:16,17 79:10,13
81:2,17 82:6,25
83:18,18 84:7,7
85:4,20 86:11,12,15
86:16 87:7,10,11
89:21 90:1,2,21,23
90:24 91:1,13,15,16

91:21,24 92:5,5,9,9
92:15,16,23,25 93:4
93:6 94:13 158:13
159:12,16,20 160:9
160:12 161:8 162:1
163:5,17 164:10,13
164:24 165:13,16
166:11 167:13,14
167:17 169:3,6,9,21
169:22 170:1,4
172:6 178:24 179:4
179:7 188:25
191:10 192:19
193:23 222:17
223:4 224:8,10
copyrighted 180:9,9
189:11 190:6,8
191:15
copyrights 53:20
224:16
corner 57:9 68:18
82:23 85:17 86:8
105:22 164:23
218:6,8,10,23 219:1
219:5
correct 14:14,17
17:21,24 22:8 30:22
33:5 37:15 52:13
53:8,24 54:2,5,8,11
54:14,17,20,23 55:1
57:25 59:17 68:20
68:25 69:1 72:13,14
73:2 76:4,5,8,9 80:4
89:13 96:5 97:11,12
97:21,23 102:17,20
104:18 105:10,11
105:13,14,16,17,19
105:20 106:4,5,8,9
106:13,14 107:3,8
109:18,19,22,23
117:5 139:10
147:24,25 149:6,7
152:24,25 154:19
154:20 155:2
156:12,17,18 161:6

166:15 168:12,13
169:4,5,18,19,23,24
170:3 175:1,17,18
175:23 176:5,6
188:16,17 193:16
193:17 195:12,15
202:19 203:15,16
203:18,19 212:13
213:1,2 215:24,25
221:3,4 226:5
correcting 152:11
correction 57:13
158:5
correctly 30:18 61:7
195:18
correlate 65:14
corynne 3:19 10:10
cost 124:9,15,18,24
125:2 127:2,2,2,8,8
143:24 144:4 182:9
182:11,13 204:22
council 32:4,6 95:3
137:4,12 146:6
169:2 173:15
205:17
counsel 2:2 3:3 9:17
51:24 56:6,7 70:12
72:8 147:7 181:24
181:25 183:17,17
184:5,10 185:11
186:11 214:16,23
215:2,13,15,17,20
216:2,16,20,22
226:7,7
counter 112:18
counterclaims 1:12
counterparts 182:19
county 226:2
couple 27:18 40:23
104:1 135:18
course 185:9 191:14
202:6
courses 99:14
court 1:1 9:23 10:5
13:24 14:1 49:17

56:13 74:15 127:9
131:12 178:18
179:9 180:4 207:12
207:14 220:4,20,23
221:1
courts 186:13
cover 104:3,4
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covered 29:25
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create 99:14 102:9
102:10,13 216:5
created 94:22 211:5
creating 98:25
118:4 211:2
creation 97:14
critical 213:22
csos 203:4
ctcc 137:12
cttc 137:6 146:6
cunningham 2:16
4:7 10:15,16 13:11
23:5 28:20 30:24
31:11,23 32:24 33:8
46:19 48:19,25 49:3
50:14 51:2,20 55:7
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61:13 65:25 67:10
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122:15,19 123:9
124:19 125:4
128:15 129:21
131:22 132:2,21
136:8 138:22
139:16 145:9,12
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[cunningham - develop]
146:22 147:1,11
148:18 170:8 172:3
172:12 173:1
176:12 177:19,25
178:7,11,14 179:17
182:6 183:14 184:1
188:24 189:16,21
190:14,23 191:12
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202:19 207:16
208:3 209:23
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214:15 215:14
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223:5,7,15,19,22
225:3
current 31:14
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currently 175:15
customary 136:16
136:19
customer 196:12,14
196:17,18
cutting 150:8
cv 1:3 9:24
cycle 96:15 168:3
169:17,22 171:22
d
d 1:3 142:24
d.c. 2:9 116:3,7
137:4,11,13,21
139:19 140:13
146:14,15 198:24
200:2,5 210:20
215:4 218:10,14
222:1
daily 64:23
data 213:24
database 66:3,4,6,7
66:10,12,14,21
87:24 88:12 90:17
91:4,6 176:17

datacenter 213:19
214:6,7
datacenters 214:2,4
date 9:11 57:14
66:17,18 68:18
74:25 75:3,10 78:2
81:13 82:3,22,24
84:25 85:17 86:9
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149:10 153:24
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dated 8:7,9,10,12
68:12 71:5,9 134:11
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dates 57:9 68:15
153:18,21 154:10
dave 173:23
day 135:9 185:9
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days 204:9
deal 41:23 42:19
133:25
dealing 47:12
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deals 115:21,23
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dean 184:21
december 19:5
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decide 95:22 107:2
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decided 194:24
decides 46:22
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decision 121:21,25
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decisions 139:7
deem 31:3,17
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defendant 1:10 3:6
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defendants 9:18
define 205:6
defined 49:25
definition 22:17,18
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definitions 23:17,18
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degree 16:5,6 37:23
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degrees 17:9 24:20
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delineate 129:4
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delineates 131:19
demonstrate 133:8
department 29:8
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111:15,18,24 112:1
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143:14 171:24
172:1,4,10,17,22
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departments 150:9
depaul 16:7
depend 130:9
depended 125:25
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depending 23:15
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depends 23:8,15
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42:3,7 46:3 99:25
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depose 178:1
deposed 10:23 11:5
11:11,15 13:18
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deposition 1:13 9:7
9:14 13:10,20 14:25
51:10,13 52:2 178:8
185:12,14 214:14
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depositions 178:3
describe 27:1 123:1
described 28:18
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describes 21:20
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describing 29:16
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description 4:9 5:2
6:3 7:2 8:2 187:24
design 11:25 12:3,4
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designated 120:4
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designee 1:15 52:8
180:13
designer 106:7
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destruction 65:24
determination
38:25 39:16 106:19
120:23 142:4
determine 107:7
141:2 204:21
determined 157:11
determines 143:3
171:3
develop 130:1
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[developed - doing]
developed 21:23
46:8 98:1 126:2
197:21
developers 47:13
138:1,8 218:9
developing 52:16
99:6 152:10 203:21
development 20:17
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101:16 110:8 112:4
117:5 126:18,22
132:11 168:2,4
169:17 171:22
173:16 202:6 205:2
212:16 218:12,15
dickerson 8:12
212:5
dictate 95:15
differ 77:18 114:4
126:25
difference 26:24
39:2 45:24 49:12
74:2 78:20 87:14
92:4,8 96:11,11,13
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differences 73:22
87:13 129:4,10
different 22:2 28:17
31:19 42:11 48:16
80:11 92:21 107:4,9
107:11 114:10
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differentiate 129:5
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differs 77:17 78:17
difficult 144:3
direct 123:16
directed 110:2

direction 38:2
directly 37:2 172:8
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director 33:16
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directors 40:9 95:4
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disagrees 157:20
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discovery 4:11
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discuss 188:20
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discussed 92:17
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discussing 37:4 94:5
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discussion 128:5
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discussions 98:17
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dissolved 121:10,20
distinction 132:19
distributed 212:9
district 1:1,1 9:23
9:23
divide 34:14
docs 189:11 190:6
doctor 16:6
document 21:6
51:12,15,18 57:2,6
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62:17,23 63:4,10,16
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76:7,13,15,18,23
77:3,5,8 78:8,10
79:6,8,9,12,22,25
80:2,12,18,21,23
81:1,7,13,16,23,25
82:12,15,18,25 83:9
83:11,14,17,23,25
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85:3,10,12 86:3,5
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94:4,7,9,12,16
95:13,24 96:5,7
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107:24 108:3,10
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123:1,5,10 127:24
131:6,8,17 132:14
134:7,9 136:25
137:2,9,11 148:8,22
149:1,4 153:5,7,12
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157:6,17,18 158:2,9
158:11 159:7,24,25
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162:24 163:5,11,13
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164:22 165:8 167:5
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169:20 171:19
173:10,20,22,24
174:25 177:15,16
177:18 178:10
179:5 180:21,23,24

184:7,19 185:23,25
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211:13,15 213:7,8
213:13,14,15 217:7
217:8,25 219:19
220:17,18 221:8,10
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documentation
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documents 27:7
59:22 60:17 64:18
71:18 73:15 77:24
78:25 101:16
107:19,22 130:1
132:7 153:18 165:3
174:22 175:4 185:6
190:8 206:7 216:5
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doe 110:9 112:4,13
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116:19 117:1,4
119:4,10,15 128:6,9
130:24 134:16
135:7 142:3 143:3,4
146:10,10,19,20,23
147:6,9 196:15
201:9 220:13
doemou.doc 108:11
doing 21:22 38:10
41:6 65:17 127:3
129:14,15 137:13
138:15 140:6 150:8
178:4
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Veritext Legal Solutions
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[dollars - energy]
dollars 12:21
double 36:1 136:14
doubt 122:22
doug 114:23 115:12
129:2,5 173:24
200:16 219:6 222:3
doug's 115:10,12
draft 36:23 58:15
69:23 74:14 75:20
81:11 82:2 84:2,20
96:20 98:9 100:14
108:3,5,7 117:8
187:23 213:18
drafted 224:1,3
drafting 95:13 96:4
100:16,18 101:22
204:4,5 210:23
drafts 20:24 21:3
36:9,9,15,25 41:23
42:7 43:5 96:6 97:1
170:16 171:12
191:25
draw 100:14
drive 67:3,8
due 123:15 151:3
duly 10:23
dunlap 206:23
duties 21:21 36:21
187:24
dwgp 206:11
e
e 30:7 89:7 90:19
140:20 201:10
226:1,1
earlier 6:14 52:23
94:17 140:21
153:23 167:15
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earliest 188:13
early 210:15
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easiest 27:1

eastern 16:5
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edit 37:10
editing 20:24 98:19
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edition 59:16,22
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editions 60:18
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editorial 37:13
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44:2,6 157:10,12,14
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127:8 143:24 144:4
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30:20 32:5 99:12
104:4 105:3 109:4
126:19 140:18
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198:8 199:16
213:19 214:6,7
efficient 29:23
102:25 112:22
120:24 127:7,17
136:3 138:18 141:3
141:8,9,10 142:5
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effort 178:2
egs 1:3 9:24
eighth 160:8
either 27:14 44:19
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98:17 166:7 176:4
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electronic 3:19
10:11 59:8,11,18
72:20 73:7,8 74:3
79:10 126:7
electronically 67:2
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elizabeth 187:21
email 8:6,6,8,8,10
8:10,12,12 38:7,11
38:14 98:22,22
107:24 109:18,21
128:2,4,5 156:4,13
156:24 157:7,18
158:3 173:23 174:2
174:3,24 175:6,7
177:24 178:22
179:1 180:16,25
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188:13 189:8 191:7
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221:3,11,25 222:7,8
emmerich 8:6
206:24 207:2,10
211:22
employ 226:7
employed 179:16,19
employee 23:7
146:18,19,19

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employees 48:8,10
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97:8,13 99:18 100:7
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170:5 193:16
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empowering 145:18
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endorsed 113:17
ends 89:8 95:4
energy 29:23 30:5,7
30:8,15,20 32:1,4
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105:3 108:1,6,16,22
108:25 109:4,11
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112:1,22 113:5,9,14
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126:18 127:7,17
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136:3,12,17 138:18
140:16,17 141:2,3,8
141:9,10,13 142:5
142:13,20,23,25
143:1,14 146:3
149:15 150:20,21
150:24 171:24
172:5,10,18,23
196:15,16 197:20
197:20,22 198:8,10
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[energy - exhibit]
198:12,13 199:16
206:14 213:17,19
214:6 220:15
221:18,20
energy's 110:4
172:1
enforce 150:12
151:24
enforcement 120:17
148:15 149:11
150:5 151:1,6,10,22
engage 145:18
engaged 144:12
181:9
engineering 37:23
103:16 179:22
engineers 1:6,14
10:19 51:11 119:2
158:22
ensure 148:16
entail 21:4,5
enter 87:23 88:9
89:9,11,13 91:7
135:8,23 136:4
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internet 98:23
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iprpc 186:10,11,22
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iron 59:9,12,19 61:2
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iso 110:23 111:3
issue 11:16 38:20
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issued 43:1 96:21
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jonathan 163:16
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63:18 123:3 137:8
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51:6 124:5,7 168:11
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k
k 140:16 157:2
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22:14,21 66:14
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knowledgeable
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known 32:7 124:23
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knows 133:25
krumm 17:1,3,5
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[l - looking]
l
l 181:19
lab 164:17
labeled 61:6 117:13
122:6 159:10,14,18
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leadership 108:1
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learning 110:2
leave 44:11 198:24
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legislature 199:16
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length 195:4
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letters 89:6 192:4
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level 26:3,14,14,14
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levels 34:15 112:6
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lighting 157:13
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line 60:21 64:24
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littleton 33:18
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looking 23:9 36:3
61:8 64:15 74:22
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[looks - mean]
looks 25:18 39:16
175:10 201:10
202:2 220:17
loses 44:24
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lost 105:4
lot 20:20 29:24
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m
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malamud's 186:16
manager 19:17,24
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manufacturer
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[mean - multiple]
151:17 163:22
169:25 172:9
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182:20,22 187:18
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memorized 138:3
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morganlewis.com
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2:11
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55:8 196:1,3 221:22 multiple 40:19
mischaracterization
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misrepresent
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[n - october]
n
n 89:7 90:19 201:10
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naiop 206:11
name 4:3 9:10,25
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neiman 187:21

nema 201:9 206:10
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notes 133:4 144:15
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notification 44:20

november 18:10
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occasions 214:23
occur 107:25 200:6
occurred 51:24
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215:19
october 78:4 86:10
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[office - participating]
office 137:4,12
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192:20 210:12,20
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offices 147:23 148:1
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oh 73:19 105:4
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older 120:20,25
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ones 42:4 102:23
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online 18:13 87:24
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operations 53:5
opinions 197:8
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opportunities
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opposed 27:11
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option 32:11,15,19
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ostp 200:18

outcome 143:21
outlines 216:6
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overhaul 120:15
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owned 17:7,7
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p
p 30:7 153:16
155:12 156:8
p.m. 225:9
packet 162:25
page 4:3,9 5:2 6:3
7:2 8:2 52:5 53:23
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pages 58:11 125:8
126:3,11 160:10
paper 59:9,19 67:4
68:4 98:24 165:3
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paperwork 44:17
107:2,7
paradigm 126:12
paragraph 84:9
85:22,22 89:23
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paragraphs 174:9
parentheses 126:4
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part 23:19 24:1
29:21 47:6,7 48:7
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participate 24:14
50:13,23,25 99:18
100:7 117:7 173:15
187:11 191:8 219:1
219:4
participating
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[participation - president]
participation 52:17
112:6 137:15
138:13 145:25
particular 21:23
22:3 24:16 42:12
43:17,20 52:8,12
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143:18 164:14
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particularly 132:10
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119:16
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pay 124:14
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pdf 212:8
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penalty 151:21
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pennsylvania 2:8
people 21:16 27:24
33:25 34:10,12 36:5
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permission 56:7
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pertains 68:23 94:4
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phones 9:5
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place 9:5 99:24
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places 150:8
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plaintiffs 1:7
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pointed 129:24
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27:1,7,11,19,21,22
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political 16:9
portion 126:1
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portions 45:22
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portman's 206:9
position 19:8,19,25
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positions 115:8
positive 32:1 135:15
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possible 130:10,18
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posted 100:22
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posting 18:13
potential 174:7
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pound 158:14
power 214:8
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presentation 123:2
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presentations
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presented 117:21
president 33:20
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[president - providing]
213:16 221:12
press 130:2 181:6
pretty 36:20 181:14
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prevent 12:16
prevented 12:13
preventing 15:8
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15:14 48:22 75:24
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85:4 152:12,20,21
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print 57:15
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printing 119:24
153:22
printout 153:4,8
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priority 119:1
private 9:4 52:18
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215:18
privy 191:22
pro 138:15
probably 23:16 38:5
51:25 59:8,18 66:2
67:11 80:5 97:25
98:1 104:14 108:9
109:2 111:11,13
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182:17 184:13

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procedures 18:14
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proceed 10:8 89:1
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process 13:15 18:25
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processing 213:25
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project 21:9,12 24:6
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proper 101:15
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125:21,23 165:19
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proposals 20:23
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83:4 85:23 111:7
125:11,15,19 168:1
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propose 37:24,25
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protection 1:4
prove 149:16,16
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149:4 176:11 185:8
186:15 187:6,9
provides 110:6
149:22 175:7 176:1
198:13
providing 13:22
112:8 179:6
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[public - recognize]
public 20:22 21:2
24:15 27:5 36:14
39:14 41:23 42:6
44:10 56:8,22 60:10
60:10 67:20 69:22
74:14 75:19 81:10
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91:14,18,22,25
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179:24 180:2,11,14
181:6,7,9 185:4
191:25 192:3 194:2
194:19,19,25
202:23 203:18
218:17
public.resource.org
1:9 3:18 9:21
181:11 182:16
189:15,20 190:4,11
190:12,13,16 191:4
191:11
public.resource.or...
51:9
public.resource.org.
10:13 11:4 180:10
publication 20:23
21:3 36:15 39:14
67:21 77:25 96:1
112:9,10,12 156:14
195:5,18 221:24
publications 177:3
194:19 195:15
199:6 213:24
publicly 130:24
publish 112:15
161:2,4 222:18
published 44:16,23
62:1 131:2 133:15
154:1 169:1 179:3,5
186:16

publishing 59:25
60:3 112:13
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pull 45:22
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172:19,20
pulling 220:8
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purpose 41:22 42:9
67:19 94:23 95:5
97:1,3,19 98:25
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197:2,4 199:1 217:5
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75:3 88:18,21,25
92:21 107:4 127:5,6
127:10,11 144:5
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170:18 187:6,8
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puts 44:9
q
qualified 18:22
quality 99:13,13
210:3
quasi 191:1
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100:12 147:5
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questioning 60:21
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questionnaire
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27:15 39:10 48:22
93:9 97:22 185:7,25
214:24 215:8 216:9
223:20 225:5 226:4
quick 152:2
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r
r 13:3,6 89:7 90:19
157:2 226:1
ramspeck 33:14
188:8,14,22 189:5,9
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215:7 216:3 220:9
ramspeck's 33:15
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ran 57:14
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136:5 144:21
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read's 115:7,12
readability 119:25
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reader 120:10
readily 56:17
reads 61:23
reaffirm 44:11
reaffirmation 41:3
42:16,18 43:1 44:8
reaffirmations
42:23 43:13

reaffirmed 43:15
reaffirming 42:19
44:22
realize 14:13
really 23:16 50:16
118:1 138:15
reason 13:9 14:4
29:19 44:5 64:17
70:13 71:11 101:4,5
102:6 122:22 150:3
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95:24 124:17
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93:16 116:15 152:6
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recipient 174:24
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153:5 154:15 155:7
155:23 158:8 159:6
159:25 163:10
164:3,17 167:4,24
169:13 173:19
174:22 177:15
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[recognize - release]
180:20 185:22
186:5 188:3 195:23
197:15 198:2,20
199:11,21 202:1
213:6,12 219:19
221:8
recognized 119:21
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217:7,15,19,21
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recommendation
44:8 107:6
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126:4,5
recommended
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record 9:1,9 13:22
15:12 24:18 38:3
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93:21 98:20 116:13
116:16 152:4,7
186:2 192:12,15
209:10 223:9 225:7
recorded 38:13
recording 9:8
records 58:22,25
59:6,15 60:2 98:23
133:18 136:15
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80:3,5,7
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reference 32:15,25
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refresh 216:17

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refrigeration 51:11
regard 224:15
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rehn 56:6
reiniche 1:16 4:5
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relating 219:24
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164:24 165:14,16
166:11 167:13
168:24 169:3,7,10
169:21,23 170:1,4
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[release - role]
172:6 181:6
released 154:5,18
releases 72:15 75:24
76:4,19 79:13 81:2
83:18 84:8 85:4,20
91:13,15,21 92:5,9
92:17,25 93:6 160:9
160:12 163:6
167:14 224:10
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209:24
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189:6
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remotely 10:3 191:8
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192:5
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209:11
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22:13
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report 4:10 33:13,17
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65:5 66:16 117:14
123:3 213:18
reported 1:23
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131:12 178:18
179:9 207:12,14
220:4,20,23 221:1
223:7
reports 33:23 35:15
122:13

represent 10:5
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representation
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reprint 6:14 155:1
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request 46:14 72:8
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research 112:9,12
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resolution 95:21
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resource 56:8,23
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responsibilities
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rest 78:1 93:12
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result 226:8
retain 65:23
retention 58:21,23
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returning 41:14
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rev 75:9
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reviewing 20:21,24
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rhonda 8:12 212:5,5
right 15:1 17:14
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rights 53:18 70:8
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rigorous 33:7
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roles 20:9 210:19
roll 36:15 40:24
96:16
rolls 40:20
ron 200:15
room 10:3
rose 165:11
rosenfeld 167:8
rosenfeld's 167:11
rosenstock 165:11
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roster 22:8 23:7
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rosters 64:15,21,23
rotate 36:4
rotating 40:12,15
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roughly 96:15
rpr 226:11
rule 1:13 45:16 46:4
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rules 13:18 21:14
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ryan 128:8,20 129:2
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ryan's 129:3
résumé 18:15
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s.1462. 142:23
sac 208:17
safety 21:17
salaries 203:4
sale 194:6
san 2:19 3:11
satisfy 31:22
saturday 196:2

save 67:3
saved 67:4
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savings 133:7 143:1
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saw 18:13
saying 12:18 35:21
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scarborough 115:21
schedule 34:15 52:2
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science 16:9
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scott 180:25 184:21
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screenshots 179:11
sdo 219:9
sdos 183:18
second 2:17 11:17
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secretariat 47:18,20
secretary 25:12,15
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section 36:11,12
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sections 221:17
sector 52:18
security 140:16
see 17:11 23:7 30:3
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selection 194:9,12
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self 110:2
senate 143:13
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[separate - standard]
separate 39:23
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september 62:7
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sequential 103:25
served 20:12
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session 139:22
sessions 119:5,7,11
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set 141:6 142:3
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sets 140:17
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shingles 25:9,10
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shlomo 167:8
short 12:14
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shoulder 185:21
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showed 217:11
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shows 21:22 22:17
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si 153:17 155:21
sic 137:12 154:17
side 103:19 195:19
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signature 24:9
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significant 125:12
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skalko 131:10
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skalko's 133:4
slide 146:5
slightly 25:21 48:16
smacna 180:4,8,12
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smaller 204:4
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speculation 189:22
spell 30:6
spelled 100:5
spend 204:3 205:10
spent 205:19
spielvogel 157:20
160:13,14,16,18

spielvogel's 160:21
split 35:2
splitting 83:2
spls 26:16,17,20,21
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39:20,23 40:1,2,4
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spoke 125:22 215:4
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spots 72:9,12
srs 43:8 44:8
sspc 106:6 210:16
stack 217:1,1,19
staff 25:1,5,19 29:2
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star 213:17
start 17:13 18:11
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starting 52:5 121:11
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state 15:11,21 84:22
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statement 99:3,5
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status 4:10 24:9
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story 12:14
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stream 186:16
street 1:20 2:17 3:9
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string 201:19
stringent 114:7,9
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subcommittees
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subject 94:5 103:3
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subjects 122:13,15
submit 44:17 45:23
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tanishe 34:3
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task 67:3,11,14,16
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teach 119:8
tech 95:3 137:4,12
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thick 195:7,8
thing 27:17 44:3
46:12 48:6 101:7
103:1 108:10 111:1
126:2 127:3 136:21
183:4 188:12
199:14
things 19:1 20:20
24:21,22 27:23
35:25 98:13 99:14
100:20,23,25
101:13 110:10
113:2,12 114:18
117:22 121:15
138:15,17 139:4,4
139:22 144:4
156:12 173:10,12
187:23 188:25
190:7,25 191:1,2
209:7,9
think 11:9 12:15
17:14 19:13 22:11
26:9 36:21 40:6
64:17 72:18,21
73:25 93:11 98:1
103:6 111:23
112:24 122:9
124:15 129:6
132:14,18,22,24,24
133:5,14 135:2
137:5 140:2 143:22
144:15,16 146:5,7

148:21 158:3 166:1
179:25 181:19
188:18
third 21:18 40:20
77:23 84:9 96:16
119:20 137:14
144:8 153:11,14,20
175:14 196:11
224:17,18
thousands 27:5
three 19:13,14 36:16
44:17 126:5,11
141:7 143:1 201:21
201:21 214:23
tied 104:2
till 20:1
tim 221:11
time 9:12 10:2 18:14
18:24 19:6 57:20,25
58:7,10,14 59:25
60:3,8 61:15,18
66:3 69:9 96:18
98:22 128:21
132:23,25 134:12
135:4 138:7 143:18
143:20 144:18,20
150:7 151:8 156:6
172:13,15 188:9,9
190:1,1,15 191:23
198:6 203:23,24
204:1,10,13 205:4,7
205:9,10,18,22
206:21,23 208:22
211:23 219:21
222:1 223:8
timeline 131:19
133:9 166:20,21,23
times 11:8 45:22
133:6 175:16 204:6
204:7 214:18
title 19:11,16,23
20:1,4,7 41:22 42:9
53:11 67:6,12,18
94:23 95:5 97:1,3
97:19 104:21 115:9

115:10,12 182:22
titled 124:9 137:15
titles 182:25
today 15:8 20:7 25:8
52:24 53:8 92:17
93:1,6,23 94:17
167:16 207:18
214:14 216:6,15,19
217:12,14,23 218:1
223:24 224:11,19
today's 9:11
tom 200:15
ton 216:11
tool 158:22 197:23
top 8:6,8,10,12 22:5
33:10 57:9 68:18
131:18 187:13
188:12 189:8
201:13 203:20
210:9 218:11
topic 27:10,16 43:17
50:16 52:15,20,23
53:3,8,10,15,23
54:1,5,7,10,13,19,22
54:25 132:16
158:18 215:16
topics 27:3 52:5,9
52:13,15 53:7 54:16
55:3,11 60:23 120:3
122:10 158:17,23
177:22 209:6
215:11,24 216:1,9
217:22
townsend 134:13
213:15
track 189:3
tracking 188:19,23
tracks 65:17 66:4
trade 11:24 12:9
203:3
train 119:5,6,8,17
119:19
trainer 119:5,6,17
119:19
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[training - voting]
training 110:1,3,7
119:11,16 148:16
149:12,22,23 150:5
208:11
trainings 110:9
trane 179:20,21,22
transcribed 226:5
transcript 14:24
226:6
transcription 226:5
transfer 137:5
treated 156:14
tried 52:1 101:18
true 154:9 226:5
truly 204:23
trust 11:16
trusts 16:16
try 14:10 45:20
122:19 198:9
trying 29:22 52:1
117:22 133:8 217:4
tullie 15:23
turn 9:5 56:5 106:10
138:4 150:14,15
161:7,25 168:21
175:19 196:7
turning 56:10
two 11:8,10,19
16:22 19:20 25:22
26:4,5,13 31:14,15
72:9,12,15 73:23
75:23 76:18 79:13
81:1 83:17 84:7
85:19 87:13 120:8
120:23 125:8 126:3
129:12 130:1
140:19 141:20,21
174:9 194:17,18,22
195:5,9,10 204:17
219:23,23
type 22:24 27:16
44:3 48:6 95:15
101:7 103:1 104:4
126:2 136:21
178:23 181:6

199:14 209:7
typed 73:11
types 26:13
typical 118:18
typically 21:21 27:2
27:23 43:16 45:13
45:20 96:19 101:2
102:4 118:22 127:1
135:16 170:5,23
201:4 212:23
u
u 13:3,6
u.s. 47:20,22 148:10
ul 181:17,18
um 140:14
unbiased 147:22
underlined 126:14
163:24
understand 13:23
14:1,8,24 30:18
83:4,5 85:23 102:12
102:23 103:3,14
120:11 126:8 139:4
149:24 163:22
understanding
108:5,16 113:3
132:9 134:10,16,19
134:22 135:8,24
137:10 182:17
understands 37:23
37:24 38:1
understood 215:5
underway 119:4,16
underwrite 203:23
underwriters
181:21,22 182:1
unfair 13:4
unhappy 101:20
united 1:1 9:22
130:8,17 136:3
158:13 159:12,15
159:19 181:20
university 16:6,7

unpublished 156:5
156:16
update 188:12
196:10 220:11
updated 44:1
updates 43:25
142:24 189:13
updating 43:6
152:10
ups 36:15
urban 212:16
usage 214:8
use 46:22,23 48:17
68:5 70:8 72:15
119:1 122:18 124:7
140:21 142:6,11
158:22 188:19
198:14 208:9 214:7
221:16
useful 202:7
user 22:11 105:13
105:15,16 106:7
user's 177:2 208:10
users 88:3 197:8
uses 91:16 103:22
124:3 140:19 142:3
143:6,8
usually 29:4,22 97:6
146:13 187:21
196:5 204:14
utc 206:10
utilities 197:19
utility 22:10 106:8
v
v 9:20 133:11
valerie 196:25
vangeem 156:11
varied 25:7
varies 99:25 135:12
variety 158:17
various 49:23 99:22
153:20
ventilation 207:7

venture 103:19
182:4
venue 112:9
verbatim 171:2
172:20,21
verify 22:8 202:8
veritext 1:20 9:11
9:15 10:6
versa 114:9
version 27:22 31:4
31:14,19 33:10
36:16 56:19 65:7
69:12,13 120:22,24
121:3 133:15 142:4
142:7,12 156:18,19
168:20 198:10,11
220:12
versions 56:21
98:16 114:5 120:20
120:25 121:1
140:22 152:12
176:20,21
versus 39:1 78:22
102:11 127:6 195:8
vetted 101:17
vice 33:20 40:10,14
48:1 114:9 115:4
videographer 9:1
55:17,22 74:17,20
93:14,18 116:13,16
152:4,7 192:12,15
223:12 225:7
videotaped 1:13
viewed 125:11
views 199:17
virtue 92:24 93:5
132:4 224:9
voice 119:25
volunteer 136:20
volunteers 97:8,9,11
144:23 170:7 204:2
204:10
vote 37:12 39:18
voting 24:9 57:18
187:5
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[vp - z]
vp 182:25
vs 1:8
w
w 150:15
wait 185:18
walk 94:20
want 19:5 39:11
44:18 50:20,25
51:21 55:12 69:7
99:23 101:3,8 102:4
102:9,15,18 104:14
109:8 124:14
126:13,19 127:5,6
127:10,11 129:1
141:6 166:18
179:25
wanted 14:21 38:8
49:4 93:23 156:5
221:16
wanting 46:3
wants 32:18 101:13
149:23 210:6
washington 2:9
116:3,7 140:13
144:7,11 200:1,5
210:12,20 211:5
watching 190:8
watson 200:15
waxman 140:17
way 24:14 27:1,8
38:16 68:4 78:17
92:13 96:25 98:4,17
104:19 147:12
151:23 152:20
200:24 226:8
ways 108:19 111:17
we've 55:7 101:18
129:22,23 173:15
207:18 222:25
224:19
web 154:2
weber 8:10,12 34:1
34:17 35:8 157:20
211:24

weber's 34:5 210:10
website 24:19 88:4
88:24 91:2 153:5,9
176:21
websites 192:1,8
week 210:15
weigh 130:24
went 88:24 98:3
120:7
west 3:7 10:10 11:3
whereof 226:9
whispering 9:3
white 156:6
widespread 124:11
widget 102:9,10,13
wilcox 208:6
willing 210:17
wills 11:16 16:16
222:1,2
window 166:22
wishing 45:18
witness 4:3 9:25
10:7 13:12 23:6
28:21 30:25 31:12
31:24 32:25 33:9
46:20 49:18 50:15
51:3,22,25 60:25
61:14 66:1 67:11
70:5,20 72:8,18
74:2 77:17 78:20
79:16 88:8 92:7,12
92:19 99:21 100:11
102:1 103:5,14
104:12,21 105:2
109:2,13 113:20
117:7 118:6 120:3,5
123:11 124:21
125:7 127:11
128:16 129:22
131:14 132:22
136:9 138:23
139:18 145:14
147:2 148:20 170:9
172:4,13 173:3
176:14 178:21

179:10,19 182:8
183:20 184:2
188:25 189:17,23
190:15,24 191:6,14
191:22 192:10
193:2,7,11,22
200:13 202:20
207:13,15 208:5
209:17 210:2
211:18 213:12
214:22 215:21
217:24 220:6,22,25
222:23 223:6 226:6
226:9
word 75:3
wording 37:25 38:3
work 18:5 23:9 25:3
36:18 41:23 42:10
42:10 47:14 51:6
64:24 71:16 108:19
109:11 113:10,10
114:14 115:15,16
120:13 149:20,21
152:17 173:11,13
187:14 204:2
213:23
worked 17:6 24:12
112:25 133:22
180:8 215:6 222:1
working 17:12 18:9
18:12 20:24 43:21
95:13 108:21,24
135:14 158:23
198:8 205:19
works 26:12 36:2
52:16 53:13,18
93:12 115:19,22
145:7 146:13
152:10 164:17
187:20 193:9,19
194:6
world 99:23 126:14
126:16
worldwide 219:14

write 19:1 193:13
writes 128:8 188:14
189:9
writing 49:15 102:8
103:6
written 36:10 37:8
50:20 186:2,16
200:24
wrong 148:22
152:19 155:3
wrote 37:6
x
x 160:5 169:22
y
yeah 16:22 33:1
49:2 55:10,16 67:9
98:11 104:24
115:24 140:1
223:12
year 16:10 17:15,17
19:20 25:25 31:15
40:11,12,15,15,17
40:24 44:15 58:20
68:19 69:3,5 95:3
96:15,19 104:15
115:4,4,5 204:7
years 11:9,10,19
16:19,20 17:12,21
19:13,14 24:13 25:7
31:4,15 36:16 40:21
40:22 44:15,17,22
96:17 120:23
133:20 135:18
141:7 143:1 154:22
154:24
york 207:2,4,6,8
z
z 88:25

Page 38
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Federal Rules o f Civil Procedure
Rule 30

(e) Review By the Witness; Changes .
(1) Review; Statement of Changes . On request by the
deponent or a party before the deposition is
completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days
after being notified by the officer that the
transcript or recording is available in which :
(A)

to review the transcript or recording; and

(B) if there are changes in form or substance, to
sign a statement listing the changes and the
reasons for making them .
(2) Changes Indicated in the Officer ' s Certificate .
The officer must note in the certificate prescribed
by Rule 30(f) (1)

whether a review was requested

and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent
makes during the 30 - day period .

DISCLAIMER :

THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES

ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY .
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1,
2014 .

PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES

OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP - TO - DATE INFORMATION .